1 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,440 Welcome back, everyone. I am Cass PNC. 2 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,320 I'm joined as usual, by my partner in crime, Mr. Bennett 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:12,400 Tomlin. How are you today? 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:13,120 I'm. Doing well. 5 00:00:13,120 --> 00:00:14,680 How are you, Cass? I'm doing great. 6 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,960 We're joined by one of our favorite guests of all time, 7 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:20,800 Molly White. Thank you for coming back and 8 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,480 joining us today. How are you? 9 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,760 Doing well, always happy to come back on the show. 10 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,480 It's always nice to have you, and today we're today we're 11 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,760 talking about a topic near and dear to my heart. 12 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,760 We are. We're discussing a few things 13 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,920 that I think are really fun. We're discussing a book. 14 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:43,760 The book is read, write, own. The author is Chris Dixon, who, 15 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,960 if you're unfamiliar with him, he has quite a presence on X, 16 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,360 formerly Twitter. I think he has something like 17 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,000 500,000 followers or something like that, maybe 400,000, 18 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,360 something like that. He is a partner for Andreessen 19 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,920 Horowitz, A16Z. They are a venture capital firm 20 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,480 that has made a lot of moves in the cryptocurrency and tech 21 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:10,120 space in general. They really have pushed Web 22 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,960 Three and this notion of how it's saving the Internet. 23 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,000 And with that, with the just broad explanation of what we're 24 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,760 jumping into here. I have not read that book. 25 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,440 My Co host Bennett has and Molly has. 26 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:28,600 And the reason we wanted to have Molly on today is because her 27 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,640 review really encapsulated what I expected this book to be. 28 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:34,520 So we're going to link to her review. 29 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,080 It's review Chris Dixon's read, write own. 30 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,440 Prominent crypto venture capitalist Chris Dixon provides 31 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,360 an unconvincing Bible for blockchain solution. 32 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,560 Molly, you took the time to to get into the weeds of this this, 33 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,160 as you call it, biblical prophecy for blockchain. 34 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,320 Why didn't it convince you? Chris Dixon is doing what, as 35 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,920 you mentioned, Andreessen Horowitz has done for a long 36 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,680 time now, which is they really like to focus, or at least some 37 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,920 of them really like to focus on the idea that blockchains are 38 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,680 the solution to all the problems with the web. 39 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,360 Which has always been something that like, really gets my 40 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,880 interest because I'm also really interested in the web and things 41 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,600 that are wrong with it and ways that it could become better. 42 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,640 And so I was really interested in reading sort of a long form 43 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,560 explanation of things that they've been really saying for a 44 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,840 long time, like in their blog posts, which are prolific. 45 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,880 You know, they go on podcasts and say all this stuff, and it's 46 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,680 always been really unconvincing because they sometimes do 47 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,240 identify actual problems. You know, that, you know, big 48 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,600 tech is taking over the web. And so much of what we see is 49 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,640 filtered through the algorithms of Google and Twitter and 50 00:02:45,640 --> 00:02:48,040 Facebook and all this stuff, which, like there are legitimate 51 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,200 complaints there. But then they just sort of 52 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,200 jumped to this idea that blockchains will solve those 53 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,760 problems with really poor explanations of how they might 54 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:02,840 solve those problems or how they might not introduce a lot of new 55 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,760 problems. And in this book in particular, 56 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,400 you know, a lot of what they were talking about was in the 57 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:14,320 sort of 2020-2021 era where things were still a little bit 58 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,520 nascent as far as people building these web products on 59 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,240 Ethereum. But now Dixon has come out with 60 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,720 a book in 2024 after a lot of projects have tried to do the 61 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,840 very things that he is saying blockchains will be well suited 62 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:30,920 for. And they've failed at it 63 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,120 spectacularly. And he doesn't mention those in 64 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:35,800 the book. You know, he just talks about 65 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:37,800 like, oh, someday someone will do these things. 66 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:40,480 And so, you know, I was really disappointed in the book because 67 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:44,280 I was hoping for maybe at least an honest reflection on what's 68 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,040 happened and what's gone wrong. And, oh, you know, maybe there 69 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,720 are these problems we didn't think about, but there was 70 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:51,960 really none of that. It was a lot of the same stuff 71 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,800 they've been saying, you know, as if it was published in 2020 72 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,320 with no sort of benefit of experience. 73 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,320 You mentioned there that he doesn't address the failures, 74 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:04,040 and one of the almost stranger dynamics to me was how in some 75 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:08,560 sense failures were passed off as if they were not that right. 76 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:10,920 Like he had a whole several paragraphs section where he was 77 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,800 talking about how Helium and how helium was. 78 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,040 A good example of how tokens can help you get around the 79 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,920 bootstrap problem. But no one uses helium. 80 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,280 Except for all the poor rubes who bought the the routers, or 81 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:27,200 whatever they call them the the hotspots. 82 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:29,640 Like there was some market for that? 83 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:34,040 I guess his argument there is you can take advantage of 84 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,480 sufficiently stupid people if you make vague promises in front 85 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,240 of them, and that can save you money on infrastructure build. 86 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,800 I guess. This actually brings me to an 87 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,360 act like a. Pretty interesting thought that 88 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:51,400 I'm having where it's just like okay we know A16Z Bennett, I 89 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:55,520 hope you link to Bennett wrote this article for Protos. 90 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,720 He went over every A16Z investment and a lot of them 91 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:05,040 were very, very poor investments and I think and did they invest 92 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,120 in AXI Infinity? They invested in Sky Mavis when 93 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,800 Sky Mavis launched AXI Infinity. If we want to look at the 94 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,240 failures of the companies that they invest in, and I understand 95 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:16,560 this is a part of venture capital, right? 96 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,360 Like venture capital, most of it's going to be failures. 97 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,160 Most of it is going to be companies that don't succeed in 98 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:23,960 one way or another. They might not be scams, but 99 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,240 they don't do what they think they're going to do. 100 00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:31,320 It seems like it would be quite valuable actually, to go into 101 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:35,120 the depths of that if you want. If you want a book that people 102 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,080 are going to read and actually learn from, I guess it seems 103 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,880 like as especially as a venture capitalist who's made I don't 104 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:44,680 you think that'd be a more interesting book. 105 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:45,960 Am I sorry? Am I wrong? 106 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,160 I'm just jumping ahead to your conclusion that an interesting 107 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,640 book that people are actually going to read was not the goal 108 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,520 here, right? Molly, you called it essentially 109 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,120 biblical and I I think I I get that. 110 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:00,480 I'm getting that understanding as well. 111 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,600 Everyone that sort of described it has called it like almost 112 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,640 like religious in in a in a sense. 113 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,440 Even the positive ones are kind of like it's it doesn't sound 114 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,000 like it uses hard data to back up his claims or or anything 115 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:14,920 like that. What do you think was the goal 116 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,600 of this book ultimately? Well, I really found myself 117 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,800 wondering that when I was reading it, because there are so 118 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,920 many parts in it where it's pretty clear who it's not for. 119 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:25,480 You know who he's not writing the book for? 120 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:27,080 He's not writing it for skeptics. 121 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:32,120 Very clearly he insults them at several points throughout the 122 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,480 book. You know, anyone who tries to 123 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,920 Fact Check some of the claims will easily find errors. 124 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,520 So it's really not meant for like, an adversarial reader. 125 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:45,680 I don't think it's really meant for even someone who has not 126 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,080 made-up their mind on crypto and is open to. 127 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:52,640 Maybe there's some possible use cases here, unless they're very 128 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,160 sort of uncritical, because he'll, you know, he'll say 129 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,000 things as though they're fact, as though they are just like 130 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:02,880 well accepted truths and not bother to back up the argument 131 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,480 or cite any data or anything. He'll just say things and then 132 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:07,080 move right on. And you're like, wait a minute, 133 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,480 I needed more there. I needed to know, you know, what 134 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:12,160 you were saying and why I should believe that. 135 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:14,920 So I ended up feeling like the book is really just written for 136 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,920 people who either already agree with him and are just looking to 137 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,160 sort of be like, yes, this is exactly right. 