Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll Podcast.
My name is Ryan. And I've been recently re
sleeved so I'm not sure who I am yet.
Wow I wish I had recently been re sleeved.
This sleeve sucks. I am Max Lander.
I have made a bunch of role-playing games, chiefly
among them being Himbos of Myth and Metal, my personal favorite
Frame 352 and also my my new my new refound Love Hand Baskets.
Hand baskets, yes. Happening.
Yeah, I think, I think was it, was it Himbo's last time you
were on when we were at Yeah, Himbo's.
Yeah, Himbo's is such a good game in so many different ways.
I bring it up all the time. Isn't it though?
It is. I'm very humble about.
It it really is like on top it really is a good one
instantaneous tangent. Welcome to the weekly scroll
podcast. I tell people all the time, I'm
like, if you're playing AD 20 game and you don't use like the,
the kind of it's not mixed success, but like kind of like
the that, that threshold that's in himbos, you're not using D
20s, right? Because it's just such a good
way to to really make it a lot easier to GM.
Yeah. Single handedly saving the D20
which I did not think would be my job in the world, but here we
are I. Believe we're we we are all in
the same 2D sixes is best catwalk on our D20 roll under
but 2D6 for the win. I love AD 24 wonder, you know.
I'm inside just said Himbos is my go to upbeat fantasy game.
Yes, I. Yeah, I feel like I've had an
extremely chaotic couple years of my life, and that has
coincided with releasing some games.
And then every once in a while I go back and read them and
realize like, it's been four months and I haven't touched
something like Himbos or like hand baskets.
And I go back and I'm like, wait, I'm good at this.
I should play these games which make a super humble, really.
But you know what? If if you make good shit, you
should tell people you make good shit, you know?
I also think there's something to like running away from it for
a while. Like when you're deep in it,
you're like, oh, this is shit. And then you go away for six
months and you come back and you're like, Oh no, I had some
cool ideas. Like you can look at it and feel
a little bit more confident about where it lives.
And I feel like I've I've done that with most of my games now
because I've been in a bit of a lull for releasing things.
I'm like, Oh no, these were these were fun.
Well, I don't feel like that about the stuff I've made so
far. I go back and I'm I haven't
released anything, but I have a bunch of Google Docs of games
and I'm like, I go back and I'm like, oh, this is bad.
I should redo this. This is an awful idea.
I'm an idiot. I have a lot of unfinished.
I'm only saying that about the things that I've put out into
the world. I have many work in progress
documents that will stay that way forever for that reason.
But but the ones that I release out into the world, I feel like
I spend I'm I'm also, I believe in play testing and it does a
lot. The difference between a work in
progress dock and a release dock for me is usually at least a few
rounds of play testing and that like makes a really big
difference on the final thing. So I think that.
Yeah, why did why did you say that like it was a dirty word?
I feel like, I don't know, I feel like it's the Internet has
taught me that like I shouldn't think that everything should be
play tested. I do.
I do think that in my heart at heart, yeah, because Aaron is
anti play testing. Aaron releases like beautiful
poetic things that can also just be read and enjoyed and can be
played and enjoyed. And I just like don't have that
confidence and I only I have the confidence after it's out.
But part of it is just that, like the amount of times I play
tested something and then like that didn't do what I wanted it
to do. I want I want it to do something
different. And I like to find that out
before I put it out into the world.
Or sometimes you play test and you're like, it did do what I
wanted it to do. But for me that I don't have any
kind of confidence that what I'm putting out will is will
communicate what I want it to unless I actually like have that
feedback. Yeah, I'm super pro play
testing, like super like you should play test like a million
times before you put it out. It all comes down to OK, we'll
know. That's a 5 hour conversation I'm
going to stay away from really quick.
I'll just say I think Death of the Author is terrible and I
disagree with it wholeheartedly. And maybe one day I'll write A
blog about it. But I feel like if again, as
someone who has a series of Google dot games that I've never
seen the light of day, I think if you're putting something out,
it should at least attempt to be what you want it to be, I guess
is my my thought. And if you don't even know what
it is, then what is it? I guess.
And, and again, very different schools of thought.
I think across a lot of TTRPG space it's still such a young in
like hobby industry. One of those things field work
field with my new word for all games.
I also think that like I do the one of the things that I really
enjoy is all the system stuff and the system stuff for me,
like if I was writing something for an established system or
when I have released things that are like an adventure, I don't
necessarily feel like I need to play test it.
If I'm releasing something for a different rule system, I don't
necessarily feel like I need to play test it.
But a lot of what I like to do is like make new things or smash
a bunch of things together in different ways, and then I don't
know if they're going to work so.
That makes a lot of sense. I have a question, do you think
of tabletop games as an art form?
How dare you, how dare you bring my biggest troll with with
without them being here. Oh no, they they made sure to
say it in chat and and open that can of worms.
I mean, it's a can of worms because I am an art teacher and
I have a lot of feelings about like problems with capital a
art, but also the value of capital a art and how creating
something for artistic value is different than creating
something for commercial value. And so the answer is they can
be, but they aren't by default because in order to make art,
you have to choose to make art. And that is a different process
and has different values and metrics and goals than making
something commercially. I feel like it's a fine answer.
I'm so unbothered by the answer I'm surprised.
Because I have just honed it to hit directly, to hit directly
back at Aaron's. Aaron has I have been.
I've forged this opinion in the fires of discussing Aaron.
Aaron. I think that went over well and
I'm sure no one will leave any comments anywhere about that.
So no, they won't. No, not enough people that that
create discourse listen to us. But I this is actually a topic
that I think in my head all the time and like, it's one of those
things I talk to Hunter and I talk to people all the time.
I want to blog really bad because I have thoughts, but I
also hate people who think their thoughts are important enough to
blog about. So it's like, although I love
reading blogs, you know what I mean?
It's one of those things where but but like is is TRPG art is
something that I think about all the time and I personally don't
think it is. I think it's, I think teach art.
I think books can be art, but I don't think teach RPG design is
art. I think it's craft.
And if anyone thinks that that's like a step down, I think
they're disrespecting Craft, is my thought.
On it, see, my actual contentious thought is that I do
think in order to make art, you kind of have to develop your
craft. And a lot of people don't like
that 'cause they think of it as gatekeeping.
And I don't mean it in a gatekeeping way.
I think anybody can be can develop skills for art.
It's just that it involves time. People call anything gatekeeping
at this point. Anything.
Yeah. I mean like.
Expectation for the growth of like of effort put in to do a
thing is like is gatekeeping, right?
It's like AI is so great. It really levels the playing
field for all of. Us I was going to say a lot of
the times I get that thrown at me in response to like my anti
AI opinions where people are like, well, that's gatekeeping
these tools. And I'm like, no, it's not
accessibility to not teach people how to control the tools
they use. There's usually this jump that
is like, well, if we make programming, 'cause I also teach
programming. If we make programming, really
if we cut programming out, then it's more accessible.
And I'm like, actually accessibility is about teaching
people programming because it's about, you know, redistributing
power. It's the whole thing.
