1 00:00:07,700 --> 00:00:10,700 Hello and welcome to whose song is it anyway. 2 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:12,900 I'm dr. Haley boscia and for this 3 00:00:12,900 --> 00:00:15,900 special season of the podcast focusing on women in the music 4 00:00:15,900 --> 00:00:21,000 industry I'll be your host. So, hi Vic. 5 00:00:21,100 --> 00:00:22,900 Thanks so much for coming on. The Whose Line Is It? 6 00:00:22,900 --> 00:00:25,300 Anyway, podcast today it's a pleasure to have you and I 7 00:00:25,308 --> 00:00:28,200 really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule. 8 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,800 I know you're doing a PhD and I've been there so I can imagine 9 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,000 on top of everything else. You're very busy woman. 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,000 So can you tell our listeners who you are? 11 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,600 And what you do in the music industry? 12 00:00:40,100 --> 00:00:45,200 Well, thank you very much for asking me to participate. 13 00:00:45,300 --> 00:00:49,200 It's real, a real privilege and yes, sir, my name is Vic Bain. 14 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,000 I've worked, I've worked in various parts maybe most part of 15 00:00:53,008 --> 00:00:58,400 the music industry over the past, 25 years for the past four 16 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:00,900 years. I've been really focused on 17 00:01:00,900 --> 00:01:06,600 diversity in music and that sort of takes three main strands, 18 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:08,400 really. So you mentioned my PhD, I do a 19 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,300 lot of research in this area because it's all about good 20 00:01:11,300 --> 00:01:18,000 quality evidence and then I do a lot of sort of not-for-profit 21 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,800 charity. Look and that involves running 22 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,700 an organization. I set up called the F list for 23 00:01:24,700 --> 00:01:28,600 music, as well as my work with the independent Society of 24 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,900 musicians. And then I sort of squeeze in 25 00:01:31,900 --> 00:01:36,200 some paid work to pay for it, all doing various bits of 26 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,200 business or diversity Consulting. 27 00:01:40,300 --> 00:01:43,900 Really my background for many years has been with membership 28 00:01:43,900 --> 00:01:47,200 organizations. I was previously Chief exec of 29 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,200 what was then called the British Academy. 30 00:01:49,300 --> 00:01:51,800 Adam of songwriters composers and authors. 31 00:01:51,900 --> 00:01:55,900 So yeah, that's more, you know, more running music businesses. 32 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,500 Say that wasn't very pithy, but that's essentially what I do. 33 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,900 There's so much to unpack. There was a for more recently 34 00:02:02,900 --> 00:02:05,300 since that's the now called the Ivar's Academy, if they're 35 00:02:05,300 --> 00:02:07,600 wondering, what's the? I don't even know. 36 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:11,000 That's the guys name yet baskar. Yeah, much, much longer. 37 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,600 So they've had they've rebranded but there's still awesome. 38 00:02:13,900 --> 00:02:18,600 Okay, so much to unpack there. But what's great is that you 39 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,400 haven't That breadth of experience, probably you found 40 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,200 informs your research. Now to know what I mean. 41 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,000 You kind of like you've seen the music industry from different 42 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:33,000 angles, which is so valuable. So let's begin with the F list. 43 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,600 Can you? I assume that lots of our 44 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,100 listeners given the topic do know about the effortless? 45 00:02:38,100 --> 00:02:40,400 But let's assume that some people might not. 46 00:02:40,500 --> 00:02:42,900 And can you tell us a bit about what that is? 47 00:02:42,900 --> 00:02:46,900 And also why you started it? Yes. 48 00:02:46,900 --> 00:02:52,200 So so beautifulest Music, directory is essentially a 49 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,700 directory of female and gender. Expansive, musicians, who are 50 00:02:55,700 --> 00:03:00,400 based in the UK? We have nearly 6,000 listings 51 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,600 now and women can go and create their own listing. 52 00:03:05,100 --> 00:03:09,800 And that means that they are visible, they are findable to 53 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,300 the to the music industry so that they can get commission, 54 00:03:13,300 --> 00:03:18,300 they can get booked, they can find management, musicians can 55 00:03:18,300 --> 00:03:22,200 find them. Fans can find them radio DJ 56 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:26,600 searching for new Talent, you know they can just be found and 57 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:31,900 that visibility I think is so important because I think I was 58 00:03:31,900 --> 00:03:36,600 just a bit tired of reading radio newspaper interviews are 59 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,300 hearing the radio interviews of fair mainly Festival promoters 60 00:03:40,300 --> 00:03:45,300 saying, well you know we can't pick women because we can't find 61 00:03:45,300 --> 00:03:49,100 any they're not there women, don't play guitars women. 62 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,000 Don't play in bands, you know, all of this sort of rubbish. 63 00:03:52,300 --> 00:03:55,900 And so I created this directory to make the women visible and 64 00:03:55,900 --> 00:04:00,000 hey you know lo and behold there are well there's probably two or 65 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,300 three times as many female musicians out there, but the 66 00:04:03,300 --> 00:04:06,700 ones who've created listings, the others nearly 6,000 now 67 00:04:07,100 --> 00:04:09,600 amazing. And if someone wants to, if 68 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:11,700 they're listening and they're like I want to get on the list, 69 00:04:11,700 --> 00:04:15,400 what do they do? Look at the the website after 70 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,100 this music dot U k-- and create a free list. 71 00:04:19,700 --> 00:04:24,200 You know, just take, take a few minutes, they can put all of 72 00:04:24,208 --> 00:04:28,000 their contact details up all of those socials, they can embed up 73 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,900 to five different types of music feeds. 74 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,900 They can categorize themselves from skills that, you know, 75 00:04:34,900 --> 00:04:37,600 whether they're an instrumentalist, a producer, or 76 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:42,100 performer in different genres different instruments, there's 77 00:04:42,100 --> 00:04:45,800 dozens of those on location. So that they're, you know, 78 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,500 there's a really sophisticated search function. 79 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:50,300 Yeah. But it It's just free so they 80 00:04:50,300 --> 00:04:53,500 can they can join a joined the community, I love it. 81 00:04:53,500 --> 00:04:55,400 Thank you. Just really interesting. 82 00:04:55,400 --> 00:05:00,100 Lots of our work crosses over and actually I am created 83 00:05:00,100 --> 00:05:04,900 basically a parallel directory called World IP women because of 84 00:05:04,900 --> 00:05:09,300 the exact same thing. I was so fed up of going to 85 00:05:09,300 --> 00:05:12,500 conferences in law because obviously haven't my background 86 00:05:12,500 --> 00:05:16,900 is Law and there being only not only with men on the panel's but 87 00:05:16,900 --> 00:05:20,100 only men in the room and sometimes be the The women and 88 00:05:20,100 --> 00:05:22,300 I've got like, all these hilarious, but they're not 89 00:05:22,300 --> 00:05:25,500 hilarious, but you've got to laugh like pictures on my phone 90 00:05:25,500 --> 00:05:28,500 of me, sat in the back of a conference and just a sea of 91 00:05:28,500 --> 00:05:31,200 white male heads, and it's just like this subset. 92 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,600 And after a while, it's really started to grind at me and I 93 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,500 went up to I've even like confronted people not 94 00:05:37,500 --> 00:05:39,900 confrontationally, but been like, scuse me, why don't you 95 00:05:39,900 --> 00:05:41,400 have any women on this panel? Why are there? 96 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,900 No women here and they said the exact same thing. 97 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,700 We don't know any women in law, you don't know any women in 98 00:05:46,700 --> 00:05:50,800 intellectual property give over I work at University. 99 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:56,200 I know that 60% of law candidates are women, so if 100 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,100 they're not coming through, there's a problem. 101 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,400 And also there's a because there obviously are where to get onto 102 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,700 the issues. But anyway, so we had a really 103 00:06:03,700 --> 00:06:06,100 similar parallel experience where then I was like, fine, 104 00:06:06,300 --> 00:06:08,100 I'll just create a deck directory. 105 00:06:08,100 --> 00:06:11,900 Here's a big, long list of thousands of women doing this 106 00:06:11,900 --> 00:06:15,800 job, all different variations of this job, all across the world, 107 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,500 don't give me that shit. You know what I mean? 108 00:06:18,500 --> 00:06:20,600 It's like, That all women doing it. 109 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,800 So I completely appreciate your motivation because I had the 110 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,200 same thing and I think that you'd like to said visibility is 111 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,200 so important and it's just so inarguable. 112 00:06:30,300 --> 00:06:32,800 They're like well there are women doing this, so you need to 113 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,200 make a bigger effort. So let's get into some of the 114 00:06:36,500 --> 00:06:40,600 reasons why beyond the fact that people are think that there 115 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:44,300 aren't any women, we might be seeing because I think there's a 116 00:06:44,300 --> 00:06:46,500 lot of parallels. Like I just said you know the we 117 00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:49,600 see lots of women study law but not a lot of Women being 118 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,400 partners of law, firms for instance, and obviously in the 119 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:56,500 music industry, there's really similar trajectory of like women 120 00:06:56,500 --> 00:06:59,800 and girls interested in doing music at schools. 