1 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,320 Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll Podcast. 2 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,280 My name is Ryan. And I've been recently re 3 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,080 sleeved so I'm not sure who I am yet. 4 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:25,160 Wow I wish I had recently been re sleeved. 5 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:29,280 This sleeve sucks. I am Max Lander. 6 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,280 I have made a bunch of role-playing games, chiefly 7 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:36,040 among them being Himbos of Myth and Metal, my personal favorite 8 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:45,560 Frame 352 and also my my new my new refound Love Hand Baskets. 9 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,160 Hand baskets, yes. Happening. 10 00:00:50,480 --> 00:00:53,920 Yeah, I think, I think was it, was it Himbo's last time you 11 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:56,440 were on when we were at Yeah, Himbo's. 12 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:00,080 Yeah, Himbo's is such a good game in so many different ways. 13 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,600 I bring it up all the time. Isn't it though? 14 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:04,680 It is. I'm very humble about. 15 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:07,760 It it really is like on top it really is a good one 16 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:10,560 instantaneous tangent. Welcome to the weekly scroll 17 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,480 podcast. I tell people all the time, I'm 18 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,680 like, if you're playing AD 20 game and you don't use like the, 19 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,880 the kind of it's not mixed success, but like kind of like 20 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,760 the that, that threshold that's in himbos, you're not using D 21 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:25,520 20s, right? Because it's just such a good 22 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,520 way to to really make it a lot easier to GM. 23 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,160 Yeah. Single handedly saving the D20 24 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,240 which I did not think would be my job in the world, but here we 25 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,520 are I. Believe we're we we are all in 26 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:44,040 the same 2D sixes is best catwalk on our D20 roll under 27 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:48,280 but 2D6 for the win. I love AD 24 wonder, you know. 28 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,320 I'm inside just said Himbos is my go to upbeat fantasy game. 29 00:01:55,800 --> 00:02:00,120 Yes, I. Yeah, I feel like I've had an 30 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,360 extremely chaotic couple years of my life, and that has 31 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:05,520 coincided with releasing some games. 32 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:07,480 And then every once in a while I go back and read them and 33 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:09,320 realize like, it's been four months and I haven't touched 34 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:11,240 something like Himbos or like hand baskets. 35 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,200 And I go back and I'm like, wait, I'm good at this. 36 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:20,200 I should play these games which make a super humble, really. 37 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,600 But you know what? If if you make good shit, you 38 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:26,160 should tell people you make good shit, you know? 39 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,040 I also think there's something to like running away from it for 40 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:31,240 a while. Like when you're deep in it, 41 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,320 you're like, oh, this is shit. And then you go away for six 42 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,160 months and you come back and you're like, Oh no, I had some 43 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,520 cool ideas. Like you can look at it and feel 44 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:40,800 a little bit more confident about where it lives. 45 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,120 And I feel like I've I've done that with most of my games now 46 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,400 because I've been in a bit of a lull for releasing things. 47 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,400 I'm like, Oh no, these were these were fun. 48 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:53,720 Well, I don't feel like that about the stuff I've made so 49 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:55,080 far. I go back and I'm I haven't 50 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,280 released anything, but I have a bunch of Google Docs of games 51 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,280 and I'm like, I go back and I'm like, oh, this is bad. 52 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:02,240 I should redo this. This is an awful idea. 53 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,320 I'm an idiot. I have a lot of unfinished. 54 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,720 I'm only saying that about the things that I've put out into 55 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:10,760 the world. I have many work in progress 56 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,080 documents that will stay that way forever for that reason. 57 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,360 But but the ones that I release out into the world, I feel like 58 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:22,920 I spend I'm I'm also, I believe in play testing and it does a 59 00:03:22,920 --> 00:03:25,480 lot. The difference between a work in 60 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,280 progress dock and a release dock for me is usually at least a few 61 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:32,040 rounds of play testing and that like makes a really big 62 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,560 difference on the final thing. So I think that. 63 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,000 Yeah, why did why did you say that like it was a dirty word? 64 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,160 I feel like, I don't know, I feel like it's the Internet has 65 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:47,760 taught me that like I shouldn't think that everything should be 66 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:49,040 play tested. I do. 67 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,040 I do think that in my heart at heart, yeah, because Aaron is 68 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,600 anti play testing. Aaron releases like beautiful 69 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,520 poetic things that can also just be read and enjoyed and can be 70 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:00,600 played and enjoyed. And I just like don't have that 71 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,800 confidence and I only I have the confidence after it's out. 72 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,360 But part of it is just that, like the amount of times I play 73 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,240 tested something and then like that didn't do what I wanted it 74 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,920 to do. I want I want it to do something 75 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:15,880 different. And I like to find that out 76 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:17,760 before I put it out into the world. 77 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,160 Or sometimes you play test and you're like, it did do what I 78 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,120 wanted it to do. But for me that I don't have any 79 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:30,160 kind of confidence that what I'm putting out will is will 80 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,840 communicate what I want it to unless I actually like have that 81 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:36,520 feedback. Yeah, I'm super pro play 82 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,800 testing, like super like you should play test like a million 83 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:44,240 times before you put it out. It all comes down to OK, we'll 84 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,000 know. That's a 5 hour conversation I'm 85 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:47,360 going to stay away from really quick. 86 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:51,200 I'll just say I think Death of the Author is terrible and I 87 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,920 disagree with it wholeheartedly. And maybe one day I'll write A 88 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:58,160 blog about it. But I feel like if again, as 89 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,160 someone who has a series of Google dot games that I've never 90 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:06,200 seen the light of day, I think if you're putting something out, 91 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:11,360 it should at least attempt to be what you want it to be, I guess 92 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,880 is my my thought. And if you don't even know what 93 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:20,040 it is, then what is it? I guess. 94 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:24,080 And, and again, very different schools of thought. 95 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:29,480 I think across a lot of TTRPG space it's still such a young in 96 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:34,600 like hobby industry. One of those things field work 97 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:36,440 field with my new word for all games. 98 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:42,440 I also think that like I do the one of the things that I really 99 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:47,440 enjoy is all the system stuff and the system stuff for me, 100 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,440 like if I was writing something for an established system or 101 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,520 when I have released things that are like an adventure, I don't 102 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,120 necessarily feel like I need to play test it. 103 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,960 If I'm releasing something for a different rule system, I don't 104 00:05:57,960 --> 00:05:59,640 necessarily feel like I need to play test it. 105 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,960 But a lot of what I like to do is like make new things or smash 106 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,960 a bunch of things together in different ways, and then I don't 107 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:09,680 know if they're going to work so. 108 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,320 That makes a lot of sense. I have a question, do you think 109 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:15,040 of tabletop games as an art form? 110 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,560 How dare you, how dare you bring my biggest troll with with 111 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,600 without them being here. Oh no, they they made sure to 112 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,440 say it in chat and and open that can of worms. 113 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,840 I mean, it's a can of worms because I am an art teacher and 114 00:06:33,840 --> 00:06:39,160 I have a lot of feelings about like problems with capital a 115 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,800 art, but also the value of capital a art and how creating 116 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,720 something for artistic value is different than creating 117 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,680 something for commercial value. And so the answer is they can 118 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,640 be, but they aren't by default because in order to make art, 119 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,440 you have to choose to make art. And that is a different process 120 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,920 and has different values and metrics and goals than making 121 00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:03,200 something commercially. I feel like it's a fine answer. 122 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,200 I'm so unbothered by the answer I'm surprised. 123 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,720 Because I have just honed it to hit directly, to hit directly 124 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,840 back at Aaron's. Aaron has I have been. 125 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:16,600 I've forged this opinion in the fires of discussing Aaron. 126 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,240 Aaron. I think that went over well and 127 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,880 I'm sure no one will leave any comments anywhere about that. 128 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,600 So no, they won't. No, not enough people that that 129 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,200 create discourse listen to us. But I this is actually a topic 130 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,080 that I think in my head all the time and like, it's one of those 131 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,200 things I talk to Hunter and I talk to people all the time. 132 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,200 I want to blog really bad because I have thoughts, but I 133 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,200 also hate people who think their thoughts are important enough to 134 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,920 blog about. So it's like, although I love 135 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:44,040 reading blogs, you know what I mean? 136 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:49,680 It's one of those things where but but like is is TRPG art is 137 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,800 something that I think about all the time and I personally don't 138 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,560 think it is. I think it's, I think teach art. 139 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,240 I think books can be art, but I don't think teach RPG design is 140 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,520 art. I think it's craft. 141 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,600 And if anyone thinks that that's like a step down, I think 142 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,960 they're disrespecting Craft, is my thought. 143 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,520 On it, see, my actual contentious thought is that I do 144 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,360 think in order to make art, you kind of have to develop your 145 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,200 craft. And a lot of people don't like 146 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:17,880 that 'cause they think of it as gatekeeping. 147 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:19,760 And I don't mean it in a gatekeeping way. 148 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,840 I think anybody can be can develop skills for art. 149 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:27,000 It's just that it involves time. People call anything gatekeeping 150 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:27,760 at this point. Anything. 151 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:28,600 Yeah. I mean like. 152 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,680 Expectation for the growth of like of effort put in to do a 153 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,880 thing is like is gatekeeping, right? 154 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,280 It's like AI is so great. It really levels the playing 155 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,919 field for all of. Us I was going to say a lot of 156 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,000 the times I get that thrown at me in response to like my anti 157 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,520 AI opinions where people are like, well, that's gatekeeping 158 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:46,680 these tools. And I'm like, no, it's not 159 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:52,240 accessibility to not teach people how to control the tools 160 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,360 they use. There's usually this jump that 161 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,080 is like, well, if we make programming, 'cause I also teach 162 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,080 programming. If we make programming, really 163 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,760 if we cut programming out, then it's more accessible. 164 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:02,520 And I'm like, actually accessibility is about teaching 165 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,200 people programming because it's about, you know, redistributing 166 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:06,200 power. It's the whole thing. 