But but yeah, I do feel like I think craft is like a part of
art and I think that game design across all games fields and
mediums like can B that. But I do think that it is wholly
different than making something to sell it.
And usually I think if you're making something to sell it,
you're probably sacrificing the some of the artistic value of
it. Yeah, I so a for those who don't
know, Max does everything. A lot of things.
So yeah, a lot of things, but I, so I started college as an art
major and then don't go to college and be an art major if
you want to do art because they will make sure to beat it out of
you. But I in a, in a, in a slightly
different like kind of lens from like just capitalism as far as
art. I definitely feel, and this is
in my personal opinion, let's use qualifiers so that people
understand that this is my opinion.
I'm not declaring discourse on them.
Your pitchforks ready, y'all. Right.
I just, I just, I've always thought there's a big difference
between fine art and craft. And like craft to me is
something that's like for commercial value easily, like
reproducible and and fine art is generally for the sake of the
art itself. And to me, TRPG design and like
you said, like when it's for making money and stuff like
that, there's becomes a difference to what you're doing.
So there is like a difference in the field for like people that
do it as a hobby versus people that try to make a living from
it and stuff like that. And I do think there becomes a,
a line that gets crossed. Not saying that's a good or bad
thing when you decide something needs to make money versus like
having its own inherent value, But then I mean, you can also
get into the conversation. Are GM's game designers because
they homebrew a rule? The answer is no, But you know,
it's it's it's, it's one of those things where it's like,
neither is bad. Like game designing takes.
I know people that make amazing games that are terrible gyms.
I don't know people that are amazing gyms that couldn't write
a game if they wanted to. It's like they're like you can't
look down on like like if you look at like an architect and
like the the head person at like a construction site.
I don't know why the name is escaping me.
Foreman. Like both are incredibly
important and a building would not get made without either of
them. But a foreman is not an
architect and an architect is not a foreman.
So there's AII to me personally, I think a lot of the issues that
people bring up when it happens is people like say, thinking
that what they're doing is lesser because it's not the
title that they want it to be versus just being proud of the
skills that they have for doing what they do.
I don't know that. I mean, it's all, it's all
capitalism, right? And a lot of people who would
argue that there is more inherent value in anyone job
than any other job or anyone's skill than any other skill is
largely probably doing that through a capitalistic lens,
even if it's like internalized classism or not, right?
Like a lot of it is internalized classism and you're just like,
no, like I don't in Canada, it's it.
I think this is different than the States, but in Canada we
have universities and colleges and they do different things.
And colleges are traditionally like work skills, like you are
going to get a job at the end of college.
And universities generally about like knowledge and the Academy
and developing whatever, some kind of field of research.
And historically that means that people that have always thought
of colleges as lesser and now everybody who goes to college
gets a good job and nobody who goes to university gets a good
job. So there's this like, yeah, you
know who's getting good jobs? Welders, welders be getting
those good jobs. And all of us, all of us
academics, except for me, I lucked out, but that's a weird.
I didn't, I also didn't plan on this.
But yeah. So I think it's a weird thing
where I just think they're like totally different.
Funnily enough, just to throw it back at Aaron, I think what
Aaron does is largely an art practice.
So this is, but I don't know if they claim that.
So I'm just going to throw that. And part of that is also ties
into the need for play testing or not.
If you're making art games, you don't need to play test.
You could, the game could just be about reading it.
Like this is so much of that. It could be about personal
expression. Like it could just have
different goals that aren't the experience of play.
And that's totally legit. But.
Yeah, yeah, again, it's it's an interesting conversation when
especially cuz you, you, you and Aaron and tell me if I'm
completely wrong trend a little bit more story game than I think
me and Hunter do. And I think that that opening up
of the narrative and narrative tools and I wanna say that kind
of like art artsier side of it. I think definitely trends that
way a little bit more than someone who's just like no D20,
like, you know, difficulty class, like all this stuff.
It's very much more of like textbook than art book a lot of
times. So it's it's it's interesting.
But like even even within the field, you know, there's
definitely people that see themselves as, you know, artists
for like the way that they write and the things that they do.
And it is difficult because I think there's a big difference
between artists and artisans. And again, I think a lot of the
reason that people think one is better than the other is, is the
internal classes. When you say, but to me, I think
most teach RPG people that are I mean like an artisan is someone
who has honed their craft to the point that they can express
artistic like artistic like have artistic expression within their
craft. And that to me is like what
teacher bejesus, it's a craft. And some people have reached the
peak, the point where they can express themselves artistically
through that craft. So.
Which is funny 'cause that's the lens through which I think most
of the games that make the most money really fail, right?
Like that's the like, I would say that like through an artisan
lens, this is again, hot take. Whatever my opinion through an
artisan lens, games like Dungeons Dragons fail miserably.
They do not have a concise statement.
There is no like there is no tool set elegance on display.
There's not because it's like 700 million people trying to
smash 700 things and largely then basing it to an IP, right?
Like it's not. Whereas I think about some
people and this will come up later, so I'll just say this
now, but like the game that we're talking about is part of
like a dual game where both Aaron and I were obsessed with a
mechanic that Adam Vass made. And I feel like Adam Vass is the
person that I think of kind of is like peak for me at least
like one of the, the peak both 'cause I when I think about like
mechanical, but also like artistic and writing wise,
there's just like all these and then visual arts, like there's
just all these things that are coming together so beautifully
in Adam's games. And part of that I attribute to,
and this may not be how Adam feels about it, but part of what
I attribute that to is just like the consistent reengagement.
Like it's just a constant cycle of like outputting things that
sometimes don't hit as hard, but like just making it and
releasing it and making it and releasing it and trying
different things and all like just, I don't know, there's a,
there is a real dedication to craft as like a priority in
their life. And I feel like that really
shows. Yeah, this is classically an
Adam Vas Stan podcast. So pretty much, pretty much all.
Yeah, great things are said about Adam on this.
Who could? Like on a regular basis?
Like Adam Vas. If you anyone that plays HRPG is
like especially in in the indie scene at all and doesn't know
Adam Vas, just know that it's your favorite game designer
who's favorite game designer and like, how dare you don't know
them, because I feel the exact same way.
Adam, Adam. And the way that they write is
one of like the very early things that that got me into the
indie scene. And when I read some of their
stuff and you just went, oh, this is very different than what
I thought it could be. And they definitely the way that
they write. I mean, the first time I read
Necronautilus like I've never been the same, you know what I
mean? I got to play Necronautilus for
the first time this spring at a con up here in Toronto.
And it was so. And I'd read it and been like, I
love this game so much and I never had an opportunity to play
it and finally got an opportunity to play it.
And it plays how you want it to. And you're like, well, this is
just screw you, screw you. It's too good.
Once again, it's so good. Yeah, it's so good.
I mean, and then Soul Burner too, and I mean for those people
that do want like a little bit more of like a grounded in the
it's, it's like a Necronaldis Markberg mashup.
