1 00:00:05,100 --> 00:00:09,300 Welcome back everyone. I am Caspian Sea and I am here 2 00:00:09,300 --> 00:00:11,900 as usual with my partner in crime Bennett Tomlin. 3 00:00:11,900 --> 00:00:14,300 How are you doing today? I'm doing well Cass. 4 00:00:14,300 --> 00:00:16,000 How are you? I'm doing good. 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:20,100 We are joined today by Oliver beige, who is an Industrial 6 00:00:20,100 --> 00:00:25,500 Engineer turned Economist, who got his PhD at Berkeley, to 7 00:00:25,500 --> 00:00:27,700 explore the internet and some of its aspects. 8 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,500 How are you Oliver? I'm very good. 9 00:00:30,500 --> 00:00:35,500 Thanks for having me. So we, I wanted to speak with 10 00:00:35,500 --> 00:00:38,500 you and we had no subject necessarily in mind when I 11 00:00:38,500 --> 00:00:41,400 reached out. So, you suggested we discuss 12 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:46,400 cryptocurrency and, and how it has sort of Lent itself, to, to 13 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,400 tribalism. Can you open that discussion for 14 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,400 me, of course? Yeah, I mean, there's a bit of a 15 00:00:53,408 --> 00:00:56,100 staple topic. I'd like to talk about a lot but 16 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,900 it's basically, I just felt like, my, my background is 17 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,400 Industrial engineering. So like talking about inside the 18 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:06,600 firm, but I moved to United States and 95, when does new 19 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,500 thing was happening the internet and it's not okay. 20 00:01:09,500 --> 00:01:13,000 I wanted to study this and I wanted to study it from from the 21 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:14,900 other side, basically, from the market side. 22 00:01:14,900 --> 00:01:19,300 And so I did a PhD but in economics but also at the 23 00:01:19,300 --> 00:01:22,000 business school. So I'm always like in in between 24 00:01:22,100 --> 00:01:26,700 the two sides, but Mikey interest was really sort of like 25 00:01:26,700 --> 00:01:29,900 in the emerging Network competition, that the internet. 26 00:01:30,100 --> 00:01:34,700 Enabled. And the, in the Orthodox View at 27 00:01:34,700 --> 00:01:38,000 the time was really sort of, if you have positive Network 28 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,300 effects in any kind of networks and back, then we were talking 29 00:01:41,300 --> 00:01:44,800 about like, Telecom networks, much more than and then the 30 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,500 internet, we've military typewriters. 31 00:01:47,500 --> 00:01:51,600 All these, all these famous examples VHS versus beta once. 32 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:56,000 As soon as you have a positive Network effects, you have a 33 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:01,500 monopoly outcome and I come from Um, from like a graph, the you 34 00:02:01,500 --> 00:02:03,200 network. See background, of course, the 35 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:08,400 network typically has a structure and sort of the 36 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:13,000 basically, both the engineering Orthodoxy and the economic 37 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,400 Orthodoxy, just basically assumed the structure of the 38 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,100 network way. And I was like, okay, what's 39 00:02:17,100 --> 00:02:20,300 gonna happen? If I, if I actually look at the 40 00:02:20,300 --> 00:02:24,200 network structure see how the network structure affects 41 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,900 outcomes within a network competition on that Network 42 00:02:28,100 --> 00:02:31,700 Technology adoption? And sort of my point was very 43 00:02:31,700 --> 00:02:35,500 much. This is the Monopoly outcome 44 00:02:35,500 --> 00:02:39,700 which you get like VHS versus beta beta wins or the firmest be 45 00:02:39,700 --> 00:02:41,800 famous. Like QWERTY versus the towards a 46 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,200 keyboard. Cody wins even though it's the 47 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,200 worst the technology standard. It's not really true. 48 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:52,700 You have in most cases you have multiple outcomes you multiple 49 00:02:52,700 --> 00:02:59,300 surviving Technologies and like once and from that point on the 50 00:02:59,300 --> 00:03:03,000 question becomes Comes if you have a network with a structure 51 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,100 that and the network is in some way too big. 52 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,000 How does it break into multiple Parts? 53 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,100 Like where does it does it fall apart? 54 00:03:11,100 --> 00:03:13,800 And it's like, from an economic perspective is the year, like 55 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,500 the outcome of this network falling apart, is that it like 56 00:03:17,500 --> 00:03:21,200 economically efficient. And once you see things from 57 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,200 that angle, you'll store it like seeing so many cases where we 58 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:29,100 have positive Network effects and we still have multiple 59 00:03:29,100 --> 00:03:31,800 outcomes and yeah. It's most obvious ones are like 60 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,300 languages. We've seen over loss whatever a 61 00:03:34,308 --> 00:03:36,800 couple thousand years that the number of languages in the world 62 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,300 has gone down but we will still have five thousand different 63 00:03:40,300 --> 00:03:42,600 languages and then we all do do something much. 64 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:47,300 More reason is very similar is is programming languages, right? 65 00:03:47,300 --> 00:03:51,200 So we all want to like learn the same language because that's 66 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,400 makes much easier. It would be much better if you 67 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:55,800 like every every single piece of software is written the same 68 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,800 language but of course we have a proliferation of program. 69 00:03:59,900 --> 00:04:03,000 Languages. So like more like new languages 70 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,700 being did developed all the time. 71 00:04:05,700 --> 00:04:09,400 So we're not going down to if we're not going down to like the 72 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,500 one final programming language on the wall. 73 00:04:11,500 --> 00:04:14,500 So there's you have like the two effects going in in both 74 00:04:14,500 --> 00:04:19,300 directions in like sort of concentrating into log one but 75 00:04:19,300 --> 00:04:23,800 also you have going in multiple different directions. 76 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,400 Like basically give the two things you have normally within 77 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,600 a group you have gold conflict. You Different things people and 78 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,400 you basically have the network structure, we have interactions 79 00:04:34,700 --> 00:04:38,600 that are more intense between people between peers and you 80 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,200 have interactions that are less intense or no interaction, all 81 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,300 and you also have like a positive and a negative 82 00:04:43,300 --> 00:04:48,800 interactions. And so like, basically starting 83 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,700 to become known within the crypto Wars very much. 84 00:04:53,700 --> 00:04:58,000 I think it's sort of like contradicted vitalik when he is 85 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,700 basically posting on network effects are Like create 86 00:05:00,700 --> 00:05:02,700 monopolies Out friends but no, it's not the case. 87 00:05:03,300 --> 00:05:07,900 And, of course, that's a message that resonates with the etherium 88 00:05:07,900 --> 00:05:11,500 community because sort of they're defending themselves 89 00:05:11,500 --> 00:05:16,800 against the like claims of Bitcoin maximalist that Bitcoin 90 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,100 will be the one that ultimately winning out. 91 00:05:20,100 --> 00:05:24,500 It's an interesting proposition, one of the examples you used was 92 00:05:24,700 --> 00:05:27,200 language and I think that's a really interesting and good 93 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,800 example because while like, Only know, I only know English and I 94 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:33,900 can understand a tiny bit of Spanish. 