Anyway. Anyway.
Hello and welcome to whose song is it anyway.
I'm dr. Haley Bosher.
And for this special season of the podcast focusing on women in
the music industry I'll be your host.
So, welcome Grace. Hello.
Good morning. Tell our listeners what you do
in the music industry. What I do in the music industry,
I run a national campaign called music for dementia, which is
funded by the only foundation. And it's a campaign to ensure
that everyone living with dementia has access to music as
part of their care. And the reason why we're so
passionate about that is because of the way in which music
interacts with dementia and what it can do for those living with
dementia. And those importantly, who Are
for them. Let's go back in time a little
bit. Like, how did you start this
career? How did you get into this area
in the first place? Gosh, that feels like a big
question. I had a very young age got into
music and I don't come from a musical family at all.
There is no musical genius in the field in the family.
I was just naturally curious about it and got a real thrill
and Buzz from singing. I've sang in churches, I like
lots of people started. Of pain recorder.
I taught myself how to read music, playing the recorder and
came home of the violin. Much to my parents horror
because back in the days, when, you know, you could get free
music lessons and use free instruments from school.
And I blame my best friend actually a lot for this because
at secondary school, she started to learn to play the bassoon.
And I went to her house one night and said, what is that?
That's amazing. I want to go on that, and honked
away on it, and the next day brazenly, Ran into school and
said to the head of music, I can play the bassoon and he just
said, I do not think you can do that.
I said, I've, I can I can. He said, I will, I will give you
a free between us and if you can just put the thing together and
so I put it together and he looked at me in amazement and
then said right? Okay, you can have a lesson now
can you make a noise on it? And I honked a few notes.
He went okay quick quick, let's get you some lessons and then
suddenly there was an instrument that appeared out of nowhere
because there's always a bassoon in a Cupboard somewhere and then
it dominated my teenage years. And then went to music college.
And it was a real shock because actually, you don't get taught,
especially coming from a comprehensive School background.
What music college is really like it's a completely different
world. There are kids there who have
been doing this since the age of four.
They've got networks. That was a big differentiator
was the amount of level of networking that existed that
pre-existed before, you know, kids came to music college.
And so I did, I did my degree and I pretty quickly realized
actually that I didn't want to be having built this dream as a
teenager and practiced for five hours a day and given myself
scoliosis and, you know, really lift my instrument and my
passion. I realized I didn't want to be a
first bassoonist in a Orchestra and there were lots of reasons
for that. Not least because I was told
that you'd earn a maximum of 75. 90 pounds a day, having put in a
12-hour day. And I thought, how does that
work? I've put in thousands and
thousands of hours and I'm going to get paid pennies to entertain
people and perform and give something of myself every day,
but also the world is so insecure.
You don't know whether you're going to be working from one day
to the next. You're only as good as your last
gig, all of those kinds of things.
But I was Finding there was a bigger gaping hole.
Actually, for me, which was what is this about?
Who am I doing? This for what's the purpose of
this music? Making a my just date entry?
Basically, am I just churning out notes for the sake of it?
What is the bigger purpose of this?
And I felt something really absent in all of it.
Which is why do we make music? What's that about?
And consequently I left my bassoon at music College.
After I finished my degree, I left it in the cupboard for six
months and I thought, well, I better go and get that because
it's worth a bit. A bit of money.
I don't know, since you're just call, this thing went from
something that you were physically touching, you know,
and holding and playing and, you know, there's such an emotional
connection with an instrument that you spend that much time
playing for 5 hours a day to something.
That you forgot in a Cupboard. Yeah.
And yeah, it was, it was really straight.
I felt like I'd lost a huge part of me and, you know, even my
posture as I sat was even as a bassoonists posture and I Just
felt immensely sad and so I didn't play for two years after
leaving music college. And I thought that's it.
Maybe I'm done. What do I do now?
Hang on a minute. They didn't.
They didn't teach his what to do with a degree in music
performance. If you'd haven't got any skills
and that was the scary thing, because you don't come out with
academic skills. Particularly because you only do
four hours, why did only four hours of academic lectures a
week? You know, you're not proficient
in that sense but you've got that capacity.
That's not been fostered in the same way as if you've gone and
done your academic degree, you are great as a music performer,
but what does that mean in the practical sense?
And it took me a long time to translate those skills.
You know, in terms of it means being able to lead means being
able to sit alongside it means. Being able to achieve tune, it
means being able to see the bigger picture being able to
shine at the right moments. All those skills that make up a
musician. But actually they often aren't
translated into The workplace because oh, it's just nice,
being a musician. All that's great.
You've got a lovely set of skills but actually, what does
that mean in the workplace? Well, it means an awful lot.
It doesn't actually get articulated when it comes to a
person's back or a job description.
Totally, I actually really similar experience that I did a
Performing Arts diploma at college and then got to the end
of it. And for similar reasons of like,
oh, but I come from a working-class background and I
was like I'm not gonna be able to pay bills divers, like I
don't know what I'm going to do. So I better do something
academic that will get me a job at the end.
I'm going to do a law degree but you know what in my job now and
all the things I do, I probably benefited more from those two
years in Performing Arts confidence stage presence there,
lot of critical analysis. Actually when you think about
how am I going to perform this? Mostly memorizing scripts.
That's coming hand. Absolutely.
But memory, there's loads of things that I think, I'm so
great. Faithful I did that and no
regrets whatsoever but same as you it took me a long time.
To realize that doing that training was is totally
transferable here and I would add human skills because you to
music for music to function. People need to be able to be
with each other. Yeah.
And so whether you're back front of house back of house
production, stage management performing part of the courts.
Whatever your role is, you've got to be human, you've got to
be able to be human. And what I found being able to
take some time out was really to think about why I love music.
Hmm. And that set me on a whole path
of its exploration and Discovery and really it was in part
inspired an awful lot by my younger youngest brother who has
cerebral palsy and learning difficulties.
So he had a really bad storm own would get very anxious and to
look at him, he wouldn't necessarily know that he's got
sir. Double palsy.
But he had this amazing way. We didn't know that he had
learning disabilities at school because he was able to memorize
books, and it wasn't until he had to do a reading test and he
couldn't read. What was on the page that they
discovered there was something wrong and it was because he'd
been able to memorize things and take them in and take and make
characters out of them. He got into acting.
