1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:09,600 Welcome back everyone. I am cast PNC and I'm joined as 2 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,800 usual by my partner in crime. Mr. Bennett Tomlin how are you 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:13,800 today? I'm doing well. 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,600 Cass, how are you? I'm hanging in there honestly, 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:19,600 I've been trying to wrap my head around Tara. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:24,100 Today, we planned on doing this episode while ago, but I'm going 7 00:00:24,100 --> 00:00:28,300 to come forward and say that I I've never taken algorithmic 8 00:00:28,300 --> 00:00:30,400 stable coin. Seriously, it's not something. 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,700 Ever thought would gain or Garner attention. 10 00:00:34,300 --> 00:00:38,300 Clearly, I was wrong about that. So I'm willing to admit that 11 00:00:38,300 --> 00:00:40,400 much. But I'm not yet willing to 12 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,300 concede is that my belief is that they always fail. 13 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,100 That's my belief I guess based on the fact that none of them 14 00:00:47,100 --> 00:00:51,000 have succeeded as of yet, but I'm sure we'll have some 15 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:55,400 pushback on that comment in and of itself because if I recall 16 00:00:55,400 --> 00:01:00,500 correctly, Matt Levine did his normal newsletter and the the An 17 00:01:00,508 --> 00:01:05,099 omen that you had a debate with decided to reach out to Matt 18 00:01:05,099 --> 00:01:08,200 Levine, to tell him how wrong he was about algorithmic stable 19 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:09,700 coin. So first of all, you know, this 20 00:01:09,700 --> 00:01:12,500 one is about Tara, it's not about fracks but will include 21 00:01:12,500 --> 00:01:14,900 that episode, you did on blockchain debate podcast in the 22 00:01:14,900 --> 00:01:17,800 show notes. But, look, I went on their site 23 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,700 and what I decided to do before we jumped on was learn as much 24 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,800 as I could about Tara based on what their website was telling 25 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,400 me. I didn't learn very much but I 26 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,800 would love to hear your explanation of how Tara Because 27 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,300 when they try to get into how it works, they make it so simple 28 00:01:35,300 --> 00:01:39,500 that it's incredibly vague. Yeah, algorithmic stable coins 29 00:01:39,500 --> 00:01:44,400 in general are all a well-coordinated game in trying 30 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:48,000 to convince a sufficient mass of people that a thing that has no 31 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,600 reason to be valuable is definitely valuable, right? 32 00:01:51,700 --> 00:01:57,100 And so Tara is effectively collateralized by the governance 33 00:01:57,100 --> 00:02:00,800 token Luna. So the way this works is Is 34 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,700 through the protocol. You can exchange about a dollars 35 00:02:03,700 --> 00:02:07,500 worth of Luna for a dollars worth of Tara USD, which I'll 36 00:02:07,500 --> 00:02:10,199 probably just called Terra for the rest of this episode or vice 37 00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:13,200 versa. You can exchange one Tara for 38 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,700 about a dollars worth of Luna, and this is the main thing that 39 00:02:17,700 --> 00:02:22,200 is meant to keep Tara at Peg. The fact that you can get Luna 40 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,900 for it and that's, that's the whole thing is that if we all 41 00:02:25,900 --> 00:02:30,100 assume Luna is valuable, then we can use it as collateral to make 42 00:02:30,100 --> 00:02:31,500 this thing. That kind of looks like a 43 00:02:31,508 --> 00:02:35,000 currency and as long as Lunas valuable and as long as enough 44 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,700 people think the currency like thing is valuable. 45 00:02:38,100 --> 00:02:42,000 Then it continues working. The issue becomes if people stop 46 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,800 believing either of those things so they're just doing Fiat. 47 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:46,000 Yeah. No. 48 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,700 No, they really are and like algorithmic, stable coins, are 49 00:02:48,700 --> 00:02:51,900 one of the purest examples of that I think. 50 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,700 And like this is the difficulty with hair, has a lot of the 51 00:02:54,700 --> 00:02:58,700 things terraform labs are doing our unsustainable. 52 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,200 So, let's start with the anchor. A lending Market terraform Labs 53 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,200 the company behind Tara supports. 54 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,100 This provides funds for their yield Reserve so that they can 55 00:03:08,100 --> 00:03:12,200 pay out a higher interest rate to lenders than the market 56 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:16,000 actually wants to give them and so by paying out this twenty 57 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,200 percent guaranteed interest rate, they hope to help Drive 58 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:23,200 demand for UST and in driving demand for UST, they hope it 59 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:27,100 continues to grow to such a point that it hits some kind of 60 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,400 inflection point or Tipping Point where there's such a 61 00:03:30,500 --> 00:03:34,800 Belief in it in such an exotic - demand for it that you no longer 62 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:36,800 need to do the unsustainable things. 63 00:03:36,900 --> 00:03:39,700 Unlike terraform labs in lunatics and all the people 64 00:03:39,700 --> 00:03:42,000 behind Tara will admit that many of these things are 65 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,400 unsustainable, right? Like continuing to subsidize 66 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,800 everyone who wants to lend this token, cannot go on forever. 67 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,300 But the counter-argument, they try to present is that maybe we 68 00:03:52,300 --> 00:03:55,100 can do this for long enough. That enough people will think 69 00:03:55,100 --> 00:03:57,500 this is valuable that eventually, we will be able to 70 00:03:57,500 --> 00:04:02,200 stop It's not sure. I don't think people want to 71 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:07,000 hear me be super cynical and almost pissed off. 72 00:04:07,100 --> 00:04:10,500 But if this is like an accurate representation of what's going 73 00:04:10,500 --> 00:04:15,300 on, I'm just confused. I'm confused because so many 74 00:04:15,300 --> 00:04:20,399 people seem to believe that there is real value here and 75 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:23,300 that they're doing something totally different and new and 76 00:04:23,300 --> 00:04:25,500 Innovative. Like even as I watched their own 77 00:04:25,500 --> 00:04:28,700 explanation of this, like they're doing weird stuff. 