1 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:09,960 Anyway, anyway, hello and welcome to Whose Song Is It 2 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:12,720 Anyway? I'm Dr. Haley Brochure, and for 3 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,520 this special season of the podcast focusing on women in the 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:17,760 music industry, I'll be your host. 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:22,640 Hi, Naomi. Thanks for coming on the Whose 6 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:24,280 Song Is It Anyway? Podcast today. 7 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,480 It's a pleasure to have you. Hi, it's a pleasure to be here. 8 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,990 Thank you for inviting me. So can you explain to our 9 00:00:30,990 --> 00:00:34,190 listeners who you are and what you do in the music industry? 10 00:00:35,150 --> 00:00:37,230 Yes. So my name is Naomi Pole and I'm 11 00:00:37,270 --> 00:00:40,830 the general secretary of the Musicians Union, So I was 12 00:00:40,830 --> 00:00:44,190 elected last March on the eve of International Women's Day. 13 00:00:44,190 --> 00:00:46,070 So that was really exciting for me. 14 00:00:46,310 --> 00:00:49,310 So I've been in the post nearly a year now and the Musicians 15 00:00:49,310 --> 00:00:52,070 Union is a trade union for professional musicians living 16 00:00:52,070 --> 00:00:54,590 and working in the UK. So am I right in? 17 00:00:54,590 --> 00:00:57,830 Thinking that you're the first woman to be in this position in 18 00:00:57,830 --> 00:00:59,940 that organization. Is that right? 19 00:01:00,460 --> 00:01:05,940 Yeah, I am, yes. So we're it's a 130th 20 00:01:06,060 --> 00:01:10,940 anniversary this year and all the previous general secretaries 21 00:01:10,940 --> 00:01:15,060 have been men, yeah cuz it's fairly male dominated union, but 22 00:01:15,740 --> 00:01:18,500 I'm hoping that that will change a bit whilst I'm general 23 00:01:18,500 --> 00:01:20,400 secretary. Well, exactly. 24 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,560 And we talked about this in some of the other episodes that it's 25 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,920 so important to have women in positions of leadership and but 26 00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:30,200 at the same time, it's quite easy to be a pioneering women 27 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,360 and a woman in some ways because there are still so many firsts. 28 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:38,440 I mean, isn't that crazy that that you only became the first 29 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,000 woman to do this role a year ago? 30 00:01:41,820 --> 00:01:43,380 Sometimes this stuff blows my mind cuz. 31 00:01:43,380 --> 00:01:48,580 You think I know it's 2023 like? So well done and congratulations 32 00:01:48,580 --> 00:01:50,420 and thank you. I suppose is. 33 00:01:50,620 --> 00:01:53,340 What there is to say about that? So how are you finding it in the 34 00:01:53,340 --> 00:01:56,420 role As you said the it's quite a male dominated organization, 35 00:01:56,420 --> 00:01:59,340 but then I suppose it reflects it was quite a male dominated 36 00:01:59,340 --> 00:02:01,600 industry really. Yeah, that's the thing. 37 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,960 I think the music industry still fairly male dominated and the 38 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,800 life of a musician, if you're on the road a lot, you know it, 39 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:11,720 that's still a male dominated world. 40 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,560 It's a lot of antisocial hours. Safety is an issue. 41 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:17,320 We might talk about that in a bit. 42 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,080 But yeah, so I think, you know all members, I think we've got 43 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:26,200 68% men and the trade union movement has traditionally been 44 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,670 quite male dominated as well. And obviously it depends on the 45 00:02:29,670 --> 00:02:32,830 type of union. So the fire brigade union for 46 00:02:32,830 --> 00:02:36,590 example is very male dominated. But it's, you know, it's not 47 00:02:36,590 --> 00:02:38,470 just those male dominated professions. 48 00:02:38,470 --> 00:02:42,030 I think the trade union movement has been quite macho in the 49 00:02:42,030 --> 00:02:46,750 past. And so probably until even 1015 50 00:02:46,750 --> 00:02:49,190 years ago, probably a lot of trade unions, the senior jobs 51 00:02:49,190 --> 00:02:51,430 were still occupied by men. So I think I've got a double 52 00:02:51,430 --> 00:02:53,630 challenge. It's the trade union movement 53 00:02:53,630 --> 00:02:57,240 and the music industry. But you're seeing change in the 54 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,240 trade union movement as well. Now there's a lot more female 55 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:04,720 general secretaries of of unions, lots of the unions that 56 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,880 are striking at the moment and you beginning to see change in 57 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:12,200 the music industry too. So, you know, I now go to many 58 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:16,000 fewer board meetings where I'm the only woman or there's only 59 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:17,880 two of us. You know, it's beginning to 60 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,760 change. Well, that's encouraging to 61 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,800 hear, although I think like you said it's still one or two as 62 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:29,400 we've got a while to go maybe before we meet a more reflective 63 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,880 in these board meetings. I mean like when you go into the 64 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,600 room one or two women is obviously good progress, but 65 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,040 it's not reflective of of the industry and like you said 66 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,360 alluded to which we will talk about later like maybe there's a 67 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:46,570 kind of. Lots of different reasons why we 68 00:03:46,570 --> 00:03:49,290 don't see women in positions of leadership, but also why we 69 00:03:49,290 --> 00:03:52,770 don't see so many women thriving in the industry in general. 70 00:03:52,970 --> 00:03:57,490 And so my first question is about let's talk about your 71 00:03:57,490 --> 00:04:01,010 experience 1st and then we'll move into talking about more 72 00:04:01,010 --> 00:04:04,210 generally. How has it been for you as a 73 00:04:04,210 --> 00:04:06,330 woman in in leadership in the music industry? 74 00:04:06,330 --> 00:04:08,410 Like what's your experience being? 75 00:04:08,410 --> 00:04:11,810 And it kind of sounds maybe like an obvious question, but are you 76 00:04:11,810 --> 00:04:15,050 aware of your gender? As part of your role. 77 00:04:15,050 --> 00:04:17,290 Do you know what I mean? Because I feel like this is 78 00:04:17,290 --> 00:04:20,410 something where if you were a man in this position, it 79 00:04:20,410 --> 00:04:22,850 wouldn't even really be a conversation and maybe you just 80 00:04:22,850 --> 00:04:25,330 glide through the day not really noticing your agenda. 81 00:04:25,370 --> 00:04:28,810 And I just wonder if it's something that, I mean, I kind 82 00:04:28,810 --> 00:04:31,810 of assume your answer didn't want to be, but I'm going to let 83 00:04:31,810 --> 00:04:34,450 you speak. So yeah, Do you think that 84 00:04:34,570 --> 00:04:36,170 you're do you? Are you consciously aware of 85 00:04:36,170 --> 00:04:38,570 your gender in your role? And how has it been your 86 00:04:38,570 --> 00:04:42,090 experience of being a woman in leadership in the music 87 00:04:42,090 --> 00:04:45,230 industry? Well, I think as a woman you're 88 00:04:45,710 --> 00:04:50,350 judged more on very different criteria to men. 89 00:04:50,590 --> 00:04:53,750 So there's a lot of kind of, yes, I'm aware of my gender, 90 00:04:53,750 --> 00:04:56,470 definitely. And I'm aware of how I interact 91 00:04:56,470 --> 00:04:59,670 with men in the industry, how I interact with other women in the 92 00:04:59,750 --> 00:05:02,470 industry. Simple things like wearing 93 00:05:02,470 --> 00:05:06,190 makeup or how you dress, it's a consideration. 94 00:05:06,190 --> 00:05:08,710 It's a factor that men don't have to consider that you might 95 00:05:08,710 --> 00:05:12,310 be judged according to what you wear and your appearance. 96 00:05:12,810 --> 00:05:16,290 I mean, I've been lucky to have a lot of male support. 