Anyway, anyway. Hello and welcome to Whose Song
Is It Anyway? I'm Dr. Haley Brochure, and for
this special season of the podcast focusing on women in the
music industry, I'll be your host.
Welcome, diver and thank you so much for being on the podcast.
I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me today.
Can you please introduce yourself and tell the listeners
who you are and what you do in the music industry?
Thanks so much for having me. My name's Diva.
I am a musician all around, creative activists working in
various different facets within the queer community and beyond.
I am currently working on an album, my first ever album, and
sort of like spending my time in lots of conversations with
people in the community. With marginalized groups and
hoping to somehow put those conversations and those stories
at the forefront of my work. And so the music and all other
projects thereof sort of really are connected to propping up
voices that are underrepresented across the board in a nutshell.
I love it. This sounds this sounds magical.
So, and I love that it's you call yourself an activist and
you do this work and then also you're a creator.
And all these things are obviously so intertwined.
So do you want to share a bit more about the kind of activism
that you've been doing? Yeah, I don't know if I coined
this term, but I've recently been referring to myself as more
active than Nest, which is that I sort of, I suppose my brand of
activism is more to do with. Community related projects and
creating ways for communities to thrive.
And so I would say probably the most notable iteration of that
has been through a project that I launched at the start of last
year called Sounds Queer, which is basically a live music.
Queer safe space. So a kind of fairly new idea,
which is quite strange to think about, that there's there's a
platform available to grassroots artists who are queer who don't
have a space to play to an audience of their peers and in a
Safeway. And so we've kind of worked to
create that platform for them kind of in response to.
Actually, how difficult it is to arrive as a queer artist when
there have been so many other difficulties in your journey to
do with how quickly you've come into yourself, how quickly
you've come to your understanding of who you are
just as a person, even before you are as an artist.
And so it's been that has been such a big primary focus for me
over the last year, a year and a bit and so.
That's that's kind of a good, I think, example of the kind of
stuff that I'm doing where it's more about like creating things
within the community that are hopefully creating a sense of
confidence and ownership and inciting a bit of energy around
this. This idea of, you know, we
should be seeing more presentation, we should be
seeing more of these these people in these places and why
don't these places actually have more space available for people
like me and people like so many other people that I work with as
well. And you know that's that sort of
ethos is kind of recycled into a number of different projects
either at small scale with with sort of the local community that
I have here in North London sort of like putting together small
festivals and things like this. And then also actually sort of
taking the ethos of things like sounds quit into more
discussions at industry level. About how to create better and
more diverse representation of the queer community in music
across the board. So that's things like panel
discussions and working with musical bodies to create that
platform. And so I'd say kind of, yeah,
the the platforms themselves end up feeding more into that sort
of how do we, how do we lobby for these things for our
community? Wonderful.
There's so much to unpack there. And so and obviously we are
aligned in our agendas with having these conversations and
trying to both create community and inclusive safe space for
everyone and also to drive that conversation towards policy
based decisions whether that's in government or in decision
making. Rooms of the music industry
people, for instance, you know, deciding lineups or that kind of
angle or even like, you know, as you're saying creating that safe
space. So I'm going to go back to
something you said earlier because I read a quote earlier
about the perception of the lack of inclusivity in the music
industry. And I'm not going to remember
the quote exactly, but I do remember part of the.
The numbers. So it was something like an
obviously very high percentage of women and non binary
individuals in the music industry perceived that there
was a lack of inclusivity in the music industry, whereas a much
lower percentage of men understood that lack of
inclusivity. So with that in mind.
I was wondering if you could just first, and it might seem
like you're saying something obvious, but let's think that
we're talking to those 37% for a minute.
Why do we need that, the safe space that you mentioned that
you're creating in that community?
And basically what was the motivation for you and the drive
behind doing that work? Yeah, actually interestingly
that crate there and that statistic is almost.
Entirely the impetus, because actually I think it's this sense
of to the demographic that is more widely represented in the
music industry and every industry.
But in specific for this conversation in the music
industry, there is an issue of invisibility of the issue.
And basically because there is an issue of invisibility i.e.,
the people who are more broadly represented, they don't tend to
see that there is a problem of representation.
What they see is actually, I'll give you an example, So I was
living in Belfast, actually just before the pandemic that won't
be named. And I'd been there for a couple
of months and I think in one week I'd been to four or five
showcases just to sort of get a sense of the musical world, the
musical landscape. And bearing in mind that I
already knew a number of queer artists, a number of female
artists, a number of trans artists living and working in
Belfast, and every single showcase that I went to was
entirely straight white men. And at one point I think I just
got a little bit frustrated and I spoke to the the person
promoting the show. The next day we had a we had a
quick catch up and a coffee and I said you know.
It's really strange to me that I'm not seeing very diverse
lineups on on the showcases and I'm just wondering why that is,
because everyone seems quite ready to have that and I don't
really understand why it's not there.
And his response was so telling because from his perspective he
he all he said was, you know, I want to book more women, I want
to book more trans and queer artists, but they're not at the
level that we want them to be for this showcase.
And so when they're ready, we'll put them into the showcases.
And I got so upset in that conversation because I was like,
do you not understand though that this is cyclical now?
Because what you're saying is you're not going to give them a
stage to cut their teeth and get good.
And that means that that community and are never going to
get a look in and never going to get the option.
What they need is a way to cut their teeth and actually, you
know, hone in on what what it is that they're wanting to be as an
artist and get good at performing.
And I think. We see some representation of
marginalized communities at the top end where we see women and
queer people and we think, oh great, cool, we're in a better
situation. And those artists, absolutely
amazing and so incredibly important to the whole journey,
but they they represent a very minute percentage of how many
queer. Artists and female artists there
are actually working right now. And the problem that we've got
is this big, big swath of people in the middle that is still
predominantly represented by straight, white men.
