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Welcome back to finding the edge
podcast. 

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I'm Garrett, boy, am joined with
Garrett Baker and Robert Fry. 

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And today we have on Andrew 
Wilson, Andrew Wilson is a 

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professor at Leeds Beckett 
University. 

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And we brought him on to discuss
a tweet that we had seen where 

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he was talking about how a lot 
of sports science articles. 

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The way that I interpret it was 
just like sports scientist. 

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Just collect a bunch of data and
report it with no real 

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consideration. 
Ation as to why. 

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And I think that is something 
that I noticed for myself, like,

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it stood out to me, because I 
was, I'm the type of person that

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just wants to collect a ton of 
data so that it's there. 

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So later on, I can go back and I
can question it. 

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I can learn from because if you 
don't collect data, it's you're 

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having to basically remember 
based upon your recollection 

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recollection of the past as to 
what occurred and draw a 

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conclusions and inferences from 
that. 

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And so it's me better to have 
data. 

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Because sometimes you can 
complete days and events and all

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that sort of stuff. 
And so I wanted to bring and Ron

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to kind of discuss more of like 
the intent and the thought 

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behind that. 
That question also because 

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Andrew has done a ton of 
research in ecological Dynamics 

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as well as just knows the field 
really well. 

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And so I want to bring him on to
talk about perspective, control 

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and some of the other work that 
he has done. 

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And yeah. 
Yeah, to continue on with 

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Garrett's point. 
You know, we talked we talked 

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quite a bit about understanding 
like certain statistical 

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analyses and perspectives and 
like one important thing we 

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talked about was like, the data 
that we collect is there. 

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We just have to ask my questions
and being able to apply it being

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in, want to apply it and then 
apply it with a rationality 

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ecological Dynamics. 
Yeah, it's a good to go after 

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that. 
I thought I thought this 

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conversation was actually 
Really, really fascinating. 

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Like as we're going live, I took
well over page and notes and 

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then notes often notes to be 
completely honest. 

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So that's that's how good I 
think this this conversation 

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really was and that idea of like
asking better questions. 

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I think just kept coming up and 
I think it's something to really

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think about is actually asked 
this question recently about, 

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where do I think like all this 
data that were collecting in the

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pro pro orbs, where it should go
or where it may go and to me, 

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it's like, it should start, we 
should start asking better 

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questions of what to do with the
data. 

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Or start having a theory or a 
lens to look at the data through

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versus like having all this data
and then trying to trying to put

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it on people or looking at this 
very confined thing and then 

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trying to say that skill to me 
that's that's missing pieces of 

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it. 
And I think Andrew goes to a 

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pretty well and how he's 
approaching his collection of 

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data and how he's looking at 
things is really interesting and

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it's a different way than most 
scientists are at this point. 

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So it's really cool. 
I think to we discuss the 

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importance of having a theory 
because the theory is going to 

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shape how you see the data and 
we all have a framework by which

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we are looking at things and 
sometimes we're not even aware 

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of the lens or the framework or 
the theories that were actually 

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trying to approach the data 
with. 

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But a lot of times to we've 
heard how a lot of professional 

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organizations, they click on 
collect a ton of data and they 

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don't know what to do with it. 
And so, Of the things that we 

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discuss in today's episode is 
okay. 

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What do we do with data? 
Especially if we use a theory 

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like ecological Dynamics, how do
we then begin to examine the 

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data through an ecological lens?
And so, we begin to discuss this

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topic and we're hoping to have 
Andrew back on to explore this 

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idea. 
Further of, how can we apply 

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ecological, Dynamics with data? 
And that's been one of the big 

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themes of this podcast. 
And so, I hope you guys enjoy. 

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Today's podcast with Andrew 
Wilson. 

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Also, if you want to learn more 
about ecological Dynamics, one 

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of our favorite topics here and 
you want something that's a 

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little bit more systematic, and 
of like what are the basics of 

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ecological Dynamics. 
And some of the other motor 

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learning theories that are out 
there and how ecological 

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Dynamics is different, make sure
to check out emergence is 

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course, the movement Academy 
intro. 

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It it is a college style course 
that has that It's a, it's a 

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12-week course with 12 weeks 
worth of lecture along with a 

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discussion board and then there 
might be some other little 

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projects that they have. 
You kind of put together in a 

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discussion board, they'll be 
other people that you can bounce

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ideas off of they'll also be an 
emergence team. 

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Member to that will also be 
there to be able to answer your 

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questions. 
And so, this is a really good 

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starting place for somebody 
who's looking for something 

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that's more in depth, but also 
interactive. 

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And so, I highly recommend that 
you guys. 

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Check out the movement Academy 
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You can use the code edge, 7 to 
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And highly recommend it. 
Make sure to use the code edge 7

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to support this podcast and also
to support emergence. 

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To Jump Right In. 
I guess one of the one of the 

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struggles that I have is like, 
people still are quite attached 

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to the traditional models of 
thinking and then, but the way 

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that I think about it is that 
well this is the main thing that

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they interact with, right? 
Like this is usually the first 

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thing that they learn and so 
it's kind of like you know the 

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chick that comes out of the egg.
The first thing that it sees 

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becomes as mother type of a 
thing. 

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And so, once you've gone down a 
line of thinking and you've 

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actually started to build You 
could say Your Castle becomes 

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hard to shift to something else 
and so I have to acknowledge 

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that and then go. 
Okay. 

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Now we have to build a 
convincing argument I guess you 

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could say like for why this 
other path is better. 

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And so, I guess that's, that's 
where I guess I find my struggle

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when when talking to people from
this approach or about an 

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ecological. 
Approach and then perspective 

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control the challenge actually 
becomes. 

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I don't feel like I understand 
like I can articulate well 

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enough and simply enough like 
why why it is that this this way

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is is better. 
And the other way actually has a

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whole bunch of embedded 
assumptions that make it 

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actually difficult to 
practically work out and so I 

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guess, Oh the other element to 
is that it's a little bit newer 

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and so like there's the argument
that there's less evidence for 

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it, right? 
And so like well and then how 

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does it how does it practically 
work out you know like and I 

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think the practicalities of it 
and how it scales is it's very 

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subtle because if you're using a
predictive model and then versus

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using an ecological approach and
doing things for like a 

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perspective control perspective,
How you design your, practice 

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designs initially, or maybe in 
your most ideal State, actually 

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look very similar because both 
need information. 

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And so, that's where I think the
struggle is delineating 

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something because I think the 
underlying theories matter a 

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lot, especially once you start 
getting into The when you start 

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actually having to deal with the
real world, that is very 

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constrained, you're going to go 
for things that are a little bit

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easier. 
And so if you if you think that 

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you can just go with a 
predictive model and you can 

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break things apart because you 
just need to give the the brain 

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the information and then it can 
just put it, put it together 

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later. 
Then you when you're when you're

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under constraints like you won, 
You would just go with it. 

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The path of least resistance. 
That's that's at least my 

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thought of like why you're under
pinning Theory matters because 

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your decisions under stress are 
going to change or under 

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constraint is going are going to
change. 

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Yes. 
There's quite a few things going

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on in there. 
Did you have any references to 

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where to go? 
So know what stands out most to 

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you and your personal 
experience? 

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I mean. 
So the first thing is this idea 

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that people tend to come to the 
ecological approach. 

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Second is really common, it's 
really funny. 

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Actually, we talked about a lot 
as a conference last year, for 

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the first time in ages, reading 
out with his friends, in the 

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Netherlands and like we were all
people who came to the 

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ecological approach via a 
different route. 

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So we all had to do the thing of
unlearning. 

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A whole bunch of stuff we can 
because we encountered it and 

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decided that we would kind of 
resonated to it and thought it 

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was a good idea, but yeah, there
really is just sort of that fact

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of having to go through that 
process of unlearning and and it

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kind of mirrors the history of 
it. 

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So there's that history of 
ecological approach being the 

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Plucky Underdog and being bad 
replacement. 

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Being the alternative and so 
we're the ones that had to make 

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the case to kind of Justify Your
Existence. 

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But here's the thing, right? 
That argument at least in the 

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scientific literature that 
justification for our existence 

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and saying, look at actually 
it's a viable approach. 

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It happened 30 40 years ago, 
right? 

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So the field itself has been 
productively taking along 

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developing an Evidence base for 
a lots of these different things

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for a long time. 
So it's that weird situation 

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where actually like a lot of 
those fights. 

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Academically happened. 
So long ago and got an all the 

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reasons for saying that we were 
at least a viable alternative. 

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They're all their heart of the 
problem is that they are often 

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all there in Michael survey's 
writing. 

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God bless him and everything 
that he does. 

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But he's not, like you have to 
work to get into to get to the 

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meat of what Turvy is talking 
about. 

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It's always worth it because 
they're in Quebec Clarity in 

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that position that he brings to 
his good. 

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But there is an issue of 
accessibility, right? 

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And the right there is an issue 
of some of those things. 

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So I mean there's been a lot of 
root interesting moves come up 

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in the last law, so there's been
an increasingly large number of 

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useful and accessible books Rob 
Graves. 

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Obviously doing gangbusters on 
this run. 

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He's got a couple out now. 
And his podcast is obviously 

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been about doing this for a long
time, but there's a there's now 

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so terribly. 
He's writing his lectures on 

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perception, but was just came 
out and then there's the 

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lectures on action, which is 
coming out. 

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And that's kind of pitched as 
kind of a graduate level class 

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on theories of perception and 
action so good, but quite 

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detailed. 
But there's also now we're going

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to be our have their 
undergraduate scaled textbook as

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came out last year and actually 
I've just been reading through 

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it and it's good, it's great, 
right. 

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It's Engages with all the 
material and tries to convey 

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some difficult ideas. 
But it engages with them and 

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it's pitched at sort of an 
undergraduate level to try and 

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make it an accessible topic for 
undergraduate psychology 

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students to encounter in a 
sensible kind of way. 

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So like I think you're right I 
think it's a really real issue 

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but I also think it's the 
Vincent great strides in the 

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last few years about Ram 
creating accessible access to 

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information about the ecological
approach and how it works and 

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what it is and why it's 
interesting Yeah. 

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And honestly a big chunk of that
has been driven by the, by the 

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interest of applying it for 
ecological Dynamics to sports, 

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because when you're doing it 
sort of within the academic 

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field, you can get away for a 
bit longer with just being still

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a bit jargony orbit technical. 
But as soon as you try and apply

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it, then people very sensibly, 
come back and say, wait a 

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minute, how do I actually turn 
this into a concrete thing? 

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So that pushback I think has 
been really useful. 

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I think it's been a really 
useful sort of spur. 

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Yeah, so that's part of it and 
then I guess so one of the other

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things you were talking about 
and they're the sort of There's 

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this issue of your underlying 
theory of how all these things 

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work and how important that is. 
And that's one that certainly 

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one of the big discussion points
that comes out in within the 

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bounds of sport Science and 
coaching and things like that 

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people to talk about. 
Well, how how much do I have to 

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care about the details of the 
academic theory that underpins 

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this in order to inform my 
practice, and should I care? 

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And does it matter? 
And you were certainly coming up

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saying. 
Yeah, probably does matter and I

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would strongly Endorse that 
right? 

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I'm not a coach. 
I'm a scientist. 

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I'm an academic. 
So of course, I think our stuff 

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is important but actually I 
actually think it is because I 

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think it matters. 
I think you had a nice phrase in

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00:13:14,700 --> 00:13:16,700
there. 
You said you just let what was 

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00:13:16,700 --> 00:13:19,800
it your decision making Under 
Pressure kind of flips to what 

235
00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:20,500
you know. 
Right. 

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00:13:20,500 --> 00:13:25,900
And and if what you know or if 
kind of the core of of the 

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00:13:25,900 --> 00:13:29,400
motivation of all your coaching 
techniques is from a more 

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00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,500
traditional approach as soon as 
you hit and you put your trying 

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00:13:32,500 --> 00:13:35,200
to develop an ecological one. 
As soon as you hit any kind of 

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bear. 
Mayor or any kind of 

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00:13:36,500 --> 00:13:38,600
complication which can't quite 
get it to work. 

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00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,500
There is just that instinct to 
go back to what, you know, you 

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00:13:41,500 --> 00:13:45,100
can at least do independent of 
how much, you know, whether it 

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works or not. 
Yeah. 

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00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:47,900
So I think that's, that's really
interesting. 

246
00:13:49,700 --> 00:13:55,100
I mean for for myself I've seen 
people with minimal knowledge 

247
00:13:55,100 --> 00:13:59,100
actually like just having a 
rudimentary understanding of the

248
00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:03,500
concepts actually do quite a lot
with with that and then just 

249
00:14:03,500 --> 00:14:06,300
even to if you look at some of 
the most effective coaches if 

250
00:14:06,300 --> 00:14:09,900
you look if you begin to like 
begin to investigate a little 

251
00:14:09,900 --> 00:14:13,800
bit more into like what they do,
oftentimes it's very ecological,

252
00:14:14,300 --> 00:14:19,200
it might not be 100% ecological 
and I think that's where Maybe I

253
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,200
could see people then using that
as evidence for why they could, 

254
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:27,100
you know, sort of sit the fence 
and use both sides, but I just 

255
00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:31,500
think of it from the standpoint 
of if you want to be able to 

256
00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:37,900
improve what you're doing. 
Because oftentimes like if if 

257
00:14:37,900 --> 00:14:41,200
somebody becomes successful, a 
lot of times people just want to

258
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:42,400
copy, whatever it is that 
they're doing. 

259
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,500
And So eventually like because 
even in I think in pro baseball 

260
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once analytics became popular. 
But he had an analytics team, so

261
00:14:50,500 --> 00:14:55,100
now it becomes a question of how
you use analytics, like the ones

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00:14:55,100 --> 00:14:58,200
who are have a better system for
using analytics will then 

263
00:14:58,300 --> 00:15:00,700
therefore have the advantage. 
And so like that's where to me 

264
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:02,400
all these things come into play 
of. 

265
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,400
Like, if you want to reproduce 
your success, you have to have 

266
00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,500
an understanding for why that 
underlying success happens 

267
00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:12,300
because one of the that's triply
important for the ecological 

268
00:15:12,300 --> 00:15:15,100
approach, of course, because 
it's very much, not a kind of a 

269
00:15:15,108 --> 00:15:17,500
cookbook recipe, kind of 
scenario for your training 

270
00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:19,000
situations. 
It's very much around. 

271
00:15:19,100 --> 00:15:23,000
And the design of constraints is
very much a, an interactive 

272
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,100
process where you have to be 
fairly firmly embedded in your 

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training environment with your 
athletes co.design. 

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00:15:28,300 --> 00:15:30,700
And with them, it's kind of 
baked into the idea. 

275
00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:35,300
There isn't a Playbook of 
constraints that you can apply 

276
00:15:35,300 --> 00:15:37,700
in order to get specific 
behaviors to emerge. 

277
00:15:37,700 --> 00:15:41,500
It's unfortunately more annoying
than that, you can get stuff 

278
00:15:41,500 --> 00:15:43,500
reliably, but you can't. 
Yeah. 

279
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,000
And so having an understanding 
of where your where those things

280
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,000
are coming from in the 
motivation for them. 

281
00:15:49,100 --> 00:15:51,900
The theoretical kind of 
framework that's generating that

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00:15:51,900 --> 00:15:56,100
as an idea. 
That's that's how you generate 

283
00:15:56,300 --> 00:15:59,800
the next idea for trying to get 
the thing that you're trying to 

284
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,100
get to work to work. 
Absolutely? 

285
00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:11,400
well, in I I feel like in some 
ways I did this to myself. 

286
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,200
I was so hyped up on all this 
stuff that I didn't get enough 

287
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:15,800
sleep. 
So thoughts are going to get 

288
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:22,700
dropped and the middle of this. 
But I think Baker. 

289
00:16:22,700 --> 00:16:26,700
Because or actually Robert 
because maybe maybe we should go

290
00:16:26,700 --> 00:16:32,200
on the the data question in 
terms of collecting a ton of 

291
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:37,000
data because I think this is, 
this is Heart of it. 

292
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:42,700
Like to me, I think it's 
important from just the like 

293
00:16:42,700 --> 00:16:47,500
your Tweet on being careful, I 
guess, you know like just 

294
00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:55,900
collecting a ton of data without
having any consideration of Y 

295
00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:00,300
and Reporting it. 
I think that's the thing because

296
00:17:00,300 --> 00:17:03,600
like, when I've done stuff and I
have a like, I take something 

297
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:08,300
from a paper or whatever. 
And then I want to collect data.

298
00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:11,700
I don't do what I do with a lot 
of like the sports science 

299
00:17:11,700 --> 00:17:15,599
findings, whether you're talking
about something like motifs and 

300
00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:20,800
the the the ideal workload 
Management number that's sweet 

301
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,800
spot for acute to Chronic 
workload. 

302
00:17:25,099 --> 00:17:27,599
Yeah. 
I've seen criticism of it and so

303
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:30,300
hence where it allows you ask 
the question of like well maybe 

304
00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:33,400
I can actually ratchet that up 
or maybe I don't have to follow 

305
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:38,100
that as rigidly and like, We if 
we if we're to do more research,

306
00:17:38,100 --> 00:17:42,500
what we actually find the 
reality be somewhere different. 

307
00:17:42,700 --> 00:17:49,600
And so to me, I don't, I want to
collect data first and a bunch 

308
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:54,600
of data before I say exactly and
Report, like this is what, how 

309
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:58,100
we're actually going to use it 
because if I, if I work with my 

310
00:17:58,100 --> 00:18:03,300
assumptions first I will, it 
will exclude some things that 

311
00:18:03,300 --> 00:18:06,100
will actually work. 
Not that you don't Have an 

312
00:18:06,100 --> 00:18:09,000
intention and guide where you're
going and where you're looking. 

313
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,300
But in the same way of Rob, kind
of talks about it, like keeping 

314
00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:16,700
your affordances open like not 
coming to too much of a 

315
00:18:16,708 --> 00:18:19,500
conclusion too fast like keeping
yourself. 

316
00:18:19,500 --> 00:18:21,900
Open to the data especially when
it's new, right? 

317
00:18:21,900 --> 00:18:27,900
And that I think is where the 
the nuances is like if it's if 

318
00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:29,600
it's something that's 
established and we've seen this 

319
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,300
recreated pattern and we want to
go this direction, then I think 

320
00:18:33,300 --> 00:18:36,300
it makes sense. 
But I also think When we use 

321
00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:38,700
analytics, something that we've 
talked about before on this 

322
00:18:38,700 --> 00:18:42,400
podcast is good Hearts law of 
like when a measure becomes a 

323
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,300
Target it ceases to be a useful 
measure. 

324
00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:47,700
And so like trying to balance 
those two things and so I guess 

325
00:18:47,700 --> 00:18:53,600
that's where I think what really
resonated to me was there's this

326
00:18:53,700 --> 00:18:57,600
this need or this, this felt 
need to actually have to report 

327
00:18:58,100 --> 00:19:03,500
the data initially. 
To show value right instead of 

328
00:19:03,500 --> 00:19:08,900
just absorbing in an observing. 
So okay. 

329
00:19:08,900 --> 00:19:10,600
There's a few things that 
occurred to me on that front of 

330
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:16,300
me, do a little framing here. 
So, The tweet that kind of sets 

331
00:19:16,300 --> 00:19:19,800
us off and got us chatting about
having a chat was me, just being

332
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,600
a bit grumpy on Twitter and 
which I was just sort of. 

333
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,200
Identifying I've been reading a 
lot of papers from Sports 

334
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,400
Science journals like you for a 
couple of projects that I'm 

335
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,900
working on and this is a thing 
that I've noticed over the years

336
00:19:30,900 --> 00:19:32,800
and lots of different sort of 
context as well. 

337
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,900
And it really sticks out to me 
as a psychologist, prove it for 

338
00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:39,300
a variety of reasons, Sports 
Science, academic, papers, 

339
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,100
collect and report, a lot of 
data especially biomechanics 

340
00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:44,200
kind of work, right? 
They just they reported on the 

341
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,500
numbers. 
Very little discussion about why

342
00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:48,500
they measured those numbers or 
what exactly. 

343
00:19:48,500 --> 00:19:52,800
They think those numbers mean 
which and it sticks out to me 

344
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,400
like a sore thumb because I'm 
busy trying to figure out what 

345
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,000
all my numbers mean? 
When I measure stuff, like, what

346
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,000
am I measuring the right thing? 
And then my measuring am I 

347
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:02,400
actually successfully measuring 
something? 

348
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,700
That's telling me something. 
Interesting about the thing that

349
00:20:04,700 --> 00:20:08,000
I'm studying is a big question, 
it's a key question. 

350
00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:12,100
And part of the problem like 
data collection is easy bit, 

351
00:20:12,500 --> 00:20:14,200
right? 
But and so that's the problem is

352
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,800
that you have to kind of use. 
Is it in service of a good 

353
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,000
question? 
And good questions. 

354
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,300
Don't actually come from data, 
good questions, come from 

355
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,300
Theory. 
And, you know, there's lots of 

356
00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:26,300
philosophy of science on this 
and there's lots of ways of 

357
00:20:26,300 --> 00:20:27,500
people. 
There's lots of ways of sort of 

358
00:20:27,500 --> 00:20:29,700
thinking that this, but let me 
give you a kind of a concrete 

359
00:20:29,700 --> 00:20:32,800
example, right? 
So in Psychology actually so you

360
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:34,600
know how much those just saying 
as a psychologist. 

361
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,200
I have a theory mostly as an 
ecological psychologist that I 

362
00:20:37,208 --> 00:20:39,700
have strong opinions about 
Theory because in Psychology, 

363
00:20:39,700 --> 00:20:43,200
there's also that of a tendency 
to collect data and interpret it

364
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,000
in a fairly free form kind of 
way, it's whatever. 

365
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,000
Mesa statistics, do it cetera. 
And there isn't sort of a single

366
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,100
kind of cord. 
There are core theoretical 

367
00:20:51,100 --> 00:20:54,700
commitments and cognitive 
psychology but not to the point 

368
00:20:54,700 --> 00:20:58,200
where they're generating 
specific hypotheses or the times

369
00:20:58,200 --> 00:20:59,800
under the big. 
It's just kind of a constraint 

370
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:04,200
on how you talk about your data 
and in science. 

371
00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:07,200
What that gets you is a 
replication crisis, right? 

372
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,600
That's what it got psychology. 
The replication crisis is the 

373
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,200
problem where people were 
running experiments, finding 

374
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,200
statistically significant 
results and not, Not 

375
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,800
sufficiently interrogating. 
The relationship between the 

376
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,200
study that they run on the data 
that they were getting and 

377
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,800
asking sort of really they 
weren't asking important enough 

378
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:24,500
questions. 
And one of the one of the 

379
00:21:24,900 --> 00:21:27,500
results was that you end up with
a bunch of bunch of results that

380
00:21:27,500 --> 00:21:31,000
we just statistically accidents.
People got lucky there was also 

381
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,100
some, you know, there's some 
dodgy sort of practices that 

382
00:21:33,100 --> 00:21:35,100
were underpinning this but a big
chunk of this and a lot of 

383
00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:37,800
people talk about this as kind 
of a lack of theory. 

384
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,600
People weren't asking 
hypothesis-driven questions, 

385
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,100
they were just collecting data 
and running experiment, running 

386
00:21:43,100 --> 00:21:45,000
the next experiment running the 
next experiment. 

387
00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:48,000
And so and sports science at 
journals. 

388
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,000
I kind of see this quite a bit 
where it's just I collected a 

389
00:21:52,008 --> 00:21:54,400
bunch of data and I analyzed it 
and I found some differences and

390
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,800
I told you about it and then I'm
just sitting there going. 

391
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,400
Yeah. 
But what does any of it mean? 

392
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,700
Why did you run that day? 
What why did you think that the 

393
00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:05,300
velocity of that joint angle was
the thing that was going to be 

394
00:22:05,300 --> 00:22:07,200
the most important? 
Well, it was the thing that you 

395
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,300
measured, right? 
That's that's not a good reason.

396
00:22:11,500 --> 00:22:13,900
So there's that and that element
of that frustration and then 

397
00:22:13,900 --> 00:22:17,400
they It shows up, I think that 
the connection to analytics and 

398
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,300
pro sports as well. 
I think is really interesting as

399
00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:21,000
well. 
One of the things that's really 

400
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,500
intrigued to me. 
Lately is discovering just how 

401
00:22:23,500 --> 00:22:26,600
much data there actually is in 
sports Amino. 

402
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,400
And you lots of sports baseball 
and all that sort of stuff. 

403
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,100
And then the lead of this and 
collecting data. 

404
00:22:30,100 --> 00:22:35,500
But now it's really, really easy
to get movement kinematics out 

405
00:22:35,500 --> 00:22:39,300
of video, right? 
And, you know, automatically 

406
00:22:39,300 --> 00:22:42,500
digitizing an entire, you know, 
like English football game to 

407
00:22:42,500 --> 00:22:45,000
digitize in the position of the 
players all over, over the pit. 

408
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,200
For example, you know, first of 
all, it's been used to create 

409
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,500
all kinds of cool displays and 
you can see people passing and 

410
00:22:51,700 --> 00:22:53,900
when they're doing play-by-play 
and all that sort of stuff and 

411
00:22:53,900 --> 00:22:56,000
that's kind of cool. 
But it's really easy. 

412
00:22:56,100 --> 00:22:58,300
Now to generate those numbers 
automatically, like the 

413
00:22:58,300 --> 00:23:01,500
computational tools exist to do 
that digitizing and nice and 

414
00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:04,900
nice and robustly. 
And the and the thing about big 

415
00:23:04,900 --> 00:23:09,000
data is that you can find kind 
of anything you want and a big 

416
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,500
data set. 
And you only find things that 

417
00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:13,700
are interesting. 
If you use that data and service

418
00:23:13,700 --> 00:23:17,600
of answering good questions, and
data doesn't tell you a good 

419
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,500
questions to ask data data 
stages where you go with your 

420
00:23:20,500 --> 00:23:21,800
good question. 
But you have to have that good 

421
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,300
question ahead of time and 
scientifically that good 

422
00:23:25,300 --> 00:23:28,400
question comes from Theory which
means that if you want to be 

423
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,500
asking good questions, this is 
why it's important. 

424
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,900
Don't understand your theory and
to have a theory that you are 

425
00:23:34,900 --> 00:23:38,200
explicitly talking and thinking 
about as your source of your 

426
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,800
questions because actually as a 
scientist it's the source of my 

427
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,200
questions to go. 
Run my next experiment as the 

428
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,800
coach, the theory is the source 
of your questions to try and 

429
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,000
figure out what the next round 
of constraints are that you 

430
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,500
place to try and make your 
training session, do more of 

431
00:23:51,508 --> 00:23:53,900
what you want to do. 
For example has to be a place 

432
00:23:53,900 --> 00:23:57,300
where those come from, right? 
And so that's kind of the 

433
00:23:57,300 --> 00:24:00,100
problem and it's a I think it's 
a problem that occurs at a few 

434
00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:01,400
different levels of few 
different scales. 

435
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,400
Like I said, shows up in 
slightly different ways. 

436
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,900
It shows up, shows up as a 
potential replication crisis and

437
00:24:07,900 --> 00:24:11,200
potential disaster academically,
and it shows up as just kind of 

438
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:16,100
people just reporting stuff and 
you know, just there's so much, 

439
00:24:16,100 --> 00:24:18,500
there's so many numbers around. 
So the question is, what do you 

440
00:24:18,500 --> 00:24:23,400
want to do with them? 
And it's really easy to ask 

441
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:29,100
stupid questions. 
It's really easy, really easy to

442
00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:32,400
ask God questions, I that's and 
and so that's why it's really 

443
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,200
useful to have a good theory and
some explicit commitments to try

444
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,000
and say no. 
Okay, the reason why I'm going 

445
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,600
to ask that question rather than
this other question is because 

446
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,300
this is the one that makes most 
of the squid. 

447
00:24:43,300 --> 00:24:46,200
This is a better question 
because of my various 

448
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,000
commitments and it's okay to 
rule things out. 

449
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,200
That's the other thing. 
A good theory does having a good

450
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,200
framework having a good 
understanding of what it is. 

451
00:24:53,208 --> 00:24:57,900
You're trying to tackle. 
It's okay to rule things out 

452
00:24:58,100 --> 00:25:00,200
ahead of time and say, I'm not 
going to ask that question 

453
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,300
because that question doesn't 
make any sense. 

454
00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:05,000
Someone else wants to ask it 
because they think it makes 

455
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,900
sense, then that can be their 
problem and that's fine. 

