1 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,200 Welcome back everyone. I am Cass PNC. 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:10,800 I'm joined as usual by my partner in crime, Mr. Bennett 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:11,880 Tomlin. How are you today? 4 00:00:12,120 --> 00:00:13,560 I'm doing pretty well. How are you, Cass? 5 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,440 I'm good. We're joined by a special guest, 6 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,760 investigative journalist Vincent Wu, based out of the Bay Area. 7 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,800 How are you? I'm great, nice to finally be on 8 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:28,280 the pod I've tried for so long. I think it's really fun to have 9 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,439 you because we're talking about a topic that I am particularly 10 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,000 always angry about and you're here to at least a little bit 11 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,480 defend, and I appreciate that. I don't usually even plug any of 12 00:00:39,480 --> 00:00:42,160 our guest stuff. I let them do the plugging for 13 00:00:42,160 --> 00:00:46,840 their own work, but Vincent recently did a documentary 14 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:52,240 interview of a mayoral candidate in San Francisco, Honest 15 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:54,520 Charlie, who is just, I guess, honest. 16 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,200 I don't know what to call him. He's the future of San Francisco 17 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,520 politics is what I call. He's our future mayor. 18 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,520 He's the president of San Francisco politics. 19 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,560 Assuming he gets on the ballot. We're here to talk about a a 20 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:12,080 topic closer to my heart, which is effective altruism, which is 21 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:16,720 quite unpopular, I'll say nowadays in general, and 22 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:21,280 effective accelerationism, which is far more popular and which I 23 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,200 also not a huge fan of. I actually think it would be 24 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,800 great to start with you, Vincent, and let you kind of 25 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:31,360 give me an idea for why I shouldn't have this feeling 26 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:36,160 about EA or E accelerationism. I think your feelings. 27 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,520 About EAC are probably totally justified. 28 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,920 I sometimes describe myself as like the last centrist defender 29 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,520 of EA. There's actually probably a ton 30 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:47,440 of them. I don't know. 31 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:49,960 But like I like to say it because people, I think what's 32 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:54,520 striking to me is how deeply people have become negatively 33 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,520 polarized against EA coming from my world. 34 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,960 Like so one thing that I do is I attempt to convince people to 35 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,040 donate money to like A5O1C3, right? 36 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,400 Like we work on social issues around the Bay Area especially. 37 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,480 So I'm often trying to get people to donate money to 38 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,360 advance the cause of like building housing in the Bay 39 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,120 Area. And I try to, I have to use all 40 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:21,200 these tricks to, to engender like sympathy in the mind of a 41 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,240 potential donor. And it's usually only after like 42 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,000 a really long period of time, like a social campaign 43 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,560 effectively that people feel strongly enough about like any 44 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,400 individual cause to donate. And, and this is across the 45 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,520 entire domain of philanthropy, right? 46 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,440 Like, this isn't just just me. Like there are entire fleets of 47 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,800 people whose job it is to, like, try to keep the spirit of the 48 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:45,600 fight alive in the mind of a donor. 49 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,160 We'll send you 100 emails. We'll call you over and over 50 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:50,680 again. We'll get your friends to call 51 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:51,800 you. Like, we'll do whatever it 52 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,120 takes. And it's like pulling teeth, you 53 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,520 know what I mean? And I understand, right? 54 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,200 Like it. It's not like I begrudge the 55 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,520 people who aren't necessarily like, you know, leaping at the 56 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:07,160 opportunity to give us money. Like their skepticism may be 57 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,480 well earned. But I do have some admiration 58 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,120 for any social movement where the participants of that 59 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:19,360 movement self select to donating money to what they see as a 60 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,520 worthy cause, like in the case of EAI mean. 61 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,440 It's typically like what malaria Nets That's like to me, that's 62 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,680 completely. Sometimes it's malaria Nets. 63 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:30,160 Come on now. I mean. 64 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,800 I mean. Plenty of other ridiculous ideas 65 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:37,000 that they have that they think need to be defended and worked 66 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,800 on constantly. I think AGI was a big one for 67 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,320 them. And I also think that we've 68 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,360 discussed EAA couple times. A big part of my issue with it 69 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,680 is that it pushes back the idea that you're going to be giving, 70 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,560 that you don't give today, you give tomorrow or the next day 71 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:57,160 after your earning power has increased, like you've 72 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:59,440 accumulated wealth, right? I understand. 73 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,440 I, I think it builds more urgency for giving than the 74 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,960 alternative, the default, the default you have to understand 75 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,600 like 90 plus percent of people are giving nothing. 76 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:12,280 You know, like the idea, even the baby step of that you have 77 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,760 some social obligation to give to me is a step in the right 78 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:18,920 direction. Like to me it's like we have the 79 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:23,200 whole team of philanthropy, of which EA is just a tiny part, 80 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,920 right? And really the enemy is apathy 81 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,800 is the tendency of humans to ignore problems that don't 82 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,640 affect them right now and leave like a future generation to deal 83 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:35,200 with it. Like if we can get anyone on 84 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,840 board, I'm generally positive on on them unless they do something 85 00:04:38,840 --> 00:04:40,720 like absolutely horrible, you know? 86 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:45,800 I'm certainly sympathetic to the idea that like, trying to do 87 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,520 good and trying to assess whether or not like what you're 88 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,240 doing is good is a reasonable frame for people to take. 89 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,920 And yeah, just flat out, I think that's a reasonable frame for 90 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,280 people to take. I think both Cass and I end up 91 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:02,360 having some frustrations Cass already mentioned, like the 92 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:08,040 tendency for certain members of EA groups to choose not to get 93 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:12,360 right or to choose to defer giving until some future point 94 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,440 when they've hit some arbitrarily large number or 95 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:21,600 those who tend to focus on like various existential risk to 96 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:25,200 avoid having to deal with certain risks to humanity. 97 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,920 And you even see this sometimes in and this is getting really 98 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,600 meta and way too deep into the rationalist weeds. 99 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,040 But you'll see like in their conversations about how they 100 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,840 want to present themselves in in public, you'll see like yuds 101 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:40,720 come out and say like we can't talk about animal welfare. 102 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,880 We can't talk about AGI. We need to focus on in the 103 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,920 specific example he he gave was malaria Nets in Africa. 104 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,560 He's like malaria Nets in Africa is something that's 105 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,200 understandable to people. And if we present effective 106 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,280 altruism is focused on things like distributing malaria Nets 107 00:05:56,280 --> 00:05:59,960 in Africa rather than on dealing with the existential risk of 108 00:05:59,960 --> 00:06:03,800 artificial general intelligence will be able to accumulate the 109 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,480 influence and stuff that is important for the broader EA 110 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,560 movement to deal with their like set of that seems. 