1
00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,119
Welcome back everyone. 
I am Cass PNC and I'm joined as 

2
00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:10,560
usual by my partner in crime, 
Mr. Bennett Tomlin. 

3
00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:12,760
How are you today? 
I'm doing OK. 

4
00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:14,440
How are you, Cass? 
I'm doing great. 

5
00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,400
We're joined by a very special 
guest today, Peter Ryan, who 

6
00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:22,600
we've we've known for a very 
long time and who has his own 

7
00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,280
consultancy firm and a sub stack
Ryan research. 

8
00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,240
You can look it up. 
That covers history, economics, 

9
00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,360
tech, everything you can 
possibly imagine. 

10
00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,600
But we have yet to have you join
us on the show. 

11
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:36,640
Peter. 
So first of all, welcome and 

12
00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,040
second of all, how are you? 
Great. 

13
00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:46,000
We have been colleagues, I dare 
say friends for a number of 

14
00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,960
years, especially kind of the 
heyday of the late 20 tens of 

15
00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,000
crypto journalism and and 
content. 

16
00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:55,920
And yeah, it's great to be on 
the show. 

17
00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:57,920
You guys are a. 
Huge. 

18
00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:04,720
Influential assemblage duo in 
the space and so I would have 

19
00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,320
loved to come on earlier, but as
I was telling you in the pre 

20
00:01:08,320 --> 00:01:12,600
show, it felt somewhat like 
stolen valor to like on the same

21
00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,800
plane as you guys. 
So I'm happy that I can equate A

22
00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:21,760
slight niche to you guys at this
point, and I feel humbled to be 

23
00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,080
with you. 
Well, it's, yeah, it's a little.

24
00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:26,840
Bit sorry cast, but Peter, 
that's a little bit of a funny 

25
00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,960
thing to say considering your 
history and in the industry was 

26
00:01:29,960 --> 00:01:33,200
leading research for coin desk 
and Catherine my history in the 

27
00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,240
industry before we started this 
podcast was tweeting at people 

28
00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:40,080
angrily. 
It's not by the title, it's by 

29
00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:44,480
the content. 
So actually I'm just trying to 

30
00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:45,480
flatter you if. 
That's it. 

31
00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,080
Actually, the best meme about 
Crypto Critics Corner is by 

32
00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,560
Peter, in which he shows a guy 
saying, oh, crypto critics 

33
00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:55,560
Corner, it's about crypto 
criticism. 

34
00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,040
And then over his head it's 
like, no, it's about it's about 

35
00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,520
best friends. 
But yeah, that that's all 

36
00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,880
besides the point. 
Peter, we've been talking to you

37
00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,600
for a really long time and I 
think most people are probably 

38
00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:08,840
unaware of the first thing we're
going to be talking about. 

39
00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:13,800
So what the reason we crossed 
paths originally was because we 

40
00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,120
were covering, we were all 
talking. 

41
00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,600
The main thing we were all 
talking about back in 2017, the 

42
00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,600
end of 2017 was something called
the Block Size Wars. 

43
00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,200
And I think we've maybe gone 
over this a little bit on the 

44
00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:29,120
podcast, but really we've never 
gone into a deep dive about it. 

45
00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:35,080
And your recently published 
work, which is fantastic money 

46
00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,880
by by all means am I getting, am
I getting that right? 

47
00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,120
So your recent piece goes over 
the block size war. 

48
00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:48,480
And yeah, I would, I like, I 
maybe just can you describe what

49
00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,280
the block size war is and what 
it meant to the history of 

50
00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:55,920
Bitcoin? 
Sure, so money by vile means. 

51
00:02:55,920 --> 00:02:58,720
I have an abridged version in 
Compact magazine and the 

52
00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:02,280
extended version is on my sub 
stack to get all the juicy 

53
00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:09,240
details and extra sources. 
But what the block size were 

54
00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,480
was. 
It forms an essential piece of 

55
00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:17,520
the yes, I wrote and it is so 
important because it intersects 

56
00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:22,640
many of the core myths of 
Bitcoin and how those myths 

57
00:03:22,640 --> 00:03:26,520
became debunked in the process 
of going through that block size

58
00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,560
war. 
And so the way I would frame it 

59
00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:34,520
is that in many ways it should 
never have been a war as far as 

60
00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:36,520
I see it. 
And I think there's there's 

61
00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:42,320
definitely a faction that sees 
it that way, is that Bitcoin was

62
00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:46,760
always meant to go down one side
of that war, which was 

63
00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,960
increasing the block size in the
blockchain. 

64
00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:51,960
There's blocks. 
Blocks contain transaction 

65
00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:53,960
request. 
The more transaction request you

66
00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:58,280
can fit inside a block, the more
fees miners can generate, the 

67
00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,680
more efficient and productive 
each block is for the 

68
00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:02,840
blockchain. 
And so this is the natural way 

69
00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,920
that the blockchain would scale 
and get into actually competing 

70
00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,080
with Visa and other major 
payment processors. 

71
00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,760
So this seemed to be what 
everyone will say, you know, 

72
00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:14,400
this is the way Satoshi 
envisioned it. 

73
00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,600
This is the way a lot of early 
developers always talked about 

74
00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,120
it on Bitcoin Talk forum and 
other communication platforms. 

75
00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:26,880
And it was only into like 
20/13/2014 that it emerged that 

76
00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:32,000
there was a deviation. 
And that once we get into the 

77
00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:37,800
sort of 20/16/2017 land, that's 
when there's a true break in the

78
00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,360
community. 
And there is freezing the block 

79
00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,880
size faction who ultimately won 
the block size war. 

80
00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:49,520
And then there is the not even, 
you know, exponentially increase

81
00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:51,720
the block size, but like 
moderately increase the block 

82
00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,880
size to proportionally keep up 
with demand in a very sort of 

83
00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:00,560
sequence events every few years.
And so that occurs in about 

84
00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,360
2017. 
And this chapter going through 

85
00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:09,880
that kind of year 2017 through 
2018 forms kind of the the 

86
00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:14,720
backbone of this critical period
where all these decentralized 

87
00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,160
open source software ideas, they
get tested, all these free 

88
00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,880
market ideas, they get tested. 
And we end up seeing in in both 

89
00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,360
ways, these sort of market 
failures start to emerge. 

90
00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,760
And it starts to actually get 
into core questions of like, 

91
00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,120
what is money? 
And like, how should money be 

92
00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:35,680
used in society? 
And how do certain myths of 

93
00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,040
Bitcoin get that wrong? 
Well, can we, can we? 

94
00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,680
Sorry, Bennett, if you want to 
jump in, you can feel free. 

95
00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:41,760
Sorry. 
I don't want to, I don't want to

96
00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,400
take over here, but I just my, I
see where you're going here and 

97
00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,160
you're, you're purposely being 
big, which is good, but I do 

98
00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:52,720
want to I do want to drag you 
into the what, what Peter is 

99
00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:57,080
talking about is there's Bitcoin
what what's now known as Bitcoin

100
00:05:57,280 --> 00:05:59,480
and there's what's now known as 
Bitcoin cash. 

101
00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,880
And they're different. 
They're different. 

102
00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:05,560
They're not just different 
monetary policies, they are 

103
00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:06,960
completely different currencies 
now. 

104
00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,600
And that was that is the split 
that you're talking about. 

105
00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,400
And this was a split between 
different factions, but also 

106
00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:19,640
just completely different 
interests within like what makes

107
00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,640
the Bitcoin blockchain, which is
like, I know that all of this is

108
00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,680
we've talked to enough people 
that I think most people 

109
00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:29,440
understand how a blockchain 
works. 

110
00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,560
Now, I think it, it might be 
annoying to go over that 

111
00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,440
exactly, but I do think you're 
talking about some very specific

112
00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,680
interests here and they're 
opposing in different interests,

113
00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:40,760
right? 
So we're talking about miners 

114
00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:48,360
and like their role is to hash a
number using computing power to 

115
00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,560
get the next Bitcoin out of a 
chain of bitcoins. 

116
00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,680
And there are reward like 
Bennett, do you want to do you 

117
00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:58,200
want to help me out here? 
Because there's so many 

118
00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:02,840
different factions, basically. 
So Peter, can you maybe talk a 

119
00:07:02,840 --> 00:07:07,960
little bit about how Bitcoiners 
self selected into like small 

120
00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,040
blockers and big blockers and 
what the different interests 

121
00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,680
cast Cass is talking about 
looked like on the different 

122
00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:18,960
sides of that? 
Yes, so the important thing to 

123
00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,880
remember too is that Bitcoin 
Cash became eventually the 

124
00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:28,480
banner which the big blocker 
faction rallied around and you 

125
00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,520
know, like I made it known in my
essay if anyone checks a few 

126
00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,000
Google searches like it's no 
surprise I was partial to the 

127
00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,080
Bitcoin cash big block side. 
I don't make any bones about 

128
00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,280
that. 
I think like I checked myself in

129
00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:45,080
that bias by kind of criticizing
them as well and the sort of 

130
00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,080
general concept and sector of 
crypto. 

131
00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:52,120
But I would say that the easy 
way to like slice this is that 

132
00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:56,360
like I said, there was an 
original road map for bitcoins 

133
00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:01,640
upgrades to be. 
And a lot of people, you know, 

134
00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,280
were actually like, I would say 
like the dominant position in 

135
00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:11,600
the community was this sort of 
Satoshi inspired way of 

136
00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:16,120
upgrading the block size. 
Now I would demarcate that 

137
00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:21,720
opinion by looking at like the 
New York agreement and the 

138
00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,600
spring of 2017. 
And I know people can like make 

139
00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,840
points about this, but like near
80% plus of the mining hash 

140
00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:37,720
power at the time was on the 
side of this moderate big block 

141
00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:43,000
upgrade within Bitcoin BTC. 
So Bitcoin Cash wasn't even like

142
00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,400
a figment of anyone's 
imagination at this point. 

143
00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:50,320
So the miners were dominantly 
for upgrading the block size. 

144
00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,760
Now within that New York 
agreement, there was also the 

145
00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:58,640
nominal signing of like a 
petition in support of that, 

146
00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:03,000
which many of the original 
Bitcoin businesses. 

147
00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,560
And you can say what anyone 
wants to say about their 

148
00:09:05,560 --> 00:09:06,920
oligarchs, they're not 
oligarchs. 

149
00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:08,960
You know, a lot of these were 
start-ups at the end of the day,

150
00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,640
but a lot of the business 
community supported the big box 

151
00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,720
side. 
So in the only ways we have to 

152
00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,480
kind of actually measure this 
consensus, this rough democracy,

153
00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,840
we had 80% plus of the minor 
hash power, which is very 

154
00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,920
quantitative and then we had 
more, a little bit less 

155
00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,200
quantitative, but nonetheless 
like a bunch of the businesses 

156
00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:30,280
signing. 
On to the agreement. 

157
00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,080
And then so that's like kind of 
the original conception. 

158
00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,880
A lot of these people too. 
A lot of the vocal people. 

159
00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,040
Where I would say these 
libertarian Bitcoin idealist 

160
00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,760
Rodger Veer is sort of an 
obvious one that comes to mind. 

161
00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,560
These were a lot of people that 
go to Cork Fest in New Hampshire

162
00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,760
that liked Ron Paul, that were 
into Austrian economics. 

163
00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,000
And so I would say there was 
actually more of this idealist 

164
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:59,280
strand inside that big block 
community while it was dominated

165
00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,520
and LED, But well, I would say 
like the miner community and a 

166
00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,960
lot of those miners were based 
in China at that time in the 

167
00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,040
market share of Bitcoin. 
Now we get to the small block 

168
00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:13,000
faction and a lot of the small 
black faction was more led by 

169
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,880
Bitcoin Core developers and 
they're sort of interlocators 

170
00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,280
like nominally like exchanges 
like Bit Fenix, which probably 

171
00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,800
will come up a lot later. 
They were in support of that, 

172
00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,960
that small block Bitcoin Core 
kind of lead faction. 

173
00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,760
And what I will say, and I 
document this in the essay in 

174
00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:37,080
terms of quantitatively 
measuring the sides, the big 

175
00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,840
issue to demonstrate how popular
in grassroots the small block 

176
00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,520
side was in terms of their 
argument was the user activated 

177
00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:51,240
soft fork kind of campaign. 
And so we have all the non 

178
00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,880
mining nodes out there that 
would raise a flag on them and 

179
00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,920
would indicate if they support 
this small block Shibboleth, if 

180
00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,840
you will, that would say, I I 
vote for the user activated 

181
00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:03,160
software. 
We don't have to get into the 

182
00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,000
roots of that. 
We just have to know like this 

183
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,600
is their way of declaring. 
How many of them are and so they

184
00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,720
could never get above like 20% 
of just the non mining nodes. 

185
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:17,000
So by their own terms, they 
could not demonstrate they were 

186
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,920
an actual. 
Significant, let alone 

187
00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,520
plurality, but not even a 
majority. 

188
00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:27,000
So this is how I would say you 
would want to start thinking of 

189
00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,680
these two sides and that there 
was the developer, there were 

190
00:11:31,680 --> 00:11:34,440
sort of corporate into locators 
to the small block side and 

191
00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,280
there was some deceptive 
practices there. 

192
00:11:36,560 --> 00:11:39,200
Not to say that the big block 
side was perfect in everything 

193
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,040
they did, but generally that's 
the vibe of each side. 

194
00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:47,440
So can you, can you talk about 
what the reason is that there 

195
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,600
was this because we, we 
understand you're, you've 

196
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,120
explained that there was this 
split and that there was at 

197
00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,120
least some ideological value to 
this split. 

198
00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:01,840
But like why would 80% of minors
be pro big block and then 20% 

199
00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,640
not? 
And why, why would you know, why

200
00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,960
do we have bit Fenix and Tether 
and other or more importantly, 

201
00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,520
actually, more importantly, at 
least for what we're talking 

202
00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,520
about right now, more 
importantly, the the core devs 

203
00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:21,080
being into the small block stuff
as opposed to the big block 

204
00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,600
stuff. 
And, and I'm yeah, I'm wondering

205
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,800
because, because I do think that
most people, at least like most 

206
00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,640
people I know who are familiar 
with early Bitcoin history, it 

207
00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,120
sure does feel like it's very 
libertarian leaning. 

208
00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,360
And the concept is this should 
be money. 

209
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:42,160
Like, I do think that it, it 
sounds to me and, and Bennett, 

210
00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,280
if you think I'm, if I, if you 
think I'm wrong here, but it 

211
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,760
sounds to me in a lot of, you 
know, Bitcoin, Bitcoin talk 

212
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,040
forum posts and stuff when 
Satoshi was active, that like 

213
00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,200
this is meant to be utilized 
transactionally. 

214
00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,600
It's not supposed to necessarily
be something you just hold onto,

215
00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,680
though I'm not sure that's 
necessarily even thought of as a

216
00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:03,400
real use case back in those 
days. 

217
00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:13,720
So I like, I kind of like. 
I'm wondering, I'm wondering 

218
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,000
where the split is, why there's 
this ideological split between 

219
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:21,720
these two very important 
parties, and whether or not 

220
00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,240
there's truth to either side. 
Like, I don't know what 

221
00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,400
Satoshi's plan was. 
Does anyone? 

222
00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,800
Well, one person claims to know 
Satoshi's vision. 

223
00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,600
Sorry. 
Anyways, perhaps the best way to

224
00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,760
come at this is were there 
certain groups that most 

225
00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,280
benefited from different plans, 
and what groups were those? 

226
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,120
Yeah, that's that's a good way 
of putting it. 

227
00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,960
I mean, I think. 
I've written this essay and 

228
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:55,000
there's a previous essay I wrote
talking about the Bitcoin miner 

229
00:13:55,000 --> 00:14:00,160
fee crisis, which is eventually 
going to hit, but in terms of 

230
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,960
the economics, because of a 
thing called the happening 

231
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,880
because we have this bifurcated 
fee structure in Bitcoin miners.

232
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,600
Where there is an inbuilt 
default subsidy, the algorithm 

233
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,120
gives the miners as a way to 
encourage them. 

234
00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,360
And then there's the market 
supply and demand variable fee 

235
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:22,240
that they must subjectively 
choose to charge their 

236
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,280
customers, transaction 
requesters. 

237
00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,920
And what's supposed to happen 
every happening, that subsidy 

238
00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,280
goes down and eventually there's
an inflection point where those 

239
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,240
variable fees are going to be 
all there is. 

240
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,120
And those variable fees have to 
pay the miners the sufficient 

241
00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,280
amount of revenue to justify 
everything. 

242
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:45,960
So I think from just that design
principle and then like I 

243
00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:47,880
document plenty of Bitcoin talk 
form. 

244
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,200
Post by Satoshi emails that he's
written. 

245
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,840
I bring up my kernel lot as a 
character that spoke a lot with 

246
00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,680
Satoshi. 
And use his sort of, you know, 

247
00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:02,240
you have to sort of default to 
his conception of a little bit. 

248
00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,520
But I think there's enough 
evidence of Satoshi's own words.

249
00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,840
And what early developers around
and close to Satoshi said is 

250
00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:17,840
that like there there was this 
general idea that Bitcoin was 

251
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:23,280
always meant to be a medium of 
exchange and that it was a 

252
00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,520
payment processor. 
I mean, it was this thing where 

253
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,760
it was going to compete, compete
with Visa to pay for two of the 

254
00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,760
hour transactions for coffee. 
So this idea that there's a 

255
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:34,920
store of value and there's a 
medium exchange that are totally

256
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,600
divorced. 
I mean, that wasn't really true.

257
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,720
And those were always sort of 
interwoven together in the early

258
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,280
days. 
So I would say even though there

259
00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:47,240
is a very toxic Satoshi's vision
narrative out there that really 

260
00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:52,880
like ruins the branding and 
optics around that conception of

261
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:57,320
Bitcoin like the I mean like the
the backbone evidence of those 

262
00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,000
early days is like very 
suggestive that it was supposed 

263
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,120
to be this way. 
Now once we get into like 2014 

264
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:08,960
to 2016 to 2017 especially like 
there are contemporary reasons 

265
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,320
and rationales why certain 
parties pick a side. 

266
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:18,280
And so I would just say quickly,
the reason miners want a big 

267
00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,560
block is because of that 
structure where they need to 

268
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:26,760
eventually get variable fees 
sufficiently up to a point where

269
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:31,000
they can have a competitive and 
sustainable business model. 

270
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,840
So do that you either charge 
really high prices for your 

271
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,640
transaction request services 
that you provide because there's

272
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,240
a low quantity of them, or you 
can keep the prices of the fees 

273
00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,320
low and just have a ton of 
quantity of those transaction 

274
00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:45,880
requests. 
The only way to have a ton of 

275
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,440
quantity of the transaction 
requests is if you expand the 

276
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,880
block size. 
So it is it is very natural for 

277
00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,440
the miners to go down that path.
Now when we go over to like 

278
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,640
Bitcoin Core developers and 
other people around them, why 

279
00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:02,000
they would maybe not want that 
and want something that's more 

280
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:07,200
the opposite is that when you 
freeze the block size, so 

281
00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:10,480
there's all this like latent 
transaction demand that would 

282
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,200
have otherwise gone inside the 
blocks that like is can't go 

283
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,160
anywhere or it needs to go 
somewhere. 

284
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,720
So that's where we have this 
invention of layer twos and 

285
00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:24,040
layer twos are grafted onto the 
layer one Bitcoin blockchain as 

286
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,440
this alternative payment rail to
cover all those like $2.00 

287
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,120
coffee transactions and things 
like that. 

288
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,560
And that's where we have 
businesses like a block stream 

289
00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:38,560
that offer layer 2 products. 
And so it's kind of bewildering 

290
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,440
that block stream and sort of 
the things around that. 

