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Hi everybody, I am Sean. 
This is everyday quality, a 

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podcast about quality management
systems. 

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And we're going to try not to 
put you to sleep today because 

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we're going to talk about a, an 
exciting topic that well, in in 

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our world, it's a pretty 
exciting topic. 

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It's something that we're going 
to tackle because every quality 

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professional has probably felt 
this at some point in their 

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lives. 
Maybe not said it out loud, but 

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at some point your corrective 
action, preventive action system

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loses efficacy. 
It stinks and it's undeniable. 

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Everybody, they, they get to a 
point where they're just like, I

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don't want to do corrective 
actions anymore. 

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It's it's kind of defeating 
sometimes to constantly be 

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finding problems and and needing
to address them. 

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But this, this corrective action
fatigue is, is what we're going 

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to talk about. 
You know that, that feeling 

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where you're in your weekly 
Kappa meeting and everybody's 

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filled out the the forms were 
were nodding through all of the 

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like, all right, what action is 
do next, do your thing, Where 

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are you at? 
But nothing changes. 

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And if you don't have that 
visible improvement, if you 

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don't have that action 
happening, it starts to drag and

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the Kappa process becomes 
ineffective. 

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So today we're going to talk 
about, you know, why that 

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fatigue can set in, what it cost
us and and how to fix it, 

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hopefully. 
So let's get into it. 

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The Kappa system is what I call 
it corrective action, preventive

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action. 
It's AI don't know actually if 

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preventive action. 
I don't think preventive action 

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is a a modern thing in ISO. 
I got it from the the Med device

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world where you do have to do 
those kind of religiously. 

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But maybe yours is just a a car 
system. 

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Maybe it's a a just a corrective
action system. 

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Whatever you call it, it's what 
you do to fix things after 

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they've gone bad or after the 
problem has been noticed. 

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It is an improvement tool. 
You know, every, every time I do

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an internal audit and I find 
myself auditing corrective 

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action management review and 
internal audit, I find it a bit 

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silly cause ultimately it's 
auditing improvement three 

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different times to see if it's 
really effective in its many 

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forms. 
The corrective action systems 

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should be your, your coolest 
improvement tool 'cause 

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everybody gets involved. 
So, so that's why these are are 

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major. 
They should be utilized to the 

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best of their ability. 
But if something goes wrong in 

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that process, then it loses 
efficacy. 

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So let's let's go into to that. 
So the corrective action system,

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you know, the a bad thing 
happens, you dig in, you find 

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the root cause, you make the 
change and prevent it from 

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happening ever again. 
It is absolutely what plan do 

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check act is all about and it's 
really what's improvement in ISO

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9001 and risk management and AS 
9100 and everything else is 

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it's, it's the, the heartbeat of
that system quality is 

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improvement. 
So care active action is there 

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to make that happen. 
But when it comes to the the 

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execution, you know, sometimes 
the Kappa can become more of a 

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paperwork process. 
Yeah, I love Kamishi. 

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By audits, that term literally 
means paper theater. 

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But that's can be what a 
corrective action system 

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becomes. 
If you're just looking to get 

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the stamp, get the signatures 
and then move on without 

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actually learning anything, it 
becomes ineffective. 

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You get bored with it. 
I think that fatigue is what 

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happens when people stop taking 
that process seriously. 

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If it becomes viewed as a rubber
stamp process, then you've lost 

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all efficacy in it. 
You go through the motions, you 

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fill out the paperwork, but you 
don't feel what that system 

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should be doing, which is making
life easier for everybody. 

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So Kappa fatigue could look like
it's it the, the corrective 

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action itself could sit open for
months or years well beyond the 

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the real period where you can do
anything effective to address a 

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specific issue and months and 
years open. 

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This is modern manufacturing. 
You won't have the same people 

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on the team a year, two years 
after a corrective action has 

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been opened. 
So this needs to be an effective

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tool, if for no other reason 
than to keep up with the market.

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We need to collect and catalog 
all of that knowledge that we 

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learn to and, and corrective 
action is the, the system that's

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going to get you there. 
But if we aren't writing it 

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down, getting it done quickly, 
you know, somebody that's with 

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the company for for two years, 
they might not see that third 

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year, but they're going to take 
a lot of knowledge with them. 

