1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,080 The vast majority of patients that we saw, even though this 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,720 wasn't a pediatric hospital, it really struck me as a 3 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,360 pediatrician that the vast majority of patients we were 4 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:12,200 seeing were actually women and children. 5 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:19,920 And it was just another example of how this is affecting the 6 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,720 community in a way that is unspeakable. 7 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,200 Hello and welcome. I'm Avril Benoit, CEO of Doctors 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,320 Without Borders USA. Today. 9 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,200 We're looking at Gaza through a humanitarian lens. 10 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:41,120 More than a year and a half of war has destroyed thousands of 11 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:45,160 lives. It's forcibly displaced over 1.9 12 00:00:45,160 --> 00:00:47,360 million people, often many times. 13 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:52,360 Much of the strip lays in ruins and humanitarian needs are more 14 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,880 dire than ever. With me is Doctor Aqsa Durrani, 15 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,760 AUS based physician and pediatrician whose latest 16 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,520 assignment was at our field hospital in Der Al Bala in 17 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,440 central Gaza. Aqsa, thank you for sharing your 18 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:08,400 experience with us. Thanks for having me. 19 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,240 Now everybody knows that Gaza is incredibly dangerous. 20 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,840 It's a time of horror there. Why did you decide to take this 21 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:23,760 assignment? I think that our organization 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:28,360 has a storied history of going where people need us the most, 23 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,800 and that's why I'm proud to to work with MSF. 24 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,240 But I can't imagine a place in the world right now where we're 25 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:40,120 more needed than in Gaza. And I think the personal risks 26 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:45,040 that we take pale in comparison to the risks that our 27 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,800 Palestinian colleagues are taking every single day when 28 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,880 they're, you know, facing bombardment, facing displacement 29 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:57,240 and still going to work. So it was important to me to to 30 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:02,920 show up and to be there and as part of our shared humanity to 31 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:07,040 provide care and to use the skills that I've been given to, 32 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:08,759 you know, be with them in this time. 33 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,360 It does cross my mind also as a leader sometimes that I should 34 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,960 always be willing to go where we have teams on the ground, if 35 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:23,480 only to to help and to show solidarity, but also to to 36 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,560 confirm that we're in it together and we will take the 37 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,560 risks together. But it we will talk about the 38 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,520 security environment in a moment. 39 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,880 But maybe you can just help us imagine what it was like coming 40 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,040 into the strip as you're, as you're entering for the first 41 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:43,240 time to reach the location of your assignment for the weeks 42 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:44,440 that you were going to spend there. 43 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:51,120 Yeah, so I had, I had spoken to several of my colleagues who who 44 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,880 warned me that it would be unlike anything I had ever 45 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,720 experienced. And despite having done this for 46 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,120 years and years, that I, I should be prepared that I may 47 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,000 have a reaction that I didn't expect. 48 00:03:05,640 --> 00:03:09,680 And, you know, I had spent over, over a year and four months at 49 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,960 that point watching video upon video of what the destruction 50 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,360 was like. But my colleagues were right. 51 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,360 First, we we drove through Rafa in order to arrive at our 52 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:28,320 destination and want, you know, when you look around you, it is 53 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,880 just dystopian. It's really hard to describe 54 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,920 because I did indeed have a reaction that I didn't expect. 55 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,320 It was a visceral reaction that I still carry with me because 56 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:45,800 it's really hard to believe that that we have allowed this to 57 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,960 happen, that that this is actually still happening. 58 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:56,040 As you drive through, you see building after building leveled, 59 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,760 it's very clear upon the first moments of entering that it's 60 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,160 systematic that it is an annihilation. 61 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,960 And I had worked in, you know, places that were affected by 62 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,200 natural disasters, for example. But what really struck me was 63 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:16,279 this was a man made annihilation. 64 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,880 And we all know Rafa because that was the place initially 65 00:04:20,959 --> 00:04:24,160 that people were told to go when they were evacuated from 66 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,160 different locations, especially in the north. 