And so this platform, the reason why these safe spaces exist, and
I suppose that they're safe spaces for a number of different
reasons. Safe in that.
Yes. You're performing to a community
who you are certain are coming from the same headspace as you
and so that you can be yourself and you don't have to worry
about I'm playing in this pub venue and I'm worried that if
I'm a bit too camp or if I'm a bit too over the top that I'm
somehow going to be, you know, honed in on and and separated.
So there's that worry. So it's safe from that
perspective, but it's also safe in the perspective of I can come
in here as an artist in progress.
And work towards creating something that I'm truly happy
with and having that ability to actually, you know spend some
time working at it. Because I'd say if all the
privileges that you know the kind of the straight male
artists have, the main advantage is the one of being able to work
at it. Like people will take it as
where the Oh yeah, you're just working at something.
You know you'll go and play all these shows and you'll get
you'll get good over time and it feels like something that's.
Strangely, so unavailable to communities like the queer
community and female artists in so many ways.
And so I suppose these platforms are really important because
they're creating a way for these communities to come and actually
have that same process while we're in a position where it's
still I think. By and large, midranged venues,
promoters that work within those venues, festival stages, all of
these sorts of things. They're still by and large under
representing the diversity of live music and gist of music in
general, you know. Absolutely.
I mean, we see it across the board like you said in festival
lineups for 2022 was like 11%. Female and there wasn't even a
statistic about, you know, more diverse genders.
It was just like even the women is like this much, let alone
everybody else. And then you know the same when
we look at catalogs of signed artists signed to major labels,
like 20% women, obviously far fewer for other genders and
queer people, there's not sometimes there's not even data
on that because it's like so little and the.
Like you said, it's so telling. When we see things like the
award show categories and the festival lineups that's been in
the news recently and people were like, oh why don't they
just, you know, get a woman to do it.
And then people's instant responses like well who would be
that woman or who would be that queer person or who would be
that non binary person. And it's that's not the issue.
This is the symptom of A cause, which is exactly what you're
saying the. These people aren't given the
opportunity from day one. They're not given the funding.
They're not given the chance to create an audience.
You need to be in front of people in the 1st place like you
said to practice and hone your craft and also to create those
first initial fans and and people interested in in your
music. And so I think what you're doing
and what you're saying is just so profound and something that.
People often miss is the issue here when we see that like I
said from my perspective the things that that we see in the
news is the symptom not the cause.
It's not a case of like obviously they could just hire
more women and hire more non binary people but it's a
pipeline issue now that we're not funding and supporting
people from the the ground up and I was just into.
Vic Bain, who does the F list, and she was saying that she's
been interviewing people as well.
And she, and they've said they've had experiences of
record labels saying like, oh, we'd love to sign you, but we
already have a woman or we already have a queer person.
It's like, it's not a token. It's not 1.
Yeah, exactly. But this and this is the thing.
Actually, you know, when we started sounds queer, we weren't
hilariously. We weren't really thinking about
it in such profound detail. We were just thinking.
Oh, that's strange. What?
In particular, I was thinking, oh, it would be really nice to
work with the queer promoter, but where are they?
And basically they, you know, at the, in terms of what I'm would
want to be playing in front of that just didn't exist.
And so we were like, well, let's just make it.
We'll do a few showcases a year, no big deal, no problem.
And what happened afterwards? I would say the profundity
really comes from the response. That we've had from queer
artists, other queer promoters around the UK, and from musical
bodies saying, you know, this is actually a really important
conversation. And what we've understood now is
that actually it's so ginormous that actually it's kind of
referencing really what the queer experience is and what the
feminine experience is across the board, even before we even
start thinking about the music industry.
About because this, like you said, this pipeline issue
because basically what we are suffering is a an illness of CIS
male heteronormative neutrality where we say the neutral is to
be straight and white and demand and everything else.
Then by that yardstick is a token or is left or right or
however you want to describe it. And that is, yes, it's echoed in
the music industry of course because it's echoed everywhere.
And so when we speak specifically about the music
industry, it's just we, we are seeing our own brand of that
same sis hat neutrality where we go cool, this is who we consider
to be our baseline human being. And then there's everyone else,
you know, their little niches and all of these things that
we're supposed to, oh, we have to do a diversity thing now.
And so we've got a quota that we're supposed to be hitting,
which don't get me wrong, I think, you know, if you're going
to start anywhere, start there. But ultimately, you know, yes,
we're treating, we're treating a symptom but not the actual, not
the actual issue which is I suppose trying to shift mindsets
towards there being no neutral and ultimately there there is no
normal. But that's a much bigger
conversation, you know and a much harder one to answer as to
how we dig ourselves back out of the whole that we've dug
ourselves into. And so I think when it comes to.
When it comes to platforms like like, you know, this podcast or
anything else that's got sort of like bringing that conversation
to the front, I think it's always going to be valuable.
You know, sometimes it feels like such an uphill battle as
well because, you know, actually, I would say probably
women and queer people are underrepresented because
actually they are challenged with identity crises a lot
earlier. They are challenged with them
for a lot longer. And you know, it's something we
were doing a panel last year for a Wild Park festival.
And you know, speaking with these people who had been in the
music industry for a long time, we were actually discussing that
the music industry is set up by kind of like definites.
And so it goes, what is your brand?
What is your USP like? Who are you Like?
I need it in one sentence, like who are you and, you know, as
queer people? As people from marginalized
communities, actually that question is very difficult to
answer for a really long time because you are late to the
party on everything, you know, because you've had to come to
it. You've had to come out and you
had to figure out all of these things.