I don't know if you've read Soul Burner, but like it, it gives
the little bit of crunch and makes it a little bit.
I mean, you're literally like a like a like a wandering ball of
like ash and burnt memories. You know what I mean?
Like, it's, it's so good. But yeah, I mean, that's exactly
what we're talking about. Like taking something to a level
that you, you, you when when your memories are your entire
existence, but you're living in like the like the, you know,
universe of death. Like, I don't know, chick.
It's it's it's it's depth that I I only wish that I could
reproduce in in at all. I mean, I've never put out
anything. I need to just write one word on
a page and publish it on edge and be like, look, I've done
something now I can do other things now.
Yeah, that's the craft development.
So Speaking of Adam and everything, so we do have this
book in our hands. This is part of the low rise
Futures Kickstarter. We already did Aaron's half and
that was enemy of brightly Fantastic game.
We're talking about handbaskets in a little bit here, so just
talk to us about handbaskets. I know that I don't know
anything. You you tell me.
Never heard of the game, never read it.
Handbaskets is both a tribute to a specific Adam Bass mechanic,
but also it actually started as I was gonna make a series of
adventures mini games for Cyber Metal 2012, which is a world
champ game Co game that I think is phenomenal, probably one of
my top top five games of all time.
And and I was like, I want to make something for this and it
started there. And some of the world building
of Cyber metal 2012 is like there's it's like a future
world. There's like a bunch of cyber
stuff, but then there's also like demons and witches and all.
And I was like, great, I love all of this.
I wanna smash that all together and make.
And I was watching a lot of Alice in Borderlands at the
time, which is such a fun show, and was thinking a lot about
like PvP play and how sometimes that's hard to do.
And I was like, OK, I'm gonna try and make like PvP blood
sport like bad. Reality TV show game and so
started making these like little mini games and then realized
that I was halfway to making a totally distinct game from Cyber
Metal 2012 and just went with it.
And so pulled in some other mechanics from other games that
I really enjoy like Kismet, and decided to make it standalone,
but tried to keep it so that if you want to play it with Cyber
Metal 2012, you can or or you can use the internal system.
And I've talked about this on my podcast a bunch.
But my dream game that will never exist, but may be hacked
together for a bunch of other things in the world is something
that uses a bunch of different mini games or where you're like,
you have this like thin overarching game and then you
play like different games as you move through different sessions.
And so part of this was also like, what if I make a game
where you might just drop it into something else for a
session and then leave it alone? So it's not super crunchy.
It has some crunch, it has some crunch, but it's not like it's
not as light as some of the other games I've made.
But but is I think Hiccup able in a single session largely also
because one of the central concedes of the game, both when
designing it and communicated in the book is like you are meant
to take this and rip it apart and break it and like translate
it and interpret it in a way that feels fun.
And if that goes against whatever, like lean into just
breaking it. Lean into you being a central
part of the way that this plays. And so it has rules.
But then it also tells you to ignore them, should you so
choose. And is definitely meant to be
broken, yeah. Well, I mean, even even within
the, the, I mean, obviously we're gonna read through it here
in a little bit and, and talk about it.
But even within the like lore of the world and stuff like the
overlays break and crack and glitch and stuff, like the world
you're seeing breaks so and, and you can hack in the game and
stuff. So it it makes sense and all all
of that makes sense within the Lord too, for the rules to also
feed into it. I mean, that's what makes it a
good game when it all, you know, kind of gives you the same vibes
and and same intentions as you go through.
I feel like sometimes people need to be told, like, need to
be given a justification for breaking something.
And so I wanted to both like say that out loud with the words in
the book, but also be like as if you can try and structure it
like we're in like in the, you know, cyberpunk or cyber genre
of games. We're in this like the history
and RPGs is to make it really crunchy and really specific.
As if those things aren't going to get really confusing.
Like once we have a a virtual overlay on the world or
whatever, or in a world where everything is kind of virtually
overlaid, as if that wouldn't kind of break our psyches a
little. Like as if that wouldn't feel
dreamlike or fake or like all of this stuff would get really
confusing. Unless I kind of just wanted to
integrate that excuse right in there so that you can kind of
justify whatever you want. Or like the GM could justify
whatever they want, but also so that players don't feel like
they're limited in their suggestions, which I feel like
sometimes happens in games like, you know, Cyberpunk or whatever,
where you have a specific tool to do a specific thing.
And then that kind of implies that that's how you do that
thing. You're like, well, I don't, I
wanted to get away from that. Just be really, really broken.
That's that's a topic that V and Hunter talk about a bunch.
And especially because I listen to you, I listen to RTFM podcast
all the time. And for those that don't listen,
go listen to the RTFM podcast. Max and Aaron are much, much
smarter than us and the episodes that you that that you and Aaron
do like we, we very much talk about mechanics a lot.
And I feel like you lot talk about a lot more of like the
other parts of the games, like the, the themes and the
intentions and, and things like that.
Tell me if I'm I'm off base with that.
And it's so interesting to hear more of like the theory talking
with TTRPG as opposed to just being like, this is a nice roll.
This is ADR. This is this isn't.
And it's really fun to to listen.
I've said this. I think I've said this to both
the at this point, it's like, I feel like I've heard you guys
way more than you're ever gonna hear me.
And I feel like I know like so many of like the thoughts and
opinions y'all have, even though we've never talked about it.
And it's a very weird like Internet thing to to have that
experience. Yes, our our weird pseudo.
It's not like we don't have a parasocial relationship because
we do actually talk to one another.
But it is, it does feel almost there.
I feel like somebody do that. Yeah, yeah, I forget also all
the things that I say. And then people will be like,
remember when you said this? And I'll be like, absolutely
not. I do not.
I believe that probably I said it, but I do not remember saying
it. But yeah, I, I think part of
that is that like, I think I am a little bit more system
interested. I've said this and Aaron, I
think, I think this isn't contentious to Aaron, but I'm a
little bit more like system interested than Aaron is.
And so I think I sometimes spend too much time going deep into
like mechanical concerns. And I think part of that is also
because I make video games and that's very mechanical often.
But but I am very envious of all of the kind of more, I don't
know, like mushy, poetic emotional vibes that happen
around because I feel like I'm less good at that.
Like it feels like a skill that I'm significantly less good at
and try to get better at all the time.
But yeah, I'm, I guess this is a story game.
I'm, I'm, I'm backtracking. I'm like, is this like, like are
we more story game focused? Is this I guess I I'm like all
games or story games? Yeah.
Well, no. Well, yes, I mean, we're talking
about like capital S, lowercase S maybe.
And then it comes to story games because.
No, there's. Plenty of.
LSR people that would tell you. Not all games are story games.
You can have a story in a game that is not a story game.
But this is definitely a more story driven game for sure.
Well, it's interesting because I think about.
This like, oh, sorry, I just think about this as one of my
more mechanical games then, which doesn't mean it's not a
story game. It's just for me leaning more
towards like mechanical necessity than than some other
games where like you can take himbos and make your little
characters and then you could ignore everything and just talk
it out. You know, like you can't talk
this one out. You do need some kind of like
record keeping. Yeah.