121 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,500 And then coming through the numbers, just drop off. 122 00:07:02,500 --> 00:07:05,700 So in your research and your experience, how have you found, 123 00:07:05,700 --> 00:07:07,400 what is what I'm saying? True. 124 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,400 And what do you think some of the reasons are for that? 125 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:16,200 Yes, it's absolutely true. So in every sector is, if you 126 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:20,400 know described, we see what's, you know, what's The vertical 127 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:25,500 hierarchy in in music. We see, you know, that that 128 00:07:25,500 --> 00:07:30,100 educational pipeline where it's more girls than boys, who study 129 00:07:30,100 --> 00:07:35,400 GCSE music. It's about exactly equal for a 130 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,700 levels. So though until just the past 22 131 00:07:38,700 --> 00:07:43,300 years, for many years girls were getting better grades at a level 132 00:07:43,300 --> 00:07:48,900 music then then boys it's just about even evened up now and at 133 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:54,600 University level it emits a mixed picture depending on the 134 00:07:54,700 --> 00:07:59,200 discipline of music. But overall, including every 135 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,100 music related subject, including audio, engineering, and 136 00:08:03,100 --> 00:08:07,400 business, and performance up until certainly open to a 20-18 137 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:12,800 was the last time I had data, 44% of Music graduates, were 138 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,000 women. So, slightly less than that, 139 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,100 than half but still, you know, a good, a good amount and it is 140 00:08:18,100 --> 00:08:23,600 increasing every Yeah, and yet when it comes to professionally 141 00:08:23,900 --> 00:08:28,200 working certainly as a musician, the women just disappear office 142 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:32,100 of national statistics data shows that over the past 10 or 143 00:08:32,500 --> 00:08:35,400 12 years. It's about, you know, it's about 144 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:41,600 25% of those who are reporting that their primary income is, as 145 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,600 professional musician about 25% or women. 146 00:08:44,900 --> 00:08:48,500 And when it comes to being signed by labels signed by 147 00:08:48,500 --> 00:08:52,300 publishing, Companies. Well it's 20% of music, label, 148 00:08:52,300 --> 00:08:55,800 rosters, or women, 14% of writers. 149 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:00,600 So it's you know we can see this vertical hierarchy. 150 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:07,200 So the more the more status that position has the fewer women are 151 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,800 participating in that. Why do we see that? 152 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,700 It's uh, it's complicated. There are many reasons. 153 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:19,000 I think a lot of it goes back to gendered social roles. 154 00:09:19,300 --> 00:09:24,300 So women are funneled into or encouraged to follow certain 155 00:09:24,300 --> 00:09:27,600 career paths. Men are encouraged to, you know, 156 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,500 go in other directions. But you know what, we see and 157 00:09:30,500 --> 00:09:34,200 again, this is an every sector. But we see the roles that women 158 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:38,800 do or not as well, paid. Not as well-regarded, don't have 159 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:43,700 the same status of women, predominate in music therapy, in 160 00:09:43,700 --> 00:09:48,000 music teaching that, you know, those sorts of nurturing caring 161 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,400 rules, which Nobody seems to value and the men are encouraged 162 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,900 to, you know, be rock and roll and get on the road and be you 163 00:09:55,900 --> 00:10:00,300 know, be professional musicians, specialize in you know, using 164 00:10:00,300 --> 00:10:03,800 music technology and certain so on and we have similar parallels 165 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,400 in the business side but yeah it's more extreme with 166 00:10:07,500 --> 00:10:09,400 musicians. Yeah. 167 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,000 Okay so there are kind of two main things that you've touched 168 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,900 on like the pay Gap. We can I'm summarizing and 169 00:10:16,900 --> 00:10:21,600 gender roles and I guess Those are like I said, there's lots of 170 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,900 issues and we don't have all day, so we actually cannot cover 171 00:10:24,900 --> 00:10:27,400 them all. But I think those are two key 172 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:31,700 and quite interesting things to talk about and I've just read 173 00:10:31,700 --> 00:10:34,800 this book called everyday. Sexism have you read it? 174 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,100 Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. 175 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:45,100 I cried, I cried. It was so, and it's nothing as 176 00:10:45,100 --> 00:10:47,300 it women when you hear these stories from these women and 177 00:10:47,300 --> 00:10:48,900 probably it's been the same experience. 178 00:10:49,100 --> 00:10:52,200 You maybe when you've been interviewing women for your PhD 179 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,200 like, and talking to people, it's not surprising. 180 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,600 A lot of the things but it is shocking and it was just the 181 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:01,000 over. But I would really recommend it 182 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,000 to anyone who's listening because it I love the way she 183 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,000 supports everything. She says with evidence, and 184 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:07,900 she's also telling the stories of women. 185 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:12,000 But one thing that was the saddest part for me, was this 186 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:16,700 stories of the children. Seven year old girls being like 187 00:11:16,900 --> 00:11:20,900 no women can't be Pilots. Is there not as clever as boys, 188 00:11:20,900 --> 00:11:24,400 that sadboys job. And you're just like, why? 189 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,500 Why have we done this? Why are we done this to this 190 00:11:27,500 --> 00:11:30,300 girls? Like and it's so Insidious. 191 00:11:30,300 --> 00:11:34,600 It's so ingrained in them consciously and subconsciously 192 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,800 from the minute. They're born that this gender 193 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:43,600 role exists. Even even today and it's just 194 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,300 honestly, it was devastating. I fully cried when I listen to 195 00:11:46,300 --> 00:11:49,800 that book. So for the Her rolling that 196 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,700 leads to women. It's not just like women, not 197 00:11:53,700 --> 00:11:56,200 choosing that job but also Society, not inviting that women 198 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:57,400 into that role as well, isn't it? 199 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,000 It's like a push and a poor situation. 200 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,300 So then if you can expand a little bit on that topic from 201 00:12:03,300 --> 00:12:08,800 your research and what you found around, gender rolling in music. 202 00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:13,000 Well, I'm quite a way through my data collection. 203 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:17,600 Phase of my PhD. So I've done 35 interviews with 204 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,700 women so far, I've got another 15 all lined up and they're real 205 00:12:21,700 --> 00:12:26,400 deep, Dives, the like to our dives into their career Pathways 206 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:30,900 and it's, you know, it's just very interesting, the power of 207 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,700 families and parents and you know, social upbringing, 208 00:12:34,700 --> 00:12:38,900 education and lightened. Teachers is a real help. 209 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,700 If you don't have that, it's it's more difficult. 210 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,600 It's, you know. So if women want to do things, 211 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:51,800 which are seen as masculine. Especially working in studios or 212 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,400 producing their own music or being anything other than, you 213 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:59,400 know, the beautiful singer. Then women have a real hard 214 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:03,200 time, overcoming those stereotypes or, you know, all 215 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,300 composing and writing music, which is, you know, really, 216 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,000 really seen as having masculine qualities. 217 00:13:11,500 --> 00:13:15,000 So, you know, there's a lot of, yeah, lot of stereotyping, a lot 218 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:19,000 of sexism, a lot of discrimination to overcome to. 219 00:13:19,100 --> 00:13:20,600 State in those worlds. And what? 220 00:13:20,700 --> 00:13:24,300 What I'm really fighting quite interesting, is the women who 221 00:13:24,300 --> 00:13:28,500 are women, who are really successful and incredible 222 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:35,400 musicians invariably or having to step outside the label system 223 00:13:35,700 --> 00:13:40,600 and do it themselves and they are, you know, weighing weighing 224 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:46,400 up the pros and cons of that. But are you certainly in the 225 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:50,700 group that I'm speaking with? Randomly as well, you know, 226 00:13:50,700 --> 00:13:54,200 people who are think, you know, are not not talking to each 227 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:59,500 other or making the decision to be independent, because the the 228 00:13:59,500 --> 00:14:02,700 sexism and the control and the Prejudice within the labels 229 00:14:02,700 --> 00:14:06,800 system is an acceptable to them. And that's really important 230 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,700 because the is a talked in, I did some research published some 231 00:14:10,700 --> 00:14:13,000 research, at the end of 2019 called counting the music 232 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,600 industry, where I looked at, you know, who would the labels 233 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,500 investing in? Who were the music publishing 234 00:14:18,500 --> 00:14:20,100 companies? Resting in, you know, 235 00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:24,800 significant amount of money and support and it wasn't many 236 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:26,600 women. You know, that's really 237 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,500 important because they can, you know, these these labels are 238 00:14:29,500 --> 00:14:33,500 sort of selling themselves as the research and artistic 239 00:14:33,500 --> 00:14:36,900 development engines of the music industry and yet, they're 240 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,300 unacceptable environments to many women who are then choosing 241 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,800 to step outside of that system and do it themselves to retain 242 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:46,900 control. These are women who had played 243 00:14:46,900 --> 00:14:49,800 on number one, albums told around the Old, I had 244 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,900 significant success when all sorts of awards and yet of said 245 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:55,400 this is not going to work for me. 246 00:14:55,400 --> 00:15:00,700 I need to you know maybe take a financial hit but do it, do it 247 00:15:00,700 --> 00:15:03,400 myself. So there's massive barriers to 248 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,300 women's career progression. Yeah, so the point where they're 249 00:15:06,300 --> 00:15:08,400 like, I'm not even going to play this game. 250 00:15:08,500 --> 00:15:11,200 I'm gonna go and make my own Arena over here. 251 00:15:11,300 --> 00:15:14,700 Yeah, as it really, really interesting Insight. 