95 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,400 Meanwhile, I guess the most. I don't know if this is still 96 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,100 true or not, the most spoken language in the world at least 97 00:05:40,100 --> 00:05:41,900 when I was a kid was Mandarin actually. 98 00:05:42,100 --> 00:05:45,600 But the problem with mandarin was that one. 99 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:51,200 It is almost exclusively spoken on the Chinese Mainland, which 100 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,300 is a very singular entity. It's not like English, which is 101 00:05:54,308 --> 00:05:56,100 spoken throughout the entire world. 102 00:05:56,300 --> 00:05:59,100 And then also the second issue with that is that they actually 103 00:05:59,100 --> 00:06:02,800 rely on the English language to type in their language, like 104 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,200 they pinion is how they're typing things and so therefore 105 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:10,500 they have to learn English to even be able to communicate in 106 00:06:10,500 --> 00:06:16,200 Mandarin these days. And I that that feels like the 107 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,100 Monopoly for English for the English language. 108 00:06:19,500 --> 00:06:22,800 Growing significantly stronger even in this short amount of 109 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,300 time, do you think that's incorrect or do you think that's 110 00:06:25,300 --> 00:06:27,900 true? Do you like, do you expect that? 111 00:06:27,900 --> 00:06:31,200 The English will become the the Like it cut like a language in 112 00:06:31,207 --> 00:06:35,200 the world within I don't know like foreseeable time couple 113 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,000 hundred years is our we have like intense. 114 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,800 I mean we have intense Global Financial interaction will see 115 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,000 we see all the problems with Global Supply chains. 116 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:46,300 Now we have Global sourcing in any many, many Industries. 117 00:06:46,300 --> 00:06:48,100 But like is it, are we expecting that? 118 00:06:48,100 --> 00:06:51,000 We're going to go down to a single language because it's 119 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,400 like the most economically efficient thing. 120 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:58,300 Or are we going to go down to maybe a couple hundred 121 00:06:58,300 --> 00:07:01,200 languages? What do you think would be the 122 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,700 outcome? So what I expect is is two 123 00:07:04,700 --> 00:07:09,700 things that like more, like people will learn 20, maybe more 124 00:07:09,700 --> 00:07:12,400 languages, it's becoming normal, it's like sort of like it's very 125 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:14,600 possible. I said of the English is 126 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:20,000 becoming the predominant second language, but I see I see no 127 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,300 reason why we should have within the next future English beating 128 00:07:24,300 --> 00:07:30,300 out, Mandarin or English beating out Spanish because you can Even 129 00:07:30,300 --> 00:07:36,500 without, like, with only one language she can do quite a lot 130 00:07:36,500 --> 00:07:39,700 of, like most of your Social and financial interaction with like, 131 00:07:39,900 --> 00:07:42,300 just speaking one language, the other thing is, of course, we're 132 00:07:42,300 --> 00:07:44,100 going, we're going to get technology that helps us. 133 00:07:44,100 --> 00:07:47,400 Translate it much, much quicker area, and I think that kind of 134 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,300 connects back to what you were saying in the opening. 135 00:07:49,300 --> 00:07:53,000 That one of the things that prevents the monopolizing effect 136 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,800 of just the general positive Network effect is orientation 137 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,800 towards different goals. So it seems plausible that 138 00:07:59,900 --> 00:08:03,100 something like English would become the go-to language for 139 00:08:03,100 --> 00:08:06,000 most people who intend to conduct international business, 140 00:08:06,300 --> 00:08:10,500 but that many other places may have a desire to preserve their 141 00:08:10,500 --> 00:08:14,900 natural language for purposes of History, national identity or 142 00:08:14,900 --> 00:08:18,100 other things like that. That's where I'm looking though 143 00:08:18,100 --> 00:08:20,000 also. And I see that a strong sense of 144 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,300 globalization in general, and you can view that in a negative 145 00:08:23,300 --> 00:08:26,200 way if you want to. But I generally see the idea of 146 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,900 like Global Communication as being a good thing. 147 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,299 But also, Something where like you're like you're talking about 148 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,400 everyone understands English like it's their second. 149 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,900 It's their second language, it does it isn't necessarily the 150 00:08:37,900 --> 00:08:41,900 one they're using primarily but then if you are spending most of 151 00:08:41,900 --> 00:08:46,300 your adult life communicating with people who only speak or 152 00:08:46,300 --> 00:08:50,400 who rely on English in general to conduct business, it just 153 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:55,300 seems more and more to me like you are relying less and less on 154 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,200 every other language. Yeah, and that's that's very 155 00:08:58,200 --> 00:08:59,700 true. I mean you you seen cases like 156 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,200 Like that like Bayesian in. Yeah. 157 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:07,100 It's also a lingua Franca you have like situations and in and 158 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,200 for instance in Ireland, which more or less like made this to 159 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,700 switch that most almost everyone in Ireland, speaking English 160 00:09:15,700 --> 00:09:20,200 now. So you have this, not always not 161 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,200 always friendly influence that sort of gets part of the 162 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,400 population to vote to to switch. We have like if you actually go 163 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:31,400 back in history and look at like Countries like France, like 164 00:09:31,700 --> 00:09:36,300 French the French we know today was like the the language of the 165 00:09:36,300 --> 00:09:39,300 île-de-france like the area of Paris but like sort of in 166 00:09:39,300 --> 00:09:43,700 Southern Southern France, they would speak along dock in in 167 00:09:43,700 --> 00:09:47,100 Alsace they would speak German. Like in Brittany would speak 168 00:09:47,100 --> 00:09:50,100 Britain also, you have like 15, whatever different languages and 169 00:09:50,100 --> 00:09:55,400 dialects, of course, like part partly, instead of the unity of 170 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,100 the French government centralized again, French 171 00:09:57,100 --> 00:09:59,700 government was pushing for like sort of everyone. 172 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,300 Seeking the same language. And so you have this process you 173 00:10:03,300 --> 00:10:06,900 know like minimisation of communication standards which 174 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,900 language is and the more the more interaction you have the 175 00:10:11,900 --> 00:10:15,600 more you had you have this pressure but this does not by 176 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,200 itself. Sort of like preordained that 177 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,600 the ultimate outcome will be a single language. 