Hello and welcome to whose song is it anyway.
I'm dr. Haley boscia and for this
special season of the podcast focusing on women in the music
industry I'll be your host. So, hi Vic.
Thanks so much for coming on. The Whose Line Is It?
Anyway, podcast today it's a pleasure to have you and I
really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule.
I know you're doing a PhD and I've been there so I can imagine
on top of everything else. You're very busy woman.
So can you tell our listeners who you are?
And what you do in the music industry?
Well, thank you very much for asking me to participate.
It's real, a real privilege and yes, sir, my name is Vic Bain.
I've worked, I've worked in various parts maybe most part of
the music industry over the past, 25 years for the past four
years. I've been really focused on
diversity in music and that sort of takes three main strands,
really. So you mentioned my PhD, I do a
lot of research in this area because it's all about good
quality evidence and then I do a lot of sort of not-for-profit
charity. Look and that involves running
an organization. I set up called the F list for
music, as well as my work with the independent Society of
musicians. And then I sort of squeeze in
some paid work to pay for it, all doing various bits of
business or diversity Consulting.
Really my background for many years has been with membership
organizations. I was previously Chief exec of
what was then called the British Academy.
Adam of songwriters composers and authors.
So yeah, that's more, you know, more running music businesses.
Say that wasn't very pithy, but that's essentially what I do.
There's so much to unpack. There was a for more recently
since that's the now called the Ivar's Academy, if they're
wondering, what's the? I don't even know.
That's the guys name yet baskar. Yeah, much, much longer.
So they've had they've rebranded but there's still awesome.
Okay, so much to unpack there. But what's great is that you
haven't That breadth of experience, probably you found
informs your research. Now to know what I mean.
You kind of like you've seen the music industry from different
angles, which is so valuable. So let's begin with the F list.
Can you? I assume that lots of our
listeners given the topic do know about the effortless?
But let's assume that some people might not.
And can you tell us a bit about what that is?
And also why you started it? Yes.
So so beautifulest Music, directory is essentially a
directory of female and gender. Expansive, musicians, who are
based in the UK? We have nearly 6,000 listings
now and women can go and create their own listing.
And that means that they are visible, they are findable to
the to the music industry so that they can get commission,
they can get booked, they can find management, musicians can
find them. Fans can find them radio DJ
searching for new Talent, you know they can just be found and
that visibility I think is so important because I think I was
just a bit tired of reading radio newspaper interviews are
hearing the radio interviews of fair mainly Festival promoters
saying, well you know we can't pick women because we can't find
any they're not there women, don't play guitars women.
Don't play in bands, you know, all of this sort of rubbish.
And so I created this directory to make the women visible and
hey you know lo and behold there are well there's probably two or
three times as many female musicians out there, but the
ones who've created listings, the others nearly 6,000 now
amazing. And if someone wants to, if
they're listening and they're like I want to get on the list,
what do they do? Look at the the website after
this music dot U k-- and create a free list.
You know, just take, take a few minutes, they can put all of
their contact details up all of those socials, they can embed up
to five different types of music feeds.
They can categorize themselves from skills that, you know,
whether they're an instrumentalist, a producer, or
performer in different genres different instruments, there's
dozens of those on location. So that they're, you know,
there's a really sophisticated search function.
Yeah. But it It's just free so they
can they can join a joined the community, I love it.
Thank you. Just really interesting.
Lots of our work crosses over and actually I am created
basically a parallel directory called World IP women because of
the exact same thing. I was so fed up of going to
conferences in law because obviously haven't my background
is Law and there being only not only with men on the panel's but
only men in the room and sometimes be the The women and
I've got like, all these hilarious, but they're not
hilarious, but you've got to laugh like pictures on my phone
of me, sat in the back of a conference and just a sea of
white male heads, and it's just like this subset.
And after a while, it's really started to grind at me and I
went up to I've even like confronted people not
confrontationally, but been like, scuse me, why don't you
have any women on this panel? Why are there?
No women here and they said the exact same thing.
We don't know any women in law, you don't know any women in
intellectual property give over I work at University.
I know that 60% of law candidates are women, so if
they're not coming through, there's a problem.
And also there's a because there obviously are where to get onto
the issues. But anyway, so we had a really
similar parallel experience where then I was like, fine,
I'll just create a deck directory.
Here's a big, long list of thousands of women doing this
job, all different variations of this job, all across the world,
don't give me that shit. You know what I mean?
It's like, That all women doing it.
So I completely appreciate your motivation because I had the
same thing and I think that you'd like to said visibility is
so important and it's just so inarguable.
They're like well there are women doing this, so you need to
make a bigger effort. So let's get into some of the
reasons why beyond the fact that people are think that there
aren't any women, we might be seeing because I think there's a
lot of parallels. Like I just said you know the we
see lots of women study law but not a lot of Women being
partners of law, firms for instance, and obviously in the
music industry, there's really similar trajectory of like women
and girls interested in doing music at schools.
And then coming through the numbers, just drop off.
