1 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:17,720 Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll Podcast. 2 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,800 My name is Ryan and joining me today is Nick of Mammoth 3 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:22,520 Miniatures. How are you doing this morning? 4 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:24,240 I'm good, thanks. How are you? 5 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,000 Just wonderful. I say morning, but it's my 6 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,560 morning. But you are not quite where I'm 7 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,720 at in the world. No, we're it's 6:00 in the 8 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,600 afternoon here, but it's it's nice, which is rare for here, 9 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,360 which is quite good. Yeah, Yeah. 10 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:41,640 It's only it's 10:00 in the morning here in sunny 11 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,720 California. But we have found because I work 12 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,800 night shift, so my mornings are my evenings. 13 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,120 So they're your evenings. So it's actually easier to 14 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,920 interview people over where you are than it is over here because 15 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,200 10:00 on a not a Saturday, usually a Monday or Tuesday is a 16 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,600 little bit different for people, but time is neither here nor 17 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:03,640 there. Nick of Mammoth Miniatures For 18 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,560 those that might not be aware of who you are or what you do, who? 19 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,040 Who the heck is Who the heck is Nick of Mammoth Miniatures? 20 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:13,800 Yeah, yeah. Who am I? 21 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:19,200 So I, I am the, yeah, I'd say Nick of Mammoth Miniatures. 22 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:20,760 I am Mammoth Miniatures. It's just me. 23 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,920 So I'm, I'm the guy who does all the mammoth miniatures stuff. 24 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:29,920 So I, I sculpt figures and do the casting and write and 25 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,480 publish all the games that we create as well. 26 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,080 So things like Planet 28 and Sundering Floods, all our Super 27 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,600 Tiny Games, Brutal Quest, all of those kind of titles. 28 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:41,760 And then I also do a bunch of casting for a bunch of other 29 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:46,200 artists and sculptors across the world via Mammoth Miniatures as 30 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,240 well. So yeah, Mammoth Miniatures and 31 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,600 Nick of Mammoth Miniatures are kind of the same thing really. 32 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:54,600 It's just mammoth isn't on the birth certificate. 33 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:56,040 It's just you. Yeah. 34 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,040 So I actually, I, I think it was maybe like two or three days 35 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,840 ago, I got some of your little guys here in the mail. 36 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,840 I got a stack. I wanted your terrade because 37 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,040 these guys, these guys are incredible. 38 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,360 The guy was blowing it out, but it's the little head guys. 39 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:17,040 Some of your these bitch here. And then it was me and then I 40 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:22,440 got a stack of all of these the space guys, so I could do do a 41 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,880 whole thing. So literally just got those in 42 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,280 the mail along with these wonderful cards that you send 43 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:30,000 out. Again, cameras blowing it out. 44 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,680 But but yeah, love your manicures have stacks and stacks 45 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,880 of them. And and obviously we talked 46 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,080 about before stream have like a bunch of the games as well. 47 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:45,720 So big fan of super super tiny giant battles. 48 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:46,960 We talked about before stream started. 49 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:48,200 It's a, it's a Kickstarter, right? 50 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,000 Backed. I think you did it. 51 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:51,960 Was that a 2020 thing that you put out? 52 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,000 Oh God. It's like Zenquest one or 53 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,400 something. Like that or two mid like moving 54 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:03,560 house when I did it, which if like my one piece of advice was 55 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:05,360 someone running a Kickstarter who's don't move house in the 56 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,160 middle. If you want a nice easy life, 57 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,800 don't do that. So it must have been about 2020 58 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:13,800 ish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 59 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:16,480 Because that seems like forever ago now. 60 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:18,200 And then I look at it and go, actually, that wasn't that long. 61 00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:22,280 And yeah, so we're saying just before stream, I did that 62 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,200 Kickstarter. And then I lost all the 63 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:26,920 information for. I lost all the files, all the 64 00:03:26,920 --> 00:03:29,960 artwork, because everything was stored on my laptop and that 65 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:34,680 laptop exploded, just absolutely killed itself. 66 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,480 So I just didn't have all that information for ages until I was 67 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,160 going through my inbox the other day and found where I'd emailed 68 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,160 it to myself as a backup and just apparently never checked 69 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:46,480 that. So I was able to republish that 70 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,760 recently, which was nice because I really like that little 71 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:51,480 system. I think it's really, really fun. 72 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,920 Yeah, no, they're great and you have a whole. 73 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,480 A lost game. You have a whole line of the 74 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,640 Super tiniest too. We got quite a bit of the Super 75 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,320 tiny situations here. Yeah, yeah. 76 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:11,120 So OK, so my brain is, is breaking and I'm I'm piercing in 77 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:12,320 three different directions right now. 78 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:13,600 So like we talked about three things. 79 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,839 One is you, you make miniatures, 1 is that you write games and 80 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,640 three is that you also mold miniatures for other people as 81 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:21,519 well. So why don't we start with 82 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,160 miniatures? How did you get first of all, I 83 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,400 guess into the miniature scene? And then when did you start 84 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:30,800 actually deciding to mold and and and cast your own 85 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,720 miniatures? Yeah, so I got in. 86 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,400 I got, I got into like miniatures and miniature gaming 87 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,240 via a part work magazine in the UK that I don't know if you had 88 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,960 in the US, which was Battle Games in Middle Earth. 89 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,760 And it was a, it was a magazine Games Workshop brought out to 90 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,840 tie into the Lord of the Rings movies when they brought out the 91 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:54,200 Middle Earth range. And it was like the the Age of 92 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,400 Sigmar ones they're doing now where you've got miniatures 93 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,880 every two weeks or something with the magazine. 94 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,080 But that came out. I was like 7 years old and there 95 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,560 was this advert on TV and I was really into Lord of the Rings 96 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,520 and Oh my God, you can have the armies from Lord of the Rings as 97 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:11,120 toy soldiers. And so that's amazing. 98 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,600 I want that. And then, yeah, just ever since 99 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:16,600 then. And then I realized like very 100 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:18,760 quickly, you realize there's a shop in city center that is 101 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,120 dedicated to that stuff. And they've got it all there. 102 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,440 And they've also got like robots and tanks and Dragons and stuff. 103 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,640 And it, it quickly spiraled out of control. 104 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,760 But then I've also always been interested in art. 105 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,840 So my dad always taught me to draw and paint sort of from a 106 00:05:38,840 --> 00:05:42,360 traditional art standpoint. I've always liked making things, 107 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:43,680 which is how I ended up going to sculpture. 108 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,680 So the two kind of miniatures just became a really interesting 109 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,240 kind of Ave. for creativity that was separate to all the other 110 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,320 avenues for creativity. Which is why in like 20 odd 111 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,080 years of doing miniatures, I've never managed to finish an army 112 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,560 or really anything more than the squad, because you get about 10 113 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,720 minutes in and go, yeah, it's time to start hacking these 114 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,080 apart and keep bashing them and doing something weird with them. 115 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,080 So yeah, it's sort of spiral from there really. 116 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:16,760 I just, I enjoyed miniatures as a creative output that was sort 117 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,560 of completely my own and had its own rules, but where there was 118 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,200 no sort of going wrong with it, like withdrawing, you can go 119 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,920 wrong and it can look bad. I mean, the miniature can look 120 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,400 bad, but no one can tell you it's wrong. 121 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,560 There wasn't. There wasn't so much of A like 122 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,040 correct way to go about it. When I was getting into it, it 123 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,240 was just like you had it. We weren't really talking about 124 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,520 it on the Internet as much or I wasn't as a 7 year old. 125 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,000 So it was just like this thing that me and my friends all did 126 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,520 and we were all just as bad at it as each other. 127 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,240 So it was like it's own weird little niche we had and I just 128 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,880 kind of never stopped really. So you're, so you were, you were 129 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:55,840 very young when you got in administers hobby then. 130 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,360 Yeah, it really did coincide perfectly with Lord of the 131 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,720 Rings. Came out, I went to see that, 132 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,000 instantly fell in love with Lord of the Rings. 133 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,880 And then there was a game and figures and everything and I 134 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:12,120 liked making stuff. Like I was always like making 135 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,160 things out of like cardboard and foam and sellotape. 136 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:19,600 So yeah, like it just LinkedIn with all the things I liked 137 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,280 doing as a kid. Like I'm going to make a very 138 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,960 British reference, but there was a thing, there's a there was a 139 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:30,400 program on TV in Britain called Blue Peter, which was a really 140 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:35,360 sort of AI guess, like a sort of kids educational entertainment 141 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,800 program. But one of the famous segments 142 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,840 of it was teaching how to make the single Tracy Island from 143 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,680 Thunderbirds. Again, this is going down a 144 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,120 really deep like Brit rabbit hole, but I remember making that 145 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,120 as a kid as well. And it's basically it's war game 146 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,920 terrain is what it is. So it was, it was this very 147 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,240 nice, like children's TV presenter telling you, if you 148 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,120 you know, you get the hot chocolate tub and some paper 149 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,680 mache and some sawdust and glue it all together, you'll have 150 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,680 your missile silo. And that's what I was doing 151 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,360 anyway. So naturally, like going from 152 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,120 that to 40K bunkers to warm fantasy terrains, just like, 153 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,720 yeah, cool, this all works. It was like the perfect mixture 154 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,360 of things just to get me addicted to war games and 155 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,320 miniatures. Yeah, the timing just like 0 156 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:24,280 right in on you. But how did you go from doing 157 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:26,280 that stuff with your friends and, and all that other stuff 158 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,840 into having like a business turning it actually into this 159 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:34,080 thing that you do? So, so my background like 160 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:39,720 educationally and kind of I guess proper work wise is, is 161 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,559 fine art. So when I was when I went to 162 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,160 uni, I was studying sculpture and then I did my master's 163 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,080 degree in fine art with a focus on sculpture. 164 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,880 And while I was doing that, I was working in a tabletop game 165 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,200 shop at the time. So I was learning all the skills 166 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,440 you need to produce miniatures, things like anatomy and 167 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,760 sculpting, mold making, casting, etcetera. 168 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,840 And so I was, I was sort of wasn't doing it while I was 169 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,520 studying, but I had the skill set and I kind of, I liked the 170 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:09,360 idea of it. And at the time, I was becoming 171 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:14,080 aware of other people who were doing it themselves, people like 172 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,600 like Alex of Warp Miniatures. I think Warp Miniatures were 173 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:21,600 just starting out. And I knew of people like 174 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:31,360 Ramshackle Curtis and Andrew of what is now, I want to say 175 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,040 Meridian miniatures. I think it's Meridian Andrew 176 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:35,360 May. Who does a lot of the heck of 177 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:37,320 the Kickstarters and stuff? Yeah, yeah. 178 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,440 Yeah, so at the time, just as I was starting uni, he produced a 179 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,480 range of like steampunk soldiers and he produced a game to go 180 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,560 with them, which was called Steam and Ether. 181 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,320 And I think I'm the only person who has like a printed copy of 182 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:55,320 it somewhere behind me. But I remember seeing his his 183 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:57,960 thread on a forum somewhere about this. 184 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,360 And I'll say, well, you can just, you can just do that. 185 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,320 You can just make a game. Like no one can tell you not to 186 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:04,640 do that. That was amazing to me. 187 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,840 And seeing all these people like that first wave of like big 188 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:13,800 Kickstarters of people like doing their own thing was really 189 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:15,360 interesting. And I'm working in a tabletop 190 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:17,000 game shop to pay my way through uni. 191 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:19,440 Was seeing all this new stuff come out and playing all these 192 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,040 games. And yeah, just started started 193 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:25,960 putting those skills to use in my own time, sculpting figures. 