78 00:04:28,900 --> 00:04:31,400 I don't like, why are they pegging the special drawing 79 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,000 rights of the IMF? They're not, what like, oh no. 80 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,200 What see you talking about? Tara s DT, which is meant to Peg 81 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,400 to Str imf's measure of like this commodity group of baskets 82 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:43,700 and it makes sense. You think that because they talk 83 00:04:43,700 --> 00:04:46,600 about it, like all the time in the white paper and Daquan wrote 84 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,500 a whole paper about how this multi stable coin system, 85 00:04:49,500 --> 00:04:52,500 depends on that specific thing in order to provide liquidity 86 00:04:52,500 --> 00:04:55,500 across these and provide a unit of account that's Global and all 87 00:04:55,500 --> 00:04:57,500 this, but they don't use it anymore. 88 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,500 I mean, it's nominally We used in a couple places in the code 89 00:05:00,500 --> 00:05:03,400 to deal with the math but like the total circulating supply of 90 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,800 that specific token is in like the dozens like not even the 91 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,900 thousands like the dozens because it's not actually how 92 00:05:09,900 --> 00:05:12,600 the system works in. Almost the entire system is in 93 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:17,900 Tara USD is in regular Terror with some of it in Tara want for 94 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,800 the Korean market and like what about that Mongolian one. 95 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,100 Sure, the sure there may be some of that in it too, but like the 96 00:05:25,100 --> 00:05:29,200 Tara sdt was almost never used and the other reason Don't like 97 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:34,200 to talk about Tara s DT is because early on they minted a 98 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:38,000 ton of them like pre minted that like made a bunch of stable 99 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,700 coins out of nothing and then use this to feed into the 100 00:05:40,700 --> 00:05:43,600 protocol to help provide liquidity for every other stable 101 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,900 coin. And so they had effectively pre 102 00:05:46,900 --> 00:05:49,900 mind a bunch of a stable coin. And we're using it to create a 103 00:05:49,900 --> 00:05:53,000 bunch of other stable coins. And then eventually people in 104 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:54,800 The Forum started complaining about this. 105 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,600 So in the Columbus five upgrade they finally burned all those 106 00:05:58,900 --> 00:06:02,300 But yeah, for a long time, they had this Tara Str which was the 107 00:06:02,300 --> 00:06:05,300 flagship currency for this system, which is now basically 108 00:06:05,300 --> 00:06:08,200 never used that. They minted a bunch out of thin 109 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,700 air and used to provide liquidity for the rest of their 110 00:06:10,700 --> 00:06:12,900 Pairs. And so even when you read the 111 00:06:12,907 --> 00:06:15,600 documentation and you go through the website and you try to 112 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,100 understand how the system works, there's no guarantee that those 113 00:06:19,100 --> 00:06:23,700 are accurate reflections of the current reality help, help me. 114 00:06:23,700 --> 00:06:27,000 Help II know this. Seems so basic and I'm not well 115 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:32,500 enough informed on Terra. Luna and all of this stuff, but 116 00:06:32,900 --> 00:06:35,000 why do so many people believe in? 117 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,700 Like why do so many people think this is innovative and 118 00:06:38,700 --> 00:06:42,700 interesting and helping and benefiting the cryptocurrency 119 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,100 industry? I think there's a few reasons 120 00:06:45,100 --> 00:06:47,200 for that first, let's start with anchor. 121 00:06:47,300 --> 00:06:49,900 The Lending Market, I already mentioned with a guaranteed, 122 00:06:49,900 --> 00:06:52,600 twenty percent. Yield on a stable coin, you can 123 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,000 convert any of your other stable coins to tear up pretty easily, 124 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,600 and then lend it out and get this 20 percent yield. 125 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:00,500 Being subsidized by this other group. 126 00:07:00,500 --> 00:07:03,700 So even if you don't believe in the long term longevity of this 127 00:07:03,700 --> 00:07:06,800 system or that this can go on forever, whatever other things 128 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,000 terraform Labs is telling you, if you're a Trader, something it 129 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,500 still might make sense to use it for now. 130 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,300 So you can basically take the money out of terraform Labs 131 00:07:15,300 --> 00:07:17,900 pocket and put it into your own because they're subsidizing it, 132 00:07:17,900 --> 00:07:19,300 right? Besides that. 133 00:07:19,300 --> 00:07:22,500 If you go back to the original, Ico of Luna, the initial 1 134 00:07:22,500 --> 00:07:26,500 billion of the supply, 30% of that went to the founders and 135 00:07:26,500 --> 00:07:30,900 then 26% went to Your capitalists at rates of either 136 00:07:30,900 --> 00:07:33,200 18 cents or 80 cents going to miss. 137 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,700 Sorry. The price of Luna peaked at over 138 00:07:35,700 --> 00:07:39,400 100, at one point. So VCS who got into this early 139 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:44,000 had like 100 X or 500x return already on their Investments. 140 00:07:44,300 --> 00:07:48,300 And so for them, they've made this massive amount but they 141 00:07:48,300 --> 00:07:52,000 can't exit, 26 percent of the supply at that price without 142 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,000 getting enough. Other people interested in the 143 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,800 system right without increasing the overall liquidity of the 144 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,500 system, besides that, the supplement Subsidized anchor 145 00:07:59,500 --> 00:08:02,300 rate isn't just benefiting people who use it directly but 146 00:08:02,300 --> 00:08:04,700 if you remember like we discussed this a little bit in 147 00:08:04,700 --> 00:08:07,500 our Wonderland. Episode Abracadabra is dejenne 148 00:08:07,500 --> 00:08:11,500 box that was done by like Danny and sifu would go through the 149 00:08:11,500 --> 00:08:14,400 anchor lending Market. 10 times, we hypothecated each time. 150 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,200 So you're using like 10x leverage on this 20 percent 151 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,700 guaranteed yield. So then all the crypto de gens. 152 00:08:19,700 --> 00:08:22,700 See, this super easy way to get this absolutely absurd. 153 00:08:22,700 --> 00:08:25,500 Yield on what's effectively supposed to be a staple coin 154 00:08:25,500 --> 00:08:27,100 that should never change in value. 