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So people lose too much. 
It's really hard to bring them 

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back from. 
But when you can be a positive 

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influence to the person, you get
this person to see you as a 

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trusted source. 
They trust you. 

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They feel like you understand 
them, that the problem with 

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addiction is that we lie to 
ourselves. 

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Boundaries are for you, they're 
not for them. 

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What if everything you've been 
told about helping someone with 

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addiction is completely 
backwards? 

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That waiting for rock bottom 
isn't just wrong, it's 

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dangerous. 
That tough Love Actually makes 

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things worse. 
And that the ideal you're 

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powerless is the biggest lie of 
all. 

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Today's guest, master addiction 
counselor Amber Hollingsworth, 

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has built a movement challenging
these very ideas. 

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She's teaching families how to 
stop digging themselves into a 

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deeper hole and start using 
strategy to outsmart addiction. 

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So whether you're in recovery 
yourself or loving someone who 

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is, get ready to take your power
back. 

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Thank you. 
Appreciate. 

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Amber. 
Thank you for being on the 

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podcast today. 
Thanks. 

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I know I need music or 
something. 

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We put the music on. 
We kind of do this cool intro 

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and all that stuff afterwards 
when they edit everything. 

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Yeah, it's cool that way. 
I want to kind of get into these

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Mythbusters. 
I know on your YouTube channel, 

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and I encourage everybody to. 
What's your YouTube? 

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Channel it's called. 
Put the shovel down. 

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No need to keep digging, no need
to lose everything. 

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You can be dumb as soon as 
you're done. 

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Oh that's good, someone said to 
me today. 

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They sent me a message said I 
always thought that meant put 

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the shovel down. 
I said quit hitting your loved 

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one over the head with the 
shovel. 

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Oh, that's wild. 
Yeah, that that's crazy. 

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I want to get into a little bit,
if you don't mind. 

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They have to hit rock bottom. 
I kind of want to stay there 

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because that seems to be 
everybody I talked to has that 

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in the back of their head 
conversation. 

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And I know you say that it's not
just wrong, but it's dangerous. 

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What's waiting for rock bottom? 
One of the worst pieces. 

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Advice you can give a family. 
The I think it goes back to just

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the very nature of addiction. 
The definition is continues the 

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behavior despite the 
consequence. 

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That's the mere definition. 
So people live on the streets, 

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they lose their children, they 
lose their freedom, they lose 

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their dignity, they lose their 
jobs, they lose their spouses, 

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and they still keep doing it. 
So this let me just wait until 

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they suffer enough. 
It's not quite the answer, but 

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this whole bottom thing, in my 
experience, if people lose too 

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much, it's really hard to bring 
them back from. 

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For example, if they've already 
lived on the street for a while,

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they get used to it and then 
they're fine. 

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And then what do you have? 
You don't have any leverage 

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anymore. 
Because if they haven't done it 

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for that, the idea of that might
be scary, but once they've 

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crossed that line, they get 
comfortable with it. 

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Yeah, I know. 
One of the things that like, 

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like when you're dealing and 
working with families, what do 

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you do? 
So let's say I have a close 

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friend of mine, she, her 
daughter is a meth addict, 

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bounces in and out of different 
guys, houses and all that do 

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then is that if they're an 
adult, you know, OK, they're 

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2220325I should just let them. 
They'll come to me whenever I 

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need to set the standard. 
How do you start talking to the 

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moms and the dads out there? 
And when I say if they're 

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homeless, like that can be 
worse, but that's not me saying 

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that you should let them live in
your house. 

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Of course. 
Like I'm not saying that. 

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I'm just saying it's a misnomer 
to think if I tell my husband 

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I'm going to leave, he's going 
to stop drinking. 

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If I tell my kid, it just 
doesn't work. 

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As far as that goes. 
In my mind, it's influencing 

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someone to change. 
There's two pieces to it. 

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One of those pieces is 
consequences that they do have 

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to get uncomfortable. 
They don't have to hit bottom. 

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Hopefully they don't lose 
everything. 

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It's got to 'cause them to be in
distress to some degree. 

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So allowing consequences is the 
first thing. 

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And where families get that 
piece confused is they confuse 

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punishment with consequences. 
Does the opposite. 

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And the way I define that is 
anything that you dole out is 

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punishment, or at least that's 
the way it's going to be 

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perceived by the other person. 
When the universe dolls it out, 

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it's a consequence. 
Somebody gets intoxicated and 

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they do really embarrassing 
things. 

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The feeling embarrassed about it
is the consequence. 

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That's the thing that's going to
get their attention. 

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If somebody gets really 
intoxicated and they do 

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something really embarrassing 
and you wake them up the next 

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day and you start yelling at 
them and telling them everything

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they did embarrassing, you're 
yelling at them. 

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Being mad at them is a 
punishment, right? 

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Then they're they get 
preoccupied with you being the 

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problem and to let the world let
the uncomfortableness come in, 

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which is the opposite of what 
most families want to do. 

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Most families want to fix all 
the big bad things out in the 

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world that are the messes the 
person's causing, pay for the 

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lawyers and all the things. 
And then they're mad at the 

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person in the context of the 
relationship, which is the 

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opposite. 
And I try to get people to do 

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the opposite formula, let those 
natural consequences fall. 

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And then the other piece of the 
formula other than the 

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consequences is gaining 
influence with the person. 

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So when you can be a positive 
influence to the person, you get

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this person to see you as a 
trusted source, that they trust 

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you, they feel like you 
understand them. 

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They'll go to you when they 
experience these consequences. 

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Now you have influence. 
See the pushing. 

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When you play your cards, you 
can do the influencing, which is

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pulling. 
So it's like a push pull and now

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you can lead them there much 
faster. 

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Even as like a parent, let's say
a mom or a dad or whatever, 

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you're almost like looking at 
them. 

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Obviously you love your kid, but
you're looking at him and I need

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to pay the rent. 
I need to help him with they 

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don't have any transportation. 
You're saying let those 

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consequences happen. 
If you have to take the bus, 

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then so be it. 
You if you have to be, if you're

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going to be now when it comes to
being homeless and stuff like 

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that, because there's always 
that. 

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I'll talk to families all the 
time. 

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They're like, I haven't seen so 
and so in two months or a month 

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or whatever. 
How do you handle that? 

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Like how do you go into the 
homeless part because you 

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mentioned that earlier. 
I have this whole like thing, I 

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call it a motivation matrix. 
It's easy to show visually, but 

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when the consequences are really
high but the influence is really

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low, one of the things you get 
is they person just gives into 

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it. 
They just give up. 

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They can just almost take it on 
as an identity and see it as 

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their destiny. 
That's just who they are. 

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I'm just a drug addict, I'm just
an alcoholic and they just give 

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into it. 
It really is this meeting spot 

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influence that that gives you 
any kind of power to pull a 

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person in the right direction. 
And as far as paying rents and 

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stuff like that, I'm not nearly 
as hardcore on that as most 

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addiction counselors are. 
I personally feel like the most 

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enabling thing you can do is 
play the bad guy role. 

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Let me assume that if if I go 
and give my kid or cousin or 

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whoever $20, yeah, they might go
out there and do whatever with 

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that. 
And they may use and whatever 

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they're going to do, you cannot 
get around that. 

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And they may use they, they may 
buy out a little bit and use one

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time, they'll build a resentment
against you. 

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And they'll access that memory 
for the next 20 years. 

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And they will use that as the 
emotional justification. 

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They keep doing what they're 
doing. 

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They will use that over and over
again. 