194 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,960 I think I started with 15 millimeter stuff, which I got 195 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:32,880 some cast and they never really went anywhere. 196 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,840 And it became a business pretty much just as a result of being 197 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:43,000 of the pandemic. So it was just, I just finished 198 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:48,360 my master's about a week before we went into lockdown here and 199 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,600 my partner and I were living in a very small attic flat in 200 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,400 Croydon, which is a sort of a people from London say it's not 201 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:56,760 London. People from Croydon say is 202 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:58,160 London. It's a whole thing. 203 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,320 But it's, you know, it's, it's like a sort of regional town 204 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,480 bolted onto the side of London. So I really have nothing to do. 205 00:11:06,680 --> 00:11:11,040 So I kind of just started doing that full time and started 206 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,680 writing games at the same time as well because again, what else 207 00:11:14,680 --> 00:11:16,880 do you do? I had a Commission at the time 208 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,240 to build model ships for a cruise line, and when that 209 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,560 finished, I kind of ran out of a ran out of things to keep me 210 00:11:23,560 --> 00:11:26,280 occupied in my flat. Umm. 211 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,240 So I just moved on from doing that to sculpting figures to 212 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,440 yeah, yeah, carry on. Really. 213 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,440 Yeah, no, COVID is such a weird thing. 214 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:40,920 I mean, the the worst of it, obviously we're going to be 215 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:42,160 dealing with it's it's endemic at this point. 216 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:43,320 We're going to be dealing with it forever. 217 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,000 But the number of things that kind of shut down because of 218 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,600 COVID, but also on the creative side, the number of things that 219 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,720 kind of bloomed from it. Like Kickstarter had this yeah, 220 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,320 almost golden age after COVID because everyone was like, I 221 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,000 finally have time to do this thing that has been stuck in my 222 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,960 brain and, and make it and, and so much stuff came out after it. 223 00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:02,960 So it's really interesting to see this kind of like, I don't 224 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,000 know, interesting in a kind of sad way, but like there's like 225 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,840 death and birth of so many things between that like 2 226 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:11,600 years, it just disappeared for all of us. 227 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:17,000 But, but, but yeah, to see that like basically you have the time 228 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,160 and and it just became, it grew from there afterwards. 229 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,200 Did you start? Directly onto a website or were 230 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,600 you, were you doing it more locally or how did you actually 231 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:27,480 get up and running? Yeah. 232 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,040 Good question. I think so initially because 233 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,800 like from working in a game shop, you gather quite a lot of 234 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,160 you, you get quite a bits box, you gather quite a lot of kits 235 00:12:38,680 --> 00:12:40,880 and I'd always liked the kind of Inquisitor 28 scene. 236 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,120 So I was really into that kind of scene and posted a bit within 237 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,000 that community. So I had a small following on 238 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,200 Instagram of people who sort of liked the things I made. 239 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:51,960 So I started, I think I didn't start with games, I started with 240 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:56,480 like pewter pin badges and stuff like that because I had a studio 241 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,040 at the time. Luckily I was given a studio at 242 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,240 the end of my masters. I couldn't use it for a year 243 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,880 because lockdown, but I had space to do stuff. 244 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,120 So I had a small stock of things I'd made and I just started 245 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,600 selling those. And I think I built a website 246 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,160 with the intention that I would probably shut it down in like 2 247 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:17,400 weeks after I'd finished selling the things. 248 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,720 And I just kept making things and the website is still going. 249 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,520 So yeah, I think the first couple of things I just did 250 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,680 through Instagram and then I sort of enough people wanted 251 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:32,320 stuff that it seemed worth just making it cheap free website and 252 00:13:32,680 --> 00:13:34,640 yeah. And here we are. 253 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:36,320 And then how did Mammoth miniatures? 254 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,120 How did you come up with Because my issue with everything I do 255 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,200 ever is naming stuff. I there's even games that I've 256 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,920 like just quit playing because I couldn't come up with a cool 257 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:46,920 enough name or a name that fit a character. 258 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:48,000 I was like, all right, then I'm done. 259 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,160 So, you know, naming is, is hard for me. 260 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:55,320 How did Mammoth Adventures come? I know I had different names for 261 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:57,680 it at first, but Mammoth Miniatures is named because the 262 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:03,160 village I grew up in, there is a disused gravel pit that's been 263 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:07,480 turned into a nature reserve. And when I was a kid, they found 264 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:12,160 mammoth skeletons and sort of Ice Age mammal skeletons there. 265 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,240 So on the hill in this random village in Leicestershire, there 266 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,800 is a giant sculpture made of concrete of a mammoth. 267 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,800 So I always grew up the street over from what was the Mammoth 268 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,480 Lake. And so it was just like a 269 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,440 landmark in my childhood that you would tell people you were 270 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,280 going to the mammoth or you'll meet people near the mammoth or 271 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,880 like stuff like that. So referring to the mammoth was 272 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,880 just something I did in my daily life. 273 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,640 So yeah, it was it was more just a reference to to where I grew 274 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:44,720 up really. And also it's, you know, it's 275 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:46,560 nice and alliterative. It's murmur, murmur. 276 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:48,840 And it's a big thing and a small thing. 277 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:53,280 And so that kind of works. And I had to resist the 278 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:58,440 temptation to do color animal thing like black dragon or red 279 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,760 goblin or something like that. Like I think I had a list of 280 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:03,640 those at 1st and I was like, I'll be one of these. 281 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,440 And I looked at everyone else went I'm going to get lost in 282 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,360 the the color thing names if I do that. 283 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,920 Yeah, absolutely. And you said now that you're now 284 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,400 you're selling other people's molds as well, like when did or 285 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,240 miniatures as well? Did that just kind of also kind 286 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:20,920 of happen organically? You're like, oh that's cool 287 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,600 thing like I'll just do it. Or was that like a like, how did 288 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:27,640 that come? To me, it came out of it came 289 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,680 out of me. I really like the freedom that 290 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,560 online distribution has given to sculptors who work digitally. 291 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:40,520 So I really enjoy the fact that if you're a digital sculptor, 292 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,720 you can start a Patreon and you can sell your own work and 293 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,480 you're not beholden to anyone. You sort of you're controlling 294 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:49,200 your own craft and producing your own stuff. 295 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:53,360 I like that idea, but for traditional sculptors who work 296 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,560 by hand, there isn't necessarily that option. 297 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,760 You can't do that without the means of production. 298 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:05,040 Without making it sound too Marxist, you need stuff, you 299 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,800 need a space, you need resin, you need silicon, you need to 300 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,480 know how to do it, you need time. 301 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,760 And so I thought it'd be nice to just have a platform to 302 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,320 essentially just provide a way for sculptors to make some money 303 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,520 from their work. So the way I run it is like a 304 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,560 publishing service where they'll send me their miniatures, I'll 305 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,600 make a mold, and then every sale of their figures, I'll send them 306 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,640 65% of the profit from every single figure they sell. 307 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:33,680 That's their take, their royalty from that. 308 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,600 So I've got some to cover the material cost and the production 309 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:38,640 cost. But the idea is that that way, 310 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,440 rather than just paying them a couple of £100 for the sculpt 311 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,320 and then keeping it in perpetuity, they're actually 312 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,920 able to maintain, you know, I'm not going to say income from it 313 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,440 because we're not selling anything in such huge volume 314 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,280 that you can make a living from it. 315 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,520 Please, no one should ever come to me and think this is going to 316 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:58,920 be their lifeline out of poverty. 317 00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:04,200 But it's, you know, it's, it's some money at occasional 318 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,079 intervals. And the hope is, and I think has 319 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:11,560 happened over the period that I'll keep your miniatures in 320 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,720 production, you'll earn more that way than you would by just 321 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,400 selling the sculpt. Because a miniature sculpt for a 322 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:23,720 28mm figure between 50 and 400 LB tends to be the market rate. 323 00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:27,640 A bit more if you're much, much more famous, a bit less if 324 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,240 you're not. But then if you look at, you 325 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,400 know, the miniature market can be really unpredictable. 326 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,520 Some things will just get really popular inexplicably. 327 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,560 You look at something like the original, like Space Marine 328 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:41,160 sculpt, that Bob Naismith sculpt. 329 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,200 How many Space Marines have been sold in the entire run of 330 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,320 Stitch. Dominic is making Space Marines, 331 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,360 millions of them, possibly bordering on a billion pound of 332 00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:54,960 revenue. Does Bob Naismith get royalties 333 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,080 from all those? No, He probably did a little bit 334 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,240 1st and they probably went, hey, those Space Marines are doing 335 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,240 great, Bob, but he's not getting any more. 336 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,920 Yeah. So I and that that kind of, I 337 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,200 don't know, it felt like there was a gap in the market to 338 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,480 promote traditional sculpture, especially with the industry 339 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:19,120 moving more towards digital self distribution. 340 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:21,760 Having a platform to promote that kind of traditional 341 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,120 creative pathway just felt right to me and felt like the kind of 342 00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:28,680 thing that was worth trying out. Yeah, absolutely. 343 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,680 And then having, like you said, being able to sell as you go and 344 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,560 people getting residuals, royalties, whatever it's called 345 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:37,600 is it's, I'm sure it's nice to be like, Oh, there's a cool 346 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,600 little paycheck in the mail. That's great like that, you 347 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,240 know, that'll buy a thing. But so I'm, I'm newer to like 348 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:44,640 the skirmish and miniature scene. 349 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,200 Literally kind of what you said a little while ago, like I 350 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,920 looked at miniatures and was like, if I fall into this hole, 351 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,920 I'm not going to dig myself out. So I specifically said like 10 352 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:56,480 years ago, I'm not going to get to Warhammer. 353 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,160 And then I got to teach RPGs instead and spent the same 354 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:00,640 amount of money. So, you know, I kind of wish I 355 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:06,640 did, but there seems to be this cool, I guess trend back and and 356 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,880 tell me when I'm completely wrong here back into like metal 357 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,760 miniatures and this kind of thriving market of, like you 358 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:18,080 said, like a lot of creators making their own things and 359 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,000 doing things. People like guards packete, 360 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,440 people like you, you know, people like, you know, over at 361 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,200 ramshackle and stuff. Has there been have you seen 362 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,040 kind of I guess what's the word I'm looking for like a like a 363 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,040 resurgence of that? Is that kind of coming back 364 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:36,880 around or was that ever kind of? I think definitely like post 365 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,480 post COVID, so like miniature gaming just experienced such a 366 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,040 massive boom of new people coming into the hobby, which is 367 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,880 great. But it definitely feels like 368 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:52,480 there's there's a renaissance of people wanting the kind of 369 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,320 miniatures they remember from when they grew up. 370 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,840 Maybe. But I also think there's there's 371 00:19:57,120 --> 00:19:59,000 it's not necessarily all nostalgia driven. 