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Hello and welcome to the Weekly 
Scroll Podcast. 

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My name is Ryan and with me we 
have a special guest today that 

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is Tyler Crumrein of Possible 
World Games. 

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How you doing this morning, 
Tyler? 

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Doing well. 
Thanks so much for having me. 

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It's a it's a balmy day here in 
Pittsburgh, PA, reminding me the

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slow death of our planet as 
winter lasts fewer and fewer 

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days and weeks every year. 
Hey. 

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You know what, I'll take it for 
now, but I know it's awful. 

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Let's just say that I used to 
live in Pennsylvania, actually 

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on the other side, where like, 
half the fucking indie scene 

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apparently lives. 
Like keep finding. 

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Out. 
That's the problem. 

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Like a lot of people don't 
realize that you can fit 

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multiple countries in the 
European Union inside of 

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Pennsylvania. 
Like it is, it is a large state 

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and it was always like a 
personal bugbear of mine. 

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Anytime I would see like a band 
that I like, you know, they're 

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like, we're doing our national 
tour and they'd be like we're 

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going to every state, blah, 
blah. 

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And they would go to Philly, but
they wouldn't go to Pittsburgh. 

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I'm like you guys. 
It's a four hour drive from 

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Pittsburgh to Philly. 
It's a. 

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Good. 
It's it's a minute you gotta you

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gotta pop into Mr. Smalls. 
Hey, we got we. 

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Got arrested root out here. 
I'm in California, so if you're 

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not in LA, you're not seeing 
anybody and it's like a 12 hour 

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drive from top to bottom. 
So I feel you trust me, I'm 

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right there with you. 
So. 

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So for those that might not know
know you or possible world 

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games, can you tell us just a 
little bit about possible world 

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games and maybe some of the 
stuff that you've put out that 

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people might know? 
Yeah, I will start with one very

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small correction and it's one 
that I do a lot and that it is 

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possible Worlds games. 
And there is an XI See it right?

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There on the screen, so many of 
them, we have just dozens. 

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Well, less Dozens. 
More like, I don't know, coming 

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up on 10 worlds that you can 
explore with possible worlds. 

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It's all it is not in my Twitter
bio or Twitter handle because 

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not enough characters for 
worlds. 

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So I'm just possible W games on 
there and then like that makes 

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for its own kind of, you know, 
pile of problems with like, 

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well, I've got to be on 
Instagram and I've got to be on 

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TikTok and I've got to be on all
these other places. 

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Because if any one of these, 
like, life lines for my personal

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livelihood just decides to 
disappear one day, you got to 

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diversify. 
But before I was possible Worlds

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games, I was, I was just, you 
know, random hobbyist game 

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designer. 
I actually was a full time drama

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turg, which is the most 
pretentious title in theater. 

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I was like the editing guy. 
Basically a dramaturg is to a 

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new play what a editor is to a 
novel. 

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So I would work with 
playwrights, a lot of like, you 

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know, honing work, kind of 
identifying like scenes to be 

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added, removed, character 
motivations. 

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If there's like a talk back 
after a play or something like 

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that and usually be the one 
moderating those writing 

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programs for plays, things like 
that. 

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And that is a job that a lot of 
theaters don't have someone on 

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staff doing those things. 
They hire them for specialized 

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projects. 
Like if there is a new play from

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like a new writer or something 
that requires a bunch of extra 

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research, they will bring in a 
Drama Turk to be like, hey, we 

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just would appreciate having 
extra creative in the room to 

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help make sure that this is a 
smooth process. 

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And I had a network of theaters 
throughout Pennsylvania and Off 

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Broadway in New York that would 
bring me in for shows, you know,

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like 1 show a year. 
But if you have like a handful 

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of theaters you can cobble 
together living doing that. 

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And so I was working in theater 
and doing some editing on the 

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side as like a literary person 
who also just enjoyed RPGSI 

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started off editing games for 
World Champ Gameco, a friend of 

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the pod. 
Yeah, I love Adam. 

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We we often say this is an Adam 
Vast and podcast, so yeah. 

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Gave me a lot of my earliest 
opportunities in the space and I

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had been making a small game of 
my own on the side called Beak 

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Feather and Bone when folks 
like, encourage me like hey, you

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should, you know it was the 2nd 
Zine quest. 

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You know, Zine Quest one was a 
surprise hit. 

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Zine Quest two. 
Everyone was like, why the hell 

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not. 
You know, let's hop in. 

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And so at friends encouraging I 
put it up with the goal of $1000

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and it raised $20,000. 
And then my career disappeared 

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because a pandemic happened and 
all of the theaters closed their

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doors. 
So I am still, like, eternally 

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grateful that I had this project
that was like, OK, I have some 

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momentum here. 
If I can lean into this, you 

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know, maybe this will get me 
through until I figure out, 

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like, when theaters are opening 
back up or, you know, how am I 

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going to weather this storm? 
And what I found was that 

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theaters didn't open back up 
nearly fast enough. 

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Well, for my career, I think. 
Personally, I think theaters 

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could still be pumping their 
brakes some with like some of 

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the more reckless stuff they're 
doing out there. 

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But you know, like continuing to
sell and fulfill the feather and

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bone wound up being a full time 
job. 

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And so going into the year 
following, I was like, you know,

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I think theatre isn't going to 
be kind of doing it anymore. 

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And a lot of the, like, 
experimental stuff that helped 

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me get my name in theatre was 
also the things that were like 

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really fun pieces. 
But like, I was never going to 

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get a desk job. 
Like the best I could hope for 

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is like being a really good 
freelancer, which is its own 

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like very stressful way of 
living as an artist. 

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So I decided like, hey, I'm 
going to do another campaign. 

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I'm going to incorporate an LLC 
so I don't get fucked on taxes 

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again. 
And if I can repeat the success 

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of beak, feather and Bone, then 
I'll try and make a go at it 

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full time. 
And so that is when I put up the

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possible worlds box set that is 
a collection of six games, each 

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of them like about 30 pages 
long. 

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Similar length to beak, feather 
and bone, but just different 

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stuff that kind of showcased my 
design ethos, like the style of 

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games I'm interested in, you 
know the different kinds of like

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worlds and genres I'm interested
in. 

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And thankfully that project 
funded too. 

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So kind of since then I have 
been just trying to figure out, 

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like, OK, you know, as someone 
who had an early breakout hit, 

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how do you translate this into a
career? 

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You know, how do you make sure 
that, like, I am, you know, 

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making projects that I'm happy 
with, But also thinking about 

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things like, OK, a key part of 
making a living in tabletop is 

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going to conventions and selling
at conventions. 

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And if I'm going to have to go 
to conventions, I don't want to 

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have two games on my table. 
So I'm going to do a box set of 

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6 so that when I start going to 
conventions, I'll have seven 

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games on my table. 
And even if people, you know 

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don't buy all seven, maybe 
they'll want one or two. 

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So a lot of things like that of 
like continuing to put out 

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games, support games. 
I did an expansion for Beak, 

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Feather and Bone, more maps that
won me in any, which led to all 

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of its own, you know, joys and 
problems and things like that. 

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And now I am back with my next 
original game, the details of 

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our Escape, which is my return 
to Zine Quest. 

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And also just like trying to do 
a little bit of what I did in 

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collaborative spaces like the 
theater, translate that to RP GS

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Son and kind of do like a slower
generational process that also 

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invites like artists from other 
spheres into the scene. 

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And it's, I hadn't said that I 
worked in theater. 

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You could probably tell from the
monologue, although I appreciate

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your providing the props. 
Right. 

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You know, that's that's what 
we've always said over and over 

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again our best interviews or 
when we can just sit here and 

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listen. 
And that's exactly what we like 

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to be as just a platform for 
people to to be as passionate 

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about what they are doing as we 
are about what they're doing. 

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I will say there are not, I 
don't think there are many indie

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creators out there that can say 
that they had three projects 

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back-to-back to back that went 
for $20,000 on Kickstarter, 

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$18,000 on Kickstarter and 
$30,000 on Kickstarter. 

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So to do, what's the math on 
that, like 60 grand on your 

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first three projects across 
Kickstarter out of nowhere. 

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It's got to feel nice because as
you know we talked a little bit 

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before stream like that's not, 
it's not like that's it. 

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You know a lot of these projects
and and you talked about the LLC

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and stuff, they're still selling
and they're still selling out 

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and you're still distributing 
these all over the place. 

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So it started a whole thing. 
So it's really neat and 

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interesting to hear. 
The timing couldn't have been 

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better clearly with the 
pandemic, but how one thing 

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catapulted into these continuous
successes and then getting us to

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the project that we're out right
now, It's just really 

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interesting cuz I love again, 
we've talked about this before 

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stream. 
I love these. 

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I love that they're Spiral bound
and Hounds is my favorite and 

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it's just really fantastic to 
hear that the success is 

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continuing and you have like all
of the problems of of more 

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success, which you know, good 
problems, which is. 

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Also, like, you know, 
fascinating because, like there 

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have been, you know, a number 
of. 

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And so another fun thing that 
has happened within the last 

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year is that I've also started 
to teach game design and 

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publishing at Carnegie Mellon 
University here in Pittsburgh, 

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which is wild because I used to 
temp for them. 

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I was the lowest of the low, 
literally was just like mooching

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healthcare off the university 
because they let me like as a 

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temp kind of come and go as I 
had theater projects. 

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But you know, when they had an 
opening in there like Ida, you 

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know, collaborative learning 
environment for a professor, 

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someone local recommended me as 
like, hey, we have a game 

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designer in town who does this 
kind of work. 

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They reached out. 
It's like, oh, yeah, I used to 

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teach theater and university 
settings all the time. 

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And I was like, I don't have a 
master's or a PhD, though. 

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Like, is that OK? 
Because your job application 

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says a terminal degree is 
required. 

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And they're like, oh, yeah, 
you're you're a professional. 

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You know, like, that's that's 
more valuable than that. 

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It's fine. 
You figured out as you go. 

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But you know, through that and 
working with these students and,

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you know, really thinking 
intentionally about, like the 

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different ways that someone can,
you know, be an RPG designer. 

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Because this course that I teach
has it's an elective, It is open

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to all majors. 
CMU has a game design major, but

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this is one that is like open to
anyone. 

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Like it can count towards the 
minor if you wanted to. 

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It's kind of a Portal course. 
But I have a number of people 

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who are taking that class who 
are like, I eat and breathe 

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tabletop role-playing games. 
And I want to learn, you know, 

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better ways to kind of like 
design and, you know, play, test

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and distribute these games that 
I already love and that, like, I

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just want to be an even closer 
part to the scene or people who 

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are like, yeah, I am on a career
track. 

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I'm paying to go to university 
to prepare me for a career. 

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And the career that I want is 
tabletop games or video games or

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game design in general. 
And I also have just as many, if

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not more students in that class 
who are like, well, it sounded 

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more interesting than pottery. 
You know, they're taking it 

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because they're like, you know, 
yeah, it just sounded fun. 

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And so I'll go through the class
and I'll ask, like, So what are 

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your day one? 
I'll ask like, what's your 

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experience playing, you know, 
role-playing games? 

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And I have some people saying, 
like, I've been playing in the 

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same Vampire the Masquerade 
campaign, you know, since I was 

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a freshman in high school. 
And you have some people who are

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like, well, I don't really play 
RPGs or video games, but I 

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really enjoy character creation 
in The Sims, you know. 

