1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,119 Welcome back, everyone. I am Cass PNC. 2 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:10,400 I'm joined, as usual, by my partner in crime, Mr. Bennett 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:11,600 Tomlin. How are you? 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:14,120 Oh, I'm doing. How are you, Cass? 5 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:17,400 The same. We have a very special guest 6 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:19,840 today though, so at least that makes it a little bit better. 7 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,960 We have noted skeptic, writer, critic, I don't know, 8 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:25,640 researcher, I don't know what you want to call her. 9 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,400 Molly White, who does Web 3 is going great. 10 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:34,800 And we have her here to discuss, first of all, kind of Donald 11 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:40,440 Trump's latest crypto endeavors, the Trump wallet and these other 12 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,840 these other issues, but also what life has been like doing 13 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:49,760 crypto research and being critical of the space since the 14 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,120 collapse of FTX, which I think was the last time we had you on, 15 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:55,120 or maybe it was during the SBF trial. 16 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,720 So, yeah, so let's get started. Molly, how do you want to start 17 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,000 this? Let's let's talk about the crazy 18 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,200 Trump wallet. For background for people who do 19 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,560 not watch the Trump crypto space as closely as the psychopaths in 20 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:13,800 this room, Trump and his like meme coin end of the Trump 21 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:18,320 crypto empire announced that they were going to be launching 22 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:22,880 a Trump branded cryptocurrency wallet, which would allow you to 23 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:27,280 buy and sell various tokens with the Trump meme coin prominently 24 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,000 placed at the top. Which was a scoop that came out 25 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:35,000 and then was almost immediately, uh, dampened by the Trump sons 26 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,360 coming out and saying they had no idea what all of this was and 27 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:39,920 that they'd never heard about it before. 28 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,480 Is there any speculation as to whether they indeed heard about 29 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:45,720 it before and were lying? Or is that just is? 30 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:47,840 Is no one talking to? They'll be just like, OK, let's 31 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:48,760 move on. Is that? 32 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:51,440 Yeah, I think it's a little hard to say. 33 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,040 I mean, it, it seems a little weird to me that they would like 34 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,680 sign off on it and then as soon as it was publicly announced 35 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,520 totally go back on that. It's, I mean, certainly not the 36 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,200 the weirdest thing they've done, not. 37 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,760 From the Trump's, Yeah, I mean. Yeah, but I also don't really 38 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:07,960 see the benefit to them in doing that. 39 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,360 And so I, I suspect that there really just was no communication 40 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,640 and that the Trump meme coin team believed that they had the 41 00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:20,920 authority to use the Trump brand to do, I guess whatever they 42 00:02:20,920 --> 00:02:23,640 wanted or whatever they wanted in the crypto sphere or 43 00:02:23,640 --> 00:02:25,640 something like that. That their licensing deal was 44 00:02:25,640 --> 00:02:28,600 broad enough to cover this type of product. 45 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,200 And then the Trump sons, you know, were basically finding out 46 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:36,080 about it along with the rest of us and had a very different 47 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,880 opinion of that licensing deal. Yeah, so the Trump sons, even 48 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,160 when they're underoath, have a hard time remembering what they 49 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,280 did in regards to their various businesses and things like that. 50 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,000 So you always have to take their thoughts and what their role in 51 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,200 their own businesses was with the grain of salt. 52 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,760 Salt. The other interesting thing 53 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,320 about the wallet to me was that it was offering referral 54 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:00,520 rewards. Like in order to get people to 55 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,680 sign up for the wallet, you could get like if you went and 56 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,200 got other people to sign up for the wallet, you got even more of 57 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,360 the Trump meme coin. And so of course, they had to 58 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,440 have that kind of marketing mechanism in there of course 59 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,880 too. Yeah, I mean really, why not 60 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,360 just merge crypto with an outright market multi level 61 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,280 marketing scheme? You know, it just seems like the 62 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,320 natural evolution, especially when Trump is involved, The 63 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:24,200 perfect. Fonzie, like really what had a 64 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,120 broader level at a meta level? Like, for me, what it shows is 65 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:33,080 Trump has engaged so broadly with the cryptocurrency industry 66 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,320 and through so many different deals that even the people in 67 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,360 charge of managing his corrupt enterprise prices can't keep 68 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,000 track of all of the various corrupt enterprises he's engaged 69 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,840 in, which is incredible. It's just brilliant to watch. 70 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:53,000 Yeah, when I posted, I made that map of all of the Trump entities 71 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,560 that are involved in just the crypto end of his businesses. 72 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,960 I wasn't even trying to get into all the other parts of it, but 73 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,160 someone made a joke that was like, oh, they're going to be so 74 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:03,840 happy that someone has finally made an org chart for them. 75 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,360 And I was like, honestly, you might be right. 76 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:10,320 And ironically, I think they do not have like Eric and Donald 77 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,040 Trump could not tell you the names of the various entities 78 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,080 they're using in the cryptocurrency sphere. 79 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,920 Can you talk a little bit about how this Trump wallet has 80 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,840 resolved once Donald Trump Junior and Eric Trump did become 81 00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:25,480 aware of what they were doing? Yeah. 82 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,680 So there was this sort of couple of days of just chaos and 83 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,280 uncertainty where people were like, did Magic Eden just like. 84 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,160 So Magic Eden is the crypto company that was partnering with 85 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,520 the Trump meme coin, presumably to actually do the development 86 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,480 work for this wallet or, I guess, rescan, a wallet that 87 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,320 they had purchased, essentially Slingshot. 88 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:46,160 Slingshot. Yeah. 89 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,360 And so some people were like, did Magic Eden just totally make 90 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,280 this up? Like, did they have no deal 91 00:04:52,280 --> 00:04:54,400 whatsoever with any Trump entity? 92 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,280 And there was, like, all of this confusion or, like, maybe their 93 00:04:56,280 --> 00:04:58,800 Twitter account got hacked and they launched, you know, the 94 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:00,720 scam project. You know, there was all of this 95 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,240 confusion and then a couple of days later, Eric Trump 96 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,640 essentially announced like great news, we've come to this 97 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:12,160 resolution where the wallet is no longer going forward. 98 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,080 And the World Liberty Financial Project, which is a totally 99 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,840 separate portion of the Trump crypto empire. 100 00:05:18,840 --> 00:05:22,760 And it is more closely tide to the Trump sons than it is to the 101 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,200 people who are running the meme coin end of the business. 102 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,600 They are going to be the ones creating the Trump wallet 103 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:30,920 because that was really the original source of the conflict. 104 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:36,720 Is that 2 portions of the crypto Trump empire was we're working 105 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,760 on what would presumably be a competing product. 