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Welcome back to Finding the Edge
Podcast. 

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I'm Garrett Boyam joined with 
Robert Fry and AJ Ferrara and 

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today we have on Ben Franks. 
I met Ben back when I was with 

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Emergence and became familiar 
with his work there. 

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I got super excited because you 
were doing gays behavior when I 

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first got to know about you. 
And I was super excited because 

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with baseball gays behavior 
stuff with hitting was was kind 

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of in vogue you can say at that 
at that point in time. 

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And it was really awesome to 
hear your talk at the Sport 

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Movement skill Conference. 
And then you spoke again this 

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year and I got even more excited
because you were talking about 

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cricket and that was even closer
to the sport that we're all very

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much interested in, which is 
baseball. 

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So I wanted to have you on to 
kind of dive more into your 

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presentation and kind of there 
was one specific question to 

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that Sean actually asked you. 
That also got me very intrigued 

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because we want to, I'm very 
much trying to figure out OK, 

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how do these ideas practically 
work with with like in their 

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practical application. 
And so, you know, there's a lot 

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of controversy about, you know, 
information profit processing 

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versus like an ecological 
approach and the different ways 

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that we do practice design and 
all that sort of stuff. 

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And so now that hearing a little
bit about, you know, how you've 

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kind of gone more from a 
researcher to being a little bit

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more closely on the field, I 
kind of want to hear a little 

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bit more about your story. 
So to start off then, you kind 

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of want to give us a little 
introduction of like, who you 

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are, because I bet a lot of 
people in the baseball world are

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not super familiar with who is 
Ben Franks. 

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Yeah, I'm terrible at these. 
So I guess my my job now is a 

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senior lecturer in Applied 
Coaching Sciences at Oxford 

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Brookshire University. 
It's a bit of a made-up job 

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title I I teach some skill 
acquisition stuff and some 

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coaching stuff and some 
performance analysis bits. 

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And then as part of that kind of
my, my role as a researcher 

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within this kind of broader 
ecological space. 

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My PhD specifically is looking 
at skilled intentionality within

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cricket, as you said which is 
just a much longer slightly more

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tedious version of of of 
baseball. 

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But you get like lots of like 
lunch and teas over a period of 

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five days which is quite nice. 
But yeah, and then I've always 

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tried to kind of remain quite 
close to the field and quite 

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close to coaching. 
And now it's always been quite a

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big part of the work I try to do
and and it was within my 

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research, is to make it as real 
and as close to the context as 

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possible and that's kind of kind
of generated my my interest in 

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kind of gaze behaviour research.
Particularly with with the. 

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Quiet eye initially, and now 
more. 

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Broadly in visual search 
behaviours, it's just because. 

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It's such a nice way to look at 
kind of real natural behaviours 

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in the in environments that as 
closely replicate what people do

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in the performance context as 
much as possible. 

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And it all kind of stemmed from 
from my masters, in which I was 

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what I first presented on it. 
The at the the Emergency 

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conference a while back. 
The SMC conference which looked 

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at goalkeepers use of visual 
search behaviours again in 

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various different kind of 
conditions and environments 

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which were like increasingly 
representative to the 

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performance environment. 
And yeah, just like the real 

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kind of messy reality of that 
what I found really interesting 

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and the challenges along the way
of trying to do real world 

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research. 
And yeah, just find some really 

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cool stuff. 
And kind of off the back of that

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publishing that a couple of 
years ago now kind of linked to 

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that broader ecological, 
ecological sense around like the

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fact that there is some 
variability that there is some 

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kind of unique signatures as 
such in how people engage with 

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like the visual information out 
there in the world and how that 

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then impacts. 
Movement. 

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Patterns and all that kind of 
broader stuff. 

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So, so yeah, I'm actually not 
coaching anymore. 

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Up until December, I was very 
much somebody tried to be 

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practical, but I've stepped back
from kind of practical coaching 

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stuff to become a proper 
researcher for a little bit to 

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see if I can actually do some 
research and finish my PhD and 

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actually get some projects off 
the ground rather than trying to

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do 1000 different things. 
I guess for me, I think a good, 

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maybe a good place to start is 
1. 

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And I'm going to put two 
questions together. 

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One, the the question that Sean 
asked you and then I think it 

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ties well with. 
And so the question was was how 

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has your views of ecological 
dynamics changed over time? 

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How has it been honed or I think
honed is the right word? 

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And then how did you like what? 
What is ecological dynamics to 

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you? 
Like I I think you know, how did

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you get into it? 
I think it was the is really the

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question that I want to ask. 
There's how did you get into 

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ecological dynamics? 
And then how has that changed 

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over time, now that you've done 
a Master's and now you're 

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teaching and going for your PhD?
Yeah, so I come across it during

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my undergraduate I was. 
I was quite fortunate to have 

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Will Roberts and Danny Newcomb 
as my 2 lecturers, who obviously

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wrote the the latest edition of 
the Constrained Approach Book 

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with Ian Renshaw and Keith 
David. 

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So I was really fortunate in 
that sense to work really 

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closely with them for the three 
years of my undergraduate. 

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And then will. 
Robert supervised my masters, 

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then Danny employed me at the 
university initially. 

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So yeah, I I was really 
fortunate to work really closely

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with those guys and they 
signposted me towards that stuff

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and I probably then like they're
super applied in Will and Danny.

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Like their ability to apply this
stuff is is phenomenal. 

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And I probably took a more truer
sense to the theory side of 

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things rather than always like 
being super, super practical. 

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I was I was way more interested 
in like the mechanics that 

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underpin direct perception and 
stuff like that. 

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So I kind of ran that way a 
little bit more and and then 

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that's kind of shaped my views 
to I'd I'd try to locate myself 

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more in ecological psychology 
rather than ecological dynamics.

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Just because of I guess the 
obviously the massive huge 

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debates that go along all over 
Twitter and around the 

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ecological approaches and more 
traditional approaches or kind 

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of meshed approaches or 40 
whatever it is and that that 

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kind of space and it there are 
some fair challenges of 

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ecological dynamics. 
So obviously my PhD supervisor 

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currently kind of pushed me more
towards the traditional 

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ecological psychology sort of 
things and like dealing with 

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like real life information kind 
of stuff and the perception of 

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proper information. 
So I probably drifted more 

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towards ecological psychology 
over the last few years away 

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from ecological dynamics, but 
that was more just the progress 

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of my PhD which led me down that
path. 

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And I think ecological dynamics 
is still is still really useful 

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theoretical framework for 
coaches. 

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But there is some, there is some
messiness and there's some bits 

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that have been cherry picked at 
times. 

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And it doesn't always. 
There's there's some 

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contemporary issues which is 
being solved gradually just 

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because it's a very new theory, 
which isn't to discredit the 

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theory. 
I think that's really 

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beneficial, but it's gone 
through that evolution over the 

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last couple of years, but. 
It's. 

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Probably why I've drifted more 
towards kind of eco cycle. 

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Also where I'm a perception 
researcher, it just it fits 

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better for my for a lack of me a
little bit. 

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I'd worry less about the 
movement patterns underpin it, 

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which obviously what ecological 
dynamics has its strengths in 

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from a dynamic systems 
perspective. 

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And Ben, you you talk a little 
bit about it, you know the 

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different some of the 
differences between ecological 

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psychology and ecological 
dynamics. 

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In your experience these past 
few years, what are some things 

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within ecological psychology 
that you've kind of uncovered or

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thought about in a different way
than, say, you know, when you 

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were on the side of ecological 
dynamics? 

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I think that the key one is the 
treatment of that, the treatment

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of information that we perceive.
I think in ecological psychology

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obviously still has it's more 
traditional roots within the 

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mathematics of it all, which 
isn't massively my strength, 

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but. 
I feel like from AS. 

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From a research perspective, I 
do do think it's much more much 

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more powerful in that sense. 
And truly understanding what 

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information is, is specifying 
and which information is lawful 

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to behaviour. 
Whereas ecological dynamics is 

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kind of at times just lumped 
information together as 

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specifying and non specifying 
and doesn't treat always treat 

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the underlying bits of it, but 
more just because it rests on 

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the assumptions of ecological 
psychology. 

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It's not necessarily, but it 
doesn't care about it. 

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It's more just resting on those 
traditional assumptions. 

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Can can you on that point go 
into a little bit more depth on 

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the specifying versus non 
specifying That was something 

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that you had talked about at 
SMSC that personally I saw had a

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lot of carry over to the hitting
side of baseball. 

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So would love for to hear a 
general overview of how you 

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bucket those things, what goes 
into it for the audience. 

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So then if I if I use my PhD. 
As the example. 

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The specifying information will 
be things like the bull flight, 

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things that are lawfully like 
bound to action. 

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So if you think about some of 
the more traditional work like 

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Dave Lee's work in kind of 
steering when driving and 

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looking at things that time to 
contact and the variable of Tao 

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Tao describes that time to 
contact and it's an information.

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Variable, which is kind of 
lawful in the sense that it 

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specifies A relation between the
observer and the environment, so

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we can perceive the rate of 
expansion of an object on the 

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retina. 
Which is like a lawful way of of

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treating that information 
because it leads to specific 

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behaviour. 
So in cricket. 

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The the the flight of the ball 
towards the batter is very much 

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a specifying source of 
information because it is kind 

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of it is leading to an action. 
Whereas a non specifying 

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information source might be 
something like the broader like 

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contextual environment around 
it. 

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It might be the line of the run 
up of the bowler. 

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It might be. 
The slight variations in their 

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action within their hands. 
So in cricket, different kind of

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and similar. 
To baseball, right with 

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different. 
Hand positions, finger positions

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can impart different 
trajectories in the ball. 

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Different race of spin, 
different speed, it can make it 

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swing. 
All of those are more. 

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Non specifying sources of 
information because they're not 

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going to tell us directly. 
How to act? 

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It's not going to necessarily 
allow me to intercept the ball 

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in its path, but it's going to 
get me in a state of kind of 

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action readiness. 
So the way that we're treating 

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that in my PhD is that the use 
of non specifying information 

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allows the individual to to keep
open as many possible 

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affordances as possible. 
It's like puts us into this like

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state of action readiness. 
So it for for. 

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For cricket batters, it brings 
them into the line of the ball, 

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or it might inform. 
The of the. 

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Variation of the ball which can 
be bowled. 

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So cricket ball normally has a 
shinier side and a rougher side,

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just where the bowlers will try 
to protect one side of the ball 

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so that it can be much smoother.
And that's then going to. 

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Create a bit of lateral. 
Movement in the swing of the 

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ball and then slight variations 
in how that's how the seam that 

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runs through the middle. 
Of the ball. 

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Variations in how that seam is 
positioned. 

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Within the within the grip of 
the bowler. 

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Can then kind of. 
Cause the hit to hit. 

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The seam to hit the ground at 
slight different angles and it 

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might start to like to to nip up
towards them or be. 

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A little bit flatter in the 
carry through or swing, more 

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like. 
They're all like non specifying 

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bits of information, those kind 
of grips on the ball. 

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It's just informing the batter 
of a of a state of. 

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Action that might. 
Occur in the future. 

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So it just brings them closer 
into line with potentially not 

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another word expected, but like 
potentially expected outcomes. 

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So as a bat, as a batter. 
I mean, I'm a terrible batter. 

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I've done dreadful. 
This is why I do research in it 

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rather than doing it. 
I know that if I'm if I'm facing

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a bowler at my local Cricket 
Club where the the wickets are 

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normally quite they're not the 
best in the world. 

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They're normally quite soft. 
There's a bit of a hill so I 

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know if I'm facing a bowler 
who's coming down the hill it's 

230
00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,800
always cloudy where I am so it 
can be quite overcast. 

231
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,560
So I know that the likelihood is
is that ball is going to swing 

232
00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:15,760
away from me a little bit and 
I'll try and pick it in the 

233
00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,600
bowlers hand and I'll try and. 
Pick for that their variations 

234
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,920
in in finger positions in the 
same position. 

235
00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,400
I'm pretty poor at it, but I 
should. 

236
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:24,680
Be able to. 
I'm going to start to think that

237
00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,240
this is probably going to swing 
away from me and swing away from

238
00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,800
the stumps. 
So chances are I'm going to be, 

239
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,960
I'm going to be playing lots of 
shots into the kind of into the 

240
00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,480
offside, trying to pick those 
ones out over there. 

241
00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,360
So I might bring myself kind of 
from. 

242
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:41,520
I might shuffle my feet a little
bit more. 

243
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,360
I might move towards the line of
the ball that I think it's going

244
00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:48,800
to be on, but it's not going to 
specifically 'cause me to do the

245
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,800
action of intercepting the ball.
That comes much later on in that

246
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,080
kind of the in the event when 
specifying information becomes 

247
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,640
available through the trajectory
of the ball and like more lawful

248
00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:02,080
variables like time to contact 
come into play. 

249
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,440
So when you say something is non
specifying it can still be 

250
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,840
relevant, but how do you also 
deal with like information that 

251
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:17,720
is not relevant? 
Because even to me, so when you 

252
00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,280
describe Tau, Tau seems to me to
be like a higher order variable,

253
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:23,480
right? 
Would that be a fair? 