456
00:25:06,900 --> 00:25:08,900
And if they find something 
interesting man, then you have 

457
00:25:08,900 --> 00:25:16,000
to have a conversation but It's 
okay to rule things out as no 

458
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,700
I'm not going to do that and 
that's another thing that crops 

459
00:25:18,700 --> 00:25:21,300
up I think in sports and sports 
science literature doesn't and 

460
00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:24,800
coaching and of the coaches and 
interactive people don't like 

461
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,400
ruling things out. 
People don't like saying I'm no 

462
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,900
I'm not going to I'm not going 
to try and do that for sort of 

463
00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:33,500
theoretical reasons over because
that doesn't suit my constraint.

464
00:25:33,500 --> 00:25:36,000
People seem to get very nervous 
about that whereas 

465
00:25:36,300 --> 00:25:38,900
scientifically you know being 
able to do that is there's a 

466
00:25:38,900 --> 00:25:41,700
huge help. 
All right, it keeps you focused 

467
00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:44,100
to keeps you grounded? 
It keeps you pursuing a 

468
00:25:44,100 --> 00:25:46,700
particular kind of coherent 
account. 

469
00:25:46,700 --> 00:25:50,500
So yeah, so there's a lot going 
on there and there's anything in

470
00:25:50,500 --> 00:25:55,700
particular to pick up on ya and 
to kinda pick up on that. 

471
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,300
You brought up a lot of great 
points. 

472
00:25:58,300 --> 00:26:02,700
So I think one, one thing that 
is a big struggle right now in 

473
00:26:02,700 --> 00:26:06,400
the analytics world is we treat 
a lot of things as prescriptive 

474
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,200
and what I mean by that is, you 
know, we just report data and 

475
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,500
Say, here it is but we don't, we
don't do the second Dairy thing 

476
00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:16,700
of, you know, what to do with 
it. 

477
00:26:16,900 --> 00:26:21,800
We just say, you know, hey X is 
y and I think part of it too is,

478
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,300
you know, there with all these 
numbers, like, there's a big 

479
00:26:26,300 --> 00:26:31,900
lack of knowledge and / 
understanding with it because we

480
00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:35,600
don't, we have this big 
constraint called time 

481
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,200
especially in the coaching. 
Yeah. 

482
00:26:38,700 --> 00:26:45,100
Because once you, No in colleges
that say maybe have certain form

483
00:26:45,100 --> 00:26:48,600
of analytics, but don't have the
staff behind it to be able to 

484
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,000
analyze you two numbers on a 
full-time role. 

485
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:57,400
They're going to cut corners and
with that being said, then it 

486
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,800
becomes an issue of it. 
Get good Hearts law but then it 

487
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,000
also becomes an issue. 
So like in the statistics world 

488
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,700
this happens a lot. 
I'm sure you've run across this 

489
00:27:06,700 --> 00:27:11,100
a lot quite a bit and Drew you 
know, a lot of Annotations will 

490
00:27:11,100 --> 00:27:16,000
try to fit an r-squared model. 
Try to just force variables to 

491
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,000
be like, oh my arse words did, 
so that means this, but then 

492
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,000
they fail realize, obviously the
classic quote, no correlation 

493
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:31,200
does not imply causation. 
So I think if given more time or

494
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,500
at least in educational aspect 
to understand like what these 

495
00:27:35,500 --> 00:27:38,500
Analytics mean and how we can 
apply them would help a lot. 

496
00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:43,100
But yeah right now we're just 
dealing with a big constraint 

497
00:27:43,100 --> 00:27:47,600
which is simply foot time given 
you know the amount of resources

498
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,300
available. 
Yeah. 

499
00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:54,200
Hi. 
I'll often say never send an 

500
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,100
engineer to do a psychologist 
job. 

501
00:27:56,900 --> 00:27:59,000
Definitely, never seen a 
psychologist to do an engineer's

502
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:00,500
job, but don't do it the other 
way around either. 

503
00:28:00,500 --> 00:28:03,200
And by that, I mean there's a 
lot of really clever, a 

504
00:28:03,208 --> 00:28:06,400
sophisticated technically 
minded, engineering people who 

505
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,400
have built the capabilities to 
accumulate, all this data really

506
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,700
quickly and efficiently, and 
effectively, and reliably. 

507
00:28:11,900 --> 00:28:14,600
And that's amazing that they 
were the wrong people to come up

508
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,000
with things to do with the data,
right? 

509
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,100
Because what they tend to do is 
they tend to generate numbers 

510
00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:23,200
based on things that they can 
quickly generate from the data 

511
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,800
set as opposed to trying to find
the data, what the data can tell

512
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,000
them about something that they 
actually want to know about. 

513
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:30,800
They don't know how to ask 
behavioral questions. 

514
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,800
So my favorite example of this 
right now is a football raisin 

515
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,200
in English sort of European 
football soccer is, you know, 

516
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,600
you can get these data sets very
quickly, you know, these clubs 

517
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,300
just send off the video footage 
of all their training sessions. 

518
00:28:44,300 --> 00:28:47,700
For example, a company company 
will digitize it reduce a bunch 

519
00:28:47,700 --> 00:28:49,900
of metrics and just send them 
back spreadsheet, right? 

520
00:28:50,300 --> 00:28:52,400
And all of those metrics. 
Acts are things like, you know, 

521
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,900
number of times person, X 
touched ball number of times 

522
00:28:54,900 --> 00:28:57,300
person acts passed the ball. 
Although, you know, some 

523
00:28:57,300 --> 00:29:00,900
interesting numbers, right? 
Why the thing is what and those,

524
00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:03,300
then become the numbers that 
people are using the data for 

525
00:29:04,700 --> 00:29:06,400
What why are those two numbers 
will? 

526
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,900
Those are the numbers that are 
easy to pull out some engineer. 

527
00:29:08,900 --> 00:29:10,700
Would look at go. 
Yes, I can count the number of 

528
00:29:10,700 --> 00:29:12,600
times somebody touched the ball.
That's the thing I can do and I 

529
00:29:12,608 --> 00:29:14,900
know the algorithm for that, 
that's fine. 

530
00:29:15,100 --> 00:29:17,300
But actually, the more 
interesting thing is not, how 

531
00:29:17,300 --> 00:29:19,100
many times did the person pass 
the ball? 

532
00:29:19,300 --> 00:29:21,500
What you really want to know is 
how many times did they pass the

533
00:29:21,500 --> 00:29:23,000
ball? 
When passing the ball was a good

534
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,000
option? 
How many times did they not pass

535
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,400
the ball? 
When passing the ball? 

536
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,000
Was not a good option and then 
the various combinations, right?

537
00:29:30,100 --> 00:29:31,900
And that gets you more 
complicated instead of just 

538
00:29:31,900 --> 00:29:35,200
asking. 
You know, how long, you know, 

539
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,900
how many times did person X 
touch and then pass the ball. 

540
00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:42,200
It's when that person had a 
ball, what will the opportunity 

541
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,900
while the affordances in front 
of them for passing, right? 

542
00:29:44,900 --> 00:29:48,800
What were the gaps? 
And here's the thing, all of 

543
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,600
that, all of those kinds of 
questions can be answered with 

544
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:56,200
the exact same data set, right? 
So instead of just taking the 

545
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,000
data, from an individual and 
Counting, how many times they do

546
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,800
things with the ball. 
Now, you have to start asking 

547
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:02,500
questions when the person had 
the ball. 

548
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,300
Where was everybody else that 
data exists in the data set. 

549
00:30:06,300 --> 00:30:09,000
But no one's thinking to us, as 
well, when I say no, and people 

550
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,200
are starting to think about how 
to ask these questions. 

551
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,700
They're harder questions, and 
then the kinds of questions that

552
00:30:14,700 --> 00:30:16,800
you only think to ask. 
If you think affordances are 

553
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,400
interesting and there any of the
kinds of things, if you start 

554
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,200
thinking of it more 
relationally, where you where 

555
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,900
the skill of a player is not 
just, did they pass the ball 

556
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:26,600
with that? 
They pass the ball, when passing

557
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,600
the ball was a good option, 
right? 

558
00:30:28,700 --> 00:30:31,000
How many times did they try to 
pass the ball when it really 

559
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,100
wasn't on, right? 
Those are too, you know. 

560
00:30:33,300 --> 00:30:36,800
Very distinct questions, but 
it's all. 

561
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,400
It's all potentially answerable.
This is the thing that intrigued

562
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,800
me. 
Is that the data is there. 

563
00:30:41,900 --> 00:30:43,300
You just have to ask different 
questions. 

564
00:30:43,300 --> 00:30:45,200
I would like I said, there are 
people out there who are trying 

565
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:46,800
to ask and answer these 
different questions. 

566
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,000
But the reason why those people 
are coming up with those 

567
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,200
different questions is that 
they're ecologically driven, 

568
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:52,500
right? 
They understand that they're 

569
00:30:52,500 --> 00:30:55,600
coming at it from an ecological 
perspective of coming at it, 

570
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,600
from an understanding of more 
dynamical systems and thinking 

571
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,000
more dynamically and thinking 
about process, rather than 

572
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,900
outcome, So the good questions 
aren't coming from the data? 

573
00:31:05,900 --> 00:31:08,500
Write the data is there and can 
be interrogated in a bunch of 

574
00:31:08,508 --> 00:31:10,600
different ways. 
So and that gets back to the 

575
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,600
idea of just, you know, 
generating, you're a square foot

576
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,600
or whatever it is on whatever 
your data. 

577
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,800
Statistics are great but what 
statistics are is, it's a linear

578
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,800
model. 
You're trying to model your data

579
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,000
with a set of linear components.
If it kind of model, a nonlinear

580
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,300
system and you're only going to 
get an approximation out of your

581
00:31:30,300 --> 00:31:35,300
model unless your model of the 
data can handle non-linearity, 

582
00:31:35,300 --> 00:31:36,900
right? 
So a general linear model is 

583
00:31:36,900 --> 00:31:39,400
useful and Powerful because the 
maths is straightforward and it 

584
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,700
works surprisingly well, but the
reality is that actually the 

585
00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:45,600
things that were kind of 
interested in especially once 

586
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,100
you Getting into Pro Sports, 
especially when you start 

587
00:31:48,100 --> 00:31:51,300
getting into more complex, you 
know, sports with multiple teams

588
00:31:51,300 --> 00:31:53,800
and lots of different people and
lots of different moving parts 

589
00:31:54,700 --> 00:31:57,100
that's a man. 
That's immediately a nonlinear 

590
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,400
complex system and you need to 
be approaching the data from an 

591
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,600
entirely from a, radically 
different perspective in order 

592
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,400
to be getting any sort of 
meaningful answers out of the 

593
00:32:07,408 --> 00:32:09,800
data. 
But I did, like I said, I just 

594
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,300
want to emphasize, right? 
I get kind of thank you for this

595
00:32:12,300 --> 00:32:15,700
but I am optimistic. 
And the reason I'm optimistic is

596
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,500
The technology that now exists 
to generate the data quickly and

597
00:32:18,500 --> 00:32:22,200
efficiently produces data but 
can be interrogated. 

598
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,600
Using these tools we just need 
to join up more and then the 

599
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,300
other thing gets of, you know 
that you're talking about the 

600
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,400
the the time for the coaches. 
Coaches weren't involved in the 

601
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,100
development of the interface for
pulling out which variables 

602
00:32:34,100 --> 00:32:35,500
right? 
This is the engine, somebody 

603
00:32:35,500 --> 00:32:38,000
sent the engineers to do the 
coaches in the psychologist job.

604
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,800
So the engineers didn't develop 
metrics based on what the 

605
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,400
coaches wanted to know. 
The coaches are having to learn 

606
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,700
how to do stuff with the numbers
that the engineers were able to 

607
00:32:46,700 --> 00:32:49,700
easily pull out of the data. 
So that's and that's the wrong 

608
00:32:49,700 --> 00:32:51,500
way around. 
That's a bad design process, 

609
00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:54,500
right? 
So the ideal situation, which 

610
00:32:54,500 --> 00:32:57,000
again, is happening out there in
the world, but it needs to 

611
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:58,400
happen. 
What needs to happen? 

612
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:03,300
More is that They technically 
minded, people need to be asking

613
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,200
need to be applying those 
technical skills to answering 

614
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:10,200
questions brought to them by the
behavioral experts boat 

615
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,700
ecologist by coaches by athletes
and people actually know what's 

616
00:33:14,700 --> 00:33:18,100
going on. 
Take those questions, apply 

617
00:33:18,100 --> 00:33:20,300
those technical skills to 
answering those questions. 

618
00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:23,000
And then building the nice flash
interface that takes the data 

619
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,400
automatically generated those 
numbers instead of different, 

620
00:33:26,500 --> 00:33:27,800
right? 
And so that's again, it's a more

621
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,000
iterative design process but 
it's and it's it's a mystery to 

622
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,200
me, why? 
It's not the norm, right? 

623
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:40,100
People people seem to have a 
very They don't seem to think 

624
00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:44,100
that coaches should be involved 
in the design of the of the 

625
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,500
analytics product. 
They might talk to them about 

626
00:33:46,500 --> 00:33:49,100
the usability of the interface 
and have that kind of user 

627
00:33:49,100 --> 00:33:51,100
discussion, but they don't seem 
to be involving them in the 

628
00:33:51,100 --> 00:33:56,000
development process and we and 
the name, the net result is a 

629
00:33:56,008 --> 00:33:58,400
bunch of numbers. 
Some of which are interesting 

630
00:33:58,500 --> 00:34:00,900
and might correlate the 
something interesting, some of 

631
00:34:00,900 --> 00:34:02,400
which aren't, and then you hit 
people. 

632
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,000
And then of course if you've got
coaches with limited time, 

633
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,700
trying to figure out which 
numbers are good and which 

634
00:34:06,700 --> 00:34:08,699
numbers are bad and eventually 
throw the whole thing out, The 

635
00:34:08,699 --> 00:34:11,699
waste of time. 
So anyway, that's my picture. 

636
00:34:11,699 --> 00:34:13,600
There's any analytics companies 
out there that want to play. 

637
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,600
Come talk to me, right? 
I can solve all your problems 

638
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,300
and you can solve or Mine by 
being able to implement these 

639
00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:25,600
things. 
Yeah, and then to kind of like 

640
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,900
bring some more like to it, you 
know, like like you mentioned in

641
00:34:30,900 --> 00:34:35,900
terms of football. 
So stats bomb allowed users to 

642
00:34:35,900 --> 00:34:39,500
use open source, tracking data 
for the World Cup. 

643
00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:46,300
So within that, you know, I know
this happens a lot in terms of, 

644
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,400
you know, understanding like 
football, both European and 

645
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,300
American is Is, you know, 
affordances, it's like oh, that 

646
00:34:53,300 --> 00:34:57,700
guy was open when I release the 
ball or pass the ball, but then 

647
00:34:57,700 --> 00:35:01,300
he wasn't so like being able to 
analyze that data. 

648
00:35:01,700 --> 00:35:06,800
Highly crucial on that end. 
But you know, I just thought 

649
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,000
that was a good point on that 
and but, you know, like you said

650
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,800
to that that technical model in 
terms of Engineers, like, that's

651
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,300
another great point. 
But you know, the fallacy that 

652
00:35:19,300 --> 00:35:22,500
we're underway Right now is we 
want things quickly, you know, 

653
00:35:22,500 --> 00:35:27,300
if we don't if we go to like a 
fast food place and say, you 

654
00:35:27,300 --> 00:35:30,300
know, hey I want a hamburger 
with fries, like we don't want 

655
00:35:30,300 --> 00:35:33,900
to like break it down and say, 
like, I want this beat, you 

656
00:35:33,900 --> 00:35:37,500
know, this Patty this way. 
This Predator cooked medium, 

657
00:35:37,500 --> 00:35:41,200
etc, etc. 
So I think part of it, too is 

658
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,500
just adding a little bit of 
patience into our system. 

659
00:35:46,500 --> 00:35:48,600
Yes. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

660
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,500
Because these things do take 
time and they are little miss 

661
00:35:51,500 --> 00:35:54,900
here and it is the relationship 
between the number and 

662
00:35:54,900 --> 00:35:58,100
performances harder, right? 
I mean, this is the other 

663
00:35:58,100 --> 00:35:59,900
fingers that this, the other 
thing that I know that it's 

664
00:35:59,900 --> 00:36:02,300
provides, this kind of that 
illusion of Simplicity and 

665
00:36:02,300 --> 00:36:05,300
control. 
Oh, I got someone to run faster.

666
00:36:05,300 --> 00:36:06,800
Therefore, they're a bit of 
footballer. 

667
00:36:06,900 --> 00:36:09,000
Looks like now actually, you've 
got them to run faster. 

668
00:36:10,100 --> 00:36:12,800
With a runoff that right, do 
anything, useful on the football

669
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,000
field is an entirely separate 
question, right? 

670
00:36:16,900 --> 00:36:19,500
And so you know it's delightful 
that you were able to get them 

671
00:36:19,500 --> 00:36:23,700
to run faster and then measure 
that And sure being able to run 

672
00:36:23,900 --> 00:36:26,700
fast, definitely correlates with
some performance things on the 

673
00:36:26,700 --> 00:36:30,100
football field with your a 
squared of, you know, whatever 

674
00:36:30,100 --> 00:36:33,600
it is. 
But yeah, we can probably do 

675
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,200
better than that. 
Actually, that's the other thing

676
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:36,500
I would like, like, that's it, 
right? 

677
00:36:36,500 --> 00:36:39,300
Sure, you can do that. 
And you can get some information

678
00:36:39,300 --> 00:36:42,300
out and it's clearly working 
because some companies and some 

679
00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:46,000
teams are doing things like 
this, and getting benefits from 

680
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,400
it, right able to Jitney able to
push things forward. 

681
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:51,800
I just feel like we can probably
do even better. 

682
00:36:53,100 --> 00:36:57,100
I mean I that to me is the the 
whole point there of like I 

683
00:36:57,100 --> 00:36:59,100
think we can do better than what
we're currently doing. 

684
00:36:59,100 --> 00:37:02,700
But when people's jobs are on 
the line, I think they want, 

685
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,600
they want something that is more
proven like okay you want to do 

686
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,500
this, and this is where to me, 
the whole report system comes in

687
00:37:09,500 --> 00:37:13,300
is like there's a game being 
played of a person with a nicer 

688
00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:15,700
Report with something that's 
easier to grasp. 

689
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:18,600
Is more likely to get move 
forward. 

690
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,800
Then something that is a little 
bit more complex that takes a 

691
00:37:20,808 --> 00:37:24,900
little bit more time to like 
really grasp and understand and 

692
00:37:24,900 --> 00:37:30,000
that's that's where I think the 
challenge at least to me is even

693
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,800
if you use experts are like 
coaches to develop technology, 

694
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,300
they wouldn't develop what the 
bat sensors were telling us if 

695
00:37:37,300 --> 00:37:39,100
that makes sense. 
Like everybody tries to take 

696
00:37:39,100 --> 00:37:42,400
their understanding of a 
mechanical model of an like a 

697
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,900
traditionalist approach of like 
an ideal way to move. what 

698
00:37:46,900 --> 00:37:50,500
they've come to understand like 
to be the biomechanical best 

699
00:37:50,500 --> 00:37:54,100
optimal and they try to shove 
that into what the technology 

700
00:37:54,100 --> 00:37:58,500
spits out cuz I saw that happen 
when the bat sensors came out of

701
00:37:58,500 --> 00:38:01,200
people who are trying to infer 
like over there hand staying 

702
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:05,400
inside and even though it the 
technology didn't necessarily 

703
00:38:06,100 --> 00:38:12,500
demonstrate that but it was just
interesting to see that because 

704
00:38:12,500 --> 00:38:15,700
it even to if you believe that a
batter should actually swing 

705
00:38:15,700 --> 00:38:17,700
down The ball. 
Well then you're going to change

706
00:38:17,700 --> 00:38:20,700
how you actually look at it. 
Even though all your data coming

707
00:38:20,700 --> 00:38:23,800
in doesn't most often doesn't 
reflect that you're going to try

708
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,400
to push the data in a certain 
direction. 

709
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:30,600
And so to me, that's where 
there's something to be said of 

710
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,300
observing what's going on First 
and not immediately, assuming 

711
00:38:34,300 --> 00:38:36,300
that it's wrong in that you need
to fix it. 

712
00:38:36,500 --> 00:38:41,200
Like and that's, that's where I 
see like, sometimes the, the 

713
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,600
danger of taking your 
preconceived notions and trying 

714
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:48,200
to fit everything to that. 
That and change reality to fit 

715
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,700
your your theory. 
And so that's where I think it's

716
00:38:51,700 --> 00:38:57,000
like, it's you why theories are 
important and like because like 

717
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,300
for example, when you start 
talking about science, like I 

718
00:38:59,300 --> 00:39:03,000
almost would like to hear your 
thoughts on like the myths of 

719
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,800
science that people because it 
they have, right. 

720
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,100
You talked about, I mean I've 
heard of like these different 

721
00:39:08,100 --> 00:39:09,600
theories of like the frame 
problem. 

722
00:39:09,900 --> 00:39:14,500
And in this idea of using that 
idea to like, explain why is it 

723
00:39:14,508 --> 00:39:16,800
that we struggle to be on the 
The same page. 

724
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,100
And this is me like, I mean I've
only just interacted with this 

725
00:39:20,100 --> 00:39:23,400
so like I don't have a deep 
understanding of it, but I know 

726
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:27,400
that this is a whole theory that
helps and and part of what's 

727
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,100
useful of something that's 
well-constructed is that it 

728
00:39:31,100 --> 00:39:37,100
gives you proper constraints to 
keep you to direct you. 

729
00:39:37,100 --> 00:39:41,100
More towards your goal of what 
we actually all want but because

730
00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:44,100
we've been sold, oftentimes this
a like pop science. 

731
00:39:44,500 --> 00:39:48,600
Understanding of things like to 
me, everybody talks about like 

732
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:53,500
well can you explain it? 
Simply and it's like if your 

733
00:39:53,500 --> 00:39:56,700
goal is always Simplicity and to
explain it simply not that 

734
00:39:56,700 --> 00:40:00,800
that's necessarily a bad goal. 
Oftentimes you strip out the 

735
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,900
what something actually means in
order to get that Simplicity. 

736
00:40:04,900 --> 00:40:07,900
And so you actually you lose you
don't actually have the whole 

737
00:40:07,900 --> 00:40:12,200
thing, a really good Simplicity.
Actually transmits almost the 

738
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,200
whole thing to a person to be 
able to actually Stand it. 

739
00:40:15,500 --> 00:40:20,800
Yes, so yeah, this is a thing. 
So one of the hats that I wear 

740
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:22,800
in my day job as an educator, 
right? 

741
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,500
So, I'm a lecturer at a 
university, so I teach. 

742
00:40:26,500 --> 00:40:29,000
But I'm also interested in 
successfully communicating and 

743
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,100
educating people about 
ecological approach. 

744
00:40:32,100 --> 00:40:34,200
Through my papers are 
interacting on social media, 

745
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:38,400
Etc. 
So, this issue of how best to 

746
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,900
educate people about these 
things is very much on my mind 

747
00:40:40,900 --> 00:40:42,900
and then one of the things that 
the specially comes up in the 

748
00:40:42,900 --> 00:40:46,000
coaching Realm, And it 
especially gets thrown around in

749
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:47,800
social media. 
Is this idea that we could 

750
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,500
logical psychology notes? 
It's too hard. 

751
00:40:50,500 --> 00:40:53,000
It's too full of jargon and all 
that sort of stuff. 

752
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,700
Can't you make it simpler? 
Can't just rip it down and I 

753
00:40:55,700 --> 00:41:00,900
think your point is very well 
taken, but actually, There's, 

754
00:41:01,700 --> 00:41:06,900
there's being clear and there's 
simplifying and those are, those

755
00:41:06,900 --> 00:41:08,300
can easily be two different 
things. 

756
00:41:08,300 --> 00:41:11,900
Simplifying can often just be 
trying to take a square peg in 

757
00:41:11,900 --> 00:41:15,800
jamming through a round hole and
you if you know you succeed but 

758
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:17,900
when it comes out, it's not a 
square peg anymore, right? 

759
00:41:17,900 --> 00:41:23,100
It's being rounded up. 
So I always try and reply to 

760
00:41:23,100 --> 00:41:26,900
people and say, look, I get that
there are technical terms in the

761
00:41:26,900 --> 00:41:30,200
Act and the ecological approach.
For example, we talked about 

762
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,100
things that don't feature in 
everyday language. 

763
00:41:32,100 --> 00:41:35,300
We talk about attractors and 
Paris dynamical systems and we 

764
00:41:35,300 --> 00:41:37,400
talked about affordances, we 
talk about perceptual 

765
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,200
information, we talked about 
Attunement and all these kinds 

766
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,300
of self-organization and part of
the issue was these Concepts 

767
00:41:43,300 --> 00:41:46,100
don't just float around in 
day-to-day conversation the way 

768
00:41:46,100 --> 00:41:48,600
a lot of psychology in 
psychological terms, pleasure 

769
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,200
around in Daily conversation. 
So they are technical terms in 

770
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:56,000
that sense, but part of the 
issue was their only jargon if 

771
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,100
they're kept impenetrable and I 
can help for example, bring 

772
00:42:00,100 --> 00:42:03,700
someone along for the ride of 
learning, what those words mean 

773
00:42:03,700 --> 00:42:07,000
and how to use them, but the 
person's gotta meet me halfway, 

774
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:08,700
right? 
They that that like there's a 

775
00:42:08,700 --> 00:42:13,700
there's a responsibility of the 
learner To come towards me as I 

776
00:42:13,707 --> 00:42:16,400
am coming towards them and then 
we figure out how best to get 

777
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,800
this to work. 
And the thing is without that 

778
00:42:20,500 --> 00:42:24,100
with just the demand to make it 
simpler, make it consumable for 

779
00:42:24,100 --> 00:42:27,200
me, that's not how that's not, 
how Learning Works fundamentally

780
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,900
that's not how learning what 
that is. 

781
00:42:29,900 --> 00:42:34,600
Is it's just an objection that's
designed to make it so that I 

782
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,100
can succeed. 
So it's kind of a it's a bit of 

783
00:42:38,100 --> 00:42:41,800
a bad faith move and you know em
but here's the thing right? 

784
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:46,100
It comes up you know students 
will come to me and say I just 

785
00:42:46,100 --> 00:42:49,000
wanted simpler and part of my 
job as convincing them that 

786
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,600
actually we both have Some 
responsibility here, I'm willing

787
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:54,900
to do my part right and come in 
and try and help those 

788
00:42:54,900 --> 00:42:56,300
communicate. 
That, that's fine. 

789
00:42:56,500 --> 00:42:59,100
It's okay that but it's also, 
it's okay that the stuff is 

790
00:42:59,300 --> 00:43:03,800
initially a bit tricky and new 
and that if you want to actually

791
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:05,900
understand, if I can't, I can't 
give you that. 

792
00:43:05,900 --> 00:43:07,500
I can't give you knowledge. 
Well, let's face it. 

793
00:43:07,500 --> 00:43:09,600
That's a very ecological notion 
right there. 

794
00:43:10,300 --> 00:43:12,800
I can't give you knowledge and 
have you and make, you know 

795
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:14,200
something. 
Right. 

796
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:19,200
What we can do is between us 
come to an agreement about 

797
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,500
what's going on. 
And the terms of just the 

798
00:43:22,508 --> 00:43:25,600
vocabulary, the terms, the 
language is just it's just a 

799
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:31,300
vocabulary that enables us to 
talk about it as well as you 

800
00:43:31,300 --> 00:43:34,200
know, I've got as a whole tool. 
You know, toolbox of dynamical 

801
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,200
systems modeling stuff that 
enables me to talk about what 

802
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,200
I'm doing using maths, right? 
And sometimes that stuff's 

803
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,200
actually way more appropriate 
than language because language 

804
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:47,200
is actually, you know, it's a 
whole other kettle of fish there

805
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,900
as to whether or not, some of 
these things are very hard to 

806
00:43:49,900 --> 00:43:51,300
verbalize. 
Verbalize right. 

807
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,300
And but whereas they're very, 
you know, it's very 

808
00:43:54,300 --> 00:43:56,800
straightforward. 
If you can just wrap it in the 

809
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,900
equation and just get once you 
spend a little bit of time, 

810
00:43:58,900 --> 00:44:00,300
learning what the equation 
means, right? 

811
00:44:00,300 --> 00:44:03,600
So, yeah. 
So there's, that's it. 

812
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:08,100
Like, it is, it is tricky and 
there's a lot to it does. 

