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Hello and welcome to the Weekly 
Scroll Podcast. 

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My name is Ryan and with me 
today we have CJ Somovia of Hot 

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Head Collective. 
How are you doing, CJ? 

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Great dude and you nailed it. 
Well done. 

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Fucking did it. 
Fucking did it. 

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So for those that may not know 
who you are, who, who the heck 

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are you? 
My name is CJ, as you said, I 

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run this little thing called the
Hot Head Collective, which is 

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just me, but it's a collective 
because all the stuff I put out,

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it's never just me. 
You know how a lot of these 

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things go. 
It's like always a group of 

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really cool people that I pull 
together to like make something 

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awesome happen. 
The main thing that we're 

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probably going to talk about and
the thing that has like been 

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popping off lately is this 
magazine I produce called the 

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Glaive, which you have. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

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So Glaive is like this lifestyle
magazine that I have run issue 

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2, working on Issue 3 right now.
It's my attempt at like bringing

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a Thrasher type magazine to the,
like, gaming space. 

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So it's like not a lot of gaming
content. 

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It's a lot of like talking about
how we play our games, like 

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what's happening in our 
community, like what's happening

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in our gaming cultures, that 
kind of stuff. 

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So yeah. 
Yeah, it's, it's an interesting 

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space to have a thing like that 
'cause it feels like a what did 

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we say at PAX? 
It feels like a yeah, like a 

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culture magazine or like a like 
a game. 

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Like a magazine, as you said 
about games, but not games 

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themselves really. 
Which is awesome because I mean 

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you got I assume these are 
hivescom hands on the. 

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Yeah, those are Hivescom hands 
of the first one. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah, you. 

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Got to have the mummy in there. 
Well, you have to shout out the 

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the giraffe on the back too, 
though the the kit bash on the 

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back is amazing. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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Is that is that that's Avon 
Gallion, right? 

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I yeah, I don't know what those 
guys put it together while we 

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were doing our little interview 
for that, so they had to throw 

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it on the back, but yeah. 
So, so no, wait, let's let's, 

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let's go to the so so games 
Gaming Culture magazine for 

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games. 
Where, where the where did this 

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take me back to the beginning? 
What was your first? 

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What was your first game and how
did we get here? 

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My first game ever, you know 
what, I think like my first. 

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So obviously we're both like 
deep in the TTRPG, like war 

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gaming, that kind of stuff. 
But the magazines like more than

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that, you know, the magazine is 
trying to bring together music, 

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like craft, like, you know, when
it comes to like the kind of 

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independent war gaming side, 
like painting, kid bashing 

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minis, all that kind of stuff, 
but also bringing in like video 

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games and stuff like that too. 
So it's not like just about 

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role-playing games. 
But my hope is that the sort of 

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like disparate cultures that I 
am like really passionate and 

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into all come together to create
this like coherent vibe and a 

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community where we all like can 
relate with all of those 

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different things. 
You know, So like I would say my

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first game, if we're going back 
is like, is like Runescape, you 

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know, that was like my growing 
up type vibe, which I think is 

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like, I feel like it kind of 
hits this same vein that leads 

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to OSR, like RPGs and like Ink 
28 war gaming and stuff. 

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Yeah. 
So like there's that. 

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You know, we did an article 
about like dungeon synth in the 

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first issue. 
This new issue has an article 

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about like jungle music from the
90s and how it like permeated 

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all of our favorite like video 
games from the 90s and like 

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where that came from and that 
kind of thing. 

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The second issue also has like 
an article on land parties and 

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like what happened to land 
parties. 

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How, you know, our current age 
of like Discord has basically 

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erased like the concept of land 
parties and what we've lost 

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because of that. 
So I think like all of these 

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types of things from what people
have told me, like reading the 

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magazine, like relate to people 
that are in these like teacher 

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TTRPG spaces that you know, 
we're more probably deeply 

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involved in. 
But still like all of that is a 

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part of like a larger 
independent gaming culture that 

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I want to highlight in this 
magazine. 

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So that's kind of what led to 
like the topics and all that 

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kind of stuff. 
And then the like point of it 

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being like a lifestyle magazine 
is that there are a lot of 

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people putting out a lot of 
really cool games and a lot of 

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really cool like supplements for
games and adventures for games 

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and stuff like that. 
And when I decided I wanted to 

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do this thing, I didn't want to 
just like add on to the pile of 

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already like dust collecting, 
like systems and supplements 

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that are on your bookshelf. 
You know, like we we have enough

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of those already. 
Like the point of the magazine 

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was to be something different. 
And so, and, you know, growing 

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up like Thrasher was something 
that as a kid, like informed the

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way I dressed and the things 
that I thought and like the kind

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of taste I developed around 
music and what was cool and what

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was interesting and what I 
wanted to do as a kid, you know,

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So I wanted to provide like a 
similar outlet in our community,

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which I think has like begun to 
be just as like punk and 

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counterculture as like 
skateboarding used to be. 

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And you know, so providing that 
kind of like platform for us to 

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kind of consume that style of 
content as well. 

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Yeah, I mean, you know, I think 
it's really successful. 

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The first one, they're both 
fantastic. 

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The second one does learn more 
into the video game side and 

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everything, which is much more 
Hunter's purview than mine. 

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I wasn't a huge video gamer when
I was younger, but one of the 

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things that I like about it is, 
you know, we've lost 3rd spaces 

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really, you know, and from 
people that don't know what 

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third spaces are, it's like 
something that's not home or 

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work. 
It's it's a third place that you

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could be. 
And that used to be places where

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a lot of this stuff would 
happen, Land parties, skate 

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parks, the fucking mall. 
I remember digging change out of

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my my pocket, my seats in the 
car so I could just go to a trip

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at the mall and I don't know, 
glave to me, you know, and so 

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much of it now we've even lost a
lot of forums. 

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You know, we we can say there's 
a lot of blogs out there. 

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There's a lot of they exist. 
They are there, but outside of 

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discords and I'm, I don't know 
if you're like me, I got like 45

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and they're all muted. 
I don't feel like there's as 

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many spaces for this kind of 
thing to have these kind of 

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conversations about our hobby. 
Not the like you said, not it's 

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not supplemental. 
It's not you're not selling this

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stuff. 
Like the interview with hives 

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Com isn't like to sell 
something. 

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It's to like talk with people. 
And I really like it. 

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This feels like almost like a 
like an in print third space to 

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me where we can like all 
bullshit about the same kind of 

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stuff that's going on with us, 
not the stuff we're doing. 

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And that, that's the thing that 
I really, really enjoy about it.

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Yeah, no, a 1000% yeah, the 
third space thing is like really

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sad because like it's funny in 
my in the first editor's note, 

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in the first issue, I hit on 
that Discord thing where it's 

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like, you know, we've supposedly
created all of these digital 

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third spaces that are like all 
of these Discord servers that 

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you're a part of. 
But obviously it's not working 

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because all of mine are muted 
too, right. 

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And like it where, you know, it 
used to be maybe you would go to

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this third space like in New 
York City and you'd be like a 

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part of like New York City. 
Now it's like there's like 4 New

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York City Gaming club discords 
and none of them like it like 

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cross communicate. 
You know, there's like this club

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Uptown, this club in Brooklyn, 
this club here, this club there.

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And it's like what happened to 
being like a larger community, 

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you know? 
And so like in the first editors

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know, I'm basically, I basically
say like that exactly. 

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I'm like, Discord's cool. 
Like it's really amazing that we

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can just DM anybody and get in 
contact. 

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Like us even doing this is via 
social media. 

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Like it's obviously useful, but 
I think what it's also pointing 

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towards, which is also like a 
loss of third space thing is 

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we're consuming a lot of like 
gaming contents, but I don't 

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think we're like playing a lot 
of games, you know, like we're 

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we're turning into this very 
like commodity driven industry. 

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And like you're saying, you 
know, I, the, there's like 

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nothing in the magazine other 
than like, if you like ads, 

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which are more like vibe setting
than they are like selling 

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something, you know, I'll like 
allow somebody to put in like an

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advertisement. 
But it's like just a really cool

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art spread that like Dave 
Hoskins does for Exalted 

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Funeral. 
It's not like look at this new 

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release. 
I don't let anybody do like look

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at this new release. 
If they put an ad in there, 

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'cause I'm like, this needs to 
be like, I don't want you to 

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pull the readers out of the 
magazine. 

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Like if I put you in the 
magazine, I'm endorsing you as 

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like a, a tastemaker in the 
industry. 

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And if you're in the magazine, 
you're endorsing the magazine as

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like, you know, something worth 
buying, right? 

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So that's what I see like 
advertisements for. 

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But you're right, like the 
magazine I, it's $15, which even

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in like commercial magazine 
space nowadays, like magazines 

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have kind of either gone like 
you only have the giants, which 

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you find out like every store, 
like Men's Health or whatever, 

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that's like whatever, or you 
have these like coffee table 

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magazines that are like 50 
bucks. 

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They're thick. 
There's like art books at this 

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point. 
And it's like not, you know, not

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the vibe that the magazine was 
going for. 

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I wanted something to be like 
incredibly accessible and just a

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slice of, you know, what's 
happening and not something 

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that's trying to cram more stuff
down your throat that you need 

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to like, buy and keep you from 
playing games, you know? 

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And Speaking of that too, it 
doesn't come. 

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I'm a PDF guy, I'm not gonna 
lie, I love physical media. 

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But when we're doing reviews for
the show, I almost always use 

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PDFs because I like to zoom in 
on. 

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There's too many words across 
the spread my brain, you know? 

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But there's no PDF for this, 
which I, I, I assume and tell me

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if I'm wrong, speaks to that 
whole concept of like, get off 

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your fucking computer, read the 
fucking magazine, you know? 

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Yeah. 
Oh 1000% it's like get off your 

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fucking computer, go play like 
magic with your friends and then

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put this like on the table next 
to you and in between like as 

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the pods resetting or whatever 
you like, flip to the page and 

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like chill out and like point 
like with your friends. 

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00:11:34,680 --> 00:11:36,360
But like, go look at this, this 
is cool or whatever, right? 

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Yeah, 1000%. 
I also like, you know, my folder

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on my computer for PDFs is like 
drowning in stuff. 

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I've opened like maybe once if 
ever and will never open again. 

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You know, which I think people 
have like this similar problem 

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with like physical media, but I 
think the magazine like fills a 

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different spot. 
Like you can put the magazine on

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your coffee table and like 
normies who come to your house 

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can be like, oh, what is this 
interesting? 

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Where if you put like swivers on
your coffee table, like they 

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might, they have have no frame 
of reference for like what is 

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happening in that book, right? 
Where the the magazine is an is 

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an attempt to also kind of 
bridge that gap between like 

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people who have no idea what's 
going on. 

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00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:22,960
They've maybe heard of like 
Critical role or whatever. 

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They've no idea what that means,
but then they can pick this up 

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and be like, oh, like, this is 
what these people are talking 

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about. 
Because it's not like just 

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gaming supplements. 
It's like, look at this cool 

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festival that just happened in 
Connecticut by like, under the 

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00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:40,120
Dice Fest, you know? 
So yeah, it's trying to fill 

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that niche as opposed to like 
more just like gaming content. 

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00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:46,520
Yeah, and it does. 
It's really cool. 

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00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,400
There's been a lot of, we talked
about this kind of at PAX a 

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00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:50,720
little bit. 
Oh, we got to talk about PAX 

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too. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,120
There's been a lot of really 
cool scenes in magazines and 

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stuff coming out, a lot of 
really great stuff. 

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But we feel like Glave is 
different for that reason. 

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It's not like a collection of, 
of even essays or, or anything 

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00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:04,440
like that. 
It is it does feel like a 

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culture magazine, which is 
really, really cool. 

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00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,160
So right before we got started, 
you were talking about what you 

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00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,560
like your day job, quote UN 
quote, and like how how that 

227
00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:16,720
gets you kind of to the magazine
as well. 

228
00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:18,840
Tell, tell us about that. 
Yeah. 

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00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,800
So the thing that I say on like 
most podcasts, which is probably

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00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:24,640
going to get annoying if 
anybody's like listened to all 

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00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,920
the like the three podcasts I've
done or whatever, is that like 

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00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,360
this is a magazine. 
It's not like a Zine, right? 

233
00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:36,280
And you know, Zine culture is 
like really sick and an integral

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00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:40,360
part of our DIY community. 
But again, it's like one of 

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those things where a lot of 
people are making really 

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00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,720
fantastic dirt cheap, not in a 
bad way and like in accessible 

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00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:53,000
way, you know, staple bound, 
like little digest sized zines 

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that are really, really cool. 
But like Glaive is not that, you

239
00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:02,720
know, it's like a glossy perfect
bound 100 plus page magazine. 

240
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,040
Yeah, it's like a magazine that 
you remember when you hear the 

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00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:11,040
word magazine. 
And so, you know, I wanted to 

242
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,280
make that because, as I said, 
like with Thrasher and stuff 

243
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,880
like that, like these were cheap
essentially like temporary 

244
00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,280
almost things, right? 
Like when you would get like a 

245
00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,560
copy of that, actually like tear
out the page with like the sick 

246
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:23,960
kick flip and put it on your 
wall, right? 

247
00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,000
Like I don't think anybody's 
doing that with Glaive. 

248
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,560
But the point is that that's 
like a thing you can do with 

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00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,680
Glaive is like RIP out your like
favorite art page and like, you 

250
00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,360
know, put it on your cork board 
and like look at it and stuff 

251
00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,360
'cause it's like cheap enough 
that you can do that. 

252
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:43,000
But yeah, so I work in like the 
film and photo industry in New 

253
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:47,480
York City. 
So I'm a production manager like

254
00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,880
all of the behind the scenes 
stuff when you I worked in like 

255
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:51,360
feature films and all that kind 
of stuff too. 

256
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,960
So all the behind the scenes 
stuff like the kind of lifeblood

257
00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:58,360
of making those things happen is
what I like dealing. 

258
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:04,040
And so New York City still is 
like the last kind of New York 

259
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,040
City and other like the last 
bastions of like production for 

260
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,320
like editorial magazines and 
stuff like that. 

261
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:14,360
So I work like in the magazine 
industry from that direction, 

262
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,040
like helping produce all of that
stuff. 

263
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:23,000
And so that like production side
of my brain, I think it's kind 

264
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:27,720
of made for magazines because 
what what glave is, is me 

265
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,920
reaching out to all my favorite 
bloggers and game designers and 

266
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:37,240
artists and people in these 
spaces and being like, Hey, I 

267
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,320
want to pay you to write about 
your favorite XYZ, right? 