167 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:12,080 But but yeah, I do feel like I think craft is like a part of 168 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:17,960 art and I think that game design across all games fields and 169 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:24,640 mediums like can B that. But I do think that it is wholly 170 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,440 different than making something to sell it. 171 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:31,960 And usually I think if you're making something to sell it, 172 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,080 you're probably sacrificing the some of the artistic value of 173 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,760 it. Yeah, I so a for those who don't 174 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,080 know, Max does everything. A lot of things. 175 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:47,040 So yeah, a lot of things, but I, so I started college as an art 176 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,040 major and then don't go to college and be an art major if 177 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,960 you want to do art because they will make sure to beat it out of 178 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,480 you. But I in a, in a, in a slightly 179 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:00,560 different like kind of lens from like just capitalism as far as 180 00:10:00,560 --> 00:10:03,560 art. I definitely feel, and this is 181 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:09,120 in my personal opinion, let's use qualifiers so that people 182 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:10,360 understand that this is my opinion. 183 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,480 I'm not declaring discourse on them. 184 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:14,680 Your pitchforks ready, y'all. Right. 185 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,920 I just, I just, I've always thought there's a big difference 186 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,600 between fine art and craft. And like craft to me is 187 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,000 something that's like for commercial value easily, like 188 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:30,360 reproducible and and fine art is generally for the sake of the 189 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,880 art itself. And to me, TRPG design and like 190 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:38,640 you said, like when it's for making money and stuff like 191 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,800 that, there's becomes a difference to what you're doing. 192 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,440 So there is like a difference in the field for like people that 193 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:47,760 do it as a hobby versus people that try to make a living from 194 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:49,840 it and stuff like that. And I do think there becomes a, 195 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:55,680 a line that gets crossed. Not saying that's a good or bad 196 00:10:55,680 --> 00:11:00,640 thing when you decide something needs to make money versus like 197 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:05,560 having its own inherent value, But then I mean, you can also 198 00:11:05,560 --> 00:11:08,480 get into the conversation. Are GM's game designers because 199 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:13,160 they homebrew a rule? The answer is no, But you know, 200 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,280 it's it's it's, it's one of those things where it's like, 201 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,640 neither is bad. Like game designing takes. 202 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,200 I know people that make amazing games that are terrible gyms. 203 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,840 I don't know people that are amazing gyms that couldn't write 204 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,600 a game if they wanted to. It's like they're like you can't 205 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:32,840 look down on like like if you look at like an architect and 206 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:37,080 like the the head person at like a construction site. 207 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:38,600 I don't know why the name is escaping me. 208 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,240 Foreman. Like both are incredibly 209 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,040 important and a building would not get made without either of 210 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:44,960 them. But a foreman is not an 211 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:46,520 architect and an architect is not a foreman. 212 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,640 So there's AII to me personally, I think a lot of the issues that 213 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,400 people bring up when it happens is people like say, thinking 214 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,760 that what they're doing is lesser because it's not the 215 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,120 title that they want it to be versus just being proud of the 216 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:01,760 skills that they have for doing what they do. 217 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,920 I don't know that. I mean, it's all, it's all 218 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,280 capitalism, right? And a lot of people who would 219 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,960 argue that there is more inherent value in anyone job 220 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,120 than any other job or anyone's skill than any other skill is 221 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,560 largely probably doing that through a capitalistic lens, 222 00:12:17,560 --> 00:12:21,560 even if it's like internalized classism or not, right? 223 00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:24,120 Like a lot of it is internalized classism and you're just like, 224 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,080 no, like I don't in Canada, it's it. 225 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,000 I think this is different than the States, but in Canada we 226 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,720 have universities and colleges and they do different things. 227 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,680 And colleges are traditionally like work skills, like you are 228 00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:37,440 going to get a job at the end of college. 229 00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:41,400 And universities generally about like knowledge and the Academy 230 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:46,840 and developing whatever, some kind of field of research. 231 00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:50,400 And historically that means that people that have always thought 232 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,040 of colleges as lesser and now everybody who goes to college 233 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,560 gets a good job and nobody who goes to university gets a good 234 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,680 job. So there's this like, yeah, you 235 00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:00,000 know who's getting good jobs? Welders, welders be getting 236 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,080 those good jobs. And all of us, all of us 237 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,400 academics, except for me, I lucked out, but that's a weird. 238 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,200 I didn't, I also didn't plan on this. 239 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,680 But yeah. So I think it's a weird thing 240 00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:13,240 where I just think they're like totally different. 241 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:16,840 Funnily enough, just to throw it back at Aaron, I think what 242 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:18,840 Aaron does is largely an art practice. 243 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,720 So this is, but I don't know if they claim that. 244 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:27,000 So I'm just going to throw that. And part of that is also ties 245 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:28,400 into the need for play testing or not. 246 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,720 If you're making art games, you don't need to play test. 247 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,680 You could, the game could just be about reading it. 248 00:13:32,680 --> 00:13:36,680 Like this is so much of that. It could be about personal 249 00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:37,720 expression. Like it could just have 250 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,120 different goals that aren't the experience of play. 251 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:42,960 And that's totally legit. But. 252 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:48,120 Yeah, yeah, again, it's it's an interesting conversation when 253 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,960 especially cuz you, you, you and Aaron and tell me if I'm 254 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:56,520 completely wrong trend a little bit more story game than I think 255 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,680 me and Hunter do. And I think that that opening up 256 00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:04,960 of the narrative and narrative tools and I wanna say that kind 257 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:10,400 of like art artsier side of it. I think definitely trends that 258 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,560 way a little bit more than someone who's just like no D20, 259 00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:17,040 like, you know, difficulty class, like all this stuff. 260 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,880 It's very much more of like textbook than art book a lot of 261 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,560 times. So it's it's it's interesting. 262 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:26,720 But like even even within the field, you know, there's 263 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:31,680 definitely people that see themselves as, you know, artists 264 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:33,720 for like the way that they write and the things that they do. 265 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:35,400 And it is difficult because I think there's a big difference 266 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,080 between artists and artisans. And again, I think a lot of the 267 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,880 reason that people think one is better than the other is, is the 268 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,560 internal classes. When you say, but to me, I think 269 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:51,840 most teach RPG people that are I mean like an artisan is someone 270 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,400 who has honed their craft to the point that they can express 271 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:59,720 artistic like artistic like have artistic expression within their 272 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:01,280 craft. And that to me is like what 273 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,040 teacher bejesus, it's a craft. And some people have reached the 274 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,000 peak, the point where they can express themselves artistically 275 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:08,040 through that craft. So. 276 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,040 Which is funny 'cause that's the lens through which I think most 277 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,480 of the games that make the most money really fail, right? 278 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,680 Like that's the like, I would say that like through an artisan 279 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,640 lens, this is again, hot take. Whatever my opinion through an 280 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,480 artisan lens, games like Dungeons Dragons fail miserably. 281 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:26,680 They do not have a concise statement. 282 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:31,440 There is no like there is no tool set elegance on display. 283 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,520 There's not because it's like 700 million people trying to 284 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:39,280 smash 700 things and largely then basing it to an IP, right? 285 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,000 Like it's not. Whereas I think about some 286 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,280 people and this will come up later, so I'll just say this 287 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,920 now, but like the game that we're talking about is part of 288 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,160 like a dual game where both Aaron and I were obsessed with a 289 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:53,200 mechanic that Adam Vass made. And I feel like Adam Vass is the 290 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,520 person that I think of kind of is like peak for me at least 291 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:01,480 like one of the, the peak both 'cause I when I think about like 292 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,640 mechanical, but also like artistic and writing wise, 293 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,080 there's just like all these and then visual arts, like there's 294 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,160 just all these things that are coming together so beautifully 295 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,520 in Adam's games. And part of that I attribute to, 296 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,240 and this may not be how Adam feels about it, but part of what 297 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:20,200 I attribute that to is just like the consistent reengagement. 298 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,240 Like it's just a constant cycle of like outputting things that 299 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,200 sometimes don't hit as hard, but like just making it and 300 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,440 releasing it and making it and releasing it and trying 301 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,400 different things and all like just, I don't know, there's a, 302 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:35,240 there is a real dedication to craft as like a priority in 303 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,880 their life. And I feel like that really 304 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:41,920 shows. Yeah, this is classically an 305 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,920 Adam Vas Stan podcast. So pretty much, pretty much all. 306 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,360 Yeah, great things are said about Adam on this. 307 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:50,080 Who could? Like on a regular basis? 308 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,560 Like Adam Vas. If you anyone that plays HRPG is 309 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,640 like especially in in the indie scene at all and doesn't know 310 00:16:57,640 --> 00:16:59,800 Adam Vas, just know that it's your favorite game designer 311 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,040 who's favorite game designer and like, how dare you don't know 312 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:03,400 them, because I feel the exact same way. 313 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,440 Adam, Adam. And the way that they write is 314 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,480 one of like the very early things that that got me into the 315 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,440 indie scene. And when I read some of their 316 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,440 stuff and you just went, oh, this is very different than what 317 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,040 I thought it could be. And they definitely the way that 318 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:19,440 they write. I mean, the first time I read 319 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,240 Necronautilus like I've never been the same, you know what I 320 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,040 mean? I got to play Necronautilus for 321 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:29,320 the first time this spring at a con up here in Toronto. 322 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,720 And it was so. And I'd read it and been like, I 323 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:34,960 love this game so much and I never had an opportunity to play 324 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:36,280 it and finally got an opportunity to play it. 325 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,200 And it plays how you want it to. And you're like, well, this is 326 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:43,840 just screw you, screw you. It's too good. 327 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,200 Once again, it's so good. Yeah, it's so good. 328 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,400 I mean, and then Soul Burner too, and I mean for those people 329 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,240 that do want like a little bit more of like a grounded in the 330 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:57,960 it's, it's like a Necronaldis Markberg mashup. 