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Welcome back everyone. 
I am Caspian Sea and I'm joined 

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as usual by my partner in crime.
Mr. Bennett Tomlin, how are you 

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today? 
I'm doing well. 

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Cass, how are you? 
I'm good. 

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We have a great guest. 
A return guest Rohan gray. 

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You have a million fantastic 
titles. 

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I will you know what I'll do? 
Is I'll record them after this. 

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Well, re-record the whole thing 
and true to my word. 

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Here I Am the embarrassed and 
Unprepared co-host of crypto 

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critics Corner Caspian, Sea to 
say that Rohan gray is the 

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assistant professor of law at 
Willamette University. 

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The research director of the 
digital fiat currency Institute,

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a consultant to the UN 
International. 

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Telecommunication Union, 's 
focus group on digital currency 

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and helped author. 
The e-cash ACT. 

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It's wonderful to have you here,
row on. 

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How, how are you today? 
Yeah, good. 

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Thanks for having me. 
I mean, it's exciting week, you 

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know, the realm of digital 
money. 

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So it is an exciting week and we
have you on specifically to talk

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about something quite exciting 
which is the e-cash bill that is

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being introduced that you helped
work on. 

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Yes. 
The electronic currency and 

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secure Hardware act which just 
perfectly spells e-cash. 

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So, you know, when you when you 
write enough bills, the acronym 

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really starts to matter a lot 
for you and I'm just really 

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happy. 
This one worked out. 

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I could, I think I've already 
won really, you know? 

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Well yeah, I mean let's talk 
about it so so Bennett I want 

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you to start this one out as 
usual. 

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You have you have some 
high-quality questions when it 

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comes to the intricacies of 
legislation like this. 

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So, go ahead and start us 
please. 

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Well, I mean, I think the 
easiest place for us to start 

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here, would just be for Rohan. 
Can you just give a brief 

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introduction to the objectives 
of the e-cash bill? 

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Yeah. 
So, uh, so the overarching 

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objective is to develop a Should
digital dollar the replicates 

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and maintains the privacy, and 
anonymity and decentralized, 

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processing features of physical 
cash to the greatest degree 

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possible. 
So we designed the bill to be 

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centered around the treasury 
rather than the Fed. 

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So it's explicitly. 
An intentionally not a CBD. 

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See the word CBC doesn't tell 
you really anything. 

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Other than its issued by the 
central bank and if there's one 

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thing that this is not, it's 
issued by the central bank, but 

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in contrast to most traditional 
banking in, Technologies. 

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The rely on a Central Banking 
intermediary, or a rely on a 

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commercial Bank intermediary. 
And then, that whole network, 

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has a central bank on the 
backend, or in contrast to a lot

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of crypto assets. 
That use a block chain or a 

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distributed Ledger. 
This involves no Ledger 

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whatsoever. 
So just like physical cash, you 

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issue the the token, it gets 
stored in a physical instrument 

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or a device and you make 
transfers by simply changing 

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possession or moving things. 
Clean those devices rather than 

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changing Ledger based balances. 
One thing you mentioned there is

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that it was very explicitly 
being issued by the treasury and

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not by the fed. 
And so I was, I was really 

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curious when I was reading the 
bill. 

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Why? 
That was the choice? 

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Why the treasury instead of the 
FED? 

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Yeah. 
Why are you using this language?

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Well, if you know, I think one 
of the problems is that we've 

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had this discourse now for going
on, I don't know a decade, maybe

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a bit longer about government 
digital currency. 

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A sort of almost around the same
time as Bitcoin people started 

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to really seriously talk about 
the government should be around 

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digital currency. 
But the at this point, at least 

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that discourse has almost become
completely centered around 

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models and Technologies and 
approaches where the central 

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bank is the central actor. 
In fact, you know, the Biden 

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executive order that just came 
out around crypto uses the term 

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CBC almost interchangeably with 
a digital dollar and as I said 

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before, that term doesn't 
actually tell you anything. 

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It doesn't tell you why it's 
issued. 

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It doesn't tell you how it's 
designed. 

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It doesn't tell you who He's 
going to use it. 

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The only thing it tells you is 
that it's issued by the central 

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bank, which if you're a central 
Banker is great for you because 

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you control the whole process, 
right? 

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You say I don't know what it's 
going to look like. 

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I haven't decided that yet. 
We're still looking at options 

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but the one thing we're in. 
Sure of is we're in charge. 

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I think it's going to be us 
who's going to be the driver. 

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See. 
But and this is where I have a 

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problem with that is that in the
very next breath. 

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The very next thing that comes 
out in those debates, all those 

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conversations is the central 
Bankers say well of course we do

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provide Retail Services well of 
course. 

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Course, we would have to make 
sure that anything we did had 

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the same know, your customer and
anti-money laundering rules that

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apply to every other account 
that we offer. 

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Of course, we probably want a 
two-tier system where, you know,

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our existing intermediaries 
provide the Last Mile Services. 

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So suddenly what started off as 
just a well, we should be in 

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charge becomes actual constraint
parameters on the design and 

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function. 
And if you look at physical cash

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it actually has very little to 
do with the bank account. 

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It doesn't A ledger as I said, 
uses Hardware rather than sort 

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of quote unquote software as its
Baseline kind of method of 

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validating, transactions and 
validating people's claims on 

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account balances. 
And perhaps, most importantly, 

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in the u.s. context, the FED 
does not issue any form of totem

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Federal Reserve notes in our 
pockets. 

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They had the Pharaohs name on 
them but they're printed by the 

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Bureau of Engraving and printing
which is in the treasury and 

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coins that we use every day are 
issued by the mint, which is 

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again in the treasury. 
And when you have your Stimulus 

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cards sent out. 
They are sent out from the 

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Bureau of the fiscal service in 
the treasury. 

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So if you're going to start from
an objective point of view, if 

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you hadn't had your brain worms 
from the FED, CBC discourse and 

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you were going to say, we want 
to issue a hardware secured 

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token-based form of money. 
That goes to retail actors and 

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can be held directly by them, 
which government agency is the 

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one to do that, the answers to 
treasury. 

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But so, you essentially are 
saying that you see the central 

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bank as swaying too much. 
Power, if you are to use that 

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terminology. 
And so by explicitly, using the 

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terminology that you're using, 
the context that you're using in

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the language that you're using, 
is to avoid that and rely on the

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treasury, which is not, as I 
guess, I'm wondering. 

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What is what's the difference 
there between the treasury and 

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the central Bankers? 
Well yeah, so the first thing 

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is, as I was just saying, you 
know, horses for courses, this 

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is designed to be pluralistic, 
it's not in competition with the

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CDC. 
It's not in its stead of a cvtc 

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you want to fet. 
Which I support you have it, you

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want postal banking which I 
support you have it. 

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What this does is say, we've 
always had different forms of 

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money. 
We've had accounts and tokens 

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for five thousand years. 
We don't need to choose between 

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them. 
In fact, we should be doing the 

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opposite and making sure that a 
digital dollar has every option 

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available, so that individual 
groups with different needs 

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different values. 
Different priorities will feel 

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like there's a form of a digital
dollar for them. 

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Most people in their wallets 
have a credit card or debit card

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and maybe some physical cash 
depending on How much in the 

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future you live and so this is 
really an attempt to slot into 

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that final category. 
It's to say that this has all of

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the benefits of cash privacy and
anonymity. 

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You don't need a third party to 
approve your payments, but it's 

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also got the risks of cash which
is if you lose your wallet, you 

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lose your device, you lose the 
money. 

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So people aren't going to be 
wholesale leaving the banking 

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system for this, but they are 
going to be using it the way 

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that we use cash today. 
Now, so that that's, that's the 

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sort of why does this fit in 
with With the cash instruments 

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rather than be account now, from
a political point of view. 

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Yeah, first of all Central 
Bankers are Bankers, you know, 

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I've been making this joke all 
around the way, but you asked a 

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bunch of Bankers, what they 
think technology can do, they'll

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say a better bank account, 
right? 

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You know, this is the old blind.
That's attributed to Henry. 

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For these said, if I ask the 
public, what they wanted, they 

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would have said a faster horse. 
Well Central Bankers, you know, 

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there is more in Heaven and 
Earth than there is in central, 

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Bankers philosophy, when it 
comes to digital money and 

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there's a reason why set Things 
around the world haven't really 

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paid much attention to this and 
that's because it has its 

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grounded in values. 
Different from the ones that 

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they have Central Bank is a lot 
of data. 

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They love analyzing data. 
They are firmly embedded in the 

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AML kyc regime, that applies to 
accounts that says, you have to 

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have identities because you, as 
an account manager, have 

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responsibilities to third-party 
actors. 

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And those third parties do not 
have a reasonable expectation of

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privacy because they're sharing 
their information with you as a 

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third party, so they're coming. 
From a world where there are 

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playing the legal framework, 
there are playing the technical 

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framework of accounts and that's
fine for account money. 

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But if we want to do something 
different, they're the wrong 

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people to to ask. 
They're also not going to be 

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committed to it. 
So if a spook or a cop comes to 

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them and says we need a back 
door. 

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Do you think the chair Powell is
going to stand up and fight for 

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civil liberties? 
He sort of secretly been an ACLU

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plant this entire time. 
I mean, I'm not I'm not 

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convinced so you know, the 
question of who's actually going

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to support this. 
Well, I'm not convinced that, 

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you know, former Federal Reserve
chair Janet Yellen. 

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Now secretary cherish, you do 
Janet Yellen is going to be 

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particularly interested either. 
But the thing about the treasury

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is, it works under the pleasure 
of the president of the 

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president politically 
accountable. 

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So this is a way to say this is 
a debate that should be being 

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had in public behind, you know, 
in front of everybody in the 

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town hall. 
If you don't like it, you have a

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right to have a voice. 
This isn't some technocratic 

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Central Banker, it's all 
independent. 

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If you want to even have 
anything to do. 