291
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,600
And again, there, there's toxic 
ways people talk about block 

292
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:46,320
stream and their role in the 
community. 

293
00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,400
But again, just I would hope 
people start from first 

294
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,240
principles and just look at what
they are. 

295
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:54,080
They offer a layer 2 product, 
they have a natural conflict of 

296
00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,800
interest where they want to 
freeze the blocks on the Bitcoin

297
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,480
layer one blockchain. 
So all that latent transaction 

298
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:05,720
demand goes to their layer 2 
product and block stream funded 

299
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,640
and supported many of the 
Bitcoin Core developers and 

300
00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:16,200
there was a natural assemblage 
of fellow interested parties 

301
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,840
like for instance Bit Fenix was 
an exchange that did not go for 

302
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,320
the New York agreement and 
supported big blocks. 

303
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:28,960
They were very unsupportive and 
it only became like known later 

304
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,720
down the road after denials. 
And I actually cite my essay 

305
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,760
instances where both you 2 are 
like talking with Samson Mao and

306
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,400
Adam back and you're inquiring 
on them on certain things about,

307
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:42,920
you know, did. 
You invest in this company or in

308
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,440
that. 
And it wasn't till like 2021 

309
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:49,080
that they completely reversed 
course and admitted like things 

310
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,480
like they actually were an 
investor in Block Stream in the 

311
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,320
early days. 
They weren't just like a 

312
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,240
customer of Block Stream, they 
were like a seed investor. 

313
00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,080
And so when you're supporting 
Bitcoin Core developers and 

314
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,040
you're a seed investor in like 
the dominant layer 2 alternative

315
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:07,160
to layer one blockchain 
transaction demand like this is 

316
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:08,800
a really big conflict of 
interest. 

317
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,400
And I'm not even. 
Saying that that could be wrong 

318
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,520
in itself one of the problems. 
Is is that that conflict of 

319
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,800
interest or that alternative 
value proposition was not 

320
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,360
properly disclosed and not 
properly argued from that 

321
00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:27,120
standpoint? 
I think that's in a fair 

322
00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:29,280
summary, though. 
When I hear it, the first points

323
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:34,480
I come back to are, is there 
latent transaction demand, 

324
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,400
right? 
Fees on Bitcoin right now are 

325
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,320
under one set of byte, right? 
Or one set per V byte? 

326
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:44,320
And if this was meant to benefit
things like Liquid, why does no 

327
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,960
one use Liquid? 
Yeah, so that's a good question.

328
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,200
So this is where my essay works 
on 2 planes. 

329
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,080
It's one using the internal 
logic of Bitcoin. 

330
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,240
And you know, sort of the free 
market Austrian economic 

331
00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,120
premises that go into that. 
And I use that as a way to like 

332
00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:05,080
argue these things breakdown. 
But then there's a second plane 

333
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:08,360
of just looking at it when 
you're not already inside the 

334
00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:12,280
logic of Bitcoiners and you're 
looking at it from like just 

335
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,800
anyone approaching economics 
from a neutral level. 

336
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:21,000
And so I would say, 1, you could
say the reason that there's no 

337
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,160
demand today for liquid in the 
ways that we would think about. 

338
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,600
Is because a lot of these 
dominant narratives took over 

339
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:32,160
and a lot of the infrastructure 
businesses and again, like like 

340
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,240
at the end of the day, like 
marketing that would be used to 

341
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,040
communicate how you use Bitcoin.
Was. 

342
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:42,400
Set aside to make way for the 
store value narrative for 

343
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,320
speculative trading narratives 
for like, you know, just throw 

344
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,280
it in an ETF and like invest in 
that narrative. 

345
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,320
So a lot of the ways in which we
maybe would have seen that. 

346
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,560
And again, there were periods 
where we saw surges in 

347
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,640
transaction demand that 
obviously the big blocks, I 

348
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,520
would always say when you do 
that and you're not increasing 

349
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,040
the block size, you're just 
going to see the surging of 

350
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:06,800
fees. 
And like, so that has been 

351
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:08,560
historical episodes where we do 
see that. 

352
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,280
And always because the fees rise
proportional to the transaction 

353
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:16,400
demand it it basically kills the
transaction demand and people 

354
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,520
stop using it. 
So I would say. 

355
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:23,560
From the internal Bitcoin logic,
it probably could have had an 

356
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,360
alternative history. 
Where that demand was properly 

357
00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:30,120
placed inside the layer one and 
the narratives that could 

358
00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:32,240
support it would be there. 
But I would say from the 

359
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,880
outsider logic, you could say 
that crypto, there's a 

360
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,400
fundamental problem with crypto,
is that that's not how people 

361
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,560
use money. 
That's not the institutional 

362
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:44,640
environment that money can 
operate in. 

363
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,360
Where? 
People like people use their 

364
00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:50,760
bank accounts to move bank 
deposits back and forth to pay 

365
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,480
their bills, to pay each other. 
And there's there's a. 

366
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,720
Huge. 
Institutional level of trust of 

367
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,360
regulation of risk offsetting 
that goes into that that like 

368
00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:06,440
libertarian oriented people like
can't fathom and like how people

369
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:12,400
would prefer their banks And 
even in some cases more like you

370
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,520
could even say like people would
maybe even seriously trust a 

371
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,560
central bank digital currency 
might raise eyebrows with that 

372
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:23,440
more if given the chance than 
like one of these Caribbean 

373
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,040
island started crypto 
currencies. 

374
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:31,320
And that's because of a lot of 
implicit status logic that 

375
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,760
normal people just consider 
without thinking about it. 

376
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,400
It's it's so funny, like I'm, 
I'm not gonna I don't want to 

377
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,680
drive us to us off track here 
because I think there's more 

378
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,080
history to to delve into about 
this. 

379
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,000
But it's so funny because as 
you're describing this to me, 

380
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,400
I'm thinking of I'm thinking of 
the discussion that Bitcoin has 

381
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,640
in general now. 
And that discussion is like new 

382
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:58,800
ETF and like, and oh, this much 
money is being utilized to push 

383
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:03,760
money into a Bitcoin reserve or 
like whatever, whatever the idea

384
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,320
is, right, right, right, right, 
no, right. 

385
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:11,920
Exactly, which is so wild when 
you do reflect on what Satoshi, 

386
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:18,200
excuse me, Satoshi's vision, 
what it what it was, which is 

387
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,760
absolutely there was the O 8 
banking. 

388
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,960
There was the great financial 
crisis and he saw that 

389
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,080
happening. 
He saw the failures that banks 

390
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:30,240
had, not not just actual bank 
failures, but clearly saw like a

391
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,040
systemic issue and was like, oh,
this needs to be fixed. 

392
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:39,520
And now the propositional value 
of Bitcoin is like, we'll just 

393
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,240
hold the Bitcoin for as long as 
possible and then it's just 

394
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,480
keeps going up in value. 
And then people will be like, I 

395
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,640
don't even understand. 
Why would you have an ETF? 

396
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:49,840
Shouldn't people just buy 
Bitcoin? 

397
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,680
And I'm like, well, yes, but now
I actually understand why 

398
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,960
someone would just buy a Bitcoin
ETF because like you don't need 

399
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,240
to have the Bitcoin in your 
wallet anymore. 

400
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,040
You don't need cold storage 
wallets for your Bitcoin. 

401
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,800
In fact, I could really easily 
argue that an ETF is better for 

402
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:12,560
like an old person to have than 
actually having Bitcoin because 

403
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,800
you can just get fucking shot 
for your Bitcoin. 

404
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,720
Like that ETF is easier to 
insure and deal with than the 

405
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:23,160
Bitcoin in a, a cold, a cold 
storage wallet or whatever. 

406
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,840
And, and I, I, I just find it, 
it's, it's crazy 'cause it is so

407
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:31,600
different from whatever the 
initial concept was behind this 

408
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,240
stuff. 
I like, I just had to express 

409
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,840
that because this was like 
flowing through my brain as you 

410
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:40,520
were discussing this, Peter. 
And and I would just like add to

411
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,520
your statement there in thinking
about these core value 

412
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,840
propositions that everyone talks
about with Bitcoin and it's 

413
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,520
store value, which is the 
dominant one now it's medium 

414
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,280
exchange, which is less so, but 
people talk about in terms of 

415
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,680
like layer twos like ZAP or all 
this other stuff. 

416
00:24:57,120 --> 00:25:00,160
And then there's #3 which is 
like less talked about now, but 

417
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,760
is censorship resistance. 
And when you? 

418
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,960
Actually, like think through 
history and this is the and I 

419
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,000
kind of came to this like in the
20 tens. 

420
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,920
But like especially now at my 
kind of final conclusions, the 

421
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:21,600
real out of the park stellar use
case that Bitcoin gave to the 

422
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,680
market was censorship 
resistance. 

423
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,800
And it was only by providing 
that as the headline that medium

424
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,160
exchange. 
Medium exchange was a means to 

425
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,080
censorship resistance. 
And that store of value then 

426
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,960
becomes a tertiary property 
where it's like we, yeah, we 

427
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,960
want store of value. 
Like in the sense that it's 

428
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:43,640
stable. 
So. 

429
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:48,360
You can transact it as a medium 
and avoid getting it censored 

430
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:49,720
cause. 
Look, this is like, and this has

431
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,400
always been the benefit of like,
like something as simple as 

432
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,480
cash, right? 
Like if we want to just break it

433
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,640
down like that is when cash 
being valuable back in the day 

434
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,640
is like, you can't stop me from 
accumulating cash. 

435
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,080
You just can't do it. 
Like you can if I put it in a 

436
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,920
bank, you can take away my bank 
deposit. 

437
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,480
But me just having cash and 
using it on hand, you cannot 

438
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,480
stop that. 
And that is the beauty of it. 

439
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:19,200
And I think, yeah, like, clearly
that got hijacked. 

440
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,920
Wait till I fire Jerome Powell 
and see what your cash is good 

441
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:24,920
for. 
Yeah. 

442
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,240
And that's we have to get into 
the the deal. 

443
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,720
We don't need to get into all 
the conspiracies, but but yeah, 

444
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,760
I mean, you're exactly right. 
And this is where today when we 

445
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,760
talk about ETFs, when we talk 
about Bitcoin treasuries, like 

446
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,760
when I think of Bitcoin, the 
only reason it like halfway 

447
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,080
makes sense is because of the 
censorship resistance. 

448
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,280
And when you divorce it from 
that completely by having some 

449
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,880
other third party and like a 
wackadoo like a Michael Saylor 

450
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,960
managing that for you, who I 
think I think it was, you know, 

451
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,240
your very own protos that 
documented like he's there's 

452
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,760
like allegations that he's like 
doing some cockamamie stuff with

453
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,280
customer funds or his fiduciary 
responsibility. 

454
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:10,600
But we don't have to get into 
that. 

455
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,760
But the point is like, why would
you even invest in this thing in

456
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:19,640
the 1st place if you don't even 
have the inherent access to it 

457
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,680
directly? 
So you can have the censorship 

458
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,720
resistance immunity. 
So that's where it doesn't make 

459
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,160
sense other than the only thing 
people value about this is that 

460
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,240
it's a casino token and it's 
going up in value. 

461
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,960
People are gambling. 
It's the same principle where 

462
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,920
you can see people talk about 
sports gambling addictions with 

463
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,840
all these new apps. 
It's, it's the same social 

464
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,800
mechanism going on with that 
inside of crypto. 

465
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,600
And it's even you could say the 
larger equity markets because of

466
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,960
apps like Robin Hood. 
People are just gravitated to 

467
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,040
this because they're addicted to
gambling and a lot of them are 

468
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,200
chumps and getting suckered by 
whales and they don't understand

469
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:58,480
it. 
They're not actually investing 

470
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,960
in for the properties that we 
all thought Bitcoin was valuable

471
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,680
for in the early days. 
And it creates this really toxic

472
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,240
and and frankly stupid way of 
looking at an investment. 

473
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,440
In your essay, you talk about 
how this black size were in this

474
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,240
split revealed certain like 
truths of the Bitcoiner 

475
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,840
community to be myths in 
actuality. 

476
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,760
Can you talk a little bit about 
what those myths are and how 

477
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,600
they were revealed by the 
process of this split? 

478
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:33,720
Sure. 
So I think, I think the big, the

479
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,720
big one is I'll, I'll, I'll 
locate it on like 2 points. 

480
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,360
There's the software layer and 
then there's kind of the, the 

481
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:47,560
buyers and seller market layer. 
So number one, we always have 

482
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,600
this meme of. 
Bitcoins, like digital gold, 

483
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,400
it's 21 million capped, it will 
only ever be 21 million. 

484
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,960
There's this finance supply. 
No one can ever change this 

485
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,560
supply which makes it so good. 
And there will be people that 

486
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:07,880
talk about this in various 
degrees of religious paranoia. 

487
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,680
And so you can get the sort of 
like cold Turkey talking about 

488
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,240
it on a Bloomberg, but you can 
also go to the more esoteric 

489
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,600
Bitcoin podcast where it's like 
a seance where they're talking 

490
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,360
about this. 
So you have this, you have this 

491
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,320
like different degrees of 
talking about it, but it's all 

492
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,840
towards the same message. 
No one can touch the supply of 

493
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,320
Bitcoin tokens out there. 
But that is an unexamined 

494
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,760
proposition. 
And so once you start asking 

495
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,280
critical questions, you say, 
well, like how, why? 

496
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,440
You know what's going on there? 
And when I start to ask some of 

497
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,200
these questions, it just became 
obvious that it's like, OK, 

498
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,360
well, Bitcoin is not like a 
commodity that you dig out of 

499
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,720
the ground. 
It's a software and software is 

500
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,920
made by humans. 
It's also upgraded by humans. 

501
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,880
So there's a continuum of human 
interaction on this thing. 

502
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,040
So like, who are these humans? 
And so then you get into like 

503
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,600
we've talked about Bitcoin Core,
but as a, but as more of a 

504
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,680
general conception of that, 
there's only a few elite 

505
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:10,040
developers that have a role in 
actually shaping the code of 

506
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:11,840
Bitcoin. 
And the code of Bitcoin is 

507
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,160
essentially part and parcel to 
its definition of monetary 

508
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:16,840
policy, which keeps that supply 
limited. 

509
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,920
So when you think about it, it's
like 90% of bitcoins code was 

510
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,640
generated by like over 40 
people. 

511
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,720
So when you like that, that's a 
very different statement than 

512
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,160
you'll hear on all those other 
shows that talk about the 

513
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,240
religiosity of this supply cap. 
And so when you start 

514
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,400
conceptualizing that, you say, 
OK, 40 people and then there's 

515
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,440
actually like 1:00 to 5:00 
depending on the year, elite 

516
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,320
maintainers of the Bitcoin code 
that have the exclusive 

517
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:49,400
privilege to reject and upload 
new code additions into it. 

518
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,440
So that creates. 
Another layer of of privilege. 

519
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:57,320
And by privilege, you also have 
increased risk of capture by, 

520
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:03,680
you know, more, you know, nuance
factors of that are passive and 

521
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,080
things like that, but also of 
direct capture by the state or 

522
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,160
like very bad oligarchic 
interests, things like that. 

523
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:16,040
And so once you start to think 
of the developer elites in that 

524
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,720
sense, you can see it's actually
like very simple for them to 

525
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,440
either passively or actively be 
influenced in a way that they 

526
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,800
could change the code whenever 
they want. 

527
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,480
And once they change the code, 
that means they can also change 

528
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,720
the supply. 
And there has been instances 

529
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,920
where one, they've changed the 
supply and people don't really 

530
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,320
talk about it. 
Now, it's not in a huge way that

531
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,840
like causes a lot of concern, 
but I'm more concerned not in, 

532
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:47,200
you know, like the most perfect 
way to bolster my side that they

533
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,200
change it to like 40 million. 
I'm talking about the claim 

534
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,440
that's made by all those 
Bitcoiners is that no one can, 

535
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,320
that there's not a single person
on earth that can do that. 

536
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,640
And my question is, well, is it 
technically possible? 

537
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,400
Not only is it technically 
possible, it's been done before.

538
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:08,720
And then secondly, can that can 
code changes be enacted and 

539
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,880
pervade the entire market? 
And go unnoticed. 

540
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,280
By market participants. 
I And the question to that is 

541
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,200
also yes. 
Yes, that's true. 

542
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,960
That is true. 
But I But I also wanna I. 

543
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:21,280
Is it still true? 
I well. 

544
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:23,680
I don't know if it no, I don't 
know if it's still there. 

545
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,560
I'm saying it. 
Nodes are running like knots 

546
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,360
now, right? 
There was like a no inside 

547
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,920
Bitcoin core over up return and 
stuff like that. 

548
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,320
Like there are two pretty major 
node implementations running now

549
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,960
in the network. 
No, I, I, I think what I'm, what

550
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,920
I'm more suggesting is 2 things 
that he's right, that this has 

551
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,720
happened in the past, but, but 
more so I was going to point out

552
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,880
that I think as you've 
suggested, Bennett, you're like,

553
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,840
Peter's not alone here. 
But as you've suggested as well,

554
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:53,520
that like this needs to change 
at some point in the in not our 

555
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,520
lifetime. 
But if Bitcoin continues to be a

556
00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:02,000
thing in whatever it is 140 
years or whatever, how are you 

557
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,560
going to pay minors? 
And you just eventually the 

558
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,880
answer, sadly, whether or not 
these, you know, Austrian 

559
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,640
economists or whatever they want
to call themselves Sayfidine, 

560
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,680
you know, whatever. 
Like if these guys want to 

561
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,680
suggest that it can just go on 
without increasing supply 

562
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,760
forever, They got to figure out 
some other implementation that 

563
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,800
they can keep people in invested
and incentivized to stay in the 

564
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:28,800
ecosystem. 
Because if you don't increase 

565
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:33,520
supply, it doesn't work. 
And and like I, that's just I, 

566
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,320
that's kind of like how 
economics works. 

567
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,320
I don't know. 
I don't know how you secure the 

568
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,160
system if you don't do that at 
some point. 

569
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,320
Yeah, and just just to add like 
and I and I don't need to like 

570
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,520
aggrandize anyone's one 
statement or their position in 

571
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,680
Bitcoin. 
But a character that's a 

572
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,320
developer like Peter Todd has 
literally advocated for the 

573
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:59,640
concept of increasing the the 
the supply cap to do more 

574
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:04,080
subsidy rewards to make sure 
that minor fee crisis doesn't 

575
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,040
happen. 
So if that gets implemented, 

576
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,199
that's another question. 
How influential is Todd? 

577
00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:11,360
Another question. 
But the point is that this is a 

578
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,600
conversation point inside that 
developer community. 

579
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:16,920
And so that's where you look at 
that. 

580
00:34:17,159 --> 00:34:21,639
You look at the fact that while 
there are competing things like 

581
00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:25,600
knots now, there's like a whole 
funny like recreation of like 

582
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,040
Bitcoin core conspiracy in for, 
for people today. 

583
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,159
I I think the point is like 
it's, it's a question of like 

584
00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:37,040
market dominance. 
How do like kind of natural 

585
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,400
monopolies form? 
How do competitors within the 

586
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,840
open source software community? 
And the wider sort of way we 

587
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,679
engage with open source 
software, which is like, we'd 

588
00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:50,560
love to think it's like all of 
the cool people that can 

589
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,120
download this open source 
software and run it themselves. 

