1 00:00:05,300 --> 00:00:09,300 Welcome back everyone. I am Caspian Sea and I'm joined 2 00:00:09,300 --> 00:00:12,900 as usual by my partner in crime. Mr. Bennett Tomlin how are you 3 00:00:12,900 --> 00:00:14,200 today? I'm doing well. 4 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:20,100 How are you kiss breathing? Heavy trying to set this up here 5 00:00:20,100 --> 00:00:25,900 at home and it's been not the simplest procedure. 6 00:00:25,900 --> 00:00:27,800 It probably won't sound beautiful either. 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:32,400 But My new recording studio is taking longer than expected. 8 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,200 So, we'll make do for now. Today, we're talking about 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,600 Michael sailor microstrategy. Not only has Michael gotten into 10 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:45,200 a bit of hot water in relation to his taxes, but microstrategy 11 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,500 is really not been doing very well over the past year or so, I 12 00:00:48,500 --> 00:00:49,700 don't know. There's a lot of talk about the 13 00:00:49,700 --> 00:00:54,300 history, the current situation and why in a sense, a lot of 14 00:00:54,300 --> 00:00:59,800 this could have been seen when the buying of BTC started So 15 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:01,900 then it why don't you go ahead and get us started? 16 00:01:02,500 --> 00:01:06,100 Well, I was going to say that I think the most logical place for 17 00:01:06,100 --> 00:01:10,000 us to start is probably with the part about Michael sailu that 18 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:14,500 our audience is going to know the least about which is his 19 00:01:14,900 --> 00:01:20,600 encounters with the SEC and with microstrategy earlier in the 20 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,700 2000s and you wrote an article about that Cass. 21 00:01:23,900 --> 00:01:26,800 So could you actually give us a little bit of background on 22 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,400 Michael Sailors history before we get The part of the story 23 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,100 where he begins buying absurd amounts of Bitcoin with 24 00:01:33,100 --> 00:01:35,200 leverage, there's a longer version of this. 25 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,300 So I'm going to go ahead and tell the short version because I 26 00:01:37,300 --> 00:01:40,800 think the shorter version can get us started and can get us to 27 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,600 a place where the, the more thorough explanation of what 28 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:48,800 happened can be understood. But basically microstrategy was 29 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:56,600 formed in the late 1990s and was a premium stock during the.com 30 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,400 bubble. It, I'm not exactly sure. 31 00:01:59,500 --> 00:02:03,700 Sure, what the exact number was, but it did multiples, and I 32 00:02:03,700 --> 00:02:08,300 think it went up to something like, 350, 400 dollars a share 33 00:02:08,300 --> 00:02:11,400 from. I think it it IPO, dat six 34 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,300 dollars, something like that. There we go. 35 00:02:13,300 --> 00:02:15,000 Now I have it. It went all the way up to three 36 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:19,000 hundred and thirty, three dollars a share from its IPO 37 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,700 price of $6. So it shot up, it rocketed in up 38 00:02:22,700 --> 00:02:27,700 and price which was a pretty common theme in the late 1990s, 39 00:02:27,700 --> 00:02:31,500 early aughts, unfortunately, What occurred with microstrategy 40 00:02:31,500 --> 00:02:35,600 and Michael sailor was that after this huge uptick in their 41 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,600 price, there was accounting fraud which is a common theme 42 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:45,500 when it comes to the.com bubble and 1990s, late 1990s, stocks in 43 00:02:45,500 --> 00:02:48,700 general accounting, fraud was rampant. 44 00:02:48,700 --> 00:02:50,800 You look at Enron you look at Worldcom. 45 00:02:50,900 --> 00:02:55,500 This was a price PWC. Pricewaterhousecoopers. 46 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,000 And honestly, they played a bigger factor in role in this 47 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,700 then Mike. Gross strategy. 48 00:03:00,900 --> 00:03:04,600 Nonetheless the price plummeted back down to earth after that 49 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,500 and a lot of the issues were attributed to Michael Sailors, 50 00:03:08,500 --> 00:03:11,400 kind of Reckless Behavior. What they did was they miss 51 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:16,700 stated their profits and their margins in general during the 52 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:24,100 1999 quarterly's and it deeply affected their stock. 53 00:03:24,100 --> 00:03:27,700 And up until that point, I believe it was the largest 54 00:03:27,700 --> 00:03:32,700 single-day stock loss. In US history that has been 55 00:03:32,700 --> 00:03:36,600 surpassed now I think by meta actually but in in terms of 56 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:41,200 value lost but it was one of the largest losses ever we've talked 57 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:42,400 about. Like, when we did our and Men 58 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,500 episode with David's, Amorous about how part of what Enron was 59 00:03:45,500 --> 00:03:48,800 doing, was getting real Trixie with how they recognized their 60 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:50,700 revenue, right? To try to recognize Revenue. 61 00:03:50,700 --> 00:03:54,700 That was not as guaranteed as they wanted to pretend it was. 62 00:03:54,700 --> 00:03:56,900 And that was part of what Michael sailor was doing as 63 00:03:56,900 --> 00:03:59,300 well, right? Is that they were recognizing 64 00:03:59,300 --> 00:04:00,800 Revenue. From deals that it just 65 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,400 immediately Bennington. Even deals that had not been 66 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,700 completely signed yet in order to try to maintain the illusion 67 00:04:06,700 --> 00:04:09,700 that they were this profitable Enterprise during the.com 68 00:04:09,700 --> 00:04:11,800 bubble. And I think this is important 69 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,900 now in the context of microstrategy in 2022. 70 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:16,300 We talked about this a little bit. 71 00:04:16,300 --> 00:04:19,600 When Francine McKenna was on, is that Michael sailor? 