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Welcome back everyone. 
I am Cass Piancy. 

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I'm joined, as usual, by my 
partner in crime, Bennett 

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Tomlin. 
We're both dressed exactly the 

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same because we're recording one
episode right after the other, 

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so no need to check in. 
We already know how we're both 

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doing. 
We are going to be talking about

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something that I'm surprised we 
haven't addressed in the months 

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and months and months, years, I 
guess, now that it's been going 

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on. 
But we're going to be talking 

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about World Coin today, which is
now officially released. 

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So I guess now is the time to 
discuss it. 

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If you're not familiar with 
World Coin, I'll just quickly 

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bring you up to the basics of 
it, which is to say that it is a

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token associated with what are 
called the orbs. 

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And these orbs are iris scanning
orbs. 

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Like literally orbs. 
They're about this big and you 

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put your face up to it and it 
scans your irises. 

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And in places outside of the US 
and a few other countries, you 

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get World Coin for it. 
You get this token for scanning 

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your eyeballs. 
I don't know if it's like 25 

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World coin, something like that,
right? 

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You get some amount of world 
coin for scanning your eyeballs.

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In the US you get nothing for 
scanning your eyeballs. 

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So that is a beautiful benefit 
for giving up your personal data

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is that you get nothing. 
Why are they scanning irises? 

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This is a proof of personhood 
concept where they are proving 

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that you are a human being. 
This is by the same guy who 

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brought U.S. 
Open AI. 

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So the idea is that we need to 
start worrying about Ai's 

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ability to imitate humans, and 
we're going to need to come up 

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with some way quickly to counter
this. 

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And the bet they're going with 
is iris scans. 

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I think I've got that pretty 
much right. 

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What did I miss? 
Bennett, go ahead. 

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Are you sure they're Iris? 
I thought they were retina. 

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It's iris scanning, I think. 
So yeah, as you mentioned, 

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there's these orbs. 
They scan your eyeball and then 

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they generate from that a key. 
This key corresponds to your 

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address in a cryptographic way. 
And it is all supposed to be 

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done in a way using zero 
knowledge proofs where you can 

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like where this can be revealed 
without necessarily revealing 

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you. 
And like you mentioned, the idea

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they wanted to solve is various 
forms of Sybil attacks. 

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In cryptocurrency, this can 
sometimes be one person running 

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a lot of addresses. 
Or, as you mentioned, in the 

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future this might be a I agents 
pretending to be human. 

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In cases where we only want 
humans involved. 

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The problems with it are myriad.
But I think what's what's 

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especially fascinating is some 
of the reporting that came out 

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when they first launched The 
Orb, where there were stories of

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people being coerced. 
To effectively give up this 

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biometric data and we're being 
forced to effectively then 

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transfer the coins they were 
given to other individuals right

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where the people who were giving
up their identifying 

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information, we're not actually 
getting the supposed reward. 

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And that this that was one of 
the interesting dynamics when 

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they first launched these orbs. 
There's also been other issues 

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with this and the one that's 
concerned me the most that I 

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heard about it was and and we're
specifically talking about 

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gaming the system here, both you
and I. 

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The the one that I heard about 
was that Chinese investors or or

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not investors. 
I don't know what the the term 

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is for this according to them, 
but people who, people who were 

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given the orbs to go scan 
eyeballs with them, The people 

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who were given that duty in 
China were going to places like 

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Myanmar and other Southeast 
Asian countries bribing people 

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with, I don't know, something 
cheap, right, Like a cigarette 

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or whatever, right. 
Something that they could hand 

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out to thousands and thousands 
of people and in return they 

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were giving them nothing, right?
They weren't giving them their 

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their data, they weren't giving 
them their coins. 

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There was there was number, 
there was number trade off here.

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They were just fucking taking 
these people's data, harvesting 

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it for themselves and then able 
to accumulate thousands, 

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millions of world coin, 
whatever. 

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That's pretty scary. 
That is really unfortunate. 

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And but also again, none of this
shocks me like none. 