268
00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:45,200
I want you to write about like 
in this issue 3 that's coming 

269
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,520
up, somebody was like, yo, I DM 
Ed on mushrooms. 

270
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:50,920
Like, I'm like, yeah, to tell me
about that, right? 

271
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,480
Like I want you to write an 
article about DME on mushrooms. 

272
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,200
I want to see your insane like 
DM notes from when you DM Ed on 

273
00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,000
mushrooms. 
And I'm going to pay you to put 

274
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,760
that in this magazine. 
And so like, I can kind of be 

275
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,040
like the shot caller being the, 
like, editor of this magazine 

276
00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:05,440
because I do write, like some of
it. 

277
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:10,760
I do all the graphic design, but
I I mainly edit other people's 

278
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,560
work because what I want the 
magazine to be is a platform for

279
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,880
me to get all of these different
communities together and be 

280
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:18,240
like, Hey, you writing about 
this? 

281
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,880
Let me introduce you to this 
artist who's going to like draw,

282
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,920
you know, you know, the 
characters that were in your 

283
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,440
whatever. 
Then you're like the time you 

284
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:28,800
damned on mushrooms or whatever,
right? 

285
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,680
So it's like bringing these 
things together, giving it a 

286
00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,000
platform for everybody. 
And I just really the producer 

287
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,440
side of me really enjoys that 
side of it of like being the 

288
00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,840
shot caller and and being able 
to platform all these cool 

289
00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,800
people. 
Are you? 

290
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,840
Are you lifetime DM or are you 
more of a player? 

291
00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,160
I'm a definitely definitely 
lifetime DM. 

292
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,400
Yeah, I was just gonna say 
you're basically like D Ming, a 

293
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,160
magazine right now. 
Is what it? 

294
00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:58,920
Feels like, I mean, that's all. 
Producing it just. 

295
00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:00,640
Put all the pieces together and 
put all together. 

296
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,400
So I'm I'm I'm surprised that 
you said that yeah you're you're

297
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,920
you're a lifetime DM. 
So you you said you did a lot of

298
00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:10,760
stuff with the production side 
of it. 

299
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:15,359
How did your day job also help 
get you to this? 

300
00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,920
Did you have like magazine 
connects? 

301
00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:19,480
Did I? 
Did you have to start from 

302
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,720
scratch making it look this nice
or like how? 

303
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,440
How did the? 
No, but what's working in 

304
00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:30,720
production teaches you is that 
because what's what I love about

305
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,320
what I do like in my day job is 
that no project is like ever the

306
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,040
same. 
You know, my job is to put out 

307
00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:38,600
fires like whenever they come 
up. 

308
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,640
And those fires are everything 
from like which, you know, 

309
00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:48,320
working in New York City in this
industry is you can be as crazy 

310
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:54,520
as, you know, people think it is
like, you know, but like booking

311
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:59,640
fucking massage, you know, onset
massage therapist for some like 

312
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,880
bougie diva, right? 
Like that's part of my job just 

313
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,400
as much as it is like finding 
somebody to repair like a broken

314
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,400
film camera, right? 
So like this industry has taught

315
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:15,760
me to be able to essentially 
improvise solutions to every 

316
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,280
problem because my job is the 
the you know, the logistics 

317
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,320
behind this stuff is everything 
from setting up tables for 

318
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:27,880
catering for like 100 person 
crew as it is sourcing like a 

319
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,920
vintage sports car to rent for 
the day. 

320
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:35,960
You know, so essentially what 
I'm trying to say is I had no 

321
00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:40,920
idea how to produce a magazine 
from the like actually print run

322
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,560
production, putting it into 
circulation. 

323
00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:48,160
But I know how to like solve 
problems and I know how to find 

324
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,560
those things. 
And we live in an age where like

325
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,800
everything is on the Internet 
and we'll tell you how to do 

326
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:56,920
these things or we'll connect 
you with people on how to do 

327
00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,640
these things. 
You just have to like exercise 

328
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,720
your free will and send the 
emails, right? 

329
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:07,960
Like Glaive is mainly 
distributed through retail 

330
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,400
stores. 
We have 20 retailers across like

331
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,480
5 different countries, right? 
And that's, that has started 

332
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,120
from issue 1. 
Like issue 1 was already in 

333
00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:19,320
multiple countries. 
And that was really important to

334
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:24,200
me because in this third space 
idea, right, these retail 

335
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,120
stores, especially game stores 
are some of the last third 

336
00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:30,840
spaces we have. 
And if you're not supporting 

337
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,840
those spaces, they're just going
to disappear, you know? 

338
00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:40,080
And it's tough because even 
incredible sites like Exalted 

339
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:41,920
Funeral and stuff like that, 
which are like these online 

340
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,840
spaces, which, you know, aren't 
third spaces just like online 

341
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:46,520
retailers. 
But they're cool and they 

342
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,480
support all this independent 
stuff, but they don't offer 

343
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,040
what, like your local friendly 
game store, right, offers. 

344
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,680
So, yeah, so like over half of 
my sales are two retailers. 

345
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:04,720
Because I want people to go to 
their local store and walk in 

346
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,920
and pick up the magazine and 
flip through the pages and be 

347
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,240
like, yes, I want to buy this. 
It's only 15 bucks. 

348
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:15,000
I want the kid to walk into the 
store with their mom and be like

349
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,480
mom, I want to buy this. 
And she's like, oh, that RPG is 

350
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,040
like 45 bucks. 
But he picks up this like crazy 

351
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,160
looking magazine with like an 
insane baby doll kid bash on the

352
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,120
front and be like, oh, mom, let 
me buy this. 

353
00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:29,560
And she's like, oh, it's 15 
bucks, sure, let's buy it. 

354
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:34,720
And then a kid hopefully is 
like, like transforms when they 

355
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:38,240
read some insane thing by one of
our awesome, you know, 

356
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,280
contributors and gets like 
tapped into what this community 

357
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,440
is actually about, which is like
the crazy shit we're doing with 

358
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,520
our friends, you know, like Chow
clips, who was like a really 

359
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:51,960
sick artist and like the teacher
teacher PG space. 

360
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:56,560
He did a comic from his sessions
playing Wolves upon the Coast. 

361
00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,240
And it's just like, dope comic 
spread where they, like, blast 

362
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:01,800
the brains out of, like, a fish 
and stuff. 

363
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,000
And it's just like, I want, 
like, some kid. 

364
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,680
My dream is some kid at like, 10
years old picks up this magazine

365
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,200
and is like, what is going on in
here? 

366
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,480
And then puts in, like, the 
legwork to look up this stuff 

367
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,000
and be like, oh, wow, there's 
this, like, world that's doing 

368
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,160
these things, you know? 
So. 

369
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,680
Yeah. 
So I think that answered your 

370
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,200
questions, but yeah. 
Listen, this is the weekly show 

371
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,320
podcast. 
We just let the ADHD go, you 

372
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:28,480
know what I mean? 
Yeah, I love it. 

373
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,360
Let it RIP, let it RIP. 
But yeah, so so you were talking

374
00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:34,840
about, you know, someone 
reaching out about an article 

375
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:39,000
for deeming on mushrooms since 
episode 1, episode one, since 

376
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,640
issue one especially. 
Yeah, yeah. 

377
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:43,720
How? 
Did you source the articles in 

378
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:45,960
issue one versus now that you're
kind of on three? 

379
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,920
Has it changed like reaching out
versus being reached out to? 

380
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,080
Yeah, So kind of in line with 
where I was going, I guess with 

381
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,840
that last one is which I guess I
didn't fully answer the 

382
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:58,160
question, but it lines up with 
this. 

383
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:03,280
So I didn't have a network at 
all established before issue 

384
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:08,040
one, right. 
I've been in the kind of 

385
00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:13,680
community via putting out like 
other kind of small things used 

386
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,400
to stream on Twitch. 
So there were like some kind of 

387
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,640
producers in this community that
I had slightly started 

388
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,240
conversations with, but nobody 
like I, I didn't really have a 

389
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,000
foot in the door. 
So essentially what I did was 

390
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,600
just cold DM and cold e-mail 
fucking everybody, you know, So 

391
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:34,720
like to line up all those 
retailers. 

392
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,320
I think I emailed like close to 
500 game stores all over the 

393
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:44,880
world and just cold emailed them
and I got like maybe 20 emails 

394
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,600
back out of the like 500 or 
whatever that I sent or like 

395
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,440
300, whatever it was, right? 
A very small percentage of the 

396
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,840
cold emails I sent actually 
resulted in people stocking the 

397
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,600
magazine. 
But I just kind of brute forced 

398
00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,680
my way into it because I just 
hit up fucking everybody and I 

399
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,360
had, you know, the beginning 
spreads of the magazine and 

400
00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:06,160
we're like, hey, this is what 
I'm trying to do. 

401
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:08,600
Do you would you like to stock 
this magazine? 

402
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,640
And like, you know, only like 20
people got back, but that's like

403
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,760
the point, right? 
Is like, you have to put in that

404
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,200
work to to see, you know, the 
fruits come out of that. 

405
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:22,600
And so in the same way with the 
first issue, I had a bunch of 

406
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,800
like dream blog writers and 
other creatives in the space 

407
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,360
that I was like, I fucking love 
how they write what they talk 

408
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:33,600
about, you know, what they're 
tapped into. 

409
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,880
I think they would write a 
really cool article about this, 

410
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:38,840
right? 
So like, for example, if she 

411
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,680
wanted to have had Micah 
Anderson doing a kind of system 

412
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,040
agnostic setting called The 
Waste of the Car. 

413
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:51,400
And he has designed some really 
sick modules in the past, right?

414
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:52,600
Like he's done some really cool 
stuff. 

415
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,360
And so I just reached out. 
I was like, yo, do you want to 

416
00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:56,440
design something for the 
magazine? 

417
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,760
And he said yes. 
So it's been a lot of that of 

418
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,440
just like reaching out to 
people. 

419
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,440
And I guess again, like 
exercising that free will of 

420
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,720
like, you're basically not going
to get a yes unless you're 

421
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,120
willing to get a no, which means
you have to talk to these people

422
00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:14,200
and reach out. 
And so I just DM Ed as many 

423
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,440
people as I could and was like, 
a lot of it was like, I have an 

424
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,320
article idea. 
I want you to write. 

425
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,720
You're like an expert in this 
thing. 

426
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,440
So can you please write an 
article for the magazine and 

427
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,680
I'll pay you, you know, to write
an article, for example, like an

428
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:32,800
issue to the land party article,
Mary Kay, who wrote it, I 

429
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,160
basically was like, I literally 
was just Googling like land 

430
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:36,680
parties. 
Has anybody talked about land 

431
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,800
parties? 
And she put out a book called 

432
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:43,400
Land Party that's this really 
amazing, like beautiful 

433
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:49,800
hardcover book that is just full
of full of like photos from old 

434
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,880
land parties. 
And I was, and I figured out 

435
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:53,720
where, you know, I could dam her
on Instagram. 

436
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,200
I was like, hey, do you want to 
write about land parties in the 

437
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:57,680
magazine? 
And she was like down for it. 

438
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,600
So it's a lot of that. 
And then now to like moving on 

439
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,480
to issue 3. 
I do have people like reaching 

440
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,080
out to me and being like, hey, 
this magazine's really cool. 

441
00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:10,560
I want to like, hey, if you have
anything, you know, if you're 

442
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:11,920
looking for contributors, let me
know. 

443
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,720
Or somebody comes in, they're 
like, yo, I have this article 

444
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,640
that I've been sitting on. 
I think this is a good space for

445
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,960
it. 
For example, in issue 2, there's

446
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,520
like the Roblox article, which 
is like so funny to me that 

447
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:24,600
there's a Roblox article in 
there. 

448
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,080
It's a fucking funny. 
It's like, it's one of those 

449
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,800
things where I kind of was like,
is this too far? 

450
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,000
But I think everybody who's read
it, like gets why it's in the 

451
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,240
magazine because it's like, you 
know, these kids are doing crazy

452
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:37,360
shit on Roblox. 
It's really funny. 

453
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,800
And he was like, he was like, 
I'm sitting on this article 

454
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,920
about Roblox. 
Like, do you think there's a 

455
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,360
spot for it? 
And I was like, absolutely. 

456
00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:45,600
Like, write it. 
Let's go. 

457
00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:48,800
And yeah, so now to answer your 
question, it's like a mix. 

458
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,000
I still reach out to people. 
I also have like a list of 

459
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,560
people who have contributed 
before, so I can hit them up 

460
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,440
again and be like, yo, let's 
write something else. 

461
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,080
And I have people reaching out 
to me who want to contribute, 

462
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,920
which is like, really cool. 
And then how, how frequently are

463
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,240
you trying to put these out? 
Do you have a schedule or do you

464
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,480
is it when it's fucking done 
it's done kind of thing? 

465
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:12,240
I have a schedule because I need
a schedule to function in my 

466
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,960
life, but I haven't I've never 
hit the deadline. 

467
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,800
So it's it's quarterly, quote UN
quote. 

468
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,520
So that that's looking at four 
issues a year. 

469
00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:26,480
I think this last issue was like
a month off. 

470
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:28,920
This next issue is probably 
going to be like a month off, 

471
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,760
just like with I haven't really 
like locked in the kind of 

472
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,680
between sending to printers and 
getting from printer and getting

473
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,920
to retailers and then announcing
it's out like that kind of thing

474
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:49,040
is, I'm still like locking in. 
You know, it's it's still a 

475
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,080
struggle for me, but I also like
don't care so much about, you 

476
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,200
know, like it's fine. 
I'm not like stressing about 

477
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,480
hitting deadlines. 
It's just going to get better. 

478
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:58,640
You know, it's just going to get
better. 

479
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:01,880
Yeah, I mean, issue 1 is 
fantastic. 

480
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,760
You could definitely see a 
progression in issue 2 where 

481
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,520
there was a little bit more just
expansion of obviously the style

482
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,400
of content that you're putting 
in there because you don't know 

483
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,640
Roblox and land parties. 
In issue 1, there's definitely a

484
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,360
little bit of a lean into video 
games, which I think is really 

485
00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:18,240
great. 
Again, it's not, it's not a 

486
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,640
tabletop role-playing game 
magazine. 

487
00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:24,520
It's a hobby magazine, and a lot
of the people in those spaces 

488
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,120
happen to crossover into a lot 
of these hobbies. 