So in your research and your experience, how have you found,
what is what I'm saying? True.
And what do you think some of the reasons are for that?
Yes, it's absolutely true. So in every sector is, if you
know described, we see what's, you know, what's The vertical
hierarchy in in music. We see, you know, that that
educational pipeline where it's more girls than boys, who study
GCSE music. It's about exactly equal for a
levels. So though until just the past 22
years, for many years girls were getting better grades at a level
music then then boys it's just about even evened up now and at
University level it emits a mixed picture depending on the
discipline of music. But overall, including every
music related subject, including audio, engineering, and
business, and performance up until certainly open to a 20-18
was the last time I had data, 44% of Music graduates, were
women. So, slightly less than that,
than half but still, you know, a good, a good amount and it is
increasing every Yeah, and yet when it comes to professionally
working certainly as a musician, the women just disappear office
of national statistics data shows that over the past 10 or
12 years. It's about, you know, it's about
25% of those who are reporting that their primary income is, as
professional musician about 25% or women.
And when it comes to being signed by labels signed by
publishing, Companies. Well it's 20% of music, label,
rosters, or women, 14% of writers.
So it's you know we can see this vertical hierarchy.
So the more the more status that position has the fewer women are
participating in that. Why do we see that?
It's uh, it's complicated. There are many reasons.
I think a lot of it goes back to gendered social roles.
So women are funneled into or encouraged to follow certain
career paths. Men are encouraged to, you know,
go in other directions. But you know what, we see and
again, this is an every sector. But we see the roles that women
do or not as well, paid. Not as well-regarded, don't have
the same status of women, predominate in music therapy, in
music teaching that, you know, those sorts of nurturing caring
rules, which Nobody seems to value and the men are encouraged
to, you know, be rock and roll and get on the road and be you
know, be professional musicians, specialize in you know, using
music technology and certain so on and we have similar parallels
in the business side but yeah it's more extreme with
musicians. Yeah.
Okay so there are kind of two main things that you've touched
on like the pay Gap. We can I'm summarizing and
gender roles and I guess Those are like I said, there's lots of
issues and we don't have all day, so we actually cannot cover
them all. But I think those are two key
and quite interesting things to talk about and I've just read
this book called everyday. Sexism have you read it?
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah.
I cried, I cried. It was so, and it's nothing as
it women when you hear these stories from these women and
probably it's been the same experience.
You maybe when you've been interviewing women for your PhD
like, and talking to people, it's not surprising.
A lot of the things but it is shocking and it was just the
over. But I would really recommend it
to anyone who's listening because it I love the way she
supports everything. She says with evidence, and
she's also telling the stories of women.
But one thing that was the saddest part for me, was this
stories of the children. Seven year old girls being like
no women can't be Pilots. Is there not as clever as boys,
that sadboys job. And you're just like, why?
Why have we done this? Why are we done this to this
girls? Like and it's so Insidious.
It's so ingrained in them consciously and subconsciously
from the minute. They're born that this gender
role exists. Even even today and it's just
honestly, it was devastating. I fully cried when I listen to
that book. So for the Her rolling that
leads to women. It's not just like women, not
choosing that job but also Society, not inviting that women
into that role as well, isn't it?
It's like a push and a poor situation.
So then if you can expand a little bit on that topic from
your research and what you found around, gender rolling in music.
Well, I'm quite a way through my data collection.
Phase of my PhD. So I've done 35 interviews with
women so far, I've got another 15 all lined up and they're real
deep, Dives, the like to our dives into their career Pathways
and it's, you know, it's just very interesting, the power of
families and parents and you know, social upbringing,
education and lightened. Teachers is a real help.
If you don't have that, it's it's more difficult.
It's, you know. So if women want to do things,
which are seen as masculine. Especially working in studios or
producing their own music or being anything other than, you
know, the beautiful singer. Then women have a real hard
time, overcoming those stereotypes or, you know, all
composing and writing music, which is, you know, really,
really seen as having masculine qualities.
So, you know, there's a lot of, yeah, lot of stereotyping, a lot
of sexism, a lot of discrimination to overcome to.
State in those worlds. And what?
What I'm really fighting quite interesting, is the women who
are women, who are really successful and incredible
musicians invariably or having to step outside the label system
and do it themselves and they are, you know, weighing weighing
up the pros and cons of that. But are you certainly in the
group that I'm speaking with? Randomly as well, you know,
people who are think, you know, are not not talking to each
other or making the decision to be independent, because the the
sexism and the control and the Prejudice within the labels
system is an acceptable to them. And that's really important
because the is a talked in, I did some research published some
research, at the end of 2019 called counting the music
industry, where I looked at, you know, who would the labels
investing in? Who were the music publishing
companies? Resting in, you know,
significant amount of money and support and it wasn't many
women. You know, that's really
important because they can, you know, these these labels are
sort of selling themselves as the research and artistic
development engines of the music industry and yet, they're
unacceptable environments to many women who are then choosing
to step outside of that system and do it themselves to retain
control. These are women who had played
on number one, albums told around the Old, I had
significant success when all sorts of awards and yet of said
this is not going to work for me.
