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Hello and welcome to the Weekly 
Scroll Podcast. 

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My name is Ryan and joining me 
once again after too long away 

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is Watt. 
How are you doing today, Watt? 

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Doing great. 
Glad to be here after a decent 

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absence. 
Yeah, it's been, it has been 

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just a lot. 
You know, what I should do is go

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back and look at how long it's 
been. 

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I'm not going to, but at some 
point I will. 

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And then I'll message you and 
say how long it's been. 

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But you, you were saying before 
a stream, at one point you were 

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the most guested guest we had on
the show. 

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And now we're going to 5 or 6 
times or something like that. 

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Yeah, we're going to bring it 
back. 

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We're starting 2026 is the year 
of what we'll be on the show 

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more. 
But but yeah, so in in the in 

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the it's been a lot of stuff has
happened in games in the world 

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since you've been on. 
But one thing that did happen 

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was was these beauties right 
here they arrive for those in 

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podcast land. 
You're missing out if you didn't

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get the beautiful life and death
boxes. 

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Plaid Empress. 
My gosh. 

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You know, as again, what? 
And I were talking before we 

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started and the foiling on the 
green box is stunning. 

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It's got the nice skull and the 
mushrooms coming out of it. 

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There's going to be a reprint of
that. 

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I don't know how much retail, 
it's going to be pretty limited,

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but just the extras from the 
Kickstarter campaign. 

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But I am going to be doing a 
reprint of that box because 

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folks have been pawing at it 
already for good reason. 

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But yeah, yeah. 
One why? 

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I mean, once you get them in 
here and there, there's, I mean,

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boxes are boxes, right? 
These are nice though, but 

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let's. 
OK, so let's let's wind back a 

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little bit. 
So one of the last times you 

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were on, we did talk about this 
this coming out. 

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So what is what I just held up 
what exactly what are the boxes 

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that we're talking about for the
uninitiated that might know not 

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know what's going on? 
Yeah. 

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So Cloud Empress Life and Death 
is the most recent release of 

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the Cloud Empress line of 
products. 

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It's a Panic Engine game, which 
is the name for the mothership 

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rule set in a setting that is 
not a sci-fi horror setting. 

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Cloud versus I think the second 
or one of the first Panic Engine

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games. 
It was kick started I think in 

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April 2024. 
So after some delays that we 

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could talk about 
well-intentioned delays, it's 

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coming out now. 
And so folks are getting this 

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box set that comes with a 
hardcover version of the 

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previously seen format rule book
and Land of Cicadas, which is a 

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hex crawl setting book. 
But then we also did 2 new 

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hardcover expansions that grow 
the hex map even further into a 

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desolate apocalypse called Land 
of the Dead and a vibrant sort 

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of fungal indigenous community 
in the north called Land of the 

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Living. 
Right? 

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I got to say I am an edge 
forward piece of shit. 

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So from day one, from the second
I heard about it, I was like, I 

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cannot wait for death to come 
out. 

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This is the land I want to play 
in. 

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This is the world I want to be 
in. 

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All the skulls and mushrooms and
everything. 

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It's absolutely stunning. 
But yeah, so. 

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So the the new expansion came 
out that came with the boxes. 

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As you said, there were some 
slight delays and all of that. 

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So tell me, I mean, one of the 
cool things that we've done on 

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this show that I really enjoyed 
having you on a guest for is 

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with some of the early stuff you
did. 

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We talked like before it all 
happened. 

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And then we got to do like a 
breakdown of after it all 

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happened. 
And then we also did, I think we

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did a writing seminar as well 
too, which we also. 

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But the post. 
Yeah, that probably was the year

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for now. 
Yeah, it was probably February, 

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January, February for the The 
Cloud Empress Game Jam. 

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Yeah, I think that was actually 
might have been one of the very 

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first episodes of last year. 
So it might have literally been 

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in the beginning of the year 
because I was just looking at 

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this previously because we had 
David Hoskins on recently and he

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was one of our, I think our 
first guest after I think the 

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special that we had. 
So you literally were our first 

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episode last year, the very 
first episode after the 2024 

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year interview. 
So it was one year ago as of 

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like the beginning of January. 
So less time actually than I 

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thought a year, a year goes by, 
but I was saying something and 

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then I and then I started 
looking at the podcast thing. 

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But oh, one of the one, honestly
one of my favorite episodes that

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I've done here on the show was 
talking with you and getting the

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post Kickstarter stuff because 
you are so diligent and just 

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kind of stuff oriented with 
everything that you did. 

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I feel like you did such an 
amazing job of like talking 

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through the breakdowns and the 
good things and the bad things 

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and, and keeping it all together
and still putting out such 

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incredible project. 
So after this most recent one, 

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how, how did it go? 
How, how did things, how did 

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things go with life and death? 
I think people are happy. 

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I mean, ultimately that's what's
most important. 

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I did a survey. 
I tried to do surveys after the 

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campaign and something like, and
it's like 8090% of people that 

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responded to the survey, even 
higher, 9598% kind of stuff. 

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And I'll, I'll be sharing some 
of that in the Kickstarter 

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updates and future campaigns. 
But people seem to be really 

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happy with the product. 
They seem like the delays felt 

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reasonable. 
And ultimately, I think one of 

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the components of crowdfunding 
that I pride myself on is really

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high marks for the communication
along the way and making sure 

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that people who are backing 
these projects and making these 

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a reality feel like they are 
taken care of and their money 

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and their time is rewarded for 
their support. 

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Yeah, I mean, so I've backed too
many, I'll say the number, I 

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really do. 
I'm pushing 800 Kickstarters and

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well over 800 total crowd funds.
And I will say that's probably 

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the biggest thing is I don't 
care if a project is 4 years 

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late. 
If through the entire process, 

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if you say, hey, I'm going to 
update you every two months, 

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every three months, every four 
months. 

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And you actually do, I'm like, 
cool, I'll get it when I get it.

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That's fine. 
Like it's the people that 

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basically go, OK, I'm going to 
update you every month and three

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minutes and go, I'm not doing 
this anymore. 

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You'll get it when you get it. 
And then you don't hear anything

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and then they get mad when you 
ask for an update or there's 

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like radio silence and then 
every comment on the Kickstarter

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pages, is this dead yet? 
Is this dead now? 

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Is this dead now? 
Because when I where's my 

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update? 
You said, you said you were 

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going to do this update in three
weeks ago and it's not here. 

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And that's just human nature is 
like human beings can handle a 

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lot if they know what to expect.
And it's the not knowing that I 

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think drives most people crazy. 
So if I think a lot more people 

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are are like me, they're happy 
to wait. 

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If you tell me why I'm waiting 
or what's going on versus 

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hearing just getting Absolute 
Radio silence and you're and you

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are great about that. 
I would get emails constantly. 

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Like there was never a time 
where I was like, damn, what's 

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going on? 
Because I always kind of knew, 

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like I, I, I heard in the last 
one, what's going on. 

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So I think you're, you're really
good about that. 

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I mean, I think honestly, like 
your, your Kickstarters are some

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of the best I've backed in that 
regard, where I feel like the 

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products are incredible. 
Your communications are 

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incredible. 
The Kickstarters are run really,

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really well. 
And then when you get it, you're

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just happy to have it because 
the number of projects I get 

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where I'll get it and literally 
just be like, and like just 

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Chuck it in a drawer or 
something. 

