1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:07,120 When you go back to the 70s it, you hear stories where people 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,720 were showing up in the morning, a small glass of wine and a 3 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:16,360 cigarette and whatever. And I never, I never saw that 4 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,200 honestly. So it was, it was part the the 5 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:23,640 the other real legend is that they used to be cigarettes in 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:29,040 the Mrs for the French. I mean, of course there is a 7 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,240 Corkscrew in the MRE. To do what? 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:34,280 I don't know, but might be useful. 9 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,880 It's still there. I mean, you're very popular with 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:39,240 that. I mean, it's kind of a Swiss 11 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:40,640 knife. And there is a Corkscrew in the 12 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:41,600 MRE. Why? 13 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,240 No, But yeah, with the alcohol. No, no one one. 14 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,960 Maybe you don't have this one urban legend, which is not one, 15 00:00:52,400 --> 00:01:03,080 is a guy flew in pyjamas on the QRA because at the time, I mean, 16 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,880 you're there, you're sleeping. And then they call, you say, OK, 17 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,880 go into the aircraft, OK, It's and no. 18 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,800 And and yes, you go back. And so it's time you dress up 19 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:18,160 and one guy is going there in pyjamas, doesn't care. 20 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,600 And they launch him. Yeah, it's OK. 21 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:26,160 And then the airfield goes red and he's diverting in pyjamas. 22 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:34,640 And it really happened again in the 80s, not in only the 2000, 23 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:51,330 but that's that's a real 1. Benji, welcome back to Temp 24 00:01:51,330 --> 00:01:52,370 Century. Great to see you again. 25 00:01:53,410 --> 00:01:55,610 Thank you, Steve. We had a really interesting 26 00:01:55,610 --> 00:01:57,890 conversation last time around. So for the audience at home is 27 00:01:57,890 --> 00:01:59,650 listening to this we there is a Part 1. 28 00:01:59,770 --> 00:02:02,090 You need to go back and listen to that if you want to make some 29 00:02:02,090 --> 00:02:03,610 sense of what we're going to talk about today. 30 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,720 But Benji, you talked a lot about going through the process 31 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,240 of becoming a fast jet pilot with the French Air Force. 32 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,560 You flew me. Sorry you flew Mirage 2000. 33 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:22,400 A few minutes later. You flew Mirage F1F1 CT, you 34 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,480 talked a lot about how that aeroplane works, how you would 35 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,680 employ it and combat situations. You talked about BFM ING with it 36 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:30,920 a CMDACT. It really was a fascinating 37 00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:33,880 conversation. I enjoyed it very much today. 38 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,480 I think what we'll do then, if it's OK with you, is we'll talk 39 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,840 a little bit about your operational experience then. 40 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,400 So you mentioned a few little things about going to Chad, 41 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,440 about taking it to various deployments in the US, flying 42 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,560 against red flag, Maple flag type scenarios. 43 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,080 So what I'd like to do is delve into that with you, find out a 44 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,960 little bit about what it was like to be an operational Mirage 45 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,160 F1 CT pilot in the French Air Force. 46 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:03,320 If we get time, we will move across then to your exchange 47 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,160 flying Super F on Dodd off of the carrier and your combat in 48 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,520 Afghanistan. If we don't get time, we're just 49 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,520 going to do that in a Part 3. So we'll just take it easy. 50 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,320 We'll go with the conversation takes us today and we'll see how 51 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,760 that works out for us. So for the audience at home, 52 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:20,280 might, might go to a Part 3, might not. 53 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:22,640 We'll see. Let's talk a little bit about 54 00:03:22,640 --> 00:03:26,040 then getting to the operational squadron, your first operational 55 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,240 squadron. You told me in an e-mail that it 56 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,040 was a bit of a crazy squadron. Can you explain a little bit 57 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:36,800 about that? Yeah, the when I was in at at 58 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,400 the end of the the fighter school, I mean I chose the F1 59 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,280 CT, but you don't choose a A squadron. 60 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,000 We were choosing a base and there were two squadron on the 61 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,720 base. One was the Free French Alzas 62 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,960 and the other one was also a Free French Normandin Yemen, 63 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:56,240 which history dates back to World War 2 where those pilots 64 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,320 were fighting with the Russians against the Germans. 