72 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,300 Had another little run-in with the SEC recently surrounding his 73 00:04:23,300 --> 00:04:25,100 accounting treatment of his assets again? 74 00:04:25,100 --> 00:04:28,900 Where the SEC had to tell him that the way microstrategy was 75 00:04:28,900 --> 00:04:31,000 trying to report there? Bitcoin Holdings was not 76 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,500 appropriate and that they were going to need to mark them to 77 00:04:34,500 --> 00:04:37,800 Market. And so like right now today on 78 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,800 September 20th, we're looking at microstrategy having Mark to 79 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,800 Market losses on their Bitcoin of about 1.5 billion dollars. 80 00:04:45,100 --> 00:04:48,200 And so I think that it's important to start with that 81 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,400 part of Michael Sailors history. His accounting Shenanigans back 82 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,800 in the.com bubble because the SEC seems concerned that he 83 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,000 might still be up to some accounting Shenanigans. 84 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:58,000 Yeah. I mean, we might as well get 85 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,200 specific about what he did in the late. 90s. 86 00:05:00,500 --> 00:05:03,900 He left contracts blank so that he could fill them in later. 87 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:09,000 And basically, reach quarterly estimates, he would count sales 88 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,900 for services sales for software and he would do barter 89 00:05:13,900 --> 00:05:17,900 transactions as sales. So, all of this stuff is, you 90 00:05:17,900 --> 00:05:24,500 know, legally, well one not allowed, but to I think it's 91 00:05:24,500 --> 00:05:27,300 understood. Accountants, should know better 92 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,700 than to allow that kind of Stuff to happen. 93 00:05:30,700 --> 00:05:32,600 So that's what happened in the 90s. 94 00:05:32,700 --> 00:05:37,200 They forced microstrategy to correct those quarterly earnings 95 00:05:37,900 --> 00:05:40,500 once they were restated. They were restated significantly 96 00:05:40,500 --> 00:05:44,000 lower and got rid of almost instantly, got rid of all of 97 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,800 their profits and that nearly bankrupted microstrategy, it 98 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:54,100 definitely wasn't. Illegal enough to say, Force, 99 00:05:54,300 --> 00:06:01,600 Michael sailor to never work as a, the CEO, or executive of any 100 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:03,900 form, for a publicly traded company. 101 00:06:04,100 --> 00:06:07,600 It did harm the microstrategy name and then they had to sell 102 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,700 junk bonds to cover the fines and all of that stuff. 103 00:06:11,700 --> 00:06:15,900 So, it wasn't good, it was very Reckless. 104 00:06:16,300 --> 00:06:21,100 And when I wrote my piece, three years ago, 23 years ago now, Oh 105 00:06:21,108 --> 00:06:25,100 my, my point was not that anything. 106 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,000 Michael sailor was going to do anything illegal but that he 107 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:33,200 clearly had a reckless drive that he was willing to make 108 00:06:33,900 --> 00:06:37,200 careless Reckless kind of decisions to reach whatever 109 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:41,600 goals, he deemed necessary. So in the context of Michael 110 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,300 sailor, being the kind of person willing to bet it all to reach, 111 00:06:44,300 --> 00:06:46,300 whatever goals, he thinks are necessary. 112 00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:48,800 Let's talk about how he is transformed. 113 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:53,500 What's ostensibly a business intelligence Corporation into a 114 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:58,800 leveraged investment vehicle for Bitcoin, where he has converted, 115 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,600 all the spare cash in his company's treasury into Bitcoin. 116 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,600 And has now taken out multiple bonds through multiple different 117 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:09,300 subsidiaries and stuff to continually double down on this 118 00:07:09,300 --> 00:07:12,800 Bitcoin bet currently mark-to-market down about 1.5 119 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,300 billion dollars but that didn't stop Michael sailor today from 120 00:07:16,300 --> 00:07:18,700 purchasing another 6 million dollars worth. 121 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,600 It's unclear how much a six million dollar purchase is going 122 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,600 to help against 1.5 billion in losses, but Michael sailor will 123 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,700 persist until the heat death of the universe. 124 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:32,400 Yeah, he's been making some pretty amazing comments over the 125 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,600 course of this. All he also clearly does like a 126 00:07:35,608 --> 00:07:39,900 quota day where he takes from his quoted, a calendar and just 127 00:07:39,900 --> 00:07:44,400 inserts the word Bitcoin into the quote, which is annoying. 128 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,800 But to be fair, he doesn't have very many original thoughts and 129 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:49,800 so taking it from the calendar helps. 130 00:07:50,700 --> 00:07:52,200 Well, I mean, Let's be fair, though. 131 00:07:53,700 --> 00:07:59,100 Originality, I do think that what he has decided to do with 132 00:07:59,100 --> 00:08:02,000 microstrategy is original. It's awesome. 133 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:06,300 It is unique. I don't know if it is a good 134 00:08:06,300 --> 00:08:09,600 idea. It's essentially, I mean as you 135 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,600 said, I think microstrategy has become more or less a Bitcoin 136 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,600 ETF. It's it doesn't no one cares 137 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,900 about its business anymore. I was trying to make this point. 