1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,280 I described it over time as almost a little bit of a 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:08,720 personal mourning period because it had been a dream of mine or 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:11,840 an idea of mine that that was going to be my career and that 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,120 was. Do you think of that experience 5 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,080 as a failure? No Fomalism. 6 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,560 And welcome to Stark Tank, the podcast for the challenges and 7 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,280 opportunities of being a mentor in the workforce. 8 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,080 This week, we sit down with Benny Merillis. 9 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,360 Benny started out as a rabbi, but after some embarrassing 10 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:31,920 mishaps, he realized it was time to change course. 11 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,640 Already close to 30, he had to reinvent himself professionally 12 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:37,560 while staying close to his values. 13 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,680 My name is Jacob Wolf, and this is starting. 14 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:53,520 Benny Miralis, welcome to starting. 15 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:55,160 Thank you so much for joining us today. 16 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:57,200 My pleasure. Thank you for having me. 17 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,320 I'm glad to be here. So you start out your career 18 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:02,880 originally as a rabbi. Can you tell us a little bit 19 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,800 more about what drove you to that path and what were your 20 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,560 early roles in that career? Yeah. 21 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,320 Well, actually I started in teaching because before there 22 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:13,800 were jobs available, let's say in the rabbinate, there were 23 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,520 more jobs available in teaching. And so as much as I wanted to go 24 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:20,240 into the rabbit, I needed to be in a position to interview for 25 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:21,840 those jobs and maybe get those jobs. 26 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,960 And so I started in teaching Judaic studies at my alma mater, 27 00:01:24,960 --> 00:01:26,760 where I went to school at Yeshiva Flavis High School. 28 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,080 And then as opportunities presented, presented themselves 29 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,280 either as senior rabbis or assistant rabbis or whatever, 30 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,960 I'd start to apply for those roles as they came up if they 31 00:01:36,960 --> 00:01:39,160 made sense for me. I had a good relationship with 32 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,040 the team at Ishib University where I'd studied in terms of 33 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:43,640 placement. And then when the right 34 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,680 opportunities would come, we would talk about perhaps 35 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:48,760 interviewing, and I started to interview for those jobs. 36 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,880 My first job in the rabbinate officially was the assistant 37 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,600 rabbi at the Indigital of Hollis Wood for Rabbi Menachem Penner. 38 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,800 I was, we were in, my wife and I were in the community Kohl out 39 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,440 there. And so we both had savrusas and 40 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:02,920 we're learning with people in the evenings. 41 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,440 And I was also the assistant rabbi in the in the shul. 42 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,840 And so I got the chance to not just time with individuals 43 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:11,600 one-on-one, but also to give Shigerman to speak and to be 44 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,480 around him, which was an opportunity towards the future 45 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:17,520 potentially if an opportunity presented itself to become an 46 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,280 act the actual senior rabbi in the shul somewhere. 47 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,200 So I was with him first for a couple of years as the assistant 48 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:24,800 rabbi. He's phenomenal. 49 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,760 So I learned a ton from being around him, and the assistant 50 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,480 rabbi position is like the best of every world. 51 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,040 You have all the opportunity to teach them to speak and none of 52 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,720 the pressure of having to answer any of the questions that are 53 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:37,840 being asked to deal with any of the situations that are being 54 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:39,600 presented. But you get to be a family on 55 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,320 the wall for a lot of those conversations. 56 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,840 Even before that when I was in yeshiva, I interned at the 57 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:48,920 Ingazol Flatbush where I grew up and the Rav there by Aaman who 58 00:02:48,920 --> 00:02:51,840 was my rabbi growing up let me into a lot of rooms that I think 59 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:56,080 a lot of 23 year olds, 22 year old guys don't necessarily get 60 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,360 into. To hear him interacting with 61 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,600 Balabhatam, to hear him interacting with the rub on him, 62 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,840 to be in the room to ask him questions as things were 63 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,160 happening and how to handle them and how he would handle them. 64 00:03:06,640 --> 00:03:09,360 So those those opportunities that what you would call 65 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,680 shemush, which was sort of apprenticeship for lack of a 66 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,480 better term in English were great. 67 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,720 And then at some point after leaving the assistant rabbi 68 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,360 roll, I, I wasn't teaching, I wasn't actually working in 69 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:23,400 finance, but I was still interviewing for a bidding 70 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,200 positions and I landed on the roll at the in gizzle of North 71 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:31,480 Woodmere, which was on some level unheard of to sort of get 72 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:35,560 a senior role in a shul in the New York area, let alone in the 73 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:37,640 Five Towns area. That was a like a good 74 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,760 opportunity. And so we moved from Holliswood, 75 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,720 which we loved, to North Woodmere, and we were in North 76 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,320 Korea for 10 years, but I wasn't in the Ravenet for 10 years. 77 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,640 So before we get to that transition out of the ravenet, 78 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,800 what were the big values that were driving you to become a 79 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,000 rabbi at this point? What was it that that called to 80 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:57,480 you from that mirror perspective? 81 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,920 What was it? Yeah, it's a good question. 82 00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:02,920 So I I think about it a lot because it still informs the 83 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:04,840 work that I do, just in a different way. 84 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:06,720 I was, I would say a couple of things. 85 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,160 One, I, I felt like I was good at the teaching and the 86 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,640 speaking, like I had sort of an ability for it and an affinity 87 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,520 for it as well. And I like the prep for it too. 88 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,279 Like just sitting and learning and working through content and 89 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:20,279 material was always interesting to me anyway. 90 00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:23,760 Making it work from beginning to end was always was always good. 91 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,480 And I just enjoyed that, that space, the interaction with an 92 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,520 audience in that way. And there weren't a lot of roles 93 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,160 or a lot of opportunities that I felt like existed in the world 94 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,560 where you had that kind of impact on people's lives 95 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:37,920 day-to-day, week to week, month to month, year to year. 96 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,440 Then the rabbinet and teaching in the classroom. 97 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,680 I did it, but it wasn't exactly the same vibe and energy for me 98 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,600 that I was looking for. And so the Rabbinet seemed like 99 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,320 a great Ave. for that dream to be fulfilled. 100 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,080 And I had, I would say on some level a little bit of a naive 101 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,720 approach to how that worked and what that would mean and what 102 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,920 you would be responsible for and that what you'd have to do. 103 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:04,440 But it just felt like the right way to go about having long term 104 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,840 large impact on the world and on a lot of people's lives. 105 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:10,880 Can I ask you to maybe drill down a little bit more on the 106 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,440 distinction between the rabbinate and teaching children 107 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:15,360 in the school system and the education system? 108 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:17,840 Because I think it's saying that a lot of people, myself 109 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:19,680 included, thinking about a lot, which is that there's obviously 110 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:21,920 a lot of parallels, a lot of overlap, but also some big 111 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:23,960 differences. And some people could make the 112 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,200 case that the bigger impacts to had by teaching kids who are 113 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,640 more impressionable and at the age where they're really forming 114 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:31,680 their identity. So can you try to unpack that a 115 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,560 little bit more? Yeah, I never really wanted to 116 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:36,880 be in a classroom. So like I ended up in a 117 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,520 classroom because I needed professionally to have an 118 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,200 opportunity to work and to get paid and to make a living. 119 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,480 And if I wanted to end up in the Raven, that seemed like the 120 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,960 right Ave. to go. I also was, I felt pretty good 121 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:48,520 at it, so it made a lot of sense. 