372 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,040 I think it's just that people are perhaps beginning to 373 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:06,960 recognize the creativity and artistry that goes into the 374 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,800 production of miniatures. And part of that maybe is that 375 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,840 because miniature like distribution for independent 376 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,360 sculptors now means that the sculptor can be recognized more. 377 00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:18,760 Whereas before you were much more beholden to working with a 378 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,040 company, It was quite easy to think of miniatures as a thing 379 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,920 that were just made by a company like a toy. 380 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,000 You don't, you know, you buy a, you buy an action figure, you 381 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,360 don't necessarily think of the fact that someone's had to sit 382 00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:33,200 and sculpt it. Whereas now you can actually 383 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,520 just directly talk to the person making the thing you like. 384 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:44,360 It certainly feels like from a from AI hate business terms, but 385 00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:48,440 from a consumer perspective, people are sort of viewing 386 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,240 miniature makers more in a kind of sense of like artists or 387 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,400 creatives than just as part of a production line. 388 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,600 But also, yeah, I think the fact that a lot of the hobby or the 389 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,400 the community and the kind of surrounding conversation around 390 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,040 the hobby is much more online and there's a lot more venues to 391 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,040 talk about it now, means that that weird stuff can find its 392 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:14,160 audience. I was thinking of it a bit like 393 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,000 a bit like indie RPGs or like indie comics and stuff. 394 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,960 You know, you everyone likes a Spider Man comic, but not 395 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,880 everyone likes the weird comics. You go and find it like a Zine 396 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,280 fair. But if you go to enough Zine 397 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,000 fairs, no matter how weird your Zine or your comic is, you'll 398 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,720 find an audience for it. And I think the same thing's 399 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,080 happening here. It's just that that Zeemfair is 400 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,200 Instagram and Pinterest and weird little Facebook groups and 401 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,600 forums that have somehow survived like the last 20 years. 402 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:45,960 So yeah, it definitely feels like there's there's a 403 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,920 resurgence in interest in it and people there's, there's a 404 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:55,080 nostalgia relevant to it. But I think also maybe it's also 405 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,040 part of it is there's an accepted kind of industry 406 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,960 standard now of what a miniature is like. 407 00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:03,200 Plastic production has become much more available. 408 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,640 There's a lot of companies now making plastic miniatures. 409 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,280 Plastic miniatures have to be made in a certain way. 410 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:09,880 They have to have certain conventions. 411 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,760 And a lot of companies for a long time did copy the kind of 412 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,800 games, workshops, house style. And so maybe now that people are 413 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,120 able to move away from that, people are finding things that 414 00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:24,000 they wouldn't necessarily have known they liked because they 415 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,440 weren't able to see it. So yeah, I think maybe it's just 416 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,600 that the environment's much more much freer for creatives, and 417 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,760 the creativity is being recognized as a result. 418 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:34,720 Yeah, it's interesting. As I said, I'm I'm newer to the 419 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,680 scene, so the nostalgia part of it doesn't get it for me. 420 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,560 But I still when I see those older models, there's just so 421 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:42,520 much. I had this conversation with 422 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,240 someone recently. There's so much personality in 423 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:49,400 the sculpts and it feels much more, I don't know, interesting. 424 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,240 Like, you know, I when anytime I see especially Warhammer models, 425 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:58,000 because I see like before they had stomachs and after they had 426 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,240 stomachs in my mind is what it really feels like. 427 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,560 Because a lot of the old models feels like their chest is just 428 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,600 sitting on their belt And it gave this interesting 429 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,040 proportions and stuff. But you could see one sculpt and 430 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,120 see some another sculpt and know that it was by a different 431 00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:13,160 person and people bringing so much into what they were doing 432 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:14,800 and the way that they were painted because of that. 433 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,640 It's really, really neat to see that kind of from what kind of 434 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,640 feels like a little bit of an outsider perspective, because I 435 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:21,520 again, I didn't grow up with those sculpts. 436 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,280 It's it's really interesting looking at that and and my kind 437 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,440 of firm of reference for that is a lot of teach RBG stuff. 438 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:29,880 That's where a lot of my things go. 439 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:34,840 And when you look at the indie, the cool indie stuff and the 440 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,880 artists that are doing those kind of things versus like 5 E 441 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,840 that a lot of the art it you can't really tell who does it 442 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,440 differently. It all looks kind of like this 443 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,640 concept art. It all looks like very samey. 444 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,840 That seems like a little bit of a juxtaposition with with GW2 445 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,440 where a lot of the sculpts look like they're computer made to 446 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,200 specific standards and you can't really tell who does one versus 447 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,040 who does other versus, like you said, like leaning more into 448 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,400 feeling the artistry and feeling the personality of of the things 449 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,520 that people made. So it feels like at least in the 450 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:07,400 creative faces in general, there is a little bit of a like a 451 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:12,200 parallel in in that way versus with with mini and teach RPG. 452 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,680 I think yeah, definitely. I think like the, the recent, 453 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,080 some of the like more indie miniature stuff, I think 454 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,480 definitely parallels things like the OSR stuff in LPGS. 455 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,920 Because I know when I, when I got into writing games, I was 456 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,400 really inspired by the old school Renaissance stuff coming 457 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,520 out of the tabletop RPG scene. You know, I've seen the things 458 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:39,120 like like pamphlets or like like Z fold pamphlets. 459 00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:41,720 That's how I ended up with the Super tiny skirmish format 460 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:48,040 because I saw OSR publishers making six page pamphlet Zine 461 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,160 games and was like, that's really cool. 462 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,000 Why aren't miniature games like that? 463 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,840 Why does every miniature game have to be like a A4 coffee 464 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,720 table book? And I think a lot of people sort 465 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,800 of probably were seeing the same thing and thinking the same 466 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,080 thing and applying that logic to their own hobby. 467 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,840 And that's kind of how this whole movement has emerged kind 468 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:17,280 of from the hobby itself. Yeah, again, interesting 469 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:22,000 parallels because I, I maybe this might, I don't know if this 470 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,040 is going to land for some of the people in the crowd, but like, I 471 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,920 call the Ink 28 scene basically the mini's version of the OSR 472 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,400 without the baggage from the forge. 473 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,240 And anyone that gets that reference, like you're right 474 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,440 there with me. But yeah, both interesting, both 475 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:35,520 have a lot of cool stuff coming out. 476 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,800 Obviously, like, you know, we're we're we me and Hunter have been 477 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,040 moving a lot more in a skirmish and narrative skirmish, 478 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:41,720 especially for a while now, because it's just such an 479 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,560 interesting take on stuff. And we love systems and and the 480 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:45,880 scrimmage gives you that system stuff. 481 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:51,480 But when you started writing games, you said you were 482 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,040 inspired by the OSR and stuff. What what was actually the first 483 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:58,640 thing that you made and put out and what inspired you to to sit 484 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,440 down and actually write that very first one? 485 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:08,640 The the first game I wrote which no one will ever read was my 486 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,760 because I think everyone who tries to write a war game coming 487 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,760 from a warhammer like fan background you try and write 488 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,240 Warhammer. So the first game I wrote was a 489 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,240 completely unplayable sci-fi mass battle game mess. 490 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,080 And we, I wrote it with my brother-in-law and our friends 491 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,880 and we wrote it all up. We formatted it. 492 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,640 I did some artwork, we got some miniatures, we put it on the 493 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,640 table, completely unplayable, like absolute mess. 494 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,080 And then I just didn't write games for a while and went, OK, 495 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,480 I can't do that. And then it was, it wasn't 496 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,480 during lockdown. It was like the last week of my 497 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,920 masters. And I was, I couldn't sleep 498 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:52,000 because I needed to do my dissertation and I wasn't doing 499 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,040 my dissertation, but I was stressed about it enough that I 500 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,240 was losing sleep about it. So I did, you know, when you get 501 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,960 a piece of paper and you fold it to make a little 8 page booklet, 502 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,800 I did that and I just started writing a little game in it to 503 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,680 see if I could fit a game in that. 504 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,120 And that was what became Super Tiny Skirmish. 505 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:13,560 So that was the first game I wrote. 506 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:19,680 And I posted the handmade little booklet on Instagram with a page 507 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:24,480 like, yeah, that one, I posted that on Instagram and people 508 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:25,360 were like, oh, that's really cool. 509 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:27,040 I really like that. And so I did a cleaned up 510 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,280 version with actual drawings and stuff. 511 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,920 And I found that you could get those pamphlets. 512 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,760 No, I didn't find that actually. I was hand cutting and folding 513 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,160 each one at first for the first batch of like 100 of them. 514 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,480 And then I found out later that you can actually just order 515 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,560 pamphlets in bulk, which is way, way easier. 516 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,040 But yeah, it was it was sleep deprivation and not doing what I 517 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,480 was supposed to be doing. Basically, I just decided to see 518 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,920 if I could write a little miniature combat system with a 519 00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:03,800 set page limit. So I think it was the design 520 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,560 brief I gave myself was just, it has to fit within this page 521 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,120 count. And I liked that, like working 522 00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:12,280 up against the limitation. So naturally that kind of just, 523 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,080 yeah, just came about. And then from there, like that, 524 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,360 people played it. And that was really weird to me. 525 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,600 Like people would send me pictures of their miniatures 526 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:25,600 playing the game that I'd written. 527 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,360 I was like, that's not right. You shouldn't play. 528 00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:29,040 You're not meant to actually play it. 529 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:34,560 That's just weird. And then like I said, at the 530 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,880 time, I was really into, I'm still, I'm really into the 531 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:41,120 Inquisitor 28 scene and I had all these kit bashed figures and 532 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,720 I really wanted to make a rule system that worked for them that 533 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:48,160 wasn't Inquisitor because I love Inquisitor as a concept. 534 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,520 I hate playing it. It's, it's not a bad game, it's 535 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,000 a really good game, but it's a pain to play without a load of 536 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,480 setup. And I started writing a version 537 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:03,120 of that and then that became another overloaded mess of a 538 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,240 system. And I wrote, I thought again, I 539 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,080 gave myself a limit. So I thought, OK, well, what 540 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,640 I'll do is I'll see if I can fit it on a piece of A4 paper. 541 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,480 And that was the first version of Planet 28, which I think is 542 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,760 still on my blog, like is a rough version, which is 543 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,680 completely different to the game that I then did of Planet 28. 544 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,560 But again, enough people looked at it and they played it and 545 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,440 they went, yeah, there's something here quite like this 546 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,040 for me to develop it. And then that, yeah, that came 547 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,720 perfectly at the right time to be stuck in my flat with nothing 548 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,360 to do. And again, it's that that 549 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,960 blending into the OSR scene. Kickstarter had a thing called 550 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:47,200 Zine Quest running and it was for scenes of games. 551 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,200 And so I thought, well, there's nothing in here that says it has 552 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,240 to be a role-playing game. It could be a miniature game. 553 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,240 I'll do that. Like it only needs like I think 554 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,120 this the I can't remember what the funding goal for it was, but 555 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,600 it wasn't much. It was like 100 lbs or something 556 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:06,680 similar for the 1st edition of Planet 28 and it funded and it 557 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,600 made more than that. And again, like people played 558 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,080 it, which was the really weird thing. 559 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,800 So it just went from there. Like people kept playing it. 560 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:19,440 So I kept writing more games and more expansions and see if I can 561 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:24,680 find the original Kickstarter and see what the the actual goal 562 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,360 was. Because it was. 563 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:33,440 The I found you and then I just got to click your name and then 564 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:41,080 the original planet 28332% funded the original goal just 565 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:42,720 says the total. I don't know if it says the 566 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:47,560 original goal, 0700 and 50 lbs was the original goal and it hit 567 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,200 about 2500 lbs with 250 backers. As a first project that's 568 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,040 fantastic. And this was back in had to be 569 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,560 like 2020-2021 for Z Quest One. That's awesome. 