97 00:05:16,490 --> 00:05:19,050 So when I was running for election last year, I had a lot 98 00:05:19,050 --> 00:05:21,930 of male supporters who are experienced men in the industry. 99 00:05:22,850 --> 00:05:25,050 That's been brilliant. But you know, the fact that I 100 00:05:25,050 --> 00:05:27,730 have to say I'm lucky to have had that in itself, you know, I 101 00:05:27,730 --> 00:05:31,810 check myself and think why? Why should I be lucky to have 102 00:05:31,810 --> 00:05:34,130 that support? I'm, you know, I'm perfectly 103 00:05:34,130 --> 00:05:38,010 capable of doing the job and I'm experienced myself, but I think, 104 00:05:38,290 --> 00:05:42,490 you know, there's probably been fewer female role models, so. 105 00:05:43,030 --> 00:05:46,510 Yeah, it has been a challenge. And it said, you know, you have 106 00:05:46,510 --> 00:05:50,350 to assert yourself and you have to make it clear that you are on 107 00:05:50,350 --> 00:05:53,070 an equal footing with male counterparts. 108 00:05:53,190 --> 00:05:55,270 It's not a given. It's not a given that people 109 00:05:55,270 --> 00:05:56,630 would just accept you as an equal. 110 00:05:56,830 --> 00:05:59,910 An equal, unfortunately. And what do you would you say is 111 00:05:59,910 --> 00:06:05,350 some of the key challenges in terms of that experience. 112 00:06:05,350 --> 00:06:07,590 So you've you've kind of mentioned a few of them being 113 00:06:07,670 --> 00:06:14,160 that you have to. Assert yourself and almost like 114 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,600 prove yourself before somebody will. 115 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,640 Accept that. You're capable of doing the role 116 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,720 as a woman. So for you, what would you 117 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,200 identify is that the key challenges around kind of that 118 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:31,720 experience? Well, I mean, I observe how men 119 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,160 in the industry act around other women and I think. 120 00:06:35,620 --> 00:06:39,260 When you observe it, it's, you know, it makes you paranoid. 121 00:06:39,260 --> 00:06:42,340 But not not just paranoid. I mean, there's a reason to be 122 00:06:42,340 --> 00:06:46,260 concerned. The language that I hear just 123 00:06:46,620 --> 00:06:50,500 used to describe women in senior positions is very different to 124 00:06:50,500 --> 00:06:53,060 the language that you hear to describe men in senior 125 00:06:53,060 --> 00:06:56,180 positions. So if a woman is strong and 126 00:06:56,340 --> 00:06:59,860 opinionated, you tend to hear a lot more negative language 127 00:06:59,860 --> 00:07:02,580 around that. It's not seen as a positive 128 00:07:02,580 --> 00:07:05,530 necessarily. I frequently hear women being 129 00:07:05,530 --> 00:07:08,730 described as mad and crazy, whereas you don't tend to hear 130 00:07:08,730 --> 00:07:11,050 that about men in leadership positions. 131 00:07:11,290 --> 00:07:16,650 Very frustrating women being dismissed and joked about in a 132 00:07:16,650 --> 00:07:20,970 way that men just aren't. So I think that you enter the 133 00:07:20,970 --> 00:07:23,810 room and you have to prove yourself. 134 00:07:23,810 --> 00:07:26,770 Or as if a man shows up to a board meeting in a suit, 135 00:07:26,770 --> 00:07:29,290 everyone assumes that he knows what he's talking about, which 136 00:07:29,290 --> 00:07:31,410 is very disappointing and depressing. 137 00:07:31,950 --> 00:07:34,350 But yeah, I feel like during the election process, I was 138 00:07:34,350 --> 00:07:38,230 constantly saying I've worked in this industry, not just in music 139 00:07:38,230 --> 00:07:41,910 but in the arts, for 20 years. And I've literally done this my 140 00:07:41,910 --> 00:07:43,830 whole career. I've worked for trade unions in 141 00:07:43,830 --> 00:07:47,470 the arts my whole career. But, you know, I was repeating 142 00:07:47,470 --> 00:07:51,070 myself and repeating myself because, you know, you just feel 143 00:07:51,070 --> 00:07:53,910 that there's a sense that you might not be considered as 144 00:07:53,910 --> 00:07:56,990 experienced as a man, that that you're up against. 145 00:07:56,990 --> 00:07:58,990 So yeah, that's really challenging. 146 00:07:59,430 --> 00:08:01,840 But I think. I was reflecting, I think since 147 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,840 I got the job, actually, I haven't encountered misogyny 148 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:09,200 myself directly, but I do witness it and we receive 149 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,760 reports of misogyny and sexual harassment at the MU. 150 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,320 So it's something unfortunately I'm constantly aware of. 151 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,360 And I did encounter some sexism during the election process 152 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,560 itself. So it's definitely out there and 153 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,160 I definitely have experienced it. 154 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:27,680 But I would say since I got the job so far I've I've had a lot 155 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,240 of support and that's been really good. 156 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,080 That is really, really encouraging to hear. 157 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,799 And so during that time, like you said when you did experience 158 00:08:36,799 --> 00:08:42,400 the sexism and misogyny like you, you come across as such a 159 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,080 confident person. And I basically was just 160 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,520 wondering and thinking about people listening to this, how do 161 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,920 you stay so confident and assertive? 162 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:55,760 You know, you've said like. I have this experience and I. 163 00:08:56,330 --> 00:08:58,810 You know, I can do this job. Like when you say it, I really 164 00:08:58,810 --> 00:09:02,850 believe you and I just wonder if you thank you. 165 00:09:04,770 --> 00:09:07,570 Well, you know what I mean. But it's like when someone says 166 00:09:07,650 --> 00:09:09,770 yeah, you're. Like, it's that I believe you 167 00:09:09,770 --> 00:09:13,050 that's authentic and true. And I'm just thinking of, 168 00:09:13,050 --> 00:09:15,330 especially some of the other conversations we've had I've had 169 00:09:15,490 --> 00:09:20,050 on this season about women feeling not able to say, not 170 00:09:20,050 --> 00:09:22,550 able to say. That their expertise in the way 171 00:09:22,550 --> 00:09:23,990 that you do. So I was just wondering if you 172 00:09:23,990 --> 00:09:27,070 had any kind of tips or advice or if there's something that you 173 00:09:27,070 --> 00:09:28,950 could share around. Have you always been that 174 00:09:28,950 --> 00:09:31,070 confident or is it something that's come over? 175 00:09:32,230 --> 00:09:35,710 Time. I think I present as being very 176 00:09:35,710 --> 00:09:39,110 confident and I I am confident in my abilities and I am 177 00:09:39,110 --> 00:09:41,310 confident that I can be cool in a crisis. 178 00:09:41,310 --> 00:09:44,950 So I think it comes with having dealt with a lot of crises. 179 00:09:45,870 --> 00:09:47,310 You know, there's always a challenge. 180 00:09:47,310 --> 00:09:48,990 There's always something that we need to deal with. 181 00:09:49,430 --> 00:09:53,350 And I'm probably a fairly kind of, I would say fairly relaxed 182 00:09:53,350 --> 00:09:57,470 in a crisis, kind of still smiling kind of character. 183 00:09:57,550 --> 00:10:01,470 I hope I am anyway. However, I would say that I do 184 00:10:01,470 --> 00:10:05,350 suffer with anxiety and I've had some sleepless nights when 185 00:10:05,350 --> 00:10:09,150 something's been going wrong at work like everybody else does. 186 00:10:09,470 --> 00:10:13,190 And I think that I, you know, there's some imposter syndrome. 187 00:10:13,190 --> 00:10:15,670 I think most women suffer with that, unfortunately. 188 00:10:15,830 --> 00:10:18,920 Probably more women do the men. Where you have that moment in 189 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:20,520 the middle of the night where you think this could all go 190 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,480 wrong. Do I know what I'm doing? 