590
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,360
But like the reality is that 
doesn't really matter as so much

591
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:02,600
as the limited access ramps of 
exchanges and the buyers and 

592
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,400
sellers on top of that that 
actually determine who is in the

593
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,280
dominant position. 
So that's where you could we 

594
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,080
could say not is it like an 
interesting example of people 

595
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,880
realizing A incumbent developer 
group is distorting the project 

596
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,360
in a way they don't like. 
So they create this competitor, 

597
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,360
but they're just recreating the 
failed thinking of like a 

598
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,280
Bitcoin Cash or some of these 
other projects which have tried 

599
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,880
to do that and have ultimately 
wound up on the dustbin of 

600
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:34,000
history. 
And like, it's an even I would 

601
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,600
say it's an even more of an 
uphill battle today because back

602
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,720
then there was still like a 
grassroots like level playing 

603
00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:44,920
field to some degree. 
Now, like you're competing with 

604
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,680
like the government is 
essentially, you know, part of 

605
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:55,080
the Bitcoin elite cadre now. 
And I don't think the government

606
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,200
is really going to let like 
anyone, let alone the 

607
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,560
government, but like anyone 
that's like doing an ETF of 

608
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,160
Bitcoin and, and getting really 
involved in it. 

609
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,880
Like there's just way too much 
institutional support around 

610
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:08,120
this. 
And it's an institutional 

611
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:13,680
support that's that's frankly 
either like, like bad people 

612
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,320
that don't care about the values
and like how it works. 

613
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,760
They just want to make money and
stupid people like there are 

614
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,120
boomers that have a lot of money
and access to capital that are 

615
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,320
just like throwing 2% at this or
trying it out because that's 

616
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:30,280
what they see on CNBC and 
they're just dumb. 

617
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:31,640
They just don't know what this 
is. 

618
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,080
They don't care about the 
mechanics of it, why people 

619
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,080
invented in the 1st place, why 
people advocate for it. 

620
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,880
And so you just have all these 
lemmings that are going to keep 

621
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,280
pushing this dominant incumbent,
a Bitcoin version ahead. 

622
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,400
And no matter what competitors 
like Knotts or in the past like 

623
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,600
Bitcoin Cash has tried to do, 
they can't really fight that 

624
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,640
uphill battle. 
So it sounds like what we're 

625
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,600
kind of getting at is Bitcoin 
ends up being what people agree 

626
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,200
Bitcoin is. 
And with that as the context, 

627
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,320
you want to talk a little bit 
about the fight for the BTC 

628
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,800
ticker towards the end of 2017 
and kind of some of the games 

629
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,040
the different parties were 
playing to be the real Bitcoin 

630
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,960
in that era? 
Yes, so, so I would say, I 

631
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,120
mentioned earlier that Bitcoin 
Cash was not even a figment of 

632
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,720
anyone's imagination in the 
spring of 2017 when the New York

633
00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:28,040
agreement was signed. 
And I would say from that New 

634
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,760
York agreement through the 
summer into November where it 

635
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:38,200
was scheduled to go live, but 
ultimately it was cancelled due 

636
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,280
to allege. 
Lack of consensus of the 

637
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,840
community, which was never which
I make a point in my essay. 

638
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,360
It was never measured. 
That was never stated in the 

639
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:52,640
cancellation letter that was 
given out that what the numbers 

640
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,320
were like, what percentage of 
the community said what. 

641
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,920
So like there was never an 
argument of what is the actual 

642
00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:03,040
quantitative measurement of 
support for this or that. 

643
00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:06,200
Version. 
But besides the point, the 

644
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:11,480
mimetic sphere of it, the the 
pressure campaign, the narrow 

645
00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:15,800
concentrated channels that led 
to that result influenced the 

646
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:21,280
cancellation of and block size 
upgrade on the Bitcoin BTC 

647
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,800
blockchain itself. 
And I would say that was the 

648
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,960
dominant side of big blockers 
all through this period and 

649
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:33,480
Bitcoin Cash, which was created 
like August 1st of 2017. 

650
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,040
It was not. 
I mean, again, we'll never know.

651
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,960
Some of the closed door 
conversations that were had, but

652
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,720
as far as what's we can read 
that's publicly available, it 

653
00:38:43,720 --> 00:38:48,840
was a minority group of the big 
blockers that set that up. 

654
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:55,120
And it from my reading, it is 
likely when I look at some of 

655
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,440
the documentation around it, it 
is likely some form of Chinese 

656
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,560
miners that that let I don't 
know who, but that that's my 

657
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,520
sort of I don't. 
Know who? 

658
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,000
Yeah, I'm, I'm just saying like.
I'm just calling. 

659
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:13,680
Like what evidence I can, but I 
can pinpoint when you read some 

660
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,080
of the letters of launching 
Bitcoin Cash or especially the 

661
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:18,680
flipping letter which we can get
into later. 

662
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,240
Like what I what I look at there
is it is clearly not American 

663
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:25,760
English that was used to write 
that. 

664
00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:31,160
And when I think about that, I 
think, OK, well, you know, it 

665
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,000
makes sense that it maybe it's 
like UK English used in Hong 

666
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,040
Kong. 
And so that's like how that's 

667
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,880
one of these connections that I 
make of like how you might think

668
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,000
about that. 
But point being, it was a 

669
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,200
splinter of a minority of big 
blockers that started Bitcoin 

670
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:51,720
Cash on August 1st, 2017. 
By the time November hits and 

671
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:56,880
the big block version on BTC is 
cancelled, now basically there's

672
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,520
no other alternative to doing 
this. 

673
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,600
So the flipping letter, which I 
mentioned is released early 

674
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,720
November right along the time 
that the upgrade gets cancelled 

675
00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:10,680
on BTC. 
And this letter is just a call 

676
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:15,040
to action to say, hey, we're 
going to get all of our 

677
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,360
collective mining hash power, 
we're going to take it off 

678
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,720
Bitcoin BTC and we're going to 
put it on Bitcoin Cash BCH. 

679
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,880
And when we do that, that's 
going to be a huge signal to the

680
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,280
market that this is the chain 
that's going to survive. 

681
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,880
And by doing that one, we're 
going to harm the actual 

682
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,520
operation of BTC in terms of 
processing transactions. 

683
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:42,200
And in a very kind of like long 
term rollout, ultimately the BTC

684
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,920
chain would like freeze it would
it would become nonfunctional of

685
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:50,240
enough hash power left I So by 
doing that on an operational 

686
00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:52,760
level with minor hash power, 
that would then be a signal to 

687
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,080
the market on exchanges, hey, 
get in on Bitcoin Cash because 

688
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:57,560
this is the one the miners are 
choosing. 

689
00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,680
This is the only one that's 
going to survive in the long 

690
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:01,680
term. 
And they could use their 

691
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,080
exorbitant holdings of different
cryptos and whatever dollar 

692
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:10,760
value or bond value they have 
and drop that on the exchanges 

693
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:15,520
to initialize that that fire 
sell of BTC and increased buying

694
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,280
pressure of VCH. 
And so this was like the 

695
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,440
critical moment where a lot of 
people kind of then or at least 

696
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:28,840
on a, on a short term, like very
loose connective tissue way I 

697
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,120
think went in on the Bitcoin 
Cash flipping narrative. 

698
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,480
And so that's where we see once 
we start getting into November 

699
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,200
8th, November 9th, especially 
November 10th, they actually do 

700
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:40,480
it. 
They flip the hash power. 

701
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:46,840
So Bitcoin Cash's blockchain 
hash power flips BTCS and yeah, 

702
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,640
it, it, it is, it's quite 
impressive feat to like do that 

703
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,240
big switch and get enough people
to to do that. 

704
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:57,720
Now they could never actually 
make the same dent on the 

705
00:41:57,720 --> 00:42:00,800
exchanges. 
And so ultimately to your 

706
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:05,000
question, the ticker, if they 
were able to flip the prices, 

707
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:11,840
they would be able to say we 
have the most hash power, we are

708
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,200
the higher priced and like we 
and like, you know, whatever 

709
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,400
other metric you want to say we 
have the most use, we have the 

710
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:18,480
most transactions, we have the 
most. 

711
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:24,200
This eventually that would then 
lead the community to have to 

712
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:28,080
award the BTC ticker in some 
sense and kind of like the 

713
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,760
singular name of the Bitcoin to 
Bitcoin Cash. 

714
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,840
And this is something that 
exchanges like in their own ways

715
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:41,800
of dealing with the fall of 2017
leading up to this, they had 

716
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,200
back and forths of how would 
they deal with this? 

717
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:45,840
Like there's two bitcoins 
operating now. 

718
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:53,040
And a number of them indicated 
that based on how Bitcoin 

719
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,880
definitions work, the chain with
the most amount of hash power 

720
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:05,400
for a given amount of time that 
makes it like undeniable would 

721
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:10,280
have to be declared the BTC, the
Bitcoin, the original Bitcoin, 

722
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:15,520
all that stuff. 
And so there there was a agreed 

723
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:20,240
upon idea that that would be the
way to win the ticker. 

724
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,480
The hash power certainly went 
that way. 

725
00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:26,880
The exchange volume, 
interestingly enough, also the 

726
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:31,200
the exchange volume for BCH 
actually did slightly flip BTC 

727
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,600
at one point, but the prices 
could never like there, there 

728
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,280
was this like real resistance to
the prices changing. 

729
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,720
And so I get into a lot more of 
the technicality of that later, 

730
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:43,760
but that's essentially what 
happened. 

731
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,600
And that was the rationale for 
why people were fighting over 

732
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,880
this ticker. 
And and ultimately, if you can 

733
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,800
win that ticker, which again, 
this is this is like a larger 

734
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:55,760
question outside of Bitcoin 
logic. 

735
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,000
This is like the ideas of 
natural monopolies. 

736
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,000
This is the idea of how do 
market failures. 

737
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,360
Happen. 
Yeah, in nature. 

738
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,880
And like what do you do about 
fraudulent advertising? 

739
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:10,720
What do you do about this or 
that deceptive behavior which if

740
00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:13,640
like we were operating in a 
regular business environment 

741
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,200
that most other companies have 
to operate in? 

742
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,640
Maybe some of the tactics and 
communications would have been 

743
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,680
different, especially in terms 
of companies that have 

744
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,560
influential power from a 
software level to a minor level 

745
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:29,800
to an exchange level. 
To a money printer level. 

746
00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:33,560
Having severe conflicts of 
interest they did not disclose. 

747
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:39,600
It's it's really, it's fun to go
back over this because this is 

748
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,720
literally when I Bennett, I 
don't I, I think you and I 

749
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,680
literally got involved at the 
exact same time in all of this. 

750
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,320
Like a month and a half apart is
our first tweets on crypto or 

751
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:51,640
something? 
Like that, right? 

752
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,400
So I think we both got involved 
in this in the exact same time. 

753
00:44:54,720 --> 00:44:58,320
And what I found myself I, I was
basically, I started as a troll 

754
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,960
and I was just trolling Bitfinex
and Tether employees basically 

755
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,920
like that was my main operation 
and then. 

756
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,560
Very shortly thereafter, I did 
Elon Carlo. 

757
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,760
Or did Elon Carlo come? 
No, I started with, I started as

758
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:17,840
a Giancarlo clone and then I 
became Elon Carlo and then and 

759
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:19,560
then I started actually writing 
articles. 

760
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:24,760
But but I did, I did have a a 
shift here. 

761
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:29,080
And I think what I started 
noticing in November, December 

762
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:34,280
of 2017, I guess December of 
2017 is that suddenly there were

763
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:38,520
a bunch of people involved with 
Bitcoin Cash who were following 

764
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:42,560
me and, you know, talking to me 
about this stuff, even though I 

765
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,080
was involved in something I 
thought was completely 

766
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:49,280
unrelated, which is to say 
Tether, Bitfinex, like those 

767
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,960
were the main things that I was 
following thanks to an account 

768
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:56,040
called Bitfinex, who I don't, I 
don't know how active he is 

769
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,880
anymore, but you know, was, was 
very important in all of this. 

770
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,800
I think just even for calling 
out Tether as shady like that 

771
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:10,320
enough was incredibly important.
And but the stuff that he was 

772
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:15,760
discussing about what Tether was
doing and Bitfenix was do what 

773
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,240
they were doing together and 
this false claim of not being 

774
00:46:19,240 --> 00:46:21,720
involved with each other, they 
lied about everything, right? 

775
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:25,960
They lied about anyone they were
involved with and they lied 

776
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:27,880
about block stream being 
involved. 

777
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,400
They lied about other people 
being involved with them. 

778
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,080
And I think that is when I 
started getting all of these 

779
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:40,400
people who were very worried 
about the block size war in my 

780
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,360
mentions. 
And that's when I became even 

781
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:46,800
really aware of the blocks. 
Like I knew about it, but I got 

782
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,600
invested in it when a bunch of 
people were like, hey, Tether's 

783
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,920
involved in this, Bitfinex is 
involved in this. 

784
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:55,520
I don't know how much truth 
there is to that to this day. 

785
00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:01,560
Probably some truth. 
I, I mean, I think, I do think 

786
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,200
Bitfinex and Tether had a, a 
vested interest in this for 

787
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,600
sure. 
So I like, I do appreciate that 

788
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,320
to this day. 
But it, it like just talking 

789
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:15,480
about this, I immediately go 
back to 2017 and 2018 where this

790
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,240
is, this is what was happening 
Tether at the time. 

791
00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:22,360
For anyone in who doesn't 
understand where we're coming 

792
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,560
from here, Tether at the time 
was worth less than a billion 

793
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,120
dollars. 
It's worth almost 100 what, like

794
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:31,520
$200 billion? 
Now less than 100 million at the

795
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:33,080
end of 2017. 
Right. 

796
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:34,200
This was like, this was 
something. 

797
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,160
January 20, 1710 Million Tether 
Supply. 

798
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,440
Right. 
Right by the end of the year. 

799
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,800
Summer and was like close to 100
million by the end of that year 

800
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,280
I think, but. 
Nothing compared to now, which 

801
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,160
is just wild to think about 
because I like all of it is so. 

802
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:50,720
We don't know why we lost our 
minds. 

803
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,640
It's yeah, it's extraordinary. 
It's just extraordinary. 

804
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,000
And I, I like I, I have nothing 
to say, like nothing to say 

805
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,040
about it about. 
I think you've made good points,

806
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:04,440
Peter, but I just am like, Oh my
God, it's so crazy to be driven 

807
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:08,200
right back to that point where 
everything could be different 

808
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,320
today, everything. 
And but this does talk about, 

809
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:12,960
right. 
This talks about like tether, 

810
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,440
you know, it's crazy. 
Tether is like the most 

811
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:21,840
important aspect of any crypt, 
any chain that it's on, like the

812
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,760
use case for Etherium or Solana 
or whatever is based on how or 

813
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:30,080
Tron for that matter. 
Like it's it's all based on like

814
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:33,720
how many Tether transactions 
happen on the blockchain now, 

815
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:39,320
which is like, it started out as
a Bitcoin, like a little 

816
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,840
offshoot of Bitcoin, like a 
memo, a memo pad on blockchain 

817
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,160
on, on Bitcoin blockchain. 
Like it, it has morphed into 

818
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,800
something completely fucking 
different now and is a serious 

819
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,960
driving point. 
And to your point, can like make

820
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,760
or break a blockchain, right? 
So, Peter, perhaps you can talk 

821
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,360
about why these big blockers 
were following Cass and 

822
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,200
interested in Tether and Bit 
Fenix? 

823
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:06,120
Sure. 
So, so the problem for me in 

824
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:15,400
2017 was as I laid out there was
all of this market evidence that

825
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,680
the support and dominant 
position was for the big box 

826
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:20,800
side. 
And then so you can look at it 

827
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,040
from the New York agreement, you
can look at it from the very low

828
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,000
support for the small blockers 
measured by the user activated 

829
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:31,120
software, software listening 
note count under 20%. 

830
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:36,520
It's like anyone can look that 
up and just like there, there 

831
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:38,920
were so many ways you could say 
like it doesn't make sense. 

832
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,280
This has to be the way from a 
from a measuring of the support 

833
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,840
level to the way that this is 
designed to work in the long 

834
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:47,400
term. 
It this is the only way it can 

835
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,680
be. 
So when it ultimately like the 

836
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:54,520
big box, I'd lost its first like
the major battle in November 

837
00:49:54,720 --> 00:49:59,600
2017 and subsequently like the 
the sort of the, the year here 

838
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:03,680
of like, like we're going to get
them with Bitcoin cash of like 

839
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:07,760
2018 through 2019, which 
ultimately was disappointing. 

840
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:12,520
Like that sort of like last gasp
of, of trying to win it out. 

841
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:18,360
Like I, I couldn't really quite 
understand like how like 

842
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:21,760
everything believing in free 
markets, everything would tell 

843
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:23,840
you this is the way it should 
have worked out, but it's like 

844
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:25,640
it it doesn't add up. 
How did this happen? 

845
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,000
And that's. 
Where I was able to finally like

846
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,400
kind of put the puzzle pieces of
Tether together. 

847
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:36,440
And once you do that, you 
realize that, oh, so the markets

848
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,920
were manipulated. 
So that's where we start with 

849
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,520
that first point that I made 
where there's the software 

850
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:47,520
level, level of elite developers
that have risk of being captured

851
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,880
by oligarchs or the government 
and could pervert the 

852
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,760
blockchain. 
Now, what everyone says, and I 

853
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:57,200
had a lot of criticism from the 
peanut gallery on my article 

854
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:01,640
about this, Peter Ryan says 
that, you know, the 21 million 

855
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,240
cap can be changed at every time
with a click of a keyboard. 

856
00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:06,040
That's not true. 
You know, there's all this like,

857
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:07,720
blah, blah, blah, decentralized 
consensus. 

858
00:51:08,720 --> 00:51:12,600
And it's like, I realize that. 
And this is where like, that's 

859
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:14,600
like the first section of my 
essay. 

860
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,920
And then I go. 
Into examining that rebuttal, I 

861
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,800
preempted that. 
So that preemption rebuttal is 

862
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:27,440
that then the community only has
the recourse of the market and 

863
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:33,360
the market is defined by the few
exchanges available that buyers 

864
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,600
and sellers can interact to 
trade these coins and determine 

865
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,960
what has the highest price, what
has the biggest market cap, so 

866
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,880
forth and so forth. 
So that is the only veto the 

867
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,720
community really has if the 
software developers go off the 

868
00:51:47,720 --> 00:51:49,960
rails. 
And so once you start looking at

869
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:53,280
that, you say 1, there's not a 
lot of exchanges. 

870
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,760
Like when we say the market, we 
always think this like amorphous

871
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,520
cloud that's you can never 
quantify. 

872
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,000
And like there's always a 
competitor that can come in to 

873
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:05,680
like check the, the privilege 
and monopoly power of someone 

874
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:07,600
else. 
There's always buyers and 

875
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,600
sellers coming through. 
And it's like 1, There's a very 

876
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:12,840
limited amount of buyers and 
sellers to begin with. 

877
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:17,240
And it's like way, way dominated
by whales in the system that 

878
00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:19,480
could talk to each other, 
coordinate all this type of 

879
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,680
stuff. 
Then the actual operators of the

880
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:26,080
exchanges, like at any given 
time, like especially in this 

881
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:30,640
27/20/17 window, you know, 
there's like a dozen exchanges 

882
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:34,240
that actually make or break 
Bitcoin and what everyone said 

883
00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:39,080
also in 2017 and, and like 
Nathaniel Popper said this like 

884
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:41,320
Bifinex is the biggest exchange 
in the world. 

885
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:43,320
This is the exchange that like 
makes or breaks Bitcoin. 

886
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,400
And I document like quotes like 
that from him and others. 

887
00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:50,240
So like Biffinex was a very 
dominant player and there was 

888
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:54,800
also like a just a few handful 
of these exchanges that 

889
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:56,280
mattered. 
So it's like that. 

890
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,120
To be clear to this day, right, 
like this is, I don't want 

891
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:01,360
you're, you're making it sound 
like this is only back in the 

892
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:03,360
day, but I just want to I want 
to be serious, like. 

893
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,600
Way more than Bitfinex does now.
No, that's, but that's what I'm 

894
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:08,880
saying. 
I'm saying there are like 3 

895
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,320
exchanges that matter to this 
day, right? 

