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Well everybody, welcome to 
Stronger Weekly brought to you 

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by Purest Nutrition. 
I'm your host, Jesse Carajet. 

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Thank you so much for being 
here. 

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Hope you had a great weekend 
today. 

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We've got a great show for you. 
We have Ben Westhoff joining the

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program. 
Ben is a nationally known best 

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selling investigative 
journalist, speaker, filmmaker 

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and author. 
He wrote the book Fentanyl Inc, 

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which really just blew up and 
exposed the whole fentanyl topic

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in America. 
He's appeared on The Joe Rogan 

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Experience as work has also 
appeared in the New York Times, 

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the Library of Congress, The 
Atlantic, the Guardian, the Wall

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Street Journal, Los Angeles 
Times, NPR, Rolling Stone, Daily

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Beast, New York, Forbes, Vice, 
Oxford American, Pitchfork and 

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others. 
So in other words, he's an 

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absolute gem and his work is 
absolutely incredible. 

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So right now what we're going to
focus on in this episode is a 

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documentary film that is coming 
out soon. 

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If you're listening this in 
April, it'll be coming out 

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hopefully at some point in May 
or June. 

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And the film is called 
antagonist and then is tackling 

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medication assisted treatment 
for addiction, specifically 

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looking at a miracle medication 
called naltrexone, which if you 

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listen to the show, we talk 
about it a lot. 

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I've used it. 
It helps people break the 

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addiction of not only alcohol 
use disorder, but so many of the

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other really devastating 
addictions out. 

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There. 
This movie, this film which I've

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seen, it really unpacks, 
unfortunately, all of the issues

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that it's taken to get this 
medication to the masses, lobby 

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groups trying to suppress it, 
nefarious actors trying to 

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basically debunk its efficacy 
for no other reason than greed 

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and profit. 
It's a great film. 

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I'm going to link to it in this 
episode and I had a great 

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conversation with Ben and I 
can't wait for you to listen to 

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it. 
But before we do, we're going to

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start with this week's health 
and fitness headlines and then 

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Ben is waiting for any other 
side. 

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Let's dive in. 
All right. 

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Folks, let's jump in. 
First up, in a move that 

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surprised even long time 
advocates, President Trump 

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signed an executive order this 
week directing the FDA to fast 

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track review of certain 
psychedelic drugs like 

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psilocybin, ibogaine, MDMA, and 
even LSD, all for treating 

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serious mental illnesses. 
So the order issues quote 

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national Priority voucher to 
psychedelics that already hold 

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FDA breakthrough therapy 
designations, slashing review 

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timelines for months to just a 
matter of weeks. 

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So in other words, this speeds 
up dramatically the process. 

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It also commits $50,000,000 to 
ibogaine research, a compound 

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from an African shrub that 
veterans say have dramatically 

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transformed their PTSD and 
addiction recovery and opens a 

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right to try pathway for 
desperately ill patients. 

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The White House notes over 
14,000,000 American adults 

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currently live with a serious 
mental health illness and 

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millions aren't responding to 
existing treatments like 

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medications and therapy. 
Navy SEAL veteran Marcus Mutrell

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was at the signing and told the 
president, quote, you're going 

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to save a lot of lives through 
it. 

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It absolutely changed my life 
for the better. 

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One important notes. 
Ibogaine has been linked to 

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serious heart arrhythmias, and 
researchers are urging proper 

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clinical trials before 
widespread access. 

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As Doctor Frederick Barrett of 
the Johns Hopkins Center for 

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Psychedelic and Consciousness 
Research put a quote. 

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If the executive order can pave 
the way for doing objective 

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scientific research with this 
compound, it would help us 

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understand whether it is truly a
better psychedelic therapy than 

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others. 
No psychedelic is FDA approved 

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yet. 
But for the millions of 

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Americans for whom current 
mental health treatments have 

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failed, this is a real opening. 
And millions of veterans are 

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advocating for this. 
You have to trust their 

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judgement. 
People are saying it works. 

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This feels like a safe, 
efficient pathway forward to 

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explore it in a more serious 
way. 

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I'm all for it. 
Let's go. 

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Next up, are you training at the
right time of day? 

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And I'm asking not just for your
schedule, but for your biology, 

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because it really may matter. 
So a new randomized controlled 

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trial published in the journal 
Open Heart found that aligning 

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your workout timing with your 
natural chronotype, in other 

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words whether you are a morning 
person or an evening person, can

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dramatically reduce 
cardiovascular disease risk 

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overtime. 
So researchers studied 150 

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adults aged 40 to 60, all with 
at least one cardiovascular risk

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factor. 
Those who exercised In Sync with

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their internal clocks saw a 
greater reduction than blood 

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pressure, fasting blood sugar 
and LDL cholesterol than those 

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who trained at the wrong time of
day. 

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Sleep quality also improved when
exercise timing aligned with 

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natural chronotype. 
So the researchers call this 

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concept quote chrono exercise 
scheduling workouts around your 

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biological clock, not just your 
calendar. 

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Good luck with this name. 
Doctor Rajeev Sankaranianian of 

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the British Cardiovascular 
Society called it quote highly 

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relevant to preventative 
cardiology and set a simple 

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chrono type assessment could 
meaningfully improve adherence 

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and outcome. 
So take away if you're 

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listening, figure out whether 
you're a morning lark or a night

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owl, then train accordingly. 
Your heart may respond better 

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than you expect. 
And if you're not sure how to 

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make that assessment, it's 
purely subjective. 

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Do you feel more energized? 
Do you feel more productive in 

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the morning or the afternoon? 
Align your exercise with that. 

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And it sounds like based on this
study, you could be dramatically

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lowering your risk for future 
cardiovascular problems. 

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Next up, some news on fasting. 
Very interesting finding here. 

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Look, scientists have known for 
decades that intermittent 

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fasting can extend a lifespan. 
What they couldn't explain fully

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was the why. 
Well, a new study from UT 

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Southwestern published in Nature
Communications may finally have 

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that answer. 
And it's not what you are 

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expecting. 
It's not the fasting period 

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itself. 
In other words, it's not the 

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period of time when you're not 
eating that's doing the heavy 

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lifting in terms of health 
benefits. 

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It's actually the refeeding 
phase. 

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What happens metabolically when 
you reintroduce food and start 

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eating again? 
Fasting extended lifespan by 

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about 41%, but when researchers 
blocked the metabolic reset that

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normally occurs during 
refeeding, keeping the fat 

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burning switch on even after 
eating resumed, the lifespan 

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benefit disappeared entirely. 
What the hell am I talking 

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about? 
Let me explain. 

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So lead researcher Dr. Peter 
Douglas said quote our 

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discoveries shift the focus 
toward a neglected side of the 

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metabolic coin, the refeeding 
phase. 

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The health promoting effects of 
intermittent fasting are 

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dependent on how the metabolic 
machinery recalibrates during 

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the transition back to a fed 
state. 

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So the part of fasting that's 
actually doing the work might be

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when you're eating again. 
If you practice intermittent 

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fasting, how you break your fast
may matter just as much, if not 

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more than the fast itself. 
So practical stepways, don't 

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spike your blood sugar, don't 
pound a bunch of unhealthy foods

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and carbohydrates and sugar. 
Come off of your fast slowly and

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let the metabolic transition 
happen cleanly and responsibly. 

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So very interesting factoid 
there. 

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If you're already fasting, be 
more thoughtful about how you 

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introduce food back into your 
system. 

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That's where all the magic 
happens. 

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Real quick folks, let's talk 
about protein. 

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Protein bars specifically. 
Look, as a busy parent and 

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professional, the hardest part 
of eating well isn't the meals 

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themselves. 
It's eating on the go. 

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It's everything in between. 
It's the 2:00 PM meeting that 

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runs long. 
The school pickup, the chaos of 

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life, the workout that you're 
just trying to get to. 

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That's where nutrition falls 
apart for most people. 

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It's in the busyness and in a 
past life I used to just grab 

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any protein bar, whatever was 
convenient, gas station, you 

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name it, and I was not eating 
pure, I was not eating clean, 

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which is why I'm fired up about 
my partner Purest new protein 

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bars. 
They're absolutely amazing 

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natural ingredients, just like 
everything they do. 

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No artificial junk. 
And honestly, they're absolutely

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delicious. 
I just went to Florida for a 

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trip with my family. 
I think in one day I might have 

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had four of these bad boys and I
felt fine about it. 

