Welcome back to finding the edge podcast.
I'm Garrett poem joined with Robert Fry and Garrett Baker.
Neither of us. Who's out?
Who's helping? Who wants?
What with, with, with our Frozen degrees of freedom, between me
and Robert Barron? Yeah.
I don't know if I use that right, but Yeah.
I know, right? Well, you know, we're playing
around right now. So our agency.
Yeah. We're seeing gauging and some
serious player exploring. The exploring intro in a
different way right now and seeing, if at least anything and
that's exactly the answer, all the stuff that's the intro right
there. So like for this episode, we
riff off of a video by Ray Kelly, where he's doing a an
interview with John for Vicki, and they're talking about why
serious play is transformative. We discuss how this is
applicable to baseball in some ways, we're trying to help
people adjust to this idea of like we can actually play and
work and like get things done and like grow and it's not just
this distraction Yeah, and I think I would challenge anybody
listening to this, to hopefully have a different idea of what
Blake could potentially be verse, like, your typical idea
of play, but this idea which he gets into about serious play,
which again is near near dear to my heart in my, my way of life
and kind of the way I approach coaching but just just to look
at it in a different light, Verso, they're just they're
screwing around so they're they're going and playing verse
like we're still working. In a way, but how we're aiming
to interact with our work, is through serious, play and
through some exploration. And as you'll see in the
episode, this idea of repetition with variation and how that is
actually probably a better version of or definition of
play. So, to me, this is, this is a
concept that can transform one. Your own practice, whatever you
want to engage in to how you going coach.
I think this is this is an extremely extremely powerful
concept. No, I mean, that's that's the
thing is, like this. This intro, even though we're
going to chop it up, is more more would have been looking
for? I thought, you know, like just,
yeah, it's and it seems like, boy.
I'm that you were allowing us to engage in serious play rather
than following a structure for the intro, well, which is what
we've been trying to get to write because this, this is a,
we want something that's more alive.
It's more ecological. And, you know, into like this,
This is what serious play does is it helps it gives life to
things, you know, because it going back to like what we'll
talk a little bit about in the episode when we you'll see the
episode was recorded a long time ago with just me and Baker.
So so we're looking, we're looking at the episode here and
I just noticed that this episode was recorded over a year ago.
So, it's so good. That it was, it took over a year
in the making. Yeah, well into it was initially
recorded as a, as Confessions of a baseball coach episode, but
we're going to bring that. We're going to Port this one
over to finding the edge, which is the layer.
Oh yeah. I mean and we're also like way
different people than we were a year ago.
Yeah, I don't remember who I was a year ago.
It's all right. I think it's good.
That we recorded a little bit of an update.
And then when we're doing the intro recorded, A little extra
with Robert and in that, we had a little clip from inning by
inning where Auggie, Greedo talks about how like, they don't
say, work baseball. They they talk about, let's play
ball. And so to me, that's that's that
whole the essence of what Auggie is talking about.
There is about imbuing this thing with actual life, like
making it a lot and this this too is, you know, me.
It plays off this. Another video that I love by
Bruce Lee when he's working with the student or whatever and I
want to pull it up but you know this is an intro so I don't want
to get too long-winded on it but anyways, so the video, the video
is him working with the student and in it is like, kick me and
it throws the student, throws a kick.
He was like, what was that? We need emotional content.
And so like that's that's kind of like to me.
Emotional content is imbuing the thing with life.
So you know, hopefully this this episode is life giving to you.
I just, you know, you know, like I don't, this is where like,
what's hard about this, right? Well, I mean, but here's the
thing, right? Here's what's hard about this
stuff, right? And did you even going back to
the video, right? He talks about like Rafe is
touching on something deep. This is why this episode was
initially recorded as part of Confessions of a baseball coach
because you can go so deep here and I think that's the thing.
That's that's hard for a lot of people in just our culture is
like that's so cliche. You know.
I hope this podcast like you know but I mean that's really
what it boils down to. I mean you know like we can we
can talk about passion or whatever it is you know like we
have to put it in different terms but like that's the thing
of like people. It's more engaging, you know,
than just the Hey, let's talk about this in a factual way
Bueller, Bueller, Bueller type of deal.
Like so anyways, I hope you enjoyed today's podcast with
Garrett Baker, Robert Fry, Garrett point, you wanna do you
want to shout out emergence? Also, if you enjoy our content
and would like to learn more about ecological Dynamics, one
of our favorite topics here on finding the edge, we encourage
you to check out the work by emergence.
We got a great deal going on with him right now to get seven
percent off. If you use the code edge 7, they
got a wide range of courses, ranging from an extensive
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unfortunately, the code doesn't work for that, but if you're
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movement Academy. Intro, the movement Academy
intro, is a college style course, facilitated by the team
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If you want something that as that gives you an overview but
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is abbreviated M VM t T that all be there handle for all their
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urgent. Movement.com, you can find all
their links, do their social media, and their website, and
the description below. So, yeah, I mean what, what's up
cuz you guys pick up again rolling Baker and then Robert, I
guess Robert we should start with Robert because I mean
that's the first I wonder is that like your first time you've
ever seen this video? It is the first time I've.
All right, so what what was your impression?
What stood out to you? I guess the the first impression
that stood out to me was like, you know, the idea of repetition
with variation and that's that's the biggest thing that stood out
to me because, you know, in a training environment or like, if
I'm doing something where, you know, I'm super hyper, focus on
a certain task, like I feel like There's there's less of growth
if I'm hyper focused on the past rather than allowing myself to
play around and so like it reminded me of oddly enough me
playing a particular video game called Bioshock and big fan of
that game but like the advantage with that was the reason why I
like it so much. Is it duck that game was like
amongst the first to allow you to have a deep sense of
exploration like you Don't have to be like, oh, you have to do
this past this path, this path. Like you can explore the world
and, you know, allow yourself to solve that problem in the way
you see in different variations. So as you can perceive multiple
affordances or different affordances, yeah, and within
the landscape or absolutely. So it's like, you know, it
allows you to kind of see a bigger picture is the way.
A, I'm kind of perceiving it. Is it allows you to see that
like there's not just one way to do it.
There's more than one way and you know, for one person that
might be one thing for another person, might be another, oh,
you know, just being allow yourself to create that
reputation with variation. So that's kind of the big thing
I got out of that. Dile of a lot of that.
Like, what you picked up? I mean, because this is, this is
some of the, like, even even with what you were saying of how
when you are, given the freedom to explore.
And to me, I was thinking about like, you may perceive
affordances within the game that the designer didn't even think
of when you're allowed the freedom to explore and and being
more of a what I would like to call when you were talking about
video game design, more of a sandbox.
It's right where you have more freedom to kind of do what you
want or interact with it. Rather in the way that that is
more along your style or you know, that that aligns with or
who you are, and how you want to interact and how you with with
the game and you get to begin, like to you're saying like you
get to then try different things too.
And the other element that I took out of that was you also
begin to understand or appreciate more of the game Brew
through that exploration. When you find little, you make
little discoveries about the game.
You begin to appreciate the game even more.
And through that you you get it, you come to a deeper
understanding of how the game or of the game rather and how the
game works and have a greater and deeper appreciation for for
the thing that you're doing. I mean spot on because it's it's
the same concept of like how a deep sense of passion that's
created when problem solved. So like specific examples like
my experiences with coding like hmm I didn't follow like a
structured path. I didn't go, you know, in
classes at school. I didn't go.
Hey, you know, I'm going to do this.
This is this is I just allowed myself to explore and like
creative different things and I'm like, yeah, this is, this is
awesome because, you know, I allowed Myself, at exploration
allowed myself to solve those problems.
So you so basically like you have a sense of ownership to of
like the stuff of what you did and what not.
So I think because I think that's the other part of it too
of when I look at an ecological approach that we give players
more ownership or we. It creates a environment to
allow that facilitates for ownership or for the player to
have ownership over their development.
And so that's that to me is what it sounds like you're talking
about. There's like, you had ownership
over your learning, instead of it was something that was just
given to you by somebody else. Yeah, I don't know if I
articulated exactly how I wanted it to, ya know, I think.
But anyways I think I mean, I think you're spot on it because
when you when you approach something with play like you're
going to be able to go and navigate it in a different way
if you then you approach it like I need to do it perfectly or the
maybe guardrails are too tight where there's nowhere to go and
it gets really boring and there's you don't feel like
there's any ownership of that because basically whoever was
telling you the task or gave you a task basically guide.
You directly to the answer. And I like how you're supposed
have ownership of that. You can't 12 to jump in real
quick. It may not fit your personality
or who you are. That makes sense, right?
Like you know, like that's somebody else is, you know, like
way of looking at it and like it, maybe their intention but
that's not your intention. Or that's not like what you
value, you know, how you want to use it and interact with it,
sorry to cut you off. Nothing your thought on it.
I think like the video game ideas like perfect is why do why
do people like video games so much?
Like why? I think there's more reasons
than just this but like you look at like a game like Fortnight
like I think took off and every single round is different.
There's there's repetition with variation.
You can play a bunch of different game bunch of games
over and over and over. You had a bunch of repetitions
but every game because it's so Dynamic since there's 100
players or however many players are in it.
It's, it's going. To be different every single
time and how you aim to interact like you you go this place this
time then you go to this place this time.
There's you make different gun even if you go to the same spot,
this me a different gun there for you, as you need different,
different opportunities to explore the world in a different
way. And that's where you kind of
play around in different Realms and it'd be different if the
game told you, you had to go here, then you had to go here
and it gives you parameters but even the Zone moves and changes
where it's going to end. So you're exploring different
ways. And I think that, Is what keeps
it so engaging and wanting people to go back and like,
people are willing to invest so much time in it and play, and
play, and play, and get reps, and Reps, and rep, because of
that, because of this repetition, with variations, I
think, actually, I say, I think I know, because I've done it,
I've done it with other people, but if you approach your own
development in this way, where you have repetition with
variation versus trying to get the perfect rep over and over
and over. You're going to be more engaged.
So learning is going to be higher until you're going to
enjoy it more, like you're going to, you're going to want to go
back and do more. And like, I think people have
just, in my opinion, like he talks about, like, everything
sits just Leisure and fun, there is there's crappy play, if that
makes sense. Like, you can just screw around
and you can engage in this idea of crappy play where you don't
pick anything up and you're just yours aiming to have a good
time, have fun Leisure, and what the mind go and not, not really
worried about anything, but then there's this Display where
you're fully engaged. You're trying to pick something
up and that's where this repetition with variation comes
in. And we're learning actually
happens and you can probably pick something up.
You never would have before if you did engage with serious play
and it's, I'll stop with this. But there's a Neato saying he
says, never leave the playground.
And that's something I try to take to everything in my life
because if I approach everything like a playground, like I'm just
an Explorer in any way. I see fit in the moment and Find
new ways to interact with that playground and all enjoy it.
And it'll be more fun verse. Like I have to do it this exact
way and this exact time, or whatever it may be and these
exact guidelines because then your creativity stifled which
again think about the benefits of being creative thinking about
the benefits of having ownership and had the benefits of just
like literally just wanting to go do it because that is just
one. You're going to get more reps
but to you're going to get more reps in a bunch.
Different ways which think about when the transfer the context
context is always changing within games where everything is
a dynamical system. So the value of that is so high,
I have I have something that's going to take me a second to
pull it up and looking for it was like Baker.
Keep talking, keep talking. Well I'm Sorry Miss we go here
we go. All I have to do is play the
first the very first part and you'll know exactly why I Why
did this? I'm not going to create a work
environment. This is you don't you don't hear
the Empire, you know, and I know there's an old cliche but when
you start the game he doesn't say.
Okay. Let's work baseball is let's
play ball. you know, like yeah, that's exactly what you're
talking about, you know, I keep it like, This is the game is
when we play baseball, we're playing a game.
I know guys are getting paid. Lots of money at the
professional level and all that sort of stuff, but at the end of
the day you get paid to play a game.
And so, so guys don't get burned out and so they play their best
baseball. You have to, you have to keep it
fun. You have to keep it in again.
I mean because you look at their our Esports right?
Going back to video games. Esports is now a thing and
there's lots of money in it and there are people who Are doing
it professionally. Like it just we are, we are in
an entertainment industry, like just plain and simple.
That's what, that's what it is that we are doing.
Especially, when you're talking about pro professional, baseball
you are, you are in, you are in the entertainment business.
It's not any different than a video game in some ways, but it
is different because I also, I find, I get frustrated when some
coaches over Coach players and basically coach them as if they
were playing a video game. Yeah, that's that.
That's the first. That's not my brother.
Yeah, it's not. The players playing the video
games, the coach by the vegan? That's the issue.
Yeah. With the players, right?
Yeah. With real-life players.
Yes. Like but no, I think I think we
have to remember that and that that helps us Get the most out
of her players like he's going back to to the Ray Kelly video
in him talking about at the beginning like what makes a good
coach the first the first thing I think is the most important
thing have a deep care for the person's like right in front of
you, right? And so I think that's where
everything else flows from there, right?
If you have a deep care for the person in front of you and you
want to see the best for them. Part of your knowledge because
he had that like the tackle the Tactical knowledge or the
Strategic knowledge or the content specific knowledge that
you need to be able to help out that player becomes comes
important. You know, after that first
premise. And so, you know, that's where I
see an ecological approach fitting.
Very well with that because you still what the biggest struggle
of when you have a deep care for the person in front of you is,
how are you going to care for them?
I think that's like we don't, we don't ask that question.
We don't think about that too much because sometimes how we
care for them is like we try to make sure That they eat their
vegetables. Type of a thing, you know like
force them to have what's best for them. instead of Carrying
instead of respecting their freedom.
I think it's different sometimes like because we Baker you know
you you're working through this right now and I'm working
through this as parents right there.
Are some times where it's like no you you are doing this thing,
right? Like you are you don't you have
you as a little three-year-old, two-year-old of zero concept 80
and I understand you want to just play and play and play but
you got to eat your vegetables. You got to eat food.
No, you can't touch that. No, you can't do that right now.
I have to teach you, you know, like it.
So I do have to, like, your freedom isn't isn't unlimited,
you know? But at times I need to respect
his freedom. You know what I mean?
So there's this, this balancing act that we as coaches, when we
care for our players, I understand both sides of it of
like, well, they don't know and we have to we have to and then
but I think as players get older we have to respect their freedom
or and so that's that's one of the things I think when we're
talking about having a deep care for the person in front of you
is respecting their freedom and building their freedom to like
because they're like with the child.
