1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:06,700 Is it anyway. Anyway. 2 00:00:07,700 --> 00:00:10,700 Hello and welcome to whose song is it anyway. 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:12,400 I'm dr. Haley Bosher. 4 00:00:12,500 --> 00:00:15,500 And for this special season of the podcast focusing on women in 5 00:00:15,500 --> 00:00:17,900 the music industry I'll be your host. 6 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,600 Well Nadia, thank you so much for coming on. 7 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,300 The Whose Line Is It Anyway podcast and welcome to Abbey 8 00:00:26,300 --> 00:00:29,000 Road Studios today. Very exciting to be here. 9 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,900 Thanks for having me. So can you introduce yourself 10 00:00:31,900 --> 00:00:35,200 for our listeners and tell us a little bit about you and what 11 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:36,700 you do? Yeah, sure. 12 00:00:36,700 --> 00:00:39,700 So my name is Nadia Khan. I've been working in the music 13 00:00:39,700 --> 00:00:43,200 industry for over 20 years. I started out pretty much a 14 00:00:43,208 --> 00:00:45,400 music management. I've been doing music management 15 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,400 for most of that time and like so many others in the industry. 16 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,500 My fingers and lots of Pies. I'm also the founder of women in 17 00:00:52,508 --> 00:00:55,300 control. It's a nonprofit organization. 18 00:00:55,300 --> 00:00:59,200 I set up around six years ago, to empower women in the music 19 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,100 industry to leadership positions. 20 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,300 And it was very much birth from kind of my own experiences in 21 00:01:04,308 --> 00:01:08,800 the industry and leading on from that as well, kind of fits into 22 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:10,900 it. I'm also chair of Aim, so I was 23 00:01:10,900 --> 00:01:14,700 sitting on the board of aim since 2017 and following some 24 00:01:14,700 --> 00:01:18,000 research that I've done with women in control, looking at the 25 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,100 representation of women in Leadership roles and the Board 26 00:01:21,100 --> 00:01:23,900 Room, I realized there weren't many chairs at the time. 27 00:01:23,900 --> 00:01:26,900 There's only one other chair that was a woman and that kind 28 00:01:26,900 --> 00:01:29,500 of encouraged me to put myself forward and I got elected as 29 00:01:29,500 --> 00:01:33,600 chair of aim in 2021 as well. So you doing all the things. 30 00:01:33,700 --> 00:01:37,400 Yeah busy woman. So thanks so much for your time 31 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,700 cuz you're doing other things. What made you like, what first 32 00:01:41,700 --> 00:01:43,200 brought you to the music industry? 33 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,800 I think when I was at school I didn't have a clue what I was 34 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,400 doing and those who send me to the careers. 35 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:50,600 Bree. And I was looking at these 36 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,000 folders and nothing appealed to me and I was studying media 37 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,600 studies in a level and my teacher at the time, just gave 38 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,100 me a book about the music industry because I think you'd 39 00:02:00,100 --> 00:02:02,600 be great in the music industry, I gave me a book. 40 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,100 So I read through this book and it had all these different job 41 00:02:05,100 --> 00:02:07,600 roles in there. It said what a tour manager does 42 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:09,900 what an A&R does. And I read this book in two 43 00:02:09,900 --> 00:02:13,900 roles, stood out to me, public relations and management. 44 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:15,900 I was like, oh, I think I want to do this. 45 00:02:15,900 --> 00:02:19,600 So I made a plan at the time I wasn't living in London and the 46 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:21,500 So I decided that I wanted to come to London. 47 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,800 I'm going to start in PR do 10 years in PR, and then I'm going 48 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,500 to go into management. I kind of made a plan of what I 49 00:02:27,508 --> 00:02:30,900 wanted to do and how I wanted to break into the music industry. 50 00:02:31,500 --> 00:02:34,100 I feel like it's so it's kind of like a calling for you really 51 00:02:34,100 --> 00:02:37,100 like you just felt like this is where you will Thrive. 52 00:02:37,100 --> 00:02:40,600 This is where you'll fit in like was it kind of the music or it 53 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,400 was the you felt like you don't put words in your mouth you 54 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:46,500 don't even like for you. What about it? 55 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:50,500 Felt like home. It was just for me when I read 56 00:02:50,500 --> 00:02:52,600 management. I was like this is what I want 57 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:54,400 to do this, just ticks all the boxes. 58 00:02:54,700 --> 00:02:58,000 I thought I was really ambitious and I just honed in on it and I 59 00:02:58,008 --> 00:03:01,900 just was determined to be a manager and I said made it like 60 00:03:01,900 --> 00:03:03,700 a 10-year plan. I'm going to, you know, break 61 00:03:03,700 --> 00:03:07,000 into the industry do PR for a bit build some contacts up and 62 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,600 then I'll get into management eventually and I give myself a 63 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,400 10-year timeline to do that. What actually happened was, I 64 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,000 ended up getting into management within two years of me sorting, 65 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:20,000 so I got work experience. Moment, first of all, remember, 66 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,400 applying coming to London and just trying to get a foot in the 67 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,300 door in the industry and you know, I don't come from a really 68 00:03:27,300 --> 00:03:30,700 well off background. I had to pay rent at the time 69 00:03:31,100 --> 00:03:34,200 and at the time, a lot of the music industry entry roles were 70 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,800 expected to be free. They were unpaid roles. 71 00:03:37,100 --> 00:03:40,600 So I had to work on the weekends, work on the evening. 72 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:44,000 So, I had a bookstore that I had at the weekends at a computer 73 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,300 fair, and I did it evening job and end up getting this 925 work 74 00:03:47,300 --> 00:03:50,000 experience. It was only for two weeks by 75 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,400 went in there with the mentality that I'm not leaving. 76 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,000 I'm going to just be the best work experience in turn. 77 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,500 They've ever had ever and they did keep me for three, four 78 00:03:58,500 --> 00:04:00,600 months. I ended up staying unpaid. 79 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,500 And then I finally plucked up the courage to ask for a job. 80 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,600 And I got my first role in the industry and that was doing PR. 81 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,100 So I started doing Digital, Press National broadcast prayers 82 00:04:11,900 --> 00:04:15,900 and ended up Rising quite quickly up in up in this company 83 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,100 and I was living in East London at the time. 84 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:20,500 As well. And it was around the time, that 85 00:04:20,500 --> 00:04:23,600 Grime music was just starting. It was just emerging. 86 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,700 So I was actually meeting a lot of the MCS and rappers and I 87 00:04:27,700 --> 00:04:32,100 really resonated with them me coming from, you know that like 88 00:04:32,100 --> 00:04:35,900 kind of lower income background and just trying to get my foot 89 00:04:35,900 --> 00:04:39,000 in the door in the industry and trying to make it. 90 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,300 And I felt really resonated with these guys that were trying to 91 00:04:42,300 --> 00:04:44,800 build something at the time, there wasn't a scene there was 92 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,400 just a belief that we can do this and we can make it 93 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,600 independently. Really entrepreneur spirit and 94 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,600 Hustler mentality. So I started working with a lot 95 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,400 of the grime, guys. A lot of the MCS and that's how 96 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,500 I met my first management. Client, lethal, Bizzle who I 97 00:04:59,508 --> 00:05:02,600 still managed to this day. So we're managing him now for 98 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,400 over 18 years. And yeah then eventually I just 99 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:07,200 left and just started my own company. 