This is what I definitely want to play because I felt the same
way as I was reading it. When you go through the the
rules portion basically like it does, there is definitely a lean
into like the mechanics, you know, but then as soon as you
get to the actual handbaskets there it is very like.
I felt like I had this like flip in my thinking when I when I
started reading them because I'm like this is very this is so
broad. This is so open, like it is
literally like there's no maps, there's no 'cause I imagine in a
different version of this game from someone else like this, it
would be like 50 pages longer and there would be like
directions and maps and like all the rest of this stuff.
And then you, you flip to the game and then you flip the next
page under a different game. And it's just like, Oh, there's
a lot of a lot of stuff open to interpretation from both the GM
and the players in here. And it it's, it's interesting
because a game that's, you know, relatively light can become
heavy for those that aren't used to that sort of play.
And that's one of the things I always think the story games
and, and rules like games in general.
I think, I don't remember what we were reviewing when you, when
we talked about this hunter, but sometimes like a game that's
like super light can actually be like extraordinarily heavy for
people that aren't used to that because they don't have all of
that scaffolding for like, but, but how do I do this?
There's no rule specifically for this.
And I'm like, you don't need the rule.
That's fine. Like you can just do whatever
you want. You know, which is in and of
itself is also something that's like can be contentious because
I'm like, that's where I split from.
That's where we have a PBTA split.
I think at least me and Aaron do especially and are thinking of
like the level of scaffolding and stuff that that happens.
But that's, that's an interesting conversation I'd
love to sit down and have with you guys at some point is
scaffolding and games and how it differs from like OSR and PBTA
and story games and everything. I have no idea where I started
that sentence. I feel like part of my goal with
Handbaskets was to just like let myself design what I would think
of as like a 201 game. And I think, 'cause I think that
like, I think a lot of games are 201 games.
A lot of games are not introductions to the hobby,
right? Like and I but they don't own
that. I think a lot of OSR IS2O one
games and they don't really own that.
Like not a super great way to introduce 'cause you are relying
on so much community knowledge, so much like oral history,
blogs, experience, whatever for people to actually like navigate
your game. And sometimes like I think
Himbos is kind of an OK one O 1 game.
I do not think necessarily that Handbaskets is a one O 1 game
and and I kind of intentionally let myself live there a little
bit, which is a little bit of like trusting people to break
the game, right? I think.
I think even just that framing implies that you would kind of
know how games work. And a lot of it for me was also
about where I find myself wanting games to sit, which is
not ever a 400 page rule book, but is also not nothing like I
do. I like tactical combat right?
Like I've I've just got necro molds.
Game's great, but. So bad.
It's so good. I'm so glad that I was
financially irresponsible when that Kickstarter was running.
That's why I didn't get it because I was like, no, I've got
to save money right now. Yeah, I've I've.
I've done it 3. Times.
Yeah, yeah, it's so good. I love that stuff and I think
that if like I think that, you know, sometimes I think that
that lives in a board game specifically and that they excel
in board game realms better. Like that kind of tactical play,
I think really wants a lot of specific rules.
But I did I do like some rules. I just want the rules to
meaningfully change the play and I'm not convinced that a lot of
games do that. This is this is my PBT argument.
We can have that conversation a whole different time, but I've
never like rolled APBTA move and not had it result in something
that I didn't expect. I have rolled an attack roll 100
million times and had it result exactly in what I expect.
Whether it's fail or success. It's like, I know exactly the
outcomes that are going to come in this interjection of
mechanics, and I like to be surprised if there's gonna be a
mechanical intervention in what I'm doing.
And this was kind of a little bit of a, this is me trying to
explore the amount of scaffolding that I want as AGM.
Which is funny 'cause you mentioned earlier, I'm a way
better game designer than MGM, but I still try to design for
myself sometimes. But yeah, in that often I find
myself reading books and pulling a couple things out of them,
reading an adventure and pulling a couple things out of them, not
ever playing them with all of the elements.
And so I was like, what if I just make a game that explicitly
says pull two of these elements? Like pick the ones that are fun,
pick different ones every time you come through it.
What if I just give you a bunch of suggestions and kind of own
that their suggestions? Because I think some of my like
least favorite gaming moments have been when people feel like
they need to abide by the rule book and when they're like, oh,
that thing I just thought of would be super fun.
But it conflicts with that other hidden detail that I know about,
but the players don't know about or like this internal logic of
the game or whatever. And this was very much so like,
just say the fun thing. And if it doesn't align, it
doesn't align and you can justify it later.
Or you could not justify it because witchcraft.
I don't know, You know, magic exists.
It's not. It's good for game designs and
authors to like expressly give that, and this might kind of in
a way relate to the one O 1 versus 2O1 type of game.
Where whoever is. Writing the and the author of
the game like gives that license like explicitly to the reader to
like hey, here's how the game is run, how I run it.
If something else works better at your table, you should do
that. I feel like that makes a major
difference for how. People.
Determine those moments where they're like, Oh no, whether
it's written this way. And I feel like that kind of
relates back to like if you play one O one games, the one O one
games should give you that and two O one games should kind of
assume like, oh, you should know, you know.
Yeah, yeah. I so I think I've thoughts
right? Of course I do.
But like the I think one of the issues with the space in general
is part of the newness of it, but also like a lack of
direction as a field, right? Like if I want to make a board
game, I could buy 100 books right now on how to make a board
game. Like if I just want game design
in general, I can buy 100 books. But as far as like TTRPG game
design, there really is no resource for that.
Like specifically, a lot of the people that you a lot of the
people that what should be making really good books have
actually exiled themselves from the space.
But there's just a lack. Most of our field is in blogs in
for the last 15 years, you know, and no one's really put it
together or made thoughts about it.
So the we get this constant like rehashing of the same stuff over
and over again because you get all these people that are like
discovering something for the first time that's been around
for 20 years. So it's an interesting space to
be because when you get to have the same system matters
discourse every three months because someone just discovered
it for the first time. It would be nice to have like a
book out there that had like NDTTRPG is for W is like the
thing you're making isn't new, but just make it in a new way
and it it, I don't even know where I'm going with this or
what happened, but it's just an interesting space to be in where
like I said, there is nothing really.
There is no North Star I think in the TRPG space.
And the difference between one-on-one games and two on one
games, I feel a lot of it is experience and assume knowledge.
That's what that's what I should have wrote there instead of
textbook. That would have been better.
But even within what we're talking about, there's a lot of,
there's a level of assumed knowledge where we're like,
well, people should just know that you can just like hack your
own thing. And it's just like, no, people
don't know that they just got into this like four months ago
or six months ago or a year ago and every game they played like
isn't built that way. So even the idea of being like
you can, you can hack it, do whatever.
I still, I feel like is still a bit of like assumed knowledge
for people even knowing how to do that.
You know, in inter mirror brightly, actually the pay we me
and Hunter talked about it a bunch.
There's a page that talks about like if it's uninteresting, like
you can do something different, but then there's like a whole
other like more to the page about like what you can do.