896
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:16,320
Like just like in 2017, 
2018-2019, there's three that 

897
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,160
matter. 
Now there's three that matter 

898
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,920
then the names might be 
different, but it doesn't really

899
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,280
matter. 
Like the, the, you know, like 

900
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:27,480
you control those 3 exchanges, 
you control the inflows and 

901
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:31,120
outflows that or, or whatever, 
Like you, you are pushing the 

902
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:36,760
most out of finance or Coinbase 
or whoever, right? 

903
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:41,920
Like the OK EX or whatever the 
hell is in the lead at the, this

904
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:45,840
time, right? 
Like you, you are a market force

905
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,520
and you are changing minds. 
And I think it it like it's it 

906
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:54,800
was true then and it's true now.
And like the choices that 

907
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,240
individual exchanges make that 
make them distinct from other 

908
00:53:58,240 --> 00:54:05,520
exchanges are also distortive 
outsize distortion effects on 

909
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:08,520
the general community. 
So for instance, Bifinex was one

910
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:11,560
of the few exchanges that like 
offered a lot of margin lending.

911
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:15,680
It also offered the only 
shorting of the two big block 

912
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:20,040
small block chains leading up to
the fall of when this big event 

913
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:21,880
was supposed to happen in 
November 2017. 

914
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:27,880
And so like, these are ways in 
which, sure, you know, ABC 

915
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:32,120
Exchange that might not have 
shorting, that might not have 

916
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:35,360
this or that feature. 
But if Bit Fenix is doing it, 

917
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,280
that creates a communication 
through the community that says,

918
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:42,560
well, if this is happening on 
Bit Fenix, then like it's, you 

919
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:45,640
know, that probably shapes my 
opinion of how I trade on ABC 

920
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:47,760
Exchange. 
So we should add. 

921
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,680
We should also add for those who
weren't around at this time, bit

922
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,560
Fenix was the largest exchange 
and it was also one of the only 

923
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:57,560
one with anything resembling 
like Fiat banking rails. 

924
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:00,520
There was an even smaller number
who had that, and the rest were 

925
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:03,560
left to rely on this other firm 
called Tether. 

926
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:08,040
Yeah. 
So so this is where I start to 

927
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:12,360
get into like how tethers 
influence, how exchange 

928
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:14,800
influence like shape the 
results. 

929
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:15,920
Of the block size. 
War. 

930
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:19,320
And so again, like I don't need 
everyone to agree with me. 

931
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:23,800
I might have a very unique 
conclusion on how I do that, but

932
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:28,480
the way that I look at it is 
that one from the Bitcoin 

933
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:34,800
cashers, what's very evident is 
that they first suffered from a 

934
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:41,280
like silo problem where the 
majority of I think their 

935
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:46,280
trading volume in the flipping 
attack that they did was 

936
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:49,440
occurring not. 
Uniformly across the exchanges 

937
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:51,480
of the world. 
What ended up happening was 

938
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:56,920
because they were largely led by
Chinese miners and thus a lot of

939
00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:00,880
their holdings and volume would 
be from Chinese miners. 

940
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:06,160
The Chinese miners had a 
disproportionate utilization of 

941
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:11,200
South Korean exchanges bid on. 
So what ends up happening is 

942
00:56:11,240 --> 00:56:14,760
during the flipping. 
All of that volume. 

943
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,360
Goes towards One South Korean 
exchange. 

944
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:23,560
And in the middle of them using 
that exchange, the exchange has 

945
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:27,160
a massive server crash and it 
shuts down. 

946
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:34,440
And so their trading pressure, 
their trading attack just for 

947
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:37,160
no, for no other reason than a 
technical glitch, that's all we 

948
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:38,960
can say. 
From what's publicly available, 

949
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:42,640
it's it stopped them in their 
tracks. 

950
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:44,880
There was no. 
Way that they could keep up that

951
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:47,880
pressure because they simply 
just couldn't trade and then 

952
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:51,880
there was all of this panic 
around oh shoot I've I've lost 

953
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:55,600
my money what's going to happen 
and like you know getting to the

954
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:59,840
exit door and things like that 
so that was an initial problem I

955
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:05,160
don't think the Bitcoin cashers 
with their flipping plans really

956
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:08,680
like it was actually like a 
glaring problem with them that 

957
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:12,120
they couldn't think through like
hey if we just like throw tons 

958
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:15,000
of like unprecedented volume at 
this One South Korean exchange 

959
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:17,880
is that going to create a 
problem versus like uniformly 

960
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,760
distributing it and so they 
never no one consider that and 

961
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:24,320
so they crash the servers it 
stops them in the tracks that 

962
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:28,640
leaves the main conduit. 
Of the market where the Bitcoin 

963
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:31,960
buying and selling pressure that
was pushing up Bitcoin Cash and 

964
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:35,840
pushing down BTC was occurring, 
which means you have the other 

965
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:39,160
exchange is still alive and 
dominated by Bit Fenix. 

966
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:40,600
And so then the unique thing 
about Bit. 

967
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:44,480
Fenix, as we said, they had a 
very natural conflict of 

968
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:47,080
interest because they were a 
seed investor in block stream 

969
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:50,560
that offered a layer 2 that 
would be incentivized to freeze 

970
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:52,080
the blocks. 
And they own Tether. 

971
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:54,000
Yeah. 
And so that was the other thing.

972
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,720
And then it comes, then it comes
out they own tether as well, and

973
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:02,160
tether being. 
This synthetic dollar trading 

974
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:04,840
instrument that was going on in 
all the crypto exchanges and 

975
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,480
that would come out later, it 
just proven they were unbacked. 

976
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:11,160
They would have a one to one peg
with the dollar that they 

977
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:15,000
alleged had perfect redemption 
whenever you wanted for 100% of 

978
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:16,800
the value of what it would 
alleged to be worth. 

979
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:18,320
It turns out that wasn't the 
case. 

980
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:19,680
They were fractionally 
reserving. 

981
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:25,920
And even more egregious is that 
they weren't exactly just 

982
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:30,640
accepting money, in my opinion, 
and then sort of like spending 

983
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:33,560
it out and then, you know, doing
it that way where they get the 

984
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:35,560
money and then they drain it and
that's the fraction. 

985
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:37,880
But instead they were getting 
some money, but they were 

986
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,880
printing and that's how they 
were creating the fractional 

987
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:44,280
reserve. 
And so when you look at it from 

988
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,560
this perspective, you have all 
the conflicted interest parties 

989
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:54,120
in this Nexus and they have this
documented unbacked money 

990
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,560
printer that's doing synthetic 
dollars that is really directed 

991
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:00,880
at Bitfinex specifically. 
And it's two other conduit 

992
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:02,160
exchanges we don't have to get 
into. 

993
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:09,680
But what you basically have 
happened is that these unbacked 

994
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:17,800
printed dollar instruments were 
used on the very preferential 

995
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:21,320
interested exchanges for Bitcoin
BTC in the small box. 

996
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:25,880
And so I think you can look at 
it from an acute way and I 

997
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:31,240
document like how tethers supply
and trading volume, how it 

998
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:33,560
actually operates in the 
specific window of the 

999
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:35,360
flippining in those few days of 
November. 

1000
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:39,760
And it kind of seems like there 
is this like mad dash to print 

1001
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:44,560
tethers to create like combative
selling and buying pressure to 

1002
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:48,240
stop the flippining. 
But I realized like that that's 

1003
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:51,640
a harder pill to swallow for 
people and might show more 

1004
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:53,520
scepticism. 
But I would say even if you 

1005
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:57,880
don't want to look at that as 
like a very reactionary use of 

1006
00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:02,080
the unprint of the unbacked 
printed tethers, there is still 

1007
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:05,120
the obtuse argument of looking 
at it where at the end of the 

1008
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:08,680
day, they started in January 
2017 at like 10 million supply. 

1009
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:13,360
And then by like February 2018, 
you know, they're at like 200 

1010
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:15,160
million, maybe something like 
that. 

1011
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:19,280
And. 
When you look at it that way, 

1012
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:22,240
you see this it, it, it's just 
like crazy growth. 

1013
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,680
And when you? 
Just see that whether it was 

1014
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:29,640
like a reactionary short term 
combative burst that they did to

1015
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:34,400
stop this flipping or it was in 
actuality more of a passive. 

1016
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:38,240
Way in which they they they 
didn't excuse them of anything, 

1017
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:42,640
it's just they were able to 
print these unbacked reserve 

1018
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:46,800
tethers. 
That would bolster their side in

1019
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:53,080
a very steady and long term way.
That would whether Bitcoin Cash 

1020
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:57,640
emerged or not, it was always 
going to prop up their chosen 

1021
01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:01,320
Bitcoin small block BTC. 
And and any. 

1022
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:04,400
Other challenger like Etherium 
or this, even though tethers 

1023
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:08,960
would naturally spill over into 
inflating the wider crypto 

1024
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:12,400
market. 
And so that's where I think you,

1025
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:14,600
you could argue from both 
perspective, the acute or the 

1026
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:18,520
obtuse way, but the, the more, 
the, the easier argument is the 

1027
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:21,080
obtuse way and that still 
doesn't excuse anybody. 

1028
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:27,160
So I, I think that gets to this 
point of the market basically 

1029
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:29,640
had a failure there. 
There were these manipulators 

1030
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:31,960
that were fraudulent, that were 
lying about who they were. 

1031
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:34,680
Partnered with who their 
investor in lying about their 

1032
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:41,680
reserves and and basically using
this counterfeit mechanism to. 

1033
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:44,600
Distort the market where, you 
know, a dozen people decided who

1034
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:48,000
won the block size. 
It wasn't like the myriad of 

1035
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:50,200
millions of Bitcoin buyers and 
sellers. 

1036
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:56,240
And I think that is the real 
window into revealing how 

1037
01:01:57,440 --> 01:01:59,640
everything then cascades from 
that. 

1038
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:03,280
The dominoes fall on all these 
myths of bitcoins start to fall.

1039
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:05,880
I, I, I, I do. 
I will say I find it very 

1040
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:08,360
fascinating that I, I, I don't 
know how this has never come to 

1041
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:12,680
to my own brain, but I do 
understand a, a kind of 

1042
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:17,640
conspiratorial idea of like, 
well, the people involved in 

1043
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:24,120
tether, of course, are going to 
want not cryptocurrency to be 

1044
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:29,880
super easy as a, you know, Moe 
like they don't want this to be 

1045
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:34,680
like, because the more they're 
able to establish themselves. 

1046
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:39,160
Yeah, but Omni, back then, they 
needed low fees, you know? 

1047
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:42,480
Yeah, that's true. 
You know, you know, it's, yeah, 

1048
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:44,720
you know, it's just funny. 
While I was writing these essays

1049
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:50,520
this summer, what was what was 
hilarious is like it started to 

1050
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:52,520
dawn on me. 
Too, It's like, well, what is 

1051
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:53,880
like, what are what are stable 
coins? 

1052
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:57,680
They're medium exchanges. 
So like one, it's like they're 

1053
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:01,040
like whether they. 
Are investing in like a layer 2 

1054
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:05,760
that has more of an inherent 
utilization of crypto tokens and

1055
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:10,080
decentralized principles. 
Like they themselves are 

1056
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:13,840
centralized third parties that 
operate medium exchanges. 

1057
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:16,960
And then it was like June, I was
like blown away. 

1058
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:19,680
There was a story that was 
released like Tether is actually

1059
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:22,600
pioneering their own native 
blockchain for Tethers. 

1060
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:25,600
And then it's like holy crap, 
like they don't even need crypto

1061
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:27,920
anymore. 
They don't need to run on top of

1062
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:31,040
native blockchains. 
They're working on USDT 0 and 

1063
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:32,400
stable. 
Yeah. 

1064
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:35,640
So, you know, probably there's 
like ways in which they haven't 

1065
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:37,400
revealed yet like exactly how 
they work. 

1066
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:40,520
And they might still like 
operate on top of crypto rails, 

1067
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:45,000
but it just goes to show like, 
wow, like from just a use case 

1068
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:47,800
perspective, they literally are 
medium exchanges that compete 

1069
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:49,800
with player 1 blockchain 
transactions. 

1070
01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:55,040
And two, they are actually like.
Doing away with the necessity to

1071
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:58,920
exist within a layer one 
decentralized blockchain 

1072
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:00,920
paradigm. 
And so like there's a day in 

1073
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:03,600
which you you can you can 
hypothesize. 

1074
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:05,400
I'm not saying like this is 
what's going to happen. 

1075
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:08,600
I'm just saying it's easy to see
a scenario where these 

1076
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:13,680
stablecoin native blockchains 
exist as layer ones and it just 

1077
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:18,600
becomes this obsolecion of like.
Why do you need like? 

1078
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:23,240
Decentralized non stablecoin 
crypto especially like, you 

1079
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:26,440
know, hey, the government is all
supported of stable coins and 

1080
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:33,240
it's this perfect crude, you 
know, right winger argument that

1081
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:36,040
somehow like makes sense in 
people's minds that well, yes, 

1082
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:38,440
the government totally supports 
this thing and is in bed with 

1083
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:42,000
them, but also it's like the 
exact opposite of a central bank

1084
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:43,720
digital currency. 
But in reality, it's like it's 

1085
01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:46,360
essentially that. 
Yeah. 

1086
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:49,880
Can I jump in with an alternate 
explanation for Bitfinex and 

1087
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:52,880
Tether during this era? 
Because like September 15th, 

1088
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:56,640
2017 is when they open their 
account at Noble Bank and 

1089
01:04:56,640 --> 01:04:59,960
Friedman does their attestation 
showing that in that account 

1090
01:04:59,960 --> 01:05:01,800
they have all the dollars 
they're supposed to to back 

1091
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:03,640
Tether. 
We don't definitively know 

1092
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:07,000
they're unbacked again until 
like March of 2018 based on the 

1093
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:08,440
New York Attorney General 
report. 

1094
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:11,280
So during this period, there's 
at least some evidence they have

1095
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:13,720
at least most of the assets 
they're supposed to. 

1096
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:18,880
The split between Bitcoiners and
Bitcoin Cash is in some extent, 

1097
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:21,640
and it doesn't cleanly map onto 
this, but a split between like 

1098
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:25,600
holders and transactors. 
And holders tend to have more of

1099
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:27,880
the currency than transactors 
do, right? 

1100
01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:30,600
Businesses have to pay out their
payroll and things like that. 

1101
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:32,760
And so they're not keeping as 
much on hand. 

1102
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:36,000
You have this split occur and 
across the various exchanges, 

1103
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:39,280
you have the Bitcoin people who 
received their Bitcoin Cash 

1104
01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:42,840
selling their Bitcoin Cash, but 
the Bitcoin Cash people don't 

1105
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:45,960
necessarily have as much Bitcoin
they can sell. 

1106
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:48,840
And even among the Bitcoin Cash 
people, there were a variety of 

1107
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:52,280
people who were willing to hold 
on to their Bitcoin Cash, but 

1108
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:54,960
we're not fully willing to part 
with their Bitcoin, at least 

1109
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:57,960
until they had a better 
understanding of how the next 

1110
01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:00,560
few weeks, months or years were 
going to shake out. 

1111
01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:04,040
And like that to me provides a 
lot of the same like price 

1112
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:06,120
dynamics we ended up seeing on 
the exchanges. 

1113
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:09,440
Explains why Bitcoin Cash's 
volume went up, but it's price 

1114
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:12,480
never seemed to compete with 
Bitcoin and doesn't involve at 

1115
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:15,800
all a money printer or unbacked 
dollar derivatives. 

1116
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:17,240
Yeah. 
So I mean. 

1117
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:19,760
That's that's plausible. 
And like I'll say that happened 

1118
01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:23,600
like that, like that's a part of
the reality of what happened. 

1119
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:26,920
And I would say like I made this
criticism of miners before as 

1120
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:31,800
well that like again, because 
like miners are an argument, how

1121
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:35,200
miners are defined, what they're
proposed to do in the community,

1122
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:37,920
like they're a very central part
of how Satoshi. 

1123
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:40,120
Cryptocurrency miners. 
To be clear, we're not. 

1124
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:44,040
Yeah. 
So, so the point is like, and 

1125
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:46,640
that's where like I overly 
focused on Bitcoin in this essay

1126
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:49,480
rather than talk everything 
about crypto because like if 

1127
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:52,120
anyone is into crypto, like it 
starts with Bitcoin. 

1128
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:55,120
And really like the only way 
that I think makes Bitcoin 

1129
01:06:55,120 --> 01:07:00,080
unique is the way in which this 
incentive structure and and 

1130
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:04,720
technological constraints that 
are placed on miners like that 

1131
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:08,160
is the true innovation that 
makes Bitcoin worthwhile. 

1132
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:11,960
Again, I'm not saying that as a 
neutral third party, I'm saying 

1133
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:14,280
that like within the Bitcoin 
logic paradigm. 

1134
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:20,200
So what ends up happening is 
that like you said, like there's

1135
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:24,000
a lot of BCH supporters that 
like are too scared to part with

1136
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:26,560
BTC 'cause they want to hedge if
something goes. 

1137
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:29,000
Wrong. 
And so even though I think there

1138
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:32,760
was a lot of miners that did the
hash rate switching, which is 

1139
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:36,160
like not that hard in reality, I
mean, it's hard to get the. 

1140
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:40,000
Community consensus on that, but
it's to flip the switch. 

1141
01:07:40,000 --> 01:07:44,440
It's not crazy. 
So they did that and I think 

1142
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:46,840
what ended up happening was 
because the South Korean 

1143
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:51,960
exchange goes down with a server
crash and because they see the 

1144
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:54,960
activity on other exchanges 
where they can't move the price,

1145
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:57,680
I think basically after a few 
days. 

1146
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:02,120
They just, they literally like 
get scared and they they don't 

1147
01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:06,360
have the tenacity to keep this 
going because and it would be in

1148
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:12,080
their long term incentive to 
push and hold out to do this. 

1149
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:15,560
But they could not fight a war 
of attrition if they sell all 

1150
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:19,600
their BTC and they hold this BCH
and they can't move the prices 

1151
01:08:21,399 --> 01:08:23,040
because then they would they 
would be screwed. 

1152
01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:27,160
And ultimately, miners are 
caught in the incentives of not 

1153
01:08:27,160 --> 01:08:29,319
so much. 
The abstract notion of 

1154
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:32,399
everything internal Bitcoin. 
But they got our pay, short term

1155
01:08:32,399 --> 01:08:34,920
bills, electricity, rent, so 
forth so forth. 

1156
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:38,439
And they got a convert from 
Bitcoin or other Kryptos. 

1157
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:42,399
Into whatever home Fiat they 
need to pay those bills, that 

1158
01:08:42,399 --> 01:08:44,880
that's how miners operate. 
And once you realize that, you 

1159
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:48,000
realize miners which are held in
this lofty position. 

1160
01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:50,439
And if you read the white paper,
you read all the Bitcoin talk 

1161
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:52,840
form stuff. 
This is undeniable. 

1162
01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:55,760
But miners are supposed to play 
this very dominant role. 

1163
01:08:56,040 --> 01:08:59,760
They are actually super 
subordinate and passive to other

1164
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:03,160
players that can exert influence
and dominance in the industry. 

1165
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:07,279
And so basically what you said, 
Bennett, is very true that they 

1166
01:09:07,279 --> 01:09:09,439
were skittish. 
They did not want to part and 

1167
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:12,279
they didn't want to use the full
extent of their muscle to push 

1168
01:09:12,279 --> 01:09:15,439
things over the line. 
And I would say that that's 

1169
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:19,279
that's a contributing factor. 
But I but I still say the ways 

1170
01:09:19,279 --> 01:09:21,920
in which when you look at all 
these things together. 