178 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,700 You still have at any point in time you have that enough people 179 00:10:26,700 --> 00:10:31,600 within your your social network. Like people who don't even speak 180 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,600 English people, people who don't want to speak English, people 181 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,300 who speak English poorly, so you're much better off and 182 00:10:37,300 --> 00:10:41,100 speaking in your native language and if your if your Mandarin 183 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:43,400 Chinese I don't know what the number is like 700 million or 184 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:45,800 something. That's quite a few people to 185 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:47,900 talk to, right? So even if you want to be go, a 186 00:10:47,908 --> 00:10:50,800 single word of English. So and of course I could have 187 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,300 added that the mechanism. The more connections we have 188 00:10:54,300 --> 00:10:58,400 within the network and the more homogeneous these connections 189 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,700 are the more likely We'll see Monopoly outcome. 190 00:11:01,700 --> 00:11:05,200 But it once you have gold conflict, you have a network 191 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:09,900 structure that matches the goal conflict or the variety of the 192 00:11:09,900 --> 00:11:16,500 various goals and you have sort of loosely connected Network and 193 00:11:16,500 --> 00:11:19,600 you get multiple outcomes. This is sort of like, you know, 194 00:11:19,900 --> 00:11:23,900 in a nutshell sort of the things I was interested in before I 195 00:11:23,900 --> 00:11:28,100 started, like thinking thinking about like, crypto at all. 196 00:11:28,100 --> 00:11:29,700 But I also like getting it sort of matched. 197 00:11:29,900 --> 00:11:33,300 The discussion at the point and you're not you're not only 198 00:11:33,300 --> 00:11:38,200 having sort of like the discussion Bitcoin III mod also 199 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,900 have like multiple protocols within Bitcoin and a computer 200 00:11:42,300 --> 00:11:46,400 were competing for attention. So looking specifically at 201 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,600 cryptocurrencies, what factors, do you see that contribute to 202 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,100 it? Not being a monopolizing Network 203 00:11:53,100 --> 00:11:55,800 effect, like what are the gold conflicts are? 204 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,700 Structural details that tend to prevent that from occurring in 205 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:04,500 Cook do currency, a lot of it is, is actually attitudinal and 206 00:12:04,500 --> 00:12:06,100 things. I said about the e 3. 207 00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:10,300 Mm Community is very different from from the Bitcoin Community 208 00:12:10,300 --> 00:12:14,200 is also going to be different from Lizzie cash, communities 209 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,100 and others. But also they like started to 210 00:12:17,100 --> 00:12:20,300 have from a little bit of a different purpose to realizing 211 00:12:20,300 --> 00:12:22,500 that they're actually doing very, very different things, 212 00:12:22,500 --> 00:12:26,800 right? Bitcoin tries to be a base layer 213 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:31,400 currency, Global Currency and I'm sorry, call it easier to him 214 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:36,000 instead of idea an sap system for the Enterprise will also 215 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:40,600 database connectivity, much more ambitious goals and at the point 216 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,000 we are now this is makes more sense like to keep them 217 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,500 separate. So like without, let's not use 218 00:12:46,500 --> 00:12:50,700 language this time instead like you were talking about telecoms 219 00:12:50,700 --> 00:12:55,300 for instance before I mean we pretty much saw a near-complete 220 00:12:57,100 --> 00:13:00,400 monopolization of telecoms they were forced to To break up. 221 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,700 But now there's at least an oligopoly. 222 00:13:02,700 --> 00:13:06,100 I think we can all agree on like it's AT&T and Verizon in 223 00:13:06,100 --> 00:13:09,200 America. And so I just wonder if that 224 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,900 points to the idea that there's instead of it being even that 225 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,600 it's a goal-oriented thing because I think all the telecoms 226 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,300 had nearly the same goals which was just to have more customers, 227 00:13:21,300 --> 00:13:23,200 right? I mean I don't know what Verizon 228 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,900 is doing different than AT&T. They're building the same 229 00:13:25,900 --> 00:13:28,900 infrastructure out and fighting for the same exact customers. 230 00:13:28,900 --> 00:13:32,000 So, is it? Sometimes just a matter of like 231 00:13:32,700 --> 00:13:38,200 breaking things breaking up, only to come back together 232 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,500 again. Like, I guess I see it in 233 00:13:41,500 --> 00:13:47,100 Industry often being a little bit different than something is 234 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,400 as fluid as language. We're like, you can actually 235 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,700 have physical barriers, right? Like the reason people in 236 00:13:52,700 --> 00:13:54,800 England started speaking a different language as they were 237 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,900 on an island then. So I wonder if those different 238 00:13:57,900 --> 00:14:02,200 goals and and these this Ability to create that separation is 239 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,500 getting lost as things speed up with tech. 240 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,600 So the Telecom is very pretty good example, because sort of 241 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,800 like, when the the Bell System was created and the original 242 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,900 battle, it was broken up. It was broken up into geography 243 00:14:16,900 --> 00:14:20,100 and your upbringing geography into play now. 244 00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:22,600 And then I think we had 74 memory. 245 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:27,700 That 77 local baby bells a network that was pretty stable 246 00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:31,200 for quite some time larger because The point at the time, 247 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:37,000 most interaction by right off, phone was local, or at least 248 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,200 Regional. So it made a lot of sense. 249 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,700 There was no particular reason to like, do something about 250 00:14:43,700 --> 00:14:44,300 that. Now you see? 251 00:14:44,300 --> 00:14:47,200 See, I don't think when I was moved to, you're supporting a 252 00:14:47,700 --> 00:14:51,100 mid 90s, early 2000. They started like to purge 253 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:55,700 Claudia but driven because that business became not only like 254 00:14:55,700 --> 00:14:59,000 more like country white but it also became Global instead of 255 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,900 like Deeds. Sort of like the emergence of 256 00:15:01,900 --> 00:15:07,000 global sourcing and and like stretched out Supply chains. 257 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,500 Really like played into that or not scoring and D. 258 00:15:09,500 --> 00:15:12,000 It was also deregulated at that point as well. 259 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:13,300 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 260 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,700 But uh, so I think they would do were from memory has been a 261 00:15:16,708 --> 00:15:21,200 while ago, so we're able to merge before they actually merge 262 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,000 before they realize that it might make business sense to do 263 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:25,700 that. So long as you have said, like 264 00:15:25,700 --> 00:15:28,000 the more the more interaction you have, the more Global 265 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,000 interaction, more like Flat interaction. 