331 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,440 I don't know if you've read Soul Burner, but like it, it gives 332 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,040 the little bit of crunch and makes it a little bit. 333 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,640 I mean, you're literally like a like a like a wandering ball of 334 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,040 like ash and burnt memories. You know what I mean? 335 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,200 Like, it's, it's so good. But yeah, I mean, that's exactly 336 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,600 what we're talking about. Like taking something to a level 337 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:20,080 that you, you, you when when your memories are your entire 338 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,560 existence, but you're living in like the like the, you know, 339 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,080 universe of death. Like, I don't know, chick. 340 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:30,920 It's it's it's it's depth that I I only wish that I could 341 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:36,520 reproduce in in at all. I mean, I've never put out 342 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,520 anything. I need to just write one word on 343 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:40,800 a page and publish it on edge and be like, look, I've done 344 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,440 something now I can do other things now. 345 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,320 Yeah, that's the craft development. 346 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:52,360 So Speaking of Adam and everything, so we do have this 347 00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:54,120 book in our hands. This is part of the low rise 348 00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:59,600 Futures Kickstarter. We already did Aaron's half and 349 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:01,600 that was enemy of brightly Fantastic game. 350 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,600 We're talking about handbaskets in a little bit here, so just 351 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,920 talk to us about handbaskets. I know that I don't know 352 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:10,320 anything. You you tell me. 353 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,240 Never heard of the game, never read it. 354 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:18,720 Handbaskets is both a tribute to a specific Adam Bass mechanic, 355 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:25,040 but also it actually started as I was gonna make a series of 356 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:31,880 adventures mini games for Cyber Metal 2012, which is a world 357 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,320 champ game Co game that I think is phenomenal, probably one of 358 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:36,840 my top top five games of all time. 359 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:42,760 And and I was like, I want to make something for this and it 360 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,520 started there. And some of the world building 361 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,400 of Cyber metal 2012 is like there's it's like a future 362 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,240 world. There's like a bunch of cyber 363 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,480 stuff, but then there's also like demons and witches and all. 364 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:55,120 And I was like, great, I love all of this. 365 00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:57,920 I wanna smash that all together and make. 366 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:03,440 And I was watching a lot of Alice in Borderlands at the 367 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:09,120 time, which is such a fun show, and was thinking a lot about 368 00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:13,680 like PvP play and how sometimes that's hard to do. 369 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:18,920 And I was like, OK, I'm gonna try and make like PvP blood 370 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:25,720 sport like bad. Reality TV show game and so 371 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:30,000 started making these like little mini games and then realized 372 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,520 that I was halfway to making a totally distinct game from Cyber 373 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:35,920 Metal 2012 and just went with it. 374 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,240 And so pulled in some other mechanics from other games that 375 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:44,920 I really enjoy like Kismet, and decided to make it standalone, 376 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,880 but tried to keep it so that if you want to play it with Cyber 377 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,400 Metal 2012, you can or or you can use the internal system. 378 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,560 And I've talked about this on my podcast a bunch. 379 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,440 But my dream game that will never exist, but may be hacked 380 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,640 together for a bunch of other things in the world is something 381 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,120 that uses a bunch of different mini games or where you're like, 382 00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:08,760 you have this like thin overarching game and then you 383 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,360 play like different games as you move through different sessions. 384 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,480 And so part of this was also like, what if I make a game 385 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,720 where you might just drop it into something else for a 386 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:25,200 session and then leave it alone? So it's not super crunchy. 387 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,440 It has some crunch, it has some crunch, but it's not like it's 388 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,080 not as light as some of the other games I've made. 389 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:35,840 But but is I think Hiccup able in a single session largely also 390 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:37,920 because one of the central concedes of the game, both when 391 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,720 designing it and communicated in the book is like you are meant 392 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,760 to take this and rip it apart and break it and like translate 393 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,560 it and interpret it in a way that feels fun. 394 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,000 And if that goes against whatever, like lean into just 395 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,760 breaking it. Lean into you being a central 396 00:21:54,760 --> 00:22:00,520 part of the way that this plays. And so it has rules. 397 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,560 But then it also tells you to ignore them, should you so 398 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,360 choose. And is definitely meant to be 399 00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:10,000 broken, yeah. Well, I mean, even even within 400 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,400 the, the, I mean, obviously we're gonna read through it here 401 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:13,600 in a little bit and, and talk about it. 402 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,520 But even within the like lore of the world and stuff like the 403 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,840 overlays break and crack and glitch and stuff, like the world 404 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:25,880 you're seeing breaks so and, and you can hack in the game and 405 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:30,400 stuff. So it it makes sense and all all 406 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,520 of that makes sense within the Lord too, for the rules to also 407 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,480 feed into it. I mean, that's what makes it a 408 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,560 good game when it all, you know, kind of gives you the same vibes 409 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,320 and and same intentions as you go through. 410 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,720 I feel like sometimes people need to be told, like, need to 411 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,960 be given a justification for breaking something. 412 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,920 And so I wanted to both like say that out loud with the words in 413 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,720 the book, but also be like as if you can try and structure it 414 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,360 like we're in like in the, you know, cyberpunk or cyber genre 415 00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:05,360 of games. We're in this like the history 416 00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:09,200 and RPGs is to make it really crunchy and really specific. 417 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,840 As if those things aren't going to get really confusing. 418 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,440 Like once we have a a virtual overlay on the world or 419 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,760 whatever, or in a world where everything is kind of virtually 420 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,440 overlaid, as if that wouldn't kind of break our psyches a 421 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,240 little. Like as if that wouldn't feel 422 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,000 dreamlike or fake or like all of this stuff would get really 423 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:26,800 confusing. Unless I kind of just wanted to 424 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,560 integrate that excuse right in there so that you can kind of 425 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:38,520 justify whatever you want. Or like the GM could justify 426 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,800 whatever they want, but also so that players don't feel like 427 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,640 they're limited in their suggestions, which I feel like 428 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,720 sometimes happens in games like, you know, Cyberpunk or whatever, 429 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,800 where you have a specific tool to do a specific thing. 430 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,680 And then that kind of implies that that's how you do that 431 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,760 thing. You're like, well, I don't, I 432 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:03,440 wanted to get away from that. Just be really, really broken. 433 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,800 That's that's a topic that V and Hunter talk about a bunch. 434 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,600 And especially because I listen to you, I listen to RTFM podcast 435 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,640 all the time. And for those that don't listen, 436 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,560 go listen to the RTFM podcast. Max and Aaron are much, much 437 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:23,960 smarter than us and the episodes that you that that you and Aaron 438 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,880 do like we, we very much talk about mechanics a lot. 439 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:36,400 And I feel like you lot talk about a lot more of like the 440 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,600 other parts of the games, like the, the themes and the 441 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,440 intentions and, and things like that. 442 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,120 Tell me if I'm I'm off base with that. 443 00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:48,160 And it's so interesting to hear more of like the theory talking 444 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,280 with TTRPG as opposed to just being like, this is a nice roll. 445 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,080 This is ADR. This is this isn't. 446 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:54,880 And it's really fun to to listen. 447 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:56,280 I've said this. I think I've said this to both 448 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,320 the at this point, it's like, I feel like I've heard you guys 449 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,280 way more than you're ever gonna hear me. 450 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,880 And I feel like I know like so many of like the thoughts and 451 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,160 opinions y'all have, even though we've never talked about it. 452 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,280 And it's a very weird like Internet thing to to have that 453 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,240 experience. Yes, our our weird pseudo. 454 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,840 It's not like we don't have a parasocial relationship because 455 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,160 we do actually talk to one another. 456 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,200 But it is, it does feel almost there. 457 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:27,840 I feel like somebody do that. Yeah, yeah, I forget also all 458 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,160 the things that I say. And then people will be like, 459 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:31,840 remember when you said this? And I'll be like, absolutely 460 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:32,400 not. I do not. 461 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,920 I believe that probably I said it, but I do not remember saying 462 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,640 it. But yeah, I, I think part of 463 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:44,360 that is that like, I think I am a little bit more system 464 00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:46,320 interested. I've said this and Aaron, I 465 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,920 think, I think this isn't contentious to Aaron, but I'm a 466 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:55,280 little bit more like system interested than Aaron is. 467 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,720 And so I think I sometimes spend too much time going deep into 468 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,080 like mechanical concerns. And I think part of that is also 469 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,840 because I make video games and that's very mechanical often. 470 00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:15,000 But but I am very envious of all of the kind of more, I don't 471 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:21,040 know, like mushy, poetic emotional vibes that happen 472 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,120 around because I feel like I'm less good at that. 473 00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:25,360 Like it feels like a skill that I'm significantly less good at 474 00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:28,480 and try to get better at all the time. 475 00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:33,000 But yeah, I'm, I guess this is a story game. 476 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,880 I'm, I'm, I'm backtracking. I'm like, is this like, like are 477 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,960 we more story game focused? Is this I guess I I'm like all 478 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,120 games or story games? Yeah. 479 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,360 Well, no. Well, yes, I mean, we're talking 480 00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:45,800 about like capital S, lowercase S maybe. 481 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,680 And then it comes to story games because. 482 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:48,720 No, there's. Plenty of. 483 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,040 LSR people that would tell you. Not all games are story games. 484 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,800 You can have a story in a game that is not a story game. 485 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,560 But this is definitely a more story driven game for sure. 486 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:02,560 Well, it's interesting because I think about. 487 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,440 This like, oh, sorry, I just think about this as one of my 488 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,560 more mechanical games then, which doesn't mean it's not a 489 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,160 story game. It's just for me leaning more 490 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:17,440 towards like mechanical necessity than than some other 491 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,480 games where like you can take himbos and make your little 492 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,640 characters and then you could ignore everything and just talk 493 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,200 it out. You know, like you can't talk 494 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,400 this one out. You do need some kind of like 495 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,320 record keeping. Yeah. 496 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,160 This is what I definitely want to play because I felt the same 497 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,240 way as I was reading it. When you go through the the 498 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,440 rules portion basically like it does, there is definitely a lean 499 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,320 into like the mechanics, you know, but then as soon as you 500 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,120 get to the actual handbaskets there it is very like. 501 00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:49,120 I felt like I had this like flip in my thinking when I when I 502 00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:51,760 started reading them because I'm like this is very this is so 503 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,520 broad. This is so open, like it is 504 00:27:54,520 --> 00:28:01,760 literally like there's no maps, there's no 'cause I imagine in a 505 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,960 different version of this game from someone else like this, it 506 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,640 would be like 50 pages longer and there would be like 507 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,640 directions and maps and like all the rest of this stuff. 