And watching him go up on stage where he bought these scripts to
life, whatever they were. And there was no stutter, there
was no stammered. There was just this confidence
that blossomed out him. And I thought, gosh, you're
acting does that for him, then surely music has got to do that
and then some more. So I started to look into music
therapy and so I went and did some introductory courses and I
was immediately hooked my like this is it, this is it because
this is about people and relationships and that to me,
What music is all about musics, like this, almost the secondary
thing for me. What music is about, is about
Connections, relationships, communication and music therapy,
was that in, you know, all mashed together in the most
amazing way, and I always attribute this one moment to why
I went on and then did my music therapy Masters?
Which was a data center in Hackney with a group of adults
with dementia and the Therapist was absolutely extraordinary and
she just brought these people together in the most
compassionate way. Really?
They all were sitting in the room, they're all in their own
worlds, and their own ways. And the way in which she
captured the mood and the feeling through music, all
improvised and made everyone, have a voice created that voice
in that space for them brought them then into being together as
a group and It made sense of somebody's babbling and gave it
context and meaning it, it gave somebody's eye gaze.
A reason to then gaze to somebody else and it brought
somebody else literally out of their sleep.
To the point where we were all up on our feet and dancing
together, and I thought I want to be able to do that, I want to
be able to bring people together like that to create meaningful
experiences. Because why should those people
be written off because they've got dementia?
Mmm. At the same time, I'd been so,
You finding my way back into the world of music, through music
education, really. So I was working on the music
Manifesto campaign, so that was back, sort of mid 2000 and then
as a as a result of that, very successful Campaign, which
secured a lot of money for music education, I was then involved
in the singer up Campaign, which was all about getting Primary
School singing again. And whilst doing that, I was
then beginning to work for the British Association for music
therapy. In an admin capacity.
And so I was sort of knitting things together and then went
and did my Master's while continuing to work for the
association the a PMT as it was back then and then loved my
experience of training as a music therapist because actually
the academic side of me, really got to fly a bit because I
really missed that and I you know delved into the theory but
also got to experience such a range of people through all the
Basements that you do and the people that you meet when you're
training. It's so what is a music
therapist as suppose, one way of thinking about it?
The elevator pitches, it's like going to see a talkin therapist
but you do with music. So a music therapist has got a
psychological training so it understands child.
Attachment Theory, family Theory, you know, all the
different sort of theories out there around psychological
well-being. But we're putting into music
things are often. Don't feel safe to say verbally,
or you haven't got the capacity to say, physically,
physiologically or emotionally, it's just too much.
So, I often say, you know, when words are too much, not enough
or no longer available musics, there is that other channel of
communication. So when I worked in acute,
Psychiatry some of the adults that I worked with had such
terrifying and torturous thoughts that to say them out,
loud would Make them real for them.
So that voice that's saying go and do something harmful to
yourself, or do something really dangerous by articulating that
that might give them the compulsion to act upon that.
But if we can put that energy that emotional power into music,
it makes it safer because actually, you can work with that
and you can give it context and meaning, and it's contained and
that's the really powerful thing.
It's Contained and you can record it, you can play it back,
you can analyze it with the person that you're working with.
So we often did that actually in Psychiatry because it was a
moment of reflection and realization and often helped
somebody appreciate depending on their psychological state where
they might be at. So if they were in a more
resilient State, they would be able to listen back with a kind
of critical air and say aw, You know what, when we were
recording at, I thought that sounded great but actually that
sounds awful and whoa. Hang on.
Can we can we do it again and you'd realize that actually,
there's a real sense of self there.
Whereas, with some people they would record and, you know,
they'd be playing, maybe an open string data tune, electric
guitar and I mean, it was horrific like auditoria, you
know, you be like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Where's the music here? Where's the music here?
But it's, it wasn't about the music.
It was about the expression and effect.
The emotion behind the expression and then they play it
back and then actually might then lead into an explanation of
what that music was for them. So they might be able to start
talking about what that was, but it was a way of containing, but
also illustrating and bringing to life in a safe way, what they
were experiencing or another way of thinking about it is when
you're very vulnerable, It's very hard to put into words
because it can feel very permanent.
I've said that I can't take it back whereas actually there's a
there's a safeness in music or they can be because you can
articulate something, but it can be a bit Bleak, you know, it
doesn't have to be your kind of expressing an emotion or
something emotionally. It's very cathartic, isn't it?
Like I'm thinking about what you're saying and also I've done
a lot of therapy, I've done different types of therapy,
psychotherapy Beep, CBT, couples therapy, you name it.
I've done it. So I'm thinking about my
experience of that and how different it might have been.
If it was music therapy, given your explanation and there was
definitely times when therapy was re-traumatizing for me and I
couldn't I didn't have the words to articulate some of the things
and then when I did get to a point where I could speak the
words, you're right there is it's terrifying.
Mmm. And so I really love that idea.
It's almost like a language that you can understand but you don't
know the Civics of what I'm saying, when I'm not ready or
don't want to verbalize something.
I'm giving you a way to understand how I'm feeling
rather than like specific reflection of an experience.
So I could just really appreciate how it could be so
effective as a way to work through an emotion.
Absolutely. And as your role as a therapist
is to be the stage upon which your client shines so you're
giving them a context for what might I feel strange or alien or
uncomfortable or difficult and you're you're working through a
process of transformation. So you're taking something and
which might feel naughty powerful overwhelming and
transforming that energy. So thinking about the third law
of thermodynamics nothing is destroyed or created its what do
you do with that? And and therapy is a
transformative experience and music is a transformative
experience. You don't have to be in a
therapeutic context. It's boots that you put on a
piece of music, you're feeling like one thing, you listen to
that music, you have a response and you engage in an onion
reaction to it. And you feel something else at
the end, that is the process of music.
So really, it's a developed version of that, we turn to
therapy for lots of different reasons, whether it's palliative
care. I mean, some of the most
profound work is in palliative care because bereavement is
hard, bereavement is Be difficult and I think lots of
people will resonate with that over the last three years
particularly but some of the work I found really moving was
when somebody would talk to a music therapist and say, look I
want to leave a legacy. I don't know how to do it but I
can't say it. I can't I can't tell my family
how much I love them, but I love this song.
What can we do with this song? And then the therapist would say
well who matters to you and And what kinds of things would you
like to say to them? How do we take those lyrics
change them so that they're meaningful to you and your
family and we'll keep that chord structure or will stick blindly
to that song. You know, we'll go with it and
we'll fit the lyrics to the structure and all of those kinds
of thing. But in doing so you get to leave
a legacy and that's something that your family can always
return to and that is the gift of Music, isn't it?