106 00:05:39,840 --> 00:05:43,400 And so, you know, Magic Eden is essentially out of the the 107 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,400 picture at this point, you know, sort of going back to selling 108 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,240 NFTS or whatever it is that they do in their day-to-day to 109 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,600 whoever is left buying NFTS, I guess who's. 110 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:56,480 Buying. Those and the the Trump Sons are 111 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,440 going to be the ones with their grubby little hands on the Trump 112 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:04,080 wallet branding, I suppose. And like, the fun little wrinkle 113 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:08,680 for me is like, Donald Trump himself might be kind of 114 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,880 implicated in the licensing deal that like with the Trump meme 115 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,520 coin people because that's through CIC Digital LLC. 116 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:18,440 And like, Trump's ethics disclosures when he started this 117 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,920 term listed him as the manager, president, secretary and 118 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:28,040 treasurer for CIC Digital LLC. So that makes it a little bit 119 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:32,560 harder disclaim knowledge of your licensing dealer, what you 120 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,520 might have signed there. None of it, like I've been able 121 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:40,320 to sort of clutch together a general idea of probably what 122 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,200 happened, but it still doesn't really make any sense because 123 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:48,720 like, ultimately Trump is behind all of these in one way or 124 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:53,080 another, generally via his sons, although he does have 125 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,600 substantial control over a number of these projects and 126 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,960 certainly knowledge of them. And so the idea that, like, this 127 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:05,440 could sort of happen without there being any connection 128 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:09,600 between this project and the Trump Organization or the Trump 129 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,680 brand or the whoever, you know, issued the license, it doesn't 130 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:17,160 really make sense because it is all ultimately flowing back up 131 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,560 to Trump. And so I think there is like a 132 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,760 disconnect there, but there is sort of no legitimate 133 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:26,440 explanation for how this happened without, you know, at 134 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,120 least one and probably more people screwing up pretty badly. 135 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,240 And I, I think your intuition is probably like about the 136 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:34,920 licensing deal is probably right. 137 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:39,440 CIC Digital signed a deal that was broader than they intended 138 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:43,640 it to be and thought that they had wink, wink, nudge, nudge 139 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,920 handshake deal with the Trump meme coin team to stick to meme 140 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,960 coins and the digital trading cards because there's a lot of 141 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:52,880 overlap in those groups, even though they're separate 142 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,000 entities. So and the Trump trading cards 143 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,080 and stuff like that. And then they, because of their 144 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,120 desire to have even more money, looked at the deal and said, you 145 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,520 know, and then. Then you have to assume that 146 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,520 these people decided that they were going to launch a Trump 147 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,720 wallet, presumably knowing full well that World Liberty 148 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,320 Financial was working on something along those lines. 149 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,000 Because one of the first things I wrote in my original piece 150 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,520 about this was like, hey, this looks like it's going to 151 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:22,560 conflict with the World Liberty Financial product. 152 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,360 And that was like, just me trying to write a very quick 153 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,880 article before they announced this this wallet. 154 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:29,920 And that was like the first thing that came to my mind. 155 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:34,039 And so how did that not occur to anybody in the Trump orbit 156 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,760 before this project was announced that like, hey, this 157 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,159 is going to step on their toes pretty directly? 158 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,960 I mean, maybe they decided that World Liberty is never going to 159 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,520 launch a product besides the stable coin that they held their 160 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:51,560 vote to launch a single avenstance back in December and 161 00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:55,160 they have yet to launch that one instance and have held, well, 162 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,560 basically no governance votes or anything since then. 163 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,920 They might have been getting cynical about World Liberty 164 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,000 Financial's ability to engage with these type of problems. 165 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,840 Do you think that there's, I guess there's this is like AI 166 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,080 don't know how to frame this question properly, but I'm going 167 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,480 to try. I feel like, and I know you've 168 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:17,760 both done organization charts of, of this stuff. 169 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:25,920 There's so many different entities under the Trump name or 170 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,320 directly working with the Trump family. 171 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,480 It just wouldn't surprise me if two things happened here. 172 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,440 One, they signed this rush deal that they didn't actually take 173 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:42,440 any time to read or look over. And and then Magic Eden was 174 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,680 like, great, now we can do whatever we want. 175 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:49,240 And when they decided to announce that they were going to 176 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:54,240 do a wallet, like I, I bet they just weren't, aren't, weren't 177 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,360 they going around in the Middle East and following daddy around 178 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:02,440 and like, aren't they busy with bribery and like other stuff so 179 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,320 that they they don't have time to take calls from like magic 180 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,240 Eden NFT marketplace? Like, I'm just curious what you 181 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,440 think, if it's, I guess I'm wondering if there's purposeful 182 00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:16,600 complexity to this so that it's difficult for anyone to 183 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,680 understand or follow or relate back to the Trump family in any 184 00:10:20,680 --> 00:10:27,040 real substantive way, Or if you think this is just people who 185 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,360 don't know what the fuck they're doing and they're just going for 186 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,760 it. I mean, I would say maybe both. 187 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:34,640 I think both are probably possible. 188 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:37,720 Yeah. I mean, I don't know, it it 189 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:42,160 seemed like it really blindsided the sort of magic Eden Trump 190 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,400 meme coin end of things, who clearly did not have a a 191 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,160 response to this prepared. I mean, if you look at the 192 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,840 answers to questions posed by the crypto community around 193 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:58,240 like, why are the Trump sons disavowing this magic Eden and 194 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,600 the meme coin team and various people associated with both 195 00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:05,400 either didn't respond or they were like, no, no, no, like it's 196 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,840 totally cool because it's the Trump meme coin. 197 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,800 And like sort of just didn't answer the question around the 198 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,560 fact that like the Trump sons were just saying this wasn't 199 00:11:13,560 --> 00:11:16,200 allowed. And so, like, I don't think that 200 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,800 they made a calculated decision that they were just going to 201 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,680 like, go up against the Trump sons and their planned project 202 00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:28,520 and expected this kind of backlash because they clearly 203 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:32,080 weren't prepared to respond to it and then had to sort of tuck 204 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,160 their tail between their legs and, you know, walk away when 205 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,920 and the Trump son said, you know, we've reached a deal, that 206 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,400 this is not moving forward. That doesn't seem like, you 207 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,320 know, the the work of a mastermind at play. 208 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,480 So I think it was probably just incompetence, frankly. 209 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,360 They certainly seem incompetent. I'm getting a kind of 210 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,120 incompetent vibe from them in general though. 211 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:58,400 Like there is there's a tiny part of me that likes to invent 212 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,520 conspiracy theories and there were a whole bunch of people 213 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,680 online who were like talking about the Donald Trump, Elon 214 00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:08,960 Musk blow up as a kayfabe as them acting out like a heel turn 215 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,120 to try to eventually come back together. 216 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,280 And in a certain sense, that's what World Liberty Financial and 217 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,920 the Trump meme coin kind of organized or facilitated here, 218 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,000 because the Trump meme coin served its purpose of allowing 219 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:25,160 people to purchase access to Donald Trump and his dinner and 220 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,000 stuff like that. And now World Liberty Financial 221 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:33,000 made the final payout to the Trump meme coin team by buying a 222 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,120 bunch of their tokens. Trump meme coin team doesn't 223 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:40,200 have any more projects and World Liberty has the unequivocal 224 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,480 claim to being the official Trump wallet. 