191 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,320 But, you know, yeah, I think my confidence comes with 192 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,400 experience. But also, I would say I was a 193 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:32,560 drama student, which also gives me a certain confidence about 194 00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:34,800 public speaking. I'm not afraid to stand up in 195 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:39,360 front of a room of people. That said, when I was really 196 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,880 heavily pregnant, I was supposed to be doing a reading at a 197 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,400 friend's wedding, and I was so heavily pregnant there was 198 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,080 really struggling to stand up for long periods of time. 199 00:10:48,330 --> 00:10:51,290 And so I've never had a problem with public speaking, but I had 200 00:10:51,290 --> 00:10:54,250 to stand up at this wedding, hugely pregnant, and I actually 201 00:10:54,250 --> 00:10:56,090 got up and I just said I can't do it. 202 00:10:56,250 --> 00:10:58,050 Can someone please get me a chair? 203 00:10:58,370 --> 00:11:01,570 And it's the only time I think that I've had that moment of, Oh 204 00:11:01,570 --> 00:11:04,130 my goodness, I'm actually not be able to go through with this. 205 00:11:04,130 --> 00:11:06,490 And it was obviously mortifying, but people were very 206 00:11:06,490 --> 00:11:08,810 understanding about it. But since then, I've had that 207 00:11:08,810 --> 00:11:12,050 little, you know, Jelly knees moment when I stand up to 208 00:11:12,050 --> 00:11:14,410 publicly because you think, what if I can't go through that with 209 00:11:14,410 --> 00:11:16,050 this? What if I just faint on the 210 00:11:16,050 --> 00:11:18,050 spot? Thankfully that hasn't happened 211 00:11:18,050 --> 00:11:21,690 to me. But yeah, you know, it doesn't 212 00:11:21,690 --> 00:11:24,810 stop the thought. So I yeah, I'm really confident 213 00:11:24,810 --> 00:11:28,210 and I love my job and I love the team of people that I work with 214 00:11:28,250 --> 00:11:30,050 and I have complete and utter faith in them. 215 00:11:30,050 --> 00:11:31,810 So I think that really helps as well. 216 00:11:32,090 --> 00:11:37,170 And I think, I don't know, I think women are quite good at at 217 00:11:37,170 --> 00:11:41,050 that kind of, you know, deferring to experienced team 218 00:11:41,050 --> 00:11:43,600 members. And you know, yeah, that gives 219 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,200 me confidence that when I've had a crisis, I've always had a team 220 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:47,800 of people around me that I can call on. 221 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,720 So I don't feel alone in the job. 222 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:51,280 And that's really important as well. 223 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,320 I think that if I could give anyone advice, it would be that 224 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,560 make sure you've got that team of people around you that you 225 00:11:56,560 --> 00:11:58,640 can rely on. So if you are in a tricky spot, 226 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,120 you've got someone that you trust on the end of the phone to 227 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:02,680 give you advice and give you support. 228 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,520 And that's really good tip. There's so much to be said for a 229 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:10,280 community, whether that's in your job and your team or your 230 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,010 friends or. A support network, whatever it 231 00:12:13,010 --> 00:12:16,130 is, I think you're right that that really helps knowing that 232 00:12:16,130 --> 00:12:19,570 you're not alone in whatever the challenges that you're facing. 233 00:12:20,090 --> 00:12:21,490 I can. Totally relate to the imposter 234 00:12:21,490 --> 00:12:24,290 syndrome thing as well. I mean, I've done interviews 235 00:12:24,290 --> 00:12:27,730 before where I've been revising from my own book that I wrote 236 00:12:27,810 --> 00:12:30,490 before because I'm doubting that I'd know the answers to the 237 00:12:30,490 --> 00:12:32,290 question. I think this is absurd, I wrote. 238 00:12:32,290 --> 00:12:34,690 The book. But you just have that moment 239 00:12:34,970 --> 00:12:38,130 that I don't know anything. It's not, yeah. 240 00:12:38,330 --> 00:12:41,220 The idea that. It's being able to recall the 241 00:12:41,580 --> 00:12:43,500 the right fact at the right moment. 242 00:12:44,100 --> 00:12:47,420 And you know, I'm sure you can and we do when we're on the 243 00:12:47,420 --> 00:12:50,100 spot. But yeah, it I'm sure there's 244 00:12:50,380 --> 00:12:54,060 scary moments for everybody. I just, I'd love to know if guys 245 00:12:54,060 --> 00:12:57,900 experience that, but a lot of them don't talk about it. 246 00:12:58,100 --> 00:13:01,540 So you imagine that they go through life just cruising 247 00:13:01,540 --> 00:13:03,430 along? Yeah. 248 00:13:03,950 --> 00:13:05,710 Yeah, that's a really good. Point whether we're just 249 00:13:05,710 --> 00:13:08,630 assuming that they do because like you said, you can be really 250 00:13:08,630 --> 00:13:10,470 confident. And I'm also a confident public 251 00:13:10,470 --> 00:13:12,870 speaker. I also was a drama student. 252 00:13:12,870 --> 00:13:16,670 So clearly we had the same training that put us in a 253 00:13:16,670 --> 00:13:18,510 position. Yeah, I can. 254 00:13:18,910 --> 00:13:21,350 I can stand on a stage and talk and same with like you know I 255 00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:24,030 lecture so I can talk to remember for the 500 students 256 00:13:24,030 --> 00:13:26,430 and I don't batter and I live there are other things that 257 00:13:26,510 --> 00:13:30,990 terrify me but that's not one of them And yeah, I do wonder if 258 00:13:30,990 --> 00:13:33,210 that. Affects women more but, and I 259 00:13:33,210 --> 00:13:36,530 do, my theory is that it does and that's because of the things 260 00:13:36,530 --> 00:13:40,730 that you said earlier which is the environment is not fostering 261 00:13:40,730 --> 00:13:43,850 that confidence because we're being chipped away out by these 262 00:13:43,850 --> 00:13:46,970 comments. Different languages used for 263 00:13:46,970 --> 00:13:50,650 different like and if the man behaves in a certain way is 264 00:13:50,650 --> 00:13:53,730 described differently and like you said, you feel judged for 265 00:13:53,730 --> 00:13:55,770 what you're wearing. And I just because they're not 266 00:13:55,770 --> 00:13:58,050 judged for what they're wearing and therefore they don't have 267 00:13:58,050 --> 00:14:00,890 those overthinking over analyzing. 268 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:06,920 Thoughts. So I think that the societal and 269 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:12,000 the industry really kind of behaviors and that structural 270 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:17,120 sort of sexism doesn't foster confidence in women in my 271 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:18,720 experience. We're kind of having to put back 272 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,240 on that. Yeah, and I think also. 273 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,040 I find criticism stays with me. I'm not somebody that takes 274 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,920 criticism particularly well. I can't help but take it really 275 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,560 personally. It's just my personality so and 276 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:34,120 I'm a people pleaser, so I want everyone to like me. 277 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:35,960 And obviously in a job like this, not everyone's going to 278 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:37,680 like you, not everyone's going to agree with you. 279 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,880 That's okay and sometimes you have to say things that are 280 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,080 controversial that people won't agree with. 281 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,280 But yeah, criticism I had once when I was in my 20s and I was 282 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:51,200 in a fairly senior job in a union and a male colleague said. 283 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,200 That they weren't sure that I had the the right level of 284 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:59,280 gravitas and that stuck with me. But I do think that was a 285 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,840 gendered comment. So I listened to a brilliant 286 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,120 podcast the other day and the advice was when you receive a 287 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,120 lot of criticism, which you will do if you're in the public eye, 288 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,200 and particularly if you're a woman in a kind of public facing 289 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,920 role, then you can filter out all of the criticism that's 290 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:16,480 gendered. And you might find that you've 291 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,840 actually not got a lot of criticism left if you filter out 292 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,630 anything that. Look, basically I I walk around 293 00:15:22,630 --> 00:15:25,030 sometimes thinking, would you say that to a man? 294 00:15:26,350 --> 00:15:28,950 And if you wouldn't say it to a man, then don't say it to me. 295 00:15:29,310 --> 00:15:32,670 And if I could filter out that criticism that's gendered, I 296 00:15:32,670 --> 00:15:36,390 think that would help a lot. That's such a good, such a good 297 00:15:36,390 --> 00:15:39,590 tip, because I think like you're saying when you filter out then 298 00:15:39,630 --> 00:15:42,350 and maybe there's good feedback left at the end, but there 299 00:15:42,350 --> 00:15:45,590 probably isn't that that much. And like you said, would you say 300 00:15:45,590 --> 00:15:47,750 that to a man? Probably not like the thing you 301 00:15:47,750 --> 00:15:50,220 said where. So true. 302 00:15:50,340 --> 00:15:54,780 Like words like crazy, bossy, bitchy, All these words. 