I need to you know maybe take a financial hit but do it, do it
myself. So there's massive barriers to
women's career progression. Yeah, so the point where they're
like, I'm not even going to play this game.
I'm gonna go and make my own Arena over here.
Yeah, as it really, really interesting Insight.
So thinking about those women that you're sort of describing
Out. If you had to think of like, are
there any common threads or themes in their kind of
personality? I'm trying to think about is
when we say things like, you know, gender Norms are a problem
and like heteronormative issues. It's so difficult I think to
it's quite a lofty concept and it's difficult to be like
there's no. So if you do these three steps
everything will be fine. So I'm wondering if These women
who have succeeded and have overcome to certain extent.
Some of these challenges have a common kind of trait, whether
it's like, rebelling against the system, or how did they feel
empowered beyond the gender Norm?
Do know what I mean? Well, I've got a, I've got a
good while yet to go on my PhD analysis, you know, I need to
spend a good six months full-time analyzing, you know,
to really be able to pull out all of all of this red.
But it seems to me so far that having a nice middle-class
upbringing Alps it just it just just do see you know to have
that good music, education tabs, a good stable you know support
some money to help you through those initial few years, maybe
some confidence so that that seems to be a thing which I need
to explore lot more, you know, having a supportive partner.
If you were in a relationship have And somebody who supports
you because that, you know, I have spoken to a few women who
they literally had to get divorced, you know.
Wow. And if their home environment
wasn't wasn't supportive especially if they choose to
have children. You know a lot lots of women.
I'm speaking to are like children, it's career suicide.
So that's a pretty major issue for women in the business as
well as performers, you know, and a lot lots of women, you
know, I don't ask them well, you know, how does one succeed in
the music industry and everybody does.
Say, well hard work persistence tenacity, you know, all of the
order of these qualities. But as Laura Bates, would say in
another one of her books, which is brilliant, which is don't fix
the women. Hmm, fix the system.
You know, you can be as tenacious as you want, but if
you are if you don't have economic resources or you know,
support support at home, you know, you you're still not going
to be able to break down some of those barriers.
Hers. So most of the women I'm
speaking to have been have achieved success and been very
successful. But I'm also speaking to women
who've struggled struggled struggled and maybe their career
hasn't you know been quite what they wanted it to be or what it
should have been because the, you know, the barriers in their
personal lives have been too much.
There's also been a couple of women who have told me that,
their too traumatized to speak with me which has been really,
really sad. And a remarkable number of my
interviewees undergoing therapy remarkable number.
I have to have to say, you know, if and hugely successful
award-winning people. So it's and I have to say a
naught, you know, all of them. All of my interviews as well.
They're all absolutely confidential.
Of course. And nobody's, you know, I'll
talk about the experiences in general, but nobody will be
identifiable. So, you know, I'm being told
about a lot of Jihu. Yeah.
Horrifying experiences. Lots involving outright misogyny
and sexual harrasment of varying degrees of severity and as well
as a lot of our, what I call Financial abuse.
Yes, was so it's, yeah. It's quite it's quite the
powerful process I can imagine. I think it's really important to
recognize what you said about the we can because when I was
thinking of like, what are these traits, I'm trying.
Trying to understand the picture a bit about. how to overcome the
gender Norm as a challenge but also obviously there are a
barrage of challenges and so when you say coming from a
middle-class family with support at home is so important to
recognize because as he said, even if you had were all of
those things, the most hard-working woman in the
country, you might have more barriers than someone who
actually is also working hard but maybe not as hard as you but
they have Financial backing or you know started this Started
the race ahead of you. And so, as it's a really
important point that you've made that when I'm talking about
these traits, I'm just trying to understand if there are any
hidden Solutions in their of like how and people, that's what
people tend to ask, isn't it? Like, what, how do you become?
Like I said, how do you get successful in the music
industry? But there's, there's all the
barriers you start with. So your ethical cultural,
gender, sexuality, all of economic circumstances, and
then, as you said, Ed especially as a woman in the music industry
or say as a trans person or quiz person.
You might then be faced with traumatic experiences in the
music industry that then become another barrier or even a
setback. One of the interview is on this
podcast season talks about an experience of sexual assault
which led to her not leaving the house for a number of years and
obviously that affected her life and her well-being, but
obviously also her career. So that then be as you said
becomes Another barrier and I think it's really eye-opening
what you said about the fact that so many of your
interviewees are going through therapy because of the trauma,
that can be the music industry. So yeah, I'm just, I'm just
still processing what you said. I don't even have a question.
I was like this is horrific. I'm definitely looking at the
enabled the enablers as well. You know, my research question
is looking at Women's careers in the music industry but Looking
at the enablers as well as the barriers.
So I, you know. So I am really, you know,
exploring with with people what has helped what has helped and
another more positive thing which is emerging very strongly.
In fact, is there are there are powerful Gatekeepers and mentors
out there and for many women and music.
