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Anyway. 
Anyway. 

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Hello and welcome to whose song 
is it anyway. 

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I'm dr. 
Haley Bosher. 

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And for this special season of 
the podcast focusing on women in

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the music industry I'll be your 
host. 

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So, welcome Grace. 
Hello. 

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Good morning. 
Tell our listeners what you do 

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in the music industry. 
What I do in the music industry,

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I run a national campaign called
music for dementia, which is 

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funded by the only foundation. 
And it's a campaign to ensure 

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that everyone living with 
dementia has access to music as 

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part of their care. 
And the reason why we're so 

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passionate about that is because
of the way in which music 

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interacts with dementia and what
it can do for those living with 

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dementia. 
And those importantly, who Are 

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for them. 
Let's go back in time a little 

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bit. 
Like, how did you start this 

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career? 
How did you get into this area 

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in the first place? 
Gosh, that feels like a big 

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question. 
I had a very young age got into 

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music and I don't come from a 
musical family at all. 

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There is no musical genius in 
the field in the family. 

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I was just naturally curious 
about it and got a real thrill 

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and Buzz from singing. 
I've sang in churches, I like 

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lots of people started. 
Of pain recorder. 

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I taught myself how to read 
music, playing the recorder and 

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came home of the violin. 
Much to my parents horror 

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because back in the days, when, 
you know, you could get free 

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music lessons and use free 
instruments from school. 

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And I blame my best friend 
actually a lot for this because 

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at secondary school, she started
to learn to play the bassoon. 

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And I went to her house one 
night and said, what is that? 

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That's amazing. 
I want to go on that, and honked

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away on it, and the next day 
brazenly, Ran into school and 

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said to the head of music, I can
play the bassoon and he just 

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said, I do not think you can do 
that. 

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I said, I've, I can I can. 
He said, I will, I will give you

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a free between us and if you can
just put the thing together and 

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so I put it together and he 
looked at me in amazement and 

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then said right? 
Okay, you can have a lesson now 

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can you make a noise on it? 
And I honked a few notes. 

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He went okay quick quick, let's 
get you some lessons and then 

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suddenly there was an instrument
that appeared out of nowhere 

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because there's always a bassoon
in a Cupboard somewhere and then

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it dominated my teenage years. 
And then went to music college. 

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And it was a real shock because 
actually, you don't get taught, 

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especially coming from a 
comprehensive School background.

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What music college is really 
like it's a completely different

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world. 
There are kids there who have 

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been doing this since the age of
four. 

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They've got networks. 
That was a big differentiator 

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was the amount of level of 
networking that existed that 

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pre-existed before, you know, 
kids came to music college. 

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And so I did, I did my degree 
and I pretty quickly realized 

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actually that I didn't want to 
be having built this dream as a 

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teenager and practiced for five 
hours a day and given myself 

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scoliosis and, you know, really 
lift my instrument and my 

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passion. 
I realized I didn't want to be a

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first bassoonist in a Orchestra 
and there were lots of reasons 

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for that. 
Not least because I was told 

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that you'd earn a maximum of 75.
90 pounds a day, having put in a

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12-hour day. 
And I thought, how does that 

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work? 
I've put in thousands and 

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thousands of hours and I'm going
to get paid pennies to entertain

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people and perform and give 
something of myself every day, 

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but also the world is so 
insecure. 

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You don't know whether you're 
going to be working from one day

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to the next. 
You're only as good as your last

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gig, all of those kinds of 
things. 

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But I was Finding there was a 
bigger gaping hole. 

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Actually, for me, which was what
is this about? 

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Who am I doing? 
This for what's the purpose of 

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this music? 
Making a my just date entry? 

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Basically, am I just churning 
out notes for the sake of it? 

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What is the bigger purpose of 
this? 

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And I felt something really 
absent in all of it. 

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Which is why do we make music? 
What's that about? 

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And consequently I left my 
bassoon at music College. 

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After I finished my degree, I 
left it in the cupboard for six 

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months and I thought, well, I 
better go and get that because 

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it's worth a bit. 
A bit of money. 

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I don't know, since you're just 
call, this thing went from 

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something that you were 
physically touching, you know, 

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and holding and playing and, you
know, there's such an emotional 

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connection with an instrument 
that you spend that much time 

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playing for 5 hours a day to 
something. 

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That you forgot in a Cupboard. 
Yeah. 

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And yeah, it was, it was really 
straight. 

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I felt like I'd lost a huge part
of me and, you know, even my 

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posture as I sat was even as a 
bassoonists posture and I Just 

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felt immensely sad and so I 
didn't play for two years after 

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leaving music college. 
And I thought that's it. 

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Maybe I'm done. 
What do I do now? 

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Hang on a minute. 
They didn't. 

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They didn't teach his what to do
with a degree in music 

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performance. 
If you'd haven't got any skills 

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and that was the scary thing, 
because you don't come out with 

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academic skills. 
Particularly because you only do

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four hours, why did only four 
hours of academic lectures a 

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week? 
You know, you're not proficient 

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in that sense but you've got 
that capacity. 

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That's not been fostered in the 
same way as if you've gone and 

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done your academic degree, you 
are great as a music performer, 

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but what does that mean in the 
practical sense? 

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And it took me a long time to 
translate those skills. 

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You know, in terms of it means 
being able to lead means being 

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able to sit alongside it means. 
Being able to achieve tune, it 

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means being able to see the 
bigger picture being able to 

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shine at the right moments. 
All those skills that make up a 

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musician. 
But actually they often aren't 

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translated into The workplace 
because oh, it's just nice, 

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being a musician. 
All that's great. 

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You've got a lovely set of 
skills but actually, what does 

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that mean in the workplace? 
Well, it means an awful lot. 

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It doesn't actually get 
articulated when it comes to a 

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person's back or a job 
description. 

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Totally, I actually really 
similar experience that I did a 

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Performing Arts diploma at 
college and then got to the end 

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of it. 
And for similar reasons of like,

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oh, but I come from a 
working-class background and I 

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was like I'm not gonna be able 
to pay bills divers, like I 

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don't know what I'm going to do.
So I better do something 

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academic that will get me a job 
at the end. 

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I'm going to do a law degree but
you know what in my job now and 

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all the things I do, I probably 
benefited more from those two 

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years in Performing Arts 
confidence stage presence there,

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lot of critical analysis. 
Actually when you think about 

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how am I going to perform this? 
Mostly memorizing scripts. 

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That's coming hand. 
Absolutely. 

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But memory, there's loads of 
things that I think, I'm so 

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great. 
Faithful I did that and no 

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regrets whatsoever but same as 
you it took me a long time. 

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To realize that doing that 
training was is totally 

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transferable here and I would 
add human skills because you to 

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music for music to function. 
People need to be able to be 

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with each other. 
Yeah. 

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And so whether you're back front
of house back of house 

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production, stage management 
performing part of the courts. 

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Whatever your role is, you've 
got to be human, you've got to 

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be able to be human. 
And what I found being able to 

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take some time out was really to
think about why I love music. 

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Hmm. 
And that set me on a whole path 

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of its exploration and Discovery
and really it was in part 

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inspired an awful lot by my 
younger youngest brother who has

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cerebral palsy and learning 
difficulties. 

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So he had a really bad storm own
would get very anxious and to 

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look at him, he wouldn't 
necessarily know that he's got 

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sir. 
Double palsy. 

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But he had this amazing way. 
We didn't know that he had 

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learning disabilities at school 
because he was able to memorize 

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books, and it wasn't until he 
had to do a reading test and he 

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couldn't read. 
What was on the page that they 

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discovered there was something 
wrong and it was because he'd 

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been able to memorize things and
take them in and take and make 

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characters out of them. 
He got into acting. 

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And watching him go up on stage 
where he bought these scripts to

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life, whatever they were. 
And there was no stutter, there 

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was no stammered. 
There was just this confidence 

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that blossomed out him. 
And I thought, gosh, you're 

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acting does that for him, then 
surely music has got to do that 

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and then some more. 
So I started to look into music 

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therapy and so I went and did 
some introductory courses and I 

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was immediately hooked my like 
this is it, this is it because 

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this is about people and 
relationships and that to me, 

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What music is all about musics, 
like this, almost the secondary 

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thing for me. 
What music is about, is about 

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Connections, relationships, 
communication and music therapy,

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was that in, you know, all 
mashed together in the most 

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amazing way, and I always 
attribute this one moment to why

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I went on and then did my music 
therapy Masters? 

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Which was a data center in 
Hackney with a group of adults 

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with dementia and the Therapist 
was absolutely extraordinary and

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she just brought these people 
together in the most 

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compassionate way. 
Really? 

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They all were sitting in the 
room, they're all in their own 

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worlds, and their own ways. 
And the way in which she 

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captured the mood and the 
feeling through music, all 

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improvised and made everyone, 
have a voice created that voice 

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in that space for them brought 
them then into being together as

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a group and It made sense of 
somebody's babbling and gave it 

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context and meaning it, it gave 
somebody's eye gaze. 

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A reason to then gaze to 
somebody else and it brought 

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somebody else literally out of 
their sleep. 

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To the point where we were all 
up on our feet and dancing 

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together, and I thought I want 
to be able to do that, I want to

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be able to bring people together
like that to create meaningful 

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experiences. 
Because why should those people 

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be written off because they've 
got dementia? 

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Mmm. 
At the same time, I'd been so, 

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You finding my way back into the
world of music, through music 

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education, really. 
So I was working on the music 

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Manifesto campaign, so that was 
back, sort of mid 2000 and then 

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as a as a result of that, very 
successful Campaign, which 

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secured a lot of money for music
education, I was then involved 

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in the singer up Campaign, which
was all about getting Primary 

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School singing again. 
And whilst doing that, I was 

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then beginning to work for the 
British Association for music 

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therapy. 
In an admin capacity. 

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And so I was sort of knitting 
things together and then went 

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and did my Master's while 
continuing to work for the 

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association the a PMT as it was 
back then and then loved my 

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experience of training as a 
music therapist because actually

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the academic side of me, really 
got to fly a bit because I 

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really missed that and I you 
know delved into the theory but 

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also got to experience such a 
range of people through all the 

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Basements that you do and the 
people that you meet when you're

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training. 
It's so what is a music 

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therapist as suppose, one way of
thinking about it? 

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The elevator pitches, it's like 
going to see a talkin therapist 

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but you do with music. 
So a music therapist has got a 

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psychological training so it 
understands child. 

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Attachment Theory, family 
Theory, you know, all the 

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different sort of theories out 
there around psychological 

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well-being. 
But we're putting into music 

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things are often. 
Don't feel safe to say verbally,

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or you haven't got the capacity 
to say, physically, 

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physiologically or emotionally, 
it's just too much. 

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So, I often say, you know, when 
words are too much, not enough 

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or no longer available musics, 
there is that other channel of 

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communication. 
So when I worked in acute, 

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Psychiatry some of the adults 
that I worked with had such 

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terrifying and torturous 
thoughts that to say them out, 

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loud would Make them real for 
them. 

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So that voice that's saying go 
and do something harmful to 

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yourself, or do something really
dangerous by articulating that 

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that might give them the 
compulsion to act upon that. 

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But if we can put that energy 
that emotional power into music,

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it makes it safer because 
actually, you can work with that

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and you can give it context and 
meaning, and it's contained and 

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that's the really powerful 
thing. 

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It's Contained and you can 
record it, you can play it back,

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you can analyze it with the 
person that you're working with.

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So we often did that actually in
Psychiatry because it was a 

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moment of reflection and 
realization and often helped 

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somebody appreciate depending on
their psychological state where 

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they might be at. 
So if they were in a more 

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resilient State, they would be 
able to listen back with a kind 

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of critical air and say aw, You 
know what, when we were 

239
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recording at, I thought that 
sounded great but actually that 

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sounds awful and whoa. 
Hang on. 

