Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll Podcast.
My name is Ryan and with me today we have CJ Somovia of Hot
Head Collective. How are you doing, CJ?
Great dude and you nailed it. Well done.
Fucking did it. Fucking did it.
So for those that may not know who you are, who, who the heck
are you? My name is CJ, as you said, I
run this little thing called the Hot Head Collective, which is
just me, but it's a collective because all the stuff I put out,
it's never just me. You know how a lot of these
things go. It's like always a group of
really cool people that I pull together to like make something
awesome happen. The main thing that we're
probably going to talk about and the thing that has like been
popping off lately is this magazine I produce called the
Glaive, which you have. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So Glaive is like this lifestyle magazine that I have run issue
2, working on Issue 3 right now. It's my attempt at like bringing
a Thrasher type magazine to the, like, gaming space.
So it's like not a lot of gaming content.
It's a lot of like talking about how we play our games, like
what's happening in our community, like what's happening
in our gaming cultures, that kind of stuff.
So yeah. Yeah, it's, it's an interesting
space to have a thing like that 'cause it feels like a what did
we say at PAX? It feels like a yeah, like a
culture magazine or like a like a game.
Like a magazine, as you said about games, but not games
themselves really. Which is awesome because I mean
you got I assume these are hivescom hands on the.
Yeah, those are Hivescom hands of the first one.
Yeah. Yeah, you.
Got to have the mummy in there. Well, you have to shout out the
the giraffe on the back too, though the the kit bash on the
back is amazing. Yeah, yeah.
Is that is that that's Avon Gallion, right?
I yeah, I don't know what those guys put it together while we
were doing our little interview for that, so they had to throw
it on the back, but yeah. So, so no, wait, let's let's,
let's go to the so so games Gaming Culture magazine for
games. Where, where the where did this
take me back to the beginning? What was your first?
What was your first game and how did we get here?
My first game ever, you know what, I think like my first.
So obviously we're both like deep in the TTRPG, like war
gaming, that kind of stuff. But the magazines like more than
that, you know, the magazine is trying to bring together music,
like craft, like, you know, when it comes to like the kind of
independent war gaming side, like painting, kid bashing
minis, all that kind of stuff, but also bringing in like video
games and stuff like that too. So it's not like just about
role-playing games. But my hope is that the sort of
like disparate cultures that I am like really passionate and
into all come together to create this like coherent vibe and a
community where we all like can relate with all of those
different things. You know, So like I would say my
first game, if we're going back is like, is like Runescape, you
know, that was like my growing up type vibe, which I think is
like, I feel like it kind of hits this same vein that leads
to OSR, like RPGs and like Ink 28 war gaming and stuff.
Yeah. So like there's that.
You know, we did an article about like dungeon synth in the
first issue. This new issue has an article
about like jungle music from the 90s and how it like permeated
all of our favorite like video games from the 90s and like
where that came from and that kind of thing.
The second issue also has like an article on land parties and
like what happened to land parties.
How, you know, our current age of like Discord has basically
erased like the concept of land parties and what we've lost
because of that. So I think like all of these
types of things from what people have told me, like reading the
magazine, like relate to people that are in these like teacher
TTRPG spaces that you know, we're more probably deeply
involved in. But still like all of that is a
part of like a larger independent gaming culture that
I want to highlight in this magazine.
So that's kind of what led to like the topics and all that
kind of stuff. And then the like point of it
being like a lifestyle magazine is that there are a lot of
people putting out a lot of really cool games and a lot of
really cool like supplements for games and adventures for games
and stuff like that. And when I decided I wanted to
do this thing, I didn't want to just like add on to the pile of
already like dust collecting, like systems and supplements
that are on your bookshelf. You know, like we we have enough
of those already. Like the point of the magazine
was to be something different. And so, and, you know, growing
up like Thrasher was something that as a kid, like informed the
way I dressed and the things that I thought and like the kind
of taste I developed around music and what was cool and what
was interesting and what I wanted to do as a kid, you know,
So I wanted to provide like a similar outlet in our community,
which I think has like begun to be just as like punk and
counterculture as like skateboarding used to be.
And you know, so providing that kind of like platform for us to
kind of consume that style of content as well.
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think it's really successful.
The first one, they're both fantastic.
The second one does learn more into the video game side and
everything, which is much more Hunter's purview than mine.
I wasn't a huge video gamer when I was younger, but one of the
things that I like about it is, you know, we've lost 3rd spaces
really, you know, and from people that don't know what
third spaces are, it's like something that's not home or
work. It's it's a third place that you
could be. And that used to be places where
a lot of this stuff would happen, Land parties, skate
parks, the fucking mall. I remember digging change out of
my my pocket, my seats in the car so I could just go to a trip
at the mall and I don't know, glave to me, you know, and so
much of it now we've even lost a lot of forums.
You know, we we can say there's a lot of blogs out there.
There's a lot of they exist. They are there, but outside of
discords and I'm, I don't know if you're like me, I got like 45
and they're all muted. I don't feel like there's as
many spaces for this kind of thing to have these kind of
conversations about our hobby. Not the like you said, not it's
not supplemental. It's not you're not selling this
stuff. Like the interview with hives
Com isn't like to sell something.
It's to like talk with people. And I really like it.
This feels like almost like a like an in print third space to
me where we can like all bullshit about the same kind of
stuff that's going on with us, not the stuff we're doing.
And that, that's the thing that I really, really enjoy about it.
Yeah, no, a 1000% yeah, the third space thing is like really
sad because like it's funny in my in the first editor's note,
in the first issue, I hit on that Discord thing where it's
like, you know, we've supposedly created all of these digital
third spaces that are like all of these Discord servers that
you're a part of. But obviously it's not working
because all of mine are muted too, right.
And like it where, you know, it used to be maybe you would go to
this third space like in New York City and you'd be like a
part of like New York City. Now it's like there's like 4 New
York City Gaming club discords and none of them like it like
cross communicate. You know, there's like this club
Uptown, this club in Brooklyn, this club here, this club there.
And it's like what happened to being like a larger community,
you know? And so like in the first editors
know, I'm basically, I basically say like that exactly.
I'm like, Discord's cool. Like it's really amazing that we
can just DM anybody and get in contact.
Like us even doing this is via social media.
Like it's obviously useful, but I think what it's also pointing
towards, which is also like a loss of third space thing is
we're consuming a lot of like gaming contents, but I don't
think we're like playing a lot of games, you know, like we're
we're turning into this very like commodity driven industry.
And like you're saying, you know, I, the, there's like
nothing in the magazine other than like, if you like ads,
which are more like vibe setting than they are like selling
something, you know, I'll like allow somebody to put in like an
advertisement. But it's like just a really cool
art spread that like Dave Hoskins does for Exalted
Funeral. It's not like look at this new
release. I don't let anybody do like look
at this new release. If they put an ad in there,
'cause I'm like, this needs to be like, I don't want you to
pull the readers out of the magazine.
Like if I put you in the magazine, I'm endorsing you as
like a, a tastemaker in the industry.
And if you're in the magazine, you're endorsing the magazine as
like, you know, something worth buying, right?
So that's what I see like advertisements for.
But you're right, like the magazine I, it's $15, which even
in like commercial magazine space nowadays, like magazines
have kind of either gone like you only have the giants, which
you find out like every store, like Men's Health or whatever,
that's like whatever, or you have these like coffee table
magazines that are like 50 bucks.
They're thick. There's like art books at this
point. And it's like not, you know, not
the vibe that the magazine was going for.
I wanted something to be like incredibly accessible and just a
slice of, you know, what's happening and not something
that's trying to cram more stuff down your throat that you need
to like, buy and keep you from playing games, you know?
And Speaking of that too, it doesn't come.
I'm a PDF guy, I'm not gonna lie, I love physical media.
But when we're doing reviews for the show, I almost always use
PDFs because I like to zoom in on.
There's too many words across the spread my brain, you know?
But there's no PDF for this, which I, I, I assume and tell me
if I'm wrong, speaks to that whole concept of like, get off
your fucking computer, read the fucking magazine, you know?
Yeah. Oh 1000% it's like get off your
fucking computer, go play like magic with your friends and then
put this like on the table next to you and in between like as
the pods resetting or whatever you like, flip to the page and
like chill out and like point like with your friends.
But like, go look at this, this is cool or whatever, right?
Yeah, 1000%. I also like, you know, my folder
on my computer for PDFs is like drowning in stuff.
I've opened like maybe once if ever and will never open again.
You know, which I think people have like this similar problem
with like physical media, but I think the magazine like fills a
different spot. Like you can put the magazine on
your coffee table and like normies who come to your house
can be like, oh, what is this interesting?
Where if you put like swivers on your coffee table, like they
might, they have have no frame of reference for like what is
happening in that book, right? Where the the magazine is an is
an attempt to also kind of bridge that gap between like
people who have no idea what's going on.