100 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:11,300 Just really after being in the pr company for two and a half 101 00:05:11,300 --> 00:05:13,200 three years. I really accelerated that 102 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,900 Journey but it just felt right at the time and I've just always 103 00:05:16,900 --> 00:05:20,100 followed my passions. So I was just so passionate, so 104 00:05:20,100 --> 00:05:21,300 ambitious. And then when I saw the 105 00:05:21,300 --> 00:05:23,500 opportunities, I just kick that door open. 106 00:05:23,900 --> 00:05:25,000 I love it. I mean, you're absolutely 107 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,400 smashing it to be honest. Like I'm just so in awe of like 108 00:05:29,500 --> 00:05:32,400 everything that you're doing and I just love this whole idea of 109 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:33,400 you. Like, I've got to do it in 10 110 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,700 years, I did it into. I just when I look back I think. 111 00:05:37,700 --> 00:05:42,100 Wow, you were really ballsy. You just had doesn't take no for 112 00:05:42,100 --> 00:05:45,600 an answer and at the time, you know, I make it sound like oh 113 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,400 yeah, I mean, I did it in two but the reality of that You 114 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,200 know, when I said to lethal, Bizzle, let me be your manager. 115 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,900 You know, I got laughed at not by him, but he was signed to a 116 00:05:53,900 --> 00:05:56,100 record label. He had people around him and 117 00:05:56,100 --> 00:05:58,900 they said absolutely not she can't be the manager and they 118 00:05:58,908 --> 00:06:02,400 said no to me and they actually got another manager who was from 119 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:06,600 a big company. A big male manager who had a lot 120 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:08,900 of clients who had a lot of experience behind him. 121 00:06:09,300 --> 00:06:10,900 And I said, right, what do I do now? 122 00:06:10,900 --> 00:06:12,600 This is like, I feel like this is my calling. 123 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,100 This is my dream client. I want to work with him so I 124 00:06:15,108 --> 00:06:17,800 didn't take no for an answer. I said, well, can I Shadow you 125 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:19,200 then? Cuz I'm being told, I don't have 126 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,700 management experience. Let me come to all the meetings, 127 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,100 I came to all the meetings, took notes and was pulling that 128 00:06:25,100 --> 00:06:28,500 manager up on everything and bringing new ideas to the table 129 00:06:28,500 --> 00:06:30,300 as well. Which resulted in, you know, 130 00:06:30,300 --> 00:06:34,200 three months later him leaving. I don't know why he left, but he 131 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:43,400 nice. And I think that's something 132 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,300 that I hear a lot from other women in the music industry, 133 00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:50,200 especially when I do, Like I said, dress, miniskirts least 134 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,400 wear high heels all the time. And I felt like I just got 135 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:56,700 judged by how I looked right. When I started out that, I just 136 00:06:56,700 --> 00:06:58,600 know if we're not taking you seriously, you can't be the 137 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:00,800 manager, are you crazy? Like, people looked at me like I 138 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,000 was just delusional to think that I could be the manager and 139 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,600 that in a way drove me to want to do it more. 140 00:07:06,900 --> 00:07:09,000 So yeah. I'm I'm thankful that I didn't 141 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,200 take no for an answer now. Well, we are all thankful, like, 142 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,500 proud of you doing great. I'm interested to know about 143 00:07:15,500 --> 00:07:18,000 that. Ability to not question your 144 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:19,700 Cell phone someone laughs at you. 145 00:07:19,700 --> 00:07:21,900 Like, you know, laughs you're off like Debbie ridiculous. 146 00:07:21,900 --> 00:07:23,900 You can't do that because there must be something in you that's 147 00:07:23,900 --> 00:07:26,800 like, yes, I can. Yeah, I turn out where it comes 148 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:28,100 from. I think it's my childhood, I 149 00:07:28,100 --> 00:07:31,800 really had a really independent childhood in a way where, you 150 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,100 know, I was a carer for my mom. She was Ill when I was growing 151 00:07:35,100 --> 00:07:38,100 up and then also, with my mum getting sick, there was a lot of 152 00:07:38,100 --> 00:07:41,100 displacement in my family. So they end up shipping me off 153 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,800 to another country to live with some family members. 154 00:07:43,900 --> 00:07:46,800 So, I was traveling quite a bit back and forth and I think that 155 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,900 gave me a different perspective. If I didn't have a small town 156 00:07:49,900 --> 00:07:54,100 perspective or a small vision for my life, even though we came 157 00:07:54,100 --> 00:07:57,600 from a low income background, I never felt that I was lower or 158 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,700 smaller, I'd been traveling and I felt that I could do anything. 159 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,900 So I felt really Untouchable and then when I was being treated 160 00:08:05,900 --> 00:08:08,100 differently, it just didn't match how I felt about myself. 161 00:08:08,100 --> 00:08:11,500 So I think I was brought up through my circumstances, it 162 00:08:11,500 --> 00:08:14,600 just her, let me help me to build a lot of self-esteem and 163 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:19,000 say I need more for myself and because of my Doubled, kind of 164 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,200 upbringing. I also wanted more for myself 165 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:26,000 and I just had a fight in me. I think so I just was ready for 166 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:27,200 the fight. I was like bring it on. 167 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,100 Let's go for it. I'm going to do this. 168 00:08:29,100 --> 00:08:31,000 I'm going to prove myself because I really wanted it. 169 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,600 I really wanted, you know, this artist and I really wanted this 170 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,400 career and I really want you to be successful at it. 171 00:08:36,500 --> 00:08:38,700 It really resonates with me because I also come from a 172 00:08:38,700 --> 00:08:43,500 low-income background, and that kind of my childhood was about 173 00:08:43,500 --> 00:08:47,700 survival and that I also have a fire in my belly. 174 00:08:47,700 --> 00:08:51,500 And I Exactly know, how to articulate, how that translates. 175 00:08:51,500 --> 00:08:54,900 But there's something there about that survival nature. 176 00:08:54,900 --> 00:08:57,700 And also what you said about wanting more for myself, that 177 00:08:57,700 --> 00:09:00,500 motivated me for sure. But there's one thing and then 178 00:09:00,500 --> 00:09:03,100 there's actually having like you said the balls to do it. 179 00:09:03,100 --> 00:09:05,500 Yeah. And I do struggle with a little 180 00:09:05,500 --> 00:09:09,100 bit self-esteem sometimes and self-worth and all that stuff. 181 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,600 But there's something in me that's like, don't tell me I 182 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,900 can't do something because I will do it twice over with 183 00:09:15,900 --> 00:09:18,000 standing on my head. Like, and I don't know where 184 00:09:18,100 --> 00:09:20,500 Where it comes from, whether it's like, at some point. 185 00:09:20,500 --> 00:09:22,800 When I said that, I was thinking of mine and for some reason 186 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:27,500 because she's like that. Like, so, you know, life is 187 00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:30,400 hard, life is gritty in a council estate, like that's what 188 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,300 it was like, but it was very like you, I'm doing this, with 189 00:09:33,300 --> 00:09:34,700 surviving. We're going to make life better. 