111 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:13,480 Totally reasonable though, right? 112 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,960 Like the idea that you would present the intro level version 113 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,480 of your social movement to the public first. 114 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:21,640 I don't know. I actually have no beef with 115 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:23,120 that whatsoever. We do the same thing. 116 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,000 You know what I mean? Like in housing policy, we have 117 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,560 a lot of like really complicated in the weeds proposal. 118 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,640 Like for instance, like we want to, we want to repeal Prop 13 in 119 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,640 California ultimately, right? But that's not what I'm going to 120 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,040 tell someone who's never heard of the movement before because 121 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,440 it freaks them the fuck out. Like and understandably, right? 122 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,400 Like I I get that. It would freak out older voters, 123 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:46,440 but absolutely. Yeah. 124 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,520 But I but I will say that and and I understand that they're 125 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,200 the people. Voting voters, it's just the way 126 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,120 to say. Voters, I understand, I 127 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:57,200 understand, but I, but I am saying that as time passes, I do 128 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,880 think that, you know, listen, I'm in my 30s. 129 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:05,320 I will say I even like I am against Prop 13. 130 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:09,880 I think there's a lot of people my age and older who are against 131 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,160 Prop 13 already. So I don't think, I don't think 132 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,280 it actually is as controversial as you think to be like, I'm 133 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,720 going to push for this idea that we just get rid of Prop 13. 134 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:23,720 Like that isn't as extreme as you as, as I think you're making 135 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:25,720 it sound. And this is the idea where I go, 136 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,440 I, I don't like the idea that you're, you're presenting an 137 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,880 easily like an easy pill to swallow. 138 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,120 You're like, oh, malaria Nets, everyone likes malaria Nets. 139 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,920 And then you're like, anyway, now we're going to this 16 D 140 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,360 chess situation where we need to, we need to plan for that. 141 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,160 And that's super important right now. 142 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,640 Cass, I do think you should remember that perhaps your 143 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,400 friends are not among the moneyed and powerful interests, 144 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,080 like the ones who have money to give to causes or the ones who 145 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,040 have the ability to create new policies or make changes like 146 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,480 that. That and you know, even if we 147 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,840 frame this in the worst slide, I still like personally like from 148 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:05,760 a consequentialist perspective, right? 149 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:11,720 Like if we can trick people into giving more money to do good, 150 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,960 like I understand this is dangerous and I understand why 151 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,120 you dislike it. And I agree completely actually, 152 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,240 that it can be abused. And that arguably has been 153 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,200 abused by like, you know, you could call them EA leadership. 154 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,960 I don't I don't, I definitely don't condone the behavior of 155 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,760 the guys who want to buy the castle or whatever. 156 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,360 I guess like the thing I'm defending, I guess is the social 157 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,120 principle sort of at the heart of it, like in its original 158 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:43,159 conception by like a few like Oxford professors who are like, 159 00:08:43,159 --> 00:08:46,720 hey, let's just think about how we can spend our money towards 160 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,000 philanthropy the best. And also sort of make a 161 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,120 framework around like why that's something you ought to do. 162 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,160 That's the thing I like about you. 163 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,240 That's the thing I admire and respect. 164 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:00,080 I agree that, you know, like, let's, I'm not a big fan of 165 00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:02,640 Yadkowski's public communications. 166 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,360 Like, we have some common ground there. 167 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,520 But I also don't fault him necessarily for, like, wanting, 168 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,560 you know, to put your best foot forward when you're marketing a 169 00:09:12,560 --> 00:09:15,360 social campaign. Like I can't fault someone for 170 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,480 that, you know? Cass, you and I both kind of had 171 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,400 this tension last time where I kept returning to Singer and Org 172 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:26,120 and like the philosophical roots of effective altruism and like 173 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,400 the way it grew out of utilitarianism and stuff like 174 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,880 that. And how it is possible to use 175 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,400 those philosophies to take those philosophies and live a good 176 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,760 life in which you help other people and do a lot of valuable 177 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,360 good things. And it would seem like that if 178 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,920 there exists this philosophy that makes it possible to do 179 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,640 that, that it is that the philosophy itself is not like 180 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:55,800 inherently going to lead to I'll, which means there's some 181 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:00,200 other factor, perhaps related to the types of people that are 182 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,760 attracted to this that leads to many of them doing this type of 183 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,000 ill. Like effective altruism itself 184 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:10,840 is kind of milquetoast, right? Try to do good where you can. 185 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,640 When you have the capacity to do good, you should go and do some 186 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:15,720 good. If you see someone drowning in a 187 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,640 pond and it's only going to make you 10 minutes late for work, 188 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,440 maybe you should try to save the person drowning in the pond. 189 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:25,360 I think most of that is actually largely unobjectionable, even to 190 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,200 people who are like somewhat poisoned against EA at this 191 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,720 point. And like, the bigger problem 192 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:35,080 seems to be the fact that many of them noticed that while they 193 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,160 were thinking about, they realized that money is the big 194 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,520 lever and just kept focusing on the money part to make their 195 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,240 lever bigger and bigger and bigger in the hopes of Aventi 196 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,800 doing some change. And the types of people who are 197 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,720 attracted to money as a form of power are not generally the 198 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,000 types who actually care about doing that much good. 199 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,640 I sort of agree. I think this is, I think another 200 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,680 way to talk about this debate is to try to identify what is it 201 00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:02,880 about EAS that like really bother me or people in general 202 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,200 so much. I'm not an EAI feel like I 203 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,800 should say, but like I, I think what's interesting about them is 204 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,680 that like you put it in many ways, it's a completely 205 00:11:11,680 --> 00:11:15,600 milquetoast philosophy. And yet, and yet it seems to 206 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,680 piss people off way more than it should. 207 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,160 And I think the, the money thing is a big part of it. 208 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:28,120 And I think this is like sort of downstream of the philosophy's 209 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,760 roots as like a fundamentally consequentialist framework of 210 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,160 thinking, right? Like if you need money to do 211 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,480 good, more money to do more good is better in, in certain. 212 00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:39,800 You know, like, if you accept the framing like of 213 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:43,920 consequentialism as like a philosophical, like valid moral 214 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,320 framework, I think you are sort of forced to conclude that that 215 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,960 might be true. And it's sort of hard to argue 216 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:50,920 against. But I think people hate it 217 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:53,640 because not everyone's a consequentialist. 