Those people are men because it's not all men and we have
some really good guys out there. There who are using the position
of power and influence and experience to really help women.
So that's a joy to know and you know, is the real, you know,
it's a, it's a silver lining in what, you know, in what can you
know, sometimes feel feel like a very, very dark cloud so that
you know that I would. Yeah.
Definitely, you know give a big shout out to all of the good.
Guys out there, who would hear what, you know, doing the right
thing for the right, the right reasons.
Well, in fact, and the right reasons are to have a more
creative music industry, you know, creativity is in, you
know, so many places. And if you are discriminating
against holds waves of society, then you're cutting yourself off
from better for more for more creativity more.
Nativity means better songs being written and produced and
performed more, exciting music and more diverse lineups and
more at the end of the day, more music sales, more music,
straight streaming more ticket sales, you know, it's a win-win.
So for but you know for people in the music industry to have
these prejudices and discriminate especially against
women is doesn't make business sense and yeah it To make this
is 50% of the world. Like, if you just because also,
it's when you say, like, more success in creativity, there's
so many layers to that, isn't there?
There's like the song itself and then there's also like, how many
people that song will resonate with if it's made by somebody of
the gender of half the world? I love that.
That's really encouraging to hear about the Allies.
I'm wondering if there are people because, you know, what's
really interesting, when I look at the data on who listens to
this podcast in the first two seasons, it was about about
50/50, but sometimes majority female over male and then a
small percentage of non-binary or people who didn't specify
their gender and this season. So far, there's been more people
who said that they are male, listening, rather than female,
which is so encouraging. I know I really happy about it.
So thank you so much to the listeners who are listening and
I, so for those people in particular, what makes a good
Ally? Do you think or how do they, you
know? I think it's just some Couraging
words basically around being a good Ally, what that might look
like because if some people I think are Keen to listen because
they're not sure like should I be doing?
What should I be doing? Like I'm on your team, what
should I do? Well, I think UNIF amuse
accompanies. They can start by looking at the
data within their own organization and seeing if there
are any gaps now we are getting were making strides within the
workforce but perhaps More on the entry level positions than
it management ranks. So therefore, you know, in most
music businesses, they need to be focusing on retaining and
developing their female and gender, expansive, people within
the workforce, going up the ranks vertically, but for most
music businesses which have artistic rosters could be agents
management companies Publishers record labels or So, you know,
event programming, they simply need to sign and book more women
because that's where the huge huge gap is, you know, if 80% of
signed artists are men 86% of signed signed writers, certainly
in 2019, they need to do something about that.
That's, you know, absolutely ridiculous and as well as, you
know, having a moon about ever had those statistics.
I am a very solution orientated, person, and that That's why I
set up the F list because there is a there is a solution.
You want to know where female Talent is get.
Have a look, have a look there and I tell you the music is
incredible. Yeah, great.
I think that's really because good to have some practical kind
of steps as well. You touched on something else
that I want to ask you about which is the pay Gap and I dunno
if you want to share, if you've got any kind of nuggets and
statistics are for the top of your head.
And experience that you've gauged from the women that
you've interviewed around pay. But also my main question, which
I'm really Keen to ask you. And also everyone is because
sometimes people say to me, there isn't a pay Gap and I'm
too busy being angry to formulate a coherent answer.
So what do you say? When people say there is if
someone says well there isn't a pay Gap its disputed.
What's your response that disputed?
I you know I I mean, all of the so much research which which you
no doubt, delves into this, the gender pay Gap reports that
under the equalities act, the government has to, you know,
publicize all of the companies that employ over 250 people in,
as we all know, we all know about about that.
There's only about a dozen companies in the music industry
or that big being an industry of micro businesses.
But you know there are there 12. And I've been tracking them and
analyzing every company which falls falls in that bracket and
the, you know, and it's and it's two things are getting slightly
better. So work at kind of about 15 or
16 percent that all of the men and those organizations are
compared to all of the women no matter what role they do, the
men are in higher-paying jobs back to.
What I was talking about that, the roads that meant Do you are,
you know, considered more valuable.
So there is a pay gap on the hourly hourly rate still, Which
is higher at higher than the national average.
The really interesting thing about those about those pay
gaps, is it also you know it also reveals the the vertical
hierarchy. So, so tell you in quartiles,
how many men and women are in each of those organizations?
And there's this hierarchy women and the lower-paying roles but
the bonus pay. Gaps are my goodness me?
Yeah, absolutely. I watering eye-watering see if
you look at, you know, organizations such as AEG and
and Live Nation, it's more men than women are paid bonuses.
And, you know, and in some organizations and some years,
the men are paid 60 percent more.
So the evidence is there that, you know, and then people say
are but it's not for the same jobs and blah, blah blah, you
know. But who is saying that, you
know, who's deciding that one role is more valuable than
another, you know, and women who specialize in marketing and PR
human resources or is, you know, executive assistants, those
worlds are not deemed to be as valuable as Finance or Tech who
decides that, you know, we did we do as a society.