813
00:44:08,100 --> 00:44:11,400
Require it requires effort from 
everybody and at the present of 

814
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,500
the other person on the other 
end doesn't want to make the 

815
00:44:13,500 --> 00:44:17,200
effort, but there's only so much
you can do to help them learn if

816
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,700
they think that learning is 
transmission of Knowledge from 

817
00:44:19,700 --> 00:44:21,700
me too. 
Amazon is so much. 

818
00:44:21,700 --> 00:44:25,400
I can give them that. 
That works on a few different 

819
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,900
levels as well. 
I mean, for me, like, if I were 

820
00:44:28,900 --> 00:44:31,000
to say something like 
affordances, like I'm 

821
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,500
communicating to you. 
A whole lot of information 

822
00:44:34,500 --> 00:44:38,600
through one word like and I 
began to realize this in like 

823
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,800
religious texts and language, 
right? 

824
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,100
Like if you use a word like 
Calvinism or like, whatever, 

825
00:44:44,100 --> 00:44:48,000
like you're communicating a ton 
of information through one word 

826
00:44:48,100 --> 00:44:52,900
and so it cuts down on On how 
how much you have to go over and

827
00:44:52,900 --> 00:44:56,600
cover, like, you can you can 
then grab something and, and, 

828
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:58,800
like, move with a whole toolkit 
of understanding. 

829
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:03,400
And like, and to me, that's the 
that's where you can't sit 

830
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:04,600
there. 
And just be like, well, I want 

831
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,800
the simplest version of it's 
like, okay, I can maybe give you

832
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:10,600
an analogy and that can a good 
analogy can take you really far.

833
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:12,100
I think, you know, because you 
can. 

834
00:45:12,300 --> 00:45:16,600
And that's, that's where, you 
know, to jump back a little bit 

835
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,300
the way that I began to think 
about. 

836
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,200
Like, when I encounter a 
problem, like, Especially like 

837
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,200
one that we're talking about. 
Like there's so much complexity 

838
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:24,700
there. 
I almost feel like I have to 

839
00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:28,300
take an ecological approach to 
understanding that issue and 

840
00:45:28,300 --> 00:45:31,700
that's where I actually think 
the real power is, is like, this

841
00:45:31,700 --> 00:45:36,200
is something that like Sean. 
I think, you know, of a theme 

842
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,400
that I hear from from, from Sean
Miska. 

843
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,500
So much is like this name should
become your form of life. 

844
00:45:41,500 --> 00:45:45,200
Like when you begin to actually 
become ecological thread through

845
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,400
it, helps you make sense of the 
world a lot more. 

846
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,000
And at least something that for 
me. 

847
00:45:50,100 --> 00:45:56,000
Me personally, like, I've kind 
of helped myself to or came to 

848
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,100
an understanding of like if I 
understand something, I don't 

849
00:45:58,100 --> 00:46:00,400
get to be mad about it. 
Because if I understand 

850
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,300
something, then I have to now 
problem-solve to either become 

851
00:46:04,300 --> 00:46:05,800
more. 
I guess now, to use the 

852
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,100
ecological language, become 
better fitted to this reality 

853
00:46:09,100 --> 00:46:14,700
of, like, what I understand. 
And so that to me, you know, in 

854
00:46:14,700 --> 00:46:18,900
a long security this way is 
like, how I began to like try to

855
00:46:18,900 --> 00:46:20,900
parse through this stuff. 
But like because there are 

856
00:46:20,900 --> 00:46:24,200
certain challenges of like just 
understanding human psychology 

857
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:29,000
of most people because of the 
there's so much information out 

858
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,300
there like the in order to 
function. 

859
00:46:32,500 --> 00:46:35,800
It's easier to grab something 
like a surface level 

860
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:37,300
understanding and to run with 
it. 

861
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,600
And that's where I think like 
the power of ecological 

862
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,700
Dynamics, you could say is like 
you can you can take a very 

863
00:46:42,700 --> 00:46:46,200
surface level understanding and 
run with it and you'll get 

864
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,300
really far. 
Like I mean, I've just seen 

865
00:46:49,300 --> 00:46:52,700
people with Who don't actually 
understand ecological is very 

866
00:46:53,900 --> 00:46:58,000
deeply but they'll they're doing
a lot of live a B's, you know, 

867
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:02,000
facing a pitcher. 
They're blending their training 

868
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,100
like they might do quite a bit 
of strength training to work on 

869
00:47:05,100 --> 00:47:09,300
improving your bat speed. 
But just like you said to me bat

870
00:47:09,300 --> 00:47:12,500
speed is something very similar 
to just Sprint speed. 

871
00:47:12,500 --> 00:47:14,300
Okay, great. 
You can run really fast right 

872
00:47:14,300 --> 00:47:16,500
ahead. 
It does give you now you have 

873
00:47:16,500 --> 00:47:20,300
more action capabilities, but at
the same point, it's not come To

874
00:47:20,300 --> 00:47:23,800
anything game like yet. 
And so, until you've actually 

875
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,600
learned how to harness that 
ability, like, that's because 

876
00:47:28,100 --> 00:47:30,400
the way that I look at is like 
everybody's trying to justify 

877
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,600
their existence because there's,
there's this, there's this 

878
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,600
element of if you don't 
understand what I do you're 

879
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,900
easily fireable. 
And like, that's the, that's the

880
00:47:40,900 --> 00:47:45,600
thing of like, why I understand.
Like, oh, you actually have to 

881
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,800
be able to for somebody because 
of the, the, the way that I like

882
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:54,200
When I was first encountering, 
the ecological approach people 

883
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:58,100
were were like, okay? 
So what then becomes my role as 

884
00:47:58,100 --> 00:48:01,700
a coach, if I'm just sitting 
back and like, creating this 

885
00:48:01,700 --> 00:48:04,900
environment, I sit back and I 
don't say anything like what a 

886
00:48:05,300 --> 00:48:08,800
what am I like? 
I have no job and it's like no 

887
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:13,500
that's not actually true at all.
But one quote that I'd found 

888
00:48:13,500 --> 00:48:17,300
years ago before I ran into the 
ecological approach actually 

889
00:48:17,300 --> 00:48:22,400
resonated really really well. 
To what I think an ecological 

890
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,600
approach is from a constraint 
lead and all this sort of stuff,

891
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:28,100
what you're doing? 
The best leader is one who when 

892
00:48:28,100 --> 00:48:31,000
everything is said and done. 
The people say we did it 

893
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:35,500
ourselves. 
Yeah, and so like if that's true

894
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:39,500
that like when I'm doing my 
stuff really, really well, it's 

895
00:48:39,500 --> 00:48:43,100
almost as if, right? 
I am the, the stagehands for a 

896
00:48:43,100 --> 00:48:47,300
play, like in all the 
behind-the-scenes people like a 

897
00:48:47,300 --> 00:48:50,500
really good production happens 
when you don't know I exist. 

898
00:48:51,100 --> 00:48:54,200
But as soon as as soon as 
everything breaks down like, 

899
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,500
boom, it's like everybody knows 
you exist and like, and so 

900
00:48:57,500 --> 00:49:00,400
that's where I think it gets 
hard to begin to justify to 

901
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,700
other people your Since when 
you're, when you're at your 

902
00:49:04,700 --> 00:49:07,300
best, when people don't notice 
you, yeah. 

903
00:49:07,300 --> 00:49:12,500
And Yeah, but look, I'm fully 
onboard with all of that sort of

904
00:49:12,500 --> 00:49:16,300
idea, but it doesn't pose a bit 
of a quandary as I understand it

905
00:49:16,300 --> 00:49:17,900
in the world of professional 
sports. 

906
00:49:18,100 --> 00:49:22,700
Right? 
Because you if you if you're not

907
00:49:22,700 --> 00:49:27,800
seem to be being the thing, that
is generating the success. 

908
00:49:28,300 --> 00:49:30,900
Then the question will then why 
are you here? 

909
00:49:30,900 --> 00:49:33,900
Seems like a very 
straightforward question to ask 

910
00:49:33,900 --> 00:49:36,300
and like I get that as a 
challenge, right? 

911
00:49:36,300 --> 00:49:42,300
That's a that's a that's a 
that's a very real constraint 

912
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,400
that people are operating under 
two and and and part of the 

913
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:51,900
ecological approach to education
of any kind coaching, physical 

914
00:49:51,900 --> 00:49:55,700
skills and, you know, I try and 
teach as ecologically as I can 

915
00:49:55,700 --> 00:50:00,700
to, and a big chunk of what I do
is not being in charge of 

916
00:50:00,700 --> 00:50:04,000
things, being being a protein, 8
constraining and guiding and 

917
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:08,500
managing but not Not being the 
one responsible for the success 

918
00:50:08,500 --> 00:50:12,600
of the session and yeah, lot of 
coaches. 

919
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:17,200
I've talked to talk about that 
as a thing that they value and 

920
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,600
that they've come to value. 
And it's one of the reasons why 

921
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,100
people who like the ecological 
approach often, like the 

922
00:50:23,100 --> 00:50:25,900
ecological approach is because 
it aligns with that value of 

923
00:50:25,900 --> 00:50:29,200
thinking that their job is to be
a little bit invisible. 

924
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:32,800
Their job is to just be the 
measure of their success is not 

925
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,000
how visible way are the measure 
of their success is, how. 

926
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:36,400
Well. 
Buddy else does. 

927
00:50:37,100 --> 00:50:41,300
That's a, that's a very 
particular, it's a very 

928
00:50:41,300 --> 00:50:45,800
particular value set for an 
educator and it's and it's not 

929
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,000
one that everybody shares for 
lots of reasons. 

930
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,300
And so if you don't have that or
if you live in a world where 

931
00:50:51,300 --> 00:50:55,300
that value set is not value, 
then it's a very real problem 

932
00:50:55,300 --> 00:50:57,200
and it's a thing that comes up a
lot, right? 

933
00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:59,100
There's a need to be able to 
show results. 

934
00:50:59,100 --> 00:51:01,900
I need to be able to show that 
the things that I'm doing are 

935
00:51:02,700 --> 00:51:06,900
producing results. 
And it's, yeah, it's a tricky 

936
00:51:06,900 --> 00:51:10,700
one. 
It's a tricky, one, part of what

937
00:51:10,700 --> 00:51:12,800
we need with, you know, we need 
people in positions who were 

938
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:17,100
doing stuff to be spending more 
time about just talking about 

939
00:51:17,100 --> 00:51:19,100
what they're doing and how 
they're seeing the success. 

940
00:51:19,100 --> 00:51:22,100
So that the we're developing 
ways of talking about what 

941
00:51:22,100 --> 00:51:25,500
counselors succeeding. 
Yeah. 

942
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,100
It's a tricky space to be in and
I absolutely get that as a 

943
00:51:29,107 --> 00:51:32,100
constraint as an obstacle for 
people adopting. 

944
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:35,900
I mean because like when you 
leave, you're talking about like

945
00:51:35,900 --> 00:51:39,000
results like okay. 
I was the one in charge and so I

946
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:42,400
guess I'm responsible for 
everything that then. 

947
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:49,800
Results from it. 
And because they're when you get

948
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,300
into the complexity of it, how 
can you actually really deduce? 

949
00:51:52,300 --> 00:51:54,500
How much of it has to do to, 
which part of the thing that you

950
00:51:54,508 --> 00:51:55,900
did? 
Because if you're doing multiple

951
00:51:55,900 --> 00:51:58,700
things and lots of things, like,
how can you pin it back on? 

952
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,800
I mean, unless you have a theory
to kind of guide you towards and

953
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:04,900
highlight what things you think 
are important. 

954
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:07,500
I mean, because we're this is it
right? 

955
00:52:07,500 --> 00:52:09,200
This is one of the interesting 
things that's been developing 

956
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:11,600
alongside all kind of the 
theoretical rationale from the 

957
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:15,800
ecological approach and Flying 
that, that sort of mechanistic, 

958
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:18,100
understanding of what perception
action and learning and skill. 

959
00:52:18,100 --> 00:52:21,200
Acquisition, our clients Sports 
big logical, Dynamics, one of 

960
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:22,900
the other interesting things 
that's been developing in 

961
00:52:22,900 --> 00:52:26,200
parallel with that is develop an
ecological ways of talking about

962
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:30,000
the activity of operating within
that space, right? 

963
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:32,700
So, Marcus Allen and Carl woods 
and Keith, David's, obviously 

964
00:52:32,700 --> 00:52:34,400
and lots of other people and 
change form. 

965
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:37,600
And things are writing papers 
that are about. 

966
00:52:38,700 --> 00:52:43,100
What it's like to be a person 
operating in most cases and what

967
00:52:43,100 --> 00:52:46,600
counts as succeeding and not 
succeeding. 

968
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:48,300
And so a big chunk of those 
papers. 

969
00:52:48,300 --> 00:52:50,000
One of the interesting things 
about those papers is that 

970
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:54,300
they're busy having to develop a
vocabulary for articulating, 

971
00:52:54,300 --> 00:52:58,200
what counsel success, right? 
Because the success is coming, 

972
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:00,400
is this happening in lots of 
different ways? 

973
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,300
And the other thing about, of 
course, is that one of the other

974
00:53:03,300 --> 00:53:06,400
key elements of the ecological 
approach is that frankly, the 

975
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:08,300
coach is not the sole 
determinant of success. 

976
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:09,500
Yes. 
All right. 

977
00:53:09,500 --> 00:53:11,100
Like I was saying about 
education, right? 

978
00:53:11,300 --> 00:53:13,700
You know, I could be the 
greatest teacher in the world, 

979
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:16,100
right? 
But if you're not listening then

980
00:53:16,100 --> 00:53:18,800
I can't help. 
You know. 

981
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:23,600
So there is so part of the 
success is success or failure on

982
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:25,600
where those things are coming 
from is distributed across the 

983
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,700
entire institution, across the 
team, across the academy across 

984
00:53:28,700 --> 00:53:32,200
the across the institution, that
that is supporting the players 

985
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:36,800
Etc, right? 
If all your players are I don't 

986
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:40,200
know, fold your players are 
tired because they're working 

987
00:53:40,700 --> 00:53:42,700
two jobs in order to be able to 
do something. 

988
00:53:42,700 --> 00:53:44,100
Then that like there's only so 
much. 

989
00:53:44,100 --> 00:53:46,600
You can coach pass that food 
like as a dumb example, right? 

990
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:48,900
But these things are you know, 
so this is this is where you're 

991
00:53:48,900 --> 00:53:50,300
trying to get to this 
complexity, right? 

992
00:53:50,300 --> 00:53:53,200
Complexity is the deal and 
that's the other nice thing. 

993
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:55,400
I'd get steps that point you 
were saying earlier about one of

994
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:57,100
the things that I certainly, 
like, I think you were saying, 

995
00:53:57,100 --> 00:53:58,200
as well. 
One of the things I like about 

996
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:02,500
the ecological approach is that 
it is at its heart, a brave 

997
00:54:02,500 --> 00:54:07,800
attempt to front up to the 
Actual complexity of the actual 

998
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:11,600
thing that you're trying to 
study orange intervene on and 

999
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:16,500
it's an attempt to, to meet what
you're, what you're interacting 

1000
00:54:16,500 --> 00:54:21,200
with on its own terms rather 
than to take it and to jam 

1001
00:54:21,300 --> 00:54:23,600
through the tools of your 
general linear model, because 

1002
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:24,900
that's what you've got access 
to. 

1003
00:54:25,100 --> 00:54:29,000
So it's funny actually sort of 
historically and academically 

1004
00:54:29,500 --> 00:54:33,800
the ecological approach has been
a place where, you know, we will

1005
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:35,400
run Stetson to our and overs and
stuff. 

1006
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:37,100
Like that. 
But, you know, to be honest 

1007
00:54:37,100 --> 00:54:41,800
mostly what we end up doing is 
internet because a big chunk of 

1008
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,600
our training is about trying to 
front up to the complexity of 

1009
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,400
stuff. 
People are ecologically, minded,

1010
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:52,900
Biden, dynamically, motivated, 
Tinder, try and build analysis, 

1011
00:54:52,900 --> 00:54:56,900
tools that suit or go and find 
analysis tools that soup the 

1012
00:54:56,900 --> 00:55:00,100
complexity of the problem, 
rather than studying the problem

1013
00:55:00,100 --> 00:55:02,200
and trying to jam it into the 
analysis tool that you know, how

1014
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,000
to do. 
And that's again a thing that 

1015
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,400
makes us really stick out 
academic, right? 

1016
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:10,400
And but it and it becomes a 
problem because we're the only 

1017
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:13,300
ones using only people, you 
know, we're doing things like 

1018
00:55:13,300 --> 00:55:17,400
uncontrolled manifold analysis 
and You know, fractal this and 

1019
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:19,900
differential that and see what 
everybody's getting very sort of

1020
00:55:19,900 --> 00:55:23,200
stressed and that gets back to 
the vocabulary issue row. 

1021
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:26,900
And again part of our job has to
be in people to jobs, are trying

1022
00:55:26,900 --> 00:55:29,200
to do this with, trying to bring
people along some of the reason 

1023
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:33,900
why we're doing this is because 
but I think you're I think I 

1024
00:55:33,908 --> 00:55:37,100
think trying to front up to the 
complexity of that is input of 

1025
00:55:37,100 --> 00:55:38,100
what it is. 
You're trying to do is 

1026
00:55:38,100 --> 00:55:42,000
important. 
That end and one of the nice 

1027
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:44,100
things that's been happening 
over the last 10 years, is that 

1028
00:55:44,100 --> 00:55:45,400
there's a lot of tools out 
there. 

1029
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:49,000
There's there's tools for 
handling data that friends up to

1030
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:53,000
the complexity of data. 
There is vocabulary to Lego 

1031
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:54,700
sayings like this. 
I'm just thinking about some 

1032
00:55:54,700 --> 00:55:58,200
recent stuff from Marcus Allen 
and Jimmy Vaughn, you know, 

1033
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:02,600
they're building a conceptual 
tool box right there. 

1034
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,900
Building ways of talking about 
these things. 

1035
00:56:05,500 --> 00:56:06,800
Right? 
Because some of those ways of 

1036
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:09,600
talking didn't exist before 
because they weren't required, 

1037
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:12,300
is no one was talking about the 
full complexity and what, 

1038
00:56:12,300 --> 00:56:14,700
they're a big chunk of a lot of 
that sort of work is trying to 

1039
00:56:14,707 --> 00:56:18,300
do is build a conceptual tool 
box, but then enables you to 

1040
00:56:18,300 --> 00:56:21,300
have conversations to tell 
people what it is that you're 

1041
00:56:21,300 --> 00:56:23,700
actually doing. 
And you can start having 

1042
00:56:23,700 --> 00:56:26,200
conversations about whether or 
not you think it's working. 

1043
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:31,700
Yeah, so one thing that to jump 
back a little bit the that you 

1044
00:56:31,707 --> 00:56:35,100
touched on was the measurement 
part 1. 

1045
00:56:35,300 --> 00:56:37,400
Thing that I took from David 
Snowden. 

1046
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:41,000
And his can even framework is 
that it's because of, it's a 

1047
00:56:41,008 --> 00:56:45,300
complex system, it's better to 
measure the direction of travel 

1048
00:56:45,500 --> 00:56:49,200
than it is to measure. 
Like, are we getting to XYZ 

1049
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:53,700
number and, and so like, to me 
it's in service of whatever your

1050
00:56:53,700 --> 00:56:55,800
main goal is. 
And so, for example, in 

1051
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:57,200
baseball, you have to ask the 
question. 

1052
00:56:57,200 --> 00:56:59,600
Well, how like, what are we 
trying to do here? 

1053
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:03,600
If the goal is to win a baseball
game, you know, because it mean 

1054
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:05,100
because it's at what level are 
you breaking? 

1055
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,300
Down the analysis because 
everybody wants to win the 

1056
00:57:08,300 --> 00:57:10,200
championship, right? 
Well in order to do that you 

1057
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:13,600
have to win games but you only 
have to win enough games, to get

1058
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:15,200
you to the dance. 
You don't have to win all of 

1059
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:16,500
them. 
You just have to win enough 

1060
00:57:17,100 --> 00:57:19,500
because like the team that has 
the best record in the regular 

1061
00:57:19,500 --> 00:57:21,300
season. 
At least in baseball, does not 

1062
00:57:21,300 --> 00:57:24,000
is not, it's not indicative that
you're going to win the World 

1063
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:28,000
Series. 
Yeah and that's I mean Robert. 

1064
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:29,900
I guess you could, you could 
speak more to that. 

1065
00:57:29,900 --> 00:57:32,700
How often the team with the most
wins actually is the one that 

1066
00:57:32,700 --> 00:57:35,100
wins the World Series that 
people have been been? 

1067
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:39,300
Complaining about that actually 
more recently that like relative

1068
00:57:39,300 --> 00:57:43,200
to other sports baseball tends, 
not to have the best teams 

1069
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:49,000
playing in the final game, which
I don't, I don't hate that. 

1070
00:57:49,500 --> 00:57:52,800
But it does if it's an 
interesting outcome of the of 

1071
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:55,300
the selection process, the 
selection process selected, the 

1072
00:57:55,300 --> 00:57:58,200
best team, and the best team 
isn't necessarily the ones of 

1073
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:00,100
all the best players, but it's 
the one that was able to 

1074
00:58:00,100 --> 00:58:05,500
consistently, do the work on the
day and across, An 

1075
00:58:05,500 --> 00:58:07,800
extraordinarily large number of 
games, right. 

1076
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:10,500
So there's there's your 
selection pressure. 

1077
00:58:10,500 --> 00:58:12,200
If you want a different outcome,
you have to change your 

1078
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:14,400
selection pressure. 
You have to change the structure

1079
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:17,500
of the Sea of the regular see? 
Yeah, absolutely. 

1080
00:58:17,500 --> 00:58:20,700
I mean, on the second end of it,
in terms of just here 

1081
00:58:20,700 --> 00:58:24,500
probability, like, given how 
baseball is constructed, you 

1082
00:58:24,500 --> 00:58:26,300
have your three games here at 
wild cards. 

1083
00:58:26,300 --> 00:58:28,300
You have your five game 
Division, Series seven-game 

1084
00:58:28,300 --> 00:58:31,200
Championships World Series, 
like, there's that element of 

1085
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,300
Randomness within that 
probability to say that the 

1086
00:58:34,300 --> 00:58:38,100
weaker team. 
A say is more likely to win 

1087
00:58:38,100 --> 00:58:42,800
because if you do it, whereas 
its, you know, like football 

1088
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:45,000
where it's just one game more 
often. 

1089
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,300
Not the better team will win 
because in just one game. 

1090
00:58:48,300 --> 00:58:52,500
But since the sample is 
increase, either 3 5 or 7 there,

1091
00:58:52,500 --> 00:58:54,800
is that element of Randomness in
the probability? 

1092
00:58:55,900 --> 00:58:59,200
Okay, so I want to own a touch 
on the probably like the 

1093
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:04,300
randomness probability stuff 
because To me when you get into 

1094
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:07,500
your because there's underlying 
presuppositions because a lot of

1095
00:59:07,500 --> 00:59:09,900
people take the randomness 
probability and then they try to

1096
00:59:09,900 --> 00:59:15,100
translate it across like those 
large datasets in the sense of 

1097
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:18,600
okay well when a guy is on a hot
streak or whatever well that's 

1098
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:21,200
just luck. 
It's like well is it really? 

1099
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:23,500
Because if you if you go with 
that assumption then you're not 

1100
00:59:23,500 --> 00:59:27,700
going to look for any underlying
mechanism that is causing that 

1101
00:59:27,700 --> 00:59:31,600
in the question is is to me an 
ecological approach explains. 

1102
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:34,800
Why guy is hot? 
And then the question is, when 

1103
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:37,400
we're wearing a cold slump or 
whatever it is like how do we 

1104
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:39,700
get you back into that? 
And then there are other, there 

1105
00:59:39,700 --> 00:59:42,400
are other things to of like, 
well, he's just hitting it 

1106
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:45,100
really hard and he's just 
getting really unlucky because 

1107
00:59:45,100 --> 00:59:48,100
it's going to guys are like, 
well, maybe we need to train him

1108
00:59:48,100 --> 00:59:53,200
to hit it, not at guys. 
Like and if you don't, if you, 

1109
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:55,800
if you going with this like luck
assumption, that hitting is just

1110
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:59,600
luck because it's hard, which it
is and I don't think maybe you 

1111
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:03,900
can hit the ball with precision.
Asian to to wherever you want on

1112
01:00:03,900 --> 01:00:07,900
the field, I think you there's 
enough evidence to demonstrate 

1113
01:00:07,900 --> 01:00:11,800
that, you can hit it to an area 
of the field, you know, like you

1114
01:00:11,808 --> 01:00:15,500
given like I mean and so to me 
this is where your your 

1115
01:00:15,500 --> 01:00:20,000
underlying assumptions will 
drive. 

1116
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:25,200
What you think is possible? 
Yeah, especially bicycle 

1117
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:28,000
vanities is, if if there wasn't 
an element of skill involved it 

1118
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,700
wouldn't be different type of 
differently. 

1119
01:00:30,700 --> 01:00:32,400
Skilled. 
No, batsman, Rye. 

1120
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:36,100
Like people would all basically 
on average over a season end up 

1121
01:00:36,100 --> 01:00:37,900
with about the same batting 
right now ranking. 

1122
01:00:39,300 --> 01:00:41,700
So what there's D? 
I mean, clearly something going 

1123
01:00:41,700 --> 01:00:43,100
on. 
We're different. 

1124
01:00:43,100 --> 01:00:45,000
People are better able to do 
different things. 

1125
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:47,700
Yeah, for sure. 
And as a psychologist, as soon 

1126
01:00:47,700 --> 01:00:52,000
as you see any sort of pattern 
like that, you know, as a 

1127
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:53,600
scientist, the first question is
0. 

1128
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:56,900
Why is it? 
What's pulling you away from 

1129
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:00,200
everything being being even 
there must be something going on

1130
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:02,700
with, you know, look this team 
work trying to figure out what 

1131
01:01:02,700 --> 01:01:05,600
that is, right? 
Part of the problem is, of 

1132
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:09,000
course, it's focused on things 
like it's focused on boring. 

1133
01:01:09,100 --> 01:01:12,300
If like visual Acuity, or 
reaction time or all those kinds

1134
01:01:12,300 --> 01:01:13,900
of things where it actually 
needs to be. 

1135
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:17,300
What we actually know is, the 
behavior is behavior emerges 

1136
01:01:17,300 --> 01:01:19,800
from the collective of 
constraints that are operating 

1137
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:22,200
on you, with the moment. 
Some of those you bring with 

1138
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:25,500
you, some of those are imposed 
on you and it's how they play 

1139
01:01:25,500 --> 01:01:28,500
out over time, right? 
So as you're trying to do the 

1140
01:01:28,500 --> 01:01:30,400
thing that's, that's where 
Behavior comes from. 

1141
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:34,900
So, Yeah, the big problem has 
always been going to look for 

1142
01:01:34,900 --> 01:01:37,800
that enduring feature of the 
person that you might be able to

1143
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:40,700
improve, right? 
Whereas it's obviously more 

1144
01:01:40,700 --> 01:01:44,300
complicated than that. 
All right, Baker. 

1145
01:01:44,300 --> 01:01:47,700
You been very silent for for 
most of this. 

1146
01:01:47,700 --> 01:01:49,100
I'm curious. 
If you have anything that you 

1147
01:01:49,100 --> 01:01:53,200
would like to add and you, how 
you would like to perturb the 

1148
01:01:53,700 --> 01:01:56,300
discussion. 
Now, I'm going to join me 

1149
01:01:56,300 --> 01:01:57,900
pastor. 
This has been a bit of great 

1150
01:01:57,900 --> 01:02:01,000
conversation but to me like one 
thing I've been thinking about a

1151
01:02:01,008 --> 01:02:03,200
time as you guys talk. 
And I've been thinking a lot 

1152
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:07,000
about this is the idea of like a
skill, first like action 

1153
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:09,300
capacity or capability. 
Whichever way you want to frame 

1154
01:02:09,300 --> 01:02:10,700
that because that's a 
conversation. 