138 00:08:21,100 --> 00:08:26,200 To some Bitcoin maximalist. Today, a person who's taking 139 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:31,000 their excess, individual excess funds that they've been saving 140 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,799 and decides to put them into Bitcoin and is willing to hold 141 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:36,000 on to that Bitcoin. Let's say forever that they're 142 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,799 going to pass this on to their children or their children's 143 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:41,299 children, or you know, whatever that's fine. 144 00:08:41,299 --> 00:08:44,000 Like, I'm not going to tell someone, it's like somebody who 145 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,300 it's like Peter Schiff and his gold bet, you know, it's like 146 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,100 okay, like if your only concern in life is inflation or 147 00:08:50,100 --> 00:08:52,500 whatever. I guess you can do whatever you 148 00:08:52,500 --> 00:08:53,600 want. I'm not going to tell you how to 149 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,900 spend your money, but when you're a business and you and 150 00:08:57,900 --> 00:09:02,600 you make this decision to purchase an asset and hold it, 151 00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:10,200 Indefinitely obviously, the goal then is that this asset needs to 152 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,700 appreciate in value either. So you can take out loans 153 00:09:12,700 --> 00:09:17,300 against it or so that you can sell it make a profit and use 154 00:09:17,300 --> 00:09:19,300 the money to reinvest in your company. 155 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:23,500 But essentially what Michael sailor, I mean, he's taken out 156 00:09:23,500 --> 00:09:26,800 debt against his company but the value of the Bitcoin is not 157 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:28,400 appreciated. Yeah, yeah. 158 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,900 It's a little bit. Like we talked about with Frank 159 00:09:30,900 --> 00:09:34,200 musi in El Salvador with the Bitcoin Band wear it for a 160 00:09:34,208 --> 00:09:35,500 while. They talked about having like a, 161 00:09:35,500 --> 00:09:39,200 oh, the local small electricity provider be the issuer of the 162 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,700 bond and take on this Bitcoin and what it ended up doing is 163 00:09:41,700 --> 00:09:45,000 fundamentally transforming Leo's balance sheet and so it 164 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,900 effectively became this weird Bitcoin thing. 165 00:09:47,900 --> 00:09:50,900 Instead of really no electricity provider and that's what Michael 166 00:09:50,900 --> 00:09:53,500 sailor has done with microstrategy he's transformed 167 00:09:53,500 --> 00:09:58,500 it into this leverage bet on bitcoin, that isn't an ETF 168 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:00,800 doesn't follow the same regulations as an ETF. 169 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:05,700 Isn't a registered like funder that Is ostensibly a business 170 00:10:05,700 --> 00:10:10,700 that has clients and sells software and pays employees but 171 00:10:10,700 --> 00:10:13,900 its balance sheet is overshadowed by this massive 172 00:10:13,900 --> 00:10:17,500 leverage bet on bitcoin and sailor from the position of CEO 173 00:10:17,500 --> 00:10:20,400 is basically argued. This was our only choice we 174 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,900 couldn't reinvest in our business because obviously 175 00:10:22,900 --> 00:10:25,800 Bitcoin is better than our business is effectively what he 176 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:27,800 said on. Laura shins Unchained podcast a 177 00:10:27,808 --> 00:10:31,100 business has two pieces, your right hand, your left hand, the 178 00:10:31,100 --> 00:10:34,300 right hand is your p&l, your left hand, Your balance sheet, 179 00:10:34,700 --> 00:10:37,200 okay? So you can grow the business by 180 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,700 growing the p&l 20%, a year, or 30 or 50, or 100 percent a year, 181 00:10:41,700 --> 00:10:43,900 if your genius, that's, that's hard. 182 00:10:44,300 --> 00:10:47,700 I mean, you can do it that way. You can also accumulate 183 00:10:47,700 --> 00:10:50,600 shareholder value by growing, the balance sheet by ten twenty, 184 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,300 thirty percent a year. If you told me Bitcoin was going 185 00:10:53,300 --> 00:10:56,500 to grow by 20% a year, I would think. 186 00:10:56,500 --> 00:10:58,700 Well, if you're going to grow by 20% a year, and you have two 187 00:10:58,700 --> 00:11:00,700 billion dollars on your balance sheet, then you're going to 188 00:11:00,700 --> 00:11:03,000 generate four hundred million dollars in. 189 00:11:03,700 --> 00:11:09,000 In investment income or or shareholder wealth in the 12 190 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,100 months. That's a lot easier than 191 00:11:12,100 --> 00:11:15,100 doubling. Well, if we double the revenue, 192 00:11:15,100 --> 00:11:16,700 the company we still couldn't do that. 193 00:11:16,700 --> 00:11:19,000 Right, right. Like we would have to crease the 194 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,900 Revenant accompanied by a factor of five. 195 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,100 Yeah. Okay. 196 00:11:23,100 --> 00:11:26,700 So you know there you can compete that way or compete the 197 00:11:26,700 --> 00:11:28,800 other way. I mean, some people, you know, 198 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,600 some people kind of get Eric to like it's like, you're cheating 199 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,800 by making money and easy way that it would have hurt our 200 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,300 shareholders, for me, to try to use this money to grow 201 00:11:37,300 --> 00:11:40,100 microstrategy, because I can't grow, G. 202 00:11:40,100 --> 00:11:42,400 But Bitcoin is never going to, I don't see. 203 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,400 Bitcoin is having a downturn is another thing. 204 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,700 He said I've done 80% downturn I don't think it's a speculative 205 00:11:47,700 --> 00:11:51,200 asset and I don't think you can. You can quote unquote, take 206 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,200 money off the table. And so I see it is going like up 207 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,000 and up and up forever. And so when you think like that, 208 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,900 technically Superior asset class compared to the dollar, the 209 00:12:00,900 --> 00:12:05,200 Euro, the peso the bowl of are compared to a stock index 210 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,100 compared to Gold compared to Silver compared to everything. 