But I think Music can be such a comforter in the in the face of
loss and bereavement the, you know, it's really it's a really
special gift to be able to facilitate and music does that
thing. It's that incredible Bridge,
whether it's a bridge into dementia, whether it's a bridge
through palliative care or whether it's a bridge into
somebody's learning disabled space, you know, there's it does
that incredible Act of bridging. Yeah, it just moves through
barriers doesn't it has this amazing ability?
Connect people, whether it's strangers in a concert.
Think got live music. I mean, you feel the energy of
the room or like you're saying in a really intimate powerful
kind of personal? Hmm, you can connect with
someone who's not even there anymore it's just beautiful.
I love it and I do think in general we're talking about the
ways that music is powerful in these kind of anecdotal
experience, shal ways but the science is is catching up,
right? I would have been reading About
experiments. Well they'll put a composer into
an MRI scanner and they will improvise and they watch how the
brain responds and all this amazing data that showing that
you are more likely. If you are a student studying
for exams to do better in your academic subjects.
If you're learning a musical instrument at the same time you
know, all these incredible studies that aren't actually
proving what we already know which is you know the power of
music is tangible. And it is there in whether it's
to do with well-being, and like you said, across all whether
it's learning difficulties or whether it's just making life
and Society, a better place Community bringing people
together. I just think it's absolutely
fascinating. I can't get enough of these
studies of like, you know stroke victims the people who listen to
music as part of their recovery recovered faster and more
permanently the even than those who listen to audio books.
So it's not about the act of sitting in listening.
Because sometimes I think with with those things is it that you
sit quite meditatively and have a quiet.
Maybe they're breathing calmly and all this stuff, no, because
the audiobook didn't do the same effect as the music in the
recovery of a stroke, which I just think it's kind of magical
because it's like your heart. You're here.
Music is a legit Healing Hearts. I mean we and and we're smiling
as we talk about this because that we were already
subconsciously and consciously Conjuring up how we might have
been experiencing music music is in us because we're inherently
musical beings. We are either.
You know, passionately believe this musical creatures.
You know, it's the first thing we hear we, you know, I'm others
armies, cool beans. They've got rhythm running
through them, they got Harmony, they've got, they've got a vocal
line, you know? They're just, just then walking
and US feeling that we're naturally really cool beans.
Yeah, absolutely. The swishing of the amniotic
fluid, you know, we are Urkel creatures.
And what's so sad in the west often is that that's crushed so
early because we want to formalize it, you know, we get
we have to learn it in a certain way when actually we can absorb
music in so many different ways. So I think we are just beginning
to really bring to the to the for this thing that we've been
talking about the power of music and the way that can transcend,
what A talking about whether it's Health well-being, societal
challenges. It's not a Panacea and it's not
going to make everyone walk around and feel super brilliant
all the time. But it has these tangible, as
you say and very real impacts that we're not harnessing
anywhere near as much as we could be which is why I felt so
passionately that we had to put that report out.
Why we had to galvanize? Not only the music industry to
this Mission but the health care.
The care sector The Wider way in which we think about health and
well-being. We are in the worst possible
position at the moment. You know, we're sitting here
recording this beginning of January.
We know that the NHS is in a very broken State.
We know that social cares and very broken state.
That record has been playing the same track.
Now for a long time, not just the last three years but for
decades because we're not thinking about preventable
health. We're not thinking about a
health in a forward-looking way. We're constantly firefighting
whereas actually, if we started to think about health in a more
preventative rehabilitative way, we might not be in such a
difficult position at the moment.
But also in the way we think about each other, the way we
care are the compassion that we could have for each other.
And if we could do that differently, and I genuinely
believe that music gives us a way to do that differently.
We might find that We might not have such churn in Social care.
We might have people who feel more valued, who feel more
passionate about their job, who feel more rewarded, when they go
to work, because they feel tangible rewards.
They see that the people they're caring for responding to them.
I think that's but there's there is momentum building and I
wonder if was thinking about when you were talking is how
you're also seeing in the healthcare system for all its
woes. But this holistic approach to
Health Care Now much more than ever before.
So this idea that mind and body are connected.
We're seeing a shift now in GPS, prescribing mindfulness and
meditation. And all that kind of stuff.
And I think what you're talking about comes at such a pivotal
moment where these kind of things had to happen at the same
time. Do you think where we are
thinking more open-minded? You did lie about what is
well-being? What is health care?
How do we look after ourselves? It's not just take a pill, you
know, there are other tools that are just as effective.
If not more on a lot of occasions in terms of, you know,
there's no side effects. There's no negative side effects
to listening to zoom Music in the same way that you might find
with taking an antidepressant. So I wonder if we're at like a
real important moment in terms of that kind of coming together
of a progression in how we think about health care and a
progression in how we think about music at the same time.
Absolutely. I think what's happened
seismically as we thought about personalization and what it
means to have care, that matters to you what matters to you.
And why? And I think when you start from
that position, You are much more likely to get to where you want
to be for that person more quickly because you're you're
listening to them and we all need to be seen heard and felt
we instantly feel better when those three things happen, you
know, I was just going to say there are studies that show that
people who go to the doctor feel better, even if the doctor
doesn't do anything because it's relational.
Yeah, we are social creatures, we need connection.
Yeah. And I think that what we're
saying with music is it? It's a shortcut to them.
It's Personal. Yeah but it's also Collective.
So you know if you're finding that you don't belong, actually
one of the most powerful things you can do is go and be part of
a group that makes music whether you're singing tune or not as a
rather. Yeah it doesn't matter a lot of
time. It's about the relationships
that come about because of that shared experience and equally
like you say, it can be that comfort of, do you know?
I can't get out of bed today, the depression is crippling, but
you know what? I know there's a song that might
just shift my mood. Ooh, 10 notches to the point
where I could think about opening the curtains and
actually, if I see some sunlight and that music continues, I
might just be able to get out of bed and that's not to trivialize
the power of depression, but it's to say that it's not
something that has to stop you. And it's and and there are
things that can alleviate and immediately and it may not cure
your depression, but it might help you to manage it and live
better with it because a lot of these things that we live with
today. We can't cure dementia being one
of Yeah, we can't cure it, but we can live better with it.
A lot of mental health conditions, you can't cure.
You know, we just don't have the neuro psychological biological
understanding of them and the drugs don't quite work for them
because actually, you know, some mental health conditions aren't
just that they are deeply emotionally rooted in us so it's
not that music as I was saying earlier, as a Panacea, but it's
a way of helping us to live better.