67 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:32,080 And so is that the way it was all along as you reached Der Al 68 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:36,520 Bala where you were based? What we noticed was that as you 69 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:40,320 start to get closer to Der Al Bala, it's a little bit, you see 70 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:45,760 a little bit more signs of life, but still, you know, destruction 71 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,640 all around you and very few buildings that are still 72 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,040 standing. And this was in what was 73 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:57,120 so-called the safest area. And the destruction and the 74 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:03,440 destruction in the North is actually even more, you know, 75 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,080 stark than the destruction that we witnessed in Rafa. 76 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:12,560 So it's very clear that you know, the the area that people 77 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,960 that that is even livable is ever shrinking even the area 78 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,280 that we were in. And so your role there then when 79 00:05:20,280 --> 00:05:25,160 you when you got to this field hospital was medical activity 80 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,040 manager, what kinds of things were were we treating there? 81 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:31,120 So I I worked in a field hospital. 82 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:37,400 It's a trauma surgical hospital. We treated patients of all ages 83 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,680 who were affected by surgical trauma. 84 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:44,600 So that meant burns, that meant injuries from airstrikes, 85 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:48,800 fractures and gunshot wounds as well. 86 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:54,800 And then we also saw infected wounds, infected, you know, open 87 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:56,720 fractures that had been infected as well. 88 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:02,680 So the vast majority of patients that we saw, even though this 89 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,360 wasn't a pediatric hospital, it really struck me as a 90 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,960 pediatrician that the vast majority of patients we were 91 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:10,800 seeing were actually women and children. 92 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:18,560 And it was just another example of how this is affecting the 93 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,320 community in a way that is unspeakable. 94 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,920 When people have catastrophic trauma injuries or burns that 95 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,800 normally you would be in hospital for quite a long time, 96 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:35,400 sometimes months post op care and infection control and all of 97 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:39,200 these things. And so at what point do you 98 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:43,080 discharge people and what are they being discharged into, 99 00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:48,960 knowing that so many shelters are destroyed, there isn't clean 100 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,600 water for cleaning, so many medical supplies, even we've 101 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,760 heard that gauze was lacking, all the things were lacking. 102 00:06:55,760 --> 00:07:00,880 So what is the environment of a patient who's actually has to 103 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:02,800 leave the hospital because you need the space for other 104 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:04,080 patients? Exactly. 105 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:08,400 So I mean, I think that the first of all, we were treating 106 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:13,440 burns in a field hospital, which is, you know, as as you referred 107 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,000 to the infection prevention and control practices, that's 108 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,080 something that is far less than ideal. 109 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,760 And in a situation where there is scarce nutritional sources 110 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:29,000 available for the patients where the they're at higher risk for 111 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,320 infection. So while we were treating them 112 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,680 in in the field hospital or in Nasser hospital where some of 113 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:41,200 our teams are also treating burns, we had limited ability to 114 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:45,160 even provide pain control for painful dressing changes. 115 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,600 We had limited ability to limited supplies that we had to 116 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:54,880 worry about. You know, if we if the siege or 117 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,280 blockade on supplies continues, will we even have enough 118 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,440 supplies to, to treat our patients? 119 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:05,120 And when we discharge them, they're being discharged into 120 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:10,440 crowded, unsanitary conditions where, you know, we ended up 121 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,960 keeping some, particularly some children longer because we were 122 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,680 worried that if we discharge them, that they would just, you 123 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:22,360 know, get further infection or be further at risk when we 124 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,440 discharge them into, you know, a tent with squalid conditions. 125 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,640 You know, and we were only able to reach the patients who are 126 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:34,360 able to reach us, you know, and there are patients who I'm sure 127 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,280 did not. We're not able to reach us 128 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:42,679 because of the lack of security and because of bombardment and 129 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,640 forced displacement that was just made it impossible for for 130 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,280 probably the most vulnerable patients to move. 131 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,320 Yeah, so you've got people trying to leave places where 132 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,720 they're sheltering in whatever shelter they have, whether it's 133 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:01,240 a tent or a crumbled building remnants, and they have to go 134 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,480 through what to then reach the hospital. 135 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,440 What are some of the obstacles before they actually find their 136 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,600 way to medical treatment? So as an example, one of the 137 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:16,160 patients that we had who was from Gevalia camp in the north, 138 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:21,760 she was a woman who was around 30 years old and has three Todd, 139 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,320 you know, toddler or younger children. 