211 00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:12,300 You can conceivably by It is technically thermodynamically 212 00:12:12,300 --> 00:12:16,100 Superior as an asset and when Lake sailor you have enough 213 00:12:16,100 --> 00:12:18,300 shares to vote things however you want. 214 00:12:18,300 --> 00:12:21,800 You end up transforming your publicly traded business 215 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:26,800 intelligence company into a levered Bitcoin thing and that's 216 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:28,500 weird that climbs the best crypto last. 217 00:12:28,500 --> 00:12:31,700 Okay what's the second best? There is no second best. 218 00:12:32,100 --> 00:12:33,900 There's no second best crypto acid. 219 00:12:33,900 --> 00:12:36,900 There's a crypto asset is called bit quite right and not only is 220 00:12:36,900 --> 00:12:42,000 it weird but I as I stating again, like businesses need cash 221 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,900 flow, like to be a successful business, you need cash flow. 222 00:12:44,900 --> 00:12:48,600 You need cash in and cash out like even if you're like a lot 223 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,100 of companies operate at a loss for a significant period of 224 00:12:51,100 --> 00:12:53,400 time, right? But what they're doing is 225 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:58,700 they're making sales, they're doing things that are bringing 226 00:12:58,700 --> 00:13:01,900 in money even if they're costing them money to to bring that 227 00:13:01,900 --> 00:13:04,800 money in. And if you're giving up on your 228 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:11,600 primary cash flow, and your new purpose is as a vehicle for a, 229 00:13:11,700 --> 00:13:15,100 let's say a commodity, right? We'll call it a commodity, a 230 00:13:15,100 --> 00:13:19,000 vehicle for a commodity. It kind of hog ties you and it 231 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,200 dot. And now you're depending on that 232 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:26,200 commodity to go up in value because not only are you spot 233 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,500 buying this thing, but you are making levered bets, as you 234 00:13:29,500 --> 00:13:33,200 said, right? Because he is taken out bonds to 235 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,900 accomplish these purchases. Yes, yes. 236 00:13:36,900 --> 00:13:40,500 And like we talked about this a little bit when James safer it 237 00:13:40,508 --> 00:13:42,300 was on discussing the Bitcoin ETF. 238 00:13:42,300 --> 00:13:48,600 We're like the, the scc's failure with microstrategy has 239 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,500 effectively become like at multiple levels. 240 00:13:51,500 --> 00:13:52,900 Right? Like sailor. 241 00:13:52,900 --> 00:13:57,100 Didn't get a dno ban in 2000 and so because of that, he's still 242 00:13:57,100 --> 00:13:59,700 able to be a director and officer of this company, right? 243 00:13:59,700 --> 00:14:03,300 And do all these things. The SEC has not approved. 244 00:14:03,300 --> 00:14:07,700 A spot Bitcoin ETF and So micro strategy becomes a more 245 00:14:07,700 --> 00:14:11,000 compelling option for investors who want spot exposure to 246 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,500 bitcoin despite the fact that it's a dumb way to get that 247 00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:18,300 investment, right? And so like because the SEC has 248 00:14:18,300 --> 00:14:21,200 been trying to use the Bitcoin ETF as leverage so that they can 249 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,600 get surveillance agreements. With all the exchanges and gain 250 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,400 de facto regulatory control over the crypto industry, they have 251 00:14:28,500 --> 00:14:32,700 allowed microstrategy to take this strange position and suck 252 00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:35,700 up this part of the market. Well, still allowing Dealer with 253 00:14:35,700 --> 00:14:39,100 this history of dubious accounting practices to continue 254 00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:42,500 to operate in that way. And so yeah, Seiler says wild, 255 00:14:42,500 --> 00:14:44,500 there is no second best things in Sailor. 256 00:14:44,500 --> 00:14:47,800 Does dumb things but our current Regulatory and enforcement 257 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,700 apparatus has created an environment. 258 00:14:49,700 --> 00:14:53,800 Where sailor doing those things is good for sailor and possibly 259 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,300 good for microstrategy and while not necessarily good for 260 00:14:57,300 --> 00:15:00,400 consumers. It is providing something to 261 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,700 Consumers that there is otherwise no way for them to 262 00:15:03,700 --> 00:15:05,500 necessarily have access. Us too. 263 00:15:05,500 --> 00:15:08,800 Not that I would ever if you want exposure to bitcoin, that 264 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,600 would be the last way. I would suggest you try to seek 265 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,400 it out, but for traditional Finance, folks. 266 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,400 It might in some sense look attractive. 267 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,100 So it is, it is a big regulatory failure. 268 00:15:24,100 --> 00:15:28,100 That's absolutely what it is and I hadn't necessarily considered 269 00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:32,000 that aspect of it, but, but it absolutely is a regulatory 270 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,600 failure and it sucks that. Yeah, the way that traditional 271 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,800 Finance, people have to seek out any exposure to this weather on 272 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:45,700 the upside or downside is to is to invest in either companies 273 00:15:45,700 --> 00:15:50,200 like microstrategy, which had pivoted from a small but at 274 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:56,800 least defined business to a commodity holding company or 275 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:02,900 like, you know, blockchain mining companies which I seem to 276 00:16:02,900 --> 00:16:07,700 fail all the time. So who have to basically 277 00:16:08,500 --> 00:16:13,400 constantly be buying but have to sell high and not sell low. 278 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,400 It has made it incredibly difficult for can traditional 279 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,200 consumers to have that exposure that they would want. 280 00:16:19,300 --> 00:16:22,100 I guess there's more options now with things like Robin Hood and 281 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,500 the gamification of Finance allowing people to have exposure 282 00:16:25,500 --> 00:16:30,500 to just Bitcoin or etherium, or these other other things without 283 00:16:30,500 --> 00:16:34,000 having to buy any ETF or whatever. 284 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:38,400 But can't I would assume you wouldn't want to have a large 285 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,200 position. On Robin Hood or whatever. 