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Anyway, anyway, hello and 
welcome to Whose Song Is It 

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Anyway? 
I'm Dr. Haley Brochure. 

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And for this special season of 
the podcast focusing on women in

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the music industry, I'll be your
host. 

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Hi, Michelle, thank you so much 
for coming on the podcast today.

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It's a pleasure. 
It's been it's been a long time 

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coming, so I'm really, really 
glad to be speaking with you. 

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Honestly, I'm buzzed like we 
have been trying it for a long 

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time. 
So I'm like, yes, it's finally 

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happening. 
So can you tell our listeners 

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who you are and what you do in 
the music industry? 

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OK, my name is Michelle 
Escofrey. 

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I am a singer-songwriter. 
I've been involved in music 

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practically all my life. 
I grew up in a singing family, 

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the Escofreys, all my older 
sisters. 

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My dad taught us all how to 
sing, and we were signed to 

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Atlantic Records back in the 
early 90s. 

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And then I was headhunted for 
another group called Truce that 

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was signed, also in the UK, to 
an independent label. 

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That's kind of where I cut my 
teeth as a songwriter and 

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realized that I really love 
songwriting more than being a 

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performer. 
And I was signed to ear my music

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publishing. 
And through that I think I 

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started kind of talking about 
music and talking about the 

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songwriting process and started 
getting invited to universities 

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to speak about music. 
Which then led me to become a 

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visiting lecturer, firstly at 
Westminster University and then 

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at various others. 
So I've been involved in 

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education for maybe about 15-16 
years maybe. 

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And I was the module leader for 
the Masters program at Tollyard 

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for a few years, so taught on 
their commercial songwriting and

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production program. 
And more recently I have been a 

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member of the Members Council at
PRS for Music for since 2018 and

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became president of the Members 
Council in 2021. 

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I'm like, okay, Can we all just 
take a second? 

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Like, oral history of this woman
is so incredible. 

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I mean, wow, there's so much to 
unpick there and I hope that we 

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can dive a little bit into. 
Let's unpick. 

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Let's unpack. 
That there is so much unpack, so

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I feel like I'm going to go 
backwards and do it in 

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chronological order, so we'll 
forget things. 

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So I love this story of the. 
You were saying about your dad 

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told you to sing and and you 
started is like a family thing 

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that's lovely and and how your 
your journey there and then how 

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it's like evolved over into this
like span of and then you've got

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all your fingers and all the 
pies and doing all of the things

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so take us back to that time we 
said when you you were a singer 

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and. 
What was your experience of the 

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music industry then? 
Like what? 

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How was that for you? 
I think that I was fortunate in 

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a way because I think I had a a 
real cushion. 

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I was really buffered a lot 
because I was the youngest in my

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family and there's quite an age 
gap. 

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I feel like I got buffered quite
a lot, so I would just kind of 

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turn up and sing. 
So I didn't really get involved 

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with some of the politics that 
were going on, for instance, 

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when we signed to Atlantic 
Records. 

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Because we were signed in in 
America, we weren't recognized 

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in the UK as being an actor. 
It's like, I know you're not 

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signed by the UK, you're an 
American actor. 

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We're like, no, we're born and 
bred in the UK What do you mean?

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So it's dealing with some of 
those politics. 

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And I think as you get into it, 
you start to understand that 

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there are so many different, I 
only say levels, but I guess 

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levels in a way, there's so many
different levels to the 

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industry. 
And there's so many different 

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barriers or hoops to kind of 
jump, jump over. 

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And so for me, I think 
creatively it was amazing 

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because I got to be with 
producers and have that kind of 

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open doorway. 
In a way, because I came in so 

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young, there was already a 
network, there was already a 

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community that my sisters had 
kind of developed. 

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So I was able to plug straight 
into that and go, what do you 

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think of this song? 
What do you think I should do 

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here And now that I now when I 
look back at it older, I 

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realized you were being 
mentored. 

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You were being mentored from a 
very young age and kind of 

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guided as to well don't do this,
do that or. 

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You know, totally ignore advice 
and go and do something. 

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Okay. 
That really didn't work. 

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Okay. 
Yeah, maybe I should have 

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listened to that. 
I think that that experience for

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me of the industry was quite 
different to say other people 

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that coming very cold and have 
to try and figure out Okay, who 

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do I send my demo to? 
Who do I speak to things like 

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that. 
I had a very different 

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experience in that regard. 
But I think it's, you know. 

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In my opinion, the music 
industry is very much about 

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relationships and it's about 
fostering and building and 

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nurturing those relationships 
because it all comes back 

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around, you know, for instance, 
I was trying to guide me back 

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in, gosh, when was it, 1999 or 
2000? 

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And now, you know, seeing Guy at
Warner's just running a thing, 

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it's it's a whole different 
experience. 

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And I speak to him in a very 
different way than I would have 

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done, you know, when I was 
freshly signed as this new 

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writer for my music publishing. 
But that community stays there, 

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and it just evolves as time goes
on. 

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It evolves in different ways. 
Yeah. 

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And actually, I totally agree 
with you that the music industry

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is about relationships. 
And that's actually, for me, my 

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favorite, one of my favorite 
things about it, You know what I

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mean? 
Like such a people industry. 

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You mean so many wonderful 
people. 

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And that's why it's so good to 
like, network and and grow that 

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community. 
And at its best, those moments, 

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it feels like a big family. 
Like it sounds so cheesy. 

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Yeah, it's true. 
But at its worst, if you're not 

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in with certain people, then 
you're kind of in the wilderness

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and it's trying to figure out, 
okay, how do I get to that 

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person or how do I manage to get
into these kind of rooms? 

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How do I get seen? 
How am I on the radar? 

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And I think now in some ways 
it's slightly more challenging 

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because, you know, I don't know,
Sometimes I feel like because of

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the Internet and social media, 
sometimes it can be even more 

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isolating. 
It's like a complete paradox, I 

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guess. 
I don't know. 

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It's like they're two opposite 
poles you have, you can, you can

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reach the World and you can have
this global community and things

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can be at your fingertips. 
But also because there's so many

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people now, there's so much 
music out there, you can get 

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lost as well. 
It's harder to be seen. 

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It's harder to be heard. 
So I think that there's two 

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things going on that that need 
to be navigated at all times. 

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Yeah. 
And it's interesting what you 

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said about feeling part of that 
community from early on, because

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one of the other interviews I 
did was with Vic Bane. 

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And she's doing this research, 
yeah, for her PhD, interviewing 

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women for the music industry. 
And I asked her, which I know is

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a question she would have asked 
all of the interviewees about, 

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you know what may, what what has
been an enabler to success for 

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women that face all these 
different barriers, whether 

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it's. 
Sexuality, race, gender, you 

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know, or economic circumstances?
And like was there a my question

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was like was there a common 
theme like personality wise like

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because I was thinking like are 
we all women who are doing it? 

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Like are you all rebels that are
just like fuck this, I'm not 

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playing your, do you know what I
mean? 

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I was like a personality trait. 
But you know, one of the first 

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things she said was community 
network. 

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Those actually are really 
important enablers that some 

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people fortunate to have and 
some people they don't have and 

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have to work to build that. 
But it's also quite empowering 

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that that is something you can 
build because it's the it's not 

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something that's totally out of 
your control like, although as 

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you say, it might be challenging
for different reasons. 

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And so that's really 
interesting. 

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But what's your answer to that? 
Like what do you think it is 

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about you? 
That has led you to succeed in 

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this industry. 
Gosh, that's a big question. 

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I think about that quite a lot. 
I think about the idea of 

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imposter syndrome quite, quite a
lot. 

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And in the last few years, I 
think that that word has come up

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more and more and more. 
And I always think about that in

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terms of myself because at first
I'd be like imposter syndrome. 

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I don't know that I had imposter
syndrome or have imposter 

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syndrome. 
What does that mean? 

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And for me, I guess it's that 
thing of. 

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Just ask, Just go for it. 
Just, you know, I was very much 

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driven. 
If I saw something and thought I

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want to do that, I was just 
going to go and do it. 

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And I don't really. 
I don't know. 

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And I don't know if it's 
sometimes a negative trait 

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because I don't see those. 
I don't. 

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That's not in my vocabulary. 
It's like, OK, no's not yet. 

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And actually that's where I want
to go. 

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And if it's not a straight Rd. 
we're going to go round the bend

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and see how if we can get to it 
another way. 

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And for me, it's always been 
that way that I've just thought 

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I want to, I want to do this 
thing or I want to go over there

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and I'm going to go over there. 
That's what I'm going to do. 

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And it's, you know, somehow, you
know, things work out or, you 

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know, that barrier that was 
there starts to starts to drop a

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little bit. 
Yeah, of course you get nose and

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of course you have. 
Barriers, but I think that if 

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you if you really want to go for
something, you will. 

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Yeah. 
So you're what I'm hearing is 

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like that. 
I love that that like 

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determination and kind of 
unwavering commitment to 

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yourself that you're like, I 
don't care what anybody else 

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says, I've decided I'm going 
over there and I'll get there 

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and you're just like a bump in 
the road if you're in my way. 

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Exactly. 
And The thing is, is that 

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you're, you know, for me 
personally, my gender and and my

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ethnicity should never ever be 
the deciding factor. 

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And I've always maintained that.
And in a lot of spaces, 

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particularly in studios, you 
know, you could be the only 

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female in the room and in other 
spaces you're the only black 

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woman in the room, you know or 
you're the only person of color 

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in the room. 
And that's always been a thing 

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that I've. 
For me personally, it's like 

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okay, Get comfortable with that.
Get comfortable with the fact 

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that you're the that only person
in the room. 

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And how do we change that? 
How do we make that different? 

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That's always been a thing for 
me, and it's something that I've

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always noticed, you know, there 
aren't that, you know, it's 

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changing now, but they're 
especially back, You know, in 

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the 90s there weren't a huge 
amount of women that were 

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producers or that were engineers
that you could be like, oh, wow,

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yeah. 
This person looks just like me. 

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OK, this is inspiring. 
It's just like I'm the only 

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person here in the room. 
Am I going to be heard today? 

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No. 
All right, then. 

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How do I make myself heard? 
You know, so it's always been 

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that it's and I maybe as 
well-being the youngest in the 

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family. 
It's that thing of how do I make

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myself heard? 
You know, how am I taken 

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seriously as the baby of the 
family? 

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So I've always had that kind of 
I'm going to push through. 

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I'm gonna make my voice heard. 
It's something that kind of 

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travels with me, and I think it 
served me well, Thank God. 

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Yeah, it's like you've had very 
early training on, like, OK, if 

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I wanna take up space, I have to
actively. 

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Own it. 
Do that, Yeah. 

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Yeah. 
And I love what you said about 

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feeling comfortable being the 
only woman or the only person of

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color in a room. 
And this has come up in other 

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conversations that people feel 
that lonely. 

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Yeah. 
When they are not seeing people 

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in the room that look like them.
And so I was just wondering if 

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thinking of those people, how 
would you share with them about 

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how did you become comfortable 
or work towards feeling more 

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comfortable in that situation? 
Yeah. 

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I think for myself it was about 
looking at my skills, looking at

225
00:12:38,570 --> 00:12:43,250
my skill set and looking at what
I do rather than what I look 

226
00:12:43,250 --> 00:12:44,650
like. 
Or you know. 

227
00:12:45,050 --> 00:12:47,410
This is what I'm bringing to 
this table. 

228
00:12:47,610 --> 00:12:49,490
This is what I'm bringing to 
this room. 

229
00:12:49,690 --> 00:12:53,890
It has nothing to do with my 
gender, my sexual orientation, 

230
00:12:53,890 --> 00:12:58,290
my sexuality, my ethnicity. 
It has everything to do with my 

231
00:12:58,290 --> 00:13:02,170
capability and my skill set. 
And I was very, very clear on 

232
00:13:02,170 --> 00:13:04,730
that. 
And I remain very clear on that.

233
00:13:04,890 --> 00:13:09,250
And I, and I guess my my REM, it
always is. 

234
00:13:09,450 --> 00:13:12,500
Let's look at what they can do. 
You know, before we judge 

235
00:13:12,580 --> 00:13:15,100
anything else, what are they 
capable of? 

236
00:13:15,380 --> 00:13:18,540
And and that's really the 
deciding factor for me. 

237
00:13:18,540 --> 00:13:21,420
We don't go with something just 
because it's tick boxing. 