65 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,480 So the the only Free French going east to to West. 66 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,680 And at the time the Alzas squadron was the friendly 67 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:10,720 squadron and the Normandin Yemen was not the friendly squadron at 68 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,800 all, mostly because of, of leadership and, and the spot I 69 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,440 had was in the non friendly squadron. 70 00:04:17,959 --> 00:04:24,080 So I mean the, the, the arrival we, we were when we, when we get 71 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:28,760 our posting, we were still in, in Caso in the South of France. 72 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,080 And they were, they were deployed to do air to ground 73 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,000 demo for the highest level of a military education and 74 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:38,200 politicians. Whatever. 75 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:43,200 I ended up the night with my flight suit just to cut in in 76 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,240 cutter whatever at the end of the bar. 77 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,160 No, no pain, no burning. But it was tough. 78 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,560 The the other guy was the last one of the class was sent to the 79 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,080 Alzar squadron. It was just having a good time 80 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:57,960 with his buddies at the same place. 81 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,880 And it was just to set the tone to set the tone. 82 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:05,400 I I was the head of the class and it was just a mess. 83 00:05:05,840 --> 00:05:08,560 And when I arrived, it was the same the the leadership. 84 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:13,360 The squadron commander was a a guy who flew in a desert storm, 85 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,200 as I told you in the previous episode. 86 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:20,000 He he had some iron under his shoes just to make some noise in 87 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:24,680 the always very demanding on knowledge, very demanding all 88 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,960 over the place. The squadron was working with as 89 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:33,520 a young pilot, I mean doing everything from I mean shopping 90 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,880 for the bar, being ready fly and whatever. 91 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:42,600 I mean it was very I would say old school like you're playing 92 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:47,000 soccer on the Monday morning. You see the van coming with a 93 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:49,360 private yelling at you. Yeah, come. 94 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,240 And then you you go into the squadron and you see your leader 95 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,080 just stepping out to the aircraft and they say now we're 96 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,440 going flying, don't have any maps, we'll do that. 97 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,920 It's set up for BFM. So it was it was a bit too a bit 98 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,200 old school and people were dropping out because of that. 99 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:14,840 So I ending up being the last one for a year and a half, which 100 00:06:14,840 --> 00:06:18,520 is not the best place in the inner squadron. 101 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,000 I mean to to be the guy able to do anything anytime. 102 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,680 So kind of a high, high pressure. 103 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,200 And then the the leadership changed and and it was OK, but a 104 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:35,400 bit between the the OCU and The Mirage F1, which was demanding. 105 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:41,480 Plus this squadron, which in the 5F1 squadron at the time was 106 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:47,080 kind of the the worst to be posted in it, it, it, it was, it 107 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,080 was tough and I was, I mean everybody was bonding together. 108 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:54,440 The good thing about that is that a strong leadership make a 109 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,200 strong squadron. And after for 2-3 years, I mean 110 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,400 all those, this environment was still there without doing 111 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,240 anything. People were working. 112 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:08,760 It was organised and the, the good thing also was it, it was 113 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:16,000 really operationally focused. So he, this squadron commander 114 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,800 is the one who pushed to do the red flag with NVGS. 115 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:26,560 The NVGS were there, but people were not really training much 116 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:28,360 with them. They didn't see the employment 117 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,360 because we like the the safe laser capability. 118 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,320 So he went to air combat coma and say, OK, we need to deploy 119 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:39,120 with the 2000 DS and the pods and and we need to train. 120 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:43,400 And we ended up doing a red flag by night, which has never been 121 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:45,040 done by the French Air Force before. 122 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:50,560 So I was a bit suffering from this leadership from this guy, 123 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,080 but at the end, the squadron was really working well. 124 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,960 This was. 2002 then. So this you went to red flag in 125 00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:03,400 2002? Yeah, two 2002 and and to 126 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,080 prepare for that, I mean they did a nice syllabus. 