1171
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:25,560
And again, I'll, I'll revert to 
just the obtuse version of over 

1172
01:09:25,560 --> 01:09:31,479
the year, like you, you still 
don't have the dominance of BTC 

1173
01:09:32,680 --> 01:09:35,479
and those people without Tether 
printing that money. 

1174
01:09:35,680 --> 01:09:38,359
And even though there's 
attestations and snapshots in 

1175
01:09:38,359 --> 01:09:43,160
time where we do see that there 
is backing some backing of of 

1176
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:48,080
tethers reserves, like I don't 
have to tell you guys, snapshots

1177
01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:53,120
are not indicative of the 
day-to-day reserve holdings of 

1178
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:56,240
these types of stable coins. 
And that's where I point to like

1179
01:09:56,240 --> 01:09:58,840
a academic paper like Griffin 
Shams and Bennett, we've talked 

1180
01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:00,320
about it. 
You may have some doubts about 

1181
01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:05,360
Griffin Shams paper, but as far 
as their argument goes, I think 

1182
01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:09,320
it makes sense that what 
ultimately Tether does is that 

1183
01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:12,680
like in the front of the month, 
they do all their printing, they

1184
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:16,400
send that out, that raises the 
crypto prices, raises all boats.

1185
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:19,520
And then once those inflated 
prices are there at the end of 

1186
01:10:19,520 --> 01:10:23,320
the month, they start to sell, 
get some actual Fiat back and 

1187
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:26,160
fill that gap of reserves they 
created for themselves. 

1188
01:10:26,320 --> 01:10:29,320
And they just keep doing this 
process over over again and in 

1189
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:31,120
the long term trajectory of 
this. 

1190
01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:36,000
They they keep increasing prices
at a rate where they can 

1191
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:41,160
proportionally backfill gaps in 
that reserve and at any one 

1192
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:44,520
point in time when they want to 
show a snapshot, there's a 

1193
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:46,320
mechanism where they can do 
that. 

1194
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:49,960
Yeah, yeah. 
And the the Griffin and Shams 

1195
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:54,040
paper is interesting in this 
discussion because one of the 

1196
01:10:54,040 --> 01:10:58,640
biggest reasons I'm skeptical of
its conclusion is because if you

1197
01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:02,400
take out the two most important 
months in terms of the flow, the

1198
01:11:02,400 --> 01:11:05,800
two largest, most aberrant 
months in terms of flows, the 

1199
01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:10,240
relationship goes from like 
large enough to obviously be 

1200
01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:13,600
able to backfill the reserves to
a much smaller relationship that

1201
01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:15,680
makes it a lot less clear they'd
be able to backfill the 

1202
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:17,560
reserves. 
And like the two months in 

1203
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:21,840
question are December 2017 and 
January 2018, which is funny in 

1204
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:26,280
this context that those would be
the two most aberrant months 

1205
01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:29,760
because those are pretty close 
on the calendar to the period we

1206
01:11:29,760 --> 01:11:34,160
were talking about. 
But like that broadly for the 

1207
01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:35,840
audience, that's one of my 
critiques of the Griffin and 

1208
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:39,640
Shams paper is that eliminating 
the two most extreme values 

1209
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:41,400
really weakens the relationship 
they. 

1210
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:45,480
And just to to really dig into 
basic stuff in case anyone 

1211
01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:47,280
watching doesn't understand 
this. 

1212
01:11:47,960 --> 01:11:50,120
The idea with accounting in 
general is that you should be 

1213
01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:54,720
able to account for the money 
throughout every day and every 

1214
01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:56,760
hour. 
Like you should be able to know 

1215
01:11:57,040 --> 01:12:00,520
how you got the money, where the
money went, who had the money 

1216
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:03,720
before and who you gave it to. 
Like these are basic accounting 

1217
01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:07,120
principles. 
And once you start to deviate 

1218
01:12:07,120 --> 01:12:09,280
from those accounting 
principles, like we're just 

1219
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:11,760
going to show you how much money
we have in a bank account once a

1220
01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:14,880
month, there's start to be 
problems with that, right? 

1221
01:12:14,880 --> 01:12:19,000
Because now you're, you're 
literally finding out by the 

1222
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:22,520
accountant, we're going to check
the account on March 1st or 

1223
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:25,040
whatever. 
And as long as you have the 

1224
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:28,120
right amount of money in that 
bank account on that day, I 

1225
01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:31,000
guess everything is fine. 
Well, you can do a lot of things

1226
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:34,560
to make sure there's enough 
money in that bank account to 

1227
01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:36,480
make it look like everything is 
fine. 

1228
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:40,240
If you're told when that is 
going to be checked and you have

1229
01:12:40,360 --> 01:12:43,280
some reasonable amount of heads 
up, you can get a loan, you can 

1230
01:12:43,280 --> 01:12:46,320
do like there's any number of 
things you can do to, to change 

1231
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:48,800
these numbers. 
And what we're talking about 

1232
01:12:48,800 --> 01:12:54,000
here is that, yeah, there 
there's issues with this study, 

1233
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:57,280
but like if you can't follow 
basic accounting principles, 

1234
01:12:57,520 --> 01:13:01,000
there's just a general problem, 
especially if your main goal is 

1235
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:03,920
to be a stable coin, right? 
If your main goal is to be like,

1236
01:13:03,920 --> 01:13:08,280
I can prove how many assets I 
have, where they're located, how

1237
01:13:08,600 --> 01:13:12,320
how much is in my possession 
specifically and how much I can 

1238
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:16,560
give out to customers, and you 
can only do that once a month. 

1239
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:18,240
Well, there's a big fucking 
problem. 

1240
01:13:18,480 --> 01:13:21,920
So I like these are these are 
issues that play a role in all 

1241
01:13:21,920 --> 01:13:25,040
of this because it means that 
the money is probably being 

1242
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:28,800
utilized for other things at 
other times and you have no idea

1243
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:32,600
what for. 
Well, I'll say this as well. 

1244
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:36,360
I don't think Griffin and Shams 
in their original writing of the

1245
01:13:36,360 --> 01:13:41,080
paper were saying so much as 
like we definitively prove. 

1246
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:46,560
That tethers were unbacked in 
the fashion that we write what 

1247
01:13:46,560 --> 01:13:50,720
they were, they were more so 
laying out was the hypothesis 

1248
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:53,840
like if they were doing it based
on the data we can grab like 

1249
01:13:53,840 --> 01:13:57,840
this is how it would go down. 
And so I think that with the 

1250
01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:04,040
Griffin Shams paper comes in as 
most useful is understanding the

1251
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:09,240
concept of how a stable coin 
like this would undergo, you 

1252
01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:13,560
know, this pump priming the pump
of the crypto coins, of how they

1253
01:14:13,560 --> 01:14:15,720
would do that, how they would 
print, how they would backfill 

1254
01:14:15,720 --> 01:14:17,800
reserves. 
And so you start to understand 

1255
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:19,840
that. 
And so where you get into more 

1256
01:14:19,840 --> 01:14:22,600
definitive evidence, this is 
where like we get to 2018 to 

1257
01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:27,920
2019 of these actual legal cases
where like tethers lawyers 

1258
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:31,800
admitting like, like, yes, in an
affidavit, like we had unbacked 

1259
01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:34,520
reserves. 
So again, that becomes a 

1260
01:14:34,520 --> 01:14:37,600
question of when in the timeline
did that occur? 

1261
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:40,120
How long did it occur? 
How are those funds distributed?

1262
01:14:40,360 --> 01:14:42,880
There's the, you know, someone 
could even, I'll use the devil's

1263
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:49,040
argument of, you know, yeah, but
like maybe Tether didn't have it

1264
01:14:49,040 --> 01:14:51,240
in their bank account, but they 
were utilizing bit the Nexus 

1265
01:14:51,240 --> 01:14:53,840
bank account and like 
technically, OK, that wasn't 

1266
01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:55,880
their reserves, but like they 
had access to money that they 

1267
01:14:55,880 --> 01:14:58,600
can move around. 
But you could, you know, there's

1268
01:14:58,600 --> 01:15:00,120
ways that you could then 
rebuttal that. 

1269
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:04,960
Yeah, the point of the matter is
like we have the concept through

1270
01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:06,840
Griffin and Shams of explaining 
how this could work. 

1271
01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:10,600
We have more so the legal cases 
and the settlement with the New 

1272
01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:13,920
York AG that that really like, 
you know, no one can say 

1273
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:15,200
otherwise. 
Like even though it was a 

1274
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:19,400
settlement and all this type of 
stuff, you know, that's kind of 

1275
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:22,520
an open shut case. 
Like they at that time through 

1276
01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:27,040
the 2017 to 2018, they had 
periods of time of having 

1277
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:29,920
unbacked reserves. 
This is from what the New York 

1278
01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:32,120
Jay found. 
This is also from what their 

1279
01:15:32,120 --> 01:15:34,640
lawyers said. 
One of the things also that's 

1280
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:37,760
very interesting that as just a 
community participant that I was

1281
01:15:38,240 --> 01:15:42,560
and going through the process of
just conversations and comms and

1282
01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:44,520
all this type of thing and 
research. 

1283
01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:49,480
One of the things that seemed 
like concerning, but like no 

1284
01:15:49,480 --> 01:15:53,040
one, no one kind of made it into
a bigger issue than it was, was 

1285
01:15:53,040 --> 01:15:55,320
people start questioning the 
redemption window of Tether. 

1286
01:15:55,760 --> 01:15:58,920
So if you had Tether tokens, 
there's the implicit 

1287
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:00,960
understanding I should be able 
to go to Tether and just like 

1288
01:16:00,960 --> 01:16:05,440
cash out one to one. 
But then it became an issue when

1289
01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:08,880
I believe it was that that 
community manager, Zane Tackett,

1290
01:16:08,880 --> 01:16:12,480
that was the like the mouthpiece
that was actually kind of doing 

1291
01:16:12,480 --> 01:16:14,400
them a disservice. 
People were. 

1292
01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:16,400
Communicating. 
Played a role Who played a role 

1293
01:16:16,400 --> 01:16:18,800
in FTXI? 
Just want to say this, this lad 

1294
01:16:18,800 --> 01:16:22,200
was involved in FTX when FTX 
went down as well. 

1295
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:25,480
And just one mouthpiece that 
Juan Carlo wishes would stop 

1296
01:16:25,480 --> 01:16:29,240
talking in whale pool chats. 
Yeah, I think everyone wishes he

1297
01:16:29,240 --> 01:16:30,880
would stop talking. 
So there you go. 

1298
01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:34,040
But the point that I'm trying to
say here is that for the first 

1299
01:16:34,040 --> 01:16:38,480
time, this mouthpiece of tether 
was like indicating like, well, 

1300
01:16:38,480 --> 01:16:41,440
you know, not everybody can 
redeem their tethers. 

1301
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:46,160
It was like, wait, what? 
Like that That was AI. 

1302
01:16:46,160 --> 01:16:50,400
Remember that being a 
reverberating vibe through like 

1303
01:16:50,440 --> 01:16:54,560
that era of. 
Some crypto participants like 

1304
01:16:54,560 --> 01:17:00,640
thinking like, how can you be 1 
to 1 and then like have a clique

1305
01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:03,560
of like whitelisted people you 
redeem for? 

1306
01:17:03,800 --> 01:17:06,840
But if I'm just, hey, maybe I'm 
not just an individual like 

1307
01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:09,040
schmuck. 
Maybe like I'm an institutional 

1308
01:17:09,040 --> 01:17:13,520
investor that has 2% of my my 
shit in Bitcoin and I'm using 

1309
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:16,360
stable coins to trade that, Hey,
I got a decent amount of 

1310
01:17:16,360 --> 01:17:19,240
holdings. 
Maybe I wasn't like, you know, 

1311
01:17:19,240 --> 01:17:22,080
at the latest Bitcoin 
conference, but I got enough 

1312
01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:24,440
money and I'm using this this 
stuff. 

1313
01:17:24,520 --> 01:17:26,800
I deserve to go to Tether and 
get this redeemed. 

1314
01:17:27,040 --> 01:17:29,640
That's what's on the tin of 
Tether. 

1315
01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:31,920
I should be able to redeem this 
one to one, but when? 

1316
01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:33,040
That starts to happen. 
You say. 

1317
01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:35,000
Oh no. 
No, no, no, we, we can't redeem 

1318
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:37,640
you. 
That is a huge red flag that 

1319
01:17:37,640 --> 01:17:40,800
indicates, well, if they're not 
redeeming anybody but they're 

1320
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:46,360
whitelisted clients, that means 
they likely can't sufficiently 

1321
01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:51,160
provide the withdrawals for the 
reserves they claim to have. 

1322
01:17:51,320 --> 01:17:54,200
So you have that. 
You have the not so much as like

1323
01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:57,680
you said, Bennett, it's not so 
much they are saying this is the

1324
01:17:57,680 --> 01:18:00,680
definitive evidence, but more so
using Griffin Champ to say this 

1325
01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:03,520
is a way of explaining a concept
of how this stuff could work. 

1326
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:06,920
And then you go to the New York 
AG and others to show like, OK, 

1327
01:18:06,920 --> 01:18:10,840
like really open shut case. 
There was unbacked stuff going 

1328
01:18:10,840 --> 01:18:14,000
on. 
You know, it's, it's pretty. 

1329
01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:16,400
I think when you combine all 
those things together, it's a 

1330
01:18:16,400 --> 01:18:21,880
pretty. 
Clear case that there was some 

1331
01:18:21,920 --> 01:18:26,400
version of this that was going 
on and again if we look at from 

1332
01:18:26,400 --> 01:18:30,000
an obtuse way so. 
The passive way that they did 

1333
01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:33,520
that regardless of whatever 
competitor came from Big blocks 

1334
01:18:33,520 --> 01:18:37,200
or even Vitalik with Ethereum or
any other coin, they had the 

1335
01:18:37,200 --> 01:18:41,640
passive incumbent privilege 
using this money printer that 

1336
01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:45,280
was directed mostly at their 
coin to keep them in incumbency.

1337
01:18:45,480 --> 01:18:50,400
So, so I, we're already at like 
130 into this and I know we 

1338
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:53,960
could probably go for like two 
or three more hours without an 

1339
01:18:53,960 --> 01:18:55,800
issue. 
And I mean that not 

1340
01:18:55,800 --> 01:19:00,760
hyperbolically, but I do I, I. 
So a question for you right here

1341
01:19:01,120 --> 01:19:05,760
is, you know, earlier we were 
talking about free market and we

1342
01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:09,120
were talking about like the, 
the, you didn't use this term, 

1343
01:19:09,120 --> 01:19:12,360
but like the bastardization of 
the free market that that this 

1344
01:19:12,360 --> 01:19:14,800
is not a free market, right? 
Like you're talking about all 

1345
01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:19,040
these, these actors who have 
their own agendas and are 

1346
01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:21,320
pushing the market in the way 
that they see fit. 

1347
01:19:21,440 --> 01:19:25,080
Whether it is the big blockers 
using using one exchange in 

1348
01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:28,840
South Korea and hoping that 
it'll suffice to push their 

1349
01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:32,760
agenda, or it's small blockers 
using Tether and Bitfinex to 

1350
01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:36,040
push their agenda and hoping 
that that that will suffice, 

1351
01:19:36,080 --> 01:19:38,160
right? 
Like you might have any number 

1352
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:40,040
of people using any number of 
agendas. 

1353
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:43,960
Isn't that kind of like, isn't 
that the free market? 

1354
01:19:44,160 --> 01:19:47,560
Like, isn't the argument here 
that that is in fact what the 

1355
01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:51,120
free market looks like? 
Is a bunch of Wild West scumbags

1356
01:19:51,280 --> 01:19:53,720
shooting each other in the chest
until one of them wins? 

1357
01:19:56,320 --> 01:19:58,440
You. 
Know in a way, like, yeah, like 

1358
01:19:58,440 --> 01:20:03,440
that's what the market is and it
really takes us going back. 

1359
01:20:04,240 --> 01:20:08,960
To our foundations of like what 
are our first principles of how 

1360
01:20:08,960 --> 01:20:11,720
we we come to understand these 
things and we come to advocate 

1361
01:20:11,720 --> 01:20:14,600
for these things. 
And so that's why you know, I 

1362
01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:17,800
made a big hub blue like when 
like everything kind of clicked 

1363
01:20:17,800 --> 01:20:20,480
for me. 
Like I literally had kind of 

1364
01:20:20,640 --> 01:20:24,480
identity crisis of being part of
this industry, of being a 

1365
01:20:24,480 --> 01:20:27,560
promoter of this industry in 
whatever, whatever way I was 

1366
01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:29,600
doing it, even though like I was
maybe. 

1367
01:20:30,440 --> 01:20:33,720
On the boat of being cryptic, 
critical of obvious scams and 

1368
01:20:33,720 --> 01:20:37,600
things like that, You know, I 
was still in foundation 

1369
01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:41,360
supportive of this idea. 
But once all these things 

1370
01:20:41,360 --> 01:20:43,560
clicked and I started 
understanding again these first 

1371
01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:46,200
principles and like, how does 
the market keep failing? 

1372
01:20:46,200 --> 01:20:48,640
And what is money? 
And how does money interact with

1373
01:20:48,640 --> 01:20:50,840
the state? 
Because ultimately it's all 

1374
01:20:50,840 --> 01:20:54,240
about the state. 
Bitcoin is a shadow of Fiat 

1375
01:20:54,240 --> 01:20:56,840
currency. 
Like everything about it is 

1376
01:20:57,080 --> 01:20:59,960
informed by how we look at how 
the state uses money. 

1377
01:21:00,480 --> 01:21:03,680
So like I, I basically wrote a 
little article where I said I'm 

1378
01:21:03,680 --> 01:21:06,920
leaving crypto and I had, you 
know, research clients and other

1379
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:09,760
sort of business clients that 
were crypto companies. 

1380
01:21:09,800 --> 01:21:12,040
I just had to like, you know, 
cut ties. 

1381
01:21:12,040 --> 01:21:15,320
I sold all my crypto for me. 
I just couldn't stomach 

1382
01:21:15,320 --> 01:21:17,280
everything that I knew then 
about it. 

1383
01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:19,760
Just advocating for this thing 
and profiting off it. 

1384
01:21:19,760 --> 01:21:23,680
That's just how my ethical stand
start to arise next. 

1385
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:29,240
I then get into like I need to 
really deal with my libertarian 

1386
01:21:29,240 --> 01:21:33,960
priors and read a bunch. 
And so I like, I did a master's 

1387
01:21:33,960 --> 01:21:37,360
program. 
I had the, again, sort of the 

1388
01:21:37,360 --> 01:21:41,120
time and space and capacity to 
just go and say like I'm going 

1389
01:21:41,120 --> 01:21:43,320
to do a master's program. 
I ended up going to Ireland to 

1390
01:21:43,320 --> 01:21:44,760
do it. 
I'd really good professors 

1391
01:21:44,760 --> 01:21:47,880
there. 
They exposed me to a lot wider 

1392
01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:53,040
scope of readings that were not 
Mises or, you know, Rothbard or 

1393
01:21:53,160 --> 01:21:56,920
any of these types. 
But but it what I valued the 

1394
01:21:56,920 --> 01:22:00,920
most was it wasn't something 
where I was picking a 

1395
01:22:00,920 --> 01:22:04,400
perspective and then, OK, well, 
that's my oppositional thing. 

1396
01:22:04,680 --> 01:22:06,840
I was really trying to read from
the ground up. 

1397
01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:09,360
It's like, well, like, how did 
we like? 

1398
01:22:09,520 --> 01:22:11,560
Get to the origination of 
central banks. 

1399
01:22:11,560 --> 01:22:13,680
How did we get to the 
origination of the stock market?