238
00:13:21,620 --> 00:13:25,460
We don't go with something to 
fill a gap, we go with something

239
00:13:25,460 --> 00:13:28,740
because that skill is very 
apparent and that's what I've 

240
00:13:28,740 --> 00:13:32,540
watched really hard to do in 
terms of even in terms of my 

241
00:13:32,540 --> 00:13:36,860
songs, it's let's judge it by 
the quality of the song rather 

242
00:13:36,860 --> 00:13:39,460
than who's behind the song and 
because. 

243
00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:44,080
You know, I ran the risk of 
being pigeonholed a lot early in

244
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,720
my career because it was, oh, 
you're a black girl, you must 

245
00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:49,800
write R&B. 
Oh, you must write gospel. 

246
00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,480
Oh, you must do this kind of 
music and fighting that 

247
00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,720
pigeonholing, literally. 
I was doing white labels. 

248
00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,480
I was sending songs to A and R's
without my name on it, getting 

249
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,080
somebody else to vocal it 
because my voice is very 

250
00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,280
distinctive. 
So it's like, okay, I don't want

251
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,190
them to know I wrote this song. 
So let me get someone else to 

252
00:14:08,190 --> 00:14:11,350
vocal it, send it in anyway. 
And it's like, Oh yeah, we love 

253
00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:12,510
it. 
Yeah, I wrote that. 

254
00:14:12,750 --> 00:14:16,510
So it was ways of kind of 
breaking out of that box. 

255
00:14:16,790 --> 00:14:21,310
And I guess what I would say is 
what, get really clear on what 

256
00:14:21,310 --> 00:14:24,590
it is that you offer, what it is
that you bring to the table. 

257
00:14:24,910 --> 00:14:26,430
I'm gonna be really confident in
that. 

258
00:14:26,910 --> 00:14:29,270
I love that. 
I think it also relates back to 

259
00:14:29,350 --> 00:14:31,510
what you said about imposter 
syndrome, because that's 

260
00:14:31,510 --> 00:14:35,070
probably good advice for 
imposter syndrome as well. 

261
00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:42,480
And knowing that, you know, we 
we've grown up in a society that

262
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,520
doesn't automatically make us 
feel like we have permission to 

263
00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:47,040
be in the room and to take up 
space. 

264
00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:52,440
But so it feels strange to have 
to, like, pep talk ourselves 

265
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,440
into doing that. 
But that's not actually on us, 

266
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,520
is it? 
Like we're unlearning what 

267
00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:03,360
society has taught us and 
therefore that's why it takes 

268
00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:08,200
these kind of mindsets. 
To overcome that, and why 

269
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,960
imposter syndrome is so common, 
And I mean all of the women that

270
00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,320
I spoke to have mentioned that. 
So. 

271
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,440
It's obviously that's, which I 
think also helps because it's 

272
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,280
like you're not alone. 
Yes. 

273
00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:22,800
You're not alone. 
Loads of us and I always tell 

274
00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,440
the story of because people are 
like you know, Copyright is my 

275
00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,730
area of expertise. 
I've got PhD on it, written 

276
00:15:29,730 --> 00:15:33,810
books on it, and sometimes I 
revise my own work before I do 

277
00:15:33,810 --> 00:15:36,650
an interview and I'm like, 
what's up with you? 

278
00:15:38,650 --> 00:15:39,930
Yes. 
Absolutely. 

279
00:15:40,730 --> 00:15:44,010
You've got a laugh, haven't you?
Because you're like, that's, but

280
00:15:44,010 --> 00:15:46,650
it's about being compassionate 
to yourself as well, not being 

281
00:15:46,650 --> 00:15:49,290
hard on yourself. 
Like, why do I feel like this? 

282
00:15:49,290 --> 00:15:51,250
Because that just makes. 
It worse, Yeah. 

283
00:15:51,810 --> 00:15:55,250
And I think that's another theme
that has come up like the way 

284
00:15:55,250 --> 00:15:58,340
you speak. 
About yourself and your journey 

285
00:15:58,380 --> 00:16:01,220
is very compassionate. 
I get the feeling kind of 

286
00:16:01,220 --> 00:16:02,740
friends with yourself, do you 
know what I mean? 

287
00:16:03,580 --> 00:16:08,860
Which is so radical, like lots 
of people struggle so much with 

288
00:16:08,860 --> 00:16:11,340
that. 
And I think it's a journey I 

289
00:16:11,340 --> 00:16:14,260
definitely a journey I've been 
on and it's not something people

290
00:16:14,300 --> 00:16:18,140
necessarily or some people may 
be lucky enough to just wake up.

291
00:16:19,070 --> 00:16:22,070
And love themselves and and feel
worthy and that they can. 

292
00:16:22,350 --> 00:16:22,830
Yeah. 
Good. 

293
00:16:23,190 --> 00:16:25,030
I mean happy for you. 
I agree with you. 

294
00:16:25,030 --> 00:16:28,790
I do think it's a journey and I 
think it's a constant journey as

295
00:16:28,790 --> 00:16:30,550
well. 
And the more that we're 

296
00:16:30,550 --> 00:16:34,070
bombarded with you know, oh but 
you're not good at this and oh, 

297
00:16:34,070 --> 00:16:36,990
but this isn't great. 
It's like turn that on its head.

298
00:16:37,230 --> 00:16:42,230
You know when we, when we were 
performing every show, my dad at

299
00:16:42,230 --> 00:16:46,280
the end of the show would. 
Would critique and say this was 

300
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,280
great, this was great. 
This was great. 

301
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,280
You need to improve that. 
So it was always okay. 

302
00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,680
I know that there's things that 
I need to improve but I also 

303
00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:56,160
know that there's things that 
I'm good at. 

304
00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,240
And I think that we especially 
as women, we need to flip that 

305
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,000
on its head because we always 
discount ourselves. 

306
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,319
You know, I'm. 
I'm a trustee for PRS Foundation

307
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,660
and. 
When we're when we noticed that 

308
00:17:10,780 --> 00:17:13,339
women are not even putting 
themselves forward, women, you 

309
00:17:13,339 --> 00:17:16,260
know are are discounting 
themselves because they're 

310
00:17:16,260 --> 00:17:20,619
looking and going, oh, I don't 
hit all of the criteria and it's

311
00:17:20,619 --> 00:17:23,540
like, well, you don't have to 
hit all of the criteria if do 

312
00:17:23,540 --> 00:17:26,480
you hit 50%, do you hit 60%? 
Yes, you do. 

313
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,040
OK. 
So then there's room for you to 

314
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:32,000
learn and improve. 
Apply, you know, so actually 

315
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,240
getting ourselves to a place 
where we know that we've got 

316
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,520
things to learn, but everyone 
has things to learn. 

317
00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,360
We all do. 
No one's. 

318
00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:42,360
I don't think there's anybody 
that knows everything, you know.

319
00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,560
So being able to be in that 
space where it's like, OK, what?

320
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,280
What, again, I'm going back to 
what are my skills? 

321
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,760
What am I good at? 
OK And then what could I expand 

322
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:52,680
on? 
Yeah, I can put myself forward 

323
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:54,480
for that. 
I think I could do that. 

324
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,420
And I think. 
You touched on it earlier. 

325
00:17:57,700 --> 00:18:00,300
It it's also about communicating
with each other. 

326
00:18:00,820 --> 00:18:04,180
One thing that I've been what 
I've found really useful in the 

327
00:18:04,180 --> 00:18:09,300
last couple of years is having a
network of of women to bounce 

328
00:18:09,300 --> 00:18:12,620
ideas with to, you know, maybe 
even complain to and then 

329
00:18:12,620 --> 00:18:15,380
realize, oh, we're all in the 
same boat, everybody's 

330
00:18:15,380 --> 00:18:18,020
experiencing this thing. 
Oh, right. 

331
00:18:18,430 --> 00:18:20,750
I'm not by myself and I'm not 
going crazy. 

332
00:18:20,910 --> 00:18:24,590
And that's been so empowering 
because it's like, OK, what tips

333
00:18:24,590 --> 00:18:26,430
have you got? 
All right, well, I'll show you. 

334
00:18:26,510 --> 00:18:28,230
I'll share my notes if you share
yours. 

335
00:18:28,710 --> 00:18:33,230
And just feeling like actually, 
we can do this, yeah, we can for

336
00:18:33,230 --> 00:18:34,510
sure. 
Totally. 

337
00:18:34,510 --> 00:18:37,590
And I yeah, I completely agree 
with you that the feeling of 

338
00:18:37,910 --> 00:18:42,390
growing community and knowledge 
exchange is it is so empowering.

339
00:18:42,950 --> 00:18:44,630
So. 
Important, I think. 

340
00:18:45,490 --> 00:18:49,530
Secrecy in the music industry is
a way to displace power. 

341
00:18:50,650 --> 00:18:54,050
So just opening up and sharing, 
I'm going through this or I got 

342
00:18:54,050 --> 00:18:57,530
paid this much to do that or I 
applied to this even though I 

343
00:18:57,570 --> 00:19:01,650
only had 60% of the criteria. 
Like you said, people are doing 

344
00:19:01,690 --> 00:19:04,770
that and there's there's loads 
of research that supports what 

345
00:19:04,770 --> 00:19:08,010
you're saying in terms of men 
are more likely to apply for 

346
00:19:08,010 --> 00:19:09,490
things they're less qualified 
for. 

347
00:19:10,500 --> 00:19:13,380
Yeah, and I always keep that in 
my mind whenever I'm applying 

348
00:19:13,380 --> 00:19:16,020
for something because I'm like, 
all right, well, if I was a 

349
00:19:16,020 --> 00:19:18,900
bloke, I would just apply for 
this and they would have the 

350
00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:23,300
same CV as me. 
It's just that I'm a woman and 

351
00:19:23,300 --> 00:19:27,620
I'm trained to apply when I've 
got 95 to 100% of the criteria. 

352
00:19:27,620 --> 00:19:30,180
And that is actually not 
necessary. 

353
00:19:30,540 --> 00:19:32,780
So just and it's terrifying, but
go for it. 

354
00:19:32,780 --> 00:19:35,500
And I found the more you do it, 
the less scary it becomes, 

355
00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:36,300
obviously. 
And then. 

356
00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:38,820
Yeah, so I'm really glad you 
said that. 

357
00:19:39,100 --> 00:19:41,300
I also do some work with help 
musicians and they have the 

358
00:19:41,300 --> 00:19:46,180
exact same statistics that 
they're really doing, trying to 

359
00:19:46,220 --> 00:19:48,700
encourage more women to apply. 
So if you're listening to this 

360
00:19:48,700 --> 00:19:51,860
and you're a woman who makes 
music, check out these funds and

361
00:19:51,860 --> 00:19:56,860
foundations because they are 
really keen to support women and

362
00:19:57,300 --> 00:19:59,820
it's a two way St. because 
you've got to put yourself 

363
00:19:59,820 --> 00:20:00,900
forward. 
Otherwise if you don't put 

364
00:20:00,900 --> 00:20:03,420
yourself out there, it's not 
going to going to happen, is it?

365
00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:06,380
Exactly. 
And that's that's, you know, 

366
00:20:06,580 --> 00:20:09,580
another thing, isn't it? 
It's visibility, because you do 

367
00:20:09,580 --> 00:20:14,500
have so many women doing amazing
things, but no one knows, No one

368
00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:17,220
knows anything about them 
because they're not visible, you

369
00:20:17,220 --> 00:20:19,100
know, well, they're not on 
people's radar. 

370
00:20:19,500 --> 00:20:23,180
So it's it's also getting 
comfortable talking about what 

371
00:20:23,180 --> 00:20:26,020
you do. 
And I I speak to myself when I 

372
00:20:26,020 --> 00:20:29,180
say that as well because a lot 
of the time I just go, oh, I 

373
00:20:29,180 --> 00:20:30,580
just do it. 
Oh, no, I don't want to talk 

374
00:20:30,580 --> 00:20:31,420
about that. 
Oh no. 

375
00:20:31,420 --> 00:20:33,900
Do I have to do this interview? 
Why It's important. 

376
00:20:33,940 --> 00:20:37,020
It's really important. 
And it's for other people to see

377
00:20:37,020 --> 00:20:39,460
and go, oh, they're doing that. 
I can do it. 

378
00:20:39,820 --> 00:20:41,420
Let me try that. 
You know. 

379
00:20:41,540 --> 00:20:44,740
And that's that's so key, so 
key. 

380
00:20:44,740 --> 00:20:48,700
And there's been so many people 
that I've met, especially over 

381
00:20:48,700 --> 00:20:50,940
the last few years. 
It's like, what did you say? 

382
00:20:50,980 --> 00:20:52,980
You did it. 
And then they reel all this 

383
00:20:52,980 --> 00:20:55,540
stuff up in your life. 
I didn't know you did that. 