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Do with it, you're undermining 
Central Bank Independence, all 

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that stuff is irrelevant, and 
we're cutting it out from minute

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1 in this, in the conversation, 
that was one of the really 

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exciting things for me, when I 
was reading the bill is because 

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unlike the CBD, see proposals, 
which I've read which almost 

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entirely focused on like 
settlement between the banks and

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stuff like that because that's, 
that's what the feds doing all 

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the time. 
I don't even want to provide a 

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regular bank account this, they 
really wrong to only do 

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wholesale banking. 
That's the only Really feel 

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comfortable with yeah. 
And this was so clearly focused 

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on the end user and trying to 
emulate as much as possible. 

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The cash like experience for 
that end user. 

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00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,100
Do you think you can speak a 
little bit to how a system like 

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this would actually work? 
Because like what we've 

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established so far is that 
involves these secure devices. 

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It does not use a distributed 
Ledger like a blockchain and 

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that it can be used offline and 
that's a challenging. 

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00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,900
Set of requirements. 
Yeah, yes, you type. 

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00:10:32,900 --> 00:10:35,500
You know, so it also makes 
Little Ponies and just gives 

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them out to people every day. 
So, the first thing is that in, 

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this is a really important point
for crypto Advocates, I think to

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understand which is the 
conversation around, how to 

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design an effective 
decentralized. 

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00:10:47,300 --> 00:10:49,700
Crypto instrument is trying to 
solve two problems. 

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The first problem is the 
decentralized payment settlement

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storage your standard Payments 
Technology stuff. 

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The second problem, however, is 
monetary Theory, monetary We'll 

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00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,400
see how much the issue to who to
give it to under what conditions

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and the thing that Bitcoin and 
others have done is they've 

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combined those two. 
They've said we need a system 

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00:11:08,500 --> 00:11:11,900
where we don't trust any one 
person not only to process 

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transactions. 
But also to determine how much 

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tissue. 
Now, if you're a person that 

228
00:11:16,900 --> 00:11:20,100
doesn't believe in Democratic 
public money, okay? 

229
00:11:20,100 --> 00:11:22,900
You you probably won't like a 
version of a digital public 

230
00:11:22,900 --> 00:11:26,300
dollar, but if you accept that 
public money has a place, it 

231
00:11:26,300 --> 00:11:29,600
will continue to have a place. 
And the public cash is actually 

232
00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,000
Probably an important thing to 
preserve, even if you don't like

233
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:37,000
it, but only because if you want
private Monies to have privacy, 

234
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,200
you probably need to convince 
people that it's worth having 

235
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,900
privacy and money in general. 
And most people are going to 

236
00:11:41,900 --> 00:11:43,600
experience that with public 
money first. 

237
00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,700
So if we lose the battle over 
public cash, my viewers would go

238
00:11:46,700 --> 00:11:49,400
lose the battle over any privacy
in crypto as well. 

239
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:51,800
So even if you don't want to use
it, even if you don't like it, 

240
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,500
you probably want this thing to 
exist at be legal, so that 

241
00:11:55,500 --> 00:11:58,400
there's some cover for the 
things that you want to be legal

242
00:11:58,500 --> 00:12:01,100
to. 
But The problem is that because 

243
00:12:01,100 --> 00:12:03,700
in the 90s, when we were twice, 
seriously talking about how 

244
00:12:03,700 --> 00:12:05,900
we're secured options and that 
was, you know, before cell 

245
00:12:05,900 --> 00:12:08,600
phones before Web 2.0, all that 
stuff. 

246
00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,200
It was back when the only option
was prepaid cards and there was 

247
00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,200
serious efforts around that. 
The bank of Finland, did the 

248
00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,500
Avant card in England, they had 
the mondex card in Canada, in 

249
00:12:18,500 --> 00:12:20,900
the early 2000. 
They had, mint chip card, what 

250
00:12:20,900 --> 00:12:23,300
happened to those? 
Well, a lot of them fail because

251
00:12:23,300 --> 00:12:25,600
governments weren't really 
interested at the time and then 

252
00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:27,600
9/11 happened. 
And then the idea of having any 

253
00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,600
privacy went out the window for 
20 years. 

254
00:12:29,900 --> 00:12:32,600
So there it was a, it was a 
moment where a lot of crypto 

255
00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,100
Advocates said, well, nobody's 
picking up what you're putting 

256
00:12:35,100 --> 00:12:36,500
down. 
So we do move into a system 

257
00:12:36,500 --> 00:12:39,600
where we only use software and 
it we're going to issue a 

258
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,100
private money and so they're 
solving to technical problems or

259
00:12:43,100 --> 00:12:46,100
trying to at the same time and 
it leads you to stuff like proof

260
00:12:46,100 --> 00:12:48,600
of work or proof of stake and 
all of these questions, which 

261
00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,500
are very complicated. 
But if you have centralized 

262
00:12:51,500 --> 00:12:55,100
issuance, which public money 
already does then, all you need 

263
00:12:55,100 --> 00:12:58,100
to solve for is the 
decentralized payments, and 

264
00:12:58,100 --> 00:12:59,700
that's a lot easier because you 
can do it. 

265
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,600
Of the initial security and 
counterfeiting protection at the

266
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,700
point of issuance. 
And then all you're doing is 

267
00:13:05,700 --> 00:13:08,300
transferring that security 
instrument between actors. 

268
00:13:08,300 --> 00:13:11,000
Whereas, with crypto, you have 
to solve the problem of how to 

269
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,500
issue it as well in an 
untrustworthy way. 

270
00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,900
But to go question how it works,
there would be some sort of 

271
00:13:16,900 --> 00:13:20,000
offline or air-gapped or spill 
something like that. 

272
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:21,600
At the central bank at the 
treasury. 

273
00:13:21,700 --> 00:13:23,900
They would meet these in the 
same way as they mint coins or 

274
00:13:23,900 --> 00:13:26,700
notes, they would ship them out.
You would buy a prepaid card or 

275
00:13:26,700 --> 00:13:29,600
you would go to a bank and you 
would basically make the corner 

276
00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,500
withdrawal or you could even do 
it on an app on your phone, you 

277
00:13:32,500 --> 00:13:34,000
would withdraw the money from 
your bank account. 

278
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,900
It would be the equivalent of 
the bank, buying pallets of 

279
00:13:37,900 --> 00:13:40,700
physical currency that would buy
with their Reserves at the 

280
00:13:40,700 --> 00:13:43,700
central bank and that would be 
uploaded onto your device. 

281
00:13:43,708 --> 00:13:47,600
And that device would have some 
sort of trusted executing 

282
00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:52,000
environment or a physically 
unclimbable function, and you 

283
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,200
would then be able to 
communicate with any other 

284
00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,400
recognized Hardware device that 
could include prepaid cards and 

285
00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,100
other phones, and the idea would
be you Essentially asked that 

286
00:14:01,100 --> 00:14:03,400
device, you would do a handshake
and say, hey, do you have this 

287
00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:04,900
amount of money? 
They would say, yes. 

288
00:14:04,900 --> 00:14:06,700
They might not tell you how much
they have, but I would say we 

289
00:14:06,700 --> 00:14:09,200
have as much as you need. 
They'd say, okay, I want you to 

290
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,000
send it to me, they put your 
signature, their signature and 

291
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:16,700
it would go to the next device 
and the original device would 

292
00:14:16,700 --> 00:14:19,000
lose that signature. 
It would be destroyed and there 

293
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:20,900
would be a new signature that 
would come in. 

294
00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:23,500
That would be whatever the new 
balance is on that instrument. 

295
00:14:23,500 --> 00:14:26,100
So if you try to spend it to 
somewhere else it wouldn't exist

296
00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:29,000
anymore, it would show that that
other that other bucket 

297
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,900
equivalent. 
Value was no longer valid. 

298
00:14:31,900 --> 00:14:33,700
Now, that's not perfectly 
securely. 

299
00:14:33,700 --> 00:14:35,900
You can always crack Hardware, 
just like you can crack any 

300
00:14:35,900 --> 00:14:39,600
system, but there are two 
considerations that one is, we 

301
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,200
would put denominational caps on
these devices, may be like 

302
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:43,800
10,000. 
I didn't put a specific number 

303
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,000
in the bill because we didn't 
want that to be the fight and 

304
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:47,800
day one. 
That's going to be a political 

305
00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,300
question. 
But I will say, you know, as 

306
00:14:49,300 --> 00:14:53,400
high as possible. 
And so even if you do hack an 

307
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,800
individual device, you're maybe 
getting $5000 $10000. 

308
00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:58,200
You're not getting a hundred 
billion dollars. 

309
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,700
So if you want to be 
transferring you, Pablo, Escobar

310
00:15:00,700 --> 00:15:03,800
level money, you're still going 
to be having duffel bags worth 

311
00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:05,500
of stuff. 
It'll just be duffel bags worth 

312
00:15:05,500 --> 00:15:08,700
of prepaid cards or cell phones 
rather than paper money. 

313
00:15:08,700 --> 00:15:13,600
But the other aspect is that the
individual Hardware devices 

314
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:19,500
themselves are going to be 
something that you could 

315
00:15:19,500 --> 00:15:22,000
separately from the transaction 
validate. 

316
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,600
So there could be little kiosks 
all over the place, you tap the 

317
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,100
phone to see if any balances and
they could do a check with an 

318
00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:30,300
existing list of kind of Eight 
dollars. 

319
00:15:30,300 --> 00:15:33,200
So just like with physical 
currency, someone pays you 100 

320
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,100
dollar bill. 
You put it up to the light, you 

321
00:15:35,100 --> 00:15:37,600
run a pain over it, you have a 
backlight nowadays. 

322
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,800
There are all sorts of devices 
that can validate. 

323
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,900
You could have a system or an 
easy device that could validate 

324
00:15:44,900 --> 00:15:48,100
that the funds you are receiving
are, you know, still still 

325
00:15:48,100 --> 00:15:50,100
authorized. 
But that would be a separate 

326
00:15:50,100 --> 00:15:53,800
process to the transaction. 
You wouldn't be having to get 

327
00:15:53,900 --> 00:15:57,700
you know, third-party Uncle, Sam
or Banks green light to actually

328
00:15:57,700 --> 00:16:01,700
process the transaction itself. 
And any record of all of that 

329
00:16:01,700 --> 00:16:04,400
stuff would exist, only on the 
device, it wouldn't be, there 

330
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,200
wouldn't be some place in the 
cloud, you know. 