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Can we can we do it again and 
you'd realize that actually, 

242
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there's a real sense of self 
there. 

243
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Whereas, with some people they 
would record and, you know, 

244
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they'd be playing, maybe an open
string data tune, electric 

245
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guitar and I mean, it was 
horrific like auditoria, you 

246
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know, you be like, whoa, whoa, 
whoa. 

247
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Where's the music here? 
Where's the music here? 

248
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But it's, it wasn't about the 
music. 

249
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It was about the expression and 
effect. 

250
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The emotion behind the 
expression and then they play it

251
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back and then actually might 
then lead into an explanation of

252
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what that music was for them. 
So they might be able to start 

253
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talking about what that was, but
it was a way of containing, but 

254
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:06,400
also illustrating and bringing 
to life in a safe way, what they

255
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were experiencing or another way
of thinking about it is when 

256
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you're very vulnerable, It's 
very hard to put into words 

257
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because it can feel very 
permanent. 

258
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I've said that I can't take it 
back whereas actually there's a 

259
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there's a safeness in music or 
they can be because you can 

260
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articulate something, but it can
be a bit Bleak, you know, it 

261
00:14:27,300 --> 00:14:32,000
doesn't have to be your kind of 
expressing an emotion or 

262
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,400
something emotionally. 
It's very cathartic, isn't it? 

263
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,700
Like I'm thinking about what 
you're saying and also I've done

264
00:14:37,700 --> 00:14:40,700
a lot of therapy, I've done 
different types of therapy, 

265
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psychotherapy Beep, CBT, couples
therapy, you name it. 

266
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I've done it. 
So I'm thinking about my 

267
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experience of that and how 
different it might have been. 

268
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,000
If it was music therapy, given 
your explanation and there was 

269
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definitely times when therapy 
was re-traumatizing for me and I

270
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couldn't I didn't have the words
to articulate some of the things

271
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and then when I did get to a 
point where I could speak the 

272
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words, you're right there is 
it's terrifying. 

273
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Mmm. 
And so I really love that idea. 

274
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It's almost like a language that
you can understand but you don't

275
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know the Civics of what I'm 
saying, when I'm not ready or 

276
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don't want to verbalize 
something. 

277
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I'm giving you a way to 
understand how I'm feeling 

278
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rather than like specific 
reflection of an experience. 

279
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So I could just really 
appreciate how it could be so 

280
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effective as a way to work 
through an emotion. 

281
00:15:32,500 --> 00:15:36,300
Absolutely. 
And as your role as a therapist 

282
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is to be the stage upon which 
your client shines so you're 

283
00:15:39,500 --> 00:15:44,500
giving them a context for what 
might I feel strange or alien or

284
00:15:44,500 --> 00:15:48,600
uncomfortable or difficult and 
you're you're working through a 

285
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process of transformation. 
So you're taking something and 

286
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:59,100
which might feel naughty 
powerful overwhelming and 

287
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transforming that energy. 
So thinking about the third law 

288
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,200
of thermodynamics nothing is 
destroyed or created its what do

289
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,400
you do with that? 
And and therapy is a 

290
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,200
transformative experience and 
music is a transformative 

291
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,300
experience. 
You don't have to be in a 

292
00:16:13,500 --> 00:16:15,500
therapeutic context. 
It's boots that you put on a 

293
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piece of music, you're feeling 
like one thing, you listen to 

294
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that music, you have a response 
and you engage in an onion 

295
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,000
reaction to it. 
And you feel something else at 

296
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,100
the end, that is the process of 
music. 

297
00:16:27,500 --> 00:16:32,300
So really, it's a developed 
version of that, we turn to 

298
00:16:32,300 --> 00:16:35,400
therapy for lots of different 
reasons, whether it's palliative

299
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:36,600
care. 
I mean, some of the most 

300
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,100
profound work is in palliative 
care because bereavement is 

301
00:16:40,100 --> 00:16:43,600
hard, bereavement is Be 
difficult and I think lots of 

302
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,700
people will resonate with that 
over the last three years 

303
00:16:46,700 --> 00:16:51,700
particularly but some of the 
work I found really moving was 

304
00:16:52,300 --> 00:16:56,700
when somebody would talk to a 
music therapist and say, look I 

305
00:16:56,700 --> 00:17:00,200
want to leave a legacy. 
I don't know how to do it but I 

306
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,900
can't say it. 
I can't I can't tell my family 

307
00:17:02,900 --> 00:17:05,800
how much I love them, but I love
this song. 

308
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,099
What can we do with this song? 
And then the therapist would say

309
00:17:09,099 --> 00:17:13,400
well who matters to you and And 
what kinds of things would you 

310
00:17:13,407 --> 00:17:17,400
like to say to them? 
How do we take those lyrics 

311
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,500
change them so that they're 
meaningful to you and your 

312
00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:24,900
family and we'll keep that chord
structure or will stick blindly 

313
00:17:24,900 --> 00:17:26,900
to that song. 
You know, we'll go with it and 

314
00:17:26,900 --> 00:17:29,600
we'll fit the lyrics to the 
structure and all of those kinds

315
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,400
of thing. 
But in doing so you get to leave

316
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,200
a legacy and that's something 
that your family can always 

317
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:41,100
return to and that is the gift 
of Music, isn't it? 

318
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,800
But I think Music can be such a 
comforter in the in the face of 

319
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:50,500
loss and bereavement the, you 
know, it's really it's a really 

320
00:17:50,500 --> 00:17:54,400
special gift to be able to 
facilitate and music does that 

321
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,100
thing. 
It's that incredible Bridge, 

322
00:17:56,100 --> 00:17:58,300
whether it's a bridge into 
dementia, whether it's a bridge 

323
00:17:58,300 --> 00:18:01,000
through palliative care or 
whether it's a bridge into 

324
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,800
somebody's learning disabled 
space, you know, there's it does

325
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,500
that incredible Act of bridging.
Yeah, it just moves through 

326
00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:11,800
barriers doesn't it has this 
amazing ability? 

327
00:18:12,300 --> 00:18:16,900
Connect people, whether it's 
strangers in a concert. 

328
00:18:16,900 --> 00:18:19,400
Think got live music. 
I mean, you feel the energy of 

329
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,800
the room or like you're saying 
in a really intimate powerful 

330
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,800
kind of personal? 
Hmm, you can connect with 

331
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,400
someone who's not even there 
anymore it's just beautiful. 

332
00:18:29,500 --> 00:18:32,600
I love it and I do think in 
general we're talking about the 

333
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,400
ways that music is powerful in 
these kind of anecdotal 

334
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,000
experience, shal ways but the 
science is is catching up, 

335
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,800
right? 
I would have been reading About 

336
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,600
experiments. 
Well they'll put a composer into

337
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:51,600
an MRI scanner and they will 
improvise and they watch how the

338
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,200
brain responds and all this 
amazing data that showing that 

339
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,000
you are more likely. 
If you are a student studying 

340
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,500
for exams to do better in your 
academic subjects. 

341
00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:02,700
If you're learning a musical 
instrument at the same time you 

342
00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:05,300
know, all these incredible 
studies that aren't actually 

343
00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:09,500
proving what we already know 
which is you know the power of 

344
00:19:09,500 --> 00:19:14,300
music is tangible. 
And it is there in whether it's 

345
00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:18,000
to do with well-being, and like 
you said, across all whether 

346
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,400
it's learning difficulties or 
whether it's just making life 

347
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,200
and Society, a better place 
Community bringing people 

348
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,600
together. 
I just think it's absolutely 

349
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:28,400
fascinating. 
I can't get enough of these 

350
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:32,300
studies of like, you know stroke
victims the people who listen to

351
00:19:32,300 --> 00:19:36,200
music as part of their recovery 
recovered faster and more 

352
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,700
permanently the even than those 
who listen to audio books. 

353
00:19:40,300 --> 00:19:42,800
So it's not about the act of 
sitting in listening. 

354
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,800
Because sometimes I think with 
with those things is it that you

355
00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:48,800
sit quite meditatively and have 
a quiet. 

356
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,200
Maybe they're breathing calmly 
and all this stuff, no, because 

357
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,100
the audiobook didn't do the same
effect as the music in the 

358
00:19:56,108 --> 00:19:59,100
recovery of a stroke, which I 
just think it's kind of magical 

359
00:19:59,100 --> 00:20:01,100
because it's like your heart. 
You're here. 

360
00:20:01,100 --> 00:20:07,700
Music is a legit Healing Hearts.
I mean we and and we're smiling 

361
00:20:07,700 --> 00:20:10,200
as we talk about this because 
that we were already 

362
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,400
subconsciously and consciously 
Conjuring up how we might have 

363
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,200
been experiencing music music is
in us because we're inherently 

364
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:17,800
musical beings. 
We are either. 

365
00:20:18,700 --> 00:20:21,500
You know, passionately believe 
this musical creatures. 

366
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,700
You know, it's the first thing 
we hear we, you know, I'm others

367
00:20:25,700 --> 00:20:27,800
armies, cool beans. 
They've got rhythm running 

368
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,500
through them, they got Harmony, 
they've got, they've got a vocal

369
00:20:30,500 --> 00:20:33,500
line, you know? 
They're just, just then walking 

370
00:20:33,500 --> 00:20:36,800
and US feeling that we're 
naturally really cool beans. 

371
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,900
Yeah, absolutely. 
The swishing of the amniotic 

372
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,800
fluid, you know, we are Urkel 
creatures. 

373
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:48,400
And what's so sad in the west 
often is that that's crushed so 

374
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,800
early because we want to 
formalize it, you know, we get 

375
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,000
we have to learn it in a certain
way when actually we can absorb 

376
00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:01,000
music in so many different ways.
So I think we are just beginning

377
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:06,000
to really bring to the to the 
for this thing that we've been 

378
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:11,400
talking about the power of music
and the way that can transcend, 

379
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,800
what A talking about whether 
it's Health well-being, societal

380
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,500
challenges. 
It's not a Panacea and it's not 

381
00:21:17,500 --> 00:21:20,900
going to make everyone walk 
around and feel super brilliant 

382
00:21:20,900 --> 00:21:23,600
all the time. 
But it has these tangible, as 

383
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,900
you say and very real impacts 
that we're not harnessing 

384
00:21:26,900 --> 00:21:29,900
anywhere near as much as we 
could be which is why I felt so 

385
00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:33,100
passionately that we had to put 
that report out. 

386
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,600
Why we had to galvanize? 
Not only the music industry to 

387
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:39,700
this Mission but the health 
care. 

388
00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:44,200
The care sector The Wider way in
which we think about health and 

389
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,000
well-being. 
We are in the worst possible 

390
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,700
position at the moment. 
You know, we're sitting here 

391
00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:49,600
recording this beginning of 
January. 

392
00:21:49,900 --> 00:21:52,900
We know that the NHS is in a 
very broken State. 

393
00:21:52,900 --> 00:21:55,100
We know that social cares and 
very broken state. 

394
00:21:55,100 --> 00:21:57,500
That record has been playing the
same track. 

395
00:21:57,500 --> 00:22:00,700
Now for a long time, not just 
the last three years but for 

396
00:22:00,700 --> 00:22:04,300
decades because we're not 
thinking about preventable 

397
00:22:04,700 --> 00:22:06,800
health. 
We're not thinking about a 

398
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,600
health in a forward-looking way.
We're constantly firefighting 

399
00:22:10,900 --> 00:22:14,500
whereas actually, if we started 
to think about health in a more 

400
00:22:14,500 --> 00:22:19,200
preventative rehabilitative way,
we might not be in such a 

401
00:22:19,208 --> 00:22:21,200
difficult position at the 
moment. 