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But here's what really gets me 
about these things. 

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I love it. 
They are clean enough that I can

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actually give them to my kids 
without a second thought. 

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And my kids love them. 
That's the bar that I hold every

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product to now. 
Is it healthy enough to give to 

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my kids? 
And these protein bars are, 

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they're awesome. 
So if you're constantly on the 

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go but not willing to compromise
on what you eat, purest high 

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protein bars are amazing. 
They need to be in your bag, in 

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your car, wherever you are on 
the go because they're great. 

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So you can use code stronger 
weekly. 

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Go to purestnutrition.com and 
grab yourself some of these 

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protein bars. 
You will not regret it. 

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Clean fuel real ingredients 0 
Compromise. 

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Next up from the Common Sense 
Files, a quick message from 

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emergency departments and 
neurosurgeons across the 

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country. 
If you've been riding an E bike 

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or E scooter without a helmet, 
possibly after a few drinks and 

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you feel good about it, you 
shouldn't dumb move. 

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Neurosurgeons would like a word 
with you. 

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So a new study published in the 
journal Neurosurgery analyzed 

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trauma data from Bellevue 
Hospital Center in New York City

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from 2018 to 2023. 
In 2018, E bikes and E scooters 

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accounted for about 8% of all 
major head trauma cases that 

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came from things like bicycles 
and or motorcycles by 2023. 

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So five years later, 1 and 2. 
So half of these head trauma 

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injuries are coming from these E
scooters and E bikes. 

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Just some stats here, 30% of the
injuries suffered a traumatic 

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brain injury, 26% had skull or 
facial injuries, 50% required 

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surgery, nearly 70% 
hospitalized. 

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And this is key. 
About 20% of patients were drunk

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during the time of their injury.
So one in five, and let's face 

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it, we've all thought it when 
you're walking around in the 

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city. 
I've been to places like 

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Nashville and Denver and New 
York City and you see these, 

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these E bikes just on the side 
of the road. 

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No user manual, no caution. 
People can just walk up, scan an

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app, jump on it after happy 
hour. 

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Nothing pairs quite so well like
zipping around 20 mph through 

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city traffic after happy hour. 
Who'd have thought that this 

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could be a problem? 
So Doctor Hanna Weiss, A 

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neurosurgery resident at NYU 
Grossman School Medicine, said, 

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quote, our study shows that 
micro mobility injuries are 

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producing very serious brain and
spinal trauma injuries that 

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demand neurosurgical care at a 
scale we just haven't seen 

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before. 
So folks, if you're going to 

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ride one of these things, please
know what you're doing. 

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Wear a helmet, drive slowly. 
And it's probably not a good 

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idea to be drunk while you're 
doing it. 

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Just call a freaking Uber. 
It's a lot cheaper than a trip 

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to the ER and it's essentially 
not worth risking your life. 

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And last for this week, Harvard 
just proved that humans are 

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still evolving, but faster than 
we thought. 

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So a Harvard LED study published
this past Tuesday in Nature 

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analyzed ancient DNA from nearly
1600 individuals across western 

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Eurasia. 
The largest ancient DNA study 

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ever conducted. 
The team identified 479 specific

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gene variants that were strongly
selected for or against over the

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last 10,000 years. 
And critically, natural 

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selection did not slow down over
time. 

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It accelerated after humans 
transitioned from hunter 

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gatherers to farmers. 
In other words, this whole 

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thing, this whole natural 
selection, evolution, all those 

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things speed up during a very, 
very small period of time during

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that transition from hunter 
gathering to farmers. 

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So traits evolving most rapidly 
included skin pigmentation, 

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immune function, blood type, 
disease resistance and metabolic

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characteristics. 
Genes associated with type 2 

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diabetes and schizophrenia also 
showed signs of selection. 

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What does that mean? 
This suggests that what makes us

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vulnerable to those conditions 
today may have once offered a 

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00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,880
real survival advantage in a 
different world. 

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So lead author Doctor Ali Akbari
says quote, instead of searching

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00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,520
for the scars natural selection 
leaves in present day genomes 

235
00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,480
using simple models and 
assumptions, we can now let the 

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00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:30,120
data speak for itself. 
So this single paper double S 

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00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,680
the entire ancient human DNA 
literature. 

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00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:34,760
What does this mean? 
Many of your disease 

239
00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,400
vulnerabilities today may be 
evolutionary leftovers from 

240
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,600
10,000 years ago, adaptations 
that once kept your ancestors 

241
00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,320
alive. 
Understanding those forces is 

242
00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,880
how we eventually learn to work 
with human biology instead of 

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against it. 
So interesting stuff to close 

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00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:55,440
there. 
That is it for this week's 

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00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,960
health and fitness headlines. 
Ben Westhoff joins me in just a 

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00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:00,600
bit hanging for that amazing 
conversation. 

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00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:05,720
We'll see you there. 
All right, everybody, welcome 

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00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,720
back to the show. 
I'm here with Ben Westhoff. 

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I couldn't be more excited to 
have Ben on. 

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00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:11,720
How you doing Ben? 
Good. 

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00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:13,680
Thanks, Jesse. 
Yeah, great to be here. 

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It's a it's a it's an honor to 
have you because I caught your 

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00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,640
episode. 
What was it 6 years ago on, on 

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00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,520
JRE on the Joe Rogan show? 
That's right. 

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00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,360
I remember that you were, you 
had written a book, fentanyl ink

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00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,600
and doing some touring and what 
not. 

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00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,240
What was that experience like on
the Rogan podcast? 

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00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,760
I have to ask. 
I mean, it felt like the biggest

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00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,000
day of my life. 
I mean, it was like a secret 

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00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,280
location, you know? 
He was in the Valley in LA back 

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00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:45,840
then, hadn't moved to Austin. 
But I don't know. 

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00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:47,840
It was, it was this giant man 
cave. 

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00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,600
It was an experience unlike any 
other. 

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00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:54,240
Well, I wish I could replicate 
that somehow here virtually on 

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00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,640
stronger weekly, but I'm not on 
his level. 

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00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,920
But maybe one day we'll see. 
But then I'm going to start 

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00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:05,680
here. 
So you've you have explored and 

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00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:09,480
investigated and reported on 
some really interesting topics. 

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00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,480
You know, you're an 
investigative journalist and 

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00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,520
author, a filmmaker. 
We're going to talk about that. 

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00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:20,080
But these topics, fentanyl 
addiction, naltrexone, right, 

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00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,240
medication assisted treatment 
for alcohol disorder, even like 

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00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,280
hip hop culture. 
I know that was, you know, some 

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00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,440
of the early projects that you 
did, but I'll ask it this way. 

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Why do you do what you do and 
how did you get into this world?

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00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,440
Yeah, I mean, I used to be a 
Music Writer, so, you know, I 

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00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,360
wrote about hip hop not just 
because it was the music I love,

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00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,280
but because there's such 
interesting stories. 

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00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,120
You know, eventually I started 
doing more like investigative 

280
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:52,160
stories and going places other 
people didn't want to go and 

281
00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:58,240
kind of where drugs and music 
overlapped was a big focus. 

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00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,880
And I found out that at raves, I
was covering the rave scene and 

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00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:07,000
all these people were dying from
ecstasy pills, supposedly. 

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00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,640
But I investigated and found out
that these pills were almost all

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00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,840
cut with fentanyl or, or with 
other, you know, drugs no one 

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00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,280
had heard of. 
And this was at a time when I 

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00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,240
didn't even know what fentanyl 
was. 

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00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:25,000
And so I went down the rabbit 
hole with that and ended up 

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00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:28,800
investigating going undercover 
in these Chinese drug 

290
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,600
operations. 
And that sort of launched my, 

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00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,800
my, my book in my sort of post 
book, you know, interest and 

292
00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,440
authority when it comes to the 
subject of fentanyl and opioid 

293
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:42,760
addiction. 
Real quick, I spend a lot of 

294
00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,640
time on what I eat and how I 
train, and I'm embarrassed to 

295
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,320
say I have not put enough focus 
on my men's grooming products, 

296
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,720
which is why I'm so stoked to 
have Based Body Works. 

297
00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,000
As a regular sponsor of this 
show, I use their texture 

298
00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:56,800
essentials. 
It's a texture powder that 

299
00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,480
completely changed the game. 
For years, I would just grab 

300
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,600
whatever junk was sitting at a 
convenience store like Target, 

301
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,200
whatever gel, put it in there 
and you get that helmet hair. 