Better to manage better to enhance and enrich quality of
life. Yeah.
And I think that there is this moment as you say now, and I
felt really powerfully about this as we've got this moment to
reimagine how we think about our health and well-being, how we
care for others, how we connect with others, how we relate with
others. And I think what's exciting is,
how excited people are to that notion.
And I've really felt that across the music industry because I
think what it does is it makes what we do with music.
Really human and really personal.
So I wanted to ask you on that about your experience of the
music industry as a community because you've mentioned like
there's a feeling of lots of people coming together and
different sectors of the music industry because I think
sometimes we talk about the music industry, like it's one
thing and I've definitely found in my experience that actually.
There's pockets and groups and committee communities within a
larger community So what's your experience being of working in
the music industry as a fantastic question?
Because I think it's been very multifaceted, I felt very much
at the edge at times. So for example, when I was at
music College, I didn't feel I was in the music industry, I
felt like I was an Elite Training School, not knowing
where my place would be eventually.
Or could be, and likewise being in the heart of the music
therapy Community. When I was working for the
association, it was like, well, how does the therapy world of
Music? Relate to what people might
perceive as the glitzy and all the production and or the
performance, and how do these all fit together and then, being
an amateur musician and playing for fun.
Now, how does that relate to what I do day to day?
And so, I think, I think it's a it's a shifting.
Dimensional industry. That has many tracks in it and
I'm from my perspective, what I found really exciting to observe
and be part of over the past. Two to three years is seeing
those tracks converge, much more and I sort of come at that with
a with a wider lens, which is the mission with the campaign.
The music for the winter campaign has always been about
trying to bring together Health social care music, third sector
government. So it's always been about I'm
shift those big moving parts that often feel very immovable.
And then inside all of those worlds, there are lots of many
communities as you say, and some of those many communities don't
talk to each other. But actually, what I've been
seeing more recently in the music industry, broadly is a
much greater willingness to talk to each other and I think that
is what the music industry has been able to embrace.
Is that it's really easy to be human with music.
And that's essentially what everybody whether it's rights.
Before me songwriting, we're trying to be human.
We're trying to express something of what it means to of
the human condition of what it means to be.
And I think the, the essence of this has galvanized and captured
people's imaginations and that's not to sound all sort of.
Whoo. Whoo.
I think it. Sounds lovely and, and sounds
odd. But actually, there's some hard
cold facts to that, which is what we go back to you, which is
the underlying science. Yeah.
The way in which we've seen reduction in staff turnover.
We know that there's an improvement and marked
improvement in quality of care, you know, there are distinct
measurables that we can point to that show that it's not just
this nice to have something we can show it.
It's a an indicator of improved quality of life, all of those
kinds of things. So as of women in the music
industry and your experience, what do you find your biggest
challenge or a challenge that you faced from that perspective,
really? Really good question.
I think it's about identity and profile.
And this has been a passion of mine celebrating the power of
music and galvanizing and mobilizing people to its to its
Mission really for a long time. And I remember trying to raise
this pre-pandemic with significant bodies within the
industry and the lightener. We don't really know who you
are. You just yet another little
Charity. One.
Person on a In trying to make a difference.
No, thanks very much. But no, this isn't this isn't
for us. This isn't for us.
And actually, the biggest challenge of being able to be
part of the industry is about being part of the network.
And what it takes is an ally and an advocate and a champion to be
alongside you to help you open doors.
It takes one person. It and some people have 10
people And others have more than that, but it can just take one
person to open the door so that you can go and meet people and
be connected. And we were saying what we about
how we were at an event and that's how we got talking.
And suddenly, we're here having this amazing conversation
together and will no doubt keep in conversation and I think
there's a lot more that we can do and, and talk about together.
But That doesn't happen unless you've got somebody who opens
doors for you, but also recognizes that it's not all
just about you wanting to take from others.
That you've got a contribution that you can see perhaps a gap
or a need and that you're wanting to meet that need with
your skills and your expertise and it is expertise.
I think, you know, we're both sitting here with a with a
wealth of knowledge skills and expertise and that's not being
said in a big-headed. Lucas neither of us are like
that, but I think with, you know, with years of practice
behind us, we're allowed to say that.
And it's okay to say that, and we ought to say that and say it
really confidently. Funny how even as you're saying
it, you're sort of caveat eating that your thing.
And it's like, no, no, we are experts, 100%, you know, but
it's not easy to say that as a woman because you're worried in
general about how that comes across, you don't want to see
him boastful or hmm, Brash or obnoxious Cautious or anything
like that. And I think I completely relate
to that, that like identifying yourself as an expert and for
years. People like, I struggled with
people like what is it that you do?
And I don't know how to verbalize what it is that I do
in a way. That's like I suppose I'm a
copyright expert and I allowed to say experts who sometimes I'd
say specialist as a yes yeah absolutely.
And I think one of the ways that I really Try to challenge myself
on this and I think it's come out of music therapy when I've
been supporting other music therapist to think about their
careers. And when they've come to me and
said look I can't get through the door of this school, all
this care home. How do I attack articulate?
My value to neat and I I've said go and understand what the lead
is. So if it's a school go and read
their school report, find out, whether weaknesses are and look
at what you can do, what is it that your expertise, your Skills
can help with that need, how can you support that need?
How can I help you? Not?
What can you give me? Because the minute you come at
it like that. You're only going to meet closed
doors. What can I bring to the table
here? How can I help?
What difference might I be able to make here?
And it, you know, the same in a care home.
How can I help? Why have we got a dysfunctional
group of Staff. What's going on here?
What is the need? All the needs and How do I
support those? Then I can start to articulate
my value because I can say, We'll look, I can help reduce
staff turnover. I can improve staff morale.
I can quantify that, and I can tell you that my hourly rate is
absolutely on the money and that it's not expensive and that
you'll see a return on investment for that.
Yeah. And I think that for me has been
one of the ways in which I've tried to overcome that.
Oh, but there are lots of Charities out there.
There are lots of Campaigns out there.
You know, why should we listen to yours?
Well, this is. This is about a really big need,
and we're trying to meet that really big need, but to do it.
We all need to do it together, and I'm here to try and bring
people together to connect, to make those relationships, come
to live, and then Foster commitments from people so that
we can make change happen. So for me, it's been very much
about that mindset of what is the need?
What can I do to help meet that? Need what value can I bring?
And I think once you can start to begin to articulate their or
even just to think about that because it's quite daunting.
Yeah, you can start to have some confidence and some belief in
your self-worth and a little more kind of space at the table
of. Okay.