384
00:20:55,580 --> 00:20:58,540
Oh my God, that's amazing. 
And you're thinking, why don't 

385
00:20:58,540 --> 00:21:00,020
you talk about this stuff? 
Why don't? 

386
00:21:00,530 --> 00:21:02,970
Where do I find this? 
How do I not know this stuff 

387
00:21:02,970 --> 00:21:05,690
about you? 
So it is about being visible and

388
00:21:05,690 --> 00:21:08,050
just sharing, sharing with other
people. 

389
00:21:08,050 --> 00:21:09,610
And then you think about those 
people. 

390
00:21:09,810 --> 00:21:14,050
You know when you're networking 
and people know what you do when

391
00:21:14,050 --> 00:21:17,050
you're now thinking who can I 
get to do this, they come to 

392
00:21:17,050 --> 00:21:19,810
your mind, you know, and you can
put people forward. 

393
00:21:19,810 --> 00:21:23,370
I'm really a strong believer in.
I'm a bit of a shelter in. 

394
00:21:23,410 --> 00:21:27,050
And when I say that, what I mean
is it's if if I know somebody 

395
00:21:27,050 --> 00:21:29,570
that's good at something. 
I will recommend them. 

396
00:21:29,690 --> 00:21:31,610
I will shout about them. 
You need to go and check this 

397
00:21:31,610 --> 00:21:33,690
person out because they're 
really, really, really good. 

398
00:21:33,690 --> 00:21:37,290
And I think that that's really 
important to be able to shout 

399
00:21:37,290 --> 00:21:40,890
about each other and say check 
this person out or go and meet 

400
00:21:40,890 --> 00:21:43,130
with that person because you 
know what their their view on 

401
00:21:43,130 --> 00:21:46,930
this is is really unique. 
Check out this engineer, check 

402
00:21:46,930 --> 00:21:51,490
out this data analyst. 
Because they're so thorough, you

403
00:21:51,490 --> 00:21:53,970
know what I mean? 
It's really important to to 

404
00:21:53,970 --> 00:21:58,250
shout about each other and to 
kind of raise, raise our level 

405
00:21:58,250 --> 00:22:00,370
together, I think. 
Totally. 

406
00:22:00,370 --> 00:22:04,130
Like I'm exact same. 
I think cheerleading each other 

407
00:22:04,130 --> 00:22:07,490
is so, and I get so much joy 
from it myself. 

408
00:22:07,490 --> 00:22:10,930
It's almost like a selfish good 
deed because it's so lovely to 

409
00:22:10,930 --> 00:22:12,930
be like check out this person, 
they're amazing. 

410
00:22:12,930 --> 00:22:15,530
And then especially if it leads 
to something and you see 

411
00:22:15,530 --> 00:22:18,850
something and you're like that 
person, you're like I. 

412
00:22:19,450 --> 00:22:23,690
You just, these things happen 
and you just feel like that's 

413
00:22:23,690 --> 00:22:26,970
the kind of world I want to live
in where we are cheering each 

414
00:22:26,970 --> 00:22:29,010
other on, not putting each other
down. 

415
00:22:29,050 --> 00:22:32,250
And so that's all, you know, 
everything you just said. 

416
00:22:32,330 --> 00:22:34,930
Completely agree. 
Okay. 

417
00:22:34,930 --> 00:22:43,650
So let's speed up to the sort of
more recent era of your legacy, 

418
00:22:43,650 --> 00:22:48,550
I'm going to call it. 
How do you think that the 

419
00:22:48,550 --> 00:22:53,230
challenges faced by women and 
women of color in particular, 

420
00:22:53,230 --> 00:22:56,390
because obviously the statistics
show not that we need 

421
00:22:56,390 --> 00:23:00,630
statistics. 
We know they they there's more 

422
00:23:00,630 --> 00:23:06,310
barriers, the more baggage 
people can carry. 

423
00:23:07,510 --> 00:23:09,510
So do you think there's been a 
change over time? 

424
00:23:09,940 --> 00:23:13,860
And how has that been in your 
experience over like sort of 

425
00:23:13,860 --> 00:23:17,460
looking back overall? 
That's a juicy 1:00. 

426
00:23:18,380 --> 00:23:21,100
I definitely feel that there 
have been some changes. 

427
00:23:21,140 --> 00:23:25,420
There are definitely more black 
women in space, which is 

428
00:23:25,420 --> 00:23:27,460
fantastic. 
It's great to see. 

429
00:23:28,220 --> 00:23:31,900
I might be a little bit 
controversial, but the buzzword 

430
00:23:31,980 --> 00:23:35,020
of diversity sometimes really 
annoys me. 

431
00:23:35,060 --> 00:23:38,100
Bothers me just from the mere 
fact that. 

432
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:43,600
Diversity is so broad and so 
vast, and it is so many things, 

433
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,320
you know, For me, when I when I 
talk about diversity, I talk 

434
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,280
about it on every level, whether
that is where you were educated,

435
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,920
where you were born, how you 
grew up, what genre of music you

436
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:59,480
do, you know, whether you have 
what people see as a disability 

437
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,560
or not. 
All these things feed into 

438
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,200
diversity. 
It's not just one thing, you 

439
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,040
know, It's not just. 
Ethnicity. 

440
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,560
And it's not just gender. 
So that kind of annoys me a 

441
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,760
little bit when we start to talk
about diversity. 

442
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:18,760
And it's like just one thing, or
it gets kind of watered down in 

443
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,600
a way because we have to include
absolutely everyone. 

444
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,120
Yeah. 
But there are some people that 

445
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,200
are at the bottom of the the 
rung. 

446
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,200
You know, there are some people 
that really don't get much help 

447
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,400
at all. 
And what are we doing about 

448
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,440
those groups of people? 
So from that point of view. 

449
00:24:34,790 --> 00:24:37,470
That's why I say it's a bit of a
buzzword at the moment and it's 

450
00:24:37,470 --> 00:24:40,790
like, well, I I rather look at 
it as inclusion. 

451
00:24:40,830 --> 00:24:44,110
How do we include everyone into 
the conversation? 

452
00:24:44,310 --> 00:24:48,950
How do we include everyone in 
terms of how we are working as 

453
00:24:48,990 --> 00:24:53,230
organizations, as businesses, as
creatives? 

454
00:24:53,630 --> 00:24:58,190
How do we become a lot more 
inclusive rather than, you know,

455
00:24:58,430 --> 00:25:02,790
diversity and recognizing our 
differences, it's like okay. 

456
00:25:03,500 --> 00:25:07,300
How do we include people? 
So that's kind of where I'm at 

457
00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:10,060
with it. 
In terms of what that looks 

458
00:25:10,060 --> 00:25:14,380
like, particularly in in PRS, in
our organization, it's okay. 

459
00:25:14,380 --> 00:25:17,820
How do we become more inclusive 
and what does that look like? 

460
00:25:18,140 --> 00:25:22,540
Is that a change in language? 
Do we communicate with creatives

461
00:25:22,540 --> 00:25:25,180
differently than we communicate,
say with executives? 

462
00:25:25,460 --> 00:25:28,420
And what does that language look
like, you know, and really, 

463
00:25:28,420 --> 00:25:30,420
really digging into those 
things. 

464
00:25:30,850 --> 00:25:34,570
As black women in the space, 
yes, we are the last people to 

465
00:25:34,570 --> 00:25:37,610
be thought about. 
You know, when when we go for 

466
00:25:37,610 --> 00:25:40,770
things like, Oh well, are you 
professional? 

467
00:25:40,970 --> 00:25:44,570
Oh well, your hair's curly. 
It's not really a professional 

468
00:25:44,570 --> 00:25:45,690
look. 
Things like that. 

469
00:25:45,690 --> 00:25:47,250
It grows out of my scalp, of 
course. 

470
00:25:47,410 --> 00:25:50,290
What's your problem? 
You know, things like that and 

471
00:25:50,290 --> 00:25:53,820
also this kind of. 
Presumption that you're 

472
00:25:53,820 --> 00:25:57,020
inexperienced. 
You know, when I decided to go 

473
00:25:57,020 --> 00:25:59,820
for president, it was really 
interesting in the conversations

474
00:25:59,820 --> 00:26:02,100
because it was like, Oh no, 
maybe you don't have enough 

475
00:26:02,100 --> 00:26:04,100
experience to do that kind of 
role. 

476
00:26:04,100 --> 00:26:07,140
And it's like, okay. 
I've been in the industry like 

477
00:26:07,140 --> 00:26:09,020
30 years. 
How much more experience do I 

478
00:26:09,020 --> 00:26:10,540
need? 
I've been writing songs for most

479
00:26:10,540 --> 00:26:13,500
of my life. 
If I can't speak to a membership

480
00:26:13,540 --> 00:26:17,300
of music creators, songwriters 
and composers and people that 

481
00:26:17,500 --> 00:26:20,220
I've been in rooms with, I know 
that journey. 

482
00:26:20,540 --> 00:26:22,000
Who can? 
You know what? 

483
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,280
What does that experience 
actually look like? 

484
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,240
So it's all, yeah, it's all very
interesting. 

485
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,120
I think that it's great to see 
so many people of color in the 

486
00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:34,480
space. 
What I'm concerned with is, is 

487
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,080
it performative and is it 
tokenistic? 

488
00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:41,080
Is it, oh God, we have to do 
this Now to tick a box, we have 

489
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,400
to we we've got this charter to 
complete and it has to be done 

490
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,720
rather than, as I said before, 
we're looking at this because of

491
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,820
your skill set. 
You're really great at your job.

492
00:26:52,820 --> 00:26:56,380
And actually, yes, we are 
completely up for having more 

493
00:26:56,380 --> 00:27:01,860
inclusion and having a wider set
of voices that influence our 

494
00:27:01,860 --> 00:27:06,140
businesses and make it more 
productive, make it more, what's

495
00:27:06,140 --> 00:27:10,860
the word I'm looking for, more 
exciting and more reflective of 

496
00:27:11,140 --> 00:27:13,500
of the society that we actually 
really do live in. 

497
00:27:13,660 --> 00:27:18,780
I think that that's where I'm 
very conscious of okay, But why 

498
00:27:18,780 --> 00:27:20,860
are we making this decision? 
What? 

499
00:27:21,170 --> 00:27:25,530
Are we taking a box or are we 
actually doing this to make real

500
00:27:25,530 --> 00:27:27,410
change? 
And real change is what I'm 

501
00:27:27,410 --> 00:27:29,610
really interested in. 
Yeah, Well, thank you. 

502
00:27:29,850 --> 00:27:32,570
I don't know if that was 
controversial, but thank you for

503
00:27:33,450 --> 00:27:36,850
we're here for it. 
I'm here for the controversy to 

504
00:27:36,850 --> 00:27:41,850
hear people's different views. 
And what you're saying is so 

505
00:27:41,890 --> 00:27:44,690
important. 
And I think so. 

506
00:27:44,690 --> 00:27:48,930
I'm really glad you shared that.
And it's a difficult one, isn't 

507
00:27:48,930 --> 00:27:52,580
it, for people who are like. 
We talked about this on one of 

508
00:27:52,580 --> 00:27:56,180
the other episodes about the 
difference between equity and 

509
00:27:56,180 --> 00:27:59,100
equality. 
And it's like you can be 

510
00:27:59,180 --> 00:28:05,020
motivated to, like you said, 
tick the boxes and have say like

511
00:28:05,020 --> 00:28:08,900
you're looking at who you employ
and you want to be more 

512
00:28:08,900 --> 00:28:10,580
inclusive. 
Well, I love the way you use the

513
00:28:10,580 --> 00:28:12,500
language because I would 
completely agree with you that 

514
00:28:12,500 --> 00:28:15,700
like for some reason for me 
diversity and diversify. 

515
00:28:15,700 --> 00:28:18,140
It's like. 
It's a sounds I don't know I 

516
00:28:18,140 --> 00:28:22,540
just the connotations of that is
like hire a disabled person hire

517
00:28:22,540 --> 00:28:26,300
a black person and go home and 
have lunch and it's like but 

518
00:28:26,300 --> 00:28:29,460
there's there's so much research
that shows that that doesn't 

519
00:28:29,460 --> 00:28:32,020
even there's no longevity to 
that you're. 

520
00:28:32,660 --> 00:28:34,740
Just. 
Slapping a plaster on the 

521
00:28:34,740 --> 00:28:38,900
problem, it's going to get you 
nowhere in the end. 

522
00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:43,060
You will still have 
discriminatory culture in your 

523
00:28:43,300 --> 00:28:45,940
employment or in and in the 
world if. 