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No, that makes sense. 
And this is the question I 

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really wanted to ask you. 
And what I was really excited to

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have you on is we have this idea
of you're either not using or 

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you're using, period. 
There's no in between. 

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There's no levels to this, you 
know, And I know there's high 

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functioning addicts, especially 
with alcohol, like you can talk 

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to people all the time. 
Oh yeah, those are the ones. 

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I'm trying to get them put that 
shovel down before they lose 

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everything. 
So how does that work as far as 

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if you're high functioning, if 
you're a successful person that 

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seems like they have it all 
together, but they're drinking 

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at night when they get home. 
I talked to somebody the other 

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day. 
She was like, I drink 2 bottles 

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of wine a night, 7 nights, seven
days a week. 

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So that's still high 
functioning. 

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But how do you make a 
realization like, hey, this 

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isn't working out, you're 
screwing things up? 

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I mean, most people deep down 
inside, they dislike something 

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about it, usually a lot of 
things about it. 

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They feel uncomfortable inside 
about it. 

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They feel shameful, they feel 
guilty. 

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They make promise to themselves,
they break it. 

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They know they're not being 
their best self, wife, mother, 

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employee, whatever. 
And they naturally feel terrible

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about that. 
That feeling is the consequence.

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It's really going to get someone
to change that feeling of I 

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don't, I'm not proud of myself. 
And so when it seems like 

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there's not enough consequences 
outwardly, there's so many more 

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that people are very reluctant 
to talk about and admit. 

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And the last person they're 
going to admit it to is their 

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family member because they don't
want the family member to jump 

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on top of it. 
And they don't want to be if 

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they're not ready to give it up,
they don't want to be like 

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pressed into the corner faster 
than they want. 

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So I just remind families it's 
in there. 

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Most of the people I see are 
successful business people, 

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doctors, lawyers, they're smart 
people, but and if you get 

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enough trust with them, they'll 
let you see that part. 

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And inside there's a lot of 
things maybe they like something

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about what they're doing, but 
there's a lot they don't like. 

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And when you can build your 
influence card and your 

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credibility, I call those the 
seeds of change. 

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You can pull those forward. 
You can nurture them and water 

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them. 
And then you're pulling their 

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motivation from them for them 
that wants to change and you're 

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nurturing it and you're playing 
on that card. 

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Like for somebody talked to a 
guy recently who is a very 

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successful person and he's 
clearly an alcoholic, though. 

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And he's like, I'm not going to 
stop. 

200
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I don't want to stop. 
And he finally at the end of our

201
00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:45,440
session, said we'll probably 
need to cut back. 

202
00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:46,800
And he set these little rules 
for himself. 

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00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,280
And I was like, why does your 
wife thinks from whatever? 

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00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:50,560
And he said, I'm nasty when I'm 
drinking. 

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00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:53,960
So I was with some people. 
Get that. 

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00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:55,680
Yeah, I hear you. 
And I say, and you know what? 

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00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,880
I have only known you not very 
long now, and I know that being 

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00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,720
a nice, fun, enjoyable person is
really important to you. 

209
00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,040
Look how you are at work. 
Look at how these people love 

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you and these. 
I could see it in his face. 

211
00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,640
See him be like, yeah, you're 
right. 

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00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:10,680
I was like, that's really 
against your value system. 

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That's not who you are at all. 
And that's what I mean when you,

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when you find that seed and 
you're like, that's it. 

215
00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,720
And then you water it. 
You don't say, yeah, you're 

216
00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,280
being a big ugly jerk. 
No, that doesn't worry. 

217
00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:24,520
You say, yeah, that's not who 
you are at all. 

218
00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:26,600
Yes. 
And then you're pulling that 

219
00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:28,760
forward and you can literally 
watch their face. 

220
00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:30,800
Yeah, it's so interesting 
because we have like business 

221
00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,080
meetings sometimes and we'll 
have highly successful different

222
00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,120
types of people and they'll come
together and we'll meet at a 

223
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restaurant or whatever, a patio,
something nice. 

224
00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,800
And it's so interesting because 
it's not the drinking obviously 

225
00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:42,360
is the problem, but it's what's 
happening. 

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They drink too much now, even 
though they're married, they're 

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00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:47,600
flirting with the waitress now. 
I get her number because of the 

228
00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:49,080
alcohol. 
They wouldn't have done that if 

229
00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,440
it wasn't for that. 
Or they order a bunch of food 

230
00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,240
and they're £100 overweight. 
It's like your ambition, like 

231
00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,280
everything starts to go away and
then you're causing mass amounts

232
00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,960
of trauma not just to yourself 
but to those around you. 

233
00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,760
That's right. 
And deep down that's the thing 

234
00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,640
that really bothers people and 
that feeling of just be mad at 

235
00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:13,480
yourself or that not liking who 
you are or how it's making your 

236
00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:14,960
day. 
That's really the thing I think 

237
00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,080
that ultimately it makes people 
change way more than like the 

238
00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:23,360
the DUI or things because in our
minds it's just so easy to 

239
00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:25,800
rationalize or justify away some
of those things. 

240
00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:30,240
You know, they're just out to 
get people or so and so just 

241
00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,000
turn me in because they have 
beef with me with this constant 

242
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,040
naggy feeling inside of. 
That and that's what you go 

243
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:39,920
after like. 
Oh yeah, I'll look for it. 

244
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,800
And you have to do a lot of work
to build enough trust with 

245
00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,920
someone to get to see those 
pieces right. 

246
00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,600
Yeah, it's interesting because 
I've asked friends of mine or 

247
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:51,560
people that I've talked to, it's
like, what are the things that 

248
00:11:51,560 --> 00:11:54,920
you don't like about yourself 
when you're in your addiction? 

249
00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,760
But it's so interesting, the 
conversations that they begin to

250
00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:00,680
have. 
It's like you said, there's 

251
00:12:00,680 --> 00:12:04,200
guilt and shame. 
That happens almost 100% of the 

252
00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,560
time. 
People have reasons why they 

253
00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:08,760
want to stop. 
Even I call them like the cowboy

254
00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,400
taps are like braggy about it. 
Especially if you have someone 

255
00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:13,960
like that. 
If you just ask the question, if

256
00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,440
you say is there anything you 
don't like about it, they will 

257
00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:18,760
immediately. 
I don't know whether they'll 

258
00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:20,080
tell it to you. 
They'll probably tell it to you.

259
00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:21,840
But even if they don't tell it 
to you, they'll think of the 

260
00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,600
answer. 
Still done your job as far as 

261
00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,560
moving them and they're thinking
along because your brain can't 

262
00:12:27,560 --> 00:12:30,560
help but answer the question. 
Yeah, I want to unpack that 

263
00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:32,320
because it's interesting and I 
know you have a thing called the

264
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,440
invisible intervention. 
So let's get into that. 

265
00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,280
This is totally different than 
traditional confrontational type

266
00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,200
of intervention. 
Can you talk to the spouse or a 

267
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,480
parent who's terrified about 
causing a huge fight and how the

268
00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,760
small steps, invisible 
intervention, what they can do 

269
00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:49,840
today? 
All these things I'm talking 

270
00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,240
about right now with the 
balancing of letting them get 

271
00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:54,920
uncomfortable and the getting 
out of the bag of roll and 

272
00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,120
filling influence in the 
invisible intervention. 

273
00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:58,640
I'll just teach you that step by
step. 

274
00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,600
Like literally, I teach you the 
skills that I've been using for 

275
00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,480
20 years to get people to get 
honest with themselves and to 

276
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,400
find someone's motivators. 
And what do you do when you find

277
00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:09,360
it? 
And exactly what do you say? 

