1 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:09,600 Anyway, anyway. Hello and welcome to Whose Song 2 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,720 Is It Anyway? I'm Dr. Haley Brochure, and for 3 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,520 this special season of the podcast focusing on women in the 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:17,760 music industry, I'll be your host. 5 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:24,080 Welcome, diver and thank you so much for being on the podcast. 6 00:00:24,080 --> 00:00:27,280 I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me today. 7 00:00:27,890 --> 00:00:31,090 Can you please introduce yourself and tell the listeners 8 00:00:31,170 --> 00:00:33,450 who you are and what you do in the music industry? 9 00:00:33,730 --> 00:00:36,250 Thanks so much for having me. My name's Diva. 10 00:00:36,250 --> 00:00:42,490 I am a musician all around, creative activists working in 11 00:00:42,730 --> 00:00:45,810 various different facets within the queer community and beyond. 12 00:00:46,370 --> 00:00:50,610 I am currently working on an album, my first ever album, and 13 00:00:50,930 --> 00:00:54,450 sort of like spending my time in lots of conversations with 14 00:00:54,450 --> 00:00:57,910 people in the community. With marginalized groups and 15 00:00:58,070 --> 00:01:02,830 hoping to somehow put those conversations and those stories 16 00:01:02,910 --> 00:01:07,670 at the forefront of my work. And so the music and all other 17 00:01:07,670 --> 00:01:12,110 projects thereof sort of really are connected to propping up 18 00:01:12,110 --> 00:01:16,270 voices that are underrepresented across the board in a nutshell. 19 00:01:16,350 --> 00:01:18,750 I love it. This sounds this sounds magical. 20 00:01:19,650 --> 00:01:23,410 So, and I love that it's you call yourself an activist and 21 00:01:23,410 --> 00:01:26,290 you do this work and then also you're a creator. 22 00:01:26,330 --> 00:01:29,490 And all these things are obviously so intertwined. 23 00:01:29,770 --> 00:01:32,250 So do you want to share a bit more about the kind of activism 24 00:01:32,250 --> 00:01:37,170 that you've been doing? Yeah, I don't know if I coined 25 00:01:37,170 --> 00:01:40,410 this term, but I've recently been referring to myself as more 26 00:01:40,410 --> 00:01:45,930 active than Nest, which is that I sort of, I suppose my brand of 27 00:01:45,930 --> 00:01:49,780 activism is more to do with. Community related projects and 28 00:01:49,780 --> 00:01:53,060 creating ways for communities to thrive. 29 00:01:53,260 --> 00:01:58,380 And so I would say probably the most notable iteration of that 30 00:01:58,500 --> 00:02:01,700 has been through a project that I launched at the start of last 31 00:02:01,700 --> 00:02:05,140 year called Sounds Queer, which is basically a live music. 32 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,000 Queer safe space. So a kind of fairly new idea, 33 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,080 which is quite strange to think about, that there's there's a 34 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:16,880 platform available to grassroots artists who are queer who don't 35 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:21,080 have a space to play to an audience of their peers and in a 36 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,640 Safeway. And so we've kind of worked to 37 00:02:23,640 --> 00:02:27,760 create that platform for them kind of in response to. 38 00:02:28,090 --> 00:02:33,250 Actually, how difficult it is to arrive as a queer artist when 39 00:02:33,250 --> 00:02:37,170 there have been so many other difficulties in your journey to 40 00:02:37,170 --> 00:02:40,170 do with how quickly you've come into yourself, how quickly 41 00:02:40,170 --> 00:02:42,050 you've come to your understanding of who you are 42 00:02:42,050 --> 00:02:46,050 just as a person, even before you are as an artist. 43 00:02:46,050 --> 00:02:50,410 And so it's been that has been such a big primary focus for me 44 00:02:50,410 --> 00:02:52,770 over the last year, a year and a bit and so. 45 00:02:53,340 --> 00:02:56,140 That's that's kind of a good, I think, example of the kind of 46 00:02:56,140 --> 00:02:59,020 stuff that I'm doing where it's more about like creating things 47 00:02:59,020 --> 00:03:02,780 within the community that are hopefully creating a sense of 48 00:03:02,780 --> 00:03:07,620 confidence and ownership and inciting a bit of energy around 49 00:03:07,660 --> 00:03:09,500 this. This idea of, you know, we 50 00:03:09,500 --> 00:03:11,620 should be seeing more presentation, we should be 51 00:03:11,620 --> 00:03:14,860 seeing more of these these people in these places and why 52 00:03:14,860 --> 00:03:19,580 don't these places actually have more space available for people 53 00:03:19,580 --> 00:03:22,460 like me and people like so many other people that I work with as 54 00:03:22,460 --> 00:03:25,260 well. And you know that's that sort of 55 00:03:25,260 --> 00:03:27,980 ethos is kind of recycled into a number of different projects 56 00:03:27,980 --> 00:03:31,700 either at small scale with with sort of the local community that 57 00:03:31,700 --> 00:03:35,140 I have here in North London sort of like putting together small 58 00:03:35,140 --> 00:03:38,900 festivals and things like this. And then also actually sort of 59 00:03:38,900 --> 00:03:42,100 taking the ethos of things like sounds quit into more 60 00:03:42,380 --> 00:03:47,900 discussions at industry level. About how to create better and 61 00:03:47,900 --> 00:03:51,700 more diverse representation of the queer community in music 62 00:03:51,700 --> 00:03:53,820 across the board. So that's things like panel 63 00:03:53,820 --> 00:03:58,660 discussions and working with musical bodies to create that 64 00:03:58,660 --> 00:04:01,300 platform. And so I'd say kind of, yeah, 65 00:04:01,300 --> 00:04:04,740 the the platforms themselves end up feeding more into that sort 66 00:04:04,740 --> 00:04:06,780 of how do we, how do we lobby for these things for our 67 00:04:06,780 --> 00:04:08,590 community? Wonderful. 68 00:04:08,590 --> 00:04:13,630 There's so much to unpack there. And so and obviously we are 69 00:04:13,910 --> 00:04:16,750 aligned in our agendas with having these conversations and 70 00:04:16,750 --> 00:04:21,790 trying to both create community and inclusive safe space for 71 00:04:21,790 --> 00:04:26,710 everyone and also to drive that conversation towards policy 72 00:04:26,710 --> 00:04:30,070 based decisions whether that's in government or in decision 73 00:04:30,070 --> 00:04:33,740 making. Rooms of the music industry 74 00:04:33,740 --> 00:04:38,420 people, for instance, you know, deciding lineups or that kind of 75 00:04:38,420 --> 00:04:42,500 angle or even like, you know, as you're saying creating that safe 76 00:04:42,500 --> 00:04:45,060 space. So I'm going to go back to 77 00:04:45,060 --> 00:04:48,580 something you said earlier because I read a quote earlier 78 00:04:48,580 --> 00:04:56,260 about the perception of the lack of inclusivity in the music 79 00:04:56,260 --> 00:04:58,020 industry. And I'm not going to remember 80 00:04:58,020 --> 00:05:00,580 the quote exactly, but I do remember part of the. 81 00:05:01,470 --> 00:05:04,630 The numbers. So it was something like an 82 00:05:04,710 --> 00:05:08,390 obviously very high percentage of women and non binary 83 00:05:08,390 --> 00:05:13,390 individuals in the music industry perceived that there 84 00:05:13,390 --> 00:05:18,310 was a lack of inclusivity in the music industry, whereas a much 85 00:05:18,310 --> 00:05:22,870 lower percentage of men understood that lack of 86 00:05:23,430 --> 00:05:26,350 inclusivity. So with that in mind. 87 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,280 I was wondering if you could just first, and it might seem 88 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:32,760 like you're saying something obvious, but let's think that 89 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,480 we're talking to those 37% for a minute. 90 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:40,080 Why do we need that, the safe space that you mentioned that 91 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:41,680 you're creating in that community? 92 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,400 And basically what was the motivation for you and the drive 93 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:48,480 behind doing that work? Yeah, actually interestingly 94 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,160 that crate there and that statistic is almost. 95 00:05:52,670 --> 00:05:56,950 Entirely the impetus, because actually I think it's this sense 96 00:05:56,990 --> 00:06:01,230 of to the demographic that is more widely represented in the 97 00:06:01,230 --> 00:06:03,350 music industry and every industry. 98 00:06:03,350 --> 00:06:06,870 But in specific for this conversation in the music 99 00:06:06,870 --> 00:06:11,390 industry, there is an issue of invisibility of the issue. 100 00:06:11,590 --> 00:06:15,310 And basically because there is an issue of invisibility i.e., 101 00:06:15,310 --> 00:06:19,670 the people who are more broadly represented, they don't tend to 102 00:06:19,670 --> 00:06:22,230 see that there is a problem of representation. 103 00:06:22,650 --> 00:06:26,010 What they see is actually, I'll give you an example, So I was 104 00:06:26,010 --> 00:06:29,250 living in Belfast, actually just before the pandemic that won't 105 00:06:29,250 --> 00:06:32,730 be named. And I'd been there for a couple 106 00:06:32,730 --> 00:06:37,370 of months and I think in one week I'd been to four or five 107 00:06:37,370 --> 00:06:41,930 showcases just to sort of get a sense of the musical world, the 108 00:06:41,930 --> 00:06:45,190 musical landscape. And bearing in mind that I 109 00:06:45,190 --> 00:06:48,870 already knew a number of queer artists, a number of female 110 00:06:48,870 --> 00:06:52,270 artists, a number of trans artists living and working in 111 00:06:52,270 --> 00:06:56,470 Belfast, and every single showcase that I went to was 112 00:06:56,470 --> 00:07:00,510 entirely straight white men. And at one point I think I just 113 00:07:00,510 --> 00:07:04,070 got a little bit frustrated and I spoke to the the person 114 00:07:04,070 --> 00:07:06,030 promoting the show. The next day we had a we had a 115 00:07:06,030 --> 00:07:07,950 quick catch up and a coffee and I said you know. 116 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,880 It's really strange to me that I'm not seeing very diverse 117 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,720 lineups on on the showcases and I'm just wondering why that is, 118 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,280 because everyone seems quite ready to have that and I don't 119 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:19,920 really understand why it's not there. 120 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:25,160 And his response was so telling because from his perspective he 121 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:29,040 he all he said was, you know, I want to book more women, I want 122 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,480 to book more trans and queer artists, but they're not at the 123 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,280 level that we want them to be for this showcase. 124 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,120 And so when they're ready, we'll put them into the showcases. 125 00:07:38,430 --> 00:07:42,030 And I got so upset in that conversation because I was like, 126 00:07:42,030 --> 00:07:44,710 do you not understand though that this is cyclical now? 127 00:07:44,950 --> 00:07:46,950 Because what you're saying is you're not going to give them a 128 00:07:46,950 --> 00:07:49,550 stage to cut their teeth and get good. 129 00:07:49,950 --> 00:07:52,710 And that means that that community and are never going to 130 00:07:52,710 --> 00:07:55,030 get a look in and never going to get the option. 131 00:07:55,310 --> 00:07:58,390 What they need is a way to cut their teeth and actually, you 132 00:07:58,390 --> 00:08:01,190 know, hone in on what what it is that they're wanting to be as an 133 00:08:01,190 --> 00:08:03,110 artist and get good at performing. 