402
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,000
But also in the way we think 
about each other, the way we 

403
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,700
care are the compassion that we 
could have for each other. 

404
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,000
And if we could do that 
differently, and I genuinely 

405
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,700
believe that music gives us a 
way to do that differently. 

406
00:22:34,100 --> 00:22:38,300
We might find that We might not 
have such churn in Social care. 

407
00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:41,100
We might have people who feel 
more valued, who feel more 

408
00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:43,700
passionate about their job, who 
feel more rewarded, when they go

409
00:22:43,700 --> 00:22:46,900
to work, because they feel 
tangible rewards. 

410
00:22:47,100 --> 00:22:50,000
They see that the people they're
caring for responding to them. 

411
00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:54,700
I think that's but there's there
is momentum building and I 

412
00:22:54,700 --> 00:22:58,600
wonder if was thinking about 
when you were talking is how 

413
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,900
you're also seeing in the 
healthcare system for all its 

414
00:23:03,100 --> 00:23:06,100
woes. 
But this holistic approach to 

415
00:23:06,100 --> 00:23:08,800
Health Care Now much more than 
ever before. 

416
00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:12,800
So this idea that mind and body 
are connected. 

417
00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:19,500
We're seeing a shift now in GPS,
prescribing mindfulness and 

418
00:23:19,500 --> 00:23:21,500
meditation. 
And all that kind of stuff. 

419
00:23:21,500 --> 00:23:24,600
And I think what you're talking 
about comes at such a pivotal 

420
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,300
moment where these kind of 
things had to happen at the same

421
00:23:27,300 --> 00:23:29,300
time. 
Do you think where we are 

422
00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:32,700
thinking more open-minded? 
You did lie about what is 

423
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,800
well-being? 
What is health care? 

424
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,500
How do we look after ourselves? 
It's not just take a pill, you 

425
00:23:39,500 --> 00:23:42,900
know, there are other tools that
are just as effective. 

426
00:23:42,900 --> 00:23:46,400
If not more on a lot of 
occasions in terms of, you know,

427
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,900
there's no side effects. 
There's no negative side effects

428
00:23:48,900 --> 00:23:52,200
to listening to zoom Music in 
the same way that you might find

429
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,500
with taking an antidepressant. 
So I wonder if we're at like a 

430
00:23:55,500 --> 00:23:59,400
real important moment in terms 
of that kind of coming together 

431
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,600
of a progression in how we think
about health care and a 

432
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,400
progression in how we think 
about music at the same time. 

433
00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:08,300
Absolutely. 
I think what's happened 

434
00:24:08,900 --> 00:24:13,000
seismically as we thought about 
personalization and what it 

435
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,900
means to have care, that matters
to you what matters to you. 

436
00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:19,400
And why? 
And I think when you start from 

437
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,100
that position, You are much more
likely to get to where you want 

438
00:24:23,100 --> 00:24:27,400
to be for that person more 
quickly because you're you're 

439
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,600
listening to them and we all 
need to be seen heard and felt 

440
00:24:31,100 --> 00:24:34,500
we instantly feel better when 
those three things happen, you 

441
00:24:34,500 --> 00:24:36,600
know, I was just going to say 
there are studies that show that

442
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,400
people who go to the doctor feel
better, even if the doctor 

443
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,500
doesn't do anything because it's
relational. 

444
00:24:41,500 --> 00:24:44,600
Yeah, we are social creatures, 
we need connection. 

445
00:24:44,700 --> 00:24:47,200
Yeah. 
And I think that what we're 

446
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,800
saying with music is it? 
It's a shortcut to them. 

447
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,700
It's Personal. 
Yeah but it's also Collective. 

448
00:24:53,900 --> 00:24:57,700
So you know if you're finding 
that you don't belong, actually 

449
00:24:57,700 --> 00:25:00,100
one of the most powerful things 
you can do is go and be part of 

450
00:25:00,100 --> 00:25:03,800
a group that makes music whether
you're singing tune or not as a 

451
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,200
rather. 
Yeah it doesn't matter a lot of 

452
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:06,700
time. 
It's about the relationships 

453
00:25:06,700 --> 00:25:11,100
that come about because of that 
shared experience and equally 

454
00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:13,900
like you say, it can be that 
comfort of, do you know? 

455
00:25:13,900 --> 00:25:17,500
I can't get out of bed today, 
the depression is crippling, but

456
00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:19,200
you know what? 
I know there's a song that might

457
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,900
just shift my mood. 
Ooh, 10 notches to the point 

458
00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:25,000
where I could think about 
opening the curtains and 

459
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,100
actually, if I see some sunlight
and that music continues, I 

460
00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:31,300
might just be able to get out of
bed and that's not to trivialize

461
00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:34,700
the power of depression, but 
it's to say that it's not 

462
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,600
something that has to stop you. 
And it's and and there are 

463
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,700
things that can alleviate and 
immediately and it may not cure 

464
00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:45,700
your depression, but it might 
help you to manage it and live 

465
00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:48,000
better with it because a lot of 
these things that we live with 

466
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,300
today. 
We can't cure dementia being one

467
00:25:50,300 --> 00:25:53,000
of Yeah, we can't cure it, but 
we can live better with it. 

468
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,500
A lot of mental health 
conditions, you can't cure. 

469
00:25:56,500 --> 00:26:01,200
You know, we just don't have the
neuro psychological biological 

470
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:05,100
understanding of them and the 
drugs don't quite work for them 

471
00:26:05,100 --> 00:26:09,500
because actually, you know, some
mental health conditions aren't 

472
00:26:09,500 --> 00:26:15,400
just that they are deeply 
emotionally rooted in us so it's

473
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,600
not that music as I was saying 
earlier, as a Panacea, but it's 

474
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,200
a way of helping us to live 
better. 

475
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,200
Better to manage better to 
enhance and enrich quality of 

476
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:25,300
life. 
Yeah. 

477
00:26:25,300 --> 00:26:28,200
And I think that there is this 
moment as you say now, and I 

478
00:26:28,208 --> 00:26:31,400
felt really powerfully about 
this as we've got this moment to

479
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,800
reimagine how we think about our
health and well-being, how we 

480
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,000
care for others, how we connect 
with others, how we relate with 

481
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,400
others. 
And I think what's exciting is, 

482
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,800
how excited people are to that 
notion. 

483
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,900
And I've really felt that across
the music industry because I 

484
00:26:46,900 --> 00:26:50,300
think what it does is it makes 
what we do with music. 

485
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,500
Really human and really 
personal. 

486
00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:58,400
So I wanted to ask you on that 
about your experience of the 

487
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,700
music industry as a community 
because you've mentioned like 

488
00:27:00,700 --> 00:27:03,100
there's a feeling of lots of 
people coming together and 

489
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,900
different sectors of the music 
industry because I think 

490
00:27:05,900 --> 00:27:09,200
sometimes we talk about the 
music industry, like it's one 

491
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,400
thing and I've definitely found 
in my experience that actually. 

492
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,500
There's pockets and groups and 
committee communities within a 

493
00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:22,400
larger community So what's your 
experience being of working in 

494
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,100
the music industry as a 
fantastic question? 

495
00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:28,900
Because I think it's been very 
multifaceted, I felt very much 

496
00:27:28,900 --> 00:27:32,400
at the edge at times. 
So for example, when I was at 

497
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,500
music College, I didn't feel I 
was in the music industry, I 

498
00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:38,700
felt like I was an Elite 
Training School, not knowing 

499
00:27:38,700 --> 00:27:41,100
where my place would be 
eventually. 

500
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,400
Or could be, and likewise being 
in the heart of the music 

501
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,100
therapy Community. 
When I was working for the 

502
00:27:48,108 --> 00:27:51,200
association, it was like, well, 
how does the therapy world of 

503
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,900
Music? 
Relate to what people might 

504
00:27:53,900 --> 00:27:56,400
perceive as the glitzy and all 
the production and or the 

505
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,600
performance, and how do these 
all fit together and then, being

506
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,800
an amateur musician and playing 
for fun. 

507
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:07,600
Now, how does that relate to 
what I do day to day? 

508
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,400
And so, I think, I think it's a 
it's a shifting. 

509
00:28:12,100 --> 00:28:18,000
Dimensional industry. 
That has many tracks in it and 

510
00:28:18,500 --> 00:28:22,700
I'm from my perspective, what I 
found really exciting to observe

511
00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:25,400
and be part of over the past. 
Two to three years is seeing 

512
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,800
those tracks converge, much more
and I sort of come at that with 

513
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,900
a with a wider lens, which is 
the mission with the campaign. 

514
00:28:33,900 --> 00:28:35,600
The music for the winter 
campaign has always been about 

515
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:40,200
trying to bring together Health 
social care music, third sector 

516
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,600
government. 
So it's always been about I'm 

517
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,600
shift those big moving parts 
that often feel very immovable. 

518
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,500
And then inside all of those 
worlds, there are lots of many 

519
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,000
communities as you say, and some
of those many communities don't 

520
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,800
talk to each other. 
But actually, what I've been 

521
00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:00,000
seeing more recently in the 
music industry, broadly is a 

522
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:06,400
much greater willingness to talk
to each other and I think that 

523
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,900
is what the music industry has 
been able to embrace. 

524
00:29:08,900 --> 00:29:11,700
Is that it's really easy to be 
human with music. 

525
00:29:12,100 --> 00:29:14,800
And that's essentially what 
everybody whether it's rights. 

526
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,500
Before me songwriting, we're 
trying to be human. 

527
00:29:17,500 --> 00:29:20,900
We're trying to express 
something of what it means to of

528
00:29:20,900 --> 00:29:22,900
the human condition of what it 
means to be. 

529
00:29:23,300 --> 00:29:28,200
And I think the, the essence of 
this has galvanized and captured

530
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,700
people's imaginations and that's
not to sound all sort of. 

531
00:29:33,100 --> 00:29:33,800
Whoo. 
Whoo. 

532
00:29:34,300 --> 00:29:36,400
I think it. 
Sounds lovely and, and sounds 

533
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:37,900
odd. 
But actually, there's some hard 

534
00:29:37,900 --> 00:29:40,400
cold facts to that, which is 
what we go back to you, which is

535
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,000
the underlying science. 
Yeah. 

536
00:29:42,100 --> 00:29:45,100
The way in which we've seen 
reduction in staff turnover. 

537
00:29:45,100 --> 00:29:47,800
We know that there's an 
improvement and marked 

538
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,900
improvement in quality of care, 
you know, there are distinct 

539
00:29:50,900 --> 00:29:54,500
measurables that we can point to
that show that it's not just 

540
00:29:54,500 --> 00:29:56,600
this nice to have something we 
can show it. 

541
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,000
It's a an indicator of improved 
quality of life, all of those 

542
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,000
kinds of things. 
So as of women in the music 

543
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,000
industry and your experience, 
what do you find your biggest 

544
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,800
challenge or a challenge that 
you faced from that perspective,

545
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,100
really? 
Really good question. 

546
00:30:13,300 --> 00:30:16,700
I think it's about identity and 
profile. 

547
00:30:17,500 --> 00:30:21,400
And this has been a passion of 
mine celebrating the power of 

548
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,900
music and galvanizing and 
mobilizing people to its to its 

549
00:30:24,900 --> 00:30:29,100
Mission really for a long time. 
And I remember trying to raise 

550
00:30:29,100 --> 00:30:33,200
this pre-pandemic with 
significant bodies within the 

551
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,100
industry and the lightener. 
We don't really know who you 

552
00:30:37,100 --> 00:30:39,300
are. 
You just yet another little 

553
00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:41,200
Charity. 
One. 

554
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,500
Person on a In trying to make a 
difference. 

555
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,700
No, thanks very much. 
But no, this isn't this isn't 

556
00:30:48,700 --> 00:30:50,000
for us. 
This isn't for us. 