331
00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,200
It's very interesting to me 
because you have essentially 

332
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,300
answered one of my questions 
which was while I can understand

333
00:16:13,300 --> 00:16:14,600
that. 
Maybe the transactions are 

334
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,100
private. 
It appears as though any 

335
00:16:17,100 --> 00:16:21,100
physical whether it's a card or 
a physical Hardware, wallet, or 

336
00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:22,500
whatever you want to call it, 
right? 

337
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,300
That, that will have 
traceability. 

338
00:16:25,300 --> 00:16:27,900
Right? 
And I guess maybe there might be

339
00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:32,200
some concern concern about that.
Like, I guess here's, here's a, 

340
00:16:32,300 --> 00:16:34,400
I have a, I have a twenty dollar
bill right here. 

341
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,300
There's a serial number on it. 
So it is identifiable obviously.

342
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,100
But what I can do with this 20 
dollar bill now that it is in my

343
00:16:41,100 --> 00:16:44,000
wallet. 
Whether I'm kyc door, am Elder, 

344
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,400
whatever at a bank, is I can 
take this 20 dollar bill and for

345
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:52,300
instance, pay in a, in a legal 
immigrant to do something and 

346
00:16:52,300 --> 00:16:54,700
that doesn't have to be traced 
and that illegal immigrant now 

347
00:16:54,700 --> 00:16:58,800
has that dollar and or that 
twenty dollar bill and they can,

348
00:16:59,100 --> 00:17:00,700
they can use it. 
They see fit. 

349
00:17:00,900 --> 00:17:03,700
It doesn't seem like there's 
room for that kind of a 

350
00:17:03,700 --> 00:17:09,099
transaction in the e-cash ACT. 
Is that incorrect right? 

351
00:17:09,099 --> 00:17:10,000
Nothing. 
Yeah. 

352
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,300
They're they're they're 
absolutely is because you buy 

353
00:17:12,300 --> 00:17:14,599
the device, right? 
But you don't have to give a ml 

354
00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:16,099
K YC. 
When you buy the device, there 

355
00:17:16,099 --> 00:17:18,800
might be certain intermediaries 
that will ask for that, but I 

356
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:20,900
could imagine this being 
available at a convenience 

357
00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:24,700
store, next to the the transit 
cards, like you could buy this 

358
00:17:24,700 --> 00:17:27,099
at the postal service. 
Next to the prepaid debit cards 

359
00:17:27,099 --> 00:17:29,500
that they sell where you don't 
ask for permission, you could 

360
00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:32,800
buy A prepaid phone and it would
have this built into the phone 

361
00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,100
functionality and you know, you 
could buy the phone. 

362
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,400
The other thing is, you know, 
just because the initial dollars

363
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,000
have to be, just because certain
intermediaries might charge kyc 

364
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:44,500
rules. 
Once you have one of these 

365
00:17:44,500 --> 00:17:47,900
devices that the dollars that 
get sent to that device, don't 

366
00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:51,900
have any kyc so you could get a 
hundred dollars from your bank 

367
00:17:51,900 --> 00:17:54,300
account, the bank would know you
would you $100, but if you give 

368
00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:57,400
it to me, there's no record that
the hundred dollars on my a cash

369
00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,600
account came for the cash card 
came from yours. 

370
00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,400
Say so you know you use barcodes
there but coins don't have a 

371
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,900
barcode coins are the most 
private form of public money 

372
00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:09,300
also issued by the treasury and 
they don't have any bar code 

373
00:18:09,300 --> 00:18:12,600
whatsoever. 
So there is no record of who 

374
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,300
owned a coin before you did and 
there's no record of, you know, 

375
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,400
every every person who's ever 
owned a banknote except to the 

376
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,600
point of issuance in the point 
of redemption again. 

377
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,100
But if you had intermediaries 
who you know, provided this as a

378
00:18:25,100 --> 00:18:27,900
service, you could come in with 
physical cash, give it to them, 

379
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:29,600
they give you a card and that 
would be it. 

380
00:18:29,700 --> 00:18:32,500
It now that doesn't prevent 
other forms of good 

381
00:18:32,500 --> 00:18:34,700
old-fashioned, gumshoe, 
detective work, you know, 

382
00:18:34,700 --> 00:18:37,000
there's still surveillance 
cameras everywhere, your phone 

383
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,100
still got a million other 
surveillance devices on it. 

384
00:18:39,100 --> 00:18:42,400
If somebody, you know, hacks 
your phone and is logging every 

385
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,000
keystroke you're still going to 
be screwed, but it does mean 

386
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,600
that the money itself is dumb, 
you know, it's a dumb 

387
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,300
instrument. 
It's not, it's not calling to to

388
00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:55,800
Central Command and it's not 
it's not something where you 

389
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:57,900
have to have an identity to use 
it because that would defeat the

390
00:18:57,900 --> 00:18:59,400
point of it. 
Frankly, you know, this is one 

391
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:01,900
of the things You've seen with, 
with those prepaid cards, the 

392
00:19:01,900 --> 00:19:04,700
government sends out and things,
which is a lot of people aren't 

393
00:19:04,700 --> 00:19:07,300
trust them a because they're 
going to charge fees and be 

394
00:19:07,300 --> 00:19:09,900
because, you know, if you're 
undocumented or if you're a sex 

395
00:19:09,900 --> 00:19:11,900
worker or something, they're 
going to try to stop you from 

396
00:19:11,900 --> 00:19:14,600
using it, but being able to use 
your money however, you want. 

397
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,900
I think is a are pretty 
quintessential American value. 

398
00:19:16,900 --> 00:19:19,100
And dare, I say it is, but one 
of the best things about living 

399
00:19:19,100 --> 00:19:21,900
under capitalism is it's that 
whole Pretty Woman idea. 

400
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,900
You know, my money is good as 
yours if I can. 

401
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:26,900
You know, on the internet. 
Nobody knows you're a dog. 

402
00:19:27,100 --> 00:19:29,600
Well if I want to pay for 
something on the Internet then 

403
00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:33,600
Hopefully, nobody will deny it 
to me because of my race or 

404
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,400
gender or sexual preference or 
political lives. 

405
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,200
As long as my money is good and 
I think this is an attempt to 

406
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,100
preserve that feature as much as
possible. 

407
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,700
I remember when you came in here
before 4 episode 16 to talk 

408
00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:48,400
about the stable act, huge, you 
up like a quadrant of like 

409
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,700
public money versus private 
money and then privacy 

410
00:19:50,700 --> 00:19:53,800
respecting money versus non 
privacy, respecting money. 

411
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,500
And like at the time he said the
goal would be to try to get 

412
00:19:56,500 --> 00:19:59,600
something in the quadrant of 
both public. 

413
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:04,500
Guaranteed and privacy 
respecting and so six months. 

414
00:20:04,500 --> 00:20:08,700
Yeah, congratulations on getting
that bill introduced and you 

415
00:20:08,708 --> 00:20:10,200
were quite down on it at that 
point. 

416
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,400
If I remember correctly, I think
you, you did not think that that

417
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,500
was even a real possibility at 
the time. 

418
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,400
Yeah, I mean old pal powder. 
Congressman Lynch, who really 

419
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:19,600
took a leap of faith in this 
one. 

420
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,000
I mean, he's no use no radical. 
Progressive is a moderate. 

421
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,900
And, of course, we had receded, 
Talib, who came out with the ABC

422
00:20:24,900 --> 00:20:27,100
act, which sort of pointed in 
this Direction, with a sense of 

423
00:20:27,100 --> 00:20:29,600
Congress, but it was a 
relatively short and brief. 

424
00:20:29,700 --> 00:20:32,000
And this is Reese's really you 
know, in a chance to write the 

425
00:20:32,008 --> 00:20:34,500
whole thing that the best way 
that we could and Congressman 

426
00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:37,900
has been absolutely 100% 
supportive or all along the way.

427
00:20:38,100 --> 00:20:40,600
We just had the ACL u--'s, 
senior political strategist, 

428
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,100
come out and say that if we can 
only show digital dollar, it 

429
00:20:43,100 --> 00:20:45,600
should be this kind Jerry Brito 
from coin Center. 

430
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,900
Said, I'm not sure if we should 
issue a digital dollar but if we

431
00:20:47,900 --> 00:20:49,700
should that he cash Act is the 
best version. 

432
00:20:49,700 --> 00:20:53,700
I've seen people like Steven 
deal and Isabella Kaminsky, 

433
00:20:53,700 --> 00:20:57,100
who've been very critical of 
both crypto and one hand and of 

434
00:20:57,100 --> 00:21:00,200
cvtc's or the other and their 
surveillance capacity say This, 

435
00:21:00,500 --> 00:21:03,600
this looks legit, it checks out.
So I think, you know, I'm not 

436
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,300
saying we did it perfectly but I
think as far as an initial kind 

437
00:21:06,300 --> 00:21:09,100
of Salvo into this debate. 
Hopefully now finally, there is 

438
00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:13,200
a perspective in that kind of, 
you know, privacy pro-public 

439
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,400
quadrant. 
And the fact that we've had the 

440
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,400
reaction we've had, you know the
Wired Magazine article on this 

441
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,300
was really really fantastic. 
I think just shows how missing 

442
00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:24,600
this perspective has been in the
debates so far. 

443
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,900
It's been crypto Advocates 
saying you know, why do you hate

444
00:21:27,900 --> 00:21:31,300
freedom and then public money? 
Because saying you know, why do 

445
00:21:31,300 --> 00:21:34,200
you think that capitalism is 
good for the average person and 

446
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,400
that's what I'm talking past 
each other and and it's possible

447
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,100
to believe in public goods and 
believe in privacy and now we 

448
00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:44,100
finally have a kind of load 
stuff or what that would look 

449
00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:47,800
like in this conversation. 
Can you one of the questions 

450
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,000
that I have is about the Privacy
board? 