302
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,920
This texture powder is amazing. 
It's got clean, natural 

303
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,120
ingredients, no sulfates, no 
para bounds. 

304
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,000
You're putting this thing on 
your scalp. 

305
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,960
You do not want junk seeping in 
its natural ingredients. 

306
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,760
But I love the most about it is 
how durable and flexible it is. 

307
00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:20,080
It takes just a couple of 
seconds. 

308
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,240
I can pop my hat off and just 
reconfigure my hair and it 

309
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:24,480
looks. 
Good to go. 

310
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,960
I want to look like I care 
without looking like I care. 

311
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,760
So I love Base Body Works and I 
love their texture powder. 

312
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,600
So if you want to get your Based
Body Works texture powder, you 

313
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:39,240
can go to basedbodyworks.com. 
Again, that's base bodyworks.com

314
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,000
and use code stronger weekly for
20% off and if you order now, 

315
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you get a free premium toiletry 
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316
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time. 
Base bodyworks.com code work 

317
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,560
stronger weekly and you can 
change the game. 

318
00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:53,120
Give it a shot. 
Yeah. 

319
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,640
So from learning about in the 
awareness that people are dying 

320
00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,800
from fentanyl to throwing 
yourself into undercover 

321
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,160
fentanyl rings and going 
overseas, that I'm sure there's 

322
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,400
a lot that happened in between 
there. 

323
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:09,119
But had you been an 
investigative journalist prior 

324
00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,720
to that, or did that kind of 
push you into that realm and 

325
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,200
then with what you learned, you 
became an author afterwards? 

326
00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:18,000
Well, I mean, you know, I've 
been an investigative 

327
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,000
journalist, but not 
investigating the things you 

328
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,960
might think. 
Like there was this rapper, I 

329
00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:24,680
don't know if you ever heard of 
him from Houston. 

330
00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,720
His name is Riff Raff and he's 
this guy. 

331
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:29,800
He like talk. 
He's white, but he talks with 

332
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,680
his super thick accent. 
He's got tattoos all over his 

333
00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,960
body's face, and he's just like 
a walking meme. 

334
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,360
And everyone wanted to know, 
like, is this guy real? 

335
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,040
Or is he just, like, a 
caricature? 

336
00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,200
And when he goes home, he just 
talks like a white guy from the 

337
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:48,840
suburbs, you know, when the 
cameras are off. 

338
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,040
And so I actually, like, did a 
full investigation of this guy, 

339
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,200
like talked to everyone he'd 
ever met and, you know, 

340
00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,080
interviewed him and went all, 
you know, all the way down the 

341
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,200
rabbit hole with that and found 
out that's just who he was. 

342
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,880
So that puts you on that course.
Of being a. 

343
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,360
Journalist or investigative one 
anyway, So when I I want to 

344
00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:12,440
obviously talk about the the 
naltrexone piece, what you're 

345
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:14,680
working on now in your projects,
because it hits home for me. 

346
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,320
But just to stay on that the 
fentanyl and that then the book 

347
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,680
that you wrote fentanyl ankle 
just a moment longer since you 

348
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:22,760
published the book. 
What year did you publish that 

349
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:27,320
book, Ben? 
2019. 2019 OK, So 7:00-ish years

350
00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:31,920
or so, how do you think America 
or the world in general has 

351
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,840
responded to what's kind of 
changing as it relates to 

352
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,240
fentanyl either here or across 
the world? 

353
00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,760
Have you seen any difference? 
Well, things got a lot worse 

354
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,680
since then, particularly in the 
US and Canada. 

355
00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,960
Thankfully other countries 
haven't really been touched by 

356
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,840
fentanyl all that badly though I
think because of the strong 

357
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,520
profit motive for drug 
traffickers, this can and 

358
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,240
probably still will happen. 
But the US, the the overdose 

359
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:04,480
deaths really peaked from 
fentanyl around like 2023 and 

360
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,680
thankfully it's not as bad since
then. 

361
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,960
But we're still at historically 
bad highs. 

362
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,360
And you know, if you think about
how many people die from from 

363
00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:16,000
drugs and alcohol for that 
matter. 

364
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,360
But when it comes to opioids, 
we're still in like a historical

365
00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:22,360
crisis. 
Do you think there's anything we

366
00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:24,880
can do about it? 
Well, I think medication 

367
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,840
assisted treatment like we're 
going to talk about is really, 

368
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,440
really important. 
And if we can get half of 

369
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,520
addicted users to be on 
medication assisted treatment, 

370
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,840
you know, we would cut the death
rate by a huge number. 

371
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,000
And I think that's one way 
forward. 

372
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,520
Yeah, I'm, I'm sifting around in
here my notes. 

373
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,640
I had those statistics handy. 
I want to say you could probably

374
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,560
keep me honest. 
Oh here it is, last stats on 

375
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,280
record. 
So I'm assuming this is 202580 

376
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:58,360
thousand opioid debts still a 
year and 140,000 alcohol use 

377
00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:00,840
disorder or alcoholism. 
Does that sound right to you? 

378
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,560
Yeah. 
Okay, let's chat about what we 

379
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:05,440
just talked about medication 
assisted treatment. 

380
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,280
So the new film that you're 
working on, you want to give a 

381
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:09,760
give a little overview of the 
film? 

382
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,200
Yeah, it's called antagonist. 
And basically it's about how 

383
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:20,280
naltrexone was supposed to be 
this revolution in addiction 

384
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,880
medicine. 
And I talked to, you know, 

385
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,440
dozens and dozens of people 
whose lives were changed. 

386
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,520
But at the same time, it's never
been taken seriously, and 

387
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,000
doctors don't know about it. 
You know, the media, when they 

388
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,560
write about it, just completely 
disparaging of it. 

389
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:43,240
And there's all these sort of 
like outside interests, these 

390
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:48,040
like big money sort of interests
that are basically trying to 

391
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,400
suppress it. 
And that's what the film is all 

392
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,080
about. 
Yeah, let's go into it. 

393
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,400
So I watched the film. 
I, I texted you there, so I 

394
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,040
emailed you one of the other. 
I watched the film on Wednesday 

395
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,200
in anticipation of meeting you 
and I, and I absolutely love the

396
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,400
film and just how it was made. 
But I also, I found myself 

397
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:09,080
getting almost frustrated when 
you were unpacking some of the 

398
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,040
corruption, some of the greed, 
some of the Pharmaceutical 

399
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,760
industry stuff. 
So if I may, let's get into that

400
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,120
and I'll start here. 
You mentioned the name of the 

401
00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:21,280
film is antagonist, but there 
are types of medications called 

402
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,200
agonists. 
Can you explain the difference 

403
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:28,760
and maybe the two or three 
primary agonist type medications

404
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,280
that have been widely pushed and
accepted? 

405
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,080
And then we'll kind of get into 
what an antagonist is like 

406
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:35,560
naltrexone. 
But can you explain what an 

407
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,640
agonist is and kind of the 
history of addiction treatment, 

408
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:43,160
at least in America? 
There are three FDA approved 

409
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:48,000
medications for opioid use 
disorder and you mentioned 

410
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,960
naltrexone, and the other two 
are methadone and also 

411
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,840
buprenorphine, which is most 
commonly known as Suboxone. 

412
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:02,200
And the problem with methadone 
and buprenorphine, even though 

413
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,520
they've helped, you know, 
millions and millions of people 

414
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,240
save millions of lives, but 
they're not for everyone. 

415
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,520
Because for one thing, they're 
addicting opioids in themselves.

416
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:19,160
So if you are trying to quit 
heroin or quit fentanyl and you 

417
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,400
start taking methadone, that's 
great because you won't have to 

418
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,760
like, buy your drugs on the 
street. 

419
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:27,960
You know, you get them from a 
clinic. 

420
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,560
It's regulated, it's affordable.
You don't have to like, rob and 

421
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:32,680
steal. 
You're not going to get 

422
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:37,240
adulterated drugs, but it's 
still an opioid and you're still

423
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,800
going to be addicted to it. 
And you know, from a harm 

424
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:45,440
reduction standpoint, it's 
certainly a great benefit to 

425
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,600
society, but a lot of people 
don't want to go that route. 

426
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,680
They want something that is not 
addictive. 