225 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,720 My guess is it was actually a bunch of sloppiness and anything 226 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,280 they figured out was done after the fact, but it's possible to 227 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,560 construct a narrative that this was like them killing off the 228 00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:56,320 highest liability project. I think perhaps maybe one of the 229 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,120 smarter moves would have been for World Liberty Financial to 230 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,720 just sort of absorb it, because then they would at least have a 231 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,320 technical team with them that might feasibly launch thing, 232 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,280 which the World Liberty Financial project seems yet to 233 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,000 have done. Hey, they kind of launched a 234 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,280 stable. Coin, kind of. 235 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,640 They haven't figured out like how to do attestations or audits 236 00:13:18,680 --> 00:13:20,680 or have like a. So like every other. 237 00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:24,520 Sign up Yeah, every other stable $2 billion from MGX. 238 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,800 Maybe they can get Lutnick to just vouch for it with a pinky 239 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,320 swear. It's worked before, hasn't it? 240 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,960 Do you expect any? Like there's not gonna be any 241 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:35,760 and nothing is gonna come of this, right? 242 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,400 Like this is other than whatever some shitty Trump products. 243 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,800 Like, I guess I'm saying no law enforcement actions, no civil 244 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:44,240 suits. No, like nothing. 245 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:45,120 Yeah. Right. 246 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,800 No, I mean, the Trump sons, you know, they threatened to cease 247 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,760 and desist. That was clearly resolved with 248 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,680 whatever deal that they reached. And, you know, I don't think 249 00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:57,200 anything was really illegal about it. 250 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,000 I mean, perhaps there was a violation of whatever Trump 251 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,840 licensing agreement happened, but that's clearly been 252 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,000 resolved. So, yeah, I mean, I don't think 253 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,160 there's going to be anything substantial as a result of this. 254 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,240 Maybe there might have been violations of some ethics rules 255 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:13,880 that. Started a long time ago. 256 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,440 Didn't that's just taken for granted at this point. 257 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,200 This is this is small potatoes compared to most of that. 258 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,360 I was looking forward to seeing how that, so they did have that. 259 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,040 You know, there was this wait list sign up for the Trump 260 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,120 wallet and there were going to be these distributions of all 261 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,800 these Trump meme coins based on some referral program. 262 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,560 And one person was going to receive a distribution 263 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:37,920 equivalent to $100,000 worth of Trump tokens. 264 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,560 And I was kind of looking forward to watching that and 265 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,240 seeing like to what extent people were able to game the 266 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:47,240 referral program or like maybe the $100,000 winner just 267 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,200 happened to be a staunch Republican who was outspoken in 268 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,600 favor of Trump, you know, like that type of thing. 269 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,000 So. How many just and sons can 270 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:59,000 Justin son refer? Yeah, exactly. 271 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,640 So that was gonna be fun, and that has been taken away from 272 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,280 me. But honestly, I think the drama 273 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,880 and the sort of embarrassment around all of this has been 274 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,440 worthwhile ultimately. Do you think there's anything to 275 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,640 be said for the Trump meme coin still? 276 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:15,840 Like I obvious I don't even know what it's trading at now. 277 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,640 I know that it went up briefly in price a little bit like when 278 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,160 when the dinner stuff was gonna happen. 279 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,280 Has it kind of stayed there? Started. 280 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:25,920 To go down like part way through the. 281 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:28,600 Yeah. Is everyone selling it once 282 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,160 they've gotten in? I think, yeah. 283 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,160 I mean, so I think what we're seeing are these sort of 284 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,000 repeated attempts by Trump and the meme coin team and sort of 285 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:41,120 those in that orbit to pump up excitement in the meme coin to 286 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,480 drive the price higher. We keep seeing them pulling 287 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,400 stunts like this, whether it's the meme coin dinner or, you 288 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,280 know, the announcement with this, the world liberty or not 289 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,000 world the the wallet. You know that you could earn 290 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,960 these tokens and maybe that'll drive a bunch of trading or 291 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,560 obviously people buying the token through the wallet. 292 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:01,880 But it seems like they're getting to the point of sort of 293 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,960 diminishing returns where each new exciting announcement 294 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:10,040 doesn't really generate as much interest as previously. 295 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,000 You know, and it's, it's kind of the same thing with like the 296 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,360 Trump tweets about crypto or, you know, Trump family tweets 297 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,080 about crypto, where like it used to be that anyone mentioning 298 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,880 crypto used to, you know, generate a lot of trading 299 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,080 excitement. And now it's just kind of like, 300 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,840 oh, they're pumping A token again and no one really cares. 301 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:32,400 And the the price maybe briefly spikes like a small amount, but 302 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,840 not that much. I think they're sort of having 303 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:41,680 to resort to more and more sort of extreme plans to pump the 304 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,440 token and it's not really reacting in the way that they 305 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,160 would like it to. I guess I'm also curious just on 306 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,080 a more, I don't want to call it existential, but a broader, like 307 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,680 a broader sense of the term. I assume you're like Bennett and 308 00:16:55,680 --> 00:17:02,560 I where this is like naked corruption and it's like it's, 309 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,599 we've never seen anything like this before in our lives. 310 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,800 But I'm curious if you're like optimistic or pessimistic about 311 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,079 like, you know, ensuring that this kind of thing doesn't 312 00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:14,960 happen again or that, like, do you think there's going to be a 313 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:19,280 future where regulators and law enforcement try to come down on 314 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,440 like the president grifting or do you think those days are dead 315 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,160 forever now? I, Bennett and I just Bennett 316 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,760 just played a video, an old video of us talking and me being 317 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,680 for for the first time and for who knows what, how many years. 318 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,200 I was like, oh, I'm so optimistic about, you know, 319 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,680 like, I think law enforcement's finally getting it together and 320 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:40,920 regulators are going to finally stop the scammers. 321 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:42,680 And then Ben, it's like, no. And he? 322 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,240 Was almost exactly. Destroyed, completely destroyed 323 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,600 me and you just see the life drain out of my body as he keeps 324 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:55,080 going and destroying my my hope and I and I just want to see if 325 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,200 you're ready to take me down again or if you would prefer to, 326 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,680 you know, be the optimistic side instead. 327 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:09,040 Yeah, I don't see much hope for that, at least in the sort of 328 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,080 foreseeable future. I would like to think that at 329 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:17,800 some point things will get honestly so bad that there is 330 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:24,280 sort of a required reaction to it and that we do sort of swing 331 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,920 the pendulum back a little bit in terms of corruption, open 332 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,920 corruption, you know, dealing with that kind of thing. 