And so that's represented in the work that you make, that sense
of uncertainty, that sense of not knowing.
And it takes a lot longer for you to get to that place.
You know, I didn't come out till I was 25 and I I I didn't
realize that I was non binary until I was like close to being
30. And that can be, you know,
that's a that's a tough pill to swallow at a time in your life
when you feel like you're supposed to be kind of like
hitting your stride, you know. And I suppose it's kind of like
we're trying to sort of I suppose just extend the
expectation. Of like actually, you can be in
process, you can be in progress. And how do we then convince the
music industry that this is not only OK, but actually something
to be celebrated as well, chapters of a person's life.
Like, they don't have to be a definite emblem.
It's actually more like, let's put a stamp on who you are right
now, and as soon as that changes, let's celebrate that
change as well. And I think that fluidity that's
so available, it's actually the thing that I I feel really bad
for. Kind of more rigidly set up sort
of societal structures. I feel bad for those people
because I'm like, you know, there's so much beauty in
fluidity and accepting change when it comes, and I think
that's something that actually a kind of accidental superpower.
But you know, female artists and and queer artists is that
they're so good, accepting that fluidity and that change because
ultimately they kind of have to, but.
Actually, I think it's something in the industry that we don't
necessarily celebrate as much as we should be.
You know, to run off on a giant tangent about about.
No, I love it. I'm actually so excited about
this because do you know what? I think you're tapping into
something that's so important for society in general.
Like I always say this, I've said this in almost every
episode that like the the music industry is so representative of
what's going in society in general, but that this big, this
concept that you're saying that like.
The music industry want to market a certainty, but also
because we've lived in a society for a long, long time where
certainty is feels safe. You are this person.
I put you in this box, but this is like history.
We've realized the value of fluidity, like you said, in so
many different ways, whether that's.
Gender, sexuality or personality, Like from a female
perspective, we talk about this with like characters, how women
in film always like 1 dimensional and then it's like,
but actually I can be Moody and funny and interesting and like
all these different depending on what day of the week is, you
know what I mean? Like that multi complexity.
Multi, we're multidimensional human beings and like you said
there's so much beauty in that fluidity and resilience.
And making music about that is going to resonate with so many
people, obviously with the queer community, but also with just
everyone. Because everybody, I feel like
we're moving to not everybody I wish everybody, but lots of
people. I feel like have recognized that
in themselves as well, like that we all struggle as human beings
with uncertainty. I mean, I'm on the spectrum, so
I speak also the Autistic Society community.
We love and love a bit of certainty in some ways, but at
the same time, like you said. Being someone who's gone through
changes or that building up that resilience to change, you
recognize it is a superpower. It is because you're like, bring
it on. I can deal with anything and I
can be anything and that. That is so empowering.
And like you said to celebrate that, like look how excited I
am. Like I'm like, this is so
exciting. Absolutely.
And it is, It is celebratory as well, because it's actually.
I mean, not to put too fine a point on it, but fundamental to
us healing some of the issues that we have globally, because
I'd say we suffer with an issue of tradition, as in we hold it
in the highest possible regard. And which is fine in some
senses, but it's it's kind of a bit limiting in a lot.
And you know, I love having my mind changed.
I absolutely love it. And you know, if I love the idea
that I've been thinking something was true for a long
time and someone expresses something, that makes me go, oh,
actually, no. Yeah, I've been thinking about
this in the wrong way. Or perhaps just at this moment
in time, I've realized that I've changed my mind about something.
I find that feeling so. Humbling and so positive, but I
I think it's the kind of thing that people quite scared of
having their minds changed about things.
But actually it's kind of like jumping into a cold ocean, isn't
it? It's like, oh, it's going to be
really, really uncomfortable. But it's like actually, once
you're in there, it's absolutely amazing.
And you know, like it's the kind of thing, yes, there's a bit of
a build up to it, but honestly, like, you'll want it once you're
there and kind of, yeah, like you say, I think just kind of
honing in on how to celebrate that.
Welcoming of fluidity. And I actually feel like kind of
the music industry right now is really primed for that
conversation as well because of the fact that we get so much of
an artist now, you know, we don't just get their music or
their artwork, we get we get so much of them now.
We've got in a lot of cases kind of unfettered access where we're
kind of getting absolutely every part of this person's
personality. And at large scale as well, like
there are a lot of like very, very big artists who were kind
of like very, very personable on social media and like interviews
and all this sort of stuff. And so I just, I really feel
like we're kind of ready to accept that conversation of the
complex human being as the artist.
And that actually for me is extremely exciting because I
feel like I I don't know if I would have been able to start
this conversation at industry level even 10 years ago.
And the fact that it's resonating right now, I think,
is speaking to a growing appetite for this conversation,
which is, you know, I'm often told that I'm over the optimist
about these things. And so I'm like, yeah, cool.
You know, there's this huge, ginormous, like, heaving problem
that we've got to deal with. But it's OK, everyone.
We're going to figure it out. But at the same time, I do sort
of feel like a little pinch of that, you know, sweetness around
the conversation probably. Will help us in the long run,
you know, And actually, yes, it's difficult, yes, it's
frustrating but also at the same time like unlike most
generations before, we are able to have this conversation now.
And I think, I think that's that's probably the most
exciting bet. And I get to stand in my power
as a trans, non binary person and go like stand up there on my
soapbox going, hey, we need to look at this and I actually
don't have to fear doing that. That much, I mean, there's like,
you know, there's things around. It.
Relatively, relatively speaking. You know, as an intersectional
person I'm used to being on people's odd list, so being
mixed race, being queer, being trans, non binary.