134 00:08:03,510 --> 00:08:07,400 And I think. We see some representation of 135 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,800 marginalized communities at the top end where we see women and 136 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,280 queer people and we think, oh great, cool, we're in a better 137 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,680 situation. And those artists, absolutely 138 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,080 amazing and so incredibly important to the whole journey, 139 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:26,080 but they they represent a very minute percentage of how many 140 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,440 queer. Artists and female artists there 141 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,680 are actually working right now. And the problem that we've got 142 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,840 is this big, big swath of people in the middle that is still 143 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,440 predominantly represented by straight, white men. 144 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:43,280 And so this platform, the reason why these safe spaces exist, and 145 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:46,440 I suppose that they're safe spaces for a number of different 146 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,240 reasons. Safe in that. 147 00:08:49,100 --> 00:08:50,900 Yes. You're performing to a community 148 00:08:50,940 --> 00:08:54,820 who you are certain are coming from the same headspace as you 149 00:08:54,820 --> 00:08:57,220 and so that you can be yourself and you don't have to worry 150 00:08:57,220 --> 00:09:00,340 about I'm playing in this pub venue and I'm worried that if 151 00:09:00,340 --> 00:09:03,460 I'm a bit too camp or if I'm a bit too over the top that I'm 152 00:09:03,460 --> 00:09:08,420 somehow going to be, you know, honed in on and and separated. 153 00:09:08,740 --> 00:09:10,780 So there's that worry. So it's safe from that 154 00:09:10,780 --> 00:09:14,580 perspective, but it's also safe in the perspective of I can come 155 00:09:14,660 --> 00:09:17,860 in here as an artist in progress. 156 00:09:18,330 --> 00:09:22,050 And work towards creating something that I'm truly happy 157 00:09:22,050 --> 00:09:25,370 with and having that ability to actually, you know spend some 158 00:09:25,370 --> 00:09:27,970 time working at it. Because I'd say if all the 159 00:09:27,970 --> 00:09:32,330 privileges that you know the kind of the straight male 160 00:09:32,330 --> 00:09:37,370 artists have, the main advantage is the one of being able to work 161 00:09:37,370 --> 00:09:40,170 at it. Like people will take it as 162 00:09:40,170 --> 00:09:42,330 where the Oh yeah, you're just working at something. 163 00:09:42,650 --> 00:09:44,650 You know you'll go and play all these shows and you'll get 164 00:09:44,650 --> 00:09:47,610 you'll get good over time and it feels like something that's. 165 00:09:48,220 --> 00:09:52,900 Strangely, so unavailable to communities like the queer 166 00:09:52,900 --> 00:09:56,260 community and female artists in so many ways. 167 00:09:56,620 --> 00:09:59,260 And so I suppose these platforms are really important because 168 00:09:59,260 --> 00:10:03,620 they're creating a way for these communities to come and actually 169 00:10:03,660 --> 00:10:07,460 have that same process while we're in a position where it's 170 00:10:07,460 --> 00:10:12,090 still I think. By and large, midranged venues, 171 00:10:12,290 --> 00:10:16,690 promoters that work within those venues, festival stages, all of 172 00:10:16,690 --> 00:10:20,450 these sorts of things. They're still by and large under 173 00:10:20,450 --> 00:10:25,450 representing the diversity of live music and gist of music in 174 00:10:25,450 --> 00:10:27,610 general, you know. Absolutely. 175 00:10:27,610 --> 00:10:30,610 I mean, we see it across the board like you said in festival 176 00:10:30,610 --> 00:10:37,210 lineups for 2022 was like 11%. Female and there wasn't even a 177 00:10:37,210 --> 00:10:40,690 statistic about, you know, more diverse genders. 178 00:10:41,010 --> 00:10:44,690 It was just like even the women is like this much, let alone 179 00:10:44,690 --> 00:10:47,290 everybody else. And then you know the same when 180 00:10:47,290 --> 00:10:51,690 we look at catalogs of signed artists signed to major labels, 181 00:10:51,690 --> 00:10:57,330 like 20% women, obviously far fewer for other genders and 182 00:10:57,530 --> 00:10:59,930 queer people, there's not sometimes there's not even data 183 00:10:59,930 --> 00:11:05,010 on that because it's like so little and the. 184 00:11:06,370 --> 00:11:10,690 Like you said, it's so telling. When we see things like the 185 00:11:10,690 --> 00:11:13,930 award show categories and the festival lineups that's been in 186 00:11:13,930 --> 00:11:16,330 the news recently and people were like, oh why don't they 187 00:11:16,330 --> 00:11:18,290 just, you know, get a woman to do it. 188 00:11:18,290 --> 00:11:21,530 And then people's instant responses like well who would be 189 00:11:21,530 --> 00:11:23,730 that woman or who would be that queer person or who would be 190 00:11:23,730 --> 00:11:27,810 that non binary person. And it's that's not the issue. 191 00:11:27,930 --> 00:11:32,170 This is the symptom of A cause, which is exactly what you're 192 00:11:32,170 --> 00:11:35,380 saying the. These people aren't given the 193 00:11:35,420 --> 00:11:38,220 opportunity from day one. They're not given the funding. 194 00:11:38,660 --> 00:11:41,540 They're not given the chance to create an audience. 195 00:11:41,540 --> 00:11:43,900 You need to be in front of people in the 1st place like you 196 00:11:43,900 --> 00:11:48,300 said to practice and hone your craft and also to create those 197 00:11:48,300 --> 00:11:51,820 first initial fans and and people interested in in your 198 00:11:51,820 --> 00:11:54,500 music. And so I think what you're doing 199 00:11:54,500 --> 00:11:59,060 and what you're saying is just so profound and something that. 200 00:12:00,530 --> 00:12:04,010 People often miss is the issue here when we see that like I 201 00:12:04,010 --> 00:12:07,690 said from my perspective the things that that we see in the 202 00:12:07,690 --> 00:12:09,530 news is the symptom not the cause. 203 00:12:09,530 --> 00:12:12,090 It's not a case of like obviously they could just hire 204 00:12:12,090 --> 00:12:14,490 more women and hire more non binary people but it's a 205 00:12:14,490 --> 00:12:18,930 pipeline issue now that we're not funding and supporting 206 00:12:18,930 --> 00:12:23,290 people from the the ground up and I was just into. 207 00:12:25,150 --> 00:12:28,350 Vic Bain, who does the F list, and she was saying that she's 208 00:12:28,350 --> 00:12:29,910 been interviewing people as well. 209 00:12:29,910 --> 00:12:32,270 And she, and they've said they've had experiences of 210 00:12:33,710 --> 00:12:37,190 record labels saying like, oh, we'd love to sign you, but we 211 00:12:37,190 --> 00:12:40,070 already have a woman or we already have a queer person. 212 00:12:40,150 --> 00:12:42,670 It's like, it's not a token. It's not 1. 213 00:12:42,670 --> 00:12:45,990 Yeah, exactly. But this and this is the thing. 214 00:12:45,990 --> 00:12:48,750 Actually, you know, when we started sounds queer, we weren't 215 00:12:49,030 --> 00:12:51,750 hilariously. We weren't really thinking about 216 00:12:51,750 --> 00:12:54,710 it in such profound detail. We were just thinking. 217 00:12:55,260 --> 00:12:56,300 Oh, that's strange. What? 218 00:12:56,380 --> 00:12:59,380 In particular, I was thinking, oh, it would be really nice to 219 00:12:59,380 --> 00:13:01,220 work with the queer promoter, but where are they? 220 00:13:01,620 --> 00:13:07,060 And basically they, you know, at the, in terms of what I'm would 221 00:13:07,060 --> 00:13:09,380 want to be playing in front of that just didn't exist. 222 00:13:09,580 --> 00:13:11,460 And so we were like, well, let's just make it. 223 00:13:11,460 --> 00:13:14,340 We'll do a few showcases a year, no big deal, no problem. 224 00:13:14,660 --> 00:13:18,500 And what happened afterwards? I would say the profundity 225 00:13:18,540 --> 00:13:22,970 really comes from the response. That we've had from queer 226 00:13:22,970 --> 00:13:27,530 artists, other queer promoters around the UK, and from musical 227 00:13:27,530 --> 00:13:31,250 bodies saying, you know, this is actually a really important 228 00:13:31,250 --> 00:13:33,770 conversation. And what we've understood now is 229 00:13:33,770 --> 00:13:39,130 that actually it's so ginormous that actually it's kind of 230 00:13:39,410 --> 00:13:43,090 referencing really what the queer experience is and what the 231 00:13:43,090 --> 00:13:46,730 feminine experience is across the board, even before we even 232 00:13:46,730 --> 00:13:48,930 start thinking about the music industry. 233 00:13:49,340 --> 00:13:51,740 About because this, like you said, this pipeline issue 234 00:13:51,740 --> 00:13:57,300 because basically what we are suffering is a an illness of CIS 235 00:13:57,500 --> 00:14:02,540 male heteronormative neutrality where we say the neutral is to 236 00:14:02,540 --> 00:14:06,100 be straight and white and demand and everything else. 237 00:14:06,100 --> 00:14:10,420 Then by that yardstick is a token or is left or right or 238 00:14:10,420 --> 00:14:13,940 however you want to describe it. And that is, yes, it's echoed in 239 00:14:13,940 --> 00:14:17,300 the music industry of course because it's echoed everywhere. 240 00:14:17,790 --> 00:14:19,910 And so when we speak specifically about the music 241 00:14:19,910 --> 00:14:22,670 industry, it's just we, we are seeing our own brand of that 242 00:14:22,670 --> 00:14:28,230 same sis hat neutrality where we go cool, this is who we consider 243 00:14:28,230 --> 00:14:33,390 to be our baseline human being. And then there's everyone else, 244 00:14:33,910 --> 00:14:36,230 you know, their little niches and all of these things that 245 00:14:36,230 --> 00:14:39,470 we're supposed to, oh, we have to do a diversity thing now. 246 00:14:39,790 --> 00:14:42,470 And so we've got a quota that we're supposed to be hitting, 247 00:14:42,470 --> 00:14:44,830 which don't get me wrong, I think, you know, if you're going 248 00:14:44,830 --> 00:14:50,390 to start anywhere, start there. But ultimately, you know, yes, 249 00:14:50,390 --> 00:14:53,430 we're treating, we're treating a symptom but not the actual, not 250 00:14:53,430 --> 00:14:57,950 the actual issue which is I suppose trying to shift mindsets 251 00:14:57,950 --> 00:15:03,350 towards there being no neutral and ultimately there there is no 252 00:15:03,350 --> 00:15:05,190 normal. But that's a much bigger 253 00:15:05,190 --> 00:15:09,110 conversation, you know and a much harder one to answer as to 254 00:15:09,110 --> 00:15:12,430 how we dig ourselves back out of the whole that we've dug 255 00:15:12,430 --> 00:15:15,230 ourselves into. And so I think when it comes to. 256 00:15:15,900 --> 00:15:21,780 When it comes to platforms like like, you know, this podcast or 257 00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:25,140 anything else that's got sort of like bringing that conversation 258 00:15:25,140 --> 00:15:27,260 to the front, I think it's always going to be valuable. 259 00:15:27,260 --> 00:15:30,260 You know, sometimes it feels like such an uphill battle as 260 00:15:30,260 --> 00:15:33,580 well because, you know, actually, I would say probably 261 00:15:33,860 --> 00:15:37,420 women and queer people are underrepresented because 262 00:15:37,420 --> 00:15:40,820 actually they are challenged with identity crises a lot 263 00:15:40,820 --> 00:15:42,910 earlier. They are challenged with them 264 00:15:42,910 --> 00:15:45,230 for a lot longer. And you know, it's something we 265 00:15:45,230 --> 00:15:48,790 were doing a panel last year for a Wild Park festival. 266 00:15:48,990 --> 00:15:52,710 And you know, speaking with these people who had been in the 267 00:15:52,710 --> 00:15:55,990 music industry for a long time, we were actually discussing that 268 00:15:56,270 --> 00:15:59,990 the music industry is set up by kind of like definites. 269 00:16:00,150 --> 00:16:02,390 And so it goes, what is your brand? 270 00:16:02,390 --> 00:16:04,470 What is your USP like? Who are you Like? 271 00:16:04,470 --> 00:16:08,910 I need it in one sentence, like who are you and, you know, as 272 00:16:08,910 --> 00:16:12,060 queer people? As people from marginalized 273 00:16:12,060 --> 00:16:16,380 communities, actually that question is very difficult to 274 00:16:16,380 --> 00:16:20,580 answer for a really long time because you are late to the 275 00:16:20,580 --> 00:16:24,540 party on everything, you know, because you've had to come to 276 00:16:24,540 --> 00:16:25,940 it. You've had to come out and you 277 00:16:25,940 --> 00:16:27,500 had to figure out all of these things. 278 00:16:27,500 --> 00:16:30,740 And so that's represented in the work that you make, that sense 279 00:16:30,740 --> 00:16:33,620 of uncertainty, that sense of not knowing. 280 00:16:34,050 --> 00:16:36,810 And it takes a lot longer for you to get to that place. 