155 00:08:27,300 --> 00:08:30,000 Now beyond that we get The current phase of how to 156 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:31,700 quantize. Convincing everyone to love him. 157 00:08:31,700 --> 00:08:34,400 And that is, he's literally like buying off communities. 158 00:08:34,799 --> 00:08:36,900 He announced first with Luna Foundation guard that they were 159 00:08:36,900 --> 00:08:39,299 going to purchase ten billion dollars worth of bitcoin. 160 00:08:39,700 --> 00:08:43,200 This fundamentally changes the math around the stability for 161 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,300 Luna and Tara and makes the built-in reflexivity that 162 00:08:46,300 --> 00:08:49,300 supposed to protect the peg materially worse because now 163 00:08:49,300 --> 00:08:51,800 instead of going into Luna, when people go to Arbitrage, they're 164 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,700 likely going into BTC as these firms do open market operations 165 00:08:55,700 --> 00:08:59,800 to try to defend the pack but but It's still worthwhile for 166 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,300 them because now bitcoiners can't criticize Daquan and Tara 167 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:08,100 because he owns or he will own 10 billion Bitcoins and then he 168 00:09:08,100 --> 00:09:10,200 goes on and he's like, you know what, we should do the same 169 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,200 thing with Avalanche, 10 billion dollars worth of bitcoin. 170 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,900 I just want to say that so that people don't say, there's only 171 00:09:16,900 --> 00:09:18,100 21. Yeah. 172 00:09:18,100 --> 00:09:19,900 And about 10 million dollars with Bitcoin. 173 00:09:19,900 --> 00:09:21,900 And now they're doing the same thing with Avalanche, right? 174 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,100 I'm going to Foundation guard announce the next asset, they're 175 00:09:24,100 --> 00:09:27,100 going to require is Avalanche. So now, if you're a red triangle 176 00:09:27,100 --> 00:09:28,600 supporting Avalanche, do you really want to? 177 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,000 Out and criticize do Quantum Tara when they're purchasing and 178 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,400 providing this, like, buying pressure for your token. 179 00:09:34,500 --> 00:09:38,000 And so people love Tara because they're either making money on 180 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,900 it directly using the lending Market making money on it, 181 00:09:40,900 --> 00:09:44,200 indirectly by using other defy products, like, Abracadabra box 182 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,400 at depend on that subsidized yield or because Daquan is going 183 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,700 out and trying to, like buy off their communities. 184 00:09:50,100 --> 00:09:53,500 I think what I'm so frustrated about again, if it's description 185 00:09:53,500 --> 00:09:56,600 is entirely accurate, which obviously you're my co-host and 186 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:02,500 I trust you and I believe you. I think I'm getting frustrated 187 00:10:02,500 --> 00:10:06,700 because there is nothing Innovative about everyone going, 188 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,700 I'll be able to get out of the Ponzi before the next guy that's 189 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,600 the oldest scam in finance. It's the oldest scam in finance. 190 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,800 It's so boring and it's not just boring. 191 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,600 It's infuriating because I understand that people will 192 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:23,600 never learn that lesson. I get it. 193 00:10:23,700 --> 00:10:26,400 We're it's like a human psychological trait to be like 194 00:10:26,700 --> 00:10:29,100 I'm smarter than everybody else. Get it. 195 00:10:29,100 --> 00:10:32,100 I'm not everybody's guilty of that at some point. 196 00:10:32,100 --> 00:10:35,500 That's fine. But I still don't understand why 197 00:10:35,500 --> 00:10:38,400 there's so much. This is such a Novation. 198 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,700 Do Quan is such a genius. Everybody pay attention to this 199 00:10:41,700 --> 00:10:43,900 and I'm like, I still don't get it. 200 00:10:43,900 --> 00:10:46,700 I still don't understand why, why should I be paying attention 201 00:10:46,700 --> 00:10:50,500 to this because of 20% yields? Because it's now I guess it's 202 00:10:50,700 --> 00:10:54,600 how big how many billions of dollars 18 billion? 203 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,500 I think 18 Bill. Okay yeah just about 18 billion. 204 00:10:58,700 --> 00:11:01,000 Which also also pausing for a moment. 205 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,500 That's the other crazy thing. They're buying 10 billion 206 00:11:03,500 --> 00:11:06,400 dollars worth of bitcoin to collateralize, effectively 18 207 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,100 billion in this floating stable coin, that is supposed to be 208 00:11:09,100 --> 00:11:11,600 entirely collateralized by their governance token. 209 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,700 There's so much money floating around here, like numbers that 210 00:11:14,700 --> 00:11:17,200 like barely make sense. When you think about them and 211 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:24,800 it's That's a lot of money. Ten billion dollars that's half 212 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,500 the fucking market cap of the stable coin so he's already been 213 00:11:28,500 --> 00:11:30,700 subpoenaed by the SEC. Yes, though. 214 00:11:30,700 --> 00:11:34,400 He claims it doesn't count which we talked about a little bit in 215 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,000 our episode with John Reed Stark. 216 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:36,700 Yeah. Right. 217 00:11:36,700 --> 00:11:39,500 He can claim whatever he wants. That's fine, but they have 218 00:11:39,500 --> 00:11:41,000 subpoenaed him, right? Yes. 219 00:11:41,300 --> 00:11:43,400 Okay. And their claims are what I 220 00:11:43,408 --> 00:11:47,200 think it's mostly related to the mere protocol which was built on 221 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:51,700 top of the Sheen, and was meant to provide a way to trade 222 00:11:51,700 --> 00:11:54,100 synthetic assets. And so, they were creating a 223 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,300 synthetic derivatives of us Securities and trading them 224 00:11:57,300 --> 00:12:00,300 through their market. So you could buy like a token 225 00:12:00,300 --> 00:12:03,500 Peg to Tesla, and the SEC says that still happening? 226 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,100 Not 100% sure, I'd have to double-check that but, yeah, the 227 00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:08,400 SEC said, yeah, we don't we don't like that. 228 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,600 That goes against our rules because clearly it does. 229 00:12:11,700 --> 00:12:15,000 I understand neither of us are lawyers and I'll preface that 230 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,700 before I asked this question at all, but I guess I'm just 231 00:12:17,700 --> 00:12:19,600 wondering. Is there anything even a Legal 232 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,400 about what's going on with Luna and Tara. 233 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:25,400 Or is this just kind of like an unworkable business model and 234 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,800 when it fails well, hate to say, I told you. 235 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:29,700 So, kind of situation. I mean, I don't know. 236 00:12:30,100 --> 00:12:31,500 That's always the question, right? 