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I don't know anybody that's not 
working less than 70 hours these

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days. 
So you'll learn a lot in that, 

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that two year period. 
So maybe that's, that's just me,

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but it could also present itself
as the the same problems 

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reappearing again and again and 
again. 

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Corrective action stops things 
from happening again and again 

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and again. 
So if you are finding repeat 

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problems, your system doesn't 
work. 

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Or maybe you hear the phrase in 
the background and I'll you'll 

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hear this from non quality folks
day in, day out. 

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They could be saying, you know, 
hey, maybe let's not do this as 

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a Kappa. 
That'll really slow everything 

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down. 
If you hear that your system 

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needs a refresh, you need 
something else to kind of boost 

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participation in this thing 
again, because if Kappa is 

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viewed as a roadblock, people 
will find a way around. 

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They'll go another route. 
And that doesn't help your ISO 

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stuff whatsoever. 
So why? 

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Why could Kappa fatigue actually
be happening in a facility? 

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I've seen it, you've seen it 
we've all seen it. 

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Let's get it out in the open and
and talk about it. 

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So why does this this happen? 
There could be many causes nods 

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are you've seen a a few of these
in your workplace. 

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You know your system could be 
overused if everything becomes a

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Kappa. 
Minor issues even. 

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You know, maybe a production run
had a slight defect on a part 

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that costs a penny to make. 
Don't do a full blown corrective

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action for that. 
Nobody cares. 

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It's not worth the the time and 
effort put in if you're looking 

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at cost of poor quality. 
That prevention or detection 

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cost there just goes through the
roof and you can't really 

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justify spending $1000 on a 
product that you're only going 

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to make $400.00 on. 
So if it becomes a paperwork 

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exercise, your system isn't 
going to be well liked by the 

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people that you as a quality 
professional are putting in 

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charge of that. 
So just try not to overuse a 

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assistant. 
You know, let's not get into 

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diagnosis yet. 
Overuse could cause fatigue. 

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It could be poorly prioritized. 
Not all problems are created 

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equal, but many systems and 
systems that I've run, we treat 

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it the same way. 
Like Nope, this is a problem and

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it affected one department, but 
your problem that affects 5 

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departments was detected later, 
so we aren't going to engage 

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with that. 
That's not the way to run it. 

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You need to do that, that full 
FMEA thing with your RPN 

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numbers, risk priority date, too
much coffee, RPN. 

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So if you've got a high 
consequence or high likelihood 

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of recurrence, high severity, 
sorry, that's not severity, not 

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consequence. 
Tackle those first. 

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Put your resources into that. 
If it is really just a potential

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late processing of a USMCA form 
like that's low consequence, 

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don't worry about it. 
Another main cause could be the 

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administrative burden. 
You know, if you've got a lot of

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paperwork, forms, templates, due
dates that are tight, it could 

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become just a a checklist 
exercise. 

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You know you want a good, solid,
easy to use process. 

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I'm getting into diagnosing, 
sorry. 

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But if you're using like in an 
8D form that is for some reason 

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10 pages long, nobody's going to
use that. 

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Nobody. 
You know that a three form is 

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really great for organizing the 
discussion because you're able 

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to write everything you need on 
one sheet of it's a giant sheet 

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of paper, granted, but everybody
is able to kind of see and do 

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and, and work with just one 
sheet of paper to get everything

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they need. 
Taking that form from the the 

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written stuff that that 
everybody works on in a 

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conference room or, or 
preferably where the problem 

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happened, moving that from the 
the form into a more usable 

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format later on. 
That's time consuming, but 

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quality can take care of that. 
Let the people that know how to 

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solve it, solve it. 
Write it down in an easy to use 

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format and they'll get it to 
you. 

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Don't make the the paperwork the
important aspect of a corrective

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action. 
You need to document it. 

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Yes, you need to do that. 
You need to make sure that 

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everybody is aware of the 
importance of the paperwork, but

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don't make the paperwork the 
greatest burden. 

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You could see lack of ownership 
as a a key figure in everything 

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that the Kappa system has to 
deal with. 

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You know, quality doesn't own 
corrective action, but because 

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quality is in charge of the 
corrective action process in 

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most places, it's always viewed 
as kind of like, oh, quality's 

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going to deal with the the 
corrective action. 