508 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,360 And then you, you flip to the game and then you flip the next 509 00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:17,480 page under a different game. And it's just like, Oh, there's 510 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,600 a lot of a lot of stuff open to interpretation from both the GM 511 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,880 and the players in here. And it it's, it's interesting 512 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:30,720 because a game that's, you know, relatively light can become 513 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,120 heavy for those that aren't used to that sort of play. 514 00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:37,040 And that's one of the things I always think the story games 515 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:38,600 and, and rules like games in general. 516 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,560 I think, I don't remember what we were reviewing when you, when 517 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,680 we talked about this hunter, but sometimes like a game that's 518 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,240 like super light can actually be like extraordinarily heavy for 519 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,440 people that aren't used to that because they don't have all of 520 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,440 that scaffolding for like, but, but how do I do this? 521 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,160 There's no rule specifically for this. 522 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,600 And I'm like, you don't need the rule. 523 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,600 That's fine. Like you can just do whatever 524 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,880 you want. You know, which is in and of 525 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,720 itself is also something that's like can be contentious because 526 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,480 I'm like, that's where I split from. 527 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,400 That's where we have a PBTA split. 528 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,960 I think at least me and Aaron do especially and are thinking of 529 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,520 like the level of scaffolding and stuff that that happens. 530 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,760 But that's, that's an interesting conversation I'd 531 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,800 love to sit down and have with you guys at some point is 532 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,720 scaffolding and games and how it differs from like OSR and PBTA 533 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,200 and story games and everything. I have no idea where I started 534 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,480 that sentence. I feel like part of my goal with 535 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,240 Handbaskets was to just like let myself design what I would think 536 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,200 of as like a 201 game. And I think, 'cause I think that 537 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,160 like, I think a lot of games are 201 games. 538 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,960 A lot of games are not introductions to the hobby, 539 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,280 right? Like and I but they don't own 540 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,640 that. I think a lot of OSR IS2O one 541 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,080 games and they don't really own that. 542 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,280 Like not a super great way to introduce 'cause you are relying 543 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,440 on so much community knowledge, so much like oral history, 544 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,960 blogs, experience, whatever for people to actually like navigate 545 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,440 your game. And sometimes like I think 546 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,560 Himbos is kind of an OK one O 1 game. 547 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,960 I do not think necessarily that Handbaskets is a one O 1 game 548 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:17,040 and and I kind of intentionally let myself live there a little 549 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,120 bit, which is a little bit of like trusting people to break 550 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:20,240 the game, right? I think. 551 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,480 I think even just that framing implies that you would kind of 552 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:30,200 know how games work. And a lot of it for me was also 553 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:36,120 about where I find myself wanting games to sit, which is 554 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:45,000 not ever a 400 page rule book, but is also not nothing like I 555 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:46,760 do. I like tactical combat right? 556 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,280 Like I've I've just got necro molds. 557 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,320 Game's great, but. So bad. 558 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,640 It's so good. I'm so glad that I was 559 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,920 financially irresponsible when that Kickstarter was running. 560 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,400 That's why I didn't get it because I was like, no, I've got 561 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,600 to save money right now. Yeah, I've I've. 562 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:04,600 I've done it 3. Times. 563 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:09,120 Yeah, yeah, it's so good. I love that stuff and I think 564 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,560 that if like I think that, you know, sometimes I think that 565 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,400 that lives in a board game specifically and that they excel 566 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,760 in board game realms better. Like that kind of tactical play, 567 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,480 I think really wants a lot of specific rules. 568 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:29,400 But I did I do like some rules. I just want the rules to 569 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:35,880 meaningfully change the play and I'm not convinced that a lot of 570 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:40,120 games do that. This is this is my PBT argument. 571 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,120 We can have that conversation a whole different time, but I've 572 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,920 never like rolled APBTA move and not had it result in something 573 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,800 that I didn't expect. I have rolled an attack roll 100 574 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,080 million times and had it result exactly in what I expect. 575 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,840 Whether it's fail or success. It's like, I know exactly the 576 00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,760 outcomes that are going to come in this interjection of 577 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:04,200 mechanics, and I like to be surprised if there's gonna be a 578 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,640 mechanical intervention in what I'm doing. 579 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:13,680 And this was kind of a little bit of a, this is me trying to 580 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:19,320 explore the amount of scaffolding that I want as AGM. 581 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:20,720 Which is funny 'cause you mentioned earlier, I'm a way 582 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,000 better game designer than MGM, but I still try to design for 583 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,400 myself sometimes. But yeah, in that often I find 584 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,640 myself reading books and pulling a couple things out of them, 585 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,160 reading an adventure and pulling a couple things out of them, not 586 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,760 ever playing them with all of the elements. 587 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,440 And so I was like, what if I just make a game that explicitly 588 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,240 says pull two of these elements? Like pick the ones that are fun, 589 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:44,960 pick different ones every time you come through it. 590 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,520 What if I just give you a bunch of suggestions and kind of own 591 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,480 that their suggestions? Because I think some of my like 592 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,920 least favorite gaming moments have been when people feel like 593 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:59,560 they need to abide by the rule book and when they're like, oh, 594 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,920 that thing I just thought of would be super fun. 595 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,000 But it conflicts with that other hidden detail that I know about, 596 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,000 but the players don't know about or like this internal logic of 597 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,600 the game or whatever. And this was very much so like, 598 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,440 just say the fun thing. And if it doesn't align, it 599 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,960 doesn't align and you can justify it later. 600 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,480 Or you could not justify it because witchcraft. 601 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,760 I don't know, You know, magic exists. 602 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,920 It's not. It's good for game designs and 603 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:33,360 authors to like expressly give that, and this might kind of in 604 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,040 a way relate to the one O 1 versus 2O1 type of game. 605 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,840 Where whoever is. Writing the and the author of 606 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:43,080 the game like gives that license like explicitly to the reader to 607 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,400 like hey, here's how the game is run, how I run it. 608 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,800 If something else works better at your table, you should do 609 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,840 that. I feel like that makes a major 610 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:54,640 difference for how. People. 611 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,800 Determine those moments where they're like, Oh no, whether 612 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,360 it's written this way. And I feel like that kind of 613 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,920 relates back to like if you play one O one games, the one O one 614 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,920 games should give you that and two O one games should kind of 615 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,880 assume like, oh, you should know, you know. 616 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:17,560 Yeah, yeah. I so I think I've thoughts 617 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:18,639 right? Of course I do. 618 00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:23,880 But like the I think one of the issues with the space in general 619 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,280 is part of the newness of it, but also like a lack of 620 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,280 direction as a field, right? Like if I want to make a board 621 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:34,639 game, I could buy 100 books right now on how to make a board 622 00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:37,199 game. Like if I just want game design 623 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:41,760 in general, I can buy 100 books. But as far as like TTRPG game 624 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,080 design, there really is no resource for that. 625 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,120 Like specifically, a lot of the people that you a lot of the 626 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,400 people that what should be making really good books have 627 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,560 actually exiled themselves from the space. 628 00:34:54,760 --> 00:35:00,280 But there's just a lack. Most of our field is in blogs in 629 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,880 for the last 15 years, you know, and no one's really put it 630 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:04,320 together or made thoughts about it. 631 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:11,640 So the we get this constant like rehashing of the same stuff over 632 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,600 and over again because you get all these people that are like 633 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,760 discovering something for the first time that's been around 634 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,320 for 20 years. So it's an interesting space to 635 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,120 be because when you get to have the same system matters 636 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,360 discourse every three months because someone just discovered 637 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,200 it for the first time. It would be nice to have like a 638 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,120 book out there that had like NDTTRPG is for W is like the 639 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,000 thing you're making isn't new, but just make it in a new way 640 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:41,880 and it it, I don't even know where I'm going with this or 641 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:46,880 what happened, but it's just an interesting space to be in where 642 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:50,440 like I said, there is nothing really. 643 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,960 There is no North Star I think in the TRPG space. 644 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,040 And the difference between one-on-one games and two on one 645 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,040 games, I feel a lot of it is experience and assume knowledge. 646 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,080 That's what that's what I should have wrote there instead of 647 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:02,800 textbook. That would have been better. 648 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,200 But even within what we're talking about, there's a lot of, 649 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,160 there's a level of assumed knowledge where we're like, 650 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,120 well, people should just know that you can just like hack your 651 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:10,240 own thing. And it's just like, no, people 652 00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:13,040 don't know that they just got into this like four months ago 653 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,240 or six months ago or a year ago and every game they played like 654 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,440 isn't built that way. So even the idea of being like 655 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,680 you can, you can hack it, do whatever. 656 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,800 I still, I feel like is still a bit of like assumed knowledge 657 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,760 for people even knowing how to do that. 658 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,840 You know, in inter mirror brightly, actually the pay we me 659 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:33,960 and Hunter talked about it a bunch. 