1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:08,640 Welcome back everyone. I am Cass PNC and I'm joined as 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,760 usual by my partner in crime, Mr. Bennett Tomlin. 3 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:12,040 How are you today? I'm doing well. 4 00:00:12,040 --> 00:00:13,200 How are you, Cass? Fine. 5 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,640 We're joined by a special guest who has been at the courthouse 6 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,120 in some way, shape or form of the past week, going and 7 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:21,960 watching the Sam Bankman free trial. 8 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,040 Sam Kessler from Coindesk. How are you? 9 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,040 Hello hello long time first time. 10 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,640 This is pretty cool. Thanks, Cass and Bennett. 11 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,520 We haven't recorded since any of the defense's witnesses have 12 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,440 taken the stand, so I wanted to get us kicked off with those 13 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,040 individuals if we could and what they were supposed to 14 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,080 accomplish. For the defense we were talking 15 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:47,000 about the the, I guess it was the data scientist guy. 16 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,200 Joseph Pimbley. So there was him in crystal 17 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,000 Rawl. Who's a Bahamian attorney? 18 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,520 Who worked for works for for Sam? 19 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:57,360 Yeah, well, let's start with let's start with Pimbley, 20 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,160 because it sounds boring in terms of what he was sent there 21 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,400 to accomplish. Actually, can you explain what 22 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,280 his goal was for the defense? Sounds boring. 23 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,040 And it was boring, remarkably, compared to the rest of this 24 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,280 trial. But essentially, Pimbley is a, 25 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,280 you know, data analyst who was hired on the behalf of Sam's 26 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,800 team to kind of come in and assemble some documents that 27 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,840 show. I mean it's hard to know exactly 28 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,040 how they're they plan to use these document or you know these 29 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,880 these these data. But essentially charts showing 30 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:31,480 that Alameda liquidity and FTX liquidity was at a certain level 31 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:36,200 over the course of 2021 through 2022, the fall of the exchange 32 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,800 that, you know, makes it look like there was more money on 33 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:43,400 hand than, you know, what prosecutors would probably 34 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:44,080 allege. Yeah. 35 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,840 And we were all just kind of stunned at the prices this guy 36 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,440 was able to get from the, I guess I essentially the Bankman 37 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,280 Freed family. I I would assume that that's 38 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,280 who's ultimately paying this man's bills. 39 00:01:55,800 --> 00:02:00,360 He did 73 hours of work or something and got paid $50,000, 40 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,800 which is I think all of us are kind of just wishing we had 41 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,240 rates like that. Unfortunately, it sounds like he 42 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:11,680 didn't help win any hearts or minds in terms of people there 43 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:13,720 or the jury. I would, I would presume. 44 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,760 Yeah, I mean, it's hard to get into the mind of the jury. 45 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,760 But I mean the way that this went was essentially he 46 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,880 presented these documents and then the prosecution came up. 47 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:28,360 And the the main, I guess thrust of the prosecution's questions 48 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,360 or if you want to call it argument to the jury with their 49 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,040 questions to Pimly was was essentially, hey, where did 50 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,680 these numbers come from? Oh, they came from Sam and his 51 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:40,640 lawyers. So the database that. 52 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,560 That you, based all of your analysis on came directly from 53 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,120 the client and then there were, you know, several more questions 54 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:49,440 after that. And I think they actually 55 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,200 belabored that too much and might have actually lost some 56 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,000 sway with with the jury as a result of that, you know, 57 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:56,520 extensive questioning. Yikes. 58 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:57,240 I know. I know. 59 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,920 The second one was you mentioned Christina Roll. 60 00:02:59,920 --> 00:03:02,000 No. So it's funny you, said 61 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,680 Christina Roll. It is Chris. 62 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,200 There is a Christina role and there is no relation. 63 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,000 And there was a point made. Please. 64 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:09,560 Yeah, go ahead. What was that point? 65 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:11,440 Because that was what I was going to say too. 66 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,000 What was the point that was made in court? 67 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,200 So. Christina Role is a very 68 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:20,000 important Bahamian regulator kind of behind the the country's 69 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:25,680 embrace of crypto and crystal Role is a unrelated, which she 70 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,440 made very clear because Role in her telling is a very common 71 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,200 name there. She's an unrelated lawyer who 72 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,880 works for Sam and accompanied him when he talked to the 73 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,840 Securities Commission of the the Bahamas, I think if I'm getting 74 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:40,560 the name of the agency correctly, yeah. 75 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,840 And and just to add some color some color to what you just said 76 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,760 is that but from what I heard role is actually the most common 77 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,880 Bahamian surname out there like the first or second most common 78 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:56,000 Bahamian surname and which like I'm I don't know that's just all 79 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,200 of these weird little things that I'm that I'm fascinated. 80 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:04,320 By there were three roles in her testimony alone that she had to 81 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,440 distinguish. So I heard that that also was a 82 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:11,960 pretty unsuccessful defense tactic, insofar as her role in 83 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:19,360 all of this was only post collapse, which kind of negates 84 00:04:19,399 --> 00:04:23,280 a bit of what she's saying and why why it matters that. 85 00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:25,160 Can you expand on that for me? I. 86 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,400 Mean with a lot of this stuff, they're asking a lot of 87 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,560 questions that are they being lawyers from both sides? 88 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,280 That can seem disjointed. And sometimes it's because they 89 00:04:33,280 --> 00:04:35,480 want to enter things into the record, sometimes it's because 90 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:37,520 they want to tee up. Other questions that they're 91 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,360 going to ask Sam during his testimony, which we'll talk 92 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,280 about in a little bit. And I think that her main goal 93 00:04:43,280 --> 00:04:47,960 was to corroborate the timeline and substance of his meetings 94 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,280 with Bahamian regulators. One kind of contentious thing is 95 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:55,320 just that, you know, Sam. Essentially froze a bunch of 96 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:59,360 money or took a bunch of frozen money and gave it to, you know, 97 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,600 the Bahamas to in a very, you know, bad summary of how how 98 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:05,600 that worked. But, you know, it can seem like 99 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,760 a sort of cynical thing that he was willing to kind of kowtow to 100 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,960 the Bahamians in order to, in the view of prosecutors, I'm 101 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:13,520 sure, get preferential treatment there. 102 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,280 But I think part of her goal, Crystal Rolls goal with her 103 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:20,200 testimony, was to kind of communicate, hey, if he didn't 104 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,760 do these things that the Bahamas wanted him to do. 105 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,160 He would have gone to prison or faced severe penalties. 