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Quality knows our stuff. 
We know how to make sure the 

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system is effective. 
We're going to check it, we're 

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going to audit it. 
We might not know what the the 

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product engineers know. 
So they need to own the solution

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side of it. 
They need to own the action side

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of it. 
I could tell my engineers all 

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day long, like, hey, maybe you 
should try building it better. 

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That's not a solution though. 
That's that's my solution. 

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I don't fully understand exactly
what they need to do from the 

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mechanical side. 
I know the statistics. 

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I'll do the math all day long. 
I'll do the monster math all day

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long. 
You never know. 

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But the quality is going to be 
there to monitor, track and make

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sure that these corrective 
actions are done on time. 

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But they should not be the ones 
coming up with how to fix it 

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'cause that's just going to 
anger everybody. 

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And then maybe in some places 
it's just straight up cynicism. 

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Maybe your culture isn't right 
for corrective action. 

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We've all seen that. 
When the culture says, hey, you 

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know what, just say it was an 
operator. 

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Say we had a training issue. 
Then that becomes pervasive and 

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that ruins any kind of efficacy 
that your corrective action 

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system is going to do because it
becomes a blame thing. 

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Repeat after me. 
People don't fail, processes 

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fail. 
And the corrective action system

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is there to make sure that the 
process is effective enough so 

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that it is at a point where if 
somebody does fail, they really 

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had to go out of their way to, 
to make it happen. 

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So when it's not a true root 
cause analysis that's going on, 

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just, Oh yeah, the operator was 
the, the, the problem there. 

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We fired him. 
Moving on. 

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That is not analysis. 
That is avoidance. 

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And we want to get rid of that. 
So maybe those, those, those 

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items sound familiar. 
You know, overuse of your Kappa 

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system, poor prioritization of 
what corrective actions need to 

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be taken on paperwork burdens, 
ownership and accountability 

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issues and just not 
understanding how the Kappa 

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system should should work. 
Maybe those sound sound 

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familiar. 
So it doesn't mean though, that 

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your QMS is broken. 
It just means that the system 

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needs a little bit of a, a 
refresh, recalibrate it. 

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You know, we all work with, with
calibration systems as well. 

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And now you see when, when the 
the corrective actions are 

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staying open longer and longer 
and longer and longer that 

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something is out of whack. 
So recalibrate, get it back in 

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order and we can do this. 
You know, it's just, it's just 

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people. 
So what does fatigue, the Kappa 

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fatigue do? 
Well, first, the the system 

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loses credibility. 
You know when when leadership 

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sees dozens of corrective 
actions with no progress, they 

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start to see quality management 
as a a formality. 

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They just are like, we're going 
to do this for the audit. 

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If that phrase is in your 
building, it is time to fix 

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things. 
That's because if the system is 

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a checklist, if it is a 
formality, if it is just a 

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series of boxes that everybody 
has to deal with once a year 

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before the surveillance auditor 
comes in, it's not a function. 

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Next, the the lack of attention 
to a corrective action system 

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slows improvement. 
And there's nothing worse, 

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nothing more deadly to a culture
than having the system not have 

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an impact. 
If every little thing is in the 

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pipeline, nothing gets the 
attention it deserves. 

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And that is something we need 
to, to avoid at all costs, 

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prioritize properly and make 
sure people see the results of 

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these actions that you're 
taking. 

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Because if you aren't taking 
action, if everybody is thinking

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that good things are going to 
happen once we identify a 

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problem, but nothing happens, it
just drains the energy. 

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Your quality team spends more 
time managing the tracker than 

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solving problems. 
And that's, that's not good. 

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You've got these zombies just 
walking around instead of doing 

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continual improvement. 
They are just making the 

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motions, going through the, the 
act of improving things without 

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actually doing anything. 
So I've already discussed a 

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whole bunch of fixes 'cause I, I
can't not, but that's, that's 

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kind of a problem too. 
You know, if if you are in a 

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system where the whole team 
immediately jumps to, OK, this 

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went wrong, how do we fix it 
without this went wrong? 

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Or rather, instead of this went 
wrong, let's look at it, figure 

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out why, and then fix it based 
on the why. 

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That is a big problem too. 
That is the one that I run into 

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all the time. 
I actually had a a production 

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manager one time at a a shop. 
Had a whole bunch of of stuff 

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running. 
Got a big old whiteboard next to

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the machine center. 
That was the the source of the 

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issue. 
We wrote up a problem statement 

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and we started A5. 
Why Now the production manager 

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stops the conversation and he 
says, well we all know why. 