218 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:57,560 You know, I, I think that's really at the root of what 219 00:11:57,560 --> 00:12:00,480 pisses people off about it. Obviously, I think the people 220 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,560 associated with it and what they've done under the guise of 221 00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:08,000 EA has been to to blame for a lot of the bad traction here. 222 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,800 What we're discussing here is not the fact that like EA has 223 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:13,920 been tarnished by Sam Bankman Freed. 224 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:19,200 The idea is that Sam Bankman Freed was attracted to EA and 225 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,520 became an outspoken person for it for a reason. 226 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,640 Like there's a reason that this happened. 227 00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:29,360 And I do think it has largely to do with this concept of two 228 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,480 things. One, I mean, greed is good has 229 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:36,160 been bred into America deeply since the 80s. 230 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:41,320 But two, I think that if you can justify greed is good and you 231 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:46,520 can play it out 32 steps in advance and you know, Oh, well, 232 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,680 then I'm going to have $30 billion to spend on whatever I 233 00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:53,080 want, Then you've just now you've justified this as opposed 234 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:57,360 to when I think of what's best for giving, my framework is not 235 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:01,240 how much can I give, it's where can I give locally that will do 236 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:02,920 the most. I, I would say that makes you 237 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:06,400 pretty normal actually. I, I, I think most people think 238 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:10,320 that way, and I think that that is a perfectly valid moral 239 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,800 framework that feels intuitive to most people. 240 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,200 Here's my defensive EA again, like in a different way. 241 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,480 One thing that's striking about EA is that it's managed to 242 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:24,240 radicalize like a bunch of tech people basically like people. 243 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,440 Whom? Would otherwise never give have 244 00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:34,160 managed to trick themselves into a like a greed is good justified 245 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,360 world where they actually do end up giving some. 246 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,400 I mean, I don't think the numbers lie like they have given 247 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:42,240 quite a fair amount. I would say it's not 248 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,920 insignificant like they have like EAS. 249 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:49,720 I think net have probably saved quite a lot of lives and I don't 250 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,880 think that's something that can be like dismissed so easily. 251 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,000 You know what I mean? Like I think your criticisms are 252 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,520 valid. I agree that the framework of 253 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:04,400 consequentialism leaves open the door to especially canny bad 254 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,240 actors who can sort of use the very sort of logical framework 255 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,280 of consequentialism to create an opportunity for for abuse. 256 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,400 And I think that is a weakness of this system that the 257 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,920 community that is the very nascent group we call EA, we'll 258 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:21,360 we'll have to learn to reckon with. 259 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,480 But I don't think that's actually so different than any 260 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,360 other nascent social movement. Like we all have problems. 261 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,120 A friend of mine recently said to me, like, there are so many 262 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,000 shitty guys and there are so few positions of power. 263 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,320 And we see this in like even progressive politics, you know, 264 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,720 like that people are actually really good at taking like a 265 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,680 rhetorical framework for doing good and using it to justify 266 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,720 their own bad behaviour. I think EA is exceptional in 267 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,200 that the demographic of people who are into EA are like 268 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:57,040 exceptionally like sort of online somewhat money that tech 269 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,640 people. I think that more than any of 270 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:03,040 the other of the rest of it made it this really fertile ground 271 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:07,560 for an SPF to appear sooner or later, you know, but I, I, I 272 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,440 think it's a demographic thing more than it really is like a, 273 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,840 because of the philosophical underpinnings of the framework 274 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:15,320 thing. There was an interesting thing I 275 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:16,880 thought of when you were mentioning that, though, about 276 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,760 how it's like convince tech people to give Because if you 277 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,120 take Sam Bankman Freed and some of his friends at their word, 278 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,320 which you shouldn't do, but assuming you did do that, they 279 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,960 claimed that like, like Sam Bankman Freed claimed that he 280 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,120 considered whether he should be a journalist or something like 281 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:33,520 that to have his impact in the world. 282 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,760 And it was only when he read earned a give. 283 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:38,480 But he also claimed he never read a book. 284 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,680 So it's hard to figure that out when you want when he read 285 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,480 earned a give that he realized that he should go and get a job 286 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,560 at Jane St. because then he'd be able to do so much good than if 287 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:49,160 he was a journalist or something like that. 288 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,400 And and so in Sam Bankman Freed's version of events, which 289 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,280 probably isn't true again, he wasn't, he wasn't a tech person 290 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,080 convinced to give. He was a person convinced to 291 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,080 follow that path so that he could later give, right. 292 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,680 He became that type of tech person so he could give. 293 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,080 He wasn't a tech person who was convinced to get. 294 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:09,680 What? Look, I don't think any of the 295 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,520 three of us believe a word of what you just said and. 296 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,680 You can't see Sam Bankman freed as an investigative journalist. 297 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,760 I would, you know, I would love to watch that biopic. 298 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,600 I don't think it's possible. I was just look from my own 299 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,480 personal experience meeting EAS, they're all already tech people. 300 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,440 You know, I haven't met a single EA who is like, well, I better 301 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,960 get into programming though that is a thing that they say you 302 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,560 might ought to do. I've seen a guide from EAS to 303 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:40,520 think about. Look, if you're not very wealthy 304 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,200 right now, it might not be a good idea for you to give very 305 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,560 much, but if you're good at math, like you might want to 306 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,280 consider one of these careers. I don't think that's horrible 307 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,520 advice. I don't, I haven't met anyone 308 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,280 who's followed it, you know, just like personally, but maybe, 309 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,080 you know, there probably are a few out there. 310 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,400 You know, I don't think it's the worst thing necessarily. 311 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,680 I don't think most people are going to be able to bootstrap 312 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,360 themselves to like SBF level fraud. 313 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,200 You know, I think for most people, earning to give actually 314 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,960 looks way more reasonable. Like try to get a corporate job 315 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,720 and like, don't worry so much about whether your your job is 316 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:12,119 creating moral good in the world. 317 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,520 That's mostly how I think about that line of reasoning. 318 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:16,119 Because I think it's it's going to be really. 