1400
01:22:13,680 --> 01:22:16,800
How did we get to the 
origination of, of money as a 

1401
01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:20,840
Fiat currency or what are these 
ideas where, how do we prove the

1402
01:22:20,840 --> 01:22:24,000
case that money was a commodity 
in the 1st place and not 

1403
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:25,680
something inherently linked to 
the state? 

1404
01:22:26,360 --> 01:22:29,120
And so these were all things 
that I was really trying to go 

1405
01:22:29,120 --> 01:22:32,760
all the way back to the source 
and read my way through up to 

1406
01:22:32,760 --> 01:22:35,160
the present. 
And that's where I've now come 

1407
01:22:35,160 --> 01:22:40,200
to the conclusion that how we 
think about money is, is in a 

1408
01:22:40,200 --> 01:22:44,360
much different way than the 
nominal Bitcoiner narrative. 

1409
01:22:44,960 --> 01:22:49,080
And that in actuality, like the 
state is really the only way 

1410
01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:54,360
that money can exist and the 
state's passive allowance of 

1411
01:22:54,360 --> 01:22:57,880
like a private currency. 
Is not so much like that means 

1412
01:22:57,880 --> 01:23:02,320
the private currency is thus 
more productive or efficient 

1413
01:23:02,320 --> 01:23:04,120
than the state. 
It's like the state is allowing 

1414
01:23:04,120 --> 01:23:08,000
it and thus the state allows it.
You know, it's in fact, it's 

1415
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:11,800
like a shadow Fiat currency. 
So this is where you can go to 

1416
01:23:11,800 --> 01:23:15,640
guys like old 19th century 
economists like George Knapp who

1417
01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:18,560
talks about Chartall ISM and 
this is like a a proto version 

1418
01:23:18,560 --> 01:23:21,880
of MMT modern monetary. 
Theory and and modern. 

1419
01:23:21,880 --> 01:23:25,800
Monetary is just like, that's 
just one lane of thinking about 

1420
01:23:25,800 --> 01:23:30,040
money in this way. 
But this is where I cite a lot 

1421
01:23:30,040 --> 01:23:34,960
of economists that can like get 
at this and one of the 

1422
01:23:34,960 --> 01:23:37,200
economists I like. 
Is David McWilliams, who's an 

1423
01:23:37,200 --> 01:23:41,480
Irish economist? 
I highly advise people to check 

1424
01:23:41,480 --> 01:23:43,840
out his book Money he came out 
with last year. 

1425
01:23:44,120 --> 01:23:46,280
He has a great chapter about 
crypto and Bitcoin. 

1426
01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:50,600
And he has a lot of great 
phrases where he's explaining 

1427
01:23:50,600 --> 01:23:54,080
this thing of like ultimately 
like private for state money has

1428
01:23:54,080 --> 01:23:56,440
always been the battle that's 
being waged for like hundreds of

1429
01:23:56,440 --> 01:24:00,560
years to some degree. 
And the issuance and control of 

1430
01:24:00,560 --> 01:24:04,520
money is like the the biggest 
weapon in the state's Armory. 

1431
01:24:04,880 --> 01:24:06,720
And why would the state give 
that up? 

1432
01:24:06,720 --> 01:24:10,680
So it's either the state. 
Using that, whether it's an 

1433
01:24:10,680 --> 01:24:14,160
authoritarian or more of like my
ideal version, the only way to 

1434
01:24:14,160 --> 01:24:16,800
deal with this and actually get 
some of the ideals, if you 

1435
01:24:16,800 --> 01:24:19,720
disconnect the means from the 
ends, the ideals of Bitcoin is a

1436
01:24:19,720 --> 01:24:23,960
more democratic utilization of 
the finance system. 

1437
01:24:24,560 --> 01:24:30,280
Of money and it is only possible
now my final conclusion to get 

1438
01:24:30,280 --> 01:24:33,080
those ideals we all thought 
about in like 2013 in Bitcoin. 

1439
01:24:33,720 --> 01:24:38,240
Through actually making the 
state more democratic of going 

1440
01:24:38,240 --> 01:24:41,320
directly through the state and 
using those institutions and 

1441
01:24:41,320 --> 01:24:44,160
tools to actually create that 
type of system. 

1442
01:24:44,440 --> 01:24:50,400
Otherwise, you only have like 
the oligarchic captured state, 

1443
01:24:50,400 --> 01:24:57,000
as I explained, that will use 
the state as a security force to

1444
01:24:57,000 --> 01:25:01,560
bolster its control of money at 
the exploitation of the 

1445
01:25:01,560 --> 01:25:05,640
populace. 
One of yeah. 

1446
01:25:05,640 --> 01:25:09,120
And this is a bit of a non 
sequitur, but I want to get to 

1447
01:25:09,120 --> 01:25:10,800
this before we start wrapping 
this up. 

1448
01:25:11,160 --> 01:25:12,920
One of the things that you 
talked about that was really 

1449
01:25:12,920 --> 01:25:16,880
interesting is the sense in 
which like stable coins and 

1450
01:25:16,880 --> 01:25:21,680
tethers specifically, is like a 
private money pegged to a public

1451
01:25:21,680 --> 01:25:27,200
money that has received in some 
sense a bit of a blessing from 

1452
01:25:28,160 --> 01:25:30,080
the government, from the United 
States and stuff like that. 

1453
01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:32,800
And there was one quote from 
your longer version of the 

1454
01:25:32,800 --> 01:25:35,080
article that I wanted to pull 
out here for the audience. 

1455
01:25:35,760 --> 01:25:38,400
The Dirty little secret of the 
US government stable coin 

1456
01:25:38,400 --> 01:25:41,720
strategy is that it vacuums up 
global dollar flows that would 

1457
01:25:41,720 --> 01:25:45,160
otherwise stay outside of the 
domestic borders of the US 

1458
01:25:45,360 --> 01:25:47,760
because they would never pass 
regulatory scrutiny. 

1459
01:25:48,120 --> 01:25:52,160
To whatever degree a poor third 
Worlder uses stable coins, as 

1460
01:25:52,160 --> 01:25:55,480
self-proclaimed humanitarian 
stablecoin advocates suggest to 

1461
01:25:55,480 --> 01:25:57,960
get the benefit of the stability
of a dollar financial 

1462
01:25:57,960 --> 01:26:01,960
infrastructure, they can only do
so because stablecoins don't 

1463
01:26:01,960 --> 01:26:04,560
provide the same level of 
regulatory scrutiny the 

1464
01:26:04,560 --> 01:26:07,080
traditional dollar financial 
infrastructure does. 

1465
01:26:07,360 --> 01:26:10,280
This humanitarian argument is an
admission of the regulatory 

1466
01:26:10,280 --> 01:26:13,800
evasion. 
So I wanted to kind of bring 

1467
01:26:13,800 --> 01:26:18,400
that up because I thought it was
one of the important points and 

1468
01:26:18,400 --> 01:26:22,120
one that like Cass and I have 
talked about a couple times on 

1469
01:26:22,120 --> 01:26:23,720
here, like I think we talked 
about this a little bit when 

1470
01:26:23,720 --> 01:26:28,080
Boaz was on here in that like 
these stable coins, the, they do

1471
01:26:28,080 --> 01:26:31,120
provide a valuable service to 
people who otherwise might not 

1472
01:26:31,120 --> 01:26:33,640
be able to access dollars. 
But then you have to open up the

1473
01:26:33,640 --> 01:26:38,080
question like what regulatory 
structures were preventing those

1474
01:26:38,080 --> 01:26:42,680
people from accessing dollars 
and why did those structures 

1475
01:26:42,680 --> 01:26:47,360
exist in the 1st place? 
And so I thought it was 

1476
01:26:47,840 --> 01:26:49,920
interesting how you walked 
through how like this 

1477
01:26:49,920 --> 01:26:55,720
infrastructure exists is kind of
a way to repatriate and almost 

1478
01:26:55,720 --> 01:26:59,400
kind of this isn't quite the 
right language, but kind of like

1479
01:26:59,760 --> 01:27:04,560
fencing or still get some of the
advantage of the untouchable 

1480
01:27:04,640 --> 01:27:08,720
global dollar floats. 
Do you have any thoughts you 

1481
01:27:08,720 --> 01:27:12,800
want to add to like the this 
shadow dollar infrastructure? 

1482
01:27:14,240 --> 01:27:19,840
So this is where Bitcoin and 
wider crypto has evolved to. 

1483
01:27:19,960 --> 01:27:23,320
So we we walk through this 
history, the original 

1484
01:27:23,320 --> 01:27:27,240
prototypical version of Bitcoin,
the scaling war versions of 

1485
01:27:27,240 --> 01:27:33,040
Bitcoin battling it out. 
The kind of in between Bitcoin 

1486
01:27:33,040 --> 01:27:38,080
getting through some bear market
territory like the rise of FTX 

1487
01:27:38,080 --> 01:27:41,400
and like kind of like 2021 
through 2023 and that kind of 

1488
01:27:41,800 --> 01:27:44,320
boom happening. 
And now the recent boom, which 

1489
01:27:44,320 --> 01:27:49,240
is very like government related 
and so like the final crescendo 

1490
01:27:49,840 --> 01:27:55,440
of Bitcoin and crypto is that it
is like a tool of the US 

1491
01:27:55,440 --> 01:27:57,880
government. 
And so that operates on 2 

1492
01:27:57,880 --> 01:28:00,160
levels. 
The 1st is exactly what you 

1493
01:28:00,160 --> 01:28:05,280
described from my essay is that 
there are all these dollar and 

1494
01:28:05,280 --> 01:28:09,120
dollar like instrument flows 
going on around the world that 

1495
01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:16,400
cannot access the traditional 
U.S. financial system because of

1496
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:19,240
like you know, they would not 
pass the mustard of screwed like

1497
01:28:19,520 --> 01:28:22,320
if they could, they would. 
So like it's it's self-evident 

1498
01:28:23,360 --> 01:28:29,800
and because it is too Arduin a 
fight to go in and face off 

1499
01:28:29,800 --> 01:28:32,280
against Elizabeth Warren or 
something to deregulate. 

1500
01:28:33,360 --> 01:28:35,920
The existing traditional 
financial sector. 

1501
01:28:37,160 --> 01:28:40,640
Why go through the fight when 
you can just make this parallel 

1502
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:42,800
system? 
And say, Oh no, no, no, no, 

1503
01:28:42,800 --> 01:28:45,120
we're going to keep all the 
regulations, but we have this 

1504
01:28:45,120 --> 01:28:47,640
parallel system where we don't 
have anything or we have very 

1505
01:28:47,640 --> 01:28:51,160
limited things that we're also 
not going to even enforce or 

1506
01:28:51,160 --> 01:28:55,760
like look into. 
And then in aggregate, that full

1507
01:28:55,760 --> 01:28:59,480
system is net deregulated. 
So like it's actually quite an 

1508
01:28:59,480 --> 01:29:02,720
ingenious way to get financial 
deregulation and pull the wool 

1509
01:29:02,720 --> 01:29:04,680
over 1's eyes. 
So then once you have a 

1510
01:29:04,680 --> 01:29:10,160
deregulation you can use as your
marketing tool, which I can 

1511
01:29:10,160 --> 01:29:13,440
picture a very specific 
individual that always talks up 

1512
01:29:13,440 --> 01:29:18,800
the humanitarianness of of 
stable coins and things like 

1513
01:29:18,800 --> 01:29:20,160
that. 
But it's like. 

1514
01:29:20,200 --> 01:29:26,760
It like it is an admission that 
like, OK, so why can't someone 

1515
01:29:26,920 --> 01:29:29,680
in a South American country 
that's, you know, facing 

1516
01:29:29,680 --> 01:29:35,560
hyperinflation and, and that 
already like utilizes have 

1517
01:29:35,560 --> 01:29:38,120
dollars for remittances per 
chance because of their family 

1518
01:29:38,120 --> 01:29:41,440
networks in the US or they want 
to save in dollars. 

1519
01:29:41,440 --> 01:29:44,280
And, and there's already like a 
shadow dollar system in a lot of

1520
01:29:44,280 --> 01:29:47,640
these countries. 
While that person might be the 

1521
01:29:47,640 --> 01:29:52,880
case, like why does that person 
not have access to the existing 

1522
01:29:53,120 --> 01:29:58,800
U.S. financial system? 
And however, like best case 

1523
01:29:58,800 --> 01:30:03,480
scenario, we can paint this type
of individual the the the 

1524
01:30:03,480 --> 01:30:07,880
argument still. 
Allows for because that 

1525
01:30:07,880 --> 01:30:10,760
individual cannot access that it
admits that it's like. 

1526
01:30:10,760 --> 01:30:13,320
It's because that person like 
can't offer the levels of 

1527
01:30:13,320 --> 01:30:18,000
identification or other. 
I'll be I'll be even more basic 

1528
01:30:18,000 --> 01:30:22,280
about this. 
Like you need to abide by US 

1529
01:30:22,560 --> 01:30:27,320
rules, laws and regulations to 
have those dollars in your hand,

1530
01:30:27,760 --> 01:30:30,480
right? 
Like if you're AUS citizen, you 

1531
01:30:30,480 --> 01:30:32,840
meet the you meet it, you'd like
you're good. 

1532
01:30:33,160 --> 01:30:36,800
But if you're if you're an 
Iranian citizen, you definitely 

1533
01:30:36,800 --> 01:30:39,160
don't. 
And it's not because maybe you 

1534
01:30:39,160 --> 01:30:41,520
want to. 
I'm not, I'm not suggesting your

1535
01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:46,200
intentions, but like your 
government, your state doesn't 

1536
01:30:46,400 --> 01:30:50,320
want anything to do with this. 
And the ability for the US to be

1537
01:30:50,320 --> 01:30:54,080
like, hey, fuck you, you can't 
do that. 

1538
01:30:54,720 --> 01:30:57,880
Like right. 
Like if you, if you just decide 

1539
01:30:57,880 --> 01:31:00,360
velocity is the only important 
thing. 

1540
01:31:00,600 --> 01:31:04,960
It just it it this this argument
drives me fucking crazy, Peter. 

1541
01:31:04,960 --> 01:31:07,600
Because. 
I don't think it was Iran's 

1542
01:31:07,600 --> 01:31:09,680
choice to cut Iran off from 
Swift. 

1543
01:31:10,120 --> 01:31:12,120
I don't. 
Think that's no, but but but but

1544
01:31:12,160 --> 01:31:15,560
I but the dollar even right, 
Like the idea that they would 

1545
01:31:15,560 --> 01:31:18,280
not use the rial or whatever. 
Like, I don't know what they 

1546
01:31:18,280 --> 01:31:22,200
use, but like the fact that they
wouldn't use that instead is 

1547
01:31:22,200 --> 01:31:28,240
like, of course, in a, a world 
where there is no sanctions or 

1548
01:31:28,480 --> 01:31:32,960
like, it's all so insane to me 
because a huge part of the 

1549
01:31:32,960 --> 01:31:36,720
dollar, like the importance of 
the dollar mechanism is your 

1550
01:31:36,720 --> 01:31:40,800
ability to stop people who you 
don't want to use it from using 

1551
01:31:40,800 --> 01:31:43,040
it. 
And if you go like, well, never 

1552
01:31:43,040 --> 01:31:44,960
mind. 
The most important thing is 

1553
01:31:44,960 --> 01:31:48,960
literally the velocity of money.
It's just how many transactions 

1554
01:31:48,960 --> 01:31:51,880
are happening all the time with 
the money that we have. 

1555
01:31:52,480 --> 01:31:58,040
You have defeated a large 
benefit of what it means or or 

1556
01:31:58,040 --> 01:32:01,320
detriment to what it means to be
a part of your currency. 

1557
01:32:01,320 --> 01:32:04,680
So like, if if you're a 
sanctioned country, it's a huge 

1558
01:32:04,680 --> 01:32:08,200
detriment to you that you cannot
access U.S. dollars anymore. 

1559
01:32:08,400 --> 01:32:11,720
It is a huge detriment to North 
Korea that they cannot access 

1560
01:32:11,840 --> 01:32:15,280
U.S. dollars. 
They have to invent new ways to 

1561
01:32:15,280 --> 01:32:19,520
counterfeit money to have access
to U.S. dollars. 

1562
01:32:19,640 --> 01:32:24,280
But it's but it's not even like 
those are very like unique, 

1563
01:32:24,360 --> 01:32:28,160
like, you know, adversaries of 
the US state interests. 

1564
01:32:29,320 --> 01:32:32,200
Type of examples, but like 
there's a lot of individuals 

1565
01:32:33,280 --> 01:32:38,080
nexuses of, of money that are 
just kind of like in a Gray area

1566
01:32:38,080 --> 01:32:42,760
where it's like they're not like
an an active adversary. 

1567
01:32:42,760 --> 01:32:46,480
They're just like they could be 
as simple as there's some guy in

1568
01:32:46,480 --> 01:32:50,920
London that's like just moving 
like dark money around and it's 

1569
01:32:50,920 --> 01:32:53,280
sort of it's it's not neither 
here or there, but he just he 

1570
01:32:53,280 --> 01:32:57,640
simply can't get access to the 
US system and has to like have 

1571
01:32:57,640 --> 01:33:01,120
all these rats holes. 
For the money now the US is 

1572
01:33:01,120 --> 01:33:07,320
going and saying, how do I get 
how like I, I, I know there's 

1573
01:33:07,320 --> 01:33:10,880
all this rat hole money out 
there that's in U.S. dollars or 

1574
01:33:11,000 --> 01:33:15,000
U.S. dollar like instruments or 
that that can like be exchanged 

1575
01:33:15,000 --> 01:33:17,280
for whatever other Fiat into 
U.S. dollar. 

1576
01:33:18,080 --> 01:33:22,160
I I want that rat nest money. 
So they are creating like a 

1577
01:33:22,160 --> 01:33:26,160
stablecoin infrastructure to 
basically absorb all of that. 

1578
01:33:26,680 --> 01:33:28,360
And it's like, why are they 
doing this? 

1579
01:33:28,360 --> 01:33:34,960
They're doing this because as we
run out the clock on how our 

1580
01:33:34,960 --> 01:33:40,200
debt is paid, how our debt is 
financed, and how the rest of 

1581
01:33:40,200 --> 01:33:43,320
the world is growing, it's my 
opinion. 

1582
01:33:43,400 --> 01:33:45,280
I believe in the multipolarity 
thesis. 

1583
01:33:45,440 --> 01:33:47,880
The rest of the world is growing
while the West and the 

1584
01:33:47,880 --> 01:33:49,280
traditional incumbents are 
declining. 

1585
01:33:49,600 --> 01:33:56,120
And this adversarial competition
is creating decoupling across 

1586
01:33:56,120 --> 01:33:59,280
many different layers of the 
international world. 

1587
01:33:59,280 --> 01:34:02,760
And so namely, the most 
important thing is that the US 

1588
01:34:02,760 --> 01:34:07,640
has relied a lot on foreigners 
to fund its deficit and its 

1589
01:34:07,640 --> 01:34:10,480
debt. 
And so as you can see uniquely 

1590
01:34:10,480 --> 01:34:13,840
with China, because China's the 
biggest adversary, China has 

1591
01:34:13,840 --> 01:34:16,960
said, look, we're done. 
They are constantly decreasing 

1592
01:34:16,960 --> 01:34:18,520
the amount of U.S. debt they 
hold. 

1593
01:34:18,880 --> 01:34:22,800
And so that is naturally going 
to start happening with a lot of

1594
01:34:22,800 --> 01:34:27,160
other countries, as they say, 
you know, rightly or wrongly, 

1595
01:34:27,160 --> 01:34:29,960
you just have to understand like
they are adversarial with the 

1596
01:34:30,040 --> 01:34:32,280
US, why are they going to fund 
their adversary? 

1597
01:34:32,680 --> 01:34:36,520
So that's happening. 
There's no way around that. 