278
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,880
A lot of it's like reflective 
listening skills and empathy 

279
00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:13,800
statements. 
And how do I get someone's 

280
00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,160
defensiveness down? 
It's the actual counseling 

281
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,840
skills that I use, which you 
don't have to have any how big 

282
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:21,160
degree. 
They're very basic. 

283
00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,600
Anyone can do them. 
And so I teach people and say, 

284
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:26,640
listen, this what I'd do if they
were sitting in front of me. 

285
00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,160
Here's what I would say. 
Here's how to say it. 

286
00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,800
And then they start to build 
their influence with their loved

287
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,280
1. 
And it works so good, Jason, 

288
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:35,960
because here's how I know it 
works. 

289
00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,360
When the families haven't been 
doing this and someone calls me 

290
00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:45,880
because they have an addiction, 
their attitude will be I'm 

291
00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:50,160
calling because my wife is 
making me and I agreed. 

292
00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,240
Or she says we're going to let 
me see my kids or whatever and 

293
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:53,320
that's fine. 
I can deal with that because 

294
00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:54,440
I've been dealing with that for 
20 years. 

295
00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,680
So I can win that version over. 
But once people have been using 

296
00:13:57,680 --> 00:14:01,520
the intervention, I know 
immediately because when their 

297
00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,000
person calls and talks to me, 
they say I just got to quit. 

298
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,200
I keep on this pattern. 
I am like ruining myself. 

299
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,160
My poor wife, she has been an 
Angel. 

300
00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,960
I can't believe I'm doing this. 
Like their readiness is on a 

301
00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,760
whole another level. 
So when they come in, I hit the 

302
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,080
ground running. 
They're already coming in asking

303
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,680
for advice on how to change. 
So we just get the business, we 

304
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,520
figure it out. 
The other people, they come in 

305
00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,280
and we spend 6 months of them 
complaining to me about their 

306
00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,080
loved one. 
And the bad thing is the loved 

307
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,320
ones usually I'm paying and I'm 
like, Oh my gosh, I feel bad. 

308
00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,680
This person's paying. 
They come complain to me about 

309
00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:38,440
them. 
So it's I feel guilty about it. 

310
00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,880
But yeah. 
Do you think? 

311
00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,560
Because I know you have a video 
that's titled It's not 

312
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,600
Codispendency, It's Betrayal 
trauma. 

313
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,040
And, and to me, and I encourage 
everybody to go to your YouTube 

314
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,160
channel and watch that video, 
but it's a, that's a profound 

315
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:54,640
shift. 
Can you break down the 

316
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,120
difference and explain why 
letting go of the codependent 

317
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,120
label it's critical, especially 
for like a spouse or a family 

318
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:02,200
member? 
Exactly right. 

319
00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:04,440
I feel like evidence is just one
of those labels. 

320
00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,760
Like narcissism lately just gets
thrown out and it's just, and 

321
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:09,680
it's weird because I feel like 
everyone kind of has a different

322
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:11,360
idea in their mind about some 
people. 

323
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:13,680
They use that word to mean 
people pleasing. 

324
00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,240
I think codependent, there is a 
level of codependency and that 

325
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,720
when you're so scared and you're
walking on egg shells and 

326
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,960
you're, you're thinking, I can't
say or do this thing or that 

327
00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,200
might set them off, that's a 
little bit of codependency. 

328
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:31,080
But when you're having these 
huge like emotional reactions 

329
00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,320
that you feel like you can't 
even control, that's probably a 

330
00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,320
trauma symptom. 
And especially if you're a 

331
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:42,800
spouse or even if you're a 
parent, you, you live in fear 

332
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:49,600
and anxiety for so long and the 
lies and distrust and loss of 

333
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,000
dream about what you thought was
going to happen that you end up 

334
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,600
with PTSD. 
And so, you know, like your 

335
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,680
loved ones 5 minutes late coming
home because it was traffic, but

336
00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:00,080
you don't know that. 
And they walk in the door and 

337
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,840
you just lose your cool on them 
and you're just melting down, 

338
00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,600
just like a soldier who hears a 
loud noise, something reminded 

339
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,560
you of it. 
And then you get in that fight 

340
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,840
or flight response, it's very 
difficult. 

341
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:17,400
Yeah, no, that makes 100%. 
So do you work like as far as 

342
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,240
because there's always the when 
the emotions are running high, 

343
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,400
when there's almost that PTSD 
type feeling, there's a way that

344
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,120
you want to protect yourself. 
And so the conversation starts 

345
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,400
off all wrong, like you said. 
Next thing you know, the attic 

346
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,360
walks in the door from work. 
I hadn't drank yet. 

347
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,080
And then Jim or Susan or 
whoever's just go freaking out, 

348
00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,080
yelling, and you did this to me 
and it makes it all about them 

349
00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:43,920
and what how I'm feeling and 
what you're doing. 

350
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,720
And then it's 'cause I know 
there's a lot of manipulation. 

351
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:48,160
I know there's a lot of 
gaslighting. 

352
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,440
And did you talk about that 
being like an addict's best 

353
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,520
friend? 
But for the person on the 

354
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,800
receiving end, it can make you 
feel like you're going crazy. 

355
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,600
How do you keep your saying? 
You do go crazy. 

356
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,599
It's making you crazy. 
So just there's that part of the

357
00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:07,200
reason why you do get so crazy 
is because of the gaslighting 

358
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,040
and because you're constantly 
being told that you're not 

359
00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,720
seeing what you're seeing. 
And then you have this wrestling

360
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,079
thing with yourself where you're
like, I know I'm right. 

361
00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:19,920
And then maybe I'm not, Maybe 
I'm overreacting back and forth.

362
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,280
And So what happens is then you 
get into this, I call it 

363
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:26,480
investigator mode, where your 
whole mission in life is to get 

364
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,680
the evidence and the truth and 
shove it in their face because 

365
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:31,840
you think then they'll have to 
admit it. 

366
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,120
You could shove evidence in 
their face all day long. 

367
00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,400
It's just so counterproductive. 
It's like now you're invested in

368
00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,080
trying to make them admit that 
what you know is happening. 

369
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,800
And So what I tell people is I 
say, listen, if you think it's 

370
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:45,960
happening, it's probably 
happening. 

371
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,360
But some like, you know, the 
line in the back of your hand 

372
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:52,320
and their energy's off. 
Like same way is like if you 

373
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,720
have a kid and they're sick, you
just know, like when you live 

374
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,280
with someone sometime you just 
like you don't have to prove it.

375
00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:58,600
You don't have to get them to 
admit it. 

376
00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:02,280
So some of these things, we 
validate their feelings, of 

377
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:03,600
course. 
And I think that brings down the

378
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,400
emotional because they feel 
seeing them. 

379
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,680
I'm like, no, you're not crazy. 
I mean, I'm sure you're right. 

380
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,520
And that DE escalates it right 
then and then teaching them some

381
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,200
of these other things. 
But it's still hard to control, 

382
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,160
even when you know what to do 
and what not to do and all the 

383
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:19,840
right answers. 
Yeah, and it's hard not to be 

384
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:21,520
the bad guy like you talked 
about that earlier. 

385
00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,120
And Speaking of that, like that 
role, how do you step out of the

386
00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:28,400
role without becoming a doormat?
Like how do you stop being 

387
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,480
because the addict's going to 
think you're the bad guy if 

388
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,000
you're trying to hold them 
responsible or you're 

389
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,200
investigating like you said, 
then automatically they're 

390
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,160
feeling like I'm on the defense 
and I'm doing something wrong. 