I live at intersections and so it's kind of like kind of my
natural resting place. And so for me it feels quite
normal. But yeah, it's actually just, I
think, quite an exciting time for these conversations.
Yeah, I would agree with you actually, even though some of
these conversations I've been having as part of this podcast
season have obviously been tough when we've talked about the
challenges and the difficulties. I actually overall have a really
positive, I come away feeling really excited for a time where
first of all we can have these conversations and then also
we're talking about Okay, Well, what are we going to do about
all of this? And people are listening and
people are engaging in this conversation in a way that is
so, like enthusiastic and genuinely interested in like
what we can do. Even things like I was looking
yesterday on the podcast listeners.
You know, like all the audience details.
And because I was quite curious about the gender split of the
people who listened to this podcast and before I started,
because the first two seasons are more focused on like rights
and music industry and stuff. And and the split was slightly
more women than men and obviously a handful of nonbinary
and a handful of people who don't specify.
And I checked yesterday and actually it's gone up.
The number of, as in the percentage, sorry, of male
listeners has increased. And there's more male listeners
listening to this season called women in the music industry like
focusing on inclusivity and I'm like, yes, how?
Are you? Absolutely.
And and that's, I think that is so telling as well, because I
really feel like and that's probably something that I think
the music industry is quite lucky with, which is that I
think because we're quite used to talking about genre and how
an artist's sound and feeling will change over time.
I think perhaps we've got this sense of like, oh, there's you
know, a shifting way that music is being listened to, being
consumed. And we get a lot of people that
are very interested in that seasonal thing that kind of
comes around and we sort of like look at these different trends
that are happening or we look at the ways that people are
changing their listening habits and things like this.
And I think like actually it makes a lot of sense as well
that a podcast like yours is, is is like getting that that type
of listenership. And I think it does speak to A
to a change in the tides. Like I really hope that gets
represented. At a large level, but it's such
an important conversation that one that you're having you know
and and so yeah just power to it because like we basically we
kind of just need men consuming this, consuming this content
basically because. That it's kind of like as as the
women in queer groups, we're like, we know.
Yeah, I know. But at the same time as well,
but also like, I think what's interesting about it is that
like what would be great is. A conversation that's centered
around the experiences of women and queer people.
But I would say one that then is kind of like there are aspects
of that that are informed by the understanding from the male
perspective. Because I think it's like one of
those things that I don't really want to shut it down.
I'm more trying to figure out exactly why we are where we are
and and how a headspace, which is probably to that to an
individual, a largely benign headspace.
You know, I don't think anyone's out there going, I want to
subjugate women. Like, I don't think anyone's
really out there thinking that, to be honest.
Like in some places, yes. But I think to the individual in
a country like the UK that I think the issue is they're just
not thinking about it at all. And actually, if you were to
bring that conversation to them, listening to what they would
have to say in response to it would, I think, be illuminating.
And might provide some sense of how to step away from that
feeling of like just invisibility, because that's
really what it feels like, You know, It feels like there's an
invisibility issue. You know, like as a nonbinary
person in the UK, I'm not recognized legally in this
country. You know, as who I am.
It's not an option for me. And has been made very clear
that there is no, no incentive for the government to be making
any changes about that anytime soon.
And so it's it's. It's at an existential level,
but also it's at a very literal legal level that there is an
invisibility issue around the experiences of women, the
experiences of trans people, the experiences of queer people.
And I think actually if there were more people that were
willing to be part of that conversation who were men,
especially straight men, especially straight white men,
then I think ultimately like it's it's being informed, isn't
it? You know, I think the more you
know, the more you're willing to do or the more you're willing to
listen or. I think ultimately just it's
just a case of changing people's minds and that's the hard bit.
But I think that's the bit that you have to just do little bit
by little bit. And so actually the fact that
you're seeing an incremental change in your listenership in
the podcast is actually like a perfect example of like stay
consistent, keep doing what you are doing and it will catch on
because I I believe that to be true.
I really do. I think you with sounds clear,
one of the main things that we said was that we wanted to be
institutional. We didn't want to be this
passing thing that turned into something else.
We were like, we need infrastructure in the music
industry for queer people and for women.
Like we need infrastructure put down.
And we need those platforms to be built on solid foundation and
to be trustworthy and that we know that they aren't going
anywhere. And I think.
You know, what you're doing is such a testament to that because
it's like if you do just stay consistent and say we are here
and that's, you know, it's a solid thing that we are
creating. It's something that people put
their trust in. Yeah, totally.
So I'm loving this. This is excellent.
Thanks. Well, also, I think it's
important and why I was so thrilled about it is because my
perspective is similar to yours in that it's not, I think that
it's detrimental to polarize so much and I don't want ever.
Anyone to think this is some kind of like sis man bashing,
you know, seeing podcasts, Cuz that's not the point at all.
And there would be no progress for anybody if we did that.
It's like you said, it's, it's an educational piece.
It's a conversational piece. It's about, yeah, it's not about
polarizing views. It's actually about bringing
everyone together with the community and recognizing that
there's room for everybody and you're not taking anything away
from. Insist straight white men or
whatever. It's just and hearing their
perspective is really important because you can't problem solve
unless you really understand the problem.
And it's not that they as necessarily as an individual is
the problem, but it's like. The we want to get the whole
landscape and figure out OK why isn't anybody hiring these
people and and what's the logic behind that and are you and are
they understanding the full picture and and the overall
benefit of bringing everybody in all that kind of stuff.
So yeah I'm really glad about that for that like you're saying
that reason it's they these we all need to be part of this
conversation and I hope that people do feel that it's that's
the whole point it's an include inclusivity includes everybody.