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Because at this point, I don't 
care because the person like, 

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you know, I'm just, I don't care
about the project you Mark, that

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took too long or the person was 
like rude about something or 

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this or that or just turn me off
in some way. 

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I have probably have two, three 
boxes full of projects that I 

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just got and don't care anymore 
because of the way it was run 

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afterwards. 
And that's just never been a 

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thing that, you know, I think 
anyone can really say about 

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yours. 
Yeah. 

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And, and I think I really try to
think about that crowdfunding 

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experiences potentially really 
positive experience as a 

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creator. 
It's really important to think 

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what is the perception of 
crowdfunding at this point and 

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how can I alleviate some of 
those challenges? 

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I mean, I back a lot of projects
on Kickstarter and backer Kit as

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well. 
And so I've been in those 

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projects where people disappear 
or people creators aren't 

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seeming to hold themselves 
accountable to a communication 

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schedule that they've sort of 
set themselves to. 

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But we create as humans pretty, 
we attach those emotions from 

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the campaign to the products 
that we receive, like you're 

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talking about. 
And so even if, if you, if 

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you're a fan of a certain author
or something and they treat you 

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like a, they're a jerk, when you
see them in person, it's like 

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all of the media changes, right?
Oh, I love this, but I had this 

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really horrible experience with 
this person. 

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And now I think about it a 
little differently. 

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And so thinking about all of 
those touch points, especially 

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too, as we're finishing up 
fulfillment, if somebody loses 

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their package or something 
slightly damaged, it's so 

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important to me to make those 
orders right? 

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Because this is going to be the 
forever impression of me if I, 

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if I do this incorrectly and 
it's maybe only a couple dollars

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or, you know, $20 on my end to 
make something right. 

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Whereas this is going to create 
such a big impression for this 

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person. 
If they're not, they wait all 

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this time and their, their 
package is messed up. 

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And I, I sort of act cheap about
it. 

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To answer your question earlier 
though, in more detail, the I 

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think the three big sort of 
delays were one around the, the 

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writing process. 
I, I, I thought having two 

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writers on one of the books was 
going to speed stuff up, but the

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collaboration actually took a 
lot more time And, and I think 

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the book came out better for it,
but it's two really large books.

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I think the other piece was me 
thinking, Oh well, I did the 

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rule book and Land of Cicadas. 
I did 2 books last time. 

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I'm going to be essentially 
doing maybe a book and 1/2 on 

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this, but the setting books are 
a lot more complicated and and 

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complex. 
The other piece was I sort of, I

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don't exactly remember where it 
started, but I spent a lot of 

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time working on Land of the Dead
has a time heist in it or where 

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you go into the past, but it's a
memory of the past. 

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And so getting that to be 
understandable and clear and 

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playable took a lot of time. 
And I'm not sure I was entirely 

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successful, but it was my it's 
this big sprawling kind of thing

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that you can do in one part of 
the game and, and that was 

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difficult. 
The other piece was I ran into a

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ton of problems with Affinity. 
Affinity is Adobe's major 

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competitor in the like layout 
area. 

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So files weren't exporting at 
the right DPI and images were 

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not showing up because of 
overlay on on multiple. 

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The images were just like not 
appearing when I would do these 

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exports. 
And it was this known issue that

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was existed for like 6 to 8 
months that no one was 

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addressing. 
And so the actual pre production

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process with Panda, the game 
manufacturer took like 2 to 

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three times the length that I 
thought it would. 

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And then once you start to get 
into the fall, we had to push 

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some stuff back because of 
holiday shipping surcharges. 

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So if you start to ship out 
games in November, prices can 

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increase like 20 to 30%, if not 
more. 

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And so the decision was made to 
wait until January to to start 

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to do fulfillment because it 
would reduce those the shipping 

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charges which were already had 
increased because of the the 

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length of the campaign. 
But then also, I think there was

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another 10% tariff that we got 
hit by what was unanticipated 

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could have been a lot worse. 
But so I think those are the the

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primary delays with the project.
And ultimately, like many 

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Kickstarter campaigns, biting 
off maybe more than I could 

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00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,080
chew. 
But it's done. 

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00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,400
It's here. 
Yeah, it exists. 

226
00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:52,520
It's in people's hands. 
The tariffs, though, I mean, so 

227
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:54,640
the boxes were made in China, 
right? 

228
00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:59,760
And how, I mean, how was the 
kind of, I guess the anxiety 

229
00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:01,600
with everything because, you 
know, when Trump started talking

230
00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,680
about the taxes, the tariffs, 
and then they were here, then 

231
00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:06,360
they weren't, then they're new 
ones and there's not. 

232
00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,480
And then someone would say 
something in some countries. 

233
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,680
So there'd be 100% tariff and 
then there wasn't. 

234
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,880
Like how did you just try to 
deal with it? 

235
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,200
You know, when eventually you 
had to start, you know, putting 

236
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,520
it out or, or is that something 
that was kind of a a shadow the 

237
00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,040
entire time? 
Well, there were, I think the 

238
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:29,760
real challenge for publishers 
that is maybe talked about is 

239
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,760
the uncertainty of at all, which
you're mentioning. 

240
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,800
But the uncertainty goes down to
an individual customs agent can 

241
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,280
declare your goods, you pick a 
harmonization code for your 

242
00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,640
items. 
And then the custom agent, I 

243
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:48,080
believe if they inspect it or as
it's coming in can agree or 

244
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,880
disagree or and then apply 
tariffs based on that 

245
00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:55,120
harmonization code. 
So one of the big things I know 

246
00:13:55,520 --> 00:14:00,880
happened in the mothership 
fulfillment was board games and 

247
00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:06,240
games have a much higher tariff 
cost than books, which you see 

248
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,400
across a lot of shipping areas 
and those things. 

249
00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:14,400
So one of the big concerns I had
was whether we're in this sort 

250
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,760
of ambiguous zone and that they 
are a box set and there is some 

251
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,640
non book materials inside. 
It's like a pad of paper and a 

252
00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,600
map and some pamphlets and 
things. 

253
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,280
So that was a big concern is, is
even if I understand what's 

254
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,440
going on with the tariff, which 
one would be applied to the 

255
00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,920
items was was uncertain at some 
points. 

256
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,720
It was, I think like 145% 
tariffs from China. 

257
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:46,840
I think one of the realizations 
I came to during the process was

258
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:51,120
this, this total acceptance that
my company might not survive. 

259
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,720
And I was posting that in 
Kickstarter updates is just, 

260
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:55,800
hey, this might be the end of 
us. 

261
00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,960
And this detachment from the 
outcome that sort of had to 

262
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:07,640
happen in that I could do my 
best, I could try my best and 

263
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:14,360
something might happen that 
totally destroys the fulfilment 

264
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,680
of this game, which is normally,
I mean, you hear these horror 

265
00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:21,080
stories and I was holding my 
breath until people started 

266
00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,120
getting the games because 
sometimes you're, they open it 

267
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,360
up and everyone's full of mold. 
Oh no. 

268
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:33,040
So no, no horror stories. 
And, and we weren't the, the 

269
00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,640
tariffs were what we anticipated
and shipping prices were what we

270
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,720
anticipated. 
But a lot of it is sort of 

271
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:45,720
holding your breath and 
ultimately 1 making a decision 

272
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:47,920
at a certain point. 
There was some tariff talks. 