489
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,480
Yeah, completely. 
Which, which, which again, is 

490
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:35,520
really neat. 
Is there a focus on #3 the same 

491
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,720
kind of way you're trying to 
spread it a little bit more. 

492
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,960
You're trying to spread the 
wings all out in the beginning, 

493
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,120
couple like a year and then kind
of focus in on or what? 

494
00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:46,600
What's kind of? 
I think issue 2 was closer to 

495
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,680
the mark of what I was hoping 
for Glave to be, which was like 

496
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,920
a wider net capturing. 
Like it's my hope is it's a 

497
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,240
gaming magazine, right? 
Not like a tabletop role play, 

498
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,800
like not ATTRPG magazine or it's
like tabletop magazine. 

499
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:05,960
It's, it's a gaming magazine. 
And I guess for both sides, 

500
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,160
there are people who pick it up 
and are interested in reading 

501
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,760
about like the gaming stuff. 
My hope is that they then are 

502
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,200
introduced to the tabletop 
stuff. 

503
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,440
My hope is that the people who 
open up and read about the 

504
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,720
tabletop stuff can tap into like
what's happening in the gaming 

505
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,520
stuff. 
Most people who pick up the 

506
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,240
magazine are tapped into both, 
you know, or are interested in 

507
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,960
both already. 
But my hope is that it's like a 

508
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,520
larger gaming magazine. 
So issue 2 is like more the kind

509
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,920
of scatter shot of what I'm 
hoping for it to be. 

510
00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:38,560
I think just naturally it's 
going to ebb and flow between 

511
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,560
the two, you know, different 
some maybe the next issue might 

512
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,360
be more back to tabletop, maybe 
another issue. 

513
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,360
I get, you know, some more 
people involved who are, you 

514
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,280
know, more in like the video 
game side. 

515
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:58,120
But you know, the, the, the 
tough job for me is honing the 

516
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:03,320
articles in a way where they 
don't alienate the other side, 

517
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,520
you know, where they are kind of
hitting on both things. 

518
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,560
That's the tough part as the 
editor, I guess, is making sure 

519
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:15,440
that I don't, you know, we've 
too far in One Direction, which 

520
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,480
I guess the, the trick to doing 
that is just, which is how the 

521
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,680
magazine started is just 
trusting my own taste and like 

522
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,120
what I like, you know, because 
that's really, I think the trick

523
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,840
for all of this stuff is you 
just make something that you 

524
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,000
want to read and you know, 
spoiler, you're not as unique as

525
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:31,560
you think you are. 
And there's a bunch of other 

526
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,320
people who want to read the same
thing, you know? 

527
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,240
Yeah. 
I think that's we could say that

528
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,080
about a lot of stuff, you know, 
where we don't need to go deeply

529
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,360
into. 
Yeah. 

530
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:47,040
Just. 
Like commodification of like in 

531
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,640
in of every single aspect and 
moment of our life. 

532
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,160
So hobbies become money making 
schemes because thank you 

533
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,280
capitalism. 
But I think there really is a 

534
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,640
distinct change when you go from
making what you want to make and

535
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:07,560
selling it to making something 
to sell and staying on the more 

536
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,000
genuine side of that line where 
you're like, I'm doing this and 

537
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:11,720
it's cool and it's cool if it 
sells. 

538
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,360
Is always going to feel like a a
better project because you're 

539
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,560
you're doing what you want to do
and what speaks to you, not what

540
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,440
you hope speaks to people. 
And that's when you start 

541
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,840
getting that scatter shot. 
So yeah, I mean, like you still 

542
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,760
feels like that. 
We'll, we'll, we'll check in 

543
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,520
once a year and be like, so how 
was the last year at Glave? 

544
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:28,480
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

545
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:35,080
So Pat, we were at PAX you was 
that How many times was that 

546
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,320
your first packs have you? 
Been that was my SO. 

547
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:44,040
So that was my second packs 
although my first packs I didn't

548
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,880
get badges in time and I was 
like oh they sell them at the 

549
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:53,080
door. 
So me, my wife and our roommate 

550
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,520
went to PAX. 
We walk into the where they sell

551
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,560
the badges and they're like, Oh 
no, we're sold out, but there's 

552
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,840
no badges for today. 
And I was like the one day we're

553
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,240
going to go cuz Philly's like an
hour and a half to two hour 

554
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:06,960
drive from New York. 
So we just like drive up for the

555
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,000
day, do our thing. 
They didn't have any badges and 

556
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,760
I like needed to get in because 
I was meeting. 

557
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,880
This was like, the reason I was 
going is this is right before 

558
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,480
issue 1 was coming out and I was
doing that thing where I was 

559
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,160
starting to network and the 
magazine wasn't out yet. 

560
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,080
But I was like, hey, I'm going 
to make this really cool thing. 

561
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:29,640
I swear. 
It's going to be really cool. 

562
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,320
I didn't have like, a magazine, 
you know? 

563
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,120
So it's like this kind of weird 
thing. 

564
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,120
And I was meeting the, like, 
Exalted funeral team for the 

565
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,040
first time, so I needed to get 
into packs, but I didn't have a 

566
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:43,360
badge. 
So we sat out. 

567
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:48,760
So we sat outside of the venue 
and just waited for people to 

568
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,040
leave. 
And we're just like, hey, are 

569
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,040
you done for the day? 
Can I buy your badge? 

570
00:31:55,560 --> 00:32:01,000
And essentially like a group of 
like 3 or 4 kids with their dad 

571
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,320
like rolled out and, and I 
basically went up to these kids 

572
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:10,680
and I was like, Hey, I'm promise
I'm not a, a fucking weirdo. 

573
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,400
Can I buy the badges off of you?
And they all like look up at 

574
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,160
their dad and he's like, you 
know, it's like the, I 

575
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,280
understood how sketchy the 
situation was, but they were 

576
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,000
like, I was like, I promise I'll
Venmo you right now, like full 

577
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,040
price. 
This was when there was like 2 

578
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,920
hours left for the day, right? 
It was like a fucking waste of 

579
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,080
money for me, right? 
But there was like 2 hours left.

580
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,360
I was like, I'll pay you full 
price for these badges. 

581
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:36,960
So you'll get like the badges 
for free. 

582
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,920
Essentially. 
The dad like sketchily accepted 

583
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,040
my Venmo and then they just like
handed us the badges. 

584
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,760
Then we, like, sprinted in and 
I, like, found the exalted 

585
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,160
funeral booth like in that Tiger
Wizard and those guys for the 

586
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,840
first time went to, like, the 
open gaming space and tried to 

587
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,840
pretend like this was worth our 
money and then left like two or 

588
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,280
three hours after. 
So that was my first PAX 

589
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,080
experience. 
The second this, the one that 

590
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,280
just happened, was far more 
civilized. 

591
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:08,720
We, like, got our badges ahead 
of time. 

592
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,600
I learned from my mistake. 
And yeah, so this was my second 

593
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,680
year at PAX. 
There you go. 

594
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,120
And so my assumption is 
obviously you, you probably 

595
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,160
bouncing around in there meeting
a lot of people Were you, is 

596
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,360
that kind of the, I guess 
primary reason you went? 

597
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,800
Like were you trying to still 
network a lot more or just 

598
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:31,800
trying to meet people you've met
through the magazine? 

599
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,120
Like what was your package packs
experience like? 

600
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:35,520
Like why you went and how it 
felt for you. 

601
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,440
Yeah, those things for me are 
just like meeting up with 

602
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,480
people. 
Got to meet, got to meet a lot 

603
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:45,360
of new people, got to meet up 
with people I've now met and 

604
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,320
want to develop like 
relationships with because 

605
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,120
they're cool people. 
So like, you know, when you go 

606
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,760
to these things, if they're 
around, you want to give a hug 

607
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,440
and say hey and just be like 
hope you're chilling and living 

608
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,440
life. 
You know, this time was like a 

609
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,800
lot more of the full packs 
experience. 

610
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,360
I don't know how deep you want 
to go in it, but like I hadn't 

611
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,440
realized like there's like some 
like industry after party stuff 

612
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,159
that happens at PAX that gets 
like really crazy. 

613
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,800
That was like fun to experience 
and like overwhelming. 

614
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,040
There's like for for those who 
don't know, like the main hotel 

615
00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:20,080
where everybody stays is like 
connected to the venue space by 

616
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,679
like a tunnel. 
So everybody basically funnels 

617
00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:26,120
out of packs to this hotel and 
like all of the who's who and 

618
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,440
like the industry are there just
like drinking at like the hotel 

619
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,520
bar. 
And it's like absolutely insane.

620
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,719
Just like a total nightmare. 
But it was like weird, like you 

621
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,000
walk in and you grab a drink 
next to like Jenny D and like 

622
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,159
all of these like fucking, you 
know, like big like tabletop 

623
00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:43,080
people and you're like what? 
Where the fuck am I? 

624
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,600
Like what is going on right now?
Which was fun. 

625
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:50,320
So I did that little thing and 
then just hung out with friends.

626
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,040
Yeah, I just got to connect with
friends and chill. 

627
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,239
But yeah, my reason for going to
PAX is just like meeting up with

628
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,640
people, you know, I think like a
booth could be cool in the 

629
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,440
future, but you know, I'm not. 
We're not there yet. 

630
00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:05,520
It's not a thing. 
I mean put your name on now cuz 

631
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,000
you got like 3 years before they
look at you so. 

632
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,600
Yeah, totally. 
Yeah, it just gets bigger and 

633
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,800
bigger. 
But yeah, I mean, that's the 

634
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,480
reason I go. 
This is my second year going. 

635
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:19,040
I worked with, I worked with 
four Adam from World Champ Games

636
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,800
last year cuz he wasn't there, 
but he actually got to beat out 

637
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:22,600
this year. 
It was cool. 

638
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,520
Got to hang out the entire time,
but it all comes out to it. 

639
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,880
It's fun to work and and to it's
fun to work. 

640
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:33,480
It's not it is fun to be there 
and I love Adam's stuff. 

641
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,880
So it's very easy to talk about 
their games, but it's definitely

642
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,760
the meeting people, you know, 
like we definitely touched base 

643
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,600
through God. 
I don't even know where I found 

644
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,120
you. 
For a little tip for everyone, 

645
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,760
make yourself easy to find on 
the Internet, because I think my

646
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:52,960
first encounter with you at all 
as a human being is your your 

647
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,560
stuff in the violence collection
too. 

648
00:35:57,240 --> 00:35:58,800
I got it ready to go. 
Yeah, yeah. 

649
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,720
Yeah, and you did not make 
yourself easy to find through 

650
00:36:01,720 --> 00:36:02,960
that. 
I think I found your. 

651
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,440
Private personal Instagram 
before I found Hot Head 

652
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,360
Collective, before you know, I 
found Glaive, you know, reached 

653
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,720
out and here we are. 
Yeah, Which, you know, is kind 

654
00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:15,640
of funny. 
Like I talked about this with 

655
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:16,760
the high school guys a little 
bit. 

656
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,600
I don't think we talked about it
in the interview that we did, 

657
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,120
but there's kind of, I don't 
know, maybe this is just me 

658
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,480
being a like stupid. 
But there's kind of for me like 

659
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:30,360
a little bit of charm of like 
having to like look up stuff 

660
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,400
about somebody to like figure 
out who they are. 

661
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,240
Like, like having to kind of do 
a little bit of a hunt, like 

662
00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:38,400
weeds out the people who like, 
don't really care. 

663
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,680
You know, maybe there's just an 
excuse for me just to say that 

664
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,320
like for why it's hard to find 
my shit. 

665
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,440
But I, I don't know, some of 
like some of the, when I'm on 

666
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,280
the Internet, I love like having
like 7 tabs where you like 

667
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,080
rabbit hole until you find like 
the original thing. 

668
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,200
And then you're like, oh, you 
feel really like rewarded when 

669
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:59,960
you find that like OG blog post,
you know, like, and you had to 

670
00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:02,760
like way back machine to find 
like the OG blog post that like 

671
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:04,320
everybody's talking about. 
I don't know, that shit's kind 

672
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,600
of fun to me, but. 
Way back the rules alive. 

673
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:08,600
Is that what we're talking 
about? 

674
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,160
Yo I just I literally was 
talking about rules alive. 

675
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,280
That's so funny. 
Yeah, no, I. 

676
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:15,360
Got it. 
You could read it on my face. 

677
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:16,240
It's so funny. 
Oh my God. 

678
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,120
I didn't do the same thing and 
then download the PDF or or 

679
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,120
export it into Google Docs so I 
could save it. 

680
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:23,760
No, no, no, no, no, absolutely 
not. 

681
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,640
We would never do that. 
You got to, you got to, you got 

682
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,080
to be able to argue why it's. 
Yeah. 

683
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:33,880
The the way it is, but well, 
just so you know, I that is the 

684
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,880
quest I had to go on. 
So so it succeeded. 

685
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,000
I I caught it before it got 
taken down, luckily. 

686
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:44,640
But yeah, I can't believe you. 
You literally. 

687
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:45,920
Oh, sorry. 
Yeah, yeah. 

688
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,760
I'm just still, it's so funny 
that you were talking about 

689
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:49,160
rules of life because I 
literally was talking about 

690
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,240
rules of life. 
Yeah, Nope, I got you. 

691
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:53,880
But no, my quest was to find 
you. 

692
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,480
That's exactly what happened. 
I did have to hit like 5 

693
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,280
different channels. 
Find the Hot Head Collective 

694
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,800
website which is also great by 
the way is a nice collection of 

695
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:06,120
stuff on there. 
Well, yeah, so I guess we can 

696
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,160
actually talk about then like 
Hot Head Collective. 

697
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,320
Like isn't it didn't start as 
glaive, right. 

698
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:15,240
So originally, which I've 
totally dropped the ball on, 

699
00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:17,600
which I hope is fine 'cause I'm 
doing the magazine now. 

700
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,440
But at first it was a news. 
It was like an outlet for a 

701
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,800
newsletter that I was putting 
out, which was one of many 

702
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,640
newsletters now in the space 
where I was just highlighting 

703
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,640
like all my favorite blog posts 
and stuff. 

704
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,280
Like I would basically highlight
like my favorite, like a YouTube

705
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:34,680
video I'd found. 
That's really cool that people 

706
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,080
should check out. 
Favorite blog post that I think 

707
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,640
like people should check out. 
And then like usually like it 

708
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:45,440
might be like a podcast episode 
or like a book or something. 

709
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,000
But every week I put out like 
my, like, top three, like 

710
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,200
resources that people should 
check out that I felt like I 

711
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,080
personally were like curating 
that I thought were cool because

712
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,920
I got into like, TTRPGS and all 
this kind of stuff. 