138 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,440 Yeah. Or for people just looking to 139 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,560 have someone tell them what to believe without really putting 140 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,480 much thought into it. And then I think there's also, 141 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,320 as far as the goal of the book, I think there is a strong chance 142 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,720 that he's really just hoping that he can say, look at my best 143 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,080 selling book. I'm clearly so authoritative on 144 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,160 this topic because I, you know, topped the New York Times list 145 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:42,720 or, you know, whatever it is that they're trying to do. 146 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,480 So clearly everything I said in this book must be true and must 147 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,960 be well accepted and must be well reasoned because it was, 148 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,280 you know, topping the charts and all this kind of stuff. 149 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:52,760 I think. I think there's a lot of that. 150 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,400 You know, it's more credible to be able to say, look, I 151 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,280 published a book with Penguin Random House than to say look at 152 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,400 my blog posts. Although I think you know, they 153 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:03,560 they do a fair amount of look at my blog posts as well. 154 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,200 But you know, I think it's really just to sort of lend 155 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,880 credibility to this idea that block chains are the future of 156 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,640 the web. And here is the you know, you 157 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,960 don't even have to read it, but just look at there's this book 158 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,200 here and this is This would explain it if you bothered to 159 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,200 read it. It's a it's a document for 160 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,040 crypto venture firms general partners to send to their 161 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,040 limited partners to convince them it's still worth sending 162 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,000 the general partners more money. That's that's really kind of 163 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,640 feels like what it is. No, no, crypto's still here. 164 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,360 Crypto's still good. Things are still going great. 165 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:36,799 Just just just look. The book says so. 166 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,559 We'll we'll jump into the New York Times bestseller list 167 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,200 aspect of this shortly but I do I do want to propose that this 168 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,080 because I I similar to you Molly was that was my kind of thought 169 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:52,640 was that this was AI mean it is a marketing campaign and and a 170 00:08:52,640 --> 00:09:00,520 way to make blockchain and web 3 sound quite viable still 171 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,400 especially during this crazy run during like everyone's talking 172 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,760 about AI and you know large language model like what Like 173 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:10,760 everyone has other things they're thinking about right now 174 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:15,360 that aren't cryptocurrency. So reminding everyone that all 175 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,040 these companies exist and have billions of dollars poured into 176 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,120 them. Sure I think that's a huge part 177 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,800 of it but then Wall Street Journal wrote an article in 178 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:29,040 October of 2022 titled Anderson Horowitz went all in on crypto 179 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,800 at the worst possible time. Chris Dixon a partner who led 180 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,840 the charge says he has a very long term horizon. 181 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,760 Basically this is an article saying that Chris Dixon's 182 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:44,520 investments suck. I am curious if A16Z said, 183 00:09:44,680 --> 00:09:47,280 listen buddy, your investments are tanking. 184 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,360 Write a book, get some marketing push onto the onto the companies 185 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,560 that you have invested in and try to claw back some of this 186 00:09:55,560 --> 00:09:57,440 cash that you have unwisely spent. 187 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:58,880 I think there could be truth to that. 188 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,200 Obviously, I'm not going to say that's for sure true, but like 189 00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:04,160 it just feels like a possibility to me I guess. 190 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,280 And from the way you guys are describing the book, I I still 191 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,040 feel that way. It's and also like a morale 192 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,600 booster to all these companies that they've invested in that 193 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,160 they're handing this book out to them and saying like see, we 194 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,280 still care, we still believe in you or whatever. 195 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,200 But yeah, Bennett, you also read the book. 196 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:22,840 So I'd like to hear some of your thoughts as well. 197 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,840 My thoughts echo many of Molly's in that I think that this was 198 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:31,080 primarily an exercise in narrative shaping in the way 199 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,200 that Anderson Horowitz loves to do. 200 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,600 They are not the most technical investors. 201 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,200 They don't emphasize due diligence as much as some other 202 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,560 firms. What their focus has been for 203 00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:48,680 much of their existence has been in trying to invest in and shape 204 00:10:48,680 --> 00:10:51,160 narratives to their own financial benefit. 205 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,320 And as we've already established, they have existing 206 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,480 large investments in various cryptocurrency projects and 207 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:02,040 firms and well, a significant portion of their crypto 208 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:06,920 portfolio is is now ostensibly AI companies after a series of 209 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,080 pivots that some of them are still at least claiming to be 210 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,120 focused on crypto. And so yes, helping to shape a 211 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,000 narrative return. The focus, especially if you 212 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:22,400 time it with like Sam Bankman Freed, is somewhat out of the 213 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,600 news cycle right now. ETFs have been approved, there 214 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:31,080 are certain positive indicators, and there's an election coming 215 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,400 up, which means, one, it is unlikely we get any substantial 216 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:38,920 crypto legislation passing before January of 2025. 217 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:46,400 Second, it means that you may feel it is advantageous to force 218 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,720 various candidates to come up with stances about your 219 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,480 Mcguffin, especially if you're worried the current 220 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,400 administration doesn't have very positive feelings towards your 221 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,520 Mcguffin. And so I think primarily the 222 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:01,400 book and the marketing campaign around it is all about trying to 223 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:05,920 keep crypto in the narrative because there was this kind of, 224 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,240 we talked about this before in kind of the context of FTX and 225 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,080 SPF. Following that, there's been an 226 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:18,520 increasing resolve among certain regulators to push crypto away 227 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:20,960 from like some of the financial centres, right. 228 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:26,760 The banks started doing it even before FTX, but SESEC and CFTC 229 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,240 both kind of indicated they were pushing crypto further away 230 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,240 following FTX. And so I think the book exists 231 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,960 to help a 16 ZS crypto investments first and foremost. 232 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,800 I would also add, actually one thing about timing that I think 233 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,720 is interesting. I think because we're coming up 234 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:47,160 into an election year, Trump is going to be a candidate. 235 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,960 There's going to be a lot of conversations about the web is 236 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:55,800 broken, misinformation, especially AI, deep fakes, 237 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,560 things like that that are going to be used to try to influence 238 00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:01,880 the election. And I think that a big narrative 239 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,840 that we're going to be seeing is that block chains will fix 240 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,640 everything that's wrong with the web that we are seeing so 241 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:14,160 starkly, you know, just demonstrated by the absolute 242 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,840 nonsense that happens on the web around election years. 243 00:13:17,560 --> 00:13:20,960 So I think the timing is not entirely coincidental because 244 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,480 there's about to be, I think a lot of conversations about, you 245 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,440 know, trustworthiness on the web, social media, big tech, 246 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,840 etcetera. And this will be a good 247 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:34,240 opportunity for Andreessen Horowitz to continue the 248 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,760 arguments that Dixon makes in the book, which is that 249 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,440 blockchains will fix social media, it will fix 250 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:45,040 disinformation, it will fix even AI he he really, I didn't go 251 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,880 into this in my review because my review was already getting 252 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,480 pretty long. But he talks about AI a lot in 253 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:57,240 the book and kind of yeah, he it's in sort of it's in. 254 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,520 It's in the same sort of way that he talks about a lot of 255 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,520 things where he states as fact that like AI is the next big 256 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,360 thing. And you know, it's going to 257 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:10,280 totally change how art, you know, an artist do business and 258 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,840 all this stuff. But he talks about block chains 259 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,600 as a solution to all the problems that AI will introduce. 260 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,200 So he's, you know, he's really, I think, looking for the timely 261 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,760 conversations to sort of reinsert the argument that block 262 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:29,480 chains will solve this, even though, you know, history has 263 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:31,480 not been friendly towards that narrative. 264 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,960 Before we get into the yeah, the other couple aspects of this 265 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,160 book I do. I just wanted to question, like, 266 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,120 I know when I said I made a point, I tweeted out something 267 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:46,160 about like how funny it was to me, Like in an ironic sense that 268 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,840 they had taken out a full page ad in the Washington Post. 269 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:50,960 OK. And then also that he's 270 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,760 publishing a book on paper, on physical paper like that. 271 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,320 This is funny to me in some sense regardless. 272 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:03,200 And a reporter from The Block, I believe Colin. 273 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,440 I believe Colin Willem. I don't know if I'm saying his 274 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,920 name right, but he he said, this doesn't surprise me, that 275 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:11,560 they're doing this. Think about who they're trying 276 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,880 to reach with this advertising. It is politicians and lobbyists 277 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,680 in Washington, DC And I was like, Oh yeah, that. 278 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:21,520 I mean like that. It's a good point, even though I 279 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:23,080 still think it's ironic and funny. 