391
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,880
Yeah, and that addiction wants 
you to stay in that bag and 

392
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:44,240
roll. 
So once you're in it, even when 

393
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,080
you start getting out of it, 
it'll try to pull you back in 

394
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:48,320
it. 
It'll pick a fight with you. 

395
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:50,000
It'll pitch out your old 
lettons. 

396
00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:52,120
It wants you to stay in the 
villain role. 

397
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,040
You decide you're not going to 
be the dollar out of the 

398
00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:58,760
consequences. 
Now you have to there's some 

399
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,200
boundaries you have to set for 
your own safety or the safety of

400
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,360
other people in the house or 
your own emotional health. 

401
00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,520
So you decide what the 
boundaries are as far as what 

402
00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:12,040
you can do and not there for 
you, not for another person. 

403
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,640
They're they're about they're 
not like rules. 

404
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:17,600
Boundaries and rules are two 
different things. 

405
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,440
And it's like consequences 
inventions like you, if you're 

406
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,600
setting boundaries because you 
think it's going to control 

407
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,840
their behavior, you're wrong. 
It's not right. 

408
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:30,280
If I find drugs in this house, 
someone's an addict, there's 

409
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,600
drugs in here. 
I don't care what you say, it's 

410
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:33,840
just not. 
It's just happening. 

411
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,280
Finding where you absolutely 
have to draw the line in the 

412
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,040
sand. 
And there are some, right? 

413
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:39,520
Like you should draw those lines
in the sand. 

414
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,760
But other than that, stop trying
to control the use. 

415
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,360
Instead of doing this whole 
thing, like you said, you were 

416
00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:49,440
only going to drink 3 and I'll 
count it and you drink 4 already

417
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:51,840
wonders you won't let that roll.
I'm going to get out. 

418
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,880
He's going to drink three. 
I know he's going to drink 10. 

419
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:58,200
I'm going, I'm going to sit back
and let him because that's the 

420
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,480
only way that person is going to
learn. 

421
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,720
It is not working for them to 
try to drink just three. 

422
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:05,480
So we're not trying to slow it 
down. 

423
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,040
We're trying to fast track this 
mess. 

424
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:10,520
Don't help them keep it under 
control. 

425
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,520
Don't do that. 
And once you shift your mind, it

426
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,480
just feels totally different. 
Yeah, exactly. 

427
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,320
And. 
Then the consequences hit, 

428
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,280
getting up in the morning to try
to make it to work, all those 

429
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,440
different things I want to get 
into 'cause this one was really 

430
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:25,760
good. 
The sorry cycle. 

431
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,640
And I know families get caught 
in this cycle of empty apologies

432
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,720
and we don't know what to do 
because it's constantly I'm 

433
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,480
sorry, I'll change. 
I have a good friend. 

434
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:40,000
Her daughter was a teenager and 
used drugs till she passed away 

435
00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:44,520
but here it's 151617 years old. 
But it was constantly I'm sorry 

436
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,240
mom, I'm sorry mom. 
I'll change but nothing ever 

437
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,000
really happens. 
How do you spot the difference 

438
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,280
between a real apology or just 
excuses over and over again? 

439
00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:57,600
There's a few ways. 
One is if someone's apologizing,

440
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,400
or especially someone's 
promising to change because 

441
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,520
you've caught them doing 
something and you back them into

442
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,640
a corner, then it's probably 
just a defensive stance, right? 

443
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:07,920
And I'm not saying they don't 
mean it all. 

444
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:09,680
Maybe it's somewhere in the Gray
area, I don't know. 

445
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,920
But when someone brings it up 
themselves or comes to you with 

446
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:19,040
it, the likelihood that it's 
genuine is really high. 

447
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,920
I know I can't keep doing this. 
I know it's putting you in a bad

448
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:23,760
position. 
I know that this is not good for

449
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:25,160
me. 
That's probably genuine. 

450
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,480
Now, that doesn't mean that 
they're going to be 100% 

451
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,640
successful at fixing at that 
point, but it does mean that in 

452
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,080
their mind, they're probably 
sincere and they're working and 

453
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:35,960
they're getting closer and 
closer to figuring it out. 

454
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,720
Yeah, we all know eating bad 
food is bad for us but yet we 

455
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:42,520
all a lot of us will still do 
it. 

456
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,080
I know I do sometimes here I'm 
drinking even though it's sugar 

457
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,400
free. 
I'm drinking a 0 sugar mound Dew

458
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,920
which is probably all chemicals.
But we expect the addicts in our

459
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,360
life to just stop it no matter 
the consequences. 

460
00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:57,320
Like I know if I drawing I'm 
trying to drink the 0 sugar one 

461
00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,760
but who knows what it's going to
do to me but I still drink it. 

462
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,800
That's the same thing as 
addiction, same exact thing. 

463
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,480
Why do we have such high 
expectations for addicts? 

464
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,080
Well, I think they come from a 
place. 

465
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,920
Ultimately we know if someone's 
addicted, they probably aren't 

466
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:15,600
going to bring it into a 
manageable level. 

467
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,000
He is not. 
But what's important for 

468
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,480
families to understand is that 
before people are going to 

469
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,840
completely give anything up, go 
sober, abstinent, whatever, 

470
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,440
they're going to have to go 
through this long phase of 

471
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,760
bargaining. 
It's a grief process. 

472
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:31,280
They don't want to give it up 
completely. 

473
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,400
They want to try all these 
bargains. 

474
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:34,600
Let me just do it on the 
weekends. 

475
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:36,800
Let me do it every now and then.
Let me set a financial limit on 

476
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:38,240
it. 
Let me drink beer and not 

477
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,920
liquor. 
Let me only drink after 6:00 at 

478
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:43,600
night, no more than three 
glasses of wine. 

479
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,760
All the things. 
And it makes you as the family 

480
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,480
member, so angry because you 
think they don't get it. 

481
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,040
They don't mean it. 
They're never going to stop. 

482
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,240
They always say that. 
But if you understand that 

483
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,440
actually when they do, that's a 
step towards change and they're 

484
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,280
just figuring it out and right, 
you can speed up the process. 

485
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,040
You can't get someone to skip 
it. 

486
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,880
There's some things you can do 
to like, let's move it, let's 

487
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,400
try it, let's do it. 
Don't we mad if they say it and 

488
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,640
they don't do it and then you 
have empathy forum when it 

489
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,520
doesn't work, we're going to 
move through that faster. 

490
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,760
They're going to have to try it 
a few times because they're like

491
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:17,600
and do it right at a time. 
We try that again and then 

492
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,600
they're going to say, I just 
that just doesn't work for me. 

493
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:21,880
It always eventually it goes 
bad. 

494
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,200
They'll learn that. 
And if you just let it, they'll 

495
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,560
learn it faster. 
I've seen that over and over 

496
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,440
again where that realization 
hits us. 

497
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,760
I've tried about 20 different 
things and none of this works. 

498
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,240
You got someone mark all, check 
all the boxes at lake and think 

499
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,680
of Yep. 
And hopefully quick. 

500
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:38,600
Let's try it. 
Let's do it, Yeah. 

501
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,080
So you're letting them do pretty
much, let's speed this up. 

502
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,520
Let's let you do figure you're 
going to figure this shit out on

503
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,640
your own because you mentioned 
boundaries. 