660 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,280 There's a page that talks about like if it's uninteresting, like 661 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,600 you can do something different, but then there's like a whole 662 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,640 other like more to the page about like what you can do. 663 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,640 And I'm like, this is such a great way to have like AA101 664 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,160 style thing where it's like not only we've all we all know this, 665 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,840 we've read a million games, you've written them a bunch, but 666 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,720 they're like, you can hack it. But here's also how is is a is a 667 00:36:57,720 --> 00:36:59,840 really good a good thing to have. 668 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:06,160 And I think when there isn't that North star of direction for 669 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,600 people, the assumed knowledge I think is one of the the pitfalls 670 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:14,920 that happens a lot in the space. Yeah, I hate a just make it up 671 00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:17,200 prompt. It's not it's not, it's not 672 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,040 helpful. There's like I don't that text 673 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,720 to me does nothing. And so one of the things that I 674 00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:26,520 like was thinking about with this is like the list of this 675 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,920 list went through many different names and it went through many 676 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,840 different, but each each handbasket, please write an RPG 677 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:37,320 manifesto, Aaron each. So the game, the way the game 678 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,040 works is they're central rules. And then you have these 679 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,160 handbaskets that are kind of mini games and they call come 680 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,440 with their own rules. And I standardized all of the 681 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,760 rules that come with them. And one of the sections that 682 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,560 come that comes with them is rule secrets and complications. 683 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,240 And these are mainly suggestions. 684 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:54,920 You could take them as hard things if you wanted, but it's 685 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:59,640 mainly a pick list of what you think is fun and I and which is 686 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:04,120 because for me, the you can change this if you want. 687 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,920 But if you're just flipping to this page and you need some 688 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,440 help, here's something you can pull to actually help you. 689 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,000 Like if you don't want to make it up, here's a bunch of cool 690 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:20,400 stuff, which I feel like is where I sit often. 691 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,920 We, I think often about, we read a book on RTFM called The Witch 692 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,160 of Lindisfarm and it has this weird. 693 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:29,960 It's like a scene based. There's some scene stuff 694 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:35,080 happening and it has these vignettes and they're just I 695 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,160 took issue with them and I don't remember why 'cause it was a 696 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,000 long time ago on the podcast. But they have stuck out at for 697 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,840 me as like an interesting mechanical component where I 698 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,360 think one of them was like a knife embedded in a tree. 699 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:52,240 And it's just these like little images that you pull from to 700 00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:55,760 play off of. And I find that they were like 701 00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:00,440 super evocative and most of what I want from a game is something 702 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,760 like a knife embedded in the base of a tree. 703 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:04,600 Like that is most of what I want your game. 704 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,080 Look, it's just this tiny little snippet that I can pull out 705 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:15,160 because what I what I need help with as AGM is when I get stuck. 706 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,760 That is the main reason I need a rule book is for the moments 707 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,000 when I don't know what to do. And what I want then is 708 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,160 something that is like narratively compelling or 709 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:31,080 interesting or evocative or like, you know, environmental or 710 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:32,360 whatever. Like it's that moment when my 711 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,640 brain blanks and you're like, I don't need do a role and make up 712 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,240 the answer. I need something to put in here. 713 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,520 I need you to give me a like actual like, you know, like I I 714 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:49,000 need something concrete when I'm stuck, not just do whatever you 715 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,760 want. See, that's the crux right there 716 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,520 because I feel like you get to that, like not you just the, 717 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,880 the, the broad you people get to that point. 718 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,560 And I feel like that point right there, especially for PBTA is, 719 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,440 is like so structure. So structure this for me a 720 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,400 little bit like give me the pick list or give me these options. 721 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,480 And that point right there is where I go. 722 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,080 I don't want any of that structure whatever I want to be 723 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,080 able to do whatever I want and go it. 724 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,080 It feel like that is the divergent point right there. 725 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,080 I want to be able to make up whatever I want like on the 726 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,640 spot. And I don't want to feel to me 727 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:29,560 that the kind of PBTA move style feels like a cage almost because 728 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,120 at that, at that exact point where I go, I can do whatever I 729 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,040 want, you know, and you can in PBTA with some of the narrative 730 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:36,920 stuff, but I do feel like it narrows it in. 731 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,040 And I feel like we, we, I think I feel like maybe in your 732 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,560 discord, this came up before and I was like, ah, now I understand 733 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,720 now I get it. Now I get why, you know, some 734 00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:47,320 people think this way and some people think that way. 735 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,080 And I think that is literally the crux of it right there. 736 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,640 It's just when, when that moment happens, I want absolute 737 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:56,400 freedom. And some people want more 738 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,120 structure to it. Like don't just tell me, make it 739 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:00,640 up. Like give me a little bit of 740 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:01,680 something. So. 741 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,520 Yeah, I think again, we are going to have to have this 742 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,160 episode at some point. But I think what I find Pbta 743 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,440 does really good is in that moment where I'm stuck, it asks 744 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:16,080 really interesting questions, but that is dependent on whether 745 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,680 or not it's well written Pbta. And that is a whole other 746 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,200 different thing. But I find the mechanics of Pbta 747 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,560 interject a a question that I would not have thought of and 748 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,800 asking, which brings up answers that I would not have thought of 749 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:30,920 answering both me and the players. 750 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:36,200 And that's, and I can see how 'cause it is, it is condensed, 751 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,080 it is confined, it's not, it's not open to everything. 752 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:44,000 But when those, when those questions align with the like 753 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,000 theme of the game, I find them super good. 754 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,400 And but that doesn't mean they all do that. 755 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,040 But that's a total tangent. Well, that's, I mean, every, 756 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,680 everyone I know that's a big PBTA ad says that there's a 757 00:41:57,720 --> 00:41:59,480 million PBTA S and four good ones. 758 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,920 Yeah, so. The PVTA is really hard. 759 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:08,080 It's so much harder to make than other game types. 760 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:13,280 OSR shit is so easy. It is so easy. 761 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,280 Just pick a mechanic from one of the 700 established mechanics 762 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,600 and add a bunch of adjectives together and you have an OSR 763 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,480 scene. And this is not like, and I'm 764 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,360 not saying that's not good and it can't be great, but it like 765 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,120 is like significant. The barrier is significantly 766 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,080 lower than writing something that is genuinely evocative. 767 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:36,400 It is a It is a harder exercise of game design to make a PBTA 768 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:40,520 move than it is to make an OSR. I'm gonna now make a PBETA hack 769 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,280 and I'm gonna send you it and be like, what? 770 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:43,400 Do it? What do you think about this 771 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:44,560 motherfucker? You're gonna. 772 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,680 Say that and then you're gonna sit down to write a move, and 773 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,520 then you're gonna spend 8 hours researching how to write a move 774 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:50,960 and you're gonna be like fuck this, I'm not doing. 775 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:55,080 Oh, I just just just bookmark that one tweet, Yeah. 776 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,200 Yeah. Yeah, No, there's, there are 777 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,680 some great moves, Guy I, I do. I do think that that actually 778 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:05,200 does make a lot of sense and that's probably why PBTA falls 779 00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:09,640 off so hard some of the time. The OSR is really is like pick a 780 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:13,480 mechanic and pick a few other mechanics that fit in to create 781 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,560 your game and then just pay color them a certain thing. 782 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,920 So a bunch of drugs and write down what you see and you got 783 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:26,440 OSR, right like that. So do you not find PBTA to be 784 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,640 restrictive? I don't. 785 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,760 I don't have a problem with games being restrictive 'cause 786 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,200 they 'cause I actually want them to be more restrictive, because 787 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,080 I'm not. What I want to play when I'm 788 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,280 playing a game is the game designer's creative expression, 789 00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,880 not necessarily mine. If I wanted to play mine, I 790 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:48,840 probably wouldn't pick somebody else's game. 791 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,440 Why would somebody else know what I want to play in my game? 792 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,440 That's an unreasonable expectation. 793 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:58,360 I want to experience what they are trying to communicate, 794 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,840 right? Like Aaron is Aaron runs games, 795 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,000 makes games, does all kinds of game stuff that I would never 796 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,720 make up of my own accord. And so when I play an Aaron 797 00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:09,920 game, I'm like, I want to see Aaron's creative. 798 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:14,000 I want to like poke around in Aaron's brain a little bit. 799 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,480 So if it's confined to Aaron the way Aaron thinks, that's that's 800 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:22,920 a plus to me, right? Like that's and, and, and I 801 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,800 think usually, I don't know, I found that some of the games 802 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,840 that I think are way stronger are much more solid in that 803 00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:31,880 perspective, right? I really like games that have a 804 00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:37,440 unique perspective on something and that will like necessarily 805 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:41,520 in some way be restricted if I wanted to play a classic fantasy 806 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,400 game. Yeah, maybe there's an argument 807 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:44,520 because. And that is true, right? 808 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:46,440 Like I think most classic fantasy games kind of are all 809 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:52,640 the same classic fantasy game and or like when I play them, 810 00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:55,760 they probably all feel the same because what I want to play is 811 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:57,800 my version of the classic fantasy game, right? 812 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,000 And so it doesn't. I don't think that the 813 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:05,240 experience of playing D&D versus playing dungeon crawl versus 814 00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:08,360 playing into the odd whatever is inherently that different when 815 00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:12,280 I'm GM ING. I do think that like, you know, 816 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:18,920 playing pasiones, Pasiones is like so fundamentally different 817 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:23,120 than playing DCC. That is such a different thing 818 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,080 that is never, I could never get there with DCC, right. 819 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:33,040 And I do think that that to me is interesting and often it 820 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,160 pushes my own boundaries and that's a little uncomfortable. 821 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,960 But sometimes I like I but I want to be better at having my 822 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,000 boundaries pushed, not put that on the game. 823 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:41,480 You know, like I would like to be better. 824 00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:45,200 I would like to flex the muscle of being uncomfortable because I 825 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,080 don't know how to express express romance or whatever, you 826 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:55,600 know, yeah, and it and it so I think it's more about like I 827 00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,440 have different expectations of confinement kind of going into 828 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:06,360 different games and I and when I fight them on and not games are 829 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:12,080 not very good at telling you what what that is like aren't 830 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,400 very good at pitching you on like what your experience or 831 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,280 confinement or what the vision is going to be. 832 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,920 And so I don't think I think there's a lot of friction to be 833 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:24,000 found in your own expectations if you're going into something 834 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:25,800 like that. And so I think that those little 835 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,600 blurbs about what the whole game is about frequently I don't find 836 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,720 a match up with what the game actually like makes me want to 837 00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:37,040 play. But I do find that some of them 838 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,320 is like, that's exactly why I'm here, right? 