106 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,520 I mean that gets us through the 1st, the the first expert 107 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:31,800 witnesses. Do you have any more questions 108 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,760 about them, Bennett? No, my first questions start on 109 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,200 Bankman Freed. Then let's jump into the the 110 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,800 weird circumstances of you called it a mock trial. 111 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:43,720 I mean, I I guess I don't really. 112 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:48,520 It's all on record still, but it is without a jury present, and 113 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,000 everyone seemed a little stunned by that. 114 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:55,520 Essentially, without going into the legal details, because a 115 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,960 nobody you know wants to get super deep into that and BI 116 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,600 don't understand it as a journalist, not a lawyer. 117 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:08,080 You know, part of Sam's defense strategy rested on using his 118 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,880 lawyers and the advice that he received from counsel while at 119 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:15,040 FTX to kind of. Make the point that at least he 120 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,160 if he didn't have bad counsel, that he at least was following 121 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,720 the advice of counsel. And that is a kind of important 122 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,640 legal distinction. And they wanted to present 123 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,720 essentially this evidence that right or wrong, he got counsel 124 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,800 while he was at FTX and Alameda and that's what he followed. 125 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,240 Which led him to think that certain business decisions that 126 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,840 the prosecutors say were fraudulent were legal. 127 00:06:35,280 --> 00:06:39,760 And the judge, in deciding whether to admit this argument, 128 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,360 this kind of argument into court, did this weird thing 129 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,440 where he dismissed the jury and held a hearing which essentially 130 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,440 was like a mock trial where Sam and his, well, Sam was 131 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,600 questioned by his lawyers. They did their direct, you know, 132 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:58,080 questioning and you know, focus specifically on. 133 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,480 These sorts of questions, this weird legal Gray area. 134 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,160 And then he was also crossed, meaning the prosecutors got to 135 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,680 question him as well, not in front of a jury, but he was 136 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:09,600 still underoath. So it's kind of this confusing 137 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,040 thing to help the judge ostensibly make a decision on 138 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:13,960 what to admit. Yeah, And I think the technical 139 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,160 name for it is evidentiary hearing. 140 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,280 I called it a mock trial because that's more evocative than 141 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,920 evidentiary hearing, but we should probably be, you know? 142 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,000 Slightly more accurate, and after this, the only piece that 143 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,680 I believe was admissible from this advice of counsel defense 144 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:34,720 was that Sam Bankman Freed did receive advice from Daniel 145 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:39,200 Friedberg on document retention, and that part was going to be 146 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,240 allowed into the trial. Did I appropriately understand 147 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,240 the results of that evidentiary hearing? 148 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,160 Yeah, I think that's a a fair summary. 149 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:51,880 I mean, and a key thing backing up from the results is that Sam. 150 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,000 And his team really kind of threw Dan Friedberg. 151 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,520 I mean, whether he threw himself under the bus or, you know, 152 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:03,040 however you want to look at it, he was a huge focus of that 153 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,880 section of testimony. And yeah, that might backfire. 154 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:12,120 It might have backfired for him. I this I wrote a piece yesterday 155 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:16,120 or whenever this it'll when this comes out it'll be last week. 156 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,800 But I wrote a piece saying that this is Sam Bangman Freed's 157 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,280 kamikaze defense. And I think that like that is 158 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:29,200 what that's what that that evidentiary hearing made me feel 159 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,720 was like this guy is going to. And I just want to run through 160 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,640 some of the things he said. And you know these aren't exact 161 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:37,919 ways that he said them. But the the some of the things 162 00:08:37,919 --> 00:08:43,400 he said that I'm like, oh, if regulators or three letter 163 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,400 agencies want to deal with this, there might be something here 164 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:48,720 for them. The first one that springs to 165 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:53,200 mind, he talked about Jane St. and he said that they typically 166 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:58,480 told employees to delete chats and use signal. 167 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,080 The New York Times test. I'm like, OK, well, that's 168 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:06,880 probably not something Jane St. wants in court from someone 169 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:08,720 underoath. Keep in mind that as as we're 170 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,080 saying here like this, while there was no jury present, he 171 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,000 still couldn't lie. This was essentially to get a 172 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,160 he. Can't legally lie. 173 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,720 It's against the law for him to lie, and we know that. 174 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:21,960 If anything, Bankman Freed loves the law. 175 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,680 I mean, he can also forget. He can forget. 176 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:26,680 And he did that a lot. He's doing a great. 177 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:29,840 Job he might remember on Monday, so we'll see. 178 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,160 The other thing I wanted to bring up was that he Definitely 179 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:37,200 through Ken Son and Friedberg under the bus and tried to make 180 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,680 it about them and how they were culpable and he wasn't culpable. 181 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:43,520 They put the contracts in front of him. 182 00:09:43,680 --> 00:09:45,640 It wasn't his fault, blah blah blah blah blah. 183 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,560 And then definitely like trying to get Caroline, Gary Nashad and 184 00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:53,480 all of his other Co workers involved in some way, shape or 185 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:54,560 form. I'm honestly a little surprised 186 00:09:54,560 --> 00:09:57,520 he didn't throw his parents under the bus at this point, but 187 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,080 like, it it feels like anyone who he's ever known, he's 188 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:06,120 looking to at least implicate them, if not get off because of 189 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:07,440 them, Right? Like, which is just. 190 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,360 I don't know. It's wild to see that play out 191 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:11,200 in real life. And it's a weird needle to 192 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,400 thread too, because it's like, hey, it's their fault, but also 193 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:19,320 nothing was wrong. And kind of trying to to, you 194 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:24,080 know, make both of those things true in a lot of these cases can 195 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,720 prove difficult and at least vague and weird from the 196 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:29,080 standpoint of a jury, I'd imagine. 197 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:33,240 When they brought up Daniel Friedberg, the prosecution took 198 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:38,000 a couple of different tacks in their attempt to suggest he was 199 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:42,160 a less than stellar lawyer when he was hired by FTX. 200 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,400 Do you have any thoughts on that particular part? 201 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,240 That's kind of why I mention. That this could backfire because 202 00:10:49,560 --> 00:10:52,880 prosecutors asked the question were something to the effect of 203 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:57,680 Were you aware that Daniel Friedberg was taking illegal 204 00:10:57,680 --> 00:11:01,040 narcotics with employees of Alameda and FX? 205 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:03,760 That was fucking. Crazy. 