286 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,500 Yeah, I certainly wanted. And yeah, before we move on from 287 00:16:46,500 --> 00:16:50,300 some of these Bitcoin B I just want to really pause and 288 00:16:50,300 --> 00:16:55,100 emphasize for moment, how strange it is that the chief 289 00:16:55,100 --> 00:16:58,800 executive officer at the time and executive chairman of a 290 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,600 corporation said, the best way for us to return Capital to 291 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,200 shareholders is not to do a stock buyback. 292 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,400 We don't think microstrategy is undervalued. 293 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,000 We don't want to buy more of our own stock was not to do it. 294 00:17:10,099 --> 00:17:13,800 Evidence was not to give this cash directly back to Consumers, 295 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,700 was not to invest in growing microstrategy. 296 00:17:16,700 --> 00:17:20,400 He explicitly said he wasn't sure that was a worthwhile thing 297 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:25,500 to do and was instead for him to go out and purchase Bitcoin to 298 00:17:25,500 --> 00:17:29,500 effectively prop trade the entire corporations, balance 299 00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:32,100 sheet. Well well we have cash. 300 00:17:32,300 --> 00:17:35,100 We're going to have cash. You can't use cash to grow the 301 00:17:35,100 --> 00:17:38,500 company anymore. What can you do with the cash? 302 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,300 You can either buy the stock back, you can dip it in it back 303 00:17:43,300 --> 00:17:46,500 to the shareholders or you can invest it. 304 00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:48,300 What are you going to invested in? 305 00:17:48,300 --> 00:17:52,300 Well, how about an asset inflation hedge that you can't 306 00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:57,100 make any more of pure? Monetary energy was the best way 307 00:17:57,100 --> 00:18:00,100 for him to return Capital to shareholders is effectively what 308 00:18:00,100 --> 00:18:04,400 he said in the unchanging of you and that is a very strange thing 309 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,200 for an executive to say about the corporation, they run. 310 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,800 Like when you really get down to it, it to say that our ability 311 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:15,500 to produce things to earn value is less than the ability of this 312 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:20,100 asset to accrue value that no matter how hard we work, we are 313 00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:25,000 worse than this asset is a telling thing for an executive 314 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:30,700 to say, well, I think what it boils down to is his they's our 315 00:18:30,700 --> 00:18:34,700 convictions that this guy, the reason, our second-best giving 316 00:18:34,700 --> 00:18:37,900 him essentially the benefit of the doubt by saying this is to 317 00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:42,900 suggest that Is religious. He is a religious zealot about 318 00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:48,900 Bitcoin and you know, Faith. Absolutely blinds you. 319 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:55,800 And so I think The things that come out of his mouth from, you 320 00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:02,000 know, mortgage your house and buy Bitcoin to put in is cyber 321 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,800 when it's all of it. And then and then to continue to 322 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:11,600 say that stuff while you're being charged with tax fraud, 323 00:19:13,900 --> 00:19:16,600 it's just it's just kind of crazy to me, the amount of 324 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:19,500 essentially fights Financial advice. 325 00:19:19,500 --> 00:19:22,900 Like I don't know how else to describe it other than He's 326 00:19:22,908 --> 00:19:25,500 basically Financial advice what? He's suggesting. 327 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:33,600 And yeah, like like you said, it's a guy who says my business 328 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,900 is not as worthwhile as this religion that I follow. 329 00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:43,400 It's like, he doesn't want to be in the publicly traded business 330 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:48,000 world anymore and who knows maybe with the continuing 331 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:53,000 devaluation of Bitcoin that could be a very real 332 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,700 possibility? Well, he is no longer the chief 333 00:19:55,700 --> 00:19:59,300 executive of a business intelligence company, right. 334 00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:01,000 He stepped on, to talk about that. 335 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,300 I want to talk about that because I don't think he, I 336 00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:05,500 don't think that. I don't think he stepped down 337 00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:09,200 in. I don't think it was because I 338 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,900 think the reasoning at the time was that he didn't need to be 339 00:20:11,900 --> 00:20:13,800 there for day-to-day operations anymore. 340 00:20:14,100 --> 00:20:19,600 But suspiciously that happened to three weeks before the tax 341 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,600 fraud. I wanted thing was announced and 342 00:20:26,500 --> 00:20:31,600 and yeah I just I just I'm curious if he knew, I'm curious 343 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,000 if he knew what was coming and decided it would be best if he 344 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,900 decides, if he stepped away as CEO. 345 00:20:37,900 --> 00:20:40,200 But I also know that he's still He's the chairman of the board 346 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,500 and holds all the controlling interest of this company so it 347 00:20:42,500 --> 00:20:45,200 really doesn't mean much. No, it really doesn't and let's 348 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,800 talk about the alleged tax evasion for a moment because it 349 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:53,500 is a fun story. So recently the the Washington 350 00:20:53,500 --> 00:20:57,300 d.c. attorney general announced that they were going after 351 00:20:57,300 --> 00:21:00,200 sailor for possible income tax evasion. 