190 00:09:34,700 --> 00:09:36,200 And, you know, we're gonna get through. 191 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:38,500 And there's that kind of resilience. 192 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:40,600 Yeah. They're so what you've said 193 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,900 really kind of I feel that has been something for me anyway 194 00:09:44,900 --> 00:09:48,900 that as you know, you harness into a Advantage. 195 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,000 Yeah, exactly. I think I wouldn't be in the 196 00:09:51,008 --> 00:09:53,500 position I am. Now, I wouldn't have had the 197 00:09:53,500 --> 00:09:57,000 career, I had if I didn't have those struggles and those 198 00:09:57,300 --> 00:09:59,900 challenges to overcome, when I was younger, it just made me 199 00:09:59,900 --> 00:10:02,400 really resilient. It made me just, I think like 200 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:03,900 the boys word, you said, survival. 201 00:10:04,100 --> 00:10:08,000 I had this survival Instinct, so when people were saying, no, it 202 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:09,800 wasn't a new thing experience to me. 203 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,100 I said, I've experienced this before, I'm going to show you, 204 00:10:12,100 --> 00:10:15,600 I'm going to prove it to you, and I had this Knack of turning 205 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:21,000 a negative experience and And letting it fuel me to say really 206 00:10:21,100 --> 00:10:22,700 I'll show you. I will do that. 207 00:10:22,700 --> 00:10:25,700 I will do that and actually changing and channeling that 208 00:10:25,700 --> 00:10:28,900 energy rather than letting it defeat me and make me push me 209 00:10:28,900 --> 00:10:30,800 down and make me feel like I can't do anything. 210 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,500 It just spurred me on even more. Yeah, I love it. 211 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,200 So you touched on some of the things already, but what would 212 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:42,200 you say is one of the challenges or maybe the biggest challenge 213 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,400 that you found as a woman working in the music industry? 214 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,000 Yes. I went through this big fight. 215 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:53,200 Even get the job of manager and then when I got the job I faced 216 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:58,500 so many things on a daily basis. So you know first of all just 217 00:10:58,700 --> 00:11:02,100 people thinking that oh I can just she's a young girl I can 218 00:11:02,100 --> 00:11:04,900 just call her you know as a matter Lee 20s I can just call 219 00:11:04,900 --> 00:11:08,400 her and just shout at her. I can bully her, I can be 220 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,000 aggressive so there was a lot of that happening in the early days 221 00:11:11,300 --> 00:11:14,200 and I thought but I can't go to, who can I go too? 222 00:11:14,300 --> 00:11:16,800 I work for myself. I'm independent. 223 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:18,600 I can't go and complain to my Artist. 224 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,900 I had to deal with this myself. I have to learn how to deal with 225 00:11:21,900 --> 00:11:27,200 these situations, and then also, which on a daily basis. 226 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,300 My my career of just being a manager, the experience was 227 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,800 walking into a room and just being completely ignored being 228 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:40,000 assumed to be a girlfriend. A groupie going backstage at 229 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,300 Torres that I've put on that, I'm running or I'm doing the 230 00:11:43,300 --> 00:11:46,800 production on and I'm leading on and just go again, walking 231 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,300 backstage and just being To be just unimportant or being 232 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,900 invisible. So many times I've walked into 233 00:11:53,100 --> 00:11:54,800 video shoots and I'm the commissioner because we're 234 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,700 independent, we do a lot of releases independently, I run 235 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,100 are independent, record labels. I'm commissioning these video 236 00:12:00,100 --> 00:12:02,400 shoots. I walk in and somebody might 237 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,200 even to say to me, you're the stylist, or you the makeup 238 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,100 artist or you, the extra all the time is happened to me. 239 00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:09,300 This happened to me two months ago. 240 00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:11,900 I went to one of our video shoots and I had a bag for my 241 00:12:11,900 --> 00:12:15,200 artist and of some things that he wanted or something's arrived 242 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,200 for him. And as soon as I walked in the 243 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,000 reception said, oh, so either makeup artist for the shoe said, 244 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,300 no, I'm the manager and I always get that response that jump that 245 00:12:24,300 --> 00:12:28,200 the reaction because people don't do it to be offensive. 246 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:32,300 They don't mean to be, it's part of society and gender structures 247 00:12:32,300 --> 00:12:35,800 that we have in place that we assume these roles for a woman 248 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,800 to, they don't expect me to be the boss. 249 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,100 They don't expect me to be the manager, they don't expect me to 250 00:12:41,100 --> 00:12:43,900 be the person in charge, so don't blame them for it. 251 00:12:43,900 --> 00:12:47,700 But there is a consequence to facing that every day. 252 00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:51,100 It chips away at me, and if, you know, it chipped away at my 253 00:12:51,100 --> 00:12:53,300 confidence. So we spoke about me being 254 00:12:53,300 --> 00:12:56,900 really ballsy. And then if I fast forward, 10 255 00:12:56,900 --> 00:13:00,600 years of me being a manager, I was a bit of a shell of myself. 256 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,100 I was a bit insulated. I felt quite isolated. 257 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,700 I felt like I'd lost my confidence because I was 258 00:13:06,700 --> 00:13:09,700 constantly having these experiences or feeling like an 259 00:13:09,700 --> 00:13:12,600 invisible woman and I was a confident person. 260 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,300 So I was looking at myself going, why, what am I doing 261 00:13:15,300 --> 00:13:17,500 wrong? Is it my image? 262 00:13:17,500 --> 00:13:19,500 Is that the way A I look like, what can I do? 263 00:13:19,500 --> 00:13:22,100 How do I present myself more serious? 264 00:13:22,100 --> 00:13:25,600 To be taken more seriously? So that was the biggest 265 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,700 challenge that I've had during my career because it was really 266 00:13:29,700 --> 00:13:32,800 upsetting for me, too. I've been on Festival stages 267 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,200 while my artist is performing and I've been thrown off and 268 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,400 guys, that work for me are staying on. 269 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,500 And once I started to acknowledge these experiences, 270 00:13:40,500 --> 00:13:43,400 it just was crushing me day on Day Day. 271 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,600 And it's just, we talk about these microaggressions and this 272 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,800 kind of I've liked it. Like compound interest kind of 273 00:13:49,900 --> 00:13:52,700 effect that it has. You don't realize it's not one 274 00:13:52,700 --> 00:13:56,000 thing that you can pinpoint, but it's just this constant thing of 275 00:13:56,100 --> 00:13:59,600 these experiences everyday and it just crushed me. 276 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,700 And it crushed my spirit and I lost myself, you know, in, in 277 00:14:02,700 --> 00:14:06,100 the way, I think, what you said about chipping away is how I 278 00:14:06,100 --> 00:14:07,900 relate to it. That's, and I think lots of 279 00:14:07,900 --> 00:14:12,800 people listening, women, especially, will kind of 280 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,500 appreciate that, that it's like, because it's constant, it's 281 00:14:15,500 --> 00:14:17,300 exhausting, it's all the time, it's every day. 282 