Some of the things have like me disciplining, my son is so that
he can have freedom. Because if I let him Chase every
women, desire that he has, he won't have freedom.
You will be a slave to every whim.
Every little flashy thing that lies in front of him.
He won't have any self discipline to resist those
things and so like, but it, still comes back to that that
element of like, understanding that how this all Feeds back
into freedom but you have to you know you know as a parent right?
Like kids you're going to turn 18 or whatever and leave the
house like we have to let them go.
Like that's that's that's I think the other element of it.
Yeah I would agree time navigating that as we speak and
learning up but I think that's constraints on behaviors right
manipulating constraints. And I think it goes into a
little bit of guided exploration to which goes right into this
idea of play like you're not necessarily telling me exactly
what to do but maybe nudging him in a certain direction, to go
explore or interact with an environment in a certain
direction. Based on the constraints, we
place on your child or your player in front of you.
And I think that's again, that's where the ecological approach
is, is so powerful because you're considering the person in
front of you. But you're also not directly
telling because you think, you know exactly what this person
needs to go, do your place, skillfully place, constraints
within the environment to direct Behavior or allow them to just
go explore and or interact with an environment and potentially
different way to go discover something and engage in some
serious, play over here and see what they figure out because
then they become their own unique authentic version of
themselves. Which I think is what we need to
get to at the The end of the day, not great these robots but
their own unique authentic. Way of interacting with the
world which I think is not talked about enough but
extremely important, I think it ties right back in this.
If you engage in serious play, you're probably going to go find
that. Absolutely and it reminds me of
and I know boy, I'm just gonna love this thing, but Ryan's, we
have my Community College Mantra, a tank, shout-out start
here, finish anyway. And so that really goes in the
concept of you know got an exploration it's like hey here's
your starting point but we're going to allow you to go
wherever you wherever you want to take the path and allows you
to you know, go from you know. Again, it goes to like one
person could be going from point A to point B.
Another particular going from point A to point x for all we
know, it's just whatever that that path creates for them and
allows exploration. Again, it leads into allowing
that person, one that creativity but to like, they'll be more
engaged in the long run because they figure it out for
themselves rather than oh hey you have to do a b c then D then
e the F and that's like at what point do they Get into the idea
or concept of like, burnout we're gonna do this, we're gonna
do this, you know, and then have that mindset of rather than I
have to do this. It's I get it.
Yeah, it's not just forcing a mindset, it's actually allow
them to engage in a way where they actually get to instead of
like, just write it on your mirror.
I get to do, I do this and then cram it down their throat which
is kind of what we're top as my background in sports psychology.
It's kind of like a just like, no, you have to switch them out.
You guys? Put your mindset?
That's all I got to do. So what's your mindset instead
of have to get to? Well, if we change, how they
interact with the environment, they may actually say like, hey
I get to do this verse just like Having the force them to switch
the mindset, which maybe there's times that it's needed in some
directions. But I think an actual engaging
environment where you can engage in some serious play.
You're actually going to like I actually get to do this.
I don't have to go to the site, it's not work, it's play, it's a
little serious play. and I think to going back to the Utilizing
constraints to help people find exploration, sometimes to going
back to a little bit of the parenting stuff.
It's not just manipulating constraints but I find like
oftentimes what I'm doing with my son is I'm educating his
attention or I'm educating his attention or intention, sorry
educating his intention. And I think that's actually a
lot of times of like, hey, here's a constraint, like right
now, you can't Screaming or running around.
So I have to re-educate his intention and try to take, you
know, give him something else to do else, something else to focus
on. And I think that's, that's a lot
of times to of like, I will oftentimes to say, to say to
him, like not right now. I'm not telling you not forever
and there might be a certain situation which you can do this
thing. But that thing is not right now,
you know, and so like and is trying to figure out how to help
him a tune to what is the specifying information in the
environment. Ain't that he can regulate his
behavior on that, he can find a good fit, you know.
And I think that this is where like to me, like, I'm having fun
parenting, because like ecological Dynamics is just,
it's omnipresent, you could say, like, it works in all situations
and so, like same thing with, with our players of like
sometimes it's it is, we are trying to help them.
Like you're saying like, Okay how we adopt more of a get to
mindset. And so how do we facilitate
that? Or Like once when somebody is
like, you know, interacting with the environment, we don't see
that behavior or whatever. Like how do we how do we help
them by educating potentially their attention towards?
Like some sort of information that will help them educate.
Their intention more towards. I get to vs.
I have to You know, for sure. And we probably should be
careful not rerecord the episode here.
Anyways, I hope you enjoyed today's podcast since one of the
topics that we like to explore a lot when it comes to coaching.
And in some of our conversations, Garrett, we've
talked about play and exploration.
And I came across this video the other day.
I figured it might be something good to talk about, and how we
can incorporate play into our own practice.
Yeah, what makes a good coach, right?
That's you. Yeah, at the heart of what I'm
interested in when I thought about this years ago on well,
the first thing that makes a great coach.
So I think actually that's that's the better topic.
What? Makes a great coach.
It's been a minute since I listened to this but I wonder I
wonder maybe we should start there with. that question for
you, what makes a good coach If I were to say it's been an
evolving evolving topic a lot and I think he'll get into it a
little bit. Do I know we both have watch
this video but originally is very much, the guy with the best
information. I think I've at least that was
my vision and that's what I chased.
I chased like he's the best information and all these
different theories and all these different ways to maybe apply
these theories. And how can I make my players?
The absolute best physically. And then I won't even say just
That's a mentally, too. I mean, obviously, I don't mean
the sport psychology, got the master's degree and as I got me
of my players, the best information, but at the end of
the day, what I noticed is I made the best information.
But if guys aren't willing to listen or have a desire to truly
be a speak poached by me and I know that's a big key to portal
topic. It's like when you find a good
coach, you don't care what he's teaching you.
You just don't learn whatever you wants to teach you.
You're going to you're going to pick it up and what makes that
so appealing, why do you care? Even if it's not information you
wanted us to learn. If you find that good coach,
you're going to want to learn from them.
And I think it one has to do with a relationship.
I think it's the ability to connect deeply and then to speak
in a way of connecting, not just to, I guess, the surface level,
but more deeply and terms of like, I know we can get into
like a deep diving like narrative and all that by
speaking with into their life, the no manner of story and
connecting to their their lives in certain ways that is Beyond
well, beyond baseball or necessary, the crap.
And I think that's become become overly apparent.
Its comes relationship. And really speaking of that
person's life in a way, that can connect not just on the baseball
side, but in the Life side, those were I've kind of gone
with it as far as what makes good coach. yeah, it for myself
early on it was Similar to you in like information.
But for me it was a coach that got their athletes to perform
and then the information, what was a part of that.
But it was more technique focused.
At least for me, like my mind was focused on my guys are going
to have the best technique. And because we have better
technique, we're going to go out there and we're going to perform
better, but then then the other team.
And so that's kind of the main thing that I was chasing.
More was trying to learn the best techniques out there for
ways of doing things. And now it's it's in some ways
similar. I really liked the quote, the
best leader when his job is done, you know, is a match Eve,
'd:wz people or his or their players will, basically say we
did it ourselves. And so that that is kind of been
the Kind of more how I've thought about it.
Lately is like, how do I get the athlete to have more ownership
to essentially? I'm just their facilitating.
How to, how do I get them to basically, like Discover it for
themselves? And I'm just facilitating, I
think that for me, the hard part about that though is walking
that balance or at least I have this fear.
That by doing so. I will basically not be valuable
or the players won't players or other coaches won't see me as
valuable because if you're doing your job really well, your might
not be noticed. And and then how do you
differentiate not being noticed because you're doing a bad job
versus not being noticed because you're doing a good job.
And so for me that's that's one of the things that I think I'm
struggling to figure out how to How to kind of bridge that and I
do think it's kind of goes along with what you were saying of
really. It's about relationships and
then, if you build a strong relationship with the players
with the athletes, then, you know that in a way, the players
will value you, but I do think like, a good coaches is one that
players look up to that connect. With and, you know, someone that
they actually want to be around. But yeah those are those are
kind of Maya. Initial thoughts.
I also think too. One other small ad before we
continue, the video is a coach. A good coach gets you to think.
And helps you connect things and discover new insights.
So I guess that's what I'll add. As we continue here.
Is actually caring deeply about helping the person in front of
them solve their problems. The second thing that matters
deeply is having the knowledge to help them and the third thing
is having the Charisma that allows you to create the
connection in the can convince and persuade them.
Yep, you Click execute until said present and to be to attend
to the lecture. So I think that's a you got a
good. I'll actually want to back that
up and just do that one more time.
Yeah. Thing that makes a great coaches
actually caring deeply about helping the person in front of
them, solve their problem. The second thing that matters
deeply is having the knowledge to help them and the third thing
is having the Charisma that allows you to create the
connection in the convince and persuade Add them.
Yep. You exclusively execute until
said present and to be to attend to the lecture.
So yeah, very often, the thing, it makes somebody an
extraordinary coach is much less to do with their awareness of
the optimization sets and Reps. Kim has more to do with their
ability to get in deep rapport with this point or the or the
athlete. I think that's all sir.
So, out of out of that, what, what, what things stood out to
you, to start? I mean, the first time I heard
that I was like, I actually did, I literally did what you just
did right there for everybody is literally listen back to it,
being happy. I might have to do it one more
time but yeah. It's literally, it's really that
good. But I think I kind of, I think
it kind of comes back to the the idea of the self-discovery and
guiding and almost like having that Charisma that deep
relationship. And there were four to guide
that person into wanting to discover it bursts just wanting.
And I think I've struggled with this at times where guys just
want to be a lot of times just because of a culture is
nowadays, this want to be fed the answer and they honestly
want to be taught or they don't want to learn per say they just
want the, they want the solution.
They want you to tell you how it's done.
And kind of almost goes back a little bit, we talked to you
about but the like they think they did it themselves, it's
gonna be a stickier to hear scale is going to stick your
whatever, whatever you're trying to teach them and working on
that self-discovery. How do you, how do you work?
And that's the, this is something I've been playing with
a ton and how do you get to that?
Charisma, that wants them to learn and wants them to go and
inspires them? I think it's a good word, we use
a lot obviously, it's because I work Inspiration Academy.
That's one of our big words Nathan, how do we go out and
Spire them, but want and go and discover and try new things and
play around with ideas and then work through this process first,
I just I'm just looking for the answer and a lot of it is very
much a skill on the coach's guide to be able to do that,
have that deep connection you'll learn to do that.
And it's it's not easy and there's a lot of times like they
don't necessarily play or may not want it and that's on.
I've been playing with a lot. Okay.
Well, if the player isn't want it, I now have to Go find a new
route to go have this person want to start their own journey
and on this self-discovery path where they're, they're trying to
learn on their own first, just like a wanted to answer even if
that's all they want. And the pretty adamant about
that and they keep he died. I've had people dig in a little
bit, just like, well, what is it?
What, what am I, what? I do, what I need more.
What do I need to do here? What I need to do there first,
okay? Well, let me start guiding you
and then you start going on this journey.
You play with these ideas. So I mean, I think he raps that.
Up stove. So nicely on what action makes a
good coach but playing with those Concepts, I know, I know
you probably have it, I have I thought about him a lot trying
to like, how do I work this and how do I work this thing with my
own players? How do I get to that level?
But I know your thoughts on that.
So I love how you talked about Discovery.
I think that is the thing of like how do we get them to have
this desire to discover the answer for themselves?
Like this is this whole idea where coaches talk about like we
want players who are passionate. Well we have to facilitate that
I think a lot of Athletes given given kind of like our societal
background through the education system, Etc.
They This Joy of discovering things for yourself.
His skin has in some ways been trained out of are trained to
out of us and And I think that's, that's where we have to
figure out a way to help rekindle that.
I know that for myself in some ways that's when when the system
rewards you for the right answer, you all you do is you
just only want right answers? And then when it when it
punishes you for wrong answers. And so To help guys kind of
discover. The answers.
You have to create a safe to fail environment where they feel
safe to explore to make mistakes.
And then to kind of move on from that, I was trying to look up a
quote from a book that I just recently listened to on
perception and the the note that I had picked up on it, is that
in order for people to actually understand things they have to,
especially if we're talking about skill acquisition Mission.
They actually have to have a role in creating it and so if
you want to have guys, take ownership of their own
development, then you actually have to allow athletes to have a
role in, or rather a say in how they how their their development
plan, or what they do to develop as a player is.
And so I think people sometimes take this one of two ways they
met. Then go completely hands-off and
then players don't feel like they have any sort of structure
or the coach goes to Hands-On in.
There's way too much structure and they don't have any freedom
to have any input or say in terms of creating it themselves.
And so, I the way that I think about it is I need to provide
structure to allow the athlete to begin to explore because if
they have no idea what the concept is in terms of like
trying to discover, how do I go about trying to discover things?
They may be paralyzed. Some guys may totally love it.
I think the best analogy I can think of is one of my buddies
who used to do political campaigns or was worked on a
political campaign, traveled around the country.
He Because he didn't have a lot of money.
He was always eating at Subway and got really sick of eating
Subway and he started saying to the to the Sandwich Artist.
I think that's what Subway called them.
Make me a sandwich, just believe in yourself, make me anything
you want and there would be two types of responses.
People who had completely freeze and just ask them.
Well do you like this or that? And he'd be like just make me.
Whatever you want. And some people do he said would
just absolutely love it. Be like, oh, sweet, all right,
and they just go to town on it. So I think you're going to
you're going to run into a similar thing with with
athletes. Some athletes are going to love
it, they're going to be able to run with it.
Other athletes are going to really freeze and so you're
going to need to give them some sort of structure to be able to
begin to explore. And so that's that's kind of my
thought in terms of trying to Foster this desire for
discovery, And this goes back to what I think Rafe was talking
about at the beginning of building relationships.
I think that's where, where I normally start, I always try to
find out when I, when I first talked to an athlete, I try to
figure out like, what are their main drivers or motivations when
it comes to baseball, like, what are their goals and aspirations?
I think, if you don't even know those basic things, it's really
hard to help an athlete like you because you don't if, or
essentially you're working with the athlete blind as far as
like, what their motivations are.
And so trying to figure out like, what are the main
motivations for why the athlete is playing, I think, really
hampers your ability to connect with that athlete.