122 00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:52,840 But the classroom for me as a student, as a kid was not 123 00:05:52,840 --> 00:05:54,920 something I enjoyed. It just felt like it was very 124 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:59,440 strict and very formal, and then I felt like teaching was also 125 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,560 more formal than I wanted from a structure in terms of the way I 126 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,800 wanted to have impact on people. I wanted it to be a little bit 127 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:09,280 more free flowing and informal. I wanted it to be a little bit 128 00:06:09,280 --> 00:06:12,640 wider than just content focused. At least that's how I understood 129 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,560 and how I thought about it. And in the context of community, 130 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,040 felt like you're involved in way more than just teaching 131 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:19,240 material. You're involved in the 132 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,880 day-to-day of their lives. There's the this I would call 133 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,480 the spiritual side of it as opposed to the context side of 134 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,120 it and the material side of it. And so you're in every part of 135 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,240 their being from the moment that maybe they have a child to the 136 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,400 moment that they're going through something that's really 137 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,000 difficult in their lives. And you're also getting the 138 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,440 chance to teach and to speak. I felt like it covered more 139 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:40,960 areas of ground. Then there was the communal 140 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,640 environment where you're dealing with other maybe other 141 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,400 synagogues and other ribundum or other faith communities or the 142 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,440 larger world. And I didn't think that I could 143 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,400 get that in the classroom. And so they just felt very 144 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:58,200 different for me as places of opportunity and work and the 145 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,480 rabbit. It seemed more like the one. 146 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:01,640 I would say. The other thing is there was an 147 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,840 influence to some degree as well from having studied and learned 148 00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:08,480 at Yoshi University very much. I felt like at Reit's, which is 149 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,440 the rabbinical college there, that there was an emphasis back 150 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:17,640 then, which is 25 years ago on the rabbit over teaching. 151 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,120 Not that they didn't have people becoming teachers, but the, what 152 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,120 they talked about and what they focused on and who they 153 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,520 highlighted and who ended up speaking at the Hayagas. 154 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,880 Mika, let's say as an example, we're abundant guys in in the 155 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,480 field, guys in small communities, guys out of, you 156 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:32,760 know, out of New York and the wider world. 157 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,160 And that's who they highlighted. And some degree I wanted to be 158 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,200 that, even though I probably had no right or reason to think that 159 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:40,320 way. I'll give you just a great 160 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,480 example. I sat once with every lamb, and 161 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,240 every lamb is a cousin of my father. 162 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:48,280 And so he and I had a chance once in a while to sit and talk 163 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,040 about stuff. And he asked me once, you know 164 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,000 what's on your mind? And I said, I'm having trouble 165 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:56,960 choosing between the rabbit and teaching, and I don't know which 166 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:58,760 way to go. And he said, why do you have to 167 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:00,480 choose? Let it choose itself. 168 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,280 And I thought I never, I didn't know that that was an option to 169 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,880 let it choose itself. And it just, it became apparent 170 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,760 to me over time that even though in truth, I spent many more 171 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,400 years in the classroom than I did in the rabbit, that that 172 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,480 where my interest lay was actually there. 173 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,080 Amazing. So you ended up getting this 174 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,200 amazing role for someone your age and in the, you know, the 175 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,080 five towns, a rabbit, your own Shoal and you'll leave it to the 176 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,640 fact before that it didn't really work out, maybe the way 177 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,640 you dreamed or didn't last the whole tenor. 178 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:32,600 So what happened there? What was the breakdown and why 179 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,440 didn't it work out? It was hard. 180 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,880 It was really hard, much harder than I thought it would be, 181 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,679 transitioning from the assistant rabbi roll to the rabbi roll. 182 00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:44,640 I don't think I was as well prepared for it as I thought I 183 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,280 would. I was, there were, I would say, 184 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,640 some mechanics and some things that going on in the community 185 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,840 itself that I simply wasn't as well attuned to that maybe a 186 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,080 more senior veteran rap I might have been attuned to at that 187 00:08:58,080 --> 00:08:59,600 point. I think it was 28 years old at 188 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:01,320 the time. And so there's a, there's an 189 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,880 experience level that I think is really important that I just 190 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:05,600 didn't have. But more than anything else, it 191 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,680 just didn't work. I what didn't work for our 192 00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:11,920 family, my wife was working full time as a lawyer and we had two 193 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,880 little kids at the time we moved and I was teaching full time in 194 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,640 this in a local high school and I was a little bit working in 195 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:20,800 finance at this. I had like 3 jobs at some point 196 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,280 in the course of it and I couldn't juggle them. 197 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,880 And those were hard. And then the truth is I wasn't 198 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,720 good at it, which hard to admit out loud, but I've said this 199 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:31,720 many times to a lot of rabbis over the years. 200 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,560 There was just certain aspects of it that are really important 201 00:09:34,560 --> 00:09:37,640 to it that I really wasn't particularly good at then that 202 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:42,120 maybe now closing on A50, I might be better at than I was at 203 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,120 28 or 29. And at some point, you have to 204 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,360 be really honest with yourself and say, this is not working. 205 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,360 This is not working for me. This is not working for the 206 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,480 community. It's and then besides the 207 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,200 community, it's just not working for our family. 208 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,720 And you have to prioritize and, and choose. 209 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,160 I think in those spaces. And for me, there was no, it 210 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,440 wasn't even a choice. I'm going to choose family and 211 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:07,040 I'm going to choose me over staying in a role in a position 212 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:08,960 and then figure it out and try to figure out what that's going 213 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:10,480 to be and whatever role that's going to be. 214 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,200 And so just to give you an example, like I always had sort 215 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,920 of viewed the rabbit from the standpoint of teaching and 216 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,800 speaking. Those were my areas of interest 217 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:21,240 and those were my areas of focus. 218 00:10:21,560 --> 00:10:25,320 The empathy part being the really compassionate human 219 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,920 person who embodies the spiritual for or is, you know, 220 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:33,520 that person who embodies Torah for a member of your community 221 00:10:33,680 --> 00:10:36,560 in those spaces, in those moments, I was really not good 222 00:10:36,560 --> 00:10:37,640 at. I don't know that I hadn't 223 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,960 prepared for it. I just, I just, it wasn't great. 224 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,160 So an example, there was a member of the shul was a distant 225 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,360 member of the shul. So she didn't come on a regular 226 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:47,600 basis. I didn't really know her 227 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,560 particularly well. And she lost a parent. 228 00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:52,680 She's like an older member of the community and she lost a 229 00:10:52,680 --> 00:10:55,560 parent. And I, I had no connection with 230 00:10:55,560 --> 00:10:57,640 her per SE. And I just admittedly, I simply 231 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,680 forgot about the Shiva. It was horrible. 232 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,040 You know, afterwards she called me out on it and I apologize 233 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,320 profusely. And then I called her Aryam 234 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,280 Kippur to apologize again. And I asked for Mehila. 235 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,720 But like, that's a like a sign. I feel like, you know, Hey, man, 236 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,640 you're, you're not paying attention here the way you need 237 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,560 to. And you have to get honest with 238 00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:21,880 yourself. Either you're going to burn out, 239 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:23,600 you're going to flame out, you're going to destroy your 240 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,200 family. Or the harder part of it maybe 241 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:28,800 is you figure it all out and you get it together and you're able 242 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,880 to do all those things. And that was not going to be me. 243 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,760 So I had to shift gears and I shifted, excuse me? 244 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:39,000 It shifted into organizational work at that point because they 245 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,560 still wanted to stay in what I would call holy work, right? 246 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:44,600 But I didn't want to work on Chavez anymore. 247 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,000 And the way to do that, I felt it was an organizational work. 248 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:52,680 So it shifted from teaching and the rabbit into organizational. 249 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:55,640 So approximately how long was this? 250 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:57,800 Do you hold that position in North Widmere and when did you 251 00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:59,080 like? What was the time frame? 