352 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,200 And what's really interesting about it is that it's based on a 353 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:09,800 whistleblower tip someone in sailors She'll circular, 354 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:14,800 something like that. Determined, that he was not 355 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,600 paying income taxes in DC, but was spending more than half of 356 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,200 his days there, which means he's supposed to be paying his income 357 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,300 taxes in DC and this person who knows sailor and heard sailor 358 00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:32,400 Bragg allegedly about trying to evade these taxes reported him 359 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,600 in order to get the Whistleblower rewards. 360 00:21:35,900 --> 00:21:41,100 And so now sailor is looking at having going to explain why he 361 00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:44,800 hasn't paid any income taxes in DC and like the last decade and 362 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,800 the additional wrinkle is that there's a whole bunch of other 363 00:21:48,300 --> 00:21:52,000 Silicon Valley, and other billionaires who have moved to 364 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,200 Florida recently in a lot. The same way sailor has and I 365 00:21:56,208 --> 00:21:59,800 wonder how many of them are spending at least half of the 366 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,100 total days of the calendar year at their Florida houses. 367 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:12,400 Yeah, you gotta have some serious enemies for people to be 368 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,700 willing to take you out or something like that. 369 00:22:15,700 --> 00:22:18,700 So strange to me, because because we keep talking about 370 00:22:18,700 --> 00:22:21,500 this, like, if you're gonna do something illegal, we talked 371 00:22:21,500 --> 00:22:24,200 about it. With, with the North Korea, 372 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,300 what's his name? Thank you, Virgil Griffith, we 373 00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:31,900 talked about it. We've talked about it just just 374 00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:34,400 for all the criminals, he talked about it with them retro. 375 00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:38,300 Old Fowler. And just it's just embarrassing 376 00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:42,100 that these people do these incredibly illegal things in. 377 00:22:42,100 --> 00:22:45,000 Like the one thing you don't do is brag about the illegal things 378 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,000 you're doing, don't brag about it. 379 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:52,000 Just don't talk about it. And instead they have to talk 380 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,400 about it, they have to it's like that part in The Wire about the 381 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,300 the paper trail is you taking notes on a criminal fucking 382 00:22:59,300 --> 00:23:01,700 conspiracy. Fuck is you thinking, man? 383 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,800 Right? That they all feel compelled and 384 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,200 like we can go back to our Silk Road and we talked about it with 385 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,900 Nicholas Weaver, right? Is that he had this entire log 386 00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:16,200 on his computer describing all of his illegal actions and like 387 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,500 who he was doing them with and like timestamps for all the 388 00:23:19,500 --> 00:23:22,800 illegal things he did and like there were other problems with 389 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,100 that prosecution. Let's not pretend it was perfect 390 00:23:25,100 --> 00:23:30,000 but like There are a shocking number of these individuals who 391 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,800 for example, brag about their new house in DC will claiming to 392 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,800 tax authorities, they live in Florida. 393 00:23:35,900 --> 00:23:39,300 And another great example was like r as lacan with her bag 394 00:23:39,300 --> 00:23:40,700 that it was labeled burner phone. 395 00:23:40,700 --> 00:23:45,100 Like you can't remember that. It's your burner phone, that's 396 00:23:45,100 --> 00:23:47,100 not something. You can't just remember, I mean 397 00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:52,200 it's a pluck with nine cell phones and it was, oh, you know, 398 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,900 I so so that's criminals are clearly sloppy. 399 00:23:57,900 --> 00:24:00,600 Or at least I guess the ones that get caught our sloppy. 400 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,300 We don't know how many are actually doing a really bang-up 401 00:24:03,300 --> 00:24:07,200 job of not announcing their criminal actions and then not 402 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,200 getting caught for them. So so maybe there's plenty of 403 00:24:09,208 --> 00:24:12,700 that going on to and means to those people who can shut their 404 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,800 fucking mouth. We kind of do because every few 405 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,900 years one of their law firms end up having a bunch of their files 406 00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:22,100 turned over to the icij. And then we go, oh my God, all 407 00:24:22,100 --> 00:24:24,900 these people are silently committing tax evasion and all 408 00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:28,100 these other Financial crimes, but they were getting away with 409 00:24:28,100 --> 00:24:30,800 it because they were silent and they continue to get away with 410 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,800 it because our society is structurally bad at Prosecuting, 411 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,300 that kind of thing, right? I think microstrategy and sailor 412 00:24:37,300 --> 00:24:46,700 are a fascinating example of like how how history doesn't 413 00:24:46,700 --> 00:24:52,800 repeat, but it certainly Rhymes and that you didn't need to be a 414 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:58,900 genius to look at the way. Michael sailor conducted himself 415 00:24:58,900 --> 00:25:02,700 and his business before. All of this Bitcoin, buying 416 00:25:02,700 --> 00:25:07,900 happened to realize that there's probably going to be some issues 417 00:25:07,900 --> 00:25:12,600 down the road here. Even if God bless there, weren't 418 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:17,300 any the way he goes about doing that. 419 00:25:17,300 --> 00:25:23,400 Business is incredibly Reckless. And that's proven true. 420 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,800 And I just want to emphasize that I think Michael sailor is a 421 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,400 really bad thing for Bitcoin. Like, even ignoring the fact 422 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,200 that he's concentrated this much of the state. 