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It never like, oh, people are 
going to be greedy and there's a

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system that can be gamed. 
Wow, I can't believe this is 

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happening, but I think part of 
the issue that we're the reason 

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we're talking about these two 
examples for instance, is 

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because if it's so easily gamed 
by people right now, just greedy

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people, why would you think this
would be able to stand the test 

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of a very, very intelligent, 
hyper aware AI? 

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Or right like I am? 
I'm certain there are 

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considerations not being made 
for how this could be attacked 

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and destroyed. 
And broadly, like, let's imagine

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we accidentally create Skynet, 
why wouldn't the like? 

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A I like you're saying go on 
Craigslist and post an ad and 

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take advantage of the people who
show up, right? 

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Pay someone to go stand out 
there with the orb or whatever 

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and like, do whatever to try to 
inappropriately fool this 

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system. 
And broadly, is having an 

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address tied irrevocably to your
biometric information? 

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That tracks your various 
interactions. 

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Really desirable. 
I understand the point of world 

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Coin is that these zero 
knowledge proofs may prevent 

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that information from being 
wrongfully exposed, But man, it 

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feels like you're putting a lot 
on that assumption. 

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Yeah. 
And I well, so and to be fair 

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here, I think a lot of the 
argument against what we're even

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saying right now would be you're
giving a lot of trust to all 

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sorts of people right now. 
Like you are trusting the 

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government with your Social 
Security number and other data 

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like important data, you're 
trusting your credit card 

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companies with or your banks 
with a bunch of important data 

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and and these these people have 
leaked data time and time and 

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time and time and time again. 
So you know, are we safer now 

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necessarily than with this 
thing? 

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I don't know. 
I don't know about that. 

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I mean. 
We're objectively worse, right? 

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Because those things still 
exist. 

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Those things will continue to 
exist. 

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This is in addition to that, oh,
a new attack vector. 

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Sure. 
Yeah, sure. 

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But the the the goal and and and
I don't know if this is still 

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one of the things that's 
mentioned with World Coin but I 

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know that there's like people 
who see this as like a way to 

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move forward with universal 
basic income or some other like 

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societal they they try to spin 
these projects as like a 

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societal value add right. 
That this would ultimately be a 

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good thing for society to have. 
And they'll spin that any way 

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they can, whether that's like 
you believe in Ubi or maybe 

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maybe you're scared of a I or, 
you know, whatever whatever it 

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is, they're going to fucking 
spin it so that you also believe

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in this thing. 
And World Coin has been really 

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good at that. 
And I do see right now kind of a

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there's certainly hype. 
I don't know how else to put it.

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There's some hype going on with 
World Coin right now. 

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And I think one of the common 
refrains I've seen on like from 

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multiple journalists is this 
angle of like, well, I talked to

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Sam Altman about World Coin and,
you know, Sam seems like a good 

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guy. 
And I'm like OK, I. 

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I'm sorry. 
Oh, the guy with the with the 

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bunker and the guns. 
The guy with the guy with the 

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gun bunker. 
That's the good look regardless 

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though. 
Like I I'm not gonna You and I 

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both don't know Sam Altman and 
like to be quite honest. 

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I don't care to ever meet him. 
I don't care about meeting super

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rich VCs who have bunkers and 
stuff. 

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It's not not not a concern or 
it's not a care for me. 

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It's not something you. 
Won't survive the AI apocalypse.

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Yeah. 
The A I Exactly the A I 

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apocalypse. 
I won't. 

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Terminator will Take Me Out. 
But you know what? 

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That's okay. 
I'm okay with that. 

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Anyway. 
I don't care if he's a good guy 

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is my point. 
He could be the best guy. 

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And you know what they keep 
saying His intentions seem very 

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good. 
I I don't know why no one has 

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heard. 
Heard the phrase the the road to

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hell is paved with good 
intentions. 

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That it is a phrase for a 
reason. 

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These generalizations exist 
because there's like his 

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historic you see it time and 
time again. 

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Lots of fucking creepy weirdos 
had the best intentions. 

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I don't like that. 
Doesn't matter what their 

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intentions were. 
What matters. 