280 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,880 And I wonder if did this book have like did it feel like 281 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:32,680 politics was being breached or was it just vaguely like in the 282 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:37,160 background? He does talk about legislation 283 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,480 and the ways that he thinks legislation could, you know, 284 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,680 hurt the crypto industry in the future of blockchains that he's, 285 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:49,400 you know, talking about. I think more than anything he 286 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,640 is. I think he's hoping that the 287 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,240 existence of the book will influence regulators, 288 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,960 politicians, etcetera. I don't think he's actually 289 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,000 hoping that politicians and lobby or that regulators will 290 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,080 read the book because there's not actually that much in there 291 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,680 about regulation and stuff. So, you know, maybe he would 292 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,120 hope that they would buy into his idea that, you know, in 293 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,480 order to do all these wonderful things, we need to have, you 294 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,920 know, light touch regulation, which is sort of briefly what he 295 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,320 says, although he doesn't actually really illustrate what 296 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:20,960 he thinks regulation should look like. 297 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,640 He says it should exist, but it shouldn't be securities 298 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,920 regulations. And that's kind of as far as he 299 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,560 goes. But yeah, I think, I think it's 300 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,960 really just he wants me to be able to point at the book and 301 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,080 say this, you know, again, if you were to read this, you would 302 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,000 be so convinced about everything I have to say. 303 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,280 And I know you don't have the time, you know, don't worry 304 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,720 about it, but it's there. If you were to to, you know, to 305 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,880 care to look is, I think, I think that the goal really. 306 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,000 Yeah, I think that's actually a really excellent point. 307 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,360 It almost feels at times like apolitical, like divorced from 308 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,200 searching like political things, and like trying to avoid making 309 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,000 certain political stances so that it says this kind of 310 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,600 everything for anyone who reads it right. 311 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:07,280 And A16Z talking about their blog posts does have relatively 312 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,160 detailed blog posts and how they feel about certain specific 313 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:11,880 pieces of legislation you can look up. 314 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,640 And none of that kind of substance makes it into the 315 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:17,640 book. It is, like Molly mentioned, all 316 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,359 just like don't regulate this out of existence or you'll 317 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,480 regret it. Can't use laws from the 1930s on 318 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,280 our tokens, and our tokens aren't currencies. 319 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:30,360 They're tokens, we insist. And so, yeah, it felt almost 320 00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:34,240 like kind of trying to avoid being political and acting just 321 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,880 as a legitimizing exercise. We're not all Sam Bankman freed. 322 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:40,600 Some of us are best selling authors. 323 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,560 And some of us don't even like Sam Bankman Freed, actually, you 324 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:45,800 know, and we don't like the casinos and all the stuff that 325 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,040 we can sort of say is bad crypto. 326 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,760 But also don't try to regulate the casino out of existence 327 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,560 because the casino needs to exist for our very serious 328 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,520 things like let me check my list here. 329 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,520 Investments in NFT cock fighting to pay off. 330 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:02,720 God, that was just one of my favorite ones. 331 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,320 Mecca cock fighting, actually. Sure, sure. 332 00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:07,760 The chickens are robots. That makes they're robots, yeah. 333 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,400 No, I think that's super true. I think also it's very clear 334 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,680 throughout the book that he's, it's like there are points where 335 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,920 you can see him really carefully not pissing people off. 336 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,040 Like, there are so many points where he's being so careful to 337 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,840 not make Bitcoiners mad, even though it's pretty clear that he 338 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:26,400 doesn't love Bitcoin all that much. 339 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,400 And he's he's he's very clearly an Ethereum guy. 340 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,520 And he still trips up in a couple times by like crossing 341 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,320 the Bitcoin mythos by like saying that yes, miners are the 342 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,960 ones responsible for validating instead of like pointing to 343 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,880 nodes, which is a thing that any bitcoiners who actually bothered 344 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,920 to read the book, which won't be many of them, would immediately 345 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:45,840 be upset edited him with. Yeah, there are a couple of 346 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,240 things that I think would piss off bit coiners, but like you 347 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,360 can see him very carefully trying to like tread the line to 348 00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:54,120 make the book as acceptable to like the widest audience 349 00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:56,160 possible. And and we're talking about in a 350 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,680 lot of this, how much of the book is light and abstract. 351 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:02,920 And that is true even when he's talking about, like, the book's 352 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,840 primary topic, like when he's talking about block chains and 353 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:07,840 what they are and what they're supposed to do. 354 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,880 He's like, wrong in weird ways. Like when he talks about things 355 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:17,320 like he he assumes block chains are always forward compatible, 356 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,720 which is not true. Bitcoin has removed a bunch of 357 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:22,920 app codes, so if you built something relying on those app 358 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,280 codes, your program breaks. Ethereum has done a variety of 359 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,120 breaking changes over it's time that have caused smart contracts 360 00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:32,200 to stop functioning. There are further future 361 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,080 breaking changes planned for Ethereum, like state rent and 362 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,760 things like that that will invalidate how a bunch of smart 363 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,840 contracts work. But he just says you can build 364 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,600 something now, confident it will continue to run that way into 365 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,320 the future and it's just objectively not. 366 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,200 True, right? And that he he argues that that 367 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,720 like, blockchains can't be changed, basically that the code 368 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:55,600 of a blockchain can't be changed. 369 00:19:56,040 --> 00:20:01,280 And like it's again, just that's just not true and it's not clear 370 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,040 necessarily if he's saying that. It can't be changed. 371 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,840 Like hard stop. Or if it can't be changed 372 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,600 without community consensus, and he's just making these really 373 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,080 like broad assumptions about what that consensus would be, 374 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:17,680 and that would it would always favor his particular interests, 375 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,080 which are not necessarily aligned with every person's 376 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:22,920 interests. I would argue that Andreessen 377 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,960 Horowitz's interests are often very opposed to the interests of 378 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,200 other people in the crypto world, and that there is a very 379 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,640 strong possibility that, you know, a blockchain could change 380 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,920 in a way that would disadvantage their interests. 381 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,880 But, you know, there's just no discussion of that. 382 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:37,520 He just makes these like, bold statements. 383 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:39,920 They're like blockchains can't change and then moves right on. 384 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,680 And does like a similar thing with other fundamental things 385 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,680 for blockchains, like security. Like just hand waves away the 386 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,640 issue of like all of blockchain security and he's like you may 387 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,960 sometimes hear about things being attacked but that's 388 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,680 Ethereum Classic in Bitcoin SV and never the top chains 389 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,880 Ignoring like finance proposing a rollback on Bitcoin or the 390 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,600 infinite minting bug on finance where the fucking Dow hack in 391 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,800 the resulting hard fork a massive irregular state 392 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,120 transition. Infinite minting bug on on 393 00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:09,960 Bitcoin. Just so people don't. 394 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:11,920 Yeah, yeah, we've and I think we've talked about that before. 395 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,480 Sorry, I just wanted to clarify. That or like there was a point 396 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,480 in a bitcoins history where like 1/3 of the miners upgraded to 397 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,840 like one version but the rest didn't. 398 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,600 And there was like a chain split for a while with because there 399 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,000 was some minor incompatibility in the way the two versions 400 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,840 work. Which caused like one of the 401 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,920 minor who was running like 1/4 to 1/3 of the hash rate to have 402 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,560 to roll back to an older version to rejoin the majority chain 403 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,200 which was on the older client. And like none of that counts. 404 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,120 I guess none of that happened. It's funny because I've we 405 00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:44,640 there's been so many books that we've looked into. 406 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,960 I still think Nathaniel Popper's Digital Gold is a great 407 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,200 resource. I we've talked about David 408 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,840 Gerard's attack of the 50 foot blockchain, which I think is a 409 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,800 fun read and and provides a lot of great resources actually if 410 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,760 you're. And holds up really well given 411 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,400 that it was written in like 2017. 412 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:02,880 Yeah, yeah. And just the idea of like 413 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:07,080 actually going on Bitcoin talk forums and and stuff like that, 414 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,600 and like actually listing these websites and these forum pages 415 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,080 where people could actually go back and look at the history of 416 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:17,600 this stuff as it's happening if they were so inclined to. 417 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:19,560 I think stuff like that is great. 