They've maybe heard of like Critical role or whatever.
They've no idea what that means, but then they can pick this up
and be like, oh, like, this is what these people are talking
about. Because it's not like just
gaming supplements. It's like, look at this cool
festival that just happened in Connecticut by like, under the
Dice Fest, you know? So yeah, it's trying to fill
that niche as opposed to like more just like gaming content.
Yeah, and it does. It's really cool.
There's been a lot of, we talked about this kind of at PAX a
little bit. Oh, we got to talk about PAX
too. Yeah, yeah.
There's been a lot of really cool scenes in magazines and
stuff coming out, a lot of really great stuff.
But we feel like Glave is different for that reason.
It's not like a collection of, of even essays or, or anything
like that. It is it does feel like a
culture magazine, which is really, really cool.
So right before we got started, you were talking about what you
like your day job, quote UN quote, and like how how that
gets you kind of to the magazine as well.
Tell, tell us about that. Yeah.
So the thing that I say on like most podcasts, which is probably
going to get annoying if anybody's like listened to all
the like the three podcasts I've done or whatever, is that like
this is a magazine. It's not like a Zine, right?
And you know, Zine culture is like really sick and an integral
part of our DIY community. But again, it's like one of
those things where a lot of people are making really
fantastic dirt cheap, not in a bad way and like in accessible
way, you know, staple bound, like little digest sized zines
that are really, really cool. But like Glaive is not that, you
know, it's like a glossy perfect bound 100 plus page magazine.
Yeah, it's like a magazine that you remember when you hear the
word magazine. And so, you know, I wanted to
make that because, as I said, like with Thrasher and stuff
like that, like these were cheap essentially like temporary
almost things, right? Like when you would get like a
copy of that, actually like tear out the page with like the sick
kick flip and put it on your wall, right?
Like I don't think anybody's doing that with Glaive.
But the point is that that's like a thing you can do with
Glaive is like RIP out your like favorite art page and like, you
know, put it on your cork board and like look at it and stuff
'cause it's like cheap enough that you can do that.
But yeah, so I work in like the film and photo industry in New
York City. So I'm a production manager like
all of the behind the scenes stuff when you I worked in like
feature films and all that kind of stuff too.
So all the behind the scenes stuff like the kind of lifeblood
of making those things happen is what I like dealing.
And so New York City still is like the last kind of New York
City and other like the last bastions of like production for
like editorial magazines and stuff like that.
So I work like in the magazine industry from that direction,
like helping produce all of that stuff.
And so that like production side of my brain, I think it's kind
of made for magazines because what what glave is, is me
reaching out to all my favorite bloggers and game designers and
artists and people in these spaces and being like, Hey, I
want to pay you to write about your favorite XYZ, right?
I want you to write about like in this issue 3 that's coming
up, somebody was like, yo, I DM Ed on mushrooms.
Like, I'm like, yeah, to tell me about that, right?
Like I want you to write an article about DME on mushrooms.
I want to see your insane like DM notes from when you DM Ed on
mushrooms. And I'm going to pay you to put
that in this magazine. And so like, I can kind of be
like the shot caller being the, like, editor of this magazine
because I do write, like some of it.
I do all the graphic design, but I I mainly edit other people's
work because what I want the magazine to be is a platform for
me to get all of these different communities together and be
like, Hey, you writing about this?
Let me introduce you to this artist who's going to like draw,
you know, you know, the characters that were in your
whatever. Then you're like the time you
damned on mushrooms or whatever, right?
So it's like bringing these things together, giving it a
platform for everybody. And I just really the producer
side of me really enjoys that side of it of like being the
shot caller and and being able to platform all these cool
people. Are you?
Are you lifetime DM or are you more of a player?
I'm a definitely definitely lifetime DM.
Yeah, I was just gonna say you're basically like D Ming, a
magazine right now. Is what it?
Feels like, I mean, that's all. Producing it just.
Put all the pieces together and put all together.
So I'm I'm I'm surprised that you said that yeah you're you're
you're a lifetime DM. So you you said you did a lot of
stuff with the production side of it.
How did your day job also help get you to this?
Did you have like magazine connects?
Did I? Did you have to start from
scratch making it look this nice or like how?
How did the? No, but what's working in
production teaches you is that because what's what I love about
what I do like in my day job is that no project is like ever the
same. You know, my job is to put out
fires like whenever they come up.
And those fires are everything from like which, you know,
working in New York City in this industry is you can be as crazy
as, you know, people think it is like, you know, but like booking
fucking massage, you know, onset massage therapist for some like
bougie diva, right? Like that's part of my job just
as much as it is like finding somebody to repair like a broken
film camera, right? So like this industry has taught
me to be able to essentially improvise solutions to every
problem because my job is the the you know, the logistics
behind this stuff is everything from setting up tables for
catering for like 100 person crew as it is sourcing like a
vintage sports car to rent for the day.
You know, so essentially what I'm trying to say is I had no
idea how to produce a magazine from the like actually print run
production, putting it into circulation.
But I know how to like solve problems and I know how to find
those things. And we live in an age where like
everything is on the Internet and we'll tell you how to do
these things or we'll connect you with people on how to do
these things. You just have to like exercise
your free will and send the emails, right?
Like Glaive is mainly distributed through retail
stores. We have 20 retailers across like
5 different countries, right? And that's, that has started
from issue 1. Like issue 1 was already in
multiple countries. And that was really important to
me because in this third space idea, right, these retail
stores, especially game stores are some of the last third
spaces we have. And if you're not supporting
those spaces, they're just going to disappear, you know?
And it's tough because even incredible sites like Exalted
Funeral and stuff like that, which are like these online
spaces, which, you know, aren't third spaces just like online
retailers. But they're cool and they
support all this independent stuff, but they don't offer
what, like your local friendly game store, right, offers.
So, yeah, so like over half of my sales are two retailers.
Because I want people to go to their local store and walk in
and pick up the magazine and flip through the pages and be
like, yes, I want to buy this. It's only 15 bucks.
I want the kid to walk into the store with their mom and be like
mom, I want to buy this. And she's like, oh, that RPG is
like 45 bucks. But he picks up this like crazy
looking magazine with like an insane baby doll kid bash on the
front and be like, oh, mom, let me buy this.
And she's like, oh, it's 15 bucks, sure, let's buy it.
And then a kid hopefully is like, like transforms when they
read some insane thing by one of our awesome, you know,
contributors and gets like tapped into what this community
is actually about, which is like the crazy shit we're doing with
our friends, you know, like Chow clips, who was like a really
sick artist and like the teacher teacher PG space.
He did a comic from his sessions playing Wolves upon the Coast.
And it's just like, dope comic spread where they, like, blast
the brains out of, like, a fish and stuff.
And it's just like, I want, like, some kid.
My dream is some kid at like, 10 years old picks up this magazine
and is like, what is going on in here?
And then puts in, like, the legwork to look up this stuff
and be like, oh, wow, there's this, like, world that's doing
these things, you know? So.
Yeah. So I think that answered your
questions, but yeah. Listen, this is the weekly show
podcast. We just let the ADHD go, you
know what I mean? Yeah, I love it.
Let it RIP, let it RIP. But yeah, so so you were talking
about, you know, someone reaching out about an article
for deeming on mushrooms since episode 1, episode one, since
issue one especially. Yeah, yeah.
How? Did you source the articles in
issue one versus now that you're kind of on three?
Has it changed like reaching out versus being reached out to?
Yeah, So kind of in line with where I was going, I guess with
that last one is which I guess I didn't fully answer the
question, but it lines up with this.
So I didn't have a network at all established before issue
one, right. I've been in the kind of
community via putting out like other kind of small things used
to stream on Twitch. So there were like some kind of
producers in this community that I had slightly started
conversations with, but nobody like I, I didn't really have a
foot in the door. So essentially what I did was
just cold DM and cold e-mail fucking everybody, you know, So
like to line up all those retailers.
I think I emailed like close to 500 game stores all over the
world and just cold emailed them and I got like maybe 20 emails
back out of the like 500 or whatever that I sent or like
300, whatever it was, right? A very small percentage of the
cold emails I sent actually resulted in people stocking the
magazine. But I just kind of brute forced
my way into it because I just hit up fucking everybody and I
had, you know, the beginning spreads of the magazine and
we're like, hey, this is what I'm trying to do.
Do you would you like to stock this magazine?
And like, you know, only like 20 people got back, but that's like
the point, right? Is like, you have to put in that
work to to see, you know, the fruits come out of that.
And so in the same way with the first issue, I had a bunch of
like dream blog writers and other creatives in the space
that I was like, I fucking love how they write what they talk
about, you know, what they're tapped into.