206 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,440 The last question. Yeah, it was wild. 207 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,200 I I mean, and there's other questions that kind of come up 208 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,280 to that line. I want to add in here that while 209 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:16,080 we're discussing this, the judge admonished Danielle Sassoon for 210 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:19,000 saying that and said like how like kind of like was just 211 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,800 shocked that she had decided to bring this up. 212 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:26,800 She knew better, essentially. And that clearly, whether or not 213 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:31,880 that's true, which I'm not going to weigh in on, it didn't need 214 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:36,360 to be a part of this trial. So I just wanna make sure that 215 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,440 the audience understands that there was pushback on this and 216 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,560 it wasn't just allowed to go into evidence or whatever. 217 00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:46,240 Yeah, I mean, I think it was almost like a warning to Sam and 218 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:47,520 the judge. It's like, all right if you 219 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,120 wanna kind of bring this in. You know, the gloves are off. 220 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,360 And this, I mean, one other thing that they said that was in 221 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,120 my mind, a little bit more substantive was, and this is 222 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,280 where the Better Call Saul analogy comes in, is they kind 223 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,880 of try to bring up this narrative where Sam was looking 224 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,400 for a lawyer who would kind of just give him a green flag for 225 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:08,280 whatever he wanted to do. There were questions like, oh, 226 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:10,800 you know, did you tell such and such that you didn't like 227 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,320 lawyers or that, you know, if you had a lawyer, you wanted one 228 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,160 who would, you know, give you, you know, a green light for, for 229 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:17,720 whatever? And it kind of reminds me of the 230 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:19,040 Breaking Bad thing, where it's like. 231 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,120 Do you want a lawyer or do you want a criminal lawyer, a 232 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,080 criminal lawyer or a criminal lawyer? 233 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,960 Not saying that's at all. This is in court. 234 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,000 They're trying to make arguments, paint pictures and 235 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:31,520 not saying that's at all what happened here. 236 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,120 But they did kind of invoke a similar sort of a refrain. 237 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:36,960 And. That testimony, yeah. 238 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,040 And they did also take their time during the questioning to 239 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,400 mention Daniel Friedberg previous role at Excapsa, the 240 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,280 parent company and software provider for like Ultimate Bet 241 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,600 during the entire God Mode scandal where people there could 242 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,560 see the cards of people playing in the games. 243 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,120 Allowing poker players to cheat for the record, Daniel Friedberg 244 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,200 is not the only prominent cryptocurrency lawyer to work at 245 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,040 XSCAPSA during that period, with their Chief Compliance Officer 246 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,120 being 1. Stuart Hogner, who is now the 247 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,520 General Counsel, of course Forbid from X and Tether Small 248 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,440 World, just wanted that extra bit of context that the 249 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,880 prosecutors brought up during that evidentiary heating hearing 250 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,640 mentioned. Is well in the context of Daniel 251 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:20,360 Friedberg. Yeah, so anyway, it was crazy. 252 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:22,120 I mean, to sum it up, it didn't go well for Sam. 253 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,080 By the way, I don't know if we like made that clear enough, but 254 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:29,200 at least in my read, I think the most stunning part of this God, 255 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,280 even reflecting on this makes me just. 256 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:36,120 I just, it hurts my brain is he started a line of questioning 257 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:41,280 and then the defense asked him asked him a question and SBS 258 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,200 lawyer Cohen objected. And then the judge said 259 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,520 sustained like, like, OK, this is, you know, like, yeah, the 260 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,560 objection is good. Like don't answer this question. 261 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,400 To which Sam then answered the question. 262 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,960 And so his own lawyer goes, why did you answer this question? 263 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,120 Haven't you been here for four weeks? 264 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,360 I I should say no. I I should say this is where 265 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:06,840 there is like one benefit. To being like one of the few 266 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,520 benefits to waking up early and being in that courtroom is that 267 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:11,760 was kind of a lighter moment. So what you're talking the the 268 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,960 question was something to the effect of did you embezzle money 269 00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:23,360 and you know and you know Cohen Sam's lawyer objected the you 270 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,840 know the judge said sustained and. 271 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:31,200 Sam was like, no. And everybody laughed and that 272 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:32,920 was like, with a smile, Cohen said. 273 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:34,800 Hey, you know, you've been here for weeks. 274 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:36,080 You know, you don't have to answer that. 275 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,960 And Sam, like, laughed. And he was like, yeah, I just 276 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,200 kind of thought I should answer that one. 277 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,120 And the judge was smiling too. So anyway, But yeah, plays 278 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:46,240 differently. Sure. 279 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,000 And it is also idiot. It still is idiotic, right? 280 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:50,760 Because you should be listening to your lawyer. 281 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,960 Like, what in God's name are you doing? 282 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,160 Holy crap. Which just leads everyone to 283 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,320 believe, I think, that Sam Bankman Freed is absolutely 284 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,400 taking the stand against the advice of his lawyers, probably 285 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,280 against the advice of his his parents, and that he still 286 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,240 believes that he can talk his way out of this. 287 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,160 Or at least, as I, as I pointed out, drag everyone down with 288 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,520 him. On a very basic level, was there 289 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:20,040 anything new that you learn from Bankman Freed's testimony about 290 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,720 how Alameda FTX worked that you thought was insightful or 291 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:25,600 valuable? There are some things and I 292 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,600 can't say that they were all brand new to everybody, but at 293 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,800 least color for me. So there was some stuff that he 294 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:37,280 brought up around a hack or it wasn't really a hack, but you 295 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:42,360 know this mobile coin exploit where you know somebody was 296 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:44,600 essentially able to borrow a ton on margin. 297 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,440 And when these token prices shot up there, they were essentially 298 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:51,400 able to borrow against worthless tokens and really kind of 299 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,960 imperil the the the site or the platform rather. 300 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,240 And so the he give like a bit of a step by step that's not worth 301 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,240 getting into around that situation. 302 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,040 And that was at least interesting color. 