266 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,100 You have the more likely you see you see you like number of 267 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:40,700 networks going down and of course, there are out, there are 268 00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:43,500 of course cases where we have a monopoly outcome here. 269 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:45,500 Basically, you cannot be kind of drill down. 270 00:15:45,500 --> 00:15:48,500 We could have like at one point we could have one Global 271 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,100 cryptocurrency way possible. Of course if you'd rather cut 272 00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:55,000 also have zero Go Global currencies is itself still and 273 00:15:55,000 --> 00:16:00,900 an open question, but sort of Mike my hunch from - standing of 274 00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:06,600 how sort of the market structure looks like, is its technology 275 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:08,000 structures. Look like, it's much more likely 276 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,100 that we have multiple. It's because it did are trying 277 00:16:11,100 --> 00:16:12,300 to solve. They're trying to solve 278 00:16:12,300 --> 00:16:14,500 different problems, and they will more and more go in the 279 00:16:14,500 --> 00:16:18,300 direction of focusing on the problems are able to solve. 280 00:16:18,700 --> 00:16:22,300 So related to that to you kind of expect there to be, basically 281 00:16:22,300 --> 00:16:26,800 a Winner Takes nearly all in like, a specific goal Direction. 282 00:16:27,100 --> 00:16:32,000 So, for example, perhaps Bitcoin becomes Is universal Global 283 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:33,900 Currency. Where's the theory of events? 284 00:16:33,900 --> 00:16:39,900 She takes over the vast majority of all the smart contract 285 00:16:39,900 --> 00:16:44,600 cryptocurrencies because it is able to combine the positive 286 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:49,500 Network effect with that specific goal or is there some 287 00:16:49,500 --> 00:16:53,300 other dynamic in the way these cryptocurrency communities are 288 00:16:53,300 --> 00:16:55,800 set up? That would make that unlikely. 289 00:16:56,700 --> 00:16:59,900 Yeah, this just brings us back to like the original All 290 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,800 conversation cast. And I had about like, the role 291 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,900 of geography. Rights of cryptocurrency is by 292 00:17:05,900 --> 00:17:12,099 Design is a global structure. Name is one of the that the key 293 00:17:13,099 --> 00:17:17,900 original of advantages that have that is sort of unlike Payment 294 00:17:17,900 --> 00:17:21,400 Systems back then, which would have completely like localized. 295 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:26,300 You had a Global Group globe, and a design of a global system. 296 00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:29,200 So you basically had something that would be able to supersede. 297 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:34,600 You can political boundaries and sort of, if you take that away, 298 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:36,900 if you take geography away, what's left. 299 00:17:36,900 --> 00:17:39,800 It's basically as that tribalism. 300 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,400 People believing in certain narratives, people, believing in 301 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:48,300 certain kind of factual's. And this is, would be the social 302 00:17:48,300 --> 00:17:50,400 Dimension. And the economic Dimension is 303 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,000 that the target different use cases. 304 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,500 And this is, we see both, basically right now, in terms of 305 00:17:56,500 --> 00:18:00,800 like, people have very, very strong beliefs about About where 306 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,900 the whole cryptocurrency and and blockchain world is going to go. 307 00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:08,300 And of course, this is, this is typical in that very new 308 00:18:08,300 --> 00:18:12,600 technologies but for now do you see the main tribalistic 309 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:17,200 Tendencies, as just being kind of, as opposed to dramatically 310 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,400 different goals or necessarily use cases. 311 00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:23,300 And while that may be the case for, let's say, Bitcoin and 312 00:18:23,300 --> 00:18:25,700 etherium, there are thousands and thousands of these 313 00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:28,400 cryptocurrencies, right? Do you think it is just mostly 314 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:33,300 attitude and Is it, is it a more ethereal concept of the 315 00:18:33,300 --> 00:18:36,900 differences between these communities in part? 316 00:18:36,900 --> 00:18:40,200 I mean, it sort of you have on one hand, the tokens that are 317 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,400 competing to become more dominant cryptocurrencies. 318 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,100 And then you have like many, many tokens that are you, that 319 00:18:47,100 --> 00:18:53,300 can be like, much more usefully compared to to equity in a 320 00:18:53,300 --> 00:18:57,400 company that you use them in order to deal with the product 321 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,400 as company puts out. So, and I I have a problems, I 322 00:19:00,408 --> 00:19:02,600 don't have a problem that is like I think hundred three 323 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,500 hundred different tokens, very much, like most of those tokens 324 00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:10,700 or tie it to a particular value proposition. 325 00:19:10,700 --> 00:19:15,600 I like to call us this, the, the problem of buying a Coke from 326 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,600 the Coke machine with co-chairs, which is sort of a strange 327 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,200 thing. But of course, like could be 328 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,100 technically possible and sort of deer, didn't D effect would be 329 00:19:24,100 --> 00:19:26,400 that. Like, if the coke the shares and 330 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,200 Coca-Cola goes down, Cook gets cheaper, which is He pretty 331 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:36,000 weird idea about us and really bad for Coca-Cola to like it 332 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,500 seems like it would be a bad spiral down. 333 00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:42,700 If like Coke, it's automatically cheaper, more people will buy 334 00:19:42,700 --> 00:19:43,800 it. So hopefully then the price will 335 00:19:43,808 --> 00:19:45,100 go. Up.this is the idea of course, 336 00:19:45,100 --> 00:19:48,700 the question is that's actually if that's actually like stable 337 00:19:48,700 --> 00:19:53,000 or that's a dynamic that will like Veer off in one of two 338 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,400 directions, go like going nowhere but of course I remember 339 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:01,800 like.com boom everybody. ADI, every heavy small 340 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:05,800 start-up.com startup was basically buying everything with 341 00:20:06,100 --> 00:20:10,200 with Equity look like getting getting a haircut and and 342 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,400 offering Equity because it didn't have any cash. 343 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,900 Yeah, one of the reasons I've been skeptical over the last 344 00:20:15,900 --> 00:20:19,200 several years of a winner-take-all, cryptocurrency 345 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,900 is in the nature of cryptocurrency governance. 346 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,200 We're often on certain foundational issues. 