303 00:15:54,780 --> 00:15:58,620 You don't say those things about a man and who might have behaved 304 00:15:58,620 --> 00:16:02,620 in the exact same way, or even more rude or or more assertive 305 00:16:02,620 --> 00:16:07,660 and you're like, oh, he's he's making fard house decisions. 306 00:16:07,660 --> 00:16:10,820 And then a woman would do the same thing and it's like, you 307 00:16:10,820 --> 00:16:13,940 know, she's reckless, like you said crazy. 308 00:16:13,940 --> 00:16:17,580 Or these different time knowledges which are so loaded. 309 00:16:18,940 --> 00:16:21,500 Well, I was just going to say also highly paid women in the 310 00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:24,860 music industry, you'd hear a bit of are they worth the money, 311 00:16:24,940 --> 00:16:27,180 Whereas you don't hear that about highly paid men in the 312 00:16:27,180 --> 00:16:29,460 industry. And we're still in a position 313 00:16:29,460 --> 00:16:32,100 where the three major labels are run by men. 314 00:16:32,380 --> 00:16:35,260 You know, it's still, there's still a significant imbalance 315 00:16:35,260 --> 00:16:38,140 there. And there's so much pressure for 316 00:16:38,460 --> 00:16:39,900 the women. You know, we mentioned earlier 317 00:16:39,900 --> 00:16:43,020 about you're the first woman to do something or or even the 318 00:16:43,020 --> 00:16:46,500 second woman to do, to be in a certain role or position. 319 00:16:46,500 --> 00:16:51,070 There's so much pressure not to. It up because it's not like 320 00:16:51,470 --> 00:16:54,150 because there's a different level of judgment and there's 321 00:16:54,150 --> 00:16:58,350 also just that kind of, I always think about like, you know, 322 00:16:58,350 --> 00:17:00,350 female president or Prime Minister or something. 323 00:17:00,350 --> 00:17:02,470 It's not the same because they're like as soon as they do 324 00:17:02,470 --> 00:17:04,310 something, it's like, well sure, women just can't do it. 325 00:17:04,470 --> 00:17:07,869 And you feel the pressure of your whole, you know, gender 326 00:17:08,430 --> 00:17:10,990 rather than if you are. I know. 327 00:17:11,349 --> 00:17:12,790 Yeah. So do you feel that? 328 00:17:13,550 --> 00:17:17,790 Yeah, definitely. I think anybody from a minority 329 00:17:17,790 --> 00:17:19,790 group feels that. And also there's 330 00:17:19,790 --> 00:17:23,869 intersectionality about it as well, unfortunately, I've 331 00:17:23,869 --> 00:17:25,910 definitely heard other colleagues in the industry say 332 00:17:25,910 --> 00:17:28,590 that. And it's the sort of Liz Truss 333 00:17:28,590 --> 00:17:31,070 effect, isn't it? Like this is going to set women 334 00:17:31,070 --> 00:17:35,230 back for a period of time, because if a woman seen not to 335 00:17:35,230 --> 00:17:38,910 have done a good job and yet you know how many men have we seen 336 00:17:38,910 --> 00:17:41,590 not not do a good job and yet somehow. 337 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:43,240 That doesn't set their gender back. 338 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,120 No one says, well men can't run companies because that man made 339 00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:50,160 a mistake. You know, it's yeah, it's very 340 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,920 targeted towards us, but it's the same goes for other minority 341 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,400 groups as well. And you know, representation of 342 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,480 women is getting better in the industry, but representation of 343 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,920 other minority groups isn't still not enough kind of global 344 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,840 majority people in in high profile positions or. 345 00:18:08,100 --> 00:18:11,860 People with disabilities or LGBTQ plus colleagues. 346 00:18:12,340 --> 00:18:15,900 So we still got a very long way to go as an industry, yeah. 347 00:18:16,580 --> 00:18:19,380 I completely agree. I think it's like a confirmation 348 00:18:19,380 --> 00:18:23,940 bias thing where it's like if we're already had this conscious 349 00:18:23,940 --> 00:18:28,780 or unconscious presumption in our minds because we grew up in 350 00:18:28,780 --> 00:18:31,700 a patriarchal society that tells you that women are should be in 351 00:18:31,700 --> 00:18:33,300 the kitchen and not in the green room. 352 00:18:33,740 --> 00:18:36,700 But then when a woman does something wrong it, it confirms 353 00:18:36,700 --> 00:18:38,900 that conscious or on conscious buyers. 354 00:18:38,900 --> 00:18:42,540 Which I think that's why it doesn't apply to men, because we 355 00:18:42,540 --> 00:18:47,220 already, even as women, we're programmed to believe that the 356 00:18:47,300 --> 00:18:50,020 man would do a better job. This is not something that is 357 00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:53,140 necessary. You have to unlearn all of that 358 00:18:53,140 --> 00:18:57,340 from society and from maybe even some generations like our group. 359 00:18:57,460 --> 00:19:00,900 I mean, my family is was predominantly kind of. 360 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,640 Organized and run by women. So I have this like 361 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:10,320 preconception that women are like super capable and not so 362 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:14,080 much on the man's side, but I have friends who it's going to 363 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,680 be around their parents and more traditional relationship where 364 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,200 the mum never worked and dad does all the DIY. 365 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,920 So they're like men are useful and women are lovely. 366 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:28,360 You know, like this is a whole categorize gendered 367 00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:31,040 categorization, which I think then. 368 00:19:31,550 --> 00:19:34,830 That's how the confirmation bias thing plays into when something 369 00:19:34,830 --> 00:19:39,550 like mistrust happens or or any woman makes like a wrong 370 00:19:39,550 --> 00:19:42,990 decision or that it might not even be that they made a wrong 371 00:19:42,990 --> 00:19:46,790 decision, but you know, it falls on them in the situation that 372 00:19:46,790 --> 00:19:49,830 it's like, Oh yeah, that's where the setback comes from. 373 00:19:50,670 --> 00:19:53,350 So there is a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure. 374 00:19:53,990 --> 00:19:55,470 So yeah, I wanted. To go back to something you said 375 00:19:55,470 --> 00:20:00,940 earlier about in the MU hearing. From your members about their 376 00:20:00,940 --> 00:20:05,220 experience as women in these kind of speech and also to just 377 00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:07,460 to confirm and kind of agree with you on the 378 00:20:07,900 --> 00:20:10,900 intersectionality of it, because we totally have to acknowledge 379 00:20:10,940 --> 00:20:13,820 that that's what you know, in this season we are focusing on 380 00:20:13,940 --> 00:20:19,220 the experience of women, but of course it's includes all women 381 00:20:19,220 --> 00:20:24,500 and we have to acknowledge and kind of work harder in a way to. 382 00:20:25,460 --> 00:20:28,060 Improve the situation, as you said, of other minority 383 00:20:28,060 --> 00:20:31,820 communities, whether that's people of color or disabled 384 00:20:31,820 --> 00:20:36,540 people or because that for me, you know, there's different ways 385 00:20:36,540 --> 00:20:39,220 and understanding of feminism and I don't really want to like, 386 00:20:39,220 --> 00:20:43,700 get into a whole theory of it. But when we're trying to be more 387 00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:48,140 inclusive, obviously that means everyone. 