281 00:16:36,890 --> 00:16:40,410 You know, I didn't come out till I was 25 and I I I didn't 282 00:16:40,410 --> 00:16:42,890 realize that I was non binary until I was like close to being 283 00:16:42,890 --> 00:16:46,130 30. And that can be, you know, 284 00:16:46,130 --> 00:16:48,610 that's a that's a tough pill to swallow at a time in your life 285 00:16:48,610 --> 00:16:50,730 when you feel like you're supposed to be kind of like 286 00:16:50,850 --> 00:16:54,810 hitting your stride, you know. And I suppose it's kind of like 287 00:16:55,650 --> 00:16:58,490 we're trying to sort of I suppose just extend the 288 00:16:58,490 --> 00:17:01,430 expectation. Of like actually, you can be in 289 00:17:01,430 --> 00:17:04,430 process, you can be in progress. And how do we then convince the 290 00:17:04,430 --> 00:17:08,750 music industry that this is not only OK, but actually something 291 00:17:08,750 --> 00:17:12,109 to be celebrated as well, chapters of a person's life. 292 00:17:12,109 --> 00:17:14,550 Like, they don't have to be a definite emblem. 293 00:17:14,710 --> 00:17:17,150 It's actually more like, let's put a stamp on who you are right 294 00:17:17,150 --> 00:17:19,349 now, and as soon as that changes, let's celebrate that 295 00:17:19,349 --> 00:17:21,589 change as well. And I think that fluidity that's 296 00:17:21,589 --> 00:17:25,069 so available, it's actually the thing that I I feel really bad 297 00:17:25,069 --> 00:17:28,440 for. Kind of more rigidly set up sort 298 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,480 of societal structures. I feel bad for those people 299 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,600 because I'm like, you know, there's so much beauty in 300 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:36,280 fluidity and accepting change when it comes, and I think 301 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,640 that's something that actually a kind of accidental superpower. 302 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,600 But you know, female artists and and queer artists is that 303 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,640 they're so good, accepting that fluidity and that change because 304 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,440 ultimately they kind of have to, but. 305 00:17:50,830 --> 00:17:52,990 Actually, I think it's something in the industry that we don't 306 00:17:53,070 --> 00:17:55,390 necessarily celebrate as much as we should be. 307 00:17:55,390 --> 00:17:58,790 You know, to run off on a giant tangent about about. 308 00:17:58,910 --> 00:18:01,870 No, I love it. I'm actually so excited about 309 00:18:01,870 --> 00:18:04,190 this because do you know what? I think you're tapping into 310 00:18:04,190 --> 00:18:07,630 something that's so important for society in general. 311 00:18:07,630 --> 00:18:09,630 Like I always say this, I've said this in almost every 312 00:18:09,630 --> 00:18:13,950 episode that like the the music industry is so representative of 313 00:18:13,950 --> 00:18:18,110 what's going in society in general, but that this big, this 314 00:18:18,110 --> 00:18:19,550 concept that you're saying that like. 315 00:18:20,190 --> 00:18:23,830 The music industry want to market a certainty, but also 316 00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:28,150 because we've lived in a society for a long, long time where 317 00:18:28,150 --> 00:18:31,870 certainty is feels safe. You are this person. 318 00:18:31,870 --> 00:18:35,310 I put you in this box, but this is like history. 319 00:18:35,590 --> 00:18:39,190 We've realized the value of fluidity, like you said, in so 320 00:18:39,190 --> 00:18:41,150 many different ways, whether that's. 321 00:18:41,570 --> 00:18:45,730 Gender, sexuality or personality, Like from a female 322 00:18:45,730 --> 00:18:48,570 perspective, we talk about this with like characters, how women 323 00:18:48,570 --> 00:18:51,650 in film always like 1 dimensional and then it's like, 324 00:18:52,010 --> 00:18:56,970 but actually I can be Moody and funny and interesting and like 325 00:18:57,010 --> 00:18:59,690 all these different depending on what day of the week is, you 326 00:18:59,690 --> 00:19:03,330 know what I mean? Like that multi complexity. 327 00:19:03,330 --> 00:19:06,570 Multi, we're multidimensional human beings and like you said 328 00:19:06,570 --> 00:19:10,490 there's so much beauty in that fluidity and resilience. 329 00:19:10,900 --> 00:19:15,900 And making music about that is going to resonate with so many 330 00:19:15,900 --> 00:19:19,540 people, obviously with the queer community, but also with just 331 00:19:19,620 --> 00:19:22,540 everyone. Because everybody, I feel like 332 00:19:22,540 --> 00:19:26,900 we're moving to not everybody I wish everybody, but lots of 333 00:19:26,900 --> 00:19:29,790 people. I feel like have recognized that 334 00:19:29,790 --> 00:19:33,870 in themselves as well, like that we all struggle as human beings 335 00:19:33,870 --> 00:19:36,710 with uncertainty. I mean, I'm on the spectrum, so 336 00:19:36,710 --> 00:19:40,470 I speak also the Autistic Society community. 337 00:19:40,670 --> 00:19:43,630 We love and love a bit of certainty in some ways, but at 338 00:19:43,630 --> 00:19:46,730 the same time, like you said. Being someone who's gone through 339 00:19:46,730 --> 00:19:50,930 changes or that building up that resilience to change, you 340 00:19:50,930 --> 00:19:55,010 recognize it is a superpower. It is because you're like, bring 341 00:19:55,010 --> 00:19:57,010 it on. I can deal with anything and I 342 00:19:57,010 --> 00:20:01,850 can be anything and that. That is so empowering. 343 00:20:01,850 --> 00:20:04,530 And like you said to celebrate that, like look how excited I 344 00:20:04,570 --> 00:20:06,130 am. Like I'm like, this is so 345 00:20:06,170 --> 00:20:07,210 exciting. Absolutely. 346 00:20:07,290 --> 00:20:10,690 And it is, It is celebratory as well, because it's actually. 347 00:20:11,100 --> 00:20:14,940 I mean, not to put too fine a point on it, but fundamental to 348 00:20:15,340 --> 00:20:19,220 us healing some of the issues that we have globally, because 349 00:20:19,540 --> 00:20:24,540 I'd say we suffer with an issue of tradition, as in we hold it 350 00:20:24,780 --> 00:20:28,660 in the highest possible regard. And which is fine in some 351 00:20:28,660 --> 00:20:32,740 senses, but it's it's kind of a bit limiting in a lot. 352 00:20:33,100 --> 00:20:36,220 And you know, I love having my mind changed. 353 00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:39,780 I absolutely love it. And you know, if I love the idea 354 00:20:39,780 --> 00:20:42,100 that I've been thinking something was true for a long 355 00:20:42,100 --> 00:20:44,940 time and someone expresses something, that makes me go, oh, 356 00:20:45,260 --> 00:20:47,300 actually, no. Yeah, I've been thinking about 357 00:20:47,300 --> 00:20:49,420 this in the wrong way. Or perhaps just at this moment 358 00:20:49,420 --> 00:20:52,020 in time, I've realized that I've changed my mind about something. 359 00:20:52,220 --> 00:20:57,440 I find that feeling so. Humbling and so positive, but I 360 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,000 I think it's the kind of thing that people quite scared of 361 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,400 having their minds changed about things. 362 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,360 But actually it's kind of like jumping into a cold ocean, isn't 363 00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:06,600 it? It's like, oh, it's going to be 364 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,680 really, really uncomfortable. But it's like actually, once 365 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,560 you're in there, it's absolutely amazing. 366 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,400 And you know, like it's the kind of thing, yes, there's a bit of 367 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,360 a build up to it, but honestly, like, you'll want it once you're 368 00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:20,080 there and kind of, yeah, like you say, I think just kind of 369 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:21,960 honing in on how to celebrate that. 370 00:21:22,370 --> 00:21:26,610 Welcoming of fluidity. And I actually feel like kind of 371 00:21:26,650 --> 00:21:30,050 the music industry right now is really primed for that 372 00:21:30,050 --> 00:21:33,770 conversation as well because of the fact that we get so much of 373 00:21:33,770 --> 00:21:37,170 an artist now, you know, we don't just get their music or 374 00:21:37,170 --> 00:21:41,050 their artwork, we get we get so much of them now. 375 00:21:41,050 --> 00:21:46,010 We've got in a lot of cases kind of unfettered access where we're 376 00:21:46,010 --> 00:21:48,330 kind of getting absolutely every part of this person's 377 00:21:48,330 --> 00:21:51,560 personality. And at large scale as well, like 378 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,880 there are a lot of like very, very big artists who were kind 379 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,520 of like very, very personable on social media and like interviews 380 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,040 and all this sort of stuff. And so I just, I really feel 381 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,280 like we're kind of ready to accept that conversation of the 382 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,000 complex human being as the artist. 383 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,240 And that actually for me is extremely exciting because I 384 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,560 feel like I I don't know if I would have been able to start 385 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,400 this conversation at industry level even 10 years ago. 386 00:22:17,820 --> 00:22:21,300 And the fact that it's resonating right now, I think, 387 00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:26,140 is speaking to a growing appetite for this conversation, 388 00:22:26,580 --> 00:22:29,860 which is, you know, I'm often told that I'm over the optimist 389 00:22:29,860 --> 00:22:31,660 about these things. And so I'm like, yeah, cool. 390 00:22:31,660 --> 00:22:34,860 You know, there's this huge, ginormous, like, heaving problem 391 00:22:34,860 --> 00:22:37,100 that we've got to deal with. But it's OK, everyone. 392 00:22:37,100 --> 00:22:43,060 We're going to figure it out. But at the same time, I do sort 393 00:22:43,060 --> 00:22:46,580 of feel like a little pinch of that, you know, sweetness around 394 00:22:46,580 --> 00:22:48,940 the conversation probably. Will help us in the long run, 395 00:22:48,940 --> 00:22:51,500 you know, And actually, yes, it's difficult, yes, it's 396 00:22:51,500 --> 00:22:55,260 frustrating but also at the same time like unlike most 397 00:22:55,260 --> 00:22:58,740 generations before, we are able to have this conversation now. 398 00:22:58,780 --> 00:23:01,540 And I think, I think that's that's probably the most 399 00:23:01,540 --> 00:23:04,540 exciting bet. And I get to stand in my power 400 00:23:04,540 --> 00:23:07,780 as a trans, non binary person and go like stand up there on my 401 00:23:07,780 --> 00:23:11,620 soapbox going, hey, we need to look at this and I actually 402 00:23:11,620 --> 00:23:16,160 don't have to fear doing that. That much, I mean, there's like, 403 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,680 you know, there's things around. It. 404 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:24,800 Relatively, relatively speaking. You know, as an intersectional 405 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:29,440 person I'm used to being on people's odd list, so being 406 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,360 mixed race, being queer, being trans, non binary. 407 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:38,080 I live at intersections and so it's kind of like kind of my 408 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,200 natural resting place. And so for me it feels quite 409 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,840 normal. But yeah, it's actually just, I 410 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,640 think, quite an exciting time for these conversations. 