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Welcome back everyone. 
I am Cass PNC. 

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I'm joined as usual by my 
partner in crime, Mr. Bennett 

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Tomlin. 
How are you today? 

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Oh, I'm doing OK. 
How are you, Cass? 

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Whatever we are talking about a 
kind of a strange, I, I think 

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most people already know the 
answer, our answer to this 

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question. 
But there's kind of this there 

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was this weird moment today 
where it became a question of is

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Donald Trump and Donald Trump's 
and are Donald Trump's 

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administration, his 
administrators, cabinet, are 

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they corrupt? 
And I think for anyone who's 

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been following along for the 
past several months of the 

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podcast, I think, you know, our 
answer to that is absolutely, 

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100%. 
But this isn't about what we 

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think. 
This is about the fact that 

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after publishing a pretty 
damning article about all of the

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crazy bribe, like, I guess I'll 
say bribe like moments that are 

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occurring under the Trump 
administration, namely with 

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Trumpcoin. 
The New York Times put out this 

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article pretty damning. 
And then immediately after they 

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put it out, one of the authors 
of the article, Eric Lipton, put

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out a, a, a post on blue sky 
that said, you know, this isn't 

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corruption in, in more words 
than that, But basically, this 

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isn't corruption. 
You can't define it as. 

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Corruption. 
Right, it's potential 

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corruption. 
Theoretical corruption. 

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It's Schrodinger's corruption. 
The corruption must be observed 

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before you can officially 
declare that it is corruption. 

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But yeah, so let's we've talked 
about Trump coin before. 

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I think when we last talked 
about it, I'm not sure if the 

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dinner was a part of the 
narrative. 

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Probably, probably not. 
I think either way, we were 

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pretty worried about it and what
it meant. 

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But can you talk about what what
they did since the last time we 

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talked about Trump coin and what
it is? 

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Sure, Donald Trump issued A 
valueless meme coin. 

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And now that meme coin, the 
largest holders of it, at a 

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certain point in time, are going
to get an exclusive invite to 

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dinner with President Donald J 
Trump. 

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Among the people likely to 
attend to this dinner are is 

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Justin's son as well as a few 
others. 

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Well, it's probably Justin Son. 
And I say this because Justin 

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Sonny's wallet is not the one 
that acquired these tokens and 

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Justin Sonny's wallet is not the
one that signed to say it wants 

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to go to this event. 
That was HTX wallet. 

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And as we all know, Justin Son 
does not own HTX anyways. 

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That's a side issue that's not 
really related to this because 

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he does. 
He does. 

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He does fucking own it. 
But all these people can now buy

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their way into this meeting with
Trump and there was a discussion

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online about whether or not this
is corruption. 

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I obviously feel that it is 
corrupt for the president of the

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United States to issue a 
valueless cryptocurrency token, 

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allow people to purchase it, and
then let those selective people 

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come to him to pitch him on 
various official actions he 

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should take. 
I think that's obvious. 

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The reason this is controversial
is because, like Cass mentioned,

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Eric Lipton, an investigative 
reporter for the New York Times 

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who contributed to, again, like 
Cass said, a pretty damning 

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piece if you just take the facts
contained in the text of the 

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article. 
Chose to promote the article on 

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Blue Sky by describing this as 
kind of a case of potential 

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corruption. 
Eric's stance is that for a 

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thing to be corruption, you need
to like see the explicit quid 

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pro quo. 
So the transfer of value needs 

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to be done in exchange for an 
official act from the President 

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of the United States. 
So for example, if Justin Sun 

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had purchased a large stake in 
World Liberty Financial directly

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to get the official act of his 
criminal investigation and his 

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SEC case being dropped, that 
would be a bribe and would be 

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corruption. 
Now, if Justin Sun buys a 

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massive stake in World Liberty 
Financial, more than they were 

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originally intending to sell, 
and then the administration 

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drops his criminal investigation
and drops his SCC case, but we 

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can't prove those two things are
interrelated. 

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That is not necessarily 
corruption. 

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And so the debate that's been 
going on is how to describe 

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these obviously corrupt actions.
And part of the reason this is 

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important is because recently 
the Supreme Court has made it 

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much more challenging to 
criminally indict a president 

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for certain acts of corruption, 
including taking bribes. 