252 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,900 So thinking about those women that you're sort of describing 253 00:15:19,100 --> 00:15:22,300 Out. If you had to think of like, are 254 00:15:22,300 --> 00:15:27,100 there any common threads or themes in their kind of 255 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,500 personality? I'm trying to think about is 256 00:15:30,700 --> 00:15:34,200 when we say things like, you know, gender Norms are a problem 257 00:15:34,500 --> 00:15:40,100 and like heteronormative issues. It's so difficult I think to 258 00:15:40,100 --> 00:15:43,400 it's quite a lofty concept and it's difficult to be like 259 00:15:43,500 --> 00:15:45,900 there's no. So if you do these three steps 260 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,600 everything will be fine. So I'm wondering if These women 261 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,100 who have succeeded and have overcome to certain extent. 262 00:15:53,100 --> 00:15:56,800 Some of these challenges have a common kind of trait, whether 263 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:01,300 it's like, rebelling against the system, or how did they feel 264 00:16:01,300 --> 00:16:03,400 empowered beyond the gender Norm? 265 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,900 Do know what I mean? Well, I've got a, I've got a 266 00:16:06,908 --> 00:16:13,200 good while yet to go on my PhD analysis, you know, I need to 267 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,000 spend a good six months full-time analyzing, you know, 268 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,900 to really be able to pull out all of all of this red. 269 00:16:19,100 --> 00:16:24,500 But it seems to me so far that having a nice middle-class 270 00:16:24,500 --> 00:16:29,300 upbringing Alps it just it just just do see you know to have 271 00:16:29,300 --> 00:16:33,900 that good music, education tabs, a good stable you know support 272 00:16:33,900 --> 00:16:37,900 some money to help you through those initial few years, maybe 273 00:16:37,900 --> 00:16:42,000 some confidence so that that seems to be a thing which I need 274 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:46,700 to explore lot more, you know, having a supportive partner. 275 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,000 If you were in a relationship have And somebody who supports 276 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,600 you because that, you know, I have spoken to a few women who 277 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,300 they literally had to get divorced, you know. 278 00:16:55,300 --> 00:16:57,800 Wow. And if their home environment 279 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,300 wasn't wasn't supportive especially if they choose to 280 00:17:01,300 --> 00:17:03,800 have children. You know a lot lots of women. 281 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,599 I'm speaking to are like children, it's career suicide. 282 00:17:07,099 --> 00:17:10,700 So that's a pretty major issue for women in the business as 283 00:17:10,700 --> 00:17:14,300 well as performers, you know, and a lot lots of women, you 284 00:17:14,308 --> 00:17:17,200 know, I don't ask them well, you know, how does one succeed in 285 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:18,800 the music industry and everybody does. 286 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:23,200 Say, well hard work persistence tenacity, you know, all of the 287 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,800 order of these qualities. But as Laura Bates, would say in 288 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,000 another one of her books, which is brilliant, which is don't fix 289 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,700 the women. Hmm, fix the system. 290 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,400 You know, you can be as tenacious as you want, but if 291 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:42,200 you are if you don't have economic resources or you know, 292 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:46,800 support support at home, you know, you you're still not going 293 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:48,900 to be able to break down some of those barriers. 294 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,200 Hers. So most of the women I'm 295 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,000 speaking to have been have achieved success and been very 296 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,900 successful. But I'm also speaking to women 297 00:17:56,900 --> 00:18:00,000 who've struggled struggled struggled and maybe their career 298 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,600 hasn't you know been quite what they wanted it to be or what it 299 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,400 should have been because the, you know, the barriers in their 300 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,200 personal lives have been too much. 301 00:18:10,700 --> 00:18:13,500 There's also been a couple of women who have told me that, 302 00:18:13,500 --> 00:18:17,500 their too traumatized to speak with me which has been really, 303 00:18:18,100 --> 00:18:22,400 really sad. And a remarkable number of my 304 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,500 interviewees undergoing therapy remarkable number. 305 00:18:26,500 --> 00:18:29,400 I have to have to say, you know, if and hugely successful 306 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,700 award-winning people. So it's and I have to say a 307 00:18:33,708 --> 00:18:36,500 naught, you know, all of them. All of my interviews as well. 308 00:18:36,500 --> 00:18:38,800 They're all absolutely confidential. 309 00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:40,800 Of course. And nobody's, you know, I'll 310 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,900 talk about the experiences in general, but nobody will be 311 00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:47,200 identifiable. So, you know, I'm being told 312 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,700 about a lot of Jihu. Yeah. 313 00:18:49,700 --> 00:18:55,000 Horrifying experiences. Lots involving outright misogyny 314 00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:01,300 and sexual harrasment of varying degrees of severity and as well 315 00:19:01,300 --> 00:19:04,300 as a lot of our, what I call Financial abuse. 316 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,400 Yes, was so it's, yeah. It's quite it's quite the 317 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,800 powerful process I can imagine. I think it's really important to 318 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,100 recognize what you said about the we can because when I was 319 00:19:15,100 --> 00:19:16,800 thinking of like, what are these traits, I'm trying. 320 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:21,100 Trying to understand the picture a bit about. how to overcome the 321 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:25,500 gender Norm as a challenge but also obviously there are a 322 00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:30,000 barrage of challenges and so when you say coming from a 323 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,600 middle-class family with support at home is so important to 324 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,400 recognize because as he said, even if you had were all of 325 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,900 those things, the most hard-working woman in the 326 00:19:38,900 --> 00:19:42,400 country, you might have more barriers than someone who 327 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,200 actually is also working hard but maybe not as hard as you but 328 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:49,400 they have Financial backing or you know started this Started 329 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,600 the race ahead of you. And so, as it's a really 330 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,000 important point that you've made that when I'm talking about 331 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,800 these traits, I'm just trying to understand if there are any 332 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,400 hidden Solutions in their of like how and people, that's what 333 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,300 people tend to ask, isn't it? Like, what, how do you become? 334 00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:07,900 Like I said, how do you get successful in the music 335 00:20:07,900 --> 00:20:09,200 industry? But there's, there's all the 336 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,100 barriers you start with. So your ethical cultural, 337 00:20:13,300 --> 00:20:18,100 gender, sexuality, all of economic circumstances, and 338 00:20:18,100 --> 00:20:21,400 then, as you said, Ed especially as a woman in the music industry 339 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,100 or say as a trans person or quiz person. 340 00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:28,300 You might then be faced with traumatic experiences in the 341 00:20:28,300 --> 00:20:31,000 music industry that then become another barrier or even a 342 00:20:31,008 --> 00:20:33,700 setback. One of the interview is on this 343 00:20:33,700 --> 00:20:37,600 podcast season talks about an experience of sexual assault 344 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,800 which led to her not leaving the house for a number of years and 345 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,400 obviously that affected her life and her well-being, but 346 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,200 obviously also her career. So that then be as you said 347 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:53,100 becomes Another barrier and I think it's really eye-opening 348 00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:55,400 what you said about the fact that so many of your 349 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,600 interviewees are going through therapy because of the trauma, 350 00:21:00,100 --> 00:21:05,600 that can be the music industry. So yeah, I'm just, I'm just 351 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,200 still processing what you said. I don't even have a question. 352 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:13,000 I was like this is horrific. I'm definitely looking at the 353 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,500 enabled the enablers as well. You know, my research question 354 00:21:16,500 --> 00:21:19,500 is looking at Women's careers in the music industry but Looking 355 00:21:19,500 --> 00:21:22,900 at the enablers as well as the barriers. 356 00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:25,500 So I, you know. So I am really, you know, 357 00:21:25,500 --> 00:21:31,000 exploring with with people what has helped what has helped and 358 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,500 another more positive thing which is emerging very strongly. 