427
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:57,760
And so the the agonists are 
buprenorphine, suboxone and 

428
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,640
methadone. 
And a lot of the film spend 

429
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,400
explaining why these drugs have 
taken hold in society. 

430
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,840
Where is naltrexone is not. 
And, and that's one of the the 

431
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,560
key things that just was so 
discouraging to learn. 

432
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,680
And when you look at the history
is that by keeping people who 

433
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:23,000
are addicted on something like 
methadone and the way that it's 

434
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,600
administered and how it has to 
be administered, they have to 

435
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,440
keep coming back for that 
treatment on a regular basis. 

436
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,280
And that's, that's key because 
in addition to getting the 

437
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,040
treatment, my understanding, and
maybe you can correct me on 

438
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,880
this, is the folks that are 
actually funding that treatment 

439
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,640
that are, you know, giving that 
treatment out there also then 

440
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,280
giving those patients other 
types of treatment, other types 

441
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,400
of, you know, therapy, things 
like that. 

442
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,360
And they're incentivized to keep
them coming back because then 

443
00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:55,160
they can turn around and bill 
say like Medicaid, things like 

444
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,560
that, so they can make money. 
You, you might correct some of 

445
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,480
the details there. 
But the, the take away for me 

446
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,680
was this other drug, this other 
medication started to emerge and

447
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,320
it's naltrexone. 
And it allowed people to either 

448
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,760
get a shot where they can come 
back once a month or just take a

449
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,320
pill every day. 
But they were intentionally 

450
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,920
disparaging and suppressing the 
efficacy of that because they 

451
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:20,040
were incentivized by financial 
gain by keeping them with the 

452
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,720
old medication, which wasn't the
best for the patient. 

453
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,520
It's my best attempt. 
Yeah, I think you did a good 

454
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:30,000
job, absolutely. 
You've probably seen long lines 

455
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,760
for methadone clinics. 
You know, in a lot of urban 

456
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,120
areas, you'll sometimes see a 
line like 6:00 AM in the 

457
00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:40,720
morning, all these people lined 
up to to get their methadone 

458
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,280
just on the street. 
And it's like, you know, this is

459
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,160
pretty crazy. 
And it's because methadone can 

460
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,600
only be dispensed in these very 
particular unique clinics. 

461
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,560
And there's no other medication 
like that at all where a doctor 

462
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,960
can't prescribe it. 
You have to go to this building 

463
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,520
to get it. 
And there's been a whole 

464
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:06,720
industry that's come up around 
methadone for that reason. 

465
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,200
You know, it is like the perfect
product. 

466
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,840
It's it's addictive. 
Everyone has to come back every 

467
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:17,560
single day to get it. 
And there's, you know, not only 

468
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,600
an industry, but there's a big 
lobby behind it too. 

469
00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:25,480
And this this lobby promotes the
interests of methadone, the 

470
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,440
methadone clinics, the 
profitability. 

471
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,360
And as you mentioned, this is to
the exclusion of naltrexone. 

472
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,240
You know, these these clinics 
could have naltrexone, but 

473
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,000
almost none of them do. 
And one of the moments in the 

474
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,920
film is me confronting the head 
of this lobby for methadone. 

475
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,320
And I say, well, why don't you 
guys have naltrexone at these 

476
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,960
clinics? 
And then this was the moment 

477
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,000
that I thought I was going to 
have a gotcha. 

478
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,600
You know, I was going to say, 
well, it's because you make more

479
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,800
money off methadone and you 
can't make money off naltrexone 

480
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:03,560
like that. 
And I thought I had this big 

481
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,680
gaunchy moment, but then he just
admitted it. 

482
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,840
He was like, yeah, you said it. 
The reason? 

483
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,640
Because it's more profitable. 
So. 

484
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:12,320
So there you go. 
Yeah. 

485
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,160
I, when I was, I was driving my 
truck because I was listening to

486
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,600
like the second-half of it on my
commute and I, and when I heard 

487
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,400
him just flat out say it, I, I 
in my head, I went, holy, holy 

488
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,920
crap, he just said it. 
He actually just said it. 

489
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,320
It's a big moment. 
I mean, I got to give them 

490
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,520
credit for not trying to to lie 
about her beat around the Bush. 

491
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,120
So yeah. 
A quick reaction and a question 

492
00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:33,640
about the urban areas that you 
described. 

493
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:35,840
But like another thing that was 
going through my head is like by

494
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,080
only administering at this 
medic, this methadone in one 

495
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,080
location, those locations are 
normally centrally located to 

496
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,360
where a lot of the people live, 
sometimes on the streets. 

497
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,240
It it occurred to me that you 
are, you are locking them into 

498
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,920
those very areas where they have
access to the drugs that got 

499
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,200
them hooked. 
So not only is it not good for 

500
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,280
them that they have to keep 
coming back every day, you are 

501
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,880
keeping them logistically 
planted where they are most 

502
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,400
likely to be harmed. 
And it it doesn't, it kind of 

503
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,680
tethers them to that location 
where I think what's most 

504
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,080
healthy for them is to get away 
from those environments and get 

505
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,400
away from those people that are,
that are almost triggering for 

506
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:10,920
their addiction. 
Does that make sense? 

507
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,240
Yeah. 
And you know, for the film, we 

508
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,480
go to one of these locations in 
San Francisco, you know, which 

509
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,200
is kind of become Ground Zero 
for these like open air drug 

510
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,520
markets. 
And this methadone clinic in 

511
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,440
South of Market neighborhood in 
San Francisco is right in the 

512
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,320
middle of one of these drug 
zones, these open air drug 

513
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,480
markets. 
And upon leaving the click, 

514
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,160
these are people who are trying 
to kick opioids, trying to like 

515
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,920
turn their lives around. 
And right when they walk out the

516
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:47,480
door, there's guys trying to 
sell them fentanyl for $5. 

517
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,960
You know, it's just the worst 
temptation imaginable. 

518
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,080
Yeah, it's heartbreaking. 
And it's some of the the 

519
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,680
subjects, some of the people you
interviewed were so honest and 

520
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,400
vulnerable with you about their 
sincere efforts to get clean and

521
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,840
just picture them having to wait
in line in that type of 

522
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,480
environment. 
And then to have people praying 

523
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,880
on them, essentially to just 
sell them drugs. 

524
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,040
It's heartbreaking that that's 
the situation. 

525
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,680
But in your film, you spent time
on the street and you were, you 

526
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,120
were right there kind of Ground 
Zero. 

527
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,240
What was it like to be just kind
of walking around in San 

528
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,040
Francisco and talking to these 
people in the depths of 

529
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:24,960
addiction? 
What was that like for you? 

530
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,080
Well, we were advised to get 
security, to bring security. 

531
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,920
So we had two security guards, 
you know, mainly, I think just 

532
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,800
to make sure our equipment 
wasn't like our video equipment 

533
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,840
wasn't stolen or anything. 
It, it, it is kind of shocking 

534
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,560
because I lived in San Francisco
for a while, but this was, you 

535
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,080
know, 20 years ago. 
And so now these are like the 

536
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:54,320
most touristy areas, you know, 
like right by the Union Square, 

537
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,880
where they have all the big 
fancy shops and everything, and 

538
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,640
there's all of these drug 
transactions taking place in 

539
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,200
broad daylight. 
And it was definitely shocking. 

540
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:10,480
No, I bet, I bet what? 
What put you on this topic? 

541
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,800
Like what? 
What introduced naltrexone to 

542
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,680
you? 
How did you become aware of it? 

543
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,280
Well, I wrote my book fencing 
the Link, and then I went on 

544
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:24,240
book tour and you know, normally
a book tour, everybody is like 

545
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,240
lining up, take pictures with 
you. 

546
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,880
Have you signed their books? 
You know, they treat you, you 

547
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,280
know, like a rock star. 
But when I did a reading in 

548
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:41,040
Saint Louis, I had the opposite 
experience with a guy named 

549
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:45,840
Percy Menzies who ended up being
the focus of my film. 

550
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,800
And what Percy told me was 
basically that I had it all 

551
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,320
wrong in my book when it came to
addiction treatment. 