388 00:20:48,180 --> 00:20:49,980 I mean, it's obvious. To me, but it's not obvious to 389 00:20:49,980 --> 00:20:51,620 everyone. So that's why I've just wanted 390 00:20:51,620 --> 00:20:54,700 to kind of confirm for anyone who wasn't sure. 391 00:20:55,060 --> 00:20:57,380 Yeah. And so, yeah, can you talk a bit 392 00:20:57,380 --> 00:21:01,940 about what you've seen in your position in the musicians union 393 00:21:02,020 --> 00:21:06,220 and what the more general experiences of women in the 394 00:21:06,220 --> 00:21:12,060 music industry? Yeah, So my particular 395 00:21:12,060 --> 00:21:16,180 perspective, I suppose is female musicians or musicians who are 396 00:21:16,220 --> 00:21:20,690 from a gender minority, so. We we receive a lot of reports 397 00:21:20,690 --> 00:21:23,810 of sexual harassment. We during the Me Too movement, 398 00:21:24,450 --> 00:21:29,330 there was a lot of talk about When's Music's Me Too movement 399 00:21:29,330 --> 00:21:31,970 going to begin. So we thought, well, let's go 400 00:21:31,970 --> 00:21:34,410 out and survey our members about sexual harassment. 401 00:21:34,410 --> 00:21:37,970 And also we'll we set up a service so that anybody we 402 00:21:37,970 --> 00:21:41,330 started off with our members and then we expanded it so anybody 403 00:21:41,330 --> 00:21:44,890 working in the music industry could report instances of sexual 404 00:21:44,890 --> 00:21:47,850 harassment to us. And get some signposting, get 405 00:21:47,850 --> 00:21:49,850 some advice. We've provided legal advice to 406 00:21:49,850 --> 00:21:52,290 people. Basically what we try and do is 407 00:21:52,530 --> 00:21:55,530 give a survivor an idea of what their options are. 408 00:21:55,770 --> 00:21:58,130 So we had some training from Rape Crisis. 409 00:21:58,130 --> 00:22:01,450 You said the important thing is that the person who has 410 00:22:01,450 --> 00:22:05,650 experienced the harassment or abuse is completely in control 411 00:22:05,650 --> 00:22:08,210 of what they do next, because they were probably out of 412 00:22:08,210 --> 00:22:11,770 control in the in the experience when they experienced it. 413 00:22:12,150 --> 00:22:15,310 But you've got to make sure that they are in full control of what 414 00:22:15,310 --> 00:22:17,470 happens next and what action they decide to take. 415 00:22:17,470 --> 00:22:20,830 So it's very survivor led. So we try to give some advice on 416 00:22:20,830 --> 00:22:23,630 what people's options are and then they've got they can decide 417 00:22:23,630 --> 00:22:25,270 whether they want to go forward or not. 418 00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:29,070 And unfortunately a lot of people don't take complaints 419 00:22:29,070 --> 00:22:32,870 forward to the police in particular because the stats 420 00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:37,030 aren't great around, you know, actual convictions and it's such 421 00:22:37,030 --> 00:22:38,670 a difficult process to go through. 422 00:22:39,230 --> 00:22:41,670 But we've, yeah, we've had hundreds of reports. 423 00:22:42,070 --> 00:22:46,230 We're still getting probably a report every week of some form 424 00:22:46,230 --> 00:22:48,550 of sexual harassment. Obviously there's been a lot of 425 00:22:48,550 --> 00:22:52,070 online harassment, particularly during the pandemic when people 426 00:22:52,070 --> 00:22:53,390 weren't out there working. But I was. 427 00:22:53,590 --> 00:22:56,230 I was actually shocked how many reports we got during the 428 00:22:56,230 --> 00:22:58,790 pandemic. When people were in theory, 429 00:22:58,790 --> 00:23:01,230 sitting at home, they weren't out on the live circuit, they 430 00:23:01,230 --> 00:23:04,270 weren't touring. And I was also shocked at the 431 00:23:04,550 --> 00:23:07,550 extent of sexual harassment across every area of music. 432 00:23:07,550 --> 00:23:10,670 So it wasn't just in the studio, and it wasn't just at festivals. 433 00:23:10,670 --> 00:23:13,240 It was also. In orchestras it was also in the 434 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,400 theatre pits. So it was. 435 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,200 It felt like no workplace was entirely safe. 436 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,000 And I've just been reading today an article in the Guardian about 437 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,920 female composers. Again, you might think female 438 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,760 composers are primarily working from home. 439 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,600 Obviously they're working in studios as well, but again, 440 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,240 experiencing all sorts of inappropriate behavior. 441 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:38,400 So it unfortunately is really widespread and it's difficult 442 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,520 because. People don't report because 443 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,560 they're afraid that it might have an impact on their own 444 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,040 career. And sadly, that does happen. 445 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,760 So we do get reports where somebody says, well, they did 446 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,440 complain to someone at work, and then they found that male 447 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,400 musicians aren't booking them again for for work, because 448 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,400 you're relying not only on employers and engagers to book 449 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,000 you, but you're also relying on other musicians to book you. 450 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,840 So if word gets around that you're a troublemaker in 451 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,840 inverted commas, it can actually harm your career. 452 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,640 I hate to say this because I wouldn't want to discourage 453 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,960 anybody from reporting and I think if you have experienced 454 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,360 something inappropriate, please do reach out to us cuz we're 455 00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:17,520 there. We'll provide you with advice 456 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,480 and complete confidence. There'd be no obligation for you 457 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,640 to take any further action if you decide you don't want to, 458 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,640 but we're there to at least signpost some help. 459 00:24:26,980 --> 00:24:29,980 Also help musicians. I've got a service called Music 460 00:24:29,980 --> 00:24:33,780 Minds Matter and as part of that they've actually got specially 461 00:24:33,780 --> 00:24:36,580 trained counselors who are there to deal with reports of sexual 462 00:24:36,580 --> 00:24:38,460 harassment. So if you've experienced 463 00:24:38,460 --> 00:24:41,020 anything like that, there is. There are places you can go to 464 00:24:41,020 --> 00:24:43,060 get help and it's all in confidence. 465 00:24:43,460 --> 00:24:46,260 We've had one or two anonymous reports, but actually most 466 00:24:46,260 --> 00:24:49,700 people will report to us using their real name, but they do 467 00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:52,380 want confidentiality because they are afraid of the 468 00:24:52,380 --> 00:24:55,820 consequences. So we've had reports ranging 469 00:24:55,820 --> 00:24:58,600 from. A group of experienced session 470 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,400 players, all female, being booked to go and play with a 471 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,760 major artist. When they turn up, they're 472 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,440 basically given toy musical instruments and hot pants to 473 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,120 wear, so obviously wasn't as it wasn't a serious engagement. 474 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,440 They weren't expected to play their instruments, they were 475 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,280 just there to look a certain way. 476 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:20,120 We've had reports of labels kind of completely taking control of 477 00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:23,560 musicians lives, signing an artist, not giving them any 478 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,680 access to money. Providing them with 479 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,960 accommodation, dictating when they can eat, dictating when 480 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,320 they can go to the toilet, horrific. 481 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,320 I mean, it's like it crosses into coercive control. 482 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,080 We've had reports of rape, you know, which is obviously 483 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,880 completely horrendous. We've had reports of 484 00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:47,120 inappropriate touching, things that go on backstage, things 485 00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:49,600 that go on on tour and tour buses. 