359 00:21:34,500 --> 00:21:39,200 In fact, is there are there are powerful Gatekeepers and mentors 360 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,700 out there and for many women and music. 361 00:21:42,700 --> 00:21:47,300 Those people are men because it's not all men and we have 362 00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:51,800 some really good guys out there. There who are using the position 363 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:57,900 of power and influence and experience to really help women. 364 00:21:57,900 --> 00:22:03,100 So that's a joy to know and you know, is the real, you know, 365 00:22:03,100 --> 00:22:08,400 it's a, it's a silver lining in what, you know, in what can you 366 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,900 know, sometimes feel feel like a very, very dark cloud so that 367 00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:14,700 you know that I would. Yeah. 368 00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:18,800 Definitely, you know give a big shout out to all of the good. 369 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,700 Guys out there, who would hear what, you know, doing the right 370 00:22:22,700 --> 00:22:25,100 thing for the right, the right reasons. 371 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,600 Well, in fact, and the right reasons are to have a more 372 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:34,900 creative music industry, you know, creativity is in, you 373 00:22:34,900 --> 00:22:38,700 know, so many places. And if you are discriminating 374 00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:44,000 against holds waves of society, then you're cutting yourself off 375 00:22:44,700 --> 00:22:48,800 from better for more for more creativity more. 376 00:22:48,900 --> 00:22:55,500 Nativity means better songs being written and produced and 377 00:22:55,500 --> 00:23:00,700 performed more, exciting music and more diverse lineups and 378 00:23:00,700 --> 00:23:04,100 more at the end of the day, more music sales, more music, 379 00:23:04,100 --> 00:23:07,900 straight streaming more ticket sales, you know, it's a win-win. 380 00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:11,700 So for but you know for people in the music industry to have 381 00:23:11,700 --> 00:23:14,800 these prejudices and discriminate especially against 382 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:19,300 women is doesn't make business sense and yeah it To make this 383 00:23:19,300 --> 00:23:22,600 is 50% of the world. Like, if you just because also, 384 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,200 it's when you say, like, more success in creativity, there's 385 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:26,500 so many layers to that, isn't there? 386 00:23:26,500 --> 00:23:29,200 There's like the song itself and then there's also like, how many 387 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:34,900 people that song will resonate with if it's made by somebody of 388 00:23:34,900 --> 00:23:36,700 the gender of half the world? I love that. 389 00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:39,800 That's really encouraging to hear about the Allies. 390 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,500 I'm wondering if there are people because, you know, what's 391 00:23:42,500 --> 00:23:45,800 really interesting, when I look at the data on who listens to 392 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,000 this podcast in the first two seasons, it was about about 393 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,200 50/50, but sometimes majority female over male and then a 394 00:23:53,900 --> 00:23:56,400 small percentage of non-binary or people who didn't specify 395 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:01,200 their gender and this season. So far, there's been more people 396 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,800 who said that they are male, listening, rather than female, 397 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,900 which is so encouraging. I know I really happy about it. 398 00:24:07,900 --> 00:24:10,400 So thank you so much to the listeners who are listening and 399 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,000 I, so for those people in particular, what makes a good 400 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,500 Ally? Do you think or how do they, you 401 00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:19,300 know? I think it's just some Couraging 402 00:24:19,300 --> 00:24:23,000 words basically around being a good Ally, what that might look 403 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,600 like because if some people I think are Keen to listen because 404 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,000 they're not sure like should I be doing? 405 00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:31,300 What should I be doing? Like I'm on your team, what 406 00:24:31,300 --> 00:24:35,300 should I do? Well, I think UNIF amuse 407 00:24:35,300 --> 00:24:38,200 accompanies. They can start by looking at the 408 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,300 data within their own organization and seeing if there 409 00:24:42,300 --> 00:24:46,500 are any gaps now we are getting were making strides within the 410 00:24:46,508 --> 00:24:51,300 workforce but perhaps More on the entry level positions than 411 00:24:51,300 --> 00:24:54,600 it management ranks. So therefore, you know, in most 412 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:59,000 music businesses, they need to be focusing on retaining and 413 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,600 developing their female and gender, expansive, people within 414 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:08,400 the workforce, going up the ranks vertically, but for most 415 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:14,600 music businesses which have artistic rosters could be agents 416 00:25:14,900 --> 00:25:19,400 management companies Publishers record labels or So, you know, 417 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:24,500 event programming, they simply need to sign and book more women 418 00:25:25,100 --> 00:25:29,600 because that's where the huge huge gap is, you know, if 80% of 419 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:35,200 signed artists are men 86% of signed signed writers, certainly 420 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,200 in 2019, they need to do something about that. 421 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,800 That's, you know, absolutely ridiculous and as well as, you 422 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,900 know, having a moon about ever had those statistics. 423 00:25:44,900 --> 00:25:49,200 I am a very solution orientated, person, and that That's why I 424 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,600 set up the F list because there is a there is a solution. 425 00:25:53,900 --> 00:25:56,300 You want to know where female Talent is get. 426 00:25:56,300 --> 00:25:59,600 Have a look, have a look there and I tell you the music is 427 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,200 incredible. Yeah, great. 428 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,500 I think that's really because good to have some practical kind 429 00:26:05,500 --> 00:26:08,400 of steps as well. You touched on something else 430 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:13,500 that I want to ask you about which is the pay Gap and I dunno 431 00:26:13,500 --> 00:26:16,900 if you want to share, if you've got any kind of nuggets and 432 00:26:16,900 --> 00:26:18,600 statistics are for the top of your head. 433 00:26:18,900 --> 00:26:21,800 And experience that you've gauged from the women that 434 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:26,400 you've interviewed around pay. But also my main question, which 435 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,000 I'm really Keen to ask you. And also everyone is because 436 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,800 sometimes people say to me, there isn't a pay Gap and I'm 437 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,500 too busy being angry to formulate a coherent answer. 438 00:26:38,500 --> 00:26:42,700 So what do you say? When people say there is if 439 00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:45,200 someone says well there isn't a pay Gap its disputed. 440 00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:48,000 What's your response that disputed? 441 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:53,200 I you know I I mean, all of the so much research which which you 442 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:59,500 no doubt, delves into this, the gender pay Gap reports that 443 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,200 under the equalities act, the government has to, you know, 444 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,900 publicize all of the companies that employ over 250 people in, 445 00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:10,100 as we all know, we all know about about that. 446 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,900 There's only about a dozen companies in the music industry 447 00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:17,300 or that big being an industry of micro businesses. 448 00:27:17,300 --> 00:27:21,600 But you know there are there 12. And I've been tracking them and 449 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:26,300 analyzing every company which falls falls in that bracket and 450 00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:29,300 the, you know, and it's and it's two things are getting slightly 451 00:27:29,300 --> 00:27:31,800 better. So work at kind of about 15 or 452 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:37,200 16 percent that all of the men and those organizations are 453 00:27:37,300 --> 00:27:41,300 compared to all of the women no matter what role they do, the 454 00:27:41,300 --> 00:27:46,100 men are in higher-paying jobs back to. 455 00:27:46,100 --> 00:27:49,600 What I was talking about that, the roads that meant Do you are, 456 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,200 you know, considered more valuable. 457 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,800 So there is a pay gap on the hourly hourly rate still, Which 458 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,800 is higher at higher than the national average. 459 00:27:57,900 --> 00:28:01,200 The really interesting thing about those about those pay 460 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,600 gaps, is it also you know it also reveals the the vertical 461 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,600 hierarchy. So, so tell you in quartiles, 462 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,100 how many men and women are in each of those organizations? 463 00:28:13,100 --> 00:28:16,200 And there's this hierarchy women and the lower-paying roles but 464 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,600 the bonus pay. Gaps are my goodness me? 465 00:28:18,900 --> 00:28:23,200 Yeah, absolutely. I watering eye-watering see if 466 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,000 you look at, you know, organizations such as AEG and 467 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:32,400 and Live Nation, it's more men than women are paid bonuses. 468 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,100 And, you know, and in some organizations and some years, 469 00:28:35,100 --> 00:28:37,800 the men are paid 60 percent more. 470 00:28:39,300 --> 00:28:44,400 So the evidence is there that, you know, and then people say 471 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,500 are but it's not for the same jobs and blah, blah blah, you 472 00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:51,100 know. But who is saying that, you 473 00:28:51,100 --> 00:28:55,600 know, who's deciding that one role is more valuable than 474 00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:00,400 another, you know, and women who specialize in marketing and PR 475 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:05,000 human resources or is, you know, executive assistants, those 476 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:11,600 worlds are not deemed to be as valuable as Finance or Tech who 477 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,200 decides that, you know, we did we do as a society. 