552
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,240
You know, I didn't, I like don't
even mention, barely mention the

553
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,960
word naltrexone in the whole 
book and just say that like 

554
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,520
methadone is the gold standard. 
And you know, he said, you know,

555
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,640
you've got that wrong. 
Methadone is not the gold 

556
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,360
standard. 
I need to bring you up to speed 

557
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:16,120
on this thing called naltrexone.
But he was so kind of brash and 

558
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,080
like just really dismissive of 
me on my big night. 

559
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,840
And I was kind of not too happy 
to hear all this. 

560
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,600
But I took his card and 
eventually I thought, well, 

561
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,400
maybe this guy is on to 
something. 

562
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:36,240
And so I reached out to him and,
you know, he's, he's a clinic 

563
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,360
owner here in Saint Louis. 
And they see people right off 

564
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,360
the streets. 
You know, he sees thousands of 

565
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,760
patients a month at his clinic, 
which is called ARCA, the 

566
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:51,080
Assisted Recovery Centers of 
America, and you know, for, for 

567
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,560
alcohol and for opioids and 
other drug addictions. 

568
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:02,080
And he is just obsessed with 
naltrexone unlike anyone I've 

569
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,040
ever heard in my whole life. 
And you know, you can be talking

570
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,200
to this guy about anything, you 
know, the weather or religion or

571
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,160
what have you. 
And eventually conversation will

572
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,120
go back to naltrexone. 
And eventually after talking to 

573
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,840
him for a while, I was like, 
well, this guy is really on a 

574
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,280
crusade and he's really made it 
his life's mission. 

575
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,760
So it inspired me to find out 
everything I could about 

576
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:28,360
naltrexone. 
OK. 

577
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,360
And as an investigative 
journalist and reporter and and 

578
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,600
film maker, how does one go 
about that? 

579
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,880
So you had this interaction with
Percy, described as a salty 

580
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,760
contrarian in some places? 
Yeah, exactly. 

581
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,000
And then you you got this idea. 
You're fascinated by it. 

582
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:45,280
Where do you go from there? 
How? 

583
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,360
How does that awareness turn 
into a film that's released now?

584
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,440
Like how does that happen? 
Well, yeah. 

585
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,200
Well, initially I thought it 
might be a book, you know, 

586
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,680
because that's I never made a 
film before. 

587
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,760
But as I talked with all these 
people whose lives have been 

588
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:05,040
changed by naltrexone, and I 
also went to these places like 

589
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,600
the Tenderloin in San Francisco,
you know, places with these open

590
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,440
air drug markets. 
And there's such a like, gritty 

591
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,920
texture to it, such a visual 
component that it started 

592
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,040
seeming more and more like a 
film. 

593
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,680
And, you know, adding to that 
was all this great archival 

594
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,880
footage I was able to get a hold
of that takes you back to the 

595
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,880
days when all of these 
medications were first being 

596
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,800
created. 
And it actually all happened at 

597
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:42,960
this federal prison in the 
middle of Kentucky where the 

598
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:48,880
prisoners were basically human 
Guinea pigs for these 

599
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,960
medications. 
You know, methadone, 

600
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:56,040
buprenorphine, naltrexone, it 
was called the narcotic farm was

601
00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:00,840
the colloquial name for it. 
And these were basically heroin 

602
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:06,120
addicted users from New York, 
mostly that were brought out to 

603
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,640
Kentucky. 
And it literally was a farm, 

604
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,400
this prison, you know, there 
were like milking cows and, and 

605
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,640
all this, but the, the prisoners
were, were doing the work and 

606
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,040
they were there basically to be 
cured of their heroin 

607
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,600
addictions. 
And so that's where all these 

608
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,160
medications got started. 
They had all these scientists 

609
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,240
who were testing these new 
medications on these prisoners 

610
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,760
and I had all sorts of great 
footage from that era. 

611
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,640
And so that's that became a big 
part of the film too. 

612
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,480
Look, I like to have a good 
time, I'm a social person, I 

613
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,400
stay connected with friends and 
family, and I just like to enjoy

614
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:45,880
myself. 
But at some point along the way,

615
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,640
I realized that having drinks 
just wasn't working for me 

616
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,080
anymore, especially if I had too
many. 

617
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,560
I wake up the next day, my 
workout shot. 

618
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:54,400
I can't be happy, I feel more 
stressed. 

619
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,360
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ways to socialize and that's 

620
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,560
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621
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,920
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622
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,560
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It's a mint. 

623
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,080
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624
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,400
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625
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,239
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And the key is I can have a 

626
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,600
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and kick back a little bit and 

627
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,320
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628
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,920
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629
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,159
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630
00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:28,840
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631
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,880
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632
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,760
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633
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,000
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634
00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:39,120
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635
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,239
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636
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637
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,920
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638
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639
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640
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,400
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641
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,320
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642
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:10,560
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643
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644
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645
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,240
Now let's get back into the 
show. 

646
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,240
Yeah. 
On the prison topic, one of the 

647
00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:25,640
things that I think your movie 
did a great job of shining a 

648
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:30,400
light on is how at risk 
prisoners are those folks who 

649
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,720
are addicted before they go and 
become incarcerated, and how 

650
00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:36,840
essentially we just let them 
back out on the street and 

651
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,800
expect them to be OK. 
And one of the things that 

652
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:44,080
occurred to me is it that if you
use medication prior to them 

653
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:45,920
getting out of prison, 
especially if it's like 

654
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,200
naltrexone via shot, which is 
Vivitrol, is that what that's 

655
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,000
called Vivitrol? 
You're just setting them up to 

656
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,160
buy more time for them to get 
back out on the street and not 

657
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,160
have those urges. 
And I, I think as a healthcare 

658
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,520
system and even in societally to
prevent people going back out 

659
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,360
and reoffending, I think that's 
a major step that we can take, 

660
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:07,720
especially if we know somebody 
had a drug problem going in, 

661
00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:09,920
just give them some medication. 
So then when they get back on 

662
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:11,360
the street, we're setting them 
up for success. 

663
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:12,960
And I hadn't even thought of 
that before your movie. 

664
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,040
Yeah, and so I, I guess your 
listeners will might already 

665
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,720
know, but naltrexone is 
available as a, a pill, a daily 

666
00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:25,160
pill and it's also available as 
a 30 day shot, which is 

667
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,600
Vivitrol. 
So the problem with the daily 

668
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,640
pills is like, you know, you 
have to make a decision every 

669
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,080
morning when you wake up if 
you're going to take it or not. 

670
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:40,200
And if someone, you know, wants 
to binge drink or to use heroin,

671
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,440
you know, they might just opt 
not to take the pill. 

672
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,360
But with the Vivitrol shot, 
it's, it's in your system for a 

673
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,760
month, almost a full month. 
And so that really eliminates a 

674
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,840
lot of these decisions and makes
it easier just to say there's no

675
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,040
chance that I can take these 
things. 

676
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,320
Because when it comes to, you 
know, I, I guess we kind of 

677
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,920
glossed over the fact that it 
works for both alcohol and 

678
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:06,640
opioids. 
Naltrexone does. 

679
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,000
And so. 
Yeah, it grabs onto the opioid 

680
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:15,000
receptors and basically fentanyl
or heroin just sort of bounce 

681
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:16,520
off. 
It's like a force field or a 

682
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,160
vaccine. 
Like you literally could take a 

683
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,480
syringe full of fentanyl and it 
won't affect you at all. 

684
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,640
For alcohol, it works a little 
differently. 

685
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:29,080
You can still drink, but you 
just don't get that sort of 

686
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,800
pleasure normally associated 
with it. 

687
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,560
And for a lot of people, they're
fine just having a drink or two.

688
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,880
They don't need to have 12. 
It's it's a great medication in 

689
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,200
that it works for both of those 
addictions. 

690
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,760
Yeah. 
And as you kind of foreshadowed 

691
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:49,120
earlier, I've I've taken 
naltrexone, naltrexone user and 

692
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,880
with the first time I took it, I
was skeptical. 

693
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,240
It feels like magic to me. 
Like how am I going to ingest 

694
00:37:55,240 --> 00:37:58,960
something that's going to make 
me not want something, 

695
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,200
especially if it's as deeply an 
ingrained habit as alcohol, 

696
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:03,600
right? 
And I'm glad you went into the 

697
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,240
kind of mechanics of it, like 
how it works, but how I 

698
00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:07,960
understand it, and I'll do a 
terrible job. 

699
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:12,400
But essentially the the 
medication binds to the receptor

700
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:17,400
that would normally receive the 
endorphins that rush that you 

701
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,680
would get from alcohol. 
In other words, just kind of 

702
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:21,440
cutting off and muting that 
benefit. 