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,500 I remember last. Laughing about one of the you 283 00:14:19,500 --> 00:14:23,300 know there's lots of studies and reports on this now one about 284 00:14:23,300 --> 00:14:26,400 sexual harassment and bullying of women in the music industry 285 00:14:26,700 --> 00:14:29,400 and I laughing not because it's funny at all but where it was 286 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,200 like these statistics about how often women are being harassed 287 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,000 at music festivals. And I was just like, it's 288 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,100 laughable because our every single woman I know, would say 289 00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:42,900 every day. Yeah, every single day. 290 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,100 Something happens. It might be something big. 291 00:14:45,100 --> 00:14:46,900 It might be something small. Yeah. 292 00:14:46,900 --> 00:14:51,300 And you Telling me this number that is meaningless to me 293 00:14:51,700 --> 00:14:55,200 because and you want me to be like, no way 75% yeah man. 294 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:56,500 I've been harassed at work. Are you? 295 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:00,300 And you're just like it? That I really liked what you 296 00:15:00,300 --> 00:15:03,000 said about the compound interest because it builds up and chips 297 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,800 away. And I think the me it's been, 298 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:10,700 it's that creeping self-doubt where you said, what have I 299 00:15:10,700 --> 00:15:13,000 done? What do I need to change to stop 300 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,800 this happening and it's like I agree. 301 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,500 It's not people's fault. If If they have these roles in 302 00:15:19,500 --> 00:15:21,600 their mind about what women do and don't do and I get it a lot. 303 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,600 We were talking earlier about dr. 304 00:15:23,700 --> 00:15:27,500 Being my my name is dr. Bosher not miss or misses or 305 00:15:27,500 --> 00:15:30,500 whatever. And constantly people when they 306 00:15:30,500 --> 00:15:32,500 meet me for the first time in real life, if it's been like 307 00:15:32,500 --> 00:15:35,400 over email, they'll be like oh you're a woman because they 308 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:36,600 assume dr. Is a man. 309 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,400 Yeah. And if I ever go to say I like 310 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,200 book a hotel with my partner and I've put it under my name. 311 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,500 When we go there obviously dr. They do to him, not me. 312 00:15:47,300 --> 00:15:50,800 So it's in society and I get that, it's not people's fault, 313 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,300 but there is a responsibility to learn and up your game and work 314 00:15:54,300 --> 00:15:56,600 on yourself. If you have that narrow 315 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,800 perception and where you assume that a woman walks in the room 316 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,400 and she's the makeup artist, then that there's a problem. 317 00:16:04,700 --> 00:16:08,300 Yeah, that you need to work on it as in society needs to work 318 00:16:08,300 --> 00:16:11,200 on and I think it's a reflection of our society, right? 319 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,200 You said about these stats coming out and although I've 320 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,900 been part of putting out reports and data, I think Reason that I 321 00:16:17,908 --> 00:16:21,700 do that is because we're not believed or we're just being 322 00:16:21,700 --> 00:16:24,100 gas-lit all the time to be told. It's not really a problem. 323 00:16:24,100 --> 00:16:28,400 I feel like when you know I was growing up you're being told oh 324 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,700 you know women back in the day they didn't have rights and now 325 00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:34,100 they fought for your rights. You have the right to vote the 326 00:16:34,500 --> 00:16:39,400 right to work exactly but the reality is when I wanted to make 327 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,000 a change and I said no I'm going to speak out about these things. 328 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,300 How do I change the situation? Let me start speaking to other 329 00:16:45,300 --> 00:16:48,800 women and a woman. I spoke to had the same 330 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,000 experience as me and I was like, this is crazy and this is wrong, 331 00:16:52,100 --> 00:16:54,000 why have we all been going through this and silence? 332 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,700 Why have I been dealing with this as this, this this is 333 00:16:56,700 --> 00:16:58,500 normal. I should just accept this 334 00:16:58,500 --> 00:16:59,800 Behavior. I should just accept this 335 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,300 treatment, I shouldn't. And I think, like I said, it's a 336 00:17:02,300 --> 00:17:06,400 reflection of society nowadays that everyone does think these 337 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,400 are the gender roles, so that definitely reflects a problem. 338 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,800 Like you said, you know, with you getting that as well. 339 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,500 Just with your, with your title being doctor, I can just imagine 340 00:17:14,500 --> 00:17:17,000 that you can face the same thing and it's such a small example. 341 00:17:17,099 --> 00:17:18,800 Well, you know what I mean? But I'm just kind of 342 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:20,599 illustrating that it happened makes me mad. 343 00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:23,000 Yes, what makes me mad here. Honestly, as you were telling, 344 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:24,400 the story is about being kicked off stage. 345 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:29,000 I'm like, infuriated, and it's infuriating because it's so 346 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,500 invalidating. Yeah, and for you, you're like, 347 00:17:32,500 --> 00:17:35,500 I've been doing this for however many years. 348 00:17:35,500 --> 00:17:37,400 I'm, and it, like, I'm not just doing it. 349 00:17:37,408 --> 00:17:41,000 I'm doing it well and succeeding, and then someone 350 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,700 you're just assuming something about me because of my gender 351 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,600 and behaving in a way that you wouldn't behave. 352 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,400 If I I was a different gender and it's just like infuriating. 353 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,900 It's so if you're I get it all the time, I still get it. 354 00:17:52,900 --> 00:17:57,300 I've been on Zoom calls in the last year and jumped on the call 355 00:17:57,300 --> 00:17:59,900 because my artist is said about your, my representative go for 356 00:17:59,900 --> 00:18:04,800 this and there are you the manager or even at an event? 357 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:06,600 I think like an admin person. Yeah. 358 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:08,500 Oh, okay. You're the manager. 359 00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:09,700 How long have you been doing this? 360 00:18:09,900 --> 00:18:13,200 And they try and drop it in a conversational way, but it 361 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,400 happens so much. It's not just a general question 362 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:20,300 like I know when something's a general question and I know that 363 00:18:20,300 --> 00:18:24,100 there's something behind it that they're trying to ascertain that 364 00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:26,400 you're a company. Like you actually qualified. 365 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,300 Yeah. Are you the manager really? 366 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,700 This can't be like they just don't believe it. 367 00:18:30,700 --> 00:18:33,900 And so I find myself often saying, yeah really long time 368 00:18:33,900 --> 00:18:38,000 actually you know 18 years just sometimes just shutting them up 369 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,800 or some time to just you know, blanket out when ignore it but 370 00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:46,100 it's constant is on a if I'm if I go out at about to work events 371 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,300 with my art, Artists clients live shows. 372 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,000 It will definitely happen. Yeah, exactly. 