254
00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,720
OK. 
And so if that's if that's the 

255
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,120
case, that it's a a higher order
variable, can there be other 

256
00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,360
specifying information that's 
not that's like a lower order, 

257
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:34,600
you know? 
So for example, being able to 

258
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:39,440
pick up the hand position or the
release point to me that is 

259
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,800
specifying but it's not. 
It's not like you're saying like

260
00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,120
it doesn't have a lawful thing 
but if I can't pick up that 

261
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:48,560
point I won't be able to follow 
or I'll have to pick up the the 

262
00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,960
trajectory of the ball further 
down its its flight path and 

263
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,080
that's if it if I am able to to 
to figure that out. 

264
00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,600
And so to me there's there's 
something about you also need to

265
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,880
be attuned and sensitive enough 
to be able to pick up where the 

266
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:10,480
release point is so that you can
actually follow the the the the 

267
00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,200
ball flight. 
And so I guess that's where I'm 

268
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:18,640
kind of interested to know like 
how do these other variables 

269
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,320
that are, how do you delineate 
variables, variables that are 

270
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:25,160
like not even relevant at all. 
You could say crowd noise like 

271
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:31,360
that doesn't have that. 
If you're tuning to that or 

272
00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,680
you're letting that affect you, 
that's that's completely non 

273
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,240
specifying. 
Whereas something like the the 

274
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:43,200
the bowlers run up that has that
has information that's useful 

275
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:45,480
but it's not. 
It doesn't have that lawfulness 

276
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,720
necessarily. 
But even still like I think it, 

277
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,120
it tells you when you going back
to what you're talking about 

278
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,480
before action readiness, right, 
you have to start, it gives you 

279
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,320
information of when to start 
moving to put yourself in a 

280
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:03,080
position to to be able to 
actually respond to that later 

281
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,440
information. 
So I guess is is that what 

282
00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:10,839
you're meaning by action 
readiness is that you are acting

283
00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:14,599
in such a way to prepare 
yourself for the subsequent 

284
00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:18,240
event or things that are about 
to unfold. 

285
00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,200
Yeah, like non specifying 
doesn't necessarily mean like 

286
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:25,960
not informative, it's just not 
lawful. 

287
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,040
So I think that's where 
ecological psychology I think 

288
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,640
treats information more clearly 
in the sense that like 

289
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:38,720
ecological psychology is is the 
study of ecological like 

290
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,800
relations and the study of 
information within that 

291
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:43,800
environment. 
So the the job of ecological 

292
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:48,240
psychology is to find the the 
lawful information variables 

293
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:53,960
which which are specifying of 
action and like we can perceive 

294
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,640
directly so we. 
Perceive things like Tau 

295
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:57,760
directly. 
It's like a. 

296
00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,560
It's just an. 
It's a lawful information 

297
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,000
variable. 
The the Point around crowd. 

298
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:05,880
Noise is an interesting one 
because like. 

299
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:14,040
We don't know that it's not 
informative, so most teams have 

300
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,840
a better home record and they do
have an away record. 

301
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,600
And that's probably something to
do with things like the crowd we

302
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,880
saw in the UK, especially my 
main. 

303
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,880
Sport is football. 
As much as my research is in 

304
00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,080
cricket, like my interest has 
always been football, soccer in 

305
00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:34,480
in this context. 
But during COVID when there was 

306
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:39,400
no crowds like the home and away
kind of records kind of levelled

307
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,640
out a little bit more. 
So the crowd I think might 

308
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,520
actually be part of skilled 
behaviour, the fact that we're 

309
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,640
able to deal with a crowd, 
whatever. 

310
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,400
So my PhD is is essentially 
around that point is how we 

311
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,760
couple the use of like 
specifying and non specifying 

312
00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,840
information because there's so 
much of it and almost like the 

313
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,440
treatment of something like 
cricket. 

314
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,880
Rather than it being like a 
series of discreet events, like 

315
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:10,360
all one ball 2, ball 3, it's 
just one continuous temporal 

316
00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:13,400
event. 
Every ball corresponds to the 

317
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,800
the ball before it and the ball 
that comes after, because those 

318
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,640
events are so nested in our 
relations with the environment. 

319
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,280
So how I'm batting, how I'm 
perceiving, how I've attuned to 

320
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,400
the environment at the start of 
my innings might look very 

321
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,240
different to the middle and to 
the end. 

322
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,480
And compared to when it's 10 in 
the morning to two in the 

323
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,680
afternoon to 4:30 in the late 
afternoon. 

324
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,480
Compared to if we've got, you 
know, runs on the board or we've

325
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,880
lost loads of wickets or the 
weather's changing a little bit 

326
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:47,720
or like all those different 
information sources can start. 

327
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,240
They're non specified, but they 
can still be informative. 

328
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:57,240
They are still like shaping our 
relations with the environment 

329
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,880
and that essentially that state 
of action readiness. 

330
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:05,840
Is it be used or more more 
skilled individuals will use 

331
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:10,000
that non specifying information 
IE like pre ball release 

332
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:14,400
kinematics might use it more 
successfully and it might do a 

333
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,000
better job of bringing them in 
line with the ball like the ball

334
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:21,840
moves way too fast for us to 
rely solely on. 

335
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:24,640
That trajectory information 
alone. 

336
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,200
So we have to do something which
brings us in line or closer in 

337
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,760
line to to in in that batting 
performance. 

338
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,240
So as you'll see most like 
individuals will start 

339
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,880
triggering that movement, 
particularly goalkeepers. 

340
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,160
In my Masters work the 
goalkeepers are often moving 

341
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:45,720
before the ball has been struck,
so obviously that kind of non 

342
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,040
specifying information is 
causing some behaviours to 

343
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,280
change. 
It's maybe not the most informed

344
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,640
decision because it's not 
relying necessarily on like ball

345
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,240
trajectory information, but it's
but it's still something which 

346
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:03,280
is allowing us to anticipate the
future state of that event. 

347
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:08,200
So with batting in particular 
like that, anticipation come 

348
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,680
from things like the run up 
information we know about the 

349
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,320
bowler, we might know that the 
bowler likes to bowl certain 

350
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,720
variations at certain times in 
the innings and that kind of 

351
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:18,040
stuff. 
And it's just brings me into 

352
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,400
this state of action readiness, 
which is where I'm just trying 

353
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,040
to keep the landscape of 
performances as open as possible

354
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,840
or as kind of solicited as 
possible towards the kind of 

355
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:29,600
expected outcome of those 
events. 

356
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:34,200
Just helping the batter keep in 
line with future events and that

357
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:40,240
almost that kind of like 
allowing them to access more 

358
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,120
specifying information sources 
through the use of non 

359
00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:46,600
specifying information obviously
by bringing them into that state

360
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,680
of action readiness so they're 
more able to then make use of 

361
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,320
the affordances further down the
line of that event. 

362
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:58,560
Are there many other specifying 
sources of information other 

363
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:03,960
than you could say like towel? 
Yeah there's there's matter into

364
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,720
them all over the shop there is.
I'm going to get the names from 

365
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,440
of these as well. 
There's there's a lot done in 

366
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,440
flyable catching. 
Particularly by Claire Michaels 

367
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:23,720
in like the 80s, I think around 
like perceiving like vertical 

368
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,760
optical acceleration or 
something like that. 

369
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:27,840
That's not exact, that's not the
exact term. 

370
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,080
I'm sure there there are other 
variables, but I guess the the 

371
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,520
difficulty in these variables is
in accessing them as well as 

372
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,000
like the maths behind them is is
crazy half the time. 

373
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,280
There was some. 
Some work a while, not too, but 

374
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,440
ten years ago I think around 
affordance based control and how

375
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,880
we make use of affordances in 
line with kind of knowledge of 

376
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,280
our own action capabilities and 
our own effectivities and how 

377
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,320
kind of lawful information can 
be used in respect to those 

378
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,960
effectivities. 
And so there's bits and pieces 

379
00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:01,880
out there, but that I guess 
that's more specifically the 

380
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,160
role of ecological psychology is
around understanding those 

381
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,080
information variables compared 
to ecological dynamics, which I 

382
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:13,560
guess is more geared towards 
certainly more towards sport 

383
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,440
based contexts in particular. 
And it's probably more an 

384
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,880
applied theoretical framework to
understand those interactions in

385
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:25,400
the sporting context, so 
probably less less worried. 

386
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,680
About the different information 
variables used and more worried 

387
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,600
about. 
Kind of the the broader context 

388
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:36,200
around affordance use in sport. 
And you talked a little bit 

389
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:41,080
about you know the non 
specificity of crowd control and

390
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,760
whatnot. 
So I want to go to a football 

391
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:49,160
example and talk about how for 
Liverpool's home games they the 

392
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,800
crowd does you'll never walk 
alone to sing. 

393
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:57,480
And so and I know in in other 
sports like in baseball in the 

394
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:02,680
States, the common thing that 
coaches will tell minor leaguers

395
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:07,000
is never looked up because the 
crowd size is never above, you 

396
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,920
know two decks high at most and 
then when you look up you know 

397
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,800
the the bright light. 
So in terms of, you know, 

398
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:20,440
ecological psychology, how can 
that something like that where 

399
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,760
maybe there is a notorious home 
field advantage or there's a 

400
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:28,760
notorious place you're going to 
that's well known? 

401
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,280
How does that affect? 
You know someone's, you know, 

402
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,160
performance in terms of 
ecological psychology. 

403
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,600
Yeah, I'm not sure it's 
necessarily even an ecological 

404
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,400
psychology perspective on it. 
It's just kind of the the more 

405
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,480
traditional stuff on arousal and
kind of state anxiety and stuff 

406
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:51,640
and the biological effects that 
that can be had on the performer

407
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:52,880
as well. 
And the kind of increase in 

408
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,840
heart rate and like that stuff 
is affecting that broader 

409
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,120
complex system that humans are 
and kind of that's going to 

410
00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:03,600
change the relations we have 
with the environment and it I 

411
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,280
don't ultimately I don't know 
the exact relations that crowd's

412
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,640
going to change on how we 
perceive stuff. 

413
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:14,400
There's there's likely I think a
broad and neurobiological 

414
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,840
response we have to to stresses 
and that's going to affect how 

415
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,760
we then pick up information. 
I think as a fair hypothesis we 

416
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,880
can lean on, which I think 
underpins kind of ecological 

417
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,520
psychology and particularly the 
biological relations that that 

418
00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:34,120
inform our interactions and kind
of a a broader complex system 

419
00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:37,200
that we are and are linked. 
To as well. 

420
00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:42,800
I wanted to loop back just a 
little bit. 

421
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:47,400
Can you kind of explain what is 
direct perception you know 

422
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,080
because you you brought up you 
know that we can't necessarily 

423
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,240
maybe track the ball the whole 
way if it's going super fast 

424
00:25:54,240 --> 00:26:00,200
because it's moving faster than 
our eyes can can, can follow and

425
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,960
then you know how does direct 
perception differ or maybe how 

426
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:11,280
does it does it can it be 
coincided with this you know 

427
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,800
information processing. 
You know how long it takes, you 

428
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,200
know the information to go 
travel from the eye to the brain

429
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,040
and then from the brain to the 
spinal cord. 

430
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,360
Like how how do you view this 
stuff? 

431
00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:26,040
And then also like how is how 
does direct perception play into

432
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,680
all this. 
So direct perceptions like I'd 

433
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,280
probably say is like the strict 
starting point of any kind of 

434
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,120
ecological approach to 
perception and that kind of 

435
00:26:36,120 --> 00:26:40,200
stems from Gibson's really early
work and direct perception is is

436
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,880
literally the how we perceive 
the environment directly. 

437
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:49,080
There's no need for any kind of 
mediating or kind of broader 

438
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,640
mental gymnastics or kind of 
inferential processes within the

439
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,560
brain to kind of process that 
sense that sensory data into 

440
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,880
something more meaningful. 
Gibson's whole argument was that

441
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:03,200
the world out there is 
meaningful in itself. 

442
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,320
Like the the the environment 
that we're surrounded by, like 

443
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:11,840
has meaning within it. 
So like as we are walking in a 

444
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,520
straight line down a path, 
information kind of like the 

445
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,640
visual scene rushes past us. 
And that perception of optic 

446
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:24,520
flow is what specifies motion 
and that is supposedly or is 

447
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,920
argued is a direct information 
variable which we pick up on. 

448
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:32,520
So we are surrounded by this 
optic array, just that light 

449
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,960
reflecting off of all number of 
surfaces and that can specify 

450
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:40,200
kind of depth and occluded 
surfaces. 

451
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,760
So as I'm sat here now I've got 
a lamp on in the corner and like

452
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,680
that projects that light into 
the room and it creates a very 

453
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,520
littered kind of optic array. 
And I've got like a chair there 

454
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,360
and the end of the sofa there, 
the door there. 