418 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:24,080 I, and obviously Zeke Fox with his recent book, I think that 419 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:28,520 was also excellent as well. So I think there's plenty of 420 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,320 examples out there. And there's Laura Shin's book 421 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,040 about the Etherians was good too. 422 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,960 There's a lot of, there's a lot of good books out there about 423 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:39,760 block chains or crypto or whatever. 424 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,080 And then there's going infinite. And then there's going infinite. 425 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,280 And yes, me as well. Yes, Molly and I both reviewed 426 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,800 that in our chapter. 5. Yeah, you're stuck there still. 427 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,600 There's a couple things I kind of want to interject on. 428 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,600 There's this very strange dynamic for me reading this 429 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,920 book, Molly. And I think, and I think you 430 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,880 might have experienced the same, Chris Dixon is older than the 431 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,520 two of us. But like, the way he talks about 432 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,280 the Internet feels strange to me because he talks about like, 433 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,080 things being dead that I remember experience and still 434 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,360 experience. Like RSS is dead and blogs are 435 00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:21,600 dead and websites are dead and all these many, many things are 436 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,840 dead. And like, I can see the shadow 437 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:27,840 of what his argument could be like. 438 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,360 He's trying to point to the centralization in these 439 00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:33,520 gatekeepers in these things. But then, like, I go and I 440 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,080 listen to Chris Dixon on a podcast distributed on RSS, and 441 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,600 I'm like, this feels like someone building on a protocol 442 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,040 network. But what would I know? 443 00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:45,240 I'm not a venture capitalist. Did you have any of that kind of 444 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,040 tension where, like Chris Dixon's perspective on the web 445 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,160 feels like it's coming from some very strange place? 446 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,120 Yeah, I actually wrote like basically a full length blog 447 00:23:56,120 --> 00:24:01,360 post that I ended up cutting from the review just about how 448 00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:07,120 sort of a historical his view of the web and the Internet and 449 00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:11,040 other sort of protocols is. There's a lot in there. 450 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,640 He spends the first one to two parts of the book reviewing the 451 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,480 early Internet, some of the technology that's involved in 452 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,280 the Internet snack. He actually gets kind of 453 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,520 technical in there, like more than I expected him to given the 454 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:25,880 what I thought the audience would be, you know, talking 455 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,720 about what things were like in the early Internet and you know, 456 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,400 he was presumably there. You know, he's older like than I 457 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,880 was. I was not really in the early 458 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:42,480 Internet per SE, but it's incredibly like warped his sort 459 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,400 of view of the early Internet. And I think I was actually 460 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,920 having a conversation on Mastinon ironically, which he 461 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:50,040 says his dad so. Did. 462 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:55,880 Yeah, yeah. With someone about this, someone 463 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,760 who is also, you know, is closer to Chris Dixon's age and was 464 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,720 saying that, you know, they were around too in that time period 465 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,760 and saw things very differently. And I think honestly what 466 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,640 happened is that Chris Dixon remembers a version of the early 467 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,240 Internet and didn't really because of that. 468 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,400 He just sort of assumes that's how it was for everyone and 469 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,960 doesn't really go into researching more than that. 470 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,520 And so he describes this very rose colored glasses view of the 471 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,240 early Internet where anyone could just dial up and, you 472 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,160 know, search whatever they wanted. 473 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:29,840 Which. No. 474 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,880 First of all, it was hard to find things back then. 475 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,680 You know, and he they could write, you know, in the later 476 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,960 days of the Internet, they could just like buy a URL and you 477 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,680 know, spin up a web server and write whatever they wanted. 478 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,520 And Google wasn't the intermediary where search was 479 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,960 making it so that you were getting DE ranked and you know 480 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:47,320 Facebook's algorithm wasn't there. 481 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,680 And like all this stuff about how it was this beautiful early 482 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,680 days of the Internet which like I and I know a lot of people who 483 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,560 have these rose colored sort of views on the early days of the 484 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,360 Internet. And there is some truth there. 485 00:25:57,360 --> 00:26:00,120 Like there were some really cool things about the early days of 486 00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:03,120 the Internet and this sort of hacker ethos and it was this 487 00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:06,600 sort of adversarial time with some regulators and all this 488 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,880 stuff. But also like a lot of people 489 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,480 didn't have access to that. Like so many people couldn't get 490 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,320 on the Internet back then. It wasn't that anyone could log 491 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,040 on and make a search and and do whatever I I was looking up the 492 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,240 numbers on this he he so he defines web one as ending in 493 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,360 2005 which is kind of arbitrary but like that's a fairly 494 00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:29,840 acceptable statement to make. He's like 1990 to 2005 is is web 495 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,760 One in 2515% of people were online. 496 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,040 That's it. He's saying anyone could log on. 497 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:42,360 Even today two 2/3 of people are online there's a whole third of 498 00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:45,080 the the globe that does not have Internet access. 499 00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:49,720 So stating that the, you know that in 2005 anyone had access 500 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,040 to the web and didn't have to deal with all this stuff, that 501 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,320 big tech is dating and all that stuff is just completely a 502 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,640 historical. And even today, like there's so 503 00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,600 many people who just don't have access to that. 504 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,160 But I would argue that it's actually a good thing that today 505 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,720 many more people have access to the web than they did in 2005. 506 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,440 And so we've actually made some strides since then. 507 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,520 It's not all bad. And I'll even argue that, like 508 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:15,320 self, hosting, A reasonably full-featured website is easier 509 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:20,400 in 2024 and 2005 I. Was writing about this like two 510 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,400 years ago where I was saying that, like, actually the web's 511 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,240 pretty cool. Like people. 512 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,560 I actually have a blog post in the works on this. 513 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,600 It's like, yes, the web is broken. 514 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:31,200 I think most people will agree with that. 515 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,440 Also, the web is better than it's ever been, right? 516 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,560 Like, those two things are both true. 517 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,880 And, you know, there are ways that I think we could clearly 518 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,560 improve the web. I don't think that the web will 519 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,840 ever be fixed because fixed means something totally 520 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,760 different to every person. And what I think is fixed is 521 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,080 very different from what Andreessen Horowitz thinks is 522 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,920 fixed. But you know, there are actually 523 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,040 really cool things that you can do today that allow you to have 524 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,600 total ownership over what you are doing on the web. 525 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,480 That's another blog post that I have in the works. 526 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,280 But the idea of like ownership is very different and we could, 527 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:10,680 I don't know if you want to go into that or not. 528 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,080 I mean we might that I we might as well just jump right into 529 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,400 that because I think that one of the things I was talking about I 530 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,080 would I tweeted something out about like I love these property 531 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,680 rights on the blockchain people because they talk about it like 532 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,640 there wasn't property rights before the it's like you guys 533 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,080 understand we've managed property rights and ownership 534 00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:34,840 for thousands and thousands of years like this. 535 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,200 The concept isn't new and being able to deal with it. 536 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,880 We don't need a block we don't need a blockchain to do it And I 537 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,840 think Chris Dixon would hard argue that I'm wrong in that 538 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,880 sense because the title of his book is read write own. 539 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,560 For anyone who's unfamiliar, I think like read write is that 540 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,120 it's like a common like common parlance in tech where it's like 541 00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:01,880 about, you know, read, read and write capabilities for when 542 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,680 you're when you're publishing and doing stuff. 543 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,360 Yeah, in. The context of the book, he 544 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,360 divides like web one into your reading and Web two your writing 545 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,880 and interacting, and in Web three you get to own the assets, 546 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:15,880 the property. Yeah. 547 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,920 But one note that I made when I was reading was that I realized 548 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,640 at some point that Chris Dixon's view of ownership is, like, 549 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,560 really different than mine. Like, I own a lot of things. 550 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,400 In theory, Chris Dixon, it seems like, only really believes you 551 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,320 own something if you can resell that thing. 552 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,640 And so, like, like, I own my dog, right? 553 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,760 Technically, I don't love that, like that term. 554 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,480 But it's, you know, it's how people talk about it. 555 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,560 I'm not going to resell my dog, right? 