So that's normally where I start.
Do you ever feel or have you ever had the experience has just
kind of playing off of that? There's a couple things like
I've kind of circle back to here.
But first one, have you ever had athletes where you almost have
to take them through a self-discovery process of what
their aspirations are? Even like why are they even
playing the first place? So I feel like I've had that
right off the get-go where they don't even know and then I
almost have to guide them through a little journey of like
why are you even playing the game and what are you actually
trying to accomplish? Why are you doing what you're
doing? Why are you going to have?
You had heavy. Had any experiences of that kind
of like having to take them right off the right off the
get-go into that that self-discovery.
I mean I've definitely experienced what you're talking
about and getting kind of some vague answers.
Yeah and even as I was kind of describing this I was thinking
about what kind of other questions could I ask other than
the stand standard like you know, how are you doing today
type of a question, you know, i-i've you that question of You
know like what are your goals you know with baseball you know
what are you what are you hoping to achieve?
I almost think to then to go back to this this idea of play
enchantment asking like what was was one of your favorite moments
playing the game like and and I could be playing the game or
just like what's Tell me, tell me one of your favorite baseball
moments and that could that might not even have to do with
them playing the game themselves.
That could simply be a baseball moment something that they've
seen on another team whether it's professional Little League
Etc. And I think that would give you
better insight into maybe what motivates them.
Yeah, that's really good. Um, not that I was gonna, I was
gonna ask though to, like, how how have you thought about
bridging that that issue when you run into that?
Yeah, a lot of it I think is, I want to make it sound like a
cop-out answer, but conversation, dependent, and
player dependent. And a lot of times, it's more
of, like, I'm trying to facilitate a journey where I'm
like, very carefully on in the moment, like, trying to
intentionally, ask them questions of Really trying to
see and I think one of them is what are some of your favorite
moments. Like, I've definitely gone down
that route like connecting to like the bright spots of
baseball or maybe overcoming failure.
And I've gone down that right that route a little bit.
Something that makes you feel kind of like almost like a hero
archetype in a way like you over overcame something within within
the game and you like you felt you felt this, this a borderline
heroism, where you you were the you were the hero of the game or
like you did something great for your tribe.
Your He so I think I think that becomes a big piece of piece of
essence. That's where I think you start
finding meaning within the game or why you're going about.
Then that's like the question I always had with our larger
pictures last year. American International was like,
first thing I would ask is like, why why do you play the game?
And I tried to do in a group setting up first, and I got all
those vague answers and they're all really weak.
And then we have conversations later on and I was like, none of
that your answer. Do you think your answer would
take? Take you through now.
You're now you're struggling, real bad and and you're
currently on a streak where you're a spiff teen right now.
Like your girlfriend's, not very happy with you guys are
struggling a relationship, you're having trouble back home
and nothing's going, right? Do you think that answer would
keep you in the game and just kind of like, you think you
would keep really pushing hard for the game and all these
circumstances and then you kind of get some at least thinking
sometimes and start working down.
Like, I why am I actually doing all this, like, why am I putting
other things aside to focus? This on this at the time and
then a lot of stuff on cover some sometimes they realize that
they don't love it as much as I think and they're just doing it
because they're doing it other times.
They don't on folds, beautiful picture of why they're actually
doing this and what experiences have led them to this.
And sometimes it's like I'm doing this because I could be
doing this or this or I could be going down this path and this is
taking me away from that path. I've seen it.
So it's been a lot of those a lot of those conversations.
Honestly. If I talk about A rapport and
kind of foster that relationship, like brings you
into a deeper, understanding of them.
And then honestly, I usually get pretty, pretty open during that
conversation as well, but those honestly are some of my favorite
conversation. That was athletes.
Just like, why are you playing this game?
What's the meaning to you? Like, why why did you go through
all the crap? You go through the training and
the weight room on the feel all this extra time?
Like a borderline of job for you.
Right now, you could be making money like, why, why did this?
So I think that's really fun. Honestly, that's one of the fun
parts of coaching my opinion. No absolutely.
And it just reminds me of Simon cynics or Simon sinek.
I don't remember how you pronounce his last name
correctly, but his whole book. Start with why.
Yes. And when you have a strong, why
you're able to endure a lot of adversity and I think, you know
what, one thing that is they don't like about the game.
Is that? It it gets us to face adversity
in a non oftentimes Nan. I want to say life-threatening
but like a nun you know, like extremely like dangerous type of
situation and and that's that's where I think the value of our
sport is because there's so much failure because it is so
difficult and I, you know, I saw that a lot not a lot but I saw
that a little bit in when I play it like we had a very talented
Underclassmen come in and he was always really good in high
school and he just ran into a little bit of struggle and it
was just hard for him because he was such a really good athlete.
And so he ended up quitting and just running track because you
super fast and I think that's, that's where the game is, is
humbling in the sense that I mean they've been seeing that
plenty of times to wear a player's, just really high in
themselves and then, Whether it's the next half of the Season
or the next season, then they get really humbled.
And there's, there's a level of having some respect for the game
in the and in, in a way, doing the things the right way, but I
was going to go. So the looping back to starting
with y and for me, Why. It's It's so useful to ask that
question to find out what really drives a player is, because then
I can better help them like I Now, understand or can think of
ways that I can actually connect with them to actually help them.
So, for example, I've been asking our players just getting
to know them, you know what their aspirations are and into,
I even ask like, post baseball, what are you, what are your
aspirations, you know, at one Spaceballs over and then
especially for the ones that are looking to be coaches?
Whether that is a Baseball, coach or a strength coach like,
hey, I have all these resources, you know, if you, you know,
these are things that I can. Then start having more
conversations with them. Maybe about more of the pedal.
The theory was going to try to go for the word headed.
Headed gut, pedagogy headache, a logical.
But anyways, you know, we can start talking pedagogy and, and
theories and all this sort of stuff such like, you know, e
Cody. Because in some ways I I look at
the next generation of coaches that are coming up.
If you can give them, they're the ones that are going to
actually be able to change more so than the older ones on a
large scale. And so, I kind of look at them
as being like, Oh hey, we can, I can actually, maybe get you to
look into e. Cody, get you started early
because I mean again, I think we might have met talked about this
before. A lot of coaches coach based
upon how they were coached in what they learned to as players.
And so trying to expand their to give to set them up because I
think one of the other things that I really struggled with.
Especially starting out, and why I went the strength and
conditioning route was. I didn't see any good baseball
mentors for me. It doesn't mean that there
aren't good baseball coaches. I just didn't know of outside of
like the coaches that I worked with in college.
I didn't know of a whole lot of other really good, baseball,
coaches, local ones that I could go kind of Be mentored by.
I did end up finding, you know, where I ended up?
Coaching High School like it was a good, baseball mind and all
that sort of stuff. But, you know, it was, it was
really hard. And so that's part of the reason
why I went the strength and conditioning route was, there
was just way more people out there.
There's it felt like it was much easier to have conversations and
like just reach out to people. There are a lot more clinics all
that sort of stuff. So I just felt like, for me,
that, that area was a lot more Progressive.
I think that was the main thing to was that it was a lot more
Progressive. That there weren't a ton of
baseball coaches out there. It just it felt like at least
where I was, you know, being in Minnesota that it just didn't
feel like there were a lot of other good baseball, coaches
around me that were really pushing the edge that had
something different to say than what I had been brought up with
Yeah, I think it's bad thing. I mean there's all these about
to unpack. What you want to three to get
rolling on the video? Again I don't I could keep
unpacking this but I also got this because some good stuff
coming up here. So this is true.
I do want to actually do the mentorship.
I like concept. I do want to actually explore
that a little bit more since we're on that topic and then
let's then maybe a loop back to the video.
Unless you, do you have anything on the mentorship work?
Because because I've been thinking about this like, This
is to me, one of the things that I think is a challenge right
now. It is that element.
And I do think it's tied in with this thing of play, so maybe,
all right. I want a, my yeah, we can
explore a little bit and then we can probably about right back in
these. I do think I do think it's bad
because I was almost going to go down that route but I was like,
almost like attacking another topic, but I do see how it's
going to tie back in, but this was really cool.
So, and I think you'll appreciate this law.
So our Inspiration Academy, right?
I mean, obviously, I've already used Inspire like that was the
root word of our, like, to inspire.
But one of the biggest things we call ourselves a If that model
and hmm it's innovate Inspire or Inspire and Val know which ones
to come first and then Mentor in the whole point.
We call it mentor to model. I mean it's basically we say
it's technically discipleship model.
So if you're, if you're going to look at the Biblical term, it's
discipleship, but we don't use the word discipleship, just a
little more understandable but it's same concept either way
where I'll actually have opportunity as a coach to be a
mentor, over a select number of our own players.
And we're going through pretty much any topic and what's lost?
I think in society, a lot is having good mentors.
And I don't know if you and your kind of talk about you can find
many in the baseball realm, but I personally was like starving
for good, older mentor. And it's something like I
almost, I would intentionally would pray about just finding a
good Mentor. Like, somebody just come into my
life. And I never really saw that
happen and nobody like I always thought it'd be somebody like
coming to me and wanting to Mentor me and that's where I
think. I thought it would take me but I
found a lack of that and a huge lack of that to the point where
I started having to seek it out and it almost became more peers,
mentors and peers at a certain point because I was more
comfortable like bringing some of the topics up to my own
peers, then maybe somebody that's a little older gone
through stuff. But you hear all these stories
of like this person was at this, this mentor and I think I mean
I'm Simon sinek. I forget his exact story but I
mean he had an incredible Mentor early in his life that changed
the course of everything for him and you hear those Those and I
was like, I don't have any of that.
So like, mentors mentors for me, became podcast, became books and
it's like you can be mentored by that to an extent and I think
you can get a lot of good information.
I got to get wisdom but that human connection that
relationship that working one-on-one which I'm so blessed.
I'm a school that prioritizes that and like I can be a mentor
and I'm part of another mentorship group where I have a
mental over me. So like we're continually
feeding into somebody's feeding into me and I'm peeing in
somebody else and their job is to Over mentors.
Over younger people will like my post grads a lot of our mentors
over these younger, these younger groups of their school,
we have 12th, 12th graders, sixth graders.
So it's it's a unique model, I would say.
But something that I think is lost, and I think needs to
definitely needs to resurface and I see the need more than
ever to have quality mentors in your life.
And like, I just saw the Gap Gap in my own.
And now I'm almost like, on the Ernie like one.
How do I seek out a better mentor?
And that's a question. I pondered myself.
Like how do I take the initiative and seek somebody
out? Obviously, I'm in a model that
gave me one. But without that, how do I go
get one? And the other one.
How can I approach? Somebody intentionally work in
their lives in a semi formal way, but again it's life.
Never that formal, I don't think so.
How can you work your way into? Like hey like I'm here for you?
Like I'll be we can talk about anything and stuff things like
that. I think it happens organically.
And coaching a little bit. But how do you be more
intentional that those are? Those are kind of two questions
I played with a good bit through this journey.
Yeah. And like you said, there's
there's a lot there to unpack. I mean, the first Can a thing
for me, you know, similarly, I was looking for for a mentor and
was hoping that someone would take me under their wing and it
kind of helped me along and yeah, that didn't seemingly ever
materialized. So to speak, it did more so on
the strength and conditioning side.
And so you know there was at least for me it seemed like the
path was a lot clearer on the snc side it was you know
internships like I just heard that ERM very early on and, you
know, looking into cressey performance.
And then I kind of saw that that was the model, The Way Forward
of like kind of learning underneath other people and
then, and then from that, I eventually kind of found
somebody to Mentor me and I specifically asked like hey
would you mind mentoring me? But they showed the
characteristics that that made me comfortable enough to even
ask that because they, they were interested in learning
themselves. They were always continuing to
grow themselves and then they were, they were willing to meet
up and to teach me, you know, some of the things that they
were doing. And so, I mean, the one thing
that that I really really struck me.
In or when I was at crécy performance was the fact that
they did in Services weekly and I find that that's not super
common. And so when I think about it
from the standpoint of You know, you have some of these really
good older, you know, older coaches like how often are you
having a weekly in service where you're presenting on something
and you're trying to teach your younger player?
Something, you know, obviously, you know, oftentimes how it
works in coaching staffs is that you just have former players be
your coaches, because they already know your system.
You don't have to pour into them as much and you know, I think
there's some value to that, but at the same point there, you
know, I I always wanted more structure and that was one of
the things that I liked it being at the division, one level, like
there were more more weekly meetings and to try to get on
the same page. And and for me that's I think
that's important because otherwise you just have a bunch
of people just showing up doing their own thing and you hope to
at some level you know, everybody's doing stuff in
parallel and at some level you hope that everything kind of
converges and works together and I don't Oftentimes there, you
just have risks and I think that hurts the player experience, but
I digress a little bit. I so that was kind of my
experience though when it came to mentorships and trying to
find a mentor. And so that is something that I
I want to see if we could maybe potentially figure something out
on that front. And and that got me thinking
about like a Wonder because when it comes to mentorship you know
I've heard this saying that I got it from Tai Lopez and I know
Ty Lopez got it from somebody else.
But this idea of having like you know of your relationships,
having a third, being people who are older and wiser than you
that that are kind of mentoring you and then the peer-to-peer
another third being cured of pure mentorship.
I've been finding that when it comes to Baseball and skill
acquisition. I end up doing a lot more
peer-to-peer stuff and then and then you also then you have like
the other third of relationships where you are mentoring people
who are I guess not not at your level yet or younger and just
up-and-coming more novices. It's so that that's always kind
of stuck with me, but I've always seem to find that it's
much harder to find the top that top third Is is really the more
difficult one? so, what I've been kind of
thinking around this of like trying to help and facilitate
mentorship is in a way. I think just having a hub where
people can interact and so that there is a way for people to
connect and just see who clicks with you.
So I've been thinking about this in terms of Discord and trying
to do something with the Discord that I have.
I don't know if you've heard of it Garrett, I put together this
thing called the coaches. Was it the I love how I don't.
I don't have it like memorize right off the top of my head
right now. I don't II am I am part of it
back like this board. That's the only thing I got, is
it baseball coaches clubhouse as sounds, right?
I'm trying to look at my. Just had yeah.
Baseball, coaches Clubhouse. So, so I got I'm thinking about
trying to, by the time we release this, right?
The, by the time we release this, maybe we'll have something
in there. The plan is to start doing
something with with the baseball, coaches Clubhouse, to
create a place to connect people.