333 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:36,400 But right now, there's no room for regulators, law enforcement, 334 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,200 anyone to step in on something like the Trump meme coin. 335 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:46,360 You know, as far as the types of things that even Congress could 336 00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:51,480 be going after to try to, you know, go after Trump and, and, 337 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,720 you know, impeach him or, you know, impose some kinds of 338 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,760 consequences. I wouldn't even expect it to be 339 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:02,960 this, you know, so it, it does not seem particularly optimistic 340 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,720 that it will be regulatory or legal intervention that will be 341 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,640 the demise of these projects. It's not to say they won't have 342 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,280 a demise, but I don't think it'll be at the hands of the 343 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,440 SEC. Yeah, Like either Trump is 344 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,720 successful in his fascistic autocratic consolidation of 345 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:26,520 power, or there's a swing back the other way because he fails 346 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,200 to consolidate the power. And like, if Dems take enough 347 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,480 seats in 26, I'm sure every single committee head will try 348 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,400 to come up with their own investigation that they can talk 349 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,160 about to the press as often as possible. 350 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,080 So one of the subcommittee's might start an investigation 351 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,560 into something Trump crypto related, but you're not going to 352 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,760 see any legal action until at least like, what, 2029? 353 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,760 And even then, like if you want it to come from like regulators, 354 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,240 like a civil action, those are going to need to be like 355 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,200 refunded and rebuilt, right? Like get the new commissioners 356 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,800 in, get the yeah, like higher enough staff, higher enough 357 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:01,240 lawyers, higher enough investigators. 358 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,680 Like there's not, there's not going to like in the SEC right 359 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:06,240 now. I don't think there is a 360 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,920 thorough or complete Trump mean coin file that like someone 361 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,000 could step in and use as like the basis of a suit. 362 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,040 And so there's a lot of barriers in that regard as well. 363 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,080 Plus, I think there's the concern that Congress is going 364 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,440 to pass legislation that is going to make it more 365 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,600 challenging for regulators going forward, so that in order for 366 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,920 regulators to get back into the game, they're also going to have 367 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,560 to 1st handle these new laws that have come in. 368 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:38,360 And that's not a quick process. Yeah, yeah, I mean, every time. 369 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,360 Rustin Benham is they'd take him down to Capitol Hill. 370 00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:46,040 He's like, I mean, the CFTC is a competent regulator, but you 371 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,640 guys have seen our budget right in the staff numbers. 372 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,720 You got to fix that if you want us to take over a crypto. 373 00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:55,080 And all the Republican congressmen are like, yeah, 374 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:56,720 CFTC's got it. Listen, he said. 375 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,000 They're a great regulator. Yeah, we stopped listening. 6 376 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,720 words in. So I'm not optimistic for at 377 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,000 least the next, I don't know, four or five years. 378 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:11,920 And even then, like Trump tried a coup and like had very few 379 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,200 consequences. So like, isn't red coin that 380 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:14,920 bad? Right. 381 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:17,960 Yeah, I mean, yeah, I, I hear that I but this. 382 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,520 OK. So on that depressing note, do 383 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:23,440 you like, are you at all surprised? 384 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,160 Right. So we had the jury, the, the 385 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:31,200 verdict for SPF in November of 23 and then we had him sentenced 386 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:36,320 in March of 24. And now we're a little over a 387 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:40,000 year out of that. And there's no rules, there's no 388 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,000 regulations. Crypto's booming. 389 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,480 Prices are at all time highs. Like, are you at all shocked by 390 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,200 the speed at which this happened? 391 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,280 Like we went from I, we've, we've had journalists on here 392 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,360 who said like, oh, I think this is the death of crypto. 393 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,600 We've had people on who were like, oh, when, when SPF, when 394 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,880 FTX collapsed, like I, I was pretty sure it was over. 395 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,240 And I think Bennett and I both were like, no, it's not over for 396 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,400 sure. But I definitely did not expect 397 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,920 to see this trajectory. I you can find clips of me, I 398 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,520 thought there was a chance it got kind of regulated to the 399 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,960 periphery in the United States, but that was contingent on Dems 400 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,360 deciding that the political cost of being associated with SPF was 401 00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:26,200 really high and then maintaining control after the 2024 election. 402 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,640 They didn't seem to care that much about the SPF thing. 403 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,280 They got over it pretty quick. The Republicans, I guess, 404 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,400 couldn't make it stick and then they lost. 405 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,520 So. Yeah, I mean, I think the only 406 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:39,120 thing that surprised me was the speed. 407 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,240 So I had a lot of people saying the same things. 408 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,360 To me, that was like, why are you even still writing about 409 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:46,400 crypto? You should go pivot to AI like 410 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,120 everybody else and start criticizing AI or whatever. 411 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,520 And I was like, I don't think this is dead. 412 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,280 You know, there's, I was like, certainly it is down, you know, 413 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,120 prices are down, but there was really no change in the 414 00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:05,440 circumstances of things beyond the sort of price change and I 415 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,320 guess minimally more interest from regulators. 416 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,160 And so, you know, I was basically saying like, look, 417 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:16,880 crypto is cyclical. We see these intense like boom 418 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:21,200 and bust cycles and these periods of sort of dormancy and 419 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,840 then things go right back up again when there's sort of a new 420 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:28,320 story or a new shift that they're able to make to drive 421 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,640 the prices higher. And so I, I expected that, but I 422 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,320 did not expect it to be this quick. 423 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,880 I, I thought it was going to be a more a slower turn around and 424 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,000 I think that's because I really did not anticipate the extent to 425 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:47,040 which crypto was going to get into political campaigning, you 426 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,200 know, lobbying. You know, they certainly had 427 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,840 done some of that, mostly with FTX and SPF doing their end of 428 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,320 things. But when the whole industry 429 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:01,080 really dove in with the Super PACs and that type of really 430 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,000 overt sort of political messaging with Coinbase, you 431 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,920 know, sending out alerts to people through their app around, 432 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,840 you know, getting out the vote and that kind of thing that I 433 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,640 did not quite anticipate. And that, I think, is why it was 434 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,040 so fast as they were able to get, you know, the political end 435 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,680 of things behind them. Yeah, Sam Bankman freed really 436 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,200 woke them up. Like they went from donating 437 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,120 very little to realizing that if they spent a lot, they could buy 438 00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:27,720 more connections than they thought. 439 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:33,280 We hadn't Natash from Slate on and we haven't put it out yet, 440 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:38,360 but we but we talk to him about the two. 441 00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:40,040 I guess I'm this is again a double question. 