303 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,720 There was also some stuff about the allowing negative feature 304 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,200 and why they implemented it. We can get to this. 305 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,600 I don't know. His timeline did not really 306 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,720 square with what we saw in evidence earlier in the trial, 307 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,800 but his rationale for why it happened was at least somewhat 308 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,960 interesting. But the broadly, and I don't 309 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,120 want to be get anything wrong here. 310 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,680 There was no smoking gun, if that's even the word in this 311 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,720 context. That was like, hey, you know, 312 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:34,800 you think this, but it's actually this. 313 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:36,680 I think what you're kind of getting at there, that there 314 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,920 wasn't really anything that made his story like a different 315 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,240 explanation that reasonably explained how the things 316 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,480 happened without implicating him. 317 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,360 It's kind of the impression I kept getting from his testimony. 318 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,240 Like in the course of it, he repeatedly. 319 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:56,280 Referred to the margin facility that FTX has as he did in his 320 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,120 pre in his media tour pre arrest. 321 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:04,400 But my understanding was that the analysis done by the people 322 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,440 after the fact pointed out that the hole in FTX was larger than 323 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,200 like the total amount of funds people had in the margin 324 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,800 facility. And so it still seems to me like 325 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:15,920 he's. Pointing at some love let 326 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,680 defenses that have already been blown up and pretending they're 327 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,520 still standing. Am I missing something in that? 328 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,720 No, you're not missing I I'd suggest too that people read Liz 329 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:29,640 Lopatos piece on Fridays testimony in The Verge because I 330 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:31,840 think she does the best breakdown that I've seen. 331 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:34,400 Of just like point by point kind of some of these things that 332 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:35,840 you're talking about Bennett broadly. 333 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,560 I think what he did on Friday was he just put together 334 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,800 different timelines and kind of made himself seem you know he 335 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,480 painted the picture of this guy who's more of an advisor than he 336 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:49,200 was a boss you know a person pulling the strings he I mean 337 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,000 none of this was surprising either this is what he was going 338 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,120 to do. But he also, you know, made it 339 00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:57,000 look like certain deputies of his were the ones behind not 340 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,720 just key decisions but, you know, actions that at least 341 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,040 plausibly I I some. Of. 342 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,200 I could understand where it's like, hey, I told these people 343 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,400 to do you know one thing and then they went off and did it in 344 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,240 a way that I didn't expect. And I'm kind of actually 345 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,120 fascinated by this because it as you're talk, you keep mentioning 346 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,360 thankfully I'm not the one having to mention Liz Lopato a 347 00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:18,680 bunch of this episode. Sam is doing it for me. 348 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,120 Do you do that? But frequently she's come up in 349 00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:24,880 every single episode that we've that we've done so far. 350 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,520 In her piece, she talks about one of I'm so glad she brought 351 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:32,680 this up because someone asked Sam Bankman freed years ago, or 352 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,000 maybe a year or two ago, whatever it was about why he had 353 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,000 chosen the name Alameda Research. 354 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:43,080 And he very explicitly explained that the reason he had chosen 355 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,000 the name Alameda Research was because it sounded not like 356 00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:50,640 we're trading cryptocurrencies and shit coins because banks 357 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,200 don't like if you're doing that. And they didn't want to lose 358 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,360 their banking, so they were going to make sure that banks 359 00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:57,520 thought they were just a research firm. 360 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:02,160 And so that sounds a lot more like bank fraud than what his 361 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,280 explanation was. Can you tell me what his 362 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,040 explanation was? I mean that was in the the Lewis 363 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,320 book as well for for all this been said on both ends about 364 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:11,840 that. I think that's kind of the 365 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,440 general accept, generally accepted history of what went on 366 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,240 there, called it out. Me to research cuz it sounds 367 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:21,280 more legit and not cryptoey. And in his telling it's like we 368 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,560 kind of named it after a town in California and it was better 369 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,720 than the other name, which was like wireless mouse, which it is 370 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:29,560 anyway. That's his story. 371 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:34,320 It's much more it seems a lot less pointed. 372 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,160 His choice to rename things. It wasn't all about distancing 373 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,800 himself from crypto and hiding what they were doing. 374 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,800 Though he did, even in his telling and the stand mentioned 375 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,720 like I think he said we didn't want it to be called Sam's 376 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,280 crypto trading firm, we wanted it to be under the radar. 377 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,160 So he is still kind of hinting at the same thing, right? 378 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,640 Right when he said that it was like with an eye towards 379 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,520 competitors, which was interesting though. 380 00:19:57,120 --> 00:19:59,680 Where it wasn't about like banking relationships and so on, 381 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:01,960 at least my recollection was that it was about like 382 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:03,760 competitors and such, but Bennett, correct? 383 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,400 Me And that lines up a little bit with kind of Michael Lewis's 384 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,640 telling of his leaving of Jane Street, right? 385 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,760 He believed that there was this massive inefficiency in the 386 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,720 crypto market. And he kind of anticipated, if 387 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,120 you take as literal the descriptions in that portion of 388 00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:23,320 Lewis's book, he thought he only had perhaps 12 months, perhaps 389 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,400 18 months, something to potentially like take advantage 390 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,640 of this inefficiency before other firms started moving in. 391 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,120 So that at least fits with what other people have said about him 392 00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:35,960 at some level. I mean, coincidentally, I was 393 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,360 actually seated next to to Michael Lewis yesterday morning. 394 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,520 Like during the open of his, you know, Sam's whole, you know, 395 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,800 testimony in front of jurors and at least. 396 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:54,600 You know, my Michael Lewis did not seem surprised by anything 397 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,680 that Sam said, which kind of I I should have said that before, 398 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,000 which kind of goes to what we're talking about now, but also what 399 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,720 you were asking earlier around whether we've learned anything. 400 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,600 Super, super, super new. This is kind of the narrative 401 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,600 that he's laid out, with the exception of some of these weird 402 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,080 things, like this naming of Alameda Research where they're 403 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,840 reframed. For for a jury. 404 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,600 Yeah, it just goes against hasn't that video actually been 405 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:21,000 entered into evidence of Sam saying what it was actually for, 406 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,360 which was essentially bank fraud? 