273
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,080
I mean, it seemed to be 
happening every three months or 

274
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,440
so with China. 
And so eventually just be 

275
00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:57,000
shipped it and you just it's on 
the ocean for a month or two and

276
00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,280
you're just like, well, what's I
don't know what's going to 

277
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:03,360
happen when it hits. 
I did hear about some options to

278
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:10,040
put materials into warehouses 
that weren't that that were pre 

279
00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,720
custom warehouses or something 
that you could maybe do. 

280
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,160
So that was my sort of back 
pocket. 

281
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,320
Like, if we're really in 
trouble, I heard about some 

282
00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,840
people on the news like keeping 
stuff in warehouses and then 

283
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,480
importing it at a later date. 
So I just sort of thought, you 

284
00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:26,800
know, day at a time kind of 
thing. 

285
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,880
And just, but it was a lot of 
stress and, and unnecessarily so

286
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,520
unnecessarily as in like in the 
end, it wasn't as bad as it 

287
00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:42,400
could have been. 
American businesses should not 

288
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,560
be subjected to this type of 
uncertainty and chaos. 

289
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,200
It doesn't particularly benefit 
anyone. 

290
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:54,360
And, and now we're seeing that 
it was unconstitutional and that

291
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,280
people might be getting these 
refunds. 

292
00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:00,160
And it's such an odd situation. 
And that some people with their 

293
00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,359
bath mats or whatever product 
games may be coming in would get

294
00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,560
these 145% charges that they did
have to pay. 

295
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:10,599
And maybe they went out of 
business, right? 

296
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:13,640
And that was the outcome because
they were importing their goods 

297
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,359
at this one week before the 
negotiations had fully 

298
00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:21,920
solidified as my understanding. 
And so the cruelty and the, the 

299
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:28,000
uncertainty and the, the chance 
of it all is just really you, I,

300
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,280
I, you can't plan for that, 
right. 

301
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,920
And so one of the things that 
is, is also challenging is rest 

302
00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:37,840
rings, which we'll talk more 
about is also going to be 

303
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,680
printed in China. 
And it's sort of like just 

304
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,600
trusting that things will go the
way they go. 

305
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,840
And also like we mentioned with 
the crowdfunding process, really

306
00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:50,400
communicating things early and 
saying, hey, if you know, if 

307
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,200
tariffs happen, this is how 
we're going to deal with them. 

308
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:57,520
And here's how much I think I'll
be able to eat from the product,

309
00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,520
but I may have to pass on or I 
will have to pass on this much 

310
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,480
to consumers because it's 
shipping rated cost, those kinds

311
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,560
of things. 
Just communicating early and 

312
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,000
often about them. 
We had a lot of sympathy though,

313
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,240
I think the the word had been 
gone out and people were pretty 

314
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,000
outraged in our hobby spaces 
around it. 

315
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,440
And so there was a lot of 
sympathy and and volunteering to

316
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,640
to pay or or not have me 
completely own that cost. 

317
00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:26,800
Yeah. 
And in the end, like how, I 

318
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,000
mean, I'm not asking how much 
like you made or how much 

319
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,200
whatever, but like, was it like 
as bad as you thought? 

320
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,440
Was it about what it was or is 
everything like you're good? 

321
00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:44,120
Like it ended up being like, OK 
or I think for a variety of 

322
00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:49,000
factors. 
My coffers are really empty 

323
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,520
right now. 
So we're going into Rust strings

324
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,960
and hoping the project does 
well. 

325
00:18:55,360 --> 00:19:00,240
I, I've been sort of thinking a 
lot about what it means to be in

326
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,760
this industry. 
I think last year I probably 

327
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:12,240
made 20,000 from like as a 
personal salary for maybe an 

328
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,320
hour to three hours of work 
every day. 

329
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,840
So that the numbers on that, I 
don't think, I don't know how 

330
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:26,520
those numbers sound, but it's 
not a very lucrative career 

331
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,120
choice. 
And I have a full time job on 

332
00:19:28,120 --> 00:19:33,600
top of this that that helps. 
But my, my wife's going back to 

333
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,440
work. 
And so that'll create some. 

334
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:41,320
I was sort of the, the primary 
breadwinner of the family for my

335
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:45,320
my wife and my child. 
And so our financial situation 

336
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:46,760
is going to be changing in the 
future. 

337
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,760
And I think that will create 
some freedom for me to maybe 

338
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,440
publish less frequently and less
and rely on that less a little 

339
00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:04,800
bit, which which feels exciting.
But I really empathize with 

340
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:06,600
people that try to make this 
their livelihood. 

341
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,560
It's it's it's very, very 
difficult to do. 

342
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:12,760
Yeah. 
And you know, and it and I 

343
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,720
understand that, you know, we 
there's one thing about this, 

344
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:17,880
like the podcast we've done 
forever is we're monetized 

345
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,000
forever, unmonetized forever 
because I didn't. 

346
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,440
Ever want to bring money into it
for that kind of reason? 

347
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,840
Like, at what point do you then 
start to rely on it? 

348
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,680
And if it, you know, falls off 
from underneath you, where are 

349
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:35,240
you kind of thing? 
But also you can't really like I

350
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,600
can understand people want to 
not grind themselves to death in

351
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,960
an economy that is not designed 
for any of us to sustain, you 

352
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,000
know, a living, you know, a lot 
of us are millennials and elder 

353
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,440
millennials that were promised a
lifestyle that we're we're never

354
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,920
really going to have. 
So, you know, being able to try 

355
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,800
to remove yourself from the 
system and do the things you 

356
00:20:53,800 --> 00:21:00,160
want to do and being should be 
able to support yourself with. 

357
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,720
But again, in the economy that 
we're currently in, in the in 

358
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:04,720
the state of our current, you 
know, lazy's capitalism, it's 

359
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,280
really difficult, but you can't 
begrudge people from wanting to 

360
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,840
do it and trying to do it. 
You know, it's just got to 

361
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:16,280
hopefully go in with some, some 
some wings on in the pool and, 

362
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,760
and hopefully, you know, there's
some soft place to land if it 

363
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:23,000
doesn't work out. 
But you know, I guess you got at

364
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,360
least try, you know, and that's 
that's what's important. 

365
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:30,400
And so much of it is the long 
game too, in terms of I think 

366
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,960
most companies shoot for having 
an Evergreen title or something 

367
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:38,240
that that continues to have 
interest for years and, and you 

368
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:43,840
can do retail sales then and 
there. 

369
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,640
A book that I really think about
a lot is, is called Small 

370
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,080
Giants, if I'm getting the title
correctly, but it's talking 

371
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,000
about really successful 
privately owned businesses in 

372
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,560
the United States during this 
particular period and maybe the 

373
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,760
2000s. 
But it talked about what made 

374
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,920
these businesses successful. 
And they went back and looked at

375
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,960
the businesses and 30% of them 
had gone out of business since 

376
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:06,960
they had written this book or 
something like that. 

377
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,960
And one of the additions they 
added was cash streams. 

378
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:16,800
So liquid cash coming into your 
business as a major factor in 

379
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:21,040
terms of what storms you could 
weather and, and diversifying 

380
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,840
that cash flow. 
And so one of the things I did 

381
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:26,520
recently was I started a 
Patreon. 