Yes, exactly. It's not exactly.
What it says. For anyone else, it's just more
for the people that are underrepresented, right.
And I think that's where the tricky part comes in sometimes,
because I think sometimes it can feel like making space for
someone is the same as giving something up.
And I think a lot of people don't want to give up things
that they hold this themselves. And so it's a case of, yeah,
trying to reframe that conversation is actually making
space for someone will enrich your life.
It will add more to it. And when you're willing to make
that step, honestly, it is game changing.
And I've seen it so much in in the communities that I'm, I'm
involved in. And you know how a person
blossoms when they are both able to receive from that community,
but give to that community and allow space for people to thrive
in that community like what it does.
And there are straight white men in communities that I am part of
who are. Absolutely thriving in those
spaces and you know leaning into their, their more feminine
traits, leaning into their expression because they've been
allowed the space to do that for one.
But they also understand the value of allowing space for
other people to do that as well. And so I think it's extremely
possible and not only possible but so amazing.
It's such a beautiful journey that I'm it's just like this is
just an invitation to like come and join this because honestly
it's the best feeling in the world.
I love it, but and so I wanted to ask you the next question.
You've kind of answered it already and but maybe you want
to add to this, which is so we're we're feeling really
positive which is so nice I'm getting.
Good. Yeah, it's nice.
We're not all like because we could, we could also spend the
hour, you know, grumbling about how difficult it is.
And we're not undermining the difficulties or the challenges
in any way because they do exist.
But I also love to problem solve and I love to think about.
And share the things that we can do as individuals and also as a
community. And then also maybe if you're in
a position of a decision making power or policy maker, you know,
what are the things that you think we can do on any or all of
those levels to make the music industry more inclusive?
So I think if we were to go micro and then macro, I think
it's like at micro level I think.
Okay. So what we're doing with Sounds
Queer is kind of a micro level answer to suck to one of the
issues that marginalized communities face within the
industry. So what I would say is we need
more pockets of people who are willing to do that.
Basically someone said to me like, oh, you know, this is
actually a really good idea, You're not worried about people
replicating it. And I said no, I want as many
replications of this as possible all over the UK, all over the
world. Like, we need as many platforms
at grassroots level as possible. So if you are in a position to
mobilize even a tiny pocket of people around that, that will do
the world of good for the representation in the city that
you're in or the town that you're in, which will lend
itself to a much bigger network that ultimately props up
grassroots artists. So that's kind of micro.
And then at macro level, I think it's like.
I think there needs to be bigger conversations at the level of,
you know, these funding bodies and bodies that look to support
artists in at the kind of nascent stage of their journey.
I think there needs to be a more candid conversation about the
drawbacks of communities that are underrepresented and a more
comprehensive. Outlook on how to fund those
artists, but also how to create opportunities for those artists.
And so, you know, I would say there have been some shifts, for
example, in the Arts Council recently where you can kind of
see how it's possible for a person from a marginalized
background to gain access to funding.
But I I feel like just funding that project isn't necessarily
enough. I think there needs to be
assistance with how to bring that project from where it is to
where it's going and. And how to develop that and
perhaps that there should be more developmental, you know,
sources available to artists who like me are intersectional and
how, how do we want to create that opportunity Because I'm
sure there's there's probably smaller bodies that are offering
that at local level, but how do we, how do we access that and
how are these bodies that are responsible for funding artists,
how are they actually assisting them across the board and.
I think that probably then just comes into it at government
level as well, doesn't it? Because it's like how are we
being prioritized in those conversations when it comes down
to legislation put in place around, you know, being a
professional artist and I, I think as queer people, as women,
we all need to be able to look ahead and see what the steps are
and see how to how to get from one place to the next and at the
moment. And it just feels a bit
ambiguous. It all feels a little bit
precarious. And it's like, well, maybe you
could try this. I'm not sure.
Maybe you could try that. And it feels very sort of hand
to hand. It's a bit like there isn't
really necessarily an institutional version of that
story. It's kind of like, well, this
person runs this thing, maybe you could speak to them.
And it doesn't really feel like there's much much of A
solidified conversation around what the steps are.
And so I feel like as an industry.
We need to be creating more of a road map for female artists and
for queer artists to reference, because that's we.
One of the big problems that we have actually, is that we we
suffer from a lack of reference points because the story is by
and large from a community that isn't, isn't ours or doesn't
resonate with us. It's like it's hard to find
those reference points, especially when you know, for
the queer community anyway, it's like.
Someone said to me once, it's like always stuck with me.
You know, queer people aren't allowed to fail.
Basically, you have to arrive fully formed, ready to go.
And if you're not perfect on arrival, that's it.
See you later. And and because we have that
headspace, when an artist who's starting out sees that, they
assume that that is what they have to be at without any
reference of how to get there. We don't see a lot of the
process. And so I think because of that
as well, I think we, I think we miss a lot of amazing artists
actually. I think a lot of people get
discouraged quite early on because they can't understand
how they're supposed to be that huge artist or that that person
who's probably been working at it for years and but we don't
see any of that process, you know, it's not available to us
and so. And maybe there just needs to be
a bit more, a bit more of a mentorship culture around that
as well, like where we go, well, you know, actually here, here
are some channels by which you can kind of gauge the journey of
an artist he's similar to you and maybe we could be working to
create platforms like that as well, you know.
But yeah, so I think, yeah, to to put a finer point in it, at
micro level, we just need more platforms, small communities
working together, even if that's five or six people.
At macro level, we need to figure out what is the road map
of an artist from this background and how do we help
them, you know, get to those points in their journey.