570 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,720 Yeah, so it must have been 2020. Yeah. 571 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,760 Yeah, that was just this. It was really encouraging to 572 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,280 meet the funding and then have people actually enjoy it and 573 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,480 people review it and play it like people, people whose 574 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,120 content I had watched and people who like, whose opinion I 575 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:16,880 trusted was saying it wasn't bad. 576 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,800 That's, you know, that's about as high a praise as I could 577 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,040 expect, really. And yet, like, it just carried 578 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,160 on from there really. Like there was no reason to stop 579 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:31,520 doing it, so I didn't. There you go. 580 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,560 And then you had some, I mean I'm looking at your page here 581 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,120 and there's a number of other things that came out because you 582 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,160 put Brutal Quest out, which is this guy for his Inquest 3. 583 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,560 And then your numbers kept going for that because you made £5000 584 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:49,320 off that on 616 backers, almost doubled everything across the 585 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,640 board for that. And then Super Tiny Giant 586 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,960 Battles you had like over 300 backers for for that as well, 587 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,520 which I was one of them and made over 3000 lbs doing that. 588 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:03,520 So, so I guess after the first Planet 28 kind of took off, 589 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,240 you're just like, this works, let's keep doing it. 590 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,000 Yeah, yeah, pretty much. Like, and it, it was never like 591 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,400 the intention was never to make it a job. 592 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,680 Like I never thought this would be a situation where I'd be 593 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,760 like, I can make my living off doing this. 594 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,000 But it was just a case of like, well, people like the games and 595 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,040 I like making them, so I'll just keep doing it. 596 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:31,640 I like, and I'd be happy to do it regardless if people liked 597 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,240 them, I'd put them out one way or another, even if they weren't 598 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,480 financially viable. Like all the games I write, for 599 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,120 the most part, I put them up for free on War Games Vault because, 600 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:42,880 again, I want people to be able to play them. 601 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,960 So if you want the printed copies, sure, by all means buy 602 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:47,200 one. But if you just want to play it 603 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,200 and look at it, there's no obstacle to that. 604 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:51,440 You can just download it. That's fine. 605 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,480 Yeah, it was, it was really encouraging to sort of have 606 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,800 people actually like it, which is again, and I think again, 607 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,840 coming from like a fine art background, it was, it was very 608 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:11,280 strange to not instantly be met with critical feedback or like 609 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:16,920 negative critical feedback. Because if you, if you come from 610 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:21,120 like a fine art educational background, you're one of the 611 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,800 biggest things you learn is, is how to accept and filter 612 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:29,600 critical feedback. So I think I was, I was lucky 613 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,920 enough that if it had gone really badly and they've been 614 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,200 awful games, it wouldn't have, I'm saying this retroactively, 615 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,480 it might have, it wouldn't necessarily have instantly 616 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,360 broken me as a person, like I might have survived. 617 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,760 But to do something and not have someone instantly go, well, I'd 618 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,200 change this and this and this. And I think this could be better 619 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,280 to just have people go, yeah, it's pretty fun. 620 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,080 Was was a really weird experience. 621 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,640 And actually to have people want to give you money for things, 622 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,600 that's that's very different to the fine art world as well. 623 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,240 Actually get paid for the for the, for the creations that you 624 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:05,720 make in art. Yeah, that's insane. 625 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,679 So how did you go from the that initial draft of Planet 28 to to 626 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,920 this version, the Planet 28 second edition? 627 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,199 What kind of spurred that on to turn it from definitely not a 628 00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:22,360 Zine to a pretty beefy hardback? So from so the first edition of 629 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,760 Planet 28, the Zine version, people kept asking for two 630 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,320 things, which was solo rules because lockdown was still going 631 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:35,080 on, and vehicle rules. And so I did 2 expansion scenes 632 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,560 for that. One was Death on the Periphery 633 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:42,800 which was solo and Co-op rules. And the other one was Death 634 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,320 Machines which was an entirely vehicle based expansion for 635 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:47,800 building your own vehicles for the game. 636 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,639 And so we got to the point where Planet 28 was three books with a 637 00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:59,400 page count of like 60 odd pages. And I wanted to do more stuff 638 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,800 with it. But I thought it would be quite 639 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,320 nice if those three books were compiled because there were 640 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,200 things in the core book that needed changing. 641 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,840 Because again, it was, you know, it's my first game. 642 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,080 I wrote it and published it. The only person who proofread it 643 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,240 was my partner, and a lot of the spelling mistakes still stuck 644 00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:19,280 through. There were things that needed 645 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,360 altering, etcetera. So I thought, well, if I'm doing 646 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,080 that, why don't I just combine them into one bigger book and 647 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,200 we'll run a kick start for it and that will be a new addition 648 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:28,560 and fix some of the problems with it. 649 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,520 And yeah, so, so it was just that really it was just a 650 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,280 natural evolution of I've gathered some content for this 651 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,120 game. There's more stuff that could be 652 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:38,720 in it. Some things need fixing. 653 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:44,000 Let's just do a new book. And while we're doing it, let's 654 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,800 make it a nice book as well. And again, it was it was setting 655 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:49,440 myself another creative challenge as well. 656 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,320 I'm not, I'm not particularly like digitally minded person. 657 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,400 I'm not good with computer software. 658 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:02,840 So learning to like lay out a hardback book was like a fun 659 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,360 challenge for me. Not one I really want to repeat 660 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,200 if I can avoid it, but it was fun. 661 00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:14,720 And then that went on Kickstart as well, and once again, like 662 00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:18,800 that one hit over 14,000 lbs and nearly 900 backers. 663 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,640 Yeah, that was terrifying. That's that's like enough money 664 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:28,120 that if you, if you fuck it up, you feel like genuinely like 665 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:29,760 you've committed some sort of criminal act. 666 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,560 Yeah. And suddenly like again, coming 667 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,440 from like just finishing my master's, just having moved out 668 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,320 of London, not quite having found a job in a new city, and 669 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:45,960 then 14,000 lbs dumps into your bank account is a really weird 670 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:52,800 situation to find yourself in. Oh and yeah, the other thing as 671 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:54,240 well. If you do run a massive 672 00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:57,480 Kickstarter and get 1000 books delivered, don't get them 673 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,840 delivered to your house. It's a good lesson for anyone 674 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,680 there, especially if you live on a small residential St. in 675 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:10,720 England. In a semi in a yeah in a in like 676 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,960 a a line of houses. Yeah, because you will have to 677 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,480 unload them in the rain and they will take off your entire dining 678 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,080 room. Yeah, just the whole, just a big 679 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:24,280 chunk gone because I mean, how and how was it trying to, I 680 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,000 assume you were, were you distributing it all yourself? 681 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,880 Did you just not? I mean, because your goal was 682 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,800 very, it was like 3000 lbs, so like 1/5 of what it ended up 683 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,280 being. So when you were like, shit, I 684 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,000 had almost 900 books. I got a mail out. 685 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,440 Like I'm sure that felt cool and also horrifying at the same time 686 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,280 to be like, I have to get a post office like for 900 packages. 687 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:47,960 Yep, which was basically just me sat at my dining room table with 688 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:53,200 boxes handwriting labels for 900 Packers because for some reason 689 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,520 until like 2 weeks ago I didn't think to invest in a label 690 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,680 machine. So if you've received a delivery 691 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,200 from me prior to the last month or so, it would have been a 692 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:06,080 handwritten label. Yeah, my box that I'm not going 693 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,840 to show on stream definitely is handwritten, my name and address 694 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:10,920 right on the front of it, so yeah. 695 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,280 So yeah, it was just me boxing things and taking them to the 696 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,400 post office, which luckily was right on the corner of my 697 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,800 street. So I would do a batch of like 50 698 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,440 boxes, wheel them to the post office in a little pink trolley, 699 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,240 drop them off, they would process them, send me the 700 00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:32,520 receipt and then I would take the next 50. 701 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,160 And I did that for a couple of months. 702 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:39,520 Basically. I say did that's still how I do 703 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,040 it. Like that's that's just how it 704 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,040 has to be done. That works, Yeah. 705 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,480 And then it's everywhere. I mean, I was just in LA for for 706 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,800 Brain Dead and it stopped by LA War Games, which is like the 707 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,320 coolest fucking game shop in America. 708 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,640 And there was a whole Planet 28 section and a whole little in 709 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,640 cap of mammoth miniatures like right there in LA, which is 710 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,200 fantastic. Yeah, they put in a. 711 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,720 They got in touch. I got in touch with them on the 712 00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:06,560 exact same day that they were getting in touch with me. 713 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,000 It was a really weird thing because I saw that they were 714 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,240 stocking indie stuff and I thought, that's cool, I'll 715 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,360 message them. And then as I messaged them, 716 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,280 they were like, oh, we were just messaging you. 717 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,840 Oh good. So yeah, they've got some 718 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,240 mammoth miniature stock and they've like given it a full 719 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:23,720 display as well, which is amazing. 720 00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:28,760 And they've got so that hardback copy, Plant 28, the second 721 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:35,520 edition, they've got the last 6 copies because they placed their 722 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,880 order right like after those had run out and they said, oh, we 723 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,160 want 6 copies of Planet 20. And I thought, fuck, I don't 724 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,000 think I've got 6 copies. So I ran through my bookshelf 725 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,840 and like drawers and went, no, no, I have, I've got this one 726 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,680 here that I've saved for something and I've got this one 727 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:53,480 and this one like I managed to find 6 copies. 728 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,040 So those are the last copies of that around. 729 00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:01,760 I think Exalted Funeral have some in stock still because they 730 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,560 put in a huge order for some a long time ago. 731 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,280 And only recently put them on their website so they might 732 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,240 still have some but other than that I think those are the last 733 00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:12,760 few. They have they have a tendency 734 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:17,000 to tuck a box away in a backroom for for a rainy day of of more 735 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:22,040 than one project, so. I think in fairness to them, I 736 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:23,920 sent their order to the wrong address. 737 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,960 So they sent me an address for shipping and I sent it to their 738 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,280 like managing director or something. 739 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:36,720 So the poor people, like bless them, they just got a massively 740 00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:40,160 torn up box of books sent to completely the wrong place and 741 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,680 then had to go and find it. So I don't blame them for taking 742 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:43,680 a while to put it on the website. 743 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:48,240 That's that's entirely on me. Yeah, so sold out Planet 28, but 744 00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:51,760 you can still get Brutal Quest and death in the throne room on 745 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:53,080 Exalted Funeral. Yeah. 746 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:54,560 There we go. So LA war games. 747 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:55,760 We'll have the last handful then. 748 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:57,360 There you go. Yeah, I know. 749 00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,040 Someone bought 1 when I was there. 750 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,240 I was like, you know that the other one is on Kickstarter 751 00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:02,280 right now. He's like, I know, but I got to 752 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,080 get this one too. And speaking to that again, we 753 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,000 we already talked about Woody and now 2E and now we got the 754 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,160 final edition. This is what's currently on 755 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,440 Kickstarter right now. You've already surpassed the 756 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,400 well, this is an American, so I don't know what it is in pounds. 