When you go back to the 70s it, you hear stories where people
were showing up in the morning, a small glass of wine and a
cigarette and whatever. And I never, I never saw that
honestly. So it was, it was part the the
the other real legend is that they used to be cigarettes in
the Mrs for the French. I mean, of course there is a
Corkscrew in the MRE. To do what?
I don't know, but might be useful.
It's still there. I mean, you're very popular with
that. I mean, it's kind of a Swiss
knife. And there is a Corkscrew in the
MRE. Why?
No, But yeah, with the alcohol. No, no one one.
Maybe you don't have this one urban legend, which is not one,
is a guy flew in pyjamas on the QRA because at the time, I mean,
you're there, you're sleeping. And then they call, you say, OK,
go into the aircraft, OK, It's and no.
And and yes, you go back. And so it's time you dress up
and one guy is going there in pyjamas, doesn't care.
And they launch him. Yeah, it's OK.
And then the airfield goes red and he's diverting in pyjamas.
And it really happened again in the 80s, not in only the 2000,
but that's that's a real 1. Benji, welcome back to Temp
Century. Great to see you again.
Thank you, Steve. We had a really interesting
conversation last time around. So for the audience at home is
listening to this we there is a Part 1.
You need to go back and listen to that if you want to make some
sense of what we're going to talk about today.
But Benji, you talked a lot about going through the process
of becoming a fast jet pilot with the French Air Force.
You flew me. Sorry you flew Mirage 2000.
A few minutes later. You flew Mirage F1F1 CT, you
talked a lot about how that aeroplane works, how you would
employ it and combat situations. You talked about BFM ING with it
a CMDACT. It really was a fascinating
conversation. I enjoyed it very much today.
I think what we'll do then, if it's OK with you, is we'll talk
a little bit about your operational experience then.
So you mentioned a few little things about going to Chad,
about taking it to various deployments in the US, flying
against red flag, Maple flag type scenarios.
So what I'd like to do is delve into that with you, find out a
little bit about what it was like to be an operational Mirage
F1 CT pilot in the French Air Force.
If we get time, we will move across then to your exchange
flying Super F on Dodd off of the carrier and your combat in
Afghanistan. If we don't get time, we're just
going to do that in a Part 3. So we'll just take it easy.
We'll go with the conversation takes us today and we'll see how
that works out for us. So for the audience at home,
might, might go to a Part 3, might not.
We'll see. Let's talk a little bit about
then getting to the operational squadron, your first operational
squadron. You told me in an e-mail that it
was a bit of a crazy squadron. Can you explain a little bit
about that? Yeah, the when I was in at at
the end of the the fighter school, I mean I chose the F1
CT, but you don't choose a A squadron.
We were choosing a base and there were two squadron on the
base. One was the Free French Alzas
and the other one was also a Free French Normandin Yemen,
which history dates back to World War 2 where those pilots
were fighting with the Russians against the Germans.
So the the only Free French going east to to West.
And at the time the Alzas squadron was the friendly
squadron and the Normandin Yemen was not the friendly squadron at
all, mostly because of, of leadership and, and the spot I
had was in the non friendly squadron.
So I mean the, the, the arrival we, we were when we, when we get
our posting, we were still in, in Caso in the South of France.
And they were, they were deployed to do air to ground
demo for the highest level of a military education and
politicians. Whatever.
I ended up the night with my flight suit just to cut in in
cutter whatever at the end of the bar.
No, no pain, no burning. But it was tough.
The the other guy was the last one of the class was sent to the
Alzar squadron. It was just having a good time
with his buddies at the same place.
And it was just to set the tone to set the tone.
I I was the head of the class and it was just a mess.
And when I arrived, it was the same the the leadership.
The squadron commander was a a guy who flew in a desert storm,
as I told you in the previous episode.
He he had some iron under his shoes just to make some noise in
the always very demanding on knowledge, very demanding all
over the place. The squadron was working with as
a young pilot, I mean doing everything from I mean shopping
for the bar, being ready fly and whatever.
I mean it was very I would say old school like you're playing
soccer on the Monday morning. You see the van coming with a
private yelling at you. Yeah, come.
And then you you go into the squadron and you see your leader
just stepping out to the aircraft and they say now we're
going flying, don't have any maps, we'll do that.
It's set up for BFM. So it was it was a bit too a bit
old school and people were dropping out because of that.
So I ending up being the last one for a year and a half, which
is not the best place in the inner squadron.
I mean to to be the guy able to do anything anytime.
So kind of a high, high pressure.
And then the the leadership changed and and it was OK, but a
bit between the the OCU and The Mirage F1, which was demanding.
Plus this squadron, which in the 5F1 squadron at the time was
kind of the the worst to be posted in it, it, it, it was, it
was tough and I was, I mean everybody was bonding together.