451
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,800
Can you kind of go over the 
Privacy board because it's just 

452
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,600
one, it's an interesting concept
but to I'd be interested to see 

453
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,200
how well that works in. 
Reality versus how it looks on 

454
00:22:01,208 --> 00:22:03,100
paper. 
Yeah, I mean, look, we didn't 

455
00:22:03,100 --> 00:22:05,500
give them the power to sort of 
override with the with a 

456
00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:07,800
supermajority vote, the whims of
the treasury or anything. 

457
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,200
This is really about the 
transparency side. 

458
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:11,900
You know. 
I think a lot of people say, do 

459
00:22:11,900 --> 00:22:13,800
you really trust the government 
to do this? 

460
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,200
You know, and of course I don't 
trust the government to do this.

461
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:18,600
I don't trust the government to 
anything. 

462
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,600
That's not why you have a 
government, you, you demand 

463
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:22,800
things of it and you hold it 
accountable. 

464
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:27,100
That's how power works. 
But it's the same government 

465
00:22:27,100 --> 00:22:29,400
that lies about feet, fisa 
courts, and mass surveillance, 

466
00:22:29,700 --> 00:22:30,600
Lots. 
Of course, I'm not going to just

467
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,300
take them at their word, but 
part of the thing to do here is 

468
00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:38,300
to give privacy Advocates a 
foothold in the institution. 

469
00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:42,200
And so those independent privacy
board members have a term that 

470
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,700
they can't be removed, except, 
you know, by the president. 

471
00:22:44,700 --> 00:22:48,300
They have to give a report about
it but also they have access to 

472
00:22:48,300 --> 00:22:51,100
all the internal materials they 
can write on the official 

473
00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:55,100
letterhead with budgets that 
they can control individually, 

474
00:22:55,100 --> 00:22:57,300
as well as collectively separate
from the treasury. 

475
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,800
And my hope would be that the 
appointment of people to those 

476
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:02,900
positions would be something 
that privacy Advocates would 

477
00:23:02,900 --> 00:23:05,600
take very seriously, you know if
you're a lawyer you care who 

478
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,700
gets on the Supreme Court, if 
you're an economist you care who

479
00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:11,500
gets on the FED board, if you're
a pro privacy person, hopefully 

480
00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:15,900
you care who gets on this 
committee and if it turns out 

481
00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:18,500
that they're lying and they're 
putting back doors into things 

482
00:23:18,500 --> 00:23:21,700
and all that kind of stuff, I 
would want those members of the 

483
00:23:21,700 --> 00:23:24,900
committee to blow the whistle 
and for people to use that as a 

484
00:23:24,908 --> 00:23:27,800
red flag to mobilize, not 
because I think that that's 

485
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,800
enough for because they think, 
That's the, what's one of the 

486
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,100
ways that you can can get a kind
of temperature? 

487
00:23:34,100 --> 00:23:36,500
Check about whether this thing 
is going off, the rails, from 

488
00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:38,900
what it's supposed to be versus 
what it's actually doing. 

489
00:23:39,100 --> 00:23:41,700
Returning the before, when we 
were talking about kind of the 

490
00:23:41,700 --> 00:23:46,200
different types of money, if 
this were to get past and become

491
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,300
a thing that was relatively 
broadly used like beyond the 

492
00:23:49,300 --> 00:23:53,000
pilot phase of this. 
What effect do you think it 

493
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,700
would have? 
And some of the other existing 

494
00:23:55,700 --> 00:23:58,600
forms of money. 
So like both the kind of pseudo,

495
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,000
private money of the Need 
transmitters like venmo and the 

496
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,900
more outright private money of 
like the stable coins and then 

497
00:24:04,900 --> 00:24:08,100
just payments processors like 
visa and stuff. 

498
00:24:08,100 --> 00:24:10,600
Yeah, I mean I right now I think
a lot of financial institutions 

499
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,100
had cash for two reasons. 
One is it's hard to profit off 

500
00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:17,300
it and be they can't gather data
of it. 

501
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,500
So there's very little to offer 
a private for-profit actor for 

502
00:24:20,500 --> 00:24:22,400
sort of being involved in his 
Public Service. 

503
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,600
It's almost like an easement you
know you don't really like the 

504
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,200
fact that your house has a 
pathway to the beach that other 

505
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,500
people use but you really can't 
find an explanation for why 

506
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,900
Ocean View our taxes the beach 
so I guess I guess, you know, I 

507
00:24:32,908 --> 00:24:35,100
have to let them walk on my 
land, you know, it's sort of 

508
00:24:35,100 --> 00:24:37,000
like that. 
I think the bank's know that 

509
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,700
they can't really say that 
people shouldn't be able to 

510
00:24:38,700 --> 00:24:40,600
access cache but if they could 
they would. 

511
00:24:41,300 --> 00:24:45,200
So in one respect, I think that 
the war against cash which has 

512
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,400
been waged for many years now by
banks by fintech companies by 

513
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,000
data companies and by 
governments is hard to win in 

514
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:53,900
part because cash just looks 
like it's quite. 

515
00:24:53,900 --> 00:24:56,200
It looks like it's old. 
Its looks like it's in the past.

516
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,700
I think it's really important 
but this allows us to keep The 

517
00:24:59,708 --> 00:25:03,100
spirit of cash on both sides of 
the digital divide. 

518
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,100
If you believe in cash is a 
concept, you can support 

519
00:25:06,100 --> 00:25:09,400
physical cash and this. 
So for example, the law that was

520
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,000
just passed in Philadelphia, 
requiring Merchants to accept 

521
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,600
physical cash. 
They can't go cashless because 

522
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,000
that was causing severe 
Financial inclusion concerns for

523
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:23,300
example or when people say they 
made up about cash being a 

524
00:25:23,300 --> 00:25:25,000
vector for covid. 
You know, the World Health 

525
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,200
Organization said there was no 
evidence that cash was actually 

526
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,400
a Victor for covert, but it was 
a good narrative that cash is 

527
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:30,900
Dirty. 
We're going to go cashless. 

528
00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:34,300
Well, if you had to switch to 
digital cash for a while, you 

529
00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:37,100
could still have all the 
benefits of privacy even if 

530
00:25:37,100 --> 00:25:39,400
we're having the debate about 
the cleanliness rather than 

531
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,700
saying, oh cash is dirty, I 
guess we all go into 

532
00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:44,400
surveillance money now but to 
the private question you're 

533
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,100
talking about, I think first of 
all, it will make a lot of 

534
00:25:47,100 --> 00:25:48,500
money. 
Transmitters may be less 

535
00:25:48,500 --> 00:25:51,300
attractive by comparison. 
What has been will offering? 

536
00:25:51,300 --> 00:25:53,200
I mean, I guess you get the 
option to share with your 

537
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,800
friends when you pay someone 
something, which I cannot 

538
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,300
believe people actually enjoy, 
but apparently, some people do. 

539
00:25:58,300 --> 00:26:01,300
So, maybe they'll still want to 
have the Money surveilled, it's 

540
00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:03,900
just Cash, Plus taking a photo 
up and putting on the Internet 

541
00:26:03,900 --> 00:26:05,500
or something. 
But then when it comes to 

542
00:26:05,500 --> 00:26:08,100
something like stable coins, you
know, on one hand, I want people

543
00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:11,000
using stable coins because it's 
the only kind of money, like, 

544
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,400
public money like instrument. 
They can use in certain 

545
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,600
contexts. 
So if you can use it, actual 

546
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,400
digital cash instrument, I think
it'll take the wind out of the 

547
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,000
sails of the stable, Queen 
industry to a large degree. 

548
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,900
But also to the extent that 
there are laws prohibiting 

549
00:26:24,900 --> 00:26:28,900
people from engaging in illicit 
activity, and and that stable 

550
00:26:28,900 --> 00:26:31,200
coins, allow you To get around. 
Those jurisdictional rules in 

551
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,800
your jurisdiction, physical 
cash, already, does that. 

552
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,700
As well, there are whole 
countries that use the u.s. 

553
00:26:35,700 --> 00:26:38,200
dollar, is their primary medium,
and that would be something they

554
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,200
could do as well. 
So, I think certainly, it allows

555
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,100
you to do money transmission in 
a cleaner crisper way. 

556
00:26:44,100 --> 00:26:48,000
And to give one basic example, 
that in the covid relief, we 

557
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,200
proposed using prepaid debit 
cards to get to people who 

558
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,700
didn't have a bank account, but 
we part of that was that we 

559
00:26:54,700 --> 00:26:57,000
propose to have an emergency 
responder call, that would go 

560
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,100
and knock on people's doors and 
actually put the money in their 

561
00:26:59,100 --> 00:27:01,000
hands. 
Because we recognize that it's 

562
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:02,500
not enough to just have a piece 
of technology. 

563
00:27:02,500 --> 00:27:04,800
You actually have to get people 
to be able to use it. 

564
00:27:04,900 --> 00:27:07,200
That was what the way that we 
dealt with the access problem, 

565
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,700
but the people who don't trust 
the banking system, a prepaid 

566
00:27:09,700 --> 00:27:12,400
debit card is still connected to
a bank account on the back, and 

567
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,800
it's just a numbered account 
that, but they could be shut 

568
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,100
down. 
That can keep a record of all 

569
00:27:16,100 --> 00:27:18,200
your transactions. 
All of that kind of stuff. 

570
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,100
If you want to donate it to 
political dissidents with your 

571
00:27:21,100 --> 00:27:23,400
prepaid debit card, and the 
government wanted to prosecute 

572
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,700
for that, they could find that 
information at that bank 

573
00:27:25,700 --> 00:27:27,600
account. 
So this is an attempt to really 

574
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,500
do what prepaid debit cards. 
Do what a venmo balance does, 

575
00:27:31,500 --> 00:27:34,900
but better, but the way that it 
should work, which is actually 

576
00:27:34,900 --> 00:27:39,700
cash, like, not account, like 
that said, there are reasons why

577
00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:42,100
as I mentioned before, you might
want to not put all your money 

578
00:27:42,100 --> 00:27:44,300
in this because it's risky. 
You were taking all the risk 

579
00:27:44,300 --> 00:27:46,900
yourself, just like most people 
don't want to run their own 

580
00:27:46,900 --> 00:27:50,800
email server because even though
you can do that, it sort of 

581
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,400
comes with additional 
complications. 