556 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,240 I own the milk in my fridge. I'm not going to resell the milk 557 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,840 in my fridge. You know, I own the content that 558 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,640 I publish on Wikipedia. I'm not going to sell that. 559 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:56,800 Right. Like, there's a lot of stuff 560 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,040 that I think I own that Chris Dixon would be like, oh, no, you 561 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,200 don't own your dog. You know, you don't own the milk 562 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,440 in your fridge, which is like, he very much believes that until 563 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,920 you can, like, wrap something that you have created into a 564 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,680 token, you don't truly own it. This is also something that 565 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,160 comes up with his top talk of like ownership in terms of 566 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,840 content creation, which I think is really interesting where he 567 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,880 talks about how you don't own the stuff that you post on 568 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,480 Twitter and he talks about how Twitter takes like a Facebook, 569 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,720 Twitter, couple different platforms, he says takes like a 570 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:34,280 99% take rate, which is just completely fiction. 571 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,920 Like he this is actually something that they make. 572 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,600 Andreessen Horowitz makes the same claim in those state of 573 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,560 crypto reports. So I'd already addressed this a 574 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,640 long time ago. But like when he talks about 575 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,280 take rates, he's talking about several different things and he 576 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,520 just calls them all take rates. One of them is like the take 577 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,800 rate of you know, you publish something on sub stack, sub 578 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,480 stack takes 10% of your subscription revenue. 579 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,440 That's like a normal way to look at a take rate. 580 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,960 But then he talks about like 99% take rates on Twitter or maybe 581 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:04,520 bad example. Now that Twitter is like 582 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,000 monetizing some things, but he's really just talking about like 583 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,000 platforms where people publish stuff with no expectation of 584 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,920 return. And then he says that the 585 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,560 advertising money that the company is making is like the 586 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,160 take rate. And it allows him to really 587 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,000 juice the numbers, to like, make it sound like current web 588 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,320 platforms have this like astronomical take rate. 589 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,520 But when he's talking about ownership, he's really only 590 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,520 saying that, like, if you can't make money off of it, you don't 591 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,880 own it, which I think is just like kind of an offensive way to 592 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,200 talk about creation because it's so financialized. 593 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,000 And even in that same vein, he seems OK with not really owning 594 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:39,640 it as long as you can profit from it. 595 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,240 Like in the section about NFTS, when he's talking about like the 596 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,000 rights and like the individual prints themselves. 597 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,960 He has some understanding that the NFT itself is like just the 598 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,400 NFT and doesn't necessarily represent ownership of some 599 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,240 other thing. But he still seems to think it's 600 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,760 valuable purely because it can be, like bought and resold and 601 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,520 valued in that way. And so even when the thing you 602 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,880 own isn't actually like a thing you own, he thinks you own it if 603 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,320 you can potentially profit from it in the future. 604 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,120 Right. And he he also makes a lot of 605 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,760 assumptions I think that are really interesting around how 606 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,240 block chains would enable ownership somehow like 607 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,760 out-of-the-box that are not really true and it conversely 608 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,000 about how you can't do those things today. 609 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,160 I was, I was literally just talking to someone about this 610 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,280 about the idea of like owning your audience, which I also 611 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,480 think is a really weird term, like owning your relationship 612 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,760 with your readers or whatever. It's like weird to call that 613 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,680 ownership, but that's kind of a side point. 614 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:40,600 But like I recently just moved my blog from Sub Stack onto my 615 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,960 own self hosted thing. And I was able to do that 616 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,320 without having to get every single person who subscribed to 617 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:52,640 my writing to resubscribe because the payments are made to 618 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,800 me. And then like Sub Stack takes a 619 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,400 cut of that, but it's still a relationship that is sort of 620 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,760 with me directly. And so I was able to like move 621 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,920 to a different platform because that's how that's set up and 622 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:04,840 that's a really good way of setting things up. 623 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,000 I have a lot of complaints about Sub Stack, but like, that is 624 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,760 really good that they do that and I think lots of places 625 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,640 should do that so that if you want to start writing somewhere 626 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,080 else, you can just switch out the platform and nothing really 627 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,840 changes for your readers, for your payment relationships, 628 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:21,680 anything like that, that's awesome. 629 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,120 And that's what Chris Dixon is really envisioning when he's 630 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,040 talking about these creator audience relationships. 631 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,920 And he talks about how blockchains will enable this. 632 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,280 Somehow, as though there's not like, as though it's impossible 633 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,160 to set up a relationship that is more traditional big tech where 634 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,760 it's the platform that owns those relationships and they 635 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,280 don't come with you because it is possible to have that kind of 636 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,320 platform built on a blockchain. Like there's nothing about block 637 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:50,920 chains that stops you from doing that. 638 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,400 He just sort of makes these assumptions that all block chain 639 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,080 platforms will be set up in a way where there is a more 640 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,600 advantageous relationship between subscribers and 641 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:00,280 creators. I think there's like existing 642 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,320 counter examples like I don't think Bit Cloud D so you can 643 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,040 like easily and automatically port your following from Bit 644 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,159 cloud over to some other platform just because it's 645 00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:13,480 recorded on the blockchain. Yeah, exactly. 646 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:15,800 Like it's it's super. There's nothing about this like 647 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,360 sort of network level technology that prevents platforms, as he 648 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,080 says, that prevents platforms from building on it in a way 649 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,960 that is sort of a walled garden. And there's nothing about 650 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,480 current, you know, non blockchain technologies that 651 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,000 prevent people from not doing that. 652 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,199 And so I just find that really disingenuous because I like, I, 653 00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:37,679 I totally agree with him that the model should be improved in 654 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:39,520 a lot of ways. So that you, you know, so that 655 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,719 people are not so dependent on these platforms. 656 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:46,719 And so that there isn't this sort of control there that keeps 657 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,560 people locked in to using some of these platforms. 658 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,679 But the blockchain question is is sort of a side thing, like 659 00:34:53,679 --> 00:34:56,719 that's not really an important part of it in my opinion. 660 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,200 In that vein, as a Wikipedian, how did you feel about the way 661 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:07,400 he handled, addressed, and almost dismissed the Wikipedia 662 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,440 model? So Chris Dixon actually likes 663 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,800 Wikipedia more than a lot of these types of folks do. 664 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,000 A lot of them just hate Wikipedia, and he's not one of 665 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:17,960 them, which like credit to him on that one. 666 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,760 But he does talk about Wikipedia in really weird ways where he 667 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,880 like, he talks about it as though it is this completely 668 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,440 unique edge case that like could never be replicated, which is, I 669 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:30,880 mean, I understand where he's coming from. 670 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,600 It is pretty unique and people really haven't replicated it in 671 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,000 ways that they've certainly tried to. 672 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,200 But he attributes the success of Wikipedia to like, oh, but it's 673 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,560 because it's an encyclopedia. And you know, because of that it 674 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,160 didn't have to have big, I don't know, infrastructure cost or 675 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,440 platform cost. He, like, totally glosses over 676 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,280 the fact that, well, also because people volunteer to 677 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,600 write the content that's big, you know, like there's stuff 678 00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,200 like that where he just sort of he he talks about Wikipedia's 679 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,640 success in a very strange way. You know, as though it's just 680 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,240 because for some reason encyclopedias are different from 681 00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:08,920 things that people are trying to do on the web, which like I 682 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,000 would argue it's not that different from like journalism 683 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,640 or, you know, other types of things. 684 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,880 So yeah, it was it was strange to see Wikipedia come up it it 685 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,480 only came up in sort of side mentions, I think. 686 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,960 But it was, it was always treated as sort of like the oh, 687 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:25,720 but this could never work type of thing. 688 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,200 And the same thing actually was true of nonprofit models around 689 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,280 web services where he just like he's like, oh, you could 690 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,400 hypothetically fix a lot of problems that we see with big 691 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,400 tech by having a more like nonprofit type of model or you 692 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,840 know other types of models where the incentives are different. 693 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,120 But that could never work, and he just, like, keeps going. 694 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:48,080 I was reminded of the the, the remember. 695 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:49,600 I don't know if you guys remember there was a thing 696 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,800 called Scent that allowed people to purchase tweets. 