382
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:31,120
I was really Patreon averse 
because I really am challenged 

383
00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:35,120
by the world we live in and that
there's so many asks for a 

384
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:38,600
dollar or two everywhere we go. 
Every time you buy something at 

385
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,320
A at a store or restaurant, 
there's a, there's a tip option.

386
00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:45,160
Tips obviously at restaurants 
are different. 

387
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,840
I'm not saying don't tip your 
server, but any kind of fast 

388
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,400
cash place or anything, there's 
just this tip option everywhere.

389
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,560
Everyone has a Patreon. 
Everyone's has a, a small 

390
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,760
crowdfunding campaign for, for 
this or that. 

391
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:03,120
So it's an overwhelming 
environment for most people, and

392
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:06,480
I've always wanted to really 
limit the amount of financial 

393
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:11,000
asks I have on fans of my work 
to a couple times a year for a 

394
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:16,880
number of reasons. 
But I think I'm hoping to really

395
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,960
push into longer and longer and 
longer development cycles where 

396
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,880
people can fund and support the 
work as it's happening. 

397
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:26,680
I think there are benefits 
around that. 

398
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,280
So the ideas maybe have a game 
on Patreon that I'm putting out 

399
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,640
for a year or two years or three
years that people can see play, 

400
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:41,280
test and and start to enjoy. 
And then a crowdfunding campaign

401
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,320
that sort of solidifies that in 
a print product. 

402
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:50,120
And that's, that's ideal if you,
if you can, because not only do 

403
00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:53,960
you have the time to do that 
then and to be able to have at 

404
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,640
the end, but the amount of 
feedback you can get through the

405
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,560
entire time, like not having to 
try to hit your friends up all 

406
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,720
the time to, Hey, can we get a 
group together and play tests 

407
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,840
and such that like, you know, 
people that are already fans of 

408
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,520
your work that like want to put 
in that work for you is, is got 

409
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,400
to be, you know, extremely 
helpful along the process like 

410
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,000
you could be. 
So you can basically be done 

411
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,160
when you get to the Kickstarter,
which anyone that ever runs a 

412
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,360
crowdfund like the number one 
advice that everyone always says

413
00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:21,320
is just have it done before you 
start as much done as you can. 

414
00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:24,520
So this dress is off, you know, 
later in the process because 

415
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:25,840
that's how you burn out super 
quick. 

416
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:31,000
But you know, that sounds great.
You know, would you ideally in 

417
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,960
that world, would that be the 
bolt? 

418
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,840
Would that be all of your output
or would you have small stuff 

419
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:41,640
kind of going through as well? 
I think the idea is big project,

420
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,160
little project kind of thing. 
So since we last talked, I also 

421
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,000
did Stories from the Slip which 
was a small Zine bundle. 

422
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,040
Written in. 
The world of Cloud Empress along

423
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,160
with a Almanac which is the 
collections for my newsletter 

424
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:57,840
expansion. 
So I do a free newsletter 

425
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:03,920
expansion for Cloud Empress and 
forthcoming games every month. 

426
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,880
And so I bundle that together in
a print scene as a stretch call 

427
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,160
add on. 
We have volume 1 and Volume to, 

428
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,760
which was very goofy that volume
2 came out before volume one 

429
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,120
with the way that shipping 
happened and with. 

430
00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:19,400
Tariffs, I should say. 
Too. 

431
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,560
That campaign. 
Was created to pad my expenses 

432
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:29,120
for tariffs and and for shipping
costs and surcharges and and was

433
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,960
very necessary. 
Would not have been able to I 

434
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:39,360
think ultimately. 
I think I ate about 8 to 10,000 

435
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:41,560
dollars. 
In shipping charges that I 

436
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,240
didn't want to put back on 
backers. 

437
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:50,400
Some of that was because I. 
Added this invisible. 

438
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,800
Discount to shipping when the 
campaign started. 

439
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:55,120
But it's hard. 
It's a. 

440
00:25:55,120 --> 00:26:01,160
Hard value proposition to. 
Sell a game with 30. 

441
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:06,080
Dollars 35 forty $50.00 of 
shipping on it I I that just I 

442
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,920
think that does not meet the 
expectations of the customer and

443
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,720
so. 
People were willing to pay more.

444
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,200
Maybe for shipping and I had 
people reach out about that, but

445
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,880
ultimately. 
I think. 

446
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,320
Kickstarter and crowdfunding 
should be also a good value 

447
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,720
proposition. 
There's the altruism and the 

448
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,320
support for the work and those 
things. 

449
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,000
But I've seen campaigns where if
you can get everything for 

450
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,040
retail 20 to $30 less, you're 
going to lose your your base 

451
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:38,600
pretty quickly. 
And I'm pretty solid solidly in 

452
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,400
the world where I think 
crowdfunding is my path forward.

453
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,040
So it's. 
Not all gloom and doom with. 

454
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,000
Crowdfunding. 
But I think price is a key 

455
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,360
component to value in the 
crowdfunding proposition. 

456
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,320
And part of that too is just 
maybe letting stuffs. 

457
00:26:55,360 --> 00:26:59,480
I mean, Cloudypress has been 
sold out everywhere for four to 

458
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,040
five months or so. 
And so I've had lots of people 

459
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:03,480
reaching out. 
I just can't get these books 

460
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:04,480
anywhere. 
Where are they? 

461
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,080
And so the other thing is like 
just maybe being more 

462
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,600
comfortable with stuff being 
sold out until I can do reprints

463
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,560
to the crowdfunding is 
unfortunate as that is where I 

464
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,200
think the accessibility. 
But also. 

465
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,960
Moving into rustlings, which 
we'll talk more about probably 

466
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:26,560
in, you know, the near future, 
the plan is for all of the all 

467
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,200
of the digital files to be free 
from the start or or after a 

468
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,160
certain amount of time. 
And ideally I want to move to an

469
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,800
environment where all my digital
releases are free. 

470
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:41,640
I think that's, I don't know, 
exciting, cool and also 

471
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,040
acknowledges the reality we live
in with how easy it is to. 

472
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,360
Send free. 
Copyrighted stuff around on the 

473
00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:52,800
Internet. 
Yeah, I mean, so a couple of. 

474
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,440
Things I had to erase my board 
and start writing notes. 

475
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,920
The shipping thing, I mean, I 
agree with you to a point. 

476
00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:04,520
I think that maybe when a year 
ago when your Kickstarter 

477
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,800
happened was still after 
shipping prices have been crazy 

478
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,560
and in the past year they've 
gotten so up and down and crazy 

479
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,320
into that. 
It's I think people do have 

480
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,360
maybe just me because I buy so 
much shit, but I think people 

481
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:18,680
have a better understanding of 
that. 

482
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,280
Shipping is just fucking 
expensive now. 

483
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,560
I mean, the number of things 
that I buy where the shipping 

484
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,360
cost more than the thing that I 
bought is crazy, But it's 

485
00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:31,440
becoming just a a reality, I 
think for a lot of people. 

486
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,600
Like if you're not buying 
especially, you know, for 

487
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,200
whatever reason in our hobby, we
have a lot of people in Europe, 

488
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,000
especially, you know, in England
and stuff. 

489
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:41,920
If I want to buy something from 
them, you know, I bought 

490
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,280
something recently that cost $35
and it was $36 shipping. 