127 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,880 So we did some kind of in house flying with the 2000 DS because 128 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,960 the the F1 cities, they were just when I came, it was a six 129 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,640 months after Kosovo and in Kosovo they flew a mixed war 130 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:22,120 fighter operation with the Jaguars and then the Jaguars 131 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,400 were just fading away. So it was time to go to the 132 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:30,040 night and 2000 D So we we did two weeks deployment in in 133 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:35,280 Corsica to bomb with the 2000 D. Then we did the two weeks in in 134 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:40,280 Spain. Then we did some real bombing 135 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,520 with the 2000 DS. So small campaign again, ending 136 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:50,560 up doing a full red Flag Day and night with the with the 2000 DS 137 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:57,160 and it paved the way to mixed forced operations through 138 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,000 Afghanistan and Libya. So it was the start. 139 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:05,680 In fact, for 12 years, I mean, until the end of the F1, the F1 140 00:09:05,680 --> 00:09:10,560 was always paired with the 2000 D for the for the auto ground 141 00:09:10,560 --> 00:09:12,800 stuff. Because if you like the pod, I 142 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,360 mean, you still have the gun and you can carry a lot, but we like 143 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,200 the pod. So we keep. 144 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,000 We became buddies because of that. 145 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,320 Can I ask a question? I, I want to get into what you 146 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,440 were doing at Red Flag in Part 1. 147 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,240 You talked about the CT, you talked about the reconnaissance 148 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,480 mission. You described how you go out and 149 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,320 fly reconnaissance sorties and you figured out the angles and 150 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,840 the mapping to capture the necessary intelligence you were 151 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:39,080 looking for. That was very interesting. 152 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,000 So I want, I want to get into that with you a little bit about 153 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,560 how you took that to Red Flag. But but first of all, I wanted 154 00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:49,520 to just go on a real sort of side quest and ask you about the 155 00:09:49,560 --> 00:09:52,360 political side of things. So this is 2002. 156 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:58,800 My memory is that in 2001, so you know, 911 had happened. 157 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:01,320 The Americans are off to Afghanistan. 158 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,160 There was some anti French sentiment in the States. 159 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,520 You know, I, I can't really remember what that was about, 160 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,560 but I remember them saying, well, we won't call them French 161 00:10:09,560 --> 00:10:11,400 fries anymore. There'll be freedom fries or 162 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,440 whatever. And I just wanted to ask, I know 163 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,680 it's a sensitive subject, but, but did you, did you feel any of 164 00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:19,320 that when you were there a year later? 165 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:27,080 It was, it was early on. I mean on 9/11 we were just 166 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,120 about to deploy to Romania. So 911 happened. 167 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,800 We were in the squadron. Everybody's looking at the tower 168 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:39,480 two hours before after all the aircraft, I mean, everything 169 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:41,640 which is training is out of the aircraft. 170 00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:44,440 All the aircraft are armed alive everywhere. 171 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:52,360 We we ramp up all the QRS stuff in France and, and then when we 172 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,800 were just about to deploy to red Flag, it was for us Anaconda. 173 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:03,840 So the first drops in March 2002 were done by the French from 174 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:09,680 Manas, I think from the north in Afghanistan's, in Afghanistan 175 00:11:09,680 --> 00:11:14,080 alongside the American. The disagreements came later on 176 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:20,600 with the southern Iraq war in 2003, where our Prime Minister 177 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:24,520 went to the UN Security Council and so we don't have the Intel 178 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,040 supporting A deployment for the French armed forces. 179 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,040 OK alright. So, so this period was a bit 180 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:38,400 after, yeah, as a military guy, I mean, you just do what you're 181 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,360 supposed to do. But when we were in Romania, 182 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,560 just after 911, we were on the east. 183 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,080 We were the closest to Afghanistan of the French armed 184 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:48,640 forces. So we say, yeah, if they need 185 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,360 us, we already we can. We can go any, anytime. 