757 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:22,800 So you're close to getting to what was the the goal for or 758 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,760 what you did second edition at You're about 12,000 lbs. 759 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,160 We still got three weeks left in the campaign, which is crazy. 760 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:30,480 So yeah. Yeah. 761 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,800 So tell me, what is what is Planet 28 the final edition 762 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:40,240 compared to to 2E? So again, it's kind of it's 763 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,520 partly it was from that initial run of 1000 books. 764 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,400 They're gone. We sold out and I thought I kind 765 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,120 of thought well that's good, that's gone now. 766 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:51,840 That's probably the lifespan of that game. 767 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:56,320 And then in the intervening like 3 weeks, I think I had about 100 768 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,320 emails of people going I want to buy Planet 28 where is it and 769 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,880 say oh crap, I'm gone. So I thought well I'll, I'll do 770 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:05,720 a reprint. I got in touch with the printer 771 00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:09,240 who printed it and they can't print the hardback anymore at 772 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,800 the cost we were printing it at the. 773 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,760 So certain things like the end papers in it, they don't no 774 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,520 longer do or basically what I worked out is to get it 775 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,880 reprinted as it was at 2nd edition, an exact copy of that 776 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,480 book, it would need to double in price. 777 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,880 And I just thought that's not really I don't feel good about 778 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:30,960 that. I don't feel good about giving 779 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,080 the same product away for double the cost. 780 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,840 And the only reason people would have to pay that cost is just 781 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,440 that they didn't happen to have ordered it six months ago. 782 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:46,440 And then I'm not very like, uh, active in promoting the game. 783 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,400 But I do find when people talk about it and I have a little 784 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,600 document where if people have feedback or ideas, I'll just 785 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:54,320 note it down. I won't tell them I've done 786 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:55,800 that. They'll never know. 787 00:42:56,240 --> 00:42:57,920 But if they've got something they do, they're like, they've 788 00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,760 got a house rule and they've got something they think doesn't 789 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:01,480 work, I'll just make a note of it. 790 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:04,640 And so I've got this list of things that I thought just 791 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,920 needed, not necessarily changing, but just altering or 792 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,440 fixing or like little mechanics I think would be quite fun or 793 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,440 optional rules that could be added in just adapting it to the 794 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:17,600 way people have sort of been playing it really. 795 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,600 So I kind of thought of that. And then recently we did a 796 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,800 Kickstarter 4 in the Land of the Thundering Flood, which we did 797 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,240 as a soft back perfect bound book. 798 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:30,120 And I really like the format of that. 799 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,520 It's a really nice compromise between the scene and a proper 800 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,480 like hardback rulebook where it's it's a nice thing, but you 801 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,240 don't feel like it's impossible to actually play with and use. 802 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:42,760 And it's a really nice price point where you can sell it at 803 00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:46,080 an affordable price. And it's not, you know, it's not 804 00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,840 like a major investment where if you don't like the game, you 805 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,160 feel like you've been robbed. So I thought it would be nice to 806 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:56,240 bring Planet 28 in line and have something that sort of sits 807 00:43:56,240 --> 00:44:00,600 alongside that. And then I also thought, well, 808 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,720 it's been this is partly partly the reason for doing it was kind 809 00:44:04,720 --> 00:44:08,960 of an in joke at myself. I don't like the Warhammer 3 810 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:13,720 year release cycle. So Games Watch have updated the 811 00:44:13,720 --> 00:44:15,440 rules every three years. Yeah, now. 812 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,440 Insane to me. Drives me mad. 813 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:23,120 And I noticed that I'm thinking about updating the game three 814 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,560 years after the last edition and so I kind of thought, ah fuck. 815 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,520 Like I don't want to become everything I despise, become 816 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,880 what I hate. Well, actually, well, if I'm 817 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,120 redoing the game in a new format in paperback, I'll just make it 818 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:37,840 the nicest version of it it can be. 819 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,720 I'll fix the things that people have wanted fixing, I'll add in 820 00:44:40,720 --> 00:44:44,320 a few things that I like, and then we'll call it the final 821 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:48,160 edition and that will be it. Like we'll have that edition and 822 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,360 that can stay in print, that can stay in circulation. 823 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:56,480 It's kind of a more economically viable version of that game 824 00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,520 where if I run out of the print run that we do for the 825 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,720 Kickstarter, it's not impossible for me to just order another 826 00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:05,480 print from them and not have to take it to crowdfunding and just 827 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:09,480 keep it in circulation. And it's not such a huge 828 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,600 investment for people that they don't then feel like they can 829 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:13,600 buy the expansions or some scenes and stuff. 830 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:18,640 So it's kind of it's it's relaunching it as a a more long 831 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:20,960 term platform to keep developing the game. 832 00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:23,440 Because there's loads of stuff I've wanted to publish with 833 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:26,600 Planet 28, loads of expansions that I've got written and done 834 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,440 and done the illustrations for and everything and just not have 835 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:33,800 the time or chance to put them out in a way that I felt matched 836 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,960 the the grandeur of a hardback rule book. 837 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,520 Whereas now I think it would be nice to kind of get it to the 838 00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:41,880 point where planetary it can just constantly have new stuff 839 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,760 coming out and you can pick and choose what you want to engage 840 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,400 with. And it becomes more of a kind of 841 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:49,680 open source system in that regard. 842 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,520 So having the game be viable to keep in print was something that 843 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,760 kind of fed into that. And yeah, like also it's just, 844 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,960 it's nice to to do the stuff that goes into making it. 845 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:05,000 Like it's nice to do a new batch of artwork and reformat it and 846 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,680 filter through new fonts and see what goes where and just fiddle 847 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,760 with it and stuff like that. Like it's fun to make. 848 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,880 So it's a fun project. But there's also I've got a 849 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,800 vision in my head of, of a game that can just stay in print 850 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:20,480 forever and not need updating. And you can just it's your game 851 00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:22,560 that way. If you don't like something or 852 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:24,880 you want to house rule it, you can just put a sticker in it 853 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:26,680 that says we do it this way and that's fine. 854 00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:29,400 It's interesting. It's like an ending in the 855 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:30,400 beginning. It's like the last. 856 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,040 It's a final edition of the book, but it's like launching 857 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:34,920 all of the things that you want to do with it afterwards. 858 00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,720 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for those that haven't read 859 00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:41,560 Planet 28 because the system is great and the and the book is 860 00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:45,040 fantastic, what I guess what's the core mechanism Planet 28 861 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,320 that makes it similar and or different to what people might 862 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,120 have played with more with other skirmish games? 863 00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:54,040 Yeah, so I was, I was struggle with this because I don't think 864 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,840 of Planet 28 as a game that kind of has any like mix or like 865 00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,200 unique, like mechanical selling points. 866 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,360 Like some games have something where you go, yeah, that's 867 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:08,280 that's a really cool mechanic. Pro 28 doesn't necessarily have 868 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,680 those. It's designed to just be a 869 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,760 toolbox for you to play with the miniatures you want to play 870 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:16,560 with. If you're the kind of person 871 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,360 who, like me, has a collection of miniatures that don't 872 00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:21,960 necessarily fit within a neat profile. 873 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,800 So the core system is really simple. 874 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:30,040 It's AD 10 roll under system, so it's kind of a facsimile of 875 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,640 Inquisitors D100 system but reduced down to a kind of 876 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:38,120 quicker math. Basically weapon damage is done 877 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:42,240 via your standard like RPG polyhedral dice. 878 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,960 So you've got a nice spread of kind of options and damage 879 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:51,680 there, but everything in it is designed to give you the freedom 880 00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:53,280 to alter the mechanics as you see fit. 881 00:47:53,720 --> 00:47:57,680 So the core rules think consult my copy one SEC. 882 00:48:00,720 --> 00:48:04,920 The core rules I think only run to like page 20 odd or something 883 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,880 26 and then everything after that is entirely optional. 884 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,600 So the idea is that rather than shop around for a system where, 885 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:16,440 you know, I want a system where I can do solo wargaming, or I 886 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,320 want a system where I can have squads versus heroes, or I want 887 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:23,280 a system that can do big tank battles, but also have some role 888 00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:25,280 play elements. It's all in that book. 889 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:27,880 You just pick and choose which one you want any given time. 890 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:33,200 So the strength of it, I think, and I think that people enjoy is 891 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,560 the freedom to create your own characters and create your own 892 00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,680 units, your own weapons, your own vehicles. 893 00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:44,280 It's it's all in the the vision you come at it with. 894 00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:49,160 So it's a system that ostensibly it's a kind of sci-fi fantasy, 895 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,760 grim darky system. But if you wanted to play it as 896 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:56,680 a steampunk skirmish game or a high fantasy or Star Wars or 897 00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,880 something like that, it will work for that because all you 898 00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:02,040 need to do is take out the bits that don't. 899 00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,880 And the system doesn't fall apart as a result of that 900 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,920 because it's built to be completely modular. 901 00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:12,720 I call it a toolbox system. So it might not necessarily be 902 00:49:12,720 --> 00:49:17,920 your your go to system for every game, but you might find 903 00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,920 yourself thinking, man, I really want to run a, I want to run a 904 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,960 skirmish campaign with a game master and off table role play. 905 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:28,240 And then I want to have my characters in one session fight 906 00:49:28,240 --> 00:49:31,440 in the middle of a big battle. Well, it'll do all of that and 907 00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:33,280 you can take those bits out and you don't need to alter the 908 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:34,600 characters. You don't need to change 909 00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:36,280 anything. You just need to stack up 910 00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,120 everything that you want in that game and it'll do it. 911 00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,000 So that's the idea behind it basically. 912 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:49,200 Yeah, it feels very like it rides the line towards teach RPG 913 00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,560 like really heavily like more so than a lot of the scrimmage 914 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,680 games I've read, especially like, you know, and maybe 915 00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,560 because the first Warhammer I read was Warhammer Fantasy like 916 00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:02,120 RPG, which at the end of the day is like similar maths to the 917 00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:05,400 scrimmage game too. But having a roll under system 918 00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:09,040 in your thing, having the toolbox you can see and maybe 919 00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,000 it's there or not this like kind of OSR inspiration to a lot of 920 00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,680 the mechanics and stuff. Where because you can, like you 921 00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,360 said, you can do a lot of this stuff as just playing it as a 922 00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:20,040 RPG if you really want to, with the way the mechanics work and a 923 00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,680 lot of the stuff and. I think that's, again, I think 924 00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:28,520 part of that is I think I probably, I've played more role 925 00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:32,440 play sessions than I have kind of like dedicated war game 926 00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,200 sessions. I've played a lot of war games 927 00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:38,320 and miniature games, but my regular like weekly gaming is 928 00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:40,680 RPG games. We play a lot of like indie 929 00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,120 stuff and weird one shots and stuff. 930 00:50:44,240 --> 00:50:48,480 Umm And I always like when those intersect with miniature gaming. 931 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:53,320 And I always envied as someone who's like first love and main 932 00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,040 attraction is to miniature gaming. 933 00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,320 I always envied the kind of freedom that you have with 934 00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:02,360 role-playing games where someone will say, I want to run a pirate 935 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,480 game and they won't change the system they're using. 936 00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,520 They'll just put a new skin on it and go, we're calling this, 937 00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:10,400 we're calling magic wands blunderbusses. 