557
00:30:50,500 --> 00:30:54,100
And actually, the biggest 
challenge of being able to be 

558
00:30:54,108 --> 00:30:56,800
part of the industry is about 
being part of the network. 

559
00:30:57,500 --> 00:31:04,300
And what it takes is an ally and
an advocate and a champion to be

560
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,900
alongside you to help you open 
doors. 

561
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,500
It takes one person. 
It and some people have 10 

562
00:31:11,500 --> 00:31:14,900
people And others have more than
that, but it can just take one 

563
00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:21,800
person to open the door so that 
you can go and meet people and 

564
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:23,900
be connected. 
And we were saying what we about

565
00:31:23,900 --> 00:31:27,500
how we were at an event and 
that's how we got talking. 

566
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,300
And suddenly, we're here having 
this amazing conversation 

567
00:31:30,300 --> 00:31:34,800
together and will no doubt keep 
in conversation and I think 

568
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,000
there's a lot more that we can 
do and, and talk about together.

569
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:43,100
But That doesn't happen unless 
you've got somebody who opens 

570
00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:47,000
doors for you, but also 
recognizes that it's not all 

571
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,700
just about you wanting to take 
from others. 

572
00:31:49,700 --> 00:31:53,300
That you've got a contribution 
that you can see perhaps a gap 

573
00:31:53,300 --> 00:31:56,400
or a need and that you're 
wanting to meet that need with 

574
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,400
your skills and your expertise 
and it is expertise. 

575
00:32:00,500 --> 00:32:03,400
I think, you know, we're both 
sitting here with a with a 

576
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,400
wealth of knowledge skills and 
expertise and that's not being 

577
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,900
said in a big-headed. 
Lucas neither of us are like 

578
00:32:10,900 --> 00:32:14,300
that, but I think with, you 
know, with years of practice 

579
00:32:14,300 --> 00:32:16,600
behind us, we're allowed to say 
that. 

580
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,600
And it's okay to say that, and 
we ought to say that and say it 

581
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,800
really confidently. 
Funny how even as you're saying 

582
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:24,900
it, you're sort of caveat eating
that your thing. 

583
00:32:25,500 --> 00:32:29,800
And it's like, no, no, we are 
experts, 100%, you know, but 

584
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,700
it's not easy to say that as a 
woman because you're worried in 

585
00:32:33,700 --> 00:32:35,800
general about how that comes 
across, you don't want to see 

586
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,800
him boastful or hmm, Brash or 
obnoxious Cautious or anything 

587
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,400
like that. 
And I think I completely relate 

588
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:47,600
to that, that like identifying 
yourself as an expert and for 

589
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,800
years. 
People like, I struggled with 

590
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,000
people like what is it that you 
do? 

591
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,300
And I don't know how to 
verbalize what it is that I do 

592
00:32:54,300 --> 00:32:57,000
in a way. 
That's like I suppose I'm a 

593
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,100
copyright expert and I allowed 
to say experts who sometimes I'd

594
00:33:00,100 --> 00:33:06,000
say specialist as a yes yeah 
absolutely. 

595
00:33:06,300 --> 00:33:10,600
And I think one of the ways that
I really Try to challenge myself

596
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,300
on this and I think it's come 
out of music therapy when I've 

597
00:33:14,300 --> 00:33:16,400
been supporting other music 
therapist to think about their 

598
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,500
careers. 
And when they've come to me and 

599
00:33:18,500 --> 00:33:20,900
said look I can't get through 
the door of this school, all 

600
00:33:20,900 --> 00:33:24,500
this care home. 
How do I attack articulate? 

601
00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:29,000
My value to neat and I I've said
go and understand what the lead 

602
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,300
is. 
So if it's a school go and read 

603
00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:35,400
their school report, find out, 
whether weaknesses are and look 

604
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,500
at what you can do, what is it 
that your expertise, your Skills

605
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,800
can help with that need, how can
you support that need? 

606
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,200
How can I help you? 
Not? 

607
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,300
What can you give me? 
Because the minute you come at 

608
00:33:49,300 --> 00:33:51,400
it like that. 
You're only going to meet closed

609
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,000
doors. 
What can I bring to the table 

610
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,800
here? 
How can I help? 

611
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,900
What difference might I be able 
to make here? 

612
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,000
And it, you know, the same in a 
care home. 

613
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,900
How can I help? 
Why have we got a dysfunctional 

614
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,100
group of Staff. 
What's going on here? 

615
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,699
What is the need? 
All the needs and How do I 

616
00:34:09,699 --> 00:34:12,900
support those? 
Then I can start to articulate 

617
00:34:12,900 --> 00:34:16,000
my value because I can say, 
We'll look, I can help reduce 

618
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,800
staff turnover. 
I can improve staff morale. 

619
00:34:19,100 --> 00:34:22,800
I can quantify that, and I can 
tell you that my hourly rate is 

620
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,800
absolutely on the money and that
it's not expensive and that 

621
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,100
you'll see a return on 
investment for that. 

622
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:32,400
Yeah. 
And I think that for me has been

623
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,400
one of the ways in which I've 
tried to overcome that. 

624
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,100
Oh, but there are lots of 
Charities out there. 

625
00:34:38,100 --> 00:34:40,199
There are lots of Campaigns out 
there. 

626
00:34:40,900 --> 00:34:42,600
You know, why should we listen 
to yours? 

627
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,400
Well, this is. 
This is about a really big need,

628
00:34:45,900 --> 00:34:48,600
and we're trying to meet that 
really big need, but to do it. 

629
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,500
We all need to do it together, 
and I'm here to try and bring 

630
00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:55,300
people together to connect, to 
make those relationships, come 

631
00:34:55,300 --> 00:34:59,400
to live, and then Foster 
commitments from people so that 

632
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,700
we can make change happen. 
So for me, it's been very much 

633
00:35:02,700 --> 00:35:05,800
about that mindset of what is 
the need? 

634
00:35:06,100 --> 00:35:09,000
What can I do to help meet that?
Need what value can I bring? 

635
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,600
And I think once you can start 
to begin to articulate their or 

636
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,900
even just to think about that 
because it's quite daunting. 

637
00:35:15,900 --> 00:35:20,800
Yeah, you can start to have some
confidence and some belief in 

638
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:25,400
your self-worth and a little 
more kind of space at the table 

639
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:26,300
of. 
Okay. 

640
00:35:26,300 --> 00:35:28,600
I don't just have to sit here. 
So Meek and Mild. 

641
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,200
I do know a little bit about 
what I say. 

642
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,100
I think. 
I know a little bit about. 

643
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,200
Yeah, that really resonates with
me. 

644
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,800
I think I have been lucky and 
some ways that I've got kind of 

645
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,200
this. 
Inherent need to feel useful. 

646
00:35:41,500 --> 00:35:42,700
Hmm. 
Which is in some ways. 

647
00:35:42,700 --> 00:35:47,000
It's very good and I think I owe
a lot of My Success to that what

648
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,800
you've just said, I've done all 
my life and at the same time 

649
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,700
there is that can tip over into 
something negative and because 

650
00:35:54,700 --> 00:35:57,500
then, if I'm not being useful, I
don't, you know, I connect my 

651
00:35:57,500 --> 00:36:00,200
self-worth with being useful. 
Yeah, so there's positives and 

652
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:04,500
negatives to that and I also 
think that it can really help if

653
00:36:04,500 --> 00:36:07,700
you can reflect on where you can
be useful, it definitely opened 

654
00:36:07,700 --> 00:36:13,000
doors and it can make You 
recognize your worthiness and 

655
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,600
expertise in the reason why you 
are sat at that table. 

656
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,400
But how do you manage that in 
terms of boundaries and making 

657
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:26,600
sure that you are not being so 
useful and helpful all the time 

658
00:36:26,700 --> 00:36:29,600
like your time as a gift that 
you just give out to everybody 

659
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:35,000
freely and I suppose tie in that
self-worth and that recognizing 

660
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,600
what you bring to the table and 
making sure that you are fairly 

661
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:43,300
paid and Rated and recognized 
and credited for your expertise.

662
00:36:45,900 --> 00:36:47,900
I'm asking you like you know the
answer. 

663
00:36:48,500 --> 00:36:51,800
Well I'm I don't think I do know
the answer but I'd say I'm 

664
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,400
navigating it and I think the 
last 18 months of have been a 

665
00:36:55,408 --> 00:36:59,400
really interesting time of that 
in terms of being asked to do 

666
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:05,500
stuff and I think like anybody 
in any industry, you do the odd 

667
00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:08,500
freebie. 
And I have to now start 

668
00:37:08,500 --> 00:37:11,600
practicing what I preached when 
I was dishing out information to

669
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,200
music therapist when I worked 
for the British Association of 

670
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,100
music therapy, I would be 
horrified when a music therapist

671
00:37:17,100 --> 00:37:19,300
would say, oh well, I've just 
offered them ten sessions for 

672
00:37:19,300 --> 00:37:20,500
free. 
You've done what? 

673
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,500
Yeah. 
Why have you given them? 

674
00:37:22,700 --> 00:37:25,400
Not only 10 clinical hours, but 
the hours that you love put 

675
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,700
around that to prepare the room,
right notes, etc, etc. 

676
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:30,100
I'm seeing you. 
Why are they done that? 

677
00:37:30,100 --> 00:37:31,300
Why they don't know why they 
done that. 

678
00:37:31,300 --> 00:37:32,800
What what's whereof? 
They got to. 

679
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,900
What's the position that they've
got to where they think they 

680
00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:36,400
should give away a terms worth 
of work? 

681
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:41,100
The free like, hang on a minute.
Why are we in this mindset? 

682
00:37:41,300 --> 00:37:44,600
And so whenever I feel myself 
getting, oh yeah, I'll go and do

683
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,400
that. 
And oh, yeah, I'll give you half

684
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,500
a day or a day or yeah. 
That 30-minute conversations 

685
00:37:50,500 --> 00:37:54,100
become a three-hour conversation
like hang on a minute. 

686
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,800
What, why am I doing that? 
Am I being useful? 

687
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,200
What's getting fed at this point
in me? 

688
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,500
Am I where what's feeling 
undernourished? 

689
00:38:02,500 --> 00:38:06,300
Am I thinking that? 
I'm doing this because there'll 

690
00:38:06,300 --> 00:38:11,300
be A trade-off later on which is
which might well be the case, or

691
00:38:11,300 --> 00:38:14,600
is it because I'm not feeling 
that. 

692
00:38:14,900 --> 00:38:18,300
My paid employment is giving me 
the opportunity to do that in 

693
00:38:18,300 --> 00:38:20,900
which case I need to look at 
whether the needs to be a change

694
00:38:20,900 --> 00:38:23,900
in what I'm doing or is there 
something else at play? 

695
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,500
Am I in the right role? 
Do I need to think about my role

696
00:38:27,500 --> 00:38:29,600
you know? 
So I think when you don't 

697
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,600
question what's going on, you're
in difficult territory because 

698
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,200
you're not really very 
self-aware. 

699
00:38:35,900 --> 00:38:37,800
And I think if Asking questions 
about it. 

700
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,300
You stand a better chance to be 
able to go hold on a minute. 

701
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,500
I've this month I've given away 
this many hours for free. 

702
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,700
What's gone on there? 
Why have I done that? 

703
00:38:46,900 --> 00:38:51,700
What have I if I analyze that 
what that transaction of time 

704
00:38:51,700 --> 00:38:54,000
and energy? 
What have I got out of that. 

705
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,000
Hang on a minute. 
We'll what I've got out of it is

706
00:38:56,500 --> 00:38:59,600
okay not a lot this month but 
the next month might be really 

707
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,800
different but also I might have 
been paid for a certain 

708
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,600
percentage of that. 
And it I think the comes a 

709
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,000
Tipping Point where you say I am
I'm my own person. 