140 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:31,840 She came on a tuk tuk with an open fracture and and just 141 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,680 severe injuries to be able to get to us. 142 00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:40,560 But she describes her journey coming to our hospital and it 143 00:09:40,560 --> 00:09:44,320 took, it took over a day for her to travel this very small 144 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:51,280 distance with those injuries. And she while she was on route, 145 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,400 she had to pass through evacuation zones that were under 146 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,240 bombardment. And then they had to stop and 147 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:01,600 shelter to try to avoid the areas that were under evacuation 148 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,440 order. There is no way to avoid those 149 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,440 areas when you're trying to come to our hospital because there's 150 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,960 so much of the strip at this point. 151 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,120 Around 70% of the Strip is under evacuation order. 152 00:10:13,560 --> 00:10:18,240 So to move around is always risking your life no matter 153 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,440 what. And she had to make this 154 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,480 horrifying decision of leaving her toddler children to seek 155 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,160 care. And she has not seen them in a 156 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:33,000 month and a half because for them to reach our hospital again 157 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,280 under those conditions, she doesn't want them to risk their 158 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:40,200 lives. And she is not able to, you 159 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,240 know, we are not able to discharge her yet because her 160 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:48,160 injuries are so severe. So these are the kinds of life 161 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:52,000 or death decisions that people are making on a daily basis, 162 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:53,960 even when they're trying to seek care. 163 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,000 Yeah, it's, it's, it sounds absolutely harrowing. 164 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,920 And then also within the hospital, you're dealing with 165 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:07,800 such pressure, not only the medical urgency, understaffed, 166 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:12,080 under resourced, the whole, the whole environment is, is at a 167 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,600 certain point cut off from receiving all the medical 168 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,600 materials and staff that it would really need all the, the, 169 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:22,080 the, the crossing points shut at a certain point while you were 170 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:23,600 there. But you're also dealing with 171 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,840 just the, the heartache, I would imagine, of it. 172 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:31,480 You treated children who had lost one or both parents and 173 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,000 mothers who had lost their children. 174 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:39,040 The the mental health toll on those survivors must be 175 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:45,880 enormous. Yeah, I mean I it was it was 176 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:50,240 non-stop. Sorry, I need a second. 177 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:57,120 It was really nonstop that we had situations like this. 178 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:02,440 You know, I had a mom wake up from surgery frantically saying, 179 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,480 please help me, my, my children, I need to find them. 180 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,760 And, and they're at Al Aqsa Hospital. 181 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,080 Can you please find them? And, you know, so we contacted 182 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,080 Al Aqsa Hospital and we learned that every single member of her 183 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,520 family had been killed. That included her children who 184 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:27,040 were 5, 3:00 and 9:00. And we had to to tell her that 185 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:31,200 her husband and her children were no longer, you know, we're 186 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,240 no longer with us. They had been killed in the air 187 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,600 strike. And, you know, and then you move 188 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,720 on. And I, and for me, I, I think as 189 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:45,360 part of my role, I had to provide people with permission 190 00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:48,360 to be able to leave the hospital, if they needed to 191 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,920 leave the hospital for any reason and if to see to make 192 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,280 sure that it was safe. And I had to provide an uncanny 193 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,680 number of parents permission to go say their final goodbyes to 194 00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:04,520 their children, you know, to, to go attend the funeral or to go 195 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,000 to the morgue at one of the other hospitals to see them and 196 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:13,640 say goodbye to them. And, you know, and the children 197 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:19,240 who lost their parents, they're, you know, there's absolutely 198 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,320 nothing that you can do. And I, I say this as a pediatric 199 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:28,320 ICU doctor, there's nothing that you can do to replace the love 200 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,160 of parents. You can bring their aunts, you 201 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,200 can bring their uncles. There's absolutely nothing that 202 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,320 we can do for them. And that's heartbreaking. 203 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:42,800 And you know, sometimes we would see them, you know, we would see 204 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,800 the children who whose parents did survive. 205 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:53,360 For example, we had one child who had so much, so, so much 206 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,400 anxiety. He was screaming over and over 207 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,240 and over again that he just wanted to be with his mother. 