So there's that evidence with the government pay Reporting,
but lots and lots of economic transactions in the music
industry is totally cloaked and hidden, you know, it's the vast
majority of people working in music will either be
self-employed or work for micro businesses and they don't have
to report in in that way. And I've experienced pay
discrimination in my career. And most of the women, I'm
speaking to in my PhD interviews are reporting this, including
oceans like well you know definite definitely as musicians
finding out somehow that you know doing doing Festival gigs
and so on that they're being paid a lot less than the mailed
bands and musicians other similar level.
But even things as Extreme as women playing in bands and
finding out that the deal they are on from the record label is
worth less than the men in the same balance.
Fight for finding that out, you know, and then with a complain
about it. So what so that you know, so
they're treated less valuable e so that you'd have really needs
to be a lot more transparency because when there is
transparency like there isn't this you know really big
companies then all of a sudden the companies have to take note
because they know it damages their reputation, they might not
care and clearly they don't Morally, but reputationally may
be old, but encourage them to go to go in the right in the right
direction. So I you know I would definitely
like to see the pay Gap. Reporting requirement to be
significantly lowered as it is in some, some some other
countries to maybe, you know, 50 or 20.
I think would probably build be more useful in music.
But also, how about having some transparency around record deals
that would help? We got to think of other For the
ways of making you know if making this date this data.
I mean I can remember asking PRS for music years ago.
Oh you know we know that I think at the time it was like fifteen
percent of their of their over 100,000 members only 15% at that
time. I think it's gone up to maybe 17
or 18 percent. Now of their members are women.
I said, so what percentage of the, if the money's that are
collected, what percentage of that goes to women?
Owen. Because I was interested to see
whether it matched, you know, or whether the women were you know
if they were only at the time, 15% would they only being paid
10% of the income or was it higher?
You know I suspected it was lower in you know in that
woman's Works weren't being performed and exploited the same
level and I was told categorically that that
information was too sensitive. Which indicated, to me that day
in amazing is much lower. There was a problem so you know
will be interesting for record labels to say.
Okay, so you know, 20% of our rosters or women you know, and
yeah what purse, what percentage of the if the income you know
and investment yet. Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. You know, so if women were on
lesser deals. Yeah.
How much, how much money was being invested in, you know, in
terms of front deals, Information like that, we could
really see how it, you know, how much of a structural problem
there is because I'm talking to individuals who are, you know,
who are telling me about the, you know, the financial
discrimination that they have faced and you know that they
just find out about you know, sometimes unintentionally find a
find out about but and definitely a lot of awareness
from women in the business side that you know, they're doing a
job at a certain level. Oh and it's not being tracked
you know translated to the job title or the pay that they are
being awarded so that aware that they're doing a job which is has
significantly more responsibility than they are
being rewarded, but can they do anything about it?
Not a chance, not a shirt, you know, because they'll be there
would be sacked, they would be pushed out.
Hmm. And probably given an end NDA on
the way out. Oh, it's just so frustrating.
And also the two things that we've talked about the gender
rolling in the gender norms and the pay Gap.
There's research that shows that these are almost actually
connected directly. I read also in that excuse, I
read it the other day, so all the data from that books fresh
in my mind but she talked about a study where they did a double
blind randomized CV that they sent out to all these
universities across the country for the The same job and they,
they mislabeled. So some of the same exact same
CV and on some of them, they put a man's name, typically, in an
end on some of them, but typically a female name and the
University's gave feedback that the male seavey's were more
competent and offered them all a higher starting salary and it's
the same c v. So this, you know, this thing of
like, okay, just pay women, more just hire more women in some
ways, obviously, She would obviously First Steps but I
worry that that's like fixing the symptom, not the cause
because I've also seen research where they corrected a pay Gap
like in that way, in a company I think it was in Sweden and they
they just matched. Everybody, they're like Pro
fine, we'll just do it. But then within three years, the
pay Gap was black because they hadn't addressed the underlying
issues that were causing the pay Gap in the first place.
Interesting. I haven't come, I haven't come
across that one. I'd love to know what research
paper that is. But, you know, I'm well, I'm
aware of for the research which shows the same certainly around
race and ethnicity as well. And you know, foreign sounding
names on seavey's, will, you know, definitely face the same
the same levels of discrimination and how much
harder it is for black and ethnic minority people to be,
you know, even get as I was being offered offered
interviews. So there's a whole, you know, we
haven't really explored the intersection of impact as well.
So I'm, you know, so I'm speaking to trans women, lesbian
women, black and ethnic minority women disabled women as well, to
really, you know, explore the multiplying impact of weather
for the levels of discrimination to but yeah, I did, you know, I
mean, that goes, this really fascinating that those Do you
know that the pay Gap really emerged in it because who is
doing the assessing who was making the decisions about Merit
and who deserves reward and promotions and until you really
start to, you know, be able to make people aware of their own
stereotypes and biases in those assessment processes then.
Yes, absolutely. That's, you know, that's what
it's all about. We all every single one of us in
in I tape, but in the of Music Industry needs to be checking
their own bars has going through self-awareness processes and
twin training. It's going to be a hard job.