And then also to Foster mentorship.
Whether it's peer-to-peer, or I want to say What's a what's a
better word peer-to-peer and then you have your wise mentor
to mentee older older to younger?
Yeah. Type of a deal.
Wiser to less lies, we'll figure out her.
Yep, yep. But that's, that's kind of my
goal there with or one of the other goals with with the
baseball, coaches Clubhouse is is to provide a way for people
to connect for mentorship. I've seen this in In.
So, Joel Credo, has as a big group me chat and, you know,
people seem to connect, or just start rant like, serendipitous
conversations in there. And that's, that's kind of the
hope of starting serendipitous conversations and just kind of
see who you naturally gravitate towards.
But there's, there's this idea too that I think might come up
with what Rafe and John Vicki are kind of talking about here
when it comes to play. and so, I think this is a good segue to
jump back over to the video because When it comes to growth,
I really think play is an important piece to that will
kind of expand upon that here in a second.
Yeah, so I mean, I'm right up against this with trying to
articulate what makes somebody a good teacher and it's can't
replace the wise use of Charisma with just the, you know, the
methodological application of technique.
It's just not the same. Something happened to Media.
All right, we got a, we got to, but God, I cover, just what he
just said there. R.
So I do want to back this up a little bit and talk I suppose we
got to talk a little bit about Charisma because I think that's
one thing that we left out of those those those three pieces.
So I think the first one that Rafe talked about was
relationships and then the the second one was knowledge and
then the third piece was Charisma to kind of pull all
that in. And for myself, that is
something that I really feel like I struggle, With is
charisma like to you? What how do you define Charisma?
But maybe describe someone who is very charismatic person to
you. I think about a personal level
here. I know I've interacted with kind
of think of a good example of somebody.
I mean, I think when I think of charismatic I guess right off
the rip. I think of like a very know,
like a like a Pete, Carroll maybe.
Like and I know, I know players love him.
He's a very charismatic coach and I think he connects with a
lot of players and he shows is your dad like, I mean for him.
His care how we kind of displays as like extreme passion
excitement and I know he's been known as like a player's coach
and he's very much very much for his as for his players and he
like gets extreme buy-in and almost like creates like he kind
of I know, Ray path. I thought it kind of creates
those connections because of his great Charisma.
I think you're almost like any other side if you stay in
football. Example, like Bill Belichick's
actually opposite. You may not like I think in a
traditional sense at least my brain if we went quickly go like
that's a charismatic Coast. But I think he isn't it just
that a different way. And I think players talked to
him in a similar light as be careful what they look
completely different. But they're both able to create
those connections to encourage their players to run their
certain system completely different, how they how they
play. But at the end of the day,
they're both encouraging creating connections and getting
their players to play in a very, very specific system and a very
specific way and they're both having extreme success doing it.
So to me, it's a little little more out of egg side, but I
think you see it displayed in different.
Current ways. If you're kind of, if you're
going to follow what I'm saying, that yeah, and when I think of
Charisma almost think of like personality, the person has a
very Magnetic Personality into your points.
You know, it can manifest itself in in a couple of different
ways, it can, it can be someone who is very outgoing, you could
say, extroverted type personality.
But some introverted personality is because it sounded like Bill
Belichick his personality sound, a little bit more introverted.
And that can still have a similar pull and I guess for
myself, it's trying to figure out what is that personality
because or what it for me, I've always struggled with like,
okay, how can I have good Charisma?
I always felt like to, it was a form of manipulation and in a
way it is but That's I had to work through that.
In terms of, if my goal is to help people get to where they
want to go, then, is it really necessarily manipulation if it's
the thing that helps move things forward in terms of, you know, I
used to look at physical touch as being a way that, you know,
people would, you know, used to manipulate you.
And then I started realizing well.
People actually don't like, you could give them all the right
information but they won't feel right about it.
If you don't have like, if you don't shake on it, like that.
It was, I was listening to a story of how, you know deals
would fall through simply because somebody didn't take the
other person's hand and it just went to show the importance of
physical touch it. And you know, the handshake is
not the same as like pulling somebody in clothes and put on
your hand around their shoulder, you know, where to me, that
that's always felt manipulative. I was like, oh well, if if all
the rest of the, this physical touch works the same way and
just the fact that I've always taken physical touch, you know,
even the way that I say that, Just sounds like it's very
intimate which in a way it is but like that's the thing of
when it comes to human connection.
Like we need something to Anchor to make it feel palatable.
It just can't be logically correct?
That's just not how we as humans operate.
And so once I understood that, oh, if I want somebody to
actually accept something then I actually have to deliver it in
such a way that they will actually accept it.
And so having Charisma having something that may seem
manipulative actually is not It's the way it's the form.
It's the currency by which we actually connect and adopt new
ways of interacting and so. That that for me, helped me kind
of to shift my mind a little bit on Charisma.
But I guess the other part of Charisma that I think I've also
struggled with is this idea of confidence, especially when for
me, I don't want to ever like lie to athletes and give them a
false picture of some things. And now the way that I've
Rationalized it is sometimes they can't hit like I only got
to give sometimes, I can't over inundate you with information,
but what ended up happening, though, before is by not trying
to lie to players and give them a false sense of like, hey, if
you throw away, two balls, you're going to throw harder,
you know, just throw these as hard as you can, you know, and
just keep it as simple as that and like this be the end-all
be-all or like what was for me? true at one point in time was
just getting the weight room, you'll get better like old lift
weights and It turns out the answer is way more nuanced than
that and in the effort to get kids to do things that are going
to be for their best, infant it interest.
Sometimes we oversell the merits of a thing and then what
inadvertently happens like, yes, you get the buy-in right now,
but the danger that I've always seen is that you get to buy in
now. But then later on, they overdo
it because they're running with that idea, and now, there's now
they're becoming a weight room athlete, and now they're getting
better. At the weight room and they're
not getting any better out on the field.
And so this is, this is for me why I often times felt like I
came off as less confident is because I was always hedging
trying to hedge my answers. And now I've started to see it
more as in frame, it in such a way of like, okay, here's the
information you need right now and I'll give you that other
information. But I've always, I think that
just kind of how my mind has worked is.
I'm always trying to counteract the Tended consequences.
And so I've always tried to approach players in the sense
of, well, if they never interacted with me, ever again.
So I'm trying to set you up to not need me and then
inadvertently, I over inundate you with information.
Like, there's this thing of we have to allow athletes time to
process what we say. And good coaches in the same way
as good speakers, good comedians, they allow the, it's
all about timing providing time for the mind to kind of catch up
for it to sit, for a moment and then proceed and that's
something that I'm still working on.
But now I'm much more aware of, like, the power of silence.
And I feel like I've talked with another coach today and he was
mentioning that One of some of the other coaches they're always
saying something to their athletes.
And so he feels that when they get out of the cage like if you
wanted to help them out with something like there's just no
there's the athlete has no more bandwidth to take any in any any
more information and he feels like the best thing that he can
do as a coach for them is not to say anything and that that just
I could tell he was struggling just like I often do is like
that is serving an important purpose then, but it makes you
seem unimportant to the player because now the player is always
going to go look to the coach, who's who's always giving them
information in and add something that I struggle with to, right
now, a little bit as well. Love Trying to balance that and,
you know, I give guys, more autonomy right now than I think
some, some of our other coaches do.
I'm hoping like, I mean, I plan on doing more but at the same
point, I don't want. I know that you can over q a
player and so that's super hard of trying to figure out like,
how do you work that balance when you have to work together
with another coach? And you're both coaching the
same group of athletes. How do you not over Coach a
player? When that's, that's super easy
to do? But I digress.
Yeah, no I think I feel like that that alone would resonate a
lot of people, especially that are exploring.
The LA Cody is I'm in the same boat.
We will have technically three pitching Minds in our Academy
and I'm probably the deepest. I think.
I think our coaching staff as a whole has grown grown, a lot and
starting to understand some of these Concepts.
I know Rob Graves new book has helped helped a lot
understanding some of these concepts for I think.
Now for coaches on staff have the book which has been awesome
to be able to kind of dig through those topics and then
start trying to apply them. But I've seen that too.
Where I, I'll be like this kid just got queued up left and
right. It's like, okay, where do we,
where do I want to step in? Or I'll be working with them and
then I'll look, I'm a minute or two later and then he's getting
queued up with a bunch of different thoughts and where my
whole goal was to not even have the player think we're just
gonna, we're going to create the great, the environment and see
if I can List It. Was it what I was looking for?
Listen to the change, I was looking for and then the players
thinking through it and I feel like I'm always in the spot
where, okay, well everything I just did.
I want to say is useless but I feel like just got taken over
because that's not gonna in my mind so I can transfer any more.
He is in a pressure situation, you don't have jobs at Portage
to be thinking through this or this or this when your
intentions are completely different than standing in front
of a screen, throwing a pliable. So that's that's definitely
something I think anybody in this in this, Ellie's this
exploration of these theories will struggle with and I don't
know if I have the answer yet and especially dealing with
other coaches, that maybe our aren't as educated on it or
maybe don't even that's a bye into the approach quite yet.
And that's, I mean, that can be a whole nother topic of how even
how to even approach that and how to even go into things that
we've done in the past. But that that is Is one of the
harder ones. But I mean, tire back to the
Charisma. It's how do you because?
I think we're both and I could be wrong on this, but a little
more little, more reserved, an introvert in some ways,
especially on feel, you haven't seen you coach, but I think, and
I just based on a conversation, it would be more more of that.
And I'm not a physical touch person by Nature, like I kind of
shy. I'm at Northeast, did that
physical touch is, like, you touch me?
I was like, what's going on here?
Why don't we? What I know.
How are you trying to manipulate me, right?
Now, what's going on? Yeah, yeah, super uncomfortable.
And I like Flinch away from the person instead of just, like,
accept the fact that he's putting my hand on the shoulder
and like trying, but what I noticed at times even though
it's uncomfortable with it, there's times, especially as one
coach, when I was younger. He would.
It was a very welcoming I guess touch to the shoulder as he
greeted you or he's trying to teach you a concept or you're
struggling a little bit, it almost like it would create a
connection between between me and him and it almost I feel
like he's he's with me on this journey and a lot of ways and I
think that creates that connection that I sometimes will
act because I'm not willing to go and explore that physical
touch. A lot of times just because like
that's how I grew up. That's what the me if I'm
looking for an athlete and all the other options, I can to help
my athlete, the touching them on the shoulder and trying to
create that connection is not important at this point.
If I wouldn't, if I could put it in that terms, like that is not
an option of mine, unless I'm intentionally thinking on that.
But I do think it's extremely important.
I have just just for our conversation and thinking
through it, I remember specific times where it's like, I felt
connected to that coach, I felt like there was this is open
communication just based on him just putting his hand on my
shoulder and it's like showing that hey, I'm with you or hey,
how you doing, man? Like how was that things are
actually going? It was very well.
Yeah, and there's I have like two things 11 to do with like
the first issue that you brought up and then one on the
connection piece because I think when it comes to I hate when I
do this. This is so like for for the the
feel of Now, I remembered it as a, I hate, I hate though, when I
want to talk, I lose it. But this this actually Loops,
in, in. Well, in terms of, when it comes
to the touch stuff, especially, because that's something that
I've struggled with, you know, like, for me being reserved and
when we're talking about Charisma, I think of Charisma is
something like you're really good at talking in front of a
group. Yeah.
And for me, I've continually recognized because I've failed
so many times at it. It, I'm so bad at talking in
front of a group. It's because I recognize that it
really helps players to have clear Direction when the coach
is able to speak, well, to the group and generally speaking,
I've always struggled with that. There might have been a time
where you know, I wasn't so bad at it and I think that when I
think back it was when I was coaching Junior Legion, but for
the most part, especially in more recent history, I've rare,
I've really struggled With that. And that kind of comes back to
this this notion of being like good with Charisma.
And I kind of Wonder, you know, for someone who is more
introverted who isn't good as at giving the rah-rah speeches I
think. It's one of those things where I
looked at it in terms of well I just need more practice and so
sorry guys. This is going to be brutal for a
while but that that just kind of goes to the fact that I'm much
better when I'm doing one-on-one though.
And the reason that I'm much better at doing one-on-one is I
only have to manage one person or maybe to people's thoughts
and I can because that's the thing that I am much more
sensitive to is to like what other people are thinking.
And like if one person is thinking X or whatever, then I'm
immediately drawn over there and then when it's a whole group and
then you get the feel of the group then you're like, oh man,
I'm now really. Distracted off my point, just
because I'm looking around, I'm seeing, who isn't it?
Connecting with. Well, I can't destroy.
And so, I guess that for me is being someone who does much
better on a one-on-one or a small group basis.
I'm able to connect with everybody in the group and kind
of divert and kind of go down different paths.
Whereas in a large group setting those constraints I don't do as
well with and so I'm still trying to navigate through that
and figure out. What's the appropriate way to
kind of bridge that And this kind of Loops back though, to
what we're talking about before with. what do we do when we're
not on the same page, you know, or there's just a lot of other
voices speaking to the athletes, while you're trying to work with
them and what I've kind of how I've approached it right now is,
Really kind of have to die to the ego part because like some
of its like and I I know that what this other person is saying
there are some down side effects to this and now they're getting
to internally focused Etc and now there's I think this is the
biggest thing of over queuing is that the athlete does because
there's so much information being thrown at them?
They don't know what to focus on.
Yeah. This this was typified to me
when I was coaching at a facility one time in a player,
came in from a Bullpen. And he was frustrated and I
asked him just like, hey, how'd it go?
And he's like I don't even know and I asked him well what do
what were you working on his? Like I have no idea and that
just like That it just made something clicked in my mind of.
Wow, I was just ask them like, well, what did you work on?
He listed off like five different things and it was
like, okay that's why you had no idea what you're working.
I'm like what did you come here for?
What would it be? What were your goals Etc?
You know and because the coach had him throw a bunch of
fastball just like my fastball is good for for my level.
Like I need to work on my slider.
I didn't throw a single slider and it was like okay this is
this that was kind of that conversation made.
It click of. We part of the reason why we we
should be over, cueing guys, is the fact that they just don't
know what they're working on anymore, after a certain point.
And so what I then kind of now, see my job as a coach is,
especially when I'm working with a group of coaches is once the
athlete gets done. When I talk to them, I have to
only give them one or two things and I go your next round, when
it comes to hitting your next round.