237 00:12:31,500 --> 00:12:34,800 And this is, this is really one of my challenges with this 238 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:38,200 protocol. So they did in Ico in February 239 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,400 of 2019, right? That is well, after the dowel 240 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,800 report, that is, after several, of Jay, Clayton speeches, which 241 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,700 he said, every Ico I've seen is a security sale if they sold any 242 00:12:48,700 --> 00:12:50,900 tokens, That I see. Oh I think there's a good 243 00:12:50,900 --> 00:12:52,900 chance. They sold unregistered 244 00:12:52,900 --> 00:12:55,800 Securities to us, persons in that would be illegal. 245 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,500 The SEC is still trying to determine if what they did with 246 00:12:59,500 --> 00:13:03,200 mere is legal or not. I think there is plenty of 247 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,100 reason to be skeptical that it was. 248 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,400 And then it gets, kind of, kind of tricky, because what's the 249 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:13,500 difference between a coin trying to become the new Global unit of 250 00:13:13,500 --> 00:13:17,000 account, by creating Faith, using an unsustainable strategy 251 00:13:17,300 --> 00:13:20,500 and a Ponzi scheme? The Science is pretty narrow. 252 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,600 Often will be determined on how it plays out, right? 253 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,800 Like if Tara was somehow successful in convincing enough 254 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:29,800 people that this is what they should be using. 255 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,200 And there was enough exoticness demand in liquidity, maybe they 256 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,300 could turn off some of the unsustainable things and it 257 00:13:35,300 --> 00:13:39,100 would continue to work. I have my skepticism about 258 00:13:39,100 --> 00:13:41,200 pegged Assets in general, we talked about that a little bit 259 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:46,100 when Francis Coppola was on, but it's not clearly fraud, it's not 260 00:13:46,100 --> 00:13:51,600 clearly illegal, it's Be clearly ill-conceived right. 261 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,100 I think that's what I'm trying to express as my frustration. 262 00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:57,700 Is that this is so obviously similar to pass schemes. 263 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,100 I guess what I'm perceiving is that it's called an algorithmic 264 00:14:02,100 --> 00:14:05,900 stable coin and that's like a pretty hot hip happening idea, 265 00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:08,800 right now. I don't get that either. 266 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:14,000 I don't understand the obsession with like algorithmically trying 267 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,500 to stabilize an asset class. Like I don't I don't get it. 268 00:14:17,500 --> 00:14:21,200 So that's that's because You're trying to think through it as a 269 00:14:21,208 --> 00:14:25,100 way to like legitimately create a stable unit of account. 270 00:14:25,100 --> 00:14:27,500 That's not really why algorithmic stable coins exist, 271 00:14:27,500 --> 00:14:29,000 right? Like there's a reason they pop 272 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,000 up every time there's a big defy search. 273 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,900 And because they depend on this Alchemy of essentially, creating 274 00:14:34,900 --> 00:14:38,700 something from nothing, it is very easy to play games with 275 00:14:38,700 --> 00:14:41,200 them, right? Set up a lending game setup, a 276 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,500 whatever game that could run for a long enough. 277 00:14:43,700 --> 00:14:45,600 That a lot of people make money from it. 278 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,800 And it doesn't matter if it eventually fails because we told 279 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,600 everyone, It was an experiment. We weren't sure this was going 280 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,000 to work. We're out here, trying new 281 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:54,800 things. We're Builders. 282 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:56,300 Don't you? Stand on the sidelines and 283 00:14:56,300 --> 00:14:59,100 criticize, get out there and help build. 284 00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:02,300 That's another one that came up. Recently is Andre wrote, what 285 00:15:02,300 --> 00:15:05,500 was it a sub stack post or sub? Stacker medium. 286 00:15:05,500 --> 00:15:08,000 It was a Blog is blogging. Pretty short one. 287 00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:12,300 Just kind of saying like we're redoing Finance which is 288 00:15:12,300 --> 00:15:17,000 something you have set up very often and his his critique seem 289 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,800 to be that they're just repeating all the same mistakes 290 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,400 of the past and doing it very quickly, like we've said, it's 291 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,100 kind of like speed running the past thousand years of Finance, 292 00:15:26,700 --> 00:15:28,800 but people got pretty upset about it. 293 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:30,400 I guess, or at least some people did. 294 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,900 Some people were like, very into it but some people were upset 295 00:15:33,900 --> 00:15:36,900 about it because they were like, oh, mr. 296 00:15:36,900 --> 00:15:42,000 Test and production, who's like, essentially put out a bunch of 297 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,000 garbage. Although I mean, isn't isn't 298 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,500 yearn doing fine? Why iron? 299 00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:48,600 I don't know what they call it whatever. 300 00:15:49,100 --> 00:15:53,100 I think it's still running other past Andre projects are no 301 00:15:53,100 --> 00:15:56,300 longer running. And I think that's I read the 302 00:15:56,308 --> 00:16:00,100 piece in question and I think that Andre has some really good 303 00:16:00,100 --> 00:16:02,700 points. He talks at one point about how 304 00:16:02,700 --> 00:16:06,300 the crypto culture. Essentially, the degeneracy, the 305 00:16:06,300 --> 00:16:10,800 taping into these things. The number go up, type Community 306 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,500 around, it has kind of smothered the crypto ethos of like, 307 00:16:14,500 --> 00:16:17,500 censorship, resistance mutability resiliency and trying 308 00:16:17,500 --> 00:16:21,200 to build these like power Full anti-state systems and I think 309 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,100 that he's right. Like obviously, though, I don't 310 00:16:24,100 --> 00:16:25,400 like, that's not even. That's not a. 311 00:16:25,408 --> 00:16:27,800 Yeah, that's, I guess. I'm like, that's not that clever 312 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,500 of an aside. Like, yeah. 313 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,600 All of us, know, all of us. Know that already. 