524
00:28:46,670 --> 00:28:49,030
Yeah, continue instead. 
What you need to do is that deep

525
00:28:49,030 --> 00:28:50,950
work. 
And that's why I love what you 

526
00:28:50,950 --> 00:28:54,870
said about inclusion, because 
the inclusivity and inclusion, 

527
00:28:54,870 --> 00:28:58,030
for me it just feels like such 
more of a doing word it's. 

528
00:28:58,310 --> 00:29:00,150
Like. 
We're going to actively make 

529
00:29:00,150 --> 00:29:04,110
this space feel inclusive and 
welcoming for everyone. 

530
00:29:04,390 --> 00:29:09,350
Yeah, Different needs and all 
different experiences in in 

531
00:29:09,350 --> 00:29:12,190
life. 
And so yeah, I think it's really

532
00:29:12,190 --> 00:29:14,870
powerful what you said. 
And also you know for. 

533
00:29:15,390 --> 00:29:18,590
Somebody, somebody that comes 
from a different community, a 

534
00:29:18,590 --> 00:29:22,750
different background, you'd also
question, why am I being asked 

535
00:29:22,750 --> 00:29:25,470
to do this? 
Why am I being employed? 

536
00:29:25,670 --> 00:29:28,190
Why all of a sudden it's like, 
oh, you're the popular kid. 

537
00:29:28,590 --> 00:29:32,830
It's like, am I being hired on 
my merit and my and the work 

538
00:29:32,830 --> 00:29:36,750
that I can do or am I being 
hired to tick a box? 

539
00:29:37,030 --> 00:29:40,190
You know, and no one's silly. 
No one. 

540
00:29:40,350 --> 00:29:43,150
We, we know the difference. 
You know, it's that thing where 

541
00:29:43,230 --> 00:29:46,350
you've got no job description. 
Like, Oh no, we just want you 

542
00:29:46,590 --> 00:29:49,070
come and do what you do. 
What does that mean? 

543
00:29:49,390 --> 00:29:53,230
You know, things like that. 
It's like actually, no, we'd 

544
00:29:53,230 --> 00:29:57,110
like a job description and we 
want KPI's just like everyone 

545
00:29:57,110 --> 00:30:00,110
else and we want to know that 
we're doing a great job. 

546
00:30:00,550 --> 00:30:03,710
So, but those are the things 
that I think that we need to be 

547
00:30:03,710 --> 00:30:08,070
more aware of and really look at
raising the bar together. 

548
00:30:08,390 --> 00:30:11,790
You know, we're talking about 
progress and progression. 

549
00:30:12,270 --> 00:30:15,150
Make sure that we are doing that
in the right way. 

550
00:30:15,190 --> 00:30:18,750
And we're doing it so that like 
you said, it has longevity. 

551
00:30:18,830 --> 00:30:24,230
So that in five years time when 
there are 30%, you know, of 

552
00:30:24,230 --> 00:30:27,870
women in the company or there's 
more ethnicity in the company. 

553
00:30:28,070 --> 00:30:29,630
But they're the ones that are 
shining. 

554
00:30:29,790 --> 00:30:32,870
They're the ones that have come 
in with the bright ideas. 

555
00:30:33,070 --> 00:30:37,950
They're the ones that are taking
tipping, you know, taking it way

556
00:30:37,950 --> 00:30:40,510
over the edge because they're 
brilliant, you know. 

557
00:30:40,940 --> 00:30:43,460
Yeah. 
And given equal kind of support 

558
00:30:43,460 --> 00:30:47,260
and opportunity because it's so 
clear that, like you said, 

559
00:30:47,260 --> 00:30:50,860
people can just, Oh yeah, come 
and work here and like answer 

560
00:30:50,860 --> 00:30:53,660
the phone or something. 
And then in five years time, 

561
00:30:53,660 --> 00:30:56,140
that person's not been promoted,
not been given a pay rise, not 

562
00:30:56,140 --> 00:30:58,940
helping a pay gap. 
It's not helping the culture of 

563
00:30:58,940 --> 00:31:02,180
the organization. 
It's not helping progression, 

564
00:31:02,380 --> 00:31:04,780
you know, And we all want to 
progress and we all should 

565
00:31:04,780 --> 00:31:08,300
progress. 
Yeah, so if someone is listening

566
00:31:08,300 --> 00:31:11,170
to this and they're like. 
So I really thought I was, 

567
00:31:11,170 --> 00:31:14,530
because sometimes I think 
people, you know, have a lot of 

568
00:31:14,530 --> 00:31:18,650
work to do and some people have 
good intentions, but they don't 

569
00:31:18,650 --> 00:31:24,050
know how. 
And I think those, for me, 

570
00:31:24,530 --> 00:31:26,610
that's my crowd. 
Because I'm like, if you're 

571
00:31:26,610 --> 00:31:29,650
willing and you're up for it, 
you just like, feel a bit lost 

572
00:31:29,650 --> 00:31:32,690
and nervous and scared. 
People ask me things about like.

573
00:31:34,660 --> 00:31:37,620
You know, how do I do that? 
Because I want to be supportive,

574
00:31:37,620 --> 00:31:39,780
but I also don't want to come 
across like I'm being 

575
00:31:39,780 --> 00:31:42,900
performative, which is a hard 
line to sort of walk on. 

576
00:31:43,620 --> 00:31:47,220
And so but those are the people.
Those are the people we can work

577
00:31:47,220 --> 00:31:50,700
with because they're willing. 
So thinking of those people 

578
00:31:50,700 --> 00:31:56,540
listening who want to do better,
but maybe how, what would you 

579
00:31:56,540 --> 00:32:00,740
say to them about doing this 
work and sort of where to get 

580
00:32:00,740 --> 00:32:05,280
started? 
I would say that educate 

581
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,840
yourself. 
Do not put the burden back on 

582
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,600
the particular group to educate 
you. 

583
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,640
There are so many things out 
there, so many articles, books, 

584
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,120
interviews, podcasts, all kinds 
of things. 

585
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:24,520
And policy Educate yourself. 
Get some kind of level of 

586
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:29,280
understanding before kind of 
asking those basic questions, 

587
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,320
because that's annoying, quite 
frankly. 

588
00:32:31,740 --> 00:32:35,180
It's like okay, I want to help 
you, but you have to educate me,

589
00:32:35,940 --> 00:32:39,540
no, educate yourself and then we
can move forward. 

590
00:32:39,900 --> 00:32:42,900
And so I would say educate and 
also one of the things I would 

591
00:32:42,900 --> 00:32:46,020
say as well is again 
communication, don't know what 

592
00:32:46,020 --> 00:32:48,340
you don't know. 
And I think that that works both

593
00:32:48,420 --> 00:32:50,780
ways. 
I think that that a lot of times

594
00:32:50,780 --> 00:32:56,820
we have perceptions about what a
group are doing or not doing and

595
00:32:56,820 --> 00:33:00,660
it's it's false, you know, it's 
completely false and that. 

596
00:33:00,990 --> 00:33:02,630
Like I said, that works both 
ways. 

597
00:33:02,870 --> 00:33:06,550
So I think communication, some 
conversations are uncomfortable,

598
00:33:06,870 --> 00:33:08,830
but that's okay. 
It's all right to have 

599
00:33:09,110 --> 00:33:13,550
uncomfortable conversations if 
you are going to get to a 

600
00:33:13,590 --> 00:33:16,550
different level of awareness, a 
different level of 

601
00:33:16,870 --> 00:33:19,950
understanding, and some of those
conversations can be really, 

602
00:33:19,950 --> 00:33:22,670
really simple. 
You know, I've had conversations

603
00:33:22,670 --> 00:33:26,350
with, you know, friends that are
Asian and had understood certain

604
00:33:26,350 --> 00:33:29,170
nuances and gone on. 
I didn't realize that happened 

605
00:33:29,170 --> 00:33:32,170
in your culture, Okay. 
I'm aware of that now, you know,

606
00:33:32,170 --> 00:33:35,130
or speaking with somebody that 
has a perception. 

607
00:33:35,130 --> 00:33:38,250
I remember having a conversation
with a colleague and talking 

608
00:33:38,250 --> 00:33:42,770
about the stresses of of of when
you say that black women are 

609
00:33:42,770 --> 00:33:45,130
aggressive or black people are 
aggressive, they get into the 

610
00:33:45,130 --> 00:33:47,570
office and oh, but they're a 
little bit aggressive. 

611
00:33:47,570 --> 00:33:50,290
And it's like, well, actually, 
first of all, we communicate 

612
00:33:50,290 --> 00:33:53,170
very differently to you. 
We're very straight and we're, 

613
00:33:53,210 --> 00:33:55,490
you know. 
Were very expressive and 

614
00:33:55,490 --> 00:33:59,090
animated. 
That can come across to you as 

615
00:33:59,090 --> 00:34:02,970
aggression, but it's not. 
Secondly, if I'm coming into the

616
00:34:02,970 --> 00:34:07,050
office, I can experience so many
microaggressions before I even 

617
00:34:07,050 --> 00:34:09,090
get to work. 
Someone doesn't want to sit next

618
00:34:09,090 --> 00:34:10,810
to me. 
Someone speaks to me in a 

619
00:34:10,810 --> 00:34:13,290
horrible way. 
All these things can happen. 

620
00:34:13,610 --> 00:34:18,050
Or I have out and out some kind 
of racial abuse and I'm sworn 

621
00:34:18,050 --> 00:34:20,650
out and abused before I even get
to work. 

622
00:34:20,969 --> 00:34:23,170
So when I'm got to work, I'm 
already stressed. 

623
00:34:23,540 --> 00:34:26,620
So when you're asking me 
questions that make no sense in 

624
00:34:26,620 --> 00:34:30,219
my head, yeah, I might. 
I might answer in a knocky way, 

625
00:34:30,219 --> 00:34:32,179
Do you know what I mean? 
But it might not have anything 

626
00:34:32,179 --> 00:34:36,580
to do with with you in that way.
So it's those things about 

627
00:34:36,580 --> 00:34:41,260
having those open conversations 
about what triggers you. 

628
00:34:41,620 --> 00:34:44,900
How do you navigate this stuff, 
You know, when I tell my friends

629
00:34:44,900 --> 00:34:47,540
sometimes things that happen on 
the train, even yesterday coming

630
00:34:47,540 --> 00:34:49,480
home. 
Sitting on the train, The train 

631
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,120
is full. 
It's full to the brim, but no 

632
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,800
one will sit next to me. 
And it's like, those are the 

633
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,160
aggressions that we're talking 
about, you know, And it's just 

634
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,880
like, wow, this is really still 
happening. 

635
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,600
You see what I mean? 
And some people say, oh, no, no,

636
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,000
no, that's not true. 
It doesn't happen. 

637
00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:06,880
Yes, it does. 
It happens every day, all the 

638
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:08,120
time. 
And we deal with it. 

639
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:13,040
That's traumatic. 
So have been able to be open. 

640
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,440
To have conversations and to 
communicate with each other 

641
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,800
breaks down barriers better than
anything else I know, to be 

642
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,000
honest. 
Yeah. 

643
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:22,720
Well, thank you. 
It's like, what are we going to 

644
00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:25,080
do about it? 
You know, it's great for those 

645
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,240
conversations, but then we say 
what are we going to do about 

646
00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:30,280
it? 
Yeah, so having that kind of 

647
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,680
solution focused mind, but like 
you said, without that 

648
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,640
communication in the 1st place, 
you're going to get known you. 

649
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,920
Wouldn't know that that person 
is stressed. 

650
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,920
It doesn't have anything to do 
with you, you know, somebody 

651
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,880
said to me the other day I was 
going to work and. 

652
00:35:43,570 --> 00:35:46,210
Somebody was being really 
horrible to them and they spat 

653
00:35:46,210 --> 00:35:51,370
at them, you know, and it's 
like, but they now have to carry

654
00:35:51,370 --> 00:35:54,850
that into work and clean up and 
just pretend like everything's 

655
00:35:54,850 --> 00:35:57,290
fine. 
Everything is not fine, you 

656
00:35:57,290 --> 00:35:58,930
know? 
And it's been able to have that 

657
00:35:58,930 --> 00:36:03,210
space to have those kind of 
conversations and express 

658
00:36:03,210 --> 00:36:06,350
yourself at PRS. 
We have affinity groups, you 

659
00:36:06,350 --> 00:36:11,110
know, ethnicity, disability, 
religion, gender. 