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And so a lot of like, you know, 
even as we talk about the 

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success of, you know, my 
Kickstarters and my business and

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things like that, a lot of that 
is because it became very clear 

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to me early on that this was a 
life raft for me. 

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00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:17,280
I was like, I have the skills. 
I have the publishing skills and

223
00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,000
the creative, like product 
management skills. 

224
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,600
For my time in theater, I also 
ran a small press for theatrical

225
00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,440
literature. 
So, like, I knew how to lay out 

226
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,000
books, I knew how to print 
books. 

227
00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,240
And so I was like, hey, I'm 
going to make a lot of decisions

228
00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,080
that are motivated by the fact 
that, yes, I love this, but also

229
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:39,560
I need this to pay my rent. 
And it is just as valid and just

230
00:13:39,560 --> 00:13:47,200
as, like you know, deserving of,
like, you know, praise for 

231
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,520
someone to just have an 
enriching hobby. 

232
00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,000
You know, like I do not think 
that the students in my class 

233
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:57,280
that are like looking to get 
career advice are any more 

234
00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,600
valuable or valid than the 
student who is like, hey, I'm 

235
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,480
just looking for something that 
might be fun for this semester. 

236
00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:09,200
Or maybe they pick up like a 
hobby that they get into during 

237
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,280
undergrad and then they never 
play again. 

238
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,600
Or, you know, maybe they own the
only games they make are the 

239
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,320
games that they make for grade 
in my class. 

240
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,360
But even then, like one of their
play testing assignments is 

241
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,040
like, run this game for your 
family. 

242
00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,400
You know, run this game for 
people in your home towns. 

243
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,160
And even if that's the only time
they do that, that is such like 

244
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:34,040
a like really beautiful 
experience to be like, I made a 

245
00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:39,760
game, play it with me, you know.
And so as we talk about like the

246
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,160
success of possible Worlds games
and also like the trials of 

247
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,200
possible Worlds games, a lot of 
people don't tell you that. 

248
00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:51,920
Like as a small indie, when I 
won an Any for the expansion of 

249
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:57,560
Big Feather and Bone Claw Atlas,
it led to a huge uptick in 

250
00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,960
sales. 
But also my entire inventory 

251
00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:02,880
sold out. 
You know, and suddenly, you 

252
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:04,440
know, it's post Gen. 
Con. 

253
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:11,040
I've got packs unplugged, you 
know, like in the, you know, in 

254
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,640
the window. 
And I'm like, how do I get all 

255
00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,320
of these games, You know, how do
I make sure that like, I have 

256
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,560
what I need to to, you know, 
continue to pay my rent? 

257
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,880
Because it's one thing for your 
distributor to say like, Oh my 

258
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,520
gosh, these games are selling 
like hotcakes. 

259
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,360
Please send us 1000 copies of 
Beef Feather and Bone. 

260
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,240
But when you're like, you know, 
a small to now, I would consider

261
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,120
myself more of like a medium 
indie. 

262
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:42,720
It's a lot of learning to figure
out like, OK, they want 1000 

263
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,400
copies. 
I need to print more than 1000 

264
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,560
copies so I can satisfy them and
also have stock for myself. 

265
00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,480
And when I send them those 
thousand copies, even if they 

266
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,760
were all to sell out tomorrow, 
they pay out on a quarterly 

267
00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,600
basis. 
So whatever money I'm spending 

268
00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,200
to print these copies, I know 
that I'm not going to get a 

269
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,000
return on my investment until 
the end of the quarter when I 

270
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,560
get a paycheck. 
So things like that and even 

271
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,520
like I love the wire bound 
games, like that was like a key 

272
00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,840
element of that box set for me. 
And there's some people who like

273
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,520
just have never engaged with 
those games because they're like

274
00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:20,840
I can't read it. 
They're like flipping it, 

275
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,760
turning it too complicated or 
folks are like, yeah, I don't 

276
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:29,040
really know where it would go on
my shelf, etcetera, which I'd 

277
00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,080
say like it's a 30 page game, 
you can figure it out. 

278
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,920
But the more I go to 
conventions, the more I ship 

279
00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,880
games to distributors, the more 
retailers tell me like, hey, I 

280
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,240
love your games. 
I don't have a shelf to put them

281
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,360
on. 
You know, that ultimately led me

282
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:50,080
to like make the decision to 
switch that suit to you know, 

283
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,520
paperbacks just because I'm like
well it's going to be a lot 

284
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:56,840
easier to print and move these 
around. 

285
00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,160
But now I am in like the 
situation where it's like man, 

286
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,079
but I I'd really not like a nice
little case for them. 

287
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,680
Like all their widths are 
different now so they don't 

288
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:08,200
really like fit the same in that
box. 

289
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,480
So I'm like do I print more of 
these boxes, do I make like a 

290
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,440
cool kind of like cloth solution
for it? 

291
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:20,960
I'll like dear Unicorn stuff but
yeah, so all that to say thank 

292
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,599
you, like I I really appreciate 
it. 

293
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:28,840
But also, you know, if anyone is
hearing about, like the 

294
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,200
successes that I've had or the 
ways that I've been able to make

295
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,080
a career out of it, I would 
encourage you that. 

296
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:39,760
Like, rather than feel less than
or feel jealous. 

297
00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:44,240
Like, please shoot me an e-mail.
Because like literally, I would 

298
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,560
not be here if not for the 
generosity of people like Adam 

299
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,640
Voss, People like Will Yelps, 
you know, the entire brain trust

300
00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:55,960
extended universe. 
Because like when I had 

301
00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:00,600
questions, I asked them and you 
know, when I needed support, I 

302
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,840
reached out for it. 
So if anyone is listening to 

303
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,600
this stuff and being like, damn,
like couldn't be me, like yeah, 

304
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,840
it could be. 
But also, it doesn't have to be 

305
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,880
like I am not any more 
legitimate of a designer than 

306
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,240
anyone else because it pays my 
rent if anything. 

307
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,480
Like I'm just under more stress 
because I know I'll die if I 

308
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,280
don't make a game. 
Listen, a wise man once said MO 

309
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,880
money, MO problems, you know. 
Yes, and that's true. 

310
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:28,960
Yeah, I think that was Charles 
Dickens. 

311
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,920
And in The hit story of 
Christmas is a Christmas Story, 

312
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,640
Christmas Tale. 
I just remember Ebenezer Scrooge

313
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:39,680
shouting out his window at that 
orphan. 

314
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,280
More money, more. 
Problems. 

315
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:45,760
Exactly. 
That's the one. 

316
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,360
I will say that the Christmas. 
All these turkeys as big as me, 

317
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:53,680
you know, the goose in the store
window. 

318
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:59,480
It's it's stressful. 
So I will say, and it's funny 

319
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,360
because we did talk about the 
wire bound thing before and then

320
00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:05,360
the first thing I said was, God,
I love these are wire bound and 

321
00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:06,920
it became this whole thing and 
it's great. 

322
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,480
I'm very glad I have a copy of 
the Wire Bound once. 

323
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,160
I love them and I find all the 
reasons that you did originally 

324
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,560
make them wire bound are good 
reasons and it's very irritating

325
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:21,400
that people see any minor 
discomfort to their current 

326
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,680
status quo as a a hurdle versus 
an opportunity. 

327
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,040
So I'm whatever. 
The solution though is if you 

328
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:29,680
come up with another box that 
I'm going to have to buy that 

329
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,400
too. 
So let's, I'm OK if you hold up 

330
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,000
on that for a little bit. 
Well, people want like the last 

331
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,960
wire bounds in existence. 
Check your friendly local game 

332
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,200
store. 
Some of them might have those. 

333
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,080
I know Indie Press Revolution 
still has a handful in stock 

334
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,360
because they want to make sure 
that they move through all those

335
00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:51,720
before they take any of the 
paperbacks. 

336
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:57,440
And then I have like a handful 
of copies of Scene Thieves and 

337
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,400
Hounds, the wire bound editions 
on of those that again, just 

338
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,480
like I don't really travel with 
anymore. 

339
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,480
So they are up on my web store 
at a discount. 

340
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,960
So if folks want to see what 
we're talking about, like head 

341
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:11,720
on over there. 
You can get it for like 8 bucks.

342
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,360
Yeah, and and Hounds is my 
favorite game. 

343
00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:15,360
I know, I know. 
It's. 

344
00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:19,360
I know you want people. 
It was a dating SIM and. 

345
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:25,000
Dating, SIM and wish lists are 
the ones that like get the least

346
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:28,520
people. 
I can't say that they get the 

347
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,280
least amount of play because you
know once you release a game 

348
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,040
it's out of your hands. 
You only really know what people

349
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:39,760
are vocal about online. 
But I will say like all of the 

350
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,680
other games I've heard, you 
know, like seen streams or heard

351
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:48,400
actual plays, which is like 
really just, you know, balm from

352
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,280
my soul. 
Like I love anytime, like any 

353
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,560
audience size, if you ever play 
one of my games, please like tag

354
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,520
me so that I know, so that I can
listen to it. 

355
00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:01,640
It brings me so much joy. 
But Wishlist and Dating SIM are 

356
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:06,840
the two that like, I feel like 
haven't really had their their 

357
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,280
time in the sun. 
Which I say not, you know, 

358
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,960
because like I financially 
benefit from hype for games, but

359
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,400
because they are two of the 
games that like I designed. 

360
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,920
Wish List is very much how I run
traditional campaigns. 

361
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,880
And so I was like, this is for 
the old heads and dating dot SIM

362
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:30,880
is the game that I designed 
like, OK, this is my game for 

363
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,600
people who have never played 
RPGs before, I've never even 

364
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:38,040
heard of them before. 
So they are like on opposite 

365
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:39,920
ends of the accessibility 
spectrum. 

366
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,720
So I'm just kind of curious to 
see how how folks jive with 

367
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,320
them, you know, like in 
conversation. 

368
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,760
Maybe we'll have to engage with 
them here on the on the stream 

369
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:51,560
at some point. 
Maybe when we're not doing an 

370
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:53,440
episode every other day. 
But yeah, maybe. 

371
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:54,520
Not. 
When it is, you know. 

372
00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:02,120
You know, Zine Quest Month hell.
So, right, yeah, a good help 

373
00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:04,120
though. 
We we love that we're able to to

374
00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:08,200
have conversations like this and
talk about projects that are are

375
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,760
out for Zenquest. 
And then Speaking of that, you 

376
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,240
have a project that's out right 
now on Zenquest, something 

377
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,920
you've been working on for years
and it's out right now. 

378
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,800
So this is the details of our 
escape. 

379
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:21,840
So tell us about the details of 
our escape. 

380
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,640
So the details of our escape is 
an experiment in a lot of ways, 

381
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:34,560
but a really fruitful 1. 
So like I said, I used to work 

382
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,720
in theater and I used to own and
run a theater publishing company

383
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,360
called plays. 
Inverse plays, one word, inverse

384
00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:45,120
another word. 
And kind of the idea with that 

385
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:49,840
is that there are a lot of plays
that never get published unless 

386
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,280
it's for an acting edition 
because a lot of play publishers

387
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,400
make money through performance 
royalties, not through the 

388
00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,600
individual sales of their books.
So when you see like an acting 

389
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,960
edition, it just kind of has the
title, no cover art, you know, 

390
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,480
often kind of like cramped text 
layout because they want to save

391
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,440
money on pages, things like 
that. 

392
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:11,920
Because what they're doing is 
they're printing an instruction 

393
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:13,400
manual. 
They're not printing a book. 