314 00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:34,800 It's fucking obvious. It's been obvious since 2018. 315 00:16:35,300 --> 00:16:38,000 I think the issue is, he's the worst messenger for that 316 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,100 message, right? Because the entire time you're 317 00:16:40,100 --> 00:16:41,400 reading it, you're just like, God. 318 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,800 You're such a fucking hypocrite. Oh yeah, we need regulated 319 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:46,800 entities, mr. Phantom wallet. 320 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,300 Okay. Yeah sure we hear Yeah, and it's 321 00:16:50,300 --> 00:16:53,100 like, it's not that he's wrong and I don't mean necessarily 322 00:16:53,100 --> 00:16:55,700 think a lot of the people criticizing him her necessarily 323 00:16:55,700 --> 00:17:02,200 saying he's wrong it's he's made a lot of money from this like, 324 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,200 89 figure type money and now he's like, we need Regulators to 325 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:10,300 protect the investors. My dude, you're the one with the 326 00:17:10,300 --> 00:17:15,099 money from all the investors and so it's really disingenuous that 327 00:17:15,099 --> 00:17:16,700 way. It was kind of my feeling 328 00:17:16,700 --> 00:17:19,400 reading it. I'm kind of stupefied by All of 329 00:17:19,408 --> 00:17:22,800 this, like I'm kind of like, I don't really know how to react 330 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,599 to any of this where I don't, I don't see the utility in Tara 331 00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:30,200 even though that's like what it talks about on when you go to 332 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,900 the website, I mean they talk about how easy and simple this 333 00:17:33,900 --> 00:17:35,800 is going to be and how great it's going to be for everyone, 334 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,500 to be able to like move in and out of every currency in the 335 00:17:38,500 --> 00:17:42,300 world with such ease because that's like really hard to do 336 00:17:42,300 --> 00:17:45,700 without tara not that I've ever traveled outside of America and 337 00:17:45,700 --> 00:17:48,200 had to exchange. You know what honestly I'll tell 338 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,100 you something. One of the Brokerages that I've 339 00:17:50,100 --> 00:17:53,000 used. I had a savings account with 340 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:58,600 them as well and all ATM fees were paid for, and if I took 341 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,700 money out, from an international ATM, whatever international fees 342 00:18:01,700 --> 00:18:06,100 were also totally paid for. So I guess I don't get it. 343 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,800 I guess at the end of the day I just don't get it. 344 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,100 It's genuinely not that hard to move money around. 345 00:18:14,300 --> 00:18:16,800 We don't need 200 different. Stable coins. 346 00:18:17,100 --> 00:18:19,000 We certainly don't need 200 different algorithmic. 347 00:18:19,100 --> 00:18:21,900 Stable coins and we certainly don't need the algorithmic. 348 00:18:21,900 --> 00:18:25,800 Stable coins to like, grow bigger than, like, 18 billion 349 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:29,800 dollars is so much money, man. And like the idea that it's 350 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,500 essentially catching up to tether, which is like tethers, 351 00:18:32,500 --> 00:18:35,400 already bad. Why are we making things? 352 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,800 Even murkier, more complex and worse, which I didn't even think 353 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,600 was possible. Like tether is as opaque as it 354 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,500 gets about their reserves, so you thought? 355 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:51,300 Yeah, Never Say, Never man, so do Quan appears in 2019 after 356 00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:55,900 going to Stanford forms terraform Labs is injected with 357 00:18:55,900 --> 00:18:58,000 like billions of dollars from investors. 358 00:18:58,500 --> 00:19:00,600 I don't, I don't get it. I want to get it. 359 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:02,600 I want to understand it. I want to think that there's 360 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,500 something here. I don't want to be this cynical 361 00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:08,600 asshole, who's saying, like, dude, this seems like a scam 362 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,100 again. But why does it feel that way? 363 00:19:12,100 --> 00:19:16,200 Because there's a guaranteed 20% interest rate because there's a 364 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,500 guaranteed 20% interest rate because you here Are people 365 00:19:19,500 --> 00:19:22,000 telling you that they can guarantee a twenty percent 366 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,200 interest rate? That's why it feels like a scam. 367 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,100 Yeah. Because if I told you tomorrow 368 00:19:26,100 --> 00:19:29,100 invest today and I can guarantee you a 20% return, you would go. 369 00:19:29,100 --> 00:19:30,800 Fuck off. I'm not signing up for your 370 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,300 Ponzi scheme because that's, that's the pitch of a fucking 371 00:19:34,300 --> 00:19:37,100 Ponzi scheme. Bernie Madoff did what? 372 00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:41,600 Like, 12 percent per annum over the years and and and declines 373 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,700 guaranteeing 20%, we're supposed to go off the future of 374 00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:47,100 decentralized Finance, delicious. 375 00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:50,600 If this isn't even the worst, this isn't that Seen 150% 376 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,800 guarantees, we've seen crazy and that we've got Justin creating 377 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,000 his own algorithmic stable coin promising, to back it with 10 378 00:19:58,000 --> 00:19:59,800 billion dollars worth of crypto assets. 379 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,100 He's gonna go and buy and guaranteeing, a 30 percent 380 00:20:03,100 --> 00:20:06,600 interest rate you decide. Let's go 50% above 20 and see 381 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,700 what we can do. In his logic is we see so many 382 00:20:09,700 --> 00:20:12,400 people using tether on Tron that we figured. 383 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:16,200 They need their own stable coin. Collateralized by Tron, you know 384 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,700 what, I am really happy for Justin about I am Glad he is 385 00:20:19,700 --> 00:20:24,100 getting use out of that Ambassador appointment because 386 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,400 without that shit, he would go. Absolutely to prison. 