455
00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:56,680
And I can now pick up all the 
different objects or bits of 

456
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,960
furniture within the room. 
That's the optic array which I'm

457
00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:03,040
trying to perceive. 
And as I move I kind of the 

458
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,040
visual scene will will always 
change and it's the relation I 

459
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,240
have for that environment which 
is important the direct 

460
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,440
perception therefore there 
specifies that the information 

461
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:17,440
out there which is causing me to
act, we are kind of innately 

462
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,520
sensitive to in the sense that 
it's it is lawfully specifying 

463
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,480
of action. 
So my behaviour is controlled by

464
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,240
the perception of kind of very 
real material information 

465
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:33,280
sources which I attune to or 
calibrate to which informs our 

466
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,360
perception. 
So there was there was loads of 

467
00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:39,440
work done on looming objects in 
babies, and how babies can 

468
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,840
respond to how objects loom 
towards them. 

469
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:44,760
There's some wicked work for 
him. 

470
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:49,040
I think it's like 1981 from I. 
Think. 

471
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,760
It was Bootsma and Savilsberg 
and someone else. 

472
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,080
I can't remember their life for 
me, but they they literally 

473
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,200
examined kind of whether we are 
sensitive to objects kind of 

474
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,400
looming towards us, kind of 
growing and like the rate of 

475
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,320
expansion. 
And they got like a mechanical 

476
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,960
arm and a lot of balls which 
flew towards the face of the the

477
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:12,160
perceiver and they had to kind 
of kind of grabbed the ball as 

478
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,520
it came towards them on this 
mechanical arm. 

479
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,200
And they kind of measured like 
the grip aperture, so like the 

480
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,760
held of the aperture in the hand
and they sent one ball down 

481
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,800
which was like a large size ball
and it stayed large the whole 

482
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,400
time. 
They did one with a smaller ball

483
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,280
which stayed small the whole 
time and they did one with with 

484
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,040
a ball that deflated as it went 
down to see whether we are 

485
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,360
actually sensitive to the rate 
of change in an object relative 

486
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:36,800
to kind of as it's moving 
towards us. 

487
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,800
So we can actually perceive rate
of expansion and it kind of was 

488
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,000
evidence that like the aperture,
the aperture in the hand changed

489
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,840
relative to the deflating ball 
as it came towards them. 

490
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:51,120
So they argue that we are 
sensitive to that kind of that 

491
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,440
information source. 
It's a lawful lawfully 

492
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:58,240
specifying source of information
which is a has a consequence of 

493
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,400
of action. 
Whereas more traditional 

494
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,480
theories in psychology lean 
really heavily on 

495
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,680
representation, so like more 
forms of indirect perception. 

496
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,800
The world is just like a 
collection of lights which kind 

497
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:19,560
of comes into the retina and 
it's just meaningless sense data

498
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,160
which we need to make sense of. 
And there has to be some process

499
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,760
in the brain which knits and 
stitches that picture together 

500
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,480
to make it therefore meaningful 
for the person perceiving it. 

501
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:34,840
And I think a lot of it stems 
from like the fact that the the,

502
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:40,000
the reflection within the eye of
light comes backwards and 

503
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,560
therefore like the brain has to 
do something to like flip the 

504
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,920
image as well and the brain has 
to do something to stop it being

505
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,760
a collection of still images 
like a like an old school like 

506
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,840
movie tape. 
So there has to be a process in 

507
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,240
the brain which is doing that 
stuff. 

508
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,320
And that's where information 
processing kind of and that 

509
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,840
stemmed from. 
And now more towards like active

510
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:06,120
inference and more contemporary 
representational theories have 

511
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,520
come from in the sense that I 
think most people have like 

512
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:11,760
disregarded information 
processing. 

513
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,880
Now I think even kind of most 
hardline cognitivists are now 

514
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,760
pre accepting that that's that's
not really a thing and it's 

515
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,880
we're more towards kind of 
active inference and predictive 

516
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,680
processing and mesh control or 
kind of the frisht and brigade 

517
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:30,000
about the four E kind of stuff. 
But the difference is still 

518
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,680
based around the use of 
representations within 

519
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,360
cognition, perception and 
action. 

520
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,720
And ecological psychology is 
still really hard line with the 

521
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,440
fact that no representation is 
needed because we are directly 

522
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,080
sensitive to information out 
there. 

523
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,640
Whereas there is still that kind
of band of cognitivists who are 

524
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,360
still committed to the fact that
perception can't be direct, 

525
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,320
there has to be a mediating 
factor within the brain 

526
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:59,600
somewhere. 
So I think this area types 

527
00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:04,880
nicely that I forgot Part 2 of 
the question. 

528
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:07,800
It's all right. 
I mean, it happens. 

529
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,720
It's also late in my my brain 
works like that as well. 

530
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,960
I I think because part of part 
of why I want to get on this 

531
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,280
direct perception element and 
trying to understand the 

532
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,760
mechanics a little bit because I
think that's where a lot of 

533
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,320
people struggle is like, OK, you
say this word, but how does it 

534
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,560
actually work? 
How does it guide action? 

535
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,440
Because I'm going to slightly 
veer off here. 

536
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:35,160
So somebody had tweeted this out
and I'm kind of, I kind of want 

537
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,680
to get your thoughts on it and 
how it relates to either cricket

538
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,240
or baseball because they're 
talking about this for for 

539
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,920
baseball. 
They quoted somebody perception 

540
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,480
is biased by things you have 
seen before. 

541
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,160
Richard Mass Massland. 
To me that makes sense. 

542
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:56,000
But how this person interpreted 
it, they they followed up with 

543
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,280
saying calibrate internal pitch 
models of your hitters. 

544
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:05,280
And so I think ecologically if 
we go we're not, we're not. 

545
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,880
Yes our perception is biased by 
the things that we have seen 

546
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,960
before. 
I think that that that I think I

547
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:16,520
can accept that, but I don't 
know it's about like calibrating

548
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:22,000
my internal pitch model. 
So I guess how how would you, 

549
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,280
how would you, like understand 
that or what would you, how 

550
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:32,480
would you respond to a coach who
who wants to increase a who 

551
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,080
thinks that perception is about 
updating internal models and 

552
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,040
representations of the world. 
You know, because it it very 

553
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,240
much feels like we're looking at
the same data set, but we're 

554
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:46,120
interpreting it in some ways, 
two different, slightly two 

555
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,600
different ways, but like you 
know, you end up in very 

556
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,360
divergent ways of what you end 
up doing in training, if that's 

557
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,360
what you're trying to do. 
So I'm kind of curious your your

558
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,200
thoughts on how you, how you'd 
respond to that. 

559
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:03,160
I mean the the, the new nihilist
me, it'd be like, I just just 

560
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,040
let him crack on thinking like 
that. 

561
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,400
Because this stuff's like 
politics, right? 

562
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:12,040
Some people you know, No one 
changes political party 

563
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,080
particularly easily. 
Like. 

564
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:15,600
And it's similar with this 
stuff. 

565
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,760
It's so deeply rooted in kind of
how we view the world and like 

566
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:23,880
our internal epistemologies and 
ontologies that it feels like 

567
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,760
there's there's like a an 
attraction to a particular way 

568
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,360
of viewing the world and that 
aligns with ecological or or 

569
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,280
cognitivist stuff. 
That's the. 

570
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:38,120
But to give an actual answer, 
there's a little bit that's just

571
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,000
so rooted in language. 
So they're using the the, the 

572
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:45,639
thought of a generative model of
that pitch which we're trying to

573
00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:51,480
build and therefore the athlete 
can the stronger that model is, 

574
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,639
the better able that model is to
be able to be adapted to 

575
00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:56,880
different circumstances within 
the pitch. 

576
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,200
Like it, it makes like logically
kind of it, it sounds good. 

577
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,960
I guess the ecological version 
of that would be around 

578
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,720
attunement to the information 
which is available. 

579
00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:12,600
So one of the issues we have 
issues that's pretty wrong word.

580
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:17,200
But in cricket in particular, 
there's a use of lots of bowling

581
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,880
machines. 
So kind of big mechanical 

582
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:21,720
structures. 
You put the balls in the top, 

583
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,160
set the set the speed and set 
the direction. 

584
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,080
And I think some of them you can
impart swing and spin on it as 

585
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:35,320
well and you fire balls down to 
the batter and and there is some

586
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,680
like very tangible stuff there, 
right. 

587
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,600
You're perceiving an object in 
flight like it's just pretty 

588
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,720
similar to batting in a game. 
But this is where kind of that 

589
00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:49,600
broader use of I think and 
particularly in my PhD the the 

590
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:54,080
marriage of sensory and non 
sensory information, the the the

591
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,960
marriage of kind of non 
specifying with specifying 

592
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,680
information. 
I think that perception is 

593
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:04,080
naturally using all of those 
forms of information every day. 

594
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,280
Like we're walking around the 
the the general world and we're 

595
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,360
always kind of using those bits 
of information. 

596
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,760
It's always part of our kind of 
visual and cognitive processes. 

597
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,040
So within cricket we use lots of
bowling machines that have very 

598
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,240
little additional information 
beyond the trajectory of the 

599
00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:22,800
ball. 
And and you you could argue the 

600
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,000
trajectory of the ball isn't 
quite right as well because you 

601
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,600
don't get that same kind of 
natural ball path that you get 

602
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,000
from bowlers and that kind of 
stuff. 

603
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,880
But, and the way that bowling 
machines are used is that you'll

604
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:38,240
give lots of consistent feeds at
particular, you know, particular

605
00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:40,720
length on a particular line and 
you'll just kind of groove the 

606
00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:44,240
technique of the batter and 
you'll help them get really 

607
00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:46,440
affected at making that shot, 
essentially to create a 

608
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,880
generative model in the brain. 
Whereas the argument on the flip

609
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,840
side of that or an ecological 
approach would be you're you're 

610
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:57,480
just exposing them to kind of 
increasing levels of sensitivity

611
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,000
to that information. 
And you're allowing them to 

612
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,280
explore the affordance landscape
if you want to use that term or 

613
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,240
just explore the kind of the 
visual information that's 

614
00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:10,520
available to them and to be able
to pick up what is specified to 

615
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,320
inform their actions. 
So if we face the bowling 

616
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,840
machine really often, we get 
quite good at facing the bowling

617
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,360
machine because we've learnt the
dynamics of that task. 

618
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,600
I we've learnt the information 
layout, the information 

619
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,000
structure. 
We've kind of become very 

620
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,040
sensitive to that particular 
optic array. 

621
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,360
Like I'm quite good against the 
bowling machine, I'm I'm a 

622
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,000
pretty good batter. 
If you set it up on a pretty 

623
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,080
consistent length and line, I 
can get myself in a good bit of 

624
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:38,480
flow, whereas an ecological 
version that would be you just 

625
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,000
learn task dynamics. 
We get very good at tasks that 

626
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,480
we learn, and transfer between 
tasks is actually quite 

627
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,120
difficult because we we learn 
the information layout of 

628
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,520
particular settings. 
So take away the bowling 

629
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,120
machine. 
You've got Nat. 

630
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,680
You're facing natural bowlers 
with all the other bits of 

631
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:58,920
information around it, which is 
essentially one of the PhD 

632
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,880
studies I'm doing, is facing 
bowlers just going through 

633
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,520
random deliveries, just 
whatever, bowlers with a more 

634
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:12,680
pattern sequence and bowlers 
with a set field, a context, a 

635
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,520
score, a scenario, and like 
increasing the levels of other 

636
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,360
information that might sit 
around that. 

637
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:25,400
And that for me is what's what 
we should be. 

638
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,440
How we should be supporting 
athletes is to make them as 

639
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,040
effective as possible as picking
out of what is useful or 

640
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,720
selecting the information which 
is most soliciting and kind of 

641
00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:39,560
is going to allow them to 
exploit the affordances that are

642
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,040
available within the 
environment. 

643
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,320
And I think that's what we've 
got to get athletes to, is that 

644
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,840
they've got to make really 
complex decisions under a lot of

645
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,520
pressure with a load of 
different bits of information 

646
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:57,760
all over the place. 
Like the actual event of the 

647
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:02,720
delivery in baseball and cricket
is such a minute amount of time.

648
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,600
There's got to be more to it 
around that which is supporting 

649
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,240
action. 
Like how how much are we 

650
00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:11,920
exposing athletes to sequences 
in delivery? 

651
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:13,680
How much are we exposing them 
to? 

652
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,120
Like. 
So in in cricket, you receive an

653
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,760
over, so you receive 6 balls 
from the same bowler. 

654
00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:24,560
How often are we like actually 
exposing our batters to a bowler

655
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,720
bowling 6 deliveries? 
Are we allowing them to kind of 

656
00:39:26,720 --> 00:39:29,960
explore that, that bowler in a 
sequence and pick up on the bits

657
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,200
of information which might 
support their action or might 

658
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,760
inform different parts? 
I've. 

659
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,880
Veered off quite significantly I
think, but I have to bring it 

660
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:43,640
back around to kind of the 
building of generative models is

661
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:47,280
that so? 
So we teach a module, Oxford 

662
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:51,480
bricks where I we used a 
coaching module around kind of 

663
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,680
creating practice designs and we
joint deliver it. 

664
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,280
So every week there's a broad 
theme and I deliver it from like

665
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,280
an ecological angle and the 
other lecturer delivers it from 

666
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,240
a more cognitive angle angle, 
particularly around predictive 

667
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:08,600
predictive processing. 
So we have our different use of 

668
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,600
terms things like he's saying 
our we're building generative 

669
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,840
models here. 
I'm saying well actually just 

670
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,560
we're supporting them and you 
know exploiting a landscape of 

671
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,200
affordances and attuning to XY 
and Z and we explain all these 

672
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,000
different things from our two 
different perspectives. 