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And this gets into a bit of what
we were talking about with EA 

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too. 
But like this is actions speak 

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louder than words and you're 
making an up like the Panopticon

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here. 
Why? 

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Why would I be like, oh, but he 
is nice though he's making the 

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panopticon, but he's like a very
nice guy. 

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That's a kind of hilarious 
reference for you to make in 

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this case, because Sam Bankman 
freed personally said that his 

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like favorite philosopher was 
Jeremy Bantham, A utilitarian 

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philosopher who created the 
Panopticon, the Panopticon 

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believes. 
That the creation of a 

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Panopticon was the thing that 
would create a moral and just 

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society, right? 
Right. 

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Yeah, I know. 
I mean that. 

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I almost feel like a lot of the 
these, I feel like a lot of 

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these wealthy VC guys who are a 
lot of them are on board with 

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Worldcoin, for what it's worth, 
right? 

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They've partnered. 
I don't know who their partner 

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are they with A16Z? 
I feel like that would make 

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sense if they if they were 
funded by A16Z. 

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I don't know. 
I I don't know off the top of my

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head broadly, I don't really. 
Think that it matters which VCs.

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Pretend they like Sam Altman and
Worldcoin. 

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They just want to make sure that
next Time nailed it. 

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I fucking nailed it, dude. 
I knew it. 

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Oh yeah, a 16. 
I knew it led the round. 

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I knew it. 
It's it's they're so 

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predictable. 
They are so predictable. 

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I, I, I, I you know not to 
revel. 

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In either A16Z loves investing 
in Y Combinator people. 

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That's a tale as old as time, 
yeah. 

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Invested in the token offering 
and the VC rounds? 

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But they also love investing in 
fucking creepy crypto projects 

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too. 
And that is a that is, as long 

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as that's been happening, they 
have been leading those rounds 

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as well. 
I oh, I just can't stand them. 

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Yeah, good for them. 
They also are for For what it's 

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worth. 
I know this is off topic, but 

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there's a lot of discussion 
right now going around about a 

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16Z dumping their maker maker 
coins because yeah, they've 

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failed to do well with them and 
so now they're just market 

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dumping. 
Part of my point here is that 

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World Coin is getting invested 
in by A16Z and Multicoin Capital

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and Jesus God, Khosla Ventures. 
All of these guys, they're not, 

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they're not investing in them 
because they believe in Ubi and 

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want to make the world a better 
place. 

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That's not why they're investing
in World Coin. 

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They're investing in it because 
they want to make a fucking 

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buck. 
And the best people to make a 

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buck off of is retail backs. 
That's always the answer. 

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Well, and the other way to be 
confident you're going to be 

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able to capitalize on that. 
Is investing in someone who 

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you've already been able to 
capitalize on, like getting 

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liquidity from their things 
right? 

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00:11:42,390 --> 00:11:45,070
So if someone's already been 
successful, it's way easier for 

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them to raise money, because 
VC's become convinced that like,

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well, at the very least, we'll 
have a chance to sell this 

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before he totally burns it down,
right? 

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Yep. 
It's also worth pointing out 

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that I don't. 
Neither one of us is calling 

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World Coin like a scam. 
It's not like a fraud. 

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I. 
Think it does. 

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Isn't describes I think exactly.
Bad thing. 

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Exactly. 
We don't like the product. 

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We don't like who's involved in 
the product and we don't like 

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what they think is like the good
things about it. 

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None of it seems like a positive
to us and that's why we're 

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talking about it. 
It's not because it's a fraud. 

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It's not because it's a it's not
it. 

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We're not making any any claims 
like that. 

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Yeah, I do think that the the 
excuse of like good intentions 

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and who knows and maybe some 
good can be brought with this. 

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It's just it's not good enough 
for me. 