710
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,900
I might not employment, might 
not be the best way for me. 

711
00:39:10,900 --> 00:39:15,800
And actually, I can, I'm in such
position that I feel like I can 

712
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,900
get paid for my time under my 
own umbrella because I've got 

713
00:39:19,900 --> 00:39:23,700
that range of skills and 
expertise or actually I need to 

714
00:39:23,700 --> 00:39:26,400
look at my current job 
description and reassess that 

715
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,400
and think about is, am I 
actually doing my job 

716
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,700
description or am? 
I acting outside of that and do 

717
00:39:31,700 --> 00:39:33,100
we need to have a conversation 
about that. 

718
00:39:33,100 --> 00:39:36,500
So I think it's about having 
that level of interaction. 

719
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,600
Wellness. 
And but also, starting to shape.

720
00:39:39,900 --> 00:39:43,600
What is it that you want out of 
your job and is your job, just a

721
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,000
job? 
Or is it a career in a vocation 

722
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,900
and a way of being? 
Because then, you can start to 

723
00:39:48,900 --> 00:39:51,800
think very practically and 
realistically about those 

724
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:53,400
boundaries and how you manage 
them. 

725
00:39:53,700 --> 00:39:57,100
I'm just looking at my notes 
because I wrote down the 

726
00:39:57,100 --> 00:40:00,200
percentage of can't find it. 
Now of people in the music 

727
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,600
industry who consider themselves
Freelancers and it's a majority.

728
00:40:03,900 --> 00:40:06,400
So I think what you're saying is
really important. 

729
00:40:06,500 --> 00:40:08,900
Particularly in the music 
industry because there are so 

730
00:40:08,900 --> 00:40:12,800
many Freelancers. 
And especially for women who 

731
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,300
maybe don't always have the 
confidence to stand up and sit, 

732
00:40:16,300 --> 00:40:17,900
because I think what you're 
saying is really interesting 

733
00:40:17,900 --> 00:40:20,800
that it's about reflecting and 
asking those questions of 

734
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,400
yourself. 
Like, if I'm giving away free 

735
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,200
time, how often am I doing that?
And why am I doing it? 

736
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,800
And is it bringing me rewards? 
Sometimes they can be indirect 

737
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,000
or direct and we all do it. 
It's not a case of never doing 

738
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,300
anything, it's just being 
conscious and aware. 

739
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:40,300
And when you ask the question, 
why if the true answer is 

740
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,200
because I don't feel brave 
enough to say actually it costs 

741
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:49,600
this much for me to do that in 
this time or maybe you've had an

742
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,000
experience where you've asked. 
So you said yeah I'll do that it

743
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,400
cost this much and they said oh 
we know no actually it's fine. 

744
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,000
Actually we've got full schedule
we don't need you. 

745
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,700
Yeah exactly. 
And so then you're like oh no I 

746
00:41:01,700 --> 00:41:03,600
won't. 
I'll do you know what I mean? 

747
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,500
So then that can kind of maybe 
knock your confidence a little A

748
00:41:06,508 --> 00:41:09,400
bit about asking and I think it 
kind of comes back to what we 

749
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,900
were saying earlier about 
knowing your expertise, knowing 

750
00:41:13,900 --> 00:41:18,600
your cell, understanding the 
value that you bring and having 

751
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,300
the kind of confidence and 
boundaries to say. 

752
00:41:21,500 --> 00:41:27,500
This is how much it costs and to
be in a position. 

753
00:41:27,500 --> 00:41:30,900
I think this is something I'm 
also always working on and it 

754
00:41:30,900 --> 00:41:33,200
kind of it's not a linear 
process. 

755
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,500
I didn't just wake up one day 
and start charging people for my

756
00:41:35,500 --> 00:41:37,600
time. 
Shops open. 

757
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:42,300
Yeah, exactly. 
But I definitely I think in some

758
00:41:42,300 --> 00:41:45,500
ways I've been at the advantage 
of training as a lawyer and when

759
00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:48,300
you work in a law firm, you 
measure your time in seven 

760
00:41:48,300 --> 00:41:51,700
minute periods and you charge 
for every seven minutes and it's

761
00:41:51,700 --> 00:41:56,400
brutal. 
So that made me very aware of 

762
00:41:56,700 --> 00:42:00,300
how I'm using my time and how 
much my time is worth. 

763
00:42:00,700 --> 00:42:03,000
And although I do something 
completely different really 

764
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,400
day-to-day now, but I do, I do 
offer, legal advice. 

765
00:42:06,500 --> 00:42:09,700
Vice and I'm, I am a consultant.
I work for help musicians as a 

766
00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:13,000
business advisor, things like 
that and that is me giving my 

767
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,500
advice and I'm at a point now 
where I don't actually need to 

768
00:42:15,500 --> 00:42:18,500
prepare for most of those things
because it's all in my in my 

769
00:42:18,500 --> 00:42:20,900
brain, and I talk about it all 
the time. 

770
00:42:20,900 --> 00:42:25,500
So it's like off the tongue but 
I spent years training, I've 

771
00:42:25,500 --> 00:42:29,000
been doing this for a decade 
like it's not that you're just 

772
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,600
being paid for your time. 
You're being paid for all of 

773
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,000
your time up to that point. 
That puts you in a position to 

774
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:35,800
be able to answer that question 
easily. 

775
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:37,700
Hmm. 
If someone has one copyright 

776
00:42:37,700 --> 00:42:41,400
question for me, you're not 
really charging them for that 

777
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:43,500
one copyright question. 
The time it takes me to answer 

778
00:42:43,500 --> 00:42:45,900
five minutes. 
It's that I have the expertise 

779
00:42:45,900 --> 00:42:48,800
to give you a comprehensive 
answer to that very difficult 

780
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,400
question. 
You always complex or whatever 

781
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,100
and and therefore it's that 
takes my time and it's valuable 

782
00:42:55,100 --> 00:42:59,400
but I do think that something 
that especially as women I know 

783
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,200
from speaking to other women in 
the music industry and in fact 

784
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,400
all the industry is not working.
It's the same thing in Academia 

785
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:11,000
in In law that we as women can 
all be better. 

786
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,000
I think because there's two 
things, isn't there. 

787
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,100
There's the from our side 
reframing thinking about our 

788
00:43:17,100 --> 00:43:20,000
worth and our expertise and that
that has value, and we should 

789
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,700
charge for it. 
And that's something as women we

790
00:43:22,700 --> 00:43:25,900
can do better but also the 
industry needs to meet us 

791
00:43:25,900 --> 00:43:28,200
halfway and not expect women to 
work for free. 

792
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,700
Oh absolutely. 
And I was thinking as you were 

793
00:43:30,708 --> 00:43:33,700
talking there about that 
accumulated, knowledge and skill

794
00:43:33,700 --> 00:43:36,400
set, you know, it's not as you 
say, it's not something you wake

795
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:37,000
up. 
Good morning. 

796
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,400
God, I know so much about this. 
I think about the amount of 

797
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,200
hours, I spoke to Employers in 
terms of music, therapy and 

798
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,000
music therapists, and 
understanding the nuances of 

799
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,300
that, and these painstaking 
conversations. 

800
00:43:49,300 --> 00:43:51,400
Worked tell me what they said 
and why did they say that? 

801
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,600
And how will you think about 
what does your practice look 

802
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:55,100
like? 
And what does that look like in 

803
00:43:55,100 --> 00:43:56,800
this context? 
And, you know, and that, you 

804
00:43:56,808 --> 00:44:00,200
know, you absorb all of that and
you go away and the thinking 

805
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:01,400
doesn't just happen in the 
moment. 

806
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,700
That's the other thing, you 
know, with this kind of work 

807
00:44:04,900 --> 00:44:07,800
it's very hard to switch off. 
Off and I would love an off 

808
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:09,000
switch. 
If someone can give me an off 

809
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,500
switch for a present, I would 
love it because it doesn't 

810
00:44:12,500 --> 00:44:15,600
happen very often. 
You know, it's like okay so you 

811
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,200
know it's 8:00. 
Why am I still thinking about 

812
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,000
that question? 
They asked me and and I know I'm

813
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,600
not the only person does that so
many people do it but when 

814
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,400
you're of the kind of people 
that I think we are where, you 

815
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,100
know, you are stimulated by 
something and you're constantly 

816
00:44:31,100 --> 00:44:36,100
trying to find the answer and 
think about the yyyy it, you 

817
00:44:36,100 --> 00:44:39,900
know? 
No, you're not, you know, you 

818
00:44:39,900 --> 00:44:43,300
don't just think in your paid 
hours, you know, it's in an oven

819
00:44:43,300 --> 00:44:48,600
around you all the time. 
And so, you know, when you then 

820
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:54,400
come to put a price to that to 
that fee That is built into it 

821
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,300
some way because it's not just 
oh, well, I'll turn up and I'll 

822
00:44:57,300 --> 00:44:59,800
be there between nine and one 
will know because you'll have 

823
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,100
probably done two hours prep. 
You'll do another hours debrief 

824
00:45:03,300 --> 00:45:06,100
in your mind at some point. 
So, actually you're looking at a

825
00:45:06,100 --> 00:45:09,500
full day's worth of work, merely
not just a four-hour session. 

826
00:45:09,500 --> 00:45:15,000
And and I think it's about that 
honesty and, you know, 99% of 

827
00:45:15,008 --> 00:45:17,600
people aren't there to rip 
people off that they're just 

828
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,100
saying look, I've I do have 
these skills. 

829
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,200
I'd like to be fairly are 
enumerated. 

830
00:45:22,300 --> 00:45:25,900
David for that and I think 
that's a reasonable request but 

831
00:45:25,900 --> 00:45:29,800
that can still feel like, quite 
a bold bold, ask, and I think 

832
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:34,900
that's where the collaboration. 
And the Collegiate feeling is 

833
00:45:34,900 --> 00:45:37,800
really important. 
Where, you know, you can endorse

834
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,300
each other's work, you can 
support each other's work as 

835
00:45:40,300 --> 00:45:43,600
they do, you know, actually, 
you're going to get really great

836
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:47,100
value by working with her. 
You know, you might need X 

837
00:45:47,100 --> 00:45:49,900
number of sessions, and should 
be able to help you in these 

838
00:45:49,900 --> 00:45:53,000
kinds of ways. 
But that kind of Endorsement of 

839
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:57,100
each other. 
I think helps to strengthen the 

840
00:45:57,100 --> 00:46:02,600
presentation of what the female 
element can bring to the to the 

841
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,100
music industry, you know? 
So that we're supporting one 

842
00:46:06,100 --> 00:46:09,100
another in that very 
collaborative. 

843
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,700
Advocate like way. 
We all need people alongside us 

844
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,700
and I think if we can't, if 
women can't do that for 

845
00:46:19,700 --> 00:46:22,800
themselves and for each other, 
then that's the Sorry State of 

846
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,400
Affairs. 
So I would always, you know, 

847
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,600
want to be saying, well actually
yeah if you work with Haley, 

848
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,000
you're going to, you know, no 
doubt, safe hands, you know? 

849
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,500
Don't don't even question that, 
you know, really, really good 

850
00:46:35,500 --> 00:46:38,600
hands and and likewise I would, 
you know, you have to prove your

851
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,100
worth but you know, you'd want 
to know that there are champions

852
00:46:41,100 --> 00:46:44,000
out there for you. 
And I think I think that's one 

853
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:48,100
thing we can do to overcome some
of those kinds of challenges is 

854
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:49,900
is Beach. 
Others Advocates really? 

855
00:46:50,100 --> 00:46:52,100
Yeah, well that is exactly what 
I was going to ask you. 