347 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:30,800 The final option for the group, who disagrees with Methods of 348 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,900 the other is to basically Fork the code base and start your own 349 00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:37,600 cryptocurrency. And so you repeatedly see this 350 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,500 splintering into these separate pieces. 351 00:20:42,500 --> 00:20:46,100 Do you have any thoughts on the Dynamics of like that type of 352 00:20:46,100 --> 00:20:49,800 governance, that type of forking and its effect on the network 353 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:51,400 effects for these cryptocurrencies? 354 00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:55,000 This is a I mean exactly and this is what makes sort of 355 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,300 basically consensus consensus mechanism. 356 00:20:57,300 --> 00:21:01,400 Such an intriguing thing is you Have like these splintering of 357 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:06,500 networks, like via gold conflict built into the design, right? 358 00:21:06,500 --> 00:21:10,700 So now we've seen racing as a couple times and think we've 359 00:21:10,700 --> 00:21:16,800 seen a case where you have like a cryptocurrency being forked in 360 00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:20,500 into fairly equal parts. Like most of them, like there 361 00:21:20,500 --> 00:21:22,800 was like one that like predominated. 362 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,400 But this is good peripheral, you happen and so like the goal is 363 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,700 very much. Like, what you don't see is like 364 00:21:27,700 --> 00:21:31,600 forking all the time, right? So, I don't like this particular 365 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,800 technical feature about this particular currency, so I'm 366 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:36,700 going to. I'm going to start a fork and 367 00:21:36,700 --> 00:21:38,700 like I'll do it every day, right? 368 00:21:38,700 --> 00:21:41,200 This is not happening. So you need some sort of, like, 369 00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:44,300 coalition's to emerge. You need like very strong, very 370 00:21:44,300 --> 00:21:49,200 strong gold conflict to emerge to, like, see, see a 371 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,400 cryptocurrency, split in two. And then what we've seen so far. 372 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,000 That the normal case is that there is one that's dominated in 373 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,500 the other one instead of becoming becoming a fringe. 374 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,300 Currency and this is very intriguing. 375 00:22:03,300 --> 00:22:06,800 Design is also a processor. Make sure that we'll have 376 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,400 probably not going to go to the D single dominating 377 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,000 cryptocurrency anytime soon here. 378 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,100 Oliver. I know you have some thoughts on 379 00:22:14,108 --> 00:22:16,700 the relationship between these type of mechanisms in the power 380 00:22:16,700 --> 00:22:19,400 of the state. Exactly what I'm like sort of 381 00:22:20,100 --> 00:22:23,200 been like looking at cryptocurrencies and like I 382 00:22:23,208 --> 00:22:28,200 don't know 2011 but like Mitch mid-2010 sick 1516 I remember 383 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,000 like Wizard of Oz of working Employee at asked me to write a 384 00:22:31,008 --> 00:22:33,700 little bit about like the economic perspective of 385 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,200 cryptocurrency. And I'm like, photo of, I think 386 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,000 back then was ideal any Economist with some sort of 387 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,000 academic economics, background. It was like actually mildly 388 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,600 intrigued by the whole thing, rather not repulse like many. 389 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,400 Many other prominent economists have very strong negative 390 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,600 opinions about cryptocurrency. But like sort of like one of the 391 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,000 questions I asked, is that occurred? 392 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:59,000 Like if he actually imagining that a cryptocurrency? 393 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:04,800 What Supersede the the nation state which is a common like 394 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,800 popular claim. So like it's just like play 395 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:08,600 around with this idea that will happen. 396 00:23:09,100 --> 00:23:11,600 And this is like when cast cast and I had like a little bit. 397 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,600 What discussion couple couple weeks about this is sort of what 398 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:16,400 Scott would like. How could this work actually 399 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,400 play out? Yeah, yeah. 400 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,600 Well I would love to hear, I would love to hear your thoughts 401 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,400 on that. Like, how would, how would that 402 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,600 play out? I mean, again, the interesting 403 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,500 thing sort of there is a precedent that says a real 404 00:23:27,500 --> 00:23:32,400 woman, robot Mandel's. Like work on optimal currency 405 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,500 areas which like if you're familiar with he's basically 406 00:23:35,500 --> 00:23:38,400 like considered one of one of the fathers of the Euro 407 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:43,100 basically saying because a currency does not have to be 408 00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:48,900 attached to a single country. It could also like whatever have 409 00:23:48,900 --> 00:23:52,000 bigger bigger role multiple countries and the only thing is, 410 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,500 you know, like the biggest thing you have like yeah there's a 411 00:23:54,500 --> 00:23:59,300 couple of couple of conditions, he heedless that and one of the 412 00:23:59,300 --> 00:24:03,200 big things is that basically have to have the people within 413 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:08,700 that community be willing to share the the cost of mutual 414 00:24:08,700 --> 00:24:11,100 protections, right? And sort of like basically 415 00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:15,300 Public public goods we have like defense internal order 416 00:24:15,300 --> 00:24:17,600 protection is getting unemployment because we're 417 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,900 protections and everybody is against infectious diseases. 418 00:24:21,900 --> 00:24:25,000 What we've seen in fact you preaching again flawed and so on 419 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,600 this is all costly and we have to have a mechanism like 420 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,800 bureaucratic Some to pay for that and it's like, usually, but 421 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:37,100 taxations, and then a process that decides like which, which 422 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,600 things were willing to pay for those, right? 423 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,500 If you think this little bit through it, this is like where 424 00:24:42,500 --> 00:24:45,900 do you see these situations? And it's typically like people 425 00:24:45,900 --> 00:24:49,000 have shared geography. So like neighbors. 426 00:24:49,100 --> 00:24:52,800 Very obviously people who have a shared language will have this 427 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,500 discussion and any people usually people who have a shared 428 00:24:55,500 --> 00:24:59,600 religion. And this is like what word, a 429 00:24:59,608 --> 00:25:01,900 nation-state comes from basically. 