697 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,960 Yeah. As like, as like NFTS. 698 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:58,720 Yeah, yeah. And I got. 699 00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:00,320 I think they shut it down, but like. 700 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,160 And they they shut it down with like a pretty brutal 701 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,920 condemnation of of Crypto and Web 3. 702 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,000 Right. And and but I don't know if you 703 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,520 guys remember the reason that was such a big deal is because 704 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:17,440 it like the first tweet got sold for like $2,000,000 or something 705 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,480 like that. I just looked up the guy who 706 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:25,120 bought the first tweet ever and I found out that he fled Iran on 707 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,560 embezzlement charges of $20 million in an Interpol Red 708 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:30,760 Notice. Now I don't know. 709 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,320 I am just like shocked by like how everything I think of when 710 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,800 it comes to how NFTS were presented initially, it's mostly 711 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,480 just bad news. And then to, yeah, to just hear 712 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,400 all of this from you guys about this book. 713 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,640 I think even the nicest review I read about it was David C 714 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:50,640 Morris's, who's a friend of the show and he, he called it an 715 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:55,040 optimistic, like, take on the future of Web 3. 716 00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:01,400 Which like, but yeah, to like ignore all of the bad things, 717 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,400 all the bad investments that Anderson Horowitz has made, that 718 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,120 Chris Dixon has made, and pretend like they didn't happen 719 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,080 instead of saying like, here's what I learned from these 720 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:14,120 experiences actually is pretty compelling reason to not read 721 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,080 this book for as far as I'm concerned. 722 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,120 Yeah, There was also a pretty positive review in I think it 723 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,520 was Fortune by Jeff, John Roberts who he he was pretty 724 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,640 positive about it. But he also very much called out 725 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,600 the fact that like throughout the whole book, Andreessen or 726 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,480 Chris Dixon is talking up Andreessen Horowitz investments 727 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,880 without disclosing that they had invested in the companies. 728 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,600 Like they talk about Helium, they talk about Open C, they 729 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,760 talk about all these different companies that Andreessen 730 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,640 Horowitz had like major investments in as though they 731 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,200 are sort of not related, you know, as though it's just like, 732 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,400 oh, I'm just picking an example, but it just so happens to be one 733 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,040 that they invested in. And there is like at the very 734 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,360 end of the book, if you go to the like about the author 735 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,360 section, it says, you know, Chris Dixon is a general partner 736 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,840 for Andreessen Horowitz. Some of the companies in this 737 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,040 book may have been, you know, investments. 738 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:05,440 And that's it. There's no list. 739 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,000 There's nothing like there's no disclosure. 740 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,680 I'm not saying that's illegal, but it kind of sounds illegal. 741 00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:13,600 But anyway, But yeah, probably not. 742 00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:16,240 You're probably not ethical. Like I have no problem. 743 00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:17,040 There you go. Matt. 744 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:19,560 That's the perfect segue. There we go. 745 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,040 That's the segue I needed. We're talking about unethical, 746 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,880 so let's let's bring up how Anderson Horowitz and Chris 747 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,480 Dixon got this book onto the New York Times bestseller list, 748 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,480 which has been kind of the talk of the town for a couple days 749 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,000 now. If anyone is unfamiliar, the New 750 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,120 York Times Best Seller Seller List, it's the stalwarts of like 751 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:43,360 everyone turns to that to see what's popping off in fiction 752 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,440 and nonfiction. And it's known as being this, 753 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,240 this great source of knowing what is the most popular stuff 754 00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:54,960 right now in bookselling. I know this because my mom was a 755 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,840 bookseller, and I think the store that she worked for at the 756 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,800 time was part of this. But they do a pretty thorough 757 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,000 auditing. Like, they they reach out to I 758 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,000 don't know if it's hundreds or thousands but tons of bookstores 759 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,560 across the nation and say, like, hey, we got to talk to you, What 760 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:11,800 are what are the numbers you're getting? 761 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:17,240 Anything weird going on? And if the booksellers say yes, 762 00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:19,520 something weird is going on. Actually, we got. 763 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:25,360 Say 1000 requests for this book, and we don't usually get 764 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,880 anything like that. They tell the New York Times and 765 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,120 the New York Times kind of jots that down and says, well, that's 766 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,440 weird. And when they publish their 767 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,360 their bestseller list, if they think that something weird 768 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,960 happened and a book did something strange and suspicious 769 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:45,960 to get on the list, they put a little dagger underneath the 770 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,040 title and lo and behold, read, write, own it had a little 771 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,560 dagger underneath it. And it seems to, at least 772 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,920 according to a Motherboard article, it seems to look like 773 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:04,200 thousands of these books were bulk purchased and essentially 774 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:08,120 Anderson Horowitz and Chris Dixon manipulated markets so so 775 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,280 that they could get their book to the top of a best seller 776 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,800 list. As a marketing scheme, I would 777 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,680 imagine. But also because I I think these 778 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,360 a lot of these guys are really obsessed with putting New York 779 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,920 Times bestseller into their their name. 780 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:24,720 It's almost like a knighthood or something. 781 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:30,480 So I assume that Chris Dixon's ego played a role in that as 782 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,240 well. I think what's really funny to 783 00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:36,960 me about this kind of blowing up, there's two things that I 784 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,120 think are funny. Everyone in finance already 785 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:43,800 knows that A16Z does weird things when they invest in 786 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:45,680 companies. I I'm not going to call it 787 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:47,200 anything else. I'll just say weird. 788 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:54,280 Take from that what you will and that the time that the public 789 00:41:54,280 --> 00:42:00,000 actually goes, oh that's crazy is when it's just book sales. 790 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,200 Like there's no way they lost that much money, maybe you know 791 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,120 $100,000 or whatever it cost right, to buy these books. 792 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:11,000 I think Chris, ultimately Chris Dixon's time is probably quite 793 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,360 valuable, at least to him. And so that has probably been 794 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,880 quite expensive to put him on the book, the book tour circuit 795 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,640 and the podcast circuit. But yeah, the public I think is 796 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:27,280 kind of loving to see venture capitalists make such an obvious 797 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,520 mistake and think that no one would care. 798 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,680 It just makes me reflect on like how they operate in general. 799 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,000 I don't know. Do either of you have have 800 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:41,280 thoughts on on that on like this book as a metaphor and how it 801 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,120 was published as a metaphor for a 16 ZI? 802 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,280 Think it's really instructive quite how much Andreessen 803 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:53,280 Horowitz, the company is putting behind a book ostensibly just 804 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,520 written by an individual general partner. 805 00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:01,640 Like they it's like they view it as sort of their book and they 806 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,320 have been putting enormous resources behind it, including, 807 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,120 you know, full page print ads in the Washington Post which are 808 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,360 not cheap. You know, they were able to get 809 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:17,000 a op-ed written by Dixon published in the Financial 810 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,800 Times. You know, he was appearing on 811 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,400 some of these very, you know, some of the most popular tech 812 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:26,000 podcasts, at least in the US They were clearly going, you 813 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,240 know, pedal to the metal on the marketing for this book and of 814 00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:31,360 course what they did, you know, as far as trying to game the 815 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,200 book sales. And I think that's really 816 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,520 instructive that like, OK, this is really important not just to 817 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:40,760 Chris Dixon and to his perhaps genuinely held beliefs about the 818 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,440 future of the web, but also to Andreessen Horowitz, the 819 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,880 company. You know, they stand to benefit 820 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,960 not just because name recognition of one of their 821 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:55,400 general partners, but because the book is itself sort of in 822 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,360 furtherance of the goals of Andreessen Horowitz. 823 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,160 But yeah, I mean, I think there is some irony that they were 824 00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:06,800 sort of doing this manipulation to do with a book that is about, 825 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,640 you know, an industry that is known for manipulation like 826 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,280 this. You know, this type of thing. 827 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,560 You know, that type of behavior, like buying all of something 828 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:17,880 that you've released to try to make it look like there's so 829 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:19,720 much demand. It's like, Oh yeah, crypto watch 830 00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:21,160 trading. Like that's they do that all the 831 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:22,440 time. It's not even unusual. 832 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,280 Sometimes I forget it's illegal because it's so common in the 833 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,800 crypto world. So do they? 834 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,240 That's true. That's to it way too often for. 835 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:35,640 You know, I think, I think there's a lot of irony there. 