319 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,599 Hard for most people to find a professional pursuit that can 320 00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:22,000 keep them alive. That also is like, sort of 321 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,040 unambiguously altruistic, you know? 322 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,599 Now anyone can learn to code though if they go to Lambda 323 00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:28,920 school I hear. That's true. 324 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,280 Anyone, everyone, actually, it's going to be $100 billion 325 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,800 company. That's why all three of us have 326 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:40,400 invested in Lambda school. I think CAS more than all 327 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,040 either. Yeah, all of my CAS coin is now 328 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:44,880 in Lambda school. That's correct, yeah. 329 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,000 So. That's gonna that's your 330 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,920 retirement fund, actually. I was a big believer in Lambda 331 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,320 for like 2 1/2 weeks before I researched it. 332 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,880 What about it made like, I mean, that's actually pretty cool if 333 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,160 they convinced you with just the marketing, you know? 334 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,440 When I learned how to program, I learned way more by studying on 335 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:05,440 my own than by listening to my teachers. 336 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,960 And so I was willing to swallow the premise that like, this was 337 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,840 a thing that could be learned outside of the traditional 338 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,760 structures. And I thought the economics of 339 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,760 it were intriguing. In terms of incentives, this is 340 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,880 before I learned about, you know, how some of the Isas were 341 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:28,240 being repackaged and sold off. And the incentive alignment that 342 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,800 was like the base of the entire concept didn't exist in the way 343 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,920 it was described. But like at its basic level of 344 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,000 this is a thing people can learn and this is a way we can teach 345 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:43,000 it in a way that potentially makes a bit more financial sense 346 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,640 for them was somewhat appealing. There's ways that we didn't have 347 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,040 to be predatory. I, I think we can even like 348 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,280 connect this silly in joke to like what we're talking about 349 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:53,320 too, right? Like. 350 00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:55,600 And also sorry just before you say it to make this not an in 351 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,440 joke, people should go read Vincent's reporting about Lambda 352 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:02,200 school now Bloom tech. And listen to his listen to his 353 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:07,520 Jason Calacanis this Week in Startups interview because it's. 354 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:08,920 That was a great, that was a great time. 355 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:15,800 Now it's less of an. Now let me try right, like so I 356 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,520 would like like I think you know, Lambda School with regard 357 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,280 to like the wider educational space is akin in some ways, I 358 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,720 think to like the EA leadership within the broader movement of 359 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,760 like, you know, let let's think about our philanthropy before we 360 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,520 just give like insomuch as like Lambda School is just another 361 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,200 boot camp. Like there are a bunch of them. 362 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,920 Some of them are seemingly like decently effective, some of them 363 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,120 less so. It's really hard to actually say 364 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:46,880 what the magic sauce is, but they were able to use like canny 365 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:51,120 marketing, being really aggressive about proclaiming 366 00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:55,640 their good in order to like dupe a large number of people to the 367 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,920 detriment of all. And that's what happened with 368 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,040 SPF, right? That's not to say that like post 369 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,920 secondary education. Isn't necessarily worthless or 370 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,840 that like the framework that maybe like you're better off 371 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,120 learning outside of the university system is just wrong. 372 00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:16,880 Like a lot of my detractors accused me of being a shill for 373 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,280 universities or something, which, you know, far from it, 374 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,080 right? But the, the danger I think is 375 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,360 like, you know, they, they become sort of a toxic asset in 376 00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:28,320 the space. Like now when, when people think 377 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,600 of boot camps, they are sort of polarized by like the news about 378 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,280 Lambda School to an extent. And I think this is, this is 379 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,040 shame actually, like I'm actually pro boot camp. 380 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,520 I, I think they're great. But as a result of my own 381 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,080 reporting, the industry has suffered a PR problem to some 382 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,040 extent. Likewise, I think that's what 383 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,720 happened with SPF and EA, right? Like, I, I think in five to 10 384 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,200 years we might have a version of EA where maybe they picked a 385 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,880 different name, maybe it's different people, but largely 386 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,560 the framework of like, Hey, you should, you know, and again, 387 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,640 like, this is something that Christianity does too, right? 388 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,560 Like you should devote like a certain percentage of your 389 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:07,080 earnings to some causes ranked roughly by, you know, what we 390 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,640 call like effectiveness. But really you can do whatever 391 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:11,480 you want. I think that that will come 392 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,000 back. Like I, I think that will 393 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,440 survive SPF and I think that will be to our betterment. 394 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,280 But I sort of acknowledge that we've got to live through this 395 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:23,560 dip where these words are just like so colored by what's 396 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,760 recently happened. And I'm OK with that too. 397 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:26,880 You know, like, what are you going to do? 398 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,800 The most I think for giving way that I perceive EA do you 399 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,560 remember the giving pledge? Yeah, the giving pledge is this 400 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,280 idea right that oh, I'm going to give away everything before I 401 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,960 die who's going to disagree with that promise right. 402 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:40,960 No one's going to say oh, I think that's terrible you 403 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,320 shouldn't you shouldn't say that I think the problem with these 404 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,800 pledges and these things that rich people say is that they 405 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,800 don't have to act on them when they're alive largely like they 406 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,400 don't they don't actually give very much in a lot of them a lot 407 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,000 of them. I'm not saying everyone, this 408 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,680 isn't some blanket statement or something. 409 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:03,120 I'm just saying like, you know, the powerful billionaires on the 410 00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:07,560 top are people that we think about and aren't I, I, in my 411 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,720 humble opinion, don't don't give enough. 412 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:15,360 And I think the idea is making them give now as opposed to give 413 00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:17,840 later. And that's the problem. 414 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:22,000 So I'd say like, one, I think your criticism is fair. 415 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,880 Two, I think people said that when the Giving Pledge came out. 416 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,760 I think that was, it wasn't like it was a unanimous, this is 417 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:32,480 good. There were a lot of detractors 418 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,720 then and now. And look, I think it's baby 419 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,640 steps, right? Like EA is less that it's like a 420 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,480 little more, let's give some now, right? 421 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,320 Like we're pushing it closer and closer to the present. 422 00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:48,040 I don't think you're ever going to be able to convince 423 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,920 billionaires outside of straight up taxation to give the majority 424 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,120 of their profits to social causes. 