1155
01:02:10,700 --> 01:02:14,400
I've been having a lot with a 
lot of my co-workers is a 

1156
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,200
rebuilding skills which to me 
that's more of an interaction 

1157
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:19,000
process. 
So we're actually interacting 

1158
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:21,600
with the environment versus just
like this capacity or this 

1159
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:24,100
capability. 
We're hitting the ball hard is 

1160
01:02:24,100 --> 01:02:27,400
probably more of that versus 
skill is actually a live in an 

1161
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:32,000
environment with Fielder's with 
the header and actually doing 

1162
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:35,300
what you want to do which is get
hit scan on base score runs and 

1163
01:02:35,300 --> 01:02:38,200
kind of bridging that Gap where 
I think the capacity or the 

1164
01:02:38,207 --> 01:02:40,600
capability is easy to measure 
skill. 

1165
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:43,200
On the other hand has it been 
Quite as easy to measure an 

1166
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:46,200
oven, me being the pitching, 
space of the same thing where I 

1167
01:02:46,207 --> 01:02:50,500
think the majority of the time 
we'll spend working on throwing 

1168
01:02:50,500 --> 01:02:53,300
harder, working on throwing 
different pitches with better 

1169
01:02:53,300 --> 01:02:57,200
metrics based on whatever model.
We're chasing verse is actually 

1170
01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:00,800
skill where we put it into 
context and actually it only 

1171
01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:02,800
lives within the environment. 
Are we getting out? 

1172
01:03:03,100 --> 01:03:06,000
Are we throwing pitches that is 
producing out and preventing 

1173
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:09,400
runs which what we're trying to 
do and trying to get two more 

1174
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:11,800
measurements on that front. 
That's been a lot of my 

1175
01:03:11,900 --> 01:03:15,200
Headspace not that I'm good with
the analytic side. 

1176
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:17,100
But that's what I've been 
thinking a lot about. 

1177
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:21,700
Yeah, the metrics thing. 
Yeah, it's a really interesting 

1178
01:03:21,700 --> 01:03:27,200
and challenging problem is 
coming up with metrics metrics 

1179
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:28,500
or skill. 
That's a really nice way to 

1180
01:03:28,500 --> 01:03:31,300
frame it actually and that's 
definitely honestly, it's like 

1181
01:03:31,300 --> 01:03:33,600
it has back to what I was saying
earlier about analytics and 

1182
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:35,800
thinking about what to do with 
all those numbers. 

1183
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:38,700
So it's definitely been on my 
mind as well because it is. 

1184
01:03:39,700 --> 01:03:42,700
It is hard, right? 
I can, I can measure this, you 

1185
01:03:42,700 --> 01:03:44,500
know, you can measure a pitch 
speed and see if that. 

1186
01:03:44,500 --> 01:03:46,900
Number goes up, that's really 
easy. 

1187
01:03:47,300 --> 01:03:52,500
But you know, measuring whether 
or not the pitcher, threw a 

1188
01:03:52,500 --> 01:03:54,100
pitch. 
That was the kind of pitch that 

1189
01:03:54,100 --> 01:03:56,000
was likely to get. 
That better out. 

1190
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:59,800
Is a more complicated question. 
It's the more interesting 

1191
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:02,100
question, right? 
Like when it comes to, you know,

1192
01:04:02,300 --> 01:04:05,100
council's decision making, you 
know, what's a good decision or,

1193
01:04:05,100 --> 01:04:08,100
sometimes it's not the fastball,
that gets the player at it's 

1194
01:04:08,100 --> 01:04:11,500
the, it's the slow one. 
All the curvy model, the 

1195
01:04:11,500 --> 01:04:13,600
spinning one or something, 
right? 

1196
01:04:14,100 --> 01:04:17,200
So what constitutes a good 
decision, you're right. 

1197
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:21,400
I think is a very sort of a hide
its high dimensional problem, 

1198
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:22,600
right? 
There's, you have to be a, you 

1199
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:25,100
have to measure and assess quite
a few different things. 

1200
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:27,900
And part of the equation is not 
remember it's not just up to the

1201
01:04:27,900 --> 01:04:29,900
picture. 
Part of it is up to how the 

1202
01:04:29,900 --> 01:04:33,500
batter is able and their ability
to, you know, the picture could 

1203
01:04:33,500 --> 01:04:37,400
just produce an absolute 
beautiful pitch. 

1204
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:41,200
That's everything's perfect. 
And you know, right better on 

1205
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:43,700
the right day, puts it over the 
fence because that's just where 

1206
01:04:43,700 --> 01:04:45,000
they were living in that 
particular. 

1207
01:04:45,300 --> 01:04:48,900
Right? 
So and so does that count as a 

1208
01:04:48,900 --> 01:04:51,300
bad pitch? 
Well, yes. 

1209
01:04:51,300 --> 01:04:54,300
On one dimension but also maybe 
not on some other dimensions. 

1210
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:56,400
And so you have to start 
thinking about these things in 

1211
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:58,800
the yeah. 
So yes, right. 

1212
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:02,200
That, that issue of of 
developing metrics of skill. 

1213
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:05,500
I like, I say, I'm optimistic in
the sense that I think it's 

1214
01:05:05,500 --> 01:05:08,100
possible. 
And I think that the systems 

1215
01:05:08,100 --> 01:05:12,200
that are being produced right 
now to generate metrics can be 

1216
01:05:12,200 --> 01:05:14,600
adapted. 
I think the data is there to ask

1217
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:17,600
more sensible questions on the 
really am optimistic possible 

1218
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:21,600
but it's hard to figure out 
exactly what the question is and

1219
01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:23,600
it's especially difficult given 
that what? 

1220
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:27,300
Yeah, what counts as skilled. 
This is a complicated one. 

1221
01:05:27,300 --> 01:05:29,900
So so for example I'm so I'm 
just been working on a paper. 

1222
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:34,100
So it's some data I collect go 
to while back on targeted, 

1223
01:05:34,100 --> 01:05:36,700
long-distance throwing actually,
and I use it too. 

1224
01:05:37,300 --> 01:05:39,200
Holden's perception. 
Perception of Target 

1225
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:42,900
affordances. 
And we're using this analysis, 

1226
01:05:42,900 --> 01:05:45,500
called uncontrolled manifold 
analysis, which is just it's a 

1227
01:05:45,508 --> 01:05:48,800
mathematical way of decomposing 
variability and performance. 

1228
01:05:49,700 --> 01:05:54,300
And the basic idea is that. 
So I asked you, I measured you 

1229
01:05:54,300 --> 01:05:57,600
throwing a tennis ball to hit a 
Target 20 times. 

1230
01:05:57,600 --> 01:05:59,800
And I measure, you know, measure
various drawings angles and 

1231
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:02,500
things like that might get you 
to do, effectively the same 

1232
01:06:02,500 --> 01:06:07,800
thing 20 times in a row But of 
course, what we know is you 

1233
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:10,200
don't actually ever quite do the
same thing. 

1234
01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:12,900
You it's repetition without 
repetition as the rule, right? 

1235
01:06:12,900 --> 01:06:16,600
So, you'll produce basically the
same through, but it will never 

1236
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:19,100
be exactly the same throat 
because it cannot be. 

1237
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:21,100
That's just, that's just one of 
the rules. 

1238
01:06:21,300 --> 01:06:24,200
And also for, you know, for lots
of reasons because of the ways, 

1239
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:27,800
skilled action moves redundancy 
and all those kinds of things 

1240
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:31,700
that are going on in the system.
There's always variability. 

1241
01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:34,600
But that variability is 
organized around a kind of a 

1242
01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:38,700
centralite central kind of goal 
of what you're trying to 

1243
01:06:38,700 --> 01:06:40,400
achieve. 
So there's some controlled 

1244
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:43,300
manifold analysis is just a 
mathematical way of 

1245
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:44,800
mathematically. 
Characterizing. 

1246
01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:48,900
What you think the goal of the 
skill is trying to achieve And 

1247
01:06:48,900 --> 01:06:51,700
then analyzing the variability 
in that movement has two 

1248
01:06:51,700 --> 01:06:53,700
components. 
One components are variability 

1249
01:06:53,700 --> 01:06:56,300
that stops you from it, 
achieving that goal and 

1250
01:06:56,300 --> 01:06:59,300
variability that doesn't stop 
you from achieving that and 

1251
01:06:59,300 --> 01:07:01,200
variability that doesn't stop 
you from achieving. 

1252
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:04,000
That goal is just kind of its 
that's kind of considered to be 

1253
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:05,800
good variability. 
Well that's the variability that

1254
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:09,200
doesn't get in the way that's 
just that's just this redundant 

1255
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:12,700
system coping with minor 
variations and what it's trying 

1256
01:07:12,700 --> 01:07:15,700
to achieve is a function of, you
knew your balance is slightly 

1257
01:07:15,700 --> 01:07:17,400
different. 
You started from a slightly 

1258
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:18,400
different position. 
Etc. 

1259
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:19,900
That's all healthy. 
That's good. 

1260
01:07:19,900 --> 01:07:23,800
That's adaptive, right? 
And so one of the things I like 

1261
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:27,500
about this analysis it turns out
the details of exactly how you 

1262
01:07:27,500 --> 01:07:29,700
implement everything, 
interesting Lee complicated. 

1263
01:07:29,700 --> 01:07:33,300
But the basic idea is first of 
all it's trying to front out to 

1264
01:07:33,300 --> 01:07:36,600
the complexity of the situation.
It's an analysis method that was

1265
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:40,600
designed to try and fully front 
up to the problem of what we're 

1266
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:43,700
trying to study namely that I 
can take all those don't 

1267
01:07:43,700 --> 01:07:46,500
measurements and computer an 
average and then compute 

1268
01:07:46,900 --> 01:07:49,000
deviation from that average. 
Judge, but that average is 

1269
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:52,000
meaningless, right? 
Interesting isn't. 

1270
01:07:52,700 --> 01:07:55,900
What did people do on average? 
The interesting thing is, how is

1271
01:07:55,900 --> 01:07:57,500
the variability in the movement,
organized? 

1272
01:07:57,500 --> 01:07:58,800
That's quite an interesting 
question. 

1273
01:08:00,500 --> 01:08:04,100
So what you end up with is if 
you get, as people get better at

1274
01:08:04,100 --> 01:08:06,700
producing these throws more and 
more of the very, there's always

1275
01:08:06,700 --> 01:08:08,800
variability. 
So you have some amount of 

1276
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:12,600
variability as you get better 
more and more of the higher and 

1277
01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:15,600
higher proportion of that 
variability, lives within the 

1278
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:18,000
uncontrolled mental lives within
the space, where it doesn't 

1279
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:21,399
affect the outcome and 
variability, that does affect 

1280
01:08:21,399 --> 01:08:25,700
the outcome, you're skilled. 
Your skill development is around

1281
01:08:25,700 --> 01:08:29,399
organizing a movement so that 
that variability doesn't happen 

1282
01:08:29,399 --> 01:08:37,500
anymore. so, There's the right. 
So once on a minute you're 

1283
01:08:37,500 --> 01:08:41,899
trying to develop some measures 
and metrics to get a sense of 

1284
01:08:41,899 --> 01:08:44,600
how skillful was a given 
movement, right? 

1285
01:08:44,899 --> 01:08:48,500
And the movement is skillful is 
if the on this account is if the

1286
01:08:48,500 --> 01:08:50,800
variability in that movement 
that you can't get away from, if

1287
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:52,500
that the variability is 
organized. 

1288
01:08:52,500 --> 01:08:56,399
So as to make it so that you 
still achieve the goal, that's 

1289
01:08:56,399 --> 01:08:58,700
purposeful, that's intentional, 
that's flexibility. 

1290
01:08:58,700 --> 01:09:02,000
That's adaptability right, that,
that variability is good at. 

1291
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:04,100
So now we need to cope a little 
moment to moment variation. 

1292
01:09:04,300 --> 01:09:07,899
Stuff. 
So, what you do is you, if you 

1293
01:09:07,899 --> 01:09:10,800
measure that and you're good, 
variability is going out, then 

1294
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:14,700
what you've got potentially as a
metric that tells you a little 

1295
01:09:14,700 --> 01:09:18,100
bit of something about skill as 
you were talking about. 

1296
01:09:18,100 --> 01:09:22,500
As now, the details of that it 
gets for a complicated, you 

1297
01:09:22,500 --> 01:09:26,000
know, the max isn't that have, 
but it's fiddly to measure and 

1298
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:28,500
there are constraints in terms 
of how much you can do in terms 

1299
01:09:28,500 --> 01:09:30,399
of making about, and that's hard
to care a pro. 

1300
01:09:30,399 --> 01:09:32,500
Like, you know, I've got people 
throwing tennis balls to a 

1301
01:09:32,500 --> 01:09:35,300
static Target, right? 
And I can characterize the 

1302
01:09:35,300 --> 01:09:40,500
details of the static Target. 
Or if I had that Target moving 

1303
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:43,399
mind control manifold analysis. 
Mathematically would get 

1304
01:09:43,700 --> 01:09:47,600
complicated, right? 
But at least in principle There 

1305
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:53,700
are ways of trying to take the 
kind of data and ask interrogate

1306
01:09:53,700 --> 01:09:57,800
it with skill based questions 
rather than and skill. 

1307
01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:00,000
Based questions are processed 
questions. 

1308
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:03,600
Not did you throw the ball or 
how fast did you throw the ball?

1309
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:06,500
But how did you get there? 
All right. 

1310
01:10:07,500 --> 01:10:10,300
And that and the the annoying 
thing about those process based 

1311
01:10:10,300 --> 01:10:12,600
questions is because of 
redundancy and things like that.

1312
01:10:12,600 --> 01:10:14,200
There is no single correct 
answer. 

1313
01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:17,700
There's no correct form. 
There are various There's 

1314
01:10:17,700 --> 01:10:19,500
there's techniques that have 
better than other techniques, 

1315
01:10:19,500 --> 01:10:21,100
right? 
My baseball throwing techniques 

1316
01:10:21,100 --> 01:10:24,400
probably not that good relative 
to someone who's been practicing

1317
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:27,800
for also, there is the out of 
all the range of possible things

1318
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:30,000
I can do with my arm only some 
of them are good at pitching a 

1319
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:33,000
baseball right? 
See there are issues around that

1320
01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:38,000
but within that space there's a 
lot of wiggle room around what 

1321
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:40,800
counts as a good patch and part 
of what counts as a good 

1322
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:42,400
pictures. 
What are you trying to achieve 

1323
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:49,200
with that pitch? 
And so All these quick rate that

1324
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:51,900
quiz basically, the question you
were asking about metrics of 

1325
01:10:51,900 --> 01:10:55,500
skill as a really good question.
It's a really important 

1326
01:10:55,500 --> 01:10:57,200
question. 
It's a thing that's been really 

1327
01:10:57,200 --> 01:11:03,600
much on my mind as I've been 
trying to use this new CM method

1328
01:11:04,100 --> 01:11:08,800
as a metric of skill, 
specifically skilled interaction

1329
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:11,600
and put still perception and 
interaction engagement with the 

1330
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:13,300
affordances of the target to be 
head. 

1331
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:16,600
So it's there. 
The possibilities. 

1332
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:18,900
Are there the tools are there? 
We're getting there. 

1333
01:11:18,900 --> 01:11:24,600
There's there's ways of going at
this and I think that it's worth

1334
01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:28,500
doing, but it is hard and at the
end of the day I couldn't tell 

1335
01:11:28,500 --> 01:11:32,000
you what, constituted a good 
throw so I'm not I'm not a Point

1336
01:11:32,100 --> 01:11:37,300
entirely, sure what this data 
would do to change the coaches 

1337
01:11:37,300 --> 01:11:39,500
behavior for example, and change
what the coach of it. 

1338
01:11:39,500 --> 01:11:42,400
Now, I'm not saying that that 
that doesn't exist. 

1339
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:44,100
I just don't know what that 
would look like right now 

1340
01:11:44,100 --> 01:11:45,900
because it's more complicated. 
You can't. 

1341
01:11:45,900 --> 01:11:49,700
It's not just about you need 
your player to throw faster. 

1342
01:11:49,700 --> 01:11:52,000
It's you need your player to 
show. 

1343
01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:55,500
A different kind of adaptability
and that's how you can't 

1344
01:11:55,500 --> 01:11:57,300
verbally. 
Tell someone how to do that, 

1345
01:11:57,300 --> 01:11:58,300
right? 
This is again where the 

1346
01:11:58,300 --> 01:12:01,000
constraints based approach, I 
think really stuff to kick in. 

1347
01:12:01,500 --> 01:12:05,100
Is because that variability what
constitutes good variability is 

1348
01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:09,200
is the is the variability as the
arm moves through space? 

1349
01:12:09,900 --> 01:12:13,700
Is that successfully navigating 
the constraints that are 

1350
01:12:13,700 --> 01:12:15,700
currently on offer. 
That's effectively the question,

1351
01:12:15,700 --> 01:12:17,300
right? 
So if you want to change how 

1352
01:12:17,300 --> 01:12:20,000
that variability is organized, 
the actually the only way to do 

1353
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:22,700
it is to alter the constraints 
and see what happens. 

1354
01:12:23,100 --> 01:12:25,200
So the constraints based 
methodology is actually the only

1355
01:12:25,200 --> 01:12:30,700
way to tackle this potential 
skill based question, can't lick

1356
01:12:30,700 --> 01:12:33,200
it, it's not At all clear that 
you could verbally and 

1357
01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:36,400
structural way or you know, to 
doing that etcetera. 

1358
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:39,100
So but it's harder. 
Absolutely. 

1359
01:12:39,100 --> 01:12:40,900
It's harder. 
I don't know what that like, 

1360
01:12:40,900 --> 01:12:43,000
it's not like I couldn't turn 
that into something. 

1361
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:44,600
I could sell somebody. 
Right. 

1362
01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:50,400
I guess I'm as you can see it 
for me a list if we're to go to 

1363
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:52,000
the Practical. 
Because I think that's that's 

1364
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:56,600
been some of the The criticism 
is like, oh, this is all Theory.

1365
01:12:56,600 --> 01:12:58,600
The salt area. 
Well, to me, I think you can 

1366
01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:00,300
take that what you just said and
make it practical. 

1367
01:13:00,300 --> 01:13:04,800
Because I don't know Andrea, if 
you seen the logo that I use for

1368
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:07,900
this podcast, it's it's trying 
to represent the uncontrolled 

1369
01:13:07,900 --> 01:13:13,000
manifold analysis, but I didn't 
quite get enough dots off the 

1370
01:13:13,008 --> 01:13:16,200
line. 
But anyways, my my thought there

1371
01:13:16,200 --> 01:13:19,100
because it to me, I've seen the 
potential of this from, from the

1372
01:13:19,100 --> 01:13:21,200
very beginning. 
And like, now, that I've been 

1373
01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:23,300
thinking about it a little bit 
more as you're talking there. 

1374
01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:29,100
To me the outcome that you would
measure it against is out, like,

1375
01:13:29,100 --> 01:13:32,000
it doesn't move you towards an 
out State. 

1376
01:13:32,300 --> 01:13:34,500
And this, that that last piece 
makes it a little bit more 

1377
01:13:34,500 --> 01:13:37,100
complicated like, does it, is it
moving you towards and out 

1378
01:13:37,100 --> 01:13:39,300
state? 
But the way that I conceptually 

1379
01:13:39,300 --> 01:13:42,800
understand it is that it just 
includes more data points. 

1380
01:13:43,300 --> 01:13:47,600
So as I understand to like, when
you're doing an uncontrolled 

1381
01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:50,800
manifold analysis, you are, 
you're constrained in terms of 

1382
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:52,200
what you're looking at. 
So, you might actually have to 

1383
01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:54,800
do multiple ones. 
If you want to get a better 

1384
01:13:54,800 --> 01:13:58,900
order to see more of the reality
of what's going on, and so, in 

1385
01:13:58,900 --> 01:14:02,000
this scenario, probably, you 
might have to have a few like, 

1386
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:05,800
because, like, in baseball as 
you progress through the count, 

1387
01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:09,900
things change. 
And so like, you know, Robert 

1388
01:14:09,900 --> 01:14:13,000
Robert will do different sort of
analysis that will show you the 

1389
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:17,000
changes as the count progresses.
And so similarly to me, I think 

1390
01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:18,400
that's that's how you would 
build this. 

1391
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:21,500
But you had, you would have a 
top-line thing that would give 

1392
01:14:21,500 --> 01:14:24,900
you because really what you're 
looking for because to me as I'm

1393
01:14:24,900 --> 01:14:26,900
thinking about this even from an
ecological approach like I'm 

1394
01:14:26,900 --> 01:14:30,900
looking for something that is 
specifying enough to then pull 

1395
01:14:30,900 --> 01:14:36,600
me a layer deeper into more and 
more specifying but like Because

1396
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:39,000
maybe we could get into this 
idea to of like specifying 

1397
01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:40,300
information. 
And is there a difference 

1398
01:14:40,300 --> 01:14:42,900
between specifying information 
and higher-order variables? 

1399
01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:47,300
Because to me there's there's 
layers of specifying information

1400
01:14:47,400 --> 01:14:50,900
and if you can move to a higher 
form of specifying information 

1401
01:14:50,900 --> 01:14:55,000
which to me is a higher-order 
variable, you begin to then that

1402
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:57,900
higher-order variable then gives
you all the other lower 

1403
01:14:57,900 --> 01:15:00,900
specifying stuff and maybe that 
lower specifying stuff is 

1404
01:15:00,900 --> 01:15:04,100
actually context-specific. 
And so like the higher-order 

1405
01:15:04,100 --> 01:15:06,400
variable actually points You 
too. 

1406
01:15:06,400 --> 01:15:09,600
What is specifying in your 
environment? 

1407
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:14,500
And so, how all this comes back 
as to actually how we View and 

1408
01:15:14,500 --> 01:15:16,800
utilize data because it's going 
back to like what you talked 

1409
01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:19,900
about before. 
Like what does this data mean? 

1410
01:15:20,100 --> 01:15:22,600
Like you always have to answer 
that question of like okay what 

1411
01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:24,700
does this mean? 
And what do I then do with it? 

1412
01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:28,500
And so, what you're trying to do
with the uncontrolled manifold 

1413
01:15:28,500 --> 01:15:31,000
analysis is, you're actually 
making your simplifying. 

1414
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:34,100
It, you're asking a simple 
question of did this meat what I

1415
01:15:34,100 --> 01:15:35,400
needed. 
Yes or no. 

1416
01:15:35,700 --> 01:15:39,100
And you Can actually create 
probably a score for like, how 

1417
01:15:39,100 --> 01:15:42,600
close are you to that line? 
Because like what's interesting 

1418
01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:44,900
to me is just like when you look
at it visually it looks a lot 

1419
01:15:44,900 --> 01:15:47,700
like the traditional linear 
models that you're actually used

1420
01:15:47,700 --> 01:15:50,400
to looking at. 
You know, if your to like look 

1421
01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:53,500
at something you actually want 
things to come towards line and 

1422
01:15:53,500 --> 01:15:56,200
in an uncontrolled manifold 
analysis, that's actually what 

1423
01:15:56,200 --> 01:15:59,300
you want to show improve skill. 
You have a better Fitness to 

1424
01:15:59,300 --> 01:16:03,500
that line because if you have 
it, tied to the outcome that 

1425
01:16:03,600 --> 01:16:05,800
that actually matters. 
And so if we're talking about 

1426
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:10,300
Pitch, The outcome that you're 
looking for, is, are you getting

1427
01:16:10,300 --> 01:16:13,000
an out? 
The challenge with pitching 

1428
01:16:13,000 --> 01:16:15,800
actually is it's actually 
simpler for hitting because 

1429
01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:17,800
hitting, it's like the answers. 
Did you hit it? 

1430
01:16:17,800 --> 01:16:18,500
Yes. 
Or no. 

1431
01:16:19,300 --> 01:16:22,300
I mean, you could make it more 
nuanced if you want to get 

1432
01:16:22,300 --> 01:16:25,000
towards more of the skill. 
Element of like, did you hit it?

1433
01:16:25,200 --> 01:16:27,900
Well enough to get you a hit, 
there's a difference between 

1434
01:16:27,900 --> 01:16:30,200
like asking the question, did 
you hit it? 

1435
01:16:30,700 --> 01:16:33,600
And then you can look at 
something like the the temporal 

1436
01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:36,300
constraint. 
Because for me this is where R, 

1437
01:16:36,300 --> 01:16:40,700
what you highlighted with the 
uncontrolled of manifold 

1438
01:16:40,700 --> 01:16:42,400
analysis. 
As I understood, it was like, oh

1439
01:16:42,400 --> 01:16:44,100
cool, you just have to get the 
answer. 

1440
01:16:44,100 --> 01:16:47,000
Like if you just pick a random 
number like 5, how many 

1441
01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:49,100
different ways are there to get 
to the number 5? 

1442
01:16:49,500 --> 01:16:52,600
Yeah, the answer is infinite. 
There's an infinite number. 

1443
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:55,200
Even though that's like so for 
example, if you're in a time 

1444
01:16:55,200 --> 01:17:00,200
constraint there is a constraint
in terms of like the how you do 

1445
01:17:00,200 --> 01:17:02,200
it. 
But the number actually within a

1446
01:17:02,208 --> 01:17:05,100
constraint within an area is 
actually infinite, right? 

1447
01:17:05,100 --> 01:17:08,800
Because of the That you can use 
decimal places like you 

1448
01:17:08,808 --> 01:17:11,600
basically go to Infinity. 
So, even within a small 

1449
01:17:11,600 --> 01:17:14,700
constrained space, you can get 
infinity. 

1450
01:17:14,700 --> 01:17:16,100
I don't know that. 
That's probably more 

1451
01:17:16,100 --> 01:17:18,400
philosophical than what we need 
to get right now. 

1452
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:21,900
But I find that fascinating that
you can get infinity through 

1453
01:17:22,900 --> 01:17:26,700
that small constrained area. 
Yeah. 

1454
01:17:26,700 --> 01:17:29,800
I mean, that's the, that's the 
essence of the, the kind of 

1455
01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:32,000
ecological Insight. 
That underpins the uncontrolled 

1456
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:34,500
manifold analysis, is this 
notion of murder, abundance, 

1457
01:17:34,500 --> 01:17:35,900
right? 
And rape. 

1458
01:17:36,000 --> 01:17:40,300
Additional that repetition the 
idea that the your body, the 

1459
01:17:40,300 --> 01:17:42,900
system that you're trying to 
control, always has more degrees

1460
01:17:42,900 --> 01:17:46,200
of freedom than it needs. 
In order to achieve any given 

1461
01:17:46,200 --> 01:17:50,000
task it just it just does, 
right? 

1462
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:52,700
And that's just always the case.
And given that that's always the

1463
01:17:52,700 --> 01:17:54,200
case. 
That means there's always more 

1464
01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:56,400
than one way to do whatever it 
is you're trying to do. 

1465
01:17:57,400 --> 01:18:00,900
And technically, there's an 
infinite number of ways of 

1466
01:18:00,907 --> 01:18:03,800
doing. 
Although, in practice, right? 

1467
01:18:03,900 --> 01:18:07,100
It's not infinite and, you know,
in principle it is. 

1468
01:18:07,500 --> 01:18:09,200
And that in the whole point of 
the whole point of the 

1469
01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:11,900
uncontrolled manifold analysis 
is just to take that insight and

1470
01:18:11,900 --> 01:18:14,800
then also to identify, make sure
there's an infinite number. 

1471
01:18:14,900 --> 01:18:18,000
Ways I can do stuff, but there's
a lot of actually there's a lot 

1472
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:21,400
of organization and structure 
going on and how you actually go

1473
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:23,800
about navigating that space, 
right? 

1474
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:27,400
So there's a lot of things that 
you never try their options if 

1475
01:18:27,400 --> 01:18:30,800
you ever needed them. 
And one of the things that you 

1476
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:34,400
see is that, if you, so for 
example, you do uncontrolled 

1477
01:18:34,400 --> 01:18:37,700
manifold analysis. 
You get people to do to try and 

1478
01:18:37,700 --> 01:18:41,300
do the same thing, say 20 times.
All right, so I got people to 

1479
01:18:41,300 --> 01:18:44,700
throw to hit a Target, 5, 10 or 
15 meters away. 

1480
01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:50,500
Twenty times. 
And so and the reason you do 

1481
01:18:50,500 --> 01:18:54,100
that is that you need some sense
of the spread of people of what 

1482
01:18:54,100 --> 01:18:56,200
the repetition without 
repetition is they're trying to 

1483
01:18:56,200 --> 01:19:00,200
do the same thing and they don't
do it exactly the same the whole

1484
01:19:00,200 --> 01:19:01,600
time. 
So you need to map out that 

1485
01:19:01,600 --> 01:19:04,000
variability but then you get 
into the interesting question. 

1486
01:19:04,000 --> 01:19:05,300
One of the things I've run into 
as yeah. 