839 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:44,560 Like playing, I don't know, something big like the Quiet 840 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,920 Year or like beak, feather and bone, like those, like they're 841 00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,480 very, very structured. And I really had a hard time 842 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,960 with that when I was like off randing from D and DI had like a 843 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:57,120 very hard time getting into what those games wanted me to do. 844 00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,160 And some of them I don't like, but I still think they're good 845 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:00,280 games. They're just not the game I want 846 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,680 to play, right? Like I don't necessarily love 847 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:04,680 playing The Quiet year. I'm so happy it exists. 848 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,400 I'm so happy that so many people love playing it, but it's not 849 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,720 like the kind of story I want to tell. 850 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,760 But I don't think that's a failing of the game. 851 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,320 That's just a like mismatch, right? 852 00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:17,440 Like we're just, we're speed dating and I'm moving on. 853 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,000 Like it's not, you know, like it's. 854 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,920 Yeah, yeah. I mean that, you know, at some 855 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,200 point I'll blog and at some point I'll talk about why system 856 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,320 matters and then also doesn't matter at all. 857 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:33,280 But I think that's part of it. Aaron, I had mentioned in chat J 858 00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,600 Dragon's article about the puppy girl in the cage. 859 00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,520 And I really think it just comes down to like how big a cage you 860 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:45,680 want, you know, and it's all the, I just feel like it's such 861 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:47,960 a just a cyclical argument. It's like everyone's saying the 862 00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:49,600 same thing, just in like a slightly different way. 863 00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,200 And, but I, I do feel like that's what comes down to like 864 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,520 the rules are there for a reason. 865 00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:59,520 And it's the engagement with those rules and the way that you 866 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,280 both engage them and choose not to is what creates the friction 867 00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:04,080 in the game that'll that makes the game. 868 00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:08,440 You know, and some people want a smaller cage so they can bounce 869 00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:10,960 off the walls a little bit more frequently. 870 00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:15,360 And some people want like, you know, just give me a yard and a 871 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:17,640 shot collar and I'll figure out where the borders are. 872 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:20,680 You know what I mean? So it's just an interesting you 873 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,680 take that that Jay had with with that. 874 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,360 And I love that article and completely agreed with it. 875 00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:30,160 And then I feel like someone like Aaron, I don't know if they 876 00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,680 agreed or, or disagreed with that, but I feel like they could 877 00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:35,640 read it and be like, yes, and it's like we're both saying the 878 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:37,400 exact same thing and agree on the exact same thing. 879 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,040 But then we'll also play two very different games all the 880 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,560 time. So it's, it's, it's a, it's an 881 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:47,960 interesting thought about games and how how people engage with 882 00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,160 them. It's like what pops in my head a 883 00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,240 bunch is like tag, like when I was a kid, like tag is tag, 884 00:48:53,240 --> 00:48:54,920 right? Except that stuck in the mud is 885 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,840 incredibly different from Amoeba, you know what I mean? 886 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,320 But you're all still running around, you know? 887 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:01,640 And that's, that's what I thought about it. 888 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:04,000 Are you serious? You never played? 889 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,080 Yeah, I. Know I know what amoeba is but. 890 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:10,000 Yeah, second mud is when you get when you get tagged, you have to 891 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,600 stop like you're stuck in the mud and someone has to crawl 892 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,680 like underneath your legs to like free you from the mud. 893 00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:19,160 OK. But you can get tagged while 894 00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:20,280 you're trying to crawl underneath. 895 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:22,440 So yeah, it's like, it's like freeze tag. 896 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:23,400 Yeah. And, well, no. 897 00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,040 What like a different way to like unstick them or whatever? 898 00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:29,760 Yeah, I love tag. That was that was not the crux 899 00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,200 of that whole statement, but that was the bar was like, what 900 00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:33,960 the fuck is that, you know? Did you know? 901 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:35,400 Did you know what stuck in the? What is Max? 902 00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:36,640 No, we did not play that. We did. 903 00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:40,120 We did amoeba and red rubber. So I feel like everybody has 904 00:49:40,240 --> 00:49:42,920 their different local whatever weird tag thing. 905 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,160 Christian and Chad said Ryan was a real tag head. 906 00:49:49,240 --> 00:49:51,200 Love me some tag you know this has. 907 00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:52,600 Been a really interesting conversation. 908 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,480 Max, I, I, I obviously like, you know, Ryan and I referenced that 909 00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:58,800 we're all, we're working on our own personal projects and, and 910 00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:01,240 you know, I have no expectations for how big my own personal 911 00:50:01,240 --> 00:50:04,920 project gets. But like you talking about how 912 00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:09,200 you see like the confinement of certain rules as like a positive 913 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:12,920 because you want to like experience that person's idea of 914 00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:15,120 what the experience they want to give out is not how I've been 915 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:16,680 thinking about designing my own game. 916 00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,080 And I really appreciate that insight. 917 00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:24,560 Like I feel like I just did a shroom strip in my like reality 918 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:26,440 was expanded by a small percentage, you know? 919 00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,560 It's me, I'm shrooms. Yeah, yeah. 920 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,040 I mean, I think it like, funnily enough, it goes back to that 921 00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:38,360 whole idea of like, are CTRP GS art 'cause if the answer is yes, 922 00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:41,760 then I want to experience your artistic output, right? 923 00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,280 Like when I go to experience art, I'm meeting it on its 924 00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:50,960 terms. When I go to solve a puzzle, 925 00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,200 sometimes that's a little different, right? 926 00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,800 Like when I they're not, they're the goals are not always the 927 00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,240 same. And I'm also not always in the 928 00:50:59,240 --> 00:51:00,640 same mood. Like sometimes I'm like, you 929 00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:02,480 know what I want to do? I want to go play Apex Legends. 930 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,240 And other times I'm like, I would like to be really confused 931 00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:06,640 about what the game I'm playing is. 932 00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,960 And I do think that those are and I do think that frequently 933 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,320 like the big fantasy heartbreaker is Apex Legends, 934 00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:14,320 right? Like you are going in with a lot 935 00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:18,720 of understandings about what this convention of game is 936 00:51:18,720 --> 00:51:21,120 because an Apex here is a stand in for every first person 937 00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:22,920 shooter. Like they're all kind of the 938 00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:27,360 same or very similar, at least in your engagement with them. 939 00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,440 Yes, sometimes, according to Aaron, sometimes I want to get 940 00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:34,000 drunk and play Skyrim for the 100th time. 941 00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:37,440 Yeah, like some things are very comforting and sometimes. 942 00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:39,120 And I. And part of this is also like, 943 00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,400 yeah, I thought I knew what I liked when I was playing 944 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:43,640 Dungeons and Dragons for 10 years. 945 00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:45,480 And that was not, I knew what I liked. 946 00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:48,440 That was, I only know a couple things exist, right? 947 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:53,320 And, and for me, it is hard for me to confidently sit in. 948 00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:57,760 I know every possible experience and therefore I know which ones 949 00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,000 I like best. I know some that I like. 950 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:01,840 I know I know things I have enjoyed. 951 00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:03,520 I know like, you know, like, there's a lot of stuff that I 952 00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:06,280 can say about my own tastes. But part of that is also 953 00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,720 acknowledging that there's so much that I don't know and I 954 00:52:09,720 --> 00:52:15,160 kind of want to try it out. And I think it, but that is also 955 00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:18,360 like, that's a vulnerable ask, right? 956 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,040 Like that. And that I'm not always down to 957 00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:21,480 be vulnerable when I'm playing games. 958 00:52:22,240 --> 00:52:25,320 And so I'm not always down to like play new games and like 959 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:26,880 experience. And I have played games where 960 00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:30,680 I've thought I was down for that and then have gotten into the 961 00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,200 game playing of it and have been like, oh, actually what I really 962 00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,520 wanted was something like comforting and familiar. 963 00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:38,280 And I'm sorry. And now I'm gonna ruin, probably 964 00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:41,080 ruin our experience to like our ability to meet this game where 965 00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,360 it is because I'm bringing all of these ideas. 966 00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:48,520 And I feel like, yeah, I'm not always super good at 967 00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:50,960 communicating those things, but I do have those weird. 968 00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:57,160 I I have many wolves. All of the wolves live inside me 969 00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:00,640 except for the except for the really romantic ones. 970 00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,720 No, it's, it's, I mean, it definitely is that, you know, I 971 00:53:04,720 --> 00:53:09,760 mean, even if you look at other types of media, like people have 972 00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:12,640 comfort TV shows, like I've watched the office like 18 973 00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,240 times, you know, but sometimes I want to put on a, a three hour 974 00:53:15,240 --> 00:53:17,520 long, a 24 film and just not understand what the fuck is 975 00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:20,320 going on for a little while, you know, But I mean, it also comes 976 00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,720 down to like every one of us knows 20 drinking games and 977 00:53:23,720 --> 00:53:27,000 every one of us knows 18 card games and there's still people 978 00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,040 out there that only play D&D, you know what I mean? 979 00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:33,240 It's but I think it does come to a lot of that vulnerability and 980 00:53:33,240 --> 00:53:35,480 and the urge to play. But like I know every time I've 981 00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,120 ever learned a new card game, someone explains the rules to me 982 00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,320 and I still have no idea what the fuck is going on for like 4 983 00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:42,880 hands. And then you get it and you'll 984 00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:45,120 go, oh, OK. And I think that people think 985 00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:50,520 that the like that that is that is a common human experience. 986 00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:53,680 And I think that some people just don't either see it that 987 00:53:53,680 --> 00:54:00,320 way or want to take that level of T TRPGS to just be like, I 988 00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:03,000 don't know what's going on for a little while and that's okay, 989 00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:11,920 but some people do and. I will do a thing. 990 00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,360 I will defend something that nobody's currently attacking 991 00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:16,320 right now. Maybe it's just me starting 992 00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:20,400 discourse, but one of the reasons that I think about these 993 00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:23,520 things this way is because I do exist frequently in academia. 