491
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,840
So it cost a dollar more than it
was something like that, right? 

492
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,600
I think the challenge though is,
is if you can get it retail 

493
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:56,640
then, right? 
So if I, if you can buy Cloud of

494
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,520
Bris from Tuesday Night Games or
Exalted Funeral or something, 

495
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,680
their shipping is going to be 
like 10 to $15 probably, yeah. 

496
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,680
But I mean, so yes, but you also
have fans and supporters, right?

497
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,760
So Cairn, you know, is and this 
kind of goes to a later point 

498
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,120
you have Karen is free. 
Karen has always been free, 

499
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,640
Karen always be free. 
And even when the Karen 

500
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,520
Kickstarter started, they said 
as soon as Kickstarter is over, 

501
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,440
we're going to put it at print 
on demand pay, you know, at cost

502
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,640
from Lulu. 
So you can always just wait for 

503
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,280
that. 
And the Kickstarter still made 

504
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,320
$250,000. 
So I think, you know, a lot of 

505
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,360
it is people that are willing to
support you and pay that extra 

506
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,200
now as opposed to waiting for 
retail because they're fans of 

507
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,920
you and your work and and they 
want the support, you know, 

508
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,840
which I think I mean, I would, I
do. 

509
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,640
I think Cloud Empress has a lot 
of fans. 

510
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,360
I think Cloud Empress is 
probably the biggest like non 

511
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,920
mothership panic engine thing 
out there and mothership is 

512
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,600
always, you know, it's going to 
be big forever. 

513
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,760
So cloud Empress is is is up 
there as well. 

514
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:02,080
So and kind of transitioning in 
that last one you had with the 

515
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,120
free digital releases. 
I make this argument all the 

516
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,200
time. 
I think everyone should always 

517
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:11,280
have a free PDF for everything 
because it's the way that you 

518
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,440
grow a community and growing the
community, especially if you can

519
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,840
go long term with a game that 
you have, is the way that you 

520
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,280
become profitable, right? 
If you look at the top five, six

521
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,400
games in the, you know, small 
market RPG space, you're talking

522
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,600
mother shit, Merck Borg, Cairn, 
Mouse Ritter, like all these big

523
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,760
games. 
What all of them have in common 

524
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,480
is the base game is completely 
free, like anyone can get into 

525
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,000
it. 
So, you know, again, with Cairn 

526
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,360
as a great example, it is free, 
it will always be free. 

527
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,280
And yet it is still successful 
every time it goes to 

528
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,960
Kickstarter. 
Or you know, I mean, Yohai was 

529
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,640
even able to, to start a 
publishing company, you know, 

530
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,760
and everything that with, with 
the Karen store and everything 

531
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,920
all based off of free PDF. 
Like if you can, it's in my 

532
00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,480
opinion is way better to if you 
give the PDF for free to five 

533
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,440
people and one of those people 
buys your game. 

534
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:07,760
I think at the end you build 
more like buys a physical 

535
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,560
product. 
You, you still those other 

536
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,480
people are still going to spread
that to other people. 

537
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,160
And that you get this cascade 
effect of people coming back to 

538
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,760
your game versus saying, 
instead, I'm going to charge 

539
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,200
those five people 20 bucks, 
right? 

540
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,720
And then maybe two of them are 
going to buy that and maybe one 

541
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,320
of them will talk about it. 
You know, so it's, it's this 

542
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,400
thing where it's definitely a 
balancing act. 

543
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,200
But if you get into it to build 
community versus get into it to 

544
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,160
make money right now, I think is
a very is a choice that a lot of

545
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,600
people have to make. 
And I personally think that most

546
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,240
more people should lean towards 
having, you know, free core 

547
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,040
products and then being able to 
build back to it. 

548
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,960
And isn't isn't the core rules 
for a cloud of risk free and 

549
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:49,560
also like the bean barge as 
well? 

550
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,080
Yeah, and Landis cicadas was 
made free I think in November, 

551
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,400
December. 
I think the plan is to to get 

552
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:02,200
about a year of of recuperating 
costs on the digital for cloud 

553
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,080
Ampers in particular, and then 
make those free as well. 

554
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,800
The expansion IA lot of 
companies do the rule books for 

555
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,120
free. 
I think I haven't seen a ton 

556
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,240
that do a lot of the expansion 
content free, which again, maybe

557
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,120
is is not healthy for the 
ecosystem. 

558
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,080
I don't know, but I'm really 
trying to drive people to like 

559
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,680
you're talking about 
crowdfunding being that if you 

560
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,320
support my work, here's the, 
here's the one or two 

561
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:30,160
opportunities that you can do 
that versus making a lot of 

562
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,840
smaller transactions. 
Yeah. 

563
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:35,920
You know. 
You're, you're a, a good 

564
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,840
businessman, a good business 
person and you, everything 

565
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:40,280
you've put out has been 
fantastic. 

566
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,080
So, you know, I think we've 
talked on the show, even after 

567
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,800
you've been on about basically 
saying, if you want to know how 

568
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,640
to run a Kickstarter and make 
good stuff, just follow anything

569
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,000
that wah does and they'll 
they'll lead you in the right 

570
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,720
direction. 
So I think whatever you decide 

571
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,080
to do, you know, you're going to
make the best possible choices 

572
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,600
that you can at the time. 
And, and so far it's worked out.

573
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,520
I mean, I love everything you've
put out. 

574
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,840
And I almost, here's the crazy 
thing is I almost wanted to 

575
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:11,400
leave one of these sealed just 
so I could show it off because 

576
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,520
not only is the product great, I
mean even whoever you got to 

577
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,840
package it is fantastic too. 
Not a single one of these 

578
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,000
corners has bent in. 
There's not a scratch on 

579
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,680
anything. 
The number of things that I've 

580
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,920
gotten where it's like, here's a
box set and we just threw it in 

581
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,080
a box with one piece of brown 
paper and it comes beat to hell 

582
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,000
and you e-mail someone about it 
and they're like, Oh well, 

583
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,160
that's the thing. 
Everything start to finish with 

584
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,800
all the stuff you do is so well 
thought out and well put 

585
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,760
together and you get that 
satisfaction when it actually 

586
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,440
shows up. 
So again, I mean, keep doing 

587
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,400
what you're doing and like I 
said, whatever you decide, we'll

588
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,720
talk about it and you know, in 
the future and, and see how it 

589
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,040
goes. 
But you know, I, I will support 

590
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,480
any Kickstarter that you put out
and speaking, Speaking of 

591
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,160
Kickstarters, you're putting out
Rust wings. 

592
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,320
We, we've hinted at it a couple 
times. 

593
00:33:58,400 --> 00:33:59,960
So what, what is that? 
What is this? 

594
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,200
So Rust wings is my next Ghibli 
inspired adventure tabletop 

595
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,120
role-playing game. 
And it's we talked about mouse 

596
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:07,880
trigger. 
It is compatible with mouse 

597
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,480
trigger. 
It's a new take on the rule set,

598
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,400
and it's not. 
It doesn't start mice right, but

599
00:34:13,679 --> 00:34:16,560
it uses the same systems as 
mouse Tritter. 

600
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,520
And if you're familiar with 
mouse Ritter, you'll be able to 

601
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,080
pick this up and play it quite 
easily. 