407 00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:25,720 Like I thought that that video had been entered into evidence 408 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:31,040 as an exhibit, and if so, it goes like if I was a juror I 409 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,240 would be like which one do I trust? 410 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,200 The. The version of Sam Bankman freed 411 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,520 that feels like he doesn't have to lie about it and is just 412 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,960 talking openly on a podcast or the one that's here underoath? 413 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,800 Like, I know which one I'm gonna believe, but I guess I'm not a 414 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,480 juror. So luckily I. 415 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,000 I guess I'm more sympathetic to to Sam view of this is it was 416 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,480 more it wasn't that he directly I think. 417 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,880 Disputed that video and why he named things the way he did. 418 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,360 It's just that, you know, he might have also chosen Alameda 419 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,360 because it was a town in California and he might have 420 00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:07,280 also liked it better than wireless mouse. 421 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,960 So that's not necessarily a lie as much as it is a very 422 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,080 convenient, you know, excerpt of the the truth. 423 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:15,520 Fair enough. Yeah. 424 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,560 So those I do, I did want to bring that up just because it 425 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,680 seems like untrustworthy. Witness and I'm I'm wondering if 426 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,000 that is the sense that that is felt in the courtroom maybe just 427 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,720 from the journalist but I I assume journalists feel that way 428 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,120 just because they they remember the apology tour that he did 429 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,480 post collapse. But I I guess I'm, I'm wondering 430 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,640 if like there's a sense that this is the way it's coming 431 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,560 across in court as well. Everything is going to hinge on 432 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,480 the cross. When Danielle Sassoon, the very 433 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,240 capable prosecutor who will be asking him questions starting on 434 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,440 Monday, has a chance to kind of dig into his testimony. 435 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,960 And that's the most important thing, I do think though, if 436 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,280 we're to back up a little bit and just, you know, look at his 437 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:06,760 testimony from Friday, he in my view, did a pretty good job. 438 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,120 Of explaining things clearly, coming off as sympathetic and 439 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:14,560 like a kind person, if that's even a fair, you know, 440 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,840 characterization. But like he, you know, he was 441 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:19,960 very upbeat. He seemed confident. 442 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,360 He seemed poised. He didn't actually seem as 443 00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:25,480 scripted as some others, even though he was clearly well 444 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,720 prepared. Like he was coached, But he 445 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,520 didn't seem to have his, you know, all of his things narrow, 446 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,320 like word for word, nailed down. I don't think he did a poor job, 447 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,880 but it almost doesn't matter because the cross is weird. 448 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:37,960 It's really. All of these. 449 00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:40,720 And I also don't think, by the way, that the jury is going to 450 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,880 pick up on most of these little nuances and distinctions that 451 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:46,920 we've been talking about here because we've been following 452 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,600 this for a year on top of, you know, really scrutinizing these 453 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,320 transcripts in a way that I doubt the jury's able to do. 454 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,080 Were there any differences between Sam Bankman Freed's 455 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,560 testimony and those of other people in the inner circle that 456 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,920 you want to highlight or draw attention to? 457 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,200 The first one that was pretty glaringly different from. 458 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,160 Previous testimony centered around the quote UN quote 459 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,040 special privileges. I don't think that's the word 460 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,760 that Sam ever used in his testimony, but the prosecutors 461 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:20,240 used to describe these privileges that Alameda had on 462 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,600 the FTS exchange that other market makers and customers 463 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,800 clients of FTX did not have. The key one being this allow 464 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,400 negative feature which altogether kind of allowed 465 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:36,160 Alameda to withdraw. Infinite money you know not get 466 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:37,720 liquidated. You know I don't know if that 467 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,400 was all grouped under this allow negative thing, but it it it all 468 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,600 kind of grew into this like big set of you know basket of 469 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,720 capabilities for Alameda. Samsung firm briefly in the shod 470 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:53,040 and Gary Wang's telling they in 2019 implemented a version of 471 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,040 this allow negative feature that feature. 472 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:01,240 Was to kind of accomplish the in even in their you know testimony 473 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:07,640 more innocuous role of backstopping certain bad bugs or 474 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,280 things that could happen with liquidity providers market 475 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,480 makers. On FTX. 476 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,560 It was like this weird kind of like fix patch sort of a thing 477 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,840 that whether you believe that or whatever is besides the point. 478 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,560 But anyway, they say it started in 2019 and then over the years 479 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,280 the capabilities of this Cape, this, you know, function were. 480 00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:30,440 Expanded so much that you know, Alameda could withdraw 481 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,160 infinitely, pull out infinite lines of credit, so on and so 482 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:35,920 forth. But anyway, that's the allow 483 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,440 negative feature in Sam's telling. 484 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:47,760 He instructed Wang and Sing to implement a fix for a bug on the 485 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,920 exchange, which he expected to be, you know, a sort of flag or 486 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,520 something like that. That would allow Alameda, or 487 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,560 rather FX, to take action if Alameda balance dropped below 0. 488 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,520 So he thought it would be a a flag or an alert, he said. 489 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,320 But. You know his deputies went off 490 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,800 and implemented this thing that he says is the allow negative 491 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,440 feature. But the timeline This was years 492 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,480 after 20/19 his timeline. I'm wondering what? 493 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,400 You think the explanation is for such a large discrepancy in the 494 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,400 timeline cause the the timeline differs by like a year plus, 495 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,720 right? Like, how is there such a large 496 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,680 discrepancy between what Gary Wong and Nishad Singh think and 497 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,200 when this happened and these meetings that occurred with Sam 498 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,480 versus what Sam recollects as happening way later and with? 499 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,240 Under totally different circumstances, so he could have 500 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:41,040 misremembered. He could have, which we can 501 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:42,240 probably throw that one out of the way. 502 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,280 He could have lied, like outright. 503 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,120 He could have instructed, you know, either about the timeline 504 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,080 or about his role. He might have directed them to 505 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,520 do exactly what the feature ultimately allowed, which was 506 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,000 these infinite withdrawals, or which is much more sympathetic, 507 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,800 But I think it's also. Possible is like I, I, I I don't 508 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,560 know I I struggle with whether this makes sense. 