938 00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:12,760 Now roll with it. It's fine. 939 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:18,480 You can fudge it so Planet 28, you don't necessarily fudge it, 940 00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:20,920 but you've got the freedom to just decide to reskin it at your 941 00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:25,080 will and change it. So the second edition added in 942 00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:27,800 things that allowed you to play it as a bigger war game as well. 943 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,440 So you can play with squads of units and tanks and heroes and 944 00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:34,800 you can almost get up to like Warhammer 40,000 scale games 945 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,520 with it. But if you want to, you can 946 00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:43,400 strip it right back and have a, yeah, like an RPG light Co-op 947 00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:45,800 game where you've all got your one guy and there's a game 948 00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:51,160 master controlling the scenario. Because that's, that's the kind 949 00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,960 of gaming I enjoy. And I enjoy the idea that you 950 00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,960 can spread from that to different things and carry on 951 00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,920 with the same characters and the same narrative as well. 952 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:06,840 Like being able to tell a story from a single solo game through 953 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,360 to a massive multiplayer battle without ever having to alter 954 00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:13,880 your stats or change system or anything like that seemed really 955 00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,760 fun to me. So doing that was sort of one of 956 00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,840 the goals really. Yeah, you know, there's in 957 00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,440 teacher BG's, you know, me and Hunter talk about this a lot. 958 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,520 There's a a bunch of different like genres, types, whatever you 959 00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:28,360 want to call it. And some of them are, you know, 960 00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,080 these like kind of capsule games where this system does this 961 00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,200 thing and and this is the adventure you're running. 962 00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,000 And maybe it's just this one time you do it or whatever. 963 00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:37,320 And then you have framework games is what I call them, where 964 00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,240 basically it gives you the tools to do whatever you want with it. 965 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:43,760 Some resolution mechanics, maybe that, but throw in whatever 966 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,160 setting you want. And Planet 28 really gives me 967 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,400 those kind of vibes where like you just said, you can just kind 968 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,760 of take this, this framework that you put in there, this 969 00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:53,760 toolbox of things pieced together and whatever you want 970 00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:55,880 and be able to roam with it, which is absolutely fantastic. 971 00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,520 And again, like really straddles that line between teach RPGs and 972 00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,600 and skirmish, but from the skirmish side first, which I 973 00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:04,040 really enjoy. I'm a systems guy. 974 00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:06,320 There's a lot of discourse and stuff and teach RPGs about 975 00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,520 systems and stuff. But as someone who really enjoys 976 00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:12,720 system and mechanics coming out kind of like a similar issue, 977 00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:15,720 but from the kind of narrative skirmish side versus like the 978 00:53:15,720 --> 00:53:18,520 Teach RPG side has really been scratching an itch. 979 00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:21,400 And Planet 28 is one of those ones that I got like a while ago 980 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:24,160 that has been really scratching the itch for a while because of 981 00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:26,120 the freedom it does provide to kind of do whatever you want and 982 00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,720 also lean into that Teach RPG side if that's where you kind of 983 00:53:29,720 --> 00:53:33,160 came from. So it's just, it's good game, 984 00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,160 buy the game, back the game, go to Kickstarter and back the 985 00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,360 game. So with the final edition, what 986 00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:40,280 what can people actually get? I have the Kickstarter page 987 00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,920 pulled up right here. So when they go back this what, 988 00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:44,640 what can you actually get on this Kickstarter? 989 00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:49,000 So the main the main cut of pledge level is obviously for 990 00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:54,800 the rule book, which is going to be a A5 soft back bound rule 991 00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:56,880 book. So nice spine. 992 00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:01,280 But if if you trying to think of like an industry standard, but 993 00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:05,400 like, think of like when you you buy like a graphic novel, that 994 00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:07,520 kind of soft back, soft cover, yeah. 995 00:54:07,720 --> 00:54:09,840 Perfect bound, yeah. Yeah, perfect bound. 996 00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:13,320 There we go. So you can get just the book, 997 00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:15,600 but there's also pledge levels for a couple of expansions. 998 00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:19,840 So and again, this is kind of things that I've wanted to do 999 00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:21,680 for a while, but also things people have asked for. 1000 00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:26,400 So the two expansions that we were included by default in the 1001 00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:31,640 kind of all in Pledge War World one, which is a setting guide. 1002 00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:34,600 So I like the idea that the book doesn't have a setting, but I'll 1003 00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:38,080 publish again, essentially source books which will have 1004 00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,000 scenarios and weapons and characters for a setting and 1005 00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:45,600 give you the information. So it's a it's the idea is it's 1006 00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:48,120 a planet where all your legal troubles can be resolved by 1007 00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:52,640 going to war with each other. So you you opt in to resolve 1008 00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:55,680 your conflict via war world. Isn't that what we're doing 1009 00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:56,800 right now? I feel like that's what's 1010 00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:57,880 happening in the world right now. 1011 00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:00,240 I feel like that's where we're. At just want to say quickly, I 1012 00:55:00,240 --> 00:55:04,120 have a real problem with that. I'll publish a game and it will 1013 00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:07,160 become suddenly very prescient very quickly. 1014 00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:10,800 Stop doing that. So when I did Planet 28. 1015 00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:15,720 When I did the solo expansion of Planet 28, the campaign that's 1016 00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:21,000 in that is about a world under quarantine because there's a 1017 00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:24,400 mutagenic virus breaking out. And then we went into lockdown. 1018 00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:28,360 And then when we did second edition, there was an expansion 1019 00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:31,640 for that about the galactic emperor dying, and then the 1020 00:55:31,720 --> 00:55:35,280 queen died like about a week later. 1021 00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,480 So I'm not saying I have these powers, but if I do, I'm not 1022 00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:43,760 using them responsibly. So yeah, the next one you make 1023 00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:48,120 is a game where everyone is happy and fed and and all the 1024 00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:50,840 richest people are guillotined and then we're good to go. 1025 00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,520 Yeah, so the other, but the other expansion that's included 1026 00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:58,040 in this Mutants, Monsters and Mercenaries or Mutants, Machines 1027 00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:03,080 and Mercenaries is partly it's all the stuff I've created for 1028 00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:04,640 Planet 28 that's never had a venue. 1029 00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,080 So things like extra weapons and scenarios and characters and 1030 00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,480 stuff. But it's also it's things people 1031 00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:13,560 have asked for to help them get into the game. 1032 00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,680 So one of the things I've consistently had people ask for 1033 00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:22,560 is basic character types. And I'm, I've always been a bit 1034 00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,000 like wary of doing it because I don't want to give people a 1035 00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:26,640 format and then they just stick to that. 1036 00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:30,760 But I also understand that absolute creative freedom is a 1037 00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:34,120 bit intimidating sometimes, especially if maybe you're 1038 00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:36,960 coming from games where you've got like army lists and set 1039 00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:39,920 units and stuff. So one of the things will be a 1040 00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:43,520 kind of essentially default character types that you can 1041 00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:47,240 quickly use for a game or if you just want to stat up a game 1042 00:56:47,240 --> 00:56:50,200 really quickly, you don't want to use your pre-existing 1043 00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,120 campaign characters or you want to play a solo game and just 1044 00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,040 need some quick enemies. It'll have your basic enemy 1045 00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:58,280 types in it and you just give them a gun and go, yeah, it's 1046 00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:01,280 that it costs this much points, drop it in your war band and 1047 00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:03,760 it's done. So things that can help people 1048 00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:06,880 kind of play games without necessarily needing to do all 1049 00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:11,480 the kind of prep work that you might do for a more in depth 1050 00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:14,760 narrative campaign. But also extra scenarios and 1051 00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:15,960 rules. And one of the things that's 1052 00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:19,400 going to be in there is rules for boats and naval fighting. 1053 00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:23,280 So rules for like boarding actions and drowning. 1054 00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:24,920 Things like that were fun to write. 1055 00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,560 Demon weapons are like really powerful weapons, have got their 1056 00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:32,360 own abilities and can like screw with you on the tabletop. 1057 00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:35,280 Things like that. Loads of weird scenarios. 1058 00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:37,400 I wrote a whole little mini campaign based on Les 1059 00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:40,440 Miserables. Can't remember why now I did 1060 00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,400 that, but I did. That'll be in there because I 1061 00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:46,760 like it. So it's going in and just, yeah, 1062 00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:50,520 just I want to give people lots of stuff so that when they come 1063 00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,200 to play it, they can always just grab something from it and make 1064 00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:56,160 the game different every time. Like if they say today we're 1065 00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:59,800 going to play with demon weapons, that game will be 1066 00:57:59,960 --> 00:58:02,040 unique because of that. Or today we're going to play 1067 00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:04,680 this scenario. They've just got it there and 1068 00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:09,040 they can mess with it. And then we had, I did set 1069 00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:10,600 script stretch goals for the campaign. 1070 00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:14,480 I didn't think the campaign would do as well as it's done so 1071 00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:17,800 quickly. So I only really set like 3 1072 00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:21,040 stretch goals. One of those is for paper 1073 00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:23,200 figures that start to set because I like making paper 1074 00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:24,160 figures. People seem to like them. 1075 00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:27,800 One of them is for an artisan because I've I've done a lot of 1076 00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:31,400 illustrations in the time I've been making Planet 28. 1077 00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:34,960 So collecting those into a little booklets and we can have 1078 00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:36,000 a flick through them would be nice. 1079 00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:39,000 But the other one is for another setting guide which is called 1080 00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,640 Smeg. And again, if you're a fan of 1081 00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:46,520 old British TV going back to Blue Peter, basically it's I 1082 00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:50,760 really like Red Dwarf. I don't, I don't know how 1083 00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:51,960 popular. No, I didn't think so. 1084 00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:59,280 Red Dwarf is a quite depressing sci-fi comedy about a guy who 1085 00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:04,200 gets frozen in stasis and wakes up 3,000,000 years in the future 1086 00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:09,720 on a spaceship in fast space where everyone's dead except for 1087 00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:12,840 his roommate, who he hates, who's been brought back as a 1088 00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:19,400 hologram, a computer that's gone senile, and the human offspring 1089 00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:24,480 of his cat, which have evolved in the ship 3,000,000 years and 1090 00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:29,320 is obsessed with fashion, did. Futurama. 1091 00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:31,960 Get inspiration from this because it sounds like you just 1092 00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:34,760 described like basically Futurama. 1093 00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:37,480 Yeah, Futurama. I think there's even like some 1094 00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:39,920 direct references to it in Futurama at some point. 1095 00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:41,880 I wouldn't be surprised. It's like Futurama meets 1096 00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:44,120 Farscape. Yeah, no, it sounds awesome. 1097 00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:49,240 Watch Red Dwarf is great, but it's so one of the fun things 1098 00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:52,000 about Red Dwarf is it doesn't have any aliens. 1099 00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:55,560 They are completely alone. And in the latest series, it 1100 00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:58,800 becomes about them kind of almost struggling to survive by 1101 00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:03,600 salvaging and encountering the remnants of humanity now that 1102 01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,360 humanity has gone extinct. So they're encountering things 1103 01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:10,000 like insane robots and genetically engineered life 1104 01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:14,360 forms that have gone like gone native and stuff like that. 1105 01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:17,960 And it's got loads of parodies of popular sci-fi. 1106 01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:20,960 Like they'll have an episode that's obviously a piss take of 1107 01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:23,880 aliens or they'll riff on Star Trek and stuff like that. 1108 01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:26,240 So I wanted to do something that's got that kind of more 1109 01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:31,200 comedic element to it. This, by the way, this will be 1110 01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:33,040 your new obsession if you go and watch Red Dwarf. 1111 01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:35,520 It's great fun. I'm already looking at it now. 1112 01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:39,320 The DVD collection's like 60 bucks on eBay and it went for 1113 01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:40,720 six. Wait a minute, how? 1114 01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,160 How long did this go for? Because it doesn't look short at 1115 01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:46,640 all. So originally I think it was 1116 01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:52,040 nine seasons, then it took a break, then it got, there's a TV 1117 01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:56,640 channel called Dave in the UK, which is where old TV shows go 1118 01:00:56,640 --> 01:01:01,520 to die. They made more seasons of it and 1119 01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:07,200 then there were two TV movies. It's very rare in British sitcom 1120 01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:09,960 like culture in that it has more than like 12 episodes. 1121 01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:13,840 Yeah, well, yeah, because British TV loves doing like 3 1122 01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:16,280 episodes a year, which is which is interesting. 1123 01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:23,680 Yeah, 12 seasons, 2 movies, a total of 123456789 times 6 is 1124 01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:31,640 54. 