504
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,480
So the boundaries are for let's 
say the boundaries are for me 

505
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:55,160
and I'm dealing with this attic.
How do I hold the boundary 

506
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:59,440
without them feeling the blame 
or the guilt or me even having a

507
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,640
victim mindset, which is harder 
not to not to be sitting there 

508
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,560
and thinking I'm a victim. 
I'm a victim. 

509
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,320
Look at him. 
He said he was going to drink 3.

510
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,480
Now he's in his 10th beer and 
then he's feeling sorry for 

511
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:10,920
yourself. 
Do you have a script, a 

512
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,680
compassionate script or 
something when your boundary is 

513
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,840
being attacked or you feel like 
it's being attacked? 

514
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,520
Sometimes, no matter what you do
and how you say it, they're just

515
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,680
not going to like it. 
Part of it is just understanding

516
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:22,880
that they're not going to like 
the women. 

517
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,000
That's OK. 
Now I think it's important the 

518
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,600
way you say it, you convey it 
and the way you conduct yourself

519
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,440
just for your own integrity and 
for your own sense of self. 

520
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:33,760
I want you to do it the right 
way. 

521
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,880
So for example, like a boundary,
a reasonable boundary that a lot

522
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,880
of people have is if you come 
home and you're drunk and you're

523
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,800
being nasty, then I'm just going
to take down what's up. 

524
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,960
I'm just going to go in room and
read or I'll just watch Netflix 

525
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,400
and I even tell people not even 
to announce it, just extend it 

526
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:48,720
back. 
Just let them in my face. 

527
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,480
But a lot of times that person 
that's drinking or whatever, 

528
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,440
they'll notice that and they'll 
be like, oh, you never want to 

529
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,520
be with me when and they'll 
start a fight. 

530
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,200
No one likes a lemon and they 
may not like, but I still want 

531
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,600
you to conduct yourself with 
empathy and integrity and 

532
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,280
honestly have as few as you can 
get away with because you have 

533
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,600
to back up whatever you say. 
So if you can't back it up, then

534
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,960
you can't have it as a boundary.
You can't only have boundaries 

535
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,120
for you. 
Then it's not a boundary. 

536
00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:24,520
Like it can be a request, it can
be a rule, but it's not a 

537
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,760
boundary if you aren't willing 
or ready to really back it up. 

538
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,840
Like the whole I'm going to 
throw you out thing. 

539
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,800
I'm like, do not say that unless
you're ready to do it. 

540
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,040
And do not say that because you 
think it's going to make them 

541
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:38,360
stop, because they're not going 
to stop. 

542
00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:40,720
They're going to do more. 
And if you say you're going to 

543
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,760
do it and then you don't do it, 
then you're really going to be 

544
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:44,680
mad at yourself because you're 
going to be like, now I look 

545
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,720
like an idiot. 
Now you're mad at yourself 

546
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,400
because you don't hold to it. 
Yeah, and I feel like the having

547
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,720
that compassion part, like you 
said, because even if you put 

548
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,880
yourself in their shoes, let's 
say it was an addiction. 

549
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,800
Let's say you just had a really 
bad boss and you go to work all 

550
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:00,400
the time and it's really good 
pace. 

551
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,600
You deal with this bad boss, but
he belittles you, He makes you 

552
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,080
feel like shit. 
He's constantly telling you 

553
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,840
you're doing these things wrong.
That's the same thing you're 

554
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,640
doing to the addict. 
So instead of waiting for the 

555
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,200
fight cause some people can get 
addicted to the drama. 

556
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,280
I talked to and they were like 
they were like I can stay in my 

557
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,120
ground and I'm ready when he 
comes home and he's been 

558
00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:23,560
drinking to let him have it. 
And I'm like how often this 

559
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,720
happen 3 or 4 times a week. 
It's like insanity. 

560
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,600
Just a constant circle over and 
over again. 

561
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:29,520
Right is. 
That a boundary. 

562
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,320
Yes, as far as what works for 
the other person, you can 

563
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,560
alternate between being 
positive, which is using 

564
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,440
positive reinforcement, and 
neutral. 

565
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,720
Positive and neutral is the 
better formula. 

566
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,720
When you get negative, it works 
against you. 

567
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,440
Whenever possible, go into that.
Most they're doing a behavior 

568
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,760
you don't like, Just go neutral 
about it. 

569
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,280
Don't have anything, just ease 
away. 

570
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,200
Don't have anything about it. 
If they're doing something you 

571
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,720
do, call that out, reinforce it 
and say, oh, yesterday you were 

572
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,240
so great. 
I enjoyed our time together. 

573
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,000
Do you feel like, let's use that
one? 

574
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,880
He comes home and he's arguing 
all the time, only when he 

575
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,360
drinks. 
He's nice when he doesn't drink.

576
00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:08,640
But if he argues, would you have
a conversation when he's sober 

577
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,840
to say, hey, here's the boundary
that I have because I don't want

578
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,320
us arguing. 
It's not good for you. 

579
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,240
It's not good for me, it's not 
good for our relationship. 

580
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,200
I love you. 
Would you have that type of a 

581
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:19,760
conversation with them when 
they're sober? 

582
00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:22,960
I don't think it's always 
necessary to announce your 

583
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:24,960
boundaries, and sometimes 
announcing your boundaries is 

584
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,840
just picking a fight, honestly. 
Somehow if I announce it, 

585
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,680
they're going to listen. 
They're really going to. 

586
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,360
Oh, come on. 
A lot of times it's just even 

587
00:27:32,360 --> 00:27:35,880
better if you don't announce it 
because then when you do go into

588
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,920
the room, then they have to 
announce if it's a safety issue,

589
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,040
like if I think you're drinking,
I'm not going to let you drive 

590
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,240
the kids. 
But no, I don't think you need 

591
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,480
to announce every one of them. 
Boundaries are for you. 

592
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:47,560
They're not for them. 
So it's. 

593
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,480
Just K, I'm tired, have a good 
night, love you. 

594
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,600
And then go lay down in bed and 
watch Netflix this kid off and 

595
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,400
let them be there alone and do 
their thing. 

596
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,240
I want to get into relapse. 
This is one of the things that 

597
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,520
Dwayne and I talked a lot about 
on our podcast because everybody

598
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,640
relapse, but it's no one wants 
to talk about it. 

599
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,160
Right. 
You can't be perfect. 

600
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,080
No one can be perfect. 
It's part of the learning 

601
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,240
process. 
And family members reps too. 

602
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,200
Like you're doing the whole 
Amber method and then you lose 

603
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,240
your coal. 
It's all right, you relapse. 

604
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,200
We're going to call it back. 
What is the, how do you handle, 

605
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,760
like, evidence of a relapse? 
So let's say he hasn't drank for

606
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,120
two or three weeks and then you 
look in the trash and there's an

607
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:27,160
empty bottle then. 
Or there was a text message you 

608
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,080
weren't supposed to see about 
him and his buddies going out 

609
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:31,720
drinking. 
What's the thing to do? 

610
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,920
Is it to like just ignore it? 
Because I know you talk about 

611
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:36,920
like the first 30 minutes after 
the discovery. 

612
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,880
It depends on where a person's 
at in their stages of change and

613
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,280
where you're trying to get them 
to. 

614
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,680
For example, if someone is still
in some level of denial or 

615
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,640
they're still doing the 
bargaining thing and you're just

616
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,640
going to let that play out 
because we're not going to get 

617
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:55,440
past that until they learn that.
If someone's been sober and 

618
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,400
they've been in recovery, like 
really doing well and they had a

619
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,040
slip, bringing that to the 
surface and making it known 

620
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,360
sometimes can stop the slip. 
Because if they feel like the 

621
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,840
sneaky thoughts just get in or 
she doesn't know, then sometimes

622
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:11,720
it will continue. 
And sometimes just having that 

623
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,880
little bit of accountability can
help. 