836 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,760 I also thought there was a lot of irony around Chris Dixons own 837 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:43,080 description of crypto marketing in the book where he talks about 838 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:49,440 how crypto tokens and sort of the economics behind them 839 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,280 incentivize this, like organic marketing that people find 840 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,000 really genuine. And you know, it brings in all 841 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,520 this interest which like first of all, genuine organic is not 842 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:00,920 something I associate with crypto marketing at all. 843 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,560 Like I just, I was like, oh, shilling, yeah, people love 844 00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,400 that. But also he's talking, he's sort 845 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:11,560 of in the book condemning the, you know, big marketing teams 846 00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:13,520 doing all this spending on something. 847 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:15,720 And it's so inorganic and inauthentic. 848 00:45:15,720 --> 00:45:19,240 And then, like, here they are buying crates of his own book or 849 00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:22,360 whatever it is. So, you know, I think there's a 850 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:24,760 lot of irony there too, where it's like, oh, maybe you should 851 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:26,680 have put the book on the blockchain and then you would 852 00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:28,520 have had people just chilling it for you. 853 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:33,880 I also find it a little ironic that they, like these guys, are 854 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,960 always talking about needing freedom and all of this in in 855 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:42,280 tech and in on the Internet. And then when you look at who's 856 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,720 getting these books on, when you look at who's like publicly 857 00:45:45,720 --> 00:45:49,560 posting about how much they love the book and how like several 858 00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:54,480 executives have posted on Twitter and been like, yeah, I'm 859 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:57,000 making this required reading from my employees and I'm like, 860 00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:03,800 well, so that's cool, great. And like Jeremy Alaire at 861 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,160 Circle, like, yeah, I'm giving this to all my employees like, 862 00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,480 OK, so they gifted your, their, their investor, their 863 00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,640 investments like 500 copies. And the executives were like, 864 00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:16,800 yes, we have to make our, make our employees read this, make 865 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:20,800 them write a book report about it, which is just not freedom at 866 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:21,840 all. It's horrible. 867 00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,200 Yeah, I mean, I will say it's not like super unusual for 868 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,960 companies to like encourage people to buy the book that, oh, 869 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:30,520 this executive just published this book. 870 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:32,280 You should write it or you should go read it. 871 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,240 You know, go buy it, expense it, even, you know, read it in your 872 00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:36,880 own. Time, which is like on Amazon. 873 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,440 Yeah, that's right. Because there's nothing that 874 00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,360 employees love to do then and go spend their free time reading a 875 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,240 book about whatever it is they do for work. 876 00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:46,920 I do sort of wonder how many people who, if you were to 877 00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,600 survey every person who read this book, how many of them were 878 00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:51,320 reading it? Kind of like under duress. 879 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:56,400 Because it seems like a lot of the target market is like your 880 00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,760 company that Andreessen Horowitz invested in and your boss just 881 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,480 told you you have to read this book, which is like, oh great, 882 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,480 changing hearts and minds out there, Chris Dixon. 883 00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:10,440 To me, the book in its marketing reminds me of the long American 884 00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,440 tradition of politicians writing books. 885 00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,080 And politicians don't generally actually write books. 886 00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:19,440 They hire someone to write a book for them and then they put 887 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,200 their name on it and then they have their foundation like the 888 00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,120 National Party and a few other people do a bunch of book 889 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,280 purchases. Then it ends up on the New York 890 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,720 Times list and they get to take advantage of the book tour of 891 00:47:31,720 --> 00:47:35,520 the book tour is basically a extra earned media appearances 892 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,840 that are campaign but not campaign to help get your name 893 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,040 out there. I don't think Chris Dixon is 894 00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,760 running for office. To be very clear, I think Chris 895 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:49,000 Dixon and A16Z is taking advantage of the the fact that 896 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:54,800 they've realized book publishers have long standing relationships 897 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:59,360 with publicists and bookers that make it easy if you have a book 898 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,600 to get a bunch of earned media and if that book is going to be 899 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,680 a best seller, people feel a lot more comfortable having you on 900 00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,480 because you immediately have a credibility marker on it. 901 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:12,120 You're not just author of new book, you are New York Times 902 00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,840 best selling author of whatever you know and so having you on, 903 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:17,440 you're immediately more legitimate. 904 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:19,600 It makes everything look more legitimate. 905 00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:23,400 And so I think what we're seeing as we can mentioned before, this 906 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,960 is a legitimizing effort. It's making sure crypto is still 907 00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:31,880 seen as as a thing serious people can take seriously. 908 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:32,880 I. Think that's a really good 909 00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,080 point. Like it would be really hard for 910 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:39,920 Kara Schwisher to Swisher to be like here's Chris Dixon in 2024. 911 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,520 He's gonna tell you all about how blockchain are the future. 912 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:44,320 Like just to say that you'd be like what? 913 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:45,840 Why? Like who cares. 914 00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,880 But now she can be like, he's got a book coming out. 915 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:50,840 We're going to have him talk about this book that he's 916 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:52,800 published, you know, and then it's like, oh, yeah, OK, I get 917 00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:54,240 it. You know, he's, he's got 918 00:48:54,240 --> 00:48:56,360 something to talk about. And so, you know, he has this 919 00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,120 sort of excuse to show up on these podcasts and talk his 920 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,640 literally talk his book. This is a digression, but some 921 00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:06,600 of those podcast appearances have been illuminating for me. 922 00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:10,280 And the hard I don't think they all went how he wanted them to. 923 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:15,000 The hard fork one especially, yes, took me back because I've 924 00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,640 had criticisms for the hosts and some of the things that have 925 00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,640 been said on that podcast. All of us have, for what it's 926 00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,600 worth, I believe. Or Chris Dixon was even 927 00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,640 introduced. Both hosts were basically like, 928 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,240 man, we said some things we regret during that oh, we 929 00:49:31,240 --> 00:49:32,480 shouldn't. Have written that. 930 00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,680 Shouldn't have been, you know, just taking things straight from 931 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:37,400 people's mouths. And then one of them was like, 932 00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,280 yeah, I was really listening a lot to Chris Dixon when I was 933 00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:41,760 saying some of those things I regret. 934 00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:48,200 Anyways, here's Chris Dixon. And it was this like hard pivot 935 00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:52,600 that and and it was a relatively adversarial interview, more than 936 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,040 I imagine Chris Dixon was expecting from hard fork. 937 00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,960 So that was just a striking moment for me in like how even 938 00:49:59,960 --> 00:50:03,640 as a legitimizing effort, this is not succeeding as well as I 939 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,360 think he hoped. Yeah, I have to give those guys 940 00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:08,840 a lot of credit for that. Like when I first saw like, oh, 941 00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,200 Chris Dixon went on hard fork, I was like, Oh my God, you've got 942 00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:12,840 to be kidding me. Like these guys. 943 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,360 Like, no way. Like, I have had some very 944 00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:20,360 strong criticisms of some work by one of the hosts of that 945 00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:23,880 podcast, which I think we've talked about in this in this 946 00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:26,080 podcast before. It's it's Kevin Roose, the, the 947 00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:30,440 guy who wrote the New York Times Late Comers Guide to Crypto. 948 00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:32,200 Yeah. But I actually have to give him 949 00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,640 a lot of credit for his handling of that interview because he was 950 00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:40,440 very frank about, you know, he feels burned about some of what 951 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,480 he, you know, he he regrets writing some of the stuff that 952 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:44,960 he wrote. He wrote a piece about helium 953 00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,160 that he talks about like he's still gets calls from people who 954 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:52,360 bought those helium hotspots. And they're pretty mad because 955 00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,360 there is a nice New York Times piece about it, you know, and I 956 00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:59,240 think they, you know, they didn't completely flogged Chris 957 00:50:59,240 --> 00:51:01,120 Dixon. I don't think they could have. 958 00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:06,080 It's, you know, that's I think a little bit uncouth to do that on 959 00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,080 your podcast. But they held his feet to the 960 00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:10,680 fire on some stuff, You know, they tried to get him to explain 961 00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,920 how helium was not a total disaster and he really couldn't. 962 00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,000 They ended up just being like, OK, let's move on. 963 00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,600 Wait, it's uncouth to have a whole podcast episode dedicated 964 00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:23,360 to yelling about Chris Dixon? Well, I think to have him. 965 00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:25,040 Here. Yeah, He would be different if 966 00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:26,120 he was here. Yeah, yeah. 967 00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:27,040 Yeah. Good. 968 00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:29,320 But I mean, if you can get him on, go for. 969 00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:31,840 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is not an invite for Chris 970 00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:33,200 Dixon. For what it's worth, I think 971 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:35,960 we're OK without having him on and berating. 972 00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:37,480 Him might not. Accept it anyway. 