856
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,100
Okay, so we've acknowledged that
this is something that we can 

857
00:46:55,100 --> 00:46:56,900
all work on and how do we do 
that? 

858
00:46:56,900 --> 00:47:00,200
And I think Community is so 
important also for moving. 

859
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,800
The needle on Norms, one thing I
found is that we have these 

860
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,100
conversations and it's really 
important to have these 

861
00:47:06,100 --> 00:47:08,400
conversations in the community 
of people that you're working 

862
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,800
with and to talk about money. 
Hmm. 

863
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,000
How much did you get? 
Paid for that session because I 

864
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,600
think I'm charging too much or 
too little. 

865
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:18,600
I don't know. 
How do you know what the going 

866
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,100
rate is? 
And it's the same for a session 

867
00:47:20,100 --> 00:47:23,000
musician or a vocalist who comes
in Does a day's work. 

868
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,800
Like you said, she can do it in 
one take, but that's because 

869
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,000
she's practiced every day for 10
years, not because it took her 

870
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:33,000
10 minutes in the movement, and 
there's a lot of variables 

871
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,400
around, what, how you value 
something? 

872
00:47:35,500 --> 00:47:38,800
Yep, is the physical time it 
takes, but also the skill, the 

873
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,000
person, the project, the budget,
there's lots of things, but I 

874
00:47:42,008 --> 00:47:46,300
think it's really important as 
women to talk and to light said 

875
00:47:46,300 --> 00:47:48,500
advocate for each other thing, 
that's really important. 

876
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,900
And also to share to knowledge 
exchange and the absolutely That

877
00:47:53,300 --> 00:47:57,500
for me, I know it's scary and I 
know asking for more asking for 

878
00:47:57,500 --> 00:48:00,300
money is can be uncomfortable. 
But one thing that really 

879
00:48:00,300 --> 00:48:04,700
motivates me, I read once about 
the number of times to do with 

880
00:48:04,700 --> 00:48:08,400
the pay Gap that when a 
typically, when a man is offered

881
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,700
a job, he also always negotiates
the pay and women typically 

882
00:48:11,700 --> 00:48:14,900
never do. 
And so now guarantee if I get a 

883
00:48:14,900 --> 00:48:17,300
job and negotiate the pay, and 
it's so uncomfortable, and I 

884
00:48:17,300 --> 00:48:21,100
hate it, I don't do it for me. 
I do it for all the other women.

885
00:48:21,500 --> 00:48:22,600
I'm not trying to be a hero. 
Hero. 

886
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,700
I'm trying to make myself feel 
better about making a change. 

887
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,100
That's like I'm not doing it 
just from obviously I benefit 

888
00:48:30,100 --> 00:48:33,100
because I get paid more. 
Yeah, I get paid for my time but

889
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,300
also to think about it, if you 
are struggling with that 

890
00:48:36,300 --> 00:48:40,300
narrative to think about it, on 
a bigger scale of Mike, if this 

891
00:48:40,300 --> 00:48:44,300
is the going rate and I push 
that rate for women doing this 

892
00:48:44,300 --> 00:48:47,300
job and I tell other women, this
is how much I'm getting paid for

893
00:48:47,300 --> 00:48:49,900
this. 
I'm helping my community as well

894
00:48:49,900 --> 00:48:51,400
as myself. 
Absolutely. 

895
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:55,500
And I And he found that in music
therapy within the freelance 

896
00:48:55,900 --> 00:48:59,900
world of music therapy where you
know like in the in the wider 

897
00:48:59,900 --> 00:49:01,500
music industry. 
Lots of people have portfolio 

898
00:49:01,500 --> 00:49:05,800
careers and the music therapist 
would say, oh no, you know, I 

899
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,400
don't think I can charge 
possibly more than 35 pounds. 

900
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,800
Now, we'll hang on it. 
Whoa, whoa, hang on. 

901
00:49:10,900 --> 00:49:12,800
What's the context you're 
working in? 

902
00:49:13,500 --> 00:49:17,300
Are you working for? 
Are you low coming for the NHS? 

903
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,000
Are you, is it? 
Private practice. 

904
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,900
Is it a family? 
What's, you know, where are 

905
00:49:21,900 --> 00:49:23,700
they? 
They are like, what is the 

906
00:49:23,700 --> 00:49:25,300
picture here? 
That you're looking at 

907
00:49:25,300 --> 00:49:29,500
financially, but that's one way 
of thinking about it. 

908
00:49:29,500 --> 00:49:31,500
But what does it cost you to do 
this? 

909
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:36,000
And the amount of practitioners 
who hadn't thought about what 

910
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,500
their expenses were to, just be 
in the room. 

911
00:49:39,300 --> 00:49:43,100
And I thought, gosh, this is 
where the Crossovers must 

912
00:49:43,100 --> 00:49:45,200
happen. 
More, we must educate more. 

913
00:49:45,500 --> 00:49:48,100
We must support. 
And I certainly found when I did

914
00:49:48,100 --> 00:49:50,900
my master's. 
As I was saying to you, that we 

915
00:49:50,900 --> 00:49:54,600
were told were it's not our job 
to I knew how to be Freelancers 

916
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:56,400
and it's not about being a 
freelancer. 

917
00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:00,100
It's about the sustainability 
the profession, if we're running

918
00:50:00,100 --> 00:50:03,200
rate down into the ground, then 
you're going to end up with a 

919
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,800
profession that can't afford to 
work and then we won't have any 

920
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:09,000
music therapists. 
Meanwhile speech and language 

921
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,900
therapists have no qualms about 
asking for a 3 figure, some to 

922
00:50:12,900 --> 00:50:15,900
do an assessment was a music 
therapist, might say what at no 

923
00:50:17,100 --> 00:50:21,000
charge, you know, 120 quid for 
an assessment with a report, you

924
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:22,100
know. 
And that's proper clinical. 

925
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:25,300
Nicole time, but speech and 
language therapist, don't even 

926
00:50:25,300 --> 00:50:28,500
blink or a physiotherapist or an
occupational therapist because 

927
00:50:29,300 --> 00:50:31,300
they are. 
So positioned within society 

928
00:50:31,300 --> 00:50:33,700
that we don't question the value
that they bring and that's 

929
00:50:33,700 --> 00:50:37,400
really, it comes back to what is
value and what is it that we 

930
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,500
bring? 
And so I think there is a piece 

931
00:50:40,500 --> 00:50:43,000
of work to be done, whether it's
performers, whether it's 

932
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,400
producers music therapist, 
whoever it might be of helping 

933
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:51,100
people articulate their worth, 
and I think that starts right 

934
00:50:51,100 --> 00:50:53,200
now, really, I think we Have to 
support each other. 

935
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,100
In doing that and say, you know,
AI. 

936
00:50:56,100 --> 00:51:00,300
I feel really uncomfortable and 
talking about the value and what

937
00:51:00,300 --> 00:51:06,400
my value is and how I grow my 
value and and be making sure 

938
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:07,800
that we're doing that for each 
other. 

939
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,000
So I think I think there's I 
think there's a real piece of 

940
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,000
work that we can all 
collectively be involved in and 

941
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:18,100
supporting that and I think as 
you were just saying there in 

942
00:51:18,100 --> 00:51:22,000
terms of yes of course you stand
benefit but there is a bigger 

943
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,500
Sure thing. 
And I, and I would really Echo 

944
00:51:24,500 --> 00:51:26,400
that in the way that I would 
talk with music therapist, 

945
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,200
through some music therapist, 
who were coming to the career, 

946
00:51:29,500 --> 00:51:32,500
maybe second or third career in 
and they were saying, well, the 

947
00:51:32,500 --> 00:51:34,100
kite. 
No, I don't, I don't really need

948
00:51:34,100 --> 00:51:37,700
to charge to do this work and I 
said, well, that's a wonderful 

949
00:51:37,700 --> 00:51:42,500
gift that you have but actually 
by not charging or charging and 

950
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:46,500
a tiny nominal fee you are 
underwriting the the whole 

951
00:51:46,500 --> 00:51:50,000
profession and so your drive a 
leaving it yeah it is valuing it

952
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:54,500
completely which means that the 
The young, you know, 28 year old

953
00:51:54,500 --> 00:51:58,300
who's coming through, who for 
them, this is their first career

954
00:51:58,500 --> 00:52:02,000
and they need to charge for all 
of their overheads and they need

955
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,300
to charge so that they can 
invest in their practice and 

956
00:52:04,300 --> 00:52:06,600
develop their business. 
They don't stand a chance of 

957
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,400
being able to charge a certain 
amount per hour because you've 

958
00:52:09,700 --> 00:52:12,400
set a precedent, which is 
actually music therapy, doesn't 

959
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:17,600
need a fee and, you know, then 
take that fee and do something 

960
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:20,300
else with it, you know, charge 
for it. 

961
00:52:20,300 --> 00:52:23,300
But then invest, it sounds where
put it Donate it to charity, do 

962
00:52:23,300 --> 00:52:25,500
whatever you want with it. 
Yeah, but do yourself a 

963
00:52:25,500 --> 00:52:28,000
volunteer, volunteer. 
You're right. 

964
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:29,800
It's about that. 
Exactly. 

965
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:34,400
It's like you, the value is not 
only a new, there's your values,

966
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,700
your inherent your value, and 
your skills and expertise. 

967
00:52:36,700 --> 00:52:39,300
And then there's the value in 
the thing that you do. 

968
00:52:39,300 --> 00:52:41,700
Whether that's playing an 
instrument, being a music 

969
00:52:41,700 --> 00:52:44,600
therapist, being a researcher 
alloy or whatever. 

970
00:52:44,900 --> 00:52:47,600
In anything that you do in the 
music industry, you're 

971
00:52:47,700 --> 00:52:49,800
representing. 
It goes kind of back to what we 

972
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:51,500
were saying earlier about the 
planets in the universe. 

973
00:52:51,500 --> 00:52:55,100
Like you're The old world. 
And we are trying to raise the 

974
00:52:55,100 --> 00:52:59,400
value especially in music about 
the power of music and life 

975
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,100
changing, what you're doing as a
music therapist like what's the 

976
00:53:02,100 --> 00:53:04,900
value of the hat? 
Like if anything it should be 

977
00:53:04,900 --> 00:53:09,600
shooting up not being like you 
said underwritten or a devalued 

978
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:13,800
where people feel either that 
they're in a position that they 

979
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,000
don't need to charge that much 
or they don't feel that they 

980
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:22,500
can, maybe it's a confidence 
thing, or it could be Not even 

981
00:53:22,500 --> 00:53:24,200
on that person. 
It could be like we said the 

982
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,100
expectation of the person 
hiring. 

983
00:53:27,300 --> 00:53:28,900
Yeah, exactly. 
It's an edge. 

984
00:53:29,100 --> 00:53:32,400
I really believe it's an 
education piece because it comes

985
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:35,700
back to the sort of central 
tenant of the power. 

986
00:53:35,700 --> 00:53:37,600
Me that report is the value of 
Music. 

987
00:53:37,700 --> 00:53:39,900
How do we talk about the value 
of music? 

988
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,400
So that we don't have musicians 
and music therapist, going into 

989
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:48,300
Care Homes and the Cairo manager
says I haven't got any budget 

990
00:53:48,300 --> 00:53:51,600
for that but can you just come 
in four days a month for 

991
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:53,900
nothing? 
And what you magic? 

992
00:53:54,100 --> 00:53:56,700
Well no. 
Yeah, I might I might come in 

993
00:53:56,700 --> 00:53:59,700
and do a taster session for you.
I'm still going to charge you 

994
00:53:59,708 --> 00:54:01,500
expenses for that. 
It's not going to be completely 

995
00:54:01,500 --> 00:54:04,200
free, but I can give you a 
flavor of what I offer. 