And because really that's what we need funding into, it's what
we need research into as well. Like research is, you know, we
need data which we don't have and you know all of these things
that comes into into that same thing.
It's like who are they? Where are they?
You know, how old are they, how you know how many of them are
there? Like all of these things, you
just have no data. To say one way or another, and
because there's no data, it's like, well, there's not an
issue, you know? Yeah, and also without the data.
Yeah. And also, what do they need?
I think it's a very comprehensive argument, a whole
assessment. I really feel like we should
just write that down and send it off to someone who should put
all of those actions in place. Because I love what you're
saying about we need joined up thinking from the industry to
support these communities and of marginalized people.
But also one thing that really stuck with me that you said was
about when you receive funding and you get support with that
funding to complete your project that yeah, think about what does
that person actually need? And this goes back to what you
said earlier about the. Specific challenges that are
faced by queer and non binary and trans people as opposed to
the challenges that would be faced by a fist like man is that
they might need some more nurturing and support and
mentorship around like you said, around identity, around
overcoming even things like well because you're more likely to
come across discrimination and violence and so you might need
to support with that kind of stuff so.
It's like tailoring the support that you're offering to the
people to what they actually need rather than going back to
what you said earlier. Just assuming the flatline is
white straight man and this is what the white straight man
would need to be supported to develop their career in the
music industry. Because it's not the same,
obviously. I know the lived experience is
so different. I mean, like, and this is an
unfortunate thing, but like, I am connected to a number of
artists that have experienced any number of, you know,
domestic issues. As in, I am experiencing
houselessness because I can't stay at home with my family
because I'm unsafe in that environment.
Now if you say something, we're going to give you 10 grand to
make an album. So it's like, yeah, but I don't
have a house, you know? And so it's like, you know, yes,
of course that's positive and everything, but there are so
many things going on in the lived experience of these people
where it's like, you know, for example.
You know, just offhand a very simple thing that you could be
providing as a funding body to people from marginalized
backgrounds or people that have experienced violence because of
their gender or sexuality is saying part of this fund is
going towards therapy. You know, like part of that is
for that because actually you know people from from these
communities by and large can't actually afford access to care
like that. That would actually really,
really help them. And so maybe there is something
that you go, well, actually part of this is to do with your
mental health as well, and which is an extremely important part
of the journey and the process for any queer artist and any
female artist. And so it feels like, yeah, it's
not comprehensive enough, right. It's not answering enough
questions. And what's funny is that
actually, you know. I've met a number of people from
from, you know, Arts Council boards and all of these sorts of
things. And what's funny is that they
are hugely diverse and extremely mixed bag of human beings.
And so it's funny that these conversations haven't reached
that level yet. But at the same time I also
understand, again, you know Christ's tradition.
This is how things have always been done, all of these things
and also an issue of like funding being just slashed and
slashed and slashed within an inch of its life and.
So. Yeah, I understand there's less
to go around overall than there was, but also it's kind of like
we don't have to. It's not a case of funding,
finding more money, even though it should be also a case of
finding more money. That would be nice and I believe
it's out there somewhere, but it's also the case of just, I
think, getting a bit more. Going into more of the niches of
a person's lived experience and understanding that the lived
experience of every artist is just not the same, and perhaps
funding should be more means tested based on your situation.
And I'm sure that would be the case for a lot of people and
would no doubt do a lot for them as well.
Yeah, I think what you said about tradition is so.
Poignant because I think a lot of times like you said it's it's
a case of the not thinking can be the problem because it's
like, oh, we just do it this way because this is the way it's
always been done. And I heard, I read once this
hilarious story and I can't remember from which book.
I'm like I just devour books so I can never remember which one
it was that I read it. But I think it's coming it's my
brain is telling me that it was from.
What's her name? Glennon Doyle, I think her name
is she wrote a book. It's a great story about how she
leaves her husband and marries a woman and it's just fun.
And I think it was never it could be wrong.
Anyway. The story is that she there's,
she has this friend who she goes around and they're American and
they're making Thanksgiving dinner and the friend cuts the
top off the Turkey and and cooks the top of the Turkey and the
bottom of the Turkey separately in the oven.
And she says to her friend, why do you do it like that?
And she's like, oh, I don't know.
It's just that that's how my mom always did it.
So I thought, that's how you cook a Turkey.
And then she's like, I'm going to call my mom and ask her,
like, why do you cook the Turkey like that?
And the mom says, oh, I cook the Turkey like that because when I
was a kid, my mom cooked the Turkey like that because we had
a really small oven and the Turkey wouldn't fit.
So 3 generations of women are cutting the top off a Turkey
when they've got ovens that would fit the Turkey.
And I just love this story because it really illustrates
that you don't just do things because you've seen someone else
do it or because that's the way it's always been done.
You have to question. Why are you doing it that way?
And does that way still serve the needs of the people that
you're doing it for? I mean, likewise, I also used to
date a Carpenter and he used to say to me that one of the catch
phrases they had was never knocked down a wall until you
know why it was built because obviously the house could fall
down if you've knocked down the wrong wall.
So I balanced those two stories in my mind of like, don't take
any rash ax of action and knock the house down, but at the same
time just find out why. And question whether this system
or this process or whatever is serving the people.
And there's so many things in life that where you're if you
look into it, I find it so fascinating where it's like the
reason why you know it will be like a gadget or something.
The reason why this. Someone was saying like
Microsoft Word, like the save button is a floppy disk.
The floppy disk don't exist anymore.
So it's like why is it that? But it's fine cuz it meets the
needs of what it needs to do. So yeah, it's really important
to question tradition and find out why it's done that way and
consider reconsider whether it really is serving the needs of
the community that it's supposed to.