I think they would write a really cool article about this,
right? So like, for example, if she
wanted to have had Micah Anderson doing a kind of system
agnostic setting called The Waste of the Car.
And he has designed some really sick modules in the past, right?
Like he's done some really cool stuff.
And so I just reached out. I was like, yo, do you want to
design something for the magazine?
And he said yes. So it's been a lot of that of
just like reaching out to people.
And I guess again, like exercising that free will of
like, you're basically not going to get a yes unless you're
willing to get a no, which means you have to talk to these people
and reach out. And so I just DM Ed as many
people as I could and was like, a lot of it was like, I have an
article idea. I want you to write.
You're like an expert in this thing.
So can you please write an article for the magazine and
I'll pay you, you know, to write an article, for example, like an
issue to the land party article, Mary Kay, who wrote it, I
basically was like, I literally was just Googling like land
parties. Has anybody talked about land
parties? And she put out a book called
Land Party that's this really amazing, like beautiful
hardcover book that is just full of full of like photos from old
land parties. And I was, and I figured out
where, you know, I could dam her on Instagram.
I was like, hey, do you want to write about land parties in the
magazine? And she was like down for it.
So it's a lot of that. And then now to like moving on
to issue 3. I do have people like reaching
out to me and being like, hey, this magazine's really cool.
I want to like, hey, if you have anything, you know, if you're
looking for contributors, let me know.
Or somebody comes in, they're like, yo, I have this article
that I've been sitting on. I think this is a good space for
it. For example, in issue 2, there's
like the Roblox article, which is like so funny to me that
there's a Roblox article in there.
It's a fucking funny. It's like, it's one of those
things where I kind of was like, is this too far?
But I think everybody who's read it, like gets why it's in the
magazine because it's like, you know, these kids are doing crazy
shit on Roblox. It's really funny.
And he was like, he was like, I'm sitting on this article
about Roblox. Like, do you think there's a
spot for it? And I was like, absolutely.
Like, write it. Let's go.
And yeah, so now to answer your question, it's like a mix.
I still reach out to people. I also have like a list of
people who have contributed before, so I can hit them up
again and be like, yo, let's write something else.
And I have people reaching out to me who want to contribute,
which is like, really cool. And then how, how frequently are
you trying to put these out? Do you have a schedule or do you
is it when it's fucking done it's done kind of thing?
I have a schedule because I need a schedule to function in my
life, but I haven't I've never hit the deadline.
So it's it's quarterly, quote UN quote.
So that that's looking at four issues a year.
I think this last issue was like a month off.
This next issue is probably going to be like a month off,
just like with I haven't really like locked in the kind of
between sending to printers and getting from printer and getting
to retailers and then announcing it's out like that kind of thing
is, I'm still like locking in. You know, it's it's still a
struggle for me, but I also like don't care so much about, you
know, like it's fine. I'm not like stressing about
hitting deadlines. It's just going to get better.
You know, it's just going to get better.
Yeah, I mean, issue 1 is fantastic.
You could definitely see a progression in issue 2 where
there was a little bit more just expansion of obviously the style
of content that you're putting in there because you don't know
Roblox and land parties. In issue 1, there's definitely a
little bit of a lean into video games, which I think is really
great. Again, it's not, it's not a
tabletop role-playing game magazine.
It's a hobby magazine, and a lot of the people in those spaces
happen to crossover into a lot of these hobbies.
Yeah, completely. Which, which, which again, is
really neat. Is there a focus on #3 the same
kind of way you're trying to spread it a little bit more.
You're trying to spread the wings all out in the beginning,
couple like a year and then kind of focus in on or what?
What's kind of? I think issue 2 was closer to
the mark of what I was hoping for Glave to be, which was like
a wider net capturing. Like it's my hope is it's a
gaming magazine, right? Not like a tabletop role play,
like not ATTRPG magazine or it's like tabletop magazine.
It's, it's a gaming magazine. And I guess for both sides,
there are people who pick it up and are interested in reading
about like the gaming stuff. My hope is that they then are
introduced to the tabletop stuff.
My hope is that the people who open up and read about the
tabletop stuff can tap into like what's happening in the gaming
stuff. Most people who pick up the
magazine are tapped into both, you know, or are interested in
both already. But my hope is that it's like a
larger gaming magazine. So issue 2 is like more the kind
of scatter shot of what I'm hoping for it to be.
I think just naturally it's going to ebb and flow between
the two, you know, different some maybe the next issue might
be more back to tabletop, maybe another issue.
I get, you know, some more people involved who are, you
know, more in like the video game side.
But you know, the, the, the tough job for me is honing the
articles in a way where they don't alienate the other side,
you know, where they are kind of hitting on both things.
That's the tough part as the editor, I guess, is making sure
that I don't, you know, we've too far in One Direction, which
I guess the, the trick to doing that is just, which is how the
magazine started is just trusting my own taste and like
what I like, you know, because that's really, I think the trick
for all of this stuff is you just make something that you
want to read and you know, spoiler, you're not as unique as
you think you are. And there's a bunch of other
people who want to read the same thing, you know?
Yeah. I think that's we could say that
about a lot of stuff, you know, where we don't need to go deeply
into. Yeah.
Just. Like commodification of like in
in of every single aspect and moment of our life.
So hobbies become money making schemes because thank you
capitalism. But I think there really is a
distinct change when you go from making what you want to make and
selling it to making something to sell and staying on the more
genuine side of that line where you're like, I'm doing this and
it's cool and it's cool if it sells.
Is always going to feel like a a better project because you're
you're doing what you want to do and what speaks to you, not what
you hope speaks to people. And that's when you start
getting that scatter shot. So yeah, I mean, like you still
feels like that. We'll, we'll, we'll check in
once a year and be like, so how was the last year at Glave?
Yeah. Yeah.
So Pat, we were at PAX you was that How many times was that
your first packs have you? Been that was my SO.
So that was my second packs although my first packs I didn't
get badges in time and I was like oh they sell them at the
door. So me, my wife and our roommate
went to PAX. We walk into the where they sell
the badges and they're like, Oh no, we're sold out, but there's
no badges for today. And I was like the one day we're
going to go cuz Philly's like an hour and a half to two hour
drive from New York. So we just like drive up for the
day, do our thing. They didn't have any badges and
I like needed to get in because I was meeting.
This was like, the reason I was going is this is right before
issue 1 was coming out and I was doing that thing where I was
starting to network and the magazine wasn't out yet.
But I was like, hey, I'm going to make this really cool thing.
I swear. It's going to be really cool.
I didn't have like, a magazine, you know?
So it's like this kind of weird thing.
And I was meeting the, like, Exalted funeral team for the
first time, so I needed to get into packs, but I didn't have a
badge. So we sat out.
So we sat outside of the venue and just waited for people to
leave. And we're just like, hey, are
you done for the day? Can I buy your badge?
And essentially like a group of like 3 or 4 kids with their dad
like rolled out and, and I basically went up to these kids
and I was like, Hey, I'm promise I'm not a, a fucking weirdo.
Can I buy the badges off of you? And they all like look up at
their dad and he's like, you know, it's like the, I
understood how sketchy the situation was, but they were
like, I was like, I promise I'll Venmo you right now, like full
price. This was when there was like 2
hours left for the day, right? It was like a fucking waste of
money for me, right? But there was like 2 hours left.
I was like, I'll pay you full price for these badges.
So you'll get like the badges for free.
Essentially. The dad like sketchily accepted
my Venmo and then they just like handed us the badges.
Then we, like, sprinted in and I, like, found the exalted
funeral booth like in that Tiger Wizard and those guys for the
first time went to, like, the open gaming space and tried to
pretend like this was worth our money and then left like two or
three hours after. So that was my first PAX
experience. The second this, the one that
just happened, was far more civilized.
We, like, got our badges ahead of time.
I learned from my mistake. And yeah, so this was my second
year at PAX. There you go.
And so my assumption is obviously you, you probably
bouncing around in there meeting a lot of people Were you, is
that kind of the, I guess primary reason you went?
Like were you trying to still network a lot more or just
trying to meet people you've met through the magazine?
Like what was your package packs experience like?
Like why you went and how it felt for you.
Yeah, those things for me are just like meeting up with
people. Got to meet, got to meet a lot
of new people, got to meet up with people I've now met and
want to develop like relationships with because
they're cool people. So like, you know, when you go
to these things, if they're around, you want to give a hug
and say hey and just be like hope you're chilling and living
life. You know, this time was like a
lot more of the full packs experience.
I don't know how deep you want to go in it, but like I hadn't
realized like there's like some like industry after party stuff
that happens at PAX that gets like really crazy.
That was like fun to experience and like overwhelming.
There's like for for those who don't know, like the main hotel
where everybody stays is like connected to the venue space by
like a tunnel. So everybody basically funnels
out of packs to this hotel and like all of the who's who and
like the industry are there just like drinking at like the hotel
bar. And it's like absolutely insane.