713
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,400
Like fairly recently in the 
grand scheme of things like 

714
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,120
COVID, basically, I'd been into 
like, D&D and stuff before 

715
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:14,640
COVID, but Covid's when, like, 
the OSR wrapped its tentacles 

716
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,000
like around my neck and like, 
pulled me into the deep end. 

717
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,280
And I basically spent like all 
of my, yeah, all of my free 

718
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:28,800
time, you know, during the 
pandemic, just ingesting as much

719
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,600
I as I could about this like 
specific side to the hobby. 

720
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,800
And so I wanted an outlet to 
kind of be excited about all 

721
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,080
that kind of stuff. 
So I just started like curating 

722
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,480
my favorites from that. 
So if you go to like the 

723
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:48,800
website, you'll find a long like
post history of all of those 

724
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,560
newsletters that are just that 
has become like a library of all

725
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,720
of my favorite like shit from 
the Internet. 

726
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,680
Yeah, like I said after I found 
your private Instagram, that's 

727
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,640
what I found and I was 
definitely digging through that 

728
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,120
for a while and and it also 
looks great. 

729
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,640
The the your design stuff is 
good. 

730
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:09,960
It is good stuff. 
I appreciate it. 

731
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,920
But just drop that there. 
We'll make sure it's the 

732
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:16,320
Internet. 
The links will be where you 

733
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:22,160
expect them at the end of the 
episode for those watching, but.

734
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,800
I guess at what point, you know,
we kind of we hit it till go 

735
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,880
back to the beginning. 
At what point did hot head 

736
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,520
collective shift into Glebe? 
At what point were you like, I 

737
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,240
like this stuff, but now I want 
it in the physical media. 

738
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:43,400
So the first thing, so I was 
streaming on Twitch, I was in 

739
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:48,360
kind of the D&D space on Twitch.
That kind of community over 

740
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:54,920
there is a lot of like world 
building, a lot of like DND 5 E 

741
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:56,960
home brewing. 
That kind of stuff is like 

742
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,960
pretty popular there, you know, 
actual plays, obviously, but 

743
00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:03,400
like the the part of it that's 
not actual plays is like a lot 

744
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,720
of people like home brewing and 
designing stuff and that kind of

745
00:41:05,720 --> 00:41:08,040
thing. 
And so I was doing that and 

746
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,080
getting connected with people 
doing that. 

747
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:15,720
And then the first like release 
from Hot Head Collective was 

748
00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:20,480
this thing called grand rituals,
which is this little thing which

749
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,720
is very hard to it like doesn't 
exist anywhere anymore. 

750
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:30,520
Exalted Funeral put it out, but 
it's like a system agnostic rule

751
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,920
set for like large scale 
rituals. 

752
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,320
So it like it's, it gives you 
kind of like a format and like a

753
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,200
little like template for 
designing these like large scale

754
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,080
rituals that turn into like 
adventures where basically all 

755
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,480
the different pieces of the 
ritual are kind of like Mac 

756
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,640
guffins that you have to find. 
And there's like different stuff

757
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:48,920
like that. 
So we put out this like grand 

758
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,520
rituals thing. 
I say we it was me and this 

759
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:56,840
other content creator guy, IDBN,
who's like a really great, great

760
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,960
game designer guy in that space.
So what we did that thing that 

761
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:05,960
was like the first Hot Head 
Collective release, but quickly,

762
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:10,320
you know, I, I stopped streaming
on Twitch because when I, when I

763
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:14,840
get into this kind of stuff, I 
can't really like kind of half 

764
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,240
do stuff. 
Yeah, I have to like 1000% do 

765
00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:22,040
it, which is both a blessing and
a curse where it's like if I'm 

766
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:26,160
doing something, I it needs to 
be the thing that I'm like 

767
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,840
putting out into the world and 
trying to turn into like 

768
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,560
something. 
And to do that on Twitch 

769
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:37,600
nowadays, like even just like, 
yeah, but even like the D&D 

770
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,280
side, like not even talking 
about that side of it, which we 

771
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:41,960
could, we probably shouldn't 
talk about. 

772
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:47,720
But it's, it's like over like to
be able to do that and have like

773
00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:52,160
a normal life or like, it's just
not accessible anymore, you 

774
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,800
know, it's like not a thing. 
So I didn't want to spend all my

775
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:56,880
days, like I didn't want to 
stream for 10 hours and then 

776
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,120
spend another 10 hours cutting 
clips and chasing algorithms. 

777
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:04,840
And like, for me, I couldn't 
just stream like I needed to do 

778
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,920
the whole thing, you know? 
And so I quickly realized like, 

779
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,920
that's not the kind of creative 
outlet I wanted to do. 

780
00:43:12,720 --> 00:43:14,840
We already talked about why I 
don't want to do like more 

781
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:16,400
supplements and systems and 
stuff. 

782
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,440
Like the grand rituals thing was
really fun. 

783
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:20,640
And when it comes all this 
stuff, I always want to do 

784
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,000
something different. 
And so for that, it was like 

785
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,680
definitely want to be like a 
system agnostic thing, like, you

786
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:30,880
know, that's now very common, 
but something different. 

787
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,760
And so we did that. 
It was fun. 

788
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:36,880
And then I was like, OK, I want 
to do something different, Let's

789
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:38,880
do something different. 
And that's where, like Glaive 

790
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,280
started kicking around in my 
head kind of from. 

791
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,360
I think also that curation that 
I enjoy with like the the 

792
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,880
newsletter, Glaive became like a
new outlet for that. 

793
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,240
But also just didn't want to 
curate the same thing everybody 

794
00:43:50,240 --> 00:43:52,080
else is like talking about. 
I wanted to do something 

795
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:53,880
different. 
And so, you know, all of that 

796
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,440
ends up being Glaive. 
Yeah. 

797
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,360
Yeah, and you're, you're fucking
doing it, man. 

798
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:04,080
Yeah, you know. 
It's happening. 

799
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,040
Yeah, it's happening. 
It's, it's hard to, it's hard to

800
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,800
do stuff, you know, especially 
in this space. 

801
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,400
You know, I know people, people 
make things, people put stuff 

802
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,160
out, people produce stuff. 
But I can tell you there's 

803
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,920
probably about a million times 
more that's just sitting in 

804
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,600
Google Docs and and hanging out.
I mean, I've been in this space 

805
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,000
for a long time and I just put 
out like the ash can of my very 

806
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,440
first thing, which, which, which
is neat. 

807
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,320
So actually. 
I have it somewhere. 

808
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,200
Oh man. 
Oh yeah. 

809
00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:35,120
Oh, I haven't even announced 
that on like this. 

810
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:37,280
Announced it as if it's fucking 
anything. 

811
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:39,360
Oh, should I not show it? 
Oh, you can. 

812
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:40,360
Yeah. 
The first time it's going to be 

813
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:41,840
on stream. 
I made a fucking game. 

814
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,720
There it is. 
Death cut in stone it is. 

815
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,720
This is what's funny too, is 
this is a little connection 

816
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:51,800
between us as well. 
It is a skirmish game. 

817
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,320
It's a super quick, brutal 
skirmish game based on Luke 

818
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,040
Gearing's violence. 
And again, that was kind of like

819
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:02,600
our first connection is your art
trash, right? 

820
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,560
And and violence too. 
So neat little little. 

821
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:08,320
Crossover. 
Up there. 

822
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,040
So I'll put that where you can 
expect to find it on the 

823
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:13,800
Internet. 
That'll come out the rest of the

824
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:15,280
way by the end of the year. 
But we're not talking about 

825
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:16,440
that. 
We're talking about Glaive in 

826
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,120
the future of HUD had Collective
as well. 

827
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:19,920
I know I've been. 
We've been chatting a little bit

828
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,480
on the Internet and being like, 
when are you gonna do this? 

829
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,520
When are you gonna do that? 
Like when's the next merch drop?

830
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:29,200
Because it's the Glaive T-shirt.
Oh, it's in the other room, Is 

831
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:30,400
it? 
Is it sold out now what? 

832
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:32,360
What's the plan with? 
All that no, we're not sold out 

833
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:33,840
yet. 
I think so yeah. 

834
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:38,120
So so hot Head collective right 
now is glaive. 

835
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,760
I what I want to do with hot 
Head Collective is continue to 

836
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:48,320
be like a lifestyle focused 
thing, which is what I want to 

837
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:54,280
try to do is put out stuff that 
kind of merges that gap between 

838
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:58,280
our like everyday lives and the 
hobbies that we love. 

839
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:03,320
And so I don't so so you 
mentioned the shirt we put out 

840
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,000
our first like not magazine 
thing, which is like a logo T. 

841
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:09,800
So it's like got the glaive 
logo, whatever. 

842
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,000
It's like a really simple thing,
but it was like a first attempt 

843
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:13,920
at like putting out shirts and 
stuff, which was cool. 

844
00:46:14,240 --> 00:46:17,760
But I do want to start putting 
out like, you know, more shirts 

845
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:19,640
in the future, get artists to do
cool stuff. 

846
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:26,800
I think a lot of like gaming 
adjacent like fashion stuff is 

847
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,400
just like, to be frank, like 
kind of shitty. 

848
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,920
It's like not good. 
And you know, I think a lot of 

849
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,520
actually in like the ink 28 like
war gaming like side is actually

850
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:42,880
really sick and you know, giving
like more options for people, 

851
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,800
giving like artists some more of
a chance to make like cool 

852
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,560
stuff. 
This brand that I'm really into 

853
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:53,480
that I think is doing this 
across a few different like 

854
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:55,960
cultures and communities is 
brain dead. 

855
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:57,480
I don't know if you know the 
brand Brain Dead. 

856
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,600
So it's like a, they're not like
it's funny because they're 

857
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:07,720
dipping into like gaming stuff, 
but they are like there's like a

858
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:14,040
street wear brand, but they, for
example, they collaborate with 

859
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,400
like Magic the gathering put out
probably the coolest Magic the 

860
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,120
Gathering merch you'll ever buy 
is from this brand called Brain 

861
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,040
Dead. 
They also had a secret layer 

862
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,880
with Magic the Gathering. 
So they've like firmly started 

863
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:31,240
planting themselves in the the 
gaming space and what they try 

864
00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:34,480
to be. 
And it's something I, I'm a I'm 

865
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,560
a big fanboy of branded, so I'm 
going to yeah. 

866
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:42,200
So, so let me talk about them. 
They they want to make merch for

867
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,920
our hobbies. 
That's like their kind of design

868
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:49,880
goal is they want to make like 
the band tease for our hobbies 

869
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:51,520
and stuff. 
So they're they don't just make 

870
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:53,480
like gaming stuff. 
They make stuff for tennis is 

871
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:54,720
like another hobby they're 
really into. 

872
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,720
It's basically the guy who runs 
it, Kyle. 

873
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:01,960
He basically is just making 
merch for all the stuff he likes

874
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,520
to do. 
So they make like rock climbing 

875
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,720
merch like, and it's not just 
rock climbing shirts and stuff. 

876
00:48:07,720 --> 00:48:10,520
It's like they have rock 
climbing shoes like at the chalk

877
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,360
bags, like all that kind of 
stuff. 

878
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,160
They host like rock climbing 
events. 

879
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:17,440
They're really tapped into like 
events as well. 

880
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,240
They do a bunch of commander 
tournament tournaments. 

881
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:22,640
The other thing is they, they, 
he's really into tennis. 

882
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,280
So they put out like tennis 
rackets and tennis stuff. 

883
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,800
He's and then he's also into 
Magic the Gathering. 

884
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,160
So they put out, they run a 
bunch of like commander 

885
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:32,960
tournaments. 
They own a movie theater. 

886
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,720
So they have like commander pods
at their movie theater and they 

887
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,760
they are tapped in enough to 
have Magic the gathering like 

888
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:43,080
official merch. 
They did AD and D1 too, which is

889
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,440
actually kind of sick, but I 
don't think it was sold very 

890
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:46,800
well. 
So they just like stopped doing 

891
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,920
the D&D stuff. 
But they and then they've also, 

892
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,480
which was so funny because it 
was like right when issue 1 was 

893
00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:57,600
about to come out, they put out 
there like Brainzine, which is 

894
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,840
their glaive basically. 
But they did like one of them 

895
00:49:01,240 --> 00:49:05,000
and it was like whatever, I 
think Glaive was way better, but

896
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:06,760
I don't know if they're going to
keep doing it. 

897
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:11,080
But they did like they're kind 
of like gaming Zine, which is 

898
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,040
cool. 
But anyway, so so brain dead. 

899
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:18,320
That idea of like creating merch
around a hobby lifestyle is 

900
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:20,760
where I want hot head to go when
it comes to like gaming and 

901
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:25,720
stuff. 
And so so obviously like shirts 

902
00:49:25,720 --> 00:49:27,680
and soft goods and like that 
kind of stuff. 

903
00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:31,240
I think it's cool. 
I want to get like really weird 

904
00:49:31,240 --> 00:49:33,320
with it. 
So like something I'm like 

905
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:39,560
thinking about making or like, 
you know, those like milk glass,

906
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,440
like coffee mug. 
They're like the kind of like 

907
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:47,040
they're usually like that kind 
of like green, like specific. 

908
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:48,800
They're like a specific type of 
glove. 

909
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,360
Anyway, I want to make like 
these mugs that say paint water 

910
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:57,760
on them, you know, like I want 
to make stuff that we would use 

911
00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:59,640
outside of the hobby as well as 
in the hobby. 

912
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,800
I think like finding that 
crossover is really interesting.

913
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,480
So like, another thing I'm 
working on with some people is 

914
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:09,680
like an incense burner, but it's
28mm scale, so you can use it at

915
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:14,640
the table, you know? 
So like this weird stuff that 

916
00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:19,520
your mom could, like, use, but 
also like you could use and 

917
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:23,280
finding like, where those 
crossovers meets and creating 

918
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:27,000
stuff that allows us to immerse 
ourselves more in our hobby 

919
00:50:27,240 --> 00:50:30,640
without, like, having to buy, 
like, an ampersand shirt or 

920
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:32,560
something. 
You know, like stuff that's 

921
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:38,440
like, kind of like gaming coded 
but isn't like a dice bag, you 

922
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,000
know, which is like, we have 
enough dice bags. 

923
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,600
Like, I don't need more dice 
bags. 

924
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:46,920
Yeah, I. 
Mean that's great, especially 

925
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,320
because we're all fucking old, 
you know what I mean? 