Yeah, totally. And I think it's also because we
want this. I think that, well, a lot of
people want this feeling of, yes, solid foundation.
Because actually, in a lot of ways what we're suggesting here
is like, except the chaos, except the fluidity.
We're going to change all the time and we should be changing
with the times and all of these things.
And we're saying this, but actually.
To a certain type of person, that is hell because they're
like, no, a society needs to be structured and have rules and
the things that we need to keep us all in a similar head space
and working towards a common goal and so.
I understand the the difficulty around asking a person to come
around to this way of thinking, but again, it's like you say
we're not. What we're not saying is burn it
down and start again. Although sometimes I get really
frustrated and do have that thought.
But it's more of a case of let's assess every aspect of this,
find out what should stay and find out what needs to, what
needs to go and what needs to just evolve.
And I think sometimes as well, and I don't know if you've felt
the same way, I'm sure you probably have at some point or
another where you look at the scale and size of the task in
front of you and go, yeah, this is huge and will require a lot
from a lot of people. And I can feel exhausted by it.
And it's basically a matter of. Urgency for a person like me to
be involved in this. Now imagine that you aren't a
person like me looking at the size of that, and it doesn't
feel like it directly benefits you.
It's not going to feel like an imperative at all.
They're going to be going to be like there are so many other
things going on, why on earth would I be working so hard to
prioritize something like this? And it's a difficult question to
answer if a person asks you because it's like, well,
actually. It's not that you have
specifically any reason, but it's more of a case of are you
able to take a step back and look at the big picture and
understand that your experience is one of many and that actually
you could do a small amount that would count for so much?
And are you willing to do that? And if you're not, just kind of
why, you know, why are you in a position where you're not
willing to do something that would really, really help?
A lot of people that are all around you, and I think that's
where the sort of visibility element comes into it.
This is why we need these pockets of communities all over
the place. Because actually people think,
oh, these people are nowhere near me, they're often some
other place or they they go to London, they go to Manchester,
whatever it is. And like they they exist in
those places and they should take care of themselves.
But actually it's more of a case of like literally all around
you. Like it's literally, you know,
it touches every single person in some way or another.
And actually, if we can practice.
This giving energy at that level, it will no doubt feed out
into every other element of our lives.
And so it's, I would say, if anything, it's this kind of like
very accessible way to get into into a more welcoming community.
You know, like there's there's definitely niches which are
harder to perceive and harder to understand, but it's like
actually like, you know, female inclusivity.
Trans inclusivity and queer inclusivity.
Is this you everywhere? Yes, on your doorstep.
You can get it tomorrow if you wanted it.
Like literally. It's just it's all around you.
It's very available. So basically I just think, take
the opportunity, you know? Great.
So before I ask you the final question that I'm asking
everybody in this season, is there anything else that you
want to say, anything you want to shine a light on that you
haven't had an opportunity to so far?
I don't know. It's been such a such a big
conversation. It's been really, really lovely.
And so I think I feel like off the top of my head I feel like
we've covered quite quite a lot there.
I think in my mind coming into this, I knew that I wanted to
talk about sounds queer and it actually it's really, really
nice because I feel like we've talked about it a lot, which is
really, really great and just I guess just kind of reiterating
the importance of of looking to see what's around you because
actually it's like. I think sometimes we can get
into this, this sense of not necessarily a monotony, but we
kind of get caught in rhythms. And I suppose I something that I
really try to practice with, practice with myself, because I
do the same thing as I get caught in a rhythm and forget to
just look for a second. And actually when you do, you're
kind of inviting a lot of a lot of new experiences and a lot of
ways to look at the world that you wouldn't have thought of
before. And so I just think.
I think that's probably like if you wanted to do very little,
but the trend just one time and honestly it is a game changer.
And so I guess that's probably all I wanted to say well.
I hope that's very encouraging and you're making it sound, like
you said, very accessible, very easy, and very rewarding for
very little efforts. I was at an event the other day
and. This person who was a straight
white man who was the manager of this venue, just checked my
pronouns before we started talking and honestly, I could
have cried. It was like the loveliest thing.
And I was like, great, exactly what we need.
Tiniest little thing in the world, and it means so much, you
know, to someone like me. And so I think whatever it is,
like whatever version of that sentence it is just practicing a
little bit of awareness. Is, Yeah.
It just counts for so much. Lovely.
So as you know, in this season it's, it's called Women in the
Music Industry. But I wanted to make an extra
effort to make sure that everybody knows, if you don't,
if you never met me before that my understanding of feminism is
intersectional and inclusive and involves making everybody feel
welcome and included. So I'm extra extra grateful for
you talking to us today and sharing your perspective as
well. So the question that I have been
asking the other guests who were identifying as female was who
was their favorite female Music Maker?
But obviously for you. I really would love for you to
shine a light on any favorite queer or non binary or trans
basically. Anybody from the group that we
want to include and just who is your a favorite?
Because obviously it would be very hard to pick one and
basically I was hoping for like an all time ever.
Kind of fave and then maybe somebody more recently that you
are admiring or appreciating. Yeah, this is such a big one,
isn't it? Because I I really feel like
there's just this like growing list of extremely wonderful
individuals who are making music.
And I think if I were to kind of go, it's funny really actually,
because when I think about this, I do think of a lot of women
because I feel like there is, over time, the challenge of.
Traditional femininity through music has been so prominent.
And so like, if I think about it, like the people that flashed
into my mind are people like Patti Smith and PJ Harvey who
were like challenging the preconception of what femininity
is, especially in musical spheres and and things like
this. So if I would say like a kind of
all time like I I actually adore Patti Smith basically.