186 00:11:52,680 --> 00:12:03,840 And the F1 deployed at the end in 2006, I think 2005 or 6 from 187 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,600 the north, mostly for Riki and Amriki mission. 188 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:13,440 And the first guns trifling was in 2007, I think in Afghanistan. 189 00:12:13,680 --> 00:12:18,880 So after Iraq, a bit of we, we were still in Afghanistan, but 190 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:23,400 not in Iraq. And then we, we, we stayed in 191 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,000 Afghanistan forever. So yeah, on the political side, 192 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,560 I think we were, we are, and we will be still alive. 193 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,760 And The thing is you don't deploy to any conflict anytime. 194 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,000 I mean. Yeah, OK. 195 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,760 Tell us about Reflaglin. So you're working with Mrs 2000 196 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,920 DS on the work up. Are you guys going to go out and 197 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,400 operate as pairs, You're going to do the recce, they're going 198 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,120 to hit hit targets. You talked about some sort of 199 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,720 live intelligence gathering capability you can transmit 200 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,200 stuff back to. Not at all. 201 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,560 Yeah, at at this at this time we find the CTP so not the CR. 202 00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:04,600 So there is no kind of old school tactical Ricky, you do 203 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:10,240 the you do the, the in flight report. 204 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,720 And we, we, we were still practising that. 205 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,400 And it's something that is very efficient in a low threat 206 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,680 environment. Like Chad, for example. 207 00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:26,000 I mean, in Chad you are, you're looking at a column of pickup 208 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:30,560 trucks, whatever. I mean, I one is putting them 209 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,280 doing, doing the talk. The other guys are behind you do 210 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,800 a pop up, just strap them and whatever we were doing, that red 211 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,960 flag is too busy for that. I mean, that's a big truck. 212 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:45,920 So it's mostly air defence. Clear the area, the the the 213 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,720 strikers are coming behind. You're trying to survive. 214 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:53,360 And then when you come close to the target, normally the threat 215 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,760 is kind of low. So you do your auto ground stuff 216 00:13:55,760 --> 00:14:01,000 kind of safely and, and then the wall starts back on the egress 217 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:10,040 and, and, and it was, it's so very, very normal mission 218 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,600 commander stuff. I mean, we had some mission 219 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:17,600 commander sports. You, you breathe, you, you plan, 220 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:22,080 you breathe, you execute your debrief and, and then after your 221 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,040 kind of 10 missions, you're better, which was the case. 222 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,360 In fact, I really like the exercise. 223 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:32,840 And that's a big ranch. You fly with live ordinance. 224 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:38,760 And yeah, it it, it was nice, some old school low level, which 225 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:43,600 was OK. I mean, 480 knots, 500 knots, 226 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:48,800 200 feet from the ground with live bombs, pop up, find the 227 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:54,080 target, shoot your two GB 12 as a pair, leave and survive again. 228 00:14:55,520 --> 00:15:01,760 It's really efficient. I would say one step above Maple 229 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,440 flag. Maple flag is mostly designed 230 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:09,800 for combat ready or two shiplit guys and you can go and talk to 231 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,000 the guy say yeah, I want this pair to be targeted at this time 232 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:19,560 to see the Fred reaction jamming or whatever red flag is closer 233 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:25,160 to the real world and being aware that a red flag with 234 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:30,560 foreigners like us is not like a full US eyes only red flag. 235 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:35,800 So, I mean, let's be clear, it was at all levels. 236 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,200 Yeah, Speaking of which, then you you gave again a, a very 237 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:45,000 interesting description in Part 1 of your driving capabilities 238 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,280 in terms of, you know, the effects rather than you can go 239 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,600 into any specifics. But did, did you get validation 240 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:55,560 of those things in red flags? So or, or or Maple Flag, could 241 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:59,480 you sit down with people you'd flown against or the guys that 242 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,920 have been running the threat simulators and they say to you, 243 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:07,440 yeah, your, your gear worked. Yeah, it's, but we are. 244 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,840 You know that there's an electronic warfare Polygon 245 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:16,320 