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I don't like that. 
I don't like that as a as an 

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excuse. 
I think it's weak and and I 

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don't think this as you said I 
don't think this product like I 

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think it's a terrible product. 
I think it shouldn't exist as a 

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product and while I'm not 
hopeful that it disappears, I 

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I'm obviously I think it's 
important that you and I discuss

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it and and voice our own 
personal opinion against this 

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thing that they're they're 
making all these broad claims 

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about. 
Two separate things I want to 

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add. 1 I personally hate it 
because I personally hate 

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innovation and innovators. 
Personally, I think they're bad 

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people, you know. 
And two, I do think it's going 

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to eventually fade to obscurity.
I don't think World Coin solves 

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in a meaningfully better way. 
Any of the actual problems 

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people are encountering, they'll
be. 

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Able to expand their network for
as long as they're paying people

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to give up their initial 
information. 

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But after that it will gradually
die out, as most of these 

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products do, because most people
don't actually want to use them.

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And again, as we keep circling 
around, this doesn't actually 

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solve like a clear and pressing 
need for its users. 

253
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No, it doesn't. 
We forgot two of their most 

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important backers, 3. 
Arrows Capital and SPF. 

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They took money from all kinds 
of great folks. 

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I don't know, this project 
sucks. 

257
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The reasoning for it sucks. 
I don't trust the people 

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involved. 
I don't trust the people 

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investing in it. 
It has trouble written all over 

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it. 
Also, the reason it's not being 

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offered in the United States is 
because it would be in 

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unregistered security if they 
decided to do that. 

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And I think that's clear because
they're not. 

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They're not giving away these 
coins in the in America, which 

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OK, fine. 
I guess they don't want to go 

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through the proper paperwork or 
whatever it would take to to 

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make this available to U.S. 
citizens. 

268
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I don't know what the trading 
policy is for it. 

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For American citizens, I'm sure 
you can hold it. 

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I mean where? 
Is it listed? 

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Well, yeah. 
Getting your hands on it is a 

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whole different story. 
We that probably does involve 

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some weird illegal shit, but 
whatever. 

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Who knows? 
Maybe you could just do P to P 

275
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That's not illegal. 
Having someone with some world 

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coin in a different place sell 
it to you wouldn't be illegal, I

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don't think. 
Not. 

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A lawyer? 
I have no idea. 

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It's an it's just an interesting
thought I'm I'm considering 

280
00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,600
right now because I I know 
there's going to be a lot of 

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Americans who are going to get 
their hands on it and I'm trying

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to be like well they're not 
they're not violating any law 

283
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but maybe they're violating a 
law Just, you know, however 

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they're figuring out a way to 
get it. 

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Regardless though that's not the
people I want. 

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I I I just wish like I don't 
know it seems like a lot of 

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people are pretty ready and 
willing to give up their their 

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biometric data for very little 
which I don't know There's I 

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00:15:19,340 --> 00:15:22,060
guess there's other arguments 
here that I've heard. 

290
00:15:23,220 --> 00:15:26,580
You know, you give the 
government, you have to give 

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your government biometric data 
to get the whatever it's called,

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00:15:30,700 --> 00:15:36,640
like fast pass stuff for being 
at the airport, TSA pre-check. 

293
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And there's the other one, 
there's two different kinds. 

294
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There's TSA Pre-check and some 
other method and one of those is

295
00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:48,800
eyeball retina scan I think. 
And one of them is another form 

296
00:15:50,450 --> 00:15:53,450
that like just just to be clear 
here, that provides like some 

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00:15:53,450 --> 00:15:57,370
pretty sincere value. 
Like that is a quite a valuable 

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00:15:57,370 --> 00:15:59,770
resource for a lot of people. 
If you're traveling all the time

299
00:15:59,770 --> 00:16:03,130
being able to skip these big 
lines and do your thing, that is

300
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a super valuable resource to 
them. 

301
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Definitely worth more than 25 
made-up fucking coins on a 

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00:16:09,170 --> 00:16:13,970
blockchain. 
I'll also add the stance that 

303
00:16:14,650 --> 00:16:17,570
our abuses are no worse than 
those of the United States 

304
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government. 
Perhaps not the best selling 

305
00:16:20,510 --> 00:16:23,030
point you can come up with for 
your private company. 

306
00:16:24,950 --> 00:16:26,430
Yeah. 
Fair, fair. 