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So that's kind of the backdrop 
for this discussion. 

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I also want to point out that 
just, and maybe this is just me 

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misunderstanding the basic 
concept of quid pro quid pro 

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quo, but in my opinion, paying 
for the paying $2,000,000 to 

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have a private exclusive dinner 
with the president to pitch 

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whatever you want to him, it 
seems like a quid pro quo to me.

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Like that just feels like that 
is actually already a quid pro 

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quo. 
You're paying for exclusive time

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to pitch the president whatever 
you want. 

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And I know there's going to be 
an argument about like. 

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If that's an explicit quid pro 
quo, then all the people buying 

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like memberships at his club to 
spend time with him and stuff 

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like that are also participating
in an explicit quid pro quo. 

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Golly, that'd be something. 
There's a couple interesting 

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things about this that I I want 
to, I want to talk about 1. 

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I think the the obvious 
comparison and is, oh, well, you

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can do campaign dinners, you can
do campaign, you can do like you

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can do stuff where you give 
people exclusive or donors get 

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to like go to the, you know, the
Lincoln bedroom or whatever. 

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Like they're these, these things
have happened in the past 

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before. 
They're not new. 

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First of all, I think we 
probably shouldn't let that 

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stuff happen either. 
You know, what about ISM? 

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I don't think just because we 
let that happen right now, we 

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should let all corruption 
happen. 

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We probably shouldn't let that 
happen. 

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But two, doing campaign 
donations, you still have to 

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report it. 
You still like there are factors

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involved that allow people to 
kind of at least even if 

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there's, you know, super PACs 
and obviously ways to cloak 

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donations. 
This this is entering a 

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different stage of obfuscation. 
And one of the interesting 

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questions that I have is from 
the way everyone's talking about

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it, right, there's these 25 
wallets. 

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No one knows for sure who these 
wallets belong to. 

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And I'm just curious like is the
goal ultimately to never tell 

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the public who these 25 people 
are? 

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I like how, how could that 
possibly how? 

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How would that happen? 
Well, I think, sorry, before we 

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get into that one, yes, I think 
that is their goal. 

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I think they want to say as 
little as possible about as many

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of these things as possible as 
they can, right. 

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Like that's clearly in their 
best interest. 

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What's also interesting when you
made the comparison to 

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fundraising dinners is we have a
variety of different laws on who

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can give and how much can be 
given. 

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For example, like Qatar can't 
give $400 million to a Trump 

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super PAC. 
That's illegal. 

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Qatar could have one of their 
like members of their royal 

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family invest a bunch into this 
token and show up at this 

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dinner. 
Justin's son very limited in 

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what campaign contributions he 
can make. 

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Who do you think he is, Ryan 
Salami? 

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And so instead he would have to,
you know, hypothetically go out 

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and invest in Trump coin and 
World Liberty Financial. 

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There is a whole additional set 
of persons who cannot access the

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already corrupt pay for access 
system that is involved in 

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campaign finance. 
And so Trump has stood up an 

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additional more corrupt system 
to enable, and this is 

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highlighted in the New York 
Times article, I should say the 

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potential for these foreign 
influence OPS and stuff to take 

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advantage of this in a way they 
cannot easily take advantage of 

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other campaign things. 
Now, that's still a little bit 

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jingoistic. 
What The corruption coming from 

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the United States is OK, but the
corruption coming from Qatar is 

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not OK. 
But I think it is important to 

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highlight, just to contrast it 
with the other more banal types 

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of corruption we encounter on a 
day-to-day basis. 

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It's it's hard to judge the 
levels of corruptness in places 

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that are more authoritarian. 
I guess I would say generally 

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they they would suggest they're 
not corrupt at all. 

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But I mean, how would you know 
you have no window in? 

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But I guess in, in that sense, 
that feels like the route that 

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we're going on right now, which 
is there is no window anymore 

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into this. 
And maybe that speaks to what 

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corruption is, right, Like, and 
part of why so many people had a

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problem with the way that Eric 
Lipton discussed this. 