between Germany and France which is run by Americans, German and 246 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,360 French. You get some simulators and some 247 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:26,880 real systems like SS6, you get your SA6IN Red flag is not going 248 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,360 to be very different. That's that's the same. 249 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:35,800 So we are everybody has a kind of different level of jamming 250 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:40,840 and capabilities. We never play the war mode, 251 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:46,160 which is the the the latest one, because it might destroy the 252 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,240 system. And as everybody is gathering 253 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,400 information at the same time, I mean you keep your stuff, but 254 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,960 all this generation, I mean all school surfers to where I mean 255 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,640 everybody knows that it's easy to jam you. 256 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:01,480 You know that. I mean, you know, the the 257 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,640 distance for the fret reaction. You know what to do. 258 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,280 You know what your system is going to do. 259 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:11,319 So and and I felt at the time that these exercises, they were 260 00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:15,280 really designed to do that. I mean, be integrated in a in a 261 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:20,960 big Komeo, yes, but also you're targeted by your surface to air, 262 00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:27,720 you manoeuvre, you jam, you drop shafts, flares, if it's 263 00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:31,880 whatever. I mean, it's just a pattern of 264 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,640 reacting to the threat, which is the thing they want you to 265 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:37,240 learn. I mean, the learning experience 266 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,000 is OK. I see something, I move, I jam, 267 00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:46,360 I shaft, the lock is broken. I come back and and, and this is 268 00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:51,600 it. And there were no S300400500 at 269 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,520 the time. So we were not in this kind of 270 00:17:54,640 --> 00:18:00,320 more stealth capabilities. So yeah, it was really in line 271 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,800 with with what we were doing. And the Polygon was near Colmar 272 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,840 where I was based. I mean, you could go to 273 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:11,600 Pirmasans, do the SSE and whatever in Germany, then up up 274 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:13,840 in France. I mean, this Polygon was really 275 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:18,000 used a lot, even by the A10, the F16 in Spang Dalam. 276 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,920 And I mean they were, I mean it was booked all day, all day long 277 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,200 because it was in France and you could shaft, I mean, so you 278 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:29,240 could do a medium level combat mission and then it's there. 279 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,080 So first where you react, you shaft for real. 280 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:37,600 So but red flag was a lot of that, just not a a small band of 281 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,360 area in the North East of France, but something bigger. 282 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,040 Can you tell us, Benji, you said that it was a good preparation 283 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,400 for the sort of seven or eight years that were coming where you 284 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,720 would be working effectively as a NATO force in Afghanistan. 285 00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:55,880 Can you tell us the things that Red Fire gave you then that that 286 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,440 ease that process, or that gave you some early learning that you 287 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,320 didn't then have to do in a war war zone? 288 00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:11,640 Really, I, I, I think this is the, the mindset of the, the big 289 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:16,520 operations. I mean being integrated refuel, 290 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:21,440 but it's still an exercise. I would say wartime, it's more 291 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,840 complicated. I mean, a red flag is one piece 292 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,600 just to be confident with. I mean, all the SOP's is going 293 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,920 to look like that. The real world, I mean, it's all 294 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:38,040 over the place because there's not just one help to wear a 295 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,320 refuelling truck and 1 tanker and there is a spare on the 296 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:45,200 ground and it's easy. No, I mean you look at Libya, 297 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:50,280 you get maybe 5 or 6 tankers all the time all over the coast. 298 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:55,040 One is breaking and you need to go somewhere, but you need to 299 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,400 help. I mean, you need to be there in 300 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,160 your slot and there's another guy coming. 301 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:05,760 So I mean, this piece is the foundation of error operation, 302 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:11,800 but real time stuff doesn't look like that at all because you, 303 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,320 you, you can change it. I mean, let's say Afghanistan 304 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,960 trooping contact, you're somewhere you can ask the tanker 305 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,880 to, to go above. I mean you can move a tanker, 306 00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:22,120 you have the C2, it's moving there. 