673
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,720
But reality of is it most of our
coaching looks quite similar. 

674
00:40:24,720 --> 00:40:28,520
We both use, you know. 
Pretty similar looking 

675
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,680
environments. 
We'd like to keep things to be 

676
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,280
relatively representative of the
performance environment. 

677
00:40:33,720 --> 00:40:37,760
We're not a big fan of blocked, 
repetitive, repetitive practice.

678
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,560
You know, we must think athletes
making decisions is a pretty 

679
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,960
good thing. 
Our coaching was really similar.

680
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,800
Our views of the world and our 
theoretical frameworks are very,

681
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,040
very different. 
But ultimately it's it gets us 

682
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,080
to the the same kind of place on
the pitch itself. 

683
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,400
For. 
Different reasons, and they're 

684
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,800
always going to be bits of 
Revere off away from each other 

685
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,160
practically as well. 
But it's got me to this kind of 

686
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,280
point, which is why I don't 
really do Twitter anymore of 

687
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:16,400
like, do we need to worry that 
much about understanding the the

688
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,800
mechanics and the intricacies of
different theoretical 

689
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:24,760
perspectives as coaches and 
instead like just sharing some 

690
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,360
of the good principles and good 
practices that are available to 

691
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,080
us in Within Coaching? 
I don't know what the answer is 

692
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:37,280
to that, but I think it's worth 
exploring because I have spent 

693
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:44,080
the past ultimately 10 years 
studying this stuff in a fair 

694
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,000
amount of depth and as part of 
my job. 

695
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,760
And even I've like barely 
scratched the surface and I've 

696
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:52,400
probably got a pretty good grasp
on it. 

697
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,400
But I don't know everything and 
I don't know all the different 

698
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,480
bits. 
And you know, my mathematics 

699
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,680
isn't that strong and my theory 
isn't the best in the world. 

700
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,360
And like, so like I've spent all
this time studying it and I 

701
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,240
don't really know it. 
So is there any, like any coach,

702
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:12,000
kind of whose job is to be a 
coach, How much, how much of 

703
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,520
this are they going to 
understand as well? 

704
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:15,680
That's the kind of debate I've 
wrestled with lately. 

705
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:20,240
So as long as we can share in 
the good parts of us put like 

706
00:42:20,240 --> 00:42:23,440
respective theories and like 
we're making informed decisions 

707
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,800
because we've kind of got grasp 
with some stuff maybe that's 

708
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,120
quite effective. 
I don't know I'm kind of 

709
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,240
rambling a little bit but the 
thought got in my head. 

710
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:37,000
No, I mean because the the 
longer that I've been in this I 

711
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,280
guess you could say and then 
also practically trying to apply

712
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,120
it with other coaches that don't
aren't familiar with these 

713
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:46,000
concepts. 
The the the concept I play with 

714
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,920
is this this idea of dexterity 
and adaptability. 

715
00:42:49,240 --> 00:42:51,640
So if I understand and too like 
mastery if you understand a 

716
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,560
concept well enough you should 
be able to apply it across any 

717
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:56,400
different context that you find 
yourself in. 

718
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,920
And to me if I'm just going from
an ecological dynamics 

719
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:02,880
perspective, well you know if I 
understand constraints and the 

720
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,640
constraint LED approach and I 
understand how to manipulate 

721
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:07,760
constraints it doesn't matter 
the situation. 

722
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,320
If I can understand the problem 
that we're trying to solve, then

723
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,280
I can apply an ecological 
approach. 

724
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:17,120
Even if the other person is 
applying, you know, a blocked 

725
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:22,760
cognitiveness approach, I can 
still help athletes regardless 

726
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:24,360
or just figure out how to 
navigate. 

727
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,720
And so to me, you know, to your 
point, you know, I'm, I'm 

728
00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:31,000
getting that way too of like, 
yeah, a lot of times the the 

729
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,320
environments that we put are 
putting our athletes in are very

730
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,520
similar. 
But at times though, because I 

731
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,160
think if we're all doing the 
same environments, what is 

732
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,640
giving us an edge? 
Because I do think that's you 

733
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:44,760
know trying to understand from 
an athletic performance 

734
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,880
standpoint what is giving us an 
edge over our opponents or what 

735
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,360
is going to help us better 
attuned to what our athletes 

736
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,240
need. 
And I think that's where the 

737
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,400
where this stuff like really 
matters of like why why should 

738
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:02,640
you care is trying to figure out
like how do we get more 

739
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:08,000
performance out of our athletes 
and and so that's at least my 

740
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,120
initial thought of of kind of 
what you're talking about is 

741
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:17,160
like OK yes there's there is 
that whole element of people are

742
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,040
not going to understand it feels
very religious. 

743
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,960
But at the same point I do think
if we wrestle with the questions

744
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,000
not necessarily trying to 
persuade the other person but be

745
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,960
able to answer it because a lot 
of times we we we just take it 

746
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:30,800
for granted. 
You know like these ideas and 

747
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,400
these concepts like of course 
it's direct perception but like 

748
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:39,080
the the person who is resistant 
they help us understand our 

749
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,680
position deeper to be able to 
articulate it better. 

750
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,800
And so at least for me that's 
that's kind of I've approached 

751
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,400
it because it similarly to you 
I've I've been thinking about 

752
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:51,280
like you know interactions on on
social media of well why am I 

753
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:55,360
why am I posting this you know 
why am I specifically trying to 

754
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,280
win an argument. 
But I also think there's 

755
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:02,440
something to of like being able 
to articulate better your 

756
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,720
position. 
So I, you know, without 

757
00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:07,880
necessarily crapping on 
everybody else, like I think 

758
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,200
that's a an important thing 
because then that like it just 

759
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:16,120
doesn't become super productive.
But there is, there's another 

760
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:20,960
thing that I wanted to kind of 
loop back into of you're talking

761
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:26,000
about pitching machines and 
that's that's ubiquitous in 

762
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,120
baseball as well. 
One person that I've been 

763
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,560
interacting with on social media
who I appreciated has helped me 

764
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,120
understand some things the way 
that he views it and he is. 

765
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,200
He wrote an article on Tao and 
all this sort of stuff, but he 

766
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,840
views it very much. 
In this I want to say more 

767
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:46,560
mechanical sense of like it's 
all just about time. 

768
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:49,400
Time to contact is the only 
thing that matters. 

769
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:55,000
And I'm like, but it it doesn't 
like because for him he's like, 

770
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,240
well, I just need to use a 
pitching machine because Tao is 

771
00:45:58,240 --> 00:46:01,920
the only thing that matters. 
So what's the difference? 

772
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,600
It's it's all the same. 
And in my head I'm like, I don't

773
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,320
have a good response because 
even part of what you're just 

774
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,200
saying, you know, like, well, if
Tao is the specifying 

775
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:12,400
information in the ball, is the 
specifying information in the 

776
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:16,960
ball flight, why, why wouldn't I
just use a pitching machine? 

777
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:21,840
So I guess for what would you 
say to the person who sees it 

778
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,520
that way, I to me it makes sense
why you would see it that way. 

779
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,680
All the things that we've been 
saying so far mostly sound like 

780
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,200
it affirms that, but what is the
nuance that we're missing here? 

781
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,240
I think it's the assumption that
the event starts when the ball 

782
00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:38,800
is released and almost the 
ignorance to the fact that there

783
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,440
is 20 seconds prior to ball 
release where loads of stuff is 

784
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,680
happening, right even like down 
to the point of like my 

785
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:48,400
knowledge of base was pretty 
limited, right? 

786
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:54,520
But the fact of someone trying 
to steal a base and that 

787
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:58,280
delaying the whole process of 
the the the pitch coming in like

788
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,480
that, that's all part of it. 
Like that's all part. 

789
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,360
This is one of the things that 
really frustrated me within 

790
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,080
skill acquisition. 
Research is the just the 

791
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:11,320
treatment of all these different
events as isolated things and 

792
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,360
that are taken away. 
The fact that they're all so 

793
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:20,560
connected to each other. 
It's a logical argument that you

794
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:25,080
know if all of it matters is 
Tau, then yes use pitching 

795
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:28,280
machines. 
But then we're asking people to 

796
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:35,480
perceive from complete static 
like nothingness to then all of 

797
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:39,280
a sudden a ball flies us. 
So then you bring the fact that 

798
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:43,560
well, reaction time isn't very 
much a thing because you know, 

799
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,760
smooth pursue tracking doesn't 
happen as easily as that. 

800
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:51,720
So the first little, the first 
few milliseconds are redundant 

801
00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:54,640
because we just don't see the 
ball fire out of the hole that 

802
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,600
quickly. 
So we've now lost part of the 

803
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:03,000
event to to to nothing and then 
with the individuals, the batter

804
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:07,280
is moving late. 
There was Ross Pinder's work in 

805
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:13,640
2000 and nine 2010 that looks at
kind of movement kinematics when

806
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:15,800
facing a bowler machine versus a
live bowler. 

807
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:21,560
And we did something similar 
with visual search research in a

808
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,000
project at Oxford Bricks. 
But essentially like the 

809
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:28,880
movement kinematics occur much 
later the the bat lift is much 

810
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:35,880
less when facing a bowler 
machine because you're the whole

811
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:39,080
response to the event itself 
comes much later. 

812
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:43,160
If you're facing a bowler, you 
can pick the ball very early on 

813
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,200
and you can kind of smooth 
pursuit that the smooth, smooth 

814
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:51,400
pursuit track the ball for a 
much longer period of the event 

815
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,360
because you know what, like you 
can see the ball, the ball's 

816
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,360
within your visual field. 
The second use of bowling 

817
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,800
machine, that ball is occluded 
and if you occlude the ball and 

818
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:04,120
it's out of the visual field, 
then all of a sudden when it 

819
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,600
suddenly appears, it doesn't 
appear where we need it to 

820
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:08,880
appear because we'd like, 
because if you'd start to bring 

821
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:13,520
in other aspects to it. 
So that's the bit that gets me, 

822
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:19,120
is that batting isn't just 
relying on things like time to 

823
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:24,520
contact because they like train 
the things you do. 

824
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,440
Like if you're facing bowlers, 
train against bowlers. 

825
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,040
Now there is an argument for it,
like I shared an office with an 

826
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:33,360
SNC coach from my PhD and we had
this row. 

827
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:37,760
And like he he doesn't have the 
overs to spend or the pitches to

828
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,520
spend in his bowlers in a week's
training programme. 

829
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:46,240
If he gets to like Thursday. 
And his bowlers have spent their

830
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:50,440
20 overs for the week and 
they've they've already spent 

831
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:52,960
eighteen of them and he's got 
two overs left in their 

832
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:54,720
tolerance for the next four 
days. 

833
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:57,880
Like he's not letting them bowl 
in the Nets that day. 

834
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,080
So maybe we won't have to use 
the batting machine and that's 

835
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:05,400
OK. 
I guess it's it's how do we, how

836
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,480
do we encourage the bowler 
machine to become more 

837
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:12,720
representative and have more 
bits of kind of non specifying 

838
00:50:12,720 --> 00:50:16,560
information and more context 
attached to it and more of the 

839
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,280
purpose behind it. 
So if we're using the Bowler 

840
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,640
machine because we can't use 
bowlers because we haven't got 

841
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:27,000
any, well, ideal world, could we
kind of replicate some of the 

842
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,480
older, more traditional visual 
research studies and could we 

843
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:34,880
get like a a big white projector
screen in front of it and where 

844
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:39,040
the ball gets released from, Can
we cut out a hole in the screen 

845
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:41,680
there? 
And can we project videos of a 

846
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,800
bowler running in so when they 
release the ball from their 

847
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,640
hand, it's actually the video 
ends with the release of the 

848
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:50,640
hand up here and that's where 
the ball comes out of. 

849
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,240
Then you might get something 
more real and might feel more 

850
00:50:53,240 --> 00:50:55,880
like the game. 
Can we have fielding positions 

851
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:57,840
in place? 
Can we have a scenario? 

852
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:02,400
Can we add things which gives it
a bit more gain or or kind of 

853
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:06,360
performance relevant information
to support the use of that 

854
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:08,040
around the back of the Bowler 
machine? 

855
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,840
Because sometimes bowler 
machines are inevitable. 

856
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,760
Sometimes we can't escape them 
in the winter. 

857
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,800
If a batter wants to kind of bat
against a bottle machine because

858
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,880
there's no bowlers around, like,
that's fine, absolutely fine. 

859
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:24,160
Like, why not batting batting 
against something rather than 

860
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,320
batting against nothing is 
probably still going to help us.

861
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,480
I guess it's where you know when
we want to add value. 

862
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:33,920
If we're thinking about skill 
development specifically, then 

863
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:37,360
maybe we might have to make the 
decisions to to incorporate more

864
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:39,360
reliable elements. 
If our purpose is on skill 

865
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:41,560
development, let's get rid of 
the bowling machine. 