373 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,000 So you mentioned about feeling like you lost, you lost your 374 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:56,800 confidence a little bit and chipped away. 375 00:18:57,100 --> 00:18:58,800 But you spoke about that in past tense. 376 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,600 So do you feel that you've got that back to some degree? 377 00:19:02,300 --> 00:19:07,000 Yeah, definitely. I feel like I made a decision in 378 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:11,300 myself to say I'm not happy with this and this is not how I want 379 00:19:11,300 --> 00:19:13,300 to be. I want I looked back at myself 380 00:19:13,300 --> 00:19:17,800 and thought where, where is that girl gone and why did I change 381 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:21,700 and I felt really sad because I had changed my the way I dressed 382 00:19:21,700 --> 00:19:24,100 I stopped wearing dresses and skirts. 383 00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:28,800 I stopped wearing high heels. I tried to change my outfit to 384 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,900 make myself be taken more seriously, but nothing worked. 385 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:37,300 So, I actually just decided, what can I do to make a change? 386 00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:39,800 And that's what really spurred on women in control. 387 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,700 It really, was from me starting to build a community of women 388 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,600 and actually starting to change the conversation. 389 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,700 So I feel like at the time when I was coming up there was 390 00:19:49,700 --> 00:19:54,100 definitely a culture of women not supporting other women and 391 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,700 us as women being made to feel well you're different. 392 00:19:57,700 --> 00:19:59,900 You're a special woman. You're a different type of 393 00:19:59,900 --> 00:20:01,900 woman. You are cool. 394 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,800 You don't moan, you're not difficult, you can be in this 395 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,100 position but you can't have other women around you. 396 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,200 So I thought that that was definitely a culture that I 397 00:20:10,208 --> 00:20:12,000 experienced in the music industry. 398 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,200 There wasn't a women supporting other women. 399 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:19,700 I definitely had no role models. That ad supported me or mentored 400 00:20:19,700 --> 00:20:22,500 me as I was coming through the industry and there weren't many 401 00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:25,200 women in my field that I could reach out to. 402 00:20:25,900 --> 00:20:30,500 So I wanted to just create that Sisterhood really sorry to tell 403 00:20:30,500 --> 00:20:33,600 other women stories and raise them up because there was other 404 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,400 women that I was had worked with or cross paths with in the 405 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,000 industry that I felt were incredible. 406 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,400 But I kept seeing male counterparts rising up through 407 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,700 the industry and I didn't see them getting that recognition. 408 00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:49,300 I Didn't see them getting promotions, I didn't get to see 409 00:20:49,300 --> 00:20:53,900 them their job titles changing. So in a way it was my small 410 00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:56,700 thing that I was doing just on social media just posting 411 00:20:56,700 --> 00:20:58,700 certain women and just saying, you know what, I want to raise 412 00:20:58,700 --> 00:21:01,300 this woman up, I think you're a woman in control. 413 00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:05,200 I think you're amazing because this is in this reason and then 414 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,900 I started running events and just doing my own panels and 415 00:21:07,900 --> 00:21:11,100 again changing the conversation having a real conversation 416 00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:15,200 rather than saying yeah my manager and, you know, I travel 417 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,400 the world and I'm doing the TV. We're on tour saying actually 418 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:24,600 I'm the only woman and we've got to tour buses with 60 70 guys. 419 00:21:24,700 --> 00:21:27,200 And I'm the only woman on the tour and it's actually quite 420 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,200 isolating because how do I act to be taken? 421 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,600 Seriously, I don't want to hang out with the guys. 422 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,400 Maybe, there's an age difference, maybe their 423 00:21:36,700 --> 00:21:40,200 interests are different to mine and what do I do? 424 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,200 Some isolated? A lot of the time I was 425 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:43,900 traveling alone. A lot of the times. 426 00:21:43,900 --> 00:21:46,100 I was traveling alone to the venue's beforehand, to up 427 00:21:46,100 --> 00:21:48,200 production. And again, going into this 428 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,200 really male-dominated environment with the old-school 429 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,000 Roadies who are just completely ignoring me and that's a whole 430 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,900 another challenge. So I just started to have real 431 00:21:56,900 --> 00:22:00,400 conversations and like I said, the Revelation was everyone else 432 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,300 had the same damn experiences so that really spurred me on 433 00:22:04,300 --> 00:22:08,000 because it was that Sisterhood when I felt that everyone's gone 434 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,400 through this and I just feel like I still have that fighter 435 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,700 spirit and I said, right, we need to change this. 436 00:22:12,700 --> 00:22:14,100 We need to do something about this. 437 00:22:14,100 --> 00:22:16,800 And again, I feel like that just gave me a new lease of life. 438 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,800 New fight to to challenge to say this is wrong. 439 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:24,000 And we need to talk about this. We need to have more awareness 440 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,300 about it because like you said, we know when a data comes out. 441 00:22:28,300 --> 00:22:32,000 Yep, we live this, okay, you need the data to for you, to 442 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,400 believe us, but we know because we experienced that. 443 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,400 So we just need to listen to women and we just need to 444 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:43,500 actually move past that doubting stage or oh, really are, does 445 00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:45,500 that still happen? Yes, it does. 446 00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:47,500 If every woman is saying It, it does. 447 00:22:47,500 --> 00:22:50,600 So you know we need to move past that and I think just to, you 448 00:22:50,608 --> 00:22:53,400 know, the data is important because exactly, it's 449 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:54,700 validating. Yeah. 450 00:22:54,700 --> 00:22:59,200 Confirming and I think for policymakers and even like 451 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,600 making policy within an organization it gives you 452 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,700 something you can point to and you know it's a shame that we 453 00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:09,300 need it but it plays a vital role in that to be especially 454 00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:13,100 when it's a microaggression or it's an unconscious bias or 455 00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:16,400 whatever where it's really hard to we know it's true because 456 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,100 we've It first hand below to try to explain it to someone who 457 00:23:20,100 --> 00:23:24,000 hasn't had that experience. So I do think the data is super 458 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,000 helpful, in that sense I wanted to ask you because you just 459 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:33,400 mentioned about the tour bus and not being taken seriously. 