411 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,000 Yeah, I would agree with you actually, even though some of 412 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,200 these conversations I've been having as part of this podcast 413 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,640 season have obviously been tough when we've talked about the 414 00:23:53,640 --> 00:24:00,240 challenges and the difficulties. I actually overall have a really 415 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,360 positive, I come away feeling really excited for a time where 416 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,080 first of all we can have these conversations and then also 417 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,080 we're talking about Okay, Well, what are we going to do about 418 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,560 all of this? And people are listening and 419 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,440 people are engaging in this conversation in a way that is 420 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:20,520 so, like enthusiastic and genuinely interested in like 421 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,920 what we can do. Even things like I was looking 422 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,080 yesterday on the podcast listeners. 423 00:24:25,700 --> 00:24:27,620 You know, like all the audience details. 424 00:24:28,060 --> 00:24:32,340 And because I was quite curious about the gender split of the 425 00:24:32,340 --> 00:24:36,580 people who listened to this podcast and before I started, 426 00:24:36,620 --> 00:24:39,300 because the first two seasons are more focused on like rights 427 00:24:39,300 --> 00:24:44,300 and music industry and stuff. And and the split was slightly 428 00:24:44,300 --> 00:24:47,940 more women than men and obviously a handful of nonbinary 429 00:24:47,940 --> 00:24:50,620 and a handful of people who don't specify. 430 00:24:52,010 --> 00:24:55,570 And I checked yesterday and actually it's gone up. 431 00:24:55,610 --> 00:24:59,450 The number of, as in the percentage, sorry, of male 432 00:24:59,450 --> 00:25:02,370 listeners has increased. And there's more male listeners 433 00:25:02,370 --> 00:25:07,810 listening to this season called women in the music industry like 434 00:25:07,930 --> 00:25:11,890 focusing on inclusivity and I'm like, yes, how? 435 00:25:12,490 --> 00:25:16,730 Are you? Absolutely. 436 00:25:17,650 --> 00:25:21,890 And and that's, I think that is so telling as well, because I 437 00:25:21,890 --> 00:25:24,650 really feel like and that's probably something that I think 438 00:25:24,650 --> 00:25:28,570 the music industry is quite lucky with, which is that I 439 00:25:28,570 --> 00:25:34,210 think because we're quite used to talking about genre and how 440 00:25:34,370 --> 00:25:38,610 an artist's sound and feeling will change over time. 441 00:25:38,610 --> 00:25:41,730 I think perhaps we've got this sense of like, oh, there's you 442 00:25:41,730 --> 00:25:45,530 know, a shifting way that music is being listened to, being 443 00:25:45,530 --> 00:25:47,970 consumed. And we get a lot of people that 444 00:25:47,970 --> 00:25:51,810 are very interested in that seasonal thing that kind of 445 00:25:51,970 --> 00:25:54,290 comes around and we sort of like look at these different trends 446 00:25:54,290 --> 00:25:56,450 that are happening or we look at the ways that people are 447 00:25:56,690 --> 00:25:59,090 changing their listening habits and things like this. 448 00:25:59,090 --> 00:26:02,450 And I think like actually it makes a lot of sense as well 449 00:26:02,490 --> 00:26:05,930 that a podcast like yours is, is is like getting that that type 450 00:26:05,930 --> 00:26:08,090 of listenership. And I think it does speak to A 451 00:26:08,210 --> 00:26:10,970 to a change in the tides. Like I really hope that gets 452 00:26:10,970 --> 00:26:14,560 represented. At a large level, but it's such 453 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:16,880 an important conversation that one that you're having you know 454 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,920 and and so yeah just power to it because like we basically we 455 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,680 kind of just need men consuming this, consuming this content 456 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:30,040 basically because. That it's kind of like as as the 457 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,120 women in queer groups, we're like, we know. 458 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,720 Yeah, I know. But at the same time as well, 459 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,360 but also like, I think what's interesting about it is that 460 00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:42,340 like what would be great is. A conversation that's centered 461 00:26:42,340 --> 00:26:46,500 around the experiences of women and queer people. 462 00:26:46,860 --> 00:26:51,020 But I would say one that then is kind of like there are aspects 463 00:26:51,020 --> 00:26:54,140 of that that are informed by the understanding from the male 464 00:26:54,140 --> 00:26:55,940 perspective. Because I think it's like one of 465 00:26:55,940 --> 00:26:57,860 those things that I don't really want to shut it down. 466 00:26:58,220 --> 00:27:01,980 I'm more trying to figure out exactly why we are where we are 467 00:27:02,340 --> 00:27:05,860 and and how a headspace, which is probably to that to an 468 00:27:05,860 --> 00:27:08,780 individual, a largely benign headspace. 469 00:27:09,300 --> 00:27:11,660 You know, I don't think anyone's out there going, I want to 470 00:27:11,660 --> 00:27:14,740 subjugate women. Like, I don't think anyone's 471 00:27:14,740 --> 00:27:17,020 really out there thinking that, to be honest. 472 00:27:17,380 --> 00:27:20,780 Like in some places, yes. But I think to the individual in 473 00:27:20,780 --> 00:27:23,820 a country like the UK that I think the issue is they're just 474 00:27:23,820 --> 00:27:27,660 not thinking about it at all. And actually, if you were to 475 00:27:27,660 --> 00:27:30,660 bring that conversation to them, listening to what they would 476 00:27:30,660 --> 00:27:34,500 have to say in response to it would, I think, be illuminating. 477 00:27:35,010 --> 00:27:38,650 And might provide some sense of how to step away from that 478 00:27:38,650 --> 00:27:41,170 feeling of like just invisibility, because that's 479 00:27:41,170 --> 00:27:44,090 really what it feels like, You know, It feels like there's an 480 00:27:44,090 --> 00:27:47,610 invisibility issue. You know, like as a nonbinary 481 00:27:47,610 --> 00:27:50,170 person in the UK, I'm not recognized legally in this 482 00:27:50,170 --> 00:27:52,490 country. You know, as who I am. 483 00:27:52,930 --> 00:27:56,050 It's not an option for me. And has been made very clear 484 00:27:56,050 --> 00:27:59,730 that there is no, no incentive for the government to be making 485 00:27:59,730 --> 00:28:01,610 any changes about that anytime soon. 486 00:28:01,890 --> 00:28:05,740 And so it's it's. It's at an existential level, 487 00:28:05,740 --> 00:28:09,300 but also it's at a very literal legal level that there is an 488 00:28:09,300 --> 00:28:12,660 invisibility issue around the experiences of women, the 489 00:28:12,660 --> 00:28:15,580 experiences of trans people, the experiences of queer people. 490 00:28:16,140 --> 00:28:18,420 And I think actually if there were more people that were 491 00:28:18,420 --> 00:28:22,340 willing to be part of that conversation who were men, 492 00:28:22,500 --> 00:28:24,620 especially straight men, especially straight white men, 493 00:28:24,660 --> 00:28:28,580 then I think ultimately like it's it's being informed, isn't 494 00:28:28,580 --> 00:28:29,460 it? You know, I think the more you 495 00:28:29,460 --> 00:28:31,940 know, the more you're willing to do or the more you're willing to 496 00:28:31,940 --> 00:28:34,170 listen or. I think ultimately just it's 497 00:28:34,170 --> 00:28:37,930 just a case of changing people's minds and that's the hard bit. 498 00:28:37,930 --> 00:28:40,850 But I think that's the bit that you have to just do little bit 499 00:28:40,850 --> 00:28:42,770 by little bit. And so actually the fact that 500 00:28:42,770 --> 00:28:45,530 you're seeing an incremental change in your listenership in 501 00:28:45,530 --> 00:28:48,690 the podcast is actually like a perfect example of like stay 502 00:28:48,690 --> 00:28:53,210 consistent, keep doing what you are doing and it will catch on 503 00:28:53,610 --> 00:28:55,210 because I I believe that to be true. 504 00:28:55,210 --> 00:28:57,490 I really do. I think you with sounds clear, 505 00:28:57,490 --> 00:29:00,330 one of the main things that we said was that we wanted to be 506 00:29:00,690 --> 00:29:03,880 institutional. We didn't want to be this 507 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,000 passing thing that turned into something else. 508 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,600 We were like, we need infrastructure in the music 509 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,680 industry for queer people and for women. 510 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,520 Like we need infrastructure put down. 511 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,800 And we need those platforms to be built on solid foundation and 512 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,800 to be trustworthy and that we know that they aren't going 513 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:22,360 anywhere. And I think. 514 00:29:22,860 --> 00:29:25,500 You know, what you're doing is such a testament to that because 515 00:29:25,500 --> 00:29:28,740 it's like if you do just stay consistent and say we are here 516 00:29:28,940 --> 00:29:31,700 and that's, you know, it's a solid thing that we are 517 00:29:31,700 --> 00:29:34,060 creating. It's something that people put 518 00:29:34,060 --> 00:29:36,140 their trust in. Yeah, totally. 519 00:29:36,180 --> 00:29:38,300 So I'm loving this. This is excellent. 520 00:29:39,380 --> 00:29:41,180 Thanks. Well, also, I think it's 521 00:29:41,180 --> 00:29:44,060 important and why I was so thrilled about it is because my 522 00:29:44,060 --> 00:29:47,420 perspective is similar to yours in that it's not, I think that 523 00:29:47,420 --> 00:29:51,820 it's detrimental to polarize so much and I don't want ever. 524 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,600 Anyone to think this is some kind of like sis man bashing, 525 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,240 you know, seeing podcasts, Cuz that's not the point at all. 526 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,880 And there would be no progress for anybody if we did that. 527 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,040 It's like you said, it's, it's an educational piece. 528 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,560 It's a conversational piece. It's about, yeah, it's not about 529 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,520 polarizing views. It's actually about bringing 530 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,840 everyone together with the community and recognizing that 531 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,720 there's room for everybody and you're not taking anything away 532 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,500 from. Insist straight white men or 533 00:30:19,500 --> 00:30:21,780 whatever. It's just and hearing their 534 00:30:21,780 --> 00:30:24,220 perspective is really important because you can't problem solve 535 00:30:24,220 --> 00:30:25,740 unless you really understand the problem. 536 00:30:25,740 --> 00:30:29,060 And it's not that they as necessarily as an individual is 537 00:30:29,060 --> 00:30:32,670 the problem, but it's like. The we want to get the whole 538 00:30:32,670 --> 00:30:36,230 landscape and figure out OK why isn't anybody hiring these 539 00:30:36,230 --> 00:30:39,110 people and and what's the logic behind that and are you and are 540 00:30:39,110 --> 00:30:41,870 they understanding the full picture and and the overall 541 00:30:41,870 --> 00:30:44,590 benefit of bringing everybody in all that kind of stuff. 542 00:30:44,590 --> 00:30:47,950 So yeah I'm really glad about that for that like you're saying 543 00:30:47,950 --> 00:30:51,030 that reason it's they these we all need to be part of this 544 00:30:51,030 --> 00:30:54,390 conversation and I hope that people do feel that it's that's 545 00:30:54,390 --> 00:30:57,670 the whole point it's an include inclusivity includes everybody. 546 00:30:57,750 --> 00:30:59,990 Yes, exactly. It's not exactly. 547 00:31:00,070 --> 00:31:02,430 What it says. For anyone else, it's just more 548 00:31:02,430 --> 00:31:04,390 for the people that are underrepresented, right. 