624
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,880
I feel like you have to look at 
where someone's at in their 

625
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,920
stages and match your behavior 
to where they're at and what 

626
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:21,840
bring it up. 
Number one, I would say don't 

627
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:23,720
ask the question because they're
going to allow you. 

628
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,080
They can't help, but it's a 
reflex, OK, It's just an 

629
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,280
immediate I didn't do it. 
We're going to be really how 

630
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,520
they like. 
So if you know it, say it it 

631
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,840
nicely and say it as I'm on your
side. 

632
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:37,560
You're out in trouble. 
If you found the empties in the 

633
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,480
bottle of the whatever, whatever
you can say, hey, I just want 

634
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,800
you to know I saw these. 
I know you're really trying and 

635
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:45,560
you've been doing really good 
lately. 

636
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,720
I know you're going to figure 
this out room for them to 

637
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,280
comment because their initial 
reaction is going to be 

638
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:51,960
defensiveness. 
You cannot help it. 

639
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,920
Or if you call me out, even if I
know I'm wrong, I'm going to 

640
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,280
plant the seed and walk off and 
let it settle in. 

641
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,080
Their initial thoughts going to 
be, why are you going to the 

642
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:02,640
chat? 
That's their first stop. 

643
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,680
And then if you don't, if you're
not sitting there arguing back 

644
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,600
and forth with it, the rest will
rise to the surface and their 

645
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,200
own stuff will kick in. 
So you sometimes don't trick 

646
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,840
them, don't trap them, don't do 
that. 

647
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,040
Yeah, this sounds like a mother 
mothering over someone. 

648
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,920
What is the like as far as the 
relapse goes that that's a 

649
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,360
perfect way to handle it. 
But most people when they have a

650
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,120
relapse, it's usually just a 
trigger of something, whether 

651
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,080
it's like a breakup they're 
going through or they lose their

652
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,640
job and then that kind of 
triggers it. 

653
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,600
How do you, if it's something 
like horrific that happened in 

654
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,120
the life without condoning, but 
obviously if it's your husband 

655
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,160
comes home because I had a 
really bad day at work, blah, 

656
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,120
blah, blah, and then you see the
empty bottle the next morning, 

657
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,720
then you know there was a 
trigger. 

658
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,000
How do you handle that? 
Do you handle the same way or 

659
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,320
don't even bother with the 
trigger? 

660
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:56,080
Don't even think about it? 
But in the example you gave, if 

661
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,720
the husband comes on, he's had a
really bad day. 

662
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,480
And then the next day you see 
the evidence that I probably 

663
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:02,960
would gently bring that to the 
surface. 

664
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:08,160
And I'll say, hey, I want you to
know I saw this because the we, 

665
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,320
I encourage people have 
addictions to be above forward 

666
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:11,600
things. 
But families need to be above 

667
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,240
board too because they're lying 
and sneaking just as not just 

668
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,680
this whole Tom and Jerry game. 
I'm like, you need to you can't 

669
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,240
be sneaking anything. 
So you can just say hi. 

670
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,960
Just want, you know, I saw it. 
I also know you you had a really

671
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,200
rough day yesterday. 
And if you just say it that way,

672
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,880
if you say it with empathy, 
their thought will be in their 

673
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,320
head that saw it's a reaction. 
Like they'll have a better 

674
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,840
response to themselves than 
anything you could say. 

675
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:36,480
Yeah. 
What does that mean? 

676
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,040
And what is one kind of a habit 
or something that they can 

677
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,280
practice stop their old thinking
from derailing their new life? 

678
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,480
I feel, and I think I was 
listening to one of your podcast

679
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:49,840
recently, Jason, I can't 
remember the guest, but you guys

680
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,080
were talking about this. 
We can have these old narrative 

681
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:57,120
scripts, these assumptions that 
we decide about ourselves and 

682
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,920
sometimes our subconscious and 
would like, for example, if I 

683
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:06,240
think I never make it past six 
weeks, I hit this wall every 

684
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,920
time I get to six weeks. 
You don't even realize it, but 

685
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,600
you're subconsciously sabotaging
yourself to set that up. 

686
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,360
And so when you can recognize 
maybe that you're a lot of times

687
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,320
you don't know that you're doing
it to yourself, but you've 

688
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,920
convinced yourself that you 
always relapse, that you're 

689
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,360
never going to get it. 
I'm like, that's not hope. 

690
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,840
They'll say, oh, I could never 
win that. 

691
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,840
And I was like, you definitely 
can't with that thought. 

692
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,000
These scripts, it's important 
how to yourself. 

693
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,360
We decide things about ourselves
sometimes when we're really 

694
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,720
young, sometimes we don't even 
reassess. 

695
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,120
You stayed sober six weeks, 
That's what, 6, That's 35 days 

696
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,040
in a row. 
You knew how to do it. 

697
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:46,720
Clearly you do know how to do 
it. 

698
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,960
Clearly you can't do it. 
There's nothing magical about 

699
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,200
this day. 
And so helping people to 

700
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:56,160
confront those like irrational 
beliefs, negative assumptions, 

701
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,800
whatever you want to call it, 
can bring them to the surface 

702
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,600
and then people can sometimes 
override them. 

703
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,480
Yeah, One of the things I think 
a lot of people will do, 

704
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,880
especially when it comes to 
setting a day or whatever, even 

705
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,240
in recovery systems that are out
there, they have gifts they'll 

706
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,440
give you for the amount of days 
or whatever. 

707
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,480
Interesting that. 
I don't know if it's because we 

708
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,920
have birthdays or anniversaries.
It's like the date becomes like 

709
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,280
this all important thing. 
I've been recovered for this 

710
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:21,760
many years or whatever it may 
be. 

711
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,560
Do you feel like that is part of
it or do you think it's good for

712
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,720
someone to count days like if it
helps them? 

713
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,440
It's good for some and not good 
for others. 

714
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,520
Some people really, they have 
the counter on their phone and 

715
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,720
they just get excited when they 
go up that for that same person 

716
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,720
who it's very helpful for, it 
can backfire on them if they 

717
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,080
have a slip because they'll 
immediately start thinking, I've

718
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,680
screwed it all up at day one. 
Oh my gosh. 

719
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,560
And then they just feel defeated
and hopeless. 

720
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,680
And immediately the way I 
responded, and I'm like, no, if 

721
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,760
you had 153 days and you messed 
up today, I'm not going to give 

722
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:01,520
you 154, but tomorrow we're 
going to be on 154, OK? 

723
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,200
Like I said, you can't undo 
someone's recovery. 

724
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,880
You can't unlearn what you've 
learned. 

725
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,679
I sort of damage control it 
because the last thing you want 

726
00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:12,520
someone to do is get in that 
hopeless, and it's that 

727
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,280
hopeless. 
So I move in and try to hit that

728
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,280
head on. 
Do you have you ever seen it 

729
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,199
like worth? 
You've been sober 8 months out 

730
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:23,560
of 12 months, so that's awesome.
For the whole year that means 

731
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,520
you've been sober. 
He's been 240 days. 

732
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,080
Is it just like a reframing 
thing? 