582
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,100
So I think that this is not 
going to get rid of 

583
00:27:55,100 --> 00:27:58,900
intermediated money in general, 
but it is going to take a chunk 

584
00:27:58,900 --> 00:28:02,900
out of them. 
For the purposes that they are 

585
00:28:02,900 --> 00:28:06,100
currently using that as the 
nearest approximation to cash, 

586
00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:09,700
this will be a much better 
approximation of cash and the 

587
00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:11,900
people for whom that's their 
primary goal will be likely to 

588
00:28:11,900 --> 00:28:14,700
use this. 
Instead, the timeline for this 

589
00:28:14,700 --> 00:28:18,500
seems either incredibly 
optimistic or maybe I'm not 

590
00:28:18,500 --> 00:28:20,600
giving the government enough 
credit. 

591
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,500
But I even for pilot programs 
like I'm seeing 90 days after 

592
00:28:24,500 --> 00:28:27,900
passage 180 days after passage. 
And I'm, I'm thinking to myself 

593
00:28:27,900 --> 00:28:32,100
like and I understand there's 
Options for for certain measures

594
00:28:32,100 --> 00:28:34,800
and stuff but it just feels 
incredibly optimistic. 

595
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,200
I'm wondering if the reason for 
that though is because you do 

596
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:44,100
feel as though Bitcoin, stable 
coins, anti-government sentiment

597
00:28:44,100 --> 00:28:48,800
anti-u, s-- dollar sentiment 
anti cash sentiment is getting 

598
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:53,400
stronger and stronger or if it's
just like a basic thing that 

599
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,100
you're just throwing in the law 
like that any law has to have. 

600
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,500
I think historically all good 
protests have the word now. 

601
00:28:59,700 --> 00:29:01,700
At the end of all of their 
posters when they're having 

602
00:29:01,700 --> 00:29:03,800
demands. 
And and I think, you know, 

603
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,900
Justice delayed is Justice 
denied. 

604
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,400
And frankly, when it comes to 
putting a particular number in, 

605
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:09,400
we were always going to be a 
key. 

606
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,800
If it was five years, people 
would say, well, five years is 

607
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,500
infinity and digital terms right
now. 

608
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,800
So we put it in to be two years 
and that kind of thing. 

609
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,000
And I think that's still a 
pretty long time. 

610
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,200
And, of course, you know, I'm an
academic you say, you'll deliver

611
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,100
something in three weeks, you 
deliver it in six months. 

612
00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:27,700
So I know, I don't expect them 
to necessarily keep to these 

613
00:29:27,700 --> 00:29:30,600
timelines, but you have to set 
an initial Expectation for them 

614
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,800
to fail to meet in some sense, 
but I think the reality is that.

615
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,300
Yeah, this is a, this is a 
fast-paced area where we do have

616
00:29:38,300 --> 00:29:40,200
to move quickly. 
The good news is and this is one

617
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:41,700
of the reasons I felt 
comfortable doing it. 

618
00:29:41,900 --> 00:29:44,700
Putting those timelines in, is 
that there are Technologies out 

619
00:29:44,700 --> 00:29:47,000
there, there are vendors, there 
are people working on this kind 

620
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,700
of stuff who can get started 
with proofs of concept and that 

621
00:29:49,700 --> 00:29:51,600
kind of thing. 
And, you know, my hope is that 

622
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,600
it'll take a while for this bill
to get past right? 

623
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,200
That doesn't happen overnight. 
If it's going to happen at all, 

624
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,100
in the meantime, the fact that 
this is even being Scoffs to the

625
00:30:00,108 --> 00:30:01,300
reaction. 
It's been received. 

626
00:30:01,300 --> 00:30:04,100
My hope is that it will be a 
kind of green light to 

627
00:30:04,100 --> 00:30:05,800
technologists. 
That this is an area. 

628
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,600
They should be spending more 
attention on than they have been

629
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,700
up until now. 
I mean, when's the last time you

630
00:30:09,700 --> 00:30:12,100
heard about any digital money 
project, that didn't involve a 

631
00:30:12,100 --> 00:30:15,400
bloody blockchain and now people
who may or entropy interested in

632
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,700
that kind of Technology, might 
know that there are sort of 

633
00:30:17,900 --> 00:30:21,100
actual interested parties on the
other side who might want to buy

634
00:30:21,100 --> 00:30:23,000
what they come up with and use 
it. 

635
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,300
So this could take six to 12 
months, 18 months to pass and 

636
00:30:26,300 --> 00:30:28,900
that gives people a time to do 
the development the tech but 

637
00:30:28,900 --> 00:30:30,800
also there aren't Companies that
have already tested this. 

638
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,600
In other countries that we've 
had prepaid cards for a long 

639
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,000
time. 
There are hardware-based trusted

640
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,700
executing environments on phones
that, you know, Google and visa 

641
00:30:39,700 --> 00:30:40,900
and others have already been 
looking at. 

642
00:30:40,900 --> 00:30:44,000
So I don't think that when it 
comes to testing this stuff, 

643
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,100
we're sort of starting 
completely from scratch, it's 

644
00:30:46,100 --> 00:30:48,100
more. 
A matter of show us what you've 

645
00:30:48,100 --> 00:30:50,800
got. 
And we'll look at the mall and 

646
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,500
then make a decision. 
It's really more about kind of 

647
00:30:54,100 --> 00:30:58,300
playing the field of vendors 
than it is about needing to 

648
00:30:58,300 --> 00:31:00,800
actually test the technology. 
You from day one, right? 

649
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,500
I mean, I don't think that 
there's any kind of issue maybe 

650
00:31:04,500 --> 00:31:07,200
there is in America. 
I don't know how technologically

651
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,600
advanced we are when it comes to
payment systems through phones 

652
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,300
and stuff, but I do know from my
time in China, when I was there 

653
00:31:13,300 --> 00:31:16,700
in, like, 2018 2019. 
They know you're a tourist. 

654
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,700
It's not about like the way you 
look. 

655
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,000
They know you're a tourist. 
If you use cash, that's how they

656
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,000
can tell. 
That's how they can tell what's 

657
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,800
going on. 
That's how they know if you 

658
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,000
don't have a Chinese bank 
account and if you're not Used 

659
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,400
to used to being there. 
You could speak perfect Mandarin

660
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,900
and if you pull out cash they're
like oh, where are you actually 

661
00:31:35,900 --> 00:31:41,200
from? 
So I wonder if you are cuz that 

662
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:46,000
is as tracked as you can, 
probably get is like a Chinese 

663
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,600
issued telephone with money on 
it from your Chinese bank 

664
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,200
account. 
I mean, I'm sure the Chinese 

665
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,100
Communist party is paying 
attention to every single 

666
00:31:55,100 --> 00:32:00,600
transaction. 
Yeah, I assume NSA short shrift.

667
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,000
They're doing their very best as
well. 

668
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,200
So so so, do you think I guess 
there? 

669
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,300
That's that's my where I'm 
coming from. 

670
00:32:07,300 --> 00:32:11,200
Here is like as quick as this 
could be implemented, I assume 

671
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,600
you want to take more time 
because you want to make sure 

672
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,300
that that isn't the 
implementation, right? 

673
00:32:16,500 --> 00:32:19,000
Yeah. 
So we directed the bill to use 

674
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,500
open source, software, and 
Hardware wherever possible. 

675
00:32:21,500 --> 00:32:23,800
And I think that's going to be a
huge part of the transparency 

676
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,800
along with the along with the 
monetary privacy board. 

677
00:32:27,300 --> 00:32:29,900
And and if, you know, if it's 
all behind closed, cause I think

678
00:32:29,900 --> 00:32:32,300
there's a very real risk of 
Falls the way of mint chip, 

679
00:32:32,300 --> 00:32:34,700
which was the Canadian Mint 
attempt to do a hardware secure 

680
00:32:34,700 --> 00:32:38,300
digital Dollar in the early 
2000s and they used proprietary 

681
00:32:38,300 --> 00:32:39,900
hardware and it just didn't it 
did. 

682
00:32:40,100 --> 00:32:42,700
There was too many risks 
associated with it but and and 

683
00:32:42,700 --> 00:32:44,400
this is sort of deeply ironic I 
think. 

684
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,300
But China actually has a 
prepaid, a reloadable 

685
00:32:47,300 --> 00:32:49,000
stored-value card version of its
digital. 

686
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,300
You on that actually does work 
offline and is Anonymous in very

687
00:32:52,300 --> 00:32:55,200
small denominations. 
Now, I don't know if I trusted 

688
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,100
it, certainly not open source 
and I don't know if if I 

689
00:32:58,108 --> 00:33:01,800
consider the denominational They
have to be sufficient, but God 

690
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:06,600
forbid they out outrun us on 
privacy and anonymity and that 

691
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,200
ends up becoming better than the
US dollar. 

692
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,300
I mean, you know, the US dollar 
abroad is a sort of as potent. 

693
00:33:13,300 --> 00:33:16,100
A symbol of American capitalism 
is there is, and if we don't 

694
00:33:16,100 --> 00:33:19,900
have a digital dollar, you know,
out there then it's going to 

695
00:33:19,908 --> 00:33:22,300
completely disrupt how people 
use the American dollar. 

696
00:33:22,300 --> 00:33:24,900
So unless someone's saying 
tomorrow we should try to, you 

697
00:33:24,900 --> 00:33:27,800
know, D dollar eyes, every 
country that's ever used, 

698
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,800
physical US currency. 
See which I don't think anyone 

699
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,700
actually wants him. 
If they might say they do for 

700
00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:37,000
optical purposes, we got going 
to want something that can be 

701
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,000
can be held by average people 
that easily. 

702
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,300
Now the text, as I said, I don't
think the technology is actually

703
00:33:42,300 --> 00:33:45,300
super hard to develop but making
it transparent and clear is 

704
00:33:45,300 --> 00:33:46,400
definitely going to be 
important. 