660
00:36:11,110 --> 00:36:15,350
There's loads of groups that we 
have that they can discuss these

661
00:36:15,350 --> 00:36:17,830
things and talk about. 
All right, How do we move 

662
00:36:17,830 --> 00:36:20,230
forward? 
What do we need to implement 

663
00:36:20,270 --> 00:36:24,830
that makes it easier for us to 
be in this workspace together, 

664
00:36:25,070 --> 00:36:27,670
working together and 
understanding each other. 

665
00:36:27,910 --> 00:36:30,990
And I think it's, I think it's 
really progressive and I think 

666
00:36:30,990 --> 00:36:33,910
it's really important as well. 
Totally, I think. 

667
00:36:34,230 --> 00:36:36,070
I mean. 
I'd really like you to talk a 

668
00:36:36,070 --> 00:36:39,150
bit more about that, because 
what I love about it is what 

669
00:36:39,150 --> 00:36:41,670
you're saying is we have to 
communicate, but then we have to

670
00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:44,550
facilitate that communication 
because you have to feel you're 

671
00:36:44,550 --> 00:36:47,030
in a safe space where you can 
share this horrible thing that 

672
00:36:47,030 --> 00:36:48,350
happened to you and you're not 
going to be judged. 

673
00:36:48,710 --> 00:36:50,710
And you're also not going to be 
invalidated. 

674
00:36:50,710 --> 00:36:53,510
Like you just said, it doesn't 
happen because that person 

675
00:36:53,510 --> 00:36:55,550
hasn't experienced it. 
So you don't want to share with 

676
00:36:55,550 --> 00:36:57,390
them. 
You want to share with someone 

677
00:36:57,390 --> 00:37:00,630
who's going to be like, wait, 
that's fun, sucks, and I believe

678
00:37:00,630 --> 00:37:02,990
you instantly because I've had 
similar experiences and I know 

679
00:37:02,990 --> 00:37:07,100
this is how the world works. 
So creating those safe spaces is

680
00:37:07,100 --> 00:37:11,380
so important for even to enable 
people to be vulnerable and feel

681
00:37:11,380 --> 00:37:15,380
safe to share and also to create
for the. 

682
00:37:15,580 --> 00:37:18,300
It's a two way thing, isn't it? 
You've got to feel safe enough 

683
00:37:18,300 --> 00:37:20,340
that you can share and be 
vulnerable and then you want 

684
00:37:20,340 --> 00:37:23,860
people to be open and listen to 
you without invalidating, 

685
00:37:23,860 --> 00:37:28,260
without, you know, being able to
communicate with you in a way 

686
00:37:28,260 --> 00:37:30,520
that they can. 
Do you want me to help you fix 

687
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:31,800
this, or do you want me to just 
listen? 

688
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,440
Like what you're doing exactly? 
So yeah, can you tell us a bit 

689
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,160
more about the groups? 
Affinity groups. 

690
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,240
Yeah. 
Yeah, so the affinity groups 

691
00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:46,360
were set up maybe about, I wanna
say, about a year or a year and 

692
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,280
a half ago maybe. 
I don't know. 

693
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,320
I'm not sure. 
I might be saying wrong, but 

694
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,840
I've been aware of them probably
for about a year and a half. 

695
00:37:54,420 --> 00:37:57,900
And basically exactly that, 
creating safe spaces. 

696
00:37:57,900 --> 00:38:01,340
So one of the things that we 
looked at particularly in 

697
00:38:01,340 --> 00:38:05,420
lockdown was the fact that some 
groups are more isolated than 

698
00:38:05,460 --> 00:38:08,460
others. 
And how do we provide support 

699
00:38:08,940 --> 00:38:12,820
for those groups in a 
constructive way, you know, and 

700
00:38:12,980 --> 00:38:16,140
and also that it's not just an 
echo chamber because you know, 

701
00:38:16,140 --> 00:38:18,420
you have these groups, sometimes
you have focus groups and it's 

702
00:38:18,420 --> 00:38:21,220
just like, OK, but you're just 
talking amongst yourselves and 

703
00:38:21,220 --> 00:38:24,240
nothing actually really happens.
So for us it was really 

704
00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:28,120
important not to have an echo 
chamber and actually make them 

705
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,120
task based, make them solution 
based. 

706
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,120
And if there are concerns with 
certain groups within our 

707
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,360
organization that we can address
them and we have channels to be 

708
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,800
able to do that. 
So we have affinity groups that 

709
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,520
are linked to our equality, 
diversity and inclusion 

710
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,880
programs. 
We have imperatives. 

711
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,680
We have tasks that it's like 
okay, what do we need to 

712
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:55,130
improve, for instance? 
Last year we decided we don't 

713
00:38:55,130 --> 00:38:58,130
want to talk about the struggle 
for Black History Month. 

714
00:38:58,410 --> 00:39:00,890
How do we make it more positive?
How do we make it more 

715
00:39:00,890 --> 00:39:03,730
progressive? 
So we had a caller come and 

716
00:39:03,730 --> 00:39:08,930
speak about the history of of 
Black Britain and that was so 

717
00:39:08,930 --> 00:39:12,330
amazing, so informative. 
I've learned so much stuff on 

718
00:39:12,330 --> 00:39:14,970
that day. 
And then we also had the round 

719
00:39:14,970 --> 00:39:19,530
table where we were discussing 
as executives how do we work as 

720
00:39:19,570 --> 00:39:23,350
a community within the industry.
And what needs to be changing, 

721
00:39:23,590 --> 00:39:27,310
again, looking at the future and
looking at solutions of things 

722
00:39:27,310 --> 00:39:30,470
that we can do to create change,
sustainable change. 

723
00:39:30,990 --> 00:39:33,230
So the affinity groups, that's 
what they're about. 

724
00:39:33,230 --> 00:39:37,150
It's about having a safe space, 
being able to have your voice 

725
00:39:37,150 --> 00:39:42,910
heard, but also integrating that
back into our organization and 

726
00:39:42,910 --> 00:39:46,310
making sure that everybody kind 
of respects each other. 

727
00:39:46,310 --> 00:39:51,110
So for instance, we have a 
prayer room at our offices at 

728
00:39:51,110 --> 00:39:53,790
our hub. 
We also have a space for new 

729
00:39:53,790 --> 00:39:56,350
mothers that are expressing 
because that's some of the 

730
00:39:56,350 --> 00:39:58,190
things that came out of those 
groups. 

731
00:39:58,310 --> 00:40:01,030
You know what, We want to come 
into the office, but we can't 

732
00:40:01,070 --> 00:40:04,030
because we're, you know, we're 
still breastfeeding, but we want

733
00:40:04,070 --> 00:40:06,630
to. 
So how do we facilitate being 

734
00:40:06,630 --> 00:40:09,230
able to allow for them to come 
into work? 

735
00:40:09,390 --> 00:40:12,590
But, you know, every couple of 
hours they got to do that thing,

736
00:40:12,750 --> 00:40:14,670
you know what I mean? 
So it's things like that. 

737
00:40:14,670 --> 00:40:17,910
It's just dealing with things on
a very human level. 

738
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,640
How can we support you to do 
your job well and to enjoy being

739
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:24,760
in this space? 
Yeah, I love it. 

740
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:26,520
I think. 
I really hope that inspires 

741
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,040
other people who are in a 
position to be able to create 

742
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,480
those kind of spaces for people.
Take that on board. 

743
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:34,520
Because yeah, I think it's 
amazing and it's just like you 

744
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,920
said. 
It's everything is a journey and

745
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:41,240
it's a learning like you said, 
you learn from that talk and I 

746
00:40:41,240 --> 00:40:43,840
feel like I'm learning all of 
the time but and but I'm a. 

747
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,720
I I mean, it's I'm an academic. 
I'm a proactive learner on every

748
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,520
possible level you can imagine 
because I literally love it. 

749
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:55,000
But for me it's things like, So 
for instance, like, I'm on the 

750
00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:00,720
spectrum, so I had to learn like
active listening and when I was 

751
00:41:00,720 --> 00:41:03,480
like because and I was like, Oh 
my God, before this, people must

752
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,960
thought I was so rude and I 
honestly wasn't doing it on 

753
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,920
purpose like anyone ever but 
like. 

754
00:41:11,540 --> 00:41:15,180
It's something that I learned to
do because I realized that I 

755
00:41:15,180 --> 00:41:18,660
wasn't being, you know, it 
wasn't coming across as someone 

756
00:41:18,660 --> 00:41:21,500
who was like caring and and 
nurturing those conversations in

757
00:41:21,500 --> 00:41:24,020
that moment. 
So like you said, it's about 

758
00:41:24,460 --> 00:41:26,980
educating yourself, 
acknowledging your honor, 

759
00:41:26,980 --> 00:41:30,460
learning journey and what you 
need to learn and work on and 

760
00:41:30,460 --> 00:41:33,420
all of this stuff. 
And and also like for us as an 

761
00:41:33,420 --> 00:41:35,900
organization at PRS, what we 
need to learn. 

762
00:41:36,140 --> 00:41:40,340
So you know, in terms of neuro 
expensiveness, it's like, OK. 

763
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:42,040
What do we need to learn about 
that? 

764
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,360
Some people work better with? 
Like we were discussing this 

765
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,280
yesterday in terms of dyslexia 
and you know that some people 

766
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,000
work better with different 
colors. 

767
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,720
They can make sense of 
information when you put it in a

768
00:41:53,720 --> 00:41:55,720
different color. 
And those are things that we're 

769
00:41:55,720 --> 00:41:59,960
really, really aware of with the
PRSPPR joint venture in 

770
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:02,240
Leicester. 
I went out there last year and I

771
00:42:02,240 --> 00:42:07,280
was blown away by the amount of 
neuro expensive employees that 

772
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,170
we had. 
And how they work differently. 

773
00:42:10,170 --> 00:42:13,010
There was a lady I spoke to and 
she was like, you know, my 

774
00:42:13,010 --> 00:42:16,570
attention span's really short. 
So they've given me this kind of

775
00:42:16,570 --> 00:42:19,850
work to do, which is focused. 
It's very short. 

776
00:42:19,850 --> 00:42:22,130
I can get it done. 
And then I move on to something 

777
00:42:22,130 --> 00:42:25,570
else. 
And I was like, wow, I wouldn't 

778
00:42:25,570 --> 00:42:27,450
even have thought of that, you 
know? 

779
00:42:27,770 --> 00:42:33,210
But it's those kind of 
inclusive, really conscious 

780
00:42:33,210 --> 00:42:35,730
decisions we're going to train 
differently. 

781
00:42:36,050 --> 00:42:37,440
We understand that. 
This. 

782
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,640
If this person is behaving in 
this kind of way, you know what?

783
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,160
Maybe we should get them tested 
because maybe they don't even 

784
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:45,080
know. 
Do you know what I mean? 

785
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:46,800
And that's been happening so 
much. 

786
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,960
So many creatives have been 
saying, Oh my God, I got tested 

787
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:54,000
at like 35 and all of a sudden 
my whole world has opened up 

788
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:55,880
because I just thought something
was wrong with me. 

789
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,540
But actually. 
I'm I'm neuro divergent or I 

790
00:42:59,540 --> 00:43:02,900
like to say neuro expansive you 
know, because I just think we 

791
00:43:02,900 --> 00:43:06,380
all have different gifts and we 
all have different abilities. 

792
00:43:06,460 --> 00:43:08,380
It's just expressed in different
ways. 

793
00:43:08,420 --> 00:43:11,580
That's how I see it. 
And I just think once we start 

794
00:43:11,780 --> 00:43:15,340
really celebrating that and 
looking at that in that positive

795
00:43:15,340 --> 00:43:18,020
way Oh my gosh I mean we already
see it. 

796
00:43:18,020 --> 00:43:22,060
We already know that there's 
companies that really use. 

797
00:43:22,690 --> 00:43:27,050
Neuro expensive people for say 
data or figuring out certain 

798
00:43:27,050 --> 00:43:29,250
things because their brains are 
so brilliant. 

799
00:43:29,450 --> 00:43:32,370
So and in creativity is exactly 
the same. 

800
00:43:32,370 --> 00:43:34,130
You're thinking Oh my God, 
you're a genius. 

801
00:43:34,130 --> 00:43:36,570
You pay like 11 instruments. 
How did you do that? 

802
00:43:37,250 --> 00:43:40,010
That all those things. 
I just think that we have to 

803
00:43:40,010 --> 00:43:45,370
keep, we have to keep training 
ourselves to become more aware 

804
00:43:45,490 --> 00:43:48,290
of each other and more aware of 
ourselves as well. 