866
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,200
And if our purpose is on, you 
know, I've got a batter that's 

867
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:53,760
really out of form and they, you
know, So case in point, for the 

868
00:51:53,760 --> 00:52:00,120
first, the second set in my PhD,
we we added increasing bits of 

869
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,000
contextual information, so the 
first condition may just batted 

870
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,840
like a normal net session. 
So bowl is just running, Bowl 

871
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,200
random deliveries. 
They're not really particularly 

872
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:10,800
thoughtful, They're just bowling
them. 

873
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:14,760
Random sequence of bowlers like 
the gaps, like I'm pretty sure 

874
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:20,120
you just stood in the Nets just 
batting things away for ages in 

875
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,800
that, you know, batters are 
pretty comfortable. 

876
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:25,640
If you get out, you get out. 
Like there's no real consequence

877
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:27,760
to it. 
You just kind of get reset for 

878
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,560
the next delivery, which could 
be a spinner, it could be a same

879
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:33,720
bowler, it could be anything. 
Whereas when we started to add 

880
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,880
kind of context and pressure to 
it and we said well now you're 

881
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:42,280
facing the same bowler for a 
full over and you've also got to

882
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,880
score, you've got to score 15 
runs within the over. 

883
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:49,000
Like lot like batters really 
struggled and their their 

884
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,240
batting mechanics got very 
rushed and very Hanford and 

885
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,200
they're chatting to him after 
and it's like it's quite 

886
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:58,040
speculative but they're saying 
they felt more, they felt so 

887
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:01,360
stressed and they started having
to have chase a scoreboard. 

888
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:05,960
So they were timing shots much, 
much earlier because they were 

889
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:07,520
chasing after the ball a little 
bit. 

890
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,960
So all these bits of contextual 
information around it play such 

891
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:14,680
an important factor. 
So if our purpose is skill 

892
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:16,600
development, we've got to bring 
that stuff in. 

893
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:19,520
And that's where I'd say, well 
then we've got to move bowling 

894
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,240
machines out because, all right,
yes, you get the ball trajectory

895
00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:25,240
and you get your time to contact
stuff, but that's not batting. 

896
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:28,880
Batting is making use of all the
different forms of replacement 

897
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,840
that exist, all the stuff in the
build up, the fact that where's 

898
00:53:33,240 --> 00:53:36,600
the weather changes, pitch to 
pitch, innings to innings, like 

899
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:38,960
all those different things that 
are part of the batting 

900
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,640
experience. 
And you know, the magic of the 

901
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:45,160
ecological approaches is meant 
to be an embodied account of 

902
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,880
perception, the fact that it it 
takes Organism in its 

903
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,360
environment. 
And if we're going to appreciate

904
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,120
that complexity in those 
relations, we've got to ensure 

905
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,240
that those relations are nested 
within any kind of training 

906
00:53:57,240 --> 00:54:04,840
environment we try to create. 
To that point when when you're 

907
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:09,400
talking about finding ways to to
infuse a little bit of say that 

908
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:13,680
more representativeness or non 
specifying information into 

909
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:18,400
those practices are is there 
kind of like a rank order that 

910
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,760
you set up on things that you 
find most valuable on. 

911
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:27,360
My mind goes to what's a minimum
effective mix of OK, we have a 

912
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,880
pitching machine do the 
constraint of being inside. 

913
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,600
What are the the two to three 
variables that we want to add to

914
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:37,440
this to be able to make it more 
effective for the development of

915
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:41,760
skill? 
I mean there's there's no 

916
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,800
hierarchy of stuff. 
It's just try stuff and see what

917
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:48,880
works. 
Like sometimes, like space 

918
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:51,960
issues and time issues can 
dictate a lot of this stuff. 

919
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,880
So, like, I'm not really a 
cricket coach. 

920
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,040
A lot of this stuff just kind of
comes from my understanding of 

921
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,760
like constraints and thinking, 
oh, how I can design stuff. 

922
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:11,360
So we used I I think the key one
that we always use is, is 

923
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:14,200
fielding locations. 
And if that can be kind of 

924
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:18,040
replicated through like abstract
objects, so there's a visual 

925
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:20,240
thing they can see. 
So in the Nets you've got like 

926
00:55:20,240 --> 00:55:23,120
the actual Nets that run 
alongside and it might be like 

927
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:26,480
taping some a four sheets of 
paper at various points along 

928
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,520
the next to indicate there's a 
fielder within that line. 

929
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:34,320
Or it might be that we just kind
of we get a whiteboard. 

930
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:36,680
We put the field down on the 
whiteboard and say to the 

931
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:40,720
battle, this is the field and 
we're going to change it after. 

932
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,480
You know if we feel like we were
changing a game as a bowler, 

933
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:45,600
we're going to change it. 
We'll tell you we've changed and

934
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:47,840
you can come see the board again
and you can work out where your 

935
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,160
gaps are. 
Think that's the important thing

936
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:53,960
for me because too often like 
batters go through the motions 

937
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,640
and their next sessions just 
like just picking balls off and 

938
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:00,080
slapping shots and you know 
they're middling it off the 

939
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,280
middle of the bat and it sounds 
good and but you've got no idea 

940
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:05,720
if they've not just middled it 
down like someone's throat who 

941
00:56:05,720 --> 00:56:10,680
just lovely lovely catch. 
So give it some purpose and make

942
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:12,600
them have to. 
I. 

943
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:14,840
Think it's been really important
that batting is more 

944
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:18,000
intentional. 
I think that's the the the word 

945
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,000
that I guess I put into a 
practice on is like, is what 

946
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:25,160
we're doing intentional here? 
So I've got a battle, let's say.

947
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:32,640
I'll take me as an example. 
Anything which is not kind of 

948
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:36,720
going way wide of my wickets, 
I'm done. 

949
00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:37,720
Crap. 
I can't. 

950
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:40,360
I can't hit save my life. 
Anything coming anywhere near my

951
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,880
stamps like I'm guaranteed to 
get out. 

952
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:49,720
So for me, in my next sessions, 
I'd make sure that I set the 

953
00:56:49,720 --> 00:56:54,960
bowler up to bowl lots of 
straight ones and say, you know,

954
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:59,960
that this batter, IE me, gets 
out very often to straight ones 

955
00:56:59,960 --> 00:57:03,680
towards his stumps. 
So the batters think the bowlers

956
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:07,000
ain't got an intention, the 
bowlers got an intention for how

957
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:08,720
they're going to bowl. 
So straight away we've we've 

958
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:10,960
replicated some kind of 
performance environment. 

959
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:15,400
Then we might set up a field 
which deliberately prevents me 

960
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:16,800
from being able to play the 
shots I like. 

961
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:21,160
So if it's coming straight down 
at me I I might try and come 

962
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:24,160
across the line and play off my 
legs and try and flick it around

963
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:26,720
the corner. 
So what I'll do is I might make 

964
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:36,840
sure there's a, you know, third 
man is up and I might just try 

965
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:39,760
and play a slightly more heavy 
field on the leg side just to 

966
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:41,400
stop me from being able to play 
those shots. 

967
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:44,080
Because I know that I can keep 
doing it, but it's going to keep

968
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:45,480
going to field. 
There's not only any runs for 

969
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:48,200
it. 
So I have to play straight, I 

970
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:51,600
have to play into the covers. 
So that's going to therefore 

971
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:55,240
encourage me and like expose me 
to that more often. 

972
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:58,120
So I'm going to have to try and 
play those shots and if I'm 

973
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:01,720
having to play those shots, I'm 
having to experience those shots

974
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:06,920
and that's only going to learn. 
That leads to, I'd argue like 

975
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:09,960
more learning because I'm, I'm 
being exposed to the thing that 

976
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:12,480
I'm bad at. 
I'm having to bat very 

977
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:16,720
intentionally because without 
the field positions, I just keep

978
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:18,920
playing the same shot and just 
nick it off the legs and think, 

979
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:20,880
oh, I've done one, I've done a 
nice one there, oh lovely. 

980
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,520
When like in actual fact I just 
stuck it to another fielder. 

981
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,400
So I think making sure that like
the the, the wave of the 

982
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:30,640
bowlers, the batters, the 
pitchers, whatever, we're 

983
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:33,520
recording them, that their 
behaviours are really 

984
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:35,800
intentional because their 
behaviours are going to be 

985
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,600
really intentional when it comes
to the game in four days time. 

986
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:41,600
So if training can therefore be,
and obviously there's other 

987
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:46,840
stuff, like if we're no game day
-1, I'm probably not going to 

988
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:51,200
want overly burdensome practice 
designs with loads of decisions 

989
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,760
that are quite tiring. 
Like there's some nuance to this

990
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:58,400
and this and like there's some 
like clever programming and just

991
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:01,000
good coaching stuff. 
I'm not going to want to stress 

992
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:02,720
the life. 
Out of my batters the day. 

993
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:06,200
Before a game. 
So it might be if we if we're 

994
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:08,560
playing Saturday, on the Friday,
I might get the bowling machine 

995
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:13,760
out because it's nice and easy. 
They get in their groove, they 

996
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:16,080
can just go knock a few balls 
around, feel good. 

997
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:20,080
Because I know that on 
Wednesday, Thursday they're 

998
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:23,000
they're facing environments that
are really intentional and 

999
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:26,720
creating a bit of stress and a 
bit of anxiety and feels a bit 

1000
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:29,600
more like the game itself. 
And that's where my learning's 

1001
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:31,320
taking place. 
And Friday, maybe it's more 

1002
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:34,480
about maintenance and making 
sure they're feeling good, ready

1003
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:37,880
for the game the next day. 
So I think sometimes and I've 

1004
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:41,600
I've been really guilt with this
as well, is forgetting that 

1005
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:44,960
there's more to there's more to 
skill, more to coaching than 

1006
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:47,800
just the skill acquisition bit. 
There is like a person on the 

1007
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:50,040
end of all of this who has kind 
of thoughts and feelings. 

1008
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:53,240
And as much as you know as 
coaches sometimes we wish they 

1009
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:55,560
didn't and they were just robots
who did the things we want them 

1010
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:58,800
to do. 
Like it's not the case and I 

1011
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:01,400
think skill development is super
holistic and I think that's 

1012
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:03,560
where we get value from the 
ecological approach. 

1013
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:11,640
Well, and that was kind of where
to me. 

1014
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:14,760
If you truly appreciate 
ecological dynamics and the 

1015
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:20,160
constraint LED approach, you 
have to consider the person and 

1016
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:22,440
their psychological state in 
some ways. 

1017
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:24,600
But not not. 
Yeah, I think psychological 

1018
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:25,520
state is the right way to put 
it. 

1019
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:28,320
But I think that then plays into
what you were talking about in 

1020
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:31,160
your research currently of 
skilled intentionality. 

1021
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:37,040
I think we because our 
intentions might shift as we're 

1022
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:40,800
interacting with things and you 
know going back to talking about

1023
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:46,640
you applied you know more 
context to the practice 

1024
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:49,720
environment all of a sudden 
their behavior changed and so 

1025
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:56,960
that shifted their intentions I 
think to me like so this is 

1026
01:00:56,960 --> 01:01:01,480
where I'm curious what how do 
you how would you defined define

1027
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:05,000
skilled intentionality what is 
what is kind of the abstract 

1028
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:09,040
view of of this theory or this 
this concept. 

1029
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:12,840
And then and then I kind of want
to play with play with it a 

1030
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:16,680
little bit but at least I think 
we need to start there and not 

1031
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:19,320
assume that I that my 
understanding is correct. 

1032
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:22,560
I want to or you know just have 
people assuming and then 

1033
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:24,920
potentially us being wrong like 
on specifying information. 

1034
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:29,360
Yeah, I mean I I don't have a 
textbook definition of skilled 

1035
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:33,520
intentionality handy, but like I
only really initially I wasn't a

1036
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:35,640
massive fan of the skilled 
intentionality stuff. 

1037
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:41,640
But like I've like I've I've got
proper excited with the last 

1038
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:45,480
couple of years if it could just
if it suited the data it suited 

1039
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:48,360
my project so nicely. 
But I guess skilled 

1040
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:54,920
intentionality is like the the 
skilled use of that landscape of

1041
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:59,360
affordances like and if if we 
view affordances and our 

1042
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:03,800
relations to them and actually 
view affordances as existing 

1043
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:08,920
within relations, and if we we 
view that as being really nested

1044
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:16,800
and occurring over lots of 
different time scales and not 

1045
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:19,760
necessarily just being the thing
in front of me that I perceive. 

1046
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:23,400
So right now the the example 
that that got used quite a lot 

1047
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:29,600
was like, I can't directly 
perceive like the can of beer in

1048
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:31,960
my fridge. 
I can't see it, but I know it's 

1049
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:37,280
there. 
And I also know that like the 

1050
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:43,840
need like for me to like quench 
thirst, IE the affordance is is 

1051
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:45,320
the beer can in the fridge. 
But I can't. 