394
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,880
They're like we want to get like
as many copies of this as we can

395
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,600
into high schoolers hands so 
that when they perform, you 

396
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:25,560
know, like I wanted to say 
waiting for Godot, but like God 

397
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:27,480
bless whatever high school is 
performing that. 

398
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,240
Although I'm sure they are like 
too many people pressure kids, 

399
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,280
like perform the quote UN quote 
greats when really they should 

400
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,680
just do something that like lets
them goof off with their friends

401
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,040
anyway. 
So a lot of plays, you know, 

402
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,120
they have to get their reps in, 
you know, before they're 

403
00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:45,880
attractive enough for an acting 
edition because basically it's 

404
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,200
like, oh, if this had a run on 
Broadway, other people are going

405
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,880
to want to perform this too. 
And what that means is a lot of 

406
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,200
the experimental plays, a lot of
the, like niche stuff, the weird

407
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,040
stuff, the, like, hard to 
perform. 

408
00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,720
But like really interesting 
plays just never see the light 

409
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,440
of day. 
You know, you have to be in the 

410
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,040
right place at the right time. 
And maybe you see it performed 

411
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:10,960
in a garage somewhere or, you 
know, it's someone writes it and

412
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,080
no one produces it, No one like,
and because no one's producing 

413
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:15,680
it, it's not attractive for 
publishing. 

414
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,200
So it just winds up in a hard 
drive somewhere. 

415
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,760
I created plays in verse to 
champion those kind of plays. 

416
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,440
Print them the way you would a 
book of poetry and just say 

417
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,960
that, like, yeah, reading a play
is, you know, enjoyable, the 

418
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,840
same way that reading an RPG 
that you haven't played and 

419
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,120
still be enjoyable. 
You know, there's so many 

420
00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:37,080
different elements about that 
kind of form of literature. 

421
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,920
And part of why I really 
resonate with RPGs is because it

422
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:44,720
is a similar lineage of, like, 
you know, a kind of literature 

423
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,560
that is always incomplete on its
own, you know, is enjoyable on 

424
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,440
its own, but like, it asks 
something of the reader, it 

425
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,960
invites participation. 
So I was running this and one of

426
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,040
the things that were my favorite
projects is I would often work 

427
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,120
with poets who had never written
a play before. 

428
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,440
There were people who had, like,
really strong command of 

429
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:09,440
language, you know, very strong 
voice and, like, choreography 

430
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,400
elements in their poetry. 
And I would be like, hey, I 

431
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,520
think you do a really great job 
writing a play. 

432
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,200
You know, if you have a concept,
let me know. 

433
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,600
And I can be your dramaturg. 
I can teach you dramatic 

434
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,440
structure, but I can't teach you
how to have a unique voice and a

435
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,240
unique vision. 
And so that was super fun. 

436
00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:30,640
And I love that collaboration. 
I love that back and forth. 

437
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,840
And I love that discovery of 
seeing like, oh, someone 

438
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,520
completely outside of theater. 
What did they bring to this And 

439
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:43,080
so I like passion project of 
mine was to do the same thing in

440
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,600
in RPGs. 
And so there was one day where I

441
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,480
was just kind of like moaning 
and groaning about how much it 

442
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,680
sucks to run a Kickstarter 
because it really is like it's 

443
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:57,000
it's I I will say that this one 
is a lot easier now, like being 

444
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,160
a handful of campaigns in and 
also a year into my OCD therapy,

445
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,000
I'm now properly medicated. 
It's not that everyone should be

446
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:11,960
taking Luvox if they want to run
a start a campaign, but the 

447
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,680
idea, like I was just kind of 
saying on lines like, you know, 

448
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,960
someone could just like invest 
in me too, you know, and I could

449
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:23,600
just make a cool game. 
And Riley Coyote from the 

450
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,920
Afterthought Committee been like
a Twitter mutual of mine for a 

451
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,360
while. 
They reached out through my DMS 

452
00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:31,160
and they're like, well, how much
are you talking? 

453
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:33,680
You know, like, what would that 
look like? 

454
00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:38,480
And I was like, hey, you know, I
have this idea that if I had 

455
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:44,160
like the money to fund a 
residency, I just want to take a

456
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,960
talented illustrator from 
outside of RP GS, a talented 

457
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:54,520
writer from outside of RP GS, 
and just finance them for, you 

458
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,920
know, 10 months of work where 
each, like, all they're required

459
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,040
to do is come up with five 
pages. 

460
00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:04,800
Basically just fund their 
morning pages and say, like, all

461
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,720
right, January, it's the comic 
artist turn. 

462
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,720
They're going to Draw Something 
and they're going to send it to 

463
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,200
the writer or he's going to 
write something, you know, So 

464
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,200
you always get a month off and 
you send it back and forth. 

465
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,960
And so after that committee was 
like, yeah, we're we would be 

466
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,440
willing to make an investment in
this help to kind of fund the 

467
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,640
like you know this initial 
process with the idea being that

468
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:31,600
like it will eventually result 
in a game, you know and we will 

469
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,360
be made whole. 
So we came into that agreement. 

470
00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:40,840
I reached out to Lynnae Esterta,
who is Eisner nominated 

471
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:46,680
award-winning comics artist. 
Did Stages of Rot and Frog in 

472
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,280
the Fall, both through PL. 
books. 

473
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:55,360
Really, really love her work, 
really like Mobius style, like 

474
00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:00,680
Wild out There world building. 
Reached out to Linnea, they were

475
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,440
on board. 
Reached out to Renee Gladman, 

476
00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:07,120
who has a series called The 
Ravikians that is just like 

477
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:15,360
phenomenal, really, like full 
speculative fiction that is just

478
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,800
so different from anything else 
you're going to read. 

479
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,920
Like, I was reading one of her 
novels, and there is like, this 

480
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,240
group, they're exploring this 
old abandoned church. 

481
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,600
And they encounter someone and 
they realize this person is 

482
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,240
speaking a different language 
from them. 

483
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,160
And that person, like, their 
language is puffs of air. 

484
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,480
And there's an entire Society of
these people that are living in 

485
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,320
the catacombs under this church.
And the protagonist just like, 

486
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,600
live with them for a while and 
like, tell you what it's like 

487
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,640
living in the society, trying to
learn their customs, trying to 

488
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,360
learn their language. 
And it's fascinating stuff. 

489
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,600
So at the end of a year of them 
generating work, we had all this

490
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,320
beautiful illustration, all this
fantastic writing, and both of 

491
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,120
them really complemented each 
other. 

492
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,640
We didn't require them, you 
know, to like, we didn't give 

493
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,800
any prompts. 
It's like you have to make this.

494
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,560
You have to make this. 
It was just kind of like, yeah, 

495
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,760
do what you want and be inspired
as much or as little by what's 

496
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:16,240
come before it. 
And by the end we had this like 

497
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:21,560
short story collection of 
chapters about this group of 

498
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:27,480
2348 people who were like a 
caravan of people traveling, 

499
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,960
escaping something, looking for 
something better and not really 

500
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,640
sure what either was, you know, 
But just like strange and 

501
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,240
magical obstacles that they were
encountering along the way. 

502
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,040
And also just the difficulties 
of playing with a group, like, 

503
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,880
you know, being part of a group 
that large. 

504
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,000
And Linnea was similarly making 
all this like kind of travel 

505
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:47,840
imagery. 
And so by the end of that 

506
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,760
process, it was handed off to me
to design A game around it. 

507
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:58,680
And I saw like, OK, this is 
travel, you know, if we want 

508
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,360
like the mechanic to also serve 
as a metaphor for the game, what

509
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,600
is something that is like a 
path? 

510
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,120
What is something that is like a
journey? 

511
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,960
And that's when dominoes came to
mind. 

512
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,320
I've been playing a lot of, you 
know, like traditional dominoes 

513
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,360
with my partner's family. 
I was like, OK, this is a path, 

514
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,280
you know, and also like a 28 set
of dominoes, like has some 

515
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,680
really interesting probability 
curves and it has two numbers on

516
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,080
each domino was like I can, I 
can work with this. 

517
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:31,400
And so through combining the 
art, the fiction and then also 

518
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:37,760
just kind of my own like design 
proclivities towards games that 

519
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,920
are, you know, like low, low, 
buy in, you know, I call it 

520
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,080
dollar store design, not 
requiring anyone to have play 

521
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,120
materials that they couldn't 
find at a dollar store. 

522
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,480
And it's like dominoes are 
pretty accessible, but we're 

523
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,520
also including cut out sheets of
dominoes for anyone who doesn't 

524
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,720
want to go buy some. 
And I designed that game and I 

525
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,840
took a year to play test it, 
mostly just locally around 

526
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,200
Pittsburgh, getting in front of 
people, figuring out how it 

527
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,600
felt, how it played. 
And the end result is the 

528
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,640
details of our escape. 
And it really is this RPG that 

529
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:17,320
is, you know, one part art book,
one part speculative fiction, 

530
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:22,120
one part rule book, because all 
of them get like equal levels of

531
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,000
showcase and interest in the 
like Zine itself. 

532
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:31,760
And it's also something that is 
unlike any other RPGs out there 

533
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,960
because, you know, it was 
devised by people outside of 

534
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:38,520
RPGs. 
We're just like these are the 

535
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:39,680
kind of stories we're interested
in. 

536
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:41,480
These are the kind of groups 
that we're interested in. 

537
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,760
And the challenge fell to me of 
like, OK, how do you make a game

538
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,920
that is Caravan style 
role-playing, where instead of 

539
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,640
playing individual characters, 
you are playing groups of 

540
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,800
hundreds and you know, and then 
what do the stakes look like for

541
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,560
those characters? 
If you're playing a group of 

542
00:31:55,560 --> 00:32:00,080
200, you know, like what does it
look like for their journey to 

543
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,960
end or to continue? 
And how can I mechanize those 

544
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,840
things using the numbers 
available on the dominoes? 

545
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,280
And so, yeah, that's what we've 
arrived at. 

546
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:14,480
And I needed to put out a game 
early this year, and Zing Quest 

547
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,440
is in February, and it's going 
to be approximately 30 to 50 

548
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:19,920
pages. 
So I was like, all right, 

549
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,560
saddling up for one more ride. 
There you go. 

550
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:25,960
Yeah, no, it's it's it's 
fascinating. 

551
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,160
Like I like I said before, the 
first time I heard about this 

552
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,080
project was when you were on the
RTFM podcast. 

553
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,360
Also go listen to that. 
That is better than us, but I 

554
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,920
will not. 
Listen to some other episodes 

555
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:44,040
before you listen to my episode,
because Aaron is like both of 

556
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,960
Aaron and Max have both said 
that my episode is not the worst

557
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,240
episode of the podcast. 
It is the worst game that the 

558
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:56,000
podcast has read. 
It's Akon agony something. 

559
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:02,400
It's like an English adaptation 
of a fan series of fantasy 

560
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,760
novels that has never been 
translated to English. 

561
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,800
It's only available in French. 
So, like, there's an interesting

562
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,240
conversation to be had about, 
like, adapting literature into 

563
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,160
RP GS. 
And what does it mean to play 

564
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,400
like The Lord of the Rings 
role-playing game if Lord of the

565
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,560
Rings was a series of books 
that, like, no one was able to 

566
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,240
read? 
But it's also just like a real 

567
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,880
shitty game and so a lot of it 
is US clowning on it and me, 

568
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:33,280
like dragging them through the 
like Disney theme park tour of 

569
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,080
this book as they are kicking 
and screaming, being like we 

570
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,280
want to go back to the hotel. 
Right. 