805
00:43:48,630 --> 00:43:51,230
Yeah, I love it and I love what 
you've just said about neuro 

806
00:43:51,230 --> 00:43:54,110
Expansive and this is a perfect 
example because I'm like I'm 

807
00:43:54,110 --> 00:43:56,550
going to use that now. 
So I've just like I'm neuro 

808
00:43:56,550 --> 00:44:00,110
divergent like I've been using. 
That insinuation, but it comes 

809
00:44:00,150 --> 00:44:03,270
you're away from the norm. 
Exactly how I pictured it. 

810
00:44:03,270 --> 00:44:06,390
It was like you're setting a 
standard of like, this is 

811
00:44:06,390 --> 00:44:09,470
typical, and then you're non 
typical, so it's like you're 

812
00:44:09,470 --> 00:44:10,790
out. 
But the joke is as well, 

813
00:44:10,790 --> 00:44:11,870
especially in the music 
industry. 

814
00:44:11,870 --> 00:44:16,550
Like you said, it's not a 
coincidence that we are all like

815
00:44:16,550 --> 00:44:21,270
you said, and I just love it. 
That links so well with the kind

816
00:44:21,270 --> 00:44:25,390
of inclusivity language because 
what you're saying is we're all 

817
00:44:25,390 --> 00:44:27,590
different and we all have 
different ways to meet a need. 

818
00:44:27,590 --> 00:44:29,790
It's not like there's a group. 
Who are those? 

819
00:44:29,790 --> 00:44:31,950
No typical people. 
I don't know them. 

820
00:44:32,030 --> 00:44:33,790
I don't hang out with anyone. 
I would call it. 

821
00:44:35,950 --> 00:44:39,070
So it's like you're not 
different to the norm. 

822
00:44:39,070 --> 00:44:44,030
There is no norm. 
Exactly different. 

823
00:44:44,270 --> 00:44:46,310
So thank you. 
I'm going to adopt that term 

824
00:44:46,670 --> 00:44:47,910
from you. 
Brilliant. 

825
00:44:49,390 --> 00:44:50,230
Okay. 
So. 

826
00:44:51,550 --> 00:44:54,110
And you have answered this. 
I'm going to ask you the 

827
00:44:54,110 --> 00:44:56,430
question that I've asked 
everybody and you've touched on 

828
00:44:56,430 --> 00:44:59,310
lots of answers, but if you want
to just so feel free to repeat 

829
00:44:59,310 --> 00:45:04,350
yourself or to build on what 
you've said just for a concise 

830
00:45:04,390 --> 00:45:06,870
kind of bringing everything 
together answer, yeah. 

831
00:45:07,470 --> 00:45:13,470
So what do you think that the 
music industry can do to become 

832
00:45:13,470 --> 00:45:19,510
a more inclusive place? 
I truly believe that we need to 

833
00:45:19,550 --> 00:45:24,590
stop. 
Looking for what's normal and 

834
00:45:24,590 --> 00:45:28,550
what is, Oh well, this is how 
we've always done it, so we're 

835
00:45:28,550 --> 00:45:30,230
just going to keep doing it that
way. 

836
00:45:30,830 --> 00:45:35,670
Life is always changing. 
We are always changing as human 

837
00:45:35,670 --> 00:45:39,550
beings are are. 
Everything is always changing. 

838
00:45:39,630 --> 00:45:45,510
And we've just been through this
experience that's shown us on 

839
00:45:45,830 --> 00:45:49,470
every level how how much things 
can change. 

840
00:45:49,860 --> 00:45:51,740
And and can be out of our 
control. 

841
00:45:52,620 --> 00:45:56,700
So I think that it's really 
about evolution and about 

842
00:45:56,700 --> 00:46:00,300
embracing evolution and 
embracing that. 

843
00:46:00,660 --> 00:46:05,380
You know 20-30 years ago we it 
was vinyl, you know now we're 

844
00:46:05,380 --> 00:46:08,660
streaming. 
But we have evolved, the music 

845
00:46:08,660 --> 00:46:11,700
industry has evolved. 
So mindsets need to evolve as 

846
00:46:11,700 --> 00:46:13,620
well. 
And I think that that's really 

847
00:46:13,620 --> 00:46:17,410
important to be. 
Yeah, embracing of different 

848
00:46:17,410 --> 00:46:20,010
mindsets and the fact that we do
things differently and we will 

849
00:46:20,010 --> 00:46:23,290
do things differently. 
I love working with young people

850
00:46:23,290 --> 00:46:27,570
and developing young talent. 
It's because of that, because 

851
00:46:27,570 --> 00:46:30,770
I'm just always buzzing after 
thinking, Oh my God, I didn't 

852
00:46:30,770 --> 00:46:32,930
even think of doing that. 
Oh, that shortcut. 

853
00:46:32,930 --> 00:46:35,810
I'm going to do that. 
Or, oh, you write with that. 

854
00:46:36,010 --> 00:46:37,970
Oh, you use that method. 
I never even heard of that 

855
00:46:37,970 --> 00:46:39,970
method. 
Okay, let me figure that out. 

856
00:46:40,010 --> 00:46:41,850
You know, and it keeps you 
fresh. 

857
00:46:41,850 --> 00:46:44,250
It keeps you excited. 
It keeps you engaged. 

858
00:46:44,590 --> 00:46:47,510
Otherwise you stagnate and you 
just do what you do and it's 

859
00:46:47,550 --> 00:46:51,110
old, you know, I have a 21 year 
old daughter and sometimes I'm 

860
00:46:51,110 --> 00:46:52,990
showing her things and she's 
like I'm not being funny, man, 

861
00:46:52,990 --> 00:46:59,350
but old there's me thinking I 
was being cool, you know? 

862
00:46:59,630 --> 00:47:04,350
So I think that it's it's being 
open to evolution, it's being 

863
00:47:04,430 --> 00:47:07,990
open to change. 
It's being open to not just 

864
00:47:08,070 --> 00:47:12,390
looking for the next big thing, 
but looking for the next 

865
00:47:12,670 --> 00:47:15,610
evolution. 
I think that that's that for me 

866
00:47:15,970 --> 00:47:19,530
and and in order to do that, you
have to bring in other voices. 

867
00:47:19,810 --> 00:47:22,690
You have to bring in other other
people that have traveled 

868
00:47:22,690 --> 00:47:25,490
different roads. 
You have to bring in different 

869
00:47:25,490 --> 00:47:27,610
backgrounds because they're 
going to look at it differently,

870
00:47:27,930 --> 00:47:30,410
look, you know, embracing 
different perspectives. 

871
00:47:30,650 --> 00:47:34,810
I think that's how the music 
industry is going to remain 

872
00:47:34,810 --> 00:47:38,930
exciting and remain progressive 
and cutting edge. 

873
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:40,600
Amazing. 
Thank you so much. 

874
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:44,240
That was a brilliant answer and 
obviously I completely agree 

875
00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:47,560
with you. 
It's just like you said that 

876
00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:50,000
what you're talking about, it 
gets me excited. 

877
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,240
I feel the energy when you're 
saying that and I'm like, yeah, 

878
00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:56,760
because that is progression in a
way that is so nourishing and 

879
00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:00,320
will help the music industry 
flourish like this is all good 

880
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,640
looking like. 
I I completely agree with you. 

881
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,800
There's nothing more stagnant 
than this is the we do things 

882
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:08,960
this way because this is the way
things are. 

883
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:11,080
Done how we've done it. 
And done. 

884
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:12,840
Yeah. 
And that's so unproductive. 

885
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:17,280
And I read about a story that 
highlights this point once where

886
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,200
this woman said she cuts the top
off the Turkey every time she 

887
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:21,800
makes the Turkey at 
Thanksgiving. 

888
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,880
And her friend comes around for 
dinner and she's like, why'd you

889
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:26,440
cut the top off the top of the 
Turkey? 

890
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:27,700
And she's like. 
I don't know. 

891
00:48:27,700 --> 00:48:29,940
That's how my mom did it. 
So she calls her mom. 

892
00:48:29,940 --> 00:48:32,180
And she's like, mom, why do you 
cut the top of your Turkey? 

893
00:48:32,700 --> 00:48:35,620
She's like, oh, because when I 
was little, we had a really 

894
00:48:35,620 --> 00:48:38,260
small oven. 
And so my mom used to cut the 

895
00:48:38,260 --> 00:48:41,180
top of her Turkey so it could 
fit in the oven. 

896
00:48:42,220 --> 00:48:46,780
And it was like 3 generations of
women in the top of the Turkey, 

897
00:48:46,780 --> 00:48:49,460
but they hadn't thought about 
why they're doing that. 

898
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:54,120
And that's just like a perfect 
analogy for like not doing 

899
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:56,000
things the way that they've 
always been done because there 

900
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,840
probably was a reason that's not
relevant anymore. 

901
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:02,560
You've got to look at things 
fresh like you said. 

902
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:04,600
So that was an amazing answer. 
Thank you. 

903
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,080
I really appreciate that. 
So is there anything else that 

904
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,760
you feel that you wanted to 
share that we haven't touched on

905
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:14,200
or you wanted to talk about that
we haven't mentioned yet? 

906
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:16,530
Yes. 
There is. 

907
00:49:16,930 --> 00:49:20,410
I've been working on an 
initiative that I'm developing 

908
00:49:20,410 --> 00:49:24,490
called Pause, and it is for 
Melon native women within the 

909
00:49:24,490 --> 00:49:28,890
industry or within creative 
industries and creating a safe 

910
00:49:28,890 --> 00:49:34,410
space for them to come and talk 
and express themselves, create a

911
00:49:34,410 --> 00:49:38,610
network, share, be supported. 
I'm, I'm not sure if you know, 

912
00:49:38,610 --> 00:49:42,130
but I'm very much into Wellness.
I'm a qualified Wellness 

913
00:49:42,130 --> 00:49:47,670
consultant and my kind of. 
I guess my speciality in terms 

914
00:49:47,670 --> 00:49:52,230
of that is, is about joy and 
about working through horrible 

915
00:49:52,230 --> 00:49:54,870
situations in life by tapping 
into your joy. 

916
00:49:55,070 --> 00:49:59,550
So I've been working on maybe 
about a year now this this 

917
00:49:59,670 --> 00:50:03,550
network called pause, and we're 
on Instagram, if I can, 

918
00:50:03,550 --> 00:50:07,350
shamelessly. 
It's a private group, but it's 

919
00:50:07,350 --> 00:50:13,390
private in order to protect that
kind of safety of that circle. 

920
00:50:13,780 --> 00:50:16,300
So it's pause, not the inner 
circle. 

921
00:50:16,620 --> 00:50:20,260
So we have events where we do 
Wellness events. 

922
00:50:20,260 --> 00:50:25,300
We work on the tools of what you
need in order to kind of be in 

923
00:50:25,300 --> 00:50:28,900
this space and be doing this 
work and not get burnt out and 

924
00:50:28,900 --> 00:50:30,860
exhausted and just want to give 
up. 

925
00:50:31,060 --> 00:50:33,740
So yeah, so that's what I've 
been working on for the last 

926
00:50:33,740 --> 00:50:36,820
year or so and it's, it's been 
really good, really, really 

927
00:50:36,820 --> 00:50:38,370
good. 
Sounds amazing. 

928
00:50:38,370 --> 00:50:42,050
And I have to say, I didn't know
the details of that project. 

929
00:50:42,050 --> 00:50:43,930
But you know, earlier when I was
like, I'm getting this 

930
00:50:43,930 --> 00:50:46,090
compassion vibe from you and 
this, and I'm getting this 

931
00:50:46,450 --> 00:50:48,570
positive energy from you. 
So, like, it clearly works. 

932
00:50:49,810 --> 00:50:54,010
Thank you. 
Because like I said, it's doing 

933
00:50:54,010 --> 00:50:57,490
this work and being in the 
industry, you could so easily. 

934
00:50:57,970 --> 00:51:02,210
Get deterred or burnt out. 
Or like we were saying, it's 

935
00:51:02,210 --> 00:51:04,570
work to undo the learning, It's 
work to face. 

936
00:51:04,810 --> 00:51:06,770
Like when you're telling me the 
story about just getting on the 

937
00:51:06,770 --> 00:51:09,330
train and it's like, that's 
energy sapping. 

938
00:51:09,490 --> 00:51:12,930
Shit that you have. 
To deal with and so it's so 

939
00:51:12,930 --> 00:51:15,490
ready to hear about this kind of
countering. 