Just like a total nightmare. But it was like weird, like you
walk in and you grab a drink next to like Jenny D and like
all of these like fucking, you know, like big like tabletop
people and you're like what? Where the fuck am I?
Like what is going on right now? Which was fun.
So I did that little thing and then just hung out with friends.
Yeah, I just got to connect with friends and chill.
But yeah, my reason for going to PAX is just like meeting up with
people, you know, I think like a booth could be cool in the
future, but you know, I'm not. We're not there yet.
It's not a thing. I mean put your name on now cuz
you got like 3 years before they look at you so.
Yeah, totally. Yeah, it just gets bigger and
bigger. But yeah, I mean, that's the
reason I go. This is my second year going.
I worked with, I worked with four Adam from World Champ Games
last year cuz he wasn't there, but he actually got to beat out
this year. It was cool.
Got to hang out the entire time, but it all comes out to it.
It's fun to work and and to it's fun to work.
It's not it is fun to be there and I love Adam's stuff.
So it's very easy to talk about their games, but it's definitely
the meeting people, you know, like we definitely touched base
through God. I don't even know where I found
you. For a little tip for everyone,
make yourself easy to find on the Internet, because I think my
first encounter with you at all as a human being is your your
stuff in the violence collection too.
I got it ready to go. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and you did not make yourself easy to find through
that. I think I found your.
Private personal Instagram before I found Hot Head
Collective, before you know, I found Glaive, you know, reached
out and here we are. Yeah, Which, you know, is kind
of funny. Like I talked about this with
the high school guys a little bit.
I don't think we talked about it in the interview that we did,
but there's kind of, I don't know, maybe this is just me
being a like stupid. But there's kind of for me like
a little bit of charm of like having to like look up stuff
about somebody to like figure out who they are.
Like, like having to kind of do a little bit of a hunt, like
weeds out the people who like, don't really care.
You know, maybe there's just an excuse for me just to say that
like for why it's hard to find my shit.
But I, I don't know, some of like some of the, when I'm on
the Internet, I love like having like 7 tabs where you like
rabbit hole until you find like the original thing.
And then you're like, oh, you feel really like rewarded when
you find that like OG blog post, you know, like, and you had to
like way back machine to find like the OG blog post that like
everybody's talking about. I don't know, that shit's kind
of fun to me, but. Way back the rules alive.
Is that what we're talking about?
Yo I just I literally was talking about rules alive.
That's so funny. Yeah, no, I.
Got it. You could read it on my face.
It's so funny. Oh my God.
I didn't do the same thing and then download the PDF or or
export it into Google Docs so I could save it.
No, no, no, no, no, absolutely not.
We would never do that. You got to, you got to, you got
to be able to argue why it's. Yeah.
The the way it is, but well, just so you know, I that is the
quest I had to go on. So so it succeeded.
I I caught it before it got taken down, luckily.
But yeah, I can't believe you. You literally.
Oh, sorry. Yeah, yeah.
I'm just still, it's so funny that you were talking about
rules of life because I literally was talking about
rules of life. Yeah, Nope, I got you.
But no, my quest was to find you.
That's exactly what happened. I did have to hit like 5
different channels. Find the Hot Head Collective
website which is also great by the way is a nice collection of
stuff on there. Well, yeah, so I guess we can
actually talk about then like Hot Head Collective.
Like isn't it didn't start as glaive, right.
So originally, which I've totally dropped the ball on,
which I hope is fine 'cause I'm doing the magazine now.
But at first it was a news. It was like an outlet for a
newsletter that I was putting out, which was one of many
newsletters now in the space where I was just highlighting
like all my favorite blog posts and stuff.
Like I would basically highlight like my favorite, like a YouTube
video I'd found. That's really cool that people
should check out. Favorite blog post that I think
like people should check out. And then like usually like it
might be like a podcast episode or like a book or something.
But every week I put out like my, like, top three, like
resources that people should check out that I felt like I
personally were like curating that I thought were cool because
I got into like, TTRPGS and all this kind of stuff.
Like fairly recently in the grand scheme of things like
COVID, basically, I'd been into like, D&D and stuff before
COVID, but Covid's when, like, the OSR wrapped its tentacles
like around my neck and like, pulled me into the deep end.
And I basically spent like all of my, yeah, all of my free
time, you know, during the pandemic, just ingesting as much
I as I could about this like specific side to the hobby.
And so I wanted an outlet to kind of be excited about all
that kind of stuff. So I just started like curating
my favorites from that. So if you go to like the
website, you'll find a long like post history of all of those
newsletters that are just that has become like a library of all
of my favorite like shit from the Internet.
Yeah, like I said after I found your private Instagram, that's
what I found and I was definitely digging through that
for a while and and it also looks great.
The the your design stuff is good.
It is good stuff. I appreciate it.
But just drop that there. We'll make sure it's the
Internet. The links will be where you
expect them at the end of the episode for those watching, but.
I guess at what point, you know, we kind of we hit it till go
back to the beginning. At what point did hot head
collective shift into Glebe? At what point were you like, I
like this stuff, but now I want it in the physical media.
So the first thing, so I was streaming on Twitch, I was in
kind of the D&D space on Twitch. That kind of community over
there is a lot of like world building, a lot of like DND 5 E
home brewing. That kind of stuff is like
pretty popular there, you know, actual plays, obviously, but
like the the part of it that's not actual plays is like a lot
of people like home brewing and designing stuff and that kind of
thing. And so I was doing that and
getting connected with people doing that.
And then the first like release from Hot Head Collective was
this thing called grand rituals, which is this little thing which
is very hard to it like doesn't exist anywhere anymore.
Exalted Funeral put it out, but it's like a system agnostic rule
set for like large scale rituals.
So it like it's, it gives you kind of like a format and like a
little like template for designing these like large scale
rituals that turn into like adventures where basically all
the different pieces of the ritual are kind of like Mac
guffins that you have to find. And there's like different stuff
like that. So we put out this like grand
rituals thing. I say we it was me and this
other content creator guy, IDBN, who's like a really great, great
game designer guy in that space. So what we did that thing that
was like the first Hot Head Collective release, but quickly,
you know, I, I stopped streaming on Twitch because when I, when I
get into this kind of stuff, I can't really like kind of half
do stuff. Yeah, I have to like 1000% do
it, which is both a blessing and a curse where it's like if I'm
doing something, I it needs to be the thing that I'm like
putting out into the world and trying to turn into like
something. And to do that on Twitch
nowadays, like even just like, yeah, but even like the D&D
side, like not even talking about that side of it, which we
could, we probably shouldn't talk about.
But it's, it's like over like to be able to do that and have like
a normal life or like, it's just not accessible anymore, you
know, it's like not a thing. So I didn't want to spend all my
days, like I didn't want to stream for 10 hours and then
spend another 10 hours cutting clips and chasing algorithms.
And like, for me, I couldn't just stream like I needed to do
the whole thing, you know? And so I quickly realized like,
that's not the kind of creative outlet I wanted to do.
We already talked about why I don't want to do like more
supplements and systems and stuff.
Like the grand rituals thing was really fun.
And when it comes all this stuff, I always want to do
something different. And so for that, it was like
definitely want to be like a system agnostic thing, like, you
know, that's now very common, but something different.
And so we did that. It was fun.
And then I was like, OK, I want to do something different, Let's
do something different. And that's where, like Glaive
started kicking around in my head kind of from.
I think also that curation that I enjoy with like the the
newsletter, Glaive became like a new outlet for that.
But also just didn't want to curate the same thing everybody
else is like talking about. I wanted to do something
different. And so, you know, all of that
ends up being Glaive. Yeah.
Yeah, and you're, you're fucking doing it, man.
Yeah, you know. It's happening.
Yeah, it's happening. It's, it's hard to, it's hard to
do stuff, you know, especially in this space.
You know, I know people, people make things, people put stuff
out, people produce stuff. But I can tell you there's
probably about a million times more that's just sitting in
Google Docs and and hanging out. I mean, I've been in this space
for a long time and I just put out like the ash can of my very
first thing, which, which, which is neat.
So actually. I have it somewhere.
Oh man. Oh yeah.
Oh, I haven't even announced that on like this.
Announced it as if it's fucking anything.
Oh, should I not show it? Oh, you can.
Yeah. The first time it's going to be
on stream. I made a fucking game.
There it is. Death cut in stone it is.
This is what's funny too, is this is a little connection
between us as well. It is a skirmish game.
It's a super quick, brutal skirmish game based on Luke
Gearing's violence. And again, that was kind of like
our first connection is your art trash, right?
And and violence too. So neat little little.
Crossover. Up there.
So I'll put that where you can expect to find it on the
Internet. That'll come out the rest of the
way by the end of the year. But we're not talking about
that. We're talking about Glaive in
the future of HUD had Collective as well.