996
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:06,900
And then we can have a 
negotiated discussion if you 

997
00:54:06,900 --> 00:54:09,100
like about that. 
And I've always talked about a 

998
00:54:09,100 --> 00:54:13,100
sliding scale, you know, again, 
it's what, what is your need to 

999
00:54:13,100 --> 00:54:16,800
Value, all of those kind of 
ratios and if you're not very 

1000
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:20,300
comfortable, then having that in
your back pocket, which is well,

1001
00:54:20,300 --> 00:54:23,300
actually I feel as though I'm 
Owing to an organization or a 

1002
00:54:23,300 --> 00:54:25,700
company that could afford this 
then. 

1003
00:54:25,900 --> 00:54:28,600
Actually, I will charge that. 
But actually, if I'm working 

1004
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:32,400
with a family that is really 
struggling financially, 

1005
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:34,800
emotionally socially the whole 
round. 

1006
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:38,700
Well, I probably might not 
charge them my full hourly rate,

1007
00:54:38,700 --> 00:54:41,300
but I'll be able to give them 
some kind of discount. 

1008
00:54:41,300 --> 00:54:43,900
I mean, that's very standard 
practice across the therapeutic 

1009
00:54:43,900 --> 00:54:45,400
board. 
Anyway, but you know, it's 

1010
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:49,000
having that is having that 
ability to play with your range 

1011
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:54,400
and I think that you get into 
difficult Is when you can't 

1012
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:57,700
either expand or narrow, you 
know, if you're just stuck 

1013
00:54:57,700 --> 00:55:00,900
because of whatever it might be,
it might be fear of saying, well

1014
00:55:00,900 --> 00:55:04,500
actually I'm probably worth X 
percentage more or do you know, 

1015
00:55:04,500 --> 00:55:07,600
I could probably afford to 
charge less here, but I know 

1016
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:11,400
that quite rightly I can charge 
more over there, so, you know, 

1017
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,900
I'm not going to be done out of 
anything and I'm not doing any 

1018
00:55:13,900 --> 00:55:16,300
profession down, but I'm being 
fair. 

1019
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:18,700
Yeah. 
And I think it's the same for me

1020
00:55:18,700 --> 00:55:20,300
in my experience. 
It's the same thing. 

1021
00:55:20,300 --> 00:55:24,800
If I'm giving advice to two solo
artist up and coming and not 

1022
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:27,200
actually gotten any income 
whatsoever because I don't even 

1023
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:29,100
know what a collecting Society 
is. 

1024
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,900
Obviously, I charge a different 
rate than if I'm doing a record 

1025
00:55:32,900 --> 00:55:35,800
deal for a major label and I 
think that's just about being 

1026
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:37,600
reasonable. 
But, and Savvy and comes back to

1027
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,100
what you said before about 
asking yourself, these questions

1028
00:55:40,100 --> 00:55:43,100
of like how much my charging 
what is this worth? 

1029
00:55:43,100 --> 00:55:45,500
And the context of the work that
you're doing? 

1030
00:55:45,500 --> 00:55:47,900
Who am I working with? 
What is their context? 

1031
00:55:47,900 --> 00:55:50,700
And what's not? 
But not to drive you, you've got

1032
00:55:50,700 --> 00:55:53,500
to keep yourself afloat. 
So if you have, for instance, 

1033
00:55:53,900 --> 00:55:59,000
doing a lot of work for low 
income families that then you 

1034
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,300
are not able to keep up your own
profession, then you're not 

1035
00:56:01,300 --> 00:56:04,300
helping anyone, it's that whole 
thing of put your mask on first 

1036
00:56:04,300 --> 00:56:06,600
before you put on the other 
person's mask. 

1037
00:56:06,700 --> 00:56:09,300
And I've honestly spoken to 
women who told me that for 

1038
00:56:09,300 --> 00:56:14,100
years, that that triggered her. 
She's like that annoyed me. 

1039
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:17,900
Of course, you put the mask on 
the child first and I was like, 

1040
00:56:18,100 --> 00:56:21,400
just, you understand that? 
The reason is because otherwise 

1041
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:23,600
if you pass, Out, you can't help
anyone. 

1042
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:28,400
Hmm, and she's like, oh yeah and
I just think we have to keep 

1043
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,400
that in mind and it goes back to
what was saying earlier about 

1044
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:33,200
boundaries and usefulness. 
Is that like you are only 

1045
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:35,600
useful? 
If, as long as you have energy, 

1046
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:39,400
if you've depleted yourself to 
help everybody else and you're 

1047
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:41,100
not looking after yourself and 
you're not taking care of 

1048
00:56:41,100 --> 00:56:42,500
yourself. 
You can't help anyone if you're 

1049
00:56:42,500 --> 00:56:44,200
in bed. 
No, no. 

1050
00:56:44,500 --> 00:56:47,700
And I think holding back a 
little bit to remain. 

1051
00:56:47,700 --> 00:56:50,900
Jenna more generous is really 
important. 

1052
00:56:50,900 --> 00:56:55,600
I have been given so Many gifts 
over the years in all kinds of 

1053
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:58,300
ways, whether it's a 
conversation which has stopped 

1054
00:56:58,300 --> 00:57:01,600
me in my tracks and made me 
think twice about the next step 

1055
00:57:01,900 --> 00:57:05,300
or whether it's a musical 
instrument that I've been loaned

1056
00:57:05,300 --> 00:57:10,000
or, or an opportunity to meet 
with somebody or an opening, 

1057
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:12,700
whatever it might be recording 
in every register recording and 

1058
00:57:12,700 --> 00:57:15,100
everywhere Studios. 
I mean, how many people do that 

1059
00:57:15,100 --> 00:57:20,700
on a Saturday morning? 
Those get those gifts are things

1060
00:57:20,700 --> 00:57:24,400
that help top you up. 
And put what I would call 

1061
00:57:24,500 --> 00:57:27,300
credits back in the bank, not 
necessarily in a financial 

1062
00:57:27,300 --> 00:57:31,000
sense, but they give you the 
impetus and the energy and the 

1063
00:57:31,008 --> 00:57:34,100
inspiration and the Sparks to 
keep going. 

1064
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:38,400
And they're really, really 
valuable, but it's banking them 

1065
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:41,200
in such a way that you can then 
share that around because 

1066
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:44,900
actually a lot of this world 
exists on that generosity and 

1067
00:57:44,900 --> 00:57:47,700
those connections and that 
gift-giving. 

1068
00:57:48,300 --> 00:57:53,000
And I think that sometimes those
kinds of Generous gifts, can be 

1069
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:56,700
more valuable than a pay rise 
because actually, it gives way 

1070
00:57:56,700 --> 00:57:59,500
to Greater more meaningful 
experiences. 

1071
00:57:59,900 --> 00:58:03,600
So I always think that there's 
something about holding back 

1072
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:08,000
some generosity and knowing when
to deploy that generosity so 

1073
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:12,100
that others stand a chance to 
develop and grow too. 

1074
00:58:12,300 --> 00:58:14,600
And I think what comes around 
goes around. 

1075
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,300
So do you know? 
And I know do genuinely believe 

1076
00:58:17,300 --> 00:58:20,900
that I've had enough, lovely 
experiences like that, like 

1077
00:58:20,900 --> 00:58:23,200
that. 
Now, that I have faith in that, 

1078
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:26,900
and I feel that, that is, that's
the gift of music. 

1079
00:58:27,100 --> 00:58:30,100
You know, I've got an amazing 
experience of that. 

1080
00:58:30,100 --> 00:58:34,800
Actually, I was given was loaned
a contrabassoon. 

1081
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:37,700
So double pursuing these 
instruments of pretty rare, 

1082
00:58:37,700 --> 00:58:40,400
they're very pricey, I was 
loaned. 

1083
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:45,600
One by a gentleman, whose 
daughter knew my mum and he 

1084
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:49,300
played the bassoon for years for
the Royal Opera House years and 

1085
00:58:49,300 --> 00:58:52,700
years and years and years. 
And I was fortunate After have 

1086
00:58:52,700 --> 00:58:56,900
this friendship, he much much, 
or he's now in his 90s is a 

1087
00:58:56,900 --> 00:59:00,300
fabulous musician. 
Amazing tales of all the music 

1088
00:59:00,300 --> 00:59:04,600
that he's made in his life. 
And he couldn't, he can play his

1089
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:07,600
bassoon, sadly, any longer his 
controversial because he was 

1090
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:09,800
going deaf, and he wasn't 
playing professionally, and he 

1091
00:59:09,808 --> 00:59:13,400
was in his 70s and he said, 
look, can you just play it for 

1092
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:15,100
me? 
I just need the instrument 

1093
00:59:15,100 --> 00:59:18,800
played, its was built to be 
made, it was built to be played,

1094
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:22,800
and I will get so much joy 
knowing that your or playing it.

1095
00:59:23,100 --> 00:59:26,400
And and I said, well, you sure 
about this, you know, this is a 

1096
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:31,800
very expensive instrument. 
Yeah, you know that it's yours. 

1097
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:36,100
He said honestly, I've had gifts
in my time and this is my gift 

1098
00:59:36,100 --> 00:59:37,800
to you. 
Just go out and play it and that

1099
00:59:37,808 --> 00:59:42,700
will be enough of a gift to me. 
And so, you know, we've kept in 

1100
00:59:42,700 --> 00:59:47,100
touch over the years, 20 years 
of swung by, and then I did a 

1101
00:59:47,100 --> 00:59:49,600
concert pre-pandemic. 
And I would always email and 

1102
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:51,600
say, look, I'm doing concert if 
you're free come along. 

1103
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:57,100
And he came to this concert and 
I popped to see him in the 

1104
00:59:57,100 --> 00:59:59,100
audience during the interview 
and he said, look this isn't Up 

1105
00:59:59,100 --> 01:00:02,400
For Debate or discussion but 
it's yours. 

1106
01:00:02,700 --> 01:00:05,800
I said what's mine? 
He said the Contra, it's yours I

1107
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:08,400
don't want anything for. 
I just want to know that you 

1108
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:11,100
will have a lifetime of love and
enjoyment with it. 

1109
01:00:11,300 --> 01:00:13,900
You'll go and play lots of 
concerts you'll go and make 

1110
01:00:13,900 --> 01:00:17,100
people smile because it's always
funny when a woman, turns out 

1111
01:00:17,108 --> 01:00:21,100
without your position, then 
honks out these big noise, big 

1112
01:00:21,100 --> 01:00:23,600
notes and noises Has. 
He said, I just want you to do 

1113
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:26,400
that because all I ever wanted 
to know was that this instrument

1114
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:29,900
would have a life and be played.
And I was obviously, in floods 

1115
01:00:29,900 --> 01:00:31,200
of tears. 
That are you sure? 

1116
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:31,800
You sure. 
It's it. 

1117
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:34,500
He said, look, I'm walking away.
Now I'm going to listen to the 

1118
01:00:34,500 --> 01:00:38,300
rest of the concert. 
I don't want to know, just play 

1119
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:40,800
just play. 
And honestly I've had some of 

1120
01:00:40,808 --> 01:00:44,200
the best experiences with that 
instrument Maze and the people 

1121
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:46,200
I've met and the music that's 
been made. 

1122
01:00:46,500 --> 01:00:53,100
And I think that those kinds of 
generous moments, Give you 

1123
01:00:53,300 --> 01:00:56,400
enough to then say I can be 
generous at other times and it, 

1124
01:00:56,400 --> 01:01:00,100
you know, that's my one of my 
experiences of it other people's

1125
01:01:00,100 --> 01:01:04,200
will look and feel very 
different, but it it's what you 

1126
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:07,400
have in the bank to say, you 
know, I have got that 20 minutes

1127
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:10,600
to have that quick call or I can
see that person needs a little 

1128
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:13,600
helping hand. 
I've got enough space this month

1129
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:15,700
to need to have that 
conversation. 