486 00:25:49,990 --> 00:25:54,190 So I'm very focused on women's safety and the kind of 487 00:25:54,190 --> 00:25:56,910 environments that women working because sometimes it comes down 488 00:25:56,910 --> 00:26:00,510 to not having appropriate changing facilities or the tour 489 00:26:00,510 --> 00:26:04,430 bus needs to make a stop at a toilet so that women can go and 490 00:26:04,430 --> 00:26:06,710 have some privacy to go to the bathroom. 491 00:26:06,710 --> 00:26:09,470 I mean, you'd think that this sounds standard, right? 492 00:26:09,790 --> 00:26:12,390 But unfortunately a lot of these environments are still male 493 00:26:12,390 --> 00:26:14,950 dominated, so. You've got men in in the 494 00:26:14,950 --> 00:26:18,510 decision making position and it's hard for women to talk 495 00:26:18,510 --> 00:26:22,110 about what they actually need. So yeah, I'm sorry to talk about 496 00:26:22,110 --> 00:26:25,870 such a grim subject, but it's very important and I'm glad that 497 00:26:25,870 --> 00:26:28,710 there is a an inquiry going on at the moment, a government 498 00:26:28,710 --> 00:26:31,990 inquiry into misogyny in the music industry because we need 499 00:26:31,990 --> 00:26:35,390 action and we need changes in the law so that freelancers have 500 00:26:35,590 --> 00:26:38,030 better protection. And the other thing I can 501 00:26:38,030 --> 00:26:41,070 mention is that there is a. An independent standards 502 00:26:41,070 --> 00:26:43,350 authority that's being established to look after 503 00:26:43,350 --> 00:26:47,630 broadcasting, music, theater, fashion, film. 504 00:26:47,870 --> 00:26:50,470 And it should be a place where people will be able to go to 505 00:26:50,790 --> 00:26:54,990 make a report and then have a an independent investigation. 506 00:26:55,350 --> 00:26:57,390 Because if you got two freelancers, they might be 507 00:26:57,390 --> 00:27:00,750 working on a project together and it's time limited and then 508 00:27:00,750 --> 00:27:03,190 they go away. And then who's responsible? 509 00:27:03,190 --> 00:27:06,510 If if a report's made, who's responsible for investigating 510 00:27:06,510 --> 00:27:08,050 it? Sometimes the employer or 511 00:27:08,050 --> 00:27:10,730 engager will just wash their hands because they say, well, 512 00:27:10,810 --> 00:27:13,770 you know, it didn't happen on our watch or we don't actually 513 00:27:13,770 --> 00:27:15,970 employ either of you, so there's nothing we can do. 514 00:27:15,970 --> 00:27:19,930 There's no HR process to follow. So when we're campaigning within 515 00:27:19,930 --> 00:27:22,610 the industry to also make sure that policies and procedures 516 00:27:22,610 --> 00:27:25,890 apply to freelancers as well as employed people, because it's 517 00:27:25,890 --> 00:27:29,290 much tougher if you're a freelancer you know and you feel 518 00:27:29,290 --> 00:27:31,730 like you're on your own. One of the reasons the union 519 00:27:31,730 --> 00:27:34,530 exists is so that freelance musicians aren't on their own. 520 00:27:34,940 --> 00:27:37,940 We're a collective of 33,000. We've got legal advice 521 00:27:37,940 --> 00:27:39,740 available, we've got support available. 522 00:27:39,740 --> 00:27:42,580 So you know, you don't have to feel like you are completely 523 00:27:42,580 --> 00:27:44,820 isolated. I think that's the thing, isn't 524 00:27:44,820 --> 00:27:46,380 it? And there's so much contact 525 00:27:46,380 --> 00:27:50,100 there, but that that's what the musicians union is there for and 526 00:27:50,100 --> 00:27:52,580 it's so good. I mean, I know it's not nice to 527 00:27:52,580 --> 00:27:55,300 talk about the things that people reporting and it's 528 00:27:55,300 --> 00:28:00,180 horrible, but it's so important to speak and the truth is that 529 00:28:00,180 --> 00:28:03,620 these things are being reported. And I think for some people 530 00:28:03,620 --> 00:28:06,140 hearing about the fact that these things are being reported 531 00:28:06,180 --> 00:28:11,860 might encourage them to do so report and and feel less alone. 532 00:28:11,860 --> 00:28:14,540 If these things have happened to you, you're not alone. 533 00:28:14,740 --> 00:28:18,820 It's happening, like you said, in every sector or of the music 534 00:28:18,820 --> 00:28:21,580 industry. And so actually I'm glad that 535 00:28:21,580 --> 00:28:24,740 you shared that because I think it would be really encouraging 536 00:28:24,740 --> 00:28:27,660 for some people to know that they're not alone. 537 00:28:27,660 --> 00:28:31,180 And also we're just generally us better understanding what the 538 00:28:31,180 --> 00:28:35,390 landscape is really like and in terms of, as you said, the 539 00:28:35,430 --> 00:28:39,030 safety and even things like you said about the toilet, sometimes 540 00:28:39,030 --> 00:28:41,350 it's that a woman hasn't been part of the decision making 541 00:28:41,350 --> 00:28:44,150 process like you said. So they the needs of the women 542 00:28:44,150 --> 00:28:49,150 are not known in a world where we were only making decisions 543 00:28:49,230 --> 00:28:52,150 based on a man's need. At that time, because there 544 00:28:52,150 --> 00:28:55,440 would have been a period of time where there weren't any women on 545 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,080 the tour bus, and so they didn't have to think about, well, what 546 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,160 about when a woman has a period? Like, you know, they just, it 547 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,800 was never a. Factor that you have to 548 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,200 consider. So that's why it's so important 549 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,000 to have these conversations and open up these discussions 550 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:17,040 because to make enable women to feel that they can voice their 551 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,560 needs and their concerns and then also that they heard and 552 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,770 that it's receptive. And I'm really glad that you 553 00:29:23,770 --> 00:29:26,850 pointed out to the different resources that are available and 554 00:29:26,850 --> 00:29:31,010 I'll make sure to link to all of those in the podcast details. 555 00:29:31,850 --> 00:29:34,650 So you kind of alluded to some of the things I want to kind of 556 00:29:34,650 --> 00:29:39,290 shift a bit to think about what what can we do to make the music 557 00:29:39,290 --> 00:29:43,970 industry safer and more inclusive for women and minority 558 00:29:43,970 --> 00:29:48,770 groups. You mentioned about policies and 559 00:29:49,090 --> 00:29:53,840 the music and misogyny report and and maybe some other things 560 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,760 that happening, which is really good progress. 561 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,840 So what? But for you, what do you think? 562 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,280 Do you have things that you're like, these are some things that 563 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:07,400 we could do that would just make a tangible difference to the 564 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,560 safety of women in the music industry. 565 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,760 And that's both in terms of like what can we do as a community? 566 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,200 And then also, what does like the industry and the government 567 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:17,760 policies? What? 568 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,150 What kind of things need to happen to make it data? 569 00:30:22,790 --> 00:30:26,630 I mean, I've got a very long wish list, so I warn you, but 570 00:30:26,950 --> 00:30:30,350 I've got five years in the job and you know, we're gonna try 571 00:30:30,350 --> 00:30:32,590 and tick off as many of these things as possible. 572 00:30:32,910 --> 00:30:35,150 So I mentioned changes in the law. 573 00:30:35,270 --> 00:30:38,710 So at the moment, third party harassment isn't something that 574 00:30:38,710 --> 00:30:42,030 you can make a claim about. So if you've got two freelancers 575 00:30:42,030 --> 00:30:45,320 working on a project. It should be possible for the 576 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,480 employer or engager in that position who's in the position 577 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,480 of power there, to actually be held accountable for anything 578 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,680 that happens on the job. Even if it's two independent 579 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,240 contractors, one harasses the other, it should be the engages 580 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,800 responsibility. So there's there's changes in 581 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,560 the law, changes to the Equality Act to make sure that 582 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,920 freelancers are properly covered, recognition that you 583 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,080 might have more than two protected characteristics. 