926
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,880
Like and getting older and and 
being able to have something 

927
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:57,280
that can be a little bit normie 
and not have like your entire 

928
00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,720
personality plastered on like 
your walls and plates and 

929
00:50:59,720 --> 00:51:02,400
everything. 
But but it is is is a cool thing

930
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:04,560
to have. 
I mean, you know, anime shirts 

931
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:06,040
and stuff. 
I think the best brands that do 

932
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:09,040
that are do are ones that do 
like cool designs that aren't 

933
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:14,720
just here's a shot from the 
fucking anime and you're you're 

934
00:51:15,240 --> 00:51:17,080
that that you're just talking 
about. 

935
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,880
You just cost me so much money. 
There is so much stuff on there.

936
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:21,960
That I'm buying now. 
I find it so funny. 

937
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,360
Nobody knows about Brain dead, 
but they're like probably the 

938
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:27,800
coolest, like gaming hobby 
brand, I think on the Internet. 

939
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,840
Like you have like, yeah, I, I 
don't want to throw names out, 

940
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,400
but there's this stuff where 
they like are trying to be that,

941
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,080
but they're like, taste is just 
off. 

942
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:38,560
It's just not it, you know? 
I think like some of the coolest

943
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:40,560
stuff that's happening are like 
bootleg Tees. 

944
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,040
Like I have like a Mordheim 
bootleg shirt on right now. 

945
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:45,280
Like the people who are doing 
like bootleg stuff is really 

946
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,520
sick and on to your like anime 
and stuff. 

947
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:50,760
There's like some cool brands 
who are just like dudes screen 

948
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:54,640
printing in their garage, like 
bootleg like Evangelion and 

949
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,920
stuff like Tees that are they 
design and look like really 

950
00:51:57,920 --> 00:51:59,160
sick. 
And you wouldn't necessarily 

951
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:04,000
know that it's like about that 
thing, but they make like a sick

952
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:05,800
like different version of a 
bootleg of it. 

953
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,280
That stuff is like so sick and I
want to bring that energy like 

954
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,280
into this stuff. 
That is, I mean, I got I got a 

955
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,200
bolt thrower shirt that fucking 
slaps. 

956
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:17,120
So some bootleg thing, billion 
dollar clown farms stuff that 

957
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,560
they were doing with like the 
fucking white monster. 

958
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:21,720
I got that's exactly. 
The best shit you know. 

959
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:26,240
The best dude. 
And, and yeah, I mean do fucking

960
00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:28,800
do it because I'll buy. 
All of it and. 

961
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:30,720
And and come on and talk about 
it. 

962
00:52:30,720 --> 00:52:33,120
But that's that's awesome, you 
know, and that's what the space 

963
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:37,440
it needs. 
We it just to to rant about 

964
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:40,000
capitalism for 30 seconds 
fucking sucks and it fucks us 

965
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,520
all. 
We lost so much like even just 

966
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:45,640
the physical, even when you get 
a fucking video game, you used 

967
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,360
to be able to crack it open and 
pull the little booklet out and 

968
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,520
actually learn some shit in 
there. 

969
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,720
We we don't have that. 
We don't own the things that we 

970
00:52:52,720 --> 00:52:55,720
own anymore. 
So being able to have a dope 

971
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,120
physical magazine, being able to
have like a sweet shirt, you 

972
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,520
know, made by, you know, people 
who stuff that you, you enjoy. 

973
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:06,000
It's important. 
And it's important to be able 

974
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:09,480
to, I mean, getting into a whole
like anthropological thing about

975
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:11,040
it. 
But to be able to code yourself 

976
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:15,160
the way that you want to be 
perceived and not just, you 

977
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:17,480
know, first stream or on the 
Internet is really important. 

978
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:22,240
So I, I, I love what you're 
doing because that is such a, a 

979
00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:24,720
great way to be able to do the 
things that we used to do. 

980
00:53:24,720 --> 00:53:27,880
Cuz I'm pretty sure I'm, I'm, 
I'm older than you by, by a 

981
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:29,360
couple of years at least. 
Yeah. 

982
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,720
And I miss all of that nostalgic
stuff from the 90s when we had 

983
00:53:33,720 --> 00:53:36,240
the exact same stuff you're 
talking about as just part and 

984
00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:38,440
parcel like it was. 
That was just, that was the 

985
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:39,760
culture, that was society, that 
was everything. 

986
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:42,520
I mean, talking about like how I
mentioned like Runescape when I 

987
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:46,320
was growing up, one of the 
things I carried like everywhere

988
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,880
was this like book that was like
the unofficial guide to 

989
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:52,600
Runescape. 
And it like was like told you 

990
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:54,320
how to do all this stuff in the 
game. 

991
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:58,560
Like another example is like in 
like game informers and stuff. 

992
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:01,080
They were like cheat codes and 
you could buy the books that 

993
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,240
were just full of cheat codes 
for like your favorite games. 

994
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:05,520
And it's like guides to games 
and stuff like that. 

995
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:10,960
Like now you just go to like 
Fextra Life or whatever and just

996
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:14,640
look up the guide to how to do 
like all of the shit. 

997
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:16,320
And then you never actually play
the game. 

998
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,960
You just follow the, like, 
optimal choices until you, like,

999
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:22,600
finish in the right ending you 
were hoping for. 

1000
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:26,760
And yeah, I think like, that 
would be really funny. 

1001
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:29,560
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

1002
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:34,680
But it'd be fun to even bring 
back like like that side of it 

1003
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:39,320
of like a book about like, I 
don't know, Valorance kind of 

1004
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,960
not the vibe, but like maybe 
there's like a cool thing where 

1005
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:47,080
you make like an unofficial 
guide to like like caves of Cud 

1006
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:48,840
or something. 
Or like, you know, these cool 

1007
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:50,600
game like Dwarf words. 
He's like different games that 

1008
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,640
are like more independent and 
interesting and put out like 

1009
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:58,280
books about these things where 
you can kind of consume that 

1010
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:01,400
content from like a different 
angle and talk about like the 

1011
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:04,400
book with a friend or whatever 
instead of just like finding all

1012
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,400
the stuff online. 
And like never actually, I feel 

1013
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:11,120
like we never we don't actually 
engage with games and stuff 

1014
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:13,120
anymore like the way that we 
used to. 

1015
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:16,640
I think like, I mean, I mean, 
now that I've mentioned like the

1016
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:18,520
fact that we just like look up 
guides for everything, I'm 

1017
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:22,880
getting like frustrated because 
I feel like with like MMORPGS or

1018
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:26,440
basically any game now, you look
up builds, right? 

1019
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:30,120
Like Elden Ring, you look up a 
build that tells you what to do 

1020
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:32,880
and then you do the build in the
game and then you beat all the 

1021
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:35,800
bosses with the build and then 
that's like the game, right? 

1022
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:41,000
Where like what happened to just
like not looking up anything, 

1023
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:44,760
playing the game, picking up the
cool sore that you think is cool

1024
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:47,400
and you put your skill points 
and like the shitty skills you 

1025
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:51,120
don't know any better and then 
you like make it through Just 

1026
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:54,240
like playing with the systems in
the game instead of just like 

1027
00:55:54,240 --> 00:55:57,640
pre emptively like beating the 
game via the Internet. 

1028
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:00,600
I don't know. 
It's just like it's so different

1029
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:02,320
and I don't know how we go back 
to that. 

1030
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:04,880
It's like the cat's out of the 
bag, but I don't know. 

1031
00:56:05,240 --> 00:56:10,200
Yeah, it's, I mean, that's so 
deep across so much of society 

1032
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:12,680
right now and just the way we've
been fucked for the last, you 

1033
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:16,480
know, 35 years. 
But it, a lot of it just comes 

1034
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:20,880
down to wanting to make sure 
that the exorbitant amount of 

1035
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:22,480
money that you paid for is worth
it. 

1036
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:27,200
So you want to beat the game. 
I think that saying that you 

1037
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,120
beat something has become much 
more popular than the journey of

1038
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:33,800
beating it yourself in the same 
way that taking pictures and 

1039
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:36,440
posting on the Internet. 
I watched this whole thing the 

1040
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:41,280
other day about where we get our
brain chemicals from and it used

1041
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:45,680
to be from experiencing a thing 
and now those same chemicals 

1042
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:48,360
aren't released it when they 
experience it. 

1043
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:52,120
It's released when you share it.
So our entire way that we 

1044
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:55,280
perceive and and translate the 
world has completely changed. 

1045
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:58,440
So being able to sit down and 
enjoy the journey. 

1046
00:56:58,720 --> 00:57:03,600
Attention demands are too short.
I think people's emotional death

1047
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:06,800
is shallow as a fucking puddle. 
I think people are afraid to 

1048
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:10,560
feel and everything is cringe 
and and actually getting like 

1049
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:12,920
deep within your own emotions is
not a thing that people do 

1050
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:14,480
anymore. 
Everything is surface level. 

1051
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:16,960
So why not just do the surface 
level of the game? 

1052
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,280
Why are you trying to scratch 
anything more than just like the

1053
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:22,440
tiny itch and say that, OK, I 
beat Eldon Ring, but like you 

1054
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,960
said, like did you when I played
Skyrim, I'll tell you what, I 

1055
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,920
put like fucking thousand hours 
into that game and I, I walked 

1056
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:31,120
across every inch of that ground
multiple times. 

1057
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:34,000
You know, I wasn't trying to 
find the easiest, quickest way. 

1058
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:36,120
But I think if that game came 
out now, exactly what happened 

1059
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:39,120
is what you're talking about. 
People would find like the main 

1060
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:41,360
5 quest lines, pick the one that
they want to do, look up the 

1061
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:43,400
guide for or go exactly where 
they're supposed to and then 

1062
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:45,000
say, boom, I beat Skyrim in 20 
hours. 

1063
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:46,640
Like, I don't know. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1064
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:50,080
So merit, Yeah, merit. 
Kay and her land parties article

1065
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:54,800
kind of blew my mind with a 
point she makes about how like 

1066
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:59,240
back in the day when you'd play 
like Call of Duty or Halo with 

1067
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:02,360
your friends wherever to come 
over and it'll get around the 

1068
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:05,880
console and play like four way 
split screen of like whatever, 

1069
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:10,120
right? 
And you'd play and your only 

1070
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:13,720
frame of reference for how good 
you were was like amongst your 

1071
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:18,080
friends on the console. 
And like there wasn't like a 

1072
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:23,360
meta progression of your like 
ranking on a leaderboard, right?

1073
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:25,360
It was literally just you and 
your friends. 

1074
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:27,320
And you just play with your 
friends right? 

1075
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:32,120
Now, if you play like any battle
Royale or whatever, you can see 

1076
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:35,200
like a level going up every time
you play. 

1077
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:39,640
And you're incentivized to be 
incredibly good at the game, 

1078
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:41,880
right? 
You're incentivized to like play

1079
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:44,880
aim trainers and all of this 
kind of stuff. 

1080
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:48,640
And you grind, right? 
Like you are incentivized to go 

1081
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:51,960
on this game not to have fun. 
Maybe it's fun to you, but like 

1082
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:54,240
you're incentive, like the fun 
is a side effect, right? 

1083
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:58,320
You're incentivized to get 
better, so your number goes up, 

1084
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:01,880
right? 
And I think that same thing 

1085
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:04,920
happens with what you're talking
about where we're no longer 

1086
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:07,160
incentivized to have fun at our 
hobbies. 

1087
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:09,280
We're incentivized to be good at
our hobbies. 

1088
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:14,040
And it's like that just oh, 
dude, it's crazy. 

1089
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:21,040
Like the fact that people feel 
like they need to be good DMS in

1090
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:24,640
comparison to what they're 
reading on blogs and stuff, 

1091
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:26,800
right? 
The fact that people feel like 

1092
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:30,000
they're miniatures that they're 
painting have to look like the 

1093
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:32,640
miniatures that they're seeing 
trending on Instagram. 

1094
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,200
It's insane. 
Like, you don't have to be good 

1095
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:38,040
at your hobbies. 
Like, that's not what a hobby 

1096
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:39,400
is. 
You don't have to be good at it.

1097
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:43,000
And like, that's even been a 
thing for me, rewiring my brain 

1098
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:45,600
where I'm like, starting to get 
more into painting minis and 

1099
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,840
stuff and being into that. 
And it's like, Oh yeah, I don't 

1100
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:53,000
have to share this on the seven 
Discord servers. 

1101
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:56,920
And they're like mini channel to
have people be like wow, click, 

1102
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:58,520
click like heart, heart, heart, 
heart, heart. 

1103
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:03,680
Or I don't have to feel bad when
the miniatures I'm painting like

1104
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:07,360
kind of suck and don't look like
what the dudes doing because. 

1105
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:11,760
I am spending all my time 
looking up YouTube videos on how

1106
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:15,320
to do the right wash to get the 
right effect to get it to look 

1107
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:18,920
like grim dark and like this and
look a certain way when what I 

1108
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:22,280
should be doing is just painting
my fucking minis in a way that I

1109
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:26,000
like and think it's fun. 
Like I like dipping them in the 

1110
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:29,120
paint and wiping it all off and 
like, like I could just be 

1111
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:32,320
having fun. 
But no, like we all we need to 

1112
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:37,480
look a certain way to the people
we look up to and oh dude, it's 

1113
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:40,000
just cross it all. 
It's crazy. 

1114
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:44,760
Anyway, sorry. 
No, our validation is external, 

1115
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:46,520
not internal. 
And it used to be completely 

1116
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:48,560
flipped I think. 
I mean I got a bunch of notes 

1117
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,040
that I say but online play ruin 
video games. 

1118
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:53,080
I don't give a. 
Fuck, that's what she says in. 

1119
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:55,920
Reasonable yeah that you're that
you're talking about, you know, 

1120
01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:58,000
and like Twitch is the same 
thing. 

1121
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:00,160
We're watching pro, so kids want
to be pro. 

1122
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:04,080
So yeah, they grind at a fucking
game like Apex, which sucks and 

1123
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:07,120
and just try to do that forever 
and again, stop having fun. 

1124
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:09,200
You know, I stopped playing when
I stopped having fun. 

1125
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:11,240
Why do you think AI is so big 
right now? 

1126
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:13,200
Aside from the fact that a lot 
of people just suck. 

1127
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:17,920
But what you hear a lot is 
people thinking that you have to

1128
01:01:18,040 --> 01:01:21,880
like, I'm not fucking Picasso 
the first time we put pen to 

1129
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:23,520
paper. 
So I might as well just feed it 

1130
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:26,120
into a machine that can do the 
thing that I want instead of 

1131
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:28,920
understanding that doing the 
work is the fun. 