307 00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:25,280 When you move a tanker, I mean you destroy the situation 308 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,240 awareness of 5 or 6, two ships anywhere. 309 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:31,760 So they are there, they're looking and they're where's the 310 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,280 tanker. I have been just told the 311 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:39,520 tanker, the tanker is 100 miles to the West and say that's, I 312 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:40,840 would say a bit more complicated. 313 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:45,920 But if you're not familiar with the exercise of stuff as it is 314 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,760 done, it's not going to work. I mean mostly you will be 315 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,800 inefficient. You will spend your time chasing 316 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,240 tankers, a very small play time above the guys. 317 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:02,840 And so this is really I see it. I mean very all, all, all these 318 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:09,360 big, big missions with guys. I mean it's cool to also 319 00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:14,640 understand how the deals work. There are speeds, there are 320 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:16,120 loads. What do they need? 321 00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:18,280 I mean all the fighters are different. 322 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:21,160 Are you going to fly 400 knots, 300 knots, whatever? 323 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,120 What is what are they expecting in building pattern? 324 00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:27,560 What what is the base of speed to to get everybody embracing at 325 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,720 the same time? Can you re roll them? 326 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:35,320 I mean like a strike eagle? Can they do air to ground and 327 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,880 then reset pop up on the air to air? 328 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,800 So the first batch of 15 Charlies is out. 329 00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:47,800 I mean, it's understanding how the other work makes you better 330 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,240 up to the mission commander level when you need to integrate 331 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,240 all those forces. And then you're in a cast tag 332 00:21:54,240 --> 00:22:03,200 with AC one 30s, Reapers a 10s. I mean, so yeah, we, we are a 333 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,840 NATO country. We were still with NATO with the 334 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,280 the procedures. But these exercises, they are 335 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,200 very, very interesting for for us. 336 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:17,000 And that's why you have now the Atlantic Trident with UKUS and 337 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:21,560 France, because this is the right level to be to be 338 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,040 training, training together, to fight together. 339 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,080 I'd like to ask you another question which touches a little 340 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,200 on something you talked about in the first episode. 341 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,160 You described how your process for deciding to go or asking to 342 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,960 go to Mirage F1 CT was that you like the mission. 343 00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:43,360 So you were interested in the role and you didn't really want 344 00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:45,360 to do air to air. You wanted to do sort of air to 345 00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:49,040 ground the recce piece, something, something along those 346 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,960 lines. And this is not supposed to be a 347 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,720 funny question. I'm not trying to be rude to 348 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,480 you, but I would like to ask the question because I know fighter 349 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,200 pilots are very ego driven. But when you go to red flag then 350 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,880 and you're operating with the two mirrors 2000s and the F15 CS 351 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,600 and the F15 ES, and I don't know if the F20 twos were involved at 352 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,840 that point, but you're operating with all these very 353 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,560 sophisticated, very capable multi role platforms and you're 354 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:21,320 there in your little mirrors, F1 CCT. 355 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:27,400 Do you, is there a sense that you're or, or does anybody sort 356 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,560 of look down on you? Do you feel like you're look 357 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,120 down on? So you've got a a a rudimentary 358 00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:36,960 air to ground capability. You can drop GBU 12500 LB laser 359 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,240 got a bomb, you got your wrecky capability. 360 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,520 But you, you know, you're in an older aeroplane that has a lower 361 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:49,600 level of tech, let's say. Do you does that change the way 362 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,480 that you operate as a squadron? Do you? 363 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,240 Does it mean you have to perform better? 364 00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:56,120 Do you get the sense that you're judged? 