1052
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:48,600
I can't see it, but I can still 
perceive the fact that it exists

1053
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:52,040
and it has value to me and that 
it affords me the possibility to

1054
01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:54,840
drink. 
The skilled intentionality asks 

1055
01:02:54,840 --> 01:03:00,120
you answers those more 
representation hungry questions 

1056
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:02,680
like the answers, the questions 
like where we are having to do 

1057
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:06,040
some thinking about objects 
which are not currently in front

1058
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:07,560
of us. 
Like, I'm sat in my living room,

1059
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:10,800
I'm not in my kitchen, I can't 
even see the fridge, but I know 

1060
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:13,680
the fridge is there. 
I know that if I open the fridge

1061
01:03:13,680 --> 01:03:17,840
there is a can of beer. 
So how do those kind of more 

1062
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:21,520
bigger meta problems get solved?
And skilled intentionality 

1063
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:24,520
essentially aims to answer those
questions, the fact that how 

1064
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:27,200
does an individual skillfully 
navigate that landscape of 

1065
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:31,120
affordances and that kind of 
satisfy the relations we have 

1066
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:34,760
with the environment. 
So in a cricket context it would

1067
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:39,760
be very much like the, you know,
in cricket you could bat for the

1068
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:42,880
entire game. 
So unless you get out or you 

1069
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:46,480
declare, you could find yourself
batting for like an entire 8 

1070
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:50,240
hour day and you being the 
person out there, keep facing 

1071
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:52,240
the balls or your partner at the
other end. 

1072
01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:58,320
So I I really liked the use of 
skill and intentionality in that

1073
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:04,880
sense and the fact that it can 
it can be a nice framework to 

1074
01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:09,520
address the real temporal nature
of batting, the fact that it 

1075
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:11,280
this happens over a really long 
time. 

1076
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:20,200
So the work that I presented the
other month with Sean Tyler was 

1077
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:24,720
looking at. 
So we we interviewed with like a

1078
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:29,960
video stimulated interview. 
So we got the highlights from 

1079
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:33,320
the game they played two days 
before, sat down with each 

1080
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:38,440
batter and like just reflected 
and chatted about different 

1081
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:40,560
events and different moments 
within the highlights. 

1082
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:45,880
So some of the batters innings 
lasted like 2 hours, 3 hours. 

1083
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:50,000
Some of the batters like lost 
their wicket after like 3 

1084
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:51,760
deliveries. 
So the interviews are really 

1085
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:54,720
different in length and 
therefore their reflection's 

1086
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:58,240
really different. 
And one of the batters was like,

1087
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:00,920
oh, I like I think she was like 
I think of nothing. 

1088
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:03,120
Like, there's nothing going 
through my head when I'm 

1089
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:05,640
batting. 
I'm just singing a Boy's own 

1090
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:09,160
song. 
And like, like her entire 

1091
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:13,320
innings, like she's quite a 
young player, score like 50 or 

1092
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:17,840
60 or something. 
But it was like, actually like, 

1093
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:20,240
I have no, I have no 
recollection of anything. 

1094
01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:22,680
She was like, I was just singing
a song. 

1095
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:24,760
I was like, because I don't know
if I wasn't singing a song and 

1096
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:28,320
then I've been really frantic. 
But then other players were like

1097
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:32,480
really thoughtful, Like I 
remember this ball, I thought 

1098
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:35,040
she was going to swing it away, 
but then it knit back in on me 

1099
01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:39,000
and I had to get down to it late
and had to play on the back for,

1100
01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:40,760
like I said, really detailed 
answers. 

1101
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:43,760
And it just made me think that 
like the levels of 

1102
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:47,920
intentionality, the different 
ways these batters are using 

1103
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:52,080
information, like there's 
something really unique and 

1104
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:54,920
individual in all of this and 
essentially I think corresponds 

1105
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:57,480
with the use of like a a 
landscape of affordances, The 

1106
01:05:57,480 --> 01:06:00,960
fact that some batters are more 
skilled at doing that, some 

1107
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:04,120
batters have found a way to be 
skilled at using less of those 

1108
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:07,880
affordances. 
So I think standing back to that

1109
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:11,320
use of like more kind of sensory
and non sensory information. 

1110
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:15,240
Some batters were very aware of 
the non sensory stuff like the 

1111
01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:19,320
scout reports, the scoreboard, 
all those things that kind of 

1112
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:22,800
are information in all of 
themselves but not necessarily 

1113
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:25,760
specifying in any way. 
Some batters were really aware 

1114
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:29,120
of that and that was quite an 
integral part of their shot 

1115
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:31,960
selection. 
Whereas some batters were like 

1116
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:34,600
yeah no I didn't like I didn't 
even look at the score like I 

1117
01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:36,400
just I was just thinking I was 
enough for lunch. 

1118
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:39,360
Like it's like so all these 
different variations and it it 

1119
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:43,720
fitted really nicely with the 
the quiet eye work we published 

1120
01:06:43,720 --> 01:06:48,480
a couple of years ago. 
And the fact that when you when 

1121
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:54,320
you stop generalizing 
participant data to a mean score

1122
01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:57,480
you actually just start to see 
these real unique variations in 

1123
01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:01,680
performance. 
So both within individuals and 

1124
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:05,680
like between individuals. 
So you know a group of four, 

1125
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:09,320
each one of those four had 
slightly different like quiet 

1126
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:15,280
eye profiles IE how they 
perceived the the kind of the 

1127
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:19,440
key critical bit of information 
like differed quite quite quite 

1128
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:22,160
vastly. 
But then also within those 

1129
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:26,160
individuals themselves there was
variation from trial to trial. 

1130
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:30,080
So this for me just corresponds 
with that. 

1131
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:34,000
But I'm just like an unlock an 
additional level on this like 

1132
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:36,920
intentionality level, the fact 
that intentions might be the 

1133
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:40,440
thing that shapes perception of 
different events. 

1134
01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:45,080
The the hard bit is going to be 
how that how do I actually 

1135
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:52,960
evidence that because you know 
we can't conclusively say like 

1136
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:55,440
we can't see direct direct 
perception. 

1137
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:59,320
Like if you'd forgive the irony 
of it, like we can't see a 

1138
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:02,440
representation. 
We can see a series of like 

1139
01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:04,800
neural networks and firing 
neurons. 

1140
01:08:05,640 --> 01:08:07,840
And we've some people who 
assumed that means that's a 

1141
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:09,960
representation and some people 
who assumed that's just 

1142
01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:13,200
resonance, like we can't see 
this stuff, that's the 

1143
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:16,880
difficulty. 
But I think, yeah, that's kind 

1144
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:20,880
of skilled intentionality. 
I tried to explain, you brought 

1145
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:23,840
up a couple of different things 
that I wanted to touch on. 

1146
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:26,720
I wanted to go at least to stay 
on intentionality, but I do want

1147
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:31,640
to touch on resonance. 
So to me intentionality is like 

1148
01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:36,960
a lens by which like you filter 
what information you're going to

1149
01:08:37,359 --> 01:08:40,960
either pick up or how you aim to
interact with that information. 

1150
01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:47,000
And so I feel like because right
when you change the task 

1151
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:52,080
dynamics, you apply, you know 
you, you put in fielders and 

1152
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:54,520
then you give a consequence 
potentially or you give them a 

1153
01:08:54,520 --> 01:09:00,080
goal of scoring 15 runs. 
All of a sudden now the way that

1154
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:03,880
you aim to interact changes. 
But I think there's something to

1155
01:09:04,479 --> 01:09:13,040
the notion of being skillful in 
in picking out or deciding on or

1156
01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:20,240
what your intention is, right? 
So like a more skilled batter is

1157
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:26,439
able to pick the an an intention
that is going to match what they

1158
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:29,560
need to do. 
A less skilled batter may pick a

1159
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:33,240
different intention that is not 
going to functionally fit with 

1160
01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:36,200
the task. 
And so I because to me when I'm 

1161
01:09:36,200 --> 01:09:38,800
thinking about from a practice 
design standpoint the reason 

1162
01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:42,120
that why I want these 
potentially more difficult 

1163
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:48,399
scenarios or that have different
bits or slices of the game is so

1164
01:09:48,399 --> 01:09:53,640
that they can begin to attune to
what type of intentions are most

1165
01:09:53,640 --> 01:09:56,880
successful. 
You know because they can also 

1166
01:09:57,360 --> 01:10:00,320
become hyper focused on things 
that are you could say not 

1167
01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:06,600
specifying And so and that's 
where I I the whole your whole 

1168
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:08,840
definition of specifying 
information is just kind of like

1169
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:12,200
in some ways like blow my mind a
little bit because now how do 

1170
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:16,680
you delineate in my mind like 
there's there's information 

1171
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:23,280
that's valuable versus 
information that is like it it 

1172
01:10:23,360 --> 01:10:25,840
it is in the word of like 
contextual interference. 

1173
01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:28,920
Like it's it interferes with 
with you being able to connect. 

1174
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:32,120
And I think there's a difference
between to me how I was defining

1175
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:35,080
specifying information was only 
was it just had to be relevant. 

1176
01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:40,520
It was something that is useful 
for the task versus a lawful 

1177
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:43,880
thing. 
So that I'm curious at least on 

1178
01:10:43,880 --> 01:10:48,840
that point like is there a way 
to delineate things that are non

1179
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:53,000
specifying and non useful is 
that how you would have to term 

1180
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:57,520
it or you know specifying and or
non specifying and useful like 

1181
01:10:58,040 --> 01:11:02,480
that's that's where I guess on a
side tangent, I mean that's kind

1182
01:11:02,480 --> 01:11:05,800
of curious. 
Now there's some nice stuff from

1183
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:10,080
a guy called Ollie Brunswick 
whose whose work is it's 

1184
01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:13,800
actually based in on the 
predictive processing stuff, but

1185
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:18,320
looks at like when like 
contextual information is 

1186
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:20,480
incongruent with the actual 
actions. 

1187
01:11:20,480 --> 01:11:27,920
So it was in cricket and when 
the field positions don't align 

1188
01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:30,280
to the type of ball that's been 
bowled. 

1189
01:11:31,400 --> 01:11:34,360
So in in in cricket you'll 
deliver, you'll bowl certain 

1190
01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:36,920
types of balls based on your 
field positions because that's 

1191
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:42,360
more likely to get them out. 
But often times like wickets 

1192
01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:47,360
have like bars have lost their 
wicket to a delivery which they 

1193
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:51,640
weren't expecting because they 
might have waited too much of 

1194
01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:55,200
their focus on the context with 
maced around the field and may 

1195
01:11:55,200 --> 01:11:57,880
have kind of pre empted a kind 
of delivery And then at that 

1196
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:02,040
point when it hasn't come. 
So potentially like there is 

1197
01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:07,800
there is the point of 
information becoming or or or 

1198
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:09,800
stopping being as useful as it 
could be. 

1199
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:12,320
I guess it's based on like the 
weighting of that of how that 

1200
01:12:12,320 --> 01:12:15,000
information is used which I 
think is what comes back to the 

1201
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:17,600
fact that you know if we're 
going to train in training 

1202
01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:21,120
environments we've got to make 
sure this stuff is available to 

1203
01:12:21,120 --> 01:12:24,960
the batters to be able to search
through and search for to find 

1204
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:28,840
out what is going to be 
supportive action in terms of 

1205
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:30,760
delineating what's useful and 
what's not. 

1206
01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:35,920
It's just really difficult and 
and I don't think we know like 

1207
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:40,520
like we can't know for certain 
that you know what they do in 

1208
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:43,240
their run up is for good or for 
evil. 

1209
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:50,960
In the same way that like. 
So kinematics are talked about a

1210
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:54,280
lot in the visual search 
research, particularly around 

1211
01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:57,320
like when we're perceiving 
someone throwing a projectile. 

1212
01:12:58,320 --> 01:13:01,520
But then a lot of the cricketers
we spoke to in the stimulated 

1213
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:05,400
recall in interviews paid very 
little attention to what the 

1214
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:09,880
bowler was doing kinematically. 
So there there is this 

1215
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:12,720
disconnect in kind of how people
use information that there is 

1216
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:17,240
some you know just because we 
put eye trackers on someone and 

1217
01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:21,080
that their their retinas are are
moving towards different parts 

1218
01:13:21,080 --> 01:13:22,960
of the body. 
Does that mean their intention 

1219
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:28,160
or their attention is actually 
placed there And it's more of a 

1220
01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:31,040
question thrown up in the air 
more than anything like making a

1221
01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:34,320
point on anything but I don't 
think we know. 

1222
01:13:34,440 --> 01:13:37,320
It's basically the point I'm 
trying to make and that we are 

1223
01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:40,480
trying to generate an idea of 
this stuff. 

1224
01:13:42,400 --> 01:13:45,240
But for one batter something 
might be useful, for another 

1225
01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:47,760
batter it might not be. 
I think that's the the the the 

1226
01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:49,760
point of the skilled 
intentionality is that. 

1227
01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:52,800
That the. 
Purpose of it in the bowler 

1228
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:55,480
sense in those kind of 
intentions is to keep as many 

1229
01:13:55,480 --> 01:13:59,680
potential affordances open as 
until as late as possible so 

1230
01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:04,760
that selection can come much 
later, IE through using non 

1231
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:08,320
specifying information in the 
the in the the bowlers gather 

1232
01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:11,880
and run up. 
I'm positioning myself to make 

1233
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:15,400
use of as many different 
affordances as possible for when

1234
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:17,560
more specifying information is 
available. 

1235
01:14:17,560 --> 01:14:21,040
I can then select the 
appropriate or select is the 

1236
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:26,000
wrong word there, but I can make
a more effective action to 

1237
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:28,640
intercept the ball and kind of 
put it into a certain area. 