705
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,000
So I you know, would say the 
next step for people on the tech

706
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,500
side are interested is start you
know trying to work with people 

707
00:33:53,500 --> 00:33:58,200
who have access to White Label 
prepaid card technology Etc. 

708
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,800
And start getting some Stuff out
there that's open hardware specs

709
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,700
that you could manufacture it 
multiples places so you're not 

710
00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:09,300
going to be building Tech that's
dependent on one manufacturer or

711
00:34:09,300 --> 00:34:13,300
that you know if there is a blob
to try to create an open source 

712
00:34:13,300 --> 00:34:16,199
version of that particular part 
of the software Etc, as soon as 

713
00:34:16,199 --> 00:34:19,400
possible, as I said that the 
timelines are not as important 

714
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,100
as the Integrity of the project 
obviously, but if we do leave 

715
00:34:23,100 --> 00:34:26,600
this forever, it will be too 
late and people will have become

716
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,800
accustomed to using, you know, 
thank God. 

717
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,900
It's not going to A bloody 
Facebook's currency, right, but 

718
00:34:32,900 --> 00:34:35,400
but, but we're waiting, right? 
We're waiting for the network 

719
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,400
effect to hit. 
We're waiting for everybody to 

720
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,300
go. 
Well, I just use them then or I 

721
00:34:39,300 --> 00:34:42,800
just use Excel and that to be 
the thing that 15 years from now

722
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,100
just become synonymous with the 
act of pain and we want to we 

723
00:34:46,100 --> 00:34:48,500
want to make sure that it's not 
PayPal, it's not their MO and 

724
00:34:48,500 --> 00:34:52,500
it's not some dangerous stable 
coin and it's not a government 

725
00:34:52,500 --> 00:34:54,699
surveillance coin, you know, all
of those options. 

726
00:34:54,699 --> 00:34:56,400
I think it's much more likely 
that it's going to be some 

727
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,600
private sector one, because 
they're the ones that can move 

728
00:34:58,700 --> 00:35:01,100
fast while. 
Everybody is Jump, get you know,

729
00:35:01,100 --> 00:35:03,900
jamming the public sector from 
being able to act. 

730
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,500
But look, six months is enough, 
time to do all kinds of things. 

731
00:35:07,500 --> 00:35:09,400
If you look at the six months, 
after the Patriot act's, they 

732
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,200
built a surveillance State 
pretty damn quickly. 

733
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,800
So when the weather is a, will 
there's a way to act quickly 

734
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,200
and, you know, my favorite 
building that for a really long 

735
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,000
time though, give them credit 
there too. 

736
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,300
That's fairly an extension, you 
know, they added a whole new 

737
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,100
stepped out. 
But they went on a spending 

738
00:35:25,100 --> 00:35:26,900
spree vertical integration. 
Exactly. 

739
00:35:26,900 --> 00:35:28,800
Exactly. 
They went, they went National, 

740
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,200
they were reached. 
During actual but yeah, you 

741
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,400
know, if people said look the 
stakes the stakes of this big, 

742
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,200
the stakes are the future of 
privacy and transactional 

743
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:39,800
freedom. 
And we either go one way or we 

744
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,600
don't. 
And if we wait three years, 

745
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,300
we're fucked frankly. 
So what do we do? 

746
00:35:44,300 --> 00:35:46,900
You know, I don't I didn't make 
the timeline. 

747
00:35:46,900 --> 00:35:49,200
The timeline was there. 
That's just how fast this stuff 

748
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,400
moves. 
So either the government, you 

749
00:35:51,408 --> 00:35:53,700
know, picks up the slack and 
makes it work or it doesn't. 

750
00:35:53,700 --> 00:35:56,600
But the good news is and I had 
the opportunity to interview, 

751
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,300
the former mint director, Philip
deal when we were talking about 

752
00:35:59,500 --> 00:36:02,500
Trillion-dollar coin proposal 
but he was actually testifying 

753
00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:08,000
in 1995 saying that the mint 
should issue a stored value card

754
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,500
to replicate the features of 
coins. 

755
00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:12,400
Saying we are the only entity in
the government that cares about 

756
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,700
privacy. 
It should be us and I mean, talk

757
00:36:15,700 --> 00:36:18,500
about Back to the Future, but 
he's the kind of visionary 

758
00:36:18,500 --> 00:36:21,900
director of The Mint that got 
stuff done real quick. 

759
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,000
And I could imagine if we put 
the right person in charge of 

760
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,700
this program, who really had an 
axe to grind or something to 

761
00:36:27,700 --> 00:36:30,800
prove and we gave them enough. 
For autonomy that this timeline 

762
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:35,100
is do they just quickly want to 
say that to deal that if he's if

763
00:36:35,100 --> 00:36:38,500
he's somehow here's this podcast
he got me into coins and I am 

764
00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:42,900
unfortunately still 100% neck 
deep into coins. 

765
00:36:42,900 --> 00:36:46,300
I love the Canadian Mint and 
the, the u.s. man, I still have 

766
00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:50,300
my first coin that I bought in 
1999 and I have the sets from 

767
00:36:50,300 --> 00:36:53,900
1999 of the state quarters. 
I was obsessed. 

768
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,900
He loves that program. 
Yeah, and he's an example of a 

769
00:36:56,908 --> 00:37:01,200
bureaucrat who takes Pride And 
in making government work well 

770
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,200
and we're so not used to seeing 
those kinds of people used to 

771
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,200
seeing people that have got 
their, you know, their eyes on 

772
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,300
the watch, the one foot out the 
door, and they're waiting to 

773
00:37:08,300 --> 00:37:10,300
take a paycheck from some 
private company on the other 

774
00:37:10,300 --> 00:37:11,900
side. 
And their job is to stall. 

775
00:37:11,900 --> 00:37:15,800
Bad regulation for business. 
And to maybe do you know, that 

776
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,200
old Kamala Harris joke? 
We're going to provide 10,000 

777
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:19,700
dollars of debt. 
Forgiveness to someone that sets

778
00:37:19,700 --> 00:37:21,700
up a small business in a 
disadvantaged community 

779
00:37:21,700 --> 00:37:23,500
disadvantaged community for 
three years or whatever 

780
00:37:23,500 --> 00:37:25,300
bullshit. 
And the idea of just doing 

781
00:37:25,300 --> 00:37:27,800
something big and simple, and 
good. 

782
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,200
And taking credit is just 
Anathema. 

783
00:37:30,300 --> 00:37:33,200
But those people exist, we just 
have to empower them and put 

784
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,700
them in the right positions to 
actually do it. 

785
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,300
Yeah, well, he got a lifelong, a
lifelong supporter out of me. 

786
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,800
All it took was some silly 
quarters with the pictures on 

787
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,100
them. 
I mean I I still talk about 

788
00:37:46,100 --> 00:37:48,100
that. 
Yeah, Texas businessman is my 

789
00:37:48,100 --> 00:37:50,100
favorite public policy maker. 
The military space. 

790
00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:55,500
Go figure that not what people 
would have predicted. 

791
00:37:56,300 --> 00:37:58,000
Exactly. 
The point, the point is just the

792
00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:59,800
point is just, if you want 
someone like, Him. 

793
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,300
I don't imagine he'd say, oh, 
it's impossible, I can't do it. 

794
00:38:02,300 --> 00:38:04,200
It's a all right. 
I'll do my best to. 

795
00:38:04,207 --> 00:38:06,200
Let me get back to you if I need
a little bit more time, but, you

796
00:38:06,207 --> 00:38:08,800
know, we'll put pedal to the 
metal and that's the, that's the

797
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,100
mentality we need, you know, 
these crypto people who say, 

798
00:38:11,100 --> 00:38:12,300
well, what do you expect 
government? 

799
00:38:12,300 --> 00:38:14,200
Can't do anything. 
And then they turn around and 

800
00:38:14,207 --> 00:38:16,200
then they get upset that the 
government is corrupt and 

801
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,500
doesn't do anything. 
It's like yes, you get the 

802
00:38:18,500 --> 00:38:21,900
government that you expect have 
higher expectations, you know, 

803
00:38:21,900 --> 00:38:24,000
my kindergarten teacher had high
expectations. 

804
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,000
They also get mad when the 
government does two things. 

805
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,100
That's remembering every Clarity
things. 

806
00:38:30,300 --> 00:38:32,800
If we wanted was not the 
regulatory Clarity, we got that 

807
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:37,600
was a huge mistake, right? 
Asking that was a mistake. 

808
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:39,900
Yeah. 
One of the requirements in the 

809
00:38:39,900 --> 00:38:42,900
bill is that the e-cash be 
interoperable with the exams, 

810
00:38:42,900 --> 00:38:46,200
with existing financial 
institutions, is that just in 

811
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:50,000
the sense, like, you can go to 
your bank and deposit cash. 

812
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,200
So, if you go to your bank, you 
can deposit e-cash or is it like

813
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,200
a deeper integration than that 
deeper integration? 

814
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:57,300
But definitely that's a part of 
it. 

815
00:38:57,300 --> 00:38:59,800
The other part is thinking about
things like future, Of sale 

816
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,700
devices, we don't want people to
be developing Future Point of 

817
00:39:02,707 --> 00:39:06,400
Sale devices that explicitly 
exclude, this option for me, 

818
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,400
being able to be used and the 
same would be. 

819
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,900
For example, if you're going to 
develop a phone and create a 

820
00:39:10,908 --> 00:39:13,900
secure Enclave on the phone for 
private currency, to make sure 

821
00:39:13,900 --> 00:39:17,500
it has that option. 
But basically the idea is, is 

822
00:39:17,500 --> 00:39:21,000
that we want to and we want to 
make sure that that, you know, 

823
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,800
you go to a store or something. 
And it's credit checking or 

824
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:27,800
e-cash. 
We want that to be the choice. 

825
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,200
We want that to be the 
normalized. 