I don't just have to sit here. So Meek and Mild.
I do know a little bit about what I say.
I think. I know a little bit about.
Yeah, that really resonates with me.
I think I have been lucky and some ways that I've got kind of
this. Inherent need to feel useful.
Hmm. Which is in some ways.
It's very good and I think I owe a lot of My Success to that what
you've just said, I've done all my life and at the same time
there is that can tip over into something negative and because
then, if I'm not being useful, I don't, you know, I connect my
self-worth with being useful. Yeah, so there's positives and
negatives to that and I also think that it can really help if
you can reflect on where you can be useful, it definitely opened
doors and it can make You recognize your worthiness and
expertise in the reason why you are sat at that table.
But how do you manage that in terms of boundaries and making
sure that you are not being so useful and helpful all the time
like your time as a gift that you just give out to everybody
freely and I suppose tie in that self-worth and that recognizing
what you bring to the table and making sure that you are fairly
paid and Rated and recognized and credited for your expertise.
I'm asking you like you know the answer.
Well I'm I don't think I do know the answer but I'd say I'm
navigating it and I think the last 18 months of have been a
really interesting time of that in terms of being asked to do
stuff and I think like anybody in any industry, you do the odd
freebie. And I have to now start
practicing what I preached when I was dishing out information to
music therapist when I worked for the British Association of
music therapy, I would be horrified when a music therapist
would say, oh well, I've just offered them ten sessions for
free. You've done what?
Yeah. Why have you given them?
Not only 10 clinical hours, but the hours that you love put
around that to prepare the room, right notes, etc, etc.
I'm seeing you. Why are they done that?
Why they don't know why they done that.
What what's whereof? They got to.
What's the position that they've got to where they think they
should give away a terms worth of work?
The free like, hang on a minute. Why are we in this mindset?
And so whenever I feel myself getting, oh yeah, I'll go and do
that. And oh, yeah, I'll give you half
a day or a day or yeah. That 30-minute conversations
become a three-hour conversation like hang on a minute.
What, why am I doing that? Am I being useful?
What's getting fed at this point in me?
Am I where what's feeling undernourished?
Am I thinking that? I'm doing this because there'll
be A trade-off later on which is which might well be the case, or
is it because I'm not feeling that.
My paid employment is giving me the opportunity to do that in
which case I need to look at whether the needs to be a change
in what I'm doing or is there something else at play?
Am I in the right role? Do I need to think about my role
you know? So I think when you don't
question what's going on, you're in difficult territory because
you're not really very self-aware.
And I think if Asking questions about it.
You stand a better chance to be able to go hold on a minute.
I've this month I've given away this many hours for free.
What's gone on there? Why have I done that?
What have I if I analyze that what that transaction of time
and energy? What have I got out of that.
Hang on a minute. We'll what I've got out of it is
okay not a lot this month but the next month might be really
different but also I might have been paid for a certain
percentage of that. And it I think the comes a
Tipping Point where you say I am I'm my own person.
I might not employment, might not be the best way for me.
And actually, I can, I'm in such position that I feel like I can
get paid for my time under my own umbrella because I've got
that range of skills and expertise or actually I need to
look at my current job description and reassess that
and think about is, am I actually doing my job
description or am? I acting outside of that and do
we need to have a conversation about that.
So I think it's about having that level of interaction.
Wellness. And but also, starting to shape.
What is it that you want out of your job and is your job, just a
job? Or is it a career in a vocation
and a way of being? Because then, you can start to
think very practically and realistically about those
boundaries and how you manage them.
I'm just looking at my notes because I wrote down the
percentage of can't find it. Now of people in the music
industry who consider themselves Freelancers and it's a majority.
So I think what you're saying is really important.
Particularly in the music industry because there are so
many Freelancers. And especially for women who
maybe don't always have the confidence to stand up and sit,
because I think what you're saying is really interesting
that it's about reflecting and asking those questions of
yourself. Like, if I'm giving away free
time, how often am I doing that? And why am I doing it?
And is it bringing me rewards? Sometimes they can be indirect
or direct and we all do it. It's not a case of never doing
anything, it's just being conscious and aware.
And when you ask the question, why if the true answer is
because I don't feel brave enough to say actually it costs
this much for me to do that in this time or maybe you've had an
experience where you've asked. So you said yeah I'll do that it
cost this much and they said oh we know no actually it's fine.
Actually we've got full schedule we don't need you.
Yeah exactly. And so then you're like oh no I
won't. I'll do you know what I mean?
So then that can kind of maybe knock your confidence a little A
bit about asking and I think it kind of comes back to what we
were saying earlier about knowing your expertise, knowing
your cell, understanding the value that you bring and having
the kind of confidence and boundaries to say.
This is how much it costs and to be in a position.
I think this is something I'm also always working on and it
kind of it's not a linear process.
I didn't just wake up one day and start charging people for my
time. Shops open.
Yeah, exactly. But I definitely I think in some
ways I've been at the advantage of training as a lawyer and when
you work in a law firm, you measure your time in seven
minute periods and you charge for every seven minutes and it's
brutal. So that made me very aware of
how I'm using my time and how much my time is worth.
And although I do something completely different really
day-to-day now, but I do, I do offer, legal advice.
Vice and I'm, I am a consultant. I work for help musicians as a
business advisor, things like that and that is me giving my
advice and I'm at a point now where I don't actually need to
prepare for most of those things because it's all in my in my
brain, and I talk about it all the time.
So it's like off the tongue but I spent years training, I've
been doing this for a decade like it's not that you're just
being paid for your time. You're being paid for all of
your time up to that point. That puts you in a position to
be able to answer that question easily.
Hmm. If someone has one copyright
question for me, you're not really charging them for that
one copyright question. The time it takes me to answer
five minutes. It's that I have the expertise
to give you a comprehensive answer to that very difficult
question. You always complex or whatever
and and therefore it's that takes my time and it's valuable
but I do think that something that especially as women I know
from speaking to other women in the music industry and in fact
all the industry is not working. It's the same thing in Academia
in In law that we as women can all be better.
I think because there's two things, isn't there.
There's the from our side reframing thinking about our
worth and our expertise and that that has value, and we should
charge for it. And that's something as women we
can do better but also the industry needs to meet us
halfway and not expect women to work for free.
Oh absolutely. And I was thinking as you were
talking there about that accumulated, knowledge and skill
set, you know, it's not as you say, it's not something you wake
up. Good morning.