I only want you to focus on this.
Or you know, with this one athlete, I gave him two things.
I want you to focus on, hit the ball off, the top of the cage
and I want to make and I want you to focus on making sure you
don't stop moving. Don't don't come to a pause
ever, you know, for when you when you're making the swing
some some part of your body needs to be moving the whole
time. And so I left them with those
two things and you know, let the other coach kind of, you know,
interact with him as however he saw fit.
But to me that That was a way of trying to simplify it for, for
the hitter. Now, I probably was pushing my
luck a little bit too much. You know, given two things but
this was this would be my recommendation.
Like don't ever give a player more than two things to focus on
at any one point in time and so you know in an ideal world you
just give them one and if it's not working like give yourself a
certain number of Reps for them to try to work it out and don't
jump in the first, you know, as soon as they mess up like Let
that like if you want them to discover the answer, if we go
back to the beginning of this conversation, if you want them
to be able to discover the answer, you have to leave them
room to be able to do that and and so sometimes you can you can
let the athlete know beforehand because I see this all the time
with hitting where they get in there and they're just going to
take a bunch of reps and then you feel bad jumping at least
for me I feel bad jumping in now that they're five swings in and
they're just rolling to like stop them in the middle of what
they're doing. So generally, if I want to do
that and I know Going to want to change up.
What they're doing. I'm going to say for the next
like five or four swings, you know, I want you to focus on
this and then just stop and like let's have a conversation before
you take your next like four or five swings.
And that's a good way to control the round because like too many
guys take way too many reps but I digress again.
But that, that on the When it comes to working with other
coaches who would there's a lot of voices.
I I see like an easy way for someone to provide value and
that space is to then distill that down and clarify for that
athlete to bring it to a focal point.
So that they can, they can have something very clear and
tangible to focus on. And so I think that's what,
what's going to be most helpful for athletes in that situation.
Yeah, I think that's about all but so I think we kind of hit
that Charisma Point really well. I'm going to replay this point
and then and we'll go through this because this is super easy
Cody. Even though I don't know that
he's a, he's super aware of it but I can imagine Verve a key is
Because I did you watch for make you as part of that four
horsemen. Yeah, I'm relation with Peterson
and Peterson was talking about Gigi Gibson and Verve.
A key jumped in on that, anyways.
Yeah, that's cool. For the u9 Gibsonia and people
apologies. But you're going to hear us talk
a lot about Gibson. Hopefully at some point get in
deep rapport with this student or the or the athlete.
I think that's also, I mean, I brought up against this with
trying to articulate what makes somebody the teacher and it's
can't replace the wise use of Charisma with just the, you
know, the methodological application of technique it's
just not the same. Thing happened to me.
The other night that is so in virgin with what you're saying,
my partner and I, we were listening to some music and I
sort of knew she liked the Moonlight Sonata and I sort of
played it on my phone and then she stopped, he stopped, go and
look up this, and look at the Moonlight Sonata by this person,
and she's a trained musician. I'm not.
And so, I go and get this other one and I play it.
And she's saying things like, notice how he's robbing a little
bit of timing from this note and giving it to that.
No. Notice.
How its deep. And and she unfolds this
appreciation, When I go, oh my gosh, this is so much better.
The other was mechanical, right? It's perfect technique, but it's
missing all of this, right? It's missing all of this other
stuff. A lot of times the thing. so, I
think Him bringing up, we can't replace Charisma, they may be
correct me if I'm wrong, is he saying?
We can't replace krismo with this scientific and I'm changing
the word slightly, the scientific perfect technique.
Approach because I feel like that has been the approach for
baseball and that was the approach that I took as a coach
was you know what, I don't need to be manipulative when it comes
to you know, emotional appeals and you know having a ton of
Charisma. Instead I can lean on technique
instead and taking a scientific data driven approach to this and
this will make up for for that fact that I lack in this.
Our area. and, And essentially prove a key here is saying that
that that's not that's not the right approach like you can't.
technique will not replace the skill in the art of Dexterity, I
guess you could say. I don't know.
That's I'm trying to think of a kind of what the other side.
Do you have the other side of what?
Verve a key is actually arguing for, you know, because he is
right there, he argued against perfect technique.
And instead, what did he argue for?
Yeah, I think I think I know. I think you're kind of, on the
right track at least where my brain went with it.
That you, you can't replace Charisma or creating that
connection and almost like being that guy that wants to pull the
athlete towards doing something, with just having the perfect
technique or having these perfect schemes or perfect,
perfect way to go about it. Again, like I would say the same
way that I started coaching like it was I knew exactly how to
train you. I knew all the all the ways that
are going to make you throw faster, throw a better
curveballs, breaking ball changeup, whatever it may be.
I knew how to do all that. But that's all I had and I
didn't know how to great day off because I think you had just
have that you're never going to bring that Athlete on the
journey along with you. You have all the information but
how's the athlete absorbing that information?
How's that athlete? Going on a journey to find what
you're looking for out of that athlete?
I think I think that's where he's going with.
That is if you look at those three things that you talked
about like knowledge Brave, talk about knowledge is the second
one. And then the third one is
charisma and you can't you can't take you can't put knowledge.
Judge above the Charisma piece, you can't, you can't just care
for the athlete. Have really good knowledge and
not have good Charisma, to help actually connect those possibly
two together and take this family or whoever it may be a
long, long, and a journey and actually elicit the response or
the engagement with the information that you're looking
for. I think that's that's where my
brain with that. And to now that I'm thinking a
little bit more on it, there's this element what he's
describing is Art. So there's the mechanic that
mechanical Menace of Italy because I remember when I was
you know, coming up and you know playing baseball I started going
to a lot more clinics and then we everybody started talking
about mechanics and then I got really focused on doing the
drills because I thought that was going to be the thing that
would get me ahead is doing all the drills.
Doing the all the mechanics the right way.
Because, you know what, I had heard from coaches is they want
players who are coachable and so, my whole Focus was to do it.
Exactly. Then how they talked about it.
And, you know, the funny thing was, is that also some coaches,
but then also, a lot of the other players to are like, man,
you're just like a robot and I mean, when you think about it,
if you're talking about mechanics, that's how you're
viewing, it is robotically. I mean that that's where
mechanics comes out of like if we're talking about
biomechanics, Nick's whatever in your, I mean, in a way you're
viewing things as as Machinery. Yeah.
And so, It's just interesting but the reality is that we're
we're live, organic animate beings, not robots.
And so in that sense, what what I think for vehicie is talking
about here, is that We need to. Make things come alive because
what he was describing with playing the piano like, okay,
yeah, you can play it in all the technicality of it but it has
no, I guess Charisma. It has no Charisma.
It has no personality to it when you do it that way.
But when when you understand something so well that when you
listen to this other artists play that same song as he was
describing it, you know, his wife or not wife, but his, his
significant other They're talking about how.
This artist was taking time a little bit from one note, and
giving it to another to give the same piece or character and some
some actual life, some flow. And and I think that when we're
talking about what it means to coach and what it means to
create an environment where ourselves and the players can be
I guess what, 04 create an environment for our, for our
players. And for ourselves to to Really
flourish like we actually have to allow for this aliveness
where there's a little bit give and take.
Where one thing that was really interesting to me when I was in
doing my undergrad in college, I took this sport sport management
class and the tennis coach was the professor and he was talking
we had this one lecture on Iran. I want to say deviance I think
was was the was what it was on and how Iron sports teams are
deviant to some extent. The question is how deviant are
they? And he kind of helped, you know,
at least for me like realize like, oh deviance is part of the
game. It's a question of like, how
much can you push the rules? Because the rules aren't always
literally enforced. And so every team in every I in
a way he made it seem like every good team and every good player
is always trying to push the edges of the rules in the
boundaries to see what how the game is actually played, what
are the actual boundaries. And so when I thinking about
This analogy or this story that Verve a key is giving on the
piano playing what the piano this artist.
This really good artist is doing is they're playing with the
boundaries of the music. So let's say just as a to keep
it simple, the song is still the same length.
But the artist borrowed a little bit of time from one note to the
other two, actually. Try to push the boundaries of
what the song could be to make it come more alive.
And that is part of being alive is playing with these boundaries
and seeing what you can push, what you can get away with.
And can you still get the peace to be in harmony to sound good
to be pleasing? And when you think about it in
terms of like playing the game, we're always trying to you know,
push the boundaries, push the edge and see what we can make of
it till like, find new heights to do to perform better too.
I don't know. It's just, it's very trying to
think of more Reaching words. Yeah, I mean, okay, so here, I
don't know if you like that. Let me know if you factor this,
but one way almost look at it, like trying to connect it back
to the baseball a little bit. Like I think back in my I think
it's like, first thing is, I'm a listen to this video.
My brain went immediately to remember that tag by Javier
Baez. It was, I don't remember, it was
in the World Baseball Classic, maybe, and it was just, like,
was not perfect. Technique whatsoever is like
really flashy, but I mean it captured captured all of the
Baseball and that everybody was playing it and everybody was
amazed by it and it's like he created his own Flair into the
game and the skillful way where he just it was just a tag.
But if you're going to, if you're going to look at perfect
technique, that's not perfect technique at all.
No coach is going to teach that, but because of his his
abilities, he knew that was an affordance for him and he was
able to play without with the out, the technique and break out
of the technique in a lot of ways.
And you'll see guys like a like, I think of Vlad Guerrero right
away. I mean that guy at the dish, I
mean with the ball was coming towards them.
He has a chance to hit it and he went outside your traditionally,
nobody's going to coach him like that.
And what coach is going to have tell him to be swinging at
pitches that are bouncing at the plate, or outside the zone, and
that's where you're going to break him.
But yeah, I mean that's what that's we're gonna try to keep
my feet myself on folks here. But, like, the idea of these at
these, athletes can play outside of technique and create this,
create this beautiful picture of athleticism and what their
capabilities are Our and I think of, like this is this, it right
here, not this one, but I mean, here's there's, there's it was,
I mean, there's tags like that. I'm looking for it because this
one had looked like it had the Baseball Classic and it here in
here somewheres Is it at the end?
I mean all these all these are like speaking - yeah, right?
Boom. I mean I think that's that's one
of the things that's interesting and just watching it like the
no-look tag. Yeah.
I mean why does he need to look, I mean, okay, so this this is
where it gets great from like a perceptual standpoint to write
that. You don't To use your full
perception and kinesthetic awareness and feel for like,
where people are around you and to have a good sense of like,
where things are. Like you kind of only need to
like you need to have a sense of the bag and a feel for the other
person. Yeah.
I mean, so like I'm thinking about like, what information is
he picking up? He's getting information out of
his periphery they're like oh here we go.
World Baseball Classic, right? Yeah, no.
Look at that point, the catcher as he's catching a tag at this.
Like, Yeah. it's so, Yeah. I mean these are the things
where yeah it's not textbook perfect but at the same point
that play is alive and that's what everybody is connecting
with like that Charisma is drawing people in and and I do
think to your point. It's it's the passion.
The passion is the stuff that I think people actually connect
with. You know, I've heard a lot of
people talk about really what people are looking for players
included is authenticity because so much so much of our world Is,
you know, people putting on a front and and all that sort of
thing. And it's it kind of goes back to
this idea that I heard from Keith David's of creating a safe
environment for uncertainty. Because that is most like when
you're thinking about like, do you know a lot of what our world
has become is very ordered and things are safe because
everything is ordered and and sometimes when things are a
little bit more complex, though there's still a level of order
to that. But then when you get into the
real world, where there's a lot where the problems are a lot
more ambiguous, then Things become a lot more difficult to
figure out. Like, how should I behave, how
should I go about solving this? And so, If we want players to be
able to thrive in that environment, where there's a lot
more ambiguity which is the game of baseball, let's just be
honest, because in the game of baseball, you can throw the
pitch exactly where you want it to be in.
Not get the result that you're looking for a guy, absolutely
crushes. It, you can be a hitter and
swing and take an ugly looking swing and it be a hit And into.
If you do that enough enough times it get enough hits with
it. Like is that is that really just
a mistake you're getting lucky or is that actually skill at?
What point is it looking at what point is it skill but point
being is that the game operates in a level of ambiguity in terms
of what is correct. And what is it?
Because like I found this and this is partially why I've
gravitated towards an ecological approach is I was always chasing
the latest And greatest mechanical aesthetic.
Yeah, I guess for lack of a better word but like, always
looking for the next thing in terms of what's the new secret
to hitting from a mechanical standpoint?
And it just got it's just like, man I I feel like I'm always
like, chasing this, like chasing my tail in a way or just like
chasing the chasing this other, I guess, dog around.
I don't know it. Maybe, maybe the better better
example is talking about it in terms of Ecclesiastes in, like
just it's just heavily. It's just a vapor it just like
you feel like you got it and then there's something new and
better out there. And in the way that we thought
of doing things is now wrong. Like I guess that that is is
probably the main thing. And this is where From an
ecological perspective. I don't I don't I don't have to
be married to a specific thing. Not that I don't believe in
biomechanics and the importance of biomechanics.
I just now view it through the lens of an ecological approach.
And I only go into that mechanical or biomechanical.
Toolbox. When I deem it, you know, when
the athlete really needs it. We're looking for more power as
an example, but I digress once again.
Yeah I mean I feel like we're only what a couple minutes into
this video and with but this isn't this is my point of like
why for me it was never about to be completely Frank.
It was never about getting through the whole video as more
about using these videos to facilitate a conversation that
otherwise sometimes will get stale because we can always fall
back on the video. Yeah.
To to use it to spark more conversation.
That's my thought. Yeah.
No, no. I the kind of go back to this
circle back to a quick but like that.
Then yeah, I'm safe and certainty.
I think I think that there that was the point.
That was a point. Yeah.
Safe and certainty to me to is
like, you get to that spot that's uncertain to within
within training with any within anything.
Honestly and you'll notice like you are so much more engaged in
what you're doing. And I think it can produce low
and the Ability to get into a potential Flow State or to be
fully immersed in whatever you're doing.
Don't want to eat which it willing increase learning and
all this stuff. If you have that little bit on a
little bit of uncertainty, just because once you're in a safe,
certain environment, you're basically doing this like row
repetition is basically like rep after rep after rep.
Which is I think the difference between me Cody and maybe like,
a nympho processing like rep after rep here today gets very
boring, I think it increases or decreases.