478 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,400 So there's that evidence with the government pay Reporting, 479 00:29:19,500 --> 00:29:24,300 but lots and lots of economic transactions in the music 480 00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:28,800 industry is totally cloaked and hidden, you know, it's the vast 481 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,400 majority of people working in music will either be 482 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,200 self-employed or work for micro businesses and they don't have 483 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,900 to report in in that way. And I've experienced pay 484 00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:43,500 discrimination in my career. And most of the women, I'm 485 00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:48,000 speaking to in my PhD interviews are reporting this, including 486 00:29:48,700 --> 00:29:53,600 oceans like well you know definite definitely as musicians 487 00:29:53,900 --> 00:29:58,700 finding out somehow that you know doing doing Festival gigs 488 00:29:58,700 --> 00:30:02,200 and so on that they're being paid a lot less than the mailed 489 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,700 bands and musicians other similar level. 490 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:09,900 But even things as Extreme as women playing in bands and 491 00:30:09,900 --> 00:30:14,600 finding out that the deal they are on from the record label is 492 00:30:14,900 --> 00:30:18,600 worth less than the men in the same balance. 493 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:25,100 Fight for finding that out, you know, and then with a complain 494 00:30:25,100 --> 00:30:27,400 about it. So what so that you know, so 495 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,500 they're treated less valuable e so that you'd have really needs 496 00:30:31,500 --> 00:30:35,300 to be a lot more transparency because when there is 497 00:30:35,300 --> 00:30:38,400 transparency like there isn't this you know really big 498 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,100 companies then all of a sudden the companies have to take note 499 00:30:42,100 --> 00:30:46,300 because they know it damages their reputation, they might not 500 00:30:46,500 --> 00:30:51,600 care and clearly they don't Morally, but reputationally may 501 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,400 be old, but encourage them to go to go in the right in the right 502 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,300 direction. So I you know I would definitely 503 00:30:57,300 --> 00:31:00,300 like to see the pay Gap. Reporting requirement to be 504 00:31:00,300 --> 00:31:04,800 significantly lowered as it is in some, some some other 505 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,400 countries to maybe, you know, 50 or 20. 506 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,600 I think would probably build be more useful in music. 507 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:15,700 But also, how about having some transparency around record deals 508 00:31:16,300 --> 00:31:19,200 that would help? We got to think of other For the 509 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,500 ways of making you know if making this date this data. 510 00:31:22,500 --> 00:31:25,800 I mean I can remember asking PRS for music years ago. 511 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,700 Oh you know we know that I think at the time it was like fifteen 512 00:31:30,700 --> 00:31:35,300 percent of their of their over 100,000 members only 15% at that 513 00:31:35,300 --> 00:31:37,600 time. I think it's gone up to maybe 17 514 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,800 or 18 percent. Now of their members are women. 515 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,500 I said, so what percentage of the, if the money's that are 516 00:31:44,500 --> 00:31:48,600 collected, what percentage of that goes to women? 517 00:31:48,700 --> 00:31:50,700 Owen. Because I was interested to see 518 00:31:50,700 --> 00:31:54,800 whether it matched, you know, or whether the women were you know 519 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,700 if they were only at the time, 15% would they only being paid 520 00:31:58,700 --> 00:32:01,800 10% of the income or was it higher? 521 00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:05,100 You know I suspected it was lower in you know in that 522 00:32:05,100 --> 00:32:08,300 woman's Works weren't being performed and exploited the same 523 00:32:08,300 --> 00:32:11,600 level and I was told categorically that that 524 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:16,800 information was too sensitive. Which indicated, to me that day 525 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:21,900 in amazing is much lower. There was a problem so you know 526 00:32:21,900 --> 00:32:24,800 will be interesting for record labels to say. 527 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,600 Okay, so you know, 20% of our rosters or women you know, and 528 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,800 yeah what purse, what percentage of the if the income you know 529 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,800 and investment yet. Yeah, exactly. 530 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,000 Exactly. You know, so if women were on 531 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,100 lesser deals. Yeah. 532 00:32:40,100 --> 00:32:45,000 How much, how much money was being invested in, you know, in 533 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,400 terms of front deals, Information like that, we could 534 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:54,000 really see how it, you know, how much of a structural problem 535 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,600 there is because I'm talking to individuals who are, you know, 536 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,500 who are telling me about the, you know, the financial 537 00:33:01,500 --> 00:33:04,700 discrimination that they have faced and you know that they 538 00:33:04,700 --> 00:33:10,000 just find out about you know, sometimes unintentionally find a 539 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,000 find out about but and definitely a lot of awareness 540 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,100 from women in the business side that you know, they're doing a 541 00:33:16,100 --> 00:33:20,400 job at a certain level. Oh and it's not being tracked 542 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:25,300 you know translated to the job title or the pay that they are 543 00:33:25,300 --> 00:33:30,000 being awarded so that aware that they're doing a job which is has 544 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,100 significantly more responsibility than they are 545 00:33:34,100 --> 00:33:37,500 being rewarded, but can they do anything about it? 546 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,000 Not a chance, not a shirt, you know, because they'll be there 547 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:42,900 would be sacked, they would be pushed out. 548 00:33:43,500 --> 00:33:46,400 Hmm. And probably given an end NDA on 549 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,200 the way out. Oh, it's just so frustrating. 550 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,700 And also the two things that we've talked about the gender 551 00:33:53,700 --> 00:33:56,400 rolling in the gender norms and the pay Gap. 552 00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:00,900 There's research that shows that these are almost actually 553 00:34:00,900 --> 00:34:04,700 connected directly. I read also in that excuse, I 554 00:34:04,700 --> 00:34:06,900 read it the other day, so all the data from that books fresh 555 00:34:06,900 --> 00:34:11,000 in my mind but she talked about a study where they did a double 556 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:15,500 blind randomized CV that they sent out to all these 557 00:34:15,500 --> 00:34:19,199 universities across the country for the The same job and they, 558 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,900 they mislabeled. So some of the same exact same 559 00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:25,400 CV and on some of them, they put a man's name, typically, in an 560 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:30,100 end on some of them, but typically a female name and the 561 00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:35,600 University's gave feedback that the male seavey's were more 562 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:40,500 competent and offered them all a higher starting salary and it's 563 00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:43,699 the same c v. So this, you know, this thing of 564 00:34:43,699 --> 00:34:46,699 like, okay, just pay women, more just hire more women in some 565 00:34:46,699 --> 00:34:50,100 ways, obviously, She would obviously First Steps but I 566 00:34:50,100 --> 00:34:53,600 worry that that's like fixing the symptom, not the cause 567 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:59,500 because I've also seen research where they corrected a pay Gap 568 00:34:59,500 --> 00:35:06,100 like in that way, in a company I think it was in Sweden and they 569 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,700 they just matched. Everybody, they're like Pro 570 00:35:08,700 --> 00:35:11,000 fine, we'll just do it. But then within three years, the 571 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,300 pay Gap was black because they hadn't addressed the underlying 572 00:35:14,300 --> 00:35:17,000 issues that were causing the pay Gap in the first place. 573 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,300 Interesting. I haven't come, I haven't come 574 00:35:19,300 --> 00:35:21,500 across that one. I'd love to know what research 575 00:35:21,500 --> 00:35:24,600 paper that is. But, you know, I'm well, I'm 576 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,800 aware of for the research which shows the same certainly around 577 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:34,100 race and ethnicity as well. And you know, foreign sounding 578 00:35:34,500 --> 00:35:39,000 names on seavey's, will, you know, definitely face the same 579 00:35:39,100 --> 00:35:42,400 the same levels of discrimination and how much 580 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,100 harder it is for black and ethnic minority people to be, 581 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,700 you know, even get as I was being offered offered 582 00:35:48,700 --> 00:35:51,100 interviews. So there's a whole, you know, we 583 00:35:51,100 --> 00:35:55,600 haven't really explored the intersection of impact as well. 584 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,600 So I'm, you know, so I'm speaking to trans women, lesbian 585 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:05,200 women, black and ethnic minority women disabled women as well, to 586 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:10,100 really, you know, explore the multiplying impact of weather 587 00:36:10,100 --> 00:36:14,300 for the levels of discrimination to but yeah, I did, you know, I 588 00:36:14,300 --> 00:36:17,900 mean, that goes, this really fascinating that those Do you 589 00:36:17,900 --> 00:36:21,100 know that the pay Gap really emerged in it because who is 590 00:36:21,100 --> 00:36:25,900 doing the assessing who was making the decisions about Merit 591 00:36:26,100 --> 00:36:31,400 and who deserves reward and promotions and until you really 592 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,800 start to, you know, be able to make people aware of their own 593 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:42,100 stereotypes and biases in those assessment processes then. 594 00:36:42,100 --> 00:36:44,100 Yes, absolutely. That's, you know, that's what 595 00:36:44,100 --> 00:36:46,800 it's all about. We all every single one of us in 596 00:36:46,900 --> 00:36:51,400 in I tape, but in the of Music Industry needs to be checking 597 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:56,800 their own bars has going through self-awareness processes and 598 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,000 twin training. It's going to be a hard job. 599 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,100 But everybody everybody needs to participate in them? 600 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,300 Absolutely. And we all have them, 601 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,900 unconscious bias, even all the time, you know? 602 00:37:06,900 --> 00:37:09,500 It's something that we as he said, everyone. 