And I'm like, this is such a great way to have like AA101
style thing where it's like not only we've all we all know this,
we've read a million games, you've written them a bunch, but
they're like, you can hack it. But here's also how is is a is a
really good a good thing to have.
And I think when there isn't that North star of direction for
people, the assumed knowledge I think is one of the the pitfalls
that happens a lot in the space. Yeah, I hate a just make it up
prompt. It's not it's not, it's not
helpful. There's like I don't that text
to me does nothing. And so one of the things that I
like was thinking about with this is like the list of this
list went through many different names and it went through many
different, but each each handbasket, please write an RPG
manifesto, Aaron each. So the game, the way the game
works is they're central rules. And then you have these
handbaskets that are kind of mini games and they call come
with their own rules. And I standardized all of the
rules that come with them. And one of the sections that
come that comes with them is rule secrets and complications.
And these are mainly suggestions.
You could take them as hard things if you wanted, but it's
mainly a pick list of what you think is fun and I and which is
because for me, the you can change this if you want.
But if you're just flipping to this page and you need some
help, here's something you can pull to actually help you.
Like if you don't want to make it up, here's a bunch of cool
stuff, which I feel like is where I sit often.
We, I think often about, we read a book on RTFM called The Witch
of Lindisfarm and it has this weird.
It's like a scene based. There's some scene stuff
happening and it has these vignettes and they're just I
took issue with them and I don't remember why 'cause it was a
long time ago on the podcast. But they have stuck out at for
me as like an interesting mechanical component where I
think one of them was like a knife embedded in a tree.
And it's just these like little images that you pull from to
play off of. And I find that they were like
super evocative and most of what I want from a game is something
like a knife embedded in the base of a tree.
Like that is most of what I want your game.
Look, it's just this tiny little snippet that I can pull out
because what I what I need help with as AGM is when I get stuck.
That is the main reason I need a rule book is for the moments
when I don't know what to do. And what I want then is
something that is like narratively compelling or
interesting or evocative or like, you know, environmental or
whatever. Like it's that moment when my
brain blanks and you're like, I don't need do a role and make up
the answer. I need something to put in here.
I need you to give me a like actual like, you know, like I I
need something concrete when I'm stuck, not just do whatever you
want. See, that's the crux right there
because I feel like you get to that, like not you just the,
the, the broad you people get to that point.
And I feel like that point right there, especially for PBTA is,
is like so structure. So structure this for me a
little bit like give me the pick list or give me these options.
And that point right there is where I go.
I don't want any of that structure whatever I want to be
able to do whatever I want and go it.
It feel like that is the divergent point right there.
I want to be able to make up whatever I want like on the
spot. And I don't want to feel to me
that the kind of PBTA move style feels like a cage almost because
at that, at that exact point where I go, I can do whatever I
want, you know, and you can in PBTA with some of the narrative
stuff, but I do feel like it narrows it in.
And I feel like we, we, I think I feel like maybe in your
discord, this came up before and I was like, ah, now I understand
now I get it. Now I get why, you know, some
people think this way and some people think that way.
And I think that is literally the crux of it right there.
It's just when, when that moment happens, I want absolute
freedom. And some people want more
structure to it. Like don't just tell me, make it
up. Like give me a little bit of
something. So.
Yeah, I think again, we are going to have to have this
episode at some point. But I think what I find Pbta
does really good is in that moment where I'm stuck, it asks
really interesting questions, but that is dependent on whether
or not it's well written Pbta. And that is a whole other
different thing. But I find the mechanics of Pbta
interject a a question that I would not have thought of and
asking, which brings up answers that I would not have thought of
answering both me and the players.
And that's, and I can see how 'cause it is, it is condensed,
it is confined, it's not, it's not open to everything.
But when those, when those questions align with the like
theme of the game, I find them super good.
And but that doesn't mean they all do that.
But that's a total tangent. Well, that's, I mean, every,
everyone I know that's a big PBTA ad says that there's a
million PBTA S and four good ones.
Yeah, so. The PVTA is really hard.
It's so much harder to make than other game types.
OSR shit is so easy. It is so easy.
Just pick a mechanic from one of the 700 established mechanics
and add a bunch of adjectives together and you have an OSR
scene. And this is not like, and I'm
not saying that's not good and it can't be great, but it like
is like significant. The barrier is significantly
lower than writing something that is genuinely evocative.
It is a It is a harder exercise of game design to make a PBTA
move than it is to make an OSR. I'm gonna now make a PBETA hack
and I'm gonna send you it and be like, what?
Do it? What do you think about this
motherfucker? You're gonna.
Say that and then you're gonna sit down to write a move, and
then you're gonna spend 8 hours researching how to write a move
and you're gonna be like fuck this, I'm not doing.
Oh, I just just just bookmark that one tweet, Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, No, there's, there are
some great moves, Guy I, I do. I do think that that actually
does make a lot of sense and that's probably why PBTA falls
off so hard some of the time. The OSR is really is like pick a
mechanic and pick a few other mechanics that fit in to create
your game and then just pay color them a certain thing.
So a bunch of drugs and write down what you see and you got
OSR, right like that. So do you not find PBTA to be
restrictive? I don't.
I don't have a problem with games being restrictive 'cause
they 'cause I actually want them to be more restrictive, because
I'm not. What I want to play when I'm
playing a game is the game designer's creative expression,
not necessarily mine. If I wanted to play mine, I
probably wouldn't pick somebody else's game.
Why would somebody else know what I want to play in my game?
That's an unreasonable expectation.
I want to experience what they are trying to communicate,
right? Like Aaron is Aaron runs games,
makes games, does all kinds of game stuff that I would never
make up of my own accord. And so when I play an Aaron
game, I'm like, I want to see Aaron's creative.
I want to like poke around in Aaron's brain a little bit.
So if it's confined to Aaron the way Aaron thinks, that's that's
a plus to me, right? Like that's and, and, and I
think usually, I don't know, I found that some of the games
that I think are way stronger are much more solid in that
perspective, right? I really like games that have a
unique perspective on something and that will like necessarily
in some way be restricted if I wanted to play a classic fantasy
game. Yeah, maybe there's an argument
because. And that is true, right?
Like I think most classic fantasy games kind of are all
the same classic fantasy game and or like when I play them,
they probably all feel the same because what I want to play is
my version of the classic fantasy game, right?
And so it doesn't. I don't think that the
experience of playing D&D versus playing dungeon crawl versus
playing into the odd whatever is inherently that different when
I'm GM ING. I do think that like, you know,
playing pasiones, Pasiones is like so fundamentally different
than playing DCC. That is such a different thing
that is never, I could never get there with DCC, right.
And I do think that that to me is interesting and often it
pushes my own boundaries and that's a little uncomfortable.
But sometimes I like I but I want to be better at having my
boundaries pushed, not put that on the game.
You know, like I would like to be better.