460 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,700 And honestly when I hear the story, I think for me I would be 461 00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:39,500 worried about my safety. What does that ever cross your 462 00:23:39,500 --> 00:23:44,700 mind and those situations not so much but for me in those 463 00:23:44,700 --> 00:23:49,000 situations because I had a Group of guys around me that were 464 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,700 always there and really protective over me in that 465 00:23:52,700 --> 00:23:56,300 sense. So not on in that situation, but 466 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,900 in external situations. Yes. 467 00:23:58,900 --> 00:24:03,500 When I A lot of times, you know, I've had a like many other women 468 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,200 experiences with unwanted advances from Men in the 469 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,600 industry. And it's been really challenging 470 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,800 to think about how to deal with that. 471 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,700 Do I ruin this relationship, which could then impact my 472 00:24:15,700 --> 00:24:18,500 clients business And therefore my business. 473 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,800 How do I deal with this? How much noise do I make about 474 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:23,700 this? Do I make a big song and dance 475 00:24:23,700 --> 00:24:26,500 publicly? Do I speak about it privately so 476 00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:30,100 they've been a few circumstances like that where I've always been 477 00:24:30,100 --> 00:24:34,300 really conscious of trying to build a safe space and have a 478 00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:37,400 safe space and have honest conversations with my team 479 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,800 around me too so that they know that these are the experiences 480 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,200 that I could have and for them to kind of be allies and protect 481 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,800 me in those situations as well. But I've still had those 482 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:49,600 experiences like so many other women. 483 00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:51,400 Yeah. And I think it comes back to 484 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:52,900 what you were just saying about building. 485 00:24:52,900 --> 00:24:55,200 That Sisterhood is, there's so much. 486 00:24:55,700 --> 00:24:58,300 I feel, it doesn't stop the problem and it doesn't solve the 487 00:24:58,300 --> 00:25:01,600 problem, but talking about it, with other people, because we 488 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,500 carry a lot of guilt around those situations and some people 489 00:25:05,500 --> 00:25:07,800 really struggle and some people had some really horrific 490 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:13,800 experiences traumatic and I find that it's the same thing of when 491 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,200 you tell someone a story, this happened to me. 492 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,900 And then they're like, I have a really similar situation. 493 00:25:18,900 --> 00:25:22,500 Yeah, this happened to my friend like, blah, blah, and it, it 494 00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:25,100 makes you feel less guilty because you're like, what if 495 00:25:25,100 --> 00:25:28,100 it's happening to all women? It can't possibly be my fault. 496 00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:32,800 Yeah, that it happened to me and I think that is a, it's not part 497 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,900 of solving the problem, but it's part of the healing. 498 00:25:35,500 --> 00:25:36,900 No, I think you're completely, right? 499 00:25:36,900 --> 00:25:40,300 I think even with my situations that happen, I didn't speak to 500 00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:45,000 anybody externally about it, dealt with it internally, and it 501 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,500 weighed on me, and it weighed on me. 502 00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:49,500 And it, Weighed on me and it's only in the recent years that I 503 00:25:50,100 --> 00:25:53,200 feel comfortable to say I've experienced things too and it 504 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,400 just feels like a relief and being able to tell people about 505 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,100 it and share it. It really does make a 506 00:25:58,108 --> 00:26:00,900 difference. I think, you know, we talked 507 00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:04,200 about data data is really important and I leaned on data a 508 00:26:04,208 --> 00:26:09,000 lot to help us be taken seriously and go back to facts 509 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,400 and say it's not an emotionally LED problem. 510 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:16,300 It's not me. Just one woman making a fuss and 511 00:26:16,500 --> 00:26:19,400 being a Rational, these are the hard cold facts. 512 00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:22,900 There is an issue here. Let's have a conversation about 513 00:26:22,900 --> 00:26:25,100 that. Then another thing like you said 514 00:26:25,100 --> 00:26:30,100 is having those safe spaces to have real open conversations and 515 00:26:30,300 --> 00:26:32,400 not feel that I live with that for. 516 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,500 How many years, why should we hold on to it? 517 00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:37,200 And like you said, feel guilty or feel that we shouldn't say, 518 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:38,700 because we're worried about our business. 519 00:26:38,700 --> 00:26:42,200 And I think by speaking out it just, you know, would hopefully 520 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,400 help the Next Generation coming through to not accept that and 521 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,800 to accept, Kept expect more and I think we need to really get to 522 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,200 a place where in the industry as soon as anyone hears about these 523 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,900 stories that we're so appalled and were so shocked that we want 524 00:26:58,900 --> 00:27:03,200 to shun that person or just completely just back away from 525 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:08,500 people that do that and I liken it to to drink driving, you 526 00:27:08,508 --> 00:27:12,600 know, drink-driving didn't stop, because it became illegal, it 527 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,500 became it stopped because it was became socially unacceptable. 528 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,800 So we need to make it Socially unacceptable that when somebody 529 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,400 shares a story or has this experience or somebody is found 530 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,800 guilty of or admits to something always caught doing something 531 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,600 that we as an industry. Make it socially unacceptable 532 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:35,100 for them to be continued on until they make amends or until 533 00:27:35,100 --> 00:27:36,900 you know, they're, they're punished for whatever they've 534 00:27:36,900 --> 00:27:41,400 done and I think it's really important like to kind of say to 535 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,200 believe, yeah, the woman in the first place and then that also 536 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,900 creates a safe space if you feel like I'm going to He believed 537 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,100 then I'm more likely to tell what happened and that there's 538 00:27:51,100 --> 00:27:56,100 repercussions. So that the men are more 539 00:27:56,100 --> 00:27:59,200 conscious about because sometimes it's like pure 540 00:27:59,500 --> 00:28:02,400 ignorance and like said that this Society, they've been 541 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,500 brought up in the patriarchal society, that's teaches you that 542 00:28:05,500 --> 00:28:07,900 it's okay to advance on a woman regardless of whether she's 543 00:28:07,900 --> 00:28:10,500 interested in you or not, they don't even consider that just so 544 00:28:10,500 --> 00:28:13,100 confident that they do because there's no consequences for 545 00:28:13,100 --> 00:28:16,700 their behavior, so it's fine for them to carry on doing that. 546 00:28:16,900 --> 00:28:20,900 Yeah, so I'm going to ask you the question. 547 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,100 So we've talked about some of the challenges women in music 548 00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:27,800 industry. And the question is, how do you 549 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:32,700 think we can support and Empower women in the music industry? 