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I think he was trying to discuss
it in the most legal sense that 

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he could and try to say like, 
oh, well, legally speaking, 

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something, something, something.
But I think that that that's 

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it's a it's like almost 
apologism for allowing what can 

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only like there are few other 
reasons to close off these 

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windows into campaigns and 
politicians reporting their 

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financials and whatever small 
windows we have into that still 

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to close those off. 
I there there's very few reasons

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outside of corruption that that 
could be the case. 

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And I understand being like, Oh,
well, legally we can't 

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explicitly say that. 
But loudly making the argument 

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that that is not what you're 
saying, it just feels very 

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fucking weak, especially when 
you're the New York Times and 

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it's almost, it's almost like 
it's your duty as the, as the 

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most note, like paper of note in
America, the most important 

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paper in the world, arguably to 
be like, OK, well, this is what 

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this is. 
Maybe you just say corruption, 

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not in the legal sense. 
You know, maybe you explicitly 

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say that. 
Maybe you say that Wired just 

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published something right after 
the New York Times and they said

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it was quid pro quo. 
They explicitly said that. 

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So I don't know how Wired can 
say it, but the New York Times 

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can't. 
It doesn't make sense to me. 

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On that note, I also want to 
tell people subscribe to Wired. 

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It's awesome. 
I've I've been subscribed to 

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them for a while now and it's 
it's really great. 

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They do great reporting, you 
should subscribe. 

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And I think I think the other 
thing we should emphasize is 

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there what you're kind of 
getting at here is there is an 

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important difference between 
like the legal statues Trump 

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could potentially be charged 
under and like what corruption 

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is. 
You know, like using the office 

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of the presidency to make a 
bunch of deals that enrich you, 

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even if it's unclear how many of
your official actions you would 

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have done with or without. 
That enriching is still 

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corrupting. 
You're corrupting the office. 

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And like we've talked about kind
of with regulation before, you 

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are twisting the the like one 
way ratchet in the same way 

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deregulation does. 
I think Corey Frayer was the one

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you talked about this when he 
was on like whence once you 

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deregulate, it is very hard to 
bring the regulations back. 

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You've turned that back in a way
people struggle to turn it the 

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other way. 
I think a very similar thing 

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happens with public trust in 
institutions and public trust in

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politicians. 
When you have enough people who 

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are openly corrupt in this kind 
of way, it is very hard to 

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convince people that it. 
But like the honesty is the path

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out of that. 
And you also made a comparison 

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to like, is this the like, I 
think one of the most accurate 

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comparisons that kind of gets 
close to this moment we're at is

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like the moment where the USSR 
collapsed and Russia started 

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transitioning from this like 
pseudo market economy controlled

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economy to like this full kind 
of mob state, oligarchical, 

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kleptocratic, really it's a mob 
state. 

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Like there's organized crime 
entities that run huge portions 

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of effectively the Russian state
apparatus. 

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And that seems to be kind of 
what the Trump administration 

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and the Trump cronies envision 
is the future of the United 

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States. 
Various parts of the state power

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and capacity being either sold 
to them, delegated to them, or 

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otherwise effectively 
transferred from the democratic 

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control of the state and the 
people who control it to a 

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smaller number of oligarchs who 
will define the path forward. 

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And like I think Alex Carp and 
Palantir is I think one of the 

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companies that like really seems
most committed to this or Andrea

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is the other one with their like
drones and things. 

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Or Elon Musk suggest suggesting 
like he wants to create a space 

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defense laser system to shoot 
down nukes or whatever, but that

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he's not actually going to sell 
that to the United States. 

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He's going to sell the United 
States access to his space based

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super weapon. 
It is the transitioning of the 

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holding of these levers of power
from the more democratic 

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institutions straight into the 
hands of these corrupt and 

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corruptible individuals. 
The the problem I have with the 

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way that they presented this 
article, which again, you should

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read the New York Times article 
as well. 

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It's a good article, but the way
that Eric Lipton presented this 

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article was from a defensive 
shielding yourself from some 

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sort of legal repercussion that 
you're imagining is going to 

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happen. 
Even though at no point in the 

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article did they state anything 
about like, they never said 

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quid. 
I don't think they like they 

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never said quid pro quid. 
They don't say, they don't say 

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the words that are like they or 
they say could be thought of as 

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right. 
They like they clearly already 

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shielded themselves from the 
possible legal repercussions to 

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start arguing with your audience
is like, what? 