1132
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:32,360
Doing the work is the point. 
Writing the thing and how it 

1133
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:34,520
makes you feel, drawing the 
thing and how it makes you feel 

1134
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:37,640
is the fucking point. 
It is that it is the journey. 

1135
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:41,320
It is we make along the way. 
It's not it's not just a fucking

1136
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:43,280
meme. 
And you know, with the paint 

1137
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:44,960
thing, I felt the exact way when
I started. 

1138
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:48,840
I was an art major in college. 
So when I started painting, I, I

1139
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:54,480
was going hard fucking OSL and 
fucking, you know, the, the non 

1140
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:56,640
metallic metals and the light 
and everything. 

1141
01:01:56,920 --> 01:01:59,520
When I, when I started dipping 
into the grim dark is when I was

1142
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:01,320
like, oh, I can, I can free 
myself a little bit. 

1143
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:04,640
I can just stop a base color 
and, and some fucking villainy 

1144
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:06,800
ink on this thing. 
And, and it looks scrawny and 

1145
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:08,440
gross. 
So they're super freeing to be 

1146
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:10,320
able to do that. 
But like I said, a lot of it 

1147
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:15,600
comes down to just our, our, our
dopamine hits, our validation is

1148
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:19,040
now external versus internal. 
And, and it sucks. 

1149
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:21,160
It's not good for you. 
Like it's not like they study 

1150
01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:22,280
after study after study. 
He says. 

1151
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:23,520
Like that's just not fucking 
good for you. 

1152
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:28,120
And, and the, the mass. 
And we'll have a private 

1153
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:29,760
conversation on how I feel about
some other stuff. 

1154
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:34,040
But but yeah, like feeling that 
every moment of your day has to 

1155
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:36,960
be monetized, which is part of 
that, but also part of the 

1156
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:39,240
economy that we exist in right 
now where it's just like if I'm 

1157
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:43,080
not making money, that's not 
that's food off my table right 

1158
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:45,440
now is is really, really 
disheartening. 

1159
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:49,880
So yeah, everything sucks except
like which which goes hard you. 

1160
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:52,560
Know which like, I don't know, 
is there like an irony to 

1161
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:56,920
talking about this while I make 
a product that is sold for 

1162
01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:59,640
money? 
Like I like to think that 

1163
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:02,240
they're different. 
And I think like we're still 

1164
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:05,200
exploring, even talking right 
now about like the kind of like 

1165
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:08,200
products I want to make about 
like bringing our hobby into our

1166
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:11,440
everyday life. 
Like I'd like to think those are

1167
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:16,760
different forms of consumption 
and it's a healthier version. 

1168
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:20,080
But I think only through 
exploring what we figure out if 

1169
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:24,040
that's like true, I don't know. 
It's one of those things that I 

1170
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:28,400
think is still something to 
think about and look at, you 

1171
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:30,480
know? 
One thing is to continue to 

1172
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:32,040
think about and look at it. 
We talked about it a little bit 

1173
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:35,560
earlier where is if you're 
making a thing because you enjoy

1174
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:38,440
making a thing and then you sell
it to people that will enjoy 

1175
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:43,520
consuming that thing is a very 
different thing than making a 

1176
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:45,920
thing with this express intent 
to sell. 

1177
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:48,880
Because that whole thing we just
talked about that internal 

1178
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:52,040
validation, that desire to 
connect with what you're making 

1179
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:54,320
and how other people connect to 
it is the difference. 

1180
01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:56,680
As long as you're still making 
the thing that you want to make,

1181
01:03:56,680 --> 01:03:59,320
the way you want to make it, and
you happen to be selling it 

1182
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:02,520
again, so different than making 
a thing to sell. 

1183
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:04,400
You can see that even game 
designers and stuff and stuff 

1184
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:07,440
they put out, you can see early 
projects versus late projects. 

1185
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:10,480
And as soon as you know, as soon
as you see DCC starting to sell 

1186
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:13,160
5 E stuff, you're like, well, 
get back a couple less 

1187
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:16,000
kickstarters now. 
Like there's, there's, there's a

1188
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:21,040
time when that, when that switch
flips and it becomes about the, 

1189
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:24,720
you know, the, the capitalism 
and the marketing and the money 

1190
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:26,160
and it becomes less about the 
hobby. 

1191
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:30,000
That's that's when you know, 
it's really going to suck. 

1192
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:32,560
But like you said, as long as 
you continue to question it, I 

1193
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:34,160
think Lei will be in a good 
spot, you know? 

1194
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:36,920
Yeah, and I think like you're 
saying it's like it's, it's 

1195
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:39,640
interesting because it's like 
obvious, like you can tell when 

1196
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:42,320
something's like one versus the 
other, even if like like in your

1197
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:43,560
gut, right? 
Even if you're not like 

1198
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:47,000
necessarily sure what's going 
on, you can like tell when it's 

1199
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:52,240
like genuine, authentic, real. 
And it's, and it's a Kickstarter

1200
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:55,280
that knows they're going to get 
their, you know, XYZ in a 

1201
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:59,160
certain amount of time, right? 
It's like it's obvious. 

1202
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:02,160
Yeah. 
It's, it's so interesting. 

1203
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:04,600
It's so interesting to think 
about too, because it's just 

1204
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:07,200
like, you know, especially 
heartbreaking because it's like 

1205
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:10,760
just absolutely devastated. 
Like the OSR and Indy space. 

1206
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:13,600
I feel like in TTRP GS where the
whole point of all of that was 

1207
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:15,200
like a counter to this kind of 
thing. 

1208
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:19,800
And we've just kind of been 
swallowed up to this point where

1209
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:24,720
now it's just like we're, you 
know, you look in the mirror and

1210
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:26,760
you're the villain. 
I guess it's it's kind of crazy 

1211
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:30,160
to just see it happen, but. 
You know, yeah, I, you know, 

1212
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:32,440
it's hard not to have opinions 
on the show, but it's my fucking

1213
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:35,280
show, so I'll say what I want. 
I don't personally think that 

1214
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:40,760
the indie space in the current 
what what's called the indie 

1215
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:43,400
community right now, this, this 
group of people and bloggers and

1216
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:46,000
things that is the indie space 
at all anymore, I refuse to 

1217
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:47,000
call. 
It I call. 

1218
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:50,680
It the small market space now 
yeah because everyone that hops 

1219
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:53,280
into it like here this is my 
first thing that I made it's a 

1220
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:56,520
$10,000 Kickstarter. 
You know this is the thousandth 

1221
01:05:56,520 --> 01:05:58,480
adventure for Merkborg. 
This is a 10 thousandth 

1222
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:01,200
adventure for Mothership. 
The innovation in the indie 

1223
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:03,680
aspect of it went away and you 
know where it is it's in the ink

1224
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:05,280
28 scene. 
It's the stuff that Tanner 

1225
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:08,160
Simpson is doing. 
It's the stuff that that fucking

1226
01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:11,360
White Tiger Tablecraft is doing.
Like that's where the real DIY 

1227
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:12,720
indie. 
I made it cuz it's cool. 

1228
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:15,800
If you buy it, that's fine. 
Kind of space you know exists 

1229
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:18,880
now and, and you can't, I mean, 
at the same time, you can't 

1230
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:22,280
blame in the previous space, it 
was a slow, slow capitulation to

1231
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:24,880
capitalism, but people got to 
pay the fucking bills. 

1232
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:27,080
I understand it just it sucks, 
you know? 

1233
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:30,640
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's why
Hive Skim was the first feature 

1234
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:35,520
in Clave, because I they are one
of the like the leading voices 

1235
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:39,600
in that where like, yeah, it's 
really interesting too, because 

1236
01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:43,400
I feel like even people need 28,
like don't know what OSR is. 

1237
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:47,360
And it's just so interesting 
coming at it like being rooted 

1238
01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:49,880
in like the other side and 
seeing what they're doing there 

1239
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:53,320
and being like, oh fuck yeah. 
This is like where this is how 

1240
01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:55,960
this started. 
And now it's like brewing up 

1241
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:59,440
here and it's really, yeah. 
It's like really exciting to see

1242
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:03,480
that same energy that brought us
into this space that we love so 

1243
01:07:03,480 --> 01:07:08,360
much existing and like a really 
like a really close other hobby.

1244
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:11,640
Like, I think it's crazy that 
like, they're so separate, you 

1245
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:13,840
know, because glad they're not, 
you know? 

1246
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:15,800
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.
You know what I mean? 

1247
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:17,880
It's like, yeah. 
But no, dude, I have this, we'll

1248
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:19,640
have a deeper conversation about
this, but I've had this 

1249
01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:22,320
conversation multiple times 
where like I'm like Ink 28 is 

1250
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:24,320
OSR if you get rid of the forge,
you know what I mean? 

1251
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:28,920
Like it's, it's what the space 
could have been and it's I hope 

1252
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:30,960
they stay separate. 
I hope they they never cross. 

1253
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:33,760
I'm glad that they don't have 
the same kind of baggage that 

1254
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:36,520
the teach RBG space has, because
it's the same bullshit 

1255
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:39,120
conversations and, and dead 
horse kicking that we're doing 

1256
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:41,120
all the fucking time over here 
in this space. 

1257
01:07:41,320 --> 01:07:45,160
And the, that space over there 
can have their own things. 

1258
01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:47,520
So I'm really hoping that 
there's not a big crossover. 

1259
01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:50,120
A lot of creators in the teach 
RBG space have been crossing 

1260
01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:51,560
over skirmish. 
I think that's great. 

1261
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:54,280
But I I really generally hope 
that those spaces don't like 

1262
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:56,120
actually meld, because I think 
it would be. 

1263
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:02,080
I mean, I think, but we get to. 
Experience both, you know. 

1264
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:05,640
Yeah, I mean, I wonder if Ink 
28's going to be, I don't know 

1265
01:08:05,640 --> 01:08:07,080
if this is true, but it's kind 
of funny. 

1266
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:11,760
I feel like with war gaming, 
like you can't just buy the shit

1267
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:14,480
and not, well, I guess people 
do, but you're kind of a poser 

1268
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:17,479
if you don't like fucking paint 
the minis and like do and engage

1269
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:19,479
with it. 
Like there's still that feeling 

1270
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:22,520
there where it's kind of like 
you're kind of cringe if you 

1271
01:08:22,520 --> 01:08:24,680
just buy the shit and like don't
do anything. 

1272
01:08:24,680 --> 01:08:27,040
Like and especially because like
kid bashing and stuff is such a 

1273
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:29,279
big thing there. 
It's like, oh, you bought the 

1274
01:08:29,279 --> 01:08:32,200
thing and like painted it the 
way it was on the box and like 

1275
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:34,399
did the way it told you to do. 
No, fuck that. 

1276
01:08:34,399 --> 01:08:36,520
Like you need to cut its head 
off and put a dragon fucking 

1277
01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:40,840
head on it and like paint it 
with like like artist oil paints

1278
01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:43,720
and then like rub it all in like
fucking Rustoleum or whatever. 

1279
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:46,680
And then like make this board, 
you know, there's just a lot 

1280
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:50,479
more like expectation to engage 
with the hobby, you know well. 

1281
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:55,080
There's a DIY aspect to it that 
I think that the, the small 

1282
01:08:55,080 --> 01:08:57,600
market space when, when it used 
to be the indie space had more 

1283
01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:00,840
because people would just print 
it in their rooms or do the 

1284
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:02,560
layout themselves or do 
whatever. 

1285
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:05,600
And again, it's become 
everything is, is so polished 

1286
01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:08,279
that you know, you can just like
read to an artist, pay them 

1287
01:09:08,279 --> 01:09:10,960
money, you can just print it 
all, mix them for XML. 

1288
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:13,920
Like there's a, you know, 
obviously you're writing, you're

1289
01:09:13,920 --> 01:09:16,800
you're doing stuff, but the 
actual like DIY with your hands 

1290
01:09:16,800 --> 01:09:18,880
kind of aspect of the hobby has 
slipped. 

1291
01:09:18,880 --> 01:09:22,120
And I think in the war game 
space, I think 28 space, all the

1292
01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:25,479
stuff, it's part and parcel. 
Like you can't really separate 

1293
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:26,880
the two. 
Like buying them in these, 

1294
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:29,680
having to put, even if you just 
do, I don't care if you do heavy

1295
01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:33,279
metal, heavy metal and like 2 
box art shit, you still have to 

1296
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:36,560
get it off the screw, glue the 
shit together and fucking paint 

1297
01:09:36,560 --> 01:09:38,800
it. 
So there's a there is more of AI

1298
01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:41,520
don't want to say investment, 
but like an engagement with, 

1299
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:45,120
with the space that I that I'm 
hoping, but it seems to have 

1300
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:47,760
kept it in the way that it is 
for a long time. 

1301
01:09:48,319 --> 01:09:52,359
So but I think it is a little 
bit of that like over polishing 

1302
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:56,120
in in the TRPG space that has 
has moved it a little bit away 

1303
01:09:56,120 --> 01:09:59,320
from the the DIY aspects, but. 
Yeah, and kind of what you 

1304
01:09:59,320 --> 01:10:03,360
mentioned too, which is 
interesting, is like it's almost

1305
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:06,360
like a second. 
The 828 stuff is almost doing 

1306
01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:13,560
like a second discovery of 
role-playing games where like 

1307
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:19,880
back when you know, like DND 1st
was created, right, you had like

1308
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:23,760
war gaming and you had like, you
know, the bronze scenes and 

1309
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:25,160
David Wesley doing all that kind
of stuff. 

1310
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:28,360
And then Blackmore and you let 
into like what DND was. 

1311
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:33,080
It's almost funny where I feel 
like the Ink 28 people are like 

1312
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:37,200
wanting to be more narrative and
wanting to like have smaller war

1313
01:10:37,200 --> 01:10:41,640
bands and like have just like 1 
mini who I'm like role-playing 

1314
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:44,720
and but you know, but like the 
rules are just like skirmish 

1315
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:46,280
rules, right? 
So there's not like charisma and

1316
01:10:46,280 --> 01:10:47,880
shit like that. 
I'm just role-playing my little 

1317
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:50,920
like Inquisitor. 
And now we're like, you know, 

1318
01:10:51,200 --> 01:10:55,520
we've got these cool scenario 
like campaign play rules for 

1319
01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:59,080
having a long form campaign. 
And it's like, oh, they're just 

1320
01:10:59,080 --> 01:11:03,520
literally like rediscovering 
role-playing games, you know, 

1321
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:06,200
like it's just, it's such a 
funny parallel. 