The passion is going to be lost will be that Chris most probably
gonna be lost from it. But you live in that safe and
certain spot where you can kind of create, and you have to solve
problems, and you have to explore a little bit.
And I've noticed that with my own life, with my own training,
with my own coaching, with coaching others, I think living
with in that safe and certainty. And you don't want to like
that's across that outside of that safe are often.
That's where sometimes turkey, making sure you're still in that
safe uncertain box, but I think that's, that's where it lives.
That's It's alive. I would say probably the best
word cord. Yeah, into I guess we're, I was
trying to go with that is because the game has a level of
uncertainty about it, especially because the opponent Etc creates
a level of the unknown. This is why we need to train
with that in mind. Yeah.
Why we need to create a level of the players need to feel safe.
You know. Like it's so for example, for
me, I understand why some coaches are really hard on their
players, right? Because the game is really hard
on them, so we want to prepare them for that, but if the
players can't don't feel safe around you then when it gets
time for the game, now they have two threats that they're worried
about The team out there and the coaches in the Dugout and and
that's where for for me it becomes.
I want to be as a coach the place where they feel safe and
I've got their back and then that frees them up like you're
talking about that keeps them engaged.
It frees them up to actually engage more with the, with the
problem out there to band together that, hey, we're all in
this together. There's this big, daunting
threat out there, which is the game.
I mean, let's just be honest, right?
The pitch is coming at, like, you know, now 105, right?
You know if you're facing Aaron Hicks.
Now, obviously, you know, in the college setting or whatever in
high school, you probably not facing 105, but, you know, to
face 90 90. Plus, I mean, that is a very
daunting task. For any amateur athlete.
And so, To me, we have to create an environment where they feel
like we that the threat isn't also in the Dugout because the
threat is definitely out there. There's a huge challenge that
they face out on that field and if they don't feel supported and
safe, then they're not going to feel, they're always going to be
operating under threat mode and it just doesn't allow for the
best to come out of out of players in my opinion.
Yeah. So That's where I was going with
that. Yeah, I think.
Yeah. It comes down to like almost
encouraging failure in a lot of ways or having a safe space to
fail and explore this. You're never going to, you're
never you get the exploration of your players or never get that
willingness to thrive. Maybe try things, if they're not
willing to fail and then you can that easily ties into the game.
If you've already encourage failure and like your, you've,
that failure is something that we're going to be about.
We're going to be about failing, learn from it and be able to To
encourage that you come to a game family size that I think.
I think too though the way that I would phrase it because I'm
with other coaches, that might push back and be like What's
this failure thing? Like we don't want to encourage
failure. And so rather the way that I
would frame it is that Don't be afraid to fail in seeking
greatness. Yeah, you know, like I want you
to attempt to try to do something that's slightly beyond
your ability, like find discover an affordance discover something
that it that you think is possible in just beyond your
reach or your grasp and it's safe to try for something great
and to fall short. And and fruit to me as a coach
my job, then is to after you, you make that, that effort, I'm
going to encourage you to try again.
And then when you when you make it, I'm going to celebrate,
because here's the thing to sometimes you're going to try on
the first time for something that you have never done before
and you're going to achieve it and we're all going to celebrate
with you. And so, for me, when we're
talking about this failure thing, I think too many people
have, and I understand to it took me a while to, to come to
this conclusion, but too many people have made it sound, like
failure is, okay, and, and I don't, and for the really Ali
competitive. That doesn't, it doesn't make
any sense, but if you're really competitive and you want to
succeed, you have to understand that in order to succeed you're
going to fail along the way towards that success and that
failure is comes from you trying to succeed and just
understanding that. That is that process of you,
trying to do something that you've never done before and to
reach your full potential. And so that for me, is why I
think we should frame it that way and and frame it as this is
the road to success. And this is the because because
it hinges on this whole idea in this notion of safe uncertainty
because what is uncertain, is your success.
Yeah. And so we want to create a safe
environment for you to succeed. Yeah.
Do I like that a lot? Because I think my brain
immediately go through because I'm more in that where other
people's aren't maybe the Eco D3.
A lot of projects where you look at like a skateboarder.
And they, they knew try and they fail and they fail, and they
fail, and they fail, and they fail and fail, then they finally
hit it. And it's like the greatest hit
but that it was that learning process and being willing to
just absolutely eat it and fall over and over and over that, get
some to the more skillful attributes of have skateboard.
So I guess that's where my brain automatically goes to in like
having environments that encourage that and you're
willing to try something and you're willing to get outside of
what you originally thought was an informant per se and be able
to play out plan the edges. I kind of like that term like be
able to play on the edges. A little bit of your own skill,
but it is good point. It goes to this this topic of
what this video is in. The whole point of playing is
when you're playing with something, you are manipulating
it, you are trying something slightly different, and seeing
what happens. And so, To make a little note
here, part of the reason that we keep pausing, it is so that I
don't think Rafe will have a necessarily hit us with a
copyright or anything, but just for YouTube or whatever, when we
put it up it works better if we take more pauses and comment.
And so I'm looking at this going, we're about halfway
through. And so I'm going to play this
forward a little bit. But this this goes through this
idea though, of like what you're talking about, like this is why
we use this term play. Like we, this is how we learn,
this is how we grow up. We, we all played when we were
kids, and that's this, how we learn about the world.
And so, in order for us to in in my mind, unleash our full
potential, to unleash the full potential of our athletes is we
need to recapture and, I want to say recapture and Re vitalize
basically we need to re-inspire are our players to play?
into play in practice because because practice is often times,
where players check out, I mean, you can remember this This great
or this very memorable, famous football clip where a, I don't
know which football player it was but you know, are we talking
about practice? We talking about the game.
And I'm pretty sure it was in the context of like, why aren't
you trying very hard and practice like, why are you not
taking it seriously? And and this is just the notion
because practice is boring like that.
That's what I think that that player was saying is like this.
I'm not getting better here. And I really, what matters the
most is how I do on the field. So why are we talking about
practice? And so, if we want to re-engage
players in practice, we need to really, we need to re-engage
them with play. So anyways, you have any other
thoughts on that or do we want to try to?
Well, if you more or Hammer, the point home with the, with the
video we in for a little better, because I know they're out there
on the play a little bit. So probably a appropriate time.
Sweet thing that helps you solve complex problems.
He's actually play. Yes, serious.
Play back that up a second. All of this, right?
It's missing all of this other stuff.
A lot of times the thing that helps you solve complex problems
is actually play. Yes, seriously.
As a martial artist, right? You can train, Technics,
Technics Technics Technics for every day, all day you have a
bigger set of techniques and nobody else, but it's the feel
for how to create Solutions in Vivo with another person that
allows you to have success. And that's So, one of the things
that I wanted to start with is play, helps us solve complex
problems. And what is more, at least to me
a complex problem. Then trying to hit the baseball
that's thrown and moving, but you can flip that since you're
pitching coach, you know, what is more complex than trying to
throw a pitch in to see if the hitter in to hit your spot or
trying to get a hitter out? Let me both of those are equally
difficult. Yeah, yeah, harms that.
And that's, that's where I don't think a lot of people go into
the train training, or they go into a cage where they go into a
bullpen and think they're playing at all at this point.
I really, I really, I really think that's that's lost and
it's it's kind of funny that they use in.
We get into their term, any point here.
But series play I think is is a gold term and it's kind of
funny. So just give it.
Give you a little story on this. So I know we talked about a
little bit, but I'll gonna bring my brother a little bit since.
He's a, he's a picture and division, one school right now
and over covid, we had a lot of time, just reconnect and just
literally play around and stuff is that is the definition of it
and we started we basically ran this guy a new portal and just
like the song was moving movement stuff and he was he was
fascinated by stories play around with it.
And one thing he started doing in his catch play is just kind
of running around doing different variations and trying
to throw them all, a bunch of ways but still hey fill his spot
every single time and E.e. saw this thing on Twitter talking
about this, this coach talking about how serious you should be
taking taking every throw taking time in between every throw
trying to hit your spot working through things every single time
and my brother goes I don't think that's right I think
serious I think you should approach it in more serious play
where we're still trying to hit her spot where you're exploring,
your trying different things and he actually used the word
serious but I'm not. I had not heard it before that
and I don't know if you stole from somebody but he Is that and
then when Rafe and John use, there's why I was like that
already connected with me a lot because I think getting it is
it's not just like this term of your enjoyment and we don't
really care. What happened was kind of joking
around like kids do, but we're going to solve complex problems,
but we're going to explore. We're going to allow different
different variations. We're gonna work outside of
techniques. We're going to have a have fun
while we're doing it in a way and but funds not the best.
At the goal at the end of the day.
But yeah that Sears Sears. Plunked actually losses.
I heard it used before. Not in the exact context.
I think it's I think it's a gold term, I think that's it.
No. Absolutely.
And it just as you're talking it made me think of something Bruce
Lee was saying, but there's this other other comment that kind of
came up. I was listening to actually The
Joe Rogan podcast recently but but this doctor was on there
talking about about something that should probably probably is
too too controversial to discuss on here but anyways what he Did
say though that, that struck me. And I know I've heard other
people talk about this is that when multiple people come to the
same conclusion that haven't necessarily been talking to each
other but have been working on kind of the same problem, you
know, you're onto something or, you know, you're onto like the
right thing. And so, regardless of whether or
not he heard it from, you know, the same person or somebody
else. Like it's it's the fact that
when you're engaged in this type of thinking, you kind of come to
the same conclusions. Go, I've seen the same thing
happen. In the, in a sec side of things,
like some of the things that I've been looking into back in
2014, or 2015, or whatever into 2016.
Like, now, people are actually doing those things, like, when
it comes to looking at Javelin, when it comes to developing
pictures and increasing, velocity utilizing kettlebells
for four hitters doing, isometrics overcoming isometrics
to increase or Basically potentiate a hitter to be able
to to swing the bat faster. Like these are things that I'm
seeing people now do and I was and I hadn't seen anybody doing
it when I first come across these things.
Nobody very few people were talking about it and I just knew
as a matter of time before people were just we're going to
get there. I still don't think it's as big
as it should be. But that's neither here nor
there. I do want to play this one clip
from Bruce Lee and I I'm going to probably when I'm going to go
back and edit this in post to just get to the point where he
talks about what he's starting to talk about like a fight, a
good fight. And and so we know I'm going to
play this. And then to kind of hammer this
point home a little bit more. By the way, if you haven't seen
Bruce Lee stuff, you should go watch.
Like all the clips that Bruce Lee is in.
So if you go watch his movies, expecting it to be great acting,
you're going to be sorely. Disappointed only the scenes
that Bruce Lee is in, have good acting in them.
So you know, if you're feeling really bored, just I warned you
ahead of time just skip to all the parts that he is.
It Future. Let's see your talents have gone
beyond the mere physical level. Your skills are now at the point
of spiritual Insight. I have several questions.
What is the highest technique you hope to achieve?
To have no technique? Very good.
But, you know, for copyright reasons we're just gonna we're
just gonna comment on this because one that's that's
fantastic right there. I mean, okay, so you know, just
this whole thing of like the convergence Divergence thing of
the fact that you have different people Saying basically the same
thing. I mean, Verve a key. and I'm
almost positive Rafe has you know is very familiar with Bruce
Lee and I wouldn't be surprised if her Becky is is as well, but
but that didn't come up in their conversation but that is
basically what Rafe was there talking about there at that when
we when we oppose that previous video into what Vicky was
touching on is that you can have all these techniques but that
doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to When you're
actually dealing with a complex unknown problem, that you're
actually going to be able to deploy that technique to solve
your problem. And so, Essentially, here what
Bruce is saying is that the highest technique is to have no
technique, and he's going to kind of elaborate on that more.
But I think coaches should kind of sit with that for a little
bit to try to understand like what is he saying?
I was listening to this book on perception and the difference it
was also talking about the difference between East and
West, like the West has more of an analytical mindset and
everything following from logic. So very, very much from the
Greeks and, you know, Socrates Plato Aristotle Everything kind
of follows this this very linear logical pattern.
And so with that you have things that always follow from a
premise so you can't have two contradictory things.
And so what Bruce just said there is very Eastern where they
very much will say something that seems kind of
contradictory. You know, what's the highest
form of technique is to have no technique.
Well, that doesn't make sense. Like, how do you have?
the best technique equaling, no technique, like these things
don't, don't logically follow from one from another and so,
There is a larger truth I think to to ponder it's designed to
make you think. So I'm going to throw that out
there before we proceed here what are your thoughts when
facing an opponent days? No opponent.
And why is that? Because the word I does not
exist. Out of everything that Bruce
says there, this is the only thing that I have zero idea.
What the heck? He means by that.
So do you have any ideas of what he might be saying there?
No, I mean, it's something maybe I'll revisit and try to think
through a little more but off the rip know.
I mean I could, we could go on and on about, you know, the
highest form of technique is to have no technique.
I wrote a blog post on it for emergent, so if anybody wants
the my thoughts on that, they can go check that out but I'll
tell you all. I got nothing on this one.
So. So, something new.
A good fight, should be like a small play, but played
seriously. Boom, my dad's.
That's what I was thinking of when you're talking about
serious play. Yeah, like and What did he say
there will planets all play a good fight.
Should be like a small play but yeah so a good fight should be
like a small play and that's that's interesting in the sense
that There's something else that Bruce has talked about that.
I very much have incorporated into my hitting philosophy.
Is this notion of We need to have emotional content, and when
I think about a play, when you think about a play, it's very
dramatic, like there. And so within it, there is
emotional content. And so there's, there's a level
of what he is saying, both in the sense of what we've been
talking about that, we need to play with things but also within
that there should be a motion, there's some level of emotion,
some level of aliveness some level of personality.
I think that might be something better for players to connect
with is that when you're playing, you should have some
level of Personality involved. And but yet at the same time
you're taking it seriously. You're not just playing around
to goof around. Yeah, you're playing around to
discover more about the drawer, the world that you inhabit in a
way. But it's more specifically,
you're trying to discover more about yourself within this
environment within this context and how do you relate to the
problem so to speak. And this this kind of leads me
to this other little rant that I have of by seeing things through
an ecological approach. I'd begun to appreciate more
about relationships and that's the difference a to between, I
guess to this, this perception book was talking about east and
west east like it in Eastern cultures.
They think very much more about like how things relate to one
another. So if you were to give a list of
like love hand scarf, Westerners would oftentimes pair scarf and
gloves together and people from Eastern cultures would pair love
and hand together because they're looking more at the
relationship between the two things.