571
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:44,400
But it it's also an interesting 
link to or or there's 

572
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,120
interesting, I don't even know 
what the word I'm looking for. 

573
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,400
Like a parallel between that and
the game that you're talking 

574
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,720
about, where they took a 
literary work and tried to adapt

575
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,960
it into a game as opposed to 
what you have done. 

576
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:05,400
And that is to actually have an 
artist and a writer create and 

577
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:11,400
then you gamify it because it 
sounds like what they attempted 

578
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,840
to do to a point I guess with 
Agony or whatever it's called 

579
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,320
unsuccessfully. 
But the fact that you're not 

580
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,520
able to read the source material
makes it it's it's a lot harder 

581
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,480
to, I think understand the game 
mechanics because it's like is 

582
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,760
that there because it's in the 
book or is that there because 

583
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,120
this game mechanic sucks, you 
know, versus you know what 

584
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,320
you're working on now. 
So it was it was it was nice 

585
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,639
parallel to hear that episode 
specifically because of that 

586
00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:38,880
link intended to now see the 
project on Kickstarter. 

587
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,199
With that one question I had 
right off the bat. 

588
00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:46,920
Is there a reason that there's 
exactly 23148 people, or was 

589
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,159
that just a random number? 
It's just what came up in 

590
00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:53,639
Renee's writing. 
Like it showed up in her first 

591
00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:57,440
chapter that she did. 
And so I was like, OK, this is 

592
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,960
fascinating. 
And then each chapter like the 

593
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:06,240
that the group size is like 
mentioned over and over again. 

594
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:11,720
And so I was like, OK, this is a
key part part of it like I and I

595
00:35:11,720 --> 00:35:15,720
wanted to like honor that. 
So that is always the starting 

596
00:35:15,720 --> 00:35:19,400
point of the game and that is 
the like the group number that 

597
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,800
is mentioned in all of the 
fiction interspersed throughout 

598
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,760
the text. 
But as the game goes on, you 

599
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,000
know each leg of the journey you
are going to reach a door. 

600
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,320
You know whether a literal one 
or like a figurative one, like 

601
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,760
kind of a threshold to the next 
part of the journey. 

602
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:40,360
And depending on the tiles that 
are present in your path to get 

603
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:45,560
to that door, your group will 
either stick with the caravan or

604
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,760
they will settle in the 
surrounding area like their 

605
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:52,520
journey ends there. 
There's also like I see this as 

606
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,680
a low lethality game. 
I would rather it be a game 

607
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,640
about people escaping from 
something and finding what 

608
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,200
they're looking for early, 
rather than people fleeing 

609
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,480
something and you know, being 
cut down you know as a result. 

610
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:13,760
So the but like, so ultimately 
you have your groups that have 

611
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,400
like you know what they're 
searching for and once they you 

612
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,440
know find it like it is a 
mechanical element that says 

613
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,200
like no, you have no choice. 
Like they they are stopping 

614
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:24,240
here. 
They have found what they're 

615
00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:26,480
looking for here. 
How did they find what they were

616
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,440
looking for here. 
But then if you're playing a 

617
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:33,640
group of 600, that 600 is going 
to be subtracted from your 2000 

618
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,040
plus. 
And the game goes until either 

619
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:43,000
the group has dwindled and you 
know, the game decides for you 

620
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,000
what the final destination is. 
Or, you know, like so many small

621
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,080
indie games, it's like, play 
until you're done. 

622
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,480
You know, play until you get to 
a leg. 

623
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,760
That's like, OK, we know this, 
this, this phase of the game 

624
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,560
takes X minutes. 
You know, we have this much more

625
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,640
time before, like, we got to 
catch our bus. 

626
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:05,360
So let's play one more round and
like, this door is the door that

627
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,600
we will be ending at. 
But there are also mechanics for

628
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,040
like refilling your caravan 
between sessions if you want to 

629
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,320
play it like campaign style, so 
you can make it go as long or as

630
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,280
short as it wants. 
But yeah, like having that as 

631
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,880
something to latch onto as a 
unique design challenge was 

632
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,680
actually like a gift to me. 
Because I feel like there are so

633
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,760
many different ways that people 
have done ability scores or, you

634
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,240
know, different ways to kind of 
like spec your one special boy 

635
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:41,520
that there's a certain, like 
kind of release to saying, like,

636
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,720
yeah, you are not playing as 
individual as you were playing 

637
00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:50,640
as like a collective that is 
unified by, you know, certain 

638
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:56,000
beliefs or certain practices but
could just as easily, you know, 

639
00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:04,000
like diverge from each other. 
So you said dice are is the the 

640
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,960
kind of gamified aspect of this.
You also have Domino's. 

641
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,280
I'm sorry, I meant Domino's. 
Yeah, you have Domino's on it. 

642
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,440
22 parts of that. 
One, I would love to hear how 

643
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,760
that's kind of incorporated. 
But two, there's another person 

644
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,400
on top of the project or on the 
Project 2, there's you, Linnea, 

645
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,880
Renee. 
But also Hannah Cotto is doing 

646
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,280
the like paper Dice or what? 
What are they? 

647
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,520
I keep saying dice. 
I keep meaning Domino's, but I 

648
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,240
keep saying dice. 
Oh, it's it's fine. 

649
00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:36,000
I mean, that is like also, you 
know, like what we're talking 

650
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:40,000
about about the RPGs that are 
like adapted properties versus 

651
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:41,640
something built from the ground 
up. 

652
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:46,680
You know, you have a lot of 
people that are like, you know, 

653
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:51,800
wary of what they consider, like
D&D clones or something like 

654
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:53,480
that because like, oh, we'll 
just go to the source. 

655
00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:57,680
Or when someone makes like, you 
know, the Lord of the Rings 

656
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,680
game, they're like, oh, we're 
going to like run it in 

657
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,920
something that is very 
recognizable. 

658
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,840
Because, you know, when we talk 
about like RPG's, literature, 

659
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,520
you know, it's a lot of the same
conversations that happen of 

660
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,800
like, oh, is this movie 
adaptation of this book still 

661
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,960
like Capital C Cinema? 
You know, And I think one of the

662
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:22,000
ways that, like, this book is 
unique is that it is literature 

663
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,320
because it was, like, conceived 
as literature. 

664
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,320
It is not like adapted from 
anything else. 

665
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,480
It is not pulling from like what
other RPGs do you know, whether 

666
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,320
it is like, well an RPG has to 
have dice or an RPG has to have 

667
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,760
character sheets or these 
different kinds of things. 

668
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,040
It kind of was like all right 
what is our story? 

669
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:43,520
And then what does the story 
require? 

670
00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:47,240
But at the same time that can be
like a risky move to make. 

671
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:52,760
I I watched the movie Jupiter 
Ascending recently by the 

672
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,160
Wachowski sisters. 
So, like, came by The Matrix, 

673
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,760
got their blank check. 
They're like, OK, we want to 

674
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,280
make a space opera. 
We want to make like our own 

675
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,440
kind of Star Wars. 
And that film was a flop because

676
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,560
people are like, well, what is 
this adapted from? 

677
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,960
Like, wait, should I? 
Because, like, there was a lot 

678
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:12,840
of explaining that happened in 
the movie. 

679
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,000
I'm like, well, we're doing all 
of this world building. 

680
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,920
But also we have to like, 
explain all these different 

681
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:19,080
things. 
And like, yes, we're doing 

682
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:20,480
things different from these 
other films. 

683
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,920
But like, here's why. 
And sometimes that can be like. 

684
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,760
Intimidating for folks. 
So my hope with this project is,

685
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:32,920
you know, still to kind of like 
have my RPG sensibility of like 

686
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,560
I'm going to give you enough to 
hook you in but let you do a lot

687
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,280
of world building on your own. 
You know, the same way the beak,

688
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,160
feather and bone like gives you 
a map but doesn't tell you like 

689
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,880
where the city has to be 
situated or like time periods or

690
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,560
things like that. 
But I'm also really hopeful 

691
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:50,360
that, like the people who do 
take a risk on this, you know, 

692
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,440
the players who play it will, 
we'll also then go and read 

693
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,400
Renee's novels. 
We'll go and read Linnea's 

694
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,360
comics. 
And I really hope that fans of 

695
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:05,280
their comics and their novels, 
you know, in wanting to see more

696
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,280
of that, kind of maybe find 
their way into the hobby. 

697
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:14,960
But Hinokoto was a late edition,
in part because I knew that, 

698
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:19,000
like, OK, most people have dice,
not everyone has Domino's. 

699
00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:22,280
And a domino isn't so 
specialized that, like, you 

700
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:27,320
can't find it at, you know, your
local dollar store or Target or 

701
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,040
something like that. 
But they're also a lot of 

702
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:31,600
people. 
I've found at conventions that 

703
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,680
when they buy a game, like they 
want to go back to their hotel 

704
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,920
room and play it that night. 
And conventions have a lot of 

705
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:38,800
dice dealers. 
They don't have a lot of 

706
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,800
specialized domino boots. 
So I knew that I wanted to 

707
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:48,520
package in with the game, you 
know, an approximation of 

708
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:53,160
Domino's so that people could 
just like take it out of the 

709
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,280
case, you know, it's going to be
bagged the same way that BFB is 

710
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:01,400
and like dive right in And as 
kind of like a late design 

711
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:05,480
decision that came after the, 
you know, like extensive play 

712
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,080
testing and things like that. 
I didn't want to like, you know,

713
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,520
ask more of Linnea. 
They're like a busy person with 

714
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,080
their own career. 
But I knew that I wanted them to

715
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,400
be something special. 
And I have loved, you know, 

716
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:22,000
Kodo's work, you know, ever 
since, like, Neru came on the 

717
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:23,760
stand. 
And now, like, it's an entire 

718
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,560
suite of games. 
But also like their font design 

719
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,760
work, you know, their product 
design. 

720
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,600
They've been doing a lot of 
really cool stuff, like 

721
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,720
designing cards for an eventual 
card game and like, boxes and 

722
00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:37,520
components. 
Really, they're someone who 

723
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:42,440
understands that, like, you 
know, and something doesn't just

724
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,640
have to be like fancy, it also 
has to be functional, you know, 

725
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,760
It also has to be legible. 
So I'm thrilled to have been 

726
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,680
able to reach out to them and 
say, like, hey, I don't know, if

727
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:57,080
you do contract work, would you 
be interested in designing like 

728
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,600
a set of 28 dominoes just to be 
printed on like 2 heavy stock 

729
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,080
sheets so that people can cut 
them out with scissors? 

730
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:09,080
And they were like, I don't do a
lot of contract work, but that's

731
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:10,600
just because people haven't been
asking. 

732
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,600
So if you know, if other folks 
are like, you know, thrilled to 

733
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,040
see them on this project, like, 
yeah, they might be willing to 

734
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,880
work on your project too. 
There's someone that I think has

735
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:25,520
a really great eye and talent 
for, you know, not just game 

736
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:29,840
design, but also thinking about 
how people interact with games. 

737
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:35,160
So they've been a late addition.
And as far as how those dominoes

738
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,160
work and the game itself, they 
do pretty much everything. 

739
00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:43,320
There's some moments of like you
kind of standard session zero 

740
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:48,520
type questions of like, OK, what
is it like, what is the place of

741
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:52,760
origin that everyone is leaving?
You know, what is, what is it 

742
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,160
that they're fleeing, you know? 
And there are also those set, 

743
00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:00,160
those kind of like X card type 
conversations of like, OK, this 

744
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,320
is a caravan of people fleeing 
from something. 