550 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,400 And what do you think that the music industry needs to do to 551 00:28:36,700 --> 00:28:40,000 kind of meet us halfway with that and make the music industry 552 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,800 more inclusive? Yeah, I would like to see more 553 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,800 women in leadership positions. In the music industry I 554 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,000 genuinely Leave that by having more women at the top. 555 00:28:49,100 --> 00:28:52,600 We're going to start to have better conversations more real 556 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,600 conversations and start to make positive changes that are needed 557 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,400 and necessary, such as closing, the gender pay Gap. 558 00:28:59,700 --> 00:29:03,100 And I think that all of us in the industry, we have some sort 559 00:29:03,100 --> 00:29:06,000 of responsibility, we all have some sort of power 560 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,300 decision-making in our hands and we can all do our small bit 561 00:29:09,300 --> 00:29:13,000 whether you're a manager looking after artists and you have other 562 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,700 artists on your roster, you can go and negotiate up for you. 563 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,100 Other artists or if you're a promoter or if you're a manager 564 00:29:20,100 --> 00:29:24,400 in an or marketing person, who at whatever your role is, we all 565 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,600 have some decision-making power and we can all use and do our 566 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,400 little bit to make positive change in the industry. 567 00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:35,700 Perfect. Thank you so much and I also 568 00:29:35,700 --> 00:29:38,200 want to come back to your woman and control thing because I 569 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:42,700 think something that we can do is to come together as women and 570 00:29:42,700 --> 00:29:44,000 support each other in that way to. 571 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,400 So how if someone is listening and they want to join? 572 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:47,800 What do they do? How do they find you? 573 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,100 Yeah. So you can just go to our 574 00:29:50,100 --> 00:29:53,400 website women in control.com and we have a private membership 575 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,700 Community as well, which is free where we share jobs 576 00:29:57,700 --> 00:30:01,200 opportunities and it's just a safe space to connect with other 577 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,400 like-minded. Women in the industry. 578 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,000 And we also have a Weekly Newsletter which you can sign up 579 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,200 to which we share. Lots of fun, interesting facts, 580 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,100 and points of view. Lots of tips on how to survive 581 00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:17,500 in the music industry. Maybe tips on saying no tips on 582 00:30:17,508 --> 00:30:21,300 dealing with gas lighting at work tips on speaking out. 583 00:30:21,300 --> 00:30:24,700 So lots of different interesting topics that we cover every week 584 00:30:24,700 --> 00:30:27,900 and also you can get us on social media as well at women in 585 00:30:27,900 --> 00:30:30,600 control everywhere. Amazing, thank you. 586 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,400 So before I ask you the very last Question, is there anything 587 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,000 that you feel you want to add or say that I haven't asked you 588 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,100 anything else? Well, no, I just, I guess I'd 589 00:30:41,100 --> 00:30:42,700 like to just talk about a little bit more. 590 00:30:42,700 --> 00:30:44,300 Expand on. What I said about the gender pay 591 00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:46,100 Gap. I think, you know that there is 592 00:30:46,100 --> 00:30:48,500 a real gender pay Gap in industry. 593 00:30:48,500 --> 00:30:52,100 And again, looking at data, I think new data just released 594 00:30:52,100 --> 00:30:55,900 shows that we actually have over 60 percent of women, entering 595 00:30:55,900 --> 00:30:59,900 the industry at entry level but other data shows us that we lose 596 00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:01,900 women in the industry over the age of 30. 597 00:31:02,100 --> 00:31:05,600 T5, and I think that the gender pay Gap really feeds into that. 598 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,800 Because when you speak to women, or when you look at other data, 599 00:31:09,100 --> 00:31:12,400 such as pers has data that they've released themselves. 600 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,900 When they have 160,000 members of that membership, only, 18 601 00:31:16,900 --> 00:31:20,400 percent are female songwriters and that number was only 602 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:25,000 thirteen percent around 34 years ago and the top 10 male, 603 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:29,500 songwriters earned, 70, 70 percent more than the top ten 604 00:31:29,500 --> 00:31:33,200 female songwriters. So when we Start to think about 605 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,000 why do you think women are leaving the industry over the 606 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,500 age of 35? I think that income opportunity 607 00:31:39,500 --> 00:31:43,700 plays a huge part in it as as you know Parenthood flexible 608 00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:46,700 working a lot of caring responsibilities fall to women 609 00:31:46,700 --> 00:31:49,200 as well. So I think there's small things 610 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,800 that we can do whether again, if you are in a hiring position, I 611 00:31:52,808 --> 00:31:55,800 think salary. Transparency would really help 612 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,600 to make a change. So I would just like to call out 613 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,700 to anybody to actually publish The brackets or a salary when 614 00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:07,000 you're putting job applications out so that we can, I think that 615 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,300 that's the one small step that we can take in the industry that 616 00:32:09,300 --> 00:32:12,400 will really help to to small break back. 617 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:17,500 Make that Gap smaller smaller in that Gap, is that I feel like 618 00:32:17,500 --> 00:32:19,200 that's a really good kind of suggestion. 619 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,200 And I really hope that this is something that we can see. 620 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,000 Because with this work there's kind of two sort of parts to it, 621 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,800 isn't it? There's like the internal work 622 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,300 working on your unconscious bias and reflecting on your own 623 00:32:30,300 --> 00:32:33,400 behavior and things like that. And then it's like really 624 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,400 obvious key steps that we can point to that. 625 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,600 Can be like, yeah, transparency about how much you're paying 626 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,300 each other. I also I mentioned this in one 627 00:32:41,300 --> 00:32:45,000 of the other episodes about a way that we can overcome that as 628 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,100 women if the company doesn't do it for you, will talk to each 629 00:32:48,100 --> 00:32:49,700 other. Yeah, I tell my colleagues how 630 00:32:49,700 --> 00:32:53,100 much I money I earn and when I one of them as I found out how 631 00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:56,300 much she earned we have the same job and I was earning more and I 632 00:32:56,300 --> 00:32:58,900 told her. Yeah and not I mean I'm told it 633 00:32:58,900 --> 00:33:02,900 and I said to her go and get a pay rise like Because I'd ago, 634 00:33:02,900 --> 00:33:05,300 she hated my pay and she didn't, but we're on the same job as I'm 635 00:33:05,300 --> 00:33:07,600 not having that. So it's about supporting each 636 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,600 other sharing information because the secrecy of it. 637 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:11,800 Yep. I didn't actually know, someone 638 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:13,000 was like, you're not supposed to tell people. 639 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,500 I'm like, why, why why? Because you're hiding something. 