733
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,760
It's a, it's a reframing thing. 
It's a how do I make meaning of 

734
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,639
what those days mean? 
And we make it mean something in

735
00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:36,239
the positive. 
We can make it mean something in

736
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,080
the negative. 
Then there's just a sort of 

737
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,679
other category of people that 
having a big number of days is a

738
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:46,719
trigger for them to use because 
they're like, it's kind of like 

739
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:48,679
when you're on diet and you're 
like, I've been good all week, 

740
00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:51,280
now have a cheat day. 
Is it once you open that gate 

741
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:52,679
with addiction, you can't close 
it back. 

742
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:55,920
So the thought is the same or 
the thought sometimes is this is

743
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,640
crazy, but people will stay 
sober for lengths at a time to 

744
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,160
prove to themselves that they're
not an addict. 

745
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,720
So it's just a test the whole 
time and said, oh, alcoholic, 

746
00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:05,760
they couldn't go 30 days without
drinking. 

747
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,360
So I can still drink. 
So it's the meaning they're 

748
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:10,960
attaching to the day. 
No, that makes sense. 

749
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,160
And what do you think is up with
like why is there such? 

750
00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:18,480
Is it just old school like this 
abstinence thing, like where you

751
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,360
either are on the wagon or 
you're off the wagon? 

752
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,440
No, but recovery's not that way.
It's messy. 

753
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:25,120
It's not. 
You're not going to have, like 

754
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,120
you said, they're going to be 
drinking wine, not Whitsky. 

755
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,840
They're going to be maybe trying
weed instead of meth. 

756
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,720
There's there's all these 
different, like you said, messy 

757
00:35:33,720 --> 00:35:36,040
ways. 
So why is there such a thing 

758
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,640
with like abstinence? 
And I think that there's some 

759
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:43,240
validity to that because I think
those of us have been around the

760
00:35:43,240 --> 00:35:46,800
block enough times. 
We know that it really only gets

761
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,640
better when you completely in my
heart in most situations. 

762
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,640
I'm an abstinence fan. 
I also understand the human 

763
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,320
element of allowing people their
process and the trial and error 

764
00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,880
and realizing that they're on 
their way of figuring it out 

765
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,320
when they're trying that. 
So do I think they need to get 

766
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:03,760
all the way sober? 
Yeah, probably. 

767
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:05,800
Occasionally. 
They're figuring it out. 

768
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:10,280
Give people believe in people 
that they're they are smart and 

769
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,480
they will figure this out. 
Have you done any? 

770
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,360
I'm going to ask this because I 
think it's something that it's 

771
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,680
I've been finding with addicts, 
the more I've been talking with 

772
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,280
them and I found this in my own 
life. 

773
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,560
I have a food addiction. 
So that was my I handle alcohol.

774
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:26,080
It's weird. 
I can handle alcohol, not a big 

775
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:27,720
deal. 
I don't like drinking because it

776
00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:30,240
makes me not feel good. 
But when it comes to any 

777
00:36:30,240 --> 00:36:34,400
trigger, I'm out like I'm 110% 
I'm going to get the 12 Taco 

778
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:35,880
packs. 
I'm going to go through three or

779
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:41,520
four different cruise and on top
of it, I'm going to make myself 

780
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:42,640
sick because I'm going to eat so
much. 

781
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,680
The whole thing, ice cream. 
So I understand. 

782
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,320
Obviously mine's kind of mild. 
The worst thing it does is make 

783
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,160
you throw up. 
At the same time, there's this 

784
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,280
whole idea of not feeling good 
enough. 

785
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:59,520
Why did I F this up again, you 
know, and then go to the diction

786
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,040
like that. 
That's that's how I see it when 

787
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,680
I talk to addicts. 
Do you feel like it's a 

788
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,000
reprogramming of finding where 
do you feel like it's trauma 

789
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:09,800
based? 
Is it a childhood thing that 

790
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,480
they go through 'cause I have a 
story where I figured out that 

791
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,280
it was my childhood that caused 
the food addiction. 

792
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,600
Do you do that with people? 
Do you try to figure out like 

793
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:24,040
what's caused the addiction? 
I I spend a lot of time with 

794
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,280
people trying to figure out what
their triggers are. 

795
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,000
I don't believe that everyone 
who has an addiction has trauma.

796
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,760
It's like this, if someone's 
addicted to nicotine, we don't 

797
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:34,800
think in our mind, oh, they must
have childhood trauma. 

798
00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:37,960
Wait, you smoke serious long 
enough, you want to have an 

799
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:39,640
addiction. 
And that's just the truth of 

800
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,440
addictive things like drink long
enough. 

801
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,360
If you put an addictive 
substance in your body long 

802
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,200
enough, you're going to develop 
a dependency on just the way it 

803
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,280
works. 
Like this is where our bodies 

804
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,360
are supposed to work. 
And so I don't think that 

805
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:56,000
everyone does have trauma. 
However, if you do have trauma, 

806
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,360
your level of uncomfortableness 
is much greater than other 

807
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,720
people's, and so the idea that 
you might be seeking some sort 

808
00:38:02,720 --> 00:38:08,480
of self soothing increases the 
fact that you might grab on to 

809
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,360
something faster. 
But I don't care if you've had 

810
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,480
it or not, if you put it in long
enough, you're going to get a 

811
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,120
problem. 
Yeah, that's so cool because I 

812
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,000
was addicted to nicotine for a 
long time, the pouches and all 

813
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,680
that stuff, but I never thought,
oh, this is the food. 

814
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,440
I found that it was because my 
family argued a lot and we would

815
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,160
go to fast foods because we're 
extremely poor, but so that any 

816
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,480
type of trauma was always like 
my family would make up for it 

817
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,840
with food. 
Trained you like behaviorally 

818
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:34,200
almost. 
Yeah, yeah, it was like a 

819
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,600
behavior. 
Thing anything bad food will 

820
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,600
make it better. 
And then our house was full of 

821
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,400
everything. 
We erased super poor so our 

822
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:42,920
house was full of box 
everything. 

823
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,560
Yeah, I relate to that. 
I lived off the sugar like when 

824
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,280
I see people and I talk to 
people, but that's so 

825
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,080
interesting. 
I never even thought about that.

826
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,560
It's hey, these nicotine pouches
there's you didn't mean you 

827
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:56,000
weren't beat when you were 
little kids. 

828
00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,840
You just happened to take them. 
That makes so much sense. 

829
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,360
Like for example, if you in the 
story that you just told, even 

830
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,560
if you took out the part about 
when bad things would happen, 

831
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:08,960
we'd go to McDonald's to feel 
better. 

832
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,840
Even if you took that out and 
just let the other pieces in 

833
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,800
which I grew up in a house like 
that too, you developed that 

834
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,840
sugar addiction. 
So you might not have been 

835
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,000
behaviorally think you still 
would have come out with 

836
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,720
dependency. 
Yeah, I just noticed if I had 

837
00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:30,240
went through a relationship and 
I broke up with a girlfriend or 

838
00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:31,720
something, I would just binge 
eat. 

839
00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:34,800
So I knew that there was like 
some connection. 

840
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,960
If I got really scared or 
nervous, I would just eat a 

841
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,080
bunch. 
So over and over again I could 

842
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:41,840
see that. 
That it's a pattern. 

843
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,120
Right. 
Yeah, I want to kind of get into

844
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:44,640
it. 
I want to. 

845
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:46,280
We're closing up on the hour 
here. 

846
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,320
So I know you have an article 
that says you can overcome 

847
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,320
addiction on your own. 
Now that's empowering to me. 

848
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,320
And we have, we've seen a lot of
people that's happened. 

849
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:58,640
But you also run a coaching 
business for families. 

850
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:00,400
How do you reconcile those two 
things? 