God, I know so much about this. I think about the amount of
hours, I spoke to Employers in terms of music, therapy and
music therapists, and understanding the nuances of
that, and these painstaking conversations.
Worked tell me what they said and why did they say that?
And how will you think about what does your practice look
like? And what does that look like in
this context? And, you know, and that, you
know, you absorb all of that and you go away and the thinking
doesn't just happen in the moment.
That's the other thing, you know, with this kind of work
it's very hard to switch off. Off and I would love an off
switch. If someone can give me an off
switch for a present, I would love it because it doesn't
happen very often. You know, it's like okay so you
know it's 8:00. Why am I still thinking about
that question? They asked me and and I know I'm
not the only person does that so many people do it but when
you're of the kind of people that I think we are where, you
know, you are stimulated by something and you're constantly
trying to find the answer and think about the yyyy it, you
know? No, you're not, you know, you
don't just think in your paid hours, you know, it's in an oven
around you all the time. And so, you know, when you then
come to put a price to that to that fee That is built into it
some way because it's not just oh, well, I'll turn up and I'll
be there between nine and one will know because you'll have
probably done two hours prep. You'll do another hours debrief
in your mind at some point. So, actually you're looking at a
full day's worth of work, merely not just a four-hour session.
And and I think it's about that honesty and, you know, 99% of
people aren't there to rip people off that they're just
saying look, I've I do have these skills.
I'd like to be fairly are enumerated.
David for that and I think that's a reasonable request but
that can still feel like, quite a bold bold, ask, and I think
that's where the collaboration. And the Collegiate feeling is
really important. Where, you know, you can endorse
each other's work, you can support each other's work as
they do, you know, actually, you're going to get really great
value by working with her. You know, you might need X
number of sessions, and should be able to help you in these
kinds of ways. But that kind of Endorsement of
each other. I think helps to strengthen the
presentation of what the female element can bring to the to the
music industry, you know? So that we're supporting one
another in that very collaborative.
Advocate like way. We all need people alongside us
and I think if we can't, if women can't do that for
themselves and for each other, then that's the Sorry State of
Affairs. So I would always, you know,
want to be saying, well actually yeah if you work with Haley,
you're going to, you know, no doubt, safe hands, you know?
Don't don't even question that, you know, really, really good
hands and and likewise I would, you know, you have to prove your
worth but you know, you'd want to know that there are champions
out there for you. And I think I think that's one
thing we can do to overcome some of those kinds of challenges is
is Beach. Others Advocates really?
Yeah, well that is exactly what I was going to ask you.
Okay, so we've acknowledged that this is something that we can
all work on and how do we do that?
And I think Community is so important also for moving.
The needle on Norms, one thing I found is that we have these
conversations and it's really important to have these
conversations in the community of people that you're working
with and to talk about money. Hmm.
How much did you get? Paid for that session because I
think I'm charging too much or too little.
I don't know. How do you know what the going
rate is? And it's the same for a session
musician or a vocalist who comes in Does a day's work.
Like you said, she can do it in one take, but that's because
she's practiced every day for 10 years, not because it took her
10 minutes in the movement, and there's a lot of variables
around, what, how you value something?
Yep, is the physical time it takes, but also the skill, the
person, the project, the budget, there's lots of things, but I
think it's really important as women to talk and to light said
advocate for each other thing, that's really important.
And also to share to knowledge exchange and the absolutely That
for me, I know it's scary and I know asking for more asking for
money is can be uncomfortable. But one thing that really
motivates me, I read once about the number of times to do with
the pay Gap that when a typically, when a man is offered
a job, he also always negotiates the pay and women typically
never do. And so now guarantee if I get a
job and negotiate the pay, and it's so uncomfortable, and I
hate it, I don't do it for me. I do it for all the other women.
I'm not trying to be a hero. Hero.
I'm trying to make myself feel better about making a change.
That's like I'm not doing it just from obviously I benefit
because I get paid more. Yeah, I get paid for my time but
also to think about it, if you are struggling with that
narrative to think about it, on a bigger scale of Mike, if this
is the going rate and I push that rate for women doing this
job and I tell other women, this is how much I'm getting paid for
this. I'm helping my community as well
as myself. Absolutely.
And I And he found that in music therapy within the freelance
world of music therapy where you know like in the in the wider
music industry. Lots of people have portfolio
careers and the music therapist would say, oh no, you know, I
don't think I can charge possibly more than 35 pounds.
Now, we'll hang on it. Whoa, whoa, hang on.
What's the context you're working in?
Are you working for? Are you low coming for the NHS?
Are you, is it? Private practice.
Is it a family? What's, you know, where are
they? They are like, what is the
picture here? That you're looking at
financially, but that's one way of thinking about it.
But what does it cost you to do this?
And the amount of practitioners who hadn't thought about what
their expenses were to, just be in the room.
And I thought, gosh, this is where the Crossovers must
happen. More, we must educate more.
We must support. And I certainly found when I did
my master's. As I was saying to you, that we
were told were it's not our job to I knew how to be Freelancers
and it's not about being a freelancer.
It's about the sustainability the profession, if we're running
rate down into the ground, then you're going to end up with a
profession that can't afford to work and then we won't have any
music therapists. Meanwhile speech and language
therapists have no qualms about asking for a 3 figure, some to
do an assessment was a music therapist, might say what at no
charge, you know, 120 quid for an assessment with a report, you
know. And that's proper clinical.
Nicole time, but speech and language therapist, don't even
blink or a physiotherapist or an occupational therapist because
they are. So positioned within society
that we don't question the value that they bring and that's
really, it comes back to what is value and what is it that we
bring? And so I think there is a piece
of work to be done, whether it's performers, whether it's
producers music therapist, whoever it might be of helping
people articulate their worth, and I think that starts right
now, really, I think we Have to support each other.
In doing that and say, you know, AI.
I feel really uncomfortable and talking about the value and what
my value is and how I grow my value and and be making sure
that we're doing that for each other.
So I think I think there's I think there's a real piece of
work that we can all collectively be involved in and
supporting that and I think as you were just saying there in
terms of yes of course you stand benefit but there is a bigger
Sure thing. And I, and I would really Echo
that in the way that I would talk with music therapist,
through some music therapist, who were coming to the career,
maybe second or third career in and they were saying, well, the
kite. No, I don't, I don't really need
to charge to do this work and I said, well, that's a wonderful
gift that you have but actually by not charging or charging and
a tiny nominal fee you are underwriting the the whole
profession and so your drive a leaving it yeah it is valuing it
completely which means that the The young, you know, 28 year old
who's coming through, who for them, this is their first career
and they need to charge for all of their overheads and they need
to charge so that they can invest in their practice and
develop their business. They don't stand a chance of
being able to charge a certain amount per hour because you've
set a precedent, which is actually music therapy, doesn't
need a fee and, you know, then take that fee and do something
else with it, you know, charge for it.