252 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:01,360 Yeah. So I was there. 253 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:03,120 I was the rabbi of the shul for three years. 254 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,960 I think it was O4 to O7. It was probably the years that I 255 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,880 did it maybe there like straddled into O 8. 256 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,200 And then before that I had been the assistant Robin Hollisford 257 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,840 for for a few years as well. Same idea in the terms of the 258 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:21,720 time frame. And then I moved on in 2007, 259 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,200 2008, I moved into organization. Got it. 260 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,320 When you're talking about transitioning out of the rabbit, 261 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,720 leaving that role. So there's a lot to that and you 262 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:30,560 obviously had a lot of good reasons to do so. 263 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,440 But I'm curious about the identity factor. 264 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,040 You know, when you are the rabbit of a Shoal, you have a 265 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,880 very clear identity as as a rug, and that forces you to behave a 266 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,160 certain way and to act a certain way, dress a certain way, and 267 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:43,040 you're leaving that. So you're leaving that identity 268 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:44,640 behind as well. Was that staying hard for you? 269 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,680 How do you manage that? Yeah, I, I described it over 270 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:52,640 time as almost a little bit of a personal mourning period because 271 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:56,600 it had been a dream of mine or an idea of mine that that was 272 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,920 going to be my career and that wasn't. 273 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:04,480 And so you go through this period of change, figuring out 274 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:06,280 now, OK, now who am I? And when you talk about a 275 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,480 person's identity, I talked about this with a lot of other 276 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,280 people as well, a lot of professionals too. 277 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:12,920 You sort of have, I would say three, maybe 3 or 4 different 278 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,080 spaces in which your identity is defined. 279 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,280 There is your home life, you know, there's your communal 280 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:19,720 life, there's your professional life. 281 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,160 And if one of those things is pulled from you, then a good 282 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,840 portion of your identity on some level goes away. 283 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,040 And that's really hard. And when it's a public space 284 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,360 like that is, it's even harder. And, and another level of it, we 285 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:34,960 stayed in the community. So I didn't, I left this, I left 286 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,680 the role, but for a year, the shul didn't have a rabbi and so 287 00:13:38,680 --> 00:13:42,760 I stayed on in some unofficial capacity with them. 288 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,200 So certain simplest came along and I officiated at a simpla or 289 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,200 there was a funeral and I officiated a funeral. 290 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,440 I spoke a couple of times and I even stayed in Davin there. 291 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:53,800 But imagine I was no longer sitting in the rabbi's chair, 292 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,480 was sitting in one of the rows in the shul, and that was 293 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:57,960 exceptionally hard. And so we stayed in the 294 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,040 community for another seven years after I left the shul. 295 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,920 And the rub that they hired after me, phenomenal. 296 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,680 Stayed for 15 years. It's amazing, amazing, amazing. 297 00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:09,400 You really right for the role where I was really not right for 298 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,200 that role. Who was that would be a good 299 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,520 acceptimist. Terrific rabbi, terrific, 300 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:16,080 terrific rabbi. And he and I had a great 301 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,640 relationship, still do. And so so you're mourning that 302 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:21,520 to some degree and you have to figure out where what that's 303 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:22,960 going to. What does that mean? 304 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,520 Like what's it going to be now? And I would say some of it stays 305 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,240 with you because I think certain certain ways which you handle 306 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,360 yourself and certain ways in which you hear and show up and 307 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,120 events now even or when you're actually still giving a talk or 308 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,320 giving a sheer, whatever it is that still comes with you, that 309 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,840 doesn't leave you. I think maybe it's glossed over 310 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,160 or it's covered over in dust at some point because you're not 311 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,840 doing it as much. But when you when you shake off 312 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,360 the dust and you and you and you Polish it a layer and so you 313 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:53,000 have to on some level reimagine yourself or re identify yourself 314 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:54,760 for what that next thing is going to be. 315 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:56,760 And you can't force it. I think you have to let it sort 316 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,640 of play itself out. And over time, I realized that 317 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,680 the larger thing that I was interested in was impact. 318 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,040 And there was less about ultimately the role. 319 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:09,320 I had to convince myself by that, I think initially, but 320 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,880 also come to appreciate and realize that that was true, that 321 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,400 I was much more interested in having as wide and as large and 322 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,000 significant and as meaningful an impact as I could possibly have. 323 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,080 And that could be in the rapid it and that could be in 324 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:25,640 something else entirely. And you know, I think that's, 325 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,480 that's where I'm at now. And do you think of that 326 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:33,240 experience as a failure? No, I think if you simply look 327 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,000 at that inside the prism of those few years, they might look 328 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,520 at it as a failure. But nothing exists inside the 329 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,560 prism of those few years. It's part of the longer journey. 330 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,680 I mean, it's a much, much bigger picture and a much, much longer 331 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,360 story. And if I had stopped at 31 when 332 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,400 it was over, maybe I would think that. 333 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,280 But I learned a ton from being there. 334 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,280 And to me, that ultimately was the biggest thing learned to 335 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:58,600 talk about. I learned just a lot about 336 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:00,840 myself. I learned a lot about family. 337 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,080 I learned about my priorities, and I learned about just sort of 338 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:05,800 handle these kinds of situations. 339 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,120 And the organization work that I moved into at the time was 340 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,960 synagogue related, shul related, and then national related. 341 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,240 And so handling myself in those kinds of rooms and larger rooms 342 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,440 with, you know, bigger players and more impactful figures, I 343 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,120 was still, I was prepared for because I had been the guy in 344 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,400 the suit and had been in those rooms and had to learn how to 345 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,240 control emotion and how to handle just the energy of a 346 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,600 situation. And so no, I'm still benefiting 347 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,720 from it. The network, I mean, just as 348 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,960 another aspect of it, the network of people who I 349 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,800 connected with in the rabbinet, especially there because you're 350 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,760 living in a very large Jewish community. 351 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,840 And even though it was the rabbi of a smaller synagogue, it's a 352 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:51,960 large Jewish community. And so you got around to a lot 353 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,080 of people and a lot of different rabbis, a lot of different 354 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,720 shules and organizations within the community. 355 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,640 And so you got to meet and know and grow with a lot of people. 356 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,040 And those people stay with you because you did stuff for them. 357 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,800 They did stuff for you. And so, no, it felt like a 358 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,800 failure at the time. And while it was mourning it, it 359 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:09,880 was a failure. But I think over the long term, 360 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,160 I'm so much better off as a person for that not having gone 361 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:14,560 well. I always talk about the, I talk 362 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:16,599 about this with coaching clients, the blessing of the 363 00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:18,280 thing that didn't happen for you. 364 00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:21,920 And you sometimes have this idea that a certain role or a certain 365 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,599 thing is the thing you absolutely have to have. 366 00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:26,160 If you don't get it, it's a failure. 367 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,880 And then you realize that not having that or not getting that 368 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:33,480 is actually the blessing. And to me, that not working was 369 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,360 a massive blessing because of where I am now and what I do now 370 00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:40,240 and where I live now and my family and their happiness. 