57 + 8 It's like 65 episodes in two movies like. 1125 01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:38,200 That's, I'd say about 30 in the first wave are really good. 1126 01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:41,280 They're all funny, but it's, you know, like anything, it goes on 1127 01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:45,360 a little too long. But yeah, the first few seasons 1128 01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:50,080 are genuinely really funny. It's very Hitchhiker's Guide to 1129 01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:54,040 the Galaxy in terms of like that depressing humor. 1130 01:01:56,600 --> 01:01:59,600 Yeah, I think my math is about on this. 1131 01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:02,400 I literally, I counted all that, but it says 74 episodes of Web 1132 01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:05,520 Dwarf have aired, including the special concluding the 12th 1133 01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:07,320 series. So I think my math is about 10 1134 01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:09,400 off on that. But I love that I literally have 1135 01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:14,160 a Hitchhiker's guy tattoo. I love super like dry British 1136 01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:16,840 humid literally says it's got the 42 and it says don't panic. 1137 01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:21,800 But I, yeah, you, you, you just you, you ruined me for, for 74 1138 01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:23,760 episodes of a show, or at least put me on to it. 1139 01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:24,960 And I really appreciate that. Well. 1140 01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:27,240 I'd tell you what as well, if you're really into because 1141 01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:28,360 you're really into role-playing games. 1142 01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:30,560 If you get really into Red Dwarf, you'll have to try and 1143 01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:32,960 track down the Red Dwarf role-playing game. 1144 01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:37,440 You know I have. You see the problem I have here? 1145 01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:39,920 This is about a 10th of what actually exists in this 1146 01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:42,160 apartment. There's a little space in there 1147 01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:44,760 somewhere. It's like it's my Holy Grail 1148 01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:47,000 piles but it goes for like 300 LB on eBay. 1149 01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:49,720 I've spent way more than that on a game. 1150 01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:55,840 I'll get there, but but so so I love that you. 1151 01:02:56,080 --> 01:03:00,400 This is the final edition that is kicking off like you to do 1152 01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:02,680 more stuff with it and you're already doing the more stuff 1153 01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:04,360 with it, which is great. So like this has already been 1154 01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:06,240 backed as far as like the stretch goal. 1155 01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:11,800 So we get 2 settings on top of all of the the compendium, the 1156 01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:14,320 mutants marks the machines. Now without stretching yourself 1157 01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:16,400 too thin because please don't do that. 1158 01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:19,040 Are are the, is that the end for the stretch goals? 1159 01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:21,400 Are you going to say now we just get you just get more stuff 1160 01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:23,240 because again, there's three weeks left in the campaign? 1161 01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:27,600 I don't I again, like I, I kind of thought we would do the 1162 01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:30,240 stretch goals, but we would just do the stretch goals. 1163 01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:32,640 I didn't expect us to breakthrough the stretch goals 1164 01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:36,600 in the first day, so I didn't really have a contingency plan. 1165 01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:39,960 There is there's more stuff. And to be honest, what I need to 1166 01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:42,600 do is sit down and go through all the stuff I've made and 1167 01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:46,960 never published and see what kind of form I want to put it 1168 01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:49,920 in. Like I really like the idea of 1169 01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:52,600 just doing more setting guides and just publishing increasingly 1170 01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:56,640 weirder like universes to play this game in. 1171 01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:00,880 And that's the other thing I should mention as well. 1172 01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:06,000 The one, the one thing about Plan 20 I do think is relatively 1173 01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:10,760 unique in war gaming is it's published on Open License, which 1174 01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:12,720 is something I really liked from the OSR. 1175 01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:16,960 So I like the idea of people taking it and doing their own 1176 01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:19,000 stuff with it and publishing their own expansions, making 1177 01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:22,440 their own guides for it. Like my, my dream would be for 1178 01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:27,560 someone to make loads of underweight stuff that I have no 1179 01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:30,920 involvement in, but people, people like it like that. 1180 01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:33,560 That would be amazing to me. Yeah. 1181 01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:35,760 No, there's, there's definitely stuff I would like to do and I 1182 01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:41,560 need to sit down basically and work out whether or not it's 1183 01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:44,640 finished enough for me to commit to it, to fit it within the 1184 01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:48,680 timeline. Because I've set myself a really 1185 01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:50,280 long fulfillment date on this deliberately. 1186 01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:55,760 So I can't go over it. But I am aware that I have a 1187 01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:58,560 tendency to go over fulfillment dates. 1188 01:04:59,960 --> 01:05:02,160 I like to. Be April 2027. 1189 01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:04,440 So yeah, you gave yourself a little bit of time a well, a 1190 01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:06,160 like a year easy. So yeah. 1191 01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:10,400 And I want to stress the goal is not to hit April 2027 and go 1192 01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:12,960 time to ship all those books that have been finished for six 1193 01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:14,960 months. The goal is to send it out 1194 01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:17,200 before that. But I've deliberately set myself 1195 01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:20,360 that goal so that if another horrible global event happens, 1196 01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:24,680 I'm not sat there like just not being able to do anything and 1197 01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:25,840 going off. Fuck, that's late. 1198 01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:29,120 Right, you got time. Are you distributing this 1199 01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:31,600 yourself again or are you trying to? 1200 01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:33,880 Find something it will be. It will be another case of me at 1201 01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:36,440 my dining room table, but I've got a label printer this time, 1202 01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:38,440 so there you. Go there you go. 1203 01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:41,920 Because you're already pushing 400 backers again with like a 1204 01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:44,080 week into the campaign. Yeah. 1205 01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:46,840 So if you get like another thousand, that's that's a lot of 1206 01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:48,360 books to to take up your living room. 1207 01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:52,560 Yeah, yeah. But you know, I've, I've, I've 1208 01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:55,440 moved house now I've got space. I've, I've got my, my studio as 1209 01:05:55,440 --> 01:05:56,480 well. So the chances are they might 1210 01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:58,360 get delivered there. There you go. 1211 01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:02,000 Because that's, I don't, I don't cast or produce anything at 1212 01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:04,680 home. I have a space to do that. 1213 01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:06,720 So nice. This time I've actually got a 1214 01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:09,520 little bit of logistical like groundwork in place to cope with 1215 01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:12,360 that. So hopefully that. 1216 01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:17,480 Yeah, and also the Kickstarter too to get everything is it's 1217 01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:21,440 extremely what's what I'm looking for reasonable for the 1218 01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:23,800 pricing, because if you all go all the way down to the the 1219 01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:26,800 biggest tier, it's only 40 lbs, which is like 55 bucks, which is 1220 01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:28,800 what I hit immediately. I was just like, yes, I want all 1221 01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:31,040 the stuff. And for 55 bucks to get all this 1222 01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:33,600 plus, you know, shipping from from whatever, which is fine 1223 01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:35,680 you're getting at the highest tier. 1224 01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:39,600 It's a planet 28 rule book. It's both physical scenes and 1225 01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:42,920 plus another death in the throne room and an A4 art print on top 1226 01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:47,160 of that for 55 bucks is a steal for like you said, a game that 1227 01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:50,160 you're able to pretty much do whatever you want with no wing 1228 01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:53,440 that there's going to be. Especially hearing you talk 1229 01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:56,080 about it knowing that not only are you getting the game, you're 1230 01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:59,360 getting at least 2 settings for it, an expanded compendium, and 1231 01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:03,320 the goal is to have just more and more settings to be able to 1232 01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:05,440 play the game in. So basically an endless amount 1233 01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:08,960 of stuff for it for what amounts to 40 to 50 bucks. 1234 01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:12,240 Yeah. I mean, I think again, I don't 1235 01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:14,480 want to say I always like embedded by working in a game 1236 01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:19,160 shop, but having worked retail side of tabletop gaming and like 1237 01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:23,960 talked to players and talked to people buying tabletop gaming 1238 01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:27,440 products, the things that people always liked were the things 1239 01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:30,920 that weren't extortionate that they could just take a punt on. 1240 01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:36,280 You know, you'd get amazing games, come out like big games 1241 01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:40,080 and they would be fantastic. Like games that were genuinely 1242 01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:43,440 like beautifully produced, amazing games, really nice 1243 01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,640 mechanics, amazing artwork, so much passion put into them and 1244 01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:49,440 they would fail because they were really expensive. 1245 01:07:50,880 --> 01:07:56,320 Like there's games I loved like, oh, what they're called Merck's 1246 01:07:56,400 --> 01:07:57,640 was a really great miniature game. 1247 01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:03,840 I say a few years ago, that was like a decade ago by, I want to 1248 01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:07,080 say Megacon games. It had a really unique art 1249 01:08:07,080 --> 01:08:10,120 style. It was really nice, but it was a 1250 01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:14,360 little bit pricey to get into, but you didn't need much to get 1251 01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:16,880 into it, but it was just a little bit pricey. 1252 01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:21,960 And so it struggled to, to to kind of grab people who would 1253 01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:25,080 otherwise I think have taken a punt on it and really loved it. 1254 01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:30,680 And I saw so many really good games not sell and then get sent 1255 01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:35,760 back to the supplier because people have got a limited hobby 1256 01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:38,000 budget. And if you're already playing 1257 01:08:38,479 --> 01:08:43,200 Warhammer or War Machine or DND as your core game, you're going 1258 01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:47,240 to buy those things first. And whatever's left is what the 1259 01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:50,160 indie stuff gets, you know, it's, it's trickle down 1260 01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:53,880 economics, you know, we're only getting what falls from the 1261 01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:57,840 table in terms of like people's people's hobby budget. 1262 01:08:58,279 --> 01:09:00,920 And so I want to make games that people can actually afford to 1263 01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:03,120 buy. And then if they don't like it, 1264 01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:04,760 I don't feel like I've robbed them. 1265 01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:09,359 Yeah, I, I feel like so, you know, we've been in the show for 1266 01:09:09,359 --> 01:09:11,240 for quite a while. We reviewed a lot of games. 1267 01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:15,000 We're pretty deep, especially in the TRBG scene and there's it's 1268 01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:17,840 the skirt machine is in AI think a better spot as far as like the 1269 01:09:17,840 --> 01:09:19,880 indie stuff goes. And I think a lot of it is just 1270 01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:22,000 the a lot of people have your perspective like they want to 1271 01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:24,760 make games, not products, and they want people to play the 1272 01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:27,040 games because they're fun and and they made the game because 1273 01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:27,920 they want to play it and it's fun. 1274 01:09:27,920 --> 01:09:31,080 So when you look at games like like planet 28, when you look at 1275 01:09:31,080 --> 01:09:33,240 games like Cauldron, when you look at games even like flames 1276 01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:35,600 of Orion, like flames of Orion has a free PDF that you can 1277 01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:37,520 download for whatever you're talking about making things 1278 01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:39,479 super affordable. That's you know, when you look 1279 01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:43,720 at teach RBGS, especially a lot of the biggest because one of 1280 01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:45,920 the things that that you said you based on want to build a 1281 01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:47,479 community. You want people making stuff for 1282 01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:49,120 the game and playing the game and doing these things. 1283 01:09:49,359 --> 01:09:51,800 When you look at the biggest kind of games in the indie indie 1284 01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:55,920 small market space, things like mothership, things like 1285 01:09:56,480 --> 01:10:00,040 Merkborg, things like cloud Empress, things like mouse 1286 01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:04,080 redder, All of those games have free core book PDFs, which 1287 01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:07,000 allows people to get into it so easily. 1288 01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:11,160 But then you have a lot of people in the space that it 1289 01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:14,920 feels like making products, like they're not putting out ash cans 1290 01:10:14,920 --> 01:10:16,840 or hiding it behind this. They're trying to drop their 1291 01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:19,280 first game is like a $30,000 Kickstarter or whatever. 1292 01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:21,800 And it's like, so are you trying to make a product and make money 1293 01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:23,880 or you trying to make a game that can build a community? 1294 01:10:24,240 --> 01:10:27,200 And it sounds like what you're doing and what you obviously 1295 01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:29,120 have done, because this is the third iteration of this and 1296 01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:32,080 people keep asking for more, is building a community, putting 1297 01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:34,560 out an open license, putting it available, like you said, all 1298 01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:37,680 your stuff free on War Vault. It's this is it's because it 1299 01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:39,680 sounds like you want to make a game and love making the game 1300 01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:43,200 and and people enjoy it. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's I guess 1301 01:10:43,200 --> 01:10:45,760 again, like comparing it to like coming from a fine art 1302 01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:50,000 background, I'd do it anyway. Like if people didn't pay me for 1303 01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:53,120 it, I'd still do it. It wouldn't necessarily be as 1304 01:10:53,120 --> 01:10:56,840 nice or as polished or it wouldn't be published book, but 1305 01:10:56,840 --> 01:11:00,040 I'd still make it. I just do it in my own time. 1306 01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:02,640 Like, you know, I still make sculpture. 1307 01:11:02,640 --> 01:11:05,680 I don't sell it or show it, but I still make it because I'm 1308 01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:10,160 gonna because it's a compulsion. And I think as well, like from 1309 01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:12,120 the war game miniature side of things. 