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How? 
How scared of Donald Trump are 

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you and why are you so scared of
him? 

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You're the New York fucking 
Times. 

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Like, if anyone shouldn't be 
scared of this guy, it's you. 

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You have great lawyers. 
You have a shit ton of money. 

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Carlos Slim is a major investor.
What are you afraid of? 

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What in the world are you afraid
of? 

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And why are you so afraid? 
Because that makes that means 

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that's This is why it's like a 
silencing effect, right? 

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This is something where it's 
like, OK, well, if the New York 

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Times is fucking being afraid, I
guess all of us should be afraid

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then. 
I I mean, arguably all of us 

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should be afraid, right? 
We are in a fascist takeover of 

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the United States. 
The state is unlawfully 

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kidnapping and detaining people,
removing them from the state, 

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and they have expressed their 
desire to like eliminate the 

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writ of habeas corpus. 
Very broadly, everyone, 

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especially anyone, like vocally 
or publicly against the 

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administration should have a 
certain degree of fear. 

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I think that's rational. 
I also think just getting at The

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New York Times, it is. 
This is one of the more clear 

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examples of the New York Times 
House style, which is where the 

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headline will be. 
Trump tries crazy trick and 

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buried in like paragraph 20, 
it'll be like, here's the crazy 

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illegal part. 
And then in paragraph 22, you'll

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get critics call this the most 
batshit insane thing I've ever 

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seen. 
So you have to like whenever 

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you're reading The New York 
Times, if that's a thing you do 

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for some reason, you have to 
actually read it because the 

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headline, the headline has 
barely anything to do with the 

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text. 
And the important part of the 

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text, and Wall Street Journal 
does this too, is like at least 

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15 paragraphs down. 
They didn't get it up in the nut

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graft. 
They didn't get it up in the 

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lead. 
It's way buried in there because

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like you said, it's like they're
they're so worried about the 

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legal liability around like 
defamation and libel. 

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And the administration has again
said they want to challenge 

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Sullivan. 
So it's like not crazy to 

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believe that there's going to be
changes in defamation and libel 

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law. 
But the New York Times, I've 

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00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:45,880
heard a statistic that I'm not 
going to try and source right 

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00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,160
now that the New York Times 
employs almost 10% of 

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journalists in the United 
States. 

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00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,840
Like if you're not willing to 
speak truth to power, then who 

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00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,840
else can? 
I know that other like CBS has 

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00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,640
already caved to the Trump 
administration. 

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They've already agreed to pair 
however much insane amount of 

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00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:08,200
money, and I'm sure there's been
other media conglomerates that 

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00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,400
have also already caved and 
given him money. 

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00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,359
I can't remember which ones. 
When 60 Minutes had a bunch of 

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00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,680
people resigned because they 
were ready to cave. 

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00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:20,880
Right, right. 
Yeah, I mean, this is I, those 

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00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,040
are institutions that shouldn't 
be doing it either. 

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00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,520
But like the New York Times, 
again, it stands for something 

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00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:29,240
larger than just like, Oh well, 
it's a newspaper. 

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00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:35,760
Like it is the most important 
newspaper, again, arguably in 

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00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,480
the world. 
And I think it absolutely has a 

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00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:45,080
a liberal tinge to it. 
But I if liberal tinge is like, 

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00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,200
well, let's just not call Trump 
corrupt then. 

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00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,760
I don't even like that's, I 
don't know what liberal tinge 

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00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,760
even means anymore. 
That doesn't like, you can't 

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00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:55,800
stand for that. 
What can you fucking stand for? 

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00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,120
So yeah, it's, it's it's it's 
wild. 

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00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,320
When I think the most important 
thing for us to take away from 

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00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:07,960
this moment is that for all of 
us, I think it is critically 

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00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,120
important that as many people 
who can describe the things they

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00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:17,880
see as they see them. 
There still needs to be a belief

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00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:22,560
in some amount of reality or the
value of truth or things like 

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00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,480
that for there to be any kind of
path out of this. 