509 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,040 But I do think it might be possible that there was this 510 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,640 kind of allow negative function in the code that they did 511 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,760 implement in 2019 which was this more innocuous thing. 512 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,720 And that what Sam was talking about on the stand on Friday was 513 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,680 the expansion of the capabilities of the allow 514 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,400 negative function, not the allow negative function itself. 515 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,840 And so there is some. You know, I, I, I you think 516 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,160 they'd be more explicit about that if that was the case. 517 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,840 But I think you are exactly right that there was one version 518 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:35,640 of it and then it got built on the form the other one. 519 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,960 And I think that matches up with all of the timelines given so 520 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,640 far except for Sam pretending he didn't know when this feature 521 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,360 was implemented. Because when FTX started, 522 00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:48,200 Alameda research was approximately 50% of the total 523 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,480 volume. Was the backstop liquidity 524 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,480 provider for any trades that went wrong and supposedly like 525 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,160 that was like was only supposed to then step in and it would 526 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,720 then be covered by the backstop insurance fund which as 527 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,680 previously testified about did not actually exist and was just 528 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,160 a random number they were putting in. 529 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,600 This functioned for a while until the mobile coin issue 530 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,120 where someone was able to take out this massive position in 531 00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:16,200 Alameda Then as the backstop liquidity provider had to step 532 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,080 in at an unreasonable price when they got liquidated. 533 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,080 Sam Bankman Freed then testified about telling Gary Wang and 534 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,880 Nashad Singh to go in and add in additional speed bumps related 535 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,880 to erroneous liquidation. So I think what Sam Bankman 536 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,800 Freed is talking about is Alameda Research's exemption 537 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,720 from auto liquidation was I think added after Mobilecoin. 538 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:37,960 But I think the allow negative feature based on all the 539 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,560 testimony so far pre dates that and goes back to Alameda's 540 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,080 institution as the primary market maker in the backstop 541 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,520 liquidity provider for FTX. And So what changed at this 542 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,800 point is the exemption from automatic liquidation and it was 543 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,600 important for Alameda Research to be exempted from automatic 544 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,600 liquidation because they were still at this point the entire 545 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,760 backstop liquidity provider. And so there were cases where if 546 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,120 Alameda Research's own position was liquidated, they would end 547 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,800 up on the bad side, on both the bad sides of that trade having 548 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,240 to effectively step in to fill their own false liquid, their 549 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,200 own bad liquidation, right. And so by exempting Alameda 550 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,480 Research from liquidation, you make it so Alameda Research 551 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,000 never has to step in to fill in for Alameda Research's own bad 552 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,920 trade. But that means the bad trade can 553 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,520 now balloon because you've already implemented this allow 554 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,120 negative related to all these other activities Alameda is 555 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,040 doing, and then you end up after a variety of other bad decisions 556 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,320 with an $8 billion hole. You just did a much. 557 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,800 More thorough and better job explaining that whole, you know, 558 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,600 thing that I said was kind of new to me in this testimony, 559 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,720 which was explained the rationale behind this feature. 560 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,440 And I actually do find that as a sort of believable thing, 561 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,480 whether or not what he knew about things, what he directed 562 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,680 or didn't direct, you know, all those elements of his testimony, 563 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,720 whether those things are true. But I do think I can see a world 564 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,360 where it was a more benign sort of a thing that came about in 565 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,440 result. You know of these problems with 566 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:02,760 how the exchange was architected? 567 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,440 Well, I was going to have a bit of a digression about the risk 568 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,200 engine. I I just think it's interesting. 569 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,120 At least we who have been following this know, have been 570 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,280 following FTX since before collapse know that this risk 571 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,080 engine, this you know cross margining system was supposed to 572 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,440 be the state-of-the-art thing that worked on FTX. 573 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,400 And for some reason really no other major exchanges and the 574 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,960 fact that that was essentially false advertising, it seems at 575 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,320 this point, that thing. That you just explained Bennett 576 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:35,000 actually undermines other pieces of, you know, Sam's cage case, 577 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,800 which is that this was an up, you know, upright, you know, 578 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,080 very straightforward, trustworthy business, 'cause if 579 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,360 that stuff is true, then the the the system did not work like he 580 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,400 advertised it to have worked. Well, yes. 581 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:51,280 And like in that very same vein, in his testimony to Congress 582 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:55,600 when he was effectively advocating for the DCCPA, we can 583 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:56,880 discuss what he was actually doing. 584 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,160 He talked about how he specifically said Alameda was 585 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,160 not exempted from any of the, like normal margin processes on 586 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,880 FTX as part of his testimony before the Agricultural 587 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:10,560 Committee or whoever it was at the time. 588 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,680 And so like him now saying, oh, I told them to put in speed 589 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,960 bumps related to liquidation. That's I imagine could come up 590 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,000 on cross. And like, I think more directly 591 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,200 speaking to it, we're like there might be more benign 592 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,960 explanations for certain decisions made, like the allow 593 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,440 negative could have been a choice made because of 594 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,480 legitimate difficulties in moving certain assets and it may 595 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,480 have been made with good intentions. 596 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,680 However, my trouble with Sam Bankman Freedom, whenever he 597 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,560 starts trying to make it seem that way is like Often, 598 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,000 companies that are providing financial services are governed 599 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,640 by a set of rules that only very barely touch on what your 600 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,080 intentions are when you're doing certain things, and very often 601 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,800 describe what actions you're supposed to take. 602 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,920 And at a basic level, you know, allowing your company to 603 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,120 withdraw more assets than they have, regardless of whether or 604 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,160 not you intend to do it, or intend to do it a lot, or only 605 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,600 intend to do it for a couple days while you send money over 606 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,560 to Circle and Tether or whatever. 