603 00:37:09,500 --> 00:37:12,800 It's not like all the men must do this or all the straight 604 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,200 people must do this or all the white people's for do this. 605 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,300 Like everybody has these unconscious. 606 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:22,300 Bias, especially when we've been wearing a patriarchal society. 607 00:37:22,300 --> 00:37:26,200 That one thing that really I find brings it home for me, is 608 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,600 when you start looking at timelines of things and you're 609 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:33,100 like it's only been like no woman was allowed to do my job 610 00:37:33,100 --> 00:37:36,500 100 years ago. It's not been that long since 611 00:37:36,500 --> 00:37:38,500 like, when you look at like the timeline of like, you know, the 612 00:37:38,500 --> 00:37:40,900 whole planet and humans on the planet and then like the 613 00:37:40,900 --> 00:37:43,800 teeny-weeny percentage of time that women were even allowed to 614 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:48,200 step on a stage or, you know, permitted and even And the data 615 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,600 is sometimes seems more positive than it is. 616 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,300 So, you know, we've had this hundred years of women in law 617 00:37:53,300 --> 00:37:55,100 thing. But when you look into it, like 618 00:37:55,100 --> 00:37:58,400 okay, they were allowed a law degree or they were allowed to 619 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,200 be work in a law firm, but it went doing any law, they were 620 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,800 making Cups of Tea, like they weren't allowed to go to court 621 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,500 for much years afterwards because they had to that was the 622 00:38:07,500 --> 00:38:09,500 thing of like, fine will let women in fine. 623 00:38:09,500 --> 00:38:12,300 We'll have one woman fine. Will, you know, will hire a 624 00:38:12,300 --> 00:38:15,300 black person and there but not actually let them do anything 625 00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:18,600 because they haven't worked on the biases and breaking down the 626 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,400 stereotypes and all that kind of thing. 627 00:38:20,700 --> 00:38:24,200 So I think we, when we say, there's a lot of work to be 628 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,200 done, it's because we're still in it, you know, it's not like, 629 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:31,400 oh everything's fine. Now there's still like in the 630 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,900 grand scheme of things we're sort of scratching the surface 631 00:38:34,900 --> 00:38:38,000 of this stuff, aren't we? Yeah I call it would just 632 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:42,500 emerging from a thousand years of musical patriarchy or when I 633 00:38:42,508 --> 00:38:47,000 give presentations to students and other groups I'd you know I 634 00:38:47,008 --> 00:38:49,700 mean it. Really easy to find, you know, a 635 00:38:49,700 --> 00:38:54,700 picture of a thousand, white composers for every history. 636 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,900 You know, if you want to question that we've had two 637 00:38:58,900 --> 00:39:01,500 musical patriarchy. Here's the visual image, 638 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,700 thousands and thousands of you know, dead dead, white men, 639 00:39:05,700 --> 00:39:08,600 which formal Cannon and that informs us. 640 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,200 And we're still, we're still transitioning. 641 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,600 We're still pushing our way away out of that and those, you know, 642 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,000 biases and prejudices These are still are still present. 643 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,400 You really white. I mean, I know I can remember 644 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,400 one one man in music saying to me, but what are you complaining 645 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,500 about? You've had the vote for 100 646 00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:30,800 years. Yay. 647 00:39:32,700 --> 00:39:36,100 But you know, I mean, I'm still, I've still got, you know, and I 648 00:39:36,100 --> 00:39:43,300 do, I do, I'm sort of alert for examples of sexism, you know, 649 00:39:43,300 --> 00:39:47,200 statements and so on which, you know, men and music. 650 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,500 You know maybe founders of publishing companies and so on 651 00:39:50,500 --> 00:39:54,800 of come out with over over the years to show you know that 652 00:39:55,300 --> 00:40:00,100 sexism and sexist. Thoughts are influencing 653 00:40:00,100 --> 00:40:02,200 Behavior. Still in still in music. 654 00:40:02,300 --> 00:40:05,900 You know all of the oh well women you know the blame the 655 00:40:05,900 --> 00:40:09,200 women women just aren't as good at making music as men. 656 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,900 They're not as creative. They're not is ambitious. 657 00:40:11,900 --> 00:40:14,700 They don't like playing instruments. 658 00:40:14,700 --> 00:40:16,200 They do. You know this that and the other 659 00:40:16,300 --> 00:40:17,500 all of these things every time. Time. 660 00:40:17,500 --> 00:40:20,600 I hear one of those. So read one of those on social 661 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:25,700 media, add it to my long long list of, you know why, why are 662 00:40:25,700 --> 00:40:28,200 we seeing these statistics in music? 663 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,400 Watch the women. It's the woman's fault in some 664 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,200 way, but of course, it's absolutely not. 665 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:38,500 It's, it's structural, I find with those comments was really 666 00:40:38,500 --> 00:40:43,100 telling us how contradictory they are so it's like the women 667 00:40:43,100 --> 00:40:47,000 is blamed for having a baby or not having a baby or getting 668 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:48,900 married. Or getting married or you know 669 00:40:49,100 --> 00:40:51,400 it for playing the guitar but they're not playing it well. 670 00:40:51,500 --> 00:40:55,300 And you know because also one of the things about the lineups 671 00:40:55,500 --> 00:41:00,100 that people have Justified, why you might not have a headline? 672 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,300 Female actors. Oh, they don't have the fans but 673 00:41:02,300 --> 00:41:04,400 that's because they're not giving the opportunity in the 674 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,000 and they're not given the you're cutting them off way before the 675 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:09,900 point where you can't headline them. 676 00:41:10,100 --> 00:41:12,300 And so I think that's really like surgery important to 677 00:41:12,300 --> 00:41:15,500 highlight the, it's still there in Thor and the fact that people 678 00:41:15,500 --> 00:41:18,100 say it out loud means that not only only are they thinking it, 679 00:41:18,100 --> 00:41:21,500 they think it's socially acceptable, still The things 680 00:41:21,500 --> 00:41:25,500 I've been told by you know quite what men it men I've known quite 681 00:41:25,500 --> 00:41:30,400 a long time and music become out with all sorts of oh well 682 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,500 they're just not as good at making music as men you know 683 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,500 which is just shocking and actually my my retort to that to 684 00:41:38,500 --> 00:41:43,800 that one is there's been some really interesting and, you 685 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:48,500 know, I find quite funny, but fairly serious research done by 686 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:53,100 Professor. It's in You had Professor no 687 00:41:53,100 --> 00:41:58,200 Askin and he and his team analyzed, two million tracks 688 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,400 from Spotify by the Spotify database. 689 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,600 Going back to the 1950s. But all the way through to quite 690 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:09,700 recently, two million tracks and they found that women right more 691 00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:14,200 creative music by creative. I mean more unique, you know, 692 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,800 they had algorithms analyzing the music for uniqueness 693 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,800 novelty, More creative songs, they found women were Whiting 694 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:27,000 more, more creative songs which I you know. 695 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:32,100 So whichever way you look at it, the sexist responses are yeah we 696 00:42:32,100 --> 00:42:37,000 need to we need to challenge that with good research and and 697 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:42,000 data and start to turn, you know, this sort of sexist 698 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:47,700 Juggernaut around. Stop it and turn it around as 699 00:42:47,700 --> 00:42:50,600 it's really interesting and we could talk about You know, the 700 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,700 value of data is so important for pointing to things that we 701 00:42:53,700 --> 00:42:57,700 already know to be true, but view want to validate it and 702 00:42:57,700 --> 00:43:01,000 also overcome, you know, all that's just one person's 703 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:02,600 experience. And you're like, well, actually 704 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:06,100 here's 50 people and here's the common themes, you know, you're 705 00:43:06,500 --> 00:43:13,400 building a repertoire of referee Bowl evidence that we can point 706 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,000 to. And I think that's so important 707 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,400 to be able to let you said the things that need to change. 