549 00:31:04,390 --> 00:31:07,390 And I think that's where the tricky part comes in sometimes, 550 00:31:07,390 --> 00:31:12,030 because I think sometimes it can feel like making space for 551 00:31:12,030 --> 00:31:14,350 someone is the same as giving something up. 552 00:31:14,550 --> 00:31:18,030 And I think a lot of people don't want to give up things 553 00:31:18,030 --> 00:31:22,190 that they hold this themselves. And so it's a case of, yeah, 554 00:31:22,590 --> 00:31:25,430 trying to reframe that conversation is actually making 555 00:31:25,430 --> 00:31:27,830 space for someone will enrich your life. 556 00:31:28,070 --> 00:31:32,170 It will add more to it. And when you're willing to make 557 00:31:32,170 --> 00:31:34,850 that step, honestly, it is game changing. 558 00:31:35,330 --> 00:31:39,890 And I've seen it so much in in the communities that I'm, I'm 559 00:31:39,890 --> 00:31:42,290 involved in. And you know how a person 560 00:31:42,290 --> 00:31:48,090 blossoms when they are both able to receive from that community, 561 00:31:48,090 --> 00:31:52,090 but give to that community and allow space for people to thrive 562 00:31:52,090 --> 00:31:53,970 in that community like what it does. 563 00:31:54,330 --> 00:31:57,010 And there are straight white men in communities that I am part of 564 00:31:57,210 --> 00:31:59,600 who are. Absolutely thriving in those 565 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,280 spaces and you know leaning into their, their more feminine 566 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,720 traits, leaning into their expression because they've been 567 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:08,760 allowed the space to do that for one. 568 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,160 But they also understand the value of allowing space for 569 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,800 other people to do that as well. And so I think it's extremely 570 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,840 possible and not only possible but so amazing. 571 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,280 It's such a beautiful journey that I'm it's just like this is 572 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,120 just an invitation to like come and join this because honestly 573 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:26,600 it's the best feeling in the world. 574 00:32:28,050 --> 00:32:32,290 I love it, but and so I wanted to ask you the next question. 575 00:32:32,290 --> 00:32:34,690 You've kind of answered it already and but maybe you want 576 00:32:34,690 --> 00:32:37,490 to add to this, which is so we're we're feeling really 577 00:32:37,490 --> 00:32:39,130 positive which is so nice I'm getting. 578 00:32:40,810 --> 00:32:42,290 Good. Yeah, it's nice. 579 00:32:42,330 --> 00:32:45,330 We're not all like because we could, we could also spend the 580 00:32:45,330 --> 00:32:47,450 hour, you know, grumbling about how difficult it is. 581 00:32:47,650 --> 00:32:49,850 And we're not undermining the difficulties or the challenges 582 00:32:49,850 --> 00:32:52,090 in any way because they do exist. 583 00:32:52,450 --> 00:32:56,090 But I also love to problem solve and I love to think about. 584 00:32:56,650 --> 00:33:01,250 And share the things that we can do as individuals and also as a 585 00:33:01,250 --> 00:33:03,530 community. And then also maybe if you're in 586 00:33:03,530 --> 00:33:07,290 a position of a decision making power or policy maker, you know, 587 00:33:07,290 --> 00:33:11,410 what are the things that you think we can do on any or all of 588 00:33:11,410 --> 00:33:15,050 those levels to make the music industry more inclusive? 589 00:33:15,610 --> 00:33:20,450 So I think if we were to go micro and then macro, I think 590 00:33:20,450 --> 00:33:23,930 it's like at micro level I think. 591 00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:25,980 Okay. So what we're doing with Sounds 592 00:33:25,980 --> 00:33:29,580 Queer is kind of a micro level answer to suck to one of the 593 00:33:29,580 --> 00:33:32,740 issues that marginalized communities face within the 594 00:33:32,740 --> 00:33:34,900 industry. So what I would say is we need 595 00:33:34,900 --> 00:33:38,820 more pockets of people who are willing to do that. 596 00:33:38,820 --> 00:33:41,540 Basically someone said to me like, oh, you know, this is 597 00:33:41,540 --> 00:33:43,420 actually a really good idea, You're not worried about people 598 00:33:43,420 --> 00:33:45,740 replicating it. And I said no, I want as many 599 00:33:45,740 --> 00:33:49,540 replications of this as possible all over the UK, all over the 600 00:33:49,540 --> 00:33:52,270 world. Like, we need as many platforms 601 00:33:52,270 --> 00:33:57,350 at grassroots level as possible. So if you are in a position to 602 00:33:57,350 --> 00:34:02,950 mobilize even a tiny pocket of people around that, that will do 603 00:34:02,950 --> 00:34:05,510 the world of good for the representation in the city that 604 00:34:05,510 --> 00:34:08,230 you're in or the town that you're in, which will lend 605 00:34:08,230 --> 00:34:12,230 itself to a much bigger network that ultimately props up 606 00:34:12,230 --> 00:34:16,070 grassroots artists. So that's kind of micro. 607 00:34:16,070 --> 00:34:19,710 And then at macro level, I think it's like. 608 00:34:20,389 --> 00:34:24,230 I think there needs to be bigger conversations at the level of, 609 00:34:24,550 --> 00:34:29,190 you know, these funding bodies and bodies that look to support 610 00:34:29,389 --> 00:34:33,550 artists in at the kind of nascent stage of their journey. 611 00:34:33,830 --> 00:34:38,310 I think there needs to be a more candid conversation about the 612 00:34:38,630 --> 00:34:43,909 drawbacks of communities that are underrepresented and a more 613 00:34:43,909 --> 00:34:47,340 comprehensive. Outlook on how to fund those 614 00:34:47,340 --> 00:34:51,540 artists, but also how to create opportunities for those artists. 615 00:34:51,540 --> 00:34:55,219 And so, you know, I would say there have been some shifts, for 616 00:34:55,219 --> 00:34:58,220 example, in the Arts Council recently where you can kind of 617 00:34:58,220 --> 00:35:01,460 see how it's possible for a person from a marginalized 618 00:35:01,460 --> 00:35:03,180 background to gain access to funding. 619 00:35:03,740 --> 00:35:07,660 But I I feel like just funding that project isn't necessarily 620 00:35:07,860 --> 00:35:10,140 enough. I think there needs to be 621 00:35:10,340 --> 00:35:13,980 assistance with how to bring that project from where it is to 622 00:35:13,980 --> 00:35:17,090 where it's going and. And how to develop that and 623 00:35:17,250 --> 00:35:20,450 perhaps that there should be more developmental, you know, 624 00:35:20,530 --> 00:35:26,410 sources available to artists who like me are intersectional and 625 00:35:26,410 --> 00:35:29,170 how, how do we want to create that opportunity Because I'm 626 00:35:29,170 --> 00:35:33,250 sure there's there's probably smaller bodies that are offering 627 00:35:33,250 --> 00:35:37,410 that at local level, but how do we, how do we access that and 628 00:35:37,410 --> 00:35:40,010 how are these bodies that are responsible for funding artists, 629 00:35:40,010 --> 00:35:43,410 how are they actually assisting them across the board and. 630 00:35:43,950 --> 00:35:46,510 I think that probably then just comes into it at government 631 00:35:46,510 --> 00:35:49,350 level as well, doesn't it? Because it's like how are we 632 00:35:49,350 --> 00:35:52,670 being prioritized in those conversations when it comes down 633 00:35:52,670 --> 00:35:55,470 to legislation put in place around, you know, being a 634 00:35:55,470 --> 00:36:01,790 professional artist and I, I think as queer people, as women, 635 00:36:02,310 --> 00:36:06,350 we all need to be able to look ahead and see what the steps are 636 00:36:06,670 --> 00:36:10,950 and see how to how to get from one place to the next and at the 637 00:36:10,950 --> 00:36:13,220 moment. And it just feels a bit 638 00:36:13,220 --> 00:36:15,660 ambiguous. It all feels a little bit 639 00:36:16,100 --> 00:36:18,220 precarious. And it's like, well, maybe you 640 00:36:18,220 --> 00:36:19,100 could try this. I'm not sure. 641 00:36:19,100 --> 00:36:23,900 Maybe you could try that. And it feels very sort of hand 642 00:36:23,900 --> 00:36:25,580 to hand. It's a bit like there isn't 643 00:36:25,580 --> 00:36:28,500 really necessarily an institutional version of that 644 00:36:28,500 --> 00:36:29,860 story. It's kind of like, well, this 645 00:36:29,860 --> 00:36:31,940 person runs this thing, maybe you could speak to them. 646 00:36:31,940 --> 00:36:35,180 And it doesn't really feel like there's much much of A 647 00:36:35,420 --> 00:36:38,220 solidified conversation around what the steps are. 648 00:36:38,260 --> 00:36:40,500 And so I feel like as an industry. 649 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:46,640 We need to be creating more of a road map for female artists and 650 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,680 for queer artists to reference, because that's we. 651 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,080 One of the big problems that we have actually, is that we we 652 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:57,560 suffer from a lack of reference points because the story is by 653 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,560 and large from a community that isn't, isn't ours or doesn't 654 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,040 resonate with us. It's like it's hard to find 655 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,280 those reference points, especially when you know, for 656 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:07,840 the queer community anyway, it's like. 657 00:37:08,190 --> 00:37:10,270 Someone said to me once, it's like always stuck with me. 658 00:37:10,270 --> 00:37:12,030 You know, queer people aren't allowed to fail. 659 00:37:12,310 --> 00:37:16,110 Basically, you have to arrive fully formed, ready to go. 660 00:37:16,430 --> 00:37:18,950 And if you're not perfect on arrival, that's it. 661 00:37:19,750 --> 00:37:23,790 See you later. And and because we have that 662 00:37:23,790 --> 00:37:28,470 headspace, when an artist who's starting out sees that, they 663 00:37:28,470 --> 00:37:32,390 assume that that is what they have to be at without any 664 00:37:32,390 --> 00:37:35,790 reference of how to get there. We don't see a lot of the 665 00:37:35,790 --> 00:37:39,260 process. And so I think because of that 666 00:37:39,260 --> 00:37:42,180 as well, I think we, I think we miss a lot of amazing artists 667 00:37:42,180 --> 00:37:43,900 actually. I think a lot of people get 668 00:37:43,900 --> 00:37:46,900 discouraged quite early on because they can't understand 669 00:37:46,900 --> 00:37:50,820 how they're supposed to be that huge artist or that that person 670 00:37:50,820 --> 00:37:54,940 who's probably been working at it for years and but we don't 671 00:37:54,940 --> 00:37:58,140 see any of that process, you know, it's not available to us 672 00:37:58,140 --> 00:38:00,090 and so. And maybe there just needs to be 673 00:38:00,090 --> 00:38:03,090 a bit more, a bit more of a mentorship culture around that 674 00:38:03,090 --> 00:38:06,610 as well, like where we go, well, you know, actually here, here 675 00:38:06,610 --> 00:38:10,050 are some channels by which you can kind of gauge the journey of 676 00:38:10,050 --> 00:38:14,170 an artist he's similar to you and maybe we could be working to 677 00:38:14,170 --> 00:38:16,290 create platforms like that as well, you know. 678 00:38:16,770 --> 00:38:20,370 But yeah, so I think, yeah, to to put a finer point in it, at 679 00:38:20,370 --> 00:38:23,570 micro level, we just need more platforms, small communities 680 00:38:23,570 --> 00:38:25,970 working together, even if that's five or six people. 681 00:38:26,460 --> 00:38:28,940 At macro level, we need to figure out what is the road map 682 00:38:28,940 --> 00:38:32,420 of an artist from this background and how do we help 683 00:38:32,420 --> 00:38:36,060 them, you know, get to those points in their journey. 684 00:38:36,500 --> 00:38:38,940 And because really that's what we need funding into, it's what 685 00:38:38,940 --> 00:38:41,540 we need research into as well. Like research is, you know, we 686 00:38:41,540 --> 00:38:45,180 need data which we don't have and you know all of these things 687 00:38:45,180 --> 00:38:47,100 that comes into into that same thing. 