I would like to flex the muscle of being uncomfortable because I
don't know how to express express romance or whatever, you
know, yeah, and it and it so I think it's more about like I
have different expectations of confinement kind of going into
different games and I and when I fight them on and not games are
not very good at telling you what what that is like aren't
very good at pitching you on like what your experience or
confinement or what the vision is going to be.
And so I don't think I think there's a lot of friction to be
found in your own expectations if you're going into something
like that. And so I think that those little
blurbs about what the whole game is about frequently I don't find
a match up with what the game actually like makes me want to
play. But I do find that some of them
is like, that's exactly why I'm here, right?
Like playing, I don't know, something big like the Quiet
Year or like beak, feather and bone, like those, like they're
very, very structured. And I really had a hard time
with that when I was like off randing from D and DI had like a
very hard time getting into what those games wanted me to do.
And some of them I don't like, but I still think they're good
games. They're just not the game I want
to play, right? Like I don't necessarily love
playing The Quiet year. I'm so happy it exists.
I'm so happy that so many people love playing it, but it's not
like the kind of story I want to tell.
But I don't think that's a failing of the game.
That's just a like mismatch, right?
Like we're just, we're speed dating and I'm moving on.
Like it's not, you know, like it's.
Yeah, yeah. I mean that, you know, at some
point I'll blog and at some point I'll talk about why system
matters and then also doesn't matter at all.
But I think that's part of it. Aaron, I had mentioned in chat J
Dragon's article about the puppy girl in the cage.
And I really think it just comes down to like how big a cage you
want, you know, and it's all the, I just feel like it's such
a just a cyclical argument. It's like everyone's saying the
same thing, just in like a slightly different way.
And, but I, I do feel like that's what comes down to like
the rules are there for a reason.
And it's the engagement with those rules and the way that you
both engage them and choose not to is what creates the friction
in the game that'll that makes the game.
You know, and some people want a smaller cage so they can bounce
off the walls a little bit more frequently.
And some people want like, you know, just give me a yard and a
shot collar and I'll figure out where the borders are.
You know what I mean? So it's just an interesting you
take that that Jay had with with that.
And I love that article and completely agreed with it.
And then I feel like someone like Aaron, I don't know if they
agreed or, or disagreed with that, but I feel like they could
read it and be like, yes, and it's like we're both saying the
exact same thing and agree on the exact same thing.
But then we'll also play two very different games all the
time. So it's, it's, it's a, it's an
interesting thought about games and how how people engage with
them. It's like what pops in my head a
bunch is like tag, like when I was a kid, like tag is tag,
right? Except that stuck in the mud is
incredibly different from Amoeba, you know what I mean?
But you're all still running around, you know?
And that's, that's what I thought about it.
Are you serious? You never played?
Yeah, I. Know I know what amoeba is but.
Yeah, second mud is when you get when you get tagged, you have to
stop like you're stuck in the mud and someone has to crawl
like underneath your legs to like free you from the mud.
OK. But you can get tagged while
you're trying to crawl underneath.
So yeah, it's like, it's like freeze tag.
Yeah. And, well, no.
What like a different way to like unstick them or whatever?
Yeah, I love tag. That was that was not the crux
of that whole statement, but that was the bar was like, what
the fuck is that, you know? Did you know?
Did you know what stuck in the? What is Max?
No, we did not play that. We did.
We did amoeba and red rubber. So I feel like everybody has
their different local whatever weird tag thing.
Christian and Chad said Ryan was a real tag head.
Love me some tag you know this has.
Been a really interesting conversation.
Max, I, I, I obviously like, you know, Ryan and I referenced that
we're all, we're working on our own personal projects and, and
you know, I have no expectations for how big my own personal
project gets. But like you talking about how
you see like the confinement of certain rules as like a positive
because you want to like experience that person's idea of
what the experience they want to give out is not how I've been
thinking about designing my own game.
And I really appreciate that insight.
Like I feel like I just did a shroom strip in my like reality
was expanded by a small percentage, you know?
It's me, I'm shrooms. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think it like, funnily enough, it goes back to that
whole idea of like, are CTRP GS art 'cause if the answer is yes,
then I want to experience your artistic output, right?
Like when I go to experience art, I'm meeting it on its
terms. When I go to solve a puzzle,
sometimes that's a little different, right?
Like when I they're not, they're the goals are not always the
same. And I'm also not always in the
same mood. Like sometimes I'm like, you
know what I want to do? I want to go play Apex Legends.
And other times I'm like, I would like to be really confused
about what the game I'm playing is.
And I do think that those are and I do think that frequently
like the big fantasy heartbreaker is Apex Legends,
right? Like you are going in with a lot
of understandings about what this convention of game is
because an Apex here is a stand in for every first person
shooter. Like they're all kind of the
same or very similar, at least in your engagement with them.
Yes, sometimes, according to Aaron, sometimes I want to get
drunk and play Skyrim for the 100th time.
Yeah, like some things are very comforting and sometimes.
And I. And part of this is also like,
yeah, I thought I knew what I liked when I was playing
Dungeons and Dragons for 10 years.
And that was not, I knew what I liked.
That was, I only know a couple things exist, right?
And, and for me, it is hard for me to confidently sit in.
I know every possible experience and therefore I know which ones
I like best. I know some that I like.
I know I know things I have enjoyed.
I know like, you know, like, there's a lot of stuff that I
can say about my own tastes. But part of that is also
acknowledging that there's so much that I don't know and I
kind of want to try it out. And I think it, but that is also
like, that's a vulnerable ask, right?
Like that. And that I'm not always down to
be vulnerable when I'm playing games.
And so I'm not always down to like play new games and like
experience. And I have played games where
I've thought I was down for that and then have gotten into the
game playing of it and have been like, oh, actually what I really
wanted was something like comforting and familiar.
And I'm sorry. And now I'm gonna ruin, probably
ruin our experience to like our ability to meet this game where
it is because I'm bringing all of these ideas.
And I feel like, yeah, I'm not always super good at
communicating those things, but I do have those weird.
I I have many wolves. All of the wolves live inside me
except for the except for the really romantic ones.
No, it's, it's, I mean, it definitely is that, you know, I
mean, even if you look at other types of media, like people have
comfort TV shows, like I've watched the office like 18
times, you know, but sometimes I want to put on a, a three hour
long, a 24 film and just not understand what the fuck is
going on for a little while, you know, But I mean, it also comes
down to like every one of us knows 20 drinking games and
every one of us knows 18 card games and there's still people
out there that only play D&D, you know what I mean?
It's but I think it does come to a lot of that vulnerability and
and the urge to play. But like I know every time I've
ever learned a new card game, someone explains the rules to me
and I still have no idea what the fuck is going on for like 4
hands. And then you get it and you'll
go, oh, OK. And I think that people think
that the like that that is that is a common human experience.
And I think that some people just don't either see it that
way or want to take that level of T TRPGS to just be like, I
don't know what's going on for a little while and that's okay,
but some people do and. I will do a thing.
I will defend something that nobody's currently attacking
right now. Maybe it's just me starting
discourse, but one of the reasons that I think about these
things this way is because I do exist frequently in academia.