607 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,600 Your intent only matters up to a point, especially when there's 8 608 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,520 billion missing, absolutely. Also, one thing that I I feel 609 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,880 like isn't talked about enough or hasn't been talked about 610 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,480 enough since Friday is we do really need to allow for the 611 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:34,560 possibility or probability that many elements of the testimony 612 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,600 that we've heard up to this point from. 613 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:41,000 Either Gary Nashad or Caroline and others has also been either, 614 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,120 you know, embellished, manufactured for their own 615 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:45,760 benefit. Like. 616 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,680 It's not like Sam's the only one who has to testify in a certain 617 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,000 way to negate his own role in what happened. 618 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,280 I'd like to put. Push back on that a little bit 619 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,120 because I think the benefit of the arrangement that the 620 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,360 government has with those witnesses. 621 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:07,400 Is in that if they are caught lying, or if they didn't share 622 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,760 some information that they should have with the government, 623 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,720 they're liable to do a shit ton of prison time. 624 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,840 Because the government can still get them for any of that. 625 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,840 And so it almost makes you go like, well, they're going to, 626 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,000 they're going to give themselves up for everything that they 627 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,880 think they're even possibly close to having committed. 628 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,200 In terms of crimes and and I think that is where I I see it 629 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:39,760 as like it's hard to suggest that they're as unreliable as 630 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:41,920 Sam Bankman Friedman. Well, yeah. 631 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,120 And at a very basic level, all of them admit they committed 632 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,920 crimes. Like Nashad, Gary, Carolyn, 633 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,480 Ryan. They all say I did crimes. 634 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,880 I I do want to go back. To like something specific 635 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,840 though which is this bug feature or this, you know allow negative 636 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,360 feature that we're talking about, let's look at like the 637 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,880 kind of like Occam's razor version of this which is you 638 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,440 know Sam, Gary and Nashad in a room talking about things. 639 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,440 And I I think it it does make sense where they all kind of, 640 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,600 like have this vague sense of like how they were going to fix 641 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,880 this bug or they were like, hey, we need to let them go more 642 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,040 negative. Maybe it wasn't Sam who was 643 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,320 like, hey, this is the solution we need to do this thing. 644 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,960 But I I think it's easy to kind of like construe that 645 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,199 conversation however it went down as, hey, Sam told us to do 646 00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:28,639 a thing, we did exactly that thing. 647 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,400 I can't imagine that it's that simple. 648 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,960 Or maybe I I mean maybe it is. But I I guess what I'm saying is 649 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:36,920 it's not about like, you know, it's not. 650 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,600 I shouldn't say that they they they. 651 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,000 It's likely that anybody outright, outright, outright 652 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,040 lied. But I do think that there's like 653 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,440 a way to believe and tell this story that does kind of 654 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,280 inculcate your your own, you know, role in in things. 655 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,719 It's Nashad Singh talking about how bad he feels while buying 656 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,120 his house, right? It's Carolyn Ellison. 657 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,080 Like being this. This was all such a relief to me 658 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,600 when I finally got to be honest about all this and all that, 659 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,720 right? And it's probably at some level, 660 00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:06,560 true they did feel bad, or did feel relieved, or whatever. 661 00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:09,840 But by presenting that story, or in like Carolyn's case, framing 662 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,520 her relationship with Sam in certain ways does, I agree, 663 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,960 probably make certain things seem more striking now just to 664 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,480 head. Back to Sam's testimony and you 665 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,200 know, these, you know, holes that you can kind of poke by 666 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,520 looking at past testimony. Sam makes it seem like he didn't 667 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:31,640 know about this whole or in Alameda and how it was using 668 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:36,200 essentially FTX customer funds in effect until October of 2022, 669 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,840 which was a month before it ultimately collapsed. 670 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,280 And that goes. In the telling of all the other 671 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,560 witnesses, he had a sense that things were, you know, going in 672 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:52,080 this direction since at least June, as early as at least June 673 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,960 of 2022. And that's just, you know, 674 00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:59,720 reconciling that statement with what we've heard from past 675 00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:04,160 witnesses is probably going to be a key point of focus for 676 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:05,840 prosecutors. The point? 677 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,640 Being, and This is why they needed those charts from Mr. 678 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,320 Pinsley that we spoke about earlier, is they kind of want to 679 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:15,440 make, you know, the prosecutors are going to want to show that 680 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:16,920 Sam knew that he was drawing money. 681 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:18,920 He knew about Alameda's finances. 682 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,200 And he knew that because of the levels of assets and liabilities 683 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,920 that you know, he had to be in effect drawing from customer 684 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,120 funds because Alameda just did not have enough and FTX did not 685 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:30,360 have enough of revenues to cover. 686 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,000 You know what he was drawing? Yeah, Which to me means I expect 687 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,680 we'll hear again about Alameda research using FTX customer 688 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:43,640 funds to buy back FTX equity before the series B1 before the 689 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:49,440 four 2069 round because that's way before all the other things. 690 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,160 And Carolyn already testified that that was using FTX customer 691 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,640 funds at Sam's explicit request. So I imagine we're going to hear 692 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,320 that in the cross issue that I've been coming. 693 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,360 Away with that, I've been noticing, is that and and you 694 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,960 can scroll through the comments section of any of our videos, 695 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,640 unfortunately, and see this is that there's this large swath of 696 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,520 the population. I'm not sure how much is 697 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,800 actually represented by the kind of weirdos that I interact with 698 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,280 on Twitter and on YouTube. There's this. 699 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,440 There seems to be this belief that. 700 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,320 Because of Sam's donations, because of his wealth, because 701 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,560 of his background, because of who his parents are, because of 702 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,960 who he knows he's going to get off. 703 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:32,920 He's not going to do any prison time. 704 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:37,840 And it's hard for me to reconcile that perspective with 705 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,320 the reality that I'm watching transpire in court. 