But then invest, it sounds where put it Donate it to charity, do
whatever you want with it. Yeah, but do yourself a
volunteer, volunteer. You're right.
It's about that. Exactly.
It's like you, the value is not only a new, there's your values,
your inherent your value, and your skills and expertise.
And then there's the value in the thing that you do.
Whether that's playing an instrument, being a music
therapist, being a researcher alloy or whatever.
In anything that you do in the music industry, you're
representing. It goes kind of back to what we
were saying earlier about the planets in the universe.
Like you're The old world. And we are trying to raise the
value especially in music about the power of music and life
changing, what you're doing as a music therapist like what's the
value of the hat? Like if anything it should be
shooting up not being like you said underwritten or a devalued
where people feel either that they're in a position that they
don't need to charge that much or they don't feel that they
can, maybe it's a confidence thing, or it could be Not even
on that person. It could be like we said the
expectation of the person hiring.
Yeah, exactly. It's an edge.
I really believe it's an education piece because it comes
back to the sort of central tenant of the power.
Me that report is the value of Music.
How do we talk about the value of music?
So that we don't have musicians and music therapist, going into
Care Homes and the Cairo manager says I haven't got any budget
for that but can you just come in four days a month for
nothing? And what you magic?
Well no. Yeah, I might I might come in
and do a taster session for you. I'm still going to charge you
expenses for that. It's not going to be completely
free, but I can give you a flavor of what I offer.
And then we can have a negotiated discussion if you
like about that. And I've always talked about a
sliding scale, you know, again, it's what, what is your need to
Value, all of those kind of ratios and if you're not very
comfortable, then having that in your back pocket, which is well,
actually I feel as though I'm Owing to an organization or a
company that could afford this then.
Actually, I will charge that. But actually, if I'm working
with a family that is really struggling financially,
emotionally socially the whole round.
Well, I probably might not charge them my full hourly rate,
but I'll be able to give them some kind of discount.
I mean, that's very standard practice across the therapeutic
board. Anyway, but you know, it's
having that is having that ability to play with your range
and I think that you get into difficult Is when you can't
either expand or narrow, you know, if you're just stuck
because of whatever it might be, it might be fear of saying, well
actually I'm probably worth X percentage more or do you know,
I could probably afford to charge less here, but I know
that quite rightly I can charge more over there, so, you know,
I'm not going to be done out of anything and I'm not doing any
profession down, but I'm being fair.
Yeah. And I think it's the same for me
in my experience. It's the same thing.
If I'm giving advice to two solo artist up and coming and not
actually gotten any income whatsoever because I don't even
know what a collecting Society is.
Obviously, I charge a different rate than if I'm doing a record
deal for a major label and I think that's just about being
reasonable. But, and Savvy and comes back to
what you said before about asking yourself, these questions
of like how much my charging what is this worth?
And the context of the work that you're doing?
Who am I working with? What is their context?
And what's not? But not to drive you, you've got
to keep yourself afloat. So if you have, for instance,
doing a lot of work for low income families that then you
are not able to keep up your own profession, then you're not
helping anyone, it's that whole thing of put your mask on first
before you put on the other person's mask.
And I've honestly spoken to women who told me that for
years, that that triggered her. She's like that annoyed me.
Of course, you put the mask on the child first and I was like,
just, you understand that? The reason is because otherwise
if you pass, Out, you can't help anyone.
Hmm, and she's like, oh yeah and I just think we have to keep
that in mind and it goes back to what was saying earlier about
boundaries and usefulness. Is that like you are only
useful? If, as long as you have energy,
if you've depleted yourself to help everybody else and you're
not looking after yourself and you're not taking care of
yourself. You can't help anyone if you're
in bed. No, no.
And I think holding back a little bit to remain.
Jenna more generous is really important.
I have been given so Many gifts over the years in all kinds of
ways, whether it's a conversation which has stopped
me in my tracks and made me think twice about the next step
or whether it's a musical instrument that I've been loaned
or, or an opportunity to meet with somebody or an opening,
whatever it might be recording in every register recording and
everywhere Studios. I mean, how many people do that
on a Saturday morning? Those get those gifts are things
that help top you up. And put what I would call
credits back in the bank, not necessarily in a financial
sense, but they give you the impetus and the energy and the
inspiration and the Sparks to keep going.
And they're really, really valuable, but it's banking them
in such a way that you can then share that around because
actually a lot of this world exists on that generosity and
those connections and that gift-giving.
And I think that sometimes those kinds of Generous gifts, can be
more valuable than a pay rise because actually, it gives way
to Greater more meaningful experiences.
So I always think that there's something about holding back
some generosity and knowing when to deploy that generosity so
that others stand a chance to develop and grow too.
And I think what comes around goes around.
So do you know? And I know do genuinely believe
that I've had enough, lovely experiences like that, like
that. Now, that I have faith in that,
and I feel that, that is, that's the gift of music.
You know, I've got an amazing experience of that.
Actually, I was given was loaned a contrabassoon.
So double pursuing these instruments of pretty rare,
they're very pricey, I was loaned.
One by a gentleman, whose daughter knew my mum and he
played the bassoon for years for the Royal Opera House years and
years and years and years. And I was fortunate After have
this friendship, he much much, or he's now in his 90s is a
fabulous musician. Amazing tales of all the music
that he's made in his life. And he couldn't, he can play his
bassoon, sadly, any longer his controversial because he was
going deaf, and he wasn't playing professionally, and he
was in his 70s and he said, look, can you just play it for
me? I just need the instrument
played, its was built to be made, it was built to be played,
and I will get so much joy knowing that your or playing it.
And and I said, well, you sure about this, you know, this is a
very expensive instrument. Yeah, you know that it's yours.
He said honestly, I've had gifts in my time and this is my gift
to you. Just go out and play it and that
will be enough of a gift to me. And so, you know, we've kept in
touch over the years, 20 years of swung by, and then I did a
concert pre-pandemic. And I would always email and
say, look, I'm doing concert if you're free come along.
And he came to this concert and I popped to see him in the
audience during the interview and he said, look this isn't Up
For Debate or discussion but it's yours.