208 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:03,560 And I, I was so worried that he, that has that we had lost his 209 00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:05,680 mother in the air strike that he was injured in. 210 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,760 But we, we learned that she actually had survived and she 211 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,680 was at another hospital with the sister who was in another ICU. 212 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:20,160 So I was able to bring that child's mother to our hospital. 213 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:24,080 And when, when he saw his mother, the say, you could just 214 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,120 see that he immediately calmed down. 215 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,200 There's no medication in the world that can do that. 216 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:35,840 And I had so many patients that I'm not able to to do that for 217 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,000 because they lost their parents and we couldn't bring them. 218 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,920 And that's the toll that these children are bearing. 219 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:49,200 The other factor that's been so heartbreaking has been just the 220 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,520 lack of food. We, we all know from our 221 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:57,320 experiences, people in a medical organization how much nutrition 222 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:04,160 is important for healing and even our own staff are, are now 223 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:08,480 down to 1 meal a day because during the time you were there, 224 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,720 the, the Israeli authorities imposed, you know, another very 225 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:16,080 severe, severe blockade. And so for such a long time 226 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,200 there was just nothing, nothing coming in and, and nothing to 227 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,000 eat. How does that affect patients 228 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:27,800 and their families? It's, you know, Avril, I think 229 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:33,160 that there's really, it's just another example of how there is 230 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,800 no aspect of life in Gaza that's not touched by the violence. 231 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:43,320 Absolutely none. And again, it was one of those 232 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:48,080 scenarios where like as a doctor or just as a human, this is the 233 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:54,240 first time that I've had to tell people or tell my patients that 234 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:58,640 I didn't have something that I knew was just a few miles away. 235 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:06,000 And that is torture. You know, to be able to, to, to 236 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,640 just have to tell a mother who is begging for just a little bit 237 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:15,360 more food for their children that they, we don't actually 238 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,440 have it. But it's not because we don't 239 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:19,960 have it. We actually do have it. 240 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,400 It's because it's being deliberately blocked from us. 241 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:30,480 And that that feeling of just, yeah, just having to to be the 242 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:36,200 intermediary person who has to say we don't have, we don't have 243 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,080 this thing that's right there is, is unconscionable. 244 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,840 It's the first time as a humanitarian I've had I've 245 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:46,680 experienced that. And for the mothers, you know, 246 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,320 again, who are mothers and fathers and children who are, 247 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:57,680 who are hungry, it's just another aspect of how of theirs, 248 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:02,320 of their suffering. And they are each day, you know, 249 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,119 trying to survive. And here they are injured from 250 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,560 an air strike or injured from burns and suffering and pain. 251 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,720 And then they have the pain of hunger on top of that. 252 00:17:13,319 --> 00:17:16,760 And, you know, at one point, yeah, while we were there, we 253 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,280 had one meal that we could offer to patients. 254 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,040 And for mothers and children, it was 1 portion, 1 portion that we 255 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,720 could give for because we just didn't have enough. 256 00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:32,240 The toll that that's taking on them, as in the long term, 257 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:37,920 there's no words for the layers of the trauma that they're 258 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,600 experiencing. I would imagine that it's it's 259 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:47,080 hard for a child to understand the the deliberateness of their, 260 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,800 the hunger that they feel that so much of the suffering is is 261 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:59,040 deliberate. Yeah, I, I think that, you know, 262 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,680 they don't, you know, maybe they don't understand it, but 263 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:04,440 certainly it will live with them. 264 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,040 The trauma will live with them and their parents understand it. 265 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:12,960 And the parents who, who are, you know, having to look at 266 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,120 their starving children and and having to answer to them when 267 00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:20,480 they ask for food. Now as a a long time 268 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:25,880 humanitarian, you've worked in many places where communities 269 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,760 are under attack, but also health care, hospitals, 270 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,040 ambulances, clinics are attacked. 271 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:37,360 We in MSF in Doctors Without Borders, we've seen it in in 272 00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:40,640 Ukraine, we've seen it in Sudan and Democratic Republic of 273 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:45,240 Congo, South Sudan. We have a well Syria, we had a 274 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,160 lot of that, even Afghanistan and Yemen. 