745
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,920
You know, you could tell a 
serious story that is about 

746
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,280
refugees or you could tell a 
story that is more like, all 

747
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,920
right, this, you know, people 
just want something exciting. 

748
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,120
You know, maybe they were bored 
or, you know, a lot of people 

749
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,560
kind of use it to tell like 
climate stories of like, all 

750
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,080
right, you know, all the 
resources in this area have been

751
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:23,640
used up. 
They're going to go somewhere 

752
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,400
else. 
The game starts and you have 

753
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:31,280
your caravan of 2000 strong and 
everyone draws tiles from the 

754
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:36,360
bone yard, which is the actual 
thing people call the like stack

755
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:38,120
of dominoes in the center of the
table. 

756
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:46,840
But say you get a tile that is 
a, you know, a 2626 domino. 

757
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:52,080
You can either take one of the 
numbers shown on the on the 

758
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:57,120
domino, the two or the six, 
multiply it times 100 and that 

759
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,520
is the size of your group. 
So you can play a group of 200 

760
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,920
or you can play a group of 600. 
Or you could add this is for 

761
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,280
like a lot of this is the kind 
of like. 

762
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,680
My general suggestion is if you 
want to play a shorter game, you

763
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,200
know multiply them by 100. 
If you want to play a longer 

764
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,560
game, you can also add those two
numbers together. 268. 

765
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,600
Multiply it by 10. 
You're playing a group is of 80,

766
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:20,520
so it's going to be a smaller 
group. 

767
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,960
But also because numbers are 
going to be subtracted in more 

768
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,800
like 100 chunks, you know it's 
going to be a longer game. 

769
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,040
You know, as people fall off 
from the caravan, once you have 

770
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,080
your group size, you're going to
decide like, all right, what are

771
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:34,960
they leaving? 
What are they searching for? 

772
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,640
What is the thing that unifies 
them? 

773
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,200
You know, maybe they are like a 
Cobblers Guild or something like

774
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,920
that, that there's just like no 
more leather for them to make 

775
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,840
shoes in their region anymore. 
And so they're seeking somewhere

776
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,720
new where they're going to be 
able to like practice their 

777
00:45:49,720 --> 00:45:53,720
trade. 
And then as you go, everyone 

778
00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:59,560
also gets a hand of dominoes and
there is going to be a pair of 

779
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,800
keywords and pause me if you 
have any questions. 

780
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,920
I know I'm kind of like just 
like injecting mechanics into 

781
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,080
your brain right now. 
So you have your group, each 

782
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,360
start of a leg of the journey. 
You're going to pick a pair of 

783
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,680
words. 
So maybe it's like one I've play

784
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:22,200
tested with is strange and 
serene, or like lush and 

785
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,320
fragile. 
One of those words is always 

786
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,840
going to apply to the first 
number in a domino. 

787
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,560
One of them is always going to 
apply for the to the second. 

788
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:37,520
So that same 26 tile that we 
had, the two would be how 

789
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:41,960
strange it is. 
So not very strange the six 

790
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,400
would be how serene it is. 
It's like, OK, very serene. 

791
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,560
And so you talk about like, all 
right, what is it that your 

792
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:54,840
particular group is passing by 
in this location that is like, 

793
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:59,400
you know, normal serene, How do 
they interact with it? 

794
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:05,760
Then the next tile you are going
to play a tile that is the first

795
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,080
number of it is either the same 
as the ending number. 

796
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,400
So like traditional Domino's 
type stuff, so ends in a six. 

797
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:14,960
You're either going to need to 
start with a six or you can play

798
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:19,320
a domino that is 1 number higher
or one number lower. 

799
00:47:20,240 --> 00:47:22,360
So there wouldn't be something 
higher than a six, but let's say

800
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:23,880
there's a 7. 
Let's say you're playing with 

801
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:28,800
the extended set of dominoes. 
If you play one higher, then 

802
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,600
that means your course has 
veered towards something good. 

803
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:35,400
And you have to tell us like 
what is the thing that is good 

804
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:40,360
enough that you, the caravan 
like, changes its course to go 

805
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:43,280
towards it. 
And if you play one under, so 

806
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,520
let's say we played A5, you're 
going to go, you're going to 

807
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,080
change your course to avoid 
something bad, some kind of 

808
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,520
threat, some kind of obstacle, 
something like that. 

809
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:56,960
But because of the way that the 
dominoes are played in sequence 

810
00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,720
and the fact that the words 
attached to the dominoes are 

811
00:47:59,720 --> 00:48:02,520
fixed, you're always going to 
have this up, down. 

812
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:10,200
So maybe that first tile was 
like too serene, sick or yeah or

813
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:14,560
well, too serene would actually 
be not very serene or no, too 

814
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,200
strange. 
It was strange and serene, too 

815
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:20,640
strange, 6 Serene. 
So the next one, maybe it's a 

816
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:25,600
six and then a five. 
So you're going to be suddenly 

817
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:30,320
in a environment that is very 
strange because those sixes line

818
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,880
up and that's your first word. 
And then maybe you still have 

819
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:35,920
the five. 
So like, maybe it's very still 

820
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:39,880
very serene, but things are 
getting stranger. 

821
00:48:40,240 --> 00:48:44,360
And maybe you're also in a 
situation where like, OK, maybe 

822
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,360
it's a five that you're playing,
so it's getting, it's still 

823
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:49,880
serene, it's getting much 
stranger. 

824
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,880
And also you are diverting your 
path to avoid something bad. 

825
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,440
What is it you know? 
And how does your group, you 

826
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:00,360
know, interact with this? 
How does, how do they perceive, 

827
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:02,320
like, how do they travel through
this? 

828
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:05,640
So you keep playing tiles in 
that way and it results in this 

829
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:11,000
like very fun, kind of like 
subtly shifting journey that you

830
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:15,120
go on as you kind of a bounce 
back and forth between the 

831
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:17,520
different aspects of this leg of
the journey. 

832
00:49:17,720 --> 00:49:21,480
For the ones that were like lush
but fragile, it was going 

833
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,320
constantly back and forth 
between these like, OK, we're in

834
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,120
this like jungle where it's like
you where everything is, you 

835
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,400
know, vivid and like, you know, 
the air is thick. 

836
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:34,200
And then maybe the next tile, 
it's like, OK, you know, we are 

837
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:36,880
still in that environment, but 
now we have come across 

838
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:41,640
something that is like extremely
fragile, you know, what is that 

839
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,920
like? 
Is it like, you know, like a 

840
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,480
just a collection of flowers? 
Are there like crystals Now, you

841
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:55,080
know, is it like eggs of some 
kind of creature And you keep 

842
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,680
playing until you get to a 
player who doesn't have a valid 

843
00:49:57,680 --> 00:49:59,440
tile to play. 
You know, they don't have 

844
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,680
something that lines up or is 1 
higher or one lower. 

845
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:07,040
And at that point, you have 
reached the door, you know, and 

846
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,000
you as a group, you know, you're
going to have to figure out how 

847
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,440
to get through the door, pulling
from the different kinds of 

848
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:14,120
things that you've seen along 
your journey. 

849
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,600
So it's kind of an opportunity 
to kind of decide like, OK, what

850
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,280
what were the, like most 
interesting things that we 

851
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,360
encountered on this leg that we 
want to make sure that we 

852
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:24,840
remember, You know, if we were 
taking notes on this for a 

853
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:26,960
campaign, like what is the good 
stuff? 

854
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,920
You use those to get through the
door and then let's go back to 

855
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,480
your two six tile. 
That adds up to 8. 

856
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:38,360
If there any other tiles in your
leg of the journey that add up 

857
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,760
to 8. 
So maybe it's a three five, 

858
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,280
maybe it's a you know, there are
some probabilities that are 

859
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,360
higher or lower than others. 
double s are always going to be,

860
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:49,320
you know, near impossible to 
find. 

861
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:56,040
But once you look at the path 
you're going to, if it's your 

862
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,240
turn, you pluck it out of the 
path and you say, like, OK, my 

863
00:50:59,240 --> 00:51:00,440
group found what it's looking 
for. 

864
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,760
Subtract their numbers from the 
overall caravan. 

865
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:07,720
And I'm going to tell you, you 
know, what it is that we found 

866
00:51:07,720 --> 00:51:09,800
here. 
That was enough for us to, like,

867
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:11,960
decide like, yes, this is where 
we're going to start our new 

868
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:13,640
life. 
And the game continues. 

869
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,800
Go through the door. 
You either maintain the groups 

870
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,000
that you've been playing or you 
draw new groups. 

871
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,880
You come up with new keywords 
and you describe like, all 

872
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:23,440
right, what are the other things
they encounter? 

873
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:28,760
So it is very much in the ilk of
like you know my style of game, 

874
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:32,920
you know the beak, feather and 
bone, you know, single unique 

875
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:35,440
power game that's like, all 
right, this is a fun standalone 

876
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:40,520
experience, but also could be 
like a good session 0 for world 

877
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:46,440
building. 
And it's also just a game that 

878
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:52,120
like, I don't know, it 
encourages people to like come 

879
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:55,000
out of their shells and like 
engage in that world building 

880
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,680
process in bite size pieces. 
You know, because it can be so 

881
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:02,520
hard sometimes, like to put 
someone on the spot and say like

882
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:06,600
OK, now it's your turn to like 
come up with a faction and make 

883
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:08,680
sure they're interesting and 
make sure they're this and make 

884
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:10,720
sure they're that and you know, 
make sure that they relate to 

885
00:52:10,720 --> 00:52:13,840
this thing or that thing. 
When really like at any point in

886
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:18,040
this game, you're only having to
describe like one thing at a 

887
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:23,120
time and it's always going to be
influenced by like 2 numbers and

888
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:27,320
your individual group. 
So hopefully that makes sense. 

889
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:32,960
It's one of those games that, 
like, I'm getting better about, 

890
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:38,480
you know, summarizing it in a 
succinct way, but that I have 

891
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,280
really loved seeing how it comes
together on the table. 

892
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,680
Yeah, there it's the wheels are 
turning. 

893
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:47,760
I it sounds really, really 
interesting. 

894
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:53,040
So when you do, you play, I'm 
gonna say play the dominoes, but

895
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,520
like, do you actually lay them 
out like end to end as if you're

896
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:56,280
doing dominoes? 
So. 

897
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:00,080
Yeah, so when I talk about like 
building a sequence, you are 

898
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,520
making like an actual physical 
path across your table. 

899
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:10,560
Which I mean, I can only assume 
that that concept came into your

900
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,480
mind when you're designing this,
since you're actually like on a 

901
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,440
journey with people who are 
diverting to take another path, 

902
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:19,560
and you're actually laying out 
the path that they're actually 

903
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:21,560
like. 
They're taking some up with the 

904
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:25,720
dominoes as you go. 
That is such a nice, clean, 

905
00:53:25,720 --> 00:53:32,440
elegant feel to the mechanics 
like it feels like it belongs, 

906
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,080
you know. 
So I I really love that. 

907
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:37,440
I love and games have like that 
level of elegance where like the

908
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,520
the mechanics especially if you 
have something physical like 

909
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:43,960
like die stacks in some things 
or things like that where you 

910
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,680
feel that like what you're doing
mechanically really fits 

911
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,280
narratively. 
So the idea of actually laying a

912
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:52,240
path out with your dominoes as 
you're going on this path, you 

913
00:53:52,240 --> 00:53:54,680
know, with the it's that's 
fantastic. 