1487
01:19:05,300 --> 01:19:11,200
Well what actually constitutes 
the same thing and so throwing 

1488
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:16,500
pitching a patch. 
When it's no outs versus one 

1489
01:19:16,500 --> 01:19:19,800
out, versus two outs, might not 
count as the same thing. 

1490
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:22,000
In fact, it almost certainly 
doesn't, right? 

1491
01:19:22,100 --> 01:19:24,300
And this is where you have to 
start thinking about what it, 

1492
01:19:24,300 --> 01:19:25,100
you know. 
What's the various? 

1493
01:19:25,200 --> 01:19:27,700
What's the Coalition of 
constraints that are currently 

1494
01:19:27,700 --> 01:19:30,900
operate in order to shape that 
particular behavior from which 

1495
01:19:30,900 --> 01:19:32,600
things are emerging in real 
time? 

1496
01:19:33,400 --> 01:19:35,400
So it's not the case that a 
picture, just comes up and 

1497
01:19:35,400 --> 01:19:38,100
delivers the same picture all 
the time, right, that context, 

1498
01:19:38,100 --> 01:19:40,500
shifts. 
And sometimes the context is 

1499
01:19:40,500 --> 01:19:42,700
something like something to do 
with the rules of the game. 

1500
01:19:42,700 --> 01:19:47,100
And sometimes the context 
Something something moved to the

1501
01:19:47,100 --> 01:19:50,100
physical. 
The the is the better left or 

1502
01:19:50,100 --> 01:19:53,300
right-handed of a tour of a 
short of a bigger they short you

1503
01:19:53,300 --> 01:19:58,200
know bigger they little all 
those kinds of constraints that 

1504
01:19:58,200 --> 01:20:02,000
you can alter as well and those 
constraints then again though 

1505
01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:04,100
you know those shifting 
constraints means that the thing

1506
01:20:04,100 --> 01:20:06,600
you did a minute ago is now no 
longer, whatever it is, you're 

1507
01:20:06,600 --> 01:20:08,700
going to do. 
Next is an example of the same 

1508
01:20:08,700 --> 01:20:11,800
thing in quite an important, 
sort of sense. 

1509
01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:14,800
And this is where this is This 
is the essence. 

1510
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:17,100
This is kind of getting to the 
nitty-gritty of why the 

1511
01:20:17,100 --> 01:20:20,700
ecological approach things 
drills was right because drills 

1512
01:20:21,300 --> 01:20:25,600
drills as an attempt to pretend 
that Sports is doing the same 

1513
01:20:25,600 --> 01:20:29,800
thing over and over again, which
it's not fundamentally, right? 

1514
01:20:30,600 --> 01:20:33,400
It's about skillful engagement 
with the current constraints of 

1515
01:20:33,400 --> 01:20:35,600
the environment. 
Now, what you end up doing is 

1516
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:37,800
something that might look very 
similar over and over again, 

1517
01:20:37,900 --> 01:20:39,900
each pitch is going to look very
similar. 

1518
01:20:39,900 --> 01:20:42,300
It's going to look like a patch 
and it's not going to look like 

1519
01:20:42,300 --> 01:20:44,300
that Cricket delivery. 
Right. 

1520
01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:47,800
Because so so it's not random, 
but what you're doing, it is 

1521
01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:50,800
constrained but it lives within 
a bigger space than people give 

1522
01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:55,700
it credit the pitching movement.
And so trying to do the same 

1523
01:20:55,700 --> 01:20:57,900
thing over and over again is not
necessarily the best way to 

1524
01:20:57,900 --> 01:21:00,400
train something because what 
you're actually trying to do is 

1525
01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:03,300
you're trying to teach people 
how to skillfully engage with 

1526
01:21:03,300 --> 01:21:06,600
those constraints so that they 
can shake what they're doing. 

1527
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:09,700
To best meet those demands, 
right? 

1528
01:21:09,700 --> 01:21:11,900
And again, the essence, you 
know, for all its limitations, 

1529
01:21:11,900 --> 01:21:15,500
and for all the various kinds of
complexity of applying it things

1530
01:21:15,500 --> 01:21:18,800
like the uncontrolled manifold 
analysis there, an attempt to 

1531
01:21:18,800 --> 01:21:23,300
front up to that reality. 
And to quantify and organize it 

1532
01:21:23,300 --> 01:21:25,600
in a way that you can then talk 
about scientifically. 

1533
01:21:26,700 --> 01:21:31,700
So you know the very least it's 
an attempt to to engage with the

1534
01:21:31,700 --> 01:21:34,600
question on its own front which 
means that the numbers that come

1535
01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:41,500
out of it Are closer metrics of 
skill than other things. 

1536
01:21:41,500 --> 01:21:45,400
Now, the thing that actually 
kind of motivated, my initial 

1537
01:21:45,400 --> 01:21:47,500
tweet about being grumpy about 
Sport Science. 

1538
01:21:47,500 --> 01:21:50,900
Just collecting data came from 
reading some UCM papers, right? 

1539
01:21:50,900 --> 01:21:55,200
So where people were doing you 
see, em on a task And then just 

1540
01:21:55,200 --> 01:21:57,500
finding some differences in 
their view CM numbers. 

1541
01:21:58,400 --> 01:22:01,700
And that was it. 
I did this task of the BET tasks

1542
01:22:01,700 --> 01:22:03,500
that you see a number was hiring
this one than that. 

1543
01:22:03,500 --> 01:22:06,300
One. 
Done. 

1544
01:22:06,500 --> 01:22:09,900
Now, that was it like and I like
it frustrated me because you've 

1545
01:22:09,900 --> 01:22:12,700
got this tool that actually has 
the capability to tell you 

1546
01:22:12,700 --> 01:22:15,000
something more than that. 
And the only thing anybody 

1547
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:17,000
seemed interested in was 
collecting some data applying 

1548
01:22:17,000 --> 01:22:18,400
the method and showing a 
difference. 

1549
01:22:18,900 --> 01:22:22,300
I was like, okay, so what like 
using the using that as an 

1550
01:22:22,300 --> 01:22:25,300
example? 
What more could you have drawn 

1551
01:22:25,300 --> 01:22:28,900
out of it like at a conceptual 
level? 

1552
01:22:29,900 --> 01:22:32,200
Well, the thing I'm trying to do
right now is, I'm bashing my 

1553
01:22:32,200 --> 01:22:33,700
head against that. 
Don't know if it's working but 

1554
01:22:33,700 --> 01:22:36,800
I'm going to give it a go. 
Is, I'm trying to connect and 

1555
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:39,500
control manifold analysis to the
perception of affordances 

1556
01:22:39,500 --> 01:22:42,900
specifically, right? 
So I'm trying to show that the, 

1557
01:22:43,700 --> 01:22:48,400
that the manifold The thing that
defines how the variability in 

1558
01:22:48,400 --> 01:22:52,600
the movement is organized, I'm 
trying to figure out whether or 

1559
01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:56,200
not I can show that that's being
generated that that's been 

1560
01:22:56,200 --> 01:22:58,700
structured by the perception of 
the affordances of the target 

1561
01:22:58,700 --> 01:23:01,600
yet. 
So I'm less interested in. 

1562
01:23:01,600 --> 01:23:05,700
Was there a difference in the 
UCM scores, between when people 

1563
01:23:05,700 --> 01:23:08,500
through 25 meters to 10 meters 
to 15 meters and I'm more 

1564
01:23:08,500 --> 01:23:12,500
interested in trying to show, 
does does my formal analysis of 

1565
01:23:12,500 --> 01:23:17,900
the affordances of the target 
Add me with a good decomposition

1566
01:23:17,900 --> 01:23:18,800
of the variance. 
Right. 

1567
01:23:18,800 --> 01:23:21,900
Am I getting somewhere? 
Am I producing an uncontrolled 

1568
01:23:21,900 --> 01:23:24,300
manifold analysis? 
That looks like I'm heading at 

1569
01:23:24,300 --> 01:23:26,300
the water. 
It is the system is organizing 

1570
01:23:26,300 --> 01:23:28,800
itself with respect to whether 
or not there's actually going to

1571
01:23:28,808 --> 01:23:31,800
work or not. 
I don't know when a draft of a 

1572
01:23:31,800 --> 01:23:33,800
paper attempting to do it. 
I'm still going to work through 

1573
01:23:33,800 --> 01:23:37,200
it but that's for me. 
That's what I want to do it 

1574
01:23:37,200 --> 01:23:39,800
again. 
That's me attempting to use a 

1575
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:45,300
method of generating metrics. 
That is at least in theory up to

1576
01:23:45,300 --> 01:23:47,900
the challenge of fronting up to 
the actual complexity of the 

1577
01:23:47,900 --> 01:23:50,900
problem. 
I'm trying to use that tool to 

1578
01:23:50,900 --> 01:23:53,600
answer a theoretically driven 
question about the perception of

1579
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:58,800
affordances and the role of that
and scale vaknin So again the 

1580
01:23:58,800 --> 01:24:01,600
reason why I'm doing it and as 
far as I can tell, why it's 

1581
01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:05,300
never occurred to anybody else 
to do this, which it always 

1582
01:24:05,300 --> 01:24:06,800
seemed like the obvious thing to
do to me. 

1583
01:24:06,800 --> 01:24:08,600
That's the other thing that's 
why I was quite surprised that 

1584
01:24:08,600 --> 01:24:11,800
nobody else seems to have done 
this at least not the way I'm 

1585
01:24:11,800 --> 01:24:20,100
sort of flying. 
That question makes complete 

1586
01:24:20,100 --> 01:24:22,900
sense to me. 
Given my understanding of what 

1587
01:24:22,900 --> 01:24:26,300
skill acquisition and skill 
skill performance is from their 

1588
01:24:26,300 --> 01:24:27,900
ecological, kind of 
understanding. 

1589
01:24:29,400 --> 01:24:30,800
But that's where the question 
came from. 

1590
01:24:31,000 --> 01:24:33,000
And I think one of the reasons 
why no one else seems to have 

1591
01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:34,400
done it is that they're not 
coming from there. 

1592
01:24:34,400 --> 01:24:35,800
They're just looking at the 
numbers and look at the 

1593
01:24:35,800 --> 01:24:38,600
differences, right? 
And that's the, that's the issue

1594
01:24:38,600 --> 01:24:40,100
again. 
And like I said, I don't know if

1595
01:24:40,100 --> 01:24:42,700
I got it, right, but at least 
I've got a sensible for a swing 

1596
01:24:42,700 --> 01:24:47,900
at it, so, I guess that's why I 
wanted to follow up with at 

1597
01:24:47,900 --> 01:24:50,700
least my Puzzle of what? 
I least understand, because to 

1598
01:24:50,700 --> 01:24:56,400
me, they're the entry point is 
to in a way work within the 

1599
01:24:56,400 --> 01:24:58,800
current model of the system of 
giving you an indicator good or 

1600
01:24:58,800 --> 01:25:00,800
bad. 
Because I think this is a simple

1601
01:25:01,100 --> 01:25:02,800
like, it's a simple starting 
place, right? 

1602
01:25:02,800 --> 01:25:05,400
If you just even boil it back, 
everybody one Simplicity, you 

1603
01:25:05,400 --> 01:25:07,700
know, like what do I initially? 
Because I know I have a little 

1604
01:25:07,700 --> 01:25:11,600
kid like I'm in some ways trying
to give him value judgments, 

1605
01:25:11,600 --> 01:25:13,900
this is good, this is bad. 
Now, I have to help him 

1606
01:25:13,900 --> 01:25:17,700
understand in situation of like 
you know oftentimes I'll say 

1607
01:25:17,700 --> 01:25:20,300
things like not Now, because I 
don't want him to think that 

1608
01:25:20,300 --> 01:25:24,100
whatever it is, is categorically
bad all the time, but I want him

1609
01:25:24,100 --> 01:25:26,800
to understand that in this 
context, this is not good. 

1610
01:25:26,900 --> 01:25:31,000
And so, in the same way of like,
I think, you know, basically, 

1611
01:25:31,000 --> 01:25:32,700
because the first because when 
you, when you're, when you're 

1612
01:25:32,700 --> 01:25:36,300
overwhelmed with information, 
you want a simple value judgment

1613
01:25:36,300 --> 01:25:39,100
to get you moving. 
And so that's that's where I go 

1614
01:25:39,100 --> 01:25:42,400
back to like when we're when 
we're designing, if we were to 

1615
01:25:42,400 --> 01:25:44,400
use an uncontrolled manifold 
analysis, okay? 

1616
01:25:44,400 --> 01:25:49,400
So for for very specifics in the
new hot, Guy system. 

1617
01:25:49,400 --> 01:25:51,700
That is working in baseball is 
similar to what you're talking 

1618
01:25:51,700 --> 01:25:54,700
about with football, like 
they're able to especially with 

1619
01:25:54,700 --> 01:25:58,100
the pictures. 
I even think to with the hitters

1620
01:25:59,100 --> 01:26:01,500
is they're able to get a ton of 
kinematic data. 

1621
01:26:02,100 --> 01:26:04,300
So now that you have all this 
kinematic data of how like how 

1622
01:26:04,300 --> 01:26:08,100
the picture is moving in now 
interacting with the problem and

1623
01:26:08,100 --> 01:26:10,400
now you have it tied to an 
outcome because every pitch 

1624
01:26:10,400 --> 01:26:14,900
produces an outcome. 
So if you can Like in some ways,

1625
01:26:14,900 --> 01:26:19,000
right? 
Your high-level number or 

1626
01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:22,400
analysis is going to actually 
compress a lot of things 

1627
01:26:22,400 --> 01:26:24,200
together so you're going to 
actually lose some of the 

1628
01:26:24,200 --> 01:26:26,800
specificity to get a more 
generalized thing. 

1629
01:26:26,800 --> 01:26:31,500
But it's really when you when 
you're trying to simplify things

1630
01:26:31,800 --> 01:26:35,900
to make it more manageable, you 
know, to make the complexity and

1631
01:26:35,900 --> 01:26:39,800
all the information manageable 
and to constrain to afford, you 

1632
01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:41,800
have to go back to words like 
what's your, what's your 

1633
01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:43,300
overarching goal? 
Like, where you trying to go? 

1634
01:26:43,700 --> 01:26:46,200
Go essentially. 
And so if the goal is to trying 

1635
01:26:46,200 --> 01:26:49,000
to win, like this is why 
everybody breaks it down into 

1636
01:26:49,000 --> 01:26:52,200
like okay, when this pitch 
because this is how you move the

1637
01:26:52,200 --> 01:26:59,100
thing forward and so To me, when
I'm designing this, this initial

1638
01:26:59,100 --> 01:27:02,900
metric is to tell you. 
Okay, are they better at 

1639
01:27:02,900 --> 01:27:06,500
overall? 
At this skill of moving you 

1640
01:27:06,500 --> 01:27:10,400
towards this end goal. 
And if you're the person who has

1641
01:27:10,400 --> 01:27:15,400
more ways of doing that in 
theory, to me as is one more 

1642
01:27:15,400 --> 01:27:17,900
skillful and regardless of the 
situation is, but he's going to 

1643
01:27:17,900 --> 01:27:21,400
be able to perform over a wider 
range of situations and 

1644
01:27:21,400 --> 01:27:25,600
partially to you can see that 
the system is because To like, 

1645
01:27:25,800 --> 01:27:28,900
what you do is you take, you 
take measurements over time and 

1646
01:27:28,900 --> 01:27:30,300
you look at the direction of 
travel. 

1647
01:27:30,300 --> 01:27:32,400
This is the whole thing, like 
what we're talking about before,

1648
01:27:32,700 --> 01:27:37,100
like how it practically layers 
is like, okay, if you can track 

1649
01:27:37,100 --> 01:27:39,500
this of like, okay, what's the 
current state of the system? 

1650
01:27:39,500 --> 01:27:43,200
How much abundance is it showing
and does that abundance? 

1651
01:27:43,200 --> 01:27:46,600
You could say, decrease over 
whatever time scale you want to 

1652
01:27:46,608 --> 01:27:49,600
look at of course of a game the 
course of a season. 

1653
01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:54,400
You know, like in the past using
his past body of work to predict

1654
01:27:54,400 --> 01:27:58,000
the future. 
I mean everything to me is about

1655
01:27:58,000 --> 01:28:01,400
like timescales and what you 
want to look at it because some 

1656
01:28:01,400 --> 01:28:05,100
things information becomes more 
relevant. 

1657
01:28:05,100 --> 01:28:07,600
You could say this is kind of 
like weather forecasting, right?

1658
01:28:07,800 --> 01:28:10,600
The prediction is a lot better. 
The closer you are to the time 

1659
01:28:10,600 --> 01:28:15,400
of the event but the further out
you go the more the more the 

1660
01:28:15,400 --> 01:28:18,100
less accurate your forecasting 
is. 

1661
01:28:18,500 --> 01:28:20,700
I mean because that's that's 
part of what the analytics teams

1662
01:28:20,700 --> 01:28:22,800
are doing because if you're 
looking at scouting and all this

1663
01:28:22,800 --> 01:28:24,500
sort of stuff and how much 
you're going to pay a player 

1664
01:28:24,500 --> 01:28:29,400
all, This sort of stuff, your 
ability to get a good because to

1665
01:28:29,400 --> 01:28:31,800
me this is the whole in 
decision-making, right? 

1666
01:28:31,800 --> 01:28:34,000
We go with the best. 
The first best available. 

1667
01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:36,600
We don't go with the the most 
optimal, the most logical 

1668
01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:38,800
whatever. 
It's the first thing that shows 

1669
01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:42,900
up is usually what we go with. 
And so to me that that shows 

1670
01:28:42,900 --> 01:28:46,600
that getting a close 
approximation to get you going 

1671
01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:49,000
is actually how we do a lot of 
things. 

1672
01:28:49,500 --> 01:28:53,700
Like we don't we don't need to 
be exact like is this a to me? 

1673
01:28:53,700 --> 01:28:56,000
Like if you were to get an A 
Perspective control. 

1674
01:28:56,000 --> 01:28:57,900
That's exactly what perspective 
control is. 

1675
01:28:57,900 --> 01:29:00,400
Doing is getting you moving 
towards. 

1676
01:29:00,400 --> 01:29:04,900
Your your own goal and you're 
just simply saying, like, Okay, 

1677
01:29:04,900 --> 01:29:07,800
it is if I keep doing what I'm 
doing, am I going to end up at 

1678
01:29:07,800 --> 01:29:09,900
my end goal? 
And if not, what do I need to do

1679
01:29:09,900 --> 01:29:12,700
to get back to trying to meet my
own goal? 

1680
01:29:13,600 --> 01:29:16,600
And so I mean to me it's if 
you're using an analogy it's 

1681
01:29:16,600 --> 01:29:18,600
like a heat-seeking missile, 
right? 

1682
01:29:18,600 --> 01:29:24,900
Like it just tracks wherever 
it's going, There's a few 

1683
01:29:24,900 --> 01:29:26,200
different layers there. 
Start. 

1684
01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:34,000
In terms of precision and how 
much you actually need to know. 

1685
01:29:36,800 --> 01:29:39,600
So the baseball Scout it might 
be the case that some of these 

1686
01:29:39,600 --> 01:29:41,500
metrics that's officially 
correlate with something. 

1687
01:29:41,500 --> 01:29:44,800
I sufficiently informative that 
it will enable them to select 

1688
01:29:44,800 --> 01:29:47,100
one person rather than another, 
or Focus attention on that 

1689
01:29:47,100 --> 01:29:50,300
person rather than that person. 
And the the number that they're 

1690
01:29:50,300 --> 01:29:52,000
using, is sufficiently 
informative. 

1691
01:29:52,000 --> 01:29:56,800
That, that that, that using it 
to guide, that decision works 

1692
01:29:56,800 --> 01:30:00,000
well enough. 
To make it worthwhile doing at 

1693
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:03,900
that scale. 
But that's that's that's one 

1694
01:30:03,900 --> 01:30:06,100
kind of decision, making 
context, right? 

1695
01:30:06,700 --> 01:30:09,100
Then there's the decision, 
making context on, you know, the

1696
01:30:09,100 --> 01:30:10,700
athlete on the field on the day,
right? 

1697
01:30:10,700 --> 01:30:14,500
And there's questions around how
that works and how best to coach

1698
01:30:14,500 --> 01:30:15,500
there. 
And then there's the other 

1699
01:30:15,500 --> 01:30:18,700
question, you know, from my 
question as a scientist, as I'm 

1700
01:30:18,700 --> 01:30:22,500
trying to figure out and shows 
clearly as possible and test 

1701
01:30:22,500 --> 01:30:26,000
between different possible 
mechanisms for how that behavior

1702
01:30:26,000 --> 01:30:29,900
happened to come out. 
And so really matters to me 

1703
01:30:30,300 --> 01:30:33,800
together as right as possible 
because I have to go I'm kind of

1704
01:30:33,800 --> 01:30:38,100
trying to zero in on that detail
but just because I'm trying to 

1705
01:30:38,100 --> 01:30:40,600
zero in on that detail in order 
to achieve what I'm trying to 

1706
01:30:40,600 --> 01:30:42,900
achieve doesn't mean that 
zeroing in on that details the 

1707
01:30:42,900 --> 01:30:45,600
thing they need to do and it 
might not be the thing scout 

1708
01:30:45,600 --> 01:30:47,900
needs to do. 
So there are there, if there is 

1709
01:30:47,900 --> 01:30:51,100
an issue of these metrics being 
being puffed, you know, being 

1710
01:30:53,400 --> 01:30:54,900
sometimes been good enough as 
fine. 

1711
01:30:55,700 --> 01:31:00,900
That's part of it. 
The other thing that's lurking 

1712
01:31:00,900 --> 01:31:03,700
in there is this is a matter is 
a very important notion of task 

1713
01:31:03,700 --> 01:31:06,700
specificity, right? 
Is that when I'm trying to 

1714
01:31:06,700 --> 01:31:09,400
figure out how things actually 
work, one of the big limitation,

1715
01:31:09,400 --> 01:31:12,700
one of the big challenges and of
the reality of the situation is 

1716
01:31:12,700 --> 01:31:15,800
that behavior is deeply 
task-specific, right? 

1717
01:31:16,300 --> 01:31:20,400
What we do in this context, it 
doesn't take very much of a 

1718
01:31:20,400 --> 01:31:24,400
shift of context to get you 
behaving quite differently, and 

1719
01:31:24,400 --> 01:31:29,000
that's one of the big kind of, 
it's a In pain quite frankly 

1720
01:31:29,000 --> 01:31:31,700
because it makes doing the 
science of gets back to that 

1721
01:31:31,700 --> 01:31:34,000
question about, you know, when 
I'm doing science I need to ask 

1722
01:31:34,000 --> 01:31:36,900
people to do try and do the same
thing over and over again, at 

1723
01:31:36,900 --> 01:31:40,000
least a few times because 
looking at that variability in 

1724
01:31:40,000 --> 01:31:42,100
those you know their Tendencies 
and all that sort of stuff is 

1725
01:31:42,100 --> 01:31:44,000
how I go and figure out what's 
going on. 

1726
01:31:44,900 --> 01:31:47,900
But it turns out it's really 
hard to ask that question, which

1727
01:31:47,900 --> 01:31:51,600
is fine. 
As a mover, as a person trying 

1728
01:31:51,600 --> 01:31:53,500
to move and do the things right.
You know. 

1729
01:31:53,500 --> 01:31:56,200
It doesn't you know having that 
room to maneuver doesn't isn't 

1730
01:31:56,200 --> 01:31:58,800
isn't so much of a disaster but 
it's a pain for me is the 

1731
01:31:58,808 --> 01:32:04,500
scientist and it may, I get ya 
anyway, so these and then on the

1732
01:32:04,500 --> 01:32:06,300
issue of perspective, control 
versus these things. 

1733
01:32:06,300 --> 01:32:08,200
Oh, that's the other thing from 
the point of view of the Scout. 

1734
01:32:08,200 --> 01:32:09,800
I've been what they're trying to
do is they're trying to 

1735
01:32:09,800 --> 01:32:12,300
explicitly, they're trying to 
predict they're actually, 

1736
01:32:12,700 --> 01:32:14,400
they're trying to predict future
performance. 

1737
01:32:14,400 --> 01:32:16,400
They're in a situation where 
something like perspective 

1738
01:32:16,400 --> 01:32:19,000
control, simply can't happen 
because they're creating a 

1739
01:32:19,100 --> 01:32:20,900
Situation where they're trying 
to predict something in the 

1740
01:32:20,907 --> 01:32:25,200
future, that's disconnected from
the vents a little bit going on.

1741
01:32:25,200 --> 01:32:28,600
Now, whereas Prospect of 
controllers, what happens when 

1742
01:32:28,600 --> 01:32:31,300
an organism tries to interact 
with its current environment in 

1743
01:32:31,300 --> 01:32:33,600
a way in which some of the 
things that needs to interact 

1744
01:32:33,600 --> 01:32:37,000
with their own the future. 
And it turns out that from the 

1745
01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:40,600
organism point of view. 
Well, ecologically, we argue 

1746
01:32:40,600 --> 01:32:43,200
that prediction isn't an option.
It actually, the only option 

1747
01:32:43,200 --> 01:32:45,300
you've got his perspective 
control, the only thing you can 

1748
01:32:45,300 --> 01:32:47,800
do is interact with the 
environment. 

1749
01:32:48,200 --> 01:32:52,700
Now, in ways that then enable 
you to achieve things in the 

1750
01:32:52,700 --> 01:32:54,000
future. 
And one of the things that we've

1751
01:32:54,000 --> 01:32:56,600
revealed is that it's possible 
to do that, right? 

1752
01:32:56,700 --> 01:32:59,200
It's possible to interact with 
what's currently going on. 

1753
01:32:59,200 --> 01:33:02,800
In a way the substance that you 
end up reliably producing some 

1754
01:33:02,800 --> 01:33:06,300
future outcome without ever 
having to explicitly know what 

1755
01:33:06,300 --> 01:33:08,600
their future outcomes. 
Exactly going to look like but 

1756
01:33:08,608 --> 01:33:13,700
again There's this difference of
trying to make of an organism 

1757
01:33:13,700 --> 01:33:16,900
trying to make a decision in the
moment based so that it can 

1758
01:33:16,900 --> 01:33:22,100
control, its perception action 
systems versus the very distinct

1759
01:33:22,100 --> 01:33:25,100
from that scenario of trying to 
take some numbers and use those 

1760
01:33:25,100 --> 01:33:26,800
to explicitly. 
Make some prediction about 

1761
01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:29,300
something, it's a very different
set up, right? 

1762
01:33:29,300 --> 01:33:31,500
And again, that's the other 
thing is that, then we're not 

1763
01:33:31,500 --> 01:33:34,500
the same, which means that the 
requirements they have for the 

1764
01:33:34,500 --> 01:33:38,100
data that they use are going to 
be different too. 

1765
01:33:40,000 --> 01:33:44,800
To jump back just a little bit 
because I have this bad habit of

1766
01:33:45,000 --> 01:33:47,000
throwing too much out there like
to ask you a question. 

1767
01:33:47,000 --> 01:33:49,800
Then I'll carry on under 
something else. 

1768
01:33:50,600 --> 01:33:53,900
What is your thought though, on?
Too close to tie up that, that 

1769
01:33:53,900 --> 01:33:57,900
last question of okay using an 
uncontrolled manifold analysis, 

1770
01:33:57,900 --> 01:34:00,700
to give you a score, you could 
say, right? 

1771
01:34:00,700 --> 01:34:05,200
Because like if if you have a 
tighter fit to that line you 

1772
01:34:05,200 --> 01:34:08,000
know because because that sounds
to me, as I was listening, you 

1773
01:34:08,000 --> 01:34:10,900
criticize the That one paper, 
that's kind of what they were 

1774
01:34:10,900 --> 01:34:14,000
doing, right? 
Is that a fair interpretation of

1775
01:34:14,008 --> 01:34:16,300
what you have? 
Like, they're just looking at 

1776
01:34:16,300 --> 01:34:19,600
the fitness between the 
uncontrolled? 

1777
01:34:19,600 --> 01:34:25,200
Manifolds and, and so to me 
though, it's like if I wanted to

1778
01:34:25,200 --> 01:34:28,000
measure skill, that would be one
way of measuring it based upon 

1779
01:34:28,000 --> 01:34:32,500
whatever it is that I tie it to.
And so whether I tie it to like 

1780
01:34:32,700 --> 01:34:35,500
the batted better ball outcome. 
Like, did you hit the ball? 

1781
01:34:35,500 --> 01:34:36,200
Yes. 
Or no. 