940
00:51:16,170 --> 00:51:18,250
Exactly. 
And what I've learned is that 

941
00:51:18,330 --> 00:51:22,300
our base. 
Our baseline birthright is joy, 

942
00:51:22,540 --> 00:51:25,900
and most of the time when we're 
going through things, there are 

943
00:51:25,940 --> 00:51:29,140
always still moments of joy, you
know, and it's and it's 

944
00:51:29,140 --> 00:51:34,100
expanding that joy and being 
more in that space than the 

945
00:51:34,420 --> 00:51:38,860
exhausted stress burn out space.
And how do we find coping 

946
00:51:38,860 --> 00:51:43,780
mechanisms, but not just coping 
mechanisms, ways of being 

947
00:51:43,940 --> 00:51:46,540
different, ways of actually 
dealing with it completely 

948
00:51:46,540 --> 00:51:49,260
differently. 
So for me, in the last year, 

949
00:51:49,460 --> 00:51:53,700
I've been working a lot on my 
boundaries and being okay with 

950
00:51:53,700 --> 00:51:56,980
saying no, I'm not going to do 
that, that doesn't work for me. 

951
00:51:57,620 --> 00:52:01,380
So my kind of my three questions
at the moment is, does it light 

952
00:52:01,380 --> 00:52:03,140
me up? 
Does it give me joy? 

953
00:52:03,540 --> 00:52:05,980
And is it going to be for the 
greater good? 

954
00:52:06,300 --> 00:52:09,500
And if it's yes to all of those 
things, it's a yes, but if it's 

955
00:52:09,500 --> 00:52:12,820
no to more more than one of 
those things and it's a no. 

956
00:52:13,370 --> 00:52:15,730
I love it. 
That is so great and I hope 

957
00:52:15,730 --> 00:52:19,850
people also take that on board 
because yeah, we feel like I 

958
00:52:20,090 --> 00:52:23,250
definitely think this for myself
and I could definitely take that

959
00:52:23,250 --> 00:52:25,650
on board. 
And for the other women that I 

960
00:52:25,650 --> 00:52:29,690
spoke to on the podcast 
especially, like, we feel like 

961
00:52:29,690 --> 00:52:31,570
we have to say yes to everything
you. 

962
00:52:31,970 --> 00:52:35,450
Don't know is a complete 
sentence and it's like, if I'm 

963
00:52:35,450 --> 00:52:38,290
not going to feel any joy from 
it, why am I doing it? 

964
00:52:38,850 --> 00:52:41,260
Yeah. 
And I think it's giving yourself

965
00:52:41,620 --> 00:52:43,300
comes back to your relationship 
with yourself. 

966
00:52:43,300 --> 00:52:46,860
Like you said, you deserve joy. 
Because I think for me where I 

967
00:52:46,860 --> 00:52:50,300
struggle is the underneath of 
that, which is like, do you have

968
00:52:50,300 --> 00:52:54,620
to 1st feel worthy that you can 
give that to yourself and it's 

969
00:52:54,700 --> 00:52:57,740
the whole thing? 
But then that's why we go back 

970
00:52:57,740 --> 00:53:01,380
to the birthright. 
Because when you're born, you 

971
00:53:01,380 --> 00:53:03,340
get all the joy in the world. 
You know? 

972
00:53:03,340 --> 00:53:05,020
You're cute, Everybody loves 
you. 

973
00:53:05,700 --> 00:53:08,620
That's your birthright. 
That's the baseline. 

974
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,120
So it's tapping into that what 
makes me feel good, what makes 

975
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:14,360
me feel happy. 
And it could just be one thing, 

976
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,400
it could be, you know, that. 
So I'm cutting down on, like 

977
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:20,800
sounds really mad, but I'm 
cutting down on like sugar and 

978
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,880
tea and stuff like that. 
So my one thing is I'll have One

979
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:27,400
Cup of tea a day and that's when
I can stick down and have my tea

980
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:30,280
and it's great and no one 
disturbs me, do you know what I 

981
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:31,720
mean? 
So it's like, what are the 

982
00:53:31,720 --> 00:53:35,680
things that make you feel good 
and if you do 1A day and then 

983
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:40,060
build that up. 
You will start to feel more 

984
00:53:40,300 --> 00:53:43,540
connected to yourself. 
The problem is as well as women,

985
00:53:43,540 --> 00:53:46,460
is that because we give and give
and give and give, we don't 

986
00:53:46,460 --> 00:53:48,260
think about. 
We're the last person to think 

987
00:53:48,260 --> 00:53:49,820
about. 
Oh, what do I need? 

988
00:53:50,060 --> 00:53:50,540
What? 
What? 

989
00:53:50,580 --> 00:53:52,260
What am I? 
What makes me happy? 

990
00:53:52,540 --> 00:53:54,740
You know, Is it walking for 10 
minutes? 

991
00:53:54,740 --> 00:53:57,300
Going for a 10 minute walk? 
Is it having a bath? 

992
00:53:57,620 --> 00:54:00,980
Is it speaking to your friend on
the phone and laughing about 

993
00:54:01,100 --> 00:54:02,700
anything? 
Do you know what I mean? 

994
00:54:02,700 --> 00:54:06,780
Like, what is it? 
And that that sense of inquiry 

995
00:54:07,620 --> 00:54:09,340
is really important and we 
deserve it. 

996
00:54:09,380 --> 00:54:12,900
But we can't be, we can't be 
productive. 

997
00:54:13,140 --> 00:54:17,580
We can't be out there constantly
giving a top level. 

998
00:54:17,740 --> 00:54:20,100
If we are not giving to 
ourselves, it's not possible. 

999
00:54:20,380 --> 00:54:23,020
So true. 
It's like that age-old saying 

1000
00:54:23,020 --> 00:54:24,940
you can't fall from an empty 
cup. 

1001
00:54:25,340 --> 00:54:27,620
Exactly, exactly. 
So true. 

1002
00:54:28,180 --> 00:54:31,500
And and I think what you said is
really really important about 

1003
00:54:31,500 --> 00:54:33,780
this inquiry. 
Self inquiry because. 

1004
00:54:34,140 --> 00:54:38,780
Some people, if you you're used 
to, like you said, trying to be 

1005
00:54:38,780 --> 00:54:40,900
everything for everyone and 
trying to do everything all of 

1006
00:54:40,900 --> 00:54:43,260
the time, you might not even 
know the answer to that 

1007
00:54:43,260 --> 00:54:47,300
question. 
And so the inquiry part's really

1008
00:54:47,300 --> 00:54:50,340
important and actually, that's a
really fun journey to go on, 

1009
00:54:50,820 --> 00:54:53,180
figuring out what brings you 
joy, yes. 

1010
00:54:53,620 --> 00:54:57,060
And it changes, you know, over 
time it changes as well. 

1011
00:54:57,420 --> 00:54:59,140
Sometimes it literally could 
just be. 

1012
00:54:59,340 --> 00:55:02,660
I just need some quiet time. 
And other times it might be I 

1013
00:55:02,660 --> 00:55:05,020
need to travel. 
Or you know what? 

1014
00:55:05,020 --> 00:55:08,700
I haven't been dancing for ages.
I wanna just go and dance and 

1015
00:55:09,100 --> 00:55:10,700
enjoy that. 
Do you know what I mean? 

1016
00:55:10,700 --> 00:55:14,020
So it changes over time as well.
And that's okay too. 

1017
00:55:14,420 --> 00:55:16,700
Yeah, and know it's about 
knowing yourself, isn't it? 

1018
00:55:16,700 --> 00:55:19,460
Because I was just thinking of 
times when like I've said to a 

1019
00:55:19,460 --> 00:55:22,220
friend, like, yeah, we're going 
dancing and they're a bit 

1020
00:55:22,220 --> 00:55:24,580
begrudging and I'm like. 
You have to know the person well

1021
00:55:24,580 --> 00:55:27,020
enough to know when you can 
play, when you let them go. 

1022
00:55:27,340 --> 00:55:29,220
Yeah. 
And and I'm like pushed. 

1023
00:55:29,220 --> 00:55:31,820
And then the next day they're 
like, oh, thank you, because I 

1024
00:55:31,820 --> 00:55:34,860
forgot how much I loved that. 
And I was like, it's okay 

1025
00:55:34,860 --> 00:55:38,580
because I remembered for you. 
And that's very cool. 

1026
00:55:38,820 --> 00:55:41,540
What happened to me the other 
day I went to, I was invited to 

1027
00:55:41,580 --> 00:55:45,820
an album launch and I was a 
little bit like this is, you 

1028
00:55:45,820 --> 00:55:48,780
know, because it's work for me. 
I'm going there in a capacity, 

1029
00:55:48,780 --> 00:55:52,180
you know, as president, and you 
know, it's work. 

1030
00:55:52,850 --> 00:55:55,570
But I timed it and I was like, 
I'm going to go just before they

1031
00:55:55,570 --> 00:55:58,210
come on stage, and then I'm 
going to stay for like 40 

1032
00:55:58,210 --> 00:56:00,690
minutes, make sure my face is 
clean, and then I'm going to 

1033
00:56:00,690 --> 00:56:01,730
leave. 
That was my plan. 

1034
00:56:02,010 --> 00:56:05,410
And then I went, and then it was
great. 

1035
00:56:05,450 --> 00:56:07,530
And they played music. 
And I ended up staying, like 

1036
00:56:07,530 --> 00:56:09,330
literally till they turned the 
lights on. 

1037
00:56:09,570 --> 00:56:11,930
And I just thought, Oh my God, 
that was so much fun. 

1038
00:56:11,930 --> 00:56:15,810
I forgot what it feels like to 
dance, what it feels like to be 

1039
00:56:15,810 --> 00:56:18,730
in that kind of space. 
And I loved it. 

1040
00:56:18,730 --> 00:56:21,610
And I was like, I think I need 
to do that more often. 

1041
00:56:21,610 --> 00:56:25,530
I need to find some little club 
nights or parties or something, 

1042
00:56:25,530 --> 00:56:28,890
or I can, but it's not in my 
front room, you know what I 

1043
00:56:28,890 --> 00:56:30,930
mean? 
And we have to remind ourselves 

1044
00:56:30,930 --> 00:56:34,650
sometimes of those things. 
We're very responsible and 

1045
00:56:34,650 --> 00:56:37,930
obviously, especially with this 
whole living crisis, everybody's

1046
00:56:37,930 --> 00:56:40,530
stressed, but we have to have 
outlets. 

1047
00:56:41,250 --> 00:56:44,210
Personally, well, amazing. 
Thank you so much and we'll 

1048
00:56:44,210 --> 00:56:46,290
definitely put all the links to 
everything that you've 

1049
00:56:46,290 --> 00:56:48,750
mentioned. 
And so people can find out more,

1050
00:56:48,750 --> 00:56:52,030
please check out the bio of the 
podcast because we will put 

1051
00:56:52,030 --> 00:56:55,670
links to everything and you can 
find and follow and get 

1052
00:56:55,670 --> 00:56:58,710
involved. 
So my last question, which I've 

1053
00:56:58,710 --> 00:57:04,390
asked everyone on this season, 
is for you to please share a 

1054
00:57:04,510 --> 00:57:07,870
favorite. 
And I'm saying female Music 

1055
00:57:07,870 --> 00:57:09,830
Maker. 
But obviously in the spirit of 

1056
00:57:09,830 --> 00:57:12,150
inclusivity, it doesn't actually
have to be someone who 

1057
00:57:12,150 --> 00:57:16,540
identifies as female. 
But, and same with Music Maker 

1058
00:57:16,540 --> 00:57:20,100
can be and somebody's involved 
in any part of the process of 

1059
00:57:20,100 --> 00:57:24,220
making music happen. 
And if you you don't have to 

1060
00:57:24,220 --> 00:57:26,940
stick to one and it. 
But if you can think of someone 

1061
00:57:26,940 --> 00:57:32,420
who you would consider like your
favorite all time ever like and 

1062
00:57:32,420 --> 00:57:35,540
how maybe somebody that's 
inspired you and then also 

1063
00:57:35,940 --> 00:57:39,580
somebody like maybe more kind of
recent. 

1064
00:57:42,070 --> 00:57:45,310
Who's sort of come into your 
life and you're like really 

1065
00:57:45,310 --> 00:57:48,830
loving and appreciating them? 
Ooh, OK all right. 

1066
00:57:48,830 --> 00:57:50,950
So inspired. 
Definitely. 

1067
00:57:50,950 --> 00:57:54,110
Without that would have to be 
Missy Elliott again, because 

1068
00:57:54,110 --> 00:57:57,070
she's so innovative. 
I just think she's amazing. 

1069
00:57:57,070 --> 00:58:00,830
She's recreated her sound 
herself so many times. 