387 00:20:27,500 --> 00:20:31,400 So Bravo Justin, what is it? His Excellency. 388 00:20:31,700 --> 00:20:33,900 I'm so glad that you were making proper. 389 00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:38,300 Use of that ambassadorship, you know, enjoy your little prison 390 00:20:38,300 --> 00:20:41,100 in Switzerland, where you can't leave now through another worst 391 00:20:41,100 --> 00:20:42,200 part. Sure. 392 00:20:42,500 --> 00:20:45,400 It's broken at a more basic level than we've even discussed 393 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:46,800 here, right? Like we're discussing how the 394 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,700 economics, make no sense but like Actual protocol design for 395 00:20:50,700 --> 00:20:54,900 the cryptocurrency makes no sense and Do Kwan and 396 00:20:54,900 --> 00:20:58,700 terraformed Labs can effectively kick other nodes out of 397 00:20:58,700 --> 00:21:01,600 consensus for like the Block Chain itself. 398 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:06,100 So, in order to be a validator on Tara like on the cosmos chain 399 00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:07,100 that's actually running all this. 400 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,700 You are expected to participate in the Oracle voting process. 401 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,900 To help make this easy terraform Labs has provided their own 402 00:21:13,900 --> 00:21:17,000 Oracle price, feeder that you can configure in your validator, 403 00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:18,900 that will automatically post the numbers. 404 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,000 Sarah formlabs gives you to the chain and vote on them for you 405 00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:24,800 making the entire process, vastly more simple. 406 00:21:25,100 --> 00:21:28,300 So the vast majority of oracle's have adopted. 407 00:21:28,300 --> 00:21:32,400 This what this effectively means is that no one else can run a 408 00:21:32,408 --> 00:21:36,100 different price feeder now, because if they vote out of band 409 00:21:36,100 --> 00:21:39,200 like different from what Tara formlabs Oracle price, feeder is 410 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,200 suggesting they will get kicked out of consensus even if their 411 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,600 number is right and terraformed Labs number is wrong and this 412 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,800 exact thing has already resulted In erroneous, liquidations on 413 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,700 anchor, The Lending platform and wait, I'm not done yet. 414 00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:56,900 Almost all of those liquidations were bought up by terraform 415 00:21:56,900 --> 00:22:00,200 Labs, who was front, running it because they didn't need to wait 416 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,000 for the Oracle price to hit the chain because it's coming from 417 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,400 their own feed. So they knew to immediately 418 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,600 start bidding as these were liquidated before the values 419 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,200 were at you posted on chain, is when there was this massive 420 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,300 multimillion-dollar liquidation. Terraform Labs, is the one 421 00:22:14,300 --> 00:22:17,500 buying up all those collateral from the people they wrongly 422 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,600 liquidated. It's Fucking Arthur. 423 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,300 Hays, running a prop desk. Right, so it's centralized its 424 00:22:23,300 --> 00:22:27,700 trading against its own users. Who knows what the Privacy 425 00:22:27,700 --> 00:22:33,300 Dynamics are of any of this and The Innovation is 20% per annum 426 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,000 interest for give me more about things they were doing. 427 00:22:36,100 --> 00:22:39,100 Sorry, go on look, a year ago, they announced project Dawn in 428 00:22:39,100 --> 00:22:42,000 which they were going to start unlocking about 300 million 429 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,500 dollars worth of Luna every single month and promised a 430 00:22:45,500 --> 00:22:48,500 monthly transparency report on each of these unlocks. 431 00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:50,800 That would describe But they were using the funds for guess 432 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:52,800 what? There was Zero of those? 433 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,300 Yeah it's amazing. You knew there wouldn't be 434 00:22:55,308 --> 00:22:57,500 transparency reports. It's like you've done this 435 00:22:57,500 --> 00:23:01,100 before. This is one of these times where 436 00:23:01,100 --> 00:23:04,800 I genuinely feel completely deflated about the industry. 437 00:23:05,100 --> 00:23:07,800 There's things that bother me that excite me, right? 438 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:09,200 Like I think tether did that for me. 439 00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:11,800 Whereas like actually exciting and interesting, while I was 440 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,100 bothered by it, while it pissed me off, I think what's going on 441 00:23:15,100 --> 00:23:18,500 in El Salvador is equal parts, fascinating and horrifying. 442 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,300 I think the Ukraine and Russian response in regard to the 443 00:23:23,300 --> 00:23:25,500 cryptocurrency industry. Totally interesting. 444 00:23:25,500 --> 00:23:28,700 Like there's there's a lot to unravel and unfold and talk 445 00:23:28,700 --> 00:23:32,000 about there. When this kind of thing happens, 446 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,100 I feel bad because I understand that it's going to sound like a 447 00:23:35,100 --> 00:23:37,800 broken record, but I just feel so bad. 448 00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:42,000 I feel like there's nothing anyone can do for this industry. 449 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,500 If this is the kind of people and projects that everyone wants 450 00:23:45,500 --> 00:23:47,900 to support. I mean like I don't think anyone 451 00:23:47,900 --> 00:23:51,400 is explained how the fuck the North, Koreans stole six hundred 452 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,300 million dollars worth of axi infinity bullshit. 453 00:23:54,300 --> 00:23:56,400 You know, they're etherium like the right. 454 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,500 I mean they kind of did because it was all controlled by one. 455 00:23:59,700 --> 00:24:01,200 Tootie, right? And so they had to do is 456 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,200 compromise one entity and steal the key there. 457 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,800 You fucking go. This is what I'm saying. 