1782
01:34:37,700 --> 01:34:40,900
And then and, or did I Did this 
move me towards an out? 

1783
01:34:41,100 --> 01:34:43,500
I think that's what you have to 
do with pitching and Mason much 

1784
01:34:43,500 --> 01:34:46,700
more complicated, but you could 
just simply say in such because 

1785
01:34:46,700 --> 01:34:54,000
there's just too many pitches 
because in which the the 

1786
01:34:54,000 --> 01:34:57,800
potential of an out is limited 
because it requires a batter to 

1787
01:34:57,800 --> 01:35:02,000
swing and or you have to be an 
account that would basically 

1788
01:35:02,000 --> 01:35:05,200
meaning to strikes that allows 
that that next pitch, has the 

1789
01:35:05,200 --> 01:35:09,500
possibility to result in and out
with no swing and so, Like 

1790
01:35:09,600 --> 01:35:11,900
that's weird to me, it's more of
a question of like you could 

1791
01:35:11,900 --> 01:35:15,700
probably capture, does this move
you towards getting getting an 

1792
01:35:15,700 --> 01:35:18,400
out because if you throw balls 
into the strike zone, that's 

1793
01:35:18,400 --> 01:35:20,100
moving you towards getting it 
out. 

1794
01:35:20,400 --> 01:35:26,200
And and so like it sufficient to
to move the thing forward 

1795
01:35:26,300 --> 01:35:29,100
because if guys throw more 
strikes in a general sense, 

1796
01:35:29,500 --> 01:35:32,100
Robert, you you're going to have
to speak to this more, but if 

1797
01:35:32,100 --> 01:35:34,900
you throw more strikes in a 
general sense, you probably have

1798
01:35:34,900 --> 01:35:38,200
a, it's a close enough 
correlation to seeing you move 

1799
01:35:38,200 --> 01:35:40,700
towards being a Better pitcher 
because you're going to get more

1800
01:35:40,700 --> 01:35:43,300
outs like you're going to have a
lower era, you're going to have 

1801
01:35:43,300 --> 01:35:47,200
a lower Whip and these different
these different traditional 

1802
01:35:47,200 --> 01:35:49,400
metrics because where I go at 
the end. 

1803
01:35:49,400 --> 01:35:51,800
Okay, so I need to stop before I
do that thing again. 

1804
01:35:52,100 --> 01:35:56,400
So what are your thoughts on 
using the uncontrolled a 

1805
01:35:56,400 --> 01:36:00,700
manifold analysis in that way? 
Is that an appropriate way to 

1806
01:36:00,700 --> 01:36:04,800
use it? 
Or does that violate some some 

1807
01:36:04,800 --> 01:36:09,100
fundamental principles? 
I have to think some more about 

1808
01:36:09,100 --> 01:36:12,500
this. 
I don't, I think the underlying 

1809
01:36:13,500 --> 01:36:15,900
sort of motivations for the 
uncontrolled manifold analysis 

1810
01:36:15,900 --> 01:36:20,500
that the The essential problem 
that that analysis is trying to 

1811
01:36:20,500 --> 01:36:24,000
tackle name of this issue of 
motive redundancy motor 

1812
01:36:24,000 --> 01:36:26,900
abundance. 
The idea of was more than one 

1813
01:36:26,900 --> 01:36:29,600
way to do any given movement and
that you're trying to understand

1814
01:36:30,600 --> 01:36:33,200
what, you know how people go 
about organizing those movements

1815
01:36:33,200 --> 01:36:35,200
and coping with that 
possibility. 

1816
01:36:36,600 --> 01:36:38,700
I think, first of all, I think 
you could probably throw. 

1817
01:36:38,700 --> 01:36:41,400
You see him at this kind of data
as long as you weren't careful. 

1818
01:36:41,900 --> 01:36:43,600
One of the things I've learned 
and trying to use the 

1819
01:36:43,600 --> 01:36:46,500
uncontrolled manifold analysis, 
and one of the original purposes

1820
01:36:46,500 --> 01:36:49,300
of it was to test control 
hypotheses. 

1821
01:36:49,600 --> 01:36:52,500
So what you do is you take the 
same movement data and you 

1822
01:36:52,500 --> 01:36:54,900
decompose it with respect to 
different potential outcomes, 

1823
01:36:55,000 --> 01:36:57,700
right? 
So you do and to try and figure 

1824
01:36:57,700 --> 01:37:00,200
out which one produces, the 
better decomposition of the 

1825
01:37:00,200 --> 01:37:04,100
variance right now idea, is that
so, you know, so you're if I've 

1826
01:37:04,100 --> 01:37:06,700
got joint angles for a throw 
for, People. 

1827
01:37:07,300 --> 01:37:10,400
I could decompose that with 
respect to the release velocity 

1828
01:37:10,700 --> 01:37:14,000
where I can decompose that with 
respect to the position of the 

1829
01:37:14,000 --> 01:37:15,600
hand at various points in the 
trajectory. 

1830
01:37:15,900 --> 01:37:20,100
And the idea is that you're you 
decompose the variance according

1831
01:37:20,100 --> 01:37:23,500
to different potential, 
candidate outcomes, to see which

1832
01:37:23,500 --> 01:37:25,400
one it looks like. 
The variance is being organized,

1833
01:37:25,400 --> 01:37:27,900
with respect to maintaining 
right. 

1834
01:37:28,000 --> 01:37:31,800
And so so sometimes those are 
what you'll find is that 

1835
01:37:31,800 --> 01:37:34,500
sometimes you'll try and 
decompose the variance relative 

1836
01:37:34,500 --> 01:37:37,600
to some variable that you think 
the system, Trolling and you'll 

1837
01:37:37,600 --> 01:37:39,900
end up with nothing. 
Just doesn't look like the 

1838
01:37:39,900 --> 01:37:41,500
system, cares about that thing 
at all. 

1839
01:37:42,000 --> 01:37:44,700
And then sometimes you'll find 
that it is in fact looking for 

1840
01:37:44,700 --> 01:37:46,400
something like that. 
So one of the things that I 

1841
01:37:46,407 --> 01:37:48,400
found like the original 
motivation in the original 

1842
01:37:48,600 --> 01:37:51,100
thoughts and show no paper was 
explicitly about testing 

1843
01:37:52,600 --> 01:37:55,900
hypotheses about what you think 
is the thing. 

1844
01:37:55,900 --> 01:37:58,700
The system is trying to organize
itself with respect to it, 

1845
01:37:58,700 --> 01:38:01,600
what's it trying to achieve and 
you can look to see the 

1846
01:38:01,600 --> 01:38:04,900
different portions of how good 
the decomposition of that's the 

1847
01:38:04,900 --> 01:38:06,200
thing that's kind of trailed 
away. 

1848
01:38:06,300 --> 01:38:08,900
In the using, which two people 
don't use it to test hypotheses 

1849
01:38:08,900 --> 01:38:12,600
anymore, they just apply the 
method and Report the found and 

1850
01:38:12,600 --> 01:38:15,100
then the other thing I found 
went there, my data is that it 

1851
01:38:15,100 --> 01:38:17,500
gets complicated because 
actually I've seen, you know, 

1852
01:38:17,500 --> 01:38:23,000
doing the decomposition against 
different potential performance 

1853
01:38:23,000 --> 01:38:25,800
variables. 
Multiple variables. 

1854
01:38:25,800 --> 01:38:27,600
Sometimes look like they're 
working and it's hard to tell 

1855
01:38:27,600 --> 01:38:30,900
which one's the system is 
actually working towards and 

1856
01:38:30,900 --> 01:38:33,300
wine. 
So it's so the moral of the 

1857
01:38:33,308 --> 01:38:36,400
story is I think the underlying 
logic of the of the ECM is the 

1858
01:38:36,400 --> 01:38:39,600
right underlying logic of it 
really forces you to ask the 

1859
01:38:39,608 --> 01:38:41,000
right kinds of questions and 
concerns. 

1860
01:38:41,000 --> 01:38:45,800
We be used to guide them but 
then the other question like 

1861
01:38:45,800 --> 01:38:47,700
whether or not you could 
actually just actually do that 

1862
01:38:47,700 --> 01:38:49,400
with a numbers. 
I don't know if spend a lot of 

1863
01:38:49,407 --> 01:38:53,400
time thinking about it. 
But the the end of line. 

1864
01:38:55,300 --> 01:38:59,000
The UCM, embodies the motor, 
abundance hypothesis, right? 

1865
01:38:59,000 --> 01:39:03,100
It's an analysis technique that 
literally builds into itself. 

1866
01:39:03,500 --> 01:39:06,700
The assumption that there is 
repetition without repetition 

1867
01:39:06,700 --> 01:39:09,500
because of the way, the movement
systems are organized relative 

1868
01:39:09,500 --> 01:39:11,100
towards what they're trying to 
control. 

1869
01:39:11,600 --> 01:39:14,800
And so that understanding that, 
like, going at the question with

1870
01:39:14,800 --> 01:39:19,400
bat theoretical weyer, is how 
you get the better questions and

1871
01:39:19,400 --> 01:39:22,300
go to your data. 
Just thinking about the other 

1872
01:39:22,300 --> 01:39:23,700
thing as well. 
It gets back to the question of 

1873
01:39:23,700 --> 01:39:25,900
what counts as a good pitch, 
right? 

1874
01:39:25,900 --> 01:39:29,500
So sure you could just pitch 
strikes all the time. 

1875
01:39:29,500 --> 01:39:33,200
You could just try and do 
everything you can to make the 

1876
01:39:33,200 --> 01:39:34,700
pitch. 
Go through the strike zone every

1877
01:39:34,700 --> 01:39:37,300
single time. 
You could do that and it would 

1878
01:39:37,300 --> 01:39:42,200
probably work out, okay? 
But that's a fairly rigid 

1879
01:39:42,200 --> 01:39:47,300
solution to the problem of 
becoming a good picture, right? 

1880
01:39:47,400 --> 01:39:51,800
So I always think about the kind
of sports player that the 

1881
01:39:51,800 --> 01:39:56,400
players that we always really 
look at and go that person's mm,

1882
01:39:56,800 --> 01:40:00,900
just a master of their sport. 
That person is an amazing 

1883
01:40:00,900 --> 01:40:03,200
athlete. 
There are the ones, they're not,

1884
01:40:03,200 --> 01:40:05,500
the ones, who can reliably 
produce something. 

1885
01:40:05,500 --> 01:40:07,400
They're the ones who are the 
most adaptable. 

1886
01:40:07,700 --> 01:40:13,800
They're the ones who never seem 
to get phased, right? 

1887
01:40:13,800 --> 01:40:18,900
They're the ones that you can't.
Throw off because whatever you 

1888
01:40:18,900 --> 01:40:21,400
throw at them, they have a 
solution, right? 

1889
01:40:21,500 --> 01:40:24,200
Those are the ones we look at 
and go. 

1890
01:40:24,600 --> 01:40:27,200
That's a person that really 
understands their sport, right? 

1891
01:40:27,200 --> 01:40:29,200
That's an amazing athlete. 
That's an incredible effort and 

1892
01:40:29,208 --> 01:40:31,000
there's all kinds of examples 
of, you know, there's players 

1893
01:40:31,000 --> 01:40:33,300
over the years of lots of 
different sports, those kinds of

1894
01:40:33,300 --> 01:40:35,400
numbers. 
And I think if you like we all 

1895
01:40:35,400 --> 01:40:37,100
kind of know what those people 
look like. 

1896
01:40:37,100 --> 01:40:39,300
We all value, those kind of 
people, right? 

1897
01:40:39,900 --> 01:40:42,700
You could look at the picture 
who only ever tries to throw to 

1898
01:40:42,700 --> 01:40:45,000
the exact same place in the 
strike zone every single time 

1899
01:40:45,000 --> 01:40:47,800
and they might on Courage do. 
Okay, in terms of else just 

1900
01:40:47,800 --> 01:40:49,700
because of the way, baseball 
works. 

1901
01:40:50,900 --> 01:40:53,200
But you might not have a look at
them and go, man, that's an 

1902
01:40:53,200 --> 01:40:57,500
amazing picture. 
Might go there are good reliable

1903
01:40:57,500 --> 01:41:01,700
picture but they're not the one 
to pull out the magical play or 

1904
01:41:01,700 --> 01:41:05,600
to or to just create something, 
right? 

1905
01:41:05,600 --> 01:41:08,100
And those are the ones and that 
gets back to the question of 

1906
01:41:08,100 --> 01:41:08,800
skill. 
Right? 

1907
01:41:08,800 --> 01:41:11,500
Skill is not being able to do 
the same thing over and over 

1908
01:41:11,500 --> 01:41:14,200
again, skill is being able to do
the right thing at the right 

1909
01:41:14,200 --> 01:41:17,300
time. 
And what that is and that means 

1910
01:41:17,300 --> 01:41:20,500
being skillfully. 
Couplet your environment. 

1911
01:41:20,500 --> 01:41:22,900
You have to be flexibly and 
adaptively couple to your 

1912
01:41:22,900 --> 01:41:25,500
environment. 
So that what you do is 

1913
01:41:25,500 --> 01:41:30,800
constrained by the task demands,
and by your capabilities, but 

1914
01:41:30,800 --> 01:41:35,500
constrained in that kind of More
and that flexible and adaptive 

1915
01:41:35,500 --> 01:41:38,300
kind of when it's capturing that
flexibility, right as hard. 

1916
01:41:38,300 --> 01:41:40,700
But there are numbers, I mean if
you really want to go there is 

1917
01:41:40,700 --> 01:41:42,800
their numbers for 
characterizing, the behaviors of

1918
01:41:42,800 --> 01:41:45,900
dynamical systems that tell you 
things about coupling strength 

1919
01:41:45,900 --> 01:41:49,100
and the tell you things about 
you know as your the stability 

1920
01:41:49,100 --> 01:41:51,100
of your system versus the you 
know there's you know there's 

1921
01:41:51,100 --> 01:41:55,200
various numbers you can produce 
it tell you things like that 

1922
01:41:55,200 --> 01:41:58,900
that are diagnostic bit more 
diagnostic about about the about

1923
01:41:58,900 --> 01:42:02,200
the kind of system that you have
or if you have a rigid system, 

1924
01:42:02,200 --> 01:42:04,700
that's Not very flexible. 
Would you have one that's really

1925
01:42:04,700 --> 01:42:08,100
just writing that edge or if you
have one that's too unstable and

1926
01:42:08,100 --> 01:42:10,200
it's trying too many wacky, 
right? 

1927
01:42:10,800 --> 01:42:15,200
You can you can, you know, you 
can you can quantify these 

1928
01:42:15,200 --> 01:42:17,400
things, you just have to ask 
questions of the day. 

1929
01:42:18,100 --> 01:42:22,600
So how would you tell me more 
about this coupling idea because

1930
01:42:22,600 --> 01:42:25,600
like this being able to quantify
that? 

1931
01:42:25,600 --> 01:42:29,900
Because for example, I know, I 
know there are some people who 

1932
01:42:29,900 --> 01:42:35,600
are trying to figure out how to 
better Quantify, an ecological 

1933
01:42:35,600 --> 01:42:37,900
approach. 
And to me, that is one thing. 

1934
01:42:38,100 --> 01:42:39,500
Because, you know, it gets 
thrown. 

1935
01:42:39,700 --> 01:42:44,100
This is where I recognize my 
limitations in terms of my 

1936
01:42:44,100 --> 01:42:45,900
understanding. 
Like, I know what I haven't 

1937
01:42:45,900 --> 01:42:47,900
interacted yet. 
I know that I've touched the tip

1938
01:42:47,900 --> 01:42:50,400
of an iceberg, right? 
Like, I know certain things 

1939
01:42:50,400 --> 01:42:53,300
exist but I don't know the 
details of how they exist and 

1940
01:42:53,300 --> 01:42:54,700
how they work. 
Right. 

1941
01:42:54,700 --> 01:42:58,100
Like in and I think for other 
people in the Baseball World, 

1942
01:42:58,100 --> 01:42:59,900
they don't even know these 
things exist. 

1943
01:43:00,000 --> 01:43:04,800
Like I think that's that's where
You know, I know I saw some 

1944
01:43:05,100 --> 01:43:08,400
organizations like looking to 
hire people and it's like okay 

1945
01:43:08,500 --> 01:43:10,400
that's a start. 
But if you don't even have a 

1946
01:43:10,400 --> 01:43:13,100
clue for how to even utilize 
this person, they're just going 

1947
01:43:13,100 --> 01:43:16,400
to sit in a corner generating 
ideas that basically almost go 

1948
01:43:16,400 --> 01:43:19,900
to no one and like it's it's 
going to be based upon human 

1949
01:43:19,900 --> 01:43:22,600
psychology on which one's 
actually take. 

1950
01:43:22,700 --> 01:43:27,000
And like, to me sometimes, what 
actually takes is actually a it 

1951
01:43:27,000 --> 01:43:31,600
gets twisted sometimes like I'll
just use the example of like the

1952
01:43:31,600 --> 01:43:32,400
constraint. 
Let approach. 

1953
01:43:33,500 --> 01:43:36,000
Somebody in the baseball 
industry, popularize, the 

1954
01:43:36,000 --> 01:43:39,400
constraint, let approach but 
they had a misunderstanding, 

1955
01:43:39,800 --> 01:43:43,100
like they saw the potential of 
it and then used it to fit their

1956
01:43:43,300 --> 01:43:45,900
their their technical model into
it. 

1957
01:43:46,100 --> 01:43:49,700
So like you can strain to force 
what you want and then you open 

1958
01:43:49,700 --> 01:43:52,400
up your take constraints off 
later on. 

1959
01:43:52,600 --> 01:43:55,600
And it's like, that's not how 
like that's that's not, that's a

1960
01:43:55,600 --> 01:43:57,600
fundamental misunderstanding of 
the constraint. 

1961
01:43:57,600 --> 01:44:01,300
Let approach like we constrain 
to afford, not constrained to 

1962
01:44:01,400 --> 01:44:02,700
get what I want. 
And then I take the The 

1963
01:44:02,708 --> 01:44:06,000
constraints off and then you 
maintain that because that 

1964
01:44:06,000 --> 01:44:08,400
that's just a traditionalist of 
approach. 

1965
01:44:08,600 --> 01:44:11,400
Yes, there are always 
constraints, right? 

1966
01:44:11,400 --> 01:44:14,200
And if they're on constraints, 
then you don't get any structure

1967
01:44:14,200 --> 01:44:17,600
and your behavior, right? 
So I'm giving you know, this is 

1968
01:44:17,600 --> 01:44:19,000
this is where, you know, look if
you're going looking for 

1969
01:44:19,000 --> 01:44:20,500
numbers, right? 
People have been studying, 

1970
01:44:20,500 --> 01:44:24,000
nonlinear dynamical systems 
physical systems for a long time

1971
01:44:24,000 --> 01:44:26,000
and figuring out ways of 
quantifying their behavior, 

1972
01:44:26,000 --> 01:44:28,000
right? 
So you know, so for example, 

1973
01:44:28,800 --> 01:44:31,600
there's a classic chemical 
reaction. 

1974
01:44:31,600 --> 01:44:34,000
I can't remember the name of it.
And after a couple of Russian 

1975
01:44:34,100 --> 01:44:36,700
chemist that figured it out and 
that's this weird. 

1976
01:44:36,700 --> 01:44:39,500
Also, lighting chemical reaction
basically where you mix up these

1977
01:44:39,500 --> 01:44:43,400
various elements and they 
chemically react and turn into 

1978
01:44:43,400 --> 01:44:46,500
one thing and then they 
chemically then they that 

1979
01:44:46,500 --> 01:44:51,200
reverses and the exact time it 
just it does this by itself 

1980
01:44:51,200 --> 01:44:55,800
effectively, right? 
And it oscillates and so there's

1981
01:44:55,800 --> 01:44:59,100
a bunch of different you know 
there's the this and and that 

1982
01:44:59,100 --> 01:45:02,600
that happens and the details of 
how they happen for example. 

1983
01:45:02,700 --> 01:45:04,800
Emerge under the constraints of 
the various tasks. 

1984
01:45:04,800 --> 01:45:07,000
So the size of the container 
matters, right? 

1985
01:45:07,000 --> 01:45:09,000
If you put it in, put these 
liquids into a really big 

1986
01:45:09,000 --> 01:45:11,500
container where there's no, you 
know, with it with the liquid 

1987
01:45:11,500 --> 01:45:12,900
doesn't brush up against the 
edges. 

1988
01:45:12,900 --> 01:45:17,500
For example, then you don't get 
these kinds of reactions, the 

1989
01:45:17,600 --> 01:45:19,800
temperature of it, obviously 
matters how much you put in with

1990
01:45:19,800 --> 01:45:21,300
all these for the kind of 
physical constraints that you 

1991
01:45:21,300 --> 01:45:23,300
can vary. 
But basically you just get this 

1992
01:45:23,300 --> 01:45:26,200
kind of interesting nonlinear 
and and you get this nonlinear 

1993
01:45:26,200 --> 01:45:28,900
kind of behavior of it. 
There's many ways of 

1994
01:45:29,200 --> 01:45:31,200
mathematically, characterizing, 
the behavior of those. 

1995
01:45:31,200 --> 01:45:34,200
And there's numbers that tell 
you things about, you know, how 

1996
01:45:34,200 --> 01:45:36,100
these things are, how the 
various components of couple to 

1997
01:45:36,100 --> 01:45:40,600
one another and, and rates of 
reaction, and all kinds of 

1998
01:45:40,600 --> 01:45:43,400
things that are just kind of 
more Dynamic than numbers that 

1999
01:45:43,400 --> 01:45:47,700
enable you to assess these. 
So, one of the things that the 

2000
01:45:47,700 --> 01:45:51,000
ecological approach does is 
because we're because we're 

2001
01:45:51,000 --> 01:45:55,600
going the ecological approach 
Gibson's, big Insight was to 

2002
01:45:55,600 --> 01:45:59,800
spend a large amount of time. 
Characterizing the problem faced

2003
01:45:59,800 --> 01:46:01,900
by Theory of perception and 
action, right? 

2004
01:46:01,900 --> 01:46:05,500
And that's that's one of his 
major contributions is that it 

2005
01:46:05,500 --> 01:46:07,100
didn't just jump in. 
Trying to figure out how it 

2006
01:46:07,100 --> 01:46:09,000
worked. 
He spent a great deal of time. 

2007
01:46:09,000 --> 01:46:11,900
Trying to figure out how to 
succeed correctly, characterize 

2008
01:46:11,900 --> 01:46:15,600
the nature of the problem that 
we're trying to study because we

2009
01:46:15,600 --> 01:46:17,400
do that. 
If you start with a particular 

2010
01:46:17,400 --> 01:46:21,300
understanding of the problem 
instead of like I say, just gets

2011
01:46:21,300 --> 01:46:23,900
back to the same old thing 
instead of just taking your data

2012
01:46:23,900 --> 01:46:25,700
and jamming it through the 
analysis technique. 

2013
01:46:25,700 --> 01:46:28,300
But you know, ecological 
psychologists have been Been at 

2014
01:46:28,300 --> 01:46:31,700
the Forefront of going and 
looking for numbers that are 

2015
01:46:31,700 --> 01:46:35,100
appropriate for studying this 
kind of system, once you know 

2016
01:46:35,100 --> 01:46:38,600
what kind of system it is. 
And it's like well and the 

2017
01:46:38,600 --> 01:46:40,100
immediate thing is well you 
know, there's no point in 

2018
01:46:40,108 --> 01:46:42,800
running an over on it because 
it's just assuming some sort of 

2019
01:46:42,808 --> 01:46:44,900
linearity. 
What I actually want to know is 

2020
01:46:44,900 --> 01:46:46,500
something that needs. 
I need a different kind of 

2021
01:46:46,500 --> 01:46:49,200
number and so we go. 
I wonder if anybody else has 

2022
01:46:49,200 --> 01:46:52,300
ever done anything like this. 
And then you go well, who 

2023
01:46:52,300 --> 01:46:54,100
studies dynamical systems? 
Well, there's a bunch of 

2024
01:46:54,100 --> 01:46:57,200
physicists and chemists chemists
kinases chemists have been doing

2025
01:46:57,200 --> 01:46:59,200
these various things. 
Let's go see if they've got any 

2026
01:46:59,200 --> 01:47:01,100
numbers. 
And so we are looking for other 

2027
01:47:01,200 --> 01:47:06,000
other numbers from other fields 
and we're quite happy to go grab

2028
01:47:06,000 --> 01:47:08,400
and there's tons of them. 
And you know, it's one of the 

2029
01:47:08,400 --> 01:47:10,800
things I would quite like, 
actually the field to get a 

2030
01:47:10,800 --> 01:47:16,200
little bit more organized around
is producing like this, this 

2031
01:47:16,200 --> 01:47:18,200
expertise are distributed 
throughout the field. 

2032
01:47:18,200 --> 01:47:21,600
I think and different people are
different expertise, and I would

2033
01:47:21,600 --> 01:47:24,600
be quite nice to kind of 
consolidate at have a bit more 

2034
01:47:24,600 --> 01:47:27,300
about to provide people, like 
yourself for example, with a bit

2035
01:47:27,300 --> 01:47:30,300
of a pass. 
Both of we went looking for a 

2036
01:47:30,308 --> 01:47:32,700
number that enabled us to ask 
and answer this kind of 

2037
01:47:32,700 --> 01:47:33,900
question. 
And we found this one. 

2038
01:47:33,900 --> 01:47:37,700
This one and this one so that 
you can just do when you come 

2039
01:47:37,700 --> 01:47:39,200
along and have that kind of 
question. 

2040
01:47:39,200 --> 01:47:41,900
You've got a slightly shorter 
syrup, I think that would 

2041
01:47:41,900 --> 01:47:43,400
certainly be something that 
would be useful. 

2042
01:47:44,800 --> 01:47:48,600
But the moral of the story is, 
when you do is you, this is you 

2043
01:47:48,600 --> 01:47:51,600
have to do what Gibson? 
Did you have to start correctly?

2044
01:47:51,600 --> 01:47:55,000
Characterizing the problem and 
fronting up to the full 

2045
01:47:55,200 --> 01:47:58,800
complexity of it. 
And then you ask questions about

2046
01:47:58,800 --> 01:48:01,100
how you go about measuring it. 
In order to figure out how it 

2047
01:48:01,100 --> 01:48:02,500
works. 
Why don't you the long as you do

2048
01:48:02,500 --> 01:48:04,600
it in that order? 
Then you're asking your least 

2049
01:48:04,600 --> 01:48:08,800
going on? 
I mean, cuz I think that's where

2050
01:48:08,800 --> 01:48:12,100
the the challenges like, I mean,
we're a minute or hour 40 into 

2051
01:48:12,100 --> 01:48:15,600
this and like you just hit on it
like a core concept because I've

2052
01:48:15,600 --> 01:48:19,000
been thinking about like what 
are the Core Concepts that that 

2053
01:48:19,000 --> 01:48:20,700
really Drive in ecological 
approach? 

2054
01:48:20,700 --> 01:48:24,700
And I think a lot of people like
One misconception. 

2055
01:48:25,200 --> 01:48:28,100
I've seen somebody put out there
for for what an ecological 

2056
01:48:28,100 --> 01:48:32,200
approach is is oh you just make 
it more game like yeah or and 

2057
01:48:32,200 --> 01:48:36,200
I'm just like well it's not 
actually what an you'll approach

2058
01:48:36,200 --> 01:48:38,700
is like it's about the 
performer. 

2059
01:48:38,700 --> 01:48:41,500
Environment relationship 
mediated by information like 

2060
01:48:41,500 --> 01:48:44,200
this information or energy 
exchange like and it's mutually 

2061
01:48:44,200 --> 01:48:45,600
reciprocal. 
Yes. 

2062
01:48:45,600 --> 01:48:50,500
And it's that then motivates oh 
some game like stuff might be a 

2063
01:48:50,508 --> 01:48:52,600
good idea, right? 
That's the trick, right? 

2064
01:48:52,600 --> 01:48:56,000
I wasn't let's go game like and 
we dragged everything else along

2065
01:48:56,000 --> 01:48:58,500
with it, it was going more. 
Game-like. 

2066
01:48:58,500 --> 01:49:01,100
Seems like the kind of seems 
like it might be a better way of

2067
01:49:01,100 --> 01:49:02,700
engaging with this kind of 
system. 

2068
01:49:03,400 --> 01:49:06,200
Well especially if the whole 
purpose is perception action 

2069
01:49:06,200 --> 01:49:10,300
coupling and the fact of 
Attunement like to get that 

2070
01:49:10,300 --> 01:49:12,900
perception action, coupling you 
need to be attuned while and 

2071
01:49:12,900 --> 01:49:14,000
then you also have to add in 
color. 