826
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,400
Choice. 
And the other part of it is, 

827
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,600
when you force the businesses to
do that, then businesses can 

828
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,300
turn around to the government 
and say, you're not providing 

829
00:39:36,300 --> 00:39:38,100
enough support, you forced me to
do that. 

830
00:39:38,100 --> 00:39:40,800
So, to give an example, in 
Australia, we have compulsory 

831
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,800
voting and it's not like, it's 
not like you get locked up, you 

832
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:45,600
know, you pay a seven dollar. 
Finally, you write a letter 

833
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:46,800
saying I'm sorry? 
I was busy. 

834
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,000
I was on the toilet that day 
didn't get to the voting booth 

835
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,500
they like oh that's fine. 
You know they're very relaxed 

836
00:39:51,500 --> 00:39:54,500
about actually enforcing your 
non-voting but the point of it 

837
00:39:54,500 --> 00:39:57,200
is to set the expectation that 
you're going to vote. 

838
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,300
And then also this is I think 
the Secondary point of 

839
00:40:00,300 --> 00:40:01,400
Americans. 
Don't think about because they 

840
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,500
just think about in terms of 
like individual can coercion is 

841
00:40:04,500 --> 00:40:07,500
that you then have to actually 
make a combinations on the 

842
00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:10,200
public policy side so that 
people can vote. 

843
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:12,800
You can't force him to vote or 
say they have devoted their not 

844
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,600
provide an accommodation. 
So we have a public holiday on 

845
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,400
Election Day. 
We have mandated time away from 

846
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,200
your employer etcetera. 
Etc. 

847
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:24,200
So if we have a system that says
you have to accept any cash 

848
00:40:24,300 --> 00:40:27,700
interoperability then, the 
government then also has a duty 

849
00:40:27,700 --> 00:40:29,300
to facilitate that 
interoperability. 

850
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,100
Our ability and that keeps the 
affirmative responsibility on 

851
00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:35,300
those with the power to actually
change things. 

852
00:40:35,500 --> 00:40:38,100
It's funny because it's 
reminding me of like actual 

853
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,900
important moments in American 
history. 

854
00:40:41,700 --> 00:40:43,400
Yeah. 
The great like Lincoln with the 

855
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,400
Greenback like, you know, like 
FDR floating the dollar like you

856
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,500
know, it doesn't even have to. 
It doesn't even have to be a 

857
00:40:49,508 --> 00:40:51,700
like, a financial thing. 
I'm like, I'm even thinking 

858
00:40:51,700 --> 00:40:55,800
about like other moments in like
whether it's fighting 

859
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,300
essentially, what you're 
fighting for his privacy in a 

860
00:40:58,308 --> 00:41:01,600
new age and I That that is a 
valiant effort and you're 

861
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,200
fighting for it in a public way 
as opposed to a private way. 

862
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,300
Yeah I mean a lot of the debates
around you know should we even 

863
00:41:08,300 --> 00:41:10,300
have cash? 
It'll what if people use cash 

864
00:41:10,300 --> 00:41:13,400
for bad things are the same 
debates we had about the 

865
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,200
internet itself, you know, 
aren't we going to use the 

866
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,300
internet? 
And and frankly it's the same 

867
00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:19,300
debates we had back in the 
enlightened about whether or not

868
00:41:19,300 --> 00:41:21,600
people should be able to read 
and have a piece of paper that 

869
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:22,900
they can access to. 
Right? 

870
00:41:22,900 --> 00:41:25,500
And so I think it really is that
fundamental and one of the 

871
00:41:25,500 --> 00:41:28,000
things that's interesting is 
that this is very much picking 

872
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:29,200
up a conversation that really 
true. 

873
00:41:29,300 --> 00:41:32,200
Old off in the late 90s but the 
reason that it Trail off there 

874
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,500
was the Patriot Act was these 
other things but also that was 

875
00:41:35,500 --> 00:41:38,500
the last time we were talking 
about sort of the bare bones of 

876
00:41:38,508 --> 00:41:40,300
the internet and what he wanted 
to look like it was the 

877
00:41:40,300 --> 00:41:44,100
Telecommunications Act of 96 
etcetera and I think one of the 

878
00:41:44,100 --> 00:41:48,100
things that we failed there was,
we failed to ensure that the 

879
00:41:48,100 --> 00:41:52,200
finance layer was consistent 
with the principles of an open 

880
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,100
internet. 
So you can create, you know, 

881
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,800
peer to peer nodes, all that 
stuff. 

882
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,600
But if you have to pay because 
everybody, everyone ABS 

883
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,600
material, right? 
Even businesses, even websites 

884
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,800
have to pay for the electricity.
If you have to pay money to run 

885
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,600
your internet thing, then if the
money is centralized, then 

886
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,100
that's where I'll get you. 
And I think this was this was a 

887
00:42:13,100 --> 00:42:16,400
huge failure of the internet 
Freedom Movement to not put cash

888
00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:18,700
sort of front and center as a 
policy priority. 

889
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,400
And then when they did fail to 
convince governments in the 90s,

890
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,000
the fact that they kind of 
turned to private monies, I 

891
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,000
think was a huge error. 
What we needed was you know, 

892
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,900
more mass In the, the, the 
cypherpunks should have allied 

893
00:42:31,900 --> 00:42:34,900
with progressives and labor 
unions and all those people that

894
00:42:34,900 --> 00:42:36,900
God forbid. 
It's the messy politics that you

895
00:42:36,900 --> 00:42:38,800
can't fix by writing code in 
your bedroom. 

896
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,500
But it does. 
It is what actually gets you 

897
00:42:41,500 --> 00:42:44,400
things like a 40 hour work week 
or the right against 

898
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:48,300
self-incrimination or you know, 
holds those bastard cops 

899
00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:49,800
accountable when they beat 
people to death. 

900
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,200
That's that's what actually 
changes things is mass politics 

901
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:57,300
and this is an attempt to bring 
monetary privacy you know into a

902
00:42:57,300 --> 00:43:00,200
realm of mass politics and away 
from a realm of Financial 

903
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,500
grifters and Libertarians who 
think their freedom fighters. 

904
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,100
I will say that this is the only
piece of legislation. 

905
00:43:07,100 --> 00:43:10,400
I've read, well, reading it 
where it got like actually 

906
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:16,600
excited because because it is 
like such an attempt to avoid 

907
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,500
the self-fulfilling prophecy of 
claiming government can't act, 

908
00:43:20,500 --> 00:43:22,700
right? 
It's, it's an attempt to do an 

909
00:43:22,700 --> 00:43:26,400
important thing in a big way 
that can potentially help 

910
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,200
people. 
And clearly like written with 

911
00:43:29,300 --> 00:43:31,900
With care and with an 
understanding of what would be 

912
00:43:31,900 --> 00:43:33,500
necessary to actually pull it 
off. 

913
00:43:33,700 --> 00:43:37,000
And so like, that's why I was, I
was extraordinarily gratified 

914
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,800
when I saw the open source parts
of the bill because I think if 

915
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,100
it had ended up being closed 
Source, it would have been 

916
00:43:43,100 --> 00:43:46,800
immediately DOA because you 
can't actually believe in the 

917
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:48,800
Privacy. 
If you can't verify it, if no 

918
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,300
one can verify it, right? 
And so in order for to truly be 

919
00:43:51,300 --> 00:43:55,200
private, adad to be open and it 
was it was just gratifying to 

920
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,700
see the members of the House who
came forward to sponsor it like 

921
00:43:58,700 --> 00:44:00,900
being willing. 
Stand behind that principle. 

922
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,600
Yeah, well, my old law professor
happened when you helped draft. 

923
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,100
The GPL license with Richard. 
Stallman, you know, he probably 

924
00:44:06,100 --> 00:44:08,200
yell at me and say, why didn't 
you call it free software? 

925
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,500
You know, open source is already
a compromise and I think he's 

926
00:44:10,500 --> 00:44:13,200
right on that. 
But II think, if I read the word

927
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,700
free, their people would get 
very confused and think they 

928
00:44:15,700 --> 00:44:17,700
meant free as in free beer, not 
free as in Freedom. 

929
00:44:17,700 --> 00:44:20,400
So, you know, for those 
listening out there who are the 

930
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,000
kind of people that say it's 
canoe not Linux and it's free 

931
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:24,900
software. 
Not open source, you're right? 

932
00:44:24,900 --> 00:44:27,900
And I'm sorry and you know, I 
that's a legitimate criticism 

933
00:44:27,900 --> 00:44:31,800
but hopefully I pissed off the 
right people on the other side 

934
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:33,400
that you're still consider me on
team. 

935
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,800
So right now I'm just thinking 
about Richard stallman. 

936
00:44:37,300 --> 00:44:39,700
Yeah, you know, and I have a lot
of respect for the canoe Tyler 

937
00:44:39,700 --> 00:44:43,000
program, which was an attempt to
provide a kind of, you know, 

938
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,000
free software answer to this. 
But they made a compromise with 

939
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,800
their technology that was 
asymmetrically Anonymous. 

940
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,300
It was Anonymous for the payer, 
not for the payee. 

941
00:44:51,300 --> 00:44:54,700
And the idea was that you would 
sort of Still Force Merchants to

942
00:44:54,700 --> 00:44:57,100
have to record transactions. 
So you could monitor it for tax 

943
00:44:57,100 --> 00:45:00,800
purposes and I understand that. 
- but with respect to them, this

944
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,200
is where I think. 
Technology is playing monetary 

945
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,100
theorists is probably not. 
You know, I am willing to own 

946
00:45:06,100 --> 00:45:09,800
cash, being symmetrically 
anonymous and to say the lawyers

947
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,500
can monitor and deal with the 
risks of tax fraud and things on

948
00:45:13,500 --> 00:45:17,300
the back end with other ways and
that it's more important at this

949
00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:19,400
stage to have a digital cash 
instrument. 

950
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,900
That works like cash than it is 
to preemptively bacon 

951
00:45:23,900 --> 00:45:26,200
compromises with tax collectors 
into that instrument. 

952
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,800
At this point, I consider this 
to be a kind of small C 

953
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,400
conservative defense of cash, 
like freedoms. 