But everybody everybody needs to participate in them?
Absolutely. And we all have them,
unconscious bias, even all the time, you know?
It's something that we as he said, everyone.
It's not like all the men must do this or all the straight
people must do this or all the white people's for do this.
Like everybody has these unconscious.
Bias, especially when we've been wearing a patriarchal society.
That one thing that really I find brings it home for me, is
when you start looking at timelines of things and you're
like it's only been like no woman was allowed to do my job
100 years ago. It's not been that long since
like, when you look at like the timeline of like, you know, the
whole planet and humans on the planet and then like the
teeny-weeny percentage of time that women were even allowed to
step on a stage or, you know, permitted and even And the data
is sometimes seems more positive than it is.
So, you know, we've had this hundred years of women in law
thing. But when you look into it, like
okay, they were allowed a law degree or they were allowed to
be work in a law firm, but it went doing any law, they were
making Cups of Tea, like they weren't allowed to go to court
for much years afterwards because they had to that was the
thing of like, fine will let women in fine.
We'll have one woman fine. Will, you know, will hire a
black person and there but not actually let them do anything
because they haven't worked on the biases and breaking down the
stereotypes and all that kind of thing.
So I think we, when we say, there's a lot of work to be
done, it's because we're still in it, you know, it's not like,
oh everything's fine. Now there's still like in the
grand scheme of things we're sort of scratching the surface
of this stuff, aren't we? Yeah I call it would just
emerging from a thousand years of musical patriarchy or when I
give presentations to students and other groups I'd you know I
mean it. Really easy to find, you know, a
picture of a thousand, white composers for every history.
You know, if you want to question that we've had two
musical patriarchy. Here's the visual image,
thousands and thousands of you know, dead dead, white men,
which formal Cannon and that informs us.
And we're still, we're still transitioning.
We're still pushing our way away out of that and those, you know,
biases and prejudices These are still are still present.
You really white. I mean, I know I can remember
one one man in music saying to me, but what are you complaining
about? You've had the vote for 100
years. Yay.
But you know, I mean, I'm still, I've still got, you know, and I
do, I do, I'm sort of alert for examples of sexism, you know,
statements and so on which, you know, men and music.
You know maybe founders of publishing companies and so on
of come out with over over the years to show you know that
sexism and sexist. Thoughts are influencing
Behavior. Still in still in music.
You know all of the oh well women you know the blame the
women women just aren't as good at making music as men.
They're not as creative. They're not is ambitious.
They don't like playing instruments.
They do. You know this that and the other
all of these things every time. Time.
I hear one of those. So read one of those on social
media, add it to my long long list of, you know why, why are
we seeing these statistics in music?
Watch the women. It's the woman's fault in some
way, but of course, it's absolutely not.
It's, it's structural, I find with those comments was really
telling us how contradictory they are so it's like the women
is blamed for having a baby or not having a baby or getting
married. Or getting married or you know
it for playing the guitar but they're not playing it well.
And you know because also one of the things about the lineups
that people have Justified, why you might not have a headline?
Female actors. Oh, they don't have the fans but
that's because they're not giving the opportunity in the
and they're not given the you're cutting them off way before the
point where you can't headline them.
And so I think that's really like surgery important to
highlight the, it's still there in Thor and the fact that people
say it out loud means that not only only are they thinking it,
they think it's socially acceptable, still The things
I've been told by you know quite what men it men I've known quite
a long time and music become out with all sorts of oh well
they're just not as good at making music as men you know
which is just shocking and actually my my retort to that to
that one is there's been some really interesting and, you
know, I find quite funny, but fairly serious research done by
Professor. It's in You had Professor no
Askin and he and his team analyzed, two million tracks
from Spotify by the Spotify database.
Going back to the 1950s. But all the way through to quite
recently, two million tracks and they found that women right more
creative music by creative. I mean more unique, you know,
they had algorithms analyzing the music for uniqueness
novelty, More creative songs, they found women were Whiting
more, more creative songs which I you know.
So whichever way you look at it, the sexist responses are yeah we
need to we need to challenge that with good research and and
data and start to turn, you know, this sort of sexist
Juggernaut around. Stop it and turn it around as
it's really interesting and we could talk about You know, the
value of data is so important for pointing to things that we
already know to be true, but view want to validate it and
also overcome, you know, all that's just one person's
experience. And you're like, well, actually
here's 50 people and here's the common themes, you know, you're
building a repertoire of referee Bowl evidence that we can point
to. And I think that's so important
to be able to let you said the things that need to change.