I said what's mine? He said the Contra, it's yours I
don't want anything for. I just want to know that you
will have a lifetime of love and enjoyment with it.
You'll go and play lots of concerts you'll go and make
people smile because it's always funny when a woman, turns out
without your position, then honks out these big noise, big
notes and noises Has. He said, I just want you to do
that because all I ever wanted to know was that this instrument
would have a life and be played. And I was obviously, in floods
of tears. That are you sure?
You sure. It's it.
He said, look, I'm walking away. Now I'm going to listen to the
rest of the concert. I don't want to know, just play
just play. And honestly I've had some of
the best experiences with that instrument Maze and the people
I've met and the music that's been made.
And I think that those kinds of generous moments, Give you
enough to then say I can be generous at other times and it,
you know, that's my one of my experiences of it other people's
will look and feel very different, but it it's what you
have in the bank to say, you know, I have got that 20 minutes
to have that quick call or I can see that person needs a little
helping hand. I've got enough space this month
to need to have that conversation.
Or actually, I just need to sign.
Post them over to Hayley, or whatever it might be, you know.
And I think that, Whether it's a big moment like that of
generosity or whether it's little moments, note them,
because actually, you need to give them back to somebody else
or pass them on later on down the line.
Yeah, and I think it ties in really nicely what you were
saying earlier about advocating for each other because it can
also be, you know, someone advocated for me and gave me
this opportunity and I can't wait for the opportunity to do
that someone else because it feels so wonderful to just open
a door or mention, someone's name in a room and watch that.
Kind of happen. And actually that is so
rewarding. I love it.
If that's ever happened and you just feel like you played a part
in that by putting two people and touch and then they've done
something amazing together or, yeah, you know, recommending
someone like you said advocating for each other.
And I think what you're saying about banking.
The generosity is really important and having that
balance with good boundaries, knowing yourself worth all of
that. But also knowing that as we were
saying the music industry is people industry and it's about
connecting with people and sometimes someone will be a
champion for you and you will be a champion for other people.
Absolutely. And I think the other thing is
that it helps with boundaries in a sort of slightly weird way
because there is and I think we might have the same personality
trait to be everything to everyone and do everything and,
you know, just to the time. And actually, when you can say,
do you know what? I'm going to get more pleasure
from putting those two people in touch because actually together,
they'll be great. They'll make good things happen.
Then in the satisfaction of knowing, well, I connected them
and watching that relationship. Now, flourish and that turned
into this action is really rewarding and I think that is a
way of putting some kind of boundaries in because we it's
exciting this work, it's really thrilling.
And when you know you're making a difference and making change
happen that can be such a motivator that it can also
deplete you senselessly because you just keep going, keep going,
keep going. Because actually if you say you
know, it It's really exciting to spark that over there and then
spark that and you can step back
and go. Well, actually I've just spotted
a need over here. I'm going to go and be useful
over there. Yeah.
And do that then actually that I think that's another way of
helping manage boundaries that you don't feel, you have to do
everything. And and you can let go of some
stuff and be like, you know, I had a hand in that but I've
stepped away from that. Now that's that's I've done my
bit. Can you tell us what your
favorite? female artist is maybe like the
reason I put it the question into it's like, of all time.
So it's looking like of of the bit, the big, you've got to
think of someone like, you know, everybody probably knows.
I don't know. And then also, maybe like a
current just to just to prove that there are women out there
doing it if nothing else. Well, I've got a slightly
oblique answer to the first question, which is all of those
female composers back in the day.
Whether it was the 1600s, the 1800s, the 1900, who were women,
who couldn't pass their work off as their own, and we might not
know their names, but actually their husbands claimed their
work. Where were the rights then?
Yeah, you know, and that's so many talented.
Women were composing amazing music and that music couldn't be
there. As it couldn't be known to be,
there's no but they paved the way for so many other people to
shine and we can't acknowledge a lot of those women, but they
were absolutely fundamental in the progressions of movements of
the progressions of artists of composers.
And they don't get the recognition anywhere near as
much as they should do. And I know there were experts
out there who know tons about this, but it's those unsung
women as is often the case in so many walks of life.
Hmm, that don't get the recognition that they deserve,
so that would be my kind of, I think that's a perfect, perfect
answer for that. And I think it's again,
something that is it is getting better, but actually still exist
in some way. It's definitely better than it
was with seeing progression. Improvement, but it's, that is
actually still a challenge. So I think that's a really
great, a really great answer and to acknowledge that.
That is something that is better but is still there.
And that's something we actually need to continue to shine a
light on the female artists songwriters composers and give
them the do kind of credit respect that they deserve and
visibility which is you know the whole point in the A little bit.
Yeah, so great answer and your you have a current answer.
Yeah, again, maybe possibly a bit left field but Marin alsop.
The famous female conductor who has conducted in the UK and most
famously in America. It is terrifying standing in
front of a full Symphony, Orchestra, all of those people
looking at you for your interpretation, for your command
and for you to have to know every detail of that piece of
music, If every part you need to know that music better than the
players because you need to be drawing out of them, the magic.
And you need to get that group of people working together and
you need to be in full control at all times.
But also know when you can stop and give them the space to be
what they need to be, which is a group of musicians, making music
and I think she's really inspirational.
Because conducting is predominantly a male.
I mean, she's a Trailblazer really, there's hardly any
female conductors, especially on that kind of Of scale.
No, indeed. Exactly.
And I have such admiration for her because she's been so dogged
in her career and and produced incredible works.
But that that moment where you're standing there with a
baton you're looking at this, Orchestra it could go many
different ways. As I, it's terrifying, and
you've got a thousand people behind you and you've got a
hundred people in front of you. And interestingly, you don't
make a noise. You just visual yeah, your
visual there you commanding, but that music is running through
your brain and everything your body.
Yeah. Of your body.
Yeah. And to be able to command that
and control and conduct. But then, you know, we go back
to an earlier Point. Think about the life skills in
that. Think about the leadership, the
ability to see it scale to be able to see in detail to be able
to bring Parts together, to be able to put things to the back,
bring something to the for, you know, to be able to blend colors
and tones. And Tom Brady's.
And you know, that's, that's amazing leadership.
So, as another really solid answer.
Thank you so much grace, but it's been so lovely to have you.
And I honestly wish we did have more time because it has more
questions, but maybe maybe we'll do it another time.
Thanks so much for coming to a beer 8:00 on a Saturday.
So much a really good conversation.
I really loved it. Thank you.
Thanks for listening.
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