914
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:58,280
I absolutely love that. 
There's so many. 

915
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,320
If I can go on something real 
quick related to that, I 

916
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:07,120
actually, when I teach game 
design, I call that mechanic as 

917
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:09,640
metaphor. 
You know, the idea being that 

918
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:13,360
like whatever mechanic uses the 
game, you know is also like 

919
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:15,200
there is. 
It doesn't necessarily always 

920
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:19,640
have to be, but by and large 
there is like a metaphor to any 

921
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:21,880
kind of mechanic in a game, even
rolling AD 20. 

922
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:24,040
You know the meta. 
It is a metaphor for like the 

923
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:27,200
randomness of the universe, you 
know, things like that. 

924
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:33,960
But I would generally teach 
inside out design and outside in

925
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:38,000
design. 
Inside out design is the idea 

926
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:41,400
that you have a mechanic that 
you are really interested in or 

927
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:47,400
like Oh my gosh, I really love, 
you know, let's take Dread as an

928
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:49,480
example. 
The idea being like, I really 

929
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:53,920
love Jenga, I wonder if there is
a game that I could design 

930
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:57,520
around Jenga, you know, and the 
metaphor there being is like, 

931
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:01,680
OK, So what kind of feelings 
does this mechanic evoke? 

932
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:04,400
Like, when I'm playing Jenga, 
like, are there's tension here? 

933
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:07,040
You know, there's precarity. 
There's always a risk of things 

934
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:10,680
falling over, Maybe a story 
where like, you know, things 

935
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:14,560
could go awful at any moment 
where there is a certain level 

936
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:18,120
of, like, you know, dread 
involved. 

937
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:21,480
And then you're kind of like, 
OK, if we're starting from the 

938
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:25,120
inside with a mechanic, then 
let's go out and find 

939
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:29,000
appropriate genre trappings to 
kind of put this around this. 

940
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,400
They really, like, kind of shake
hands with each other. 

941
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,280
The opposite side of the coin 
would be outside in design, 

942
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,960
where it's like, Oh my gosh, I 
love slasher flicks. 

943
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,680
You know, I love horror movies. 
I really want to design A 

944
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:45,920
role-playing game that, like, 
feels the same way that I feel 

945
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:50,080
when I watch a horror film. 
And so you can always kind of go

946
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:53,680
the route of like, all right, 
well, I'm going to like use kind

947
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:56,760
of a pretty standard mechanic 
with like D 20s and I'm, you 

948
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:00,480
know, the flavor, the feeling is
going to come from, you know, 

949
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,320
other elements like maybe it is 
the flavor text in the game 

950
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:05,280
itself. 
Maybe it's the visual design of 

951
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:09,800
something that is like, you 
know, very like stylish and like

952
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:14,400
vibes forward like a more Borg. 
Or, you know, you can always say

953
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:20,600
like, well, if I don't have the 
budget for art or if I I'm not 

954
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:24,320
as confident in my writing to 
kind of evoke this, how can I 

955
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:27,720
have a mechanic that kind of 
like helps get the player 

956
00:56:27,720 --> 00:56:30,720
halfway there and maybe through 
play testing, through iterating,

957
00:56:30,720 --> 00:56:34,640
through design conversations, 
maybe then you get to Jenga. 

958
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:37,200
If you're like, Oh my gosh, 
Jenga is something that would 

959
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:39,240
work for this. 
A lot of people have Jenga sets.

960
00:56:39,240 --> 00:56:41,840
They can find them, you know, 
that kind of thing. 

961
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:47,160
So when I design A game, usually
it's from one of those two 

962
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:50,240
paths. 
Either a mechanic comes to me or

963
00:56:50,240 --> 00:56:52,240
I'm like, Oh my gosh, it would 
be so cool to come up with a 

964
00:56:52,240 --> 00:56:56,000
game where, like, the 
randomization mechanic is how 

965
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:57,840
long it takes her a piece of ice
to melt. 

966
00:56:58,400 --> 00:56:59,800
What kind of stories can I tell 
that? 

967
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:01,880
Like, what would be good ice 
stories, winter stories, et 

968
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:05,440
cetera. 
And sometimes I'm just like, God

969
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,800
damn, I I can't get enough of 
one Piece. 

970
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,920
I need to make a shonen style 
game or and that's where like 

971
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:15,880
single unique power came from. 
I was like, OK, how can I take 

972
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:18,920
all these tropes that I love in 
these and kind of mechanize them

973
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:21,600
into a way to, like, make your 
own cast of just like, weird 

974
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:29,240
guys? 
So this design for you then I 

975
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:30,920
guess. 
Was this an inside out and 

976
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:32,680
outside Indesign when you chose 
Domino's? 

977
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:37,320
Definitely inside out. 
You know, or sorry, outside in. 

978
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:42,840
So in that I started with the 
material generated by Lynnae and

979
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:48,120
Renee of like, OK, this is the 
style, this is the substance. 

980
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:53,280
You know of like when I put this
book together, you know, I'm 

981
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:56,520
going to be including all of 
these things and how do I make 

982
00:57:56,520 --> 00:58:01,040
sure that the game mechanics 
like not only compliment them 

983
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:04,680
but connect them to each other. 
You know, that kind of emphasize

984
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:07,280
the fact that like all three of 
these things are like equal 

985
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:13,040
parts of the recipe. 
And like I said, I I think the 

986
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,080
dominoes are such a fantastic 
choice for exactly the the 

987
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:18,120
metaphor that it has like 
actually putting the path 

988
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:23,040
together also when you're. 
Talking I mean there's so this 

989
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:31,400
is such a fun kind of system and
as you said you know the as if 

990
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:35,280
you start with 2348, is that 
what it is, 2084? 

991
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:41,800
Yeah 4848 breaking off a smaller
and bigger groups and things 

992
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:43,320
like that. 
But like my mind immediately 

993
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:45,800
started going to man, there's so
many things there's so many ways

994
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:47,120
you can hack something like this
too. 

995
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:50,600
I mean obviously you have the 
content generated from the the 

996
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:52,560
writer and the artists that are 
already there. 

997
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:56,240
But I mean you could do you have
a Co-op version of this where 

998
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:59,240
like you have you're going off 
in groups and I'm going off in 

999
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:01,880
groups and I'll see you in a 
week and then come back together

1000
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:03,160
and you tell me what happened 
with your. 

1001
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:06,240
Chunk of the game out of this of
like who's going for the 

1002
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:13,480
fastest. 
And it is like very shoot, I I 

1003
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:15,080
had a point that I wanted to 
make. 

1004
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:19,360
Maybe it'll it'll come to me 
later. 

1005
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:26,080
But yeah, in terms of like 
people taking the game and 

1006
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:30,600
hacking it and running with it, 
you know, I think sometimes it's

1007
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:36,120
nice to kind of have these games
that just like serve as a spark 

1008
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:40,160
for other people's creativity, 
you know, because like I am, I 

1009
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:43,200
love whenever someone makes a 
game that is inspired by beat, 

1010
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:47,080
feather and bone, you know? 
Or I love whenever, like anyone 

1011
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:50,560
kind of takes, like that's why I
put an SRD out for it. 

1012
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:55,640
You know. 
Sometimes it really does take 

1013
00:59:55,880 --> 01:00:01,200
like someone else just kind of 
like turning on the light bulb. 

1014
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:03,800
You know, like oh this is 
something we can use or it's 

1015
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:06,480
like I hadn't thought of 
Domino's or how many people are 

1016
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:09,680
like I never would have thought 
of Jenga if not for dread. 

1017
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:12,920
And then you wind up with games 
like Star Crossed, you know, 

1018
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:16,960
that are like, OK, I this, you 
know, mechanic can also be this 

1019
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:20,360
metaphor. 
And so I'm very hopeful that 

1020
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:24,440
when people are like, oh, all 
right, Domino's, that people 

1021
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:26,720
take this concept and run with 
it. 

1022
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:30,240
But also that people start to 
think about like, what are other

1023
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:32,840
things you can do with Domino's?
Like you can stand them up so 

1024
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:36,600
they topple down. 
And another exercise I do in my 

1025
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:40,640
class is I'll do like an Iron 
Chef style exercise where I'll 

1026
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:44,480
just hand out identical pieces 
of a material to everyone in the

1027
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:46,120
class. 
Recently I've done it with 

1028
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:50,360
cardboard coasters, and we just 
spend like 10 minutes being 

1029
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:52,600
like, hey, let's get a 
whiteboard out and talk about 

1030
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:54,960
all the different ways we can 
manipulate this object. 

1031
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:57,320
You know, you can like, it's 
cardboard. 

1032
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:58,720
So you could fold in half if you
want to. 

1033
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:01,040
You could flip it like a coin. 
You could spin it on the table. 

1034
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:03,360
You could write something on one
end and conceal it. 

1035
01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:06,120
You can put in your pocket. 
You could get it wet so that 

1036
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:08,120
it's like, you know, different 
parts. 

1037
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:10,280
You can let it dry. 
You could light it on fire. 

1038
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:15,880
It can be really kind of useful 
to think about like, all right, 

1039
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:18,240
what are things that people 
might have on hand? 

1040
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:21,280
What are things that are common 
to the scene, and how can I make

1041
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:23,480
them serve my purpose? 
And I remember the thing that I 

1042
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:30,320
wanted to talk about before of 
you saying like the 2438 or 348,

1043
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:33,400
I swear I'll have it memorized 
by the end of this campaign. 

1044
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:41,400
The fact that Renee included 
that number in each of the 

1045
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:45,200
chapters that for this project, 
what that signaled to me is that

1046
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:47,480
this is a game where numbers are
important. 

1047
01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:50,360
Numbers are something I should 
be paying attention to. 

1048
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:53,960
Because there's also, I could 
have gone a route that I was 

1049
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:56,400
like, OK, there are no numbers 
in this game. 

1050
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:58,200
There are no dice. 
There are no dominoes. 

1051
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:01,040
You know this is more of like a 
Microscope style game where it's

1052
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:04,480
just no cards all the way down. 
You know, where you make a path 

1053
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:06,640
that are just the things that 
you write on note cards. 

1054
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:09,160
Or maybe it was a drawing game 
where it's like, all right, 

1055
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:12,920
everyone draws different 
elements of the path, but even 

1056
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:16,520
small things like the fact that 
like, OK, numbers are something 

1057
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:19,920
that is going to be present in 
the fiction they should be 

1058
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:23,480
present in the mechanics as 
well, was something that was 

1059
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:27,960
like a big clue for me as a 
designer of like, how can I make

1060
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:31,960
sure that like the mechanics and
the flavor of this kind of go 

1061
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:36,040
hand in hand? 
It's really, it's really 

1062
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:38,440
interesting the the entire 
concept from beginning to end 

1063
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:39,560
too. 
And I will say one thing about 

1064
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:43,320
Domino's, if you don't use the 
extended set, it is 2D6 if you 

1065
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:45,960
look at both sides of a dice and
that is a mechanic that a lot of

1066
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:49,560
people in the same use is 2D6. 
So that exists out there. 

1067
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:56,320
But again, just being able to 
pull three people, three, you 

1068
01:02:56,320 --> 01:03:01,160
know, creatives together in in 
like separate, but, you know, 

1069
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:06,520
creative spaces, writing, arts 
and design, which is the core of

1070
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:10,440
RPGs as well, but from 
completely different areas. 