1070
00:58:01,340 --> 00:58:05,340
I love her style of songwriting,
how she uses harmony and the 

1071
00:58:05,340 --> 00:58:08,100
fact that she, you know, she 
sings, she raps, she produces, 

1072
00:58:08,100 --> 00:58:11,100
she does it, she does it all. 
And like, I just find her a 

1073
00:58:11,100 --> 00:58:14,180
complete inspiration. 
So I think Missy Elliott, for 

1074
00:58:14,180 --> 00:58:17,300
sure. 
Alanis Morissette, I was very 

1075
00:58:17,300 --> 00:58:21,260
inspired by Alanis when I was, 
when I was kind of penning a lot

1076
00:58:21,300 --> 00:58:26,020
because of her, her narrative 
and her conversational way of 

1077
00:58:26,020 --> 00:58:29,420
writing and the fact that she 
didn't rhyme words that just. 

1078
00:58:29,830 --> 00:58:33,670
Blew my mind. 
So I'm just the power behind her

1079
00:58:33,670 --> 00:58:38,110
voice. 
I found her amazing Joan 

1080
00:58:38,150 --> 00:58:42,390
Armatrading, who's still 
obviously with us and just doing

1081
00:58:42,390 --> 00:58:44,950
great things. 
And I love the fact that she's 

1082
00:58:44,950 --> 00:58:48,390
still kind of hair and doing her
stuff. 

1083
00:58:48,470 --> 00:58:52,550
Joni Mitchell as well. 
Can't you can't mention without 

1084
00:58:52,550 --> 00:58:56,150
mentioning Joni Mitchell. 
I mean amazing. 

1085
00:58:56,590 --> 00:58:59,940
And then the newer. 
Let me think, Let me think, Let 

1086
00:58:59,940 --> 00:59:00,780
me think. 
You know what? 

1087
00:59:00,780 --> 00:59:02,140
I'm going to have to go with 
Camille. 

1088
00:59:02,140 --> 00:59:05,220
Camille Purcell. 
I met Camille. 

1089
00:59:05,580 --> 00:59:09,420
I want to say I met Camille 
maybe 2012 or so. 

1090
00:59:09,900 --> 00:59:15,180
I'm shy going into the studios 
and Kilburn and kind of really 

1091
00:59:15,180 --> 00:59:18,460
honing her craft, learning an 
instrument, etcetera, and just 

1092
00:59:18,460 --> 00:59:20,020
saying, oh, I really want to do 
music. 

1093
00:59:20,020 --> 00:59:21,260
I really want to be a 
songwriter. 

1094
00:59:21,580 --> 00:59:25,020
And then a couple years later, 
it was like Saturday's blowing 

1095
00:59:25,020 --> 00:59:26,900
up. 
She's this mega song, right? 

1096
00:59:26,900 --> 00:59:28,740
You're picking up. 
Oh my God. 

1097
00:59:29,300 --> 00:59:33,460
And it's just been an absolute 
joy watching her journey and 

1098
00:59:33,460 --> 00:59:37,660
watching how involved in the 
whole process that she is in 

1099
00:59:37,660 --> 00:59:40,460
terms of vocal production, 
arrangement. 

1100
00:59:40,460 --> 00:59:43,140
Maybe because I do vocal 
production and arrangement, it's

1101
00:59:43,140 --> 00:59:46,980
like, Oh my God, the vocals, you
you thinking about all the 

1102
00:59:46,980 --> 00:59:50,340
details. 
So yeah, that really excites me.

1103
00:59:50,340 --> 00:59:53,300
And there's loads, there's so 
many, but I'll stick to those 

1104
00:59:53,300 --> 00:59:55,290
ones. 
These are all great answers. 

1105
00:59:55,290 --> 00:59:57,570
And I'm so glad actually, 
because sometimes people are 

1106
00:59:58,090 --> 01:00:00,330
basically for people listening. 
I've made a playlist, so 

1107
01:00:00,330 --> 01:00:02,530
everybody's answers have gone 
into a playlist that's available

1108
01:00:02,530 --> 01:00:04,850
on Spotify and Apple, so you can
find them. 

1109
01:00:05,050 --> 01:00:07,530
And I just want it to be like, 
let's stick on this playlist 

1110
01:00:07,530 --> 01:00:11,570
that's like celebrating these 
incredible women in music and 

1111
01:00:11,570 --> 01:00:13,730
have a dance. 
So we've got some great ones to 

1112
01:00:13,730 --> 01:00:14,970
add to the list. 
Thank you. 

1113
01:00:15,210 --> 01:00:17,290
I'm also, if you don't mind, can
I ask you a bonus question 

1114
01:00:17,290 --> 01:00:19,940
because you just. 
Think of it because you were 

1115
01:00:19,940 --> 01:00:22,220
talking about your own work. 
So what's the favorite? 

1116
01:00:22,220 --> 01:00:24,220
What's your favorite song that 
you've ever worked on? 

1117
01:00:24,700 --> 01:00:27,420
Oh God, that's hard. 
And I've really put you on the 

1118
01:00:27,420 --> 01:00:29,580
spot here. 
Sorry I wasn't planning to ask 

1119
01:00:29,580 --> 01:00:31,500
you that, but now I'm, like, 
genuinely curious. 

1120
01:00:31,580 --> 01:00:33,260
I don't know. 
I don't know if I've got a 

1121
01:00:33,300 --> 01:00:36,780
favorite song. 
I I have to say I did love. 

1122
01:00:37,340 --> 01:00:42,380
I loved doing just a little. 
It wasn't for Liberty X in mind 

1123
01:00:42,380 --> 01:00:45,010
at all. 
We were actually pitching for 

1124
01:00:45,050 --> 01:00:47,050
Tom Jones. 
So when you listen to it again, 

1125
01:00:47,050 --> 01:00:50,490
listen to it with that in mind, 
we were actually pitching for 

1126
01:00:50,490 --> 01:00:54,130
Tom Jones and it was like, okay.
What would an older man say, you

1127
01:00:54,130 --> 01:00:57,010
know, about a younger woman? 
It's like you work it a little 

1128
01:00:57,010 --> 01:01:00,290
bit, you've got this thing, but 
you don't even know what you've 

1129
01:01:00,290 --> 01:01:01,410
got. 
Do you know what I mean? 

1130
01:01:01,410 --> 01:01:04,570
It was more from that mindset 
when we wrote the song and then 

1131
01:01:04,570 --> 01:01:07,650
it was put on hold by Anastasia 
and then. 

1132
01:01:08,510 --> 01:01:11,550
Liberty X's A and R came in, and
I think the reason why I was 

1133
01:01:11,550 --> 01:01:14,510
saying it's one of my favorites 
is because of the whole process.

1134
01:01:14,950 --> 01:01:18,870
So I we wrote that song. 
I was heavily pregnant. 

1135
01:01:19,150 --> 01:01:22,110
It was the last song I wrote 
before before I gave birth. 

1136
01:01:22,590 --> 01:01:26,070
And then they wanted it to be 
their priority song. 

1137
01:01:26,070 --> 01:01:28,990
And it was like, it has to be 
recorded within this time frame.

1138
01:01:28,990 --> 01:01:30,470
And I'm like, Oh my God, I'm 
having a baby. 

1139
01:01:30,470 --> 01:01:33,150
I can't be doing all of this. 
And they came to my house 

1140
01:01:33,150 --> 01:01:35,430
literally five days after I gave
birth. 

1141
01:01:35,870 --> 01:01:39,470
They auditioned the song and it 
was like, yeah, I think we could

1142
01:01:39,470 --> 01:01:42,270
sing it, but I really want to 
vocal produce it. 

1143
01:01:42,390 --> 01:01:45,550
We went to the studio. 
I think it was 5 or 10 days. 

1144
01:01:45,670 --> 01:01:50,790
After that I went with my mom in
tow, Moses Basket, you know, 

1145
01:01:50,830 --> 01:01:54,630
feeding every two hours, 
recorded their vocals and 

1146
01:01:54,630 --> 01:01:58,430
literally by March it was out 
and it went straight in at #1. 

1147
01:01:58,670 --> 01:02:01,130
So that was my. 
I think that was one of my 

1148
01:02:01,130 --> 01:02:05,130
favorite processes and they have
such a lovely group, you know 

1149
01:02:05,410 --> 01:02:09,490
personality wise and they worked
really hard in the studio to get

1150
01:02:09,490 --> 01:02:13,690
the vocal and kind of get the 
vibe, catch the vibe of the song

1151
01:02:13,810 --> 01:02:17,410
and they they kept it really 
authentic in terms of how we 

1152
01:02:17,410 --> 01:02:20,570
wanted the song to sound. 
So I think that was really my 

1153
01:02:20,570 --> 01:02:24,090
favorite process. 
And can I add just one more? 

1154
01:02:24,170 --> 01:02:27,050
Yes please. 
The other one would have been 

1155
01:02:27,130 --> 01:02:29,810
and it's cause I was totally 
fangirling. 

1156
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,920
And was Tina Turner, you know, 
when she decided to do one of my

1157
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:36,160
songs for her greatest hits 
album? 

1158
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:40,720
And I was like, what? 
And it was just that thing of I 

1159
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:42,640
love the song, I want to keep 
you on the BB's. 

1160
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:45,680
Was that me? 
It was great. 

1161
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:48,760
And she did it in one take. 
She did it in one take. 

1162
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:52,840
She raised it by I think her 
tone sang it in one take and was

1163
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:54,040
out. 
I didn't even get to see her. 

1164
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:55,200
I got there and I was like, oh, 
she's gone. 

1165
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:57,120
She's already. 
She just did it in one take. 

1166
01:02:57,160 --> 01:02:58,070
But. 
What? 

1167
01:02:58,230 --> 01:03:02,550
Yeah, so that was another one. 
It was like, yeah, I've arrived.

1168
01:03:02,550 --> 01:03:04,670
Tina Turner has sang a song of 
mine. 

1169
01:03:06,030 --> 01:03:10,110
Talk about setting the bar high.
My God. 

1170
01:03:11,070 --> 01:03:11,470
Yeah. 
Thank you. 

1171
01:03:11,510 --> 01:03:13,430
Well, thank you for sharing 
those extra questions. 

1172
01:03:13,470 --> 01:03:15,070
And also, do you know what's 
really funny like that? 

1173
01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:19,640
The Just a little song, so 
catchy and memorable. 

1174
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:22,400
I haven't heard it for a long 
time and I'm listening to you. 

1175
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:26,840
I'm just like just the little, 
like it's so catchy. 

1176
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:29,080
It's such a great song, it. 
Was just good vibes. 

1177
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:31,200
It was just, you know, a 
positive vibe. 

1178
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:34,960
And it's really nice because the
the people that I wrote that 

1179
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:37,720
song with, they're great friends
of mine and they're brothers. 

1180
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:40,200
So it's kind of like this family
connection. 

1181
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:43,520
And we were talking the other 
day to a group of people and 

1182
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:45,950
saying. 
But the songwriting element was 

1183
01:03:45,950 --> 01:03:49,110
the last thing. 
We'd go to the studio and we'd 

1184
01:03:49,110 --> 01:03:53,270
talk and laugh and eat cake and 
chat shit all day and then be 

1185
01:03:53,270 --> 01:03:55,950
like, oh shit, we've got the 
right song like 2 hours. 

1186
01:03:55,950 --> 01:03:59,230
Let's let's do it. 
And it would always be that good

1187
01:03:59,230 --> 01:04:01,790
vibe. 
So I think the reason why that 

1188
01:04:01,790 --> 01:04:04,510
song's done so well is because 
you can actually feel that kind 

1189
01:04:04,510 --> 01:04:06,830
of good energy. 
Totally. 

1190
01:04:06,830 --> 01:04:09,150
It really comes through. 
I love that. 

1191
01:04:09,580 --> 01:04:10,780
Well, thank you so much, 
Michelle. 

1192
01:04:10,780 --> 01:04:14,700
It's honestly been a pleasure 
and it's so wonderful. 

1193
01:04:14,700 --> 01:04:18,140
I could ask you questions for 
like the rest of the day because

1194
01:04:18,780 --> 01:04:20,300
there's so much that we could 
talk about. 

1195
01:04:20,300 --> 01:04:24,180
But I really appreciate your 
time and for thank you today. 

1196
01:04:24,180 --> 01:04:26,300
So thank you so much you're. 
Welcome. 

1197
01:04:26,300 --> 01:04:29,900
And I love speaking with you. 
It's been great and it's yeah, 

1198
01:04:29,940 --> 01:04:31,340
it's been really good. 
Thank you. 

1199
01:04:31,740 --> 01:04:32,500
Lovely. 
Thank you. 

1200
01:04:32,500 --> 01:04:39,120
Anyway, thanks for listening. 
And if you enjoyed this episode,

1201
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:41,480
please like, share and 
subscribe.