1238
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:37,920
I guess the other thing I would 
I wanted to explore is you know 

1239
01:14:37,920 --> 01:14:42,320
the the the one, the one gal who
she just had a song kind of 

1240
01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:45,520
going in her head. 
To me this is this I think plays

1241
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:47,600
a little bit towards the the 
question of resonance. 

1242
01:14:49,400 --> 01:14:54,880
What I got from ecological 
dynamics is this sense that our 

1243
01:14:54,880 --> 01:15:00,320
system will use information and 
coordinate based upon that 

1244
01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:02,880
information. 
We might not even be consciously

1245
01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:06,520
aware of it. 
So for example, you know how 

1246
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:09,040
previous like that. 
To that quote, you know how 

1247
01:15:09,040 --> 01:15:13,480
previous events will bias us 
towards the the next, the the 

1248
01:15:13,480 --> 01:15:16,240
coming events. 
Well, if I am singing a song and

1249
01:15:16,240 --> 01:15:22,040
I'm not letting that information
overly, I don't get overly 

1250
01:15:22,040 --> 01:15:26,360
fixated on on on it, but rather 
I let because right in some ways

1251
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:29,040
we're really good at picking up 
patterns and it becomes 

1252
01:15:29,040 --> 01:15:31,760
intuitive, right. 
We intuit the pattern before we 

1253
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:34,840
can fully articulate the the 
thing that we're seeing 

1254
01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:41,520
sometimes And so I guess we're 
where I'm going is, is how much 

1255
01:15:41,520 --> 01:15:45,600
does it matter except for like 
kind of you know trying to 

1256
01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:49,320
puzzle it out later. 
You know what what a person is 

1257
01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:51,800
is necessarily saying because 
like in that in that example 

1258
01:15:52,240 --> 01:15:55,280
like because This is why. 
For example when I hear hear a 

1259
01:15:55,280 --> 01:15:58,680
player talk about like, so let's
go Some of the research that 

1260
01:15:58,680 --> 01:16:02,520
I've looked at with gaze 
behavior and hitters is that 

1261
01:16:02,720 --> 01:16:05,680
some hitters or like novice 
hitters will look at parts of 

1262
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:08,480
the body that expert hitters 
tend not to. 

1263
01:16:08,480 --> 01:16:09,960
Right. 
Like if you're still looking at 

1264
01:16:10,240 --> 01:16:14,160
the chat or the like the the 
lead arm or whatever, when the 

1265
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:16,560
hand starts to come out, OK, 
maybe you're not looking in the 

1266
01:16:16,560 --> 01:16:19,560
right area. 
But if you are successful and 

1267
01:16:19,560 --> 01:16:22,280
you're looking at an area that 
doesn't seem to make sense, that

1268
01:16:22,280 --> 01:16:25,080
tells me that like oh, maybe 
you're using the periphery, 

1269
01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:27,800
you're better at picking out 
periphery information and 

1270
01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:31,680
utilizing it that way versus 
looking directly and having like

1271
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:36,520
your focal point being there. 
And so I think that's that's 

1272
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:39,280
kind of to me my understanding 
of like part of what we're 

1273
01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:41,560
trying to do with direct 
perception is open the system up

1274
01:16:41,560 --> 01:16:44,200
to being to be able to fully 
connect with the information 

1275
01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:48,760
there and not cloud it with with
something else and like hone in 

1276
01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:51,400
on information that's not 
useful. 

1277
01:16:52,160 --> 01:16:55,640
And I'm curious on this because 
Rob, Rob Gray talked about this 

1278
01:16:55,640 --> 01:17:00,520
of you know when we use a 
batting or a a pitching machine 

1279
01:17:01,440 --> 01:17:05,280
we can become attuned to non 
specifying information or we can

1280
01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:10,760
develop a a relationship with it
that doesn't actually translate 

1281
01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:16,920
to to the to the the the game 
context with with an actual 

1282
01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:21,480
pitcher. 
So how do you how do you look at

1283
01:17:21,480 --> 01:17:24,400
that as far as like is it are 
they attuning to non specifying 

1284
01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:27,400
information when they're when 
they're hitting off of a bowling

1285
01:17:27,400 --> 01:17:28,880
machine and that's why it's not 
transferring. 

1286
01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:31,480
But if we're talking about like 
towel being there they're still 

1287
01:17:31,480 --> 01:17:34,160
the the same specifying 
information. 

1288
01:17:34,360 --> 01:17:35,720
So I guess what? 
What is it? 

1289
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:38,920
Do you have a different way of 
explaining that than how Rob was

1290
01:17:39,240 --> 01:17:42,800
talking about it? 
Without knowing the context that

1291
01:17:42,800 --> 01:17:45,760
Rob was talking about it in, I'm
not sure I'd. 

1292
01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:48,440
I'd be a brave man to go up 
against Rob anyway. 

1293
01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:51,840
He is the He's the authority in 
this. 

1294
01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:54,360
Space. 
Yeah. 

1295
01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:55,760
I wouldn't want to go up. 
Yeah. 

1296
01:17:55,760 --> 01:17:57,960
I wouldn't know the context 
which Rob was talking about 

1297
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:10,680
because in my like the bubble 
trajectory itself is is an 

1298
01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:14,920
information variable that is 
specifying some kind of action. 

1299
01:18:14,920 --> 01:18:18,080
The non specifying stuff in 
terms of the fact that it's a 

1300
01:18:18,080 --> 01:18:21,640
bowling machine and that there 
is no run up and that there's no

1301
01:18:22,520 --> 01:18:25,800
you can't perceive the release 
point in that sense. 

1302
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:28,080
The fact that that kind of non 
specifying information isn't 

1303
01:18:28,080 --> 01:18:31,200
there and therefore you're 
picking up on non specifying 

1304
01:18:31,200 --> 01:18:34,400
information in the sense of the 
machine itself. 

1305
01:18:34,400 --> 01:18:39,760
And so in cricket when you use 
the bowling machine, the person 

1306
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:42,800
like operating the machine will 
hold the ball in their hand, put

1307
01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:46,880
their arm directly up in the air
and then feed the machine. 

1308
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:50,440
So in that sense, like if 
they're attuning to that action 

1309
01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:55,320
as a trigger for the ball is 
about to be released like that's

1310
01:18:55,320 --> 01:18:58,200
that's maybe attuning to a non 
specifying information source 

1311
01:18:58,200 --> 01:18:59,840
which will not transfer 
effectively. 

1312
01:19:00,480 --> 01:19:03,480
So in that sense, if there's a 
similar mechanism within a 

1313
01:19:03,480 --> 01:19:07,360
baseball pitching machine, in 
the sense that if they are like 

1314
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:09,960
if they are picking up on 
information from the person 

1315
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:15,080
operating the machine or in the 
sense that there is a a lag time

1316
01:19:15,080 --> 01:19:17,560
or a delay time between ball to 
ball. 

1317
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:21,920
If it's like an auto firing 
machine picking up of that 

1318
01:19:21,920 --> 01:19:26,320
information which probably isn't
conducive to performance even, 

1319
01:19:26,320 --> 01:19:29,040
it translates into the actual, 
the game itself. 

1320
01:19:34,680 --> 01:19:38,440
I guess my last kind of question
is what are your what are your 

1321
01:19:38,440 --> 01:19:42,880
thoughts on resonance? 
You know, when it comes to how 

1322
01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:45,880
we become attuned to things like
because to me it's all about the

1323
01:19:45,880 --> 01:19:50,280
pickup of information and then 
you know and then to me, you 

1324
01:19:50,280 --> 01:19:54,640
don't necessarily need to be 
able to fully articulate it 

1325
01:19:54,640 --> 01:19:58,440
because to me resonance and 
attunement like allow for more 

1326
01:19:58,440 --> 01:20:02,600
of an an embodied, sort of like 
direct. 

1327
01:20:03,680 --> 01:20:06,280
Interaction with with the with 
the information. 

1328
01:20:06,280 --> 01:20:09,280
But I don't I don't know really 
know like the the full 

1329
01:20:09,280 --> 01:20:14,160
mechanisms of it just other than
like you become sensitive to the

1330
01:20:14,160 --> 01:20:16,320
information you're able to pick 
it up faster. 

1331
01:20:16,800 --> 01:20:20,160
You'll be able to like, I don't 
know, again, kind of like a 

1332
01:20:20,160 --> 01:20:23,800
radio wave, right. 
Like it's, it's matching pitch 

1333
01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:25,880
in terms of like tone or 
frequency. 

1334
01:20:28,200 --> 01:20:31,920
And so that's that's where I see
like the the difference between 

1335
01:20:31,920 --> 01:20:36,720
like information processing, you
know, versus attunement and 

1336
01:20:36,720 --> 01:20:40,600
resonance like that. 
That to me seems to be a more, I

1337
01:20:40,600 --> 01:20:43,560
don't know, direct or analogue 
way of interacting with the 

1338
01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:46,040
world. 
Yeah. 

1339
01:20:46,040 --> 01:20:53,040
I mean the resonance stuff comes
from like the metaphor of that 

1340
01:20:53,040 --> 01:20:59,400
Gibson used of like a radio 
transmitter and the fact that it

1341
01:20:59,400 --> 01:21:04,720
is like resonating to the 
signals that then generate like 

1342
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:07,560
the the the the the noise 
essentially. 

1343
01:21:08,840 --> 01:21:12,080
But I I've, I've really 
struggled with that resonance 

1344
01:21:12,200 --> 01:21:19,640
metaphor because because go and 
go for it. 

1345
01:21:20,600 --> 01:21:23,320
Oh, well, because when I looked 
into the concept of resonance, 

1346
01:21:23,480 --> 01:21:28,120
right, like things have, you 
know, for example, metal has a 

1347
01:21:28,120 --> 01:21:32,080
frequency that it resonates at 
and what would it when you look 

1348
01:21:32,080 --> 01:21:33,520
at like, well, what does that 
mean? 

1349
01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:38,320
It means that for for the input 
in, it actually will like double

1350
01:21:38,320 --> 01:21:40,760
or something right, Like so for 
the same amount of input you're 

1351
01:21:40,760 --> 01:21:44,640
actually getting more. 
And so I almost wonder if like 

1352
01:21:44,760 --> 01:21:47,480
you know, when something 
resonates with you, all of a 

1353
01:21:47,480 --> 01:21:50,000
sudden you it gives you more 
energy, you connect with it, 

1354
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:53,160
you're drawn towards it. 
And so I to me that's kind of 

1355
01:21:53,400 --> 01:21:56,200
how I understand the concept of 
resonance or attunement. 

1356
01:21:56,200 --> 01:22:01,320
Like you, you are drawn towards 
this thing and so like for 

1357
01:22:01,320 --> 01:22:06,560
example, to become more attuned 
and sensitive to the information

1358
01:22:06,560 --> 01:22:12,680
that's going to help you most 
functionally execute the task. 

1359
01:22:13,680 --> 01:22:15,800
That's kind of like to me the 
whole purpose of practice is 

1360
01:22:15,800 --> 01:22:19,640
like when you become these, 
these things become more 

1361
01:22:19,640 --> 01:22:25,120
intuitive like just in the way 
of that with a somebody who has 

1362
01:22:25,120 --> 01:22:28,400
mastered something, things 
become really simple, right? 

1363
01:22:28,400 --> 01:22:31,560
Like all this, you know, the 
things that would bog down a 

1364
01:22:31,560 --> 01:22:35,160
novice. 
It's like well based upon the 

1365
01:22:35,680 --> 01:22:37,920
the constraints of the 
situation, I'm able to hone in 

1366
01:22:37,920 --> 01:22:41,480
very simply you know to me on 
these on this kind of notion of 

1367
01:22:41,480 --> 01:22:44,480
like higher order variables, 
there's higher order things that

1368
01:22:44,920 --> 01:22:49,080
kind of like prioritize and I 
understand what the priorities 

1369
01:22:49,080 --> 01:22:52,320
are and like I'm able to hone in
very simply based upon these 

1370
01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:55,120
like simple concepts. 
And so I don't know that's 

1371
01:22:55,120 --> 01:22:59,680
that's for me at least how I'm 
trying to or how I I view like 

1372
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:02,560
attunement, resonance, like 
these things all of a sudden 

1373
01:23:02,560 --> 01:23:08,200
they they give you more energy 
they they draw you in to the 

1374
01:23:08,200 --> 01:23:10,320
thing And I think that's also 
related to affordances. 

1375
01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:13,880
You know, why do we accept some 
affordances versus other 

1376
01:23:13,880 --> 01:23:18,120
affordances. 
There's there's a post hoc 

1377
01:23:18,120 --> 01:23:19,960
explanation. 
I can see the logic in that. 

1378
01:23:20,120 --> 01:23:24,040
I mean like resonance 
traditionally was around like 

1379
01:23:24,040 --> 01:23:34,360
the resonance between like the 
information and like the, the, 

1380
01:23:34,440 --> 01:23:38,760
the neural signals essentially 
like the, the essentially like 

1381
01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:41,400
the corresponding frequency of 
the information variables and 

1382
01:23:41,400 --> 01:23:43,920
how that is then picked up by 
the perceptual system. 