371 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,360 And so no, absolutely. OK. 372 00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:46,000 So you made reference to the fact that you transitioned to 373 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:47,640 organizational work. Can you give us a little more 374 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,360 specifics, more details about what your next move was after 375 00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:52,600 you realize that your dream of being a Shoal rabbi was not 376 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,440 going to be long term? Yeah, you say that and it hurts 377 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,960 still, OK. But yeah, so I at the time, 378 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,080 because of the network that I had and the friends that I had 379 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,320 in a lot of different places, organizational work and 380 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,760 community, community work. So when I made it known to some 381 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,360 friends that I was looking to to move to a different, just a 382 00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:12,800 different vertical in this in in communal work, you know, sort of 383 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:14,360 the feel is we're out for opportunities. 384 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:16,080 And I ended up at the Orthodox Union. 385 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,040 You know, the OU was looking to revamp and rebuild their 386 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,840 synagogue services, a program. This is why it was a benefit 387 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,240 having served as a community rabbi for a number of years, 388 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,520 having gotten around to speak and to lecture and to talk on a 389 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,760 lot of different subjects and having built some programs for 390 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,160 the shul and having done some a little bit of fundraising in the 391 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,600 shul. At the time, that role as 392 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:41,400 leading this new revised program at the OU, which the Synaptic 393 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,120 Services team, which had sort of been gone dormant for a period 394 00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:45,960 of time, was the right opportunity for me. 395 00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:50,080 And so, and the expectation level and the build level was 396 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,280 such that, OK, we're restarting this so we can appreciate that 397 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,600 year one's going to be X and year 2's going to be Y, and it's 398 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,200 going to take time to get there. And so it was just the right 399 00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:01,560 role. So I ended up at the OU for for 400 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:07,160 three years and then I bounced a little bit, a little bit back 401 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,360 into Hinof for a short period of time. 402 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:14,440 And then I ended up at National Council of Young Israel where I 403 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,840 played the role of the associate executive Vice president. 404 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,680 And so I was coming into the other large Orthodox synagogue 405 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,280 organization in a very senior role at a very young age, 406 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,520 meeting with a lot of top great people at the world's best 407 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,600 Jewish organizations. And I got to hang out with them 408 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,720 and be in the room with them. And it felt like I had peered 409 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,080 inside, you know, the great halls of Jewish communal 410 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,920 leadership. And I was allowed to be there. 411 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:49,000 And I got to just learn and see and talk and ask questions of 412 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,480 the best that there was in Jewish communal life and to see 413 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,000 what could be and what was, you know, the opportunity and what 414 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:56,160 was where I was going to go next. 415 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:58,200 And so I was there for a couple of years as well. 416 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,320 And I moved on from there. It just, and it, it sort of 417 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,560 rolled until we ended up here in Israel. 418 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,840 And so things shifted during that time, but that's where that 419 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,120 was the trajectory was Jewish communal life, Jewish communal 420 00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:11,440 leadership from the organizational standpoint as 421 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,520 opposed to the educational or the synagogue. 422 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:16,200 Right. I mean, another way to to think 423 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,480 about it and to frame it, as you've been mentioning before, 424 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,720 is that you started out as a rabbi, but you also had this 425 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,360 finance role and experience. And so maybe the two tracks of 426 00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:27,880 one being someone who wants to make an impact and inspire and 427 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,320 be a source of holiness and help to the Jewish community on the 428 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:32,720 one hand. On the other hand, there's the 429 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,000 level of the business skills, the management, the leadership, 430 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,760 all of those things. So did you think of that latter 431 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,720 category as a just a means to the ends of making an impact or 432 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,320 was something more about your personality, your skills, your 433 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,200 passions that really wanted to express those sort of a more 434 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,160 secular business minded skill sets? 435 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,680 Yeah, I always liked business. I just, I just wasn't working in 436 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,120 it, let's say and, and I didn't see myself being able to work in 437 00:20:56,120 --> 00:20:58,200 it on a consistent day-to-day basis. 438 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,320 And even though I had, I had when, when I, when I left 439 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:02,560 teaching and I was working in finance. 440 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,880 So I was working, I was working at IDT in, in Newark, NJ at the 441 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,320 time and I was on a very small team in the finance group and I 442 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,240 liked it. But like there was some sort of 443 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,240 nagging vibe that something was missing. 444 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:15,840 But I liked it. I liked the business. 445 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,440 I like the interaction, I like the people, I like the thinking 446 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,960 and the numbers are always interesting to me on some level. 447 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,480 Even when I was in the rabbit and I would ask about, you know, 448 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,240 the shules finances, that was like crossing the line a little 449 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,200 bit. But I was, I was always curious 450 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,080 about how we were doing financially and it's always 451 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,040 interesting to me. But it didn't come out per SE 452 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,280 until I moved into more of a space of the fundraising world 453 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,120 and really appreciated what it takes and what it was necessary 454 00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:40,200 for things to actually happen in the world. 455 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,800 I had LED teams at the OUI, built A-Team at the OUI, had LED 456 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,720 the team at National Council. I had a small team when I was at 457 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,760 Shiba Chalavima as the fundraiser and I had a small 458 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,680 team when I moved into into Tech in the coaching. 459 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,040 So that leadership piece was always sort of something around 460 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:58,920 me. And so it was interesting to me. 461 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:03,280 It's still something that I talk about, think about, you know, on 462 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,600 a week to week basis basically at this point. 463 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,600 And so they were all interesting to me all the time. 464 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,360 They just didn't know how they all fit together. 465 00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:13,240 They didn't always seem like they fit together. 466 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,640 They really felt like they were two disparate parts of my being. 467 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,480 The ability to find a way to make those things unite in some 468 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,040 way and to get sort of a congruence between all the 469 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,120 different aspects of myself made life much, much easier. 470 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:31,080 And so that happened only years, years later, but it was, that's 471 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,320 how I sort of thought I was like, OK, so I'm interested. 472 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,320 And so when I talk to people at a shop this table, I can ask 473 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,920 some good questions and it's interesting to me and it's real. 474 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,560 But at the same time, like that's not what I do on a 475 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,800 day-to-day basis and I'm happy not doing that on a day-to-day 476 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,640 basis. Right. 477 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,640 It's interesting because a lot of people listening to this 478 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,520 podcast, a lot of Benito, so there are, there is a maybe I 479 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,880 think a smaller minority group who they'll say the only thing I 480 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:55,800 care about, the only thing I want to do is to learn and to 481 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,360 teach and to be a rabbi and, and nothing else matters to me. 482 00:22:58,360 --> 00:22:59,680 I don't care about any of these other things. 483 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:01,880 But a lot of people, they do have an interest, a love, a 484 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,360 passion, connection to the world's of business, the world's 485 00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:08,760 of finance, the world's of marketing, all these things for 486 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,400 those people. So to find sort of role like you 487 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,600 have in the Jewish organizational role could be a 488 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,520 really perfect synergy of combining those two aspects of 489 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,680 their life. So who should or shouldn't be 490 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,720 thinking about such a move? Who Who is going to do well and 491 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:22,880 such a role? Who's not going to do well? 492 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,400 Yeah. So I would just on your point, 493 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,440 just to add on to that, I, I think you're right. 494 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:32,720 And it's hard to, for some to find the Sepa con nephesh in 495 00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:35,680 quote, UN quote, just being in finance or just being a lawyer 496 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,040 or just being in tech or whatever. 