688 00:38:47,100 --> 00:38:49,020 It's like who are they? Where are they? 689 00:38:49,220 --> 00:38:51,940 You know, how old are they, how you know how many of them are 690 00:38:51,940 --> 00:38:53,700 there? Like all of these things, you 691 00:38:53,700 --> 00:38:57,840 just have no data. To say one way or another, and 692 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,080 because there's no data, it's like, well, there's not an 693 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,360 issue, you know? Yeah, and also without the data. 694 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,160 Yeah. And also, what do they need? 695 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,240 I think it's a very comprehensive argument, a whole 696 00:39:12,240 --> 00:39:14,440 assessment. I really feel like we should 697 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,920 just write that down and send it off to someone who should put 698 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:21,670 all of those actions in place. Because I love what you're 699 00:39:21,670 --> 00:39:26,110 saying about we need joined up thinking from the industry to 700 00:39:26,150 --> 00:39:31,830 support these communities and of marginalized people. 701 00:39:32,190 --> 00:39:34,510 But also one thing that really stuck with me that you said was 702 00:39:34,510 --> 00:39:39,470 about when you receive funding and you get support with that 703 00:39:39,470 --> 00:39:43,710 funding to complete your project that yeah, think about what does 704 00:39:43,710 --> 00:39:46,270 that person actually need? And this goes back to what you 705 00:39:46,270 --> 00:39:49,660 said earlier about the. Specific challenges that are 706 00:39:49,660 --> 00:39:55,780 faced by queer and non binary and trans people as opposed to 707 00:39:55,900 --> 00:40:00,740 the challenges that would be faced by a fist like man is that 708 00:40:01,020 --> 00:40:03,780 they might need some more nurturing and support and 709 00:40:03,780 --> 00:40:07,180 mentorship around like you said, around identity, around 710 00:40:07,740 --> 00:40:10,500 overcoming even things like well because you're more likely to 711 00:40:10,500 --> 00:40:13,660 come across discrimination and violence and so you might need 712 00:40:13,660 --> 00:40:15,580 to support with that kind of stuff so. 713 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:20,840 It's like tailoring the support that you're offering to the 714 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,400 people to what they actually need rather than going back to 715 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,280 what you said earlier. Just assuming the flatline is 716 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,640 white straight man and this is what the white straight man 717 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,920 would need to be supported to develop their career in the 718 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:35,720 music industry. Because it's not the same, 719 00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:38,130 obviously. I know the lived experience is 720 00:40:38,130 --> 00:40:40,210 so different. I mean, like, and this is an 721 00:40:40,210 --> 00:40:43,610 unfortunate thing, but like, I am connected to a number of 722 00:40:43,610 --> 00:40:46,530 artists that have experienced any number of, you know, 723 00:40:46,850 --> 00:40:49,450 domestic issues. As in, I am experiencing 724 00:40:49,450 --> 00:40:52,250 houselessness because I can't stay at home with my family 725 00:40:52,410 --> 00:40:54,570 because I'm unsafe in that environment. 726 00:40:54,570 --> 00:40:56,650 Now if you say something, we're going to give you 10 grand to 727 00:40:56,650 --> 00:41:01,200 make an album. So it's like, yeah, but I don't 728 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:07,840 have a house, you know? And so it's like, you know, yes, 729 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,000 of course that's positive and everything, but there are so 730 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,680 many things going on in the lived experience of these people 731 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,880 where it's like, you know, for example. 732 00:41:17,460 --> 00:41:20,540 You know, just offhand a very simple thing that you could be 733 00:41:20,540 --> 00:41:23,500 providing as a funding body to people from marginalized 734 00:41:23,500 --> 00:41:26,500 backgrounds or people that have experienced violence because of 735 00:41:26,500 --> 00:41:29,940 their gender or sexuality is saying part of this fund is 736 00:41:29,940 --> 00:41:33,940 going towards therapy. You know, like part of that is 737 00:41:33,940 --> 00:41:36,740 for that because actually you know people from from these 738 00:41:36,740 --> 00:41:39,980 communities by and large can't actually afford access to care 739 00:41:39,980 --> 00:41:41,860 like that. That would actually really, 740 00:41:41,860 --> 00:41:45,030 really help them. And so maybe there is something 741 00:41:45,030 --> 00:41:46,950 that you go, well, actually part of this is to do with your 742 00:41:46,950 --> 00:41:51,310 mental health as well, and which is an extremely important part 743 00:41:51,310 --> 00:41:53,830 of the journey and the process for any queer artist and any 744 00:41:53,830 --> 00:41:57,910 female artist. And so it feels like, yeah, it's 745 00:41:57,910 --> 00:42:00,550 not comprehensive enough, right. It's not answering enough 746 00:42:00,550 --> 00:42:03,390 questions. And what's funny is that 747 00:42:03,390 --> 00:42:06,610 actually, you know. I've met a number of people from 748 00:42:06,650 --> 00:42:09,970 from, you know, Arts Council boards and all of these sorts of 749 00:42:09,970 --> 00:42:11,170 things. And what's funny is that they 750 00:42:11,170 --> 00:42:16,450 are hugely diverse and extremely mixed bag of human beings. 751 00:42:16,650 --> 00:42:20,250 And so it's funny that these conversations haven't reached 752 00:42:20,250 --> 00:42:22,010 that level yet. But at the same time I also 753 00:42:22,010 --> 00:42:24,370 understand, again, you know Christ's tradition. 754 00:42:24,370 --> 00:42:26,690 This is how things have always been done, all of these things 755 00:42:26,970 --> 00:42:31,090 and also an issue of like funding being just slashed and 756 00:42:31,090 --> 00:42:33,770 slashed and slashed within an inch of its life and. 757 00:42:33,970 --> 00:42:36,940 So. Yeah, I understand there's less 758 00:42:36,940 --> 00:42:40,980 to go around overall than there was, but also it's kind of like 759 00:42:41,100 --> 00:42:43,940 we don't have to. It's not a case of funding, 760 00:42:44,220 --> 00:42:46,500 finding more money, even though it should be also a case of 761 00:42:46,500 --> 00:42:51,260 finding more money. That would be nice and I believe 762 00:42:51,260 --> 00:42:55,860 it's out there somewhere, but it's also the case of just, I 763 00:42:55,860 --> 00:43:00,590 think, getting a bit more. Going into more of the niches of 764 00:43:00,630 --> 00:43:03,630 a person's lived experience and understanding that the lived 765 00:43:03,630 --> 00:43:07,070 experience of every artist is just not the same, and perhaps 766 00:43:07,070 --> 00:43:10,830 funding should be more means tested based on your situation. 767 00:43:11,470 --> 00:43:15,670 And I'm sure that would be the case for a lot of people and 768 00:43:15,670 --> 00:43:18,070 would no doubt do a lot for them as well. 769 00:43:18,510 --> 00:43:22,870 Yeah, I think what you said about tradition is so. 770 00:43:23,250 --> 00:43:27,170 Poignant because I think a lot of times like you said it's it's 771 00:43:27,170 --> 00:43:30,050 a case of the not thinking can be the problem because it's 772 00:43:30,050 --> 00:43:32,250 like, oh, we just do it this way because this is the way it's 773 00:43:32,250 --> 00:43:34,930 always been done. And I heard, I read once this 774 00:43:34,930 --> 00:43:37,410 hilarious story and I can't remember from which book. 775 00:43:37,410 --> 00:43:41,970 I'm like I just devour books so I can never remember which one 776 00:43:42,130 --> 00:43:46,610 it was that I read it. But I think it's coming it's my 777 00:43:46,610 --> 00:43:48,370 brain is telling me that it was from. 778 00:43:50,180 --> 00:43:52,140 What's her name? Glennon Doyle, I think her name 779 00:43:52,140 --> 00:43:55,940 is she wrote a book. It's a great story about how she 780 00:43:55,940 --> 00:43:58,060 leaves her husband and marries a woman and it's just fun. 781 00:43:58,060 --> 00:44:01,260 And I think it was never it could be wrong. 782 00:44:01,300 --> 00:44:04,660 Anyway. The story is that she there's, 783 00:44:04,700 --> 00:44:07,820 she has this friend who she goes around and they're American and 784 00:44:07,820 --> 00:44:11,180 they're making Thanksgiving dinner and the friend cuts the 785 00:44:11,180 --> 00:44:14,260 top off the Turkey and and cooks the top of the Turkey and the 786 00:44:14,260 --> 00:44:15,940 bottom of the Turkey separately in the oven. 787 00:44:16,430 --> 00:44:18,590 And she says to her friend, why do you do it like that? 788 00:44:18,590 --> 00:44:19,950 And she's like, oh, I don't know. 789 00:44:19,950 --> 00:44:21,870 It's just that that's how my mom always did it. 790 00:44:21,870 --> 00:44:23,750 So I thought, that's how you cook a Turkey. 791 00:44:24,150 --> 00:44:26,710 And then she's like, I'm going to call my mom and ask her, 792 00:44:26,710 --> 00:44:28,590 like, why do you cook the Turkey like that? 793 00:44:28,630 --> 00:44:32,870 And the mom says, oh, I cook the Turkey like that because when I 794 00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:36,750 was a kid, my mom cooked the Turkey like that because we had 795 00:44:36,790 --> 00:44:39,550 a really small oven and the Turkey wouldn't fit. 796 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:44,240 So 3 generations of women are cutting the top off a Turkey 797 00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:47,080 when they've got ovens that would fit the Turkey. 798 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,480 And I just love this story because it really illustrates 799 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,560 that you don't just do things because you've seen someone else 800 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:00,440 do it or because that's the way it's always been done. 801 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,730 You have to question. Why are you doing it that way? 802 00:45:03,730 --> 00:45:06,850 And does that way still serve the needs of the people that 803 00:45:06,850 --> 00:45:09,490 you're doing it for? I mean, likewise, I also used to 804 00:45:09,490 --> 00:45:12,690 date a Carpenter and he used to say to me that one of the catch 805 00:45:12,690 --> 00:45:15,090 phrases they had was never knocked down a wall until you 806 00:45:15,090 --> 00:45:18,770 know why it was built because obviously the house could fall 807 00:45:18,770 --> 00:45:20,330 down if you've knocked down the wrong wall. 808 00:45:20,810 --> 00:45:24,450 So I balanced those two stories in my mind of like, don't take 809 00:45:24,450 --> 00:45:27,850 any rash ax of action and knock the house down, but at the same 810 00:45:27,850 --> 00:45:33,210 time just find out why. And question whether this system 811 00:45:33,210 --> 00:45:37,650 or this process or whatever is serving the people. 812 00:45:38,450 --> 00:45:42,690 And there's so many things in life that where you're if you 813 00:45:42,810 --> 00:45:45,810 look into it, I find it so fascinating where it's like the 814 00:45:45,810 --> 00:45:49,250 reason why you know it will be like a gadget or something. 815 00:45:49,250 --> 00:45:52,960 The reason why this. Someone was saying like 816 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,360 Microsoft Word, like the save button is a floppy disk. 817 00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,560 The floppy disk don't exist anymore. 818 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,720 So it's like why is it that? But it's fine cuz it meets the 819 00:46:02,720 --> 00:46:05,520 needs of what it needs to do. So yeah, it's really important 820 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,760 to question tradition and find out why it's done that way and 821 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:13,600 consider reconsider whether it really is serving the needs of 822 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:15,240 the community that it's supposed to. 823 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:19,000 Yeah, totally. And I think it's also because we 824 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,450 want this. I think that, well, a lot of 825 00:46:21,450 --> 00:46:26,290 people want this feeling of, yes, solid foundation. 826 00:46:26,530 --> 00:46:29,370 Because actually, in a lot of ways what we're suggesting here 827 00:46:29,370 --> 00:46:32,330 is like, except the chaos, except the fluidity. 828 00:46:32,330 --> 00:46:35,010 We're going to change all the time and we should be changing 829 00:46:35,010 --> 00:46:36,570 with the times and all of these things. 