994 00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:28,320 And what academia in relation to games means for me is like are 995 00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:30,720 are my experience in it, which I do not think is a universal 996 00:54:30,720 --> 00:54:37,560 experience at all, is that it is about exploring the medium and 997 00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:40,680 the communication tools and then also integrating a lot of the 998 00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:45,320 design that is possible. And a lot of the products that 999 00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:49,560 exist on the commercial side of games are replicating things for 1000 00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:52,400 sellability and are not actually interested in exploring it. 1001 00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,280 And most consumers are not looking for something new, 1002 00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:57,120 right? It's not about having a new 1003 00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:58,680 experience. And so I think that these things 1004 00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,120 feed into each other in like a really clear way. 1005 00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:05,640 And like my big, which is mainly just like we do not actually 1006 00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:08,640 understand or have a lot of references, you know, are 1007 00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:10,200 getting back to what you were saying, but we don't have a lot 1008 00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:14,520 of references for design patterns for RPGs. 1009 00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:22,960 We have D&D design think pieces, which is such a small like if 1010 00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:27,240 you think about the number of games that exist, not how many 1011 00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:30,800 people play each games, D&D is non existent, right? 1012 00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:32,960 Like it's not a blip when we look at all those charts about 1013 00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:34,640 like how popular it is in those kinds of games. 1014 00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:37,960 There's still such a small percentage of all the possible 1015 00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:40,800 game designs that could exist and do exist in the world. 1016 00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:44,000 And I feel like sometimes my frustration with like the indie 1017 00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:48,520 sphere is that it's not even the indie sphere. 1018 00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:51,240 My frustration with players I love stating with people who 1019 00:55:51,240 --> 00:55:59,600 play RPGs, myself included, is generally like not not I. 1020 00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:02,040 I guess I maybe, and maybe it is just that I don't understand 1021 00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:03,720 being that person who wants to play the same game every day. 1022 00:56:03,720 --> 00:56:06,520 Like I when I play video games, I don't want to play the same 1023 00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:08,040 video game. When I watch movies, I watch 1024 00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,960 different movies more than I watch the same movie, you know, 1025 00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:12,960 and that like I can want to watch a comfort movie. 1026 00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:16,200 I'm still more frequently than not watching a different movie. 1027 00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,600 And same goes for video games. But like, I know some people 1028 00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:21,720 that spend their whole lives playing exclusively Fortnite. 1029 00:56:21,720 --> 00:56:23,520 So fine. I just don't want to be in 1030 00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:25,960 design conversations or in community largely with people 1031 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:27,880 who want to play the same thing over and over again all the 1032 00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:29,840 time. Like we're not we don't have a 1033 00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,880 shared interest. If what you like is Fortnite, I 1034 00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:35,280 like video games you like, right? 1035 00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:38,240 Like it's a different thing. And I think that that often 1036 00:56:38,240 --> 00:56:44,520 sometimes hurts or like the designers often often like 1037 00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:49,000 inhibit themselves preempting that community, preempting that 1038 00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,400 like commercial ship existing. And I, and I think that that 1039 00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:56,320 does a disservice to games as a whole. 1040 00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:01,000 And 'cause I also think that like the line between this is, 1041 00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:03,000 again, this isn't just not my high horse, but the line between 1042 00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,800 like what is a tabletop RVG and what is a LARP and what is AVR 1043 00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:07,720 game and what is an AR game? Like none of these things 1044 00:57:07,720 --> 00:57:10,960 matter. These lines don't matter and 1045 00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:14,560 there is and as we like exist in this world where all of these 1046 00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:18,240 things can be very blurry and you can like have technological 1047 00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:20,880 interventions or analog interventions into technology 1048 00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:24,000 and all of these things like we have to develop better language 1049 00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,960 for what we're talking about when we're talking about games 1050 00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:30,200 that isn't based on its technology, which I think is 1051 00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:32,600 like, I mean, we need to have better tools for talking about 1052 00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:34,240 the world that isn't based in its technology, right. 1053 00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:36,000 Like a video game. Oh, you play it on a screen. 1054 00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:38,240 Great, congratulations. That doesn't actually tell us a 1055 00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:41,640 whole lot about video games. How many of these games require 1056 00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:43,120 a tabletop? When was the last time you 1057 00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:46,640 played a game on a tabletop? Was it discord? 1058 00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:49,680 Because that's not a tabletop like these like this whole and I 1059 00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,360 know we use analog games, but like, what does that even mean? 1060 00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:55,040 It's fine. I just think that all of these 1061 00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:59,600 kind of categories and, and design conversations we have are 1062 00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:04,400 very inhibited, inhibited by our lack of language. 1063 00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:08,160 And our lack of language, I think kind of retroactively or 1064 00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:13,400 reflexively like hurts our design brains, convinces us in 1065 00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:15,560 our design brain that we're already stuck in these small 1066 00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:17,960 amounts of tools to kind of explore. 1067 00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:24,480 I bet you do, Christian. I bet you do. 1068 00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:27,440 Yeah, no, I, I, I completely agree. 1069 00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:29,920 And I think that's one of the biggest problems with the space 1070 00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:32,760 is people that think that they the way that they play the game 1071 00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:34,040 is the only right way to play the game. 1072 00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:37,480 And then they like talk to you as if you're playing the game 1073 00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:41,720 wrong because you're not playing the very narrow band of style of 1074 00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:46,680 game that they play. Hence most discourse you like 1075 00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:49,080 you're not playing it exactly the way that I choose to play 1076 00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:50,520 it. So you're wrong and I'm going to 1077 00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:52,920 write all these ways about how you're wrong and then just one 1078 00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:56,840 of like the, it's so stifling. Like it, it will never stop 1079 00:58:56,840 --> 00:59:00,440 putting like shackles on the entire space. 1080 00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:04,640 If you have all these people saying that the way you're 1081 00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:06,560 playing the game is wrong because it's not the way that I 1082 00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:08,920 play the game as opposed to just understanding it's different. 1083 00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:12,400 Like I, I, I, I don't know, I wasn't in the space at the time, 1084 00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:15,360 but I can't imagine all the Monopoly heads were yelling at 1085 00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:17,120 Gloom Haven saying it wasn't a board game. 1086 00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:19,960 You know what I mean? Like that just it makes no sense 1087 00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:21,360 to me. Monopoly heads. 1088 00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:24,120 Monopoly heads. Yeah. 1089 00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:26,440 Yeah. And I think that, like I think 1090 00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:29,640 it's a shame because I think discourse at its heart, not 1091 00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:34,240 discourse, but the colloquial term is quite required for us to 1092 00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:36,400 develop the craft of TPTRPGS, right? 1093 00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,400 Like we do need to be in discussion with one another and 1094 00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:41,720 we do need to not sit in our isolated little rooms being 1095 00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:43,920 like, I'm doing this for the first time ever. 1096 00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:47,200 Like, you know, like there, there is an importance in 1097 00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:51,160 exploring what already exists and exploring the statements and 1098 00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:52,520 ideas that people are already having. 1099 00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:54,640 And it's the internet's fault that we can't do that in any 1100 00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:56,680 kind of healthy way, which I think is why a lot of people 1101 00:59:56,680 --> 01:00:00,360 talk about like the forge era or whatever, which sounded equally 1102 01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:01,720 toxic because it was just a bunch of dudes. 1103 01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:07,640 But but it it was a it when it is talked about romantically, 1104 01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:09,960 and I have no idea how authentic this is because I was not 1105 01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:13,200 involved in the forge. There is this idea of. 1106 01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:18,640 Kind of investigating some of the language and tool sets and 1107 01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:24,720 theories and ideas of RPGs and I think that Twitter was not a 1108 01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:26,800 good place to try and carry on that one. 1109 01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:28,920 No, Twitter's great for that. That was our. 1110 01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:30,760 Great. Yeah, that's super good. 1111 01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:35,160 But yeah, I don't know. That's a very large tangent 1112 01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:38,120 about the theory of RPGs, but I have a lot of, I think a lot 1113 01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:43,080 about it. It is my job and I am a person 1114 01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:48,400 who really likes theory and also research and craft and all that 1115 01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:49,800 stuff. And so you should write A blog 1116 01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:51,800 because I actually think blogs are one of the very few places 1117 01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:54,280 where people don't fight about things. 1118 01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:57,560 They just say what they think and are very like, take it or 1119 01:00:57,560 --> 01:00:59,960 leave it or like, even if they're, even if they're like 1120 01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:03,200 arguing against something because arguing against 1121 01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:05,400 something sometimes highlights just as many things as arguing 1122 01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:06,480 for. So like that is an important 1123 01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:08,440 part of that discussion also. But I think that when you're 1124 01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:10,600 saying this is my little platform, this is my little 1125 01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:13,120 corner of the Internet, and I'm going to speak all my opinions 1126 01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:16,160 here, totally fine. You could be, you could say as 1127 01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:20,560 many, like I think this game design sucks as you want on your 1128 01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:22,400 little blog. I think that's what blogs are 1129 01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:24,840 good for. I mean, you can, but then people 1130 01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:27,600 are, the people are gonna argue in your comment section and on 1131 01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:29,720 Twitter about it afterwards. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. 1132 01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:32,240 I think blogs are amazing. I love there's so many good 1133 01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:38,800 blogs out now and there's so many good theory in blogs from 1134 01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:42,280 Forgera on whether the people writing them were, you know, 1135 01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:47,560 chuds or not. The a lot of the theory at least 1136 01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:51,600 exists and it exists, like I said, in the space in blogs. 1137 01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:54,840 I think blogging is fantastic. We, I, there are a lot of great 1138 01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:56,800 bloggers out there and people that write a lot of great stuff. 1139 01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:03,960 I just like I said, it's always this war about like, I don't 1140 01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:05,240 even know. I don't it doesn't matter. 1141 01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:08,280 Anyone that listens to the podcast gets opinions all the 1142 01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:11,240 time and that's fine. But I, I, this discussion is the 1143 01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:13,880 kind of discussion I would love to have a lot more of, you know, 1144 01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,240 and this is one of the reasons I love RTFM podcast so much is 1145 01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:18,600 because, I mean, I'm a systems guy. 1146 01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:20,400 Hunter's more of a systems guy too. 1147 01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:23,400 Like we really love digging into systems here on the podcast. 1148 01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:28,720 And then we get RTFM to listen to more of the theory crafting 1149 01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:32,600 and the ideations and like discussions on even like ethics 1150 01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:35,040 and morals and a lot of stuff with gaming and, and things like 1151 01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:36,000 that. There's so. 1152 01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:38,240 Much covered anal Wizards, you know. 1153 01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:39,560 Yeah. Yeah, thank you. 1154 01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:43,560 We're doing the Lord's work. The Anal Lord's work. 1155 01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:46,240 With the the sexy season, you know. 1156 01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:48,200 Yeah, the sexy season continues. We're trying. 