703
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:23,600
And again, that sounded like 
magic to me. 

704
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,880
And I, and I'll never forget the
first and second time I took it,

705
00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:31,800
I took it at a time as was 
recommended after I after I had 

706
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:33,960
some food, but it was right 
around the time of day where 

707
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,240
every single day is where I 
started to have those urges to 

708
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:38,440
drink. 
And for me, it was when I just 

709
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,120
finished a long day. 
I was a little bit dysregulated,

710
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,600
maybe tired, stressed. 
I have young kids, lots of 

711
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,160
noise, loud. 
So I'm basically like moving 

712
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,400
from one situation to another 
and then I have to be, you know,

713
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,680
there for my kids. 
And it's just, I had no time to 

714
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:54,440
unwind. 
So I would get stressed, I would

715
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,160
feel dysregulated and I would 
basically self medicate with 

716
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,720
alcohol. 
So I thought, there's no way 

717
00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:03,960
that I can take something that 
will make that that connection 

718
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,040
go away. 
And sure enough, I, I took it, I

719
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,640
sat down and I was sitting 
there, my wife actually had a 

720
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,520
glass of wine at dinner, as was 
a custom, right? 

721
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,120
And I sat there and looked at it
and I said I don't really care. 

722
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:16,720
About that. 
And I couldn't. 

723
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:21,080
I couldn't, I, I couldn't 
believe it was that simple. 

724
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,960
And the other thing, Ben, I I 
couldn't believe, and I'm sure 

725
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,440
this resonates with you, I 
couldn't believe it took me 

726
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,880
until I was 38 years old to even
know it was a thing because I 

727
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,320
did not know it was a thing. 
And it was wild. 

728
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:37,320
Yeah, I mean, the real tragedy, 
I'm so glad you had have had 

729
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,400
that great success with a, you 
know, the real tragedy of 

730
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,920
naltrexone when it comes to the 
alcohol, you know, the abilities

731
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:49,200
to fight alcoholism is that we 
have this 12 step model just so 

732
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,640
ingrained in our psyches in 
America. 

733
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,080
And you know, that's the first 
thing anyone will say. 

734
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:56,680
If someone has a drinking 
problem, well, they should go to

735
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:01,400
AAI mean A A is great and it's 
helped out so many people. 

736
00:40:01,720 --> 00:40:06,120
But the problem is that the the 
doctrine of the 12 step doctrine

737
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:10,600
is based on this idea of you can
never have another drink again. 

738
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,720
You know, ideally, you know, 
this is a disease. 

739
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,080
We're not like other people. 
You know, can't just have one or

740
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:22,360
two, but that goes against the 
whole idea of naltrexone because

741
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,720
most people don't want to quit 
entirely or they can't quit 

742
00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:28,680
entirely. 
You know, the recidivism rate 

743
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,160
people who try to quit cold 
Turkey is just staggeringly 

744
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,360
high. 
But with naltrexone, you don't 

745
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,960
have to quit cold Turkey. 
Like you said, so many people 

746
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,840
have experiences just like yours
where they just, they have one 

747
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,440
drink or, or even they just 
don't even need to have any. 

748
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,720
They're just, they're chill. 
And there's not, it's like white

749
00:40:47,720 --> 00:40:51,680
knuckle feeling of like, I'm 
going to fall off the wagon any 

750
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,560
day, you know? 
And so this idea that, you know,

751
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,320
people in a A, they're not 
doctors. 

752
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,400
And that's an important part of 
even in the big book, it says 

753
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,160
people aren't, they're not 
supposed to tell other people 

754
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,840
how to live their lives. 
And so a, A and Altrexone 

755
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,360
totally go together and should 
go together, you know. 

756
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,720
But too often there's this idea 
that no, you can't use even any 

757
00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:16,160
medication to help you. 
Yeah, I agree. 

758
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,680
Well, and with a, a, it is 
essentially there's two options.

759
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,320
There's 2 doors as they say, 
right, You're either completely 

760
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,760
abstinent or you're just 
whatever the opposite is off the

761
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,000
wagon. 
And I and I found and I think 

762
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,680
this is this momentum is kind of
picking up there's a middle door

763
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,520
and it's called moderation, 
which can be hard for people 

764
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,000
especially if you're like really
in the depths of the drinking 

765
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,000
problem. 
But I found, and I'm going to 

766
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:38,640
ask you in a second about the 
Sinclair method. 

767
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,280
But I found that if you use it 
in the targeted way where like 

768
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:46,600
let's just say I'm going to a 
brewery with friends or I have a

769
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,120
wedding and my kids are being 
watched by grandma and grandpa 

770
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,880
and I'm staying overnight at a 
hotel with my wife. 

771
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,160
Those aren't necessarily good 
environments for me in the past.

772
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,960
But if I want to take Naltrexone
before I go, I can still have a 

773
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:03,840
drink, maybe 2. 
But then that snowball impulse 

774
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,960
effect of after the second drink
just goes away and it keeps it 

775
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,880
safe and fun for me. 
But there are two ways to take 

776
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,320
the oral version, which is the 
daily method as some people call

777
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,040
it, and the Sinclair method. 
Are you able to unpack the 

778
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,280
difference between the two and 
and why one might fit for 

779
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:23,840
someone else versus another 
person? 

780
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,960
Yeah, you know, I, I know 
something about it, but I, but 

781
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,080
you should probably excuse, you 
definitely know more about the 

782
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:31,720
Sinclair method. 
Yeah. 

783
00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:33,040
I mean, essentially that's just 
it. 

784
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,440
So the Sinclair Method, people 
have a lot of success with it. 

785
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:36,920
It's exactly what I described as
targeted. 

786
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,720
So you're not taking it every 
day, you take it sort of as 

787
00:42:39,720 --> 00:42:43,320
needed and you do it to sort of 
bulletproof yourself. 

788
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,480
Like if you're if you've not 
committed to being abstinent, 

789
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,960
you still want to have some 
drinks and you're unsure you do 

790
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,000
in a targeted way. 
And then there are other folks 

791
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,200
that just really love to have 
that foundational protection and

792
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,320
they find benefit. 
Maybe it's a habit or a ritual. 

793
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,760
They'll just wake up, take it 
with breakfast and then they 

794
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,680
bulletproof it itself that way. 
But I don't know the statistics,

795
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,520
which is which is more, you 
know, long term helpful. 

796
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,520
I think whatever works for 
folks, but it's that flexibility

797
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,720
that I think is really appealing
to people as opposed to what you

798
00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:13,040
described, which is the a, a 
way, which is their way or the 

799
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,200
highway. 
It's basically all in. 

800
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:16,440
That's the best I can describe 
it. 

801
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:18,360
So I think yeah, well, thank 
you. 

802
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:24,280
I think the company or health 
who they they use the Sinclair 

803
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,160
method, is that right? 
Yeah, yeah. 

804
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:27,880
They, they, they advocate for 
both. 

805
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,240
I think they say whatever works 
for you, we're here for you. 

806
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,880
Is is my paraphrasing of their 
position on it? 

807
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,400
Yeah. 
And so they're, I'm doing an 

808
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:41,000
event with them in New York City
on May 19th and they're going to

809
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,240
be showing some excerpts from my
documentary. 

810
00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:47,880
And it sounds like you're going 
to be there on the panel too. 

811
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,720
So it'll be a great event. 
Yes, Sir. 

812
00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:52,280
We'll we'll meet each other in 
person. 

813
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,600
That'll be great. 
I want to pull out some things 

814
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:58,280
maybe that you've learned by 
doing this film and jumping into

815
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:02,360
the world of Naltrexone. 
Let's stay on the 12 step method

816
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,120
and kind of broaden a little bit
to like addiction centers and 

817
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,880
and whatnot. 
Do you feel as though like right

818
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:13,120
now a a addiction centers and 
treatment has still not evolved 

819
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,680
to include naltrexone as part of
their arsenal ways to treat like

820
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,080
is it still kind of siloed that 
way? 

821
00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:25,000
Are we making progress? 
Well, you know, I'm not a total 

822
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,880
expert on a a, I'm not in a 
myself. 