830 00:46:36,570 --> 00:46:38,090 And we're saying this, but actually. 831 00:46:38,410 --> 00:46:42,970 To a certain type of person, that is hell because they're 832 00:46:42,970 --> 00:46:50,010 like, no, a society needs to be structured and have rules and 833 00:46:50,010 --> 00:46:53,970 the things that we need to keep us all in a similar head space 834 00:46:53,970 --> 00:46:56,490 and working towards a common goal and so. 835 00:46:57,060 --> 00:47:02,580 I understand the the difficulty around asking a person to come 836 00:47:02,580 --> 00:47:04,740 around to this way of thinking, but again, it's like you say 837 00:47:04,740 --> 00:47:07,060 we're not. What we're not saying is burn it 838 00:47:07,060 --> 00:47:09,580 down and start again. Although sometimes I get really 839 00:47:09,580 --> 00:47:11,260 frustrated and do have that thought. 840 00:47:14,140 --> 00:47:19,580 But it's more of a case of let's assess every aspect of this, 841 00:47:19,700 --> 00:47:22,780 find out what should stay and find out what needs to, what 842 00:47:22,780 --> 00:47:24,860 needs to go and what needs to just evolve. 843 00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:29,560 And I think sometimes as well, and I don't know if you've felt 844 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:31,480 the same way, I'm sure you probably have at some point or 845 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,200 another where you look at the scale and size of the task in 846 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:40,520 front of you and go, yeah, this is huge and will require a lot 847 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:45,800 from a lot of people. And I can feel exhausted by it. 848 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:51,650 And it's basically a matter of. Urgency for a person like me to 849 00:47:51,650 --> 00:47:54,810 be involved in this. Now imagine that you aren't a 850 00:47:54,810 --> 00:47:57,930 person like me looking at the size of that, and it doesn't 851 00:47:58,090 --> 00:48:00,010 feel like it directly benefits you. 852 00:48:00,650 --> 00:48:03,410 It's not going to feel like an imperative at all. 853 00:48:03,450 --> 00:48:05,890 They're going to be going to be like there are so many other 854 00:48:05,890 --> 00:48:10,730 things going on, why on earth would I be working so hard to 855 00:48:10,730 --> 00:48:15,490 prioritize something like this? And it's a difficult question to 856 00:48:15,490 --> 00:48:17,770 answer if a person asks you because it's like, well, 857 00:48:17,770 --> 00:48:20,480 actually. It's not that you have 858 00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,960 specifically any reason, but it's more of a case of are you 859 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:28,600 able to take a step back and look at the big picture and 860 00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:33,200 understand that your experience is one of many and that actually 861 00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,320 you could do a small amount that would count for so much? 862 00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:41,640 And are you willing to do that? And if you're not, just kind of 863 00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,960 why, you know, why are you in a position where you're not 864 00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:47,720 willing to do something that would really, really help? 865 00:48:48,130 --> 00:48:50,890 A lot of people that are all around you, and I think that's 866 00:48:50,890 --> 00:48:52,930 where the sort of visibility element comes into it. 867 00:48:52,930 --> 00:48:55,250 This is why we need these pockets of communities all over 868 00:48:55,250 --> 00:48:57,850 the place. Because actually people think, 869 00:48:58,010 --> 00:49:00,010 oh, these people are nowhere near me, they're often some 870 00:49:00,010 --> 00:49:02,890 other place or they they go to London, they go to Manchester, 871 00:49:02,890 --> 00:49:04,730 whatever it is. And like they they exist in 872 00:49:04,730 --> 00:49:06,610 those places and they should take care of themselves. 873 00:49:06,770 --> 00:49:09,570 But actually it's more of a case of like literally all around 874 00:49:09,650 --> 00:49:12,010 you. Like it's literally, you know, 875 00:49:12,010 --> 00:49:14,770 it touches every single person in some way or another. 876 00:49:15,170 --> 00:49:16,890 And actually, if we can practice. 877 00:49:17,340 --> 00:49:22,140 This giving energy at that level, it will no doubt feed out 878 00:49:22,180 --> 00:49:24,780 into every other element of our lives. 879 00:49:25,340 --> 00:49:28,660 And so it's, I would say, if anything, it's this kind of like 880 00:49:29,020 --> 00:49:34,420 very accessible way to get into into a more welcoming community. 881 00:49:34,780 --> 00:49:37,820 You know, like there's there's definitely niches which are 882 00:49:37,820 --> 00:49:40,900 harder to perceive and harder to understand, but it's like 883 00:49:40,900 --> 00:49:44,220 actually like, you know, female inclusivity. 884 00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,960 Trans inclusivity and queer inclusivity. 885 00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:48,840 Is this you everywhere? Yes, on your doorstep. 886 00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:50,600 You can get it tomorrow if you wanted it. 887 00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,120 Like literally. It's just it's all around you. 888 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,640 It's very available. So basically I just think, take 889 00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:00,520 the opportunity, you know? Great. 890 00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,200 So before I ask you the final question that I'm asking 891 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,480 everybody in this season, is there anything else that you 892 00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:09,920 want to say, anything you want to shine a light on that you 893 00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,400 haven't had an opportunity to so far? 894 00:50:13,140 --> 00:50:15,380 I don't know. It's been such a such a big 895 00:50:15,380 --> 00:50:17,420 conversation. It's been really, really lovely. 896 00:50:17,500 --> 00:50:22,740 And so I think I feel like off the top of my head I feel like 897 00:50:22,740 --> 00:50:24,900 we've covered quite quite a lot there. 898 00:50:25,260 --> 00:50:28,860 I think in my mind coming into this, I knew that I wanted to 899 00:50:28,860 --> 00:50:30,860 talk about sounds queer and it actually it's really, really 900 00:50:30,860 --> 00:50:32,860 nice because I feel like we've talked about it a lot, which is 901 00:50:32,900 --> 00:50:36,180 really, really great and just I guess just kind of reiterating 902 00:50:36,180 --> 00:50:40,620 the importance of of looking to see what's around you because 903 00:50:40,660 --> 00:50:43,770 actually it's like. I think sometimes we can get 904 00:50:43,770 --> 00:50:47,010 into this, this sense of not necessarily a monotony, but we 905 00:50:47,010 --> 00:50:51,370 kind of get caught in rhythms. And I suppose I something that I 906 00:50:51,450 --> 00:50:53,610 really try to practice with, practice with myself, because I 907 00:50:53,610 --> 00:50:56,170 do the same thing as I get caught in a rhythm and forget to 908 00:50:56,170 --> 00:51:00,330 just look for a second. And actually when you do, you're 909 00:51:00,330 --> 00:51:04,330 kind of inviting a lot of a lot of new experiences and a lot of 910 00:51:04,330 --> 00:51:06,330 ways to look at the world that you wouldn't have thought of 911 00:51:06,330 --> 00:51:08,770 before. And so I just think. 912 00:51:09,540 --> 00:51:12,820 I think that's probably like if you wanted to do very little, 913 00:51:14,500 --> 00:51:21,780 but the trend just one time and honestly it is a game changer. 914 00:51:21,820 --> 00:51:24,260 And so I guess that's probably all I wanted to say well. 915 00:51:25,580 --> 00:51:28,780 I hope that's very encouraging and you're making it sound, like 916 00:51:28,780 --> 00:51:31,940 you said, very accessible, very easy, and very rewarding for 917 00:51:31,940 --> 00:51:35,500 very little efforts. I was at an event the other day 918 00:51:35,740 --> 00:51:38,490 and. This person who was a straight 919 00:51:38,490 --> 00:51:41,770 white man who was the manager of this venue, just checked my 920 00:51:41,770 --> 00:51:46,410 pronouns before we started talking and honestly, I could 921 00:51:46,410 --> 00:51:49,290 have cried. It was like the loveliest thing. 922 00:51:49,290 --> 00:51:51,570 And I was like, great, exactly what we need. 923 00:51:51,850 --> 00:51:55,210 Tiniest little thing in the world, and it means so much, you 924 00:51:55,210 --> 00:51:59,290 know, to someone like me. And so I think whatever it is, 925 00:51:59,330 --> 00:52:02,850 like whatever version of that sentence it is just practicing a 926 00:52:02,850 --> 00:52:05,930 little bit of awareness. Is, Yeah. 927 00:52:05,930 --> 00:52:08,330 It just counts for so much. Lovely. 928 00:52:08,850 --> 00:52:13,170 So as you know, in this season it's, it's called Women in the 929 00:52:13,170 --> 00:52:15,450 Music Industry. But I wanted to make an extra 930 00:52:15,450 --> 00:52:19,010 effort to make sure that everybody knows, if you don't, 931 00:52:19,010 --> 00:52:22,290 if you never met me before that my understanding of feminism is 932 00:52:22,290 --> 00:52:25,970 intersectional and inclusive and involves making everybody feel 933 00:52:26,330 --> 00:52:29,410 welcome and included. So I'm extra extra grateful for 934 00:52:29,410 --> 00:52:33,090 you talking to us today and sharing your perspective as 935 00:52:33,090 --> 00:52:35,190 well. So the question that I have been 936 00:52:35,190 --> 00:52:39,590 asking the other guests who were identifying as female was who 937 00:52:39,590 --> 00:52:42,350 was their favorite female Music Maker? 938 00:52:42,670 --> 00:52:45,150 But obviously for you. I really would love for you to 939 00:52:45,150 --> 00:52:50,790 shine a light on any favorite queer or non binary or trans 940 00:52:50,870 --> 00:52:54,170 basically. Anybody from the group that we 941 00:52:54,170 --> 00:53:00,010 want to include and just who is your a favorite? 942 00:53:00,010 --> 00:53:04,170 Because obviously it would be very hard to pick one and 943 00:53:04,250 --> 00:53:07,650 basically I was hoping for like an all time ever. 944 00:53:08,550 --> 00:53:12,270 Kind of fave and then maybe somebody more recently that you 945 00:53:12,270 --> 00:53:15,830 are admiring or appreciating. Yeah, this is such a big one, 946 00:53:15,830 --> 00:53:17,470 isn't it? Because I I really feel like 947 00:53:17,470 --> 00:53:21,110 there's just this like growing list of extremely wonderful 948 00:53:21,110 --> 00:53:23,150 individuals who are making music. 949 00:53:23,630 --> 00:53:26,630 And I think if I were to kind of go, it's funny really actually, 950 00:53:26,630 --> 00:53:29,350 because when I think about this, I do think of a lot of women 951 00:53:29,350 --> 00:53:35,390 because I feel like there is, over time, the challenge of. 952 00:53:35,930 --> 00:53:39,890 Traditional femininity through music has been so prominent. 953 00:53:40,250 --> 00:53:43,330 And so like, if I think about it, like the people that flashed 954 00:53:43,330 --> 00:53:47,210 into my mind are people like Patti Smith and PJ Harvey who 955 00:53:47,210 --> 00:53:52,370 were like challenging the preconception of what femininity 956 00:53:52,370 --> 00:53:55,330 is, especially in musical spheres and and things like 957 00:53:55,330 --> 00:53:56,890 this. So if I would say like a kind of 958 00:53:56,930 --> 00:53:59,810 all time like I I actually adore Patti Smith basically. 959 00:53:59,810 --> 00:54:03,290 And like I've got so much time for that woman and like I think 960 00:54:03,770 --> 00:54:06,880 her. Journey as well, has been so 961 00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:11,240 telling of such an individual perspective on what her humanity 962 00:54:11,240 --> 00:54:13,480 is and what her understanding of the world is. 963 00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:15,920 And really that's what we're looking for, is nuance. 964 00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,320 And so it's inspiring to see that exploration of nuance. 