425 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:01,600 And I, I don't hold out hope for that as a like salvation for our 426 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,800 society. But in the meantime, if some of 427 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,480 the ones that are on the fence can be peer pressured into 428 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,000 giving a bit, I'm going to shut up and take my checks wherever I 429 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,560 can get them. You know what I mean? 430 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,040 Like, like from my perspective, like we're in a war. 431 00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:20,680 Every check I get now that lets me save a life, like, let me, I, 432 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,680 I don't care, right? Like I'm waiting for the 433 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,440 government to step in and dramatically increase cap gains 434 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,040 and inheritance tax. And I'm going to advocate for 435 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,440 that. But if I can convince any patron 436 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,160 to give me any, like, because a lot of, I think actually, 437 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,160 frankly, a lot of people who are wealthy are sort of torn between 438 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,040 the notion that like they ought to live a, a beautiful life and 439 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,320 that other people can't. I actually think that moral 440 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,800 dilemma is pretty common and where I can exploit it, I will, 441 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:57,000 you know, so I see it as less like I, I guess I don't care 442 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,360 whether they're good or bad people ultimately like the, the 443 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,400 morality of like their internal just like whatever they're 444 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,320 feeling like whether they should be truly motivated to give or 445 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,040 not. Like, I guess what I'm saying is 446 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,120 I'm a consequentialist too. Maybe that's why I sort of like 447 00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:17,600 EA, right? Like I'm trying to do something 448 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,800 I think is good. I'm going to take every, like, 449 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,160 opportunity to do it that I can do reasonably. 450 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:29,040 And if this moral framework is convincing, you know, like 451 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,240 people with unearned wealth to give it to me, like, I'm going 452 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:33,920 to shut up. I know where my bread is 453 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:35,480 buttered. You know, that's how I feel. 454 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,760 One thing you mentioned just a couple minutes ago was the idea 455 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,920 of people from the EA community eventually rebranding, coming up 456 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,920 with some other name for much of the same beliefs and coming back 457 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,200 in public. And what's been interesting for 458 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,840 me over the last year has been watching the emergence from a 459 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:58,480 very similar space as EA, sharing many of the same kind of 460 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,680 rationalist roots, watching the effective accelerationism 461 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,640 movement start to grow out of San Francisco. 462 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,880 If you're a consequentialist like I think it's worth thinking 463 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,160 about EA giving birth to this monster. 464 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,800 Each movement disavows the other to a large extent, right? 465 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,560 Most effective altruists don't think that effective 466 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,240 acceleration is are handling these existential risks well. 467 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,160 And effective acceleration is think EA people are thinking 468 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:33,000 about the risks all wrong, but they both come out of and share 469 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:38,320 a like common cannon around like the same set of existential 470 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,640 risks. And what's been interesting to 471 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,720 me is we talked about the milquetoast version of EA, the 472 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,600 very unobjectionable version, which is there are people who 473 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,880 are suffering and dying and you should help them. 474 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,400 The more objectionable version of EA, which mostly exists 475 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,040 online and in like a few small places in San Francisco. 476 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,520 We should be clear. Which is where most of EA is. 477 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,200 Though to be clear, that's where most of EA exists. 478 00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:02,000 Sure, sure. Sure. 479 00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:04,680 But my point is, I want to be clear that there are many 480 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,160 effective ultras who would disavow some of the types of 481 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,080 things I'm going to describe because I think that's 482 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,720 important. But there was like, there was a 483 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,960 significant subset of effective ultras who like assembled and 484 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,280 created this Canon of beliefs around like the existential risk 485 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,000 of artificial general intelligence. 486 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,680 And when a set of consequentialists with a 487 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,840 slightly different view on what the like end consequence of 488 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,480 artificial general intelligence would be, two groups of 489 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,240 consequentialists sharing a significantly overlapping cannon 490 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,040 came up with like significantly, almost diametrically opposed 491 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,640 views about how to handle a single risk. 492 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,400 And that's that's stuck in my head. 493 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:49,880 Yeah, wow. I think that's a great point, 494 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,160 Bennett. Here's my view of EAC as it 495 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,920 exists in San Francisco. I don't believe it actually 496 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,480 exists. Like what I mean by that is like 497 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,680 a friend of mine is like a 25 year old woman and like avid 498 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,480 Twitter user. And for like a few weeks she had 499 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:12,680 EAC in her profile name. And I was very confused by this. 500 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,280 So when I saw her, I asked her why did you do that? 501 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,400 And she's like, oh, those guys are funny. 502 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,600 And I was like, do you like know what the beliefs? 503 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:22,760 Like what is what does it mean to be a EAC? 504 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,600 And she was like, I don't know, like AI stuff. 505 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,640 There is no like central Organism of like there's no, 506 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,400 there's no 5O1C3. They're not like recruiting. 507 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,240 They have no goals and no ability to achieve those goals. 508 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,760 I don't like who is it like based Beth Jazos or something. 509 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,600 And then there's that other guy. I I can't even remember the 510 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,360 other one. They're just really just, 511 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,280 they're just yapping. They're just yappers. 512 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,920 They're going to be gone in like a year or two. 513 00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:53,280 They're not even trying to do anything besides like, I don't 514 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,080 know, some of them probably have some small time griffs, but I 515 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:00,400 think it's like actually pretty obvious to like most people who 516 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,200 like seriously follow the development of AI that these 517 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,960 guys are just they're just having fun posting. 518 00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:10,560 It might be that there are some negative consequences, but I'm 519 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,600 not sure what they'd. Be Marc Andreessen though are 520 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,440 you suggesting Marc Andreessen like isn't following the 521 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,480 development of AI or? Yeah, but you know what? 522 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:23,520 You know why he did it, right? Like he was just trying to be on 523 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,680 the in joke. I don't think he thought that 524 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:31,920 yak is like in any way like a real movement or like a future. 525 00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:34,480 Look, it might be look, maybe maybe I'm totally wrong. 526 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,720 It's just my impression talking to people who actually work on 527 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,600 AI that they're like, oh, I don't know who those guys are. 528 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,000 You know, like it seems like all the people who are actually 529 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,560 trying to develop AI and counter measures for AI don't really 530 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,480 know these people. Like most of them seem to be 531 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,600 just like Twitter accounts, like almost disembodied Twitter 532 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,640 accounts. Whereas with like EA or 533 00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,960 whatever, like you could point to like these are the guys they 534 00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:02,120 get, they go to events and they talk their book. 535 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,080 Like you could say who you ought to e-mail to discuss EA, whereas 536 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,320 like if you wanted to talk about yak, like who do you even talk 537 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,320 to? I mean, I guess it's that Beth 538 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,360 guy. Someone get Beth on the phone? 