708 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,000 Then we have It's kind of, it's almost frustrating in a way 709 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,400 because you kind of wish we didn't need it, but at the same 710 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:30,900 time, it's really helpful. For overcoming those unconscious 711 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,800 bias and preconceived ideas, where people say to me, you 712 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,500 know, things like oh I work with loads of women in the music 713 00:43:37,500 --> 00:43:39,700 industry. So there that you know, they'd 714 00:43:39,700 --> 00:43:42,100 almost don't believe you that it's only twenty percent coming 715 00:43:42,100 --> 00:43:44,500 through and things like this. And you're like, but that's your 716 00:43:44,500 --> 00:43:49,000 individual experience and there's research that shows when 717 00:43:49,100 --> 00:43:55,900 they showed Films two men we'd like 35 or 40% women actors in 718 00:43:55,900 --> 00:43:59,000 the film and asked them to rate. What they thought the percentage 719 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,300 of the genders were in the film and they thought it was like 75 720 00:44:02,300 --> 00:44:03,900 percent or something. I'm not remembering the numbers 721 00:44:03,900 --> 00:44:07,100 correctly, but it was definitely that it was less than 50% and 722 00:44:07,108 --> 00:44:10,900 they rated it over 50%. And when it was 50% they rated 723 00:44:10,900 --> 00:44:14,600 it majority female because we're so trained like you said for a 724 00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:18,500 thousand years to see a lot of white men everywhere that when 725 00:44:18,500 --> 00:44:23,900 you see a few women or a few But of color, your human brain is 726 00:44:23,900 --> 00:44:28,500 like, oh, there's loads of women and it's just not as 727 00:44:28,500 --> 00:44:33,000 categorically not true. It's the it's the phenomenon of 728 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,900 the token. So especially if a minority 729 00:44:36,900 --> 00:44:43,000 group constitutes less than 15% of a particular group, they will 730 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,300 be tokenized and they will become more visible. 731 00:44:46,700 --> 00:44:49,400 They become the more noticeable because there's fewer of them. 732 00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:53,300 So they You know, it has this, you know, this sort of opposite 733 00:44:53,300 --> 00:44:57,800 opposite effect and what you know, was a one one thing are 734 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,400 you might have heard? Somebody might have said this to 735 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:05,600 you before, but one thing I'm often told when I say you know, 736 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:09,300 there's discrimination in a quality music especially against 737 00:45:09,300 --> 00:45:10,800 women. I'm told. 738 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,500 But what about a doubt, what had? 739 00:45:13,500 --> 00:45:17,900 It's the, what about a doubt phenomenon and I call her a 740 00:45:17,900 --> 00:45:22,000 super token because she Say visible. 741 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:27,700 She's super visible in the music industry and her incredible 742 00:45:27,900 --> 00:45:32,400 success is supposed to compensate for all of the 743 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,300 discrimination and harassment that just about every other 744 00:45:35,300 --> 00:45:40,200 woman in music has faced. So you know, equivalent Beyonce 745 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,100 in in America. What about Beyonce? 746 00:45:42,100 --> 00:45:45,100 But yeah, I've you know I can't tell you the number of times 747 00:45:45,100 --> 00:45:47,900 I've, you know, had that red that had that said to me, what 748 00:45:47,900 --> 00:45:51,600 about it now. It's really interesting it 749 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:55,400 because it's almost and I don't even know if those people who 750 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:59,000 think that are just genuinely, you know, lacking in knowledge 751 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,100 and education about it because this is such a cringy reference 752 00:46:02,100 --> 00:46:05,600 but and I don't watch Love Island but I there was a famous 753 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,700 clip from a love Island. Episode years ago where we 754 00:46:09,700 --> 00:46:14,000 Theresa May was was it 2-0 really female prime minister and 755 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,000 the the can't remember because I don't know when the show was 756 00:46:17,300 --> 00:46:19,900 that the clip was one of the guy at the contestants. 757 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,200 It's all going with one of the women that there was no sexism 758 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,100 in the UK because we had a female prime minister and it's 759 00:46:26,100 --> 00:46:29,300 the same concept isn't, it's like but there's one so there 760 00:46:29,300 --> 00:46:35,500 can't be like the same is, that's really interesting, isn't 761 00:46:35,500 --> 00:46:36,600 it? That like if you can point to 762 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,700 one, then that somehow invalidates the experience of 763 00:46:39,700 --> 00:46:43,700 thousands of other women's really interesting because it's 764 00:46:43,700 --> 00:46:45,400 super token. I like that. 765 00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:49,500 It's really good way of a token illustrating that point and 766 00:46:49,500 --> 00:46:51,300 thank you. So is there anything else you 767 00:46:51,308 --> 00:46:55,100 wanted to talk about or say about your research or your 768 00:46:55,100 --> 00:46:57,300 experience or anything else that you wanted to add that we 769 00:46:57,300 --> 00:47:00,000 haven't covered? Well I you know I just want to 770 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,700 say that there aren't, there are solutions that we can do 771 00:47:02,700 --> 00:47:05,200 something about this and we can't be more aware. 772 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,300 I think, you know, we have made great strides. 773 00:47:08,300 --> 00:47:14,500 The first time I did diversity research in music was like 2011, 774 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,600 you know, in all of in all of my campaigning and very, you know, 775 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:22,100 various things since then what I've Seen is more acceptance 776 00:47:22,100 --> 00:47:25,700 from the music industry that there is an issue and you know a 777 00:47:25,708 --> 00:47:29,200 greater desire to want to do something about it so you know 778 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:35,200 spring springing up or dozens and dozens of initiatives 779 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:40,300 not-for-profits you know all sorts of Charities projects 780 00:47:40,300 --> 00:47:44,400 going on that are looking at in a different different aspects 781 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,100 and wanting to do to do something to help. 782 00:47:46,100 --> 00:47:48,500 So that's the, you know, is the good news. 783 00:47:50,100 --> 00:47:52,500 You know, loads of people have given given support and 784 00:47:52,500 --> 00:47:56,300 different ways to be effortless project but we still have a way 785 00:47:56,300 --> 00:47:58,500 to go. We can't keep our foot off the 786 00:47:58,500 --> 00:48:03,300 accelerator accelerator. The music industry really needs 787 00:48:03,300 --> 00:48:08,800 to do more work work with these incredibly passionate Camp 788 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:13,500 campaigners more to really, you know, I will not be satisfied 789 00:48:13,500 --> 00:48:18,800 until until labels are 50/50 their sign. 790 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:23,600 And artists, you know, and the women up up the management 791 00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:25,300 levels to. So I'm just going to, I'm just 792 00:48:25,300 --> 00:48:27,400 going to keep going until we get there. 793 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:29,900 Great. Well, you do a great job and we 794 00:48:29,900 --> 00:48:33,700 really appreciate you. And like I said, it's it is. 795 00:48:33,700 --> 00:48:35,500 And I've had that experience talking to people as well. 796 00:48:35,500 --> 00:48:38,900 That it is getting better over time and I feel a sense of 797 00:48:38,900 --> 00:48:43,800 momentum in the last year or so in particular, I don't know it's 798 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,900 because it's also like a lines a lot with Society. 799 00:48:46,900 --> 00:48:50,500 Although in some ways the music industry You know, the pay Gap 800 00:48:50,500 --> 00:48:54,900 is more worse than in other sectors, but then in other ways, 801 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,000 the music industry can can be so Innovative. 802 00:48:58,100 --> 00:49:01,700 And there are, as you say there's a lot of women actually 803 00:49:01,700 --> 00:49:05,600 here who in the music industry, who are absolutely fed up with 804 00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:10,800 this nonsense and extremely motivated to make things better 805 00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,800 for everyone and that's great. So I'm really glad that you said 806 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:18,400 that and it's really nice to end on a more positive note and 807 00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,000 that's great. Are people listening as well? 808 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,500 Because you can, you can get involved in these campaigns. 809 00:49:22,500 --> 00:49:26,200 You can follow these groups. You can join respect. 810 00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,400 As we said for the male allies, you can support these 811 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,100 campaigners and yeah, there's lots going on with to get 812 00:49:33,100 --> 00:49:36,400 involved with, which is great and to put the pressure on, as 813 00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:38,400 you said to to focus on the solution. 814 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:42,100 So I'm really looking forward to hearing more about your 815 00:49:42,100 --> 00:49:44,800 research. Good luck with the rest of your 816 00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:50,600 PhD because I know PhD is really Black and honestly when I 817 00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:54,600 started my PhD I had no idea what I was getting myself into 818 00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,700 and I don't know that I would have agreed to do it if I had 819 00:49:57,700 --> 00:50:00,000 done but at the same time I was really glad I did. 820 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:01,900 It was such an amazing experience and I don't know if 821 00:50:01,900 --> 00:50:05,200 it's been the same for you, especially, because you do it 822 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,100 part-time, don't you? Yeah, I've done. 823 00:50:08,100 --> 00:50:11,600 So I'm in my fourth fourth year, part part time, and, and 824 00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,800 chuckling all of my different, you know, strands of my work is 825 00:50:16,100 --> 00:50:22,200 it is such a challenge and I you know, I've decided actually from 826 00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,300 talking with my supervisors from September. 827 00:50:24,300 --> 00:50:28,800 I'm going to do a year full time of study, because I want to, I 828 00:50:28,808 --> 00:50:32,000 want to do all of the analysis and writing up with as much 829 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,400 Focus as possible. So I'm just sorting out my 830 00:50:35,500 --> 00:50:38,800 economics to enable enable me to do that. 831 00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:42,600 So I can really, you know, if not fully completed, hopefully 832 00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,400 I'll be, you know, substantially near the end because I'm really 833 00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:48,800 impatient now to, you know, I've got a right. 