I know I've been. We've been chatting a little bit
on the Internet and being like, when are you gonna do this?
When are you gonna do that? Like when's the next merch drop?
Because it's the Glaive T-shirt. Oh, it's in the other room, Is
it? Is it sold out now what?
What's the plan with? All that no, we're not sold out
yet. I think so yeah.
So so hot Head collective right now is glaive.
I what I want to do with hot Head Collective is continue to
be like a lifestyle focused thing, which is what I want to
try to do is put out stuff that kind of merges that gap between
our like everyday lives and the hobbies that we love.
And so I don't so so you mentioned the shirt we put out
our first like not magazine thing, which is like a logo T.
So it's like got the glaive logo, whatever.
It's like a really simple thing, but it was like a first attempt
at like putting out shirts and stuff, which was cool.
But I do want to start putting out like, you know, more shirts
in the future, get artists to do cool stuff.
I think a lot of like gaming adjacent like fashion stuff is
just like, to be frank, like kind of shitty.
It's like not good. And you know, I think a lot of
actually in like the ink 28 like war gaming like side is actually
really sick and you know, giving like more options for people,
giving like artists some more of a chance to make like cool
stuff. This brand that I'm really into
that I think is doing this across a few different like
cultures and communities is brain dead.
I don't know if you know the brand Brain Dead.
So it's like a, they're not like it's funny because they're
dipping into like gaming stuff, but they are like there's like a
street wear brand, but they, for example, they collaborate with
like Magic the gathering put out probably the coolest Magic the
Gathering merch you'll ever buy is from this brand called Brain
Dead. They also had a secret layer
with Magic the Gathering. So they've like firmly started
planting themselves in the the gaming space and what they try
to be. And it's something I, I'm a I'm
a big fanboy of branded, so I'm going to yeah.
So, so let me talk about them. They they want to make merch for
our hobbies. That's like their kind of design
goal is they want to make like the band tease for our hobbies
and stuff. So they're they don't just make
like gaming stuff. They make stuff for tennis is
like another hobby they're really into.
It's basically the guy who runs it, Kyle.
He basically is just making merch for all the stuff he likes
to do. So they make like rock climbing
merch like, and it's not just rock climbing shirts and stuff.
It's like they have rock climbing shoes like at the chalk
bags, like all that kind of stuff.
They host like rock climbing events.
They're really tapped into like events as well.
They do a bunch of commander tournament tournaments.
The other thing is they, they, he's really into tennis.
So they put out like tennis rackets and tennis stuff.
He's and then he's also into Magic the Gathering.
So they put out, they run a bunch of like commander
tournaments. They own a movie theater.
So they have like commander pods at their movie theater and they
they are tapped in enough to have Magic the gathering like
official merch. They did AD and D1 too, which is
actually kind of sick, but I don't think it was sold very
well. So they just like stopped doing
the D&D stuff. But they and then they've also,
which was so funny because it was like right when issue 1 was
about to come out, they put out there like Brainzine, which is
their glaive basically. But they did like one of them
and it was like whatever, I think Glaive was way better, but
I don't know if they're going to keep doing it.
But they did like they're kind of like gaming Zine, which is
cool. But anyway, so so brain dead.
That idea of like creating merch around a hobby lifestyle is
where I want hot head to go when it comes to like gaming and
stuff. And so so obviously like shirts
and soft goods and like that kind of stuff.
I think it's cool. I want to get like really weird
with it. So like something I'm like
thinking about making or like, you know, those like milk glass,
like coffee mug. They're like the kind of like
they're usually like that kind of like green, like specific.
They're like a specific type of glove.
Anyway, I want to make like these mugs that say paint water
on them, you know, like I want to make stuff that we would use
outside of the hobby as well as in the hobby.
I think like finding that crossover is really interesting.
So like, another thing I'm working on with some people is
like an incense burner, but it's 28mm scale, so you can use it at
the table, you know? So like this weird stuff that
your mom could, like, use, but also like you could use and
finding like, where those crossovers meets and creating
stuff that allows us to immerse ourselves more in our hobby
without, like, having to buy, like, an ampersand shirt or
something. You know, like stuff that's
like, kind of like gaming coded but isn't like a dice bag, you
know, which is like, we have enough dice bags.
Like, I don't need more dice bags.
Yeah, I. Mean that's great, especially
because we're all fucking old, you know what I mean?
Like and getting older and and being able to have something
that can be a little bit normie and not have like your entire
personality plastered on like your walls and plates and
everything. But but it is is is a cool thing
to have. I mean, you know, anime shirts
and stuff. I think the best brands that do
that are do are ones that do like cool designs that aren't
just here's a shot from the fucking anime and you're you're
that that you're just talking about.
You just cost me so much money. There is so much stuff on there.
That I'm buying now. I find it so funny.
Nobody knows about Brain dead, but they're like probably the
coolest, like gaming hobby brand, I think on the Internet.
Like you have like, yeah, I, I don't want to throw names out,
but there's this stuff where they like are trying to be that,
but they're like, taste is just off.
It's just not it, you know? I think like some of the coolest
stuff that's happening are like bootleg Tees.
Like I have like a Mordheim bootleg shirt on right now.
Like the people who are doing like bootleg stuff is really
sick and on to your like anime and stuff.
There's like some cool brands who are just like dudes screen
printing in their garage, like bootleg like Evangelion and
stuff like Tees that are they design and look like really
sick. And you wouldn't necessarily
know that it's like about that thing, but they make like a sick
like different version of a bootleg of it.
That stuff is like so sick and I want to bring that energy like
into this stuff. That is, I mean, I got I got a
bolt thrower shirt that fucking slaps.
So some bootleg thing, billion dollar clown farms stuff that
they were doing with like the fucking white monster.
I got that's exactly. The best shit you know.
The best dude. And, and yeah, I mean do fucking
do it because I'll buy. All of it and.
And and come on and talk about it.
But that's that's awesome, you know, and that's what the space
it needs. We it just to to rant about
capitalism for 30 seconds fucking sucks and it fucks us
all. We lost so much like even just
the physical, even when you get a fucking video game, you used
to be able to crack it open and pull the little booklet out and
actually learn some shit in there.
We we don't have that. We don't own the things that we
own anymore. So being able to have a dope
physical magazine, being able to have like a sweet shirt, you
know, made by, you know, people who stuff that you, you enjoy.
It's important. And it's important to be able
to, I mean, getting into a whole like anthropological thing about
it. But to be able to code yourself
the way that you want to be perceived and not just, you
know, first stream or on the Internet is really important.
So I, I, I love what you're doing because that is such a, a
great way to be able to do the things that we used to do.
Cuz I'm pretty sure I'm, I'm, I'm older than you by, by a
couple of years at least. Yeah.
And I miss all of that nostalgic stuff from the 90s when we had
the exact same stuff you're talking about as just part and
parcel like it was. That was just, that was the
culture, that was society, that was everything.
I mean, talking about like how I mentioned like Runescape when I
was growing up, one of the things I carried like everywhere
was this like book that was like the unofficial guide to
Runescape. And it like was like told you
how to do all this stuff in the game.
Like another example is like in like game informers and stuff.
They were like cheat codes and you could buy the books that
were just full of cheat codes for like your favorite games.
And it's like guides to games and stuff like that.
Like now you just go to like Fextra Life or whatever and just
look up the guide to how to do like all of the shit.
And then you never actually play the game.
You just follow the, like, optimal choices until you, like,
finish in the right ending you were hoping for.
And yeah, I think like, that would be really funny.
Yeah. Yeah.
But it'd be fun to even bring back like like that side of it
of like a book about like, I don't know, Valorance kind of
not the vibe, but like maybe there's like a cool thing where
you make like an unofficial guide to like like caves of Cud
or something. Or like, you know, these cool
game like Dwarf words. He's like different games that
are like more independent and interesting and put out like
books about these things where you can kind of consume that
content from like a different angle and talk about like the
book with a friend or whatever instead of just like finding all
the stuff online. And like never actually, I feel
like we never we don't actually engage with games and stuff
anymore like the way that we used to.
I think like, I mean, I mean, now that I've mentioned like the
fact that we just like look up guides for everything, I'm
getting like frustrated because I feel like with like MMORPGS or
basically any game now, you look up builds, right?
Like Elden Ring, you look up a build that tells you what to do
and then you do the build in the game and then you beat all the
bosses with the build and then that's like the game, right?
Where like what happened to just like not looking up anything,
playing the game, picking up the cool sore that you think is cool
and you put your skill points and like the shitty skills you
don't know any better and then you like make it through Just
like playing with the systems in the game instead of just like
pre emptively like beating the game via the Internet.
I don't know. It's just like it's so different
and I don't know how we go back to that.