Then we have It's kind of, it's almost frustrating in a way
because you kind of wish we didn't need it, but at the same
time, it's really helpful. For overcoming those unconscious
bias and preconceived ideas, where people say to me, you
know, things like oh I work with loads of women in the music
industry. So there that you know, they'd
almost don't believe you that it's only twenty percent coming
through and things like this. And you're like, but that's your
individual experience and there's research that shows when
they showed Films two men we'd like 35 or 40% women actors in
the film and asked them to rate. What they thought the percentage
of the genders were in the film and they thought it was like 75
percent or something. I'm not remembering the numbers
correctly, but it was definitely that it was less than 50% and
they rated it over 50%. And when it was 50% they rated
it majority female because we're so trained like you said for a
thousand years to see a lot of white men everywhere that when
you see a few women or a few But of color, your human brain is
like, oh, there's loads of women and it's just not as
categorically not true. It's the it's the phenomenon of
the token. So especially if a minority
group constitutes less than 15% of a particular group, they will
be tokenized and they will become more visible.
They become the more noticeable because there's fewer of them.
So they You know, it has this, you know, this sort of opposite
opposite effect and what you know, was a one one thing are
you might have heard? Somebody might have said this to
you before, but one thing I'm often told when I say you know,
there's discrimination in a quality music especially against
women. I'm told.
But what about a doubt, what had?
It's the, what about a doubt phenomenon and I call her a
super token because she Say visible.
She's super visible in the music industry and her incredible
success is supposed to compensate for all of the
discrimination and harassment that just about every other
woman in music has faced. So you know, equivalent Beyonce
in in America. What about Beyonce?
But yeah, I've you know I can't tell you the number of times
I've, you know, had that red that had that said to me, what
about it now. It's really interesting it
because it's almost and I don't even know if those people who
think that are just genuinely, you know, lacking in knowledge
and education about it because this is such a cringy reference
but and I don't watch Love Island but I there was a famous
clip from a love Island. Episode years ago where we
Theresa May was was it 2-0 really female prime minister and
the the can't remember because I don't know when the show was
that the clip was one of the guy at the contestants.
It's all going with one of the women that there was no sexism
in the UK because we had a female prime minister and it's
the same concept isn't, it's like but there's one so there
can't be like the same is, that's really interesting, isn't
it? That like if you can point to
one, then that somehow invalidates the experience of
thousands of other women's really interesting because it's
super token. I like that.
It's really good way of a token illustrating that point and
thank you. So is there anything else you
wanted to talk about or say about your research or your
experience or anything else that you wanted to add that we
haven't covered? Well I you know I just want to
say that there aren't, there are solutions that we can do
something about this and we can't be more aware.
I think, you know, we have made great strides.
The first time I did diversity research in music was like 2011,
you know, in all of in all of my campaigning and very, you know,
various things since then what I've Seen is more acceptance
from the music industry that there is an issue and you know a
greater desire to want to do something about it so you know
spring springing up or dozens and dozens of initiatives
not-for-profits you know all sorts of Charities projects
going on that are looking at in a different different aspects
and wanting to do to do something to help.
So that's the, you know, is the good news.
You know, loads of people have given given support and
different ways to be effortless project but we still have a way
to go. We can't keep our foot off the
accelerator accelerator. The music industry really needs
to do more work work with these incredibly passionate Camp
campaigners more to really, you know, I will not be satisfied
until until labels are 50/50 their sign.
And artists, you know, and the women up up the management
levels to. So I'm just going to, I'm just
going to keep going until we get there.
Great. Well, you do a great job and we
really appreciate you. And like I said, it's it is.
And I've had that experience talking to people as well.
That it is getting better over time and I feel a sense of
momentum in the last year or so in particular, I don't know it's
because it's also like a lines a lot with Society.
Although in some ways the music industry You know, the pay Gap
is more worse than in other sectors, but then in other ways,
the music industry can can be so Innovative.
And there are, as you say there's a lot of women actually
here who in the music industry, who are absolutely fed up with
this nonsense and extremely motivated to make things better
for everyone and that's great. So I'm really glad that you said
that and it's really nice to end on a more positive note and
that's great. Are people listening as well?
Because you can, you can get involved in these campaigns.
You can follow these groups. You can join respect.
As we said for the male allies, you can support these
campaigners and yeah, there's lots going on with to get
involved with, which is great and to put the pressure on, as
you said to to focus on the solution.
So I'm really looking forward to hearing more about your
research. Good luck with the rest of your
PhD because I know PhD is really Black and honestly when I
started my PhD I had no idea what I was getting myself into
and I don't know that I would have agreed to do it if I had
done but at the same time I was really glad I did.
It was such an amazing experience and I don't know if
it's been the same for you, especially, because you do it
part-time, don't you? Yeah, I've done.
So I'm in my fourth fourth year, part part time, and, and
chuckling all of my different, you know, strands of my work is
it is such a challenge and I you know, I've decided actually from
talking with my supervisors from September.
I'm going to do a year full time of study, because I want to, I
want to do all of the analysis and writing up with as much
Focus as possible. So I'm just sorting out my
economics to enable enable me to do that.
So I can really, you know, if not fully completed, hopefully
I'll be, you know, substantially near the end because I'm really
impatient now to, you know, I've got a right.
In 2000 words. I really you know I know I need
I need some time to take that. I'm living it.
I am living it. Yeah.