And like I've got so much time for that woman and like I think
her. Journey as well, has been so
telling of such an individual perspective on what her humanity
is and what her understanding of the world is.
And really that's what we're looking for, is nuance.
And so it's inspiring to see that exploration of nuance.
And because I see that as an invitation and in a lot of ways
I can thank people like her for the journey that I am on because
it's like, hey, don't accept status quo, you know, figure out
who you as an individual are. And then I suppose actually in
terms of that because actually thinking about it now the other
person I'm thinking of as well is that is is self esteem and
who's obviously more more recent artist and like, but actually in
so many ways such an echo of that ethos.
Because so unashamedly talking about her lived experience and
how that is both celebratory and beautiful, but extremely complex
and extremely difficult as well. And also so ready to talk about
her experiences within the industry as well, you know,
like, so, so ready to be like, well, actually this is what's
this is what makes it so hard. And you know, the fact that
she's so ready to offer that up to us, I just think is such an
inspiration because it would be so easy to be saying, well,
there's difficulty, but whatever, I'm fabulous, which is
obviously the truth, but to be able to say.
Actually, it's really hard. And I have suffered as a result
of that difficulty. And she's making pop music.
It's incredible. Like absolutely incredible.
And I saw her live show about a year ago and it was just this
absolute pantheon of female power.
It was like watching femininity unfold and like, you know,
emerge from this human, like actually just talking about
like, but also just the the beauty and like the community
around there. And you know, she's got these
performers on the stage with her and so much of the iconography
is around them, leaning on each other and working with each
other. And it really echoes everything
that she's saying. And I just think it's such an
inspiring thing that she's doing.
So there are plenty of other artists that I could like speak
for absolutely days about, but I would say Patti Smith, self
esteem, definitely. I love that.
I love your answers, especially because, like you said, what I
really loved is when you said that they offer you an
invitation of individualism. And that real, genuine
authenticity of what it's like to be an actual person, going
through something and struggling and and being authentic.
I also love to have Steve. I've got a funny story.
Well, not a funny story, but a story.
And I because I appreciate her for all of the reasons that you
said, but I have extra reason to appreciate her as what I would
call. This is like my definition of
the power of permanentity is not in all of the reasons that
you've said as well, but what she did something once that I
witnessed that I was like, that's why you're a fucking
epic, amazing woman. Basically, I went to the Mercury
Awards in London and we went into the building and into the
reception and we went to sit down for dinner and then the
Queen died, Remember So. They cancelled the show.
She was up for a nomination, She was going to perform, They
cancelled the show. And as part, if you're watching
the show, you also get this like ridiculous three course meals,
all this food and alcohol and everything, and they're like,
everyone has to leave right now. And I was like.
What are they going to do with all of that food?
Like, what a waste Because we will.
It would already have been cooked.
We were sitting down for dinner and I remember the person I was
with being like, you're just saying that cause you're hungry
because I was like they should let us eat like oh, do something
with this fish. I was hungry but I was genuinely
thinking this is a horrific waste of food.
Like I don't know how many people, like 500 people in that
room do you know what I mean? All about sit down for three
course meal and you're just telling us to leave.
Respects to the Queen, but like what are you going to do about
this? And so this is my initial
thought but like, I'm just, I don't feel that I have the power
to do anything about the situation and I just get hustled
off out of the room with everybody else.
And then I see self esteem on Twitter basically being like.
Get this food to the homeless, get this food to the shelter.
Like, get this food to like we're not leaving this building
until they have packaged up all this food.
And she was incredible. She singlehandedly, you know,
ensured that that food did not go to waste and there was this
hole that she connected with like a local restaurant that
because obviously it was like a roast dinner or something, I
don't know what it was. And they basically turned them
into like, bats and wraps so that you could just take one.
Yeah, And then like gave them to people who were maybe on the
street or off in the shelter or anything like that.
And and I was just like, for me, that is feminism.
That is caring about people, having compassion and having the
will. She would give a shit about the
fact that the show had been cancelled and she was maybe up
for a mercury and all of that stuff.
She didn't care. She wanted to make sure that
that food didn't go to waste and it went to people who needed it.
And I was just like, this woman is my absolute hero.
I remember those tweets that she put out and it was so great.
She was like doing all the updates as well.
Like this restaurant's taking this honestly, such an amazing
moment, isn't it? And actually such that's just so
the person that she is. I actually, I met her recently
and I was like, so. I mean, I was really lame about
it. Like when I met her, I was like,
Oh my God, I just love you. And she was just like so
hilariously relaxed about the entire situation.
I was like, really, really not doing a relaxed version of
myself. And yeah, just the way that she
was, like, she just stood and listened to me for a little
while. I was like, do you mind if I
just blow smoke up your ass for, like, a couple of minutes?
Is that all right? And we did.
And then she was like, great. Yeah.
Should we just hug it out now? It's like, yeah, great.
Cool. Thank you.
She just could tell what I was needing at that moment.
She's like, you just need this right now.
And it's fine. Yeah, I'll let you have it.
Not a legend. What a legend.
Well, thank you so much, Diva. It's been an absolute pleasure
to talk to you today. I really appreciate it.
And I will put all of the links to anything that you've
mentioned and anything else that you want me to put for people to
follow and check out more about the initiatives that you
mentioned. So hopefully people have
listened and we'll take on your suggestions and do a bit of
research as well and follow. And any links that we put in to
kind of learn more about this perspective because it was
really important for me to be able to include this.
So I'm genuinely so, so grateful for your time and for sharing
and being vulnerable and talking about your experience.
I really appreciate it. Thank you.
Thank you so much. Been such a pleasure.
Thanks for listening, and if you enjoyed this episode, please
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