423 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,800 He's become such an important figure head and he says, such 424 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,900 shockingly dumb things. Like we talked about a little 425 00:25:40,900 --> 00:25:43,300 bit back in episode 21. The reason you and I found 426 00:25:43,300 --> 00:25:46,300 Bitcoin interesting and still continue to find Bitcoin. 427 00:25:46,300 --> 00:25:48,400 Interesting. Is that there was this 428 00:25:49,700 --> 00:25:52,800 Compelling in somewhat unique vision of this censorship 429 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,000 resistant transfer of value, right? 430 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,700 And that's a thing that not a lot of other things can claim. 431 00:25:58,700 --> 00:26:01,600 They've got the ability to do and Bitcoins, not Flawless in 432 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,800 that regard, but that's what makes it interesting and 433 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,700 valuable. But Michael sailor in interviews 434 00:26:06,700 --> 00:26:10,400 and stuff tells people who like says that he doesn't care about 435 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,400 that anarcho-capitalist, Stephanie thinks that they 436 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,100 should celebrate. All these institutions coming in 437 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,300 all the crypto Anarchist shall be freaked. 438 00:26:18,300 --> 00:26:20,600 Out that there are some regulations ation and all the 439 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,700 people at BlackRock and pemko and Phi, delta T that have more 440 00:26:24,700 --> 00:26:26,900 money than God will say. Okay, well it's safe. 441 00:26:26,900 --> 00:26:28,900 Now, we might as well buy a hundred billion of it. 442 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:31,800 Right? What I say to the crypto a 443 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:36,100 darkest is why don't you just get along with the institutions 444 00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:39,000 in the corporation's for now. Hold your nose and when you've 445 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,700 made billions of dollars or tens of billions take all your money, 446 00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:45,500 buy an island, start your own country and do it your way and 447 00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:48,200 that they're benefiting from Wall Street owning more and more 448 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:53,900 of the Bitcoin and Just seems so antithetical, to all of the 449 00:26:53,900 --> 00:26:57,000 things that make Bitcoin interesting that all the things 450 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,000 that make Bitcoin potentially worthwhile, Michael Sailors, 451 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,000 stands opposed to basically all of them except tax evasion. 452 00:27:06,300 --> 00:27:09,600 He'll probably start being opposed to more and more stuff 453 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:14,400 as these charges. Get move forward, maybe but 454 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,000 maybe he'll go full Patrick Byrne and start tweeting about 455 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,300 the Deep State. I I hope so. 456 00:27:19,500 --> 00:27:24,700 So I hope I die do. I hope I hope that is true but I 457 00:27:24,708 --> 00:27:26,200 don't know what the commentary is here. 458 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,200 Other than we have never done a full episode on, Michael sailor. 459 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:35,100 I don't think either one of us expects him to, you know, do 460 00:27:35,100 --> 00:27:38,400 jail time or expects him to. I don't even think he 461 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,900 necessarily, I don't think he necessarily bankrupts 462 00:27:41,900 --> 00:27:45,300 microstrategy or anything like that. 463 00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:48,900 He brings a lot of attention to himself and it's always for 464 00:27:48,900 --> 00:27:53,800 kind. Of. questionable decision 465 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:59,700 making, I think, Listen, the shit is cyclical. 466 00:28:00,100 --> 00:28:02,600 There's a good chance. Bitcoin will go back up. 467 00:28:02,900 --> 00:28:06,700 Microstrategy will be back in the green and they'll be okay or 468 00:28:06,700 --> 00:28:10,200 alternatively. It's like as we mentioned, 469 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,200 Michael sailor, has the controlling shares they have 470 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,400 enough assets. They can push their liquidation 471 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,200 price down into the three thousands if they need to if 472 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,100 Michael sailor stays in control and stays committed to bitcoin, 473 00:28:23,100 --> 00:28:26,000 there's no second best he can write it in his As long as it 474 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,900 doesn't hit that liquidation price he might make it out, 475 00:28:28,900 --> 00:28:32,500 okay? It is just I think fundamentally 476 00:28:32,500 --> 00:28:37,300 stupid to transform a business intelligence firm into this 477 00:28:37,300 --> 00:28:42,300 weird special purpose, entity thing for investing in Bitcoin, 478 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,900 it is like regulatory, not how that type of thing is supposed 479 00:28:46,900 --> 00:28:50,600 to be structured. And as a business, it is often 480 00:28:50,900 --> 00:28:54,700 the interests of the thing you're holding can and will 481 00:28:54,700 --> 00:28:57,900 often run like Owner to the interests of growing The Core 482 00:28:57,900 --> 00:29:00,900 Business. And so it's just stupid. 483 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,400 It doesn't mean it's not going to work stupid things, work all 484 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:04,700 the time. That doesn't mean they're not 485 00:29:04,700 --> 00:29:09,300 stupid, it speaks volumes as to like you said before his 486 00:29:09,300 --> 00:29:13,700 confidence in his own company which is to suggest. 