539 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,160 Yeah, it just seems way less serious. 540 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:17,960 I think it's stupid, don't get me wrong. 541 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,200 We should probably define it for the audience. 542 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:21,080 Yeah, let's. Try. 543 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:25,240 Effective accelerationists are people who looked at the people 544 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,360 who suggested that artificial general intelligence would be an 545 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:33,600 existential risk to humanity and our collective survival and 546 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,440 went, no, watch, we'll do it faster, and that's about it. 547 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,720 And a bunch of the writers they love to reference are very bad 548 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,720 people and stuff like that. But yeah, basically they were 549 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,160 like, what if instead of being careful, we did the opposite? 550 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,160 And so you're right that it's not as it's a less coherent 551 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,080 philosophy. It is harder as someone who 552 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,160 loves philosophy to do philosophical criticisms of EAC. 553 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,520 Because what are you looking at? 3 sub stack posts? 554 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:04,880 I agree. With you, but also when you 555 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,440 mentioned, for instance, instance, Marc Andreessen, 556 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:12,800 right, like I, I just, I had not read his Techno optimist piece, 557 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:18,000 but that's very E act to me like it is, it is everything they're 558 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,480 trying to express in their little cult in this way that a 559 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,200 venture capitalist would do it. And I and I do think that he 560 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,960 fully believes that stuff. I do think there's a lot of 561 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,600 powerful people, while it's like we can laugh about how there's 562 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:38,200 no cognitive like we can't cohesively even understand what 563 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,960 they're trying to do. A lot of people are just down 564 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,640 who are in power. To put a finer point of it, I 565 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,920 think what you're saying is that like to be an EAC is, is simply 566 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,480 to be like a kind of over the top cheerleader of techno 567 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,160 capital. Yeah, it's like that plus some 568 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,400 weird aesthetic. I think that's what makes an 569 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,360 EAC. And I think like, look, if you 570 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,920 want to like, expand the critique to that of like techno 571 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,440 capital itself, I think that's air game. 572 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,240 And, you know, it's also just somewhat like beyond the scope 573 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,520 of like, what, a few people. It's just so tough. 574 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:08,960 Like, yeah, fuck Marc Andreessen. 575 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,840 You know, like. OK, that's all I really needed 576 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:12,480 to hear. We're good. 577 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:13,640 Yeah. Totally. 578 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:15,880 I don't how do I express what I'm saying. 579 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,920 I would say in some ways Cass, you have some common ground with 580 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,400 EAC people in so much as they were people who were negatively 581 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,440 polarized by EA specifically. Like I think the the reason that 582 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,320 EA came into existence is that like EA people were a little too 583 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:37,080 neurotic about doomsaying about AI and 1st. 584 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,760 I think they just pissed them off like from the aesthetics and 585 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,480 tribalism point of view and that that like sort of congealed an 586 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,680 aesthetic counter response. I think if you take, I think 587 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,080 more Ben, it's maybe wider critique that like the the 588 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,080 people in E AC are roughly the people who would be like 589 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,240 proponents of techno capital itself anyway, without the 590 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,600 existence of the movement. I think that's fair and accurate 591 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,520 too. But I will say, I think there's 592 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,520 a lot of like, if you look at like EAC, the aesthetic 593 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,800 movement, I think there's like a shocking number of like 18 year 594 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,440 olds in there. You know, like compared to like 595 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,160 it's hard to divorce the like, it's a like cultural phenomenon, 596 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,480 belief system shared by the rich and powerful. 597 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,640 I think that's obviously true too. 598 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,640 And yet somehow when you specifically invoke the words 599 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,400 EAC instead of techno capital or whatever, like I think you're 600 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,600 trying to say, or one is often trying to identify a slightly 601 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,600 different group of people what you're talking about there. 602 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,960 Was honestly one of my biggest difficulties the first time I 603 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,440 started trying to look into EAC is because I went to the most 604 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,160 trustworthy people and looked like the people they've 605 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,680 referenced in as like their canonical pieces that like 606 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,880 defined this space. I like to the people they 607 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,040 reference and I'm like, wow, there's, there's some really 608 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,480 deeply troubling nihilistic beliefs they're referencing some 609 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,520 truly problematic belief systems and things like that as they 610 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,400 assemble this philosophy. And then I'd go on Twitter and 611 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,960 it was, it was it was the dumbest people who had never 612 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,640 once read a philosophy paper with EAC in their bio. 613 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,720 And so I didn't really know how to interpret it. 614 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:10,800 I'm like, I don't know what I'm supposed to criticize. 615 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,800 Am I supposed to criticize the idiot with EAC in the Bible or 616 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,840 the stupid philosophy paper that one person in the movement is 617 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:18,280 sighting? Here's how I put it. 618 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:19,800 You do. You ever spend a lot of time on 619 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:21,960 AIM, like as a teenager? Yeah. 620 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,040 You know how like, for like a good chunk of time, like the 621 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,840 thing to do on AIM was to like, set your away message to like a 622 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,360 specific song or something. Like. 623 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,240 Likewise, I think like the way you become a yak is like you put 624 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,440 yak in your profile on Twitter.com and like you do it 625 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,760 because like other people you think are kind of cool or 626 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,880 attractive are doing it. And like, like, I think that 627 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:50,120 specific phenomenon will vanish not long from now. 628 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,360 I, I think you're right to criticize like what some of the 629 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,560 philosophical underpinnings of it seem to be like we have to 630 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,440 extrapolate a little bit, which is just to say, I, it is, I 631 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,360 think it's another way of saying like the only way out is 632 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,320 through, right? Like the only way we can save 633 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,640 humanity is by accelerating like the progress of technology. 634 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,719 You know, I think you could spend a whole like 3 hours 635 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,120 discussing that. But like, the person you'd wanna 636 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,080 discuss that with was is like, not an EAC person, not Beth. 637 00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:19,239 It's like it's someone else. Beth Jesus is a serious 638 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,280 philosopher, we all agree. He knows quantum. 