497 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,520 That is because they want to be learning and they have to learn 498 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,200 how to, to balance that. Remember for years when I was 499 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,920 working at Shala Vim as the fundraiser, So one of their 500 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,560 band, the Revyomer talked a lot about the idea, what he called 501 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,640 the broad life, the idea that all those things fit in some way 502 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,080 into, into Torah. And you have to figure out how 503 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:59,080 they fit in and how you can make those things feel right for you 504 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,400 as opposed to feeling uncomfortable every day of your 505 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,840 life when you go to work, when you want to be ready and Yoshif 506 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:05,480 or whatever that is, you have to find any. 507 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,440 And I have this conversation a lot with rabbis and Mahankin who 508 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,840 are looking to make aliyah to figure out how they're going to 509 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,160 make it work financially here. And maybe that's not going to be 510 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,400 their, their focus. And how do they work through 511 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,640 that, that problem or that struggle to be able to make that 512 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:23,920 balance work. And I think what I, what I think 513 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,920 with, with people, younger people in that space is they 514 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,920 really have to be honest with what they're going to be OK with 515 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,200 and where they're going to thrive as human beings. 516 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,000 And so I have some really good friends who are, you know, 517 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:41,400 they're business guys and their, I mean, their paradigms and 518 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,640 paragons of excellence in every aspect of their lives. 519 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,360 And worst case scenario that a person should live their life to 520 00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:52,200 be like that kind of a person who learns and is, you know, is 521 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,800 always involved in the community and is doing mitzvos all the 522 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,840 time and, and, and loves life and loves Torin, loves the 523 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,280 cutters Baraku. And at the same time they work, 524 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,520 you know, 12/14/16 hours a day in law and finance and real 525 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:04,760 estate and all these other things. 526 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,360 And they think there's a, there's, there's just that long 527 00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:10,840 struggle with yourself to figure out how that works. 528 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,760 And at the same time you're paying attention to, OK, what, 529 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,960 what am I good at? And what is interesting to me? 530 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,640 And what do I want to spend some time focusing on? 531 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,240 And obviously knowing that you're not, you don't know now 532 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,120 what you're going to know in five years from now about it. 533 00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:27,920 And so there's a process and the progression that you're going to 534 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,160 get to over time. But I think that piece of it 535 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,960 also is hard for people is, is to pay attention, to really pay 536 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,200 attention to themselves as to what what they're doing, what 537 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,400 they're focused on that's best for them. 538 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,360 That's not best for somebody else who's trying to live 539 00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:45,240 vicariously through them. And to give you an example on 540 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,200 that, when I was the rabbi in the Shield, there was a family 541 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,880 there that had a son who went to yeshiva and he wanted to just 542 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,000 sit and learn for a little while. 543 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,560 And the parents were adamantly, vehemently opposed. 544 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,120 And this was one of the moments that I wasn't a great rabbinic 545 00:25:58,120 --> 00:25:59,400 moment, but it really worked out for them. 546 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,760 And I had a conversation with them and I said, the reason you 547 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,840 don't want to sit and learn is because of him, because of you. 548 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,480 And no parent wants to hear that from anybody, let alone their 549 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,080 rabbi. And, and, but it was, it was. 550 00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:17,000 And I, I often struggle with having the nuanced conversation, 551 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,440 which I'm better at with coaching now. 552 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,640 But, and they realized that it was them, not him, that for him, 553 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,680 this was the best thing. For them, this was not. 554 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,640 But those two things are not the same thing. 555 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,960 And they're all very happy together now as a family. 556 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,760 But like, this was what was right for him. 557 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,200 So let's, and for ourselves, we have to think about what's right 558 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,040 for us. And yes, sometimes it doesn't 559 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:38,400 work. You have to do with something 560 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:39,960 you don't want to do. You take a job you don't want to 561 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,680 take because it pays the bills. And yes, but it's always hard 562 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:48,520 because you're in flux or you're uncomfortable at every moment in 563 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,960 the work. And sometimes you know why and 564 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,480 sometimes you don't. And that, I think, is really 565 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,040 important for anyone in any field to figure out what that's 566 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,000 going to be. Got it. 567 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,440 And as far as the life in the Jewish organizations and how 568 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:02,760 that works out. So what are your summer 569 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,240 takeaways as to who would be a good fit for those type of roles 570 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:07,040 and who is not a good? Fit. 571 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,800 It's a really good question. It's funny because I, I, as I 572 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,400 said, I didn't end up in it like I would say organically or 573 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,920 naturally in the sense that I wasn't like my target from the 574 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,480 beginning. I know one or two guys who from 575 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,880 the start in their time sitting and learning, we're going to be 576 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,280 organizational guys. But it was like unheard of at 577 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,280 the time that a person would go and be, you know, sit and learn 578 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,280 for five years, get SMIFA and then not be a teacher and not be 579 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,160 a Rev, but go into organizational work. 580 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,640 And now it's more, it's more of that. 581 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,800 And I, and I think that that's part of that is earlier on, if 582 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,640 you're able to identify where your strengths lie and where 583 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,360 your weaknesses lie, what you're OK with, what you're willing to 584 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:47,960 work through. It's not different than anything 585 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,360 else that I think a person is going through where they're 586 00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:53,320 putting their time and their efforts into something new that 587 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:54,760 you're trying to study and to learn. 588 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:57,880 You know, is it interesting to me? 589 00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,240 Is this something that I want to pursue? 590 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,040 Is this, you know, am I over my skis here? 591 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,760 And this is too far afield for me and I don't get it. 592 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,120 And the ability to learn some of those things early and figure 593 00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:11,560 that stuff out early, A, saves you a lot of pain later on, and 594 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,160 B, gets you on a path that's better. 595 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,520 There was a friend of mine in yeshiva who spent a year as the 596 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,800 assistant rabbi in shul in New York City and after like 3 597 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,680 months realized this isn't for me. 598 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,520 And so before he had finished Smith up, he had already known 599 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,360 that he was shifting gears. And I think he saved himself 600 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:33,800 years of heartache and pain and difficulty and stress and 601 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,520 struggle, which I'm not saying I needed to avoid, but in his 602 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,000 case, he definitely needed to and wanted to desperately avoid 603 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:41,520 it. And he is a very successful 604 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,880 human being and did not have to go through that and didn't want 605 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,520 to go through that. And I, I jokingly used to tell 606 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,440 someone at UC University, like, if you have a guy who's on the 607 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:55,080 fence about his career in terms of the rabbinate versus 608 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,000 education versus organization, send in my way. 609 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,320 I said, because we'll have that really, let's have a really 610 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,280 honest, open conversation about all the things that no one else 611 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,720 wants to say to you and ask you. And that's why for me, coaching 612 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,560 works as a professional standpoint because I ask a lot 613 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,080 of the questions that nobody else wants to ask that make 614 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,400 rooms incredibly uncomfortable, but get out the answers and the 615 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,160 conversations that need to have happen. 616 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,760 I've done that with guys and who either were looking at a 617 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,600 different aspect in the in communal work and whatever work 618 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,560 that was going to be. I had the conversation with 619 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,240 people about making a Lia in terms of and then ultimately 620 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:32,800 deciding maybe now is not the time. 621 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,800 I even had it when I was at one of the organizations with a shul 622 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:38,280 that was considering going Orthodox. 