And what academia in relation to games means for me is like are
are my experience in it, which I do not think is a universal
experience at all, is that it is about exploring the medium and
the communication tools and then also integrating a lot of the
design that is possible. And a lot of the products that
exist on the commercial side of games are replicating things for
sellability and are not actually interested in exploring it.
And most consumers are not looking for something new,
right? It's not about having a new
experience. And so I think that these things
feed into each other in like a really clear way.
And like my big, which is mainly just like we do not actually
understand or have a lot of references, you know, are
getting back to what you were saying, but we don't have a lot
of references for design patterns for RPGs.
We have D&D design think pieces, which is such a small like if
you think about the number of games that exist, not how many
people play each games, D&D is non existent, right?
Like it's not a blip when we look at all those charts about
like how popular it is in those kinds of games.
There's still such a small percentage of all the possible
game designs that could exist and do exist in the world.
And I feel like sometimes my frustration with like the indie
sphere is that it's not even the indie sphere.
My frustration with players I love stating with people who
play RPGs, myself included, is generally like not not I.
I guess I maybe, and maybe it is just that I don't understand
being that person who wants to play the same game every day.
Like I when I play video games, I don't want to play the same
video game. When I watch movies, I watch
different movies more than I watch the same movie, you know,
and that like I can want to watch a comfort movie.
I'm still more frequently than not watching a different movie.
And same goes for video games. But like, I know some people
that spend their whole lives playing exclusively Fortnite.
So fine. I just don't want to be in
design conversations or in community largely with people
who want to play the same thing over and over again all the
time. Like we're not we don't have a
shared interest. If what you like is Fortnite, I
like video games you like, right?
Like it's a different thing. And I think that that often
sometimes hurts or like the designers often often like
inhibit themselves preempting that community, preempting that
like commercial ship existing. And I, and I think that that
does a disservice to games as a whole.
And 'cause I also think that like the line between this is,
again, this isn't just not my high horse, but the line between
like what is a tabletop RVG and what is a LARP and what is AVR
game and what is an AR game? Like none of these things
matter. These lines don't matter and
there is and as we like exist in this world where all of these
things can be very blurry and you can like have technological
interventions or analog interventions into technology
and all of these things like we have to develop better language
for what we're talking about when we're talking about games
that isn't based on its technology, which I think is
like, I mean, we need to have better tools for talking about
the world that isn't based in its technology, right.
Like a video game. Oh, you play it on a screen.
Great, congratulations. That doesn't actually tell us a
whole lot about video games. How many of these games require
a tabletop? When was the last time you
played a game on a tabletop? Was it discord?
Because that's not a tabletop like these like this whole and I
know we use analog games, but like, what does that even mean?
It's fine. I just think that all of these
kind of categories and, and design conversations we have are
very inhibited, inhibited by our lack of language.
And our lack of language, I think kind of retroactively or
reflexively like hurts our design brains, convinces us in
our design brain that we're already stuck in these small
amounts of tools to kind of explore.
I bet you do, Christian. I bet you do.
Yeah, no, I, I, I completely agree.
And I think that's one of the biggest problems with the space
is people that think that they the way that they play the game
is the only right way to play the game.
And then they like talk to you as if you're playing the game
wrong because you're not playing the very narrow band of style of
game that they play. Hence most discourse you like
you're not playing it exactly the way that I choose to play
it. So you're wrong and I'm going to
write all these ways about how you're wrong and then just one
of like the, it's so stifling. Like it, it will never stop
putting like shackles on the entire space.
If you have all these people saying that the way you're
playing the game is wrong because it's not the way that I
play the game as opposed to just understanding it's different.
Like I, I, I, I don't know, I wasn't in the space at the time,
but I can't imagine all the Monopoly heads were yelling at
Gloom Haven saying it wasn't a board game.
You know what I mean? Like that just it makes no sense
to me. Monopoly heads.
Yeah.
And I think that, like I think
it's a shame because I think discourse at its heart, not
discourse, but the colloquial term is quite required for us to
develop the craft of TPTRPGS, right?
Like we do need to be in discussion with one another and
we do need to not sit in our isolated little rooms being
like, I'm doing this for the first time ever.
Like, you know, like there, there is an importance in
exploring what already exists and exploring the statements and
ideas that people are already having.
And it's the internet's fault that we can't do that in any
kind of healthy way, which I think is why a lot of people
talk about like the forge era or whatever, which sounded equally
toxic because it was just a bunch of dudes.
But but it it was a it when it is talked about romantically,
and I have no idea how authentic this is because I was not
involved in the forge. There is this idea of.
Kind of investigating some of the language and tool sets and
theories and ideas of RPGs and I think that Twitter was not a
good place to try and carry on that one.
No, Twitter's great for that. That was our.
Great. Yeah, that's super good.
But yeah, I don't know. That's a very large tangent
about the theory of RPGs, but I have a lot of, I think a lot
about it. It is my job and I am a person
who really likes theory and also research and craft and all that
stuff. And so you should write A blog
because I actually think blogs are one of the very few places
where people don't fight about things.
They just say what they think and are very like, take it or
leave it or like, even if they're, even if they're like
arguing against something because arguing against
something sometimes highlights just as many things as arguing
for. So like that is an important
part of that discussion also. But I think that when you're
saying this is my little platform, this is my little
corner of the Internet, and I'm going to speak all my opinions
here, totally fine. You could be, you could say as
many, like I think this game design sucks as you want on your
little blog. I think that's what blogs are
good for. I mean, you can, but then people
are, the people are gonna argue in your comment section and on
Twitter about it afterwards. I'm not saying it's a bad thing.
I think blogs are amazing. I love there's so many good
blogs out now and there's so many good theory in blogs from
Forgera on whether the people writing them were, you know,
chuds or not. The a lot of the theory at least
exists and it exists, like I said, in the space in blogs.
I think blogging is fantastic. We, I, there are a lot of great
bloggers out there and people that write a lot of great stuff.
I just like I said, it's always this war about like, I don't
even know. I don't it doesn't matter.
Anyone that listens to the podcast gets opinions all the
time and that's fine. But I, I, this discussion is the
kind of discussion I would love to have a lot more of, you know,
and this is one of the reasons I love RTFM podcast so much is
because, I mean, I'm a systems guy.
Hunter's more of a systems guy too.
Like we really love digging into systems here on the podcast.
And then we get RTFM to listen to more of the theory crafting
and the ideations and like discussions on even like ethics
and morals and a lot of stuff with gaming and, and things like
that. There's so.
Much covered anal Wizards, you know.
Yeah. Yeah, thank you.
We're doing the Lord's work. The Anal Lord's work.
With the the sexy season, you know.
Yeah, the sexy season continues. We're trying.
I also really like systems. I just think systems are more
amorphous and fuzzy than we think of them as.
Like I think that, you know, a lot of the a lot of the things
that we use is like, I think most of the book is a system
frequently. But I also, yeah, I do.