1598
01:34:36,520 --> 01:34:38,160
So the US has to come up with a 
way. 

1599
01:34:38,400 --> 01:34:40,480
How do they? 
Fill that gap because they're 

1600
01:34:40,480 --> 01:34:42,280
not going to be able to fund 
their deficit. 

1601
01:34:42,680 --> 01:34:47,680
So stable coins have become this
very interesting conduit to 

1602
01:34:47,680 --> 01:34:52,000
offset the declines of state 
actors like China decreasing. 

1603
01:34:52,000 --> 01:34:53,880
That amount of money going 
towards the US. 

1604
01:34:54,640 --> 01:34:58,720
Treasury market and instead 
getting one as we talked about 

1605
01:34:58,800 --> 01:35:00,400
all of this dark. 
Pool. 

1606
01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:04,160
Money that's out there that can 
now be flowed into stable coins 

1607
01:35:04,440 --> 01:35:07,560
and those stable coins then and 
now with the Genius Act 

1608
01:35:07,560 --> 01:35:13,360
mandated, they have to buy U.S. 
Treasury bills 90 days or less. 

1609
01:35:13,760 --> 01:35:21,080
So this is becoming a huge part 
of how the US thinks about its 

1610
01:35:21,080 --> 01:35:23,600
debt. 
I trace it all the way back to 

1611
01:35:23,640 --> 01:35:29,280
we can look at guys like, you 
know, Mr. Nick Carter of Castle 

1612
01:35:29,280 --> 01:35:32,960
Island talking about this like 
in 2019-2020, the sort of 

1613
01:35:32,960 --> 01:35:36,560
initial conceptions and then we 
can see this, the Bitcoin Policy

1614
01:35:36,560 --> 01:35:38,840
Institute. 
This is all from within the 

1615
01:35:38,840 --> 01:35:43,480
Bitcoin like insider discussion.
You can even say safe Idina 

1616
01:35:43,480 --> 01:35:48,160
Moose was like critical in using
the way that he conceived of 

1617
01:35:48,160 --> 01:35:52,000
Bitcoin as a settlement layer 
instrument for central banks 

1618
01:35:52,000 --> 01:35:58,600
exclusively as a way of folding 
this into the absorption of like

1619
01:35:58,640 --> 01:36:01,800
AUS state interest. 
And so that's where we Fast 

1620
01:36:01,800 --> 01:36:03,800
forward. 
And the first real indication 

1621
01:36:03,800 --> 01:36:08,320
the state is thinking this way 
is that Paul Ryan comes out like

1622
01:36:08,520 --> 01:36:11,560
about over a year ago in a Wall 
Street Journal op-ed. 

1623
01:36:11,560 --> 01:36:13,560
He says all this. 
He says stable coins are 

1624
01:36:13,560 --> 01:36:18,480
supplying new demand for U.S. 
Treasuries as we see China and 

1625
01:36:18,480 --> 01:36:21,840
other countries declining in 
their appetite to buy our 

1626
01:36:21,840 --> 01:36:24,600
treasuries. 
So this is like GOP stalwart 

1627
01:36:24,600 --> 01:36:29,480
Paul Ryan, no relation saying 
the quiet part out loud, Hey, 

1628
01:36:29,480 --> 01:36:31,360
stable coins are a great way to 
do this. 

1629
01:36:31,560 --> 01:36:35,240
Let's keep this going. 
And then all of a sudden what? 

1630
01:36:35,400 --> 01:36:37,720
And this, this is one of the 
most like interesting inflection

1631
01:36:37,720 --> 01:36:41,360
points for me is that not, not 
saying Donald Trump is, is like 

1632
01:36:41,360 --> 01:36:45,080
good for doing this, but I'm 
saying his position always was 

1633
01:36:45,080 --> 01:36:48,120
that crypto is bad for the US 
dollar. 

1634
01:36:48,280 --> 01:36:51,280
And that was his position from 
2015 to like 2024. 

1635
01:36:51,560 --> 01:36:54,480
And so he he was saying this 
constantly, even though within 

1636
01:36:54,480 --> 01:36:57,520
the first term you could say 
like his underlings were doing 

1637
01:36:57,520 --> 01:37:00,000
things to aid in the bed, the 
crypto markets. 

1638
01:37:00,360 --> 01:37:04,240
But then like in 2024, like he 
starts this like complete 180 

1639
01:37:04,240 --> 01:37:06,600
pivot where he's all in on the 
crypto. 

1640
01:37:06,920 --> 01:37:12,320
Maybe you could say that's just 
him doing a very trivial, you 

1641
01:37:12,320 --> 01:37:15,600
know, lobby, like the crypto 
people lobbied him, they gave 

1642
01:37:15,600 --> 01:37:16,880
him money. 
He said, fine, I don't care. 

1643
01:37:16,880 --> 01:37:18,280
I don't have real authentic 
positions. 

1644
01:37:18,480 --> 01:37:20,400
I'll now take this position 
because who cares? 

1645
01:37:20,920 --> 01:37:25,200
But the reality is, I think not 
so much him, but the collection 

1646
01:37:25,200 --> 01:37:28,880
of people around him basically 
won this argument that Paul Ryan

1647
01:37:28,880 --> 01:37:32,760
made that stable coins are 
needed to fix this problem of 

1648
01:37:32,760 --> 01:37:36,480
people, not of us not being able
to fund the US debt. 

1649
01:37:36,920 --> 01:37:39,480
And so now you see this. 
Huge. 

1650
01:37:39,480 --> 01:37:43,880
Groundswell of Republican 
argumentation for this. 

1651
01:37:43,880 --> 01:37:46,320
And so now we have the Treasury 
Secretary, Scott Descent. 

1652
01:37:46,560 --> 01:37:49,440
All this guy can say now is that
stable coins are going to bail 

1653
01:37:49,440 --> 01:37:52,160
out the US debt. 
We're thinking stable coins as a

1654
01:37:52,160 --> 01:37:54,760
total supply. 
Are going to go to like 3 

1655
01:37:54,760 --> 01:37:56,880
trillion by 2028. 
I believe. 

1656
01:37:56,880 --> 01:38:00,080
That's a citation he's using 
from like a Citibank report that

1657
01:38:00,080 --> 01:38:03,120
made that claim. 
I looked at all like kind of 

1658
01:38:03,120 --> 01:38:05,280
different researchers. 
Financial institutions, I've 

1659
01:38:05,280 --> 01:38:07,800
made my own bottom up, top down 
analysis. 

1660
01:38:08,160 --> 01:38:10,960
I think on like a like if the 
government keeps supporting this

1661
01:38:10,960 --> 01:38:15,920
as it's doing like 3 trillion to
5 trillion by 2030, like that's 

1662
01:38:15,920 --> 01:38:18,680
not crazy. 
And when you think about that, 

1663
01:38:19,080 --> 01:38:23,960
that is like it's not that we 
have to replace 37 billion of US

1664
01:38:24,160 --> 01:38:27,280
trillion, I mean of U.S. debt 
overnight with stable coin 

1665
01:38:27,280 --> 01:38:30,040
supply. 
What we have to do is the delta 

1666
01:38:30,040 --> 01:38:33,840
that we lose each month. 
We have to turn that over into 

1667
01:38:34,160 --> 01:38:36,880
stable coin demand. 
So that's a much more doable 

1668
01:38:36,880 --> 01:38:38,480
strategy. 
And when you think about that 

1669
01:38:38,480 --> 01:38:42,080
trajectory from now to like 
trillions and stable coin value 

1670
01:38:42,880 --> 01:38:46,440
that that is doable based on the
run rate that all these guys are

1671
01:38:46,440 --> 01:38:50,720
talking about South one, the 
dark pools and pushing that in 

1672
01:38:51,120 --> 01:38:55,200
to treasury demand is the reason
the US is so supportive of this.

1673
01:38:56,600 --> 01:39:00,320
And, but I would say #2 and this
is where I get into my more 

1674
01:39:00,920 --> 01:39:04,880
speculative territory of of 
forecasting is that I think 

1675
01:39:04,880 --> 01:39:08,680
there is a real parallel. 
To what we saw. 

1676
01:39:08,720 --> 01:39:13,280
In the scaling war and where I 
argue the printing of unbacked 

1677
01:39:13,280 --> 01:39:20,160
tether tokens was a was a real 
thing that actively or passively

1678
01:39:20,160 --> 01:39:22,360
helped the parties involved with
that. 

1679
01:39:22,720 --> 01:39:28,040
And that that mechanism can 
still be used in the current 

1680
01:39:28,120 --> 01:39:31,200
more government infused system 
that's being done. 

1681
01:39:31,360 --> 01:39:35,160
And now you have a system where,
as I described, one, it's a 

1682
01:39:35,160 --> 01:39:38,280
shadow central bank that can 
shadow money print. 

1683
01:39:38,360 --> 01:39:41,320
And then number two and three, 
number two, it can shadow 

1684
01:39:41,320 --> 01:39:43,400
monetize the US debt, which is 
doing. 

1685
01:39:43,920 --> 01:39:47,080
And then #3 it can shadow 
quantitative ease. 

1686
01:39:47,240 --> 01:39:50,000
And so this is where like the 
third leg of the stool comes in 

1687
01:39:50,240 --> 01:39:56,400
where if they can push that 
shadow printed money into the 

1688
01:39:56,400 --> 01:40:00,080
equity markets, well now you 
just create a really perverse 

1689
01:40:00,080 --> 01:40:02,520
incentive for all the corporate 
incumbents. 

1690
01:40:03,080 --> 01:40:07,920
To back this strategy, because 
hey, we might be facing a 

1691
01:40:07,920 --> 01:40:12,920
situation where PE values in the
US are so high that everyone's 

1692
01:40:12,920 --> 01:40:14,040
saying there has to be a 
correction. 

1693
01:40:14,040 --> 01:40:16,200
Everyone's saying the AI bubbles
going to correct. 

1694
01:40:16,400 --> 01:40:18,560
Everyone's saying a lot of these
tech stocks are overvalued. 

1695
01:40:18,920 --> 01:40:22,400
All this stuff is pointing to 
the degree to which let alone 

1696
01:40:22,400 --> 01:40:25,000
the trade, the trade wars, and 
how that has a depressive effect

1697
01:40:25,000 --> 01:40:27,320
on the market. 
There are so many indicators 

1698
01:40:27,320 --> 01:40:29,400
that the US has to go through a 
correction. 

1699
01:40:29,760 --> 01:40:33,520
And why would these corporate 
incumbents want to deal with 

1700
01:40:33,520 --> 01:40:36,160
that when they can get in bed 
with what the government is 

1701
01:40:36,160 --> 01:40:39,400
doing, taking advantage of the 
shadow money printing and get 

1702
01:40:39,400 --> 01:40:42,840
access to that, to shadow quant 
AVS to fuel and prop up the 

1703
01:40:42,840 --> 01:40:44,400
market. 
And that's where we can see 

1704
01:40:44,520 --> 01:40:47,480
what's Tether doing today. 
They're investing in everything 

1705
01:40:47,480 --> 01:40:49,640
under the sun from AI to 
biotech. 

1706
01:40:49,800 --> 01:40:53,440
They're an investor in Rumble. 
What does a video YouTube clone 

1707
01:40:53,680 --> 01:40:55,480
app that actually doesn't work 
really good. 

1708
01:40:55,640 --> 01:40:57,600
What does it have to do with the
stable coin? 

1709
01:40:57,800 --> 01:40:59,640
No one will know the president's
son. 

1710
01:41:00,400 --> 01:41:01,920
The president's son is the link 
there. 

1711
01:41:02,360 --> 01:41:06,440
But this is, it goes into this 
thing where it's it's this Nexus

1712
01:41:06,440 --> 01:41:11,320
of interested parties coming 
together that are creating these

1713
01:41:11,360 --> 01:41:14,200
these very strong ties. 
Short term incentives, short 

1714
01:41:14,200 --> 01:41:18,680
term gains over long term 
reality, right? 

1715
01:41:18,760 --> 01:41:23,280
Like ignore long term reality, 
focus on short term gains, focus

1716
01:41:23,280 --> 01:41:30,000
on short term whatever. 
And hopefully you can scrap 

1717
01:41:30,000 --> 01:41:31,920
scrounge and figure your way out
of it. 

1718
01:41:31,920 --> 01:41:40,160
And I like, I do, I think that 
this is a conceit of capitalism.

1719
01:41:40,440 --> 01:41:43,640
I'd like this is not a just a 
crypto thing. 

1720
01:41:43,640 --> 01:41:47,640
This is not just a like this is 
a conceit where it's like, yeah,

1721
01:41:47,800 --> 01:41:51,920
well, that's always going to be 
the case is that you are going 

1722
01:41:51,920 --> 01:41:56,160
to put short term goals and 
gains over the long term, 

1723
01:41:56,400 --> 01:42:00,520
whatever you might imagine, cuz 
you don't know what long term 

1724
01:42:00,520 --> 01:42:02,760
actually means. 
None of us do. 

1725
01:42:03,120 --> 01:42:07,200
And short term, like you have a 
pretty confident concept of what

1726
01:42:07,200 --> 01:42:11,640
that will look like, right? 
And if you can gain that in any 

1727
01:42:11,640 --> 01:42:15,840
way that you can get away with, 
it doesn't matter ultimately. 

1728
01:42:15,840 --> 01:42:21,200
And I think like this is a 
perfect symptom of everything 

1729
01:42:21,200 --> 01:42:28,160
wrong with the stock market, 
cryptocurrency, like every, 

1730
01:42:28,320 --> 01:42:32,480
every coin like this is this is 
the tether is this. 

1731
01:42:32,760 --> 01:42:35,240
But like it's so far beyond 
tether. 

1732
01:42:35,240 --> 01:42:40,480
It's it is the Bitcoin forks. 
It is the it's, it's the fact 

1733
01:42:40,480 --> 01:42:43,160
that micro strategy does what it
does. 

1734
01:42:43,160 --> 01:42:50,200
Like all of this is a symptom of
something far broader and sicker

1735
01:42:50,200 --> 01:42:53,960
in this system. 
And I think I'd like, I think 

1736
01:42:53,960 --> 01:42:57,200
we're already there, Peter. 
Yeah. 

1737
01:42:57,200 --> 01:43:01,920
We, I, we have kind of crossed 
the Rubicon not entering this 

1738
01:43:01,920 --> 01:43:05,000
like shadow central bank system 
whether we like it or not. 

1739
01:43:05,480 --> 01:43:09,640
And we have to deal with this 
fact that like, and maybe it's 

1740
01:43:09,640 --> 01:43:12,120
not like to, and I mention this 
because the market share of 

1741
01:43:12,120 --> 01:43:13,720
Tether and stablecoins has gone 
down. 

1742
01:43:13,720 --> 01:43:16,440
Over the years, it doesn't 
necessarily have to be just 

1743
01:43:16,440 --> 01:43:20,320
Tether because Trump has World 
Liberty Financial now and 

1744
01:43:20,320 --> 01:43:21,760
there's other stablecoins out 
there. 

1745
01:43:22,160 --> 01:43:24,720
And we can even look at. 
It kind of like as a quasi like 

1746
01:43:25,160 --> 01:43:28,200
stablecoin reserve system, like 
the Federal Reserve System. 

1747
01:43:28,200 --> 01:43:32,880
There's 12 banks in theory and 
it's like there could just be 

1748
01:43:32,880 --> 01:43:37,320
like a collection of 12 stable 
coins that all operate in unison

1749
01:43:37,840 --> 01:43:43,840
and they all have the same modus
operandi to, you know, print 

1750
01:43:44,240 --> 01:43:48,200
synthetic dollars that go 
towards paying for the US debt, 

1751
01:43:48,200 --> 01:43:51,680
that go towards keeping up 
corporate incumbents in the 

1752
01:43:51,680 --> 01:43:53,320
equity markets and the bond 
markets. 

1753
01:43:54,640 --> 01:43:58,400
And this is all. 
You know, doable because no one 

1754
01:43:58,400 --> 01:44:01,080
has the wherewithal to kind of 
look under the surface a little 

1755
01:44:01,080 --> 01:44:04,040
bit deeper and they're just fine
with considering all these 

1756
01:44:04,040 --> 01:44:06,560
things that, oh, this is 
innovation, this is, you know, 

1757
01:44:06,560 --> 01:44:08,800
high tech. 
This is and and that's the 

1758
01:44:08,800 --> 01:44:12,520
problem where all of our 
financial press is like either 

1759
01:44:12,520 --> 01:44:15,120
talking about this as innovation
and never goes. 

1760
01:44:15,120 --> 01:44:17,960
Farther than that. 
And they humor it that way, or 

1761
01:44:17,960 --> 01:44:20,840
they're skeptical people. 
And Nassim Taleb is a smart guy 

1762
01:44:20,880 --> 01:44:24,280
and and. 
Or I won't get into that, but 

1763
01:44:24,640 --> 01:44:25,920
let's just assume he's a smart 
guy. 

1764
01:44:26,760 --> 01:44:32,200
You know, he's a big crypt 
critic of crypto and all he can 

1765
01:44:32,200 --> 01:44:34,800
say about it is like, hey, I I 
don't really look into it. 

1766
01:44:34,800 --> 01:44:37,320
It's like gambling, you know you
can make money, I don't care. 

1767
01:44:37,840 --> 01:44:40,400
But it's like, this is a guy 
with brain power and he has not 

1768
01:44:40,400 --> 01:44:43,760
delved into these layers that 
we've gone to where we're 

1769
01:44:43,760 --> 01:44:47,920
reaching the core of earth of 
like of Bitcoin nuances. 

1770
01:44:49,080 --> 01:44:54,320
And so this shadow bank central 
bank system is just like here 

1771
01:44:54,320 --> 01:44:57,240
now and no one's really 
inspecting it deeper. 

1772
01:44:57,600 --> 01:45:00,960
And that's where like guys like 
who I mentioned in my paper, 

1773
01:45:01,200 --> 01:45:06,680
Marco Della Elba, he's actually 
the one that coined the term 

1774
01:45:06,680 --> 01:45:10,440
shadow central bank. 
He doesn't connect so many dots 

1775
01:45:10,440 --> 01:45:12,280
that I do. 
I believe his first paper 

1776
01:45:12,280 --> 01:45:16,440
coining it was in 2019. 
And so he's, he just basically 

1777
01:45:16,440 --> 01:45:18,400
brings up the fact like, OK, 
there's like all these 

1778
01:45:18,400 --> 01:45:21,880
properties emerging with stable 
coins have that are like very 

1779
01:45:21,880 --> 01:45:24,280
emulative of a central bank. 
And this creates a problem for 

1780
01:45:24,280 --> 01:45:27,520
central banks in transmitting 
their policy because then it 

1781
01:45:27,520 --> 01:45:30,640
could not work. 
But then we Fast forward to 

1782
01:45:30,640 --> 01:45:33,280
actually this year, the Bank of 
International Settlements came 

1783
01:45:33,280 --> 01:45:37,840
out with a working paper that 
was actually very impactful. 

1784
01:45:37,840 --> 01:45:42,160
And it ended up in their annual 
BIS report where they talked 

1785
01:45:42,160 --> 01:45:45,720
about the way in which they 
don't call this out of central 

1786
01:45:45,720 --> 01:45:48,480
bank, but they say, hey, we just
like measured. 