1071
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:12,720
And like you said, two people 
that are outside of RPG space. 

1072
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:15,160
And to make an RPG like this is 
such a cool thing. 

1073
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:19,840
I really hope that it encourages
more people, not only, like you 

1074
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,760
said, fans of theirs, to come 
into the RPG space, but to also 

1075
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:29,080
extend into other not RPG spaces
for RPG, you know, inspiration 

1076
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:32,000
or anything. 
Because it's when I heard about 

1077
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:34,320
it, like I said on the RTFM 
show, it sounded so interesting 

1078
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:37,360
and seeing it now, like I'm just
really like excited to actually 

1079
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:40,040
get in hand and actually be able
to engage with this. 

1080
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:42,920
It is on Kitchen. 
Right now, yeah. 

1081
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:46,200
The designers listening to this 
podcast, I hope this also 

1082
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:51,120
encourages you to kind of like 
reach out to, you know, like 

1083
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:55,160
different kinds of people, You 
know, reach out to folks who, 

1084
01:03:55,160 --> 01:04:00,480
you know, maybe haven't worked 
in RP GS before because just 

1085
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:03,400
because they haven't doesn't 
mean they wouldn't want to, you 

1086
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:06,840
know? 
And I'm a strong believer that 

1087
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:10,400
our hobby is only enriched by 
welcoming people in whether it's

1088
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:12,760
different perspectives, 
different styles, different 

1089
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:16,200
things like that. 
And as a creative, like, we've 

1090
01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:20,480
all got to like, feed ourselves.
We've all got to, you know, pay 

1091
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:24,400
rent. 
Like I increased the price of my

1092
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:28,600
games by like 1 or $2.00 this 
year because, like, the cost of 

1093
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:31,400
my health care went up. 
Because inflation is real. 

1094
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:35,160
And there are a lot of artists 
that are like, oh, you know, I 

1095
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:37,600
work in comics or I work in 
cartoons. 

1096
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:42,600
And that is like where I have 
gotten a reputation, it's where 

1097
01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:45,040
I've gotten connections. 
It's where I built momentum. 

1098
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:50,320
But that doesn't mean that they 
also aren't trying to, like, do 

1099
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:54,240
the hard work of making a living
off their art and sometimes 

1100
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:57,840
reaching out to someone and 
saying, like, hey, I know you're

1101
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:02,400
very busy. 
I have a project that would need

1102
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:07,200
like 10 pieces of illustration 
and I really love your work. 

1103
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:10,880
If I can afford you, I would 
love to hire you to work on 

1104
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:12,640
this. 
Hopefully it's something that's 

1105
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:16,880
approachable and maybe if this 
game does well, or maybe if you 

1106
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:21,560
enjoy this process, then it will
also be a portfolio piece for 

1107
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:24,160
you. 
You know, like the 30 page game 

1108
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:27,040
can help these people get work 
on a 300 page game. 

1109
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:29,880
So don't think that your game is
too small. 

1110
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:33,400
Don't think that you are too 
small, you know, to work with 

1111
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:36,200
the kind of artists that you 
love and admire. 

1112
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:40,320
Because for a lot of them, like 
one, if they aren't interested, 

1113
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:43,560
or if it would be, you know, 
cost more than you can afford, 

1114
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:46,840
they're going to tell you. 
And that's like that 

1115
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:50,000
conversation is not the scariest
thing in the world. 

1116
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:53,320
The scariest thing in the world 
is like over promising something

1117
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:58,240
that you can't pay for. 
And like if they say yes, then 

1118
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:00,040
like who knows what that could 
lead to. 

1119
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:03,680
Who knows what kind of doors 
that it could open for them and 

1120
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:06,240
not just for you. 
So it is not a like. 

1121
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:10,520
It is not a selfish thing to 
look at someone whose work you 

1122
01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:13,640
love, admire and say like, I 
would love to work with you. 

1123
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:18,440
Not only that though, everybody 
in every industry and every 

1124
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:25,080
scene, you know, you get, you 
get the brain of that thing. 

1125
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:26,800
Like we have, we have game 
brain. 

1126
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:29,600
We've seen all the mechanics. 
Like I can tell you all the 

1127
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:31,520
probabilities of all the two D6 
roles. 

1128
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:36,480
And sometimes when you reach out
to somebody and that doesn't 

1129
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:41,040
have that brain, they are 
capable of looking at the bigger

1130
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:42,240
picture. 
Because sometimes when you know 

1131
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:45,600
too much, it really narrows your
view a little bit to the things 

1132
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:48,720
that you know and makes it more 
difficult to to see the things 

1133
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:50,640
that you don't know because you 
know all the things right, 

1134
01:06:50,640 --> 01:06:53,320
Except you don't. 
So being able to bring people in

1135
01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:57,120
from other fields and other 
especially creative interests 

1136
01:06:57,120 --> 01:07:01,520
and stuff with fresh eyes is the
really cool thing to have in all

1137
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:04,640
creative spaces as well. 
So it's again really cool to 

1138
01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:09,200
bring on not one but two people 
that aren't in the space onto a 

1139
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:12,240
project like this and then still
be able to gamify in such an 

1140
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:15,640
interesting way. 
But this is on Kickstarter right

1141
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:17,360
now. 
It is actively funding for Zene 

1142
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:19,320
Quest. 
It's got 18 days left to go. 

1143
01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:22,080
It is less than $400.00 from 
funding. 

1144
01:07:22,560 --> 01:07:27,600
Oh really? 
That's great. 9617 dollars, 621 

1145
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:30,920
backers. 
I mean, because it's extremely, 

1146
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:33,680
it's extremely reasonably 
priced. 

1147
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:38,880
Which as far as the tears go. 
So when people go to Kickstarter

1148
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:42,200
and back this as they should, 
because it looks fantastic. 

1149
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:45,680
I was back in #1, just around 
there, but. 

1150
01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:49,320
You sniped it like I 
instantaneously have to like 

1151
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:52,880
include something special in 
Here is for that hot number one 

1152
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:54,120
spot. 
There we go. 

1153
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:57,360
I don't have a folder, although 
my Kickstarter #1 spots or 

1154
01:07:57,360 --> 01:08:02,240
anything, but what what can they
get from Kickstarter? 

1155
01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:05,760
Like what are the tiers from 
Kickstarter that they can they 

1156
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:09,040
can back at Yeah. 
So the first thing you're going 

1157
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:14,440
to want to do is go to bit dot 
LY slash details of that's 

1158
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:21,240
DETAILSOF that's going to take 
you to the campaign and I 

1159
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:24,760
believe in keeping it simple. 
You know they're really only two

1160
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:29,560
reward tiers. 
You can get the digital PDF 

1161
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:31,960
version of the game for 10 
bucks. 

1162
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:35,880
You can get the physical print 
version of the game for 20 bucks

1163
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:40,920
the first week of the campaign. 
We're offering an early backer 

1164
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:44,600
special of $15 for the physical 
version. 

1165
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:46,279
That also gets you the digital 
stuff. 

1166
01:08:46,479 --> 01:08:49,760
So if you're watching this live,
you have an opportunity to do 

1167
01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:53,960
that before it ends at noon on 
Monday, February 12th. 

1168
01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:58,960
If you were listening to the 
YouTube or podcast or YouTube or

1169
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:03,800
things like that might be done. 
But I promise you I this is very

1170
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:05,399
affordable for what we're 
offering. 

1171
01:09:05,960 --> 01:09:09,080
And yeah, I also just like I 
don't believe in stretch goals. 

1172
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:14,680
I think that, you know, there 
are plenty of times that I have 

1173
01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:18,439
received stretch goals from 
creators that I've been very 

1174
01:09:18,439 --> 01:09:23,640
grateful for their generosity. 
But as a creator, I think that 

1175
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:26,080
like, I do not want this to 
balloon out of control. 

1176
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:30,880
I do not want to gatekeep any of
the things that I want to do 

1177
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:33,840
with this game beyond a certain 
dollar amount. 

1178
01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:38,279
So I've set a goal that funds 
everything that I want this to 

1179
01:09:38,279 --> 01:09:40,040
be. 
That is enough to bring on 

1180
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:43,319
collaborators like Hinokoto. 
That is enough to like produce 

1181
01:09:43,319 --> 01:09:46,600
the game as like something that 
is full color that comes with 

1182
01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:51,640
these nice stock package, domino
cut out sheets. 

1183
01:09:53,120 --> 01:10:00,120
So you are going to be getting, 
you know everything for just 20 

1184
01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:06,280
bucks or if you are someone who 
plays online, you know we are 

1185
01:10:06,280 --> 01:10:09,360
going to be including digital 
files of the dominoes as well. 

1186
01:10:09,480 --> 01:10:13,440
There's going to be guidance 
inside the book for online play 

1187
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:19,800
as well as single player play. 
It's the probability and like 

1188
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:23,600
hand sizes and things like that 
for the game map out best for 

1189
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:26,040
two to seven players. 
But there's also going to be 

1190
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:29,080
some accommodations for if you 
want to like really go wild and 

1191
01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:34,920
play it with like 8 or more. 
And yeah, I think that like, if 

1192
01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:40,920
there is kind of 1 silver lining
to the Pandemic, it would be 

1193
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:45,640
that like a lot more designers 
are and should be thinking about

1194
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:49,320
like the accessibility of their 
games from like a remote 

1195
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:53,000
standpoint. 
Because people were playing 

1196
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:57,200
remote games before, you know, 
The Pandemic had everyone 

1197
01:10:57,200 --> 01:11:00,600
working from home, you know. 
And people also had different 

1198
01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:05,720
accessibility needs that you 
know, required, you know, like 

1199
01:11:05,720 --> 01:11:09,000
things like remote play, things 
like digital play spaces, or, 

1200
01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:11,680
you know, even folks who just 
kind of prefer preferred it. 

1201
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:18,800
You know, there are the reason 
why I have, like, dexterity free

1202
01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:22,040
options for games like Hounds is
because realizing that even 

1203
01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:25,560
small things like manipulating 
pieces, you know, can be 

1204
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:27,440
something that is inaccessible 
for people. 

1205
01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:30,840
So if you're the kind of person 
who likes to play with a group 

1206
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:35,720
remotely, or even just prefers 
your gaming experiences mediated

1207
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:39,800
through a digital interface, 
there's going to be material and

1208
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:42,600
guidance in there for you too. 
Fantastic. 

1209
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:43,960
Yeah. 
I mean, we're, you know we talk 

1210
01:11:43,960 --> 01:11:44,840
about it all the time on the 
show. 

1211
01:11:45,440 --> 01:11:48,920
Hyperlinks is like the bare 
minimum you can do to help 

1212
01:11:48,920 --> 01:11:51,760
people play digitally. 
It's a lot easier to just click 

1213
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:54,160
a button than to scroll for 60 
pages. 

1214
01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:57,560
So. 
But on top of that, E pubs and 

1215
01:11:57,560 --> 01:12:00,040
making them, making sure that 
things are accessible for screen

1216
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:02,720
readers and things like that. 
It's just a really nice thing to

1217
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:05,200
have. 
And at the end of the day, we're

1218
01:12:05,200 --> 01:12:08,840
gonna get farther and farther 
from other human beings. 

1219
01:12:08,840 --> 01:12:13,880
The further our our species 
exists, we're going to get 

1220
01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:15,480
deeper and deeper into these 
screens. 