1130
01:01:15,700 --> 01:01:17,200
Or actually, I just need to 
sign. 

1131
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:20,500
Post them over to Hayley, or 
whatever it might be, you know. 

1132
01:01:20,500 --> 01:01:23,500
And I think that, Whether it's a
big moment like that of 

1133
01:01:23,500 --> 01:01:25,900
generosity or whether it's 
little moments, note them, 

1134
01:01:26,300 --> 01:01:29,900
because actually, you need to 
give them back to somebody else 

1135
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,300
or pass them on later on down 
the line. 

1136
01:01:32,300 --> 01:01:34,200
Yeah, and I think it ties in 
really nicely what you were 

1137
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:36,900
saying earlier about advocating 
for each other because it can 

1138
01:01:36,900 --> 01:01:40,700
also be, you know, someone 
advocated for me and gave me 

1139
01:01:40,700 --> 01:01:43,900
this opportunity and I can't 
wait for the opportunity to do 

1140
01:01:43,900 --> 01:01:47,700
that someone else because it 
feels so wonderful to just open 

1141
01:01:47,700 --> 01:01:52,000
a door or mention, someone's 
name in a room and watch that. 

1142
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:54,000
Kind of happen. 
And actually that is so 

1143
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:55,500
rewarding. 
I love it. 

1144
01:01:55,500 --> 01:01:57,800
If that's ever happened and you 
just feel like you played a part

1145
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:00,200
in that by putting two people 
and touch and then they've done 

1146
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:03,100
something amazing together or, 
yeah, you know, recommending 

1147
01:02:03,100 --> 01:02:05,000
someone like you said advocating
for each other. 

1148
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:07,700
And I think what you're saying 
about banking. 

1149
01:02:07,700 --> 01:02:10,700
The generosity is really 
important and having that 

1150
01:02:10,700 --> 01:02:13,800
balance with good boundaries, 
knowing yourself worth all of 

1151
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,600
that. 
But also knowing that as we were

1152
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:20,100
saying the music industry is 
people industry and it's about 

1153
01:02:20,100 --> 01:02:24,300
connecting with people and 
sometimes someone will be a 

1154
01:02:24,300 --> 01:02:27,200
champion for you and you will be
a champion for other people. 

1155
01:02:27,300 --> 01:02:29,400
Absolutely. 
And I think the other thing is 

1156
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,600
that it helps with boundaries in
a sort of slightly weird way 

1157
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:37,000
because there is and I think we 
might have the same personality 

1158
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:39,800
trait to be everything to 
everyone and do everything and, 

1159
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:44,800
you know, just to the time. 
And actually, when you can say, 

1160
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:46,700
do you know what? 
I'm going to get more pleasure 

1161
01:02:46,700 --> 01:02:49,500
from putting those two people in
touch because actually together,

1162
01:02:49,500 --> 01:02:52,000
they'll be great. 
They'll make good things happen.

1163
01:02:52,100 --> 01:02:55,300
Then in the satisfaction of 
knowing, well, I connected them 

1164
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:59,200
and watching that relationship. 
Now, flourish and that turned 

1165
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:03,000
into this action is really 
rewarding and I think that is a 

1166
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:06,400
way of putting some kind of 
boundaries in because we it's 

1167
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:09,000
exciting this work, it's really 
thrilling. 

1168
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:12,000
And when you know you're making 
a difference and making change 

1169
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:16,000
happen that can be such a 
motivator that it can also 

1170
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:19,400
deplete you senselessly because 
you just keep going, keep going,

1171
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:21,500
keep going. 
Because actually if you say you 

1172
01:03:21,500 --> 01:03:25,300
know, it It's really exciting to
spark that over there and then 

1173
01:03:25,300 --> 01:03:28,700
spark that over there and then 
spark that and you can step back

1174
01:03:28,700 --> 01:03:30,200
and go. 
Well, actually I've just spotted

1175
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:32,000
a need over here. 
I'm going to go and be useful 

1176
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:33,000
over there. 
Yeah. 

1177
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:37,800
And do that then actually that I
think that's another way of 

1178
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:40,800
helping manage boundaries that 
you don't feel, you have to do 

1179
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:43,000
everything. 
And and you can let go of some 

1180
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:45,600
stuff and be like, you know, I 
had a hand in that but I've 

1181
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:48,200
stepped away from that. 
Now that's that's I've done my 

1182
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:50,800
bit. 
Can you tell us what your 

1183
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:56,900
favorite? 
female artist is maybe like the 

1184
01:03:56,908 --> 01:03:59,700
reason I put it the question 
into it's like, of all time. 

1185
01:03:59,700 --> 01:04:03,700
So it's looking like of of the 
bit, the big, you've got to 

1186
01:04:03,700 --> 01:04:06,300
think of someone like, you know,
everybody probably knows. 

1187
01:04:06,300 --> 01:04:09,300
I don't know. 
And then also, maybe like a 

1188
01:04:09,300 --> 01:04:12,400
current just to just to prove 
that there are women out there 

1189
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:17,500
doing it if nothing else. 
Well, I've got a slightly 

1190
01:04:17,500 --> 01:04:22,500
oblique answer to the first 
question, which is all of those 

1191
01:04:22,500 --> 01:04:25,000
female composers back in the 
day. 

1192
01:04:25,100 --> 01:04:29,700
Whether it was the 1600s, the 
1800s, the 1900, who were women,

1193
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:32,800
who couldn't pass their work off
as their own, and we might not 

1194
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:35,900
know their names, but actually 
their husbands claimed their 

1195
01:04:35,900 --> 01:04:38,800
work. 
Where were the rights then? 

1196
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:41,500
Yeah, you know, and that's so 
many talented. 

1197
01:04:41,500 --> 01:04:45,700
Women were composing amazing 
music and that music couldn't be

1198
01:04:45,700 --> 01:04:47,000
there. 
As it couldn't be known to be, 

1199
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:53,000
there's no but they paved the 
way for so many other people to 

1200
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:57,300
shine and we can't acknowledge a
lot of those women, but they 

1201
01:04:57,300 --> 01:05:00,700
were absolutely fundamental in 
the progressions of movements of

1202
01:05:00,700 --> 01:05:03,100
the progressions of artists of 
composers. 

1203
01:05:04,500 --> 01:05:07,500
And they don't get the 
recognition anywhere near as 

1204
01:05:07,500 --> 01:05:09,600
much as they should do. 
And I know there were experts 

1205
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:13,400
out there who know tons about 
this, but it's those unsung 

1206
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:16,500
women as is often the case in so
many walks of life. 

1207
01:05:16,500 --> 01:05:19,400
Hmm, that don't get the 
recognition that they deserve, 

1208
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:24,100
so that would be my kind of, I 
think that's a perfect, perfect 

1209
01:05:24,100 --> 01:05:26,800
answer for that. 
And I think it's again, 

1210
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:30,600
something that is it is getting 
better, but actually still exist

1211
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:32,400
in some way. 
It's definitely better than it 

1212
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:36,100
was with seeing progression. 
Improvement, but it's, that is 

1213
01:05:36,100 --> 01:05:38,800
actually still a challenge. 
So I think that's a really 

1214
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:43,700
great, a really great answer and
to acknowledge that. 

1215
01:05:43,700 --> 01:05:47,400
That is something that is better
but is still there. 

1216
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:51,200
And that's something we actually
need to continue to shine a 

1217
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:56,400
light on the female artists 
songwriters composers and give 

1218
01:05:56,400 --> 01:06:01,300
them the do kind of credit 
respect that they deserve and 

1219
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:04,900
visibility which is you know the
whole point in the A little bit.

1220
01:06:04,900 --> 01:06:09,400
Yeah, so great answer and your 
you have a current answer. 

1221
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:13,100
Yeah, again, maybe possibly a 
bit left field but Marin alsop. 

1222
01:06:13,300 --> 01:06:18,700
The famous female conductor who 
has conducted in the UK and most

1223
01:06:18,700 --> 01:06:22,900
famously in America. 
It is terrifying standing in 

1224
01:06:22,900 --> 01:06:26,300
front of a full Symphony, 
Orchestra, all of those people 

1225
01:06:26,300 --> 01:06:30,100
looking at you for your 
interpretation, for your command

1226
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:33,900
and for you to have to know 
every detail of that piece of 

1227
01:06:33,900 --> 01:06:36,500
music, If every part you need to
know that music better than the 

1228
01:06:36,500 --> 01:06:40,600
players because you need to be 
drawing out of them, the magic. 

1229
01:06:41,100 --> 01:06:44,200
And you need to get that group 
of people working together and 

1230
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:46,800
you need to be in full control 
at all times. 

1231
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:50,300
But also know when you can stop 
and give them the space to be 

1232
01:06:50,300 --> 01:06:54,100
what they need to be, which is a
group of musicians, making music

1233
01:06:54,300 --> 01:06:55,900
and I think she's really 
inspirational. 

1234
01:06:55,900 --> 01:06:58,600
Because conducting is 
predominantly a male. 

1235
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:01,900
I mean, she's a Trailblazer 
really, there's hardly any 

1236
01:07:01,900 --> 01:07:04,900
female conductors, especially on
that kind of Of scale. 

1237
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:06,600
No, indeed. 
Exactly. 

1238
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:11,100
And I have such admiration for 
her because she's been so dogged

1239
01:07:11,100 --> 01:07:14,200
in her career and and produced 
incredible works. 

1240
01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:17,800
But that that moment where 
you're standing there with a 

1241
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:21,500
baton you're looking at this, 
Orchestra it could go many 

1242
01:07:21,500 --> 01:07:26,300
different ways. 
As I, it's terrifying, and 

1243
01:07:26,300 --> 01:07:29,200
you've got a thousand people 
behind you and you've got a 

1244
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:32,500
hundred people in front of you. 
And interestingly, you don't 

1245
01:07:32,500 --> 01:07:36,000
make a noise. 
You just visual yeah, your 

1246
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:39,500
visual there you commanding, but
that music is running through 

1247
01:07:39,500 --> 01:07:41,500
your brain and everything your 
body. 

1248
01:07:41,500 --> 01:07:42,600
Yeah. 
Of your body. 

1249
01:07:42,600 --> 01:07:45,000
Yeah. 
And to be able to command that 

1250
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:47,500
and control and conduct. 
But then, you know, we go back 

1251
01:07:47,500 --> 01:07:49,800
to an earlier Point. 
Think about the life skills in 

1252
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:52,400
that. 
Think about the leadership, the 

1253
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:56,000
ability to see it scale to be 
able to see in detail to be able

1254
01:07:56,000 --> 01:07:59,700
to bring Parts together, to be 
able to put things to the back, 

1255
01:07:59,700 --> 01:08:03,300
bring something to the for, you 
know, to be able to blend colors

1256
01:08:03,300 --> 01:08:04,700
and tones. 
And Tom Brady's. 

1257
01:08:04,700 --> 01:08:07,600
And you know, that's, that's 
amazing leadership. 

1258
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:11,200
So, as another really solid 
answer. 

1259
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:15,000
Thank you so much grace, but 
it's been so lovely to have you.

1260
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:18,000
And I honestly wish we did have 
more time because it has more 

1261
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:21,800
questions, but maybe maybe we'll
do it another time. 

1262
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:25,000
Thanks so much for coming to a 
beer 8:00 on a Saturday. 

1263
01:08:25,700 --> 01:08:27,200
So much a really good 
conversation. 

1264
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:28,500
I really loved it. 
Thank you. 

1265
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:31,899
Thank you. 
Thanks for listening. 

1266
01:08:32,300 --> 01:08:35,500
And if you enjoyed this episode,
please like, share and 

1267
01:08:35,500 --> 01:08:36,200
subscribe.