2072
01:49:14,000 --> 01:49:17,400
Like this is where it's like I 
struggle immensely to be able to

2073
01:49:17,400 --> 01:49:21,900
deliver to somebody in this 
short simplistic way, all these 

2074
01:49:21,900 --> 01:49:25,200
things because I can't give you 
like, if I just simply told you 

2075
01:49:25,200 --> 01:49:29,100
that first line organism 
environment relationship, 

2076
01:49:29,100 --> 01:49:32,500
mediated by information 
recipient like that, you're 

2077
01:49:32,500 --> 01:49:34,400
leaving out. 
Other huge element that doesn't 

2078
01:49:34,400 --> 01:49:39,600
get you from there to more 
representative practice design. 

2079
01:49:39,700 --> 01:49:42,400
You need the Attunement piece 
and then you also need this 

2080
01:49:42,600 --> 01:49:45,300
calibration, like all these 
things are layered in there and 

2081
01:49:45,500 --> 01:49:52,100
this is where for me it's like I
somehow need to be able to help 

2082
01:49:52,100 --> 01:49:56,600
people understand. 
Like the appeal of it. 

2083
01:49:56,600 --> 01:50:01,600
So to back up into maybe I don't
know what we want to close on 

2084
01:50:01,600 --> 01:50:04,100
because I want to be respectful 
of your time as we could go on 

2085
01:50:04,100 --> 01:50:07,300
for for quite a while here. 
Plus the plus, these other guys 

2086
01:50:07,300 --> 01:50:08,900
have may want to jump in with 
something. 

2087
01:50:09,000 --> 01:50:14,000
I mean, I do want to potentially
hit on the whole like Because we

2088
01:50:14,000 --> 01:50:17,100
got, we started touching on it 
and I took a different 

2089
01:50:17,100 --> 01:50:18,600
affordance. 
It went backwards in time 

2090
01:50:18,600 --> 01:50:21,700
instead of going in the 
direction where we were at of 

2091
01:50:21,800 --> 01:50:24,300
your, you know, we're talking 
about like predictive models, 

2092
01:50:24,700 --> 01:50:29,700
you know, for scouting and Etc. 
So, if these things exist and we

2093
01:50:29,700 --> 01:50:32,800
use them, you know, to some 
extent. 

2094
01:50:32,800 --> 01:50:34,700
Like there's there's utility and
using them. 

2095
01:50:34,900 --> 01:50:38,500
Why is it inappropriate to then?
Take that notion that? 

2096
01:50:38,500 --> 01:50:41,900
Because we use something like a 
predictive model and whatever 

2097
01:50:42,100 --> 01:50:46,300
for Be able to do things in life
and to make decisions and to 

2098
01:50:46,308 --> 01:50:48,900
base our actions on. 
Why is that a poor use? 

2099
01:50:49,000 --> 01:50:53,800
When it comes to how we, you 
know, begin to interact with 

2100
01:50:53,800 --> 01:50:56,600
like when it comes to sports and
like, you know, because people 

2101
01:50:56,600 --> 01:50:59,500
have talked about, like the 
brain is a prediction machine, 

2102
01:50:59,500 --> 01:51:02,900
like it's designed to predict. 
And I've even in the 4E space, 

2103
01:51:02,900 --> 01:51:05,100
I've heard a little bit of like,
well, the brain actually 

2104
01:51:05,100 --> 01:51:08,800
predicts something like its 
internal State, whatever. 

2105
01:51:08,800 --> 01:51:13,000
And so like it. 
And so I'm like, okay, I can see

2106
01:51:13,000 --> 01:51:15,000
a little bit. 
Where you're going, but this is 

2107
01:51:15,000 --> 01:51:19,300
where I guess again I'm trying 
to as soon as you give an 

2108
01:51:19,300 --> 01:51:22,300
opening, somebody who is for a 
predictive model is going to 

2109
01:51:22,300 --> 01:51:24,200
stay there. 
And so that's where I'm like, 

2110
01:51:24,200 --> 01:51:29,300
how do you build a good case for
perspective control versus 

2111
01:51:29,800 --> 01:51:32,500
here's here's my take on that 
because it's a good question. 

2112
01:51:33,200 --> 01:51:35,300
My take is that? 
Yeah, so you can do prediction 

2113
01:51:36,900 --> 01:51:41,000
under certain circumstances but 
the things you need to know and 

2114
01:51:41,000 --> 01:51:43,300
the things you need to be able 
to do in order to be able to do 

2115
01:51:43,500 --> 01:51:46,200
Fiction and not the kinds of 
things that proceeding acting 

2116
01:51:46,200 --> 01:51:50,900
organisms are able to do when 
they're acting, right? 

2117
01:51:50,900 --> 01:51:54,500
So in order to be able to make 
an, excuse me, not to be able to

2118
01:51:54,500 --> 01:51:56,800
make predictions. 
As your baseball Scout, you have

2119
01:51:56,800 --> 01:52:00,100
to take a bunch of measures off 
of a person and then relate them

2120
01:52:00,100 --> 01:52:03,000
to a bunch, of course, toward 
set of knowledge about a bunch 

2121
01:52:03,000 --> 01:52:05,000
of other things and how those 
things relate to Future 

2122
01:52:05,000 --> 01:52:09,000
performance. 
And so the evidence shows that 

2123
01:52:09,000 --> 01:52:11,300
actually, that's not what 
organisms do the evidence 

2124
01:52:11,300 --> 01:52:14,200
actually shows, the evidence is 
very strong Wrong for Prospect 

2125
01:52:14,200 --> 01:52:18,000
control, at least on that. 
And, you know, ongoing actual 

2126
01:52:18,000 --> 01:52:22,100
perception, action Loops you 
don't see any you whe, When you 

2127
01:52:22,100 --> 01:52:25,200
go comparing these things, you 
see you don't see any evidence 

2128
01:52:25,200 --> 01:52:26,700
of broken. 
Why? 

2129
01:52:27,100 --> 01:52:29,000
Because the things you need to 
be able to do to be able, to 

2130
01:52:29,000 --> 01:52:31,900
predict organisms, can't do, 
don't hate you. 

2131
01:52:31,900 --> 01:52:33,800
Don't have access to all that 
information. 

2132
01:52:33,800 --> 01:52:36,900
You don't have. 
And so, can you give a concrete 

2133
01:52:36,900 --> 01:52:40,700
example for the nice ears? 
So, right, well, there's a 

2134
01:52:40,800 --> 01:52:42,300
right. 
There's a concrete example. 

2135
01:52:42,500 --> 01:52:46,400
It's my favorite concrete. 
The fundamental sort of idea of 

2136
01:52:46,400 --> 01:52:49,000
prospect of control. 
Is that right? 

2137
01:52:49,000 --> 01:52:52,900
So say the classic experiment 
for this from 20 years ago. 

2138
01:52:52,900 --> 01:52:56,300
So is you've got your hand, 
you're on a slider and removing 

2139
01:52:56,300 --> 01:52:59,000
it from side to side and your 
job is to intercept an incoming 

2140
01:52:59,000 --> 01:53:01,200
Target, right? 
And so what you do is you have a

2141
01:53:01,200 --> 01:53:04,400
look at the pattern of the 
movement as the as the targets 

2142
01:53:04,400 --> 01:53:08,600
coming in and you compared to 
two possible ways of doing this.

2143
01:53:08,600 --> 01:53:10,900
The prediction model is that you
can see it coming. 

2144
01:53:10,900 --> 01:53:15,300
And so you predict where the 
thing is going to Go and move to

2145
01:53:15,300 --> 01:53:16,700
there. 
Because why would you do 

2146
01:53:16,700 --> 01:53:18,500
anything else? 
If you successfully predicted, 

2147
01:53:18,500 --> 01:53:21,000
whether things are going to go 
and you want to intercept it? 

2148
01:53:21,200 --> 01:53:23,000
Why would you do anything else, 
right? 

2149
01:53:23,100 --> 01:53:26,000
So what you should do if you're 
predicting a simple move to 

2150
01:53:26,000 --> 01:53:30,300
where you predict the thing is 
going to go the prospect of 

2151
01:53:30,300 --> 01:53:32,600
controllers about coupling 
yourself to an information 

2152
01:53:32,600 --> 01:53:36,100
variable and if you have a look 
you can you can if you can take 

2153
01:53:36,100 --> 01:53:39,600
a candidate information variable
and you can plot out the value 

2154
01:53:39,700 --> 01:53:41,600
of that information variable 
over time. 

2155
01:53:41,900 --> 01:53:44,900
And what you can find is that 
that You know, as it changes its

2156
01:53:44,900 --> 01:53:47,500
value over time. 
As the thing approaches you that

2157
01:53:47,500 --> 01:53:50,100
variable tells you that you 
should be doing something. 

2158
01:53:50,800 --> 01:53:53,000
And so, you get these two 
predictions, either you go 

2159
01:53:53,000 --> 01:53:57,300
somewhere on and get ready to 
get something or you move and 

2160
01:53:57,300 --> 01:53:59,200
response to the value of this 
variable. 

2161
01:53:59,600 --> 01:54:01,600
And one of the weird things 
about these, nice interception 

2162
01:54:01,600 --> 01:54:05,200
tasks is that, if you are doing 
Prospect of control the 

2163
01:54:05,200 --> 01:54:07,400
information, the way the 
information variables change 

2164
01:54:07,400 --> 01:54:09,900
over time, you often end up 
getting what's called a movement

2165
01:54:09,900 --> 01:54:12,500
reversal, required by the 
information variable. 

2166
01:54:12,500 --> 01:54:14,300
Where are you /? 
Sure Shoot where you need to be 

2167
01:54:14,300 --> 01:54:17,200
and you have to come back and 
that's dictated just by the 

2168
01:54:17,200 --> 01:54:20,500
value of the information 
variable movement reversals are 

2169
01:54:20,500 --> 01:54:22,000
a dumb idea. 
If you're if you're doing 

2170
01:54:22,000 --> 01:54:25,800
prediction, why would you why 
would you predict to the wrong 

2171
01:54:25,800 --> 01:54:28,100
place? 
The why would you make a 

2172
01:54:28,108 --> 01:54:30,700
prediction, go to the wrong 
place and then have to come back

2173
01:54:30,700 --> 01:54:34,200
to it, right? 
Takes too much time and one of 

2174
01:54:34,200 --> 01:54:36,200
the one of the signatures of 
process of the existence of 

2175
01:54:36,200 --> 01:54:38,400
prospect of controls. 
The fact that movement reversal 

2176
01:54:38,400 --> 01:54:41,900
show up all the time and 
interception text, right? 

2177
01:54:41,900 --> 01:54:44,900
You can be doing a simple task. 
This in the lab you can be a 

2178
01:54:44,900 --> 01:54:49,800
goalkeeper so Kathy Craig does a
lot of really cool work around 

2179
01:54:50,200 --> 01:54:54,600
goalkeepers and soccer where if 
you watch a goalkeeper they'll 

2180
01:54:54,600 --> 01:54:56,700
often go that way and then come 
back that way. 

2181
01:54:57,300 --> 01:55:02,000
But good goalkeepers don't start
moving until later so that they 

2182
01:55:02,500 --> 01:55:05,200
wait until the information 
doesn't end until the 

2183
01:55:05,200 --> 01:55:06,900
information is gone. 
Past the point where it's going 

2184
01:55:06,900 --> 01:55:10,800
to require a reversal because it
means that they can then move 

2185
01:55:10,800 --> 01:55:13,300
more quickly, but then they have
to move more quickly. 

2186
01:55:13,400 --> 01:55:15,200
Lee because they've got less 
time to respond. 

2187
01:55:15,200 --> 01:55:16,600
So there's all kinds of 
interesting things. 

2188
01:55:17,200 --> 01:55:20,800
So the base of all the evidence 
showed basically you get a 

2189
01:55:20,800 --> 01:55:26,300
movement reversal if you are 
assembling your behavior in real

2190
01:55:26,300 --> 01:55:28,200
time, as a function of the 
constraints that you have 

2191
01:55:28,200 --> 01:55:31,600
available to you, right? 
And if you are if you are 

2192
01:55:31,600 --> 01:55:35,200
assembling your behavior out of 
a series of constraints and as 

2193
01:55:35,200 --> 01:55:37,500
those constraints change and 
evolve over time, then that 

2194
01:55:37,500 --> 01:55:40,100
projects a very particular way 
of getting to where you're going

2195
01:55:40,100 --> 01:55:44,800
to go and the evidence you know.
Liability and regularly shows 

2196
01:55:44,800 --> 01:55:46,400
that that's what you're doing, 
right? 

2197
01:55:46,500 --> 01:55:49,000
We're as if you're predicting, 
then you would do something 

2198
01:55:49,000 --> 01:55:51,300
different. 
You get all kinds of examples 

2199
01:55:51,300 --> 01:55:54,200
about this is the classic is the
outfielder problem, right? 

2200
01:55:54,200 --> 01:55:58,600
How do you go about tracking a 
and catching a Fly ball, right? 

2201
01:55:59,300 --> 01:56:01,800
And you know, the evidence is 
all in favor of some sort of 

2202
01:56:01,800 --> 01:56:05,500
information coupling because the
shit this is the difference 

2203
01:56:05,500 --> 01:56:06,700
again. 
Actually this is the other big 

2204
01:56:06,700 --> 01:56:11,000
difference a predictive account 
tells you an outcome. 

2205
01:56:11,300 --> 01:56:14,800
You will end up here. 
The prospect of account tells, 

2206
01:56:14,800 --> 01:56:18,100
you sure you'll end up there, 
but you'll get there via this 

2207
01:56:18,100 --> 01:56:21,700
particular pattern, this 
particular path because you have

2208
01:56:21,700 --> 01:56:23,700
coupled yourself to an 
information variable that's 

2209
01:56:23,700 --> 01:56:27,800
changing in a certain way. 
So it's a it's an out, it's an 

2210
01:56:27,800 --> 01:56:31,400
outcome versus process of 
production and the trick is that

2211
01:56:31,400 --> 01:56:34,200
for a long time, people only 
measured outcomes but other 

2212
01:56:34,200 --> 01:56:36,300
people arrived, at the same time
they must be predicting. 

2213
01:56:36,300 --> 01:56:39,400
It's the only way to get to the 
Future State, then they started 

2214
01:56:39,400 --> 01:56:41,700
looking at process. 
How did they get to that 

2215
01:56:41,700 --> 01:56:44,300
particular point and the The 
devil is in the detail. 

2216
01:56:44,300 --> 01:56:47,300
The devil was in the how. 
So, if you want to convince 

2217
01:56:47,300 --> 01:56:49,600
people about these things, you 
have to get people out of the 

2218
01:56:49,600 --> 01:56:52,200
mindset of. 
What did they do? 

2219
01:56:52,200 --> 01:56:54,300
What to do? 
You know, where did the person 

2220
01:56:54,300 --> 01:56:59,600
end up and the evidence in favor
of prospects of control, is in 

2221
01:56:59,600 --> 01:57:02,100
the, how did they get to that 
particular place? 

2222
01:57:02,100 --> 01:57:04,300
Right. 
And then exactly how they got 

2223
01:57:04,300 --> 01:57:05,900
there. 
That gives you information or 

2224
01:57:05,900 --> 01:57:11,400
that tells you about which 
information variable and so a 

2225
01:57:11,400 --> 01:57:15,100
big chunk of this is effectively
what that Tells me is that 

2226
01:57:15,100 --> 01:57:18,300
perspective, control people do 
prospective control because 

2227
01:57:18,300 --> 01:57:21,300
that's all they can do all the 
time. 

2228
01:57:21,400 --> 01:57:27,300
The only thing we are able to do
is to is to organize a various 

2229
01:57:27,300 --> 01:57:30,700
components, under the operation,
of all the various constraints 

2230
01:57:30,700 --> 01:57:32,900
that are operating on the Sony. 
Some of those constraints are 

2231
01:57:32,900 --> 01:57:36,100
physical things like gravity. 
Some of them are dynamical. 

2232
01:57:36,100 --> 01:57:38,200
Properties of are, some of them 
are perceptual and 

2233
01:57:38,200 --> 01:57:40,400
informational, right? 
But you bring all of those 

2234
01:57:40,400 --> 01:57:44,600
things together. 
Behavior emerges out of That and

2235
01:57:44,600 --> 01:57:47,400
there's lots of reasons to think
that that's the behavior is 

2236
01:57:47,407 --> 01:57:50,700
emerging out of its coalition's 
of constraints and the predictor

2237
01:57:50,700 --> 01:57:52,600
versus perspective controls the 
jest. 

2238
01:57:53,100 --> 01:57:57,800
But it can't possibly be 
anything else because Movement 

2239
01:57:57,800 --> 01:58:00,900
rehearsals are a costly right 
perspective control makes you 

2240
01:58:01,100 --> 01:58:04,500
have to move further, which 
means you might not get there in

2241
01:58:04,500 --> 01:58:07,000
time for example. 
So if you could predict maybe it

2242
01:58:07,000 --> 01:58:09,300
would be better and the fact 
that people don't do it as a bit

2243
01:58:09,300 --> 01:58:13,000
of a head that maybe they can't.
Maybe people don't have access 

2244
01:58:13,000 --> 01:58:16,100
to all the things you need to be
able to do in order to do a 

2245
01:58:16,100 --> 01:58:20,100
prediction. 
Maybe always got us access to a 

2246
01:58:20,100 --> 01:58:22,400
bunch of things that are the 
kinds of things that enabled you

2247
01:58:22,400 --> 01:58:27,200
to do prospected for. 
All right, so yeah, I tend to 

2248
01:58:27,200 --> 01:58:30,400
take all of those that kind of 
experimental evidence as fairly 

2249
01:58:30,400 --> 01:58:34,700
strong evidence that we've got 
no choice but doing Prospect of 

2250
01:58:34,700 --> 01:58:40,000
control, because we don't have 
access to the required, to, I 

2251
01:58:40,000 --> 01:58:43,200
think you answered this, but I 
think people might have glossed 

2252
01:58:43,200 --> 01:58:46,100
over it. 
The one of the reasons that 

2253
01:58:46,100 --> 01:58:52,600
people Are attracted to the 
predictive model is because of 

2254
01:58:52,600 --> 01:58:54,400
the fact of like processing 
delays. 

2255
01:58:54,400 --> 01:58:57,400
Like how long it takes because, 
right, it's this because there's

2256
01:58:57,400 --> 01:59:01,000
a couple of things on that of 
like, okay, you have your motor 

2257
01:59:01,000 --> 01:59:04,400
visual delay, but also, there's 
also this assumption that the 

2258
01:59:04,400 --> 01:59:08,100
brain is the thing that causes 
everything to happen, right? 

2259
01:59:08,100 --> 01:59:11,400
So like you send like, it has to
be triggered first from the 

2260
01:59:11,400 --> 01:59:14,400
brain and I don't think that's 
actually how it works. 

2261
01:59:14,400 --> 01:59:17,300
And I haven't, you know, like 
I've understood certain things. 

2262
01:59:17,500 --> 01:59:20,600
Maybe like an, I haven't found 
the the research, but I thought 

2263
01:59:20,600 --> 01:59:23,300
there was something talking 
about how oftentimes the system 

2264
01:59:23,300 --> 01:59:28,200
can can respond locally first. 
And then I also heard like David

2265
01:59:28,200 --> 01:59:32,100
Stone talked about this often 
times to the brain, will simply 

2266
01:59:32,100 --> 01:59:35,600
come in to check whether or not 
what, what, what actually did 

2267
01:59:35,600 --> 01:59:37,700
like was what you was towards 
your end. 

2268
01:59:37,800 --> 01:59:41,000
And this is, I guess the other 
element to of like even by your 

2269
01:59:41,000 --> 01:59:42,700
response. 
Ask the question of like what do

2270
01:59:42,700 --> 01:59:45,900
you think the role of the brain 
is especially from an ecological

2271
01:59:45,900 --> 01:59:47,300
perspective of like, if there's 
no. 

2272
01:59:47,400 --> 01:59:51,800
Representations yet, we have 
this ability to imagine things 

2273
01:59:51,800 --> 01:59:54,300
like all these things is. 
This is why I think it's really 

2274
01:59:54,300 --> 01:59:57,300
hard for people to swallow the 
ecological perspective on this 

2275
01:59:57,300 --> 02:00:00,000
because of because it doesn't 
square with some of their own 

2276
02:00:00,000 --> 02:00:03,100
personal experience. 
And I think some of it has to do

2277
02:00:03,100 --> 02:00:05,700
with language though and it's 
the subtlety of language. 

2278
02:00:05,700 --> 02:00:08,700
Because even as you were talking
about predictive versus 

2279
02:00:09,000 --> 02:00:11,800
prospective, even in talking 
about the research, you use the 

2280
02:00:11,800 --> 02:00:15,300
word predictive if I understood 
correctly or prediction to even 

2281
02:00:15,300 --> 02:00:18,600
talk about the research in terms
of the research, Findings and 

2282
02:00:18,600 --> 02:00:22,500
that I think even confuses that 
even confuses people further. 

2283
02:00:22,600 --> 02:00:25,100
Like this is where like 
languages to what you talked 

2284
02:00:25,100 --> 02:00:27,000
about before earlier of like 
languages. 

2285
02:00:27,000 --> 02:00:31,400
This very complicated thing to 
work, through to communicate 

2286
02:00:31,400 --> 02:00:35,300
ideas to that, then shape 
Behavior because the whole 

2287
02:00:35,300 --> 02:00:37,700
reason to even because people 
are probably like, why does this

2288
02:00:37,700 --> 02:00:40,500
even matter? 
Because if you don't like it, 

2289
02:00:40,800 --> 02:00:43,200
why why it's so important to 
parse this out is because this 

2290
02:00:43,200 --> 02:00:46,400
actually shapes your behavior. 
What you do practically once you

2291
02:00:46,400 --> 02:00:49,500
do practically a Shape by your 
understanding by your beliefs. 

2292
02:00:49,800 --> 02:00:52,700
Like and if and that's why it's 
me it's so important to have 

2293
02:00:52,700 --> 02:00:57,000
this conversation into like 
really Ask people to pay 

2294
02:00:57,000 --> 02:01:01,000
attention to what is being said?
Yes. 

2295
02:01:02,500 --> 02:01:05,600
Which was July, which question 
is sorry. 

2296
02:01:06,000 --> 02:01:12,600
The addressing the The issue of 
the the motor visual delay and 

2297
02:01:12,600 --> 02:01:18,500
why people want to grab onto a 
predictive model to to deal with

2298
02:01:18,500 --> 02:01:22,200
that problem? 
Yeah, so the basic idea there 

2299
02:01:22,200 --> 02:01:24,400
comes from the, you know, the 
notion of just studying reaction

2300
02:01:24,400 --> 02:01:26,300
times, right? 
So I can show you a really 

2301
02:01:26,300 --> 02:01:29,100
simple setup where I facial life
and get you press a button and 

2302
02:01:29,108 --> 02:01:33,000
there's a delay that's right. 
And that seems to be the case. 

2303
02:01:33,000 --> 02:01:37,700
There is tight takes time for 
information to enter the eye and

2304
02:01:37,700 --> 02:01:39,300
get to the brain and then have 
that. 

2305
02:01:39,500 --> 02:01:44,900
Turned into into our response. 
And so part of the answer to 

2306
02:01:44,900 --> 02:01:47,800
that is well, that's us really 
boring tasks that you're asking 

2307
02:01:47,800 --> 02:01:49,800
the system to do, what happens 
if you ask it to do something 

2308
02:01:49,800 --> 02:01:52,100
more interesting. 
Like try and catch a fly ball, 

2309
02:01:52,100 --> 02:01:54,900
right? 
Or you know, try and catch a 

2310
02:01:54,900 --> 02:01:56,600
line drive. 
It's coming straight at you, 

2311
02:01:56,600 --> 02:01:58,700
right? 
And so, one of the things that's

2312
02:01:58,700 --> 02:02:00,300
really important to note, this 
is one of the things that the 

2313
02:02:00,300 --> 02:02:03,600
ecological approach likes to 
shift into this, to stop looking

2314
02:02:03,600 --> 02:02:07,100
at failures of system and start 
looking at successes because the

2315
02:02:07,100 --> 02:02:09,300
successes are actually quite 
interesting and informative. 

2316
02:02:09,500 --> 02:02:12,800
And actually the successes are 
the rule, not the exception, 

2317
02:02:12,800 --> 02:02:15,700
which is lucky because if they 
weren't, we would have died, 

2318
02:02:15,700 --> 02:02:18,200
right? 
So one of the really important 

2319
02:02:18,200 --> 02:02:19,900
things about this visual motor 
delay. 

2320
02:02:19,900 --> 02:02:23,900
Question is that if all of our 
experiences lagging, a couple 

2321
02:02:23,900 --> 02:02:25,700
hundred milliseconds behind 
reality. 

2322
02:02:25,700 --> 02:02:28,800
Then we're all dead. 
All the time, instant right. 

2323
02:02:29,400 --> 02:02:32,000
Cannot you cannot run a system 
like that, right? 

2324
02:02:32,000 --> 02:02:35,400
So two possible explanations 
one. 

2325
02:02:35,400 --> 02:02:37,700
Is that there isn't a delay, 
another is that there is a 

2326
02:02:37,700 --> 02:02:40,000
delay, but we're operating on 
some sort of Reproductive 

2327
02:02:40,000 --> 02:02:41,700
system, right? 
So the first of all, there's 

2328
02:02:41,700 --> 02:02:45,000
your motivation for having a 
productive system as of the 

2329
02:02:45,000 --> 02:02:47,700
existence of these delays. 
And the fact that we're not 

2330
02:02:47,700 --> 02:02:50,700
dead, seems to suggest that we 
need to be doing at least some 

2331
02:02:50,700 --> 02:02:52,100
sort of. 
So that's one of the 

2332
02:02:52,100 --> 02:02:54,800
motivations. 
Then the problem with 

2333
02:02:54,800 --> 02:02:57,400
predictions. 
And one of the key problems with

2334
02:02:57,400 --> 02:03:01,500
predictions is that they are 
probabilistic and can be wrong. 

2335
02:03:02,900 --> 02:03:06,300
And prediction is actually a 
very unstable way of controlling

2336
02:03:06,400 --> 02:03:10,600
a system, right? 
It's the kind of any of reach, 

2337
02:03:10,600 --> 02:03:13,300
if you start trying to implement
predictive controllers into 

2338
02:03:13,300 --> 02:03:15,800
robots and things like that. 
And various kinds of 

2339
02:03:15,800 --> 02:03:20,700
controllers, you can do it under
very constrained circumstances 

2340
02:03:21,100 --> 02:03:24,600
but you get quite unstable 
Behavior out of that system, 

2341
02:03:24,600 --> 02:03:27,700
right? 
And it's really easy to, to 

2342
02:03:28,100 --> 02:03:32,500
like, you have to build like I 
say, prediction requires Access 

2343
02:03:32,500 --> 02:03:34,500
to quite a lot of information, 
right? 

2344
02:03:34,500 --> 02:03:37,700
This is Dan Dennett calls this a
loan of intelligence to every 

2345
02:03:37,700 --> 02:03:39,800
Refreshments. 
All right, these kinds of 

2346
02:03:39,800 --> 02:03:43,100
systems need to have a lot of 
intelligence and capability loan

2347
02:03:43,100 --> 02:03:46,900
given to them somehow. 
And part of the problem is, 

2348
02:03:46,900 --> 02:03:48,700
where did that one come from, 
right? 

2349
02:03:48,700 --> 02:03:52,300
And it turns out that a lot of 
those loans don't have a good 

2350
02:03:52,300 --> 02:03:57,100
explanation, it's not clear how 
you give the system access to 

2351
02:03:57,100 --> 02:04:00,100
the information that needs in 
order to be able to make 

2352
02:04:00,100 --> 02:04:03,100
anything like that. 
So that's part of it. 

2353
02:04:03,100 --> 02:04:06,600
Then the other part of it is 
well just because my reaction 

2354
02:04:06,600 --> 02:04:11,300
time in this one boring task is 
a certain that simple tap 

2355
02:04:11,600 --> 02:04:14,200
measuring reaction time in a 
really simple task, doesn't mean

2356
02:04:14,200 --> 02:04:16,700
you've measured true Reaction 
Time by stripping out all the 

2357
02:04:16,700 --> 02:04:18,500
other stuff. 
Remember what I said? 

2358
02:04:18,600 --> 02:04:20,500
Behavior is task-specific what 
you've done. 