706 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:47,600 I know that you have to be open to the idea that there's a 707 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,200 chance Sam Bankman, Freed doesn't do any prison time. 708 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:58,000 But can you kind of speak to how people feel about those odds in 709 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,160 the courtroom? And after watching this day in 710 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:02,800 and day out, things are not going. 711 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,960 Well, for Sam in court, my impression. 712 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,560 Is at. Least that I mean the concern. 713 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,880 That you hear about, you hear that maybe they could actually 714 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:18,240 file, you know, for for a mistrial because Judge Kaplan, 715 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:22,920 who is overseeing the case and have shot down a bunch of Sam's 716 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,520 proposed expert witnesses, frequently admonishes his 717 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,920 defense. You know, more so than the 718 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,640 prosecutors in court there. You know people think that if 719 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,120 there's any biased, it's. And I'm not backing this on 720 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,120 either end. But if there's any bias you you 721 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,280 hear in the courtroom, it's actually against Sam's team if 722 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,000 there's obviously some opaque. Pieces of our justice system 723 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,760 that I can't pretend to understand, but, you know, the 724 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,800 Southern District of New York, they are attack dogs. 725 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,360 They are known as, you know, some of the best, if not the 726 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:57,040 best prosecutors in the country. And the fact that they worked so 727 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,600 hard to get this case on some, you know, we can argue about 728 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,240 whether it even makes sense to be prosecuted in the Southern 729 00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:06,120 District of New York. It's kind of a random place, but 730 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,640 you know, the fact that it's being prosecuted there with this 731 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:14,400 judge, with these, you know. Assistant AGS It's just yeah 732 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,920 that does not square cast with my read and just. 733 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,440 To push back on that jurisdictional issue, I do want 734 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,440 to bring up the point that we had Cynthia Cooper on the show. 735 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:30,280 Gosh, I don't know. Maybe it was a year ago now and. 736 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,320 She was an auditor for the company Worldcom, which 737 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:38,600 collapsed due to fraud and that was also tried in SDNY from what 738 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:42,320 I can remember and the reason being money like that's the 739 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,560 reason, I mean financial crimes. Are frequently they're the best 740 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,680 at this kind of a thing. I'm more just saying that, like, 741 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:49,800 these are the best at prosecuting this kind of a 742 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,480 thing. And they didn't put him in some 743 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,000 random courtroom somewhere. They, you know, found a way to 744 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,360 get him in the best courtroom or the worst, you know, for him. 745 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,400 I mean it's useful for. The Southern District of New 746 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,280 York that like jurisdictionally at a certain level such a huge 747 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,120 portion of dollar transactions happen to run through banks in 748 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,440 their jurisdiction. They end up getting to say, 749 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,320 yeah, look at there's our Nexus. It's right there to just about 750 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:15,960 anything they want. The Nexus is Wall. 751 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,440 Street baby, are you happy? It's coming to an end. 752 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:19,400 Are you sad? Are you? 753 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,440 Is it a bittersweet moment or are you done with this? 754 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:24,440 Yeah, I mean it's. Been crazy. 755 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,960 It's been a really professionally. 756 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,760 Positive experience for me. I mean, I can't say like just 757 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,840 meeting all these really brilliant people that I've been 758 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,240 reading for a long time, working with my great colleagues, seeing 759 00:40:37,240 --> 00:40:41,200 our justice system and how it works for an extended period. 760 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,600 It's like watching the directors cut too of a movie. 761 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,720 Like that I've seen and know really, really well and now get 762 00:40:46,720 --> 00:40:49,000 to kind of lift the curtain on. So for all those reasons, it's 763 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,440 positive, you know, But it is like you take a step back, you 764 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,640 know there say what you want about Sam Bagman free. 765 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,720 There's a guy's life that's kind of at stake here or a a a big 766 00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:01,360 part of it. And if you'll, you know, the 767 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,400 atmosphere around it can feel a little bit odd at times. 768 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,480 Like 'cause it is fun being with your friends at like this kind 769 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,240 of a camp sort of setting almost like as we're waiting every 770 00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:11,280 morning. But I'm excited and seeing his 771 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,880 parents like whatever role they had, like they can't be having. 772 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,360 Good time. So it's just, you know, it's a 773 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:21,120 lot of people, you know, one person hurt or several people 774 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,200 hurt, a lot of people, but they're getting hurt too. 775 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,240 And kind of just seeing it all play out, it's not really the 776 00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:29,760 most uplifting environment. As for articles, please read our 777 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:31,440 coverage. We cover it live every single 778 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,720 day on Coin Desk. We have these articles that we 779 00:41:33,720 --> 00:41:35,960 just flesh out with as much detail as we can. 780 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,480 And then we do a newsletter that you can also subscribe to on our 781 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,000 site where we kind of do some more of like a step back take of 782 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:44,400 what happened and what to expect. 783 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,880 I mentioned Liz Lovato's article. 784 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,400 Katie Baker's another awesome reporter who's been covering 785 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,360 this everyday for The Ringer. There's so many you know there. 786 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,200 There's tons of really, really great. 787 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,480 No need to show. For them, they can show 788 00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,360 themselves. When they come on the podcast, 789 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,520 Oh yeah, they were. Literally on the podcast? 790 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,360 Well, no, we're. Fingers crossed that we get Liz 791 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,520 Lopato soon, but yes, Katie, Katie's been on and Liz has been 792 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:10,520 on before. Just before. 793 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:11,960 For the trial. Yes, yes, yes. 794 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,360 Thank you for coming on, Sam. It was a pleasure to have you. 795 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:20,640 And As for the I know there's an ongoing case cast coin versus 796 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:25,920 the Department of Justice and I will be taking the stand and the 797 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,800 gag order does not apply. You're. 798 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:30,920 You're suing the Department of Justice? 799 00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:34,280 Sorry. I guess I'm that's how involved 800 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,160 in the that's how involved in my own case I am right now. 801 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,640 I have not taken the advice of lawyers of my lawyers. 802 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,360 She's already spoken against me. Yeah. 803 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:44,800 Anyway, thank you. Thank you. 804 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,120 Sam. It's been a pleasure to have you 805 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:47,560 on. Thank you guys this. 806 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:48,320 Is a lot of fun.