623 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:39,760 It's a crazy story. Years ago. 624 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,720 This is a shul that was in flux somewhere in the Northeast. 625 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,680 They weren't sure what to do it themselves, what direction to go 626 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,280 in. They realized that 627 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,320 strategically, from a real estate standpoint, they were in 628 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,320 a good place. It was affordable to live there. 629 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,800 They were close enough to enough kosher amenities, whatever they 630 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,760 needed for religious people. They were considering going 631 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,720 Orthodox. And someone sent me to them to 632 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:03,480 have a conversation. I had a conversation with the 633 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,360 entire shul, everybody in the everyone. 634 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,680 And I asked them some really hard questions about what they, 635 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,680 why they wanted to do that, what that would mean. 636 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,640 And then to play it forward, like what does it mean in five 637 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,160 years from now for you? What does it look like? 638 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,040 Play this out for me 5 years from now. 639 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,280 What is your Shabbat morning look like in this shul when you 640 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:23,720 go Orthodox, right, as an example? 641 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,680 And they did that and they realized they didn't want to do 642 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,960 it. They didn't like, from their 643 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,840 perspective, they didn't like how that image looked and what 644 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,080 that would mean for them and how that would make them feel inside 645 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,080 their own community after building this place for 50-60, a 646 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,240 hundred years. And they didn't do it. 647 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,440 But it's because they had a really hard, honest, open 648 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:49,240 conversation that was not naive, that was uncovering the muck and 649 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,840 the dirt and the difficult. And those are the best 650 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:56,040 conversations to have out front. And I do that now on a 651 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,080 consistent basis and go to. So I do want to hear a little 652 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,640 more about your coaching, but before we get to that chapter, I 653 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,320 wanted to ask you one more question about one of the very 654 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,560 interesting roles that you've held in this organizational 655 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,480 phase of your life or, or part of your life, which is Cosmatch, 656 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,760 which is a obviously these platforms are quite ubiquitous. 657 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,560 And maybe we're even seeing signs that that people have a 658 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,320 little bit, you know, trying to maybe there's even a shift past 659 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,640 that because it's maybe already getting to be too much. 660 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,080 But maybe just tell us about your role in building Cosmatch. 661 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,120 At what point did you did you come on and and how did that, 662 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:27,560 how did that develop? Yeah. 663 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,840 So cost match for people who are not paying attention necessarily 664 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,680 in the Jewish community perhaps is an online fundraising 665 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,280 platform that helps organization raise more money using tech and 666 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,600 using smarts around how to raise money, particularly in what's 667 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:42,760 called peer-to-peer, which is getting people on board to help 668 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,640 raise money to widen the network of the audience of the 669 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,200 organization in terms of potential supporters. 670 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,080 And I joined the company at a fairly early stage. 671 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,360 I think I was maybe employ 10 or 11. 672 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,840 We were around, we sat around one table in the building and 673 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,240 mass challenge in Jerusalem. And I joined after having been 674 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,800 at a couple of organizations here already. 675 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,520 And it felt like I was on a hamster wheel that I was going 676 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:07,920 to be an executive director at 1:00 and then an executor at 677 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,400 another and then another. And it was never going to end. 678 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:11,520 And I was I was going to be miserable. 679 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,520 I needed to stop and say like enough. 680 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,400 And but like, how do you transition out of the nonprofit 681 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,720 world or the organizational world at that stage of your 682 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,680 life? And so I started to interview 683 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,440 for business opportunities, for profit opportunities. 684 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,640 I was trying to spin my resume to have it make sense to people 685 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,600 in specific roles. And I found that I had already 686 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,640 been pigeonholed into a specific box. 687 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,200 And like how you get out of that and one friends with you goes, 688 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,120 you just need one job, one job that gets you out and gets you 689 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,160 across. And so at the time, I had a 690 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,720 friend who was going to cause match in this role. 691 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,600 And he said to me, come with me to cause match. 692 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,320 I'm like, in what capacity? He's like, I need someone to 693 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,000 play the role of coach and like, I don't even know what that what 694 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,360 did that even mean? Like I didn't even know what 695 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:56,880 that meant at the time. The term didn't. 696 00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,320 The only coaches I had known were sports coaches, right? 697 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,120 People who had like play head coached or I had coached or 698 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,000 whatever it was. I coached Little League in 699 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,400 America. I had, you know, I had coached 700 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,640 like something else, but like I didn't know what a coach was. 701 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:11,680 And so I was like, OK, I don't know how to do this, but let me 702 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,520 look at the job description. Like the job description. 703 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,880 I met with leadership and I came in as a coach on the team. 704 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,480 My role was was like sort of a perfect role. 705 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,840 It was my role was to explain the technology to leadership at 706 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,080 organizations and help them through the process of using 707 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:31,000 these kinds of tools to be able to raise more money for their 708 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,440 organizations. There was a, at the time, a lot 709 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,200 of hesitancy and there was a lot of discomfort around tech, let 710 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,360 alone this kind of tech and their fundraising. 711 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,600 They knew what they knew, they knew how to do it, and this was 712 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,800 completely different. And so having a person who lived 713 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,080 in the space between the tech and the organization, which is 714 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,800 where I lived in the coaching space at the time, was really 715 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,120 meaningful to people because I would walk into a room or onto a 716 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,720 Zoom or a conversation and they felt OK. 717 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,680 This guy had been in the rabbit and he had been in education, he 718 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,880 had been in fundraising. He had done the one on ones, he 719 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:03,920 had done the events, he had done capital, he had done 720 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,400 operational. He knows us and we know him. 721 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:08,760 And so that conversation was not. 722 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,159 So there was a comfort level there right away. 723 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,440 And so for 4 1/2 years, I was at the company and I started as a 724 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:17,000 coach. There was no coaching team. 725 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,080 I was a coach and then I became the head of coaching in the team 726 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,920 and then I started to write curriculum at the company for 727 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:24,719 outside people who are learning how to coach. 728 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,840 And so I coached coaches and I coached organizations. 729 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,159 And in the course of four and a half years, on some level it 730 00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:32,560 shifted for me professionally. I wasn't like paying attention 731 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,840 to it, let's say. Now I can't say that viewed as a 732 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,560 nonprofit guy, let's say, because it's point, I'm not 733 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,080 independent and I work for myself and have clients in the 734 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,199 nonprofit space, but I have my own sort of niche that I'm 735 00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:46,800 working on. And so I spent 4 1/2 years 736 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,120 there. I worked on I think 200 or so 737 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,679 campaigns for organizations over the 4 1/2 years and you know, it 738 00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:55,560 was in the neighborhood of like $50 million between those 739 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,120 campaigns and organizations, all walks of life, all places around 740 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:04,360 the world, multiple languages, and really helping to make that 741 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,240 process work for a lot of people. 742 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,240 And it's still a real source of pride for me when I see 743 00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:11,960 organizations still using the technology, we're using my 744 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,120 terminology and language to help them succeed because it means 745 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,920 it's still sort of paying itself forward on some level. 