458 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,400 Dude, this is what I'm trying to say is that like the basic 459 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,200 inherent issues that were trying to be solved for, at the 460 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:16,400 beginning of cryptocurrency through to, like 2016 2017, that 461 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,500 people like seem to care about was like okay it shouldn't be 462 00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:21,400 centralized. We should be concerned about 463 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,100 privacy, there's going to be volatility, we're going to need 464 00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:26,700 to speculate. They like it was like some level 465 00:24:26,700 --> 00:24:31,300 of admittance and suggestions. As to what was positive about 466 00:24:31,300 --> 00:24:33,900 this space. And when I see stuff like this, 467 00:24:33,900 --> 00:24:37,800 get popular, I feel like, oh, wow, most people involved in 468 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,600 this space. Don't actually give a fuck about 469 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,600 any of the interesting stuff like this table coin isn't 470 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,400 interesting, it's not interesting. 471 00:24:45,500 --> 00:24:48,400 And this story isn't interesting to me, you're just telling me a 472 00:24:48,408 --> 00:24:51,000 bunch of bad shit that some asshole did that is going to 473 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,000 cause people a lot of money one day and that maybe he'll never 474 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,700 go to prison for and you know, it was an experiment. 475 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,000 Okay. I guess this just proves how 476 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,100 dumb people Our or that we're repetitive in our habits or that 477 00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:05,400 psychologically. We are just prone to get 478 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,100 scammed, I don't know man. But it doesn't fill me with any 479 00:25:09,100 --> 00:25:13,200 sort of Hope or interest or like drive to fix things. 480 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,700 It has the utterly opposite effect. 481 00:25:15,700 --> 00:25:19,700 Crypto culture has strangled crypto ethos sound Ray said, 482 00:25:19,700 --> 00:25:21,100 yeah. But he talked about it like it 483 00:25:21,100 --> 00:25:22,600 was some optimistic Thing by the end. 484 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,900 He was saying like, I'm look, I'm still looking forward to 485 00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:26,500 what this industry brings and blah blah blah. 486 00:25:26,500 --> 00:25:29,500 And I'm like, when I hear these stories, if anything it makes me 487 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,000 Ego like, man. Maybe this is the wrong industry 488 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:33,900 for me. I'm like I'll stick around. 489 00:25:33,900 --> 00:25:35,900 There's enough interesting stories for sure. 490 00:25:36,300 --> 00:25:40,100 But like, when I hear these stories, I am far less inclined. 491 00:25:40,100 --> 00:25:41,900 Like, there's no way I'm going to have her talk about Terra 492 00:25:41,900 --> 00:25:43,000 again. There's no way. 493 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,100 I just don't care, I just do not care. 494 00:25:45,100 --> 00:25:48,300 Yeah, it was fascinating to me because I write about these 495 00:25:48,300 --> 00:25:50,200 stable, Queen protocols, pretty often, right? 496 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,700 But like, as I'm reading it, I'm like, this is just bit you as 497 00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:57,300 D-Day and Larimer tried this years ago and that's fucking day 498 00:25:57,300 --> 00:26:01,200 in their armor. Like Why are we reach reading 499 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,900 the ground? That 10 Lambert already did. 500 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,400 There has to be more exciting things to try. 501 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,100 Apparently not. Yeah. 502 00:26:08,300 --> 00:26:10,500 And apparently not, that's my point. 503 00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:12,600 That's the point that I'm making, I think right now is 504 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,700 that it like this is who people are pointing to. 505 00:26:15,700 --> 00:26:18,400 This is the project that people are pointing to and saying like 506 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,000 this is changing everything. We're going to publish this and 507 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,400 the lunatics the terror Community are bad, they're 508 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,500 really fucking bad on Twitter. They are there every community. 509 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,400 E is xrp, is fucking atrocious and poisonous, you know, owner, 510 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,500 but they're like the old xrp army before they safe Moon. 511 00:26:37,500 --> 00:26:41,200 People were fucking horrifying. Everybody who has their 512 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,400 Community is strictly bags. That's when we were talking to 513 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,400 Colin. I'm just like dude building a 514 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,000 community around like we need the number of this thing to go 515 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:50,600 up. It doesn't breed a healthy 516 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,800 community at all. At all, it just makes a bunch of 517 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,100 assholes who spent a bunch of Time, online attacking, anybody 518 00:26:57,100 --> 00:26:59,500 who's being critical or like genuinely. 519 00:26:59,700 --> 00:27:01,200 Trying to look into something for people. 520 00:27:01,300 --> 00:27:03,700 And again where's the Innovation? 521 00:27:03,700 --> 00:27:05,800 Where is the substance to any of this? 522 00:27:06,100 --> 00:27:08,100 I was hoping that when we talked about this, there would be some 523 00:27:08,100 --> 00:27:10,700 fucking Saving Grace something that you could point to. 524 00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:12,700 That would be like, well actually here's the interesting 525 00:27:12,700 --> 00:27:15,100 part of Tara, her actually. Here's the interesting part of 526 00:27:15,100 --> 00:27:17,300 Luna or they're doing this, really interesting. 527 00:27:17,300 --> 00:27:20,300 Algorithmic, I'd like whatever. But no you're just like, well, 528 00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:23,000 they're hoping to get too big to fail and, you know, probably not 529 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,100 going to happen, but I guess it might maybe who knows. 530 00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:28,300 And I'm like this story sucks. The story fucking sucks. 531 00:27:28,300 --> 00:27:31,600 Yeah, the best case. For them, is that they become 532 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,300 the global like way to exchange value. 533 00:27:35,300 --> 00:27:37,500 And you, and I end up in an institution, do the 534 00:27:37,500 --> 00:27:40,200 ramifications of that? Yeah, I get it. 535 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,700 They all want to be the fucking world's Reserve currency. 536 00:27:42,900 --> 00:27:44,700 There's still nothing interesting about that. 537 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,600 Fuck, man, this is what I'm saying. 