1157 01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:52,000 I also really like systems. I just think systems are more 1158 01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:54,320 amorphous and fuzzy than we think of them as. 1159 01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:57,920 Like I think that, you know, a lot of the a lot of the things 1160 01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:01,280 that we use is like, I think most of the book is a system 1161 01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:06,280 frequently. But I also, yeah, I do. 1162 01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:10,320 I do really like systems. It's I feel like it's a dirty 1163 01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:14,040 Oh, it's only I only do this in response to I'm I'm pre empting 1164 01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:20,360 Aaron's response, which is. I love how you're on our show 1165 01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:23,080 right now and you and Aaron are still kind of having a back and 1166 01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:24,720 forth through the chat. Aaron. 1167 01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:27,760 Lives in my mind. Aaron's actually not real. 1168 01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:31,120 Only Aaron is a robot that I've created on the Internet. 1169 01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:37,280 Yeah. But yes, I feel like it's 1170 01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:40,040 because we talk all the time that it's impossible for me to 1171 01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:43,920 not acknowledge that so much of my idea is developed in 1172 01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:45,280 Conversate. Like so much of what I think 1173 01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:47,760 about these things is developed either on the podcast or in the 1174 01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:49,600 response to Aaron and I discussing things. 1175 01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:52,440 And so I have to, for better or worse. 1176 01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:55,600 God, if I was only more clever, Ryan would have those well. 1177 01:03:58,520 --> 01:04:01,800 No, no Hunter. Hunter's a fantastic Co host 1178 01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:04,000 here on the show. I wouldn't be able to do what I 1179 01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:07,800 do without without him. And it's really cool that you 1180 01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:10,720 have have Aaron to do that too. And that, like I said, we get to 1181 01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:12,840 listen to it. I don't know if I said enough on 1182 01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:16,000 the RTFM podcast. Go listen to it on where where 1183 01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:18,720 all your podcasts are sold. Really, really fantastic. 1184 01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:22,600 I'm still going through past episodes it whenever I'm sitting 1185 01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:23,880 at work. I'm just like, all right, it's 1186 01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:26,680 time to put on RTFM right now and I'll just sit and listen to 1187 01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:32,480 you know, Max and I don't know, I I still need to finish the was 1188 01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:34,880 it vice and virtue episode. Man who? 1189 01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:37,840 A lot of a lot of boob. A lot of boobs in that book, a 1190 01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:42,680 lot of boobs. But but yeah, no, it's I, I wish 1191 01:04:42,680 --> 01:04:44,240 more people had this kind of conversations. 1192 01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:46,280 I'd love to have more conversations like this on the 1193 01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:50,880 show and love to get more people together to have these kind of 1194 01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:52,760 conversations a little bit more like it would be really 1195 01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:56,280 interesting to have you. Have you read like, I think it's 1196 01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:58,640 just called D6 from Adam Vas and it will, we're bringing it all 1197 01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:00,000 the way back to Adam Vas, as we often do. 1198 01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:02,720 Have you read that that little two pager that they put out? 1199 01:05:03,240 --> 01:05:05,800 I have not. It's just a really great little 1200 01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:09,120 little scene that just talks about like the D6 and like all 1201 01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:11,680 the ways you can roll it and the interesting things you can do 1202 01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:13,160 and like a little bit of theory and a lot of math. 1203 01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:15,640 And like all the I would love if there was like something like 1204 01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:18,480 that for just indie teach RPGs for dummies, where we could have 1205 01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:21,360 a whole chapter on theory crafting and a whole chapter on 1206 01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:23,920 like how D sixes, D 10s and D twelves and stuff work. 1207 01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:26,760 And you know, and then just put bringing together a bunch of 1208 01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:29,040 like the the big important blogs in the scene. 1209 01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:30,680 That would be let's let's let's make it. 1210 01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:33,280 Let's write a book. Let's make this happen, Mr. I 1211 01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:35,600 do, I do in fact, like writing books. 1212 01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:38,960 It has, it has happened. Yeah. 1213 01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:41,160 I mean, I think that's why it's, it's hard 'cause I think there 1214 01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:48,120 is, it's like expensive. But I, I do think this is also 1215 01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:52,120 the value of like magazine style scenes, you know, like not game 1216 01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:54,920 scenes, but like here's a bunch of I do. 1217 01:05:54,920 --> 01:06:01,880 I will also plug splat Splatzine I think is in issue 5 now and 1218 01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:03,840 they get a bunch of different folks together to kind of chat 1219 01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:05,560 about like different experiences. 1220 01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:12,520 They have different themes. And so each, each each version 1221 01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:15,520 may appeal or not appeal depending on what theme they're 1222 01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:18,960 covering. But but I think they're trying 1223 01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:22,760 to do some of that, some of that work as well. 1224 01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:27,680 And I do like think pieces kind of being in conversation with 1225 01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:32,400 one another. Yeah, if only people publish 1226 01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:33,760 these things and make. Books. 1227 01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:37,880 Well, listen, we we all have a million ideas and maybe one of 1228 01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:41,560 us does one of them every now and then is what you know it 1229 01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:43,680 comes down to. But listen, when, when, when, 1230 01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:46,400 when you're living under the burdens of capitalism, you know, 1231 01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:52,480 everything you do is there's a lot between an idea and getting 1232 01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:55,880 it put out, even if it's just a stress of existing and paying 1233 01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:59,280 rent can be a burden to that. Wouldn't it be nice to go back 1234 01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:02,840 to a time where we had patrons and we could just, you know, do 1235 01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:04,680 our own fucking thing with someone else pays for us to 1236 01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:06,600 live? That would be, you know, the 1237 01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:10,640 ideal way to exist. Yes, as long as that didn't come 1238 01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:13,800 with everything else that comes with the time of patients, as 1239 01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:17,320 long as we can just steal that little bit, just that one small, 1240 01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:18,360 tiny. Microcosm. 1241 01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:20,160 You know, social. Issues or. 1242 01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:22,040 Yeah. Yeah. 1243 01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:24,320 It's like the 99% of the other stuff, yeah. 1244 01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:30,800 I've done a terrible job of talking about this game so. 1245 01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:33,160 No, we, we have also done a terrible job. 1246 01:07:33,160 --> 01:07:36,800 At this point, I think what we're gonna do is, is review the 1247 01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:40,280 game tomorrow because this definitely went way longer than 1248 01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:42,000 we expected. But that's not bad at all. 1249 01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:44,600 This has been an amazing conversation. 1250 01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:47,480 Really can't thank you enough for coming on. 1251 01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:50,720 We need to do this more often. I feel like the last time you 1252 01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:53,080 were on, we had like a similar conversation and me and Hunter 1253 01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:55,160 both like, man, we love them. We need to talk to them more. 1254 01:07:56,880 --> 01:07:58,800 Same with Aaron. It was, it was amazing to talk 1255 01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:00,720 to both of you guys. I know we've been chatting a 1256 01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:04,000 little bit about having you on and it was great to actually 1257 01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:06,040 have that happen both of you. How do you? 1258 01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:12,440 Crossover span and have all four of us and just do like RT FM TWS 1259 01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:15,400 kissing podcast. Maybe let's do it. 1260 01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:20,120 We have to do an inversion episodes where Aaron and I only 1261 01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:24,399 talk about systems and mechanics and you two can only talk about 1262 01:08:24,399 --> 01:08:26,479 theory and ethics. OK. 1263 01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:28,160 And we'll just we'll pretend to be one. 1264 01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:32,160 I don't know who's going to be homest, but this, this. 1265 01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:37,640 Yeah, I will get AI will get a better mustache, either a bigger 1266 01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:40,479 mustache or more head hair. And then I can be one of you and 1267 01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:45,040 Eric, take something else. There you go no Aaron and chat 1268 01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:48,520 talked about doing a round table and bringing bringing Christian 1269 01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:50,479 on as well. I it's that's another thing that 1270 01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:53,120 we've wanted to do a lot is to have various round tables where 1271 01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:55,040 we bring in a lot of people and I think that'd be a really 1272 01:08:55,040 --> 01:09:00,680 interesting conversation and to have expect hope hope, hope for 1273 01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:03,600 more stuff like this, but don't expect very much is what I will 1274 01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:06,640 tell our audience. We'll see what happens when it 1275 01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:10,880 happens. But but yeah, I think I think I 1276 01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:14,000 think that's a good that felt like a good what it what is 1277 01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:18,080 Aaron's sale A tight 90 is is where we're at. 1278 01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:21,840 So I think that is our plan. If you're listening just listen 1279 01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:24,479 to the next episode tomorrow because I think we're going to 1280 01:09:24,479 --> 01:09:27,319 bump actually going through handbaskets to its own episode 1281 01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:32,279 tomorrow. But again, Max can't thank you 1282 01:09:32,279 --> 01:09:34,720 enough. I really hope we do are able to 1283 01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:37,439 engage more with what did what did Christian say? 1284 01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:39,760 Read the read the fucking weekly scroll. 1285 01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:42,800 Well, we'll, we'll do more crossover stuff here, but but 1286 01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:44,040 thank you. Thank you so much for coming on 1287 01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:46,920 and thank you for, I don't know, just do just being you and doing 1288 01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:50,600 the things you do, because I really enjoy everything that you 1289 01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:51,640 put out. And every time we get to 1290 01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:53,640 interact is is always a joy. So thank you so much. 1291 01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:55,480 Yeah, yeah. Thanks for having me. 1292 01:09:55,480 --> 01:09:58,680 It's always lovely all. Right. 1293 01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:01,400 Well, well, then that's gonna be it for us. 1294 01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:04,800 Listen to where? Where can people find you? 1295 01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:07,080 Where can people? I know above me, next to you, 1296 01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:08,880 there's a giant thing that says huge board games. 1297 01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:11,040 Where can people find Max Lander's stuff? 1298 01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:14,080 Where can people find RTFM? Where can people actually get 1299 01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:16,280 all the the fun engagement that I'm talking about? 1300 01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:19,320 Yeah, I mean, you can go to huge board dot games. 1301 01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:21,880 It's also it's just gonna redirect to my itch page, which 1302 01:10:21,880 --> 01:10:27,040 I believe is Maxwell Lander on Itch, which can also be how you 1303 01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:28,840 could find me. If you wish to find me on 1304 01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:31,520 Twitter or blue sky or any of the other places, it's all 1305 01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:34,360 Maxwell Lander. RTFM. 1306 01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:39,320 Oh geez, I think it's just RTFM. cast.com. 1307 01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:42,040 We'll take you to all those places and we have a fun 1308 01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:44,080 discord. If you want to come talk about 1309 01:10:44,480 --> 01:10:49,840 theory and all that nonsense. You can find hand baskets at The 1310 01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:51,680 Itch. You can also. 1311 01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:54,240 I'm saying this here and only here and never hold me to it 1312 01:10:54,240 --> 01:10:55,840 anywhere again. Maybe it'll disappear. 1313 01:10:56,080 --> 01:10:59,040 If you want to get one of the remaining physical copies of 1314 01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:03,840 Handbaskets, you can do so at oddfolkshop.com. 1315 01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:05,800 And you absolutely, absolutely should. 1316 01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:10,080 This is a great, great book on both ends. 1317 01:11:10,360 --> 01:11:12,080 I'm super excited to talk about this tomorrow. 1318 01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:19,360 I I love this kind of like inspired by Cyber Metal and gone 1319 01:11:19,560 --> 01:11:21,480 and it's own direction. I think it's cool. 1320 01:11:23,320 --> 01:11:25,400 So very excited for odd folk. We'll see. 1321 01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:28,840 But yeah, check all that stuff out. 1322 01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:31,280 Check them out. You know where all our links 1323 01:11:31,280 --> 01:11:32,120 are? They're next to us. 1324 01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:35,040 And we've done this before. Click, click, click stop below. 1325 01:11:35,040 --> 01:11:36,680 It's the Internet. You've figured it out. 1326 01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:39,400 Again, Max, thank you so much for being here. 1327 01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:41,240 And we will talk to all of you later. 1328 01:11:41,440 --> 01:11:41,880 Bye bye.