And actually I think that's a brilliant idea mate if it's
possible because I mean it's not possible for everyone and I'm
not suggesting for the for a minute that everyone should do a
PhD because it's really is not for everybody.
But if you are doing it, one of the greatest things I found
about the experience was that ability to just like deep dive
into a subject and think about it every day for four.
Me, it was for three years straight and for some people
that sounds like hell, that's what I mean.
Like, for some people, they were absolutely not for me.
It was like a special interest where I obsessed over this topic
for years and actually, that's such a privilege because when I
was in life, would you really get the opportunity to do that?
And I think that process in itself is, is real kind of just
amazing experience actually, which for me that my actual PhD
research. I'm not even that really Heard
about it. He was like move Beyond it but
where is with yours me because you're doing it different stage
in your career where you've like figured out something that you
want to focus on other than a problem.
We want to help solve whereas I was just straight out of law,
degree didn't know what to do with my life and sort of did it.
So it was more. I took the most value I took
from the PHD experience was actually the the experience of
doing the PHD more than the actual research that makes
sense. So I don't expect that to be the
fear. Yeah, although Oh, I am.
I am really and you know, it's a proof.
It's a privilege to be able to go back to school in your 50s,
you know? And and study although my mum
says, I I thought you would do that.
You ought, you know, when I was asked at school, when I was a
scooted school-age, what did I want to do?
Was basically stay at school to select, you know work for twit
25 years and then go back to studying like this has been
brilliant and you know and Will challenge.
I have to say, you know, to get that academic brain in gear, but
I've never read so much in my life.
I am totally obsessed by this this subject.
I love it. It's my, it is my favorite thing
in the world. So that, you know, that is a
pleasure because I feel like I'm understanding human nature and
behavior in a, you know, in a really fascinating way.
So yes, I can't imagine how, you know, not not being totally
obsessed or in love with your PhD research, question that
would be terrible. I'm, you know, I'm very lucky in
that. This is, this is my my passion.
I mean, yeah, economically. It's been, you know, a terrible
decision. We really do, you know, to do
crazy thing to do to do any of any of 50s.
But it's, it's what makes me tick and get out of bed every
morning and, you know, and the and the really understanding how
fantastic A research process and how rigorous it is, every step
of the way, everything you have to go go through to construct,
your PhD is a revelation. It's like, oh, that's that's why
they're so well regarded kicked, you know, because it's tough.
It was really, it's really tough.
But I'm yeah, it is it is a privilege as well.
So yeah, well I second you on that.
I mean, it's amazing experience and I love what you said about
it helps you to understand. And this, what I mean about the
sub, the specific has basically. I did my whole PhD online
section 17 of the copyright designs and patents act who
cares. But that's not the bit I'm
obsessed with copyright and and I always think of this quote
from The Alchemist where he says, if you want to understand
the whole world, you can study a grain of sand.
And that's how I feel about the PHD not that.
I understand the whole world by any means obviously, but that it
gives you a deeper understanding of your Act and humans somehow
because even if you're not doing I didn't do qualitative like
interviews but because you study something so deeply and you and
you just do your thinking and your analyzing and like you said
your everything's constructed. It just that for me is like the
most amazing opportunity. That a PhD can give you anyway.
Sorry this is just turned into me loving and being so excited
about your PhD. Yeah, just research in general.
So my final question that I've asked everyone is to, if you
could please share with us a favorite female music maker and
maybe tell us a little bit about why.
And I know that's a lot of pressure because there are so
many to choose from so doesn't have to be your absolute
favorite. Just a favorite.
Yeah. And there's so there are so many
aren't those. So you know I've had various
names, you know, jumping jumping in.
Into my head. But I have to, I have to admit,
it makes it makes me laugh. Every time I put her music on, I
think, one of my guilty pleasures is listening to
Grimes. I do you know, the elec
electronic music and I'm laughing, you know, because
she's, you know, she's quite a bit younger than me.
It's, you know, I'm definitely, you know, not her her target age
age group, but I just think she's real, you know, all of
her. You know, this image, she's
could constructed around herself, but also the fact that
she's such a badass producer, I think that's what I love.
She's, you know, she, I've watched lots of interviews with,
with her, you know, claiming the technology claiming the role of
producer, very fiercely, you know, and she writes such good
Melodies and then she's doing everything.
I just think she's amazing. So I, you know, yeah, I've got
quite a, quite a few of her albums.
I mean, I, you know, I will admit I've got, you know, I've
got thousands of CDs, still, I'm very wedded to the physical
format in my car. I've got, you know, I've usually
got one or two Grimes albums in in my car, and yeah, just
brilliant to drive along too and she's like, I love it.
I love it. I don't even know if that counts
as guilty, pleasure. I think it's just a pleasure.
So, Thank you so much, Rick. And I will link to any resources
that we mentioned in the podcast by oh, so please check that out
and follow Vic's work. And we look route.
Look forward to hearing more about your PhD and good luck
with that final year, keep us updated.
Thanks so much for coming to us today.
Thank you. Thanks for listening.
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