The good thing about that is that a strong leadership make a
strong squadron. And after for 2-3 years, I mean
all those, this environment was still there without doing
anything. People were working.
It was organised and the, the good thing also was it, it was
really operationally focused. So he, this squadron commander
is the one who pushed to do the red flag with NVGS.
The NVGS were there, but people were not really training much
with them. They didn't see the employment
because we like the the safe laser capability.
So he went to air combat coma and say, OK, we need to deploy
with the 2000 DS and the pods and and we need to train.
And we ended up doing a red flag by night, which has never been
done by the French Air Force before.
So I was a bit suffering from this leadership from this guy,
but at the end, the squadron was really working well.
This was. 2002 then. So this you went to red flag in
2002? Yeah, two 2002 and and to
prepare for that, I mean they did a nice syllabus.
So we did some kind of in house flying with the 2000 DS because
the the F1 cities, they were just when I came, it was a six
months after Kosovo and in Kosovo they flew a mixed war
fighter operation with the Jaguars and then the Jaguars
were just fading away. So it was time to go to the
night and 2000 D So we we did two weeks deployment in in
Corsica to bomb with the 2000 D. Then we did the two weeks in in
Spain. Then we did some real bombing
with the 2000 DS. So small campaign again, ending
up doing a full red Flag Day and night with the with the 2000 DS
and it paved the way to mixed forced operations through
Afghanistan and Libya. So it was the start.
In fact, for 12 years, I mean, until the end of the F1, the F1
was always paired with the 2000 D for the for the auto ground
stuff. Because if you like the pod, I
mean, you still have the gun and you can carry a lot, but we like
the pod. So we keep.
We became buddies because of that.
Can I ask a question? I, I want to get into what you
were doing at Red Flag in Part 1.
You talked about the CT, you talked about the reconnaissance
mission. You described how you go out and
fly reconnaissance sorties and you figured out the angles and
the mapping to capture the necessary intelligence you were
looking for. That was very interesting.
So I want, I want to get into that with you a little bit about
how you took that to Red Flag. But but first of all, I wanted
to just go on a real sort of side quest and ask you about the
political side of things. So this is 2002.
My memory is that in 2001, so you know, 911 had happened.
The Americans are off to Afghanistan.
There was some anti French sentiment in the States.
You know, I, I can't really remember what that was about,
but I remember them saying, well, we won't call them French
fries anymore. There'll be freedom fries or
whatever. And I just wanted to ask, I know
it's a sensitive subject, but, but did you, did you feel any of
that when you were there a year later?
It was, it was early on. I mean on 9/11 we were just
about to deploy to Romania. So 911 happened.
We were in the squadron. Everybody's looking at the tower
two hours before after all the aircraft, I mean, everything
which is training is out of the aircraft.
All the aircraft are armed alive everywhere.
We we ramp up all the QRS stuff in France and, and then when we
were just about to deploy to red Flag, it was for us Anaconda.
So the first drops in March 2002 were done by the French from
Manas, I think from the north in Afghanistan's, in Afghanistan
alongside the American. The disagreements came later on
with the southern Iraq war in 2003, where our Prime Minister
went to the UN Security Council and so we don't have the Intel
supporting A deployment for the French armed forces.
OK alright. So, so this period was a bit
after, yeah, as a military guy, I mean, you just do what you're
supposed to do. But when we were in Romania,
just after 911, we were on the east.
We were the closest to Afghanistan of the French armed
forces. So we say, yeah, if they need
us, we already we can. We can go any, anytime.
And the F1 deployed at the end in 2006, I think 2005 or 6 from
the north, mostly for Riki and Amriki mission.
And the first guns trifling was in 2007, I think in Afghanistan.
So after Iraq, a bit of we, we were still in Afghanistan, but
not in Iraq. And then we, we, we stayed in
Afghanistan forever. So yeah, on the political side,
I think we were, we are, and we will be still alive.
And The thing is you don't deploy to any conflict anytime.
I mean. Yeah, OK.
Tell us about Reflaglin. So you're working with Mrs 2000
DS on the work up. Are you guys going to go out and
operate as pairs, You're going to do the recce, they're going
to hit hit targets. You talked about some sort of
live intelligence gathering capability you can transmit
stuff back to. Not at all.
Yeah, at at this at this time we find the CTP so not the CR.
So there is no kind of old school tactical Ricky, you do
the you do the, the in flight report.
And we, we, we were still practising that.
And it's something that is very efficient in a low threat
environment. Like Chad, for example.
I mean, in Chad you are, you're looking at a column of pickup
trucks, whatever. I mean, I one is putting them
doing, doing the talk. The other guys are behind you do
a pop up, just strap them and whatever we were doing, that red
flag is too busy for that. I mean, that's a big truck.
So it's mostly air defence. Clear the area, the the the
strikers are coming behind. You're trying to survive.