307
00:16:26,550 --> 00:16:27,710
Fair, right? 
Yeah. 

308
00:16:27,750 --> 00:16:30,110
Hey, the Chinese government also
collects all this information. 

309
00:16:30,110 --> 00:16:35,270
What's the big deal I mean? 
That would be the deal. 

310
00:16:37,190 --> 00:16:39,350
Yeah. 
Yeah, fair enough. 

311
00:16:39,350 --> 00:16:42,830
Anyway, yeah, this is, this is a
pretty fast episode. 

312
00:16:42,830 --> 00:16:44,150
I don't think there's much for 
us to say. 

313
00:16:44,150 --> 00:16:46,510
We're not. 
We're not violently opposed to 

314
00:16:46,510 --> 00:16:49,710
them, to them, like existing as 
an entity. 

315
00:16:49,710 --> 00:16:52,470
We're not trying to convince 
people they're scamming you. 

316
00:16:53,070 --> 00:16:59,310
We just disagree with with why 
they exist and why they pretend 

317
00:16:59,310 --> 00:17:00,470
that they're important. 
I don't know. 

318
00:17:00,470 --> 00:17:02,110
Yeah. 
Anything else you'd like to add 

319
00:17:02,110 --> 00:17:04,230
about this project? 
The last thing I want to close 

320
00:17:04,230 --> 00:17:07,349
on is I think World Coin is a 
good example of the kind of 

321
00:17:07,349 --> 00:17:10,750
jargon washing that can happen. 
Will you take a bad idea 

322
00:17:10,910 --> 00:17:13,829
scanning people's eyeballs and 
giving them a Chuck E Cheese 

323
00:17:13,829 --> 00:17:16,220
token? 
And you run it through enough 

324
00:17:16,220 --> 00:17:21,420
buzzwords. 
AI, Biometric data verification.

325
00:17:21,420 --> 00:17:24,579
Civil resistance, 0 knowledge 
proof, censorship resistant 

326
00:17:24,579 --> 00:17:26,339
transfers. 
By the time you've gotten 

327
00:17:26,339 --> 00:17:28,580
through all your buzzwords, 
people have forgotten that your 

328
00:17:28,580 --> 00:17:30,860
pitches will scan your eyeball 
and give you Chuck E Cheese 

329
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tokens. 
And there's a lot of projects in

330
00:17:33,620 --> 00:17:36,180
cryptocurrency that do 
fundamentally that same trick. 

331
00:17:36,420 --> 00:17:39,180
They layer enough jargon and 
bullshit on top of the 

332
00:17:39,180 --> 00:17:42,300
fundamentally bad idea. 
That they hope enough people 

333
00:17:42,300 --> 00:17:44,460
will forget that it's a 
fundamentally bad idea. 

334
00:17:44,460 --> 00:17:45,820
And I think that's what 
Worldcoin is. 

335
00:17:45,860 --> 00:17:48,180
I think it probably does exactly
what they say it does. 

336
00:17:48,460 --> 00:17:50,660
It's just not a thing we need 
anything doing. 

337
00:17:50,780 --> 00:17:54,020
Yeah. 
And a lot of our listeners have 

338
00:17:54,020 --> 00:17:58,660
actually been pointing out that 
Cascoin collects hair samples 

339
00:17:58,660 --> 00:18:02,380
from everyone who buys it, that 
we also take blood samples, 

340
00:18:02,500 --> 00:18:08,320
stool samples and like keep a 
host of other data about every 

341
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,200
Cascoin holder. 
And I just want to point out 

342
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,360
that it is not the same and 
Cascoin is like decentralized 

343
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:21,240
and that that data, while it is 
sold on the open market and it 

344
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,080
does have, it does have your 
name and address and all of your

345
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,560
all of your data like associated
with you like attached to it. 

346
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,640
It isn't like it's anonymous. 
That is important. 

347
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,560
Like don't you want to get 
served good ads? 

348
00:18:35,230 --> 00:18:37,550
And that is what I want to close
on. 

349
00:18:37,550 --> 00:18:39,910
Thanks everyone for listening 
and we'll be back soon.