965 00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:23,880 And because I see that as an invitation and in a lot of ways 966 00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:28,200 I can thank people like her for the journey that I am on because 967 00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:32,600 it's like, hey, don't accept status quo, you know, figure out 968 00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:36,740 who you as an individual are. And then I suppose actually in 969 00:54:36,740 --> 00:54:39,420 terms of that because actually thinking about it now the other 970 00:54:39,420 --> 00:54:43,220 person I'm thinking of as well is that is is self esteem and 971 00:54:43,340 --> 00:54:47,180 who's obviously more more recent artist and like, but actually in 972 00:54:47,180 --> 00:54:50,020 so many ways such an echo of that ethos. 973 00:54:50,020 --> 00:54:55,940 Because so unashamedly talking about her lived experience and 974 00:54:55,940 --> 00:55:00,780 how that is both celebratory and beautiful, but extremely complex 975 00:55:00,780 --> 00:55:05,810 and extremely difficult as well. And also so ready to talk about 976 00:55:05,810 --> 00:55:08,410 her experiences within the industry as well, you know, 977 00:55:08,410 --> 00:55:12,170 like, so, so ready to be like, well, actually this is what's 978 00:55:12,490 --> 00:55:16,370 this is what makes it so hard. And you know, the fact that 979 00:55:16,370 --> 00:55:20,810 she's so ready to offer that up to us, I just think is such an 980 00:55:20,810 --> 00:55:25,490 inspiration because it would be so easy to be saying, well, 981 00:55:26,010 --> 00:55:29,370 there's difficulty, but whatever, I'm fabulous, which is 982 00:55:29,370 --> 00:55:32,610 obviously the truth, but to be able to say. 983 00:55:33,890 --> 00:55:37,970 Actually, it's really hard. And I have suffered as a result 984 00:55:37,970 --> 00:55:40,930 of that difficulty. And she's making pop music. 985 00:55:41,210 --> 00:55:43,410 It's incredible. Like absolutely incredible. 986 00:55:43,410 --> 00:55:48,650 And I saw her live show about a year ago and it was just this 987 00:55:48,970 --> 00:55:53,010 absolute pantheon of female power. 988 00:55:53,530 --> 00:55:57,810 It was like watching femininity unfold and like, you know, 989 00:55:58,050 --> 00:56:01,090 emerge from this human, like actually just talking about 990 00:56:01,090 --> 00:56:04,010 like, but also just the the beauty and like the community 991 00:56:04,010 --> 00:56:06,490 around there. And you know, she's got these 992 00:56:06,490 --> 00:56:10,250 performers on the stage with her and so much of the iconography 993 00:56:10,250 --> 00:56:13,210 is around them, leaning on each other and working with each 994 00:56:13,210 --> 00:56:16,160 other. And it really echoes everything 995 00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:17,920 that she's saying. And I just think it's such an 996 00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:19,840 inspiring thing that she's doing. 997 00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:22,560 So there are plenty of other artists that I could like speak 998 00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:26,440 for absolutely days about, but I would say Patti Smith, self 999 00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:29,120 esteem, definitely. I love that. 1000 00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:32,560 I love your answers, especially because, like you said, what I 1001 00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,000 really loved is when you said that they offer you an 1002 00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:39,750 invitation of individualism. And that real, genuine 1003 00:56:39,750 --> 00:56:45,430 authenticity of what it's like to be an actual person, going 1004 00:56:45,430 --> 00:56:49,190 through something and struggling and and being authentic. 1005 00:56:50,230 --> 00:56:52,390 I also love to have Steve. I've got a funny story. 1006 00:56:52,470 --> 00:56:54,390 Well, not a funny story, but a story. 1007 00:56:54,870 --> 00:56:59,590 And I because I appreciate her for all of the reasons that you 1008 00:56:59,590 --> 00:57:03,710 said, but I have extra reason to appreciate her as what I would 1009 00:57:03,710 --> 00:57:07,100 call. This is like my definition of 1010 00:57:07,100 --> 00:57:11,340 the power of permanentity is not in all of the reasons that 1011 00:57:11,340 --> 00:57:14,540 you've said as well, but what she did something once that I 1012 00:57:14,540 --> 00:57:17,660 witnessed that I was like, that's why you're a fucking 1013 00:57:17,700 --> 00:57:21,580 epic, amazing woman. Basically, I went to the Mercury 1014 00:57:21,580 --> 00:57:27,020 Awards in London and we went into the building and into the 1015 00:57:27,020 --> 00:57:29,660 reception and we went to sit down for dinner and then the 1016 00:57:29,660 --> 00:57:35,330 Queen died, Remember So. They cancelled the show. 1017 00:57:35,330 --> 00:57:38,290 She was up for a nomination, She was going to perform, They 1018 00:57:38,290 --> 00:57:40,370 cancelled the show. And as part, if you're watching 1019 00:57:40,370 --> 00:57:43,850 the show, you also get this like ridiculous three course meals, 1020 00:57:43,890 --> 00:57:46,810 all this food and alcohol and everything, and they're like, 1021 00:57:46,970 --> 00:57:50,290 everyone has to leave right now. And I was like. 1022 00:57:50,980 --> 00:57:52,900 What are they going to do with all of that food? 1023 00:57:52,980 --> 00:57:55,620 Like, what a waste Because we will. 1024 00:57:55,860 --> 00:57:57,060 It would already have been cooked. 1025 00:57:57,060 --> 00:57:59,740 We were sitting down for dinner and I remember the person I was 1026 00:57:59,740 --> 00:58:01,620 with being like, you're just saying that cause you're hungry 1027 00:58:02,180 --> 00:58:06,780 because I was like they should let us eat like oh, do something 1028 00:58:06,820 --> 00:58:09,980 with this fish. I was hungry but I was genuinely 1029 00:58:09,980 --> 00:58:14,060 thinking this is a horrific waste of food. 1030 00:58:14,340 --> 00:58:16,820 Like I don't know how many people, like 500 people in that 1031 00:58:16,820 --> 00:58:19,420 room do you know what I mean? All about sit down for three 1032 00:58:19,420 --> 00:58:20,860 course meal and you're just telling us to leave. 1033 00:58:21,540 --> 00:58:24,180 Respects to the Queen, but like what are you going to do about 1034 00:58:24,180 --> 00:58:25,820 this? And so this is my initial 1035 00:58:25,820 --> 00:58:28,460 thought but like, I'm just, I don't feel that I have the power 1036 00:58:28,460 --> 00:58:31,420 to do anything about the situation and I just get hustled 1037 00:58:31,420 --> 00:58:33,020 off out of the room with everybody else. 1038 00:58:33,380 --> 00:58:38,380 And then I see self esteem on Twitter basically being like. 1039 00:58:38,850 --> 00:58:42,370 Get this food to the homeless, get this food to the shelter. 1040 00:58:42,410 --> 00:58:45,770 Like, get this food to like we're not leaving this building 1041 00:58:45,770 --> 00:58:47,650 until they have packaged up all this food. 1042 00:58:47,930 --> 00:58:52,250 And she was incredible. She singlehandedly, you know, 1043 00:58:52,370 --> 00:58:55,570 ensured that that food did not go to waste and there was this 1044 00:58:55,570 --> 00:58:58,610 hole that she connected with like a local restaurant that 1045 00:58:58,610 --> 00:59:00,330 because obviously it was like a roast dinner or something, I 1046 00:59:00,330 --> 00:59:03,650 don't know what it was. And they basically turned them 1047 00:59:03,650 --> 00:59:07,170 into like, bats and wraps so that you could just take one. 1048 00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:11,680 Yeah, And then like gave them to people who were maybe on the 1049 00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:13,920 street or off in the shelter or anything like that. 1050 00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:19,440 And and I was just like, for me, that is feminism. 1051 00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:25,320 That is caring about people, having compassion and having the 1052 00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:27,240 will. She would give a shit about the 1053 00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:29,800 fact that the show had been cancelled and she was maybe up 1054 00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:31,320 for a mercury and all of that stuff. 1055 00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:33,200 She didn't care. She wanted to make sure that 1056 00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:35,680 that food didn't go to waste and it went to people who needed it. 1057 00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:38,120 And I was just like, this woman is my absolute hero. 1058 00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:41,320 I remember those tweets that she put out and it was so great. 1059 00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:43,200 She was like doing all the updates as well. 1060 00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:50,160 Like this restaurant's taking this honestly, such an amazing 1061 00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:52,840 moment, isn't it? And actually such that's just so 1062 00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:56,000 the person that she is. I actually, I met her recently 1063 00:59:56,000 --> 01:00:00,890 and I was like, so. I mean, I was really lame about 1064 01:00:00,890 --> 01:00:03,610 it. Like when I met her, I was like, 1065 01:00:04,010 --> 01:00:09,850 Oh my God, I just love you. And she was just like so 1066 01:00:09,850 --> 01:00:14,010 hilariously relaxed about the entire situation. 1067 01:00:14,290 --> 01:00:17,010 I was like, really, really not doing a relaxed version of 1068 01:00:17,010 --> 01:00:20,760 myself. And yeah, just the way that she 1069 01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:23,520 was, like, she just stood and listened to me for a little 1070 01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:24,440 while. I was like, do you mind if I 1071 01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:26,960 just blow smoke up your ass for, like, a couple of minutes? 1072 01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:29,840 Is that all right? And we did. 1073 01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:31,480 And then she was like, great. Yeah. 1074 01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:34,560 Should we just hug it out now? It's like, yeah, great. 1075 01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:35,200 Cool. Thank you. 1076 01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:40,600 She just could tell what I was needing at that moment. 1077 01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:42,080 She's like, you just need this right now. 1078 01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:45,160 And it's fine. Yeah, I'll let you have it. 1079 01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:47,000 Not a legend. What a legend. 1080 01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:51,600 Well, thank you so much, Diva. It's been an absolute pleasure 1081 01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:53,440 to talk to you today. I really appreciate it. 1082 01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:56,360 And I will put all of the links to anything that you've 1083 01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:59,120 mentioned and anything else that you want me to put for people to 1084 01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:03,840 follow and check out more about the initiatives that you 1085 01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:06,200 mentioned. So hopefully people have 1086 01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:11,680 listened and we'll take on your suggestions and do a bit of 1087 01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:15,880 research as well and follow. And any links that we put in to 1088 01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:19,480 kind of learn more about this perspective because it was 1089 01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:22,040 really important for me to be able to include this. 1090 01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:25,760 So I'm genuinely so, so grateful for your time and for sharing 1091 01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:27,960 and being vulnerable and talking about your experience. 1092 01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:29,520 I really appreciate it. Thank you. 1093 01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:31,640 Thank you so much. Been such a pleasure. 1094 01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:35,000 Thanks for listening, and if you enjoyed this episode, please 1095 01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:36,920 like, share and subscribe.