And then when you come close to the target, normally the threat
is kind of low. So you do your auto ground stuff
kind of safely and, and then the wall starts back on the egress
and, and, and it was, it's so very, very normal mission
commander stuff. I mean, we had some mission
commander sports. You, you breathe, you, you plan,
you breathe, you execute your debrief and, and then after your
kind of 10 missions, you're better, which was the case.
In fact, I really like the exercise.
And that's a big ranch. You fly with live ordinance.
And yeah, it it, it was nice, some old school low level, which
was OK. I mean, 480 knots, 500 knots,
200 feet from the ground with live bombs, pop up, find the
target, shoot your two GB 12 as a pair, leave and survive again.
It's really efficient. I would say one step above Maple
flag. Maple flag is mostly designed
for combat ready or two shiplit guys and you can go and talk to
the guy say yeah, I want this pair to be targeted at this time
to see the Fred reaction jamming or whatever red flag is closer
to the real world and being aware that a red flag with
foreigners like us is not like a full US eyes only red flag.
So, I mean, let's be clear, it was at all levels.
Yeah, Speaking of which, then you you gave again a, a very
interesting description in Part 1 of your driving capabilities
in terms of, you know, the effects rather than you can go
into any specifics. But did, did you get validation
of those things in red flags? So or, or or Maple Flag, could
you sit down with people you'd flown against or the guys that
have been running the threat simulators and they say to you,
yeah, your, your gear worked. Yeah, it's, but we are.
You know that there's an electronic warfare Polygon
between Germany and France which is run by Americans, German and
French. You get some simulators and some
real systems like SS6, you get your SA6IN Red flag is not going
to be very different. That's that's the same.
So we are everybody has a kind of different level of jamming
and capabilities. We never play the war mode,
which is the the the latest one, because it might destroy the
system. And as everybody is gathering
information at the same time, I mean you keep your stuff, but
all this generation, I mean all school surfers to where I mean
everybody knows that it's easy to jam you.
You know that. I mean, you know, the the
distance for the fret reaction. You know what to do.
You know what your system is going to do.
So and and I felt at the time that these exercises, they were
really designed to do that. I mean, be integrated in a in a
big Komeo, yes, but also you're targeted by your surface to air,
you manoeuvre, you jam, you drop shafts, flares, if it's
whatever. I mean, it's just a pattern of
reacting to the threat, which is the thing they want you to
learn. I mean, the learning experience
is OK. I see something, I move, I jam,
I shaft, the lock is broken. I come back and and, and this is
it. And there were no S300400500 at
the time. So we were not in this kind of
more stealth capabilities. So yeah, it was really in line
with with what we were doing. And the Polygon was near Colmar
where I was based. I mean, you could go to
Pirmasans, do the SSE and whatever in Germany, then up up
in France. I mean, this Polygon was really
used a lot, even by the A10, the F16 in Spang Dalam.
And I mean they were, I mean it was booked all day, all day long
because it was in France and you could shaft, I mean, so you
could do a medium level combat mission and then it's there.
So first where you react, you shaft for real.
So but red flag was a lot of that, just not a a small band of
area in the North East of France, but something bigger.
Can you tell us, Benji, you said that it was a good preparation
for the sort of seven or eight years that were coming where you
would be working effectively as a NATO force in Afghanistan.
Can you tell us the things that Red Fire gave you then that that
ease that process, or that gave you some early learning that you
didn't then have to do in a war war zone?
Really, I, I, I think this is the, the mindset of the, the big
operations. I mean being integrated refuel,
but it's still an exercise. I would say wartime, it's more
complicated. I mean, a red flag is one piece
just to be confident with. I mean, all the SOP's is going
to look like that. The real world, I mean, it's all
over the place because there's not just one help to wear a
refuelling truck and 1 tanker and there is a spare on the
ground and it's easy. No, I mean you look at Libya,
you get maybe 5 or 6 tankers all the time all over the coast.
One is breaking and you need to go somewhere, but you need to
help. I mean, you need to be there in
your slot and there's another guy coming.
So I mean, this piece is the foundation of error operation,
but real time stuff doesn't look like that at all because you,
you, you can change it. I mean, let's say Afghanistan
trooping contact, you're somewhere you can ask the tanker
to, to go above. I mean you can move a tanker,
you have the C2, it's moving there.
When you move a tanker, I mean you destroy the situation
awareness of 5 or 6, two ships anywhere.
So they are there, they're looking and they're where's the
tanker. I have been just told the
tanker, the tanker is 100 miles to the West and say that's, I
would say a bit more complicated.
But if you're not familiar with the exercise of stuff as it is
done, it's not going to work. I mean mostly you will be
inefficient. You will spend your time chasing
tankers, a very small play time above the guys.