584 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,160 That lead to discrimination, so it should be possible to take a 585 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,280 claim based on more than two characteristics. 586 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,120 So there's quite a lot of things like that that would make a 587 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:21,440 difference. Some of those things have 588 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,560 already been promised by the government, but they've not 589 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,640 followed through and actually changed the law yet. 590 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,280 So that's something we need to push them on. 591 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,120 Within the industry, I think there's a wider conversation 592 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,480 about safety when it comes to freelancers. 593 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,240 Things like thinking about how your female colleagues going to 594 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,870 get home at night, so. We have a lot of musicians who 595 00:31:39,870 --> 00:31:41,790 tour. So say you're on a theater tour, 596 00:31:41,790 --> 00:31:46,190 for example, and your expenses payments for accommodation and 597 00:31:46,190 --> 00:31:49,950 travel don't actually cover the cost of staying in a hotel and 598 00:31:50,270 --> 00:31:53,670 getting a taxi or getting a train, whatever. 599 00:31:53,950 --> 00:31:57,270 What you what you end up doing is taking decisions that that 600 00:31:57,270 --> 00:32:00,110 make you less safe, so you'll end up staying somewhere cheap. 601 00:32:00,110 --> 00:32:02,230 That's a really, really long way from the venue. 602 00:32:02,430 --> 00:32:04,190 Trying to get back there late at night. 603 00:32:04,190 --> 00:32:06,860 Maybe car sharing? Maybe trying to drive home 604 00:32:06,860 --> 00:32:10,020 through the night after a gig so that you don't have to pay for 605 00:32:10,020 --> 00:32:12,260 accommodation. So all of these things lead 606 00:32:12,260 --> 00:32:16,700 women to make less safe choices. I had a horrific story recently 607 00:32:16,700 --> 00:32:20,180 told to me by Freelancer involving, you know, finishing 608 00:32:20,180 --> 00:32:22,300 really late at night and then having to hang around in a 609 00:32:22,340 --> 00:32:25,570 multistory car park in the dark. These sorts of things. 610 00:32:25,650 --> 00:32:28,610 And I really feel very strongly that if you're employing or 611 00:32:28,610 --> 00:32:31,610 engaging somebody, then those kinds of things should be taken 612 00:32:31,610 --> 00:32:33,450 into account. You should be thinking through 613 00:32:33,650 --> 00:32:36,810 are they going to be safe in the workplace and have they got 614 00:32:36,810 --> 00:32:39,930 enough money to get home safely? Have they got enough money to 615 00:32:39,930 --> 00:32:42,090 book a decent level of accommodation? 616 00:32:42,410 --> 00:32:45,610 I think representation. So I think if we had a truly 617 00:32:45,610 --> 00:32:48,250 diverse industry and the decisions were being made by a 618 00:32:48,250 --> 00:32:50,770 more diverse group of people, I think it would be a safer 619 00:32:50,770 --> 00:32:53,440 industry to work in. As we've discussed, we've got a 620 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,720 long way to go. I think, you know, even within 621 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,880 the union, we've had feedback that if you're a black musician 622 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,600 and you can't speak to a black official about discrimination 623 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,320 that you've experienced, you know, is that a barrier to you 624 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,480 getting in touch with us and reporting something. 625 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,240 So we've got a lot to do, I think internally as well to make 626 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,120 sure that we're fully representative of our members 627 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,580 and the wider industry. Our committees need to be more 628 00:33:17,580 --> 00:33:20,260 diverse, for example, which is something we've been working on 629 00:33:20,260 --> 00:33:21,740 with. We're being really proactive 630 00:33:21,740 --> 00:33:24,780 about that. We've now established informal 631 00:33:24,780 --> 00:33:26,740 networks. We've got a network for 632 00:33:26,740 --> 00:33:30,260 musicians who experience racism. We've got a network for our 633 00:33:30,260 --> 00:33:34,620 LGBTQ plus members. We've got a women's members 634 00:33:34,620 --> 00:33:37,700 network, a disabled members network, and these are kind of 635 00:33:37,740 --> 00:33:41,220 very informal groups that led by members within those groups. 636 00:33:41,630 --> 00:33:44,230 And the idea is that they can actually come up with 637 00:33:44,230 --> 00:33:47,390 recommendations for us. And the more they experience 638 00:33:47,390 --> 00:33:51,470 working with us, hopefully we'll get to a position where there is 639 00:33:51,470 --> 00:33:53,830 trust there. They want to actually become a 640 00:33:53,830 --> 00:33:56,870 formal part of the community. They want to join a committee 641 00:33:56,870 --> 00:33:59,270 and they want to help influence MU policy. 642 00:34:00,470 --> 00:34:02,230 So there's things like that that we can change. 643 00:34:02,230 --> 00:34:05,550 I think more organizations looking at their board level 644 00:34:05,550 --> 00:34:07,950 representation. Making sure that when they 645 00:34:07,950 --> 00:34:12,670 recruit staff, they are really genuinely an equal opportunities 646 00:34:12,670 --> 00:34:14,830 employer. Thinking about the language in 647 00:34:14,830 --> 00:34:17,989 the job ad that you put out. So it's not exclusive, not 648 00:34:17,989 --> 00:34:22,350 putting barriers in place. So yeah, there's so much that we 649 00:34:22,350 --> 00:34:24,510 could do. There's a lot of work already 650 00:34:24,510 --> 00:34:28,989 happening and I and you can see progress, but it's still slow. 651 00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:31,469 People are very protective of their positions. 652 00:34:31,469 --> 00:34:35,100 It takes time for. To bring through more leaders 653 00:34:35,420 --> 00:34:40,460 from diverse backgrounds. So yeah, it's a fairly big 654 00:34:40,460 --> 00:34:45,139 ongoing project, but you know, there's kind of things that 655 00:34:45,139 --> 00:34:47,820 people can do immediately. So somebody phoned me, for 656 00:34:47,820 --> 00:34:50,940 example, and said, how can I make sure that I'm booking more 657 00:34:50,940 --> 00:34:53,659 diverse musicians? And I said, well, whenever 658 00:34:53,659 --> 00:34:56,860 you're booking freelance musicians, just just say to the 659 00:34:56,860 --> 00:34:59,020 fixer or whoever it is who's doing the booking. 660 00:34:59,260 --> 00:35:01,740 I want to see a diverse lineup, I mean. 661 00:35:02,340 --> 00:35:04,460 That's something that you can just instantly do. 662 00:35:04,460 --> 00:35:06,300 It doesn't have to be a long process. 663 00:35:06,580 --> 00:35:08,380 Just do it. You know you couldn't. 664 00:35:08,380 --> 00:35:10,820 It's not positive discrimination, it's positive 665 00:35:10,820 --> 00:35:13,540 action, making sure everyone has equal access. 666 00:35:13,780 --> 00:35:17,620 So yeah, I just, I feel frustrated at the rate of 667 00:35:17,620 --> 00:35:21,740 change, but I'm determined to try and push, push things 668 00:35:21,740 --> 00:35:22,900 forward a bit. Well. 669 00:35:23,020 --> 00:35:25,860 Now it's such a comprehensive answer, I feel like we should 670 00:35:25,860 --> 00:35:32,620 just let you crack on with your. Agenda because yeah, there's 671 00:35:32,620 --> 00:35:36,300 some really good and like you said, these are things that some 672 00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:39,020 things that will take time because as you say about the 673 00:35:39,020 --> 00:35:42,860 progress and diversifying boards and things like that. 674 00:35:42,860 --> 00:35:46,700 But there are also things that could happen tomorrow like we 675 00:35:46,700 --> 00:35:53,500 could change the law to make it easier to enforce rights and and 676 00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:56,460 like you said diversifying like a lineup. 677 00:35:56,500 --> 00:36:01,290 I think the data for like women and minority groups in like 678 00:36:01,290 --> 00:36:04,330 festivals and stuff is absolutely astonishing. 