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00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,800
And like, those things do 
matter. 

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00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,280
Like corrupt corruption and not 
being corrupt matters. 

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00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,840
Doing good things instead of bad
things fucking matters, you 

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00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,040
know? 
I mean, if it is never disclosed

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00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:43,800
who goes to this dinner? 
I mean, to me that is like one 

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00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,880
of the most insane, illegal, 
corrupt corruption. 

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00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:54,640
Like we're on like we're, I 
don't know who. 

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00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:56,160
I was talking to a friend 
yesterday. 

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00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:58,800
I feel like we're getting past 
Nixon at this point. 

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00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,800
Like we are moving well past 
Nixon into territory that is 

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00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,200
like, I know we have an episode.
I know we have an episode about 

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00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,320
this. 
The Valentine's Day massacre was

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00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:11,080
arguably worse than the Saturday
Day or the Saturday Day. 

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00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:14,160
The Valentine's Day Massacre was
worse than the Saturday Night 

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00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:15,720
Massacre. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:19,080
And that's not all right. 
Like a $400 million gift that 

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00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:24,320
you're gonna take with you after
you leave office is insane. 

333
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:26,960
It's insane. 
No, No president has ever done 

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00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,800
anything like this before. 
And yet again, the idea that 

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00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,320
you're like, I'm going to have a
secret meeting with 25 people 

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00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,960
have no idea if they're like, 
they could be they could be 

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00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,840
Chinese, they could be Russian, 
they could be Saudi. 

338
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,040
They could who the fuck knows 
where they're from. 

339
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,640
They they are just in Sun 
probably. 

340
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,240
Yeah, I, I. 
By the way, if Warren G Harding 

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00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,480
just said the Teapot Dome is 
mine now, not even talking about

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00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,880
corrupt contracts, he was just 
like, no, this is mine. 

343
00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:00,800
I'm taking it. 
It's it's me. 

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00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,080
And loudly, like just said it to
everyone was like, I'm doing the

345
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,480
thing that is definitely not OK.
And then and then there were 

346
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,440
people who came out and said 
it's potentially corrupt for 

347
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,560
Warren G Harding to declare the 
Teapot Dome his new personal 

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00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,000
ranch. 
And for what it's worth, I know 

349
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,280
we're now we're entering 
ridiculous territory where we're

350
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,440
talking about Warren G Harding 
and everyone lost fucking 

351
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,720
interest. 
But it it just it just tells you

352
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,880
that that I he's using that 
Bennett's using that example 

353
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:32,040
because Harding was considered 
or is still considered the least

354
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:36,000
popular, like one of the worst 
presidents in history, if not 

355
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,600
the worst of all time for 
America. 

356
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:46,720
And again, Trump is flown past 
this with the scale of 

357
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,240
corruption and the levels of 
ineptitude. 

358
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,880
We don't we're not we're not 
even getting into the tariffs 

359
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,760
again, which are clearly just 
extortion like that is clearly 

360
00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,800
just extorting other. 
I mean that like, that's how 

361
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:06,040
Qatar is going to get rid of 
their tariffs, by giving Donald 

362
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:07,840
Trump a $400 million airplane, 
right? 

363
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:09,160
Like that is how this shit is 
going to. 

364
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:10,480
Work. 
That's what I call closing a 

365
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,400
trade deficit. 
Art of the deal, baby. 

366
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,960
What trade, Donald? 
There is no trade deficit for 

367
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,720
Donald Trump, motherfuckers. 
So I don't know, man. 

368
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,880
I, I guess I, I wanted to talk 
about it because I think we need

369
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:26,400
we, there's a few things that 
need to be clear. 

370
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,520
We all need to be able to say 
what is going on with this 

371
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,360
administration and not be afraid
to say it. 

372
00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:35,520
I know, I know there there are 
reasons to fear this 

373
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,960
administration, but you cannot 
be like they can take my speech 

374
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:45,120
and I guess I'll just move on. 
And especially from the the 

375
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,400
journalists. 
There's a lot of things you have

376
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,560
to do while you're afraid. 
That's just life. 

377
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:50,880
Like by cast coin.