I do really like systems. It's I feel like it's a dirty
Oh, it's only I only do this in response to I'm I'm pre empting
Aaron's response, which is. I love how you're on our show
right now and you and Aaron are still kind of having a back and
forth through the chat. Aaron.
Lives in my mind. Aaron's actually not real.
Only Aaron is a robot that I've created on the Internet.
Yeah. But yes, I feel like it's
because we talk all the time that it's impossible for me to
not acknowledge that so much of my idea is developed in
Conversate. Like so much of what I think
about these things is developed either on the podcast or in the
response to Aaron and I discussing things.
And so I have to, for better or worse.
God, if I was only more clever, Ryan would have those well.
No, no Hunter. Hunter's a fantastic Co host
here on the show. I wouldn't be able to do what I
do without without him. And it's really cool that you
have have Aaron to do that too. And that, like I said, we get to
listen to it. I don't know if I said enough on
the RTFM podcast. Go listen to it on where where
all your podcasts are sold. Really, really fantastic.
I'm still going through past episodes it whenever I'm sitting
at work. I'm just like, all right, it's
time to put on RTFM right now and I'll just sit and listen to
you know, Max and I don't know, I I still need to finish the was
it vice and virtue episode. Man who?
A lot of a lot of boob. A lot of boobs in that book, a
lot of boobs. But but yeah, no, it's I, I wish
more people had this kind of conversations.
I'd love to have more conversations like this on the
show and love to get more people together to have these kind of
conversations a little bit more like it would be really
interesting to have you. Have you read like, I think it's
just called D6 from Adam Vas and it will, we're bringing it all
the way back to Adam Vas, as we often do.
Have you read that that little two pager that they put out?
I have not. It's just a really great little
little scene that just talks about like the D6 and like all
the ways you can roll it and the interesting things you can do
and like a little bit of theory and a lot of math.
And like all the I would love if there was like something like
that for just indie teach RPGs for dummies, where we could have
a whole chapter on theory crafting and a whole chapter on
like how D sixes, D 10s and D twelves and stuff work.
And you know, and then just put bringing together a bunch of
like the the big important blogs in the scene.
That would be let's let's let's make it.
Let's write a book. Let's make this happen, Mr. I
do, I do in fact, like writing books.
It has, it has happened. Yeah.
I mean, I think that's why it's, it's hard 'cause I think there
is, it's like expensive. But I, I do think this is also
the value of like magazine style scenes, you know, like not game
scenes, but like here's a bunch of I do.
I will also plug splat Splatzine I think is in issue 5 now and
they get a bunch of different folks together to kind of chat
about like different experiences.
They have different themes. And so each, each each version
may appeal or not appeal depending on what theme they're
covering. But but I think they're trying
to do some of that, some of that work as well.
And I do like think pieces kind of being in conversation with
one another. Yeah, if only people publish
these things and make. Books.
Well, listen, we we all have a million ideas and maybe one of
us does one of them every now and then is what you know it
comes down to. But listen, when, when, when,
when you're living under the burdens of capitalism, you know,
everything you do is there's a lot between an idea and getting
it put out, even if it's just a stress of existing and paying
rent can be a burden to that. Wouldn't it be nice to go back
to a time where we had patrons and we could just, you know, do
our own fucking thing with someone else pays for us to
live? That would be, you know, the
ideal way to exist. Yes, as long as that didn't come
with everything else that comes with the time of patients, as
long as we can just steal that little bit, just that one small,
tiny. Microcosm.
You know, social. Issues or.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's like the 99% of the other stuff, yeah.
I've done a terrible job of talking about this game so.
No, we, we have also done a terrible job.
At this point, I think what we're gonna do is, is review the
game tomorrow because this definitely went way longer than
we expected. But that's not bad at all.
This has been an amazing conversation.
Really can't thank you enough for coming on.
We need to do this more often. I feel like the last time you
were on, we had like a similar conversation and me and Hunter
both like, man, we love them. We need to talk to them more.
Same with Aaron. It was, it was amazing to talk
to both of you guys. I know we've been chatting a
little bit about having you on and it was great to actually
have that happen both of you. How do you?
Crossover span and have all four of us and just do like RT FM TWS
kissing podcast. Maybe let's do it.
We have to do an inversion episodes where Aaron and I only
talk about systems and mechanics and you two can only talk about
theory and ethics. OK.
And we'll just we'll pretend to be one.
I don't know who's going to be homest, but this, this.
Yeah, I will get AI will get a better mustache, either a bigger
mustache or more head hair. And then I can be one of you and
Eric, take something else. There you go no Aaron and chat
talked about doing a round table and bringing bringing Christian
on as well. I it's that's another thing that
we've wanted to do a lot is to have various round tables where
we bring in a lot of people and I think that'd be a really
interesting conversation and to have expect hope hope, hope for
more stuff like this, but don't expect very much is what I will
tell our audience. We'll see what happens when it
happens. But but yeah, I think I think I
think that's a good that felt like a good what it what is
Aaron's sale A tight 90 is is where we're at.
So I think that is our plan. If you're listening just listen
to the next episode tomorrow because I think we're going to
bump actually going through handbaskets to its own episode
tomorrow. But again, Max can't thank you
enough. I really hope we do are able to
engage more with what did what did Christian say?
Read the read the fucking weekly scroll.
Well, we'll, we'll do more crossover stuff here, but but
thank you. Thank you so much for coming on
and thank you for, I don't know, just do just being you and doing
the things you do, because I really enjoy everything that you
put out. And every time we get to
interact is is always a joy. So thank you so much.
Yeah, yeah. Thanks for having me.
It's always lovely all. Right.
Well, well, then that's gonna be it for us.
Listen to where? Where can people find you?
Where can people? I know above me, next to you,
there's a giant thing that says huge board games.
Where can people find Max Lander's stuff?
Where can people find RTFM? Where can people actually get
all the the fun engagement that I'm talking about?
Yeah, I mean, you can go to huge board dot games.
It's also it's just gonna redirect to my itch page, which
I believe is Maxwell Lander on Itch, which can also be how you
could find me. If you wish to find me on
Twitter or blue sky or any of the other places, it's all
Maxwell Lander. RTFM.
Oh geez, I think it's just RTFM. cast.com.
We'll take you to all those places and we have a fun
discord. If you want to come talk about
theory and all that nonsense. You can find hand baskets at The
Itch. You can also.
I'm saying this here and only here and never hold me to it
anywhere again. Maybe it'll disappear.
If you want to get one of the remaining physical copies of
Handbaskets, you can do so at oddfolkshop.com.
And you absolutely, absolutely should.
This is a great, great book on both ends.
I'm super excited to talk about this tomorrow.
I I love this kind of like inspired by Cyber Metal and gone
and it's own direction. I think it's cool.
So very excited for odd folk. We'll see.
But yeah, check all that stuff out.
Check them out. You know where all our links
are? They're next to us.
And we've done this before. Click, click, click stop below.
It's the Internet. You've figured it out.
Again, Max, thank you so much for being here.
And we will talk to all of you later.
Bye bye.