487 00:29:13,700 --> 00:29:15,300 He doesn't have any confidence in it. 488 00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:20,500 That's why he's gone and made it something completely different 489 00:29:20,500 --> 00:29:25,700 than what it it has been for 20 plus years, I would say You're 490 00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:28,700 right in that, maybe it, maybe one day, it has to go. 491 00:29:28,700 --> 00:29:32,100 Private or maybe who knows what ends up happening to it in the 492 00:29:32,100 --> 00:29:36,700 end but you can't as a publicly traded company. 493 00:29:36,900 --> 00:29:39,500 Have that same low time. Preference that bitcoiners 494 00:29:39,500 --> 00:29:43,200 always tell tell everyone else they need to have like oh who 495 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,800 cares? If it's trading it 20,000 right 496 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,300 now. When in 10 years it will be 497 00:29:48,300 --> 00:29:51,000 worth a million or ten million or 100 million. 498 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,100 Well, when you're a business and you have to pay employees, Need 499 00:29:56,100 --> 00:29:59,600 to pay down debts and you have to literally take care of 500 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,300 business every day, not all of your time, preference can be 501 00:30:03,300 --> 00:30:07,000 about what's going to happen in a decade for you as an 502 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:07,900 individual. It can. 503 00:30:08,300 --> 00:30:12,900 But this is why centering your business around an asset that is 504 00:30:12,900 --> 00:30:16,300 supposed to be the new gold. It's not viable really. 505 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,900 This is a very dumb decision, it's not viable. 506 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,800 I don't know, having some gold or some some Bitcoin or some 507 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,600 whatever some some It in reserves for a company. 508 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,500 I guess, as a hedge could be fine if it's a very small 509 00:30:31,500 --> 00:30:34,900 percentage but that is not. That is not at all. 510 00:30:34,900 --> 00:30:39,100 What is happening here? And yeah, it hasn't worked out 511 00:30:39,100 --> 00:30:42,000 so far. So listen, like Square /, block, 512 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,400 whatever you want to call Jack dorsey's company. 513 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,000 They put a small percentage of their balance sheet in Bitcoin, 514 00:30:48,500 --> 00:30:53,200 they are working on bitcoin. I don't know that it's the best 515 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,200 corporate decision ever but I think it's a totally Sybil one 516 00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,400 right Tesla putting their money into Bitcoin a bit more dumb and 517 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,500 a bit less defensible microstrategy. 518 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,000 Like you said, isn't doing that, they are selling millions and 519 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,700 millions of dollars, actively trying to sell another half a 520 00:31:09,700 --> 00:31:13,500 billion dollars in bonds, so that they can continue to just 521 00:31:13,500 --> 00:31:17,300 warp their balance sheet. Yeah, it stinks. 522 00:31:17,300 --> 00:31:19,400 You know what it stinks of is, kind of like a three arrows 523 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:24,400 Capital supercycle bullshit number has to go up. 524 00:31:24,500 --> 00:31:26,100 And because of that. At faith. 525 00:31:26,100 --> 00:31:29,600 It will go up and that unfortunately isn't how markets 526 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,600 actually work and like in the so in the Lord should interview 527 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,200 that Michael sailor. Did back in at the beginning of 528 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,600 2021. He said like he couldn't even 529 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,700 imagine Bitcoin going through an 80% Draught. 530 00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:45,100 I don't expect an 80% downturn, right? 531 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,000 And we peaked this cycle, it wet 64 and velvety hit a low of like 532 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,100 18 which is like what a 70% draw down. 533 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,500 Like he clearly is not structurally. 534 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,600 Early thinking, he's not thinking clearly and coherently 535 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,500 about the risks and about the about how things could go wrong. 536 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,100 And that's just clear by the amount of embedded, leverage. 537 00:32:06,100 --> 00:32:09,500 She's creating That's it. Yeah, that's the difference. 538 00:32:09,500 --> 00:32:14,100 That's the big difference and I think it is that the advice of 539 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,500 really, unless you know exactly what you're doing and you know 540 00:32:18,500 --> 00:32:20,200 how to hedge. And that's the reason you're 541 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,400 using leverage and options trading. 542 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:25,900 Then. Okay, that's fine. 543 00:32:25,900 --> 00:32:29,700 But if you're just using leverage to gamble, it's the 544 00:32:29,700 --> 00:32:31,500 same advice. I would give to any person, 545 00:32:31,500 --> 00:32:36,400 which is don't do that. So I think that is the same 546 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:37,800 advice would go for microstrategy. 547 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,500 It's like, there's no need. There is absolutely no need to 548 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,300 do this. We'll see what happens. 549 00:32:44,300 --> 00:32:46,500 I get bad. I get bad. 550 00:32:46,500 --> 00:32:53,500 Juju about about the future for sailor and microstrategy. 551 00:32:53,700 --> 00:32:56,000 It's going to be a bumpy. A, I'd, I think there's no doubt 552 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:56,900 about that. Who knows? 553 00:32:56,900 --> 00:32:58,500 Who knows? If it's a winning ride or not, 554 00:32:58,500 --> 00:32:59,900 but it's going to be a bumpy one. 555 00:33:00,100 --> 00:33:04,700 Join us again. Soon when I leverage my entire 556 00:33:04,700 --> 00:33:09,000 life savings on some Bitcoin to keep this podcast going because 557 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,400 we have no way of doing it. Otherwise, I'm just going to be 558 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:18,900 doing a highly levered, bet of a minimal amount of money, and 559 00:33:18,900 --> 00:33:20,300 crossing my fingers for the best. 560 00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:24,300 Hopefully SPF buys some Buzz some Bitcoin, please. 561 00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:26,500 Buy some Bitcoin. There is no second best.