442 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:45,760 Two things, one, the the idea that they fair shake and these 443 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:51,760 other like super PACs and stuff that you that you've done a 444 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,400 great job of covering. They already were loaded with 445 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,160 cash when FTX collapsed like they had money in the bank ready 446 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,400 to go and they still needed to spend it. 447 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,760 So they, you know, that's why they, there was no one donating 448 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,360 after, I assume after the FTX collapse, but they, they had a 449 00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:11,080 full powder keg. So they were ready to go. 450 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,680 I guess in this, this run up that we're seeing and this, I 451 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:20,600 don't know, all this political force behind it kind of feels 452 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,680 like there's actually not, I don't want to use the word 453 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,640 organic, but it doesn't feel like there's that retail drive 454 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,120 that we did previously, previously see. 455 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,920 Like there, there was something different about the FTXSBF 456 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,280 finance bull run than the one we're seeing now. 457 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,080 Or at least that's how I feel. And I and I just, I'm wondering 458 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,520 what you think that means for cryptocurrency, Like what you 459 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,160 think that means in terms of maybe not this cycle, but just 460 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,160 like it's popular. Like is the popularity waning? 461 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,160 You know, like it might be up, but do people care as much or I 462 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:55,920 like, yeah, I'd just love to hear your thoughts on. 463 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,360 Yeah, I mean, I think there's really two things there. 464 00:25:58,360 --> 00:26:02,120 I think 1 is that you're right that there is really just not as 465 00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:07,280 much lay interest in crypto as we saw in 2020-2021. 466 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,680 You know, when people were like, should I buy this? 467 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,640 You know, like I'm seeing these ads, maybe I should buy this. 468 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,480 Or, you know, people were really buying into the idea that like 469 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:20,000 maybe they, you know, as someone who did not day trade or you 470 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,920 know, usually do that type of thing, could still make a quick 471 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:27,040 buck off of a crypto purchase that's not there. 472 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:28,800 I think you're quite right about that. 473 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,400 And I think that we are seeing the crypto industry sort of 474 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,400 lying about that. There is this very coordinated 475 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,520 effort, I think from major players in the American crypto 476 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:48,320 industry to inflate the figures around the sort of lay interest 477 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,920 in crypto, you know, selling this idea that one in five 478 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,960 Americans holds crypto and that that many people are out there, 479 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,840 you know, waiting for the pro crypto candidate to emerge so 480 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,800 that they could, you know, overlook any other political 481 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,400 differences and vote for them. That story was, you know, loud 482 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,560 and clear from the crypto industry during the most recent 483 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,360 election cycle, and it was pretty plainly fabricated. 484 00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:17,920 And then I mean even the. So loud and clear they were 485 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,560 afraid to put it in any of their ads they were finding. 486 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,360 Yeah, exactly. You know, they were funding 487 00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:25,600 these, you know, $1,000,000 ads with no mention of crypto. 488 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:31,400 You know, there was a great New Yorker piece where one of the 489 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,000 political operatives who was working with Fair Shake was 490 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,480 saying that they really needed to sell the story that, you 491 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,920 know, there was this big block of crypto voters out there. 492 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,200 And someone working at Coinbase said, well, I don't know if 493 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,240 there is this big block of crypto voters. 494 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,400 And so their analysts said we'll just invent 1. 495 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,800 I mean, it was like totally plain and out in the open. 496 00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:53,000 So I think that's a part of it. I think another part of it is 497 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,560 that we, I think the, the retail interest in crypto is sometimes 498 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:02,080 a little bit lagging. So you know, if you look at past 499 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:07,280 booms in the crypto world, they often follow major price run 500 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,520 UPS. They don't cause major price run 501 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,120 UPS. And so that's part of what it 502 00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:13,040 is. Yeah. 503 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,680 But I will say that, you know, adding to that, that's something 504 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,640 I've been saying for a while now, like crypto has sort of 505 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,640 been recovering for a while. Crypto prices were up in 506 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,200 November. You know, we're six months later 507 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,800 and I'm still not seeing a whole lot of everyday people suddenly 508 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,040 being like, maybe I should check out this crypto thing. 509 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,080 I'm wondering if that sort of happened already in the 510 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,800 2020-2021 era and there just hasn't been enough time for 511 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,600 people to sort of get back into it. 512 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,400 I'm you, I like you discussing it right now just kind of made 513 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:55,200 my brain flip a switch, which is I think there was it was there 514 00:28:55,200 --> 00:29:00,680 was such a force behind Bitcoin before, like up until I don't 515 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,680 know, 2021 maybe when people just I know Etherium has been 516 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,920 around for longer than that and I understand shit coins have 517 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:07,880 been around for longer than that. 518 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,120 But but I think really most of the liquidity and most of the 519 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,560 public attention was on Bitcoin and every time it would hit 520 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:21,600 some, you know, price that everyone was excited about every 521 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,160 there was a bunch of news stories about it. 522 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,200 Retail would come flooding in. You'd like it would go. 523 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,280 If it went to 20,000, Oh my God, this is a big deal. 524 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,920 If it went to 60,000, Oh my God, this is a big deal. 525 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,720 We hit 100,000 this time and no one cared. 526 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,200 Like no one care. When we hit 100,000 because it 527 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:45,120 was the same moment that the hawk to a meme coin launched and 528 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,120 all the headlines were about the hawk to a meme coin and nothing 529 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,680 like it. Totally swallowed, no pun 530 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,400 intended. Any news of the Bitcoin price 531 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,080 hitting, you know, this, this, this monumental point that, you 532 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,160 know, Bitcoiners had been excited about for a decade and 533 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,920 there was like no interest in it because Hayley Welch was over 534 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:07,800 here running some sort of crypto scam. 535 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,240 Exactly. I mean, I think that I it's it's 536 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,960 so funny, I think that all of the liquidity and attention has 537 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,560 been driven out of Bitcoin and Ethereum. 538 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,280 So no one, not all of it. Bennett OK, fine. 539 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,840 But but a lot of it, I do think a lot of it has gone to a bunch 540 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,680 of these other coins. And I think this is like, 541 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,440 honestly, I feel like this is an issue that people have talked 542 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,440 about for years where they're like, as you continue to divide 543 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,880 the liquidity and the attention, it causes problems. 544 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,560 Like, you're going to have some serious issues, but sorry, go 545 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,400 ahead, Bennett. Well, I would contend what 546 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,280 you're actually just pointing to, there is somewhat of a 547 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:46,680 bifurcation in cryptocurrency where search and assets have 548 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:52,680 been accepted as commodities and have moved more into the 549 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,560 traditional finance sector in terms of where a lot of their 550 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,240 where at least a decent portion of their volume is traded, where 551 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,120 a lot of the liquidity is and how certain types of like 552 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,160 finance people think of them. And I think this is also kind of 553 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,760 interrelated with the retail thing is you can get the kind of 554 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:15,080 safe crypto by buying some Bitcoin ETF or you can go to the 555 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,160 like type of crypto where a lot of people have been burned over 556 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,440 the last few years. Like meme coins and NFTS were 557 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,720 both two cycles that in terms of like the relationship to retail 558 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,920 were like highly extractive. There were very few people who 559 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,400 were like making it big in the NFT scene or making it big on 560 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,360 meme coins who weren't like crypto insiders, crypto traders 561 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,080 who were connected and already kind of in this stuff. 