851
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,400
And when is it right for a 
person to go it alone? 

852
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,600
And when is it critical for the 
family to get expert help? 

853
00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:11,280
OK, I think it all depends on 
what you mean by alone, people 

854
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,840
that are reluctant to get help. 
But a big part of it is I can 

855
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:15,640
handle this. 
I can figure this out on my own.

856
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:21,000
And what I say is you're in luck
because no one can help you do 

857
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,240
this in reality. 
Like when you have a medical 

858
00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:25,800
condition, you go and a surgeon 
can fix it or you come out 

859
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,000
fixed. 
There is really no such thing 

860
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,480
like that. 
There is no other way an 

861
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,960
addiction. 
So it is going to you doing it 

862
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:38,080
alone no matter what. 
Now you can expedite the process

863
00:40:38,720 --> 00:40:41,440
by getting some people, some 
advisors on board. 

864
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:46,160
Like for example, I could figure
out how to build a house or 

865
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,040
something eventually and I could
figure that out. 

866
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,960
Or I could just at least hire a 
consultant to tell me what the 

867
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,360
fastest way and then maybe help 
me avoid some pitfalls. 

868
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,520
It's not me saying don't get 
help. 

869
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,760
It's me saying, yeah, you're 
going to do as long because I 

870
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:01,840
can't do it for you. 
If I could, I would. 

871
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:03,720
We can't do it for someone else.
It is you. 

872
00:41:03,720 --> 00:41:07,520
And so a lot of it's just about 
confronting that thought. 

873
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,640
If I can do it myself, the other
reason why it's helpful to have 

874
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,440
and I don't, it doesn't matter. 
I mean, how you get these other 

875
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,400
people or they don't have to be 
sponsors. 

876
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,560
They can be counselors, coaches,
friends, church leader, whatever

877
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:23,000
you want them to be. 
But the problem with addiction 

878
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,760
is that we lie to ourselves. 
It's just, it's a defense 

879
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,440
mechanism of rationalization and
justification. 

880
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:34,640
And so I think it's important to
tell someone that you're doing 

881
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,800
it because if you try to just 
like recover in secrecy, it's 

882
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,160
just really hard to hold your 
own self accountable because we 

883
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,000
trick ourselves. 
So I do think that it is 

884
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,440
important and helpful to have 
some other people on board. 

885
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,680
I just don't know that you have 
to go to treatment. 

886
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,280
I mean, you don't necessarily, 
sometimes you do, but you might 

887
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,320
not necessarily have to go to 90
days of treatment. 

888
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:57,600
You may not necessarily have to 
go to 12 step. 

889
00:41:57,720 --> 00:42:00,760
There's some sort of things I 
think you need to do to help, 

890
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,160
but I don't know that you have 
to do that whole full course 

891
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:04,600
thing. 
No, that makes sense. 

892
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,360
Yeah, that like having a coach. 
I never understood why it wasn't

893
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,240
more prevalent. 
Having it, it would be so much 

894
00:42:11,240 --> 00:42:12,240
easier. 
Let's say you're dealing with 

895
00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:14,120
somebody like a high functioning
alcoholic. 

896
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,800
It'd be so much easier to do 
Zoom calls when have a 

897
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:19,360
conversation. 
And then you could do it in the 

898
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,400
privacy of your own home. 
Because next thing you know, you

899
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,240
don't want to be like going to 
some meeting, which we 

900
00:42:24,240 --> 00:42:26,040
encourage. 
Do whatever you need to do get 

901
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:27,560
covered. 
If meetings are great, that's 

902
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,800
awesome. 
If being a part of your program,

903
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:31,720
that's awesome, whatever it may 
be. 

904
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,760
But I think at the end of the 
day, that realization had to 

905
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,000
come in my mind. 
I've talked to Dwayne. 

906
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,200
After years and years of him 
using drugs and alcohol, he had 

907
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,200
to have the epiphany that 
moment. 

908
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,360
I'm not doing this anymore. 
Yeah, so it's getting a 

909
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,040
consultant and I deal a lot with
real high functioning people who

910
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,080
a lot of times don't want to go 
to treat any kind of group 

911
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:57,360
setting for a lot of some valid 
reasons, but they might be 

912
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,240
willing to talk to a coach 
privately, you know, and 

913
00:43:01,240 --> 00:43:03,680
especially a coach first because
you don't get a diagnosis. 

914
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:04,920
No one's going to merit like 
you. 

915
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,600
There's just some ways that if 
you're a family member and you 

916
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,160
have a loved 1, like this might 
be a much more digestible 

917
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,560
option. 
You got to know your loved one 

918
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,840
and be like, are they going to 
worry about their reputation? 

919
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,120
Just like are they going to, 
they're going to knowing what 

920
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,720
options to to throw out there 
based on the person and when to 

921
00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:26,160
throw them. 
I think it's so adorned too 

922
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,640
because I was in Somalia, Bosnia
and hitting the Marine Corps. 

923
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:30,560
Saw a lot of shit so I got 
labeled BTSD. 

924
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:35,240
The a living hell for me would 
be and I use the VA and they 

925
00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:37,640
have like great and we do zoom 
calls and stuff like that. 

926
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,920
A living hell for me would be me
sitting around a group with 

927
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:45,040
other veterans and them talking 
about their 20 years. 

928
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,960
I did this and I was involved in
this and hope that I'm 

929
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:49,960
introverted too. 
So it's I don't want to meet new

930
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:51,440
people. 
I don't want to sit around in a 

931
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:52,760
circle. 
I don't want to talk about this 

932
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,160
shit. 
So I get it like 100% if some 

933
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,560
that way. 
And just because someone's that 

934
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,320
way doesn't mean that they don't
want to change or they are not 

935
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,360
really. 
There's a legitimate just 

936
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,440
personality things, likes and 
dislikes, preferences, introvert

937
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,080
extra. 
You got to take all that into 

938
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,640
consideration with people. 
Yeah, that's so good. 

939
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:14,040
Thank you for putting that out 
there. 

940
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,320
I want to ask one last question.
After 20 years in this field to 

941
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,840
help thousands of families, if 
you could permanently erase one 

942
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,320
single word or phrase from the 
entire vocabulary of addiction 

943
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,200
recovery, what would it be and 
why? 

944
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,800
Probably it would be the whole 
year powerless thing. 

945
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:30,560
Whether the addiction or the 
family member. 

946
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,600
There's so much you can do. 
I understand why they say it. 

947
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:36,640
While it's in the lingo, what 
they're really trying to say is 

948
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:38,480
you're not going to manage it 
well. 

949
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:39,480
You're not going to find a 
valence. 

950
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,280
That's why they say it. 
But it gives the wrong 

951
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,840
impression sometimes. 
Amber, thank you for sharing so 

952
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:46,440
much wisdom and hope with us 
today. 

953
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,840
Thanks for having me, yeah. 
Yeah, and, and if anything 

954
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,440
talked about today resonated 
with you, I want you guys to 

955
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,800
find Amber on YouTube. 
I want all of my listeners to 

956
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,760
subscribe to her channel. 
And then also check out your 

957
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:00,840
Family Recovery Academy. 
Is that what it's called? 

958
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,200
Do you have a website for that? 
That is our website. 

959
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,600
It's called Family Recovery 
Academy dot online. 

960
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:07,800
Oh, OK. 
YouTube is the best place to 

961
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:09,200
find me. 
Yeah. 

962
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,720
Whatever angry you're coming at 
it from, just put the show it's 

963
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:12,400
on. 
Yeah. 

964
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:13,560
Awesome. 
Perfect.