And so this is really I see it. I mean very all, all, all these
big, big missions with guys. I mean it's cool to also
understand how the deals work. There are speeds, there are
loads. What do they need?
I mean all the fighters are different.
Are you going to fly 400 knots, 300 knots, whatever?
What is what are they expecting in building pattern?
What what is the base of speed to to get everybody embracing at
the same time? Can you re roll them?
I mean like a strike eagle? Can they do air to ground and
then reset pop up on the air to air?
So the first batch of 15 Charlies is out.
I mean, it's understanding how the other work makes you better
up to the mission commander level when you need to integrate
all those forces. And then you're in a cast tag
with AC one 30s, Reapers a 10s. I mean, so yeah, we, we are a
NATO country. We were still with NATO with the
the procedures. But these exercises, they are
very, very interesting for for us.
And that's why you have now the Atlantic Trident with UKUS and
France, because this is the right level to be to be
training, training together, to fight together.
I'd like to ask you another question which touches a little
on something you talked about in the first episode.
You described how your process for deciding to go or asking to
go to Mirage F1 CT was that you like the mission.
So you were interested in the role and you didn't really want
to do air to air. You wanted to do sort of air to
ground the recce piece, something, something along those
lines. And this is not supposed to be a
funny question. I'm not trying to be rude to
you, but I would like to ask the question because I know fighter
pilots are very ego driven. But when you go to red flag then
and you're operating with the two mirrors 2000s and the F15 CS
and the F15 ES, and I don't know if the F20 twos were involved at
that point, but you're operating with all these very
sophisticated, very capable multi role platforms and you're
there in your little mirrors, F1 CCT.
Do you, is there a sense that you're or, or does anybody sort
of look down on you? Do you feel like you're look
down on? So you've got a a a rudimentary
air to ground capability. You can drop GBU 12500 LB laser
got a bomb, you got your wrecky capability.
But you, you know, you're in an older aeroplane that has a lower
level of tech, let's say. Do you does that change the way
that you operate as a squadron? Do you?
Does it mean you have to perform better?
Do you get the sense that you're judged?
It's a strange question, I know, but I'm just curious.
Yeah, it's, I mean find the F1 city, you, you know that you're
kind of always the weak sister in those kind of environment.
You're not going to push first in in the area, in the AOR,
you're going to be the last one. Our goal first was I would say
not to mess it up. I mean, being at the the right
level is just no safety stuff. You don't enter Area 51, you
don't smoke a farm and drop infrared on a real farm in in
the range. I mean, all this kind of stuff.
Yeah, because you can be fine. And whatever you try to speak
English, which for French is complicated.
So I mean, don't mess it up on the radio.
Go there, destroy the right stuff, come back, everybody's
happy. And so I would say it's the
baseline, but normal. Then of course, I mean when you
are at the last chance and you see a new guy training on the
A10 with five times the load of Mark 82's dumb bombs and you're
looking up at the A10 because you have a small aircraft there.
Yeah, it's not the same world. And and I get it after AGB 12 on
target on time, this is what I can deliver.
So I'm going to try to do that with the best of my
capabilities. And I didn't feel any
frustration with that because we were part of the the same gang.
And when it was real time, I mean the real operation, I mean,
if I had, if I felt that we were inefficients or not adapted to
the theatre because we were too weak, it was time to to be out
and just do a, an air tattoo and say a farewell to the F1 and
gone. And it was not the case.
I mean, until the the last year of the F1, we were still
deployed because there there was a need for that.
I mean, three flights are OK, but Afghanistan, Libya, Mali,
you, you still need Ricky, you still need aircraft doing that.
So it's not high intensity stuff, of course, but I knew it.
And in the meantime, what do you want to do?
You want to leave things? I I wanted to leave things.
I mean deploy, be with buddies. I mean, see other stuff.
I mean, let's say in shadow, the last deployment we did some
training with the Chadian Sukhoi 25 Frogfoot with Ukrainian
pilots flying them for closer support incorporation.
I mean, that's, is that fun? Well, that's something new.
And this world is kind of repetitive.
I mean, can you do 30 years of fighter pilot stuff?
No. First you're going to be too
old. You're interacting with young
people and it's kind of the same.
I mean, you're going to get new stuff, element mounted queuing
system, a new pod, a new or whatever, but it's still the
same. So you're getting to a point
where you're sharp. This is OK.
And I really felt that the fighter pilot lights was a bit
more than just the flying, just the technology, just I mean, it
was bonding with the guys, learning, sharing experience and
let's say on a weekend, do something in Vegas all together.
I mean it, it's part of the, it's part of the job more than
being kind of a geek, a nerd and, and just be there ready for
no, I, I didn't feel it. We, we knew the spot we were in
honestly. And I think our goal is to take
advantage like a fighter pilot to take advantage of whatever
you have to make it happen the more efficiently.