639 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,440 I heard he's gonna put the AI. In the quantum and we're all 640 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,679 gonna be in trouble. The two names when I think of. 641 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:32,320 EAC are Marc Andreessen and Gary Tan, actually. 642 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:33,760 Oh, interesting. Yeah. 643 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,880 And I get what you're. Saying in that it's not fully 644 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,520 fleshed out and there's no 501C3 or whatever, but it's troubling 645 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,080 to me that the people who most believe in this are those with a 646 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,520 significant amount of power in one of the most important, in 647 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,719 one of the most important and wealthiest areas in America. 648 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:52,960 I'll give you that one. Yeah, I, I. 649 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,520 I I didn't like it when Gary Tan put Yak in his profile. 650 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,840 I didn't care about Mark, cause fuck Mark, but like, Gary's a 651 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,920 little more on the border, you know, like it seems like 652 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:07,280 sometimes he can be convinced of reason and sometimes he can't 653 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,760 be. And I felt like we lost that 654 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:10,800 one. Like someone should have talked 655 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,920 to him. Like, I don't know, like I don't 656 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,120 have his phone number, but like, you know, maybe I should and 657 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,520 maybe should have called him. Yeah, it's worrying, right? 658 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,880 Like, because like to a lot of us, the movement is so like 659 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:27,880 transparently trifling that when someone who is I guess important 660 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,320 like this decides to sign up, you're like, just like, what the 661 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,720 hell is going on in here? And I, I agree. 662 00:35:33,720 --> 00:35:36,360 I don't have a good explanation for that besides that I think 663 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:38,440 these guys are trying to be 18 again. 664 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,400 And this is what you do when you're 18. 665 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,040 Like you edge Lord. You just think they're. 666 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,200 Being edge Lords, I don't know they're they're trying. 667 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,520 To have fun, I think. No, I really do think you're. 668 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,960 Onto something there that they're like the they want to be 669 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,280 a provocative 18 year old who still feels accepted and 670 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,280 included in a group of other provocative 18 year olds or 671 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,200 emotionally whatever provocative 16 year old. 672 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,280 And it really kind of clicked for me when you were talking 673 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,960 about the many people attracted to EACC because of the 674 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,320 aesthetics, because of the people they see in it, because 675 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,160 they want to go to the EAC meet up, because the the cute guy 676 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,200 they were talking to in class was going to the EACC meet up or 677 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,600 whatever. Is that like you saw that same 678 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,760 dynamic in certain EA circles and stuff where as it started to 679 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,080 gain a bit of prominence, as there was a bit more money going 680 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,320 into like EA type functions and stuff like that. 681 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,840 There was a certain cultural attractiveness that led to a 682 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,280 bunch of other people starting to identify themselves as long 683 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,760 termists or other kind of EA type words like that. 684 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:39,880 You might be. You might be. 685 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:41,320 Right, I might be in the wrong I guess. 686 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,080 I guess what I'm trying to say, I don't know how to put this 687 00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:47,560 except indelicately. I was never enamored of the 688 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:53,160 aesthetics of EA and I'd never thought that their aesthetics or 689 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,640 their social like in an interpersonal sense, cachet was 690 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,440 very strong. Take that how you want. 691 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,440 I I was actually sort of surprised that so many people 692 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:08,560 were convinced to become EA's Despite that usually you 693 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,240 bootstrap a social movement with but like a certain amount of 694 00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:13,640 charisma. Yes, exactly. 695 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:20,280 And that EA succeeded Despite that I thought was kind of cool. 696 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,440 I think it's probably because some of the early speakers are 697 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:23,880 on the topic were actually pretty eloquent. 698 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:25,880 You know, that you would you would talk to them for a while 699 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:27,480 and you actually find yourself sort of convinced. 700 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,840 And I think it was my impression, like the late Peter 701 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,680 Eckersley, for instance, right. Like, I guess he did have 702 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:33,800 charisma, you know, in his own way. 703 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:35,960 He was like, he did a lot of good. 704 00:37:36,240 --> 00:37:38,720 He got around town. People liked his work. 705 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:40,760 I think that's how they did it, you know, somehow. 706 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,400 Do you guys want to join EAC? Like, we could do it right now. 707 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,200 Like, it would be really easy. Yeah. 708 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,760 We, we just log in. I'm good day this episode. 709 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:51,400 Comes. Out we all have EAC in our 710 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,280 Twitter usernames. Yeah, it would be fun. 711 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:55,560 Right. And then we could go to the 712 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,520 meetups. I kind of want I I think you 713 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,720 could. Already go to the meetups yeah I 714 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:01,200 don't know. I. 715 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,720 Invited, right? I don't know when they're 716 00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:05,600 happening. I care. 717 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,360 There's no. Effective acceleration ISM 718 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,760 meetups in Western Illinois I promise you, you can start it 719 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,480 you. Can start in it. 720 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:14,120 Yeah. How's your chance? 721 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:15,280 It could. Be fun like. 722 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,200 Okay, I think look, I think that's part of the appeal too, 723 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,920 is that the barrier to entry is low. 724 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,040 Like if you want to have an EAC meet up, like any party you 725 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,320 throw at your house could be you just have to say that it is. 726 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,160 And there's something to that. Like I think it's, I think it's 727 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,520 akin to how crypto caught on. You know what I mean? 728 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,720 Like if we want to call back to a year earlier, the bulk of the 729 00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:39,720 work of this podcast, like like there's something about 730 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:40,880 argument. At all. 731 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:42,720 I'm not going to. No, this is a. 732 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,080 My my here's my issue. That you're going to say it's 733 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,720 like it's like crypto in the sense and I'm already like yes 734 00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:54,760 and because of the way that crypto is it's so pernicious now 735 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,680 like it is every it's everywhere. 736 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,240 So you're saying like EAC is kind of like throw away garbage, 737 00:39:00,240 --> 00:39:03,120 but that's precisely why I'm scared. 738 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:04,480 Well, with crypto you can make money I. 739 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,800 Think that's what made it have staying power. 740 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,320 I think I'm I'm just trying to describe like a recruitment 741 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,320 method here. You didn't mean like the crypto 742 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,760 was good. Making it seem. 743 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,400 Like anyone could get on board, right? 744 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,320 Like that's yes, I agree. I think this was pernicious. 745 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,840 About it, I think my belief is that it will fade without some 746 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:29,200 sort of central motivating like ideology, like I, I don't, I 747 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,240 don't give them too many ideas, Vincent. 748 00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:34,000 We're giving them way too many. They're just going to run with 749 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,320 this. You know they're going to run 750 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,000 with this. What's actually? 