834 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,000 In 2000 words. I really you know I know I need 835 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,500 I need some time to take that. I'm living it. 836 00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:58,000 I am living it. Yeah. 837 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,700 And actually I think that's a brilliant idea mate if it's 838 00:51:00,700 --> 00:51:02,900 possible because I mean it's not possible for everyone and I'm 839 00:51:02,900 --> 00:51:05,500 not suggesting for the for a minute that everyone should do a 840 00:51:05,508 --> 00:51:07,600 PhD because it's really is not for everybody. 841 00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:10,900 But if you are doing it, one of the greatest things I found 842 00:51:10,900 --> 00:51:15,100 about the experience was that ability to just like deep dive 843 00:51:15,100 --> 00:51:18,800 into a subject and think about it every day for four. 844 00:51:18,900 --> 00:51:22,300 Me, it was for three years straight and for some people 845 00:51:22,300 --> 00:51:23,500 that sounds like hell, that's what I mean. 846 00:51:23,500 --> 00:51:25,400 Like, for some people, they were absolutely not for me. 847 00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:29,000 It was like a special interest where I obsessed over this topic 848 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,000 for years and actually, that's such a privilege because when I 849 00:51:32,008 --> 00:51:35,300 was in life, would you really get the opportunity to do that? 850 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:41,200 And I think that process in itself is, is real kind of just 851 00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:47,200 amazing experience actually, which for me that my actual PhD 852 00:51:47,300 --> 00:51:49,100 research. I'm not even that really Heard 853 00:51:49,100 --> 00:51:51,000 about it. He was like move Beyond it but 854 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,700 where is with yours me because you're doing it different stage 855 00:51:53,700 --> 00:51:56,200 in your career where you've like figured out something that you 856 00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:57,600 want to focus on other than a problem. 857 00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:01,600 We want to help solve whereas I was just straight out of law, 858 00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:04,300 degree didn't know what to do with my life and sort of did it. 859 00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,200 So it was more. I took the most value I took 860 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,800 from the PHD experience was actually the the experience of 861 00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:13,500 doing the PHD more than the actual research that makes 862 00:52:13,500 --> 00:52:16,200 sense. So I don't expect that to be the 863 00:52:17,100 --> 00:52:19,400 fear. Yeah, although Oh, I am. 864 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,200 I am really and you know, it's a proof. 865 00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:25,200 It's a privilege to be able to go back to school in your 50s, 866 00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:29,100 you know? And and study although my mum 867 00:52:29,100 --> 00:52:31,700 says, I I thought you would do that. 868 00:52:31,700 --> 00:52:34,700 You ought, you know, when I was asked at school, when I was a 869 00:52:34,700 --> 00:52:37,100 scooted school-age, what did I want to do? 870 00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:42,200 Was basically stay at school to select, you know work for twit 871 00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:46,800 25 years and then go back to studying like this has been 872 00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:50,900 brilliant and you know and Will challenge. 873 00:52:50,900 --> 00:52:56,100 I have to say, you know, to get that academic brain in gear, but 874 00:52:56,100 --> 00:52:58,600 I've never read so much in my life. 875 00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,800 I am totally obsessed by this this subject. 876 00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,500 I love it. It's my, it is my favorite thing 877 00:53:04,500 --> 00:53:07,900 in the world. So that, you know, that is a 878 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,900 pleasure because I feel like I'm understanding human nature and 879 00:53:11,900 --> 00:53:15,700 behavior in a, you know, in a really fascinating way. 880 00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:20,500 So yes, I can't imagine how, you know, not not being totally 881 00:53:20,500 --> 00:53:24,100 obsessed or in love with your PhD research, question that 882 00:53:24,100 --> 00:53:27,700 would be terrible. I'm, you know, I'm very lucky in 883 00:53:27,700 --> 00:53:30,000 that. This is, this is my my passion. 884 00:53:30,100 --> 00:53:33,400 I mean, yeah, economically. It's been, you know, a terrible 885 00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,100 decision. We really do, you know, to do 886 00:53:36,100 --> 00:53:39,000 crazy thing to do to do any of any of 50s. 887 00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:43,000 But it's, it's what makes me tick and get out of bed every 888 00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:47,500 morning and, you know, and the and the really understanding how 889 00:53:47,500 --> 00:53:54,300 fantastic A research process and how rigorous it is, every step 890 00:53:54,300 --> 00:53:58,100 of the way, everything you have to go go through to construct, 891 00:53:58,100 --> 00:54:03,700 your PhD is a revelation. It's like, oh, that's that's why 892 00:54:03,700 --> 00:54:08,900 they're so well regarded kicked, you know, because it's tough. 893 00:54:08,900 --> 00:54:10,500 It was really, it's really tough. 894 00:54:10,500 --> 00:54:12,900 But I'm yeah, it is it is a privilege as well. 895 00:54:12,900 --> 00:54:15,100 So yeah, well I second you on that. 896 00:54:15,100 --> 00:54:17,600 I mean, it's amazing experience and I love what you said about 897 00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,300 it helps you to understand. And this, what I mean about the 898 00:54:20,300 --> 00:54:22,900 sub, the specific has basically. I did my whole PhD online 899 00:54:22,900 --> 00:54:25,200 section 17 of the copyright designs and patents act who 900 00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,100 cares. But that's not the bit I'm 901 00:54:28,100 --> 00:54:33,700 obsessed with copyright and and I always think of this quote 902 00:54:33,700 --> 00:54:36,500 from The Alchemist where he says, if you want to understand 903 00:54:36,500 --> 00:54:39,300 the whole world, you can study a grain of sand. 904 00:54:40,100 --> 00:54:42,100 And that's how I feel about the PHD not that. 905 00:54:42,100 --> 00:54:45,100 I understand the whole world by any means obviously, but that it 906 00:54:45,100 --> 00:54:51,500 gives you a deeper understanding of your Act and humans somehow 907 00:54:51,500 --> 00:54:55,300 because even if you're not doing I didn't do qualitative like 908 00:54:55,300 --> 00:54:59,700 interviews but because you study something so deeply and you and 909 00:54:59,700 --> 00:55:02,200 you just do your thinking and your analyzing and like you said 910 00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:06,300 your everything's constructed. It just that for me is like the 911 00:55:06,300 --> 00:55:10,000 most amazing opportunity. That a PhD can give you anyway. 912 00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,600 Sorry this is just turned into me loving and being so excited 913 00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:18,200 about your PhD. Yeah, just research in general. 914 00:55:18,900 --> 00:55:24,600 So my final question that I've asked everyone is to, if you 915 00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:30,400 could please share with us a favorite female music maker and 916 00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:32,900 maybe tell us a little bit about why. 917 00:55:32,900 --> 00:55:35,100 And I know that's a lot of pressure because there are so 918 00:55:35,100 --> 00:55:38,400 many to choose from so doesn't have to be your absolute 919 00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:40,400 favorite. Just a favorite. 920 00:55:40,900 --> 00:55:42,800 Yeah. And there's so there are so many 921 00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:45,400 aren't those. So you know I've had various 922 00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,700 names, you know, jumping jumping in. 923 00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,900 Into my head. But I have to, I have to admit, 924 00:55:51,900 --> 00:55:56,900 it makes it makes me laugh. Every time I put her music on, I 925 00:55:56,900 --> 00:56:00,000 think, one of my guilty pleasures is listening to 926 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,000 Grimes. I do you know, the elec 927 00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:06,400 electronic music and I'm laughing, you know, because 928 00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:08,600 she's, you know, she's quite a bit younger than me. 929 00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:13,200 It's, you know, I'm definitely, you know, not her her target age 930 00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:17,700 age group, but I just think she's real, you know, all of 931 00:56:17,700 --> 00:56:20,700 her. You know, this image, she's 932 00:56:20,700 --> 00:56:25,000 could constructed around herself, but also the fact that 933 00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:29,200 she's such a badass producer, I think that's what I love. 934 00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:33,000 She's, you know, she, I've watched lots of interviews with, 935 00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:37,500 with her, you know, claiming the technology claiming the role of 936 00:56:37,500 --> 00:56:43,500 producer, very fiercely, you know, and she writes such good 937 00:56:43,500 --> 00:56:45,800 Melodies and then she's doing everything. 938 00:56:46,100 --> 00:56:51,200 I just think she's amazing. So I, you know, yeah, I've got 939 00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:54,000 quite a, quite a few of her albums. 940 00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:56,700 I mean, I, you know, I will admit I've got, you know, I've 941 00:56:56,700 --> 00:57:00,600 got thousands of CDs, still, I'm very wedded to the physical 942 00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:04,400 format in my car. I've got, you know, I've usually 943 00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:09,400 got one or two Grimes albums in in my car, and yeah, just 944 00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:13,300 brilliant to drive along too and she's like, I love it. 945 00:57:14,100 --> 00:57:16,000 I love it. I don't even know if that counts 946 00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:17,900 as guilty, pleasure. I think it's just a pleasure. 947 00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:23,900 So, Thank you so much, Rick. And I will link to any resources 948 00:57:23,900 --> 00:57:27,800 that we mentioned in the podcast by oh, so please check that out 949 00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,200 and follow Vic's work. And we look route. 950 00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:34,400 Look forward to hearing more about your PhD and good luck 951 00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:37,500 with that final year, keep us updated. 952 00:57:37,500 --> 00:57:39,500 Thanks so much for coming to us today. 953 00:57:39,900 --> 00:57:42,700 Thank you. Thanks for listening. 954 00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:46,300 And if you enjoyed this episode, please like, share and 955 00:57:46,300 --> 00:57:47,100 subscribe.