1322
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:08,640
And it's just so sick though, 
because it's coming from this 

1323
01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:13,160
like flavor of in 28 grim dark. 
But like you mentioned Tanner 

1324
01:11:13,160 --> 01:11:16,760
Simpson with like his wanted CC 
40,000 or whatever. 

1325
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:21,920
Yeah, dude, like that. 
That is like you're kind of 

1326
01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:24,200
having that like first hit of 
like, wait, this is a 

1327
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:27,680
role-playing game. 
But he's, but he's talking about

1328
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:31,920
it being a skirmish game like, 
but it's not, it's like now 

1329
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:34,920
we're crossing this thing and 
it's just like so sick to be 

1330
01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:38,600
like, oh, wait, we're just doing
this all over again, but from 

1331
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:40,720
like a really sick other side, 
you know? 

1332
01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:43,360
Which I love, which I think is 
going to be a really good base 

1333
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:46,040
for it because every time I find
someone's dope ass skirmish 

1334
01:11:46,040 --> 01:11:49,320
shit, right, I find their itch 
and like miscast has a bunch of 

1335
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:52,000
RPG shit on on their itch. 
And it's just like, you know, 

1336
01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:55,040
miscast is fucking miscast. 
But like, of course they do 

1337
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:57,960
because that's what it is. 
And I, I personally, you know, 

1338
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:01,880
I, I like the emergent narrative
aspects of skirmish. 

1339
01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:05,360
That is where my brain is going 
like way more than anything 

1340
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:08,360
happening in the theory space in
the role-playing in role-playing

1341
01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:10,520
games. 
Because I I've always liked to 

1342
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:12,040
merge a narrative. 
It's one of the reasons that 

1343
01:12:12,040 --> 01:12:14,560
we're such big Adam Bass fans 
here on the show. 

1344
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:17,200
Like they just give you the 
tools and then you play with it 

1345
01:12:17,200 --> 01:12:20,440
versus being told how to play 
with your toys and everything 

1346
01:12:20,440 --> 01:12:22,440
they do. 
And especially with the way 

1347
01:12:22,440 --> 01:12:25,000
hypes come is pushing the entire
community to be more narrative. 

1348
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:27,600
And who gives a fuck if you're 
half an inch off if the story 

1349
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:30,920
beat is cooler And you know, 
with Wardheim and and Inquisitor

1350
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:32,960
and all the rest of this stuff, 
being able to play, that's 

1351
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:36,800
exactly what I want to do when I
play my skirmish games is I role

1352
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:39,760
play, but I like being able to 
peel. 

1353
01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:44,760
Like just zoom out once where 
I'm not role-playing one dude 

1354
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:50,600
and and looking for a story. 
I'm watching my 5 dudes go into 

1355
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:53,200
a game not knowing who they are 
and through their roles being 

1356
01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:54,240
like, well this guy missed a 
bunch. 

1357
01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:55,920
He sucks. 
This guy hit when it was 

1358
01:12:55,920 --> 01:12:58,200
important. 
So now I know like he's the go 

1359
01:12:58,200 --> 01:12:59,920
to. 
He's the one that's like getting

1360
01:12:59,920 --> 01:13:02,720
ragged on like these. 
The story emerges. 

1361
01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:04,920
That's why, that's why, that's 
why. 

1362
01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:06,960
Battle, not battle. 
Battle passes. 

1363
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:09,400
Battle reports exist. 
Being able to tell the story of 

1364
01:13:09,400 --> 01:13:11,960
what happened. 
Not writing a story before you 

1365
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:14,280
play and then seeing what 
happens like. 

1366
01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:18,880
And being like, oh, you, you 
made this like ritual, like 

1367
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:22,080
fountain or something that you 
placed on the map just for fun. 

1368
01:13:22,440 --> 01:13:26,560
But like what happens when I 
like, you know, kill my unit on 

1369
01:13:26,560 --> 01:13:27,920
the ritual fountain or 
something? 

1370
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:29,520
Like there's no rules for what 
happens. 

1371
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:33,240
You just like agree that like 
something happens based on the 

1372
01:13:33,240 --> 01:13:36,520
fiction and it's like we kind 
of, you know, this is going to, 

1373
01:13:36,520 --> 01:13:38,960
I don't know how much time we 
have, but we kind of mentioned 

1374
01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:45,040
when we were at packs like the 
like OSR to FKR thing and how. 

1375
01:13:45,480 --> 01:13:49,800
And that's like also happening 
there where, you know, I feel 

1376
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:54,440
like a lot of us in like the, 
you know, OSR space are like 

1377
01:13:55,240 --> 01:14:00,080
trying to devolve back to like 
this FKR like pre Gygax thing 

1378
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:03,800
where like there aren't really 
rules and you play the world. 

1379
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:07,360
And you know, the ink 28 thing 
is starting to evolve to this 

1380
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:11,080
thing where it's like, oh, now I
can like pretend to be that dude

1381
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:14,920
and we can watch like the world 
result in emergent narrative 

1382
01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:21,000
because I'm 100% with you. 
Like I have 0 interest in, in 

1383
01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:24,680
certain styles of like RPG play 
that put the onus on me to 

1384
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:26,760
determine what happens in the 
game, right? 

1385
01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:30,720
Like I want to just make 
decisions and I want my 

1386
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:35,480
decisions based on the like laws
of the world I'm playing in to 

1387
01:14:35,480 --> 01:14:38,760
determine outcomes that I would 
like never expect, you know? 

1388
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:42,000
And so in a similar vein of what
you're talking about, it's like,

1389
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:47,560
I don't want to give this 
person, you know, XYI mean, OK, 

1390
01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:49,880
personality and stuff is is 
fine, but I don't want to like 

1391
01:14:50,120 --> 01:14:52,240
decide what's going to happen to
this dude. 

1392
01:14:52,480 --> 01:14:56,080
I want him to miss like 7 shots 
and that determine what happens 

1393
01:14:56,080 --> 01:14:58,720
to this dude, right? 
Or, or how I look at this dude 

1394
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:03,680
or whatever, which I think is, 
yeah, it's like you kind of were

1395
01:15:03,680 --> 01:15:05,800
shown. 
It's like this funny connection 

1396
01:15:05,800 --> 01:15:07,760
where where we're both like 
hitting on this thing. 

1397
01:15:07,760 --> 01:15:09,320
It's it's so fascinating. 
Yeah. 

1398
01:15:09,480 --> 01:15:12,200
It's it's weird kind of Benjamin
buttoning going in opposite 

1399
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:14,480
directions and at the end of the
day guess what? 

1400
01:15:14,520 --> 01:15:16,840
Fucking OD and D was a war game 
baby like. 

1401
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:20,320
They're yeah, no, totally. 
I mean, not the Gygax is is a 

1402
01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:23,160
person that you should listen to
at all about fucking anything. 

1403
01:15:24,440 --> 01:15:27,560
But they straight up said like 
basically the role-playing. 

1404
01:15:27,560 --> 01:15:31,080
This isn't a game. 
The fucking role player like to 

1405
01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:33,480
do what we're doing now, acting 
and improving and all that kind 

1406
01:15:33,480 --> 01:15:35,520
of stuff. 
Because if you actually look at 

1407
01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:38,520
the OSR is is built on a fucking
bed of lies. 

1408
01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:40,040
People do not play the game that
way. 

1409
01:15:40,480 --> 01:15:44,080
There was like 10 people and 
like 20 hirelings with like mobs

1410
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:45,640
of people going through dungeons
and stuff. 

1411
01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:48,160
That's a reason to mojores is 
like, it is because you're going

1412
01:15:48,160 --> 01:15:52,240
to have 15 guys go through it. 
Yeah, yeah, the OSR is anything 

1413
01:15:52,240 --> 01:15:55,680
but. 
It is anything but the the old 

1414
01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:59,200
school revival, but the the 
emergent narrative. 

1415
01:15:59,200 --> 01:16:01,760
It like I said, is, is, is, I 
don't know, that's the fun 

1416
01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:03,680
parts. 
That's that's the the cool bits.

1417
01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:06,960
And that's why I'm especially 
here on the show, been trying to

1418
01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:11,520
push more into the skirmish 
space and show people more of of

1419
01:16:11,520 --> 01:16:13,040
kind of that aspect of what's 
going on. 

1420
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:15,680
It's also a lot of times you'll 
need one other person. 

1421
01:16:15,880 --> 01:16:18,040
It's a lot easier than trying to
get four people together for a 

1422
01:16:18,040 --> 01:16:20,120
weekly fucking game if you just 
want to sit down and. 

1423
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:25,040
I mean, we, we talk about a lot 
in the OSR space of like being a

1424
01:16:25,040 --> 01:16:27,560
referee and not like, you know, 
AGM or whatever, right? 

1425
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:30,840
Where like these games are so 
much that that you literally 

1426
01:16:30,840 --> 01:16:32,520
don't even need somebody to run 
the game. 

1427
01:16:32,600 --> 01:16:36,920
Like the rules only, you know, 
give you like, you know, I roll 

1428
01:16:36,920 --> 01:16:39,440
this to see if I hit you or not.
You, you literally don't even 

1429
01:16:39,440 --> 01:16:43,960
need like a person to paint the 
world for you because you both 

1430
01:16:44,040 --> 01:16:47,000
like know how this works. 
And we can feel, like you said, 

1431
01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:49,520
just me and you, we can figure 
out what the story is by having 

1432
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:51,640
this dude, like fall off the top
of a building or something 

1433
01:16:51,640 --> 01:16:52,720
because that's what the role 
said. 

1434
01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:57,400
I mean, it's just, and it also 
comes down to like wanting to 

1435
01:16:57,400 --> 01:17:01,040
play games if you like games, 
like there's definitely a lot 

1436
01:17:01,040 --> 01:17:05,040
more game styles that exist out 
there, but kind of like the two 

1437
01:17:05,040 --> 01:17:09,880
big ones in the small market 
space are really like OSR and 

1438
01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:13,280
story games. 
And OSR is just such a 

1439
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:16,480
genericized, bastardized term 
that means fucking nothing. 

1440
01:17:16,480 --> 01:17:19,520
But it's basically if you have 
dice and it's roughly done as a 

1441
01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:24,840
Dragon's ish, you can call it 
OSR because OSR died in 2019. 

1442
01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:27,600
Don't even get started, but. 
I would even argue if it looks 

1443
01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:29,920
like Morkborg you can call it 
OSR. 

1444
01:17:30,160 --> 01:17:31,760
Oh, it is because Morkborg is at
the end. 

1445
01:17:31,760 --> 01:17:33,880
Of the day, basically. 
Fucking Dave Hack, Yeah. 

1446
01:17:34,160 --> 01:17:35,920
Yeah. 
Well, it's like, yeah, yeah, 

1447
01:17:36,040 --> 01:17:40,440
yeah. 
But what was I saying? 

1448
01:17:40,440 --> 01:17:42,080
Where was I going? 
I got lost. 

1449
01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:46,920
You were saying that you can 
call anything OSR, you just have

1450
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:48,720
to like roll by story games, 
right? 

1451
01:17:48,720 --> 01:17:52,200
Yeah, story games really at. 
The end of the day is don't get 

1452
01:17:52,200 --> 01:17:54,240
me started on so much stuff that
I want to say. 

1453
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:55,520
I'll talk to you about it 
afterwards. 

1454
01:17:56,040 --> 01:17:59,480
But there's just there's more 
than just those styles of play. 

1455
01:17:59,920 --> 01:18:05,160
But one, I think I like games 
that feel like games and a lot 

1456
01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:07,120
of story games to me. 
One of the reasons I don't lean 

1457
01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:11,840
into that kind of space is it 
more than not to me feels just 

1458
01:18:11,840 --> 01:18:14,960
like a series of prompts. 
Like I don't want a game of just

1459
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:18,720
improv prompts to role play. 
To me, the game is the game. 

1460
01:18:18,720 --> 01:18:20,600
And I think with a lot of story 
games, it feels like the 

1461
01:18:20,600 --> 01:18:23,600
role-playing is the game and I 
and that is a very valid way to 

1462
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:25,200
have fun. 
And I think a lot of people 

1463
01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:28,800
really enjoy that. 
That's not the fun that I enjoy.

1464
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:32,120
I'm a systems guy. 
I like the mechanics, so having 

1465
01:18:32,120 --> 01:18:35,480
narrative skirmish where I can 
have the emergent story of my 

1466
01:18:35,480 --> 01:18:39,680
guys, but also interact with the
mechanics in a way that he's 

1467
01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:43,320
meant to be the mechanics versus
like wanting them to get out of 

1468
01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:45,720
the way or this or that. 
You know, don't even be started 

1469
01:18:45,720 --> 01:18:50,040
on blades, but that's. 
I mean like games I feel. 

1470
01:18:50,040 --> 01:18:52,000
Like games, you know, like that.
That's how I. 

1471
01:18:52,040 --> 01:18:55,880
Feel I think, yeah, I mean, I 
think like the the only problem 

1472
01:18:55,880 --> 01:18:58,760
with story games is that we call
them RPGs like that's the only 

1473
01:18:58,760 --> 01:19:02,360
problem, right? 
Like, I think, yeah, but I mean,

1474
01:19:02,560 --> 01:19:04,560
then maybe we have to call we're
doing something different 

1475
01:19:04,560 --> 01:19:08,560
because like I, I think like I 
so I played 10 candles, like 

1476
01:19:09,440 --> 01:19:11,520
actually over packs, like at 
that night, right. 

1477
01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:14,240
But tank candles is just a 
prompt game, right? 

1478
01:19:14,240 --> 01:19:18,240
Like it's a story game, right? 
And so like, and it was really 

1479
01:19:18,240 --> 01:19:22,960
fun, but like it's not what 
we're doing in this other side 

1480
01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:24,800
of the hop. 
Like they're not the same thing,

1481
01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:27,920
but we call them the same thing.
So you get these like issues 

1482
01:19:27,920 --> 01:19:31,520
where people are like you're not
playing an RPG, like, I don't 

1483
01:19:31,520 --> 01:19:34,080
know, they're like the the feud 
between like story gamers and 

1484
01:19:34,080 --> 01:19:37,240
OSR or whatever. 
I think it's just like a matter 

1485
01:19:37,240 --> 01:19:39,080
of the fact that we're 
pretending like we're both 

1486
01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:41,520
talking about a sandwich, but 
like 1's a burrito and one's 

1487
01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:44,080
like a, a fucking Philly cheese 
steak or something. 