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No, we don't. 
No we don't. 

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We didn't hear from the 
operator, we didn't hear from 

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the the setup team, we didn't 
hear from the quality 

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inspectors, we didn't hear from 
the engineers that are are 

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tasked with making sure the 
process is effective. 

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We didn't hear anything from our
materials people. 

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We lost a lot of knowledge, we 
lost a lot of participation. 

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We lost a lot of energy when 
that production manager just 

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stood up and said, hey, we know 
why this happened, let's fix 

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that. 
We didn't fix it. 

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It came back because we didn't 
take the time to do a proper 5Y 

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or a fish bone to solve that. 
OK all right so that's that's my

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little rant story We're coming 
back to it. 

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How do we fix fatigue? 
That is a a big, big problem 

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because fatigue becomes culture.
Culture is difficult to to turn 

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around, but we can fix it. 
So let's talk about solutions. 

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Here's a Kappa system recovery 
plan. 

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Bunch of steps here. 
First, triage all your your 

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existing corrective actions. 
If you see your system in need 

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of recalibration, take a look at
everything you have open and 

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decide what deserves a full 
corrective action. 

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The quick decision rule does. 
Does it? 

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Does this issue pose a risk to 
product quality, safety or 

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compliance or your system? 
If not, fix it, log it as kind 

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of a maybe that is your your 
preventive action. 

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Maybe it is a action taken to 
address risk. 

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Write it down somewhere, but you
do not necessarily need a full 

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corrective action and all of the
time and energy that should go 

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into that because you have other
things to deal with. 

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Next, make it visual. 
Visual management is key, and 

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information hidden behind 
computer screens on a server 

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somewhere becomes information 
you have to seek out. 

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So you have to be thinking about
it in the first place to think 

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to to even want to learn what 
corrective actions you have 

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open. 
If you don't have it posted, it 

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will be forgotten and it really 
becomes a scheduled activity. 

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That doesn't help. 
So if you post your corrective 

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actions, get them out in front 
of where everybody can be. 

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Write down the problem 
statement, write down a due 

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00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:32,880
date, write down an owner, make 
it in front of people and it 

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will drive accountability. 
Next, empower the ownership of 

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00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,320
these corrective actions. 
And remember, quality owns the 

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process, not the actions. 
That's, that is how I I try to 

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00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:52,040
frame all of my corrective 
actions at at my offices. 

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If quality is in charge of the 
corrective action system and its

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results to make sure that 
corrective actions are closed, 

300
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,520
then we can push to make sure 
that these things are closed and

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00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,760
effective. 
Effective is the the key here. 

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00:21:08,360 --> 00:21:13,320
Quality cannot know everything. 
Quality cannot be the sole owner

303
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:19,080
of what needs to be done. 
So quality guide, mentor, verify

304
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,600
the people who own the processes
though that your corrective 

305
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,480
action is issued to you. 
Maybe you've got a machinist 

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00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,560
center owner. 
They need to own corrective 

307
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,320
actions related to the machine 
centers. 

308
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,560
That's how you build Bion, all 
right. 

309
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,200
Make sure that they know that 
they are in charge of this. 

310
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,280
They are to report back to 
quality, and quality is going to

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00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,160
make sure that their name on 
that visual board is set and 

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ready to go next. 
Shorten the loop. 

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If you don't have a regular 
Kappa meeting, schedule one. 

314
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Do it once a week. 
Just makes it easier, makes it 

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00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:05,400
more viable. 
Provides that feedback input. 

316
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,400
I always set my internal 
corrective actions to still have

317
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:17,600
a 90 day correction plan. 
Far too many times working in in

318
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,280
medical. 
Did we try a shortened 

319
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,800
corrective action plan and we 
just didn't have the data ready 

320
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,400
to go? 
So still do 90 days even in a 

321
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,360
general industry thing make sure
is to make sure that the product

322
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,520
has run, that we're able to get 
the data all organized. 

323
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,960
Anything that comes from a 
customer though, that's got to 

324
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,560
be done within two weeks, just 
just make it done. 

325
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,320
Get it done. 
It's got to be fast. 

326
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,360
Got to get a plan and then you 
can go in and verify it later 

327
00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:52,960
on. 
Next, celebrate closing that. 