Like. So the glove covers the hand
type of the thing. And so, an ecological approach
kind of takes a similar view of like, it's very much looking at,
like, how do we relate to other things?
And so, I mean, what did we talk about at the very beginning of
this conversation Ocean like building relationships.
How do we relate to one another? And so I think when it comes to
play part of what we're doing when we are playing, is figuring
out how we relate to one another or to other things around us
into the world around us. Yeah, no I was I was even
pondering that. I mean we just put some of the
staff is a simple as we just went out and play Gold Spike
ball and I think that game in itself, the interactions, the
learning the fact that you have to learn your partner's, you
have to basically, without without even talking, you're
interacting with each other's of own affordances, you have to
learn their for dances was as you're working on your own
because I'm not, I'm personally not that great at like hitting
the ball into the net. Like that's probably why we like
I'm not I'm not like a sauce like a Game before, but like
that's not my strong suit, a home away from the net and my
struggle with that. But I know my partner's a lot
better at that and I'm just like, working working alongside
him and like learning him through the game in a way and
learning his capabilities. And like, just just through
play, I learned you learn all about like, his, his own
movement is capabilities. You actually like him pick up a
little bit about personality. I think Ray talks about that in
his Riven by play, Ted talk, a little bit.
Like, as you play, you learn a little bit about yourself where
you should try to go in life and you almost like, you're most
like, figuring out what, what or what half you should go down and
you're learning about yourself and are you risk-taker?
Are you not a risk taker and like, just through play.
It's going to expose those things.
And are you going to be good with organizing things are going
to be good with just going out and trying to possibly like
Grace up? There we go with Ation tips.
Are you going to be good with whatever it may be but just to
play gives you a really really strong in sight.
Look at that. That was happening.
I was just kind of like, we're just playing spikeball.
I mean, maybe these things from be going.
I'm a going through my head's worth playing hard playing game.
But like these other things, like, I'm pondering.
As I'm, as I'm, like, interacting with him and we're
like learning each other, and we're figuring out how to, how
to best perform the task at hand.
But we're, we're communicating in a way that's a nonverbal
communication, as we're picking up each other's affordances.
And that's it. It's fascinating, if you really
kind of look at it at that and that point of view, I guess.
Mmm, Yeah. And Like this just kind of goes
plays into this this notion of embodied cognition how our
movements help us make connections with other things.
And so that's that's where like activity and movement and
lifelong movement and play is so beneficial for our growth.
I mean, because if it was, it's kind of one of those things in
strength and conditioning, there is this big Obsession about
about making the case for, These Primal movements that everybody
has in. This is like, look, a baby, a
baby, you know, has really good rib cage.
You know, the ribs are down in there.
Don't have anterior pelvic tilt, which makes no sense to me or
whatever. Is my kid.
Has massive anterior pelvic tilt in this had it since since he's
been upright walking around and like this is the thing of like,
but everybody was couching their arguments in, like our system is
designed around. Like how, child's our children.
Develop? What?
One of the Hallmarks of how children develop is play.
And so if that if we've been going back to try to do physical
development and training around or rehab around how children
theoretically develop in like crawl and roll and whatever.
Then we actually need to also look at how they actually
acquired all their other skills and that's that's how we acquire
skills and we need to get back to that and serious play.
Is that form. Yeah, I'm going to, let's roll
this for. Let's see if where they where
they land the plane here. That's fundamentally the same
thing in some sense as being a teacher as being a coach because
play is repetition with variation, right?
Yes, the verb, I do tai chi Chuan, right?
And the verb, you don't do tai chi that Chinese workers, you
play it. But when you play music, right?
Your Tai Chi player, and it's the same sort of thing,
seriously is the way we go through these very difficult.
Transformative, experiences therapy is a kind of serious
play martial arts with an improperly are serious.
Played. I would say, I think another
disservice our culture has given us is we've lost that category,
serious play. Play has been assimilated to
Leisure and to fun, we're right with.
And, and some play is entertaining, and I'm not saying
we dispense with them, but we shouldn't reduce all play to
entertaining play. Some play, is the serious play.
That engages fundamental transformative processes for us.
I have Actually, that was a good place to stop.
Like play facilitates like transformation one at.
One of the other things too that I took out of there, like Rafe
talked about play playing has a level of variation or play with
variation in it and this is that rep without rep approach, and I
just think back to like when you create a game when it starts
out, all you're doing is something like I remember being
over at my neighbors and In her garage they had like these golf
balls you know for the car or whatever and they're just kind
of hanging there and we just kind of sat there and I think
maybe at first we just started swatting a back-and-forth and
then it was like, wait I got some like paddles, like ping
pong paddles or whatever. They're just sitting over here.
And so we pick them up and we're just like, going to smack him
back and forth and eventually the ball like ends up wrapped
around the, because it was hanging off of a shelving unit.
And so, it ends up wrapped around the post that it's
attached to. To we're like oh cool that's a
point or whatever. And now this turned into this
game like it starts out with something super mundane that
you're just like oh there's this thing here and I'm just kind of
goofing around with it and then it morphed into something else.
And I think that's so much you know that goes back to what for
Becky was talking about there. At the end of how play ends up
being transformative, was that perv a cure was that Rafe, I
think that's I think it at the end.
Yeah. And so like, to me, this is just
the perfect example of how, like, how things transform over
time into this game. And then, through through games,
we can actually learn more about ourselves.
Yeah, I want to throw this over to you before I keep going and
see what else that you picked out of that little bit there.
Yeah, no, I think what I heard repetition with variation, I
mean I was like I never heard nothing like going that way, but
I mean that's right. That's rough without rep in a
spot on I mean that that is play in a nutshell and that's what we
I guess. Bring it back to the baseball
side is like that's what we try to encourage our guys to do.
A lot of is like our cosplay. Let's, let's have repetition
with variation. Like play around with this and I
my players actually get annoyed in this may be me not
communicating as well, but like I'll give him a concept and I
was like, all right, let's play around with this.
And those are the verbatim words?
I use a lot and like I haven't heard one of my players like
like pretending to coach me up is like Yay, coach coach Baker.
My try this and I just play around with this a little bit.
Yeah I thought that's hilarious and I'm like okay maybe and
maybe I might yeah, cueing it perfectly or maybe I'm not.
Perfectly says that there's limes there.
I heard him talking. Like I'm just so frustrated,
just tells me to play around with this, but I think it goes
into to fold where, like they want.
Just the answer and they've lost serious play.
They've lost the ability to explore in a lot of ways.
Since it's the system itself has been more just like were spewing
out answers were looking for answers and we're just doing
them Outburst like exploring. But I could be a little bit on
me to like, how I'm encouraging the flavors just like just
saying, hey go play around with this but how Am I creating that
environment to actually allow them to explore?
Is it a rich environment to go explore?
Does it Inspire them to go explore?
Is that is another thing that I've been, I've been kind of
thinking a lot on. How do I do that better?
Nothing serious plays it in my own life.
I noticed like my own training. Like, when I engage in serious
play, I've trained a heck of a lot more and I train a lot
harder when I allow myself to engage in it, when I'm looking,
when I'm looking for, maybe even like I'm looking for information
on you. Logical and Dynamics or
constraint, let approach. And I engage myself in series
play with how I think through the ideas and work through some
of the ideas. It's almost like a serious play.
As I work through the information in a way and when I
do that verse, I'm just looking for the answer and just
regurgitating onto a piece of paper.
That's allows me to learn it and interact with it and make it
come more alive. So I think just that alone, that
Sears play and like being able to like the repetition of
variation, I think it's spot-on. And I've been, I've been
pondering that That a lot in my own coaching and just even like
my own life. Like how do I, how do I engage
this plumber? Yeah, it just makes me want to
go back to. I was looking up the whole thing
on like we need in order for us to understand something, we
actually need to have a role in creating it.
Yes. You know and and so, like
there's this notion that we have to self-generate Things in order
to learn more about them to actually have this embodied
experience of the thing and there's this this notion and
maybe we've talked about this before the idea of knowledge of
something versus knowledge about something.
And so Feel like I had another point on that but like theirs.
that to me, is kind of the When you're talking about like this
idea, like I was thinking about this too when you said that
they're kind of were making fun of you about it and I also think
that that's when things start to kind of Click for guys is when
it becomes me mobile. Yeah you know because that's
basically what it is and you're like, okay now it's starting to
stick a little bit. Yeah, you might not fully
understand it yet but now it's enough of a meme that That like
okay, this is a theme of. What's like, how we're going to
begin to interact with this? And so I guess where I go from
there is is maybe trying to pull back the curtain a little bit in
terms of okay, what is play, what am I asking you to do?
When I say play, this is what I mean by it.
And if you don't understand it like let's maybe less dialogue
about it. Like and and it is to your point
of the fact that guys so much want the answer and I was
thinking about this in terms of I've been working with somebody
for with with martial arts and we're trying to take an
ecological approach but yet at the same time, he's struggling
with things because he's like she says that there are certain
things you're not going to find on your own and I think that's
also what the player is is alluding to is when I play
around with this stuff. Like I hit a wall I like there's
whatever the answer is that you're talking about.
I just I'm not able to find it and so but the reason the thing
is is like you do inadvertently, find things when you start.
Playing with other people because they have a different
perspective, they have a different different life
experiences Etc. And so through that, they are
going to discover things that you're not going to discover and
when they discover that and if you're able to see it and or if
they share it, then you have a new way of trying to interact
with that thing that you're playing in a new intention and
all that sort of stuff. And so for me that's that's how
I approach of that. It's like you're going to try to
get You know, Explorer play around and get as far with it as
you can, and then I'll interject.
I'll drop a little nugget in there for you too.
Now play. Now you have something new to
play with its in a way you could.
You know, whether it's an idea or whatever.
It's kind of like this new toy. All right.
I'm dropping a new toy into the environment and now you have
another way that you can interact with this problem that
you're trying to solve or this landscape that you're trying to
interact with. And so that's That's in a way I
guess when I would talk to them I talk to them in terms of like,
all right, think about play, what is play?
What are you doing? When you play?
And if you're not fully aware, then then it's like because, I
also think. Like, you do have to explain
this. This idea of like, okay, when
you played off into you ever do pretend, and when you pretended
to be something or whatever, like what were you mimicking?
And by mimicking like his, here's this notion of
embodiment. We don't understand a thing
until we interact with it and so what do kids do, they mimic
other Other things that they see.
And so, for example, one day my kid is sitting at at the dinner
table and is just going. No, no, it is.
It's got the finger in there, too.
And I'm like, what is he doing? Oh my gosh.
He's mocking me and I'm like, but if it weren't for an
ecological approach, I would have probably been really
offended some like, Dig It by disciplining of my child has not
worked instead. Is just mocking me, which I
guess is fair. Because I mock him all the time,
too. Sometimes when he's throwing a
fit. So I guess it's only fitting,
but What from an ecological approach.
What I then understood it was like oh wait this is actually a
good thing because now he can understand more when I'm doing
this. What I mean?
And like now he can feel like oh dad is mad.
You know and what by doing this like there's more energy and
weight behind it. So this is to me this notion of
Of playing. And when we play when we mimic
other things, we actually get a deeper understanding of that
thing. And this is the weird thing to
like, have you ever tried dancing and, you know, you're
just not getting it and then when you're just like, you know
what? You come back later and somebody
else is dancing and you know, because you sucked at it, you're
like, all right, I'm going to mock you and then when you go to
mock them you like do it. You execute it like almost
perfectly and it's kind of like, what the heck when I get into
this mocking mode. And I free myself.
I loosing myself up to mimic the other person and then I'm
actually able to do the thing. I find that to be a, I don't
know if anybody else has had that experience, but I've
noticed whenever I try to make fun of something, whether it's a
voice or whatever, you actually hit it pretty well and this is
this idea of acting. Yeah so it's very interesting,
this notion of play and how we actually begin to have knowledge
of and better understand a thing.
Bye-bye actually playing which is weird because like for
vehicie is talking about is we've come to believe that play
is just this entertainment some leisurely activity that we do.
That has no seriousness. No actual application.
You know that's what kids do. Real serious professionals don't
play. Yeah.
And it's just this bizarre thing where like the world is getting
turned upside down and the things that we thought were the
way to lead us to the most success.
We're actually the things that we started with.
Yeah exactly. And I mean I think right rape
talks about it again back to that that sock is like bleh.
Bleh will increase your ability to continue through something
and it's not just displaying you had this place is really
important but play will increase motivation and will continue to
allow you to actually You strive for whatever you're going for if
you have a play aspect of it and I think that's I think that's so
important. I look at like baseball players
like I mean you go to a college setting, you're working every
single day and then you go especially like you look at nor
like you're up north. I was just up north and we're
inside for four or five weeks great.
And if you're if you're not interacting with play like
motivation and you're talking leading up the season motivation
can crash quickly if it's just wrapped up.
After rep after rep and you're just like stuck inside this
gymnasium, it looks nothing like the game.
It feels nothing like the game you compete maybe with like some
live settings but not really. That's your only play you really
get. Other than that, it's like brown
black process ground balls. Off a gym floor, like fly balls
in a very confined space. Maybe we go outside, but you're
not going too much fun. You're freezing grind to do it
in the parking lot, or a little bit of turf, that's blown off
and if we can't create environments where there's play
Within that in your ear. Exploring things.
The motivation is going to crash my opinion and you're not going
to you're not going to continue to have players engaged
throughout your practices and how they guess that's a big
question. Like how do you in your
intertwined that with everything and how do you, how do you even
start that? Like, like might have talked
about this, like, even from you starting to warm up like, how do
you, how do you start exploration from the war of?
How do you create player autonomy in the warm up?
The start that right from the get-go because if it's in the
warm-up it's gonna be real easy and intertwined everything for
players to Explorer listen to me.
He's not going to be that much easier, but it's definitely
gonna open up some Pathways for they're going to be able to play
around with other stuff because you started right off the
get-go. And that's going to increase
motivation, increased engagement, increase everything
you're trying to do, and I guess that may even come back to what
we're talking about. Like that player-coach
relationship a little bit. You're you're going to have an
actual interaction. That's not.
Just me telling you what to do, how to do it.
It's just me. Guiding you with in this
landscape that you get to know explore.
And that's where I go back to my brother.
When you talk about series play, like you went back to a school
and you lost it. It was no longer seriously.