365 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,440 It's a strange question, I know, but I'm just curious. 366 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:05,000 Yeah, it's, I mean find the F1 city, you, you know that you're 367 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,080 kind of always the weak sister in those kind of environment. 368 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,040 You're not going to push first in in the area, in the AOR, 369 00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:18,600 you're going to be the last one. Our goal first was I would say 370 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,680 not to mess it up. I mean, being at the the right 371 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:28,360 level is just no safety stuff. You don't enter Area 51, you 372 00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:32,480 don't smoke a farm and drop infrared on a real farm in in 373 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,080 the range. I mean, all this kind of stuff. 374 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,880 Yeah, because you can be fine. And whatever you try to speak 375 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,360 English, which for French is complicated. 376 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,080 So I mean, don't mess it up on the radio. 377 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:48,880 Go there, destroy the right stuff, come back, everybody's 378 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,240 happy. And so I would say it's the 379 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,640 baseline, but normal. Then of course, I mean when you 380 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,480 are at the last chance and you see a new guy training on the 381 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:06,040 A10 with five times the load of Mark 82's dumb bombs and you're 382 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,840 looking up at the A10 because you have a small aircraft there. 383 00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:17,360 Yeah, it's not the same world. And and I get it after AGB 12 on 384 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:20,360 target on time, this is what I can deliver. 385 00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:23,600 So I'm going to try to do that with the best of my 386 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,160 capabilities. And I didn't feel any 387 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:32,840 frustration with that because we were part of the the same gang. 388 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:38,640 And when it was real time, I mean the real operation, I mean, 389 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,680 if I had, if I felt that we were inefficients or not adapted to 390 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,800 the theatre because we were too weak, it was time to to be out 391 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,760 and just do a, an air tattoo and say a farewell to the F1 and 392 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,360 gone. And it was not the case. 393 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,640 I mean, until the the last year of the F1, we were still 394 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,800 deployed because there there was a need for that. 395 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:07,840 I mean, three flights are OK, but Afghanistan, Libya, Mali, 396 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:14,680 you, you still need Ricky, you still need aircraft doing that. 397 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:21,320 So it's not high intensity stuff, of course, but I knew it. 398 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,200 And in the meantime, what do you want to do? 399 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,920 You want to leave things? I I wanted to leave things. 400 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:31,480 I mean deploy, be with buddies. I mean, see other stuff. 401 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,680 I mean, let's say in shadow, the last deployment we did some 402 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,800 training with the Chadian Sukhoi 25 Frogfoot with Ukrainian 403 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,440 pilots flying them for closer support incorporation. 404 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,880 I mean, that's, is that fun? Well, that's something new. 405 00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:51,400 And this world is kind of repetitive. 406 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,360 I mean, can you do 30 years of fighter pilot stuff? 407 00:26:55,360 --> 00:26:57,800 No. First you're going to be too 408 00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,720 old. You're interacting with young 409 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,560 people and it's kind of the same. 410 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,480 I mean, you're going to get new stuff, element mounted queuing 411 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,040 system, a new pod, a new or whatever, but it's still the 412 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,440 same. So you're getting to a point 413 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,280 where you're sharp. This is OK. 414 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:21,360 And I really felt that the fighter pilot lights was a bit 415 00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:24,840 more than just the flying, just the technology, just I mean, it 416 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,600 was bonding with the guys, learning, sharing experience and 417 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,360 let's say on a weekend, do something in Vegas all together. 418 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,320 I mean it, it's part of the, it's part of the job more than 419 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:43,360 being kind of a geek, a nerd and, and just be there ready for 420 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:49,160 no, I, I didn't feel it. We, we knew the spot we were in 421 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,680 honestly. And I think our goal is to take 422 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,600 advantage like a fighter pilot to take advantage of whatever 423 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:01,040 you have to make it happen the more efficiently.