1488
01:19:44,080 --> 01:19:46,240
Like it's just not pushed. 
Back on that a little bit, I 

1489
01:19:46,240 --> 01:19:48,440
think so video games, for 
example, there's a huge 

1490
01:19:48,440 --> 01:19:53,080
difference between let's say a 
roguelike and and and like a 

1491
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:56,360
souls born or like a 
Metroidvania, right, and a 

1492
01:19:56,360 --> 01:19:58,640
Metroidvania and a roguelike, 
especially if you have like an 

1493
01:19:58,640 --> 01:20:01,840
isometric roguelike versus a 
size probably Metrovania. 

1494
01:20:01,840 --> 01:20:03,920
They're both video games, right,
but they are incredibly 

1495
01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:05,240
different games. 
The issue. 

1496
01:20:05,800 --> 01:20:10,280
That I find often that I bounce 
off of and get angry about is 

1497
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:13,280
the way people talk about them. 
Because you're not. 

1498
01:20:13,760 --> 01:20:15,960
You're always going to find 
douchebags everywhere, but you 

1499
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:19,520
don't see Metroidvadian people 
often telling people that their 

1500
01:20:19,520 --> 01:20:22,160
isometric rogue light is wrong, 
right? 

1501
01:20:22,160 --> 01:20:24,480
That it's not a real video game,
that that's not how it's 

1502
01:20:24,480 --> 01:20:27,280
supposed to be played and stuff.
You see that all the fucking 

1503
01:20:27,280 --> 01:20:29,640
time. 
They teach RPG Space where you 

1504
01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:31,600
have someone come out with this 
new fucking blog post that 

1505
01:20:31,600 --> 01:20:34,840
basically says the OSR is wrong,
the OSR is always wrong or this 

1506
01:20:34,840 --> 01:20:36,960
or that, and story games is the 
right way to play and your fun 

1507
01:20:36,960 --> 01:20:38,520
is wrong. 
Like that. 

1508
01:20:38,520 --> 01:20:41,200
I think is the issue more than 
anything is that we had these 

1509
01:20:41,200 --> 01:20:43,600
delineations for a reason. 
And if people stayed in their 

1510
01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:46,800
own fucking lane and stopped 
speaking from a place of 

1511
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:50,480
authority when they're not 
talking about what they're 

1512
01:20:50,480 --> 01:20:52,320
talking about. 
Like, I feel like what I get a 

1513
01:20:52,320 --> 01:20:56,960
lot and I related to music a 
bunch is someone who only 

1514
01:20:56,960 --> 01:21:03,400
listens to fucking pop music, 
right, Complaining that why is 

1515
01:21:03,400 --> 01:21:05,840
there like thrash metal guitar 
in my music? 

1516
01:21:05,840 --> 01:21:08,640
And it's like, well, because 
that's not, that's not your 

1517
01:21:08,640 --> 01:21:11,160
music, you know, And I, and 
that's the issue that I see in 

1518
01:21:11,160 --> 01:21:14,840
the space A lot is people that 
try to like you clearly only 

1519
01:21:14,840 --> 01:21:17,400
play story games, But then all 
you write about is bitching 

1520
01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:19,360
about why OSR is bad and vice 
versa. 

1521
01:21:20,760 --> 01:21:23,120
And I mean, I think you see that
more from the OSR space on other

1522
01:21:23,120 --> 01:21:24,600
stuff. 
But I think that's the issue to 

1523
01:21:24,600 --> 01:21:27,400
me is that people haven't, we 
don't have a centralized 

1524
01:21:27,400 --> 01:21:29,040
language. 
People call the same thing. 

1525
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:31,240
The number of times I've seen 
people arguing and they're 

1526
01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:33,200
making the same fucking point, 
but they're using different 

1527
01:21:33,200 --> 01:21:35,800
language for it. 
So they think that they're wrong

1528
01:21:35,800 --> 01:21:40,200
is is different. 
And the the inability for people

1529
01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:42,440
to kind of like stay in their 
lane and talk about what they 

1530
01:21:42,440 --> 01:21:44,720
want to talk about versus the 
things that they and what they 

1531
01:21:44,720 --> 01:21:46,840
like versus the things that they
don't like about the things that

1532
01:21:46,960 --> 01:21:51,000
aren't part of their hobby is, 
in my opinion, like the big, the

1533
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:53,720
the bigger problem that we have 
in like the thoughts and the 

1534
01:21:53,720 --> 01:21:55,520
teach RPG space. 
It's not that separation. 

1535
01:21:55,520 --> 01:21:58,080
It's the way that we talk across
those lines, but. 

1536
01:21:58,200 --> 01:22:00,840
You said more elegantly, more 
elegantly what I was trying to 

1537
01:22:00,840 --> 01:22:05,360
say, but yeah, yeah. 
But totally sorry for those 

1538
01:22:05,360 --> 01:22:08,160
watching. 
When we met at PAX, I I knew the

1539
01:22:08,160 --> 01:22:09,920
conversation was going to go 
like this and this is what I 

1540
01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:12,920
wanted the conversation to be. 
So we're not really talking 

1541
01:22:12,920 --> 01:22:16,000
about Glaive, but I. 
What is talking? 

1542
01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:17,560
I mean, we talked, we talked 
about Glaive. 

1543
01:22:17,560 --> 01:22:19,480
I just wanted to talk about this
kind of stuff because I, I 

1544
01:22:19,480 --> 01:22:21,360
agree. 
Yeah, that's that's what I was 

1545
01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:26,800
trying to say because because 
like, you know, if you like, you

1546
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:31,040
know, start from the OSR side, 
you kind of are like told to not

1547
01:22:31,040 --> 01:22:34,160
like story games, right? 
Like it's kind of like the what 

1548
01:22:34,440 --> 01:22:37,360
it's like the general consensus 
is that they're doing it wrong. 

1549
01:22:37,640 --> 01:22:39,840
But then maybe you like play a 
game and you're like, wait, but 

1550
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:41,080
this was actually like kind of 
fun. 

1551
01:22:41,080 --> 01:22:43,440
Am I not allowed to have fun by 
like pretending, you know, to 

1552
01:22:43,640 --> 01:22:44,880
building a story with my 
friends? 

1553
01:22:45,240 --> 01:22:47,240
But it's. 
Also so weird too because you 

1554
01:22:47,280 --> 01:22:49,320
know, I'm not, I'm not a PBTA 
person. 

1555
01:22:50,840 --> 01:22:53,640
I'm not either that thoroughly. 
But I'll say that Apocalypse 

1556
01:22:53,640 --> 01:22:58,640
world's like GM section, bro, 
you're they're telling me to 

1557
01:22:58,640 --> 01:23:00,360
play an OSR game too. 
You know what I mean? 

1558
01:23:00,360 --> 01:23:02,480
Like that's what I don't 
understand is if people could 

1559
01:23:02,480 --> 01:23:06,320
just be happy like pulling the 
bits they like from store games 

1560
01:23:06,320 --> 01:23:08,840
and OSR and vice versa, or 
pulling the bits they like from 

1561
01:23:08,840 --> 01:23:11,000
board games and pulling the bits
they like from video games. 

1562
01:23:11,200 --> 01:23:14,080
But a lot of the teach RPG 
spaces like this is my space. 

1563
01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:16,120
It has to be done the way that I
want to. 

1564
01:23:16,120 --> 01:23:17,920
I'm not going to get inspired by
other people and I'm going to 

1565
01:23:17,920 --> 01:23:19,720
complain about the other spaces 
that they're doing it wrong 

1566
01:23:19,720 --> 01:23:21,440
because it's not the way my 
brain works. 

1567
01:23:21,840 --> 01:23:25,160
You know, it's it's it's rules 
alive, exacerbated across an 

1568
01:23:25,160 --> 01:23:28,200
entire fucking space. 
Like this is this is an article 

1569
01:23:28,200 --> 01:23:31,000
whether I agree or disagree with
Sinclair, he they literally say 

1570
01:23:31,000 --> 01:23:33,240
right at the beginning, this is 
how my brain works and you're 

1571
01:23:33,240 --> 01:23:35,640
probably going to disagree. 
And then people got mad and 

1572
01:23:35,640 --> 01:23:37,920
disagreed and it's like they 
said right off the bat, like I 

1573
01:23:37,920 --> 01:23:40,600
can disagree and not be mad at 
them for what they said, but you

1574
01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:43,000
know, people are mad. 
So it's just weird. 

1575
01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:46,280
It is what it is. 
Totally, totally. 

1576
01:23:47,240 --> 01:23:51,120
So we we're we're, we're we're 
over by a while and I feel like 

1577
01:23:51,120 --> 01:23:53,000
if we keep going, this 
conversation go for the rest of 

1578
01:23:53,000 --> 01:23:55,200
the day. 
So why don't we wrap here and 

1579
01:23:55,200 --> 01:23:56,440
we're definitely going to have 
you back. 

1580
01:23:56,440 --> 01:23:58,040
I know we talked a little bit 
about something. 

1581
01:23:58,040 --> 01:24:00,120
I'll talk to you after the show 
about another episode. 

1582
01:24:00,120 --> 01:24:01,400
I'd love to have your opinions 
on. 

1583
01:24:02,640 --> 01:24:05,560
But for those that that that 
don't see the website on the 

1584
01:24:05,560 --> 01:24:07,480
screen right now, where it or 
glave or anything? 

1585
01:24:07,480 --> 01:24:09,320
Where can people find you? 
Where can people find your 

1586
01:24:09,320 --> 01:24:11,320
stuff? 
Where can people find Glave and 

1587
01:24:11,320 --> 01:24:12,280
everything we talked about 
today? 

1588
01:24:12,720 --> 01:24:15,600
Yeah, so Hot Head Collective, 
you can go to the website. 

1589
01:24:16,840 --> 01:24:19,240
Instagram is like the only 
social media I'm really like 

1590
01:24:19,240 --> 01:24:21,000
doing anything on. 
I think there's like a Twitter 

1591
01:24:21,080 --> 01:24:23,080
account, but I I don't do 
anything on it. 

1592
01:24:24,640 --> 01:24:27,960
So at Hot Head, I believe it's 
at Hot Head under score 

1593
01:24:27,960 --> 01:24:32,880
Collective on Instagram. 
That's like probably to keep up.

1594
01:24:33,120 --> 01:24:35,520
I mean, I guess, I guess I don't
really post on my personal, but 

1595
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:37,880
you can follow it if you want. 
Sometimes I'll post up there. 

1596
01:24:37,880 --> 01:24:43,000
It's at CJ some days is me as 
like CJA person, but everything 

1597
01:24:43,000 --> 01:24:45,960
else is a hot head collective, 
you know, so there's the 

1598
01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:49,400
website, there's there's the 
Instagram. 

1599
01:24:49,400 --> 01:24:53,480
We have a discord server. 
I want to do more there, but 

1600
01:24:53,480 --> 01:24:56,240
it's just like figuring out what
that looks like at the moment. 

1601
01:24:56,240 --> 01:24:58,680
So that we didn't talk about is 
like what I want to start having

1602
01:24:58,680 --> 01:25:01,400
this be as well as like events. 
I want to start hosting events 

1603
01:25:01,400 --> 01:25:06,120
in the city and I want to see 
what like cool events online can

1604
01:25:06,120 --> 01:25:09,960
be that are different than maybe
what we're like already doing. 

1605
01:25:09,960 --> 01:25:12,040
So I want to explore that. 
So the Discord server, if you're

1606
01:25:12,040 --> 01:25:14,200
like at all interested in that, 
but I don't know how soon that 

1607
01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:17,840
is, but maybe like, like movie 
watch parties, I don't know 

1608
01:25:17,840 --> 01:25:20,800
stuff online. 
Trying to build that third space

1609
01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:23,200
on Discord that's more than just
like yelling at each other in 

1610
01:25:23,200 --> 01:25:28,360
like a channel, you know? 
So yeah, so the website, the 

1611
01:25:28,360 --> 01:25:30,320
Discord, the Instagram, those 
are the three spots I would say 

1612
01:25:30,320 --> 01:25:31,920
if you're trying to keep up with
what's going on. 

1613
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:35,480
And again, it's the fucking 
Internet. 

1614
01:25:35,480 --> 01:25:37,880
So just Scroll down a little bit
and you'll find all the links to

1615
01:25:37,880 --> 01:25:39,120
that. 
If you if you're, if you're 

1616
01:25:39,120 --> 01:25:43,360
listening, whether you're on 
podcast or on the Youtubes, but 

1617
01:25:43,360 --> 01:25:47,320
listen so great talking to you. 
I like you said the second we 

1618
01:25:47,320 --> 01:25:50,440
met and and three sentences and 
I was like, all right, this, 

1619
01:25:50,440 --> 01:25:53,120
this is a homie. 
Like this is someone who who who

1620
01:25:53,120 --> 01:25:55,960
thinks in the same realm of 
thought and, and I enjoy the 

1621
01:25:55,960 --> 01:25:58,000
same kind of shit And, and I 
love what you're doing. 

1622
01:25:58,280 --> 01:26:03,040
I really, you know, I all I can 
say is keep fucking doing it. 

1623
01:26:03,040 --> 01:26:04,600
Like I'm getting number three. 
I've already got the fucking 

1624
01:26:04,600 --> 01:26:06,520
shirt, like drop the merch and 
I'll get that too. 

1625
01:26:06,880 --> 01:26:09,640
And please come back anytime you
fucking want. 

1626
01:26:09,640 --> 01:26:12,680
Every time you drop an issue, 
like please come back and we can

1627
01:26:12,680 --> 01:26:14,680
have some more conversations. 
But it's been great chat with 

1628
01:26:14,680 --> 01:26:17,120
you. 
Thank you brother, 1000% I'm 

1629
01:26:17,120 --> 01:26:18,400
down. 
We can talk about anything and 

1630
01:26:18,400 --> 01:26:20,520
everything. 
Just send me Adm. 

1631
01:26:20,520 --> 01:26:21,360
I'm ready. 
Yeah. 

1632
01:26:21,800 --> 01:26:23,640
We'll see what we're going to 
get yelled on on the Internet 

1633
01:26:23,640 --> 01:26:25,520
for next time. 
Beautiful. 

1634
01:26:25,520 --> 01:26:27,800
So yeah, once again, thank you 
so much and thank you for 

1635
01:26:27,800 --> 01:26:30,800
everyone that was here watching.
And we'll see you next time, 

1636
01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:31,520
everybody. 
Bye.