973 00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:39,880 Yeah, for what it's worth, I think he has all three of us 974 00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:43,560 blocked on Twitter. I like yeah, this is not someone 975 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,120 who is a big fan of ours. I think this is a two way St. 976 00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,920 when it comes to our feelings about Chris Dixon and his 977 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:50,800 feelings about us. I might have got blocked the 978 00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,840 same day that he said he wished crypto had better critics, 979 00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:55,520 better critics. I remember that. 980 00:51:55,520 --> 00:52:00,440 I remember that and I remember just I yeah, I he, he just 981 00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:04,080 really doesn't like critics. I think the last thing before we 982 00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:08,200 go that we should talk about is the NFT collection. 983 00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:13,440 So this book came with an NFT collection it in physical 984 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:17,240 copies. There was a bookmark that was 985 00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:25,480 given to you and they had AQR code or whatever that you could 986 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:31,160 scan and then you would get a an an NFT that you could get on 987 00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:34,080 Open C, which you mentioned is one of their investments. 988 00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,960 I think that's very funny. So it's basically just a way to 989 00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:43,560 get them on on on board people to Open C and then yeah, they 990 00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:46,560 would get this. It's basically the cover of the 991 00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:52,080 book, and then it changes colors when you redeem it. 992 00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:59,240 And so far this New York Times bestseller out of 5000, NFTS, 993 00:52:59,240 --> 00:53:05,160 has sold 281. And I think everyone should just 994 00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:13,160 think about what that means for for Chris Dixon's thesis of his 995 00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:16,800 bestseller, which is that this is the future that everyone 996 00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:22,040 should, you know, get into this. It's still very important, and 997 00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:23,200 there's two ways to look at this. 998 00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:27,240 Either he really did organically sell thousands and thousands and 999 00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:30,080 thousands of physical copies of this book, which I doubt that. 1000 00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:34,160 But OK, If he did organically sell those physical copies, you 1001 00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:39,120 would expect that there would be more NFTS that have been 1002 00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:42,040 redeemed by now. I think you would also. 1003 00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:46,920 You would also expect that to mean that the public seriously 1004 00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,600 cares about the topic of cryptocurrency and blockchain 1005 00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:54,320 and Web 3 still. But instead we've seen none of 1006 00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,240 that in in accordance to these NFTS themselves. 1007 00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:02,520 Or yeah, none of these sales were organic, and why would 1008 00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:06,000 anyone redeem them? They're all in an in AA16Z 1009 00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:09,800 warehouse somewhere. But either way, that tells me 1010 00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:14,400 that there isn't actually a lot of organic interest in what 1011 00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,920 Chris Dixon is writing. And I think largely outside of 1012 00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:21,640 like Michael Lewis writing Going Infinite, which is more so about 1013 00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,600 a character in cryptocurrency than about cryptocurrency, 1014 00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:32,040 people don't really care. And I think the really cool 1015 00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:36,280 thing is, the only way I can say that without feeling weird about 1016 00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:39,280 it is because he put it on the blockchain and everyone can 1017 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:43,040 check and see how many of his NF TS have moved. 1018 00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:45,680 And there are. There are very, very, very few 1019 00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:47,480 of them. Yeah, it's a win for a 1020 00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:48,960 blockchain transparency, I guess. 1021 00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,800 In Chris Dixon's defense, it's possible that even the people 1022 00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:55,320 most excited about cryptocurrency and his 1023 00:54:55,320 --> 00:55:00,640 optimistic view of the future still look at getting a picture 1024 00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:05,080 of a sunset that changes colors. That's the same as everyone 1025 00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:09,200 else, basically, And think this isn't worth the 12 minutes it 1026 00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:13,440 would take me to figure out how to get my meta mask set up and 1027 00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:16,960 log into open sea and redeem it like even the biggest fans of 1028 00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:18,200 crypto might be like, you know what? 1029 00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,160 That's too much of A hurdle for this specific prize. 1030 00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:22,360 It's just kind of like a gimmick. 1031 00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,000 I think there's no secondary market for them. 1032 00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:28,400 So I don't think people, I don't think people are like, here's 1033 00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:29,960 this whole thing with Gary Vee's book. 1034 00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:33,240 A long time ago he tried to sell a book and he was like, if you 1035 00:55:33,240 --> 00:55:35,640 buy 12 copies, I'll give you an NFT. 1036 00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:38,280 And people started like mass buying the book because they 1037 00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:40,960 wanted to speculate on the price of the NFT. 1038 00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:44,840 I don't think that's a dynamic in play here because I don't 1039 00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,560 think anyone's like, oh, if I buy this book and get this NFT, 1040 00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:50,720 then I can sell it for $100,000 in three years or something like 1041 00:55:50,720 --> 00:55:53,760 that. So I I wonder if it's maybe just 1042 00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:57,560 not that compelling or maybe all the sales were ebooks because 1043 00:55:57,560 --> 00:55:59,800 you don't get one with the ebook, as I discovered. 1044 00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:02,720 Well, I know that you so you have to sell a certain amount of 1045 00:56:02,720 --> 00:56:05,240 physical copies to get on to the New York Times bestseller list, 1046 00:56:05,240 --> 00:56:07,440 basically, as far as far as I understand it. 1047 00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:09,560 I might be wrong and if someone knows more about that than me, 1048 00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:11,800 yeah. But like at least the VICE 1049 00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:15,320 article quoted saying, like you sometimes need as little as 2000 1050 00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:17,560 copies to make the list. And what Electric cares? 1051 00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:18,920 About that I never knew that before. 1052 00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:20,840 Yeah, books don't sell. No one reads books. 1053 00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:22,800 What? Electric Capital loan bought 1054 00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:27,800 1401 copies of the book and so that gets you a big chunk of the 1055 00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,120 way there. Add in couple 100 circle 1056 00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:32,000 employees. I think all of these things 1057 00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:34,760 illustrate there's not a lot of people who are interested in 1058 00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:38,800 reading 150 or 200 pages about an optimistic view about what 1059 00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,480 blockchains maybe, possibly, could, might, maybe do. 1060 00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:45,400 I do want to add that this, this NFT took five companies to come 1061 00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:46,800 up with. These are like and these are 1062 00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:50,200 like relatively large. So we're talking A16Z, which is 1063 00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:54,120 massive in and of itself, like this is a multibillion dollar 1064 00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:57,240 fund. Then we're talking IYK, 1065 00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:01,560 manifold, dynamic and optimism. And these for anyone who's not 1066 00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,880 in crypto that they don't, they don't matter, they don't matter. 1067 00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,600 But for anyone who is involved in this space, these are like, 1068 00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:11,320 oh, these are the big companies and what they came up with was a 1069 00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:17,480 color changing picture and I think that just it speaks 1070 00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:19,880 volumes to the actual usefulness of this. 1071 00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,320 Agree with you that I do. It is very funny that somehow 1072 00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:25,920 this took five companies to do, although I do think that it was 1073 00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:31,000 maybe some over selling on Dixon's part where like they 1074 00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,840 listed optimism which is just the chain that they use and I 1075 00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:37,280 doubt like optimism Labs or whoever runs that would probably 1076 00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:40,000 deeply involved you think so optimism. 1077 00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:44,200 Has a tendency to send out lots of, like their technical team 1078 00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:47,000 members, or at least money, to anyone who wants to build on 1079 00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:49,000 optimism or do anything on optimism. 1080 00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:52,560 Well, but Andreessen Horowitz also invests in optimism, so I 1081 00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:55,520 assumed that they were just like shilling one of their companies. 1082 00:57:55,600 --> 00:58:00,160 Absolutely Shills to name the companies that they specifically 1083 00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:01,760 had. And I'm 100% you're right, 1084 00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:03,360 Molly. Yeah, Regardless, this whole 1085 00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:05,280 thing has been hilarious to watch. 1086 00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:09,400 It's it's like watching the richest guy you've ever seen 1087 00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:13,640 just slipping and falling in the mud in his new white press suit 1088 00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:16,840 and it's just lovely and I love it and I'm happy it's happening 1089 00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:22,280 and I'm happy you reviewed the book and gave it a wonderful 1090 00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:25,600 review. Everyone read her very kind to 1091 00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:28,760 Chris Dixon review and lovely towards a 16. 1092 00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:33,120 ZI just want all the venture capitalists at like you'll have 1093 00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:36,120 to raise your camera. Who made it to Mini's minute 60 1094 00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:37,280 of this interview? Yeah, that's right. 1095 00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:41,560 You're adoring fans in the venture capital world. 1096 00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:43,960 A man can dream. All right. 1097 00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:46,360 Yeah. Molly, is there anything that 1098 00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:48,440 you, before we, you know, let you go? 1099 00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:51,600 Is there anything that you, I don't know, that you want to 1100 00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:54,240 talk about in terms of your blog or anything that you're working 1101 00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:56,600 on or anything like that? So if you want to read my 1102 00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:59,760 writing citation needed dot news you can sign up for a 1103 00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:01,840 subscription free or pay as you want. 1104 00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:06,800 And then I also run the website web3isgoingjustgreat.com which 1105 00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:09,760 is you can just go look at that, it's you don't have to pay for 1106 00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:11,520 it. Yeah, that's going to do it, I 1107 00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:15,800 guess, everyone. I'm writing the new read, write 1108 00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:19,840 cast coin is coming out very soon and it I'm going to be 1109 00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:23,640 doing a book tour for it and you're going to see it at #1 on 1110 00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:25,840 the New York Times. But it's I'm not going for #9. 1111 00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:27,800 Screw that. Next podcast is just going to be 1112 00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:30,040 like crates and crates of books behind you.