It's like the cat's out of the bag, but I don't know.
Yeah, it's, I mean, that's so deep across so much of society
right now and just the way we've been fucked for the last, you
know, 35 years. But it, a lot of it just comes
down to wanting to make sure that the exorbitant amount of
money that you paid for is worth it.
So you want to beat the game. I think that saying that you
beat something has become much more popular than the journey of
beating it yourself in the same way that taking pictures and
posting on the Internet. I watched this whole thing the
other day about where we get our brain chemicals from and it used
to be from experiencing a thing and now those same chemicals
aren't released it when they experience it.
It's released when you share it. So our entire way that we
perceive and and translate the world has completely changed.
So being able to sit down and enjoy the journey.
Attention demands are too short. I think people's emotional death
is shallow as a fucking puddle. I think people are afraid to
feel and everything is cringe and and actually getting like
deep within your own emotions is not a thing that people do
anymore. Everything is surface level.
So why not just do the surface level of the game?
Why are you trying to scratch anything more than just like the
tiny itch and say that, OK, I beat Eldon Ring, but like you
said, like did you when I played Skyrim, I'll tell you what, I
put like fucking thousand hours into that game and I, I walked
across every inch of that ground multiple times.
You know, I wasn't trying to find the easiest, quickest way.
But I think if that game came out now, exactly what happened
is what you're talking about. People would find like the main
5 quest lines, pick the one that they want to do, look up the
guide for or go exactly where they're supposed to and then
say, boom, I beat Skyrim in 20 hours.
Like, I don't know. Yeah, yeah.
So merit, Yeah, merit. Kay and her land parties article
kind of blew my mind with a point she makes about how like
back in the day when you'd play like Call of Duty or Halo with
your friends wherever to come over and it'll get around the
console and play like four way split screen of like whatever,
right? And you'd play and your only
frame of reference for how good you were was like amongst your
friends on the console. And like there wasn't like a
meta progression of your like ranking on a leaderboard, right?
It was literally just you and your friends.
And you just play with your friends right?
Now, if you play like any battle Royale or whatever, you can see
like a level going up every time you play.
And you're incentivized to be incredibly good at the game,
right? You're incentivized to like play
aim trainers and all of this kind of stuff.
And you grind, right? Like you are incentivized to go
on this game not to have fun. Maybe it's fun to you, but like
you're incentive, like the fun is a side effect, right?
You're incentivized to get better, so your number goes up,
right? And I think that same thing
happens with what you're talking about where we're no longer
incentivized to have fun at our hobbies.
We're incentivized to be good at our hobbies.
And it's like that just oh, dude, it's crazy.
Like the fact that people feel like they need to be good DMS in
comparison to what they're reading on blogs and stuff,
right? The fact that people feel like
they're miniatures that they're painting have to look like the
miniatures that they're seeing trending on Instagram.
It's insane. Like, you don't have to be good
at your hobbies. Like, that's not what a hobby
is. You don't have to be good at it.
And like, that's even been a thing for me, rewiring my brain
where I'm like, starting to get more into painting minis and
stuff and being into that. And it's like, Oh yeah, I don't
have to share this on the seven Discord servers.
And they're like mini channel to have people be like wow, click,
click like heart, heart, heart, heart, heart.
Or I don't have to feel bad when the miniatures I'm painting like
kind of suck and don't look like what the dudes doing because.
I am spending all my time looking up YouTube videos on how
to do the right wash to get the right effect to get it to look
like grim dark and like this and look a certain way when what I
should be doing is just painting my fucking minis in a way that I
like and think it's fun. Like I like dipping them in the
paint and wiping it all off and like, like I could just be
having fun. But no, like we all we need to
look a certain way to the people we look up to and oh dude, it's
just cross it all. It's crazy.
Anyway, sorry. No, our validation is external,
not internal. And it used to be completely
flipped I think. I mean I got a bunch of notes
that I say but online play ruin video games.
I don't give a. Fuck, that's what she says in.
Reasonable yeah that you're that you're talking about, you know,
and like Twitch is the same thing.
We're watching pro, so kids want to be pro.
So yeah, they grind at a fucking game like Apex, which sucks and
and just try to do that forever and again, stop having fun.
You know, I stopped playing when I stopped having fun.
Why do you think AI is so big right now?
Aside from the fact that a lot of people just suck.
But what you hear a lot is people thinking that you have to
like, I'm not fucking Picasso the first time we put pen to
paper. So I might as well just feed it
into a machine that can do the thing that I want instead of
understanding that doing the work is the fun.
Doing the work is the point. Writing the thing and how it
makes you feel, drawing the thing and how it makes you feel
is the fucking point. It is that it is the journey.
It is we make along the way. It's not it's not just a fucking
meme. And you know, with the paint
thing, I felt the exact way when I started.
I was an art major in college. So when I started painting, I, I
was going hard fucking OSL and fucking, you know, the, the non
metallic metals and the light and everything.
When I, when I started dipping into the grim dark is when I was
like, oh, I can, I can free myself a little bit.
I can just stop a base color and, and some fucking villainy
ink on this thing. And, and it looks scrawny and
gross. So they're super freeing to be
able to do that. But like I said, a lot of it
comes down to just our, our, our dopamine hits, our validation is
now external versus internal. And, and it sucks.
It's not good for you. Like it's not like they study
after study after study. He says.
Like that's just not fucking good for you.
And, and the, the mass. And we'll have a private
conversation on how I feel about some other stuff.
But but yeah, like feeling that every moment of your day has to
be monetized, which is part of that, but also part of the
economy that we exist in right now where it's just like if I'm
not making money, that's not that's food off my table right
now is is really, really disheartening.
So yeah, everything sucks except like which which goes hard you.
Know which like, I don't know, is there like an irony to
talking about this while I make a product that is sold for
money? Like I like to think that
they're different. And I think like we're still
exploring, even talking right now about like the kind of like
products I want to make about like bringing our hobby into our
everyday life. Like I'd like to think those are
different forms of consumption and it's a healthier version.
But I think only through exploring what we figure out if
that's like true, I don't know. It's one of those things that I
think is still something to think about and look at, you
know? One thing is to continue to
think about and look at it. We talked about it a little bit
earlier where is if you're making a thing because you enjoy
making a thing and then you sell it to people that will enjoy
consuming that thing is a very different thing than making a
thing with this express intent to sell.
Because that whole thing we just talked about that internal
validation, that desire to connect with what you're making
and how other people connect to it is the difference.
As long as you're still making the thing that you want to make,
the way you want to make it, and you happen to be selling it
again, so different than making a thing to sell.
You can see that even game designers and stuff and stuff
they put out, you can see early projects versus late projects.
And as soon as you know, as soon as you see DCC starting to sell
5 E stuff, you're like, well, get back a couple less
kickstarters now. Like there's, there's, there's a
time when that, when that switch flips and it becomes about the,
you know, the, the capitalism and the marketing and the money
and it becomes less about the hobby.
That's that's when you know, it's really going to suck.
But like you said, as long as you continue to question it, I
think Lei will be in a good spot, you know?
Yeah, and I think like you're saying it's like it's, it's
interesting because it's like obvious, like you can tell when
something's like one versus the other, even if like like in your
gut, right? Even if you're not like
necessarily sure what's going on, you can like tell when it's
like genuine, authentic, real. And it's, and it's a Kickstarter
that knows they're going to get their, you know, XYZ in a
certain amount of time, right? It's like it's obvious.
Yeah. It's, it's so interesting.
It's so interesting to think about too, because it's just
like, you know, especially heartbreaking because it's like
just absolutely devastated. Like the OSR and Indy space.
I feel like in TTRP GS where the whole point of all of that was
like a counter to this kind of thing.
And we've just kind of been swallowed up to this point where
now it's just like we're, you know, you look in the mirror and
you're the villain. I guess it's it's kind of crazy
to just see it happen, but. You know, yeah, I, you know,
it's hard not to have opinions on the show, but it's my fucking
show, so I'll say what I want. I don't personally think that
the indie space in the current what what's called the indie
community right now, this, this group of people and bloggers and
things that is the indie space at all anymore, I refuse to
call. It I call.
It the small market space now yeah because everyone that hops
into it like here this is my first thing that I made it's a
$10,000 Kickstarter. You know this is the thousandth
adventure for Merkborg. This is a 10 thousandth
adventure for Mothership. The innovation in the indie
aspect of it went away and you know where it is it's in the ink
28 scene. It's the stuff that Tanner
Simpson is doing. It's the stuff that that fucking
White Tiger Tablecraft is doing. Like that's where the real DIY
indie. I made it cuz it's cool.
If you buy it, that's fine. Kind of space you know exists
now and, and you can't, I mean, at the same time, you can't
blame in the previous space, it was a slow, slow capitulation to
capitalism, but people got to pay the fucking bills.