823
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:32,240
But I think the biggest problem 
has been these these groups like

824
00:44:32,240 --> 00:44:36,760
the Betty Ford Foundation, you 
know, and Hazelden and those 

825
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:41,040
are, you know, some of the 
biggest 12 step programs in the 

826
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:43,720
country. 
And they've been traditionally 

827
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:48,440
resistant to naltrexone. 
And I think that is evolving a 

828
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,960
little bit. 
And I think it's more permitted 

829
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,800
now. 
But in the past is, you know, 

830
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:58,680
this idea that using a 
medication was just not, it's an

831
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:02,400
acceptable part of a treatment, 
even though it's not a 

832
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:07,520
medication that gives you some 
sort of like high or anything. 

833
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,600
It's a, as you can attest, when 
you take naltrexone, it just 

834
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:13,680
sort of you don't really feel 
anything. 

835
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,440
Is that right? 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

836
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,880
I thought you call like the 
first maybe couple times I took 

837
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,680
it, I'll just say that I was 
aware that there was a little 

838
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,160
bit of a headspace shift, like 
there was just an awareness that

839
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,560
I felt like slightly different. 
And then by day three, I felt 

840
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:29,840
nothing. 
And particularly I felt nothing 

841
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:31,600
about alcohol. 
I didn't care about it anymore, 

842
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:33,520
which again, was just wild 
magic. 

843
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,320
Yeah, what's cool. 
What I've heard is that, you 

844
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,360
know, basically it's sort of 
cools down these feelings that 

845
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,840
you have to make these rash 
decisions, these impulsive 

846
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,440
decisions. 
And so it it has ramifications 

847
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,200
for so many different other 
disorders as well. 

848
00:45:50,720 --> 00:45:54,840
Like for the film, I interview a
guy who is addicted to Matt and 

849
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,880
Naltrexone helped him beat that.
You know, it's just sort of 

850
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:03,160
cooling down the brain. 
You know, you don't want that 

851
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,200
second or third drain. 
You know, you don't want, you 

852
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:08,040
know, you lose that craving for 
Matt. 

853
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,200
It's even, you know, for things 
like addictive eating, you know,

854
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,560
eating, eating disorders, both 
eating too much or eating too 

855
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:19,160
little sex addiction. 
It's, it's all sort of these 

856
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:25,160
like compulsive behaviors that 
people find all this success 

857
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,760
taking the Altrexone because it 
just makes them cut out these 

858
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,200
these crazy compulsive 
behaviors. 

859
00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:36,160
It's really wild that that works
that way because that's the way 

860
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,840
I've learned it too. 
It's it's the same circuitry in 

861
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,960
your brain that is responding to
opioids, like really illicit 

862
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,360
drugs as alcohol. 
They all kind of work in the 

863
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,840
same, you know, brain chemistry.
And by blocking the receptor 

864
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,560
again, that receives the thing 
that's going to alter the 

865
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,840
experience. 
It can block all of them, which 

866
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:59,440
really two things makes it a 
wonder drug, but also makes it 

867
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,480
so frustrating that so many 
organizations along the way have

868
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:04,840
actively tried to suppress the 
benefits. 

869
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,480
And I just think sometimes how 
many millions of people could 

870
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:09,320
have gotten the help that they 
need so much sooner if it 

871
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:11,360
weren't for. 
That case. 

872
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:13,640
Which is sad. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

873
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,520
You know, and I think the 
biggest issue right now is 

874
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:20,440
awareness to, you know, because 
naltrexone is a generic 

875
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,960
medication. 
I mean, you can get it. 

876
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,720
You should be able to get it at 
the pharmacy for like less than 

877
00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:30,440
a dollar a pill. 
But a lot of doctors don't don't

878
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,560
even know about it. 
You know, I think if you go to 

879
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:38,240
your doctor for, you know, 
alcohol use disorder, a lot of 

880
00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:40,960
times the doctor will just say 
go to a A. 

881
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:45,680
And the doctors aren't receiving
this sort of training in medical

882
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,120
school. 
There's very little addiction 

883
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,160
medicine training in medical 
schools. 

884
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:55,680
And that needs to change. 
People need to be aware of all 

885
00:47:55,680 --> 00:48:00,320
these options that are available
to them because so many people 

886
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:02,760
would take advantage if they 
just knew. 

887
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,160
Let's be honest, most of us 
don't have a private gym, a full

888
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:09,920
time trainer, or hours every day
to lift. 

889
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,800
If you're like me, you don't 
even have time to commute to a 

890
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:14,800
local gym. 
You're training early in the 

891
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,880
morning or carving out 40 
minutes between work, kids and 

892
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:19,920
everything else, competing for 
your time. 

893
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,120
And when fitness matters that 
much to your well-being and your

894
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,400
health, you've got to have home 
fitness equipment that's as 

895
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:30,640
strong and reliable as you are. 
That is exactly why I use Rep 

896
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,280
Fitness. 
Rep is built for people who 

897
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,040
train with purpose. 
People who need high quality, 

898
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,520
reliable equipment engineered 
for real strength. 

899
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:43,000
Designed right here in Colorado,
USA, Rep Fitness provides racks,

900
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:45,920
benches, bars, and plates that 
offer commercial grade 

901
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:50,200
durability without commercial 
gym prices, premium materials, 

902
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:52,600
smart engineering, and fair 
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Whether you're outfitting your 
very first garage gym or 

904
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:57,920
upgrading your current setup to 
match where you want to go with 

905
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,480
your training, Rep makes gear 
that keeps up with your life and

906
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:04,600
your goals. 
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907
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their full lineup racks, 
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908
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conditioning tools, and 
everything you need to build a 

909
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,480
home gym that works as hard as 
you do. 

910
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:20,000
That's repfitness.com. 
What is your sort of greatest 

911
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:24,200
hope with this film? 
Or maybe what what it What was 

912
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,520
the goal in making it, and what 
do you hope comes from it? 

913
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,680
Well, you know, really hoping to
reduce deaths. 

914
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:33,800
And it's, you know, even though 
the numbers for drug overdose 

915
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:37,400
deaths have ticked down a little
bit, the number of overdose 

916
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:41,880
deaths and deaths from alcohol 
use are are just still 

917
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,920
historically shockingly high. 
I mean, there is a lot of talk 

918
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,040
in the news about the the drug 
crisis. 

919
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,800
But I mean, how often do you 
hear about the alcohol crisis in

920
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,880
this country? 
You watch these football games, 

921
00:49:55,880 --> 00:50:00,200
you know, and there's like Bud 
Light ads, you know, beer and 

922
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:05,680
booze ads all the time. 
But it's just so ingrained in 

923
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:11,120
our culture that people don't 
realize just how toxic it is. 

924
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,800
And it's not just for the people
who die from alcohol. 

925
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,560
It's people who are just living 
with exactly the symptoms you're

926
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,360
talking about. 
Certain time of day comes around

927
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,560
and you know, it's like, am I 
going to make it through or am I

928
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,080
going to drink myself into 
oblivion? 

929
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:31,760
The the goal of the film is to 
increase awareness that people 

930
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:35,200
don't have to wide knuckle it, 
that there really is this other 

931
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,240
option. 
And, you know, really hoping to,

932
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:41,880
you know, to save lives. 
Yeah, Yeah, I I saw some 

933
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:46,920
statistics recently around the 
top five preventable causes of 

934
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:50,440
death in America. 
And alcohol is quietly right in 

935
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,080
that list every single year, 
right? 

936
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,800
You have diabetes and 
cardiovascular disease, all 

937
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,080
these things and and those are 
listed as preventable because 

938
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,800
some of those are linked to 
lifestyle choices just like 

939
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,560
alcohol. 
But to your point no one talks 

940
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:06,520
about it. 
I mean he just gave the 

941
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:12,200
statistics 140,000 lives lost 
every year for alcohol, alcohol 

942
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:14,440
related deaths and injuries and 
nobody talks about it. 

943
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,080
I also saw it was just listed as
a carcinogenic officially 

944
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:19,400
meaning it is it's linked to 
cancer. 

945
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,920
Yeah, I mean, I think there's 
still sort of this 

946
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,480
misinformation floating around 
that alcohol, it's sort of like 

947
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:29,520
a health food, almost like a 
beer, a glass of wine or two. 

948
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:33,760
It's good for you. 
I mean, I, I, it's just nothing 

949
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:35,600
could be further, further from 
the truth. 