602
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:25,760
But you play as teenage treasure
hunters exploring a vast ocean. 

603
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,600
The earth is flooded in the near
future and there are these 

604
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:34,560
islands that were stolen by the 
worker robots in the society and

605
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,120
they're starting to float back 
to human civilization. 

606
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:43,400
And so as this teenage crew, you
will fly out to one of those 

607
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,760
particular islands in this 
campaign called Tower Island and

608
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,920
investigate your missing 
friends, but also look for 

609
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,159
treasure. 
Cool stuff. 

610
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,400
And I don't know, like Dick 
around have fun kind of thing on

611
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,240
the island. 
So buzzword. 

612
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:04,280
Buzzword that you said that we 
have to talk about Ghibli 

613
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:12,480
inspired that that so, but we 
have talked about this before 

614
00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:16,360
and I feel like of all the 
Ghibli inspired stuff I've seen,

615
00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:21,280
this one makes more sense 
because a lot of people, I mean,

616
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,120
I'm a big I'm a big Ghibli fan, 
but what a lot of people I think

617
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:29,320
when they say Ghibli, what they 
mean is like whimsical and like 

618
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:34,080
rolling green hills and shit, 
right Versus, you know, like the

619
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,520
I mean Princess Monoke, which is
literally the story of like 

620
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,760
nature versus industrialization 
or the first time I watch 

621
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:45,000
spirited away and you you 
realize that that like gunk 

622
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,400
monster thing in the bathhouse 
is actually just a polluted 

623
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,560
river. 
Like there are there are deep 

624
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,280
things in Ghibli and like some 
very sad shit that they put out 

625
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,440
in like very deep and even even 
the more quote UN quote 

626
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,600
whimsical things. 
There's always an extremely deep

627
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,920
undercurrent to everything that 
Ghibli puts out, which is what 

628
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,120
makes it Ghibli. 
It's what makes it not Disney. 

629
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,640
So it's not just like teens 
sticking around an island or 

630
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:11,720
something, right? 
Like what? 

631
00:36:11,720 --> 00:36:16,600
What makes you call this Ghibli 
inspired and not have it be this

632
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:29,760
whimsy core bullshit? 
For me, Ghibli is a is a 

633
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,880
combination of things. 
But one of the. 

634
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:40,240
Elements that's most often lost 
in the Ghibli inspired marketing

635
00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:44,520
frame that we see a lot in 
tabletop role-playing games in 

636
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,200
particular, and I think there's 
a lot of reasons for it being so

637
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,120
popular. 
Is the. 

638
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,200
Darkness. 
I wrote a recent Patreon post 

639
00:36:53,200 --> 00:37:00,000
about how I feel like darkness 
is underappreciated or under. 

640
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,600
When we talk about Ghibli, we 
don't necessarily mention the 

641
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,280
darkness in the films. 
And if you look across and when 

642
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,760
we talk about Ghibli, we're 
usually talking about Miyazaki. 

643
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,200
Although there are Takahata and 
others that that have done 

644
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,560
films, but we're usually talking
about Miyazaki's work. 

645
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:18,840
But there's even Castle in the 
Sky, which is probably the 

646
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:23,360
direct one of the jumping off 
points in terms of building the 

647
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,560
world for this. 
It's sort of this the the the 

648
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,000
main characters that grow up in 
this sort of like, you know, the

649
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,360
main boy grows up in this sort 
of like mind out area that 

650
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,160
they've destroyed through 
industry. 

651
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,840
And there's Miyazaki was 
inspired by I think he was in 

652
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,720
Wales and saw this union 
activity. 

653
00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:47,120
And so Miyazaki socialism was 
like driving some of his 

654
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:48,720
inspirations for castle in the 
sky. 

655
00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:52,640
And then we have them going up 
to Lapida, the, the flying city 

656
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:57,800
and, and it's like a, a weapon, 
a super weapon that that sets 

657
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,760
off an atomic bomb. 
So I think the, the piece around

658
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,920
that is 1. 
There's there's a a look at 

659
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:12,040
humanity in its full spectrum, 
not just like comfort and 

660
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,960
coziness, but also the darkness.
The. 

661
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:21,280
Destruction, the cruelty that is
present in humans, in nature at 

662
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:26,480
large. 
I also think that one thing I've

663
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,680
been really intentional about is
trying to say something and also

664
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,960
go beyond my inspirations when I
put these pieces together. 

665
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:42,000
And so with Rust Wings, we. 
Have this sort of broader? 

666
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:48,080
Sense of adventure and fun and 
play that is really important. 

667
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,640
I wanted to do a lighter. 
I had, I have this really dark 

668
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,040
project that I've been working 
on in this lighter project, Rust

669
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,360
Wings that I was like which one 
am I going to do? 

670
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,000
And I feel with how dark the 
world. 

671
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,960
Feels in. 
America, I felt, I felt like I 

672
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,240
made the right choice to just 
sort of emphasize play and 

673
00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:06,640
exploration. 
But in the world of Rust Wings, 

674
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,320
you all play as teenagers 
because when you get to be 18, 

675
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,400
you were drafted into the 
military, this authoritarian 

676
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,400
Royal Navy. 
And so anyone of adult age 

677
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:23,240
either is a. 
Fascist Navy. 

678
00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:28,400
Person or they escape and run 
away to be sky pirates and so 

679
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,080
your parents you don't have 
parents because they're either 

680
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,480
serving in the military or 
they've run away to become sky 

681
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,640
pirates and so the main 
characters are watched over by 

682
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,200
their grandparents and they have
a lot of free time in this sort 

683
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:48,880
of industrial oil rig that they 
all live in and and also then 

684
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,880
dealing a lot with this broader 
robot revolution that happened 

685
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,600
where robot kind 50 years ago 
laid down their tools and 

686
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,840
decided not to work and so 
trying. 

687
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,880
To deal with some of those. 
Broader social and ecological 

688
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:08,040
questions in the the sense of or
in the the setting of a 

689
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,200
role-playing game is something 
that's really important and 

690
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,920
actually say something with the 
work that's put out, not just 

691
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:19,240
sort of a a best of Miyazaki 
images kind of thing and that's 

692
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:20,640
and. 
This is what we talked about 

693
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,160
and. 
This is why I'm excited for it. 

694
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,400
And and I've talked about this 
project to other people before, 

695
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,160
like since we've talked about 
it, but since the preview page 

696
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,200
has been up for that exact 
reason, you know, because there 

697
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,200
had there was some, wasn't there
some new like Obajima bullshit 

698
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:34,920
that was recently and it's 
literate. 

699
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,040
And then you hear the creators 
talking about like, oh, like 

700
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,480
make sure everyone's like 
cartoony monsters so we can 

701
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:40,800
murder. 
And I feel bad about it. 

702
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,440
And it's like, what the does 
that have to do with Ghibli? 

703
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,280
Like you just have some like 
roughly kind of anime looking 

704
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,880
art and then you're just putting
these buzzwords on it versus 

705
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:50,440
exactly what you're talking 
about. 

706
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,680
Like it's this dystopian world. 
Like literally you're, you're 

707
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,440
like having these flood 
adventures in the background of 

708
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,600
like your parents are in this 
like fascist Navy in this like 

709
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,600
quasi post apocalypse world 
where there's like pirates and 

710
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,480
all the stuff going on. 
And like, even as teenagers, 

711
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,880
there's this like looming thing 
ahead of you, Like I could be 18

712
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,080
in a couple of years and what is
the decision I'm going to make? 