751 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,440 Especially interesting is when you said you were just comparing 752 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,240 recruiting techniques. All I kept thinking was, you 753 00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:45,080 know it's funny. Both crypto and EA worked by 754 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,600 marketing a sense of like inclusion in some grand idea 755 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,160 that most people didn't understand and targeting 756 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,840 primarily a group of like disaffected antisocial weirdos. 757 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:57,400 Sure, you're convincing me. Actually. 758 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,440 Yeah, maybe I should rate that higher started you, you have 759 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:04,520 heard that? Comparison. 760 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,400 Not me. Well, I think of. 761 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,400 EAC is still like super local. Like I don't think it's really 762 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:10,840 broken. Oh sure, I was thinking more 763 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,280 EAC. EAC a dozen weirdos. 764 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:15,440 Yeah, I don't tell 100. Klingon. 765 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,400 Yeah. I don't know if EA is still 766 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,680 around from 10 years from now. I'm not going to be that upset, 767 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,160 you know, like I'm OK with that. EAC if it's around 10 years from 768 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,360 now, I'll be a little upset. Like, I think that's what I'm 769 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,640 saying. If I remember the name. 770 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,200 Beth Jazos 10 years from now. That's it. 771 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:36,040 I'm done. I got bad news for you bud after 772 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,280 I edit this. Pod, you said it too many pies. 773 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,560 It'll never you my brain. You're going to hear it like 50 774 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,280 more. Times like you're fucked, man, 775 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,640 and that's it for you, yeah. I hate it when I. 776 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,400 Realize I'm about to remember something stupid for the rest of 777 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,760 my life. Like it. 778 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,760 It feels like a curse. Like how come we can't just 779 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:56,800 close our mind? Like you can close your eyes, 780 00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,640 but you can't close the thing in you that remembers stuff like 781 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:01,400 it's. This is why we need Neuralink. 782 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,840 Oh shit, you're right. Wait, can they do that 783 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,840 eventually you? Can just ask Elon. 784 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:09,280 If you I mean like that would genuinely. 785 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,760 Be kind of cool like Eternal Sunshine. 786 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,040 I'd be, I don't think, I don't think it'd be in the first 787 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,600 million people to sign up, but I might be in the second million 788 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:19,360 people to sign up. You're stoked for Eternal 789 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:20,960 Sunshine. You want to lose your memory? 790 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,640 That's dude, just get over now. Just get cold enough you're. 791 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,000 Fine. I've got brain true the the. 792 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:28,920 Memory loss is coming whether I like it or not. 793 00:41:29,720 --> 00:41:32,040 Look, I'm a drugs. Guy, you know, like I think of 794 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,320 Neuralink as just like the next frontier of like recreational 795 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,840 drugs, you know, like I think that's a. 796 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,840 Therapeutic endpoint, that's a little bit harder to get FDA 797 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:44,200 approval for. Yeah. 798 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,440 I mean, we're just going to. Mod ship your neural link or 799 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:47,520 what? You know, like they'll be like 800 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:53,480 black market neural links. You'd be like hey man, you 801 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:57,280 download the newest mod pack like what is incredible. 802 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,480 Like like it exists in his popular that will absolutely 803 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:01,880 fall. I think, I think it's kind of 804 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:03,600 sad we'll. Probably die before that comes 805 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:04,800 around. You know, it's kind of looking 806 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,920 forward to that this this episode is. 807 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,920 Gonna get cancelled cause Elon is he We're giving away his 808 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:11,480 business. Business model. 809 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:13,840 Ohh Elon is. Actually the 2nd. 810 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,440 Person to get a neural link just to get off ketamine definitely 811 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,200 cutting that line that's not making the episode yeah totally 812 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:21,880 get rid of that I. Didn't know that Elon owned this 813 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:23,400 podcast was what I was going to say. 814 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,480 I was like, whoa, like Elon can cancel this pod Elon's going to 815 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,280 buy. Spotify and turn it into xx.com. 816 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,400 You know at this. Point like, who knows what he'll 817 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,680 do? You know, the magic of Elon, he 818 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,560 could do any action at any time. He's he's the only one of us 819 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,400 that's free. You know, the rest of us are 820 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,800 stuck in the matrix of being predictable humans. 821 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,480 But Elon, the rest of us have to worry about. 822 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,080 Getting checks and keeping jobs and kids are. 823 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:52,680 Free guys. Kids are free. 824 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:57,520 As Elon says, kids are free. No, he pays. 825 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,240 He says they're free. Kids are free. 826 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:03,800 Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's. Legally obligated to pay 827 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:05,720 thousands. Don't talk about the horse, 828 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:06,600 guys. We're not talking. 829 00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,360 About the horse, he definitely paid 1. 830 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,760 Of his ex employees to have one of his children right he's 831 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,040 definitely. Paying a horse, some of his ex 832 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,640 wives and mothers of his children child support right 833 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:20,960 Yeah, I. Mean, hopefully they all just 834 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,080 get to live in a compound together or something. 835 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:24,360 Hopefully. Do you ever think they'll feel? 836 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,160 I don't think they'll like each. Other that, well, there should 837 00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:28,480 be reality. Show with. 838 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:32,960 Like all of Elon's children like 18 years from now or something. 839 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,480 Like 18. Oh, eighteen on. 18 or 840 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:37,200 something? Yeah, it'll be all of them. 841 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,520 It'll be all 18. This was like the Mormons. 842 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,160 You know, like I feel like they should do it with just Elon. 843 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,400 Yeah, be sick. We can let, May must. 844 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,280 Coast it. Oh God. 845 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:51,800 Thanks for that. All right, Vincent, as we close 846 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:56,200 this episode out, is there anything you would like to, you 847 00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:00,320 know, tell anyone about? Is there anything you're working 848 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,720 on or Yeah, any any stuff you want to? 849 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:05,120 Oh, should I plug? Should I? 850 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,680 Plug the honest Charlie thing. Sure. 851 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:10,520 So you say, hey, if you. Guys want to see a fun 852 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:15,000 documentary with a mayoral candidate in San Francisco who 853 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,680 has been banned from almost every bar in a particular 854 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,840 neighbourhood. You should go to my Twitter 855 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:22,640 page. It's it's on there. 856 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:29,000 My Twitter handle is FULLIGIN. This is a terrible pluck. 857 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:31,800 The video will also be. LinkedIn the description of this 858 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:32,840 video on YouTube. Cool. 859 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:34,120 You can do that, yeah. It's. 860 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,240 A it's it's a good video, I think. 861 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:38,720 I mean, I made so yeah, I watched it. 862 00:44:38,720 --> 00:44:40,520 I gave. It a like you don't even live 863 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:42,000 here. I don't even live in San 864 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:43,760 Francisco. I can't even vote.