640 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,800 Yeah. Is that okay? 641 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:23,500 So transparency, whether that's from a top-down level or forced 642 00:33:23,500 --> 00:33:25,200 from the bottom up? I don't care. 643 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:30,100 The point is that, let's not hide behind that secrecy and 644 00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:33,900 that's between us. As women, but also between the 645 00:33:33,900 --> 00:33:36,000 men as well. The Allies, like, talk to us 646 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,300 about that, like, it doesn't, it's not fair. 647 00:33:38,300 --> 00:33:41,900 If you're doing the same job, you're the same level should be 648 00:33:41,900 --> 00:33:45,800 paid the same amount. So, it's there are really 649 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,400 obvious steps that can be taken tomorrow. 650 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,800 You could do that tomorrow. Exactly, it's a simple step and 651 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:52,600 it's good to give people Simple Solutions. 652 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,400 Because again, when you've spoken about all the problems it 653 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,500 just feels so vast and it feels like how can we do anything to 654 00:33:58,700 --> 00:34:02,200 to make a change? But research shows that that 655 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,400 women will ask for less money. They tend to ask for less money 656 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:11,800 and then on top of that, hiring teams will tend to offer women. 657 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:16,000 The lower end of the bracket because again, women are coming 658 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,900 into a workplace, they have to prove themselves in order to get 659 00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:25,500 that promotion or that pay rise. Whereas men are typically given 660 00:34:25,500 --> 00:34:30,000 a certain bracket of a salary because they wouldn't expect 661 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,800 anything less. They wouldn't accept anything 662 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,699 less. And they're also given that 663 00:34:33,900 --> 00:34:36,600 deemed on work that they believe that they're going to do. 664 00:34:36,900 --> 00:34:39,500 So I mean research is showing this this is a fact. 665 00:34:39,500 --> 00:34:42,100 So I think just having that salary transparency is a really 666 00:34:42,100 --> 00:34:46,100 small step that we can start to change the conversations in the 667 00:34:46,100 --> 00:34:49,900 industry and again like you I've spoken to loads of women leaders 668 00:34:49,900 --> 00:34:52,600 in the industry and said, hey, do you know that this person is 669 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,800 getting paid that? And we've started to build a 670 00:34:54,808 --> 00:34:57,600 group of us, we all get together and we share information. 671 00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,900 And, and that's just so powerful. 672 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,900 Yes, Ali. I know I completely agree. 673 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,000 And there's so much research on this about. 674 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,900 There's so many angles of why this would happen like the man 675 00:35:08,900 --> 00:35:11,900 is more likely to negotiate his pay and has a higher 676 00:35:11,900 --> 00:35:15,000 expectation. Plus there's the perceived from 677 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,900 the employer, there's the perceived idea that the man is 678 00:35:17,900 --> 00:35:22,100 more qualified and more expert or whatever and then the woman 679 00:35:22,100 --> 00:35:25,800 like I thank you I'm so grateful for a job like I just take it so 680 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,700 there's lots of layers to it. Yeah it is a complicated 681 00:35:29,700 --> 00:35:34,400 multifaceted issue but the same time that A Simple Solutions, 682 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,900 exactly. So final question. 683 00:35:36,900 --> 00:35:39,100 Yeah. As my might keep slipping lower 684 00:35:39,100 --> 00:35:43,800 and lower so annoying. And final question, who is your 685 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,300 all-time favorite ever music maker who is female? 686 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,100 And that could be any singer, songwriter, performer, whatever. 687 00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:52,000 You can take the question as broadly as you like. 688 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:57,400 Oh, it's so hard so many, but I think I'll go for Mary J. 689 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,500 Blige nice, okay. Yeah, because I am an R&B. 690 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,500 Girl at heart, that's why I grew up listening to and just stayed 691 00:36:06,500 --> 00:36:11,100 with me all my life. And I recently found out that 692 00:36:11,100 --> 00:36:15,800 she was snubbed from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2021. 693 00:36:16,100 --> 00:36:19,400 So I heard about that last week because I heard that I think 694 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,000 last week Aretha, Franklin was the first woman to be inducted. 695 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,200 So it's kind of led me down this Rabbit Hole of looking at how 696 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,500 many women are on there and I think it's something only like 697 00:36:28,500 --> 00:36:31,900 eleven percent of women in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. 698 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,100 So I think Mary J Blige deserves her. 699 00:36:34,100 --> 00:36:36,800 Geez, so I'm going to shout about her. 700 00:36:36,900 --> 00:36:40,400 Yeah, that's fair enough. Okay, and then as kind of like a 701 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,700 secondary one, maybe someone our current like someone you're 702 00:36:44,700 --> 00:36:47,500 fangirling over currently. Yeah, I'm going to choose little 703 00:36:47,500 --> 00:36:52,900 Sims because I've been following her journey for around eight 704 00:36:52,900 --> 00:36:55,600 years. Plus I saw her when she first 705 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,000 came out and she didn't quite fit in. 706 00:36:58,500 --> 00:37:00,200 She was kind of a little bit left. 707 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,400 She didn't quite fit into What was going on within the black 708 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,500 music scene at the time? And I just love that she carved 709 00:37:06,500 --> 00:37:09,500 her own lane. I remember going to kanak 710 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:14,400 Toronto for Canadian Music Week and speaking to some promoters 711 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,100 out there and we were talking about putting a tour on and they 712 00:37:17,100 --> 00:37:21,000 told me that they just on a tour with little Sims across North 713 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,600 America. And they were telling me how 714 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,100 successful it was and then I was coming back to the UK and I was 715 00:37:26,100 --> 00:37:29,800 seeing her to still on her grind, and I just really respect 716 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:31,800 that. She just did it independently. 717 00:37:32,100 --> 00:37:35,700 Carved her own lane out and was just really true to herself and 718 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,800 I just love to see her winning and, you know, getting her 719 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:43,100 flowers now she deserves it. Yeah, amazing do strong really 720 00:37:43,100 --> 00:37:46,000 strong answers, which I'm sure people will relate to. 721 00:37:46,500 --> 00:37:48,800 Thank you so much. Nadia, it's been having having 722 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,200 you on his little mazing. You're such an inspiration and I 723 00:37:51,208 --> 00:37:54,000 feel like all of the different things that you're doing is so 724 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,500 important and you're really making a difference. 725 00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:59,100 And I just feel like it's really important to acknowledge that 726 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,900 and genuinely feel that of so happy to have met. 727 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,100 Met you. I'm and to just, you know, be 728 00:38:05,100 --> 00:38:07,600 having this conversation because this is it, isn't it like having 729 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,400 these conversations and just opening it up? 730 00:38:10,900 --> 00:38:12,800 And hopefully we'll have many more. 731 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,600 So, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. 732 00:38:15,700 --> 00:38:20,700 Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening. 733 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,300 And if you enjoyed this episode, please like, share and 734 00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:25,100 subscribe.