562 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:44,720 And so I do sometimes wonder like if a lot of the fresh fools 563 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,200 got burned doing dumb stuff. And so like you see kind of that 564 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,680 bifurcation, there's the kind of safe one or the dumb stuff. 565 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,560 Yeah, I think that's maybe a part of it. 566 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,880 That was that's sort of my theory is that like the same 567 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,720 people who might have been interested in this a couple 568 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:05,080 years ago are not like coming back to it because of some new 569 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,240 thing. Which really leads into my my 570 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,480 second thing, which is that the story isn't very good this time 571 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,560 around. You know, there, there was a 572 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,320 story a couple of years ago, it was all Web 3. 573 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,680 It was all this is going to be the, you know, international 574 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,560 computer that you can build anything on and it's going to 575 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,280 democratize the world and, you know, all this stuff. 576 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,600 And look at all these apps that we're building that do things 577 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,680 that are useful to people and everyone in their grandma is 578 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,960 going to want to sign up for it. You know, that was the story and 579 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,360 people were buying that. This time around, it's like, 580 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,120 yay, Bitcoin ETF's and people are like, what's an ETF, you 581 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,040 know, Or it's like, look, Donald Trump loves Bitcoin and people 582 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,760 are like him. The guy's selling gold plated 583 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,360 Bibles. You know, it's just not, it's 584 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,600 not appealing to people. And it's also not really 585 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,520 anything new. You know, it's a lot of like, 586 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,520 hey, look, we did this thing that, you know, in traditional 587 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,040 finance, but we did it with crypto and people are like, 588 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,440 great, I guess, you know that. Yeah, it doesn't appeal to, you 589 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,840 know, everyday people. Well, and like, what's kind of 590 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,840 interesting to me is one of the projects that has been kind of 591 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:13,080 successful right now is Polymarket, which is one of the 592 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,760 most gambling crypto apps that doesn't advertise itself as a 593 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,560 casino. You know, like that's where 594 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,440 crypto has kind of found people. And like the other types of 595 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,880 pseudo gambling like meme coins keep dying off because what's 596 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,560 your pitch to tell someone to use Sun Pump and to go on sun 597 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,560 Pump and pick your tokens you want to trade on Sun pump, 598 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:37,640 right? Like, what's the narrative you 599 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:42,400 construct around what you're doing besides guessing what sun 600 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,720 pump is going to go up, right? None of them, by the way. 601 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,760 None of them are going to go up. Well, like, that's interesting 602 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:54,080 to me because I feel like, and, and I feel like Bitcoin, it has 603 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,640 found its purpose, right? Like we don't have to like it, 604 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,480 but it has found its purpose. It's used for mainly, you know, 605 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:07,440 speculative like speculation, but also clearly corporations 606 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:14,480 are buying it and dissidents and people could hypothetically use 607 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,800 it. They're probably not, but they 608 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,920 could. So I mean it is essentially it 609 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,880 has found its use case and now that we have these more 610 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,360 traditional, you know brokers and. 611 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:28,600 Somewhere Satoshi is alive and has just heard. 612 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,120 You hear corporations are buying bitcoins and you had an 613 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,159 aneurysm. No. 614 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,800 Yeah, corporations are buying bitcoins and dissidents could 615 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,159 maybe use it, I guess. I don't think they are, but 616 00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:42,480 they. I know, I know I but. 617 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,639 The US government has launched A strategic Bitcoin reserve, 618 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,199 Satoshi. Let me tell you about BlackRock 619 00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:51,440 and Fidelity. The president, The president's 620 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,520 son is now in charge of a Bitcoin mining corporation. 621 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,760 Satoshi. The president himself said he 622 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,040 wants every single Bitcoin to be mined in the United States. 623 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,400 Satoshi. Anyway, I know, I know that 624 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,520 Bitcoin hypothetically has use cases and has real use cases 625 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,200 like speculation and we see that money is continuing to pour into 626 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,640 it and stuff, right? I, I don't suspect it's going to 627 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,320 go away. I don't think it's going to go 628 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,560 to 0 anytime soon. Etherium had found its use case. 629 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,280 I don't know if it's kind of has, I don't know if Etherium 630 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,120 has been going up as much as is it not going? 631 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,480 It's not going. Up so it's been underperforming 632 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,640 relative to Bitcoin. Bitcoin has caused a ton of 633 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,560 infighting in the Etherium community. 634 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,800 They all keep wanting to backstab anyone associated with 635 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,320 the foundation. There's like a whole bunch of 636 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,320 splinter groups arguing over what specific specific trick 637 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,400 they can do that'll make number go up and like another group 638 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:44,920 that says. Ethereums woke? 639 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,320 They went woke or something. There's also that narrative 640 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,880 Solana went anti woke with some of their recent ads whereas 641 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,400 Ethereum still woke. I see. 642 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:57,440 So OK. Only Auntie woke enough to 643 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,120 briefly release the ad before taking it down, so it was maybe? 644 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,160 Not that's true, that's true, but so OK, so Solana has 645 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,240 replaced Ethereum now as basically the place to write 646 00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:12,560 pumped up fun or whatever where you can, you can create your 647 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,080 shit coins, which is that's the use case, right? 648 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,440 But then the shit coins don't do anything. 649 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,000 So what are we doing here? And I think that that's what you 650 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,920 guys are like that. I'm just relaying this message 651 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:25,880 in my head and I'm just like, oh, this is really interesting. 652 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,280 Out of the, I don't know, hundreds of thousands, millions 653 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:36,920 of coins that exist now, there's one that has actually found any 654 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:41,560 kind of use case, maybe 2 if we include Ethereum and Solana, but 655 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,320 it seems like that could just be taken I. 656 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,880 Would say stablecoins, yeah. Each other. 657 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,640 It's funny because I'm obviously a critic of stablecoins, but I'm 658 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,360 a critic of stablecoins partially because to this day, I 659 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,720 don't see what useful purpose they serve outside of 660 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,000 legitimately just like criminals and sanctioned countries. 661 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,920 Like, I don't, it doesn't to me, it's like, oh, we're doing so 662 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,880 much for the, you know, for people who can't access dollars. 663 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:08,920 And I'm like, like North Korea, like what? 664 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,360 Service did the euro dollar feel in the late 20th century? 665 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,000 Exactly. Exactly. 666 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:15,960 Yeah. I mean, I, I think that's kind 667 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,160 of the common thread is like where there are use cases. 668 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,840 The question is, are they useful use cases? 669 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:28,240 You know, I mean, speculation is a use case, but like, I don't 670 00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:29,640 think it's going to change the world. 671 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,480 You know, there's, there's sort of and there's like criminal 672 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,440 activity is a use case. Like you really can't argue with 673 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,480 that in crypto. It's the one where it's found. 