746 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,040 The term I use is compounded impact. 747 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,120 The impact is still there and it's still growing, even though 748 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,360 I'm no longer directly involved in and on a day-to-day base. 749 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,480 But you did mention that now your main focus is on coaching. 750 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,240 And you also mentioned that, you know, originally you thought 751 00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:35,800 coaching was for the local football team or baseball team. 752 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,680 And now we seem to come to a place where coaching is almost, 753 00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:41,080 I don't know, it's gotten pretty cheap. 754 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,600 Like you see almost anybody who can call themselves a coach 755 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,320 these days. So how do you think about that 756 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,160 dynamic? Who should or shouldn't be a 757 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,240 coach? What type of problems should 758 00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:52,640 people be approaching coaches for and not be approaching 759 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:54,360 coaches for? So what's your take on that 760 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,120 landscape? Yeah, it's a it's a great 761 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:57,600 question. And the truth is, yeah, there's 762 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,880 no formal official thing that you need to call yourself a 763 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,680 coach. It's at this time, unless you 764 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,480 really want to study to know it. The the best coach who I've ever 765 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,120 read about is a gentleman named Bill Johnson, who was known as 766 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,160 the trillion dollar coach. And he never. 767 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,320 He was a football coach who ended up in business and then 768 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,760 ended up coaching the world's greatest CEOs of all time. 769 00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:20,080 I don't think he had any formal training in what you might call 770 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,440 executive and leadership coaching, but he was a football 771 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,480 guy. But and hit the book about him 772 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,240 is unbelievable called the Trillion Dollar Coach. 773 00:36:27,240 --> 00:36:29,800 I recommend it anyway. So yeah. 774 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,360 And and when I started, I wasn't trained as a coach either. 775 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,520 I had no idea what I was doing. And then I had a conversation 776 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,040 with someone who was my coach and he put it into a frame, 777 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,880 which was he said, you don't realize you've been coaching all 778 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:43,240 along. You just didn't call yourself a 779 00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:45,120 coach. And so when you're teaching in a 780 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,400 high school or you're the rabbi in a community or you're an 781 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,080 organization, a leader, and you're sitting with a leader 782 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,080 from another organization, they're coming to you for advice 783 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,160 and they have a question and they're thinking it through. 784 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,760 They're relying on you, not simply as a an advisor, as a 785 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,480 counselor. On some level, there's a 786 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,040 coaching piece to it. What I say a lot of the time, 787 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:07,280 and it's not a nice thing to say, but I say it a lot is most 788 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,720 people who call themselves coaches don't actually coach 789 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,560 because it's not the same thing. And I'm a little bit of, I don't 790 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:17,520 call myself a snob about it, but a little bit of a snob. 791 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,320 I did spend some time studying and I did study with some 792 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,880 coaches. I did take a long formal program 793 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:24,680 in coaching to get certified as a coach. 794 00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:28,120 They thought it was important to have a sort of a pathway in how 795 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,040 I think about these things and how I work with people. 796 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,480 And at the same time, they couldn't begin to appreciate the 797 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,040 nuance difference between a coach, consultant, a trainer, 798 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:38,880 things like that. And they're not exactly the same 799 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,000 thing. So I when I was at Costnet to 800 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,280 one of the things I did, I was, I was coaching potential other 801 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,120 coaches. They had a program, partnership 802 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,840 program, people outside the company who were consultants in 803 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,880 their day-to-day who wanted to learn coaching for non profits. 804 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,160 And since I was the guy in the team was the head of coaching, I 805 00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:00,560 was training them to be coaches. And there was one or two people 806 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,560 who I was working with who couldn't be a coach. 807 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,840 They needed to do the work. And what I mean by that is when 808 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,120 I'm doing coaching, I'm asking all the right questions and I'm 809 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,200 pushing people maybe to do things they don't want to do. 810 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,680 I'm not actually the one doing the physical work, the tasks 811 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,160 day-to-day. And if you feel like you need to 812 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,000 be the one doing the work in the project, then you're not a 813 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,480 coach. You're either a contractor or 814 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,760 you're a consultant or you're a trainer, but you're not a coach. 815 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,160 And if you're providing them with the answers all the time, 816 00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:31,320 then you're an advisor and a counselor. 817 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,520 You're, you know, Yetro in, you know, in terms of Moshe in that 818 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,880 space, but you're not a coach. And so like there are real 819 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,200 differences in that. And I think it's important for 820 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,200 people sometimes to appreciate that the person that they're 821 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,320 speaking to isn't a coach. It's someone who they're going 822 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:48,520 to for advice. If you're going to for the 823 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,480 person for advice, they give you advice, they're not coaching 824 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,480 you, they're counseling you. That's a completely different 825 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,320 thing. And I think it's important. 826 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,240 So a lot of the work that I'm doing is helping people pull out 827 00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:00,880 the answers from themselves. I'm putting them into the frame 828 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,480 of the conversation. I'm laying out options for them. 829 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,880 I'm not deciding for them and I'm helping them elicit the 830 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:08,760 answers that they feel like they need. 831 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,480 And at the same time, I'm a bit of a cheerleader because I'm 832 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,520 trying to get them to do things that they're not comfortable 833 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,040 with, to push themselves to do things that they're not not not 834 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,680 willing yet to try so that they can get to where they want to be 835 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:22,760 and to be the most successful version of themselves. 836 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,200 And so, so it's not for everyone. 837 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:26,880 I think coaching, I think if you still want to be in the 838 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:31,480 day-to-day work of it, then do multiple things, coach and also 839 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,560 consult or contract, which is what I do. 840 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:38,520 I do a mix of the three. The fourth thing also, that's 841 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:40,600 the mix. So I coach, you know, individual 842 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,280 leaders and groups of leaders. I consult on projects for 843 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,360 organizations and I'll, I'll give you the, the quip for it in 844 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:48,920 just a second. And then I also do contract 845 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:50,360 work. I'm actually in the day-to-day 846 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,120 work of an organization doing specific things and tasks for 847 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,040 them to help them get to where they want to be. 848 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:57,440 Those three things are very different. 849 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,160 So what I always say is you coach people, you consult 850 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,280 problems. That's the that's and that comes 851 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,240 from that book. That's the like the main thing. 852 00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:06,920 You coach people you're working with, the person you consult, 853 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:08,520 the problem. There's a problem, there's an 854 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,600 issue, there's something that there's a struggle. 855 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,880 Whatever it is, that's consultant and those are not the 856 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:15,440 same. Got it. 857 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:19,400 So in this to all other things, you also have time to do a 858 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:20,680 podcast. So do you want to just give a 859 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,120 quick pitch for your podcast? What is it and who should be 860 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,120 tuning in? Yeah, I actually do too. 861 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,560 I just started another one a couple weeks ago. 862 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,240 So the first one is called Coaching the Bible, which is a a 863 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:35,600 mix for me between learning Torah and learning leadership at 864 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:37,640 the same time. And they've been doing that for 865 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:39,480 now in season 5. This is Year 5. 866 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,840 So it follows the weekly parsha, basically a week to week and 867 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:47,600 trying to explore the origins of a, what I call a leadership 868 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,640 principle or business principle from its Torah biblical roots 869 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,000 and to apply those things, they're timeless. 