430 00:25:01,900 --> 00:25:05,500 A nation-state is a geographic protection racket, right 431 00:25:05,500 --> 00:25:09,600 bureaucratized protection. Rackets like feudal states were 432 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,500 not bureaucratized. So basically the whatever the 433 00:25:13,700 --> 00:25:17,600 king or because guy would just take any money, he wanted to to 434 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,400 to whatever like pay for his military and play for his 435 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,600 Endeavors. But like now we have and I don't 436 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,900 see anything. Was Ian cryptocurrency That Base 437 00:25:26,900 --> 00:25:27,900 here? Okay, it's that. 438 00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:31,900 So but this is we still have to basically solve the problem of 439 00:25:32,100 --> 00:25:36,900 coming up with a way to provide those public goods. 440 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:42,200 I suppose that the libertarian counter to that would be that 441 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,500 governance is unnecessary Sovereign. 442 00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:50,800 Citizen kind of like the idea of Taxation, the idea of everyone 443 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:57,600 agreeing to all of this stuff is opposed to and I'm not Say, I'm 444 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,200 not saying this because I don't think this is necessarily true, 445 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,500 but is a is opposed to the idea of many of these currents. 446 00:26:03,500 --> 00:26:06,300 These cryptocurrencies. Do you do think that there's 447 00:26:06,300 --> 00:26:11,600 facts to that or I am in general, a big fan of coming up 448 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,400 with private ways to provide public goods. 449 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:19,100 I think if you can do this usually in it Improvement, most 450 00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:24,700 public provision of public goods is very like inefficient, but a 451 00:26:24,700 --> 00:26:28,900 lot of sort of, like, deed Does angle of okay. 452 00:26:28,900 --> 00:26:32,700 We don't actually need like a governance structure. 453 00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:34,300 That provides all this public goods. 454 00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:40,500 All this protection comes from the assumption that any kind of 455 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,200 economic interaction is voluntary. 456 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,200 And if you look at, if you look at economic textbooks, you don't 457 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,600 really find. A lot of talk about violence. 458 00:26:48,700 --> 00:26:50,800 That's not even like just libertarian. 459 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:56,000 This is just basically standard standard academic, text books, 460 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,500 there is pretty. Much the assumption that, like, 461 00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:03,200 Dee Dee economic interactions. We have our voluntary where I 462 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,600 come from is Berkeley's, my field, advisors Oliver 463 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,200 Williamson was like, one of the big guys and in in institutional 464 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,700 economics, he basically asking all those questions is a like, 465 00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:17,000 what is the a governance structure that makes sure that 466 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,300 we can have Financial interactions? 467 00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:23,600 That are protected. And for right now, I mean, 468 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,800 probably not for much longer but for right now I would I would 469 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:28,700 That cash does a pretty damn fun. 470 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,600 Like physical cash bills do a pretty great job of ensuring 471 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,400 that privacy right? This is Spill we still have to 472 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,800 compete with us bro. You still by far the most the 473 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,300 most private way to pay for that. 474 00:27:42,500 --> 00:27:44,400 Yep. It's also like the most de most 475 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,200 peer-to-peer way to pray for that because ways the only 476 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,800 relies on me looking at the the bill or the coin and like 477 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,800 deciding if that's if that's the real water kind of feed, right? 478 00:27:54,800 --> 00:28:00,600 So you don't have we don't have a A like centralized mechanism 479 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,300 that sort of the overseas that a transaction. 480 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,900 If someone can actually replicate cash in an additional 481 00:28:07,900 --> 00:28:11,800 on my inner would be a big step forward, even even be on 482 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,200 blockchain, I very as we can, as we can see, I'm blocked. 483 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:20,400 Your Block Chain is as a centralized structure can it 484 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,500 shows like the typical that the typical problems of a 485 00:28:23,500 --> 00:28:26,300 centralized structure is congestion every time? 486 00:28:27,700 --> 00:28:30,800 There's a lot of action in any kind of currency. 487 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,500 We have like congestion problems. 488 00:28:33,500 --> 00:28:35,100 In congestion problems are problems. 489 00:28:35,100 --> 00:28:39,300 You know, with a centralized Network structure, you, you 490 00:28:39,300 --> 00:28:42,300 can't have congestion issues on a decentralized structure. 491 00:28:42,300 --> 00:28:44,600 Is that? Well, do you centralize maze 492 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,000 means basically, you have multiple multiple alternative 493 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,600 routes towards you compute compared to the main road. 494 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,400 But it could also be that those, I mean, like, if I just think 495 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,900 about a street, right? Like, if there could be a 496 00:28:55,900 --> 00:28:59,200 hundred different ways for Me to get to from my home, to my 497 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,200 studio. But like there's the freeway 498 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,900 which is always going to be the fastest or the shortest route. 499 00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:10,200 But then exactly taking those other decentralized routes, 500 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,700 could still take me an hour and a half longer than it. 501 00:29:12,708 --> 00:29:17,400 Normally would write dozens of one of one of the basic, the 502 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,100 basic laws and and transportation science. 503 00:29:20,100 --> 00:29:24,000 Yeah, I mean, is if there is a congestion level to the main 504 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,000 road versus the alternative route which basically had one 505 00:29:27,100 --> 00:29:32,000 You're even even if the main route is shorter, you're not 506 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,000 faster because it's more congested. 507 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,700 We getting Vicki going to into the weeds of network and a graph 508 00:29:37,700 --> 00:29:40,200 Theory know like basically all spotting cut points. 509 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:46,700 What happens if the the main route gets cut off happened and 510 00:29:46,700 --> 00:29:49,300 like some minor cryptocurrencies a couple times. 511 00:29:49,300 --> 00:29:54,700 Like the situation we had until very recently is that most of 512 00:29:54,700 --> 00:29:58,300 mining was was concentrated in In like Bitcoin, mining was 513 00:29:58,300 --> 00:30:03,400 concentrated in China. What happens if B gets captured 514 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,600 by but a Chinese State, I mean, it went a different route but it 515 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,300 sort of like these. These are like fundamental graph 516 00:30:10,300 --> 00:30:12,900 theoretic problems, right? So now this is where all the 517 00:30:12,900 --> 00:30:16,200 decentralization comes from. We want to have alternative 518 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,100 routes and we also ideally, you want to have Alternatives 519 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:25,100 Alternatives when one major cryptocurrency gets congested. 