679 00:36:04,690 --> 00:36:07,370 Like, how can you? It's like when you say just ask 680 00:36:07,370 --> 00:36:09,970 for a diverse lineup. I just think it's really bizarre 681 00:36:10,530 --> 00:36:13,050 that you would organize a festival and put together your 682 00:36:13,050 --> 00:36:15,610 lineup and someone shows you even like the marketing person 683 00:36:15,610 --> 00:36:18,610 is like, here's the here's the flyer or whatever it is and you 684 00:36:18,610 --> 00:36:20,770 don't look it and think, oh, there's no women on here. 685 00:36:22,050 --> 00:36:23,530 Like it doesn't occur. I know. 686 00:36:25,180 --> 00:36:26,260 But you know why it doesn't occur? 687 00:36:26,260 --> 00:36:29,940 It's because most people who are booking are all men. 688 00:36:29,980 --> 00:36:32,420 So they're not thinking like that, unfortunately. 689 00:36:33,100 --> 00:36:35,820 And actually, there's been a new report, which I'm sure you've 690 00:36:35,820 --> 00:36:39,060 seen about use of algorithms in music streaming. 691 00:36:39,060 --> 00:36:42,420 And guess what? The algorithms tend to favor 692 00:36:42,420 --> 00:36:45,180 white men. So artificial intelligence, it 693 00:36:45,180 --> 00:36:48,460 just absorbs all of the bias that's out there on the Internet 694 00:36:48,460 --> 00:36:51,900 already and exists in society, and then they just perpetuate 695 00:36:51,900 --> 00:36:53,420 it. So. 696 00:36:53,740 --> 00:36:57,140 Yeah, it's it's very difficult. But I think as long as we've got 697 00:36:57,380 --> 00:37:01,220 if music venue is a majority but you know led by men, then we're 698 00:37:01,220 --> 00:37:04,620 going to still end up with more male fronted bands being booked 699 00:37:04,620 --> 00:37:07,260 to perform. Same goes for record labels, you 700 00:37:07,260 --> 00:37:11,100 know only diversity can bring the change that we want to see 701 00:37:11,740 --> 00:37:13,620 and as you say inclusions about everybody. 702 00:37:14,460 --> 00:37:18,420 So it's it's about older. People and younger people and 703 00:37:18,420 --> 00:37:20,740 it's about all the different protected characteristics that 704 00:37:20,740 --> 00:37:23,580 we have. So at the moment we're just not 705 00:37:23,580 --> 00:37:28,260 reflecting the diversity in the music industry in terms of kind 706 00:37:28,260 --> 00:37:31,700 of performers and musicians and creators within this, the more 707 00:37:31,700 --> 00:37:34,660 formal structures that we have in the trade bodies and the 708 00:37:34,940 --> 00:37:39,500 labels and the publishers, etc. So we'll get there though. 709 00:37:39,500 --> 00:37:42,690 We will get there, I think. So I think I feel quite 710 00:37:42,690 --> 00:37:44,650 motivated after this conversation actually. 711 00:37:44,690 --> 00:37:47,050 I feel like I'm. The energy for. 712 00:37:47,250 --> 00:37:50,690 You is going to happen. So before I ask you the last 713 00:37:50,690 --> 00:37:53,890 question, we've talked a lot about the musicians union in 714 00:37:53,890 --> 00:37:56,130 terms of the work that we're doing and help musicians, but I 715 00:37:56,130 --> 00:37:57,650 just wanted to give you an opportunity. 716 00:37:57,650 --> 00:38:01,610 Is there anything else that you want listeners to know about or 717 00:38:01,610 --> 00:38:06,650 anywhere they should go in terms of your website and things that 718 00:38:06,650 --> 00:38:08,290 you want to point them in the direction on? 719 00:38:08,950 --> 00:38:11,790 Well, one of the things we do, as well as providing advice and 720 00:38:11,790 --> 00:38:14,350 services to members, we provide legal advice. 721 00:38:14,350 --> 00:38:17,750 I think I mentioned those sorts of things and insurances. 722 00:38:17,910 --> 00:38:19,870 We also do a lot of campaigning work. 723 00:38:19,870 --> 00:38:23,790 So yeah, if anyone wants to check out our website, even if 724 00:38:23,790 --> 00:38:26,590 you're not a musician yourself, you can actually join for free 725 00:38:26,590 --> 00:38:28,670 as a supporter. So basically, if you're 726 00:38:28,670 --> 00:38:31,270 interested in music, if you love music, you can join as a 727 00:38:31,270 --> 00:38:33,190 supporter and we'll keep you in touch with all of our 728 00:38:33,190 --> 00:38:35,990 campaigning work. But we are very good at putting 729 00:38:35,990 --> 00:38:38,340 out calls to action, so. If there's something you're 730 00:38:38,340 --> 00:38:41,500 passionate about, for example, ending sexual harassment in the 731 00:38:41,500 --> 00:38:44,860 music industry, on the campaigns page of our website you can see 732 00:38:44,860 --> 00:38:46,860 information about writing to your MP. 733 00:38:46,940 --> 00:38:49,780 We provide template letters so you can do that really easily. 734 00:38:49,860 --> 00:38:53,580 We also have calls to action, like signing petitions, So if 735 00:38:53,580 --> 00:38:57,220 you want to get active and you want to help, then we've always 736 00:38:57,220 --> 00:38:59,780 got things up on our website that you can do. 737 00:38:59,820 --> 00:39:02,260 Yeah, so that would be the first port of cool I think for anyone 738 00:39:02,260 --> 00:39:05,220 interested, great. Well, hopefully people are 739 00:39:05,220 --> 00:39:09,350 feeling is and. Round up as I am by what you've 740 00:39:09,350 --> 00:39:11,710 been talking about and they go to the website and check out all 741 00:39:11,710 --> 00:39:14,590 of this amazing work that you're doing. 742 00:39:14,990 --> 00:39:18,070 So thank you. My last question, which I'm 743 00:39:18,070 --> 00:39:23,790 asking everybody on this season, is, can you share with us a 744 00:39:23,790 --> 00:39:30,510 favorite female Music Maker of all time ever and also someone 745 00:39:30,550 --> 00:39:32,830 that you're appreciating currently? 746 00:39:33,030 --> 00:39:34,990 I know it's a tough question, so. 747 00:39:35,620 --> 00:39:39,500 Well, all time ever, I'm going to say skin from skunk Anansie, 748 00:39:39,580 --> 00:39:43,500 because when I was a teenager I was absolutely obsessed and I 749 00:39:43,500 --> 00:39:45,980 think she was just brilliant, kind of. 750 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,880 You know, so different from other female artists that were 751 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:54,320 around at that time, like with that level of success and just 752 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,320 yeah, just fueled all of my teenage angst in the best 753 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,800 possible way and artists that I'm listening. 754 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,600 Well, Arlo Parks is one of my recent faves. 755 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,880 I completely love Arlo Parks, so she's great. 756 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,200 There's a bang called Daughter that I really love as well who 757 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,520 are female. Yeah, brilliant. 758 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,210 So that's just a couple. That I've picked. 759 00:40:16,770 --> 00:40:18,370 Thank you. Well, that's the thing. 760 00:40:18,370 --> 00:40:20,370 There are so many. And I think it's just important 761 00:40:20,530 --> 00:40:24,050 to what I'm making a playlist basically of everyone's answers 762 00:40:24,050 --> 00:40:26,970 so listeners can go and check out if there are people you 763 00:40:26,970 --> 00:40:29,570 haven't heard of before or the legendary ones. 764 00:40:29,570 --> 00:40:31,690 Usually it's like, yeah, I haven't listened to them for 765 00:40:31,690 --> 00:40:34,130 ages. So we'll put together a little 766 00:40:34,130 --> 00:40:37,370 playlist to celebrate some women in the music industry who are, 767 00:40:38,010 --> 00:40:40,930 as I said in the beginning, usually pioneering because. 768 00:40:41,540 --> 00:40:44,820 Since there's not that many, it's quite easy to be a 769 00:40:44,820 --> 00:40:47,780 pioneering woman in these industry, in the sense that 770 00:40:48,540 --> 00:40:51,140 you're quite often the first person or the second person to 771 00:40:51,140 --> 00:40:58,980 be doing something hitting a threshold or being the most well 772 00:40:58,980 --> 00:41:01,820 known female with that genre or something. 773 00:41:02,300 --> 00:41:04,140 Because there's not that many, but. 774 00:41:04,660 --> 00:41:06,980 Thank you so much Naomi. It's been a real pleasure to 775 00:41:06,980 --> 00:41:10,900 talk to you today and it's been honestly really insightful. 776 00:41:10,940 --> 00:41:14,060 And I really do hope that listeners go and check out the 777 00:41:14,060 --> 00:41:16,620 website and we're amazing what we're doing and get involved in 778 00:41:16,620 --> 00:41:21,780 the campaigns and and we'll be right there with you on your 779 00:41:21,780 --> 00:41:25,340 future wish list of hopefully making things safer and more 780 00:41:25,340 --> 00:41:27,500 inclusive for everyone in the music industry. 781 00:41:28,500 --> 00:41:29,700 Brilliant. Thank you. 782 00:41:29,700 --> 00:41:32,660 Thanks for having me. Anyway. 783 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,240 Thanks for listening, and if you enjoyed this episode, please 784 00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:40,120 like, share and subscribe.