1787
01:45:48,480 --> 01:45:54,280
And turns out the inflows of 
stable coins impacts Treasury 

1788
01:45:54,280 --> 01:45:55,760
yields. 
And so there's a direct 

1789
01:45:55,760 --> 01:45:57,840
relationship here. 
And there's a huge problem that 

1790
01:45:57,840 --> 01:46:01,160
as stable coins grow, they're 
going to suppress the way 

1791
01:46:01,160 --> 01:46:03,800
central banks can actually 
communicate their monetary 

1792
01:46:03,800 --> 01:46:05,680
policy. 
And so they can do whatever they

1793
01:46:05,680 --> 01:46:06,920
want. 
Jerome Powell can do whatever he

1794
01:46:06,920 --> 01:46:08,760
want. 
But ultimately, if stable coins 

1795
01:46:08,760 --> 01:46:12,200
get big enough, whatever they're
doing and the flows that they 

1796
01:46:12,200 --> 01:46:16,400
have is actually going to be 
more influential on shaping our 

1797
01:46:16,400 --> 01:46:18,480
monetary policy. 
So this is. 

1798
01:46:18,560 --> 01:46:20,240
So this is. 
Where it's like we're now. 

1799
01:46:20,800 --> 01:46:25,320
You know, 2019 when shadow 
central bank is first coined to 

1800
01:46:25,320 --> 01:46:28,240
Fast forward to this year when 
the BIS is basically saying it 

1801
01:46:28,400 --> 01:46:30,360
out loud. 
And they've actually taken a 

1802
01:46:30,360 --> 01:46:34,400
very like sharper disagreement 
with the American way of looking

1803
01:46:34,400 --> 01:46:36,400
at this. 
They're definitely looking at 

1804
01:46:36,400 --> 01:46:38,520
more of the central bank digital
currency approach for the 

1805
01:46:38,520 --> 01:46:41,120
European context. 
And they're very critical of 

1806
01:46:41,120 --> 01:46:43,760
stable coins, but they're saying
it out loud. 

1807
01:46:43,920 --> 01:46:47,840
And so we're in the position in 
America where, you know, this 

1808
01:46:47,840 --> 01:46:52,040
thing is, you know, slightly 
less equal to equal or, you 

1809
01:46:52,040 --> 01:46:54,440
know, depending on how things 
roll out, going to be more 

1810
01:46:54,880 --> 01:46:59,680
powerful to Jerome Powell's 
Federal Reserve and. 

1811
01:47:00,120 --> 01:47:01,920
You know, does anybody want to 
talk about that? 

1812
01:47:01,920 --> 01:47:05,160
I think I'm the one that's kind 
of vocalizing that aside from 

1813
01:47:05,160 --> 01:47:08,240
the more academic people that 
are measuring this in a very, 

1814
01:47:09,680 --> 01:47:13,160
you know, minutiae way. 
So yeah, so that's where we're 

1815
01:47:13,160 --> 01:47:14,440
at. 
And that's like, as you say, 

1816
01:47:14,440 --> 01:47:18,120
Cass, kind of an interesting 
feature of the the history of 

1817
01:47:18,120 --> 01:47:21,880
capitalism where. 
We've now arrived at this point 

1818
01:47:21,960 --> 01:47:24,120
and is it so much a feature of 
crypto? 

1819
01:47:24,400 --> 01:47:28,760
It is much as a feature of the 
natural evolution of allowing 

1820
01:47:28,760 --> 01:47:35,360
unchecked oligarchy privilege to
conglomerate in this new 

1821
01:47:35,360 --> 01:47:37,160
implementation of a shadow 
central bank. 

1822
01:47:40,920 --> 01:47:44,240
So, like, the reason we would 
want additional demand for 

1823
01:47:44,240 --> 01:47:50,440
Treasuries is to like avoid 
having to raise rates or inflate

1824
01:47:50,440 --> 01:47:52,800
and then raise rates to continue
paying them. 

1825
01:47:53,160 --> 01:47:56,880
But like, if this is like just a
shadow deregulation, when did it

1826
01:47:56,880 --> 01:48:00,520
make more sense to do like 
change the bank regulations? 

1827
01:48:00,520 --> 01:48:04,240
Because if you can get, say, 25%
of stable coin demand into 

1828
01:48:04,240 --> 01:48:07,880
banks, isn't that going to have 
like a larger net effect on your

1829
01:48:07,880 --> 01:48:12,160
economy and downstream, like, 
your ability to manage your debt

1830
01:48:12,240 --> 01:48:15,080
than like, allowing this 
backdoor deregulation? 

1831
01:48:15,840 --> 01:48:17,680
Not to be glib, but if they 
could, they would. 

1832
01:48:19,160 --> 01:48:22,040
So that's where it's just like, 
yeah, like, makes sense. 

1833
01:48:23,040 --> 01:48:25,240
Try to get that through 
Elizabeth Warren or you know, 

1834
01:48:26,160 --> 01:48:29,560
just like, not even her as an 
avatar, but just like trying. 

1835
01:48:29,800 --> 01:48:32,800
To you're able to, you're able 
to push back against the the 

1836
01:48:32,800 --> 01:48:36,600
real deregulation a lot easier 
than well, we have no control 

1837
01:48:36,600 --> 01:48:39,560
over that Bennett, right. 
And even though like people are 

1838
01:48:39,560 --> 01:48:43,840
saying like whatever way in 
which the government today is 

1839
01:48:43,840 --> 01:48:46,960
overstepping. 
What the letter of the law says 

1840
01:48:46,960 --> 01:48:49,640
or the Constitution says. 
And you could say, well, if they

1841
01:48:49,640 --> 01:48:50,840
can do that, they can do 
anything. 

1842
01:48:51,040 --> 01:48:54,560
Like there's still ways in which
they have to contend with the 

1843
01:48:54,560 --> 01:48:57,520
institutional hurdles that are 
in place. 

1844
01:48:57,520 --> 01:49:00,000
So like, it's not even like an 
individual politician. 

1845
01:49:00,000 --> 01:49:03,360
Like, it could be just like a 
random judge out there that like

1846
01:49:03,360 --> 01:49:05,640
stops, you know, a deportation 
order. 

1847
01:49:05,640 --> 01:49:09,800
It could be, you know, an 
institution of civil servants 

1848
01:49:09,800 --> 01:49:13,320
that like just do not process 
and do not operate as per the 

1849
01:49:13,320 --> 01:49:14,840
top of the government says they 
should. 

1850
01:49:15,360 --> 01:49:22,000
So these are problems that 
however, you know, Looney Tunes,

1851
01:49:22,040 --> 01:49:25,040
an elected government official 
at the top of the pyramid could 

1852
01:49:25,040 --> 01:49:27,280
do. 
Like there's still all this 

1853
01:49:27,280 --> 01:49:30,600
inertia from other elected 
politicians to institutions to 

1854
01:49:30,720 --> 01:49:33,960
lower level civil servants. 
That's just like, why would we 

1855
01:49:33,960 --> 01:49:38,560
go through the slog of that when
we can just do this on the side?

1856
01:49:38,600 --> 01:49:40,120
And it's like, we're already 
there. 

1857
01:49:40,200 --> 01:49:44,440
Like I said, the BIS paper came 
out and it's already suppressing

1858
01:49:44,440 --> 01:49:46,920
yields. 
With its inflows, it's already 

1859
01:49:46,920 --> 01:49:48,720
having effect. 
They're already warning about 

1860
01:49:48,720 --> 01:49:51,960
all these ways in which it could
also destabilize the entire 

1861
01:49:52,080 --> 01:49:54,320
financial system because if 
there's a bank front on the 

1862
01:49:54,320 --> 01:49:57,320
stable coins, they don't have 
the reserves, things go haywire.

1863
01:49:57,920 --> 01:50:01,320
I could, I mean, I could talk 
about too like there's like just

1864
01:50:01,320 --> 01:50:03,440
as a theoretical, like there's a
bug that. 

1865
01:50:03,440 --> 01:50:05,720
Freezes all transactions on one 
of these blockchains. 

1866
01:50:06,000 --> 01:50:07,840
You know tethers making so 
native blockchain. 

1867
01:50:08,120 --> 01:50:11,000
If that like has a bug in it and
all that stops, like what 

1868
01:50:11,000 --> 01:50:14,480
happens to the value of Tether 
or other stable coins? 

1869
01:50:14,600 --> 01:50:17,440
And then how does that 
diminishment of value on stable 

1870
01:50:17,440 --> 01:50:20,800
coins affect all the ways in 
which stable coins are now 

1871
01:50:20,800 --> 01:50:25,200
infused into the wider private 
financial sector? 

1872
01:50:25,360 --> 01:50:29,920
A lot of like Bitcoin and other 
things like that are being used 

1873
01:50:29,920 --> 01:50:32,640
as collateral for loans. 
And so stable coins get 

1874
01:50:32,640 --> 01:50:35,960
diminished. 
Naturally, there's going to be a

1875
01:50:35,960 --> 01:50:38,920
wider fire sell across crypto 
and Bitcoin's going to diminish.

1876
01:50:39,240 --> 01:50:41,640
And so if Bitcoin diminishes on 
the on that collateral for 

1877
01:50:41,640 --> 01:50:44,360
loans, guess what, you're going 
to get margin calls and when. 

1878
01:50:44,360 --> 01:50:45,480
That starts happening. 
It's. 

1879
01:50:45,800 --> 01:50:49,040
Cascading and to be clear, like 
this has happened before, right.

1880
01:50:49,400 --> 01:50:53,800
We've seen the devaluation, the 
de pegging of Tether and other 

1881
01:50:53,800 --> 01:50:58,720
cryptocurrent like stable coins 
and we have seen there like 

1882
01:50:58,760 --> 01:51:01,360
there is a cascading effect to 
this type of thing. 

1883
01:51:01,360 --> 01:51:05,360
We haven't necessarily seen it 
in Treasuries, but the idea that

1884
01:51:05,360 --> 01:51:09,240
we could like that does not. 
I'm not surprised by that at 

1885
01:51:09,240 --> 01:51:11,040
all. 
That doesn't, that doesn't even 

1886
01:51:11,040 --> 01:51:13,840
make me blink. 
I think that is very real, just.

1887
01:51:13,840 --> 01:51:16,840
Just add to one bullet point of 
that something that was an 

1888
01:51:16,840 --> 01:51:20,280
epiphany for me of like doing 
the some of the deep just 

1889
01:51:20,560 --> 01:51:23,040
research of doing this in real 
time in the 20 tens. 

1890
01:51:23,880 --> 01:51:26,800
Is that like everyone's saying 
during the hyperinflation period

1891
01:51:26,800 --> 01:51:30,400
of Venezuela that like crypto 
became such of a big thing for 

1892
01:51:30,400 --> 01:51:32,680
them? 
And when I started to like, 

1893
01:51:32,680 --> 01:51:36,920
really look into that, it's like
the narrative is that all these 

1894
01:51:36,920 --> 01:51:38,680
Venezuelans are like, oh, 
bitcoins, great. 

1895
01:51:38,680 --> 01:51:40,880
Everything, Bitcoin, Bitcoin, 
Bitcoin, I'm using Bitcoin. 

1896
01:51:41,400 --> 01:51:46,640
But in reality, all they were 
doing was using Bitcoin as a 

1897
01:51:47,280 --> 01:51:51,840
middle layer to get out of 
Venezuelan Fiat currency into 

1898
01:51:51,840 --> 01:51:53,160
U.S. dollar Fiat currency. 
That's right. 

1899
01:51:53,280 --> 01:51:55,240
So none of them were actually 
funny enough. 

1900
01:51:55,240 --> 01:51:57,560
They weren't. 
Holding it as a store of value. 

1901
01:51:57,560 --> 01:52:02,560
A lot of they were a lot of 
crypto, a lot of crypto 5O1C, 

1902
01:52:02,560 --> 01:52:05,960
threes and otherwise we're 
talking about helping 

1903
01:52:05,960 --> 01:52:09,200
Venezuelans. 
And I noticed that stopped and 

1904
01:52:09,200 --> 01:52:12,720
it's exactly because of what 
you're talking about where they 

1905
01:52:12,720 --> 01:52:16,080
weren't using crypto to hold 
value, they were using crypto to

1906
01:52:16,160 --> 01:52:19,280
acquire dollars. 
And that is a big, big 

1907
01:52:19,280 --> 01:52:22,240
difference actually. 
And this is this is where when 

1908
01:52:22,240 --> 01:52:26,760
you look at the actual 
correlations and, and way this, 

1909
01:52:27,560 --> 01:52:30,800
you know, goes back and forth 
with the equity markets with 

1910
01:52:31,640 --> 01:52:36,600
risk episodes, how gold operates
as a counter hedge asset, you 

1911
01:52:36,640 --> 01:52:39,840
actually find like, if 
everything about Bitcoin is 

1912
01:52:39,840 --> 01:52:42,680
true, it should just be parallel
to how gold operates. 

1913
01:52:42,680 --> 01:52:46,240
And it doesn't do that. 
It's acts as if it's the 

1914
01:52:46,240 --> 01:52:50,600
frothiest of the froth of a tech
stock in the S&P 500. 

1915
01:52:51,000 --> 01:52:54,720
That is how people see it 
outside the religious seller 

1916
01:52:54,720 --> 01:52:57,480
tree of Bitcoins. 
People see it as a frothy tech 

1917
01:52:57,480 --> 01:53:00,840
stock or something in the third 
world they can use to get in and

1918
01:53:00,840 --> 01:53:05,640
out of Fiat currencies. 
And so there there is no diamond

1919
01:53:05,640 --> 01:53:09,680
hands, there is no huddle 
culture when it comes to the 

1920
01:53:10,520 --> 01:53:14,400
much wider circle of people that
are interacting with 

1921
01:53:14,400 --> 01:53:17,600
stablecoins, Bitcoin, encryptor,
crypto in general. 

1922
01:53:17,760 --> 01:53:22,600
And so this epiphany that I saw 
in the Venezuela case study made

1923
01:53:22,600 --> 01:53:26,080
me see where you could forecast 
in the future as crypto becomes 

1924
01:53:26,080 --> 01:53:30,680
collateral for loans, it's like,
and if stablecoins have a bank 

1925
01:53:30,680 --> 01:53:35,960
run, like no one is going to 
have any loyalty to Bitcoin. 

1926
01:53:36,240 --> 01:53:38,800
Like if stablecoins go down and 
all of crypto's going down, no 

1927
01:53:38,800 --> 01:53:40,720
one's going to ride that roller 
coaster. 

1928
01:53:40,920 --> 01:53:43,200
They everyone is going. 
To rush for the door to get 

1929
01:53:43,200 --> 01:53:48,560
completely out of crypto. 
And so that is a very huge risk 

1930
01:53:48,760 --> 01:53:52,920
that we're just sleepwalking 
into because of all these types 

1931
01:53:52,920 --> 01:53:54,760
of myths and all these 
narratives that are out there. 

1932
01:53:58,200 --> 01:54:02,160
I that I for me that, that sums 
it up quite well. 

1933
01:54:04,160 --> 01:54:06,680
Bennett, do you have any other 
questions or anything you want 

1934
01:54:06,680 --> 01:54:10,560
to throw it at at Peter? 
I do not. 

1935
01:54:10,560 --> 01:54:14,800
I just want to remind people 
they can find Peter Ryan at Ryan

1936
01:54:14,800 --> 01:54:18,120
Research both his sub stack and 
his consulting services if you 

1937
01:54:18,120 --> 01:54:20,240
need them. 
And thank you very much for 

1938
01:54:20,240 --> 01:54:25,240
joining us, Ryan. 
Peter, thank you, Ryan. 

1939
01:54:26,000 --> 01:54:31,480
Yeah, and I just want to, as I 
did in the pre show, thank you 

1940
01:54:31,480 --> 01:54:35,600
guys for having me on. 
You guys, as I said in my essay,

1941
01:54:35,600 --> 01:54:43,080
have been a stalwart duo in 
criticizing Bitcoin, But that 

1942
01:54:43,080 --> 01:54:46,360
almost like trivializes it where
it's like you are doing real 

1943
01:54:46,360 --> 01:54:50,600
journalism of chasing down 
leads, of fact checking, of 

1944
01:54:50,600 --> 01:54:57,400
really doing the Lord's work in 
providing something that just 

1945
01:54:57,400 --> 01:55:00,640
should be like inherently there,
which is unfortunately not 

1946
01:55:00,640 --> 01:55:04,200
really the case broadly. 
So I think people should really 

1947
01:55:04,240 --> 01:55:06,960
commend you guys for what you've
done over the years, the 

1948
01:55:06,960 --> 01:55:08,720
platform that you provided for 
people. 

1949
01:55:09,680 --> 01:55:13,200
And for being like an essential 
reference is like the more I've 

1950
01:55:13,200 --> 01:55:16,400
gotten into like the study of 
history and how historians work,

1951
01:55:17,720 --> 01:55:19,440
I'll just keep buttering you 
guys up. 

1952
01:55:19,840 --> 01:55:24,600
They will go back to crypto, 
crypto critics corner and all of

1953
01:55:24,600 --> 01:55:26,080
that. 
And it will be an essential 

1954
01:55:26,080 --> 01:55:30,320
reference tax and primary source
for understanding the history of

1955
01:55:30,320 --> 01:55:33,960
the emergence of this industry. 
Literally exactly what I would 

1956
01:55:33,960 --> 01:55:37,320
love to hear as someone who's 
done this for fucking free for 

1957
01:55:37,320 --> 01:55:40,920
way too way too long to be like 
yeah yeah exactly. 

1958
01:55:40,920 --> 01:55:44,600
I want people to talk about this
in 10 years and how. 

1959
01:55:45,000 --> 01:55:46,960
You monetize that, but it's 
going to happen. 

1960
01:55:49,880 --> 01:55:52,960
Peter, I did not expect this to 
go for two hours, so I just want

1961
01:55:52,960 --> 01:55:54,640
to thank you for joining us. 
I did like that. 

1962
01:55:54,640 --> 01:55:57,920
Yeah, this has been a very, very
long and fruitful discussion, 

1963
01:55:57,920 --> 01:55:59,720
and I appreciate it. 
So thank you. 

1964
01:56:00,520 --> 01:56:02,160
Yeah. 
Oh, and and last Easter egg, 

1965
01:56:03,160 --> 01:56:06,840
part of the title of my essay is
Money by Vile Means is a direct 

1966
01:56:06,840 --> 01:56:11,520
quote from William Shakespeare's
Julius Caesar because it's from 

1967
01:56:11,520 --> 01:56:14,560
a scene that has a very 
apartment metaphor that is 

1968
01:56:14,560 --> 01:56:16,440
utilized that I explained in the
essay. 

1969
01:56:16,800 --> 01:56:23,480
But as the Easter egg, when we 
were all meeting each other for 

1970
01:56:23,480 --> 01:56:27,720
the first time online and and 
discussing all of our skepticism

1971
01:56:27,720 --> 01:56:33,320
and journalism around crypto, 
somehow we landed on our little 

1972
01:56:33,320 --> 01:56:35,520
group chat being called Vile 
Gang. 

1973
01:56:36,160 --> 01:56:39,080
I think it was because Adam 
Backer, someone called one of 

1974
01:56:39,080 --> 01:56:42,480
us. 
We were behaving as vile and 

1975
01:56:42,480 --> 01:56:46,160
then got adopted as the moniker.
Yeah. 

1976
01:56:46,160 --> 01:56:51,520
So it's, it was amazing how I 
was like, you know, history's 

1977
01:56:51,520 --> 01:56:54,480
funny that way or life's funny 
that way when I could land on 

1978
01:56:54,480 --> 01:56:56,040
this turnip. 
Field You're like William 

1979
01:56:56,040 --> 01:56:59,120
Shakespeare. 
Yeah, that it it, it connects 

1980
01:56:59,120 --> 01:57:02,280
all the dots together. 
So it's a it's a fun little 

1981
01:57:02,280 --> 01:57:03,400
Easter egg there. 
I. 

1982
01:57:03,520 --> 01:57:05,720
I really, I love this. 
I love this discussion. 

1983
01:57:05,720 --> 01:57:07,520
Thank you Peter. 
This has been fantastic. 

1984
01:57:08,040 --> 01:57:08,880
All right. 
Thanks guys.