713
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,120
Am I going to go with the Navy 
or am I going to run away and do

714
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,360
this whole thing? 
So that that to me is what this 

715
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,920
is one of the few games I've 
read that has used that that 

716
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:25,240
that buzzword where it feels 
like it actually fits because of

717
00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:26,320
the thought that you're putting 
into it. 

718
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:28,800
And you can see how that 
correlates to a lot of the stuff

719
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,440
you've done in Cloud Empress 
too, though, like a lot of the 

720
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,400
even the at first adventure you 
ran for us on the show where we 

721
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,760
went down into this like broken 
down, kind of like archaeology. 

722
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,880
And there was like things that 
were plugged in, but like life 

723
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:46,000
coming from it too, that you've 
put a lot of thought into the 

724
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,360
society and the issues that 
society can has in all of the 

725
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,240
games you put out. 
So I'm really excited to see a 

726
00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:56,720
non collatopers thing, but that 
obviously still has the same 

727
00:41:56,720 --> 00:42:01,920
kind of like passion for. 
That kind of like aspects of 

728
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,160
the. 
Games that you put out so I and 

729
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:05,800
Mastrator is one of my favorite 
games of all time. 

730
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,560
I think in a certain light, 
Mastrator might be the best 

731
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,160
teacher PD ever written. 
I've said that more than once 

732
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,600
and I'm going to stay by but why
mastrator? 

733
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,000
Why'd you pick Mastrator 
specifically for Rust wings? 

734
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:23,240
So my my sort of concept as a 
publisher Worlds by Watt is to 

735
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,600
make games in. 
Other people's rule. 

736
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,680
Sets. 
So I've been looking at 

737
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:33,240
different rule sets and I 
wanted. 

738
00:42:33,240 --> 00:42:34,720
To make a game that was a little
bit more. 

739
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:38,240
Accessible than cloud and bris 
one of the things. 

740
00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:42,120
Too, that I had heard a lot was.
That and this isn't this is sort

741
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,240
of an all ages game, whatever 
that means. 

742
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:49,040
I only played it with adults at 
this point, but I think you 

743
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:50,640
could play it with younger. 
Folks too. 

744
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,480
Is IA lot of people on the 
discord were saying, oh, mouse, 

745
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:57,280
I put mouth shooters the first 
game that my kids played with I 

746
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,360
brought, you know, my kids or 
younger folks or I use master to

747
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,640
sort of onboard people into 
tabletop role-playing games. 

748
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:07,000
And I think the tactile pieces, 
the chips are really valuable. 

749
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:16,760
The three attributes or stats or
whatever is is so simple the 

750
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:18,560
mice. 
Help but. 

751
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:23,160
In this it's teenagers, so the 
simplicity. 

752
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,120
Of the system was really. 
Attractive to me as well as 

753
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:30,520
tapping into a new community. 
I wanted to do a roll under 

754
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,960
system and so something 
different than Cloud Empress 

755
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:39,080
mechanically and one of the 
things. 

756
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,200
Was. 
The the tactility of the the 

757
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,840
chips, I wanted to explore a 
little bit further. 

758
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,800
And so one major component of 
Rust Wings is both the physical 

759
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,480
product and as you play the game
is these cards. 

760
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,400
So it'll have a full deck of 
cards. 

761
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,280
Many of these would be items, 
but I've, I've also done 

762
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,800
something really neat with 
character creation where you 

763
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,680
deal out three cards to each 
player and those are your 

764
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:04,440
attributes. 
And so you assign those two 

765
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:09,920
different slots. 
They can vary, you know, I think

766
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,040
it's like 8 to 14 or I forget 
what then the number spread is 

767
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:15,680
exactly. 
But then when you take a wound, 

768
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:17,560
you flip that card and there's a
wounded side. 

769
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,440
And so for some particularly low
stats, the number increases 

770
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,800
quite considerably. 
Whereas if you had a particular 

771
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,720
high attribute, it might go down
as you might expect. 

772
00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:29,800
But it's just sort of 1 
balancing. 

773
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:34,360
But also this narrative thing 
that we see in in films and 

774
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,880
Castle in the sky work. 
Hey, maybe you get knocked down 

775
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,920
and then you're really 
determined or you're really mad 

776
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:40,960
and you throw like a big punch 
kind of thing. 

777
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,880
So I'm trying to model that, but
then also giving people like 

778
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:50,080
keepsake cards and items and, 
and handing out cards is just 

779
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,920
such a really easy way to create
characters. 

780
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,960
And I've played the set a number
of conventions for the play 

781
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,440
testing with new players. 
And it's, you can create 

782
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,200
characters in about 5 minutes. 
It's, it's really phenomenal. 

783
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,280
And then we have these fun 
portrait cards. 

784
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:08,360
So you can get this you can. 
Draft the artwork. 

785
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:12,360
For your character too. 
So all of this sort of goes to 

786
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:16,040
accessibility in terms of how 
easy is it to get and play with 

787
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,440
other people. 
How is it is easy as it to run 

788
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:23,840
to create characters and that 
doesn't preclude more experience

789
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,720
role-playing game players from 
playing it, but something 

790
00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:28,880
different than Cloud Empress 
that that really leans and I 

791
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:34,600
think mastrator strengths. 
The other big thing with the? 

792
00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:36,320
I wanted some space where I 
could. 

793
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,280
Add up more rules on so one of. 
The the. 

794
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:45,800
Big pieces and and one of the 
design sparks for the. 

795
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,920
Game was thinking. 
About challenge that revolved 

796
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,360
outside of violence. 
Climb process has a pretty 

797
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,280
strong like anti violence stance
on weapons and guns and stuff 

798
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,400
and that's mechanically built in
but with rust wings. 

799
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,680
The thing I wanted to explore 
was exploration. 

800
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:09,040
Thing I want to explore was 
exploration. 

801
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:14,880
OK, but climbing, hiding, 
jumping, moving through a ruined

802
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,440
space. 
A lot of this comes from when I 

803
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:21,080
was a kid, a teenager. 
We would go find, like under a 

804
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:25,360
bridge, or we'd climb 
construction cement pieces. 

805
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,240
And and things. 
And jump around on it and, and 

806
00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:31,480
have fun on it and kind of see 
what was going on in the, the 

807
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:33,840
shadows of, of the, the town I 
lived in. 

808
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,840
So for me to climbing is a 
really challenging thing to do 

809
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:40,960
in role-playing games. 
And so I added some additional 

810
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,720
rules on that. 
Worked pretty well in the system

811
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,680
without bogging it down too much
to make that physical 

812
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,600
exploration of space equally as 
interesting as combat, if not 

813
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,320
more so. 
Yeah. 

814
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,080
You know, we talked about, we 
talked. 

815
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,560
About combat a lot with with 
Mothership and stuff because you

816
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,480
did, you did put in a thing 
about, you know, when you use 

817
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:06,240
violence and things like that 
mechanically making a little bit

818
00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:08,480
different. 
But in the in the end, you know,

819
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:10,640
Mothership is still kind of a 
game that's built a little bit 

820
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:15,840
around like combat is the answer
because we can get a whole thing

821
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:17,440
about like why there's not sneak
and stuff. 