It's like I feel like, I'm back at a job and I'm not doing as
well anymore. Like, he, he was tearing it off
when he when he was engaging in serious play was having was
having a lot of I guess fun. But that led to a ton of
motivation to just go out and just move and try things and
throwing different ways and it led him to exactly what he was
missing and then you went back to school and became a lot more.
Strict, and rigid and motivation just went down.
I can't even talking to him. He wasn't talking about
baseball, same way anymore, but think that's, that's almost like
a passion for coaches in a lot of ways, like, how can you, how
can you increase, exploration, and serious, play and fun and it
could be as simple as warm-ups catch play.
That's really how do you increase that and catch play and
I think that's in cage work. Like, how do you do it in cage
work, when maybe you're just doing the first round?
But I mean, there's so many ways to do it.
It's just, how would you continue intertwine?
And that's why I think everybody should kind of ponder and they
think Constance's. There's so many benefits for it.
Yeah, into the way that I was thinking about introducing it
was you start with play? Yeah.
And then you then take that and you go back to whatever.
The actual thing is that you need to execute on and I think
to I think the better way to kind of approach this is to go
back to this idea of seriousness.
So because what we're talking about is serious play because
they're so this has been my experience.
So I did I did Choir in high school and then I tried out for
a scholarship for choir in theater and so because they're
basically the same scholarship. I got the theater one and so
they weren't going to give me the music one, but I went to
choir to showed up for the choir practice for like maybe a few
days and it was just so weird. How much goofing around there
was? Because the choir that I was in
and one in high school was, was decently good and we'd actually
done some of the same songs and I just remember like some of the
things that, you know, are my choir teacher in high school?
You know said, like, hey, this is like, very immature was like,
happening at the, at the Collegiate level, I'm like, If
you guys aren't going to take this seriously, like I am, I'm
out of here. And so that's why I didn't stick
around for that because I just wasn't going to miss school, and
baseball, and all this sort of stuff for a group that wasn't
didn't take pride in what they did.
And so, when we're talking about serious play, it's taking what
you're doing, seriously. But you're exploring, you're
having fun with it. There's a way to, I think that's
the thing that we need to because What I see right now is
like, seriousness and rigid. Yeah.
And then play and like everything's free rein and
goofing around and completely unstructured.
And you have these two extremes and what we're advocating for,
is that middle ground of seriousness with play?
That is purposeful, I think. I think that that might be
another way of talking about this is purposeful play is
different than Entertainment, you know for just pure enjoyment
goofing around and that's that's what I think.
I kind of wanted to talk about. So when we do serious play and
you implement that within practice, what you are then
doing is like, okay. Now we're exploring we're
playing around and then when we come back to our typical
ordinary drill type of a thing, even though I don't like the
word drill, but let's say we come back to our traditional
practice. Activity.
You know, for example, if we're for an outfielder were goofing
around with all the different ways that we can play, you know,
catch a ball off the wall Etc. Whatever.
And then we go back to our standard, you know, Fly ball or
field, the ground ball and throw to a Target.
Like because maybe before you're just kind of like looking around
and seeing how many different ways could I throw it in?
And then now, okay, we're going to do all the standard stuff and
you're going to try to figure out how many times we can still
make a game out of it. How many times can hit the guy
in the chest? you know, with even the basic
stuff and just see how much How many times you can do that and
see if like your performance in that setting improves even after
playing around maybe the first couple ones because you're
trying to recalibrate maybe are not as accurate, you know, maybe
you have a warm-up phase like and Driveline, right?
You don't when you get when you're going to check the ball
as hard as you can. You don't start with the first
one and cut it. Loose at 100% you go at 80 or
whatever and so this idea a notion of recalibrating and then
Then taking it Taking It or taking a very traditional round.
And then seeing if your numbers improve over time or your
performance improves over time because the whole idea of play
and variability, within your practice setting is to actually
improve the consistency of your outcomes or the consistency of
your performance. Yeah, I think that's that's
right. You have you heard the story of
the? I forget who it is, but there's
a shot putter, like one of the best shot Putters in the At the
time, he was one of the best in the world and he essentially
like just intentionally play with every variant of a shotput
throw, he could possibly do. And that became all his training
was just these very weird ways to throw a shot put and just
buried it almost every single wrap and like, you look at some
of the videos with weird pauses, he's I want honest front foot on
some of them he's like stopping the middle and then continuing
he's doing like he's weird world but that's how we Train, and
that's all he did. Literally, I mean, I've defined
it as serious play but he always had the goal for as far as he
could often these different variations.
And I forget, I forget the exact results, but he improved, and he
was already one of the best, like, just him doing that verse
what he typically doing, and I believe he was diagnosed.
I don't want to quote me on that, but I think your stagnant
to that point and then he went with complete variability and
his throw actually increased where the typical person said,
there's no shot of that, like not training or technical model.
It produced the best within his best technical model but what he
did is he buried it up like crazy played around and did all
these weird funky stuff and that led him to his best result yet.
Which I think is, I think it's really cool to hear.
Because I think when you're thinking about distance, you're
thinking technical model because he's not necessary, hitting a
target for say, he's just trying to throw it as far as he can.
And that actually improved it, which I think, I think more
people and get on board with like, throwing in different ways
to hit a Target is going to increase.
You see I think more people get behind that, but not as many
people get behind and I was one that struggled with it, like not
as many people get behind like maybe your email for Harder by
adding more variation to it and not chasing the technical model.
So I think was was really fascinating to kind of kind of
learn about Yeah. I mean, I'm part of the reason
to is Coaches for a long time have talked about like if you
can repeat your mechanics, then that's what's going to allow you
to throw with greater consistency or with greater
accuracy. And so, that's why I think of
her for a lot of coaches. It's, it's really hard for them
to switch because that's the Mantra, the common sense or the
the conventional wisdom was repeatable mechanics lead to a
repeatable result, and we're finding that.
That's when you actually look at.
And you do a full signal analysis now, I even talk.
To Anthony, Brady at a CBA. A few years ago about this and
he's like, for some for like, for example, the Japanese
players their margin of error is a lot smaller but the Dominicans
they have, they have a greater greater more greater
variability, and by margin of error, I mean, like the standard
deviation or the The range at which their mechanics were, was
a lot smaller with the Japanese players, then the the Dominican
players as it as an example, as a comparison.
But when I got out of Anthony was that there were still
variation, within the Japanese players and in Drive Line, and I
believe Kyle is talked about this like, you know, it's a very
small window. That you're playing around with
and he used that as evidence for the fact that there is basically
no variation and that you need to repeat your mechanics.
I don't think he's, I don't know if he still believes that but
that was the way that he was arguing it.
Yeah, because that is, that is through the conventional lens
that he was viewing it but four meetings, a logical perspective
that's evidence for variance. Yeah.
Like look it's not completely repeatable but there is this
window and we need to be really good at being able to get to
that window. From all these different
positions. And so that's that's at least
how I view if from an ecological perspective.
So, to kind of land the plane, do we want to finish this this
video up and wrap it up there, or do you want to land the plane
somewhere in here? Feathering over what the rest of
the video. I think it's I think it's
continues a little more on the serious Paulie side.
So I mean I'm good I'm good either way but I think I think a
natural way to end it would be to just play it out to you know,
why not recognize within parkour.
That it is in the these other practices that have come to
build evolving play. That they there a way to engage
in a serious practice of. So emaciated, you're going to
find some novel. Challenge that you're going to
test yourself at against and then you're going to play with
it by adding Variations by moving things around by
exploring it and ways. Yeah, this world that we exist
in that has become so ordered in certain ways, we need something
that allows us to do that to reimagine play and to bring play
into our life and to engage with it in a serious way. so, I'm
going to. Yeah.
Do you have any extra comments before?
I kind of, Land the plane on one.
One thought or try to Loop it back into something we talked
about before? No, I think that.
I mean, I progressed thumbs up. What we're already kind of tree,
were kind of barking on already. I think that's sums it up fairly
well, and you got a nice little plug.
It was company in there, so maybe I'll check them out.
Call Folklife so young and Kim's house Ali.
Well, that was going to be part of my me Landing the plane.
So Going back to. What I talked about before about
mentorship and why I think that's super important in what
what I've kind of been looking for and I know I've talked to
you about this idea, so I got a chance to go to actually one of
rafe's Retreats. And so when I was at, that
Retreat Rafe was kind of talking about this idea of play and part
part of this in order for us to grow we need others to play with
And so when it comes to working through different ideas and
Concepts especially as coaches, right?
We need other people to play with to play with ideas to see
what can we do with this data, this thought that we have are
these ideas and Concepts, and so this kind of Loops back to this.
I this whole notion of like why trying to put together some form
of a baseball coaches mentorship and I don't want to call it a
program. I really because I'm not like
there's there's the general form of like, all right, you know,
this is a mentorship program that I'm putting on and then
you're all come to me and I Mentor you.
But rather, my thought is, I want to connect other people who
are looking for mentors and to be mentored or who want to
Mentor other people and just create a hub, where people can
connect interact. And in some ways
serendipitously, or maybe we can facilitate war in a more serious
way. Way of like hey I'm you know put
like what year you are like what type of like, I don't know.
You know like do kind of like you know, some way of like
speed, Connecting speed dating type of a thing where people
like get to interact with one another.
See, if like, okay, I'm looking for a mentor or whatever and
just try to find ways to partner.
But I mean, it could be as simple as just facilitating
discussions and just seeing what shakes out from there.
So that's kind of my idea of. We need other people in order to
fully grow to kind of play with someone who will enter in and
play with the ideas and have a conversation with you.
And the hope is that That they do it in good faith and then,
you know, you can still play with somebody else who's coming
in with negative intentions and you can still grow from that.
But that's not, that doesn't create that that safe
uncertainty. Because again, if you want to,
if you want to have to go for why you need that safe.
Environment is because what's on, certain is the ideas of what
what it looks like for them to play out and how all this stuff
works, the uncertain is, how are we going to coach our Athletes
better. How am I going to deal with this
coaching problem that I have? And so this this in a way to
fits well with what this podcast is about, you know, the
Confessions of a baseball coach make these are the struggles
that I think that we are going through is finding other people
to connect with. I mean, given the way that the
world is now and how much stuff is online and all this sort of
stuff in the different ways that we have become increasingly
isolated from one another. I think is great, is technology,
is you know, Garrett for us to be able to, you know, maybe a
Minnesota and you be in Florida and to do this is great but
there's there's still sometimes we don't we are not able to find
what we need where we currently are.
And so the hope is to somewhat facilitate that I still think.
Honestly, in person is the best. And part of the reason in person
is the best is because David Snowden talks about this, we
only can explain an articulate about 10%, maybe, I mean, and I
have no idea how you come up with this number.
But you know, we can only articulate.
Only a portion a small portion of what we know in the rest of
it is. Contextual to the things that we
go through in our day-to-day and sometimes to some of the stuff
we know, like we don't even know.
We know because we just live it. We do it and it isn't unless we,
you know, live and do life with other people that we actually
pick up on the other lessons that people have to teach us.
And so, you know, at the end of the day it's you know what I
would say and encourage, you know, people that you end up
finding as mentors. Even if you are a distance from
one, another do take some time and work something out, such
that you can go spend you know a few days a week.
You know with that other coach and just be a fly on the wall.
Observe participate in what they're doing, you know, this is
I've heard other coaches talk about this and you know for For
whatever we think about clinics like in the summer camps and all
that sort of stuff that has been how other guys have gotten to
see how other other people coach, because those camps.
Usually, you know, are several days to a week long, Etc.
And then you get to kind of see how everybody kind of works when
they, when they work with athletes.
So, that would be my encouragement is to find a way
to bring something that is digital into Into kind of the
real world so to speak and so that you can be face to face.
Yeah, that's good. I think yeah.
Things like the even, like the ABC, a stuff like that and it's
been a big, big resource for me. Just an echo coaches playing
with some of these ideas and actually getting that
face-to-face. Let's go.
I mean that's how we met first, right?
Yeah. So, all right.
Well, that's all we got for today.
I hope hope you all enjoyed that, good Marathon.
Yeah, long good though. But so that'll be the outro
right there, right. Oh yeah.
Whoever survived are lengthy conversation.
We appreciate it. But yeah, I'll ever ever made it
to the end. Actually, for some updates
though, if I ever do put out blog posts or whatever, or have
little short riffs, I don't know if I ever will have a short
riff, but I'll put out some shorter content if especially,
if I write a blog post, I might even read my Twitter post.
I don't know like, Riff on that for a minute, but that probably
won't be a minute either. So, I'm saying, I might not have
a short. I might not have a short riff,
but I'll have a Shortridge. But yeah.
Anyways, so that's that's all we got hope you enjoyed today's
podcast and where can you find people?
Where should you look them up? Also also Baker Baker, do you
want to let anybody know what's going on with you?
Some some new updates or anybody that life updates that we're
trying to share with the listeners?
Yeah, I've recently taken a job as an integration pitching.
Coach with the Mets, which is basically means I'll be able to
not just focus on the pitching side, but a little bit of form
its side and then they, as it grows, it integrates a little
bit more into, as, as you can. Imagine, all the things you need
to integrate within skill, as far as my title is, which is
kind of a cool, a cool position. But, yeah, I'll be starting that
depending on this put out, like in a couple weeks or you can
forget about for Christmas about 2 weeks.
If not then Then I might have our started.
Additionally, Robert. And I both have Buy me a coffee.
Like if you if you like the podcast, you want to make you
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Yeah. So perfectly So, you know, if if
you like somebody more than me but by all means put that in
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And yeah. So if you want to support us,
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thinking, what I'd like to do at the membership stuff is just
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away. As far as content goes, if
people are are interested, so that will be, that might be
coming down the pipe. I might have a mentorship thing
going. We need to do a whole episode on
that. Anyways, that sweet that I put
out that got some traction and then, yeah.
That's what's going on with me. Robert.
What, what's going on with you? Yeah, like Garrett said, I have
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I am doing my fourth year of spray charts at the NAIA loved
ones. Feel free to contact me again.
Robert priority on any of those platforms to learn about Hilton
price. Sweet.
I don't know if I got, we could go on forever but I know Baker.
You got to get to something. So, I ended, I ended our last
podcast, by the way, with whatever.
Like, hey, I wish I probably need a should get some sleep at
some point. I just ended, you know, one of
these times you have to do. I Sopranos ask testing where,
you know, you'll say, hey I got to go.