I understand it just it sucks, you know?
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's why Hive Skim was the first feature
in Clave, because I they are one of the like the leading voices
in that where like, yeah, it's really interesting too, because
I feel like even people need 28, like don't know what OSR is.
And it's just so interesting coming at it like being rooted
in like the other side and seeing what they're doing there
and being like, oh fuck yeah. This is like where this is how
this started. And now it's like brewing up
here and it's really, yeah. It's like really exciting to see
that same energy that brought us into this space that we love so
much existing and like a really like a really close other hobby.
Like, I think it's crazy that like, they're so separate, you
know, because glad they're not, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. You know what I mean?
It's like, yeah. But no, dude, I have this, we'll
have a deeper conversation about this, but I've had this
conversation multiple times where like I'm like Ink 28 is
OSR if you get rid of the forge, you know what I mean?
Like it's, it's what the space could have been and it's I hope
they stay separate. I hope they they never cross.
I'm glad that they don't have the same kind of baggage that
the teach RBG space has, because it's the same bullshit
conversations and, and dead horse kicking that we're doing
all the fucking time over here in this space.
And the, that space over there can have their own things.
So I'm really hoping that there's not a big crossover.
A lot of creators in the teach RBG space have been crossing
over skirmish. I think that's great.
But I I really generally hope that those spaces don't like
actually meld, because I think it would be.
I mean, I think, but we get to. Experience both, you know.
Yeah, I mean, I wonder if Ink 28's going to be, I don't know
if this is true, but it's kind of funny.
I feel like with war gaming, like you can't just buy the shit
and not, well, I guess people do, but you're kind of a poser
if you don't like fucking paint the minis and like do and engage
with it. Like there's still that feeling
there where it's kind of like you're kind of cringe if you
just buy the shit and like don't do anything.
Like and especially because like kid bashing and stuff is such a
big thing there. It's like, oh, you bought the
thing and like painted it the way it was on the box and like
did the way it told you to do. No, fuck that.
Like you need to cut its head off and put a dragon fucking
head on it and like paint it with like like artist oil paints
and then like rub it all in like fucking Rustoleum or whatever.
And then like make this board, you know, there's just a lot
more like expectation to engage with the hobby, you know well.
There's a DIY aspect to it that I think that the, the small
market space when, when it used to be the indie space had more
because people would just print it in their rooms or do the
layout themselves or do whatever.
And again, it's become everything is, is so polished
that you know, you can just like read to an artist, pay them
money, you can just print it all, mix them for XML.
Like there's a, you know, obviously you're writing, you're
you're doing stuff, but the actual like DIY with your hands
kind of aspect of the hobby has slipped.
And I think in the war game space, I think 28 space, all the
stuff, it's part and parcel. Like you can't really separate
the two. Like buying them in these,
having to put, even if you just do, I don't care if you do heavy
metal, heavy metal and like 2 box art shit, you still have to
get it off the screw, glue the shit together and fucking paint
it. So there's a there is more of AI
don't want to say investment, but like an engagement with,
with the space that I that I'm hoping, but it seems to have
kept it in the way that it is for a long time.
So but I think it is a little bit of that like over polishing
in in the TRPG space that has has moved it a little bit away
from the the DIY aspects, but. Yeah, and kind of what you
mentioned too, which is interesting, is like it's almost
like a second. The 828 stuff is almost doing
like a second discovery of role-playing games where like
back when you know, like DND 1st was created, right, you had like
war gaming and you had like, you know, the bronze scenes and
David Wesley doing all that kind of stuff.
And then Blackmore and you let into like what DND was.
It's almost funny where I feel like the Ink 28 people are like
wanting to be more narrative and wanting to like have smaller war
bands and like have just like 1 mini who I'm like role-playing
and but you know, but like the rules are just like skirmish
rules, right? So there's not like charisma and
shit like that. I'm just role-playing my little
like Inquisitor. And now we're like, you know,
we've got these cool scenario like campaign play rules for
having a long form campaign. And it's like, oh, they're just
literally like rediscovering role-playing games, you know,
like it's just, it's such a funny parallel.
And it's just so sick though, because it's coming from this
like flavor of in 28 grim dark. But like you mentioned Tanner
Simpson with like his wanted CC 40,000 or whatever.
Yeah, dude, like that. That is like you're kind of
having that like first hit of like, wait, this is a
role-playing game. But he's, but he's talking about
it being a skirmish game like, but it's not, it's like now
we're crossing this thing and it's just like so sick to be
like, oh, wait, we're just doing this all over again, but from
like a really sick other side, you know?
Which I love, which I think is going to be a really good base
for it because every time I find someone's dope ass skirmish
shit, right, I find their itch and like miscast has a bunch of
RPG shit on on their itch. And it's just like, you know,
miscast is fucking miscast. But like, of course they do
because that's what it is. And I, I personally, you know,
I, I like the emergent narrative aspects of skirmish.
That is where my brain is going like way more than anything
happening in the theory space in the role-playing in role-playing
games. Because I I've always liked to
merge a narrative. It's one of the reasons that
we're such big Adam Bass fans here on the show.
Like they just give you the tools and then you play with it
versus being told how to play with your toys and everything
they do. And especially with the way
hypes come is pushing the entire community to be more narrative.
And who gives a fuck if you're half an inch off if the story
beat is cooler And you know, with Wardheim and and Inquisitor
and all the rest of this stuff, being able to play, that's
exactly what I want to do when I play my skirmish games is I role
play, but I like being able to peel.
Like just zoom out once where I'm not role-playing one dude
and and looking for a story. I'm watching my 5 dudes go into
a game not knowing who they are and through their roles being
like, well this guy missed a bunch.
He sucks. This guy hit when it was
important. So now I know like he's the go
to. He's the one that's like getting
ragged on like these. The story emerges.
That's why, that's why, that's why.
Battle, not battle. Battle passes.
Battle reports exist. Being able to tell the story of
what happened. Not writing a story before you
play and then seeing what happens like.
And being like, oh, you, you made this like ritual, like
fountain or something that you placed on the map just for fun.
But like what happens when I like, you know, kill my unit on
the ritual fountain or something?
Like there's no rules for what happens.
You just like agree that like something happens based on the
fiction and it's like we kind of, you know, this is going to,
I don't know how much time we have, but we kind of mentioned
when we were at packs like the like OSR to FKR thing and how.
And that's like also happening there where, you know, I feel
like a lot of us in like the, you know, OSR space are like
trying to devolve back to like this FKR like pre Gygax thing
where like there aren't really rules and you play the world.
And you know, the ink 28 thing is starting to evolve to this
thing where it's like, oh, now I can like pretend to be that dude
and we can watch like the world result in emergent narrative
because I'm 100% with you. Like I have 0 interest in, in
certain styles of like RPG play that put the onus on me to
determine what happens in the game, right?
Like I want to just make decisions and I want my
decisions based on the like laws of the world I'm playing in to
determine outcomes that I would like never expect, you know?
And so in a similar vein of what you're talking about, it's like,
I don't want to give this person, you know, XYI mean, OK,
personality and stuff is is fine, but I don't want to like
decide what's going to happen to this dude.
I want him to miss like 7 shots and that determine what happens
to this dude, right? Or, or how I look at this dude
or whatever, which I think is, yeah, it's like you kind of were
shown. It's like this funny connection
where where we're both like hitting on this thing.
It's it's so fascinating. Yeah.
It's it's weird kind of Benjamin buttoning going in opposite
directions and at the end of the day guess what?
Fucking OD and D was a war game baby like.
They're yeah, no, totally. I mean, not the Gygax is is a
person that you should listen to at all about fucking anything.
But they straight up said like basically the role-playing.
This isn't a game. The fucking role player like to
do what we're doing now, acting and improving and all that kind
of stuff. Because if you actually look at
the OSR is is built on a fucking bed of lies.
People do not play the game that way.
There was like 10 people and like 20 hirelings with like mobs
of people going through dungeons and stuff.
That's a reason to mojores is like, it is because you're going
to have 15 guys go through it. Yeah, yeah, the OSR is anything
but. It is anything but the the old
school revival, but the the emergent narrative.
It like I said, is, is, is, I don't know, that's the fun
parts. That's that's the the cool bits.
And that's why I'm especially here on the show, been trying to
push more into the skirmish space and show people more of of
kind of that aspect of what's going on.
It's also a lot of times you'll need one other person.
It's a lot easier than trying to get four people together for a
weekly fucking game if you just want to sit down and.
I mean, we, we talk about a lot in the OSR space of like being a
referee and not like, you know, AGM or whatever, right?
Where like these games are so much that that you literally
don't even need somebody to run the game.