674 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,560 It's it's most utility, like every money laundering 675 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,600 indictment you read over the last like 18 months coming out 676 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,360 of the Department of Justice mentions Tether. 677 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,240 That's an exaggeration, people. It's probably like 90% or 678 00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:51,320 something. But like, it is like one of the 679 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,080 most common tools of money launderers and stuff. 680 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,400 And the crazy part of that is, is they gave the Secret Service 681 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,840 and everyone full access, right? Like Tethers integrated the 682 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,800 United States government into their operations, and still 683 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,440 criminals think it's the best tool. 684 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,680 Yeah. I mean, but I think that I think 685 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,000 that's actually maybe kind of an interesting loop back to what we 686 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,080 were just talking about, about sort of the lack of appealing 687 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,920 use cases. Is that like the appealing use 688 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,360 case for a while was that you could do things with crypto that 689 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,720 you weren't allowed to do otherwise. 690 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,240 And the one example that you came up with Bennett as of like 691 00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:29,560 something that is interesting to people is polymarket. 692 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,760 And I think that's because it's one of the few things that like 693 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,480 you can do it because there's a crypto app that lets you do it, 694 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,840 but you can't do it with dollars. 695 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,080 And like that is rapidly eroding. 696 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,520 We're seeing people starting to do the types of things that you 697 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,880 could once only do in crypto, you know, much more easily. 698 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,360 We're seeing it as the, you know, call sheet, for example, 699 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,360 is doing election betting. And, you know, there's there's 700 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,120 sort of easier ways for people to do these things without 701 00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,080 figuring out how to set up a crypto wallet. 702 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,720 And so, you know, to some extent, I think that the use 703 00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:06,200 cases are kind of going away with the push to A, legitimize 704 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,960 cryptocurrency and, B, deregulate everything else. 705 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,280 You know, it's like that arbitrage isn't really there 706 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,440 anymore. Vlad Tenev of Robin Hood would 707 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,240 personally stab 3 regulators if he was allowed to list election 708 00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:22,280 binary options. Like, yeah, like there's a lot 709 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,120 of these traditional people that want to be doing exactly what 710 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,720 Polymarket is doing. And assuming, assuming that 711 00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:30,120 eventually they get the chance, yeah, they'll edge out 712 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,600 Polymarket again. And Polymarket will be left with 713 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,520 the world's dumbest markets with the world's dumbest resolution. 714 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:37,920 Criteria. They can still do assassination 715 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,680 markets. Yeah, yeah, it'll be the it'll 716 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:45,680 be just for assassinations. The Santa Monica fire, that was 717 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,520 the moment I decided I fucking hated everything about Polly 718 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,360 Market and everything they stood for when they For anyone who 719 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:55,280 doesn't know, the Polly Market folks put up a when the Southern 720 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,000 California fires were happening, they allowed a a market to be 721 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,480 like, is Santa Monica going to burn down in the next two days 722 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,520 or something? And people might be like, oh, 723 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:05,720 well, that's just a betting market. 724 00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:07,840 But I just want to inform you that when you start 725 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,360 incentivizing that, right, you'd start saying, will this fire 726 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,640 happen in this neighborhood? Like you're kind of being like 727 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,520 nudging people, like go on, set the fire in the neighborhood. 728 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:23,240 So yeah, the fact that that remained up and had a resolution 729 00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:25,720 is just really disgusting. And they obviously don't have 730 00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:28,480 morals. But anyway, sorry, yeah. 731 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,040 Well, and if I remember right, that was one that was tied into 732 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,240 their like to Uma, their centralized Oracle, their their 733 00:40:35,240 --> 00:40:38,320 attempts at the polymarkets, attempts at decentralization are 734 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,120 frankly pathetic. But that's not that's not the 735 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:42,840 point. Yeah, not to mention the fact 736 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,320 that the people who are, you know, controlling the oracles 737 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,920 are betting in the markets. It's like, yeah, this is a mess. 738 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:54,000 Which which was the problem with Auger years ago back in like 739 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:55,520 2018. That was the first 740 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,800 cryptoanalysis article I ever wrote back when I was getting 741 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,360 into this back in like 2018 and had the same problem. 742 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,880 Is like eventually the resolution if you work through 743 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,240 the different levels that came down to who could like put up 744 00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:09,880 enough coins and hold out like against the penalties for long 745 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,800 enough to resolve the market because you can't financially 746 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,080 engineer everything. Sorry, I'm just feeling 747 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,160 despaired. Do you ever feel despair being a 748 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,120 crypto skeptic at this time? It's only because I've 749 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:26,480 completely lost my mind. I sometimes feel like I'm 750 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:32,320 shouting into the wind, like like I could document with like 751 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:36,120 a pretty high degree of certainty the insolvency of like 752 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,280 an exchange tied to one of the most important cryptocurrency 753 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,800 entrepreneurs. And everything just keeps 754 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:46,760 ticking along. You know, like there's the 755 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,600 market still feels so disconnected from like what 756 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,840 markets are supposed to be or how how any of this is supposed 757 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,200 to function. Do you ever have that feeling? 758 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,800 Yeah, I mean, I, I sometimes feel like the way that markets 759 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,600 are is what's shifted. You know, the fact that we're 760 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:08,560 seeing, you know, the meme, meme stocks and legitimization of 761 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,640 sports gambling and the deregulation of crypto. 762 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,280 You know, it all sort of is, is a part of this larger whole of, 763 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,880 you know, money. The, the, the markets are just 764 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:20,960 gambling now. Like we're just, it's all 765 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,320 betting now. There's no fun mentals. 766 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,680 You look at Tesla, you look at GameStop, you look at whatever, 767 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:32,560 and it's just kind of nonsense. But yeah, I mean, I definitely 768 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:37,360 feel a little crazy sometimes, especially when I think the big 769 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,560 thing really is it sort of depends who you're talking to, 770 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,720 right? Because you can talk to people 771 00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:45,000 in crypto and you can do, you know, sort of what you just 772 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:46,480 said. You can explain how something's 773 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,640 a scam and they'll just look at you and they'll be like, so 774 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,160 yeah, who cares? I can make money off of a scam. 775 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,000 Yeah. You know, And I had to, I had to 776 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,240 come to terms with that a long time ago. 777 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,840 You and I had that same like I had that exact same moment. 778 00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:04,000 I the way I put it to PJ vote was I said I'm going into a 779 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,840 casino and shouting at people at the slot machine and telling 780 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:08,680 them, don't you realize you're losing money? 781 00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:10,800 Yeah. Don't you know the odds? 782 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,000 Yeah, go away. Right. 