1221
01:12:15,480 --> 01:12:20,040
So having things be more 
accessible like that is just a 

1222
01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:22,720
it's a good thing to have. 
And the pandemic, just as you 

1223
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:26,000
said, really just accelerated 
that process of us being in 

1224
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:27,320
front of these screens a little 
bit more. 

1225
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:29,720
So I mean, I haven't played a 
physical game with another human

1226
01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:31,000
being since the pandemic 
started. 

1227
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:36,000
So definitely in those digital 
spaces, yeah, One day we'll see 

1228
01:12:36,120 --> 01:12:38,920
if I ever, ever, ever go back to
Pennsylvania again for any 

1229
01:12:38,920 --> 01:12:39,640
reason. 
We'll see. 

1230
01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:40,880
Yeah. 
Hey, it's not Philly. 

1231
01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:44,320
We've got like, I don't know. 
You know what, Bridges? 

1232
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:46,200
That's true. 
It is true. 

1233
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:49,680
I went to Pittsburgh once. 
The only time I ever went and my

1234
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:51,600
car broke down in Pittsburgh. 
I'm gonna stuck there for half a

1235
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:52,440
day. 
But. 

1236
01:12:52,440 --> 01:12:54,120
No, it was nice. 
I wanted to stay. 

1237
01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:56,120
There you go, it's cuz it 
wasn't. 

1238
01:12:56,120 --> 01:12:58,760
Philadelphia. 
Yeah, one more day. 

1239
01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:05,360
But I mean it's extremely 
affordable, it's a $10,000 goal.

1240
01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:09,320
You have over 620 backers which 
is approaching the number that 

1241
01:13:09,320 --> 01:13:11,320
you had for the possible worlds 
box set. 

1242
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:13,960
So at 10 and $20 that's an 
extremely good deal. 

1243
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:17,240
And I think that the I can only 
imagine it's what like media 

1244
01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:19,840
mail, I think I remember seeing 
that the the US shipping at 

1245
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:22,720
least is is extremely affordable
project. 

1246
01:13:22,720 --> 01:13:26,360
Yeah, it's round advantage is 
like 4 bucks. 

1247
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:32,440
Canada is right around 10 and 
then we use the simple export 

1248
01:13:32,440 --> 01:13:35,120
option through pirate ship, 
which has been a godsend. 

1249
01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:38,280
They have like kind of 
forwarding houses and things 

1250
01:13:38,280 --> 01:13:40,320
like that where they will batch 
ship things. 

1251
01:13:40,720 --> 01:13:44,080
So even international stuff is 
going to be in the ballpark of 

1252
01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:50,840
like 12 to $14.00, which, hey, I
would love if it was less 

1253
01:13:50,840 --> 01:13:55,120
expensive to ship anything. 
But that's why I vote, you know,

1254
01:13:55,520 --> 01:14:01,360
because I want to try and also 
live in a society that, like you

1255
01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:05,440
know, cares about its fossil 
system and doesn't price gouge 

1256
01:14:05,440 --> 01:14:08,160
people with, you know, various 
hidden fees. 

1257
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:11,280
That's true. 
I, I, I, I encourage everybody 

1258
01:14:11,280 --> 01:14:15,120
out there that mails things on 
any type of regular basis to get

1259
01:14:15,120 --> 01:14:19,760
a pirate ship account please. 
But but yeah, like I said, the 

1260
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:22,360
project sounds fantastic. 
It's funding for 18 more days. 

1261
01:14:22,680 --> 01:14:23,920
I'll try to have this up 
tomorrow. 

1262
01:14:23,920 --> 01:14:26,440
No promises, but if you are 
listening to this, like Teller 

1263
01:14:26,440 --> 01:14:31,280
said, you probably missed out on
that $15 deal, but $20 is an 

1264
01:14:31,280 --> 01:14:33,720
insane deal for the quality that
this is. 

1265
01:14:34,320 --> 01:14:37,680
I definitely am extremely 
excited for this project, as I 

1266
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:39,520
said numerous times since I 
heard about it. 

1267
01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:44,760
I hope this encourages more 
projects like this reaching out 

1268
01:14:44,760 --> 01:14:49,560
into different spaces. 
And not only this, but the 

1269
01:14:49,640 --> 01:14:51,840
other. 
I mean, I have most of the other

1270
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:54,760
stuff that you've done for, but 
for those people that don't have

1271
01:14:55,360 --> 01:14:59,080
the things you have done, where 
can people find those games and 

1272
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:00,280
where this will be in the 
future? 

1273
01:15:01,160 --> 01:15:06,960
Your one stop shop is going to 
be possible worldsgames.com 

1274
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:13,080
because who knows what the 
social media landscape will be 

1275
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:16,000
in the coming weeks, months or 
years. 

1276
01:15:16,240 --> 01:15:19,920
But I sure as hell own that URL 
so I'm going to make sure you 

1277
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:22,240
can find me. 
And yeah, there are links to our

1278
01:15:22,240 --> 01:15:27,680
web store on there, a couple of 
you know, some bio stuff and 

1279
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:30,000
portfolio things that I need to 
update. 

1280
01:15:30,600 --> 01:15:34,000
But the most important thing 
there is yeah, there's also my 

1281
01:15:34,000 --> 01:15:37,000
emails on there. 
There's a contact form page as 

1282
01:15:37,000 --> 01:15:39,640
well. 
Please feel free to reach out. 

1283
01:15:39,720 --> 01:15:45,040
And something I tell a lot of my
students is that if someone's 

1284
01:15:45,040 --> 01:15:49,440
e-mail is publicly available on 
their website, they are open to 

1285
01:15:49,440 --> 01:15:52,120
hearing from you. 
They might not always say yes, 

1286
01:15:52,160 --> 01:15:57,360
they might not always respond in
a timely manner, but if they are

1287
01:15:57,360 --> 01:16:01,080
putting their e-mail out there, 
that means you are welcome to 

1288
01:16:01,080 --> 01:16:03,240
e-mail them. 
So please do not feel like 

1289
01:16:03,240 --> 01:16:06,640
you're inconveniencing me. 
If there's any kind of questions

1290
01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:11,680
follow up on this campaign or 
even just on any of the other 

1291
01:16:11,680 --> 01:16:15,680
variety of like things that I've
talked about, it's been really 

1292
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:18,080
cool. 
Like as people have learned that

1293
01:16:18,240 --> 01:16:21,120
I worked in theater folks who 
are like, hey, so like your 

1294
01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:23,080
games are nice and things, but 
like do you have any advice for 

1295
01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:27,000
someone living in a small town 
trying to like find ways to do 

1296
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:29,160
theater things and like, well, I
do. 

1297
01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:33,440
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
It's funny I I this pop up in my

1298
01:16:33,440 --> 01:16:36,840
head like a while ago and then 
disappeared. 

1299
01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:41,000
But I I took I took a literature
class in college just a random 

1300
01:16:41,000 --> 01:16:44,600
credit and we just read plays 
all the time and I mean yeah, 

1301
01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:46,720
who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf 
Became my favorite play because 

1302
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:49,480
of that class. 
So it's it's fun to replace. 

1303
01:16:49,480 --> 01:16:50,920
They're enjoyable. 
I. 

1304
01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:54,960
Had I I well, I have a bone to 
pick with you and I agree. 

1305
01:16:55,040 --> 01:16:57,240
Who's afraid of Virginia Woolf? 
Phenomenal play. 

1306
01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:02,200
I have worked very briefly, 
limited capacity, mostly 

1307
01:17:02,200 --> 01:17:06,800
digital, with Edward Albee 
before he passed away. 

1308
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:12,040
And I will say that he is a 
genius, but he is kind of a 

1309
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:15,360
curmudgeon. 
And the title of that play is 

1310
01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:17,760
not Who's Afraid of Virginia 
Woolf. 

1311
01:17:18,280 --> 01:17:23,080
It is legally Edward Albees 
Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf 

1312
01:17:23,680 --> 01:17:28,640
because he wanted to make sure 
anytime the play was talked 

1313
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:33,320
about or listed on a program, 
that his name was real big and 

1314
01:17:33,320 --> 01:17:36,000
like, yes, he deserves it. 
He's one. 

1315
01:17:36,120 --> 01:17:40,960
He was like one of our greatest 
American playwrights, but also 

1316
01:17:40,960 --> 01:17:44,760
like my guy, you gotta, you 
gotta calm down something. 

1317
01:17:45,200 --> 01:17:47,760
Yeah, that by Edward Albee at 
the end was not enough. 

1318
01:17:47,840 --> 01:17:49,320
Had to be in the front, had to 
be back. 

1319
01:17:49,440 --> 01:17:52,520
Well, we were laying out 
programs because if we were 

1320
01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:56,000
doing one of his one acts in 
like a series of one acts. 

1321
01:17:56,160 --> 01:18:00,320
And so there were plays by two 
other playwrights in that 

1322
01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:05,080
program. 
And according to like you know 

1323
01:18:05,120 --> 01:18:09,200
the contract, we had to list it 
as Edward Albee's Who's Afraid 

1324
01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:11,560
of Virginia Woolf. 
And so for the other plays in 

1325
01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:14,280
that series, they're like, well,
it's going to stick out if we 

1326
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:20,960
don't also list all of their 
plays as like, you know, Maria 

1327
01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:23,960
Fornas's Mud and you know this, 
that and the other thing I'm 

1328
01:18:23,960 --> 01:18:28,440
like, all right, so those are 
the little behind the, that's 

1329
01:18:28,440 --> 01:18:31,040
what you've been sticking around
to the end of the show for those

1330
01:18:31,200 --> 01:18:36,960
exactly that theatrical program 
anecdotes that Edward Albee 

1331
01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:40,680
chat. 
Yeah, but yeah, back this 

1332
01:18:40,680 --> 01:18:42,720
project, it looks fantastic. 
It sounds fantastic. 

1333
01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:46,600
Get all the stuff from possible 
Worlds games because. 

1334
01:18:46,760 --> 01:18:49,000
Thank you. 
It is because really, like, 

1335
01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:51,440
there's there's no end to them 
really. 

1336
01:18:51,440 --> 01:18:53,320
Like once you pop, you just 
can't stop. 

1337
01:18:53,920 --> 01:18:57,320
There's just an endless. 
Possibility in litigation with 

1338
01:18:57,320 --> 01:19:01,320
the Pringles man. 
Just some real brand confusion 

1339
01:19:01,320 --> 01:19:03,960
there. 
Yeah, but grab all the stuff at 

1340
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:06,880
possibleworldsgames.com, all the
links to the Kickstarter and 

1341
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:10,320
everything will be in wherever 
you're watching or listening to 

1342
01:19:10,320 --> 01:19:12,120
this down below. 
And you know our links. 

1343
01:19:12,200 --> 01:19:14,240
In your head and in your heart, 
you know. 

1344
01:19:14,240 --> 01:19:16,600
Just like, exactly where 
everything needs to be. 

1345
01:19:17,160 --> 01:19:18,760
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

1346
01:19:19,200 --> 01:19:20,760
Thank you so much again, Tyler, 
for coming on. 

1347
01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:23,960
Really, really appreciate it. 
That is gonna be our episode for

1348
01:19:23,960 --> 01:19:27,160
today. 
Back this project, back all the 

1349
01:19:27,160 --> 01:19:29,000
rest of the stuff. 
Support Andy creators. 

1350
01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:29,960
Everyone. 
Have a wonderful day. 

1351
01:19:30,240 --> 01:19:31,480
Bye. 
Bye.