1310 01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:17,000 I think the war gaming community, we're all quite aware 1311 01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:21,560 of the fact that we're a niche within a niche and that every 1312 01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:25,400 single game requires a certain level of investment and passion 1313 01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:26,680 on our part to actually engage with. 1314 01:11:26,680 --> 01:11:30,880 Like, if you're like, if you get, if you want to get into 1315 01:11:30,880 --> 01:11:34,600 like World War 2 gaming, you need to sit down and build your 1316 01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:36,920 miniatures and paint them and you need to do loads of stuff to 1317 01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:40,560 get into that. So, and then you've got loads of 1318 01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:42,480 systems you can play. But if if I publish a game 1319 01:11:42,480 --> 01:11:45,960 that's really specific, that requires you to have specific 1320 01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:49,840 miniatures, not only am I asking you to pay for the rulebook, I'm 1321 01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:52,800 also asking you to spend like 20 hours of your life building the 1322 01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:58,040 stuff to do that and engage in a whole like extracurricular thing 1323 01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:01,440 before you can actually decide whether you even like playing 1324 01:12:01,440 --> 01:12:04,800 this game. So I think it behoves me as the 1325 01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:08,360 creator to make that access as easy as possible and make that 1326 01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:10,360 affordable. Because if I'm going to ask 1327 01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:13,760 people to engage with it and spend their time committing to 1328 01:12:13,760 --> 01:12:17,160 it, I need to, to prove that it's worth doing, give them 1329 01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:18,880 something to actually engage with. 1330 01:12:19,480 --> 01:12:23,560 You know, just coming out the gate and saying by my rule book, 1331 01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:25,080 I'm not going to tell you if it's any good. 1332 01:12:25,160 --> 01:12:30,200 You got to buy it to find out. I think no one enjoys that and 1333 01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:33,400 it it just makes for a bitter experience if people then don't 1334 01:12:33,400 --> 01:12:37,640 enjoy it. And I think that also creates a 1335 01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:42,040 really, I like that. I, I think that it creates 1336 01:12:42,040 --> 01:12:44,800 people like more immersion into like what people are doing the 1337 01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:47,840 DIY aspect of the, the skirmish and hobby scene. 1338 01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:50,600 It feels like when you when you don't have to commit that to it, 1339 01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:52,520 you're committing more to it because there's, you know, 1340 01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:55,760 especially, you know, there's people that can just I wanna 1341 01:12:55,760 --> 01:12:57,840 play 5. Okay, I have the book, I'll be 1342 01:12:57,840 --> 01:13:00,360 the GM just show up. And then people have so much 1343 01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:01,720 less investment in what's going on. 1344 01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:04,960 And this one you'll find people on itch complaining that like a 1345 01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:07,600 free game has like all this and this and this and that wrong 1346 01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:09,120 with it because not investing into it. 1347 01:13:09,120 --> 01:13:10,640 They can just look at it me like, I don't want it. 1348 01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:12,720 I don't want it like when you actually have to invest more of 1349 01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:15,840 your time. And I feel like for me 1350 01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:19,240 personally, like having to invest the time, wanting to 1351 01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:21,800 invest the time into getting the minis, painting the minis, 1352 01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:23,360 putting the minis together and playing the game. 1353 01:13:23,360 --> 01:13:26,480 Like I'm going to be more invested in that game than if I 1354 01:13:26,480 --> 01:13:28,280 just have to show up and sit down at a table. 1355 01:13:28,280 --> 01:13:30,280 And that's one thing that I've really enjoyed getting more and 1356 01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:33,760 more into the scrimmage hobby. And I think that also makes the 1357 01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:38,840 consumers of the skirmish games more, I think understanding of 1358 01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:43,760 the creators and designers too, because they also have to create 1359 01:13:43,760 --> 01:13:46,280 and design and paint and do things in order to commit to the 1360 01:13:46,280 --> 01:13:47,880 game versus kind of just having to show. 1361 01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:51,680 Up everything, it's, it's a back and forth like there's, it's 1362 01:13:51,680 --> 01:13:55,280 almost collaborative where I provided a tool set that the 1363 01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:58,840 player can use and then they're then taking that and using that 1364 01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:00,640 in their own way. And then they might come back to 1365 01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:01,760 me with feedback about how that works. 1366 01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:05,280 Is it's, it's this kind of ongoing process of interaction 1367 01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:10,520 between two people creating from different perspectives, which I 1368 01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:13,760 don't think exists anywhere else outside of like the tabletop 1369 01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:15,880 gaming community. It's it's a very specific thing 1370 01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:19,600 where you get given something and then you can completely 1371 01:14:19,600 --> 01:14:22,360 interact with it in your own way and adjust it. 1372 01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:27,600 And alternately, there's very few mediums where you can do 1373 01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:28,920 that. You can't do that with, you 1374 01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:32,160 know, I mean, maybe I'm not a big video gamer, but like you 1375 01:14:32,160 --> 01:14:34,800 can't necessarily do that with like a video game where someone 1376 01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:37,560 gives you a video game and you go, cool, I'm going to do this 1377 01:14:37,560 --> 01:14:41,520 wrong and do it my way. Like they don't work like that. 1378 01:14:41,520 --> 01:14:43,560 You can't do it with painting or with a sculpture, something like 1379 01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:46,240 that. There's very few kind of 1380 01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:51,360 collaborative narrative creative experiences outside of tabletop 1381 01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:53,480 gaming. And I think war gaming in 1382 01:14:53,480 --> 01:14:59,360 particular has always it's never been as big as tabletop 1383 01:14:59,360 --> 01:15:01,680 role-playing in terms of like the product side of things, 1384 01:15:02,120 --> 01:15:04,640 which is weird because it requires more of a material 1385 01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:08,880 commitment. But if you if you ignore the 1386 01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:12,320 Games Workshop and it's kind of like offshoots like Warlord and 1387 01:15:12,320 --> 01:15:15,720 Mantic Wargaming is always basically just been blokes in 1388 01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:19,080 their sheds running small businesses selling toy soldiers 1389 01:15:19,080 --> 01:15:23,160 to the 12 people they know who want toy soldiers. 1390 01:15:23,880 --> 01:15:28,280 And then only with the advent of the Internet and like like 1391 01:15:28,280 --> 01:15:30,680 specialist publications has not been able to kind of spread out. 1392 01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:33,080 But it's always been fairly cottage industry. 1393 01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:38,960 So I think in a way like the the skirmish boom is, it's almost a 1394 01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:40,880 return to form where people have sort of looked at what 1395 01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:43,280 Gameswatch have been looked at, how popular it is and gone. 1396 01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:46,400 Well, let's carry on with how we used to do it, but we'll do it 1397 01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:52,400 in a kind of more communal way rather than just like handing 1398 01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:53,720 paper out to my mate down the pub. 1399 01:15:54,120 --> 01:15:56,520 I'll put it out to the community online and they can engage with 1400 01:15:56,520 --> 01:15:59,160 it. And that also kind of Harkins 1401 01:15:59,160 --> 01:16:02,200 back to what we talked about early on with the kind of 1402 01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:06,040 renaissance in the miniature makers and creators aspect of it 1403 01:16:06,040 --> 01:16:09,280 too, where I think that's really pulling a lot of people into to 1404 01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:11,320 more that buy in too. So you're getting these really 1405 01:16:11,320 --> 01:16:13,840 cool skirmish games that are being made and distributed at 1406 01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:15,720 the same time you're getting these artists and creators 1407 01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:17,080 going. I'm going to make minis my way 1408 01:16:17,080 --> 01:16:19,560 and I'm going to do what I do. But like you said, there really 1409 01:16:19,560 --> 01:16:22,120 isn't anything out there. You could have modders on video 1410 01:16:22,120 --> 01:16:25,280 games like you play like Sesame Street and Skyrim or whatever, 1411 01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:28,520 but it's not the same as or even in the teach RPG scene. 1412 01:16:29,360 --> 01:16:32,280 Sure, you can play imagination a little bit differently, but to 1413 01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:35,920 actually be like, here's a game and you go, OK, now I'm gonna go 1414 01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:39,480 not just because no one in board games too, no one in board games 1415 01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:41,840 hands your board and says OK, now go like paint the pieces and 1416 01:16:41,840 --> 01:16:44,440 do whatever. There are some that that you'll 1417 01:16:44,440 --> 01:16:47,000 get cool models for, but it's not like you have to build this 1418 01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:48,920 and paint it and do it before you can get to the table. 1419 01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:53,560 It really is a very small thing that tabletop, specifically 1420 01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:55,480 scrimmage and wargaming does that I think does differently 1421 01:16:55,480 --> 01:16:57,960 than just about anything else where it's like, here's a game, 1422 01:16:58,280 --> 01:17:02,000 go paint and build all of this stuff just so that you can play 1423 01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:03,240 it. And then let's sit down and 1424 01:17:03,240 --> 01:17:05,520 actually do the thing for it. Is it's it's the thing that's 1425 01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:08,240 been tickling my brain in a, in a really good way for for over a 1426 01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:10,040 year now. And it's, I think it's that 1427 01:17:10,040 --> 01:17:13,440 investment, that DIY aspect that that kind of like immersion, you 1428 01:17:13,440 --> 01:17:16,760 get into the community, into the scene by having to do all of 1429 01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:20,200 that is, is great. And you know, it's where I'm at. 1430 01:17:21,360 --> 01:17:25,400 It's umm, it's weird as well because like again, that that 1431 01:17:25,400 --> 01:17:29,320 whole thing, there was a period a couple of years ago where that 1432 01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:32,880 was the flavor of the month in the like the fine art world. 1433 01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:35,800 The contemporary art world was collaborative world building. 1434 01:17:36,640 --> 01:17:39,440 And there was a couple of months where the fine art world got 1435 01:17:39,440 --> 01:17:42,120 obsessed with role-playing games and Warhammer. 1436 01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:45,480 Because people who take things very seriously and write 1437 01:17:45,480 --> 01:17:49,680 articles about stuff discovered that there was this whole way of 1438 01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:54,000 engaging creatively that they just had no access to without 1439 01:17:54,000 --> 01:17:56,560 being part of this community. And they're like, oh, that's 1440 01:17:56,560 --> 01:17:58,680 really neat. We've been trying to do this for 1441 01:17:58,680 --> 01:18:00,240 years. Like, art has struggled for 1442 01:18:00,240 --> 01:18:05,800 years to come up with a way to fully engage with its audience 1443 01:18:06,280 --> 01:18:09,680 in a way that's reciprocal. And it's tried so many different 1444 01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:11,960 ways. And nerds have been doing it for 1445 01:18:11,960 --> 01:18:13,520 decades and just not telling anyone. 1446 01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:18,760 Yeah, no, it's, it's been great, It's been fun. 1447 01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:22,720 And again, systems like Planet 28 make it, it is different than 1448 01:18:22,720 --> 01:18:24,920 a lot of systems out there. So it does really scratch a 1449 01:18:24,920 --> 01:18:27,080 different kind of itch where you can do whatever you want. 1450 01:18:27,080 --> 01:18:31,880 And, and the fact that going forward, knowing that you're 1451 01:18:31,880 --> 01:18:34,800 going to be doing setting guides and and, you know, basically if 1452 01:18:34,800 --> 01:18:37,000 someone says I want this thing, there's a chance that in the 1453 01:18:37,000 --> 01:18:38,920 future you might get it. Just don't ask for anything bad 1454 01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:42,400 because apparently every time you make something, the world 1455 01:18:42,400 --> 01:18:44,320 follows suit. So let's keep. 1456 01:18:44,320 --> 01:18:49,320 It I know I'll do like a nice like utopian setting next there 1457 01:18:49,320 --> 01:18:51,240 you. Go see if things. 1458 01:18:51,240 --> 01:18:54,080 Turn around. Yeah, well, I feel like maybe 1459 01:18:54,080 --> 01:18:58,120 that's the one miss you're gonna have with your things, but it 1460 01:18:58,200 --> 01:19:00,720 would be great if you could try because maybe you do have the 1461 01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:04,200 touch. So people are going to go back 1462 01:19:04,200 --> 01:19:06,080 this on Kickstarter. The links are going to be, it's 1463 01:19:06,080 --> 01:19:07,880 the Internet, you know how the Internet works and they'll be 1464 01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:10,040 below or whatever. But when people are looking for 1465 01:19:10,040 --> 01:19:12,760 your miniatures, when people are looking for Planet 28 and all 1466 01:19:12,760 --> 01:19:15,480 the future stuff, like where are people able to find you on the? 1467 01:19:15,480 --> 01:19:19,240 Internet, so the web stories Mammoth Miniatures. 1468 01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:21,400 So if you search Mammoth Miniatures, we should come up. 1469 01:19:21,400 --> 01:19:28,200 I think there is a very nice company called Mammoth Mammoth 1470 01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:31,280 Factory Miniatures who are an STL Patreon. 1471 01:19:31,480 --> 01:19:33,240 They're not me. So they are very nice. 1472 01:19:33,240 --> 01:19:36,440 So if you see them, don't like shout at them and tell them 1473 01:19:36,440 --> 01:19:37,560 they're the wrong mammoth. They're lovely. 1474 01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:41,920 But yeah, so mammoth miniatures. This, the web store has 1475 01:19:41,920 --> 01:19:44,840 everything. Everything I will say is cast to 1476 01:19:44,840 --> 01:19:46,720 order. I don't keep stock of most 1477 01:19:46,720 --> 01:19:48,200 things. Some things I will have stock 1478 01:19:48,200 --> 01:19:49,800 for. But if you order something, just 1479 01:19:49,800 --> 01:19:53,200 bear in mind once I've got that order, I've got to go physically 1480 01:19:53,200 --> 01:19:56,560 make it. So sometimes it I am a bit slow. 1481 01:19:56,640 --> 01:19:58,760 I'll admit. I'm well aware of that. 1482 01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:01,240 But it doesn't mean it's not coming. 1483 01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:03,600 It just means I'm, I'm in the process of actually hand 1484 01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:07,160 manufacturing it. And then we're on Instagram as 1485 01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:09,560 Mammoth miniatures. I'm on Instagram as Nick the 1486 01:20:09,560 --> 01:20:13,760 Evans, which is where I'll post like work in progress stuff or 1487 01:20:13,760 --> 01:20:16,080 like stuff that isn't necessarily Mammoth miniatures 1488 01:20:16,080 --> 01:20:17,680 related, but might be miniature related. 1489 01:20:19,080 --> 01:20:23,560 Also, just stuff that isn't like immediately in the pipeline for 1490 01:20:23,560 --> 01:20:25,240 Mammoth Miniatures. I'll post it there as a work in 1491 01:20:25,240 --> 01:20:28,720 progress just because that's basically just like my my diary 1492 01:20:31,640 --> 01:20:34,640 and then I'm on Blue sky as well as we discussed this earlier 1493 01:20:34,640 --> 01:20:36,360 that I can't remember my own blue sky name. 1494 01:20:36,840 --> 01:20:37,760 Nick. Nick the Mammoth. 1495 01:20:37,800 --> 01:20:41,800 Is that what it is? And mammoth miniatures Nick or 1496 01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:43,800 Nick the Mammoth on Blue Sky as well. 1497 01:20:44,520 --> 01:20:47,000 There you go. So yeah, you'll find me there as 1498 01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:50,800 well. I'm not a huge like social media 1499 01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:52,600 guy. I don't, I don't like to clock 1500 01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:55,960 people's feedback stuff so might not post very frequently, but as 1501 01:20:55,960 --> 01:20:57,920 a rule, if I'm doing something new or I'm working on something, 1502 01:20:57,920 --> 01:21:00,840 you'll see it in one of those places and I'll I'll cross post 1503 01:21:00,840 --> 01:21:05,800 it as much as I can there. You go so find Nick at all the 1504 01:21:05,800 --> 01:21:08,480 things go back. There's 21 days left, and by the 1505 01:21:08,480 --> 01:21:10,640 time this drops, it's probably gonna be more like 14 or less. 1506 01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:13,560 But go back Planet 28. Trust me, you're not going to 1507 01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:15,680 regret it. It is a fantastic game, and I'm 1508 01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:18,120 very excited to see what is different with the new edition. 1509 01:21:18,280 --> 01:21:19,880 Nick, thank you so much for coming on the show. 1510 01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:21,320 I hope this is not the last time. 1511 01:21:21,320 --> 01:21:22,640 It's been a pleasure talking with you. 1512 01:21:22,840 --> 01:21:24,840 Yeah, it's really appreciate it. Family. 1513 01:21:25,360 --> 01:21:27,080 Yeah. So that is going to be us for 1514 01:21:27,080 --> 01:21:28,400 today. Thank you, everyone that's been 1515 01:21:28,400 --> 01:21:29,560 here. Thank you everyone for watching 1516 01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:31,360 and we will see you all later. Bye.