520 00:30:25,300 --> 00:30:30,500 So but so do you like There is no hole, encrypted, crypto 521 00:30:30,900 --> 00:30:35,300 currency were like loves decentralization, but there is 522 00:30:35,300 --> 00:30:39,000 no, like ideal decentralized structure. 523 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,700 We also always have to find a balance between centralized and 524 00:30:43,700 --> 00:30:49,700 decentralized organization, which really further reinforces 525 00:30:49,700 --> 00:30:50,800 the point. You open it. 526 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,900 Basically that the social structures and stuff inherent in 527 00:30:54,900 --> 00:30:57,800 these things are going to make it difficult for the The network 528 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,400 effects to lead to a single winner, take all because exactly 529 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,600 a single ideal structure. It's a matter of degrees and 530 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,200 with maybe there is one, maybe it's going to take us on a 531 00:31:08,208 --> 00:31:11,600 hundred years to find it, but it's sort of right now. 532 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,000 Right now, we like sort of a groping around and try and 533 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,500 trying to figure out how this how this thing's can work. 534 00:31:16,900 --> 00:31:19,800 Sort of if you if you if you're willing to take on a lot of 535 00:31:19,808 --> 00:31:22,400 conflict and a lot of drama, its really kind of going to exciting 536 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,700 thing to do. We how do you I mean, how do you 537 00:31:24,700 --> 00:31:26,900 perceive how do you perceive and handle that? 538 00:31:27,100 --> 00:31:28,300 Tribalism. Right. 539 00:31:28,300 --> 00:31:31,500 I mean you it seems like I mean, I wouldn't say I wouldn't 540 00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:35,500 suggest you're in the trenches on like cryptocurrency Twitter 541 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:37,900 getting in stupid arguments with people. 542 00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:40,000 You have managed to avoid that pretty well. 543 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,700 It seems like, but as an outside Observer of of this which I'm 544 00:31:44,700 --> 00:31:48,300 very guilty of it, and many of my friends are guilty of it as 545 00:31:48,300 --> 00:31:50,100 well. How do you perceive that? 546 00:31:50,100 --> 00:31:52,400 And what are your, what are your takeaways from that when you see 547 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:53,900 it? So intense? 548 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,900 Well, it's sort of a party like my data. 549 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,700 To job is to to like track a lot of technologies that take 550 00:32:01,700 --> 00:32:05,200 another 10 to 20 years to the market. 551 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,400 I was like very early and things like autonomous driving as 552 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,500 mostly by happenstance or thoughts on you and left works. 553 00:32:12,500 --> 00:32:16,500 And some other things I bait was basically able to follow along 554 00:32:16,500 --> 00:32:20,900 for like 20, 30 years, how these things evolved, right? 555 00:32:21,100 --> 00:32:24,700 And one of the things you have very early on is people like to 556 00:32:24,700 --> 00:32:27,600 take sites and that's very Simple, right? 557 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:29,600 Because you have binary outcome. That's going to work is good. 558 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,500 Not going to loosen this not going to work, right? 559 00:32:31,500 --> 00:32:33,800 This is the the simplest thing you can do with something that 560 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,100 unfolds over over a decade or more, right? 561 00:32:37,100 --> 00:32:40,400 We still have like, we still still have discussions about 562 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,400 like if there's ever going to be autonomous vehicles and this 563 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,500 started lying in the mid-80s and I'm like, my goal is always to, 564 00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:51,600 like, sort of realize that we cannot answer this question at 565 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,200 the point of, no because stuff will like, come along which we 566 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,600 cannot quite foresee and And like what I like to say is 567 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:03,000 always sort of like any sort of of those like sort of big new 568 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:08,300 technologies from like Inception to basically market dominance or 569 00:33:08,300 --> 00:33:12,100 something to take like, three to five miracles to get there. 570 00:33:12,100 --> 00:33:16,500 And a miracle is everything that is obvious in hindsight, like, 571 00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:19,700 Amazon being like, we're gonna not just sell sell books. 572 00:33:19,700 --> 00:33:21,400 Anymore, will sell other things too. 573 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,100 Ya know, like Amazon was a sort of like, yeah, we let others use 574 00:33:25,100 --> 00:33:28,900 our platform to sell. Stuff they're making money off 575 00:33:28,900 --> 00:33:31,900 like other selling on their platform at the end is they sort 576 00:33:31,900 --> 00:33:34,600 of realized? OK, there's money to be made if 577 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,600 you actually giving others the opportunity and that's like one 578 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,200 of the Miracles, right? You got a miracle. 579 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:44,100 They had is, is easy, WS, of course, but all of these stuff 580 00:33:44,100 --> 00:33:48,600 like you have these big ideas and you always have these don't 581 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,900 like hype disappointment cycles. And I like, usually, in this 582 00:33:52,900 --> 00:33:55,800 stuff, you have multiple how participant, but disappointment, 583 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:57,300 sex. We had that in And it 584 00:33:57,300 --> 00:33:59,100 cryptocurrency a couple times already. 585 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,400 And I like to call is like the drunk unicyclist, sort of year, 586 00:34:03,700 --> 00:34:07,500 like, veering from side to side, rather than trying to like find 587 00:34:07,500 --> 00:34:12,300 us like the perfect path. We'd like very, very subtle 588 00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:15,600 movements. You basically moving from from 589 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,900 like one end to the other and I've honestly, what will come 590 00:34:18,900 --> 00:34:21,699 out? And I also like my position is 591 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,800 very much that I expect the technology to play a much bigger 592 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,699 role than What the critics things and I assume that the 593 00:34:29,699 --> 00:34:31,300 like whatever. If there's a financial 594 00:34:31,300 --> 00:34:34,800 infrastructure evolving from this, it will look much more but 595 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,699 much closer than what we have now because sort of you can 596 00:34:37,699 --> 00:34:43,100 solve some trust problems with a, with a cryptic, but he sort 597 00:34:43,100 --> 00:34:47,300 of like the claim of the things we can solve with blockchain is 598 00:34:47,300 --> 00:34:52,000 still like very very like you over the top and we'll figure 599 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,900 out what we can do within and in my opinion a like for me it's 600 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,000 intriguing. Because what I've observed is 601 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,600 that sort of value creation, which will happen like in like 602 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,600 in like 50s to 80s. If you want like happened within 603 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:12,800 companies is moving more and more towards in between 604 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,600 companies, right? So we had to two big 605 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,600 developments, that was like, the auction. 