783 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:15,320 Exactly. Yeah. 784 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,760 So like I, I kind of a long time ago had to sort of realize that, 785 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,360 you know, there's really no convincing somebody who is like 786 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,520 totally bought into the scam, but that doesn't mean that 787 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,640 there's no good that can be done. 788 00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:30,160 You know, there's a lot of people who don't understand 789 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,960 what's happening and who want to understand or at least 790 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:38,360 understand sort of pragmatically what's going on, you know, when 791 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,800 they're looking at it. And those people are often very 792 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,520 interested and can be moved. You know, they have, they just 793 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,920 want to know what's happening. They want to have, you know, 794 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:51,080 some understanding of it and and they are easy to reach I think. 795 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,080 Is that kind of so you feel like that's the purpose of of the 796 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,480 work that you you are doing? Absolutely, Yeah. 797 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,680 Okay. I mean, I am not writing to a 798 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:00,920 crypto audience. I certainly have people in 799 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,200 crypto who read my work and who appreciate my work, I think. 800 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:09,400 But I am not out there trying to deconvert the true believers. 801 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,000 I'm not out there trying to get Bitcoin maximalists to sell all 802 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,880 their Bitcoin. But, you know, I do think that 803 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,600 it is important for, you know, everyday people, whether or not 804 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,600 they want to put money into crypto, to understand what 805 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,880 happens in this sector, especially as it's becoming so 806 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,280 closely entangled with politics and, you know, the sort of 807 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,440 system of the world around us. It used to be that you could 808 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,960 ignore Bitcoin and it was fine. You know, you didn't have to 809 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:36,720 know what was happening. You didn't have to care. 810 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,400 Now, you know, if you are interested in the political 811 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,320 machinery of this country, you do sort of have to know what's 812 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:48,000 happening or what this stuff is or what this industry is. 813 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:49,880 And it affects finance in, in every. 814 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,680 It's an octopus now. I mean, like, it, it, it, it it 815 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,640 affects every and like every. Yeah, I mean, you're right. 816 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,320 Every American should at least understand it. 817 00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,800 That is that. I think that's a pretty fair 818 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,360 assessment. It also kind of is scary. 819 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,080 It is, but you know, I, I also sort of make this point fairly 820 00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,200 often, which is that you actually really don't need to 821 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,040 understand the technology that much. 822 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,480 You don't necessarily have to understand the financial 823 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,360 engineering, but I do think it's important to understand the 824 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,480 industry and the sort of power that it is manipulating and 825 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:26,360 wielding and the way that that sector interacts with the 826 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,600 broader financial system. I think that's the that's where 827 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,080 it's really important for people to understand. 828 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,880 And if they don't understand exactly how bitcoins are mined, 829 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:37,880 you know, then that's probably OK. 830 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,760 Like they can learn, sure. But like, that's really not 831 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,520 going to change their understanding of of, you know, 832 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,760 the, the sort of material impacts of crypto on the world. 833 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,360 But knowing, you know, why it's so important to people like 834 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:54,560 Donald Trump, why the industry is so powerful and what it's 835 00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:59,080 doing with that power and what the potential impacts are to the 836 00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:02,240 broader financial system and to people who maybe don't hold 837 00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:04,600 cryptocurrency at all and never plan to. 838 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:06,960 That's I think the really important thing. 839 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,080 And I think a lot of people don't understand that. 840 00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:12,000 And so that's what I've been really working to try to help 841 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,360 explain as much as possible. It's funny because I like I, you 842 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,960 know, like even the concept of stable coins, it's like, you 843 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,800 know, I understand what you're saying where it's like you don't 844 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,160 necessarily need to explain the tech, but then if you try to dig 845 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:28,280 into it at all, you kind of do, you know what I mean? 846 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,160 Just because it's like, it's like if I just say it's a dollar 847 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:35,240 derivative, I mean, that just isn't giving it credit for how 848 00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:38,480 fucking insane it is, right? But yeah, it isn't just a dollar 849 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:39,600 derivative. You know what I mean? 850 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:41,000 I. Should caveat what I said a 851 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,880 little bit, which is that like if I have 15 minutes of 852 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,960 somebody's time, I'm not going to spend it explaining to them 853 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,920 how bitcoins are mined or what stable coins really are. 854 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,800 You know, that is not the first, you know, that's not the 101 855 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:58,160 level material I see. You do obviously have to 856 00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:00,880 understand that stuff once you're getting deeper into it. 857 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,000 If you're talking to legislators, you know, or their 858 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,160 staff who are trying to regulate this stuff, then you do really 859 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,280 have to understand that, you know, if you're trying to 860 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,680 understand how some of these crazy financial derivatives work 861 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:16,360 and like, you know, what is crypto staking and why is that 862 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,840 allowed? You know, that type of thing, 863 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:20,680 you do have to get into the weeds of it. 864 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,360 But when it comes to like, you know, everyday people who are 865 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,080 just trying to understand what's going around, going on around 866 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,480 them, starting out with like, all right, let me explain a 867 00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,120 blockchain to you is like, it's just not the best use of either 868 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,680 of our team. That's a really good point. 869 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:39,160 Yeah, I. Mean got to start at the 870 00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:40,960 transaction level. Actually before we get to the 871 00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,480 transaction level, do you know what Shaw 256 is? 872 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:48,200 Okay, if you don't know what. But it does it almost. 873 00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,960 It does kind of spiral very quick like I. 874 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:51,920 Know. Sure, sure, sure. 875 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,240 I, I try, sometimes I just try even with, you know, I'll be 876 00:47:55,240 --> 00:47:57,280 talking to a neighbor or something about what I do and 877 00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,680 it's like, OK. I always hit the point in 878 00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:04,760 conversations where someone says something that's like subtly 879 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,600 wrong but directionally right and I need to decide I'm going 880 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,040 to just let them be subtly wrong but directionally. 881 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:14,600 Sniping or if. It's time to start going down 882 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,240 the rabbit. Hole I had a great conversation 883 00:48:17,240 --> 00:48:21,240 a couple of days ago with someone who is, I think 7 years 884 00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:26,360 old, who overheard me talking with their parents about some of 885 00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:28,120 the writing that I do. And they were like, what's 886 00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:29,240 cryptocurrency? See. 887 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,840 And I was like, oh boy. And so I said something like, 888 00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:37,560 it's, it's like Internet money. And they're like, but what is 889 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,480 it? And I was like, nothing really. 890 00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,320 It's, it's sort of made-up. And they're like, well, that's 891 00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:44,880 dumb I. Was like, what you got it, you 892 00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,560 get it, you're ready. You're you're better than half 893 00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,520 the people in Congress in terms. Of you're looking for a job. 894 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,160 Everyone reads Citation needed, I'll say that. 895 00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,960 Yeah, citation needed. You can find my words in 896 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,400 citation needed dot news and web 3 is going just great. 897 00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,920 Thank you for joining us. It was a fun chat and I'm so 898 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,440 glad that we have your endorsement for Cascoin. 899 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,800 So thank you. The one crypto I hold proudly.