538 00:27:46,900 --> 00:27:50,800 Decentralization is interesting, privacy rights when it comes to 539 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:52,500 money. That interests me. 540 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,900 That stuff is actually fucking interesting. 541 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,200 This stuff is not fucking interesting, dude. 542 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,800 It is not fuck well in this It gets that kind of the part that 543 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,900 really bothers me about Tara is how often that their marketing 544 00:28:03,900 --> 00:28:06,300 is where the true decentralized able coin. 545 00:28:06,300 --> 00:28:09,600 Don't look at me, what because it's got USD, see backing don't 546 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,500 look at whatever because of these somewhat probable, like 547 00:28:12,500 --> 00:28:14,900 points of articulation, and points of centralization. 548 00:28:15,100 --> 00:28:18,200 And then they take 56 percent of their original Supply and 549 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,700 distributed between themselves and Venture capitalists. 550 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,700 They have a way to kick nodes, out of consensus. 551 00:28:23,900 --> 00:28:27,700 They are subsidizing the entire demand for this token out of 552 00:28:27,700 --> 00:28:31,700 their Ico funds. This, this is the gold standard 553 00:28:31,700 --> 00:28:34,900 for decentralized stable coin. Then fucking hand it in. 554 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:36,600 Stop trying to make fucking stable coins. 555 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,500 Then you've lost, if this is the best you can do you failed? 556 00:28:39,700 --> 00:28:41,400 You failed. That's the last point. 557 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,600 I want to make because I there do seem to be the all these 558 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,700 people like who were in to do Quan or who think cesta was a 559 00:28:47,700 --> 00:28:50,000 genius or think Seafood is great. 560 00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:53,000 I remember reaching out to someone well-known in the space 561 00:28:53,100 --> 00:28:57,200 I'm not going to name names and saying I don't get why anyone 562 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:02,400 likes Max Keiser or Michaels? Dollar or whatever. 563 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,600 Max Keiser, Michael sailor. Somebody else might have been 564 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,500 Tok Wan and might have been someone else. 565 00:29:07,500 --> 00:29:11,500 And I just said, like, I don't get why the space takes any of 566 00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:15,200 these people seriously in any sense and their response to me 567 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,500 was they don't dude. Nobody of substance or anyone 568 00:29:19,500 --> 00:29:23,000 who actually cares about the cryptocurrency industry takes 569 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,100 those two lunatics. I mean in the actual word takes 570 00:29:26,100 --> 00:29:28,800 them seriously. So I don't know what it is. 571 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,000 I don't know if there's a disconnect and like some retail, 572 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:36,900 people just are super into some of this stuff or if there's too 573 00:29:36,900 --> 00:29:42,700 much VC, capital and hedge funds and That's again, just the stuff 574 00:29:42,700 --> 00:29:46,300 that makes me feel so sick about this industry because there's 575 00:29:46,300 --> 00:29:47,900 nothing you and I can do about it. 576 00:29:47,900 --> 00:29:50,800 Truly there's nothing we could say, critically about Tara 577 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,400 that's going to matter because this is, this is there, this is 578 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,200 their game plan, right? And like, I know that this did 579 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,800 we're not going to change anyone's mind with this episode. 580 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,000 So I like, I just, I don't know. I don't know what. 581 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,900 I don't know how to respond to that as a Critic. 582 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,700 I guess at the end of all this, I think we got kind of close to 583 00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:08,900 talking about this a little bit when Gerard was on the 584 00:30:08,900 --> 00:30:12,600 cryptocurrency industry. Is almost like several different 585 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,800 layers of Industry each moving in somewhat different directions 586 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,600 in pulled by different forces, right? 587 00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:21,000 Like there's so much turnover in the cryptocurrency industry that 588 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,400 at any time, like the bulk of Market participants is people 589 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,100 who have joined in like the last two years but then like the bulk 590 00:30:28,100 --> 00:30:32,200 of Market dollars are dictated by these massive Market making 591 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,300 and Venture Capital funds that we talked about back in our 592 00:30:34,300 --> 00:30:38,600 Cumberland episode and then like the bulk of development work and 593 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,200 like research and Thought that goes into these cryptocurrency 594 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,400 systems, is by people who have been around for years, right? 595 00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:47,900 And so, like, you'll talk with Bitcoin developers and they 596 00:30:47,900 --> 00:30:50,500 still care about a lot of the things Bitcoin is supposed to 597 00:30:50,500 --> 00:30:53,800 care about, right? But they're a very tiny 598 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,800 percentage of both the market in terms of people and the market. 599 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,600 In terms of dollars, The Venture capitalists went things that 600 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,600 they can grow fast and get liquidity from and Retail once 601 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:04,700 projects that they can make a quick Buck on. 602 00:31:04,900 --> 00:31:07,800 And so the minority of people who are interested in 603 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,400 cryptocurrency purely to solve the Aging questions around 604 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,100 decentralisation censorship resistance privacy and 605 00:31:14,100 --> 00:31:18,000 resiliency are not that important because they don't 606 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,500 command the massive money that can move things. 607 00:31:20,500 --> 00:31:23,100 And they don't command the massive armies of people that 608 00:31:23,100 --> 00:31:27,000 drive interest in these things. And so they continue to get 609 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:28,900 pressed further and further to the sidelines. 610 00:31:29,500 --> 00:31:32,000 Yeah, yeah. I think that's a good point to 611 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,600 end on. We're really bad point, 612 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,000 depending on how you look at it either way.