870 00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,160 It started with the idea that I was, I was getting a little bit, 871 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,600 I don't know, I would say bored is not the right term with, you 872 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:05,120 know, Schneider on a week to week basis. 873 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,080 And I needed something that was going to drive me. 874 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,960 It used to be I would pick another safer every year and I 875 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,280 had an interest in starting something I needed, I felt like 876 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,920 I needed to get some content out. 877 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:17,720 I don't know what it was. So something internally I just 878 00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:20,240 needed like on a weekly basis to produce. 879 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:22,720 And so the podcast was the avenue. 880 00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:26,720 And so on some level the people who listen, they're benefiting 881 00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:28,440 mostly me. I don't know that I'm benefiting 882 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,080 them at all. And so, you know, so over the 883 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,800 course of 200 plus episodes at this point, recovering anything 884 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,120 from empathy to compassion to strategic, you know, business 885 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,040 approaches at the last this year. 886 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,720 So all of Bracia this year was about decision making, different 887 00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:48,680 aspects and thinking about how people make decisions, you know, 888 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,760 using the characters in in brace sheet to understand how they 889 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:54,880 made the decision, why they decided what to do what they 890 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,920 did, why they decided not to do something else. 891 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,920 And appreciating that not just from the inside the store, which 892 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,160 maybe is in in and of itself interesting, but also from the 893 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:09,120 standpoint of you as a leader in your community, your home, your 894 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,960 business, whatever that may be. So that's still going. 895 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:13,400 That's one. The second one I just started a 896 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:17,440 few weeks ago was a more of a professional pursuit with a 897 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:19,720 former colleague of mine at Cosmos named Remy Rubin. 898 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,880 And we talked about everything within the world of good. 899 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,360 So we're looking at the different ecosystems and 900 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:27,480 different aspects of the world of good philanthropy, 901 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,600 fundraising organizations, leaders, founders, stuff like 902 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,440 that. And we're just talking about a 903 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:34,800 lot of the issues. We're going to start bringing on 904 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,800 guests to talk to them about their experiences as leaders and 905 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,600 as founders, their struggles, their pains, their winds. 906 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,920 And so that's been really interesting in the last few 907 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,960 weeks just because we both felt like that was what we wanted to 908 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,680 do. There's obviously potentially 909 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,360 professional benefit in starting something like that at this time 910 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:52,920 in the world. And we felt like there was a 911 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:54,800 niche that we could perhaps speak to. 912 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,880 And so I'm doing 2 at the. Amazing. 913 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,840 OK, so let's wrap up with our lightning round, where in the 914 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:02,520 winter we have these long Friday nights. 915 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,000 So what's your favorite way of using that long time after the 916 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,240 Friday night soda? So I have to say the first thing 917 00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:10,760 I do is I do all the dishes. So it's an important thing to 918 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,400 mention here is, and I want to say so though, when my, my 919 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,320 family listens to this, they know that I know that every 920 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,280 Friday night I'm the one who's doing dishes and I've been doing 921 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,000 for years and the dishes Friday night. 922 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,000 So that's the first thing I do is that. 923 00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:25,960 And then typically speaking, it's if I'm inside a good book. 924 00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:27,960 So I'll, I'll do that for many, many years. 925 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,640 Or just it was a long night that I had for myself hours and hours 926 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,840 within, you know, either it was partial, most often with partial 927 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:39,240 related swarm, just, you know, nibbling at a certain issue or 928 00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:40,920 we're trying to understand something. 929 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:43,720 And so it's hours and hours of learning. 930 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:50,240 I do most of my learning on Shabbos and I get a lot of, I 931 00:43:50,240 --> 00:43:54,840 feel like a very fulfilled and filled up with that. 932 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:56,560 So yeah, love along Friday night. 933 00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:58,840 Amazing. And you mentioned before your 934 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,640 favorite coaching book, The Trillion Dollar Coach. 935 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:02,040 What's your favorite parsha Safer? 936 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,560 Is there one that has a particular relevance to your 937 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:05,880 coaching and your leadership roles? 938 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,720 No, not none of that. The the the one that I would. 939 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:13,720 I knew that this was a question that was coming. 940 00:44:13,720 --> 00:44:16,480 I had to really think about it because for a long time I used 941 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,600 to do when I was in the rap, when I was in the rapid and I 942 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,200 would do one new pay rush a year. 943 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:24,960 So I would do the parsha, I would do Rashi and then I would 944 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:26,520 add on another. And when I was in the rap, I 945 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,760 initial so every like short fartorial that I would give 946 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,560 before landing was from that new safer so that over the course of 947 00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:35,040 many years, I would get through a lot of Maharsh. 948 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:36,200 And how else are you going to get through them? 949 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:42,760 Right then I hit on 2, so I'm getting, I'll give you 2. 950 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,960 One was the Berry Ossif Rabbiosif Salant, which Rabbi 951 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,440 Ari Leibowitz introduced me to many years ago. 952 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,000 And just love, love, love that safe, fair. 953 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:58,320 Just the the weaving and the mixing of content and creativity 954 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:03,480 and both on The upshot level and on the drift level, phenomenal, 955 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,640 phenomenal work. And then the other one which 956 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,480 I've been learning I think consistently for 30 years at 957 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,040 this point is in the city of Shalom, which is just working on 958 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,760 a different plane for me in terms of, you know, the Hasidic 959 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,240 and the spiritual plane. And looking at those same took 960 00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:19,760 him from a completely different vantage point. 961 00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:22,800 So those two have sustained me for a long time. 962 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:24,840 And then I'm always looking at something new. 963 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,280 So the last couple of years Steinfeld has a great work on 964 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,480 the weekly parsha. There's one called the Nephis 965 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,880 Shella Shella parsha. I think it's called Reflagai 966 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,960 London, which is like a set of them and you might have it on 967 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:37,840 yourself. You're looking for it. 968 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:40,000 Nephis Shella parsha, I think it's called. 969 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,960 So it's like four or five different volumes on on parsha 970 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:44,600 and then also on some of the Megillahs. 971 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:46,480 Yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah. 972 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:48,520 Parsha, Shella Nephis. OK, got it wrong. 973 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:51,760 OK, Amazing, amazing, amazing, amazing. 974 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,400 So that has been and I and I love that sort of new ish 975 00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,000 Russia, Shiva, Israel vibe, which is new to me. 976 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:01,960 And so I've been really interesting. 977 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:04,320 Amazing. And final question. 978 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,800 If you were forced to choose a job, any job, in a role in 979 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:09,840 industry that you haven't yet been in, what would it be? 980 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,120 It would be probably coaching basketball, I think to give you 981 00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:17,240 these. My son, my son played one of my 982 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,480 one of my sons plays a lot of basketball and he always jokes 983 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,720 that like I'm a different person when it comes to to basketball. 984 00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:25,200 When I'm at his games and I'm talking basketball with him, 985 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:26,920 it's just a different aspect of my being. 986 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,680 I'm not not a crazy rowdy, yelling at the refs kind of a 987 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:31,080 fan and I'm not yelling at him either. 988 00:46:31,240 --> 00:46:34,760 That's not me as a person. But, but in terms of just paying 989 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,160 attention and following the game and being interested in the game 990 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,280 in the instead of the coaching, if I could coach basketball at a 991 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,640 high level, I think I would enjoy that. 992 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:45,960 OK, amazing. Benny Marilis, thank you so much 993 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,080 for all your insights today. Thank you. 994 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:49,400 Pleasure being here. Thanks so much.