950
00:51:35,720 --> 00:51:39,880
It's not just the effects of 
addiction, you know, because 

951
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:43,920
because plenty of people drink, 
drink booze and don't get 

952
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:48,960
addicted, but there's all these 
other deleterious side effects 

953
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,280
from it as well, including 
cancer. 

954
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:56,920
And I don't think it's 
particularly surprising that 

955
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:00,720
these studies came out, but it's
definitely something that's not 

956
00:52:00,720 --> 00:52:02,920
talked about like you said. 
Yeah, well put. 

957
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:06,880
Then what I always, what I 
always enjoy doing as as a 

958
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,640
conversation kind of winds down 
as I call like a rapid fire 

959
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:12,800
section, if that's OK with you. 
And I've, I've written some that

960
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:14,800
are mostly related to the to the
movie. 

961
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:17,800
But if I could you mind if I go 
through a list and you just kind

962
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,840
of give me your your top of mind
first answer, would that be OK? 

963
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:22,560
Let's do it. 
Let's do it. 

964
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:25,160
In your opinion, we'll start 
with this one. 

965
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:28,440
What is the biggest 
misconception around addiction 

966
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,360
treatment in America? 
Probably that it's expensive, 

967
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:35,480
that it's unavailable. 
You know, I think nowadays more 

968
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:39,360
than ever you can just walk into
a clinic and get free treatment.

969
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:43,280
You know, it's it's really 
subsidized by federal and state 

970
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:47,120
and local, local money. 
So that's that might be my 

971
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:49,120
answer. 
Yes, good answer. 

972
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:53,600
Next one, what is the most 
memorable interview that you 

973
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:55,000
conducted in the making of the 
film? 

974
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:59,720
Well, I'd have to say Percy, 
Percy Menzies is the star of the

975
00:52:59,720 --> 00:53:04,200
film just because he he's like a
real true blue believer. 

976
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,320
You know, he's like operates 
from this place deep in his 

977
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,600
heart that is just so pro pro, 
so profound. 

978
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,760
There's nothing like cynical 
about him. 

979
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,200
I'd almost like never met anyone
like that. 

980
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,640
Yeah, it it jumps off the screen
as a as a viewer too. 

981
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:21,720
It's just contagious. 
Next one, If you could force 

982
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:26,120
everyone to watch 1 scene from 
your film antagonist, which 

983
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:27,880
scene would you force them to 
watch? 

984
00:53:28,240 --> 00:53:31,480
I would say maybe just the 
Tenderloin scenes in San 

985
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,360
Francisco where we're talking to
addicted users and saying, have 

986
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:38,040
you ever heard of naltrexone? 
And they say no. 

987
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:42,400
And is naltrexone available? 
And they say no, and it just 

988
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,880
kind of sums up the situation 
just right there in 1 scene. 

989
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:47,760
Yeah, I agree. 
I agree. 

990
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,200
It was eye opening for me just 
to see the way that those folks 

991
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:53,480
were, were living in open air as
you put it and the things that 

992
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:55,320
were happening. 
It was striking to me. 

993
00:53:56,240 --> 00:54:00,880
Last one for you, what's the 
next project that you're going 

994
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:02,680
to tackle? 
What are you working on next? 

995
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:07,720
I'm actually working on a coffee
table book about the fentanyl 

996
00:54:07,720 --> 00:54:11,480
crisis, if you can believe that.
It's with a nonprofit, and it's 

997
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:15,960
called Lives Interrupted, and 
it's just profiles of people who

998
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:21,400
died in the epidemic and with 
big color pictures of them in 

999
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:24,360
the primes of their lives. 
And this nonprofit I'm working 

1000
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:28,880
with, they're called Pack 
Sapiens, and they're going to be

1001
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:32,800
bringing this book to world 
leaders like in China, in the 

1002
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:37,920
US, to try to get them to the 
table and fight the epidemic, 

1003
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:40,320
you know, put more resources 
behind it. 

1004
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:42,760
Lives interrupted. 
Yeah, Name. 

1005
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:44,600
It's a great name. 
Amazing look. 

1006
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:46,560
It's, it's, again, it's a great 
film. 

1007
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:51,880
I'm I'm a big fan of yours and 
now as a result, and I'm so glad

1008
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:55,400
you made it. 
Can you just direct my audience 

1009
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:59,000
to how or when they can access 
the film, the view it for 

1010
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,440
themselves, and just kind of 
unpack that and how they can 

1011
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:04,720
also find you and find your 
website and just kind of see the

1012
00:55:04,720 --> 00:55:06,640
projects that you've worked on 
and you're working on in the 

1013
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:10,800
future? 
Just go to antagonistfilm.com 

1014
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:14,160
and I'll say it one more time 
just in case, Antagonist 

1015
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:17,040
film.com. 
And then you can get like a 

1016
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:20,280
sneak preview if you join our 
Patreon. 

1017
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:25,280
But you can see the the trailer 
for the film and get all sorts 

1018
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:28,160
of information. 
And to find out more about my 

1019
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:32,240
work, you can go to my website 
justbenwoff.com. 

1020
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:36,280
Awesome, and I will make sure I 
drop those links in the episode 

1021
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:39,400
description for anyone that 
wants to find you. 

1022
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,320
Anything else you want to share 
before we wrap? 

1023
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,600
Then Nope. 
I think we pretty much covered 

1024
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,600
it, so thanks for having me on. 
Yeah, I know. 

1025
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:50,400
It's my absolute pleasure to 
meet you and have you on the 

1026
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:52,560
show. 
And I'm so grateful you came. 

1027
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:58,720
Ben Westhoff, everybody. 
That's it for my interview with 

1028
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:00,880
Ben Westhoff. 
Hope you learned something 

1029
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:01,800
there. 
I mean, what? 

1030
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,600
What a topic. 
At times it's, it's frustrating 

1031
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:09,440
just to learn how you know, for 
the sake of profits, people will

1032
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:11,440
be set aside, people who truly 
need help. 

1033
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:14,880
And I'm so glad a guy like Ben 
is out there doing the hard 

1034
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:18,400
work, rolling up his sleeves, 
investigating this stuff, 

1035
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,840
bringing that darkness to the 
light so that hopefully in 

1036
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:26,400
America, we can see a change and
a miracle drug like naltrexone 

1037
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:30,680
can be more widely available and
more widely known for the people

1038
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:33,440
that need it and even the family
members that need it. 

1039
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:35,960
So if you heard this and you 
think that you could benefit 

1040
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:39,880
from a medication like that, 
please, please raise your hand 

1041
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:41,560
and say yes and step into that 
role. 

1042
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:44,080
If you know somebody, friend or 
family or otherwise, it could 

1043
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:46,800
benefit from just knowing about 
it, Let them know about it. 

1044
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,640
You can even share this episode 
as one way to do it. 

1045
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:51,640
So I'm so glad that Ben joined 
the show. 

1046
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,200
You can Scroll down in the 
episode notes and I'll have all 

1047
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:56,080
those links. 
He mentioned his website where 

1048
00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:58,880
you can access the film, other 
things to stay connected with 

1049
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:00,520
Ben. 
Just a great guy and I'm glad I 

1050
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:03,000
know him, frankly. 
So with that, this is the end of

1051
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:04,680
the episode. 
I always like to ask if you 

1052
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,160
could, if you're listening, 
still leave us a rating and 

1053
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:08,960
review. 
It just helps the algorithm pick

1054
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:11,040
us up and boost us so other 
people can find them. 

1055
00:57:11,240 --> 00:57:13,760
And that matters to me because 
it helps them to grow stronger 

1056
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:15,200
weekly, right? 
Whether that's your fitness, 

1057
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:17,720
your mental health, emotional 
health, and otherwise, that 

1058
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:19,840
would be great. 
You can always leave a comment. 

1059
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:23,320
You can share this with a friend
or family member and we always 

1060
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:25,200
love to hear from our fans and 
listeners. 

1061
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:30,000
You can e-mail us directly at 
contact@strongerweekly.com. 

1062
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:32,600
Again, that's contact at 
strongerweekly.com. 

1063
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:35,400
You can ask a question, give 
some encouragement, criticize 

1064
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:37,160
us, whatever. 
We'd love to hear from you. 

1065
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:39,400
So if you could do that, that 
would be awesome. 

1066
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:41,320
And that's it for this episode, 
folks. 

1067
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,360
Hope you have a great, great 
week and you grow stronger this 

1068
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:45,880
week and we'll see you next 
time.