606 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,700 And the other thing was it was a matching markets and platforms 607 00:35:22,100 --> 00:35:27,500 that really shifted value creation towards Between 608 00:35:27,500 --> 00:35:30,400 Enterprises. All right, so price, finding 609 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,100 that much, much better. And and the other thing you had 610 00:35:33,100 --> 00:35:37,600 Global sourcing yet Global multi-tiered supply chain and 611 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,500 like my problem is, I always like usually dealing with those 612 00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:45,000 like trying to make connections between accounting entities 613 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,200 Enterprises, right? And so this is why I'm why I'm 614 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,800 kind of like overall quite optimistic about this whole 615 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,100 thing but of course like you have to deal with a lot of 616 00:35:53,900 --> 00:35:57,700 bullets article to use that word you're looking at Blockchain as 617 00:35:57,700 --> 00:36:02,500 like a financial accounting, salute, global global global 618 00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:06,300 accounting solution. Is that how you in in between in 619 00:36:06,300 --> 00:36:09,800 between accounting entities into accounting system? 620 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,000 Yes, this is what I'm interested in interesting. 621 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,600 Yeah, because one of our good friends is an accountant and I 622 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,600 can't think of someone who hates blockchain more. 623 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,700 Maybe you know what? That's not fair. 624 00:36:20,700 --> 00:36:24,200 She doesn't hate blockchain. She she think some of it is very 625 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:29,300 cool but also I don't think she Thinks there's much value in a 626 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,400 in accounting, necessarily can you describe what you see that 627 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,000 value prop? As I possibly would, probably 628 00:36:37,100 --> 00:36:39,100 disagree with her. Like I have a conversation. 629 00:36:39,100 --> 00:36:41,700 Yeah, this is like, we're very far away and one of the things, 630 00:36:41,700 --> 00:36:43,200 of course, like we're building an account. 631 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,000 An accounting system, I like sort of D, fundamental 632 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:51,800 transaction within, within any crypto currency and blockchain 633 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,500 system, is, of course, like defend America on accounting 634 00:36:54,500 --> 00:36:56,800 transaction, undergrad, taking something. 635 00:36:56,900 --> 00:36:59,600 Off here and I'm writing writing it, there's a debit and credit 636 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:05,100 system but very few people within the crypto sphere are 637 00:37:05,100 --> 00:37:08,900 willing to actually like deal with and try to understand what 638 00:37:08,900 --> 00:37:11,200 accounting does, which I think is a mate. 639 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,500 Is a major major impediment. Really new billing and 640 00:37:13,500 --> 00:37:15,400 accounting system. Are you not willing to do 641 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,500 actually like DOD was like, yeah, like everybody hates 642 00:37:19,500 --> 00:37:23,900 accounting but I think it's like, like if you want to, if 643 00:37:23,900 --> 00:37:26,800 you want to deal with that wall, if you want to come up with a 644 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,900 Action all system. You have to understand what it 645 00:37:28,900 --> 00:37:31,300 does. And so it might derail us 646 00:37:31,300 --> 00:37:33,800 because eventually you have to understand like what accounting 647 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:40,100 does in terms of like basically protecting the value creation 648 00:37:40,100 --> 00:37:44,200 with an Enterprise or not, of course, if you want to move that 649 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,400 beyond the Enterprise to between Enterprises, which is like a 650 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,500 couple of orders of magnitude more complicated. 651 00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:55,600 Then you have to like, do the, the hearts lock on a actually 652 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,500 opening an accounting book. I'm sorry, Nan and I think a lot 653 00:37:59,500 --> 00:38:02,700 of our probably most of our listeners are familiar with all 654 00:38:02,700 --> 00:38:06,700 this stuff but there's been so many accounting frauds that were 655 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,300 I mean Enron was courtesy of some accounting fraud. 656 00:38:10,300 --> 00:38:15,200 We had Worldcom it was like a Scourge but I think when I've 657 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,500 spoken to accountants generally like the big four to this day, 658 00:38:18,500 --> 00:38:21,500 it was the big eight back. Then the big for now, they sound 659 00:38:21,500 --> 00:38:24,200 like they all have the same issues as they did back then. 660 00:38:24,500 --> 00:38:28,700 Like not a lot has changed. Of course, I mean, biggest 661 00:38:28,700 --> 00:38:32,600 purpose of accounting, is to reduce the opportunities for 662 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:37,500 fraud who will not solve fraud. It will basically make it a 663 00:38:37,508 --> 00:38:40,300 little bit more transparent for an outside investor darkness and 664 00:38:40,300 --> 00:38:44,100 what's going on within the firm, like, how is my money being 665 00:38:44,100 --> 00:38:47,400 spent on by the company Executives? 666 00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:51,700 But of course, like accounting is, is it discipline that has 667 00:38:51,700 --> 00:38:53,200 rules? But it also has a lot of 668 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,700 discretion sort of list. This is a fundamental thing. 669 00:38:56,900 --> 00:39:00,000 With an accounting that you have human discretion, and human 670 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:06,200 discretion is, is being controlled by, or should be 671 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,300 controlled by certain rules and obligations, and also like 672 00:39:10,300 --> 00:39:13,300 penalty. If you, if you getting caught is 673 00:39:13,300 --> 00:39:17,900 by far, not a perfect system, but it's probably better than a 674 00:39:17,900 --> 00:39:21,300 world where we don't have it. And this is sort of like my goal 675 00:39:21,300 --> 00:39:26,400 of actually moving this idea of accountability within the 676 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,100 Enterprise Eyes to accountability within within a 677 00:39:30,100 --> 00:39:33,600 an economy and like biggest problem. 678 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,600 I dealt with a professionally as we're definitely in a silo 679 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,000 problem. That basically you have siloed 680 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,100 accounting and transactional and supply chain databases that do 681 00:39:44,100 --> 00:39:47,400 not speak with each other. For me blockchain might be like 682 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,600 one of the one of the pieces of the puzzle that can solve our 683 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:51,600 problem. Yeah. 684 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,300 But of course you're going to have to you have to deal with 685 00:39:54,300 --> 00:40:01,400 the many many Potential fraud scenarios, you have when the 686 00:40:01,408 --> 00:40:03,200 blockchain will too. Yeah. 687 00:40:03,500 --> 00:40:06,300 Which are numerous exactly. Yeah. 688 00:40:06,500 --> 00:40:07,900 All right. Well, it has been a pleasure. 689 00:40:07,900 --> 00:40:10,700 Oliver, thank you for Jamie. Thank you for joining us. 690 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,500 It's been Illuminating for me, so I really appreciate it.