328
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:58,240
So in a in a proper 8D. 
That last step #8 is to 

329
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,720
celebrate. 
Get the team together. 

330
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:07,680
Let them know that they did a 
good thing by closing this. 

331
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,360
Make it public. 
I'm not above embarrassing 

332
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:17,480
people, but do what you need to 
so but as the the more that you 

333
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,440
celebrate the closure of Kappas,
the more that you let people 

334
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:25,360
know that actual improvement has
happened because the problem was

335
00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:28,400
identified, resolved, addressed 
properly. 

336
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:33,200
That really builds up a culture 
that avoids Kappa as a 

337
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,320
punishment activity and becomes 
a a victory activity. 

338
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:46,440
Next, you don't want to to train
people on corrective actions 

339
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:52,760
just to fill out the forms. 
You want to train people on root

340
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,400
cause analysis. 
You want to get people curious, 

341
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:01,600
train curiosity. 
Train them to to go around, ask 

342
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:07,880
why, ask how, ask when something
needs to happen. 

343
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,720
The more that you train people 
to ask questions, the more that 

344
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,520
they will become the detective 
that'll find and identify all of

345
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,880
those risks that may be a real 
problem ahead of time. 

346
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,080
So you want to train to make 
sure that people understand that

347
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,640
their role is about being 
curious, being a problem solver,

348
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,000
being one step ahead of the 
problem, not just training them 

349
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,680
to be compliant to a Kappa 
system. 

350
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:44,240
So, yeah, so Cabo fatigue is, is
real. 

351
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:49,680
It happens when when good 
systems are effective. 

352
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,240
Because once once you get a good
system in place, you're going to

353
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,920
find corrective action 
opportunities all over the 

354
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:57,400
place. 
And that's an OK thing. 

355
00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:02,000
That is fine. 
There's nothing wrong with 

356
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,800
corrective actions. 
Need to find balance, need to 

357
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,400
find the way to address the 
culture side, need to make sure 

358
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,120
that people are aware of their 
role in all of this and they 

359
00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:13,800
need to be responsible for what 
is going on. 

360
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,840
This Kappa fatigue discussion, 
you know, it's not about bad 

361
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:22,960
people, bad standards, bad 
practices. 

362
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:28,760
It's often volume, red tape, 
misaligned priorities, 

363
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:34,320
misaligned ownership, these, 
these all kind of collide in one

364
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,360
spot to build a problem for your
system's efficacy. 

365
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,880
So triage your issues, put 
something up. 

366
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,800
Visual management is going to 
help empower your people to to 

367
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,880
make actions, shorten your 
process, make sure that they're 

368
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,640
done quick. 
Celebrate all of those victories

369
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,040
that you get when something's 
closed out. 

370
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:59,240
Show that improvement is being 
made because when a Kappa works,

371
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,840
it should not just be paperwork.
It should show progress. 

372
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:09,280
So that is that is it for for 
this one. 

373
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,560
I've talked far too much far too
long. 

374
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:13,760
So I want to hear from you 
though. 

375
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,200
Send me your your Kappa horror 
stories. 

376
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,840
Maybe you've fixed a Kappa 
system yourself. 

377
00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:25,120
Send me that cool info. 
I definitely want to hear all of

378
00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:26,920
that. 
You can reach out. 

379
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:30,080
I'm going to pull up the e-mail 
address because I always 

380
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,360
forgets. 
Give me one second here. 

381
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:41,080
Everyday quality. 
Man, I really need to get better

382
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,960
at this. 
everydayqualitypodcast@gmail.com

383
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,360
is going to be our best way to 
to chat. 

384
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:55,280
You can also e-mail my little 
consultancy group. 

385
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:01,680
We are Co quality system. 
Man, again, I, I've got to I got

386
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:06,360
to verify it got to verify it 
yes, Co quality systems. 

387
00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:10,520
You can check out COQ ms.com For
more information and reach out 

388
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,400
for with with any questions that
you may have on your quality 

389
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,880
system. 
And that I really think that is 

390
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:23,520
that is it for me today yes, 
thank you for listening reach 

391
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,200
out and I want to hear your cool
Kappa stories and we'll talk 

392
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:27,680
more soon. 
Thanks everybody. 

393
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:28,200
Bye.