2359
02:04:20,500 --> 02:04:23,300
Is you've measured reaction time
in a very boring, very simple 

2360
02:04:23,300 --> 02:04:26,100
setup, but there isn't any 
possibility of prospector 

2361
02:04:26,100 --> 02:04:29,000
control right? 
Because there is no time varying

2362
02:04:29,000 --> 02:04:30,900
information, right? 
There's just a light comes on 

2363
02:04:31,700 --> 02:04:33,500
Draw an idol is nothing but your
tracking. 

2364
02:04:33,900 --> 02:04:35,600
So your reaction, time to 
intercept. 

2365
02:04:35,600 --> 02:04:38,300
Something like a line drive is 
actually a completely different 

2366
02:04:38,300 --> 02:04:40,800
task, right? 
Completely different task. 

2367
02:04:40,800 --> 02:04:44,400
Your coupling yourself to 
information about the motion of 

2368
02:04:44,400 --> 02:04:47,400
a ball that is continuously 
available, and removing 

2369
02:04:47,400 --> 02:04:49,600
different lens and the inertial 
properties of those rules. 

2370
02:04:50,800 --> 02:04:53,300
So, the other big thing is that 
just because you can give visual

2371
02:04:53,300 --> 02:04:56,300
motor delays, and some tasks 
doesn't mean that that's the 

2372
02:04:56,300 --> 02:04:59,000
rule, that just means that 
that's the context in that task.

2373
02:04:59,100 --> 02:05:02,200
And if you made the task, so 
boring that A delay was 

2374
02:05:02,200 --> 02:05:05,700
inevitable that's on you the 
experimenter not necessarily on 

2375
02:05:05,700 --> 02:05:07,800
the organism, right? 
So the question is, what happens

2376
02:05:07,800 --> 02:05:11,100
if you provide people with 
access to the ability to do 

2377
02:05:11,100 --> 02:05:13,200
perspective control? 
Like so what happens when you 

2378
02:05:13,200 --> 02:05:15,300
track people and figure out how 
they catch fly balls? 

2379
02:05:15,600 --> 02:05:18,900
Well, a couple themselves 
information variables so that 

2380
02:05:18,900 --> 02:05:21,500
their movements are organized 
with respect to some future 

2381
02:05:21,500 --> 02:05:24,100
state. 
So the present value of the 

2382
02:05:24,100 --> 02:05:26,000
unfolding of these things over 
time. 

2383
02:05:26,800 --> 02:05:29,400
So you know there's other things
going on here, right? 

2384
02:05:29,400 --> 02:05:31,400
You mentioned sort of local 
solutions to things. 

2385
02:05:31,600 --> 02:05:35,800
So one of the ways in which I 
move my arm has to do with just 

2386
02:05:35,800 --> 02:05:37,600
the local dynamics of the arm, 
right? 

2387
02:05:37,600 --> 02:05:40,300
Not my nervous system, doesn't 
have to tell my arm to do 

2388
02:05:40,300 --> 02:05:41,600
everything. 
All right. 

2389
02:05:41,600 --> 02:05:44,200
There's a whole model of say 
rhythmic movement and 

2390
02:05:44,300 --> 02:05:47,900
oscillating, limb movement, or 
the equilibrium point 

2391
02:05:47,900 --> 02:05:49,300
hypothesis. 
And there's a, bolo 

2392
02:05:49,300 --> 02:05:51,500
physiological evidence. 
This is how the nervous system 

2393
02:05:51,500 --> 02:05:54,900
is organized there, where the 
brain doesn't have to say move 

2394
02:05:54,900 --> 02:05:56,200
here. 
Move here, move here, move here.

2395
02:05:56,200 --> 02:05:59,100
Move the movie as I say, you 
know, wrote about a motor 

2396
02:05:59,100 --> 02:06:03,900
program, Yeah, no. 
You just have to go get you. 

2397
02:06:03,900 --> 02:06:07,100
All you have to do, is my arm 
right now is set at a particular

2398
02:06:07,100 --> 02:06:09,100
balance point. 
My brain just goes change the 

2399
02:06:09,100 --> 02:06:11,100
balance point and the art and 
the local Dynamics. 

2400
02:06:11,100 --> 02:06:14,300
Take care of the rest, right? 
So, there's a big chunk of of 

2401
02:06:14,300 --> 02:06:16,900
our behavior on the straps of 
the detailed structure of their 

2402
02:06:16,900 --> 02:06:19,800
behavior that is taken care of 
at the local level, and have 

2403
02:06:19,800 --> 02:06:22,400
just has to do with the dynamic 
organization at that local 

2404
02:06:22,400 --> 02:06:24,300
level. 
So, that's another thing. 

2405
02:06:24,500 --> 02:06:28,300
Another thing there is when you 
go looking at the brain and 

2406
02:06:28,300 --> 02:06:30,800
considering it in terms of its 
Network, Structure. 

2407
02:06:31,600 --> 02:06:33,700
There's all kinds of interesting
Network structures. 

2408
02:06:33,700 --> 02:06:36,700
Things called motifs, right? 
So I Motif as a particular as a 

2409
02:06:37,100 --> 02:06:39,900
particular Network organization,
designed to achieve a certain 

2410
02:06:40,000 --> 02:06:44,300
functional outcome for a brand 
Network and you can build 

2411
02:06:44,300 --> 02:06:48,000
motifs, which are network 
organizations that couple two 

2412
02:06:48,000 --> 02:06:50,400
distinct spatially distinct 
parts of the network and the 

2413
02:06:50,400 --> 02:06:52,900
couple's them together with zero
timely, right? 

2414
02:06:53,100 --> 02:06:57,700
So there is neural solutions to 
these act textual Solutions, 

2415
02:06:57,700 --> 02:06:59,700
Network Solutions to these 
problems. 

2416
02:07:00,600 --> 02:07:02,900
And so on and so forth. 
So the problem for the issue is 

2417
02:07:02,900 --> 02:07:03,700
that yeah, sure. 
Right. 

2418
02:07:03,700 --> 02:07:08,000
You have went to front up and 
ask these questions about but at

2419
02:07:08,000 --> 02:07:10,500
all times the notion of a 
transmission delay in a visual 

2420
02:07:10,500 --> 02:07:12,900
motor delay. 
Being a problem is premised on 

2421
02:07:12,900 --> 02:07:16,800
the idea that behavior is a 
linear as the result of a lineal

2422
02:07:16,900 --> 02:07:20,000
causal chain of events, right? 
Where light comes into the eye, 

2423
02:07:20,200 --> 02:07:22,300
then has to do something else, 
then has to be something else, 

2424
02:07:22,300 --> 02:07:24,300
then has to be something else 
than has to come out as an 

2425
02:07:24,300 --> 02:07:26,800
output. 
That's not what's happening. 

2426
02:07:26,800 --> 02:07:29,000
What's actually going on? 
Is that you are a nonlinear 

2427
02:07:29,000 --> 02:07:33,400
dynamical system that gets up 
and running and then tunes into 

2428
02:07:33,900 --> 02:07:35,200
everything else that you're 
going on. 

2429
02:07:35,700 --> 02:07:37,300
That's going on in your 
environment. 

2430
02:07:37,600 --> 02:07:39,700
And that's happening at multiple
time, scales supported by 

2431
02:07:39,700 --> 02:07:42,500
multiple mechanisms. 
And so all of a sudden the 

2432
02:07:42,500 --> 02:07:47,300
problem becomes to write that 
processing delay is just becomes

2433
02:07:47,300 --> 02:07:49,900
an artifact of the tasks of an 
artifact of the organism. 

2434
02:07:50,600 --> 02:07:53,100
So effectively, what you have to
do is you just have to start 

2435
02:07:53,100 --> 02:07:55,100
asking more. 
Yeah, just ask different 

2436
02:07:55,100 --> 02:07:56,800
questions. 
Again the moral. 

2437
02:07:56,800 --> 02:08:00,800
So you you focus much more on 
process than outcome, right? 

2438
02:08:00,800 --> 02:08:04,700
You have to ask questions not 
about when did the thing react, 

2439
02:08:04,700 --> 02:08:07,300
but how did it go about reacting
on what was available to it to 

2440
02:08:07,308 --> 02:08:08,800
react? 
And what will the constraints 

2441
02:08:08,800 --> 02:08:11,000
that were operating on it? 
While it was act. 

2442
02:08:11,700 --> 02:08:18,200
So, it's all right, kind of 
bring this to sort of a close. 

2443
02:08:18,200 --> 02:08:20,500
It's kind of a, I'm a 
Minnesotan. 

2444
02:08:20,500 --> 02:08:22,300
So there's a thing called a 
Minnesota, goodbye. 

2445
02:08:22,300 --> 02:08:24,400
So, I don't know if you're 
familiar with that, but I'm 

2446
02:08:24,400 --> 02:08:27,100
going to kind of it. 
Basically you say goodbye and 

2447
02:08:27,100 --> 02:08:30,400
then you talk for 15 minutes and
then you say good-bye again and 

2448
02:08:30,400 --> 02:08:35,300
you talk and so we're going to 
its kind of what's Happening 

2449
02:08:35,300 --> 02:08:37,000
Here. 
I want to throw this over to 

2450
02:08:37,000 --> 02:08:40,900
both Robert and and Baker to see
like okay what thoughts? 

2451
02:08:40,900 --> 02:08:44,000
Because I've been kind of 
dominating the conversation. 

2452
02:08:44,000 --> 02:08:46,200
So I want to see if you guys 
have anything that you want to 

2453
02:08:46,200 --> 02:08:48,000
chime in on. 
Oh, wait. 

2454
02:08:48,900 --> 02:08:53,000
Okay, you sure I'll keep it 
short and sweet. 

2455
02:08:53,000 --> 02:09:01,200
I do not have anything bad. all 
right, so to kind of then Wrap 

2456
02:09:01,200 --> 02:09:04,900
up. 
What are some good resources 

2457
02:09:04,900 --> 02:09:08,400
that you would recommend people?
Like because obviously we can't 

2458
02:09:08,400 --> 02:09:10,400
cover everything. 
Like what are what are some 

2459
02:09:10,400 --> 02:09:12,900
things maybe to like that? 
You would like to say to like 

2460
02:09:12,900 --> 02:09:15,100
the community and then maybe 
it's specifically a baseball 

2461
02:09:15,100 --> 02:09:19,100
Community but probably just the 
community at large and and then 

2462
02:09:19,100 --> 02:09:21,500
like you know, next steps for 
people. 

2463
02:09:22,900 --> 02:09:26,100
So to the community and I just 
want to say that I think I think

2464
02:09:26,100 --> 02:09:29,200
the ecological approach has a 
lot to offer in terms of helping

2465
02:09:29,200 --> 02:09:34,500
you ask and answer the You want 
answers to, I really do believe 

2466
02:09:34,500 --> 02:09:37,300
that. 
I really believe that the people

2467
02:09:37,300 --> 02:09:40,500
who are working, you coaching 
and athletes and, you know, 

2468
02:09:40,500 --> 02:09:42,800
scientists and data analysts and
all those kind of things. 

2469
02:09:42,800 --> 02:09:45,800
Everybody's, everybody's working
in good faith, everybody's 

2470
02:09:45,800 --> 02:09:49,000
trying to do well by the people 
that they're working for and 

2471
02:09:49,000 --> 02:09:53,200
with and they're all trying to 
find ways to do to ask good 

2472
02:09:53,200 --> 02:09:54,900
questions and come up with good 
answers. 

2473
02:09:54,900 --> 02:09:56,900
That enable people to have a 
good practice. 

2474
02:09:56,900 --> 02:09:59,400
I think that's true. 
My own pitch here is that I 

2475
02:09:59,407 --> 02:10:03,500
think that the ecological Roach,
broadly speaking has a huge 

2476
02:10:03,500 --> 02:10:07,100
amount of offer that entire 
process in terms of figuring out

2477
02:10:07,100 --> 02:10:10,600
what what constitutes a good 
question, because our, what 

2478
02:10:10,600 --> 02:10:13,900
constitutes, a good measure of a
behavior that can actually tell 

2479
02:10:13,900 --> 02:10:15,800
you something. 
I think that there's loads of 

2480
02:10:17,100 --> 02:10:21,400
loads of value there to be had. 
And there would be, you know, 

2481
02:10:21,600 --> 02:10:25,700
part of part of my job is just 
trying to generally raise 

2482
02:10:25,700 --> 02:10:28,200
awareness. 
And make people understand that 

2483
02:10:28,700 --> 02:10:31,700
there are options out there when
you're trying to figure out how 

2484
02:10:31,700 --> 02:10:35,800
to think about Behavior. 
There's more than one way to 

2485
02:10:35,800 --> 02:10:38,200
think about it and the 
ecological approach is a is a 

2486
02:10:38,200 --> 02:10:40,500
substantive player on that 
field, right? 

2487
02:10:40,500 --> 02:10:43,100
When other friends little group 
were never friends, we've been 

2488
02:10:43,100 --> 02:10:46,200
out an atom and going for a long
time and we have a lot of 

2489
02:10:46,200 --> 02:10:48,900
reasons to think that the things
that were saying in the things 

2490
02:10:48,900 --> 02:10:52,000
that were advocating for our MD,
how these systems, these 

2491
02:10:52,000 --> 02:10:54,800
Behavioral Systems work. 
So I think we, I think we have a

2492
02:10:54,800 --> 02:10:57,800
lot to offer and it's I've seen 
that a lot lately where people 

2493
02:10:57,800 --> 02:10:59,400
are wandering around. 
They've got really good 

2494
02:10:59,400 --> 02:11:01,800
questions, but just don't know 
how to go about asking. 

2495
02:11:05,400 --> 02:11:10,000
In terms of resources frankly if
you're if you're if you're in 

2496
02:11:10,000 --> 02:11:12,500
the sporting world and you're 
interested in finding out 

2497
02:11:12,500 --> 02:11:14,900
anything about the ecological 
approach I can only recommend 

2498
02:11:14,900 --> 02:11:16,500
Rob Graves podcast and book, 
right? 

2499
02:11:16,500 --> 02:11:20,300
His podcast is a remarkable 
resource that he's been 

2500
02:11:20,300 --> 02:11:22,000
producing over the last five or 
six years. 

2501
02:11:22,000 --> 02:11:25,100
And it's it's an incredible 
contribution to the field. 

2502
02:11:25,500 --> 02:11:27,800
And it's accessible, right? 
It's really accessible. 

2503
02:11:27,800 --> 02:11:29,900
He robbed spends. 
A lot of his time and there's 

2504
02:11:29,900 --> 02:11:31,000
lots of different ways of going 
in. 

2505
02:11:31,000 --> 02:11:33,100
And so he goes in the interview 
and he talks to people 

2506
02:11:33,100 --> 02:11:35,000
scientists petitioners Like 
that. 

2507
02:11:35,300 --> 02:11:38,400
So you can go and listen to 
people who are trying to make 

2508
02:11:38,400 --> 02:11:41,700
this stuff work and listen to 
how they talk about and what 

2509
02:11:41,700 --> 02:11:43,500
they're trying to do and how 
they approach of them. 

2510
02:11:44,500 --> 02:11:48,400
But he also spends time working 
his way through kind of 

2511
02:11:48,400 --> 02:11:51,800
theoretical issues. 
In theoretical topics particular

2512
02:11:51,800 --> 02:11:54,600
questions what is calibration 
and what is direct perception? 

2513
02:11:54,600 --> 02:11:59,600
What is direct learning Etc, 
where he's he's trying to walk 

2514
02:11:59,800 --> 02:12:03,100
people through the basics of 
that and again like you're going

2515
02:12:03,100 --> 02:12:06,400
to have to do some work. 
If you're interested in this and

2516
02:12:06,400 --> 02:12:08,600
you think it might be have, 
you're going to have to give it 

2517
02:12:08,600 --> 02:12:11,600
some time and you're going to 
have to come to it, prepared to 

2518
02:12:11,600 --> 02:12:15,000
put a bit of effort in because 
there's no other way to go about

2519
02:12:15,000 --> 02:12:20,300
doing that. 
But if you're if you are then we

2520
02:12:20,300 --> 02:12:22,400
can try and you know they would 
that conversation can be 

2521
02:12:22,400 --> 02:12:25,100
productive with and so like in 
terms of resources in terms of 

2522
02:12:25,100 --> 02:12:28,700
first steps, I always recommend 
rods podcast is just a really 

2523
02:12:28,700 --> 02:12:32,400
good resource. 
I mean yeah, I think those are 

2524
02:12:32,400 --> 02:12:35,000
the best things really to 
recommend right now and then 

2525
02:12:35,000 --> 02:12:36,800
once you've got that foot in the
door, come talk to me and I'll 

2526
02:12:36,800 --> 02:12:39,400
tell you the next. 
Well, I mean, I think that's 

2527
02:12:39,400 --> 02:12:43,500
that that actually right there. 
That last piece is the is the 

2528
02:12:43,500 --> 02:12:46,500
thing that I've learned, and I 
think maybe you can speak to 

2529
02:12:46,500 --> 02:12:49,900
this. 
I have this fear of You know, 

2530
02:12:50,000 --> 02:12:53,200
talking to people reaching out 
because like from I'm only where

2531
02:12:53,200 --> 02:12:56,900
I'm at today because of the fact
that I've had such close 

2532
02:12:56,900 --> 02:13:01,300
interactions with with Sean and 
Tyler like it like I wouldn't 

2533
02:13:01,300 --> 02:13:05,700
because if I were just reading 
the literature by myself I guess

2534
02:13:05,700 --> 02:13:08,200
they help me attuned to what's 
more specifying. 

2535
02:13:08,600 --> 02:13:11,200
Yeah. 
And like otherwise like because 

2536
02:13:11,200 --> 02:13:15,000
I look at for example Sean where
he's at right now then when you 

2537
02:13:15,000 --> 02:13:19,400
do it on your own like it takes 
X number of years of like Acting

2538
02:13:19,400 --> 02:13:21,400
with the information, not that 
Sean hasn't been talking to 

2539
02:13:21,407 --> 02:13:26,000
people and whatever, but like he
has done a lot of it on his own 

2540
02:13:26,000 --> 02:13:31,500
trial and error and like we get 
the benefit of his in some ways.

2541
02:13:31,500 --> 02:13:34,600
Like, for me personally, I get 
the benefit of his mistakes. 

2542
02:13:34,800 --> 02:13:36,800
Yeah. 
And like, I'm able to shortcut, 

2543
02:13:36,800 --> 02:13:38,900
like, for me, I got to where I'm
at. 

2544
02:13:39,100 --> 02:13:42,100
That's I'm not saying I'm aware 
of Sean's at, but I'm a lot 

2545
02:13:42,100 --> 02:13:46,600
closer to where Sean like I much
further on that path than like, 

2546
02:13:46,600 --> 02:13:50,900
where Sean was potentially is 
you know, And because it because

2547
02:13:50,900 --> 02:13:53,700
of the fact of the interaction 
that I've gotten a shortcut, 

2548
02:13:53,700 --> 02:13:57,400
these things and that I think is
like you don't make the mistake 

2549
02:13:57,400 --> 02:14:02,400
that that one organization did 
of butchering, the constraint. 

2550
02:14:02,400 --> 02:14:04,700
Let approach if you actually 
talk to people. 

2551
02:14:05,000 --> 02:14:06,800
Yeah. 
Who are in the industry, like 

2552
02:14:06,800 --> 02:14:09,700
who have developed these ideas 
and Concepts that gets 

2553
02:14:09,700 --> 02:14:11,100
corrected. 
Sorry. 

2554
02:14:11,100 --> 02:14:14,900
You're going to say, well, I'm 
just, I'm just and as an 

2555
02:14:14,900 --> 02:14:17,800
educator right out of my jobs, 
being a scientist, but part of 

2556
02:14:17,800 --> 02:14:22,300
my job is being an educator. 
And as an educator, you're 

2557
02:14:22,300 --> 02:14:24,200
exactly right. 
Like, I've benefited from that 

2558
02:14:24,200 --> 02:14:26,900
as well, you know, so, my PhD 
supervisor supervisor, Jeff 

2559
02:14:26,900 --> 02:14:29,400
Bingham student of turvey, right
site. 

2560
02:14:29,500 --> 02:14:32,300
So, terribly worked with Gibson 
and learned and figured out a 

2561
02:14:32,300 --> 02:14:34,100
whole bunch of stuff, and then 
he told it to Jeff. 

2562
02:14:34,100 --> 02:14:36,400
And there was, there was indeed 
that shortcutting, and that's 

2563
02:14:36,400 --> 02:14:38,900
the whole point, right? 
And then, I got to say, I got to

2564
02:14:38,907 --> 02:14:41,000
learn from Jeff and then, I've 
learned over the years of 

2565
02:14:41,000 --> 02:14:43,200
talking and interacting and 
working with people, as well. 

2566
02:14:43,400 --> 02:14:47,200
That's the whole point, right? 
So in terms of reaching out, 

2567
02:14:47,200 --> 02:14:50,500
right, reach out to us because 
You know, I'll just sit here and

2568
02:14:50,500 --> 02:14:51,700
chat with you guys for a couple 
of hours. 

2569
02:14:51,700 --> 02:14:53,300
It was fun. 
And I've learned, I've told, you

2570
02:14:53,300 --> 02:14:55,000
know, I've learned a bunch of 
things myself, right? 

2571
02:14:55,000 --> 02:14:57,800
I get it, you know, I'm trying 
to get better at articulating. 

2572
02:14:57,800 --> 02:15:00,200
These things, you guys have 
said, some stuff that's made me 

2573
02:15:00,200 --> 02:15:01,200
stop and go. 
Oh, that's interesting. 

2574
02:15:01,200 --> 02:15:03,400
I can put that up with that, 
right? 

2575
02:15:03,400 --> 02:15:06,300
This is, this is, this is part 
of the job. 

2576
02:15:06,300 --> 02:15:10,000
This is part of trying to figure
out how to get this to work, is 

2577
02:15:10,000 --> 02:15:11,900
in this communication. 
And yeah, it, like the whole 

2578
02:15:11,900 --> 02:15:14,400
point is that it's not up to you
to reinvent ecological 

2579
02:15:14,400 --> 02:15:15,900
psychology every single time, 
right? 

2580
02:15:15,900 --> 02:15:18,700
You get to, you get to stand on 
the shoulders of those. 

2581
02:15:19,200 --> 02:15:22,600
That's the whole point of having
that existing literature but 

2582
02:15:23,000 --> 02:15:24,200
it's an existing literature, 
right? 

2583
02:15:24,200 --> 02:15:25,900
It's a bunch of papers. 
It's a bunch of books. 

2584
02:15:27,000 --> 02:15:30,100
It's got to be brought to life 
somehow, right? 

2585
02:15:30,100 --> 02:15:32,700
And so one way to bring it, you 
know, I try to bring it to life 

2586
02:15:32,700 --> 02:15:35,500
in classes and Rob tries to 
bring it to life and his 

2587
02:15:35,500 --> 02:15:39,100
classes, but also through his 
podcast and other people. 

2588
02:15:39,100 --> 02:15:41,000
Other coaches are trying to 
bring it to life through the 

2589
02:15:41,000 --> 02:15:43,600
papers that they publish, but 
also through their practice and 

2590
02:15:43,600 --> 02:15:45,900
their activity at their, their 
clubs, right? 

2591
02:15:46,000 --> 02:15:47,900
So there's lots of different 
people trying to bring this 

2592
02:15:47,900 --> 02:15:51,500
stuff to life and lots of Wax 
and different people responding 

2593
02:15:51,500 --> 02:15:54,200
resonate and they're interested 
and engaged with different ways 

2594
02:15:54,200 --> 02:15:58,100
of bringing those things life. 
So and we're all we all kind of 

2595
02:15:58,108 --> 02:16:00,100
give a damn. 
We all think this is a good idea

2596
02:16:00,100 --> 02:16:02,700
and it's not just that it's a 
good idea but it's an idea that 

2597
02:16:02,700 --> 02:16:06,000
has value. 
We think this is a we think this

2598
02:16:06,000 --> 02:16:09,000
is a really good way of going 
about doing and it's going to 

2599
02:16:09,900 --> 02:16:12,200
for me as a scientist. 
It's going to teach me things 

2600
02:16:12,200 --> 02:16:15,300
about actual mechanisms of 
perception action systems and 

2601
02:16:15,300 --> 02:16:17,900
for a coach, you know, people 
get into it because they think 

2602
02:16:18,100 --> 02:16:20,000
it's actually going to win. 
Able them to do what they 

2603
02:16:20,000 --> 02:16:21,700
actually want to do. 
Just to help support their 

2604
02:16:21,700 --> 02:16:24,700
athletes, become the best, they 
can possibly be and so on and so

2605
02:16:24,700 --> 02:16:27,100
forth. 
So yeah, we're all in it and we 

2606
02:16:27,100 --> 02:16:29,900
all want to be talking about it 
and we all want to be engaged. 

2607
02:16:29,900 --> 02:16:31,700
So, you know, that's the other 
thing just reach out. 

2608
02:16:31,700 --> 02:16:35,900
And, you know, I'm on Twitter 
and you can drop me an e-mail. 

2609
02:16:35,900 --> 02:16:39,000
I'm always happy to have this 
chance, because it's fun. 

2610
02:16:39,000 --> 02:16:43,100
It's part of moving this forward
and keeping it alive. 

2611
02:16:43,100 --> 02:16:47,900
That's the other thing, right? 
Is that, it's, it's important 

2612
02:16:47,900 --> 02:16:52,200
that people can Like yourselves,
keep coming in and keep coming 

2613
02:16:52,200 --> 02:16:55,000
in with, with fresh ideas and 
fresh understandings, and fresh 

2614
02:16:55,000 --> 02:16:57,400
questions, and problems that 
we're trying to address so that 

2615
02:16:57,400 --> 02:17:01,000
we're spreading out and trying 
to tackle more more, and more 

2616
02:17:01,100 --> 02:17:04,200
complicated and different things
so that we're actually building 

2617
02:17:04,200 --> 02:17:06,600
some, right? 
I think that's really important 

2618
02:17:06,600 --> 02:17:10,400
and we're all world came to make
sure that happens. 

2619
02:17:12,400 --> 02:17:18,100
So to kind of land a plane where
can people find you reach out? 

2620
02:17:18,100 --> 02:17:21,299
Like, what's your Twitter handle
potentially email. 

2621
02:17:21,299 --> 02:17:24,900
Like, where's the easiest way 
for people to kind of reach out 

2622
02:17:24,900 --> 02:17:27,100
to you? 
What is a pretty reliable place 

2623
02:17:27,100 --> 02:17:33,500
to find me these dice on acts 
like scientists on Twitter and I

2624
02:17:33,508 --> 02:17:36,400
have a Blog. 
It's called notes from to 

2625
02:17:36,400 --> 02:17:39,000
Scientific and psychologists 
which has a long history for 

2626
02:17:39,000 --> 02:17:40,500
various reasons, but that's what
it's called. 

2627
02:17:41,200 --> 02:17:43,700
There's a boatload of stuff that
I've been developing are over 

2628
02:17:43,700 --> 02:17:48,500
the years and writing and yeah. 
So I'm a reader in Psychology at

2629
02:17:48,500 --> 02:17:50,600
Leeds, Beckett. 
University and Leeds United 

2630
02:17:50,600 --> 02:17:53,700
Kingdom. 
And so, my email here is a DOT 

2631
02:17:53,700 --> 02:17:58,000
Wilson at Leeds, Beckett, but 
ac.uk and I have a lot of 

2632
02:17:58,000 --> 02:18:01,000
conversations and with people 
and I'm always kind of happy to 

2633
02:18:01,000 --> 02:18:03,799
try and find some time. 
You know, he's a busy teaching 

2634
02:18:03,799 --> 02:18:06,100
of started above things going on
as well, but I'm usually happy 

2635
02:18:06,100 --> 02:18:09,700
to try and find time to talk. 
It's part of my job. 

2636
02:18:09,799 --> 02:18:12,299
I consider it to be part of my 
job but also it's fun and it's 

2637
02:18:12,299 --> 02:18:18,600
exciting and Well, thank you so 
much for coming on and talking 

2638
02:18:18,600 --> 02:18:20,700
with us for for a good length of
time. 

2639
02:18:22,799 --> 02:18:25,100
Thank you so much. 
Andrew filament meant a lot. 

2640
02:18:25,100 --> 02:18:26,799
Learned a lot here in this 
conversation. 

2641
02:18:27,700 --> 02:18:29,200
Yeah, appreciate it. 
No, this is good. 

2642
02:18:29,200 --> 02:18:31,000
This is a really fun fun 
chatting part of