954
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,000
And that what we want to do is 
preserve as many of them as 

955
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,500
possible. 
We kind of, we're turning into a

956
00:45:36,500 --> 00:45:38,500
Bend. 
We're doing a hard turn into the

957
00:45:38,500 --> 00:45:41,300
digital realm and we got to try 
and keep this car like within 

958
00:45:41,300 --> 00:45:43,400
the lines of the road as much as
possible. 

959
00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:46,800
So maybe they'll be situations 
in the future Etc, where there 

960
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:48,200
might be additional things when 
you think of it. 

961
00:45:48,207 --> 00:45:52,300
At this point, the goal is to 
not let this transition destroy 

962
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,700
the privacy of cash and if 
someone wants to make an 

963
00:45:54,700 --> 00:45:56,900
argument for why, when you get 
rid of one little thing fine, 

964
00:45:56,900 --> 00:45:59,700
but they should be making that 
affirmatively and The gene that 

965
00:45:59,700 --> 00:46:02,000
they getting rid of something 
that we've enjoyed for thousands

966
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,500
of years. 
I think, I think the end of cash

967
00:46:04,500 --> 00:46:07,900
is the extreme radical position.
Not protecting it into the 

968
00:46:07,900 --> 00:46:09,700
digital world. 
That's something we were 

969
00:46:09,700 --> 00:46:12,700
discussing like two episodes ago
and we had Josh Cincinnati on is

970
00:46:12,700 --> 00:46:14,500
that? 
That cash is kind of like the 

971
00:46:14,500 --> 00:46:17,900
only remaining broadly 
acceptable, private currency and

972
00:46:17,900 --> 00:46:20,100
that the further gets pushed to 
the periphery. 

973
00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:24,100
The more you have to accept that
like, your transactions end up 

974
00:46:24,100 --> 00:46:26,300
being monitored and the 
government. 

975
00:46:26,300 --> 00:46:29,100
Yes, ends up learning all that 
information about you, but so, 

976
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:33,600
Does the credit unions and the 
artery the advi-- targeting 

977
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,900
agencies and anyone else who can
afford to buy it. 

978
00:46:36,900 --> 00:46:39,500
And that's right. 
And and and you're only as 

979
00:46:39,500 --> 00:46:41,600
secure as the database, the 
government has and we've seen 

980
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,200
this already with ADD hop, they 
say first, we'll get all of your

981
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,600
data and somehow will store it 
securely and you're like well 

982
00:46:47,700 --> 00:46:50,400
I'm not sure about that side of 
things and frankly you know it's

983
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,800
it's like the what is it? 
The Kobayashi Maru, the only way

984
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,300
to win is not to play, right? 
The only way to win when it 

985
00:46:56,308 --> 00:46:59,400
comes to Safe data. 
Practices is to not collect He 

986
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,000
data, unless you absolutely have
to. 

987
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,800
And I think this is the only 
model that is really trying to 

988
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,800
embrace that principle of data 
minimization from day one. 

989
00:47:08,100 --> 00:47:11,200
What a way to end it with a. 
Well the way I remember it, a 

990
00:47:11,207 --> 00:47:14,300
quote from war games, maybe it's
more games. 

991
00:47:14,300 --> 00:47:15,900
Thank you. 
I know, I think Kobayashi here 

992
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,800
you just have to be William 
Shatner and then you can win but

993
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,800
yeah, but yeah. 
But yeah, what a way to end it. 

994
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,800
I think that is, it makes sense.
That, here we go. 

995
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,300
We're ending it with the, with 
the war games smoke. 

996
00:47:28,300 --> 00:47:32,500
But I hope that At this, get 
some legs and, you know, makes 

997
00:47:32,500 --> 00:47:34,100
it through. 
I mean, what are what are we are

998
00:47:34,100 --> 00:47:36,100
we talking good odds? 
What are you thinking? 

999
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,500
Well I you know, I think, I 
think the National Security 

1000
00:47:38,500 --> 00:47:41,600
State is a formidable enemy and 
I think there are formidable 

1001
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:44,100
enemy within the Democratic 
party as well as across the 

1002
00:47:44,100 --> 00:47:45,400
aisle. 
And I think, you know, there is 

1003
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,500
a chance that this is going to 
have a cross-cutting coalition, 

1004
00:47:48,500 --> 00:47:51,400
you know, the people like Tom 
emmer and Warren Davidson and 

1005
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,300
Hollingsworth. 
And I was, I think, should in 

1006
00:47:53,300 --> 00:47:55,800
theory be supportive of this 
given that other statements. 

1007
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,100
Now, I have, I am long past 
being shocked, if it turns out, 

1008
00:47:59,300 --> 00:48:01,400
It's just hate government more 
than they like freedom and 

1009
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:03,800
privacy, but at least given 
their statements. 

1010
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,300
Now in opposition to a cbgc. 
The thing that they say they've 

1011
00:48:07,300 --> 00:48:09,600
wanted is exactly what we're 
trying to do with this bill and 

1012
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,500
that would hopefully be some 
cause for an alliance there. 

1013
00:48:13,100 --> 00:48:16,000
But I do see this, you know, 
Crosscut a lot along different 

1014
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:17,400
lines. 
I mean, we spoke to people the 

1015
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,600
ACLU and they haven't taken a 
position on money in years 

1016
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,300
because they didn't really know 
what to what position to take. 

1017
00:48:23,300 --> 00:48:26,200
But the minute we proposed this 
them like, oh, this makes a lot 

1018
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:27,700
of sense. 
Thank you for doing this. 

1019
00:48:27,700 --> 00:48:30,900
And I don't know. 
How many politicians want to get

1020
00:48:30,900 --> 00:48:31,800
in? 
On the Democratic side? 

1021
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,100
Want to get on the wrong side, 
the ACLU and as I said, coin 

1022
00:48:34,100 --> 00:48:36,800
Center is out there saying, we 
don't sure we want any digital 

1023
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:38,900
currency, but if Government 
digital currency, but if we do 

1024
00:48:38,900 --> 00:48:40,100
have one, it should look like 
this. 

1025
00:48:40,100 --> 00:48:44,400
So compared to surveillance 
coin, you know, this is 

1026
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,700
hopefully an option that 
actually has a legitimate 

1027
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,000
interest base. 
Now, again, the forces on the 

1028
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,000
other side of formidable, I 
would never claim they're not, 

1029
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,700
but this isn't simply a kind of 
far-left thing. 

1030
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,400
It isn't simply a blue versus 
red thing and it's not Been 

1031
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:01,300
really a top versus bottom 
thing. 

1032
00:49:01,300 --> 00:49:04,900
In the sense that there are a 
lot of reasons why, you know, 

1033
00:49:04,900 --> 00:49:06,800
Elites and others might want to 
care about this. 

1034
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,800
There's the CIA and was the one 
that invented tour for God's 

1035
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,900
sake. 
So it's not that there aren't 

1036
00:49:11,900 --> 00:49:14,000
legitimate. 
Use cases for privacy amongst 

1037
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,900
the leads, as well as look, the 
holy polloi, but I think it is, 

1038
00:49:16,900 --> 00:49:20,200
it is going to be interesting to
see, you know, who ends up 

1039
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,100
either thinking that it's more 
important to have, you know, the

1040
00:49:23,100 --> 00:49:25,800
ability to catch the bad guys, 
and to protect the good guys won

1041
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,900
and to that, they hate cryptos. 
So Much that anything that 

1042
00:49:29,900 --> 00:49:32,800
sounds like it's sort of quote 
unquote, promoting dark money is

1043
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,300
is too much of a handout to 
crypto and they would rather 

1044
00:49:35,300 --> 00:49:38,000
kill cash if it means being able
to kill cryptos. 

1045
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,000
Well, I hope I didn't. 
Those are going to be the 

1046
00:49:40,008 --> 00:49:43,900
Coalition in opposition to this 
but hopefully, as I said, even 

1047
00:49:43,900 --> 00:49:46,300
some crypto people who might not
care that much about public, 

1048
00:49:46,300 --> 00:49:49,900
money can hold their nose and 
support this because it's part 

1049
00:49:49,900 --> 00:49:52,100
of a larger movement to protect 
values that they care about. 

1050
00:49:52,100 --> 00:49:55,400
And the protecting those values 
in general will have benefits 

1051
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,200
for the things that they 
actually do care about. 

1052
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:01,000
Well, thank you for joining us. 
For on what a another 

1053
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,800
educational and informative 
episode with you. 

1054
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,800
And I hope hope everybody takes 
a look at the bill, the act and 

1055
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:11,000
decides how they feel about it 
and if they think they can make 

1056
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:15,700
it better to voice that, but I 
appreciate it and I think Ben 

1057
00:50:15,700 --> 00:50:18,700
and I are both excited to see 
this and have you on so thank 

1058
00:50:18,700 --> 00:50:19,700
you. 
Yeah, it's a pleasure. 

1059
00:50:19,700 --> 00:50:21,100
Thanks. 
As always for thoughtful 

1060
00:50:21,100 --> 00:50:24,700
engagement, appreciate it, 
another great episode of crypto 

1061
00:50:24,700 --> 00:50:27,900
critics Corner. 
This time featuring Rohan gray. 

1062
00:50:28,100 --> 00:50:30,200
I want to thank Thank you for 
listening. 

1063
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,200
Hopefully you enjoyed it. 
Go ahead and hit the rating or 

1064
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,500
review button on, whatever 
podcasting platform you're 

1065
00:50:36,500 --> 00:50:39,000
listening on. 
And while I'm grateful that 

1066
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,000
Bennett decided not to cancel 
the show, I do have to let you 

1067
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:46,400
know that Bennett Tomlin decided
to fire me given my criminal 

1068
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,000
background. 
So I guess this will be my last 

1069
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,500
week with crypto critics corner,
you will be joined by Bennett 

1070
00:50:51,500 --> 00:50:55,100
Tomlin next week and a new host 
rumor has it that it's going to 

1071
00:50:55,107 --> 00:50:57,200
be just in son. 
Thanks for listening for all 

1072
00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:59,700
this time, everyone. 
Sorry, this is how it ends.