1383
01:23:44,680 --> 01:23:47,880
And then there's some stuff 
around like oscillating 

1384
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:50,400
frequencies, which then goes a 
little bit beyond me. 

1385
01:23:53,440 --> 01:23:56,480
But yeah, my, my PhD supervisor 
always asks me he's always like 

1386
01:23:56,480 --> 01:24:01,040
like what actually is 
achievement, like what is it? 

1387
01:24:01,040 --> 01:24:06,120
And like, it's always like a 
becomes like a metaphysical like

1388
01:24:06,240 --> 01:24:09,160
debate about what achievement 
actually is. 

1389
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:15,120
And I'm I'm still not convinced 
that I've provided a sound 

1390
01:24:15,120 --> 01:24:18,160
enough answer because I you end 
up falling back on other 

1391
01:24:18,160 --> 01:24:20,040
metaphors, like resonance for 
example. 

1392
01:24:22,720 --> 01:24:25,000
Yeah, so resonance. 
I've always found it's a bit of 

1393
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:30,640
a tricky sticking point in the 
theory, but as like a metaphor, 

1394
01:24:30,640 --> 01:24:33,120
it does nicely explain 
essentially the the the 

1395
01:24:33,320 --> 01:24:37,120
mechanics of their perception. 
In the sense that if there is no

1396
01:24:38,360 --> 01:24:41,760
resonance between the frequency 
of the information variables and

1397
01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:45,160
how we are picking them up, then
there is going to be like a 

1398
01:24:45,800 --> 01:24:49,120
corresponding relation between 
myself and that information. 

1399
01:24:49,120 --> 01:24:52,320
So there's a metaphor, I like it
in terms of mechanics. 

1400
01:24:52,320 --> 01:24:54,080
I'm still trying to get my head 
around here. 

1401
01:24:58,280 --> 01:25:01,120
That's fair. 
I think that's a kind of a 

1402
01:25:01,960 --> 01:25:03,760
unless. 
AJ do you have anything or 

1403
01:25:03,760 --> 01:25:08,720
Robert do you have anything that
you want to any other questions 

1404
01:25:08,720 --> 01:25:11,640
you want to ask before we we 
wrap it up? 

1405
01:25:13,560 --> 01:25:17,080
No, I don't got anything because
I think the question I wanted to

1406
01:25:17,080 --> 01:25:19,280
ask was regarding the residency 
you asked again. 

1407
01:25:21,920 --> 01:25:23,800
Yeah, I I have one more just to 
wrap us up. 

1408
01:25:23,800 --> 01:25:27,880
It'll be quick, but what's one 
thing that you think batters 

1409
01:25:27,880 --> 01:25:30,920
should be doing more of that 
most currently aren't, that 

1410
01:25:30,920 --> 01:25:37,920
you've seen in your research? 
Batting, like actually just 

1411
01:25:37,920 --> 01:25:42,760
spend some time batting. 
That's a bit flippant. 

1412
01:25:42,760 --> 01:25:47,480
But I, I, I'm on like the 
peripheries of this stuff from 

1413
01:25:47,480 --> 01:25:52,760
just like seeing a few things on
like social media and see a lot 

1414
01:25:52,760 --> 01:25:58,440
of time like batters like doing 
a doing a lot of stuff on like 

1415
01:25:58,440 --> 01:26:00,560
the shape of their like bat 
path. 

1416
01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:05,360
And similar to golfers like 
spending so much time on their 

1417
01:26:05,360 --> 01:26:10,160
swing and forgetting that 
there's actually a ball they've 

1418
01:26:10,160 --> 01:26:17,080
got here at some point and that 
there's like another person like

1419
01:26:17,440 --> 01:26:20,480
a fair few meters away who's 
trying to stop you from having 

1420
01:26:20,480 --> 01:26:24,480
that ideal back path and they're
going to throw it to disrupt 

1421
01:26:24,480 --> 01:26:27,800
that back path. 
So why not spend some time 

1422
01:26:28,920 --> 01:26:31,600
making that back path more like 
or black. 

1423
01:26:31,640 --> 01:26:34,920
I'm I'm using flipping terms but
like why not spend more time 

1424
01:26:34,920 --> 01:26:37,640
developing like that dexterity 
and that adaptability and the 

1425
01:26:37,640 --> 01:26:42,280
ability to to really tightly 
couple perception and action. 

1426
01:26:42,360 --> 01:26:47,440
And you know, I've seen some 
cricketers with with lovely 

1427
01:26:47,720 --> 01:26:51,160
batting mechanics like they they
look, they love, their shots 

1428
01:26:51,160 --> 01:26:57,160
look good, but anything which is
outside of their wheelhouse, any

1429
01:26:57,160 --> 01:26:59,920
delivery which has got like a 
little bit of shape to it and 

1430
01:26:59,920 --> 01:27:01,000
like they fall. 
Apart. 

1431
01:27:01,000 --> 01:27:03,960
And some of the best batters 
I've seen have been that. 

1432
01:27:03,960 --> 01:27:06,720
Some of the most unconventional,
ugliest batters. 

1433
01:27:07,240 --> 01:27:11,400
But they are ultimately you are 
because of batter. 

1434
01:27:11,400 --> 01:27:14,880
In any sport you are judged on 
your ability to make bat on bat 

1435
01:27:14,880 --> 01:27:18,320
on ball contacts consistently, 
cleanly and effectively. 

1436
01:27:18,320 --> 01:27:23,800
And if it looks like, if it look
baggy, then it looks baggy like 

1437
01:27:23,800 --> 01:27:27,920
who's who's who's really caring 
when the the ball's like 

1438
01:27:27,920 --> 01:27:31,880
clearing the boundary. 
Like see I just think like let's

1439
01:27:31,880 --> 01:27:35,320
let's just allow batters to to 
spend a bit more time actually 

1440
01:27:35,320 --> 01:27:38,040
batting and and coupling 
perception action. 

1441
01:27:41,080 --> 01:27:42,840
Yeah, that. 
That's a great little quote to 

1442
01:27:43,040 --> 01:27:45,080
to wrap it up. 
It's if you want to get better 

1443
01:27:45,080 --> 01:27:50,120
at batting bat more. 
I guess on a, on a practical 

1444
01:27:50,120 --> 01:27:53,040
note then what are some ways to 
to do that? 

1445
01:27:53,040 --> 01:27:57,480
Like for example, in my mind 
like, you know, you talked about

1446
01:27:58,160 --> 01:28:00,200
because I mean you're talking 
about batters, but let's let's 

1447
01:28:00,200 --> 01:28:02,880
flip it, let's talk about like 
pitchers in bowlers, right. 

1448
01:28:02,880 --> 01:28:08,040
Like I don't know like would it 
not be just as efficacious for 

1449
01:28:08,040 --> 01:28:12,520
them to pitch to hitters more. 
And then if you because to me 

1450
01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:15,960
that's where the like where this
practically goes is. 

1451
01:28:15,960 --> 01:28:20,360
Like I don't know if if a if 
you're working on hitting you 

1452
01:28:20,360 --> 01:28:22,240
need a pitcher present and vice 
versa. 

1453
01:28:22,320 --> 01:28:26,600
Like you know if if a pitcher 
only has so much volume, you 

1454
01:28:26,600 --> 01:28:31,400
know that they can they can 
throw in a day a good portion of

1455
01:28:31,400 --> 01:28:35,120
that if not all of it should be 
to a hitter like I don't to me 

1456
01:28:35,120 --> 01:28:38,600
that just makes sense and so 
because then you can kind of 

1457
01:28:38,920 --> 01:28:43,360
then supplement like you're 
saying with with a pitching 

1458
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:47,640
machine later. 
But I think that's that to me is

1459
01:28:48,720 --> 01:28:53,680
the the ideal and I think more 
people should try to figure out 

1460
01:28:53,680 --> 01:28:56,200
that process because I think 
it's you know it's the same way 

1461
01:28:56,200 --> 01:28:59,560
of like if you're going to you 
know do martial arts or whatever

1462
01:28:59,560 --> 01:29:02,760
like you can't really learn how 
to wrestle if you don't wrestle 

1463
01:29:02,760 --> 01:29:07,640
against somebody else like. 
So that's at least my my thought

1464
01:29:07,640 --> 01:29:09,560
process there. 
I don't know Ben if you have any

1465
01:29:09,560 --> 01:29:12,920
other thoughts on on on 
practically how to how to 

1466
01:29:14,960 --> 01:29:18,160
logistically make that work. 
It's all just come back down to 

1467
01:29:18,160 --> 01:29:20,600
intentions really like the same 
thing. 

1468
01:29:20,600 --> 01:29:23,720
I'm I'm a pretty good bowler 
when it comes to bowling at the 

1469
01:29:23,720 --> 01:29:26,600
Nets and there's no batter 
involved like I'm I look I look 

1470
01:29:26,600 --> 01:29:31,440
half good because the the the 
when the intentions change and 

1471
01:29:31,440 --> 01:29:33,760
all of a sudden you're not just 
trying to like hit the wickets 

1472
01:29:33,760 --> 01:29:37,440
you're trying to navigate a 
person who's trying to smash the

1473
01:29:37,440 --> 01:29:42,160
ball away that becomes a very 
different bowling becomes a very

1474
01:29:42,160 --> 01:29:46,360
different experience. 
And yeah, I think it's just run 

1475
01:29:46,360 --> 01:29:50,000
like setting those intentions. 
And whether that comes very 

1476
01:29:50,000 --> 01:29:53,560
literally in the design of our 
practice or maybe more like 

1477
01:29:56,160 --> 01:30:01,840
maybe more kind of subtly in 
instructions and interactions we

1478
01:30:01,840 --> 01:30:03,240
have with the batters and 
bowlers. 

1479
01:30:03,240 --> 01:30:08,880
Like are we giving our our 
performers instructions within 

1480
01:30:08,880 --> 01:30:10,760
training that shapes their 
intentions? 

1481
01:30:10,920 --> 01:30:14,640
Are we saying them to them like 
you know in training tomorrow 

1482
01:30:14,640 --> 01:30:17,960
and maybe I might ask my my 
batter to, you know when you're 

1483
01:30:17,960 --> 01:30:20,440
when you're in your in your in 
your batting group tomorrow, 

1484
01:30:20,440 --> 01:30:23,960
just just go after it just just 
try and score as big as you can.

1485
01:30:24,800 --> 01:30:29,040
Are we like allowing them to 
kind of be shaped by those 

1486
01:30:29,040 --> 01:30:31,440
different intentions. 
So when it comes down to it, 

1487
01:30:31,440 --> 01:30:35,040
like potentially we might be 
able to get those elements to 

1488
01:30:35,040 --> 01:30:37,120
transfer into the performance 
environment if they're more 

1489
01:30:37,120 --> 01:30:40,680
exposed to batting with that 
particular set of intentions. 

1490
01:30:41,800 --> 01:30:45,000
But but yeah, I think 
ultimately, you know Garrett, 

1491
01:30:45,000 --> 01:30:50,160
your points, your points there 
like bats and bowlers, get them 

1492
01:30:50,160 --> 01:30:53,120
set up together. 
What types of resources would 

1493
01:30:53,120 --> 01:30:55,960
you recommend to people? 
There doesn't even have to be 

1494
01:30:56,680 --> 01:31:00,240
ecological dynamics or whatever.
Just anything that you think 

1495
01:31:00,240 --> 01:31:02,720
would be good and helpful for 
people, resources. 

1496
01:31:02,720 --> 01:31:05,800
And then two, where can people 
find you if they want to connect

1497
01:31:05,800 --> 01:31:10,480
with you? 
Only because it's a lot of what 

1498
01:31:10,480 --> 01:31:14,640
I'm reading at the moment, like 
anything by people like Oliver 

1499
01:31:14,640 --> 01:31:18,280
Randswick, Sean Miller, like 
those kind of guys. 

1500
01:31:18,280 --> 01:31:21,880
Just like just just wicked 
research that's not framed 

1501
01:31:21,880 --> 01:31:24,960
ecologically but just answering 
some like really, really good 

1502
01:31:24,960 --> 01:31:27,720
questions and where you can find
me. 

1503
01:31:27,720 --> 01:31:30,120
I am that. 
I'm on Twitter, but I'm not not 

1504
01:31:30,120 --> 01:31:35,040
on it a lot or not as much as I 
used to be and I can't remember 

1505
01:31:35,040 --> 01:31:39,320
what my hat is. 
I can't know. 

1506
01:31:39,320 --> 01:31:41,640
I don't think it's. 
It's like, well, let's see. 

1507
01:31:41,800 --> 01:31:45,400
I mean I can throw it in the. 
Arab. 

1508
01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:50,160
Comments here? 
It doesn't matter. 

1509
01:31:50,280 --> 01:31:51,800
Social media is overrated, 
right? 

1510
01:31:55,240 --> 01:31:58,560
See, it's Ben under score, 
Franks one. 

1511
01:31:59,280 --> 01:32:02,760
There we go. 
So, all right. 

1512
01:32:02,760 --> 01:32:05,680
Well, thanks for coming on. 
It's been a pleasure chatting 

1513
01:32:05,680 --> 01:32:08,160
with you. 
And until next time, everybody.