275 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:53,560 What, what makes Gaza different in your experience, as far as 276 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:54,880 that goes? Yeah. 277 00:18:55,120 --> 00:19:01,160 And in terms of that, I think it's the incessant and 278 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,120 deliberate and systematic attacks. 279 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,760 I yeah, you're right that we have worked in other places 280 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,960 where it's where it has also been deliberate, but it was 281 00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:12,360 systematic. I mean, there's a systematic 282 00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:15,120 destruction of the healthcare system in Gaza. 283 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:21,920 So the care that we are able to provide is subpar because there 284 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,720 are no fully functioning hospitals left in Gaza. 285 00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:31,800 That systematic nature and the fact that we have had to reduce 286 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:36,000 our activities in the, you know, 2 hospitals were bombed while I 287 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:41,440 was there, and we've had to reduce our activities when the 288 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,040 community and the people need more care. 289 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:49,080 And so the fact that we're being pushed and pushed and pushed and 290 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,960 the community is being pushed and pushed again, that they're 291 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,120 not able to seek care, even hospitals are not safe. 292 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,200 That is unique. The systematic nature of it is 293 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,960 unique. And it, it, it's really, I, I, I 294 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:10,720 worry that it's really changing the world forever in a way that, 295 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,520 you know. If we don't, if we don't see 296 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:20,520 that people are respecting the safety of hospitals, where do we 297 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:26,000 go from here? Listening to all of this, and of 298 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,200 course for those of us who've been following what's happened 299 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,960 since the horrors of October 7th, all this destruction, all 300 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:38,520 this suffering, all the killing it, it's so dark. 301 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,960 I would imagine now that you're back in the safety of of the US, 302 00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:47,480 you're among your people, your loved ones, you're processing. 303 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:53,080 Is there is there any image or moment that you conjure that 304 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:57,000 gives you some sense of lightness amidst all the 305 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,200 darkness, that gives you some sense of hope? 306 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:08,800 It's hard, you know, I would say that and I don't, you know, I 307 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:13,040 think I'm trying not to center my own experience, but I do want 308 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,520 to share this that, you know, although I have worked in a lot 309 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:21,240 of places where I have been around bombardment and and armed 310 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:30,040 conflict, this is the first time that I'm coming back and I'm 311 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:36,280 feeling viscerally whenever a plane or a helicopter comes by, 312 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,000 you know, this like visceral reaction. 313 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:45,040 And it's hard not to think of the children who are there who 314 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,920 are internalizing this trauma and who are not able to have 315 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,120 that breath of fresh air and who don't have the privilege of 316 00:21:52,120 --> 00:22:00,320 coming back here to, to safety. So I was in, I did have a lot of 317 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,040 moment. I still have a lot of moments of 318 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,760 despair because it's hard to, it's hard to reckon with these 319 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:13,560 realities being coexisting. I take hope in the fact that the 320 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:19,640 Palestinian colleagues that I worked with are amongst the most 321 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:26,960 compassionate and, yeah, just amazing people that I worked 322 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:32,400 with, I've ever worked with. And I think that who am I to 323 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:37,600 have any despair if they come to work every day and provide care 324 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:43,000 so beautifully, so kindly, so compassionately, and that they 325 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,520 still have some hope. So if they have hope, who are we 326 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,760 not to have hope? Because they're, you know, 327 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:50,560 they're the ones who are living it. 328 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:55,960 What they really want is just for this to stop, and then we 329 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,000 can take their hope and help them to rebuild. 330 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,360 And you know, yeah. And that will take all of our 331 00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:07,640 energies as well. AXA, thank you so much. 332 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,840 I, I know it's not easy to be asked to, to, to describe what 333 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,360 you went through, but I know that you, you felt so strongly 334 00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:18,680 that you wanted to do it. So I, I appreciate that you took 335 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:19,600 the time. Thank you. 336 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,000 For more information about Gaza, you can check out stories that 337 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,240 we have on our website, doctorswithoutborders.org. 338 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,280 And also check out the notes for this episode to find other ways 339 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,240 to connect with MSF Mitzes Alfronzier on social media. 340 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,800 This is Humanitarian Lens, a podcast of Doctors Without 341 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,680 Borders USA. I'm Avril Benoit, till next 342 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:41,920 time.