Like the rules only, you know, give you like, you know, I roll
this to see if I hit you or not. You, you literally don't even
need like a person to paint the world for you because you both
like know how this works. And we can feel, like you said,
just me and you, we can figure out what the story is by having
this dude, like fall off the top of a building or something
because that's what the role said.
I mean, it's just, and it also comes down to like wanting to
play games if you like games, like there's definitely a lot
more game styles that exist out there, but kind of like the two
big ones in the small market space are really like OSR and
story games. And OSR is just such a
genericized, bastardized term that means fucking nothing.
But it's basically if you have dice and it's roughly done as a
Dragon's ish, you can call it OSR because OSR died in 2019.
Don't even get started, but. I would even argue if it looks
like Morkborg you can call it OSR.
Oh, it is because Morkborg is at the end.
Of the day, basically. Fucking Dave Hack, Yeah.
Yeah. Well, it's like, yeah, yeah,
yeah. But what was I saying?
Where was I going? I got lost.
You were saying that you can call anything OSR, you just have
to like roll by story games, right?
Yeah, story games really at. The end of the day is don't get
me started on so much stuff that I want to say.
I'll talk to you about it afterwards.
But there's just there's more than just those styles of play.
But one, I think I like games that feel like games and a lot
of story games to me. One of the reasons I don't lean
into that kind of space is it more than not to me feels just
like a series of prompts. Like I don't want a game of just
improv prompts to role play. To me, the game is the game.
And I think with a lot of story games, it feels like the
role-playing is the game and I and that is a very valid way to
have fun. And I think a lot of people
really enjoy that. That's not the fun that I enjoy.
I'm a systems guy. I like the mechanics, so having
narrative skirmish where I can have the emergent story of my
guys, but also interact with the mechanics in a way that he's
meant to be the mechanics versus like wanting them to get out of
the way or this or that. You know, don't even be started
on blades, but that's. I mean like games I feel.
Like games, you know, like that. That's how I.
Feel I think, yeah, I mean, I think like the the only problem
with story games is that we call them RPGs like that's the only
problem, right? Like, I think, yeah, but I mean,
then maybe we have to call we're doing something different
because like I, I think like I so I played 10 candles, like
actually over packs, like at that night, right.
But tank candles is just a prompt game, right?
Like it's a story game, right? And so like, and it was really
fun, but like it's not what we're doing in this other side
of the hop. Like they're not the same thing,
but we call them the same thing. So you get these like issues
where people are like you're not playing an RPG, like, I don't
know, they're like the the feud between like story gamers and
OSR or whatever. I think it's just like a matter
of the fact that we're pretending like we're both
talking about a sandwich, but like 1's a burrito and one's
like a, a fucking Philly cheese steak or something.
Like it's just not pushed. Back on that a little bit, I
think so video games, for example, there's a huge
difference between let's say a roguelike and and and like a
souls born or like a Metroidvania, right, and a
Metroidvania and a roguelike, especially if you have like an
isometric roguelike versus a size probably Metrovania.
They're both video games, right, but they are incredibly
different games. The issue.
That I find often that I bounce off of and get angry about is
the way people talk about them. Because you're not.
You're always going to find douchebags everywhere, but you
don't see Metroidvadian people often telling people that their
isometric rogue light is wrong, right?
That it's not a real video game, that that's not how it's
supposed to be played and stuff. You see that all the fucking
time. They teach RPG Space where you
have someone come out with this new fucking blog post that
basically says the OSR is wrong, the OSR is always wrong or this
or that, and story games is the right way to play and your fun
is wrong. Like that.
I think is the issue more than anything is that we had these
delineations for a reason. And if people stayed in their
own fucking lane and stopped speaking from a place of
authority when they're not talking about what they're
talking about. Like, I feel like what I get a
lot and I related to music a bunch is someone who only
listens to fucking pop music, right, Complaining that why is
there like thrash metal guitar in my music?
And it's like, well, because that's not, that's not your
music, you know, And I, and that's the issue that I see in
the space A lot is people that try to like you clearly only
play story games, But then all you write about is bitching
about why OSR is bad and vice versa.
And I mean, I think you see that more from the OSR space on other
stuff. But I think that's the issue to
me is that people haven't, we don't have a centralized
language. People call the same thing.
The number of times I've seen people arguing and they're
making the same fucking point, but they're using different
language for it. So they think that they're wrong
is is different. And the the inability for people
to kind of like stay in their lane and talk about what they
want to talk about versus the things that they and what they
like versus the things that they don't like about the things that
aren't part of their hobby is, in my opinion, like the big, the
the bigger problem that we have in like the thoughts and the
teach RPG space. It's not that separation.
It's the way that we talk across those lines, but.
You said more elegantly, more elegantly what I was trying to
say, but yeah, yeah. But totally sorry for those
watching. When we met at PAX, I I knew the
conversation was going to go like this and this is what I
wanted the conversation to be. So we're not really talking
about Glaive, but I. What is talking?
I mean, we talked, we talked about Glaive.
I just wanted to talk about this kind of stuff because I, I
agree. Yeah, that's that's what I was
trying to say because because like, you know, if you like, you
know, start from the OSR side, you kind of are like told to not
like story games, right? Like it's kind of like the what
it's like the general consensus is that they're doing it wrong.
But then maybe you like play a game and you're like, wait, but
this was actually like kind of fun.
Am I not allowed to have fun by like pretending, you know, to
building a story with my friends?
But it's. Also so weird too because you
know, I'm not, I'm not a PBTA person.
I'm not either that thoroughly. But I'll say that Apocalypse
world's like GM section, bro, you're they're telling me to
play an OSR game too. You know what I mean?
Like that's what I don't understand is if people could
just be happy like pulling the bits they like from store games
and OSR and vice versa, or pulling the bits they like from
board games and pulling the bits they like from video games.
But a lot of the teach RPG spaces like this is my space.
It has to be done the way that I want to.
I'm not going to get inspired by other people and I'm going to
complain about the other spaces that they're doing it wrong
because it's not the way my brain works.
You know, it's it's it's rules alive, exacerbated across an
entire fucking space. Like this is this is an article
whether I agree or disagree with Sinclair, he they literally say
right at the beginning, this is how my brain works and you're
probably going to disagree. And then people got mad and
disagreed and it's like they said right off the bat, like I
can disagree and not be mad at them for what they said, but you
know, people are mad. So it's just weird.
It is what it is. Totally, totally.
So we we're we're, we're we're over by a while and I feel like
if we keep going, this conversation go for the rest of
the day. So why don't we wrap here and
we're definitely going to have you back.
I know we talked a little bit about something.
I'll talk to you after the show about another episode.
I'd love to have your opinions on.
But for those that that that don't see the website on the
screen right now, where it or glave or anything?
Where can people find you? Where can people find your
stuff? Where can people find Glave and
everything we talked about today?
Yeah, so Hot Head Collective, you can go to the website.
Instagram is like the only social media I'm really like
doing anything on. I think there's like a Twitter
account, but I I don't do anything on it.
So at Hot Head, I believe it's at Hot Head under score
Collective on Instagram. That's like probably to keep up.
I mean, I guess, I guess I don't really post on my personal, but
you can follow it if you want. Sometimes I'll post up there.
It's at CJ some days is me as like CJA person, but everything
else is a hot head collective, you know, so there's the
website, there's there's the Instagram.
We have a discord server. I want to do more there, but
it's just like figuring out what that looks like at the moment.
So that we didn't talk about is like what I want to start having
this be as well as like events. I want to start hosting events
in the city and I want to see what like cool events online can
be that are different than maybe what we're like already doing.
So I want to explore that. So the Discord server, if you're
like at all interested in that, but I don't know how soon that
is, but maybe like, like movie watch parties, I don't know
stuff online. Trying to build that third space
on Discord that's more than just like yelling at each other in
like a channel, you know? So yeah, so the website, the
Discord, the Instagram, those are the three spots I would say
if you're trying to keep up with what's going on.
And again, it's the fucking Internet.
So just Scroll down a little bit and you'll find all the links to
that. If you if you're, if you're
listening, whether you're on podcast or on the Youtubes, but
listen so great talking to you. I like you said the second we
met and and three sentences and I was like, all right, this,
this is a homie. Like this is someone who who who
thinks in the same realm of thought and, and I enjoy the
same kind of shit And, and I love what you're doing.
I really, you know, I all I can say is keep fucking doing it.
Like I'm getting number three. I've already got the fucking
shirt, like drop the merch and I'll get that too.
And please come back anytime you fucking want.
Every time you drop an issue, like please come back and we can
have some more conversations. But it's been great chat with
you. Thank you brother, 1000% I'm
down. We can talk about anything and
everything. Just send me Adm.
I'm ready. Yeah.
We'll see what we're going to get yelled on on the Internet
for next time. Beautiful.
So yeah, once again, thank you so much and thank you for
everyone that was here watching. And we'll see you next time,
everybody. Bye.