822
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,160
But you know, Mastrator is 
really interesting built on into

823
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:22,520
the odd. 
Like you said, there's no attack

824
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,400
roll that's rolled under. 
There's so much more you can do 

825
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,920
with a little bit less because 
it's more of like a framework 

826
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,920
kind of than like a an extremely
built out system. 

827
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,400
So I can imagine, I mean, you 
can see the million things that 

828
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,080
people have built for and added 
on to it because it really lets 

829
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:41,200
you kind of be a little bit, 
what's the word I'm looking for 

830
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,760
like modular kind of with this 
system. 

831
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:48,200
And, and one thing you said 
really 6 like people on board. 

832
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:54,120
If I, I have and do, and when I 
do intro people in RPGs, it's 

833
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:55,320
mouse Ritter. 
No question. 

834
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,040
There's like two or three games 
in my head that I, I reach for 

835
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,280
depending on kind of like who 
they are in the ages and stuff. 

836
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,680
But in those top three games, 
like #1 almost always is going 

837
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:05,600
to be mouse shutter. 
And not just because it's cool 

838
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,880
and the art is great, but like 
you said, the little, the pieces

839
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,480
you get that go in your 
backpack, but also like the ease

840
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,480
of the system is, is great. 
So branching into a new system 

841
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,200
that can be an all ages game, 
you know, is, I mean, it's a 

842
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:18,920
great choice. 
It's a great system to run with.

843
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:22,240
So, you know, I mean, you're 
gonna have to come back on the 

844
00:48:22,240 --> 00:48:24,040
show and run it for us, you 
know, at some point around. 

845
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:28,200
Yeah, Yeah. 
When when's this coming out? 

846
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:32,280
Like when when is your hope for 
the Kickstarter to drop or do 

847
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,440
you have a set time already? 
March 3rd. 

848
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:38,120
So we got about two weeks. 
We got about two weeks. 

849
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:39,720
That's it. 
So we're gonna have to figure it

850
00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:40,280
out. 
OK. 

851
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,720
And it's gonna run for a month, 
That's correct. 

852
00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:45,480
Yeah. 
Until the 1st Thursday in April,

853
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,800
whatever that is. 
April 2nd, maybe sometime in 

854
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,040
March. 
As soon as this is over, message

855
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,680
me and say, hey, let's set this 
up because I gotta get Hunter on

856
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:56,040
board. 
His schedule hasn't dropped from

857
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,560
March yet, but we gotta get this
played. 

858
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,080
Yeah, because this sounds, I 
mean, this sounds great. 

859
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,200
And like I said, I want to play 
a Ghibbly inspired game that 

860
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,600
feels ghibbly inspired and I 
love me some Outfitters. 

861
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:08,720
So we got to get it on. 
When people pledge for the 

862
00:49:08,720 --> 00:49:10,080
project, the what, what all can 
they get? 

863
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:11,320
We talked about the cards and 
stuff like that. 

864
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,800
But what what all is going to 
come with this is, I know you 

865
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:16,920
said some parts are going to be 
in China again and we're going 

866
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:18,880
to need to worry about that 
stuff, but what's the 

867
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:20,400
expectation of of what we're 
getting? 

868
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:27,080
So it's a starter box set in the
fashion that I do at where it'll

869
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:32,720
be a bunch of stuff in there. 
The the lower level pledge is a 

870
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:36,280
box bundle, the game itself. 
At. 

871
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:41,200
Comes with a rule book, which 
you know makes sense, but there 

872
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:48,040
will be a guide book that goes 
over in detail 20 to 30 

873
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:51,000
different locations within this 
Tower Island setting place. 

874
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:57,520
They'll have the, I think it's 
103 or 108 cards that it's a 

875
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:01,560
combination of character 
creation components, the 

876
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:04,560
portraits, you get to pick your 
own plane, so you'll get a cool 

877
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:09,480
plane, you get a mask, a robotic
mascot animal, but then a bunch 

878
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:12,400
of items and also rumors that 
you can investigate while you're

879
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:14,960
on the island. 
The other big piece is this map 

880
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:16,880
book. 
So it's a spiral bound map book 

881
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,680
with a 8 1/2 by 11 sheet of 
punch board tokens. 

882
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:25,280
And so there's two primary ways 
to play, I guess 3. 

883
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,720
The first is you can use the map
book that's included if you're 

884
00:50:28,720 --> 00:50:32,040
in person, and you can put your 
little pieces down and climb and

885
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:37,720
move across this isometric map 
with climbing and jumping and 

886
00:50:37,720 --> 00:50:40,760
and traversing space that the 
two big challenges that I ran 

887
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:43,000
into as I've I've been play 
testing this for quite a bit of 

888
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:47,200
time is 1 and and just playing 
role-playing games in general. 

889
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:52,040
But is 1 having players all 
understand the space that 

890
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,120
they're discussing? 
If you're saying, Hey, I need to

891
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,720
climb up here or people want to 
know how high is it and how 

892
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,120
close is it to this other thing 
if I want to jump across? 

893
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:03,560
And so there are these isometric
maps that are in this map book. 

894
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:06,960
So each location will have its 
own map that then you can put 

895
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:09,680
these punch board tokens that 
match the portraits that you've 

896
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,200
chosen for your characters on 
and move across and and 

897
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:15,000
different NPC or or threat 
tokens as well. 

898
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:18,480
The other way to play though 
that that was how I did a lot of

899
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:22,280
play testing is the system is 
based around using children's 

900
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:25,520
blocks as terrain. 
And so you can dump a pile of 

901
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:29,880
blocks out and and either build 
it in a pre configured map as 

902
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:35,160
you'll see in in Tower Island, 
or there will be rules for 

903
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,640
procedural generation maps and 
and making your own maps out of 

904
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,440
these children's blocks. 
But it's been a really 

905
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,200
eye-catching table presence to 
have, like this tower built out 

906
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:48,600
of children's blocks that you 
can put together pretty quickly.

907
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,680
You then put these points of 
interest markers. 

908
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:53,880
So we put these little question 
marks all over it. 

909
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:58,240
And so those are things that 
weren't more investigation, 

910
00:51:58,240 --> 00:51:59,880
whether the players choose to or
not. 

911
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,760
If you choose to investigate, 
though, it's going to advance 

912
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,200
the time track, which will 
create further consequences. 

913
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,840
And so the nice thing about 
that, as I've been finding 

914
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:10,360
players don't like flip over 
every token. 

915
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,520
It's, you know, they look 
broadly at the map, they talk 

916
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:15,640
about what's there, they ask the
guide what's there. 

917
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:17,960
And then they might go over to 
this particular spot to 

918
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,720
investigate a little more 
deeply, time increases and then 

919
00:52:20,720 --> 00:52:24,120
they might go to a new location 
and then we'll have some. 

920
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:28,880
I I think it's going to be Owl 
Rodeo, Albear Rodeo support for 

921
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:33,600
online approach to playing, 
which I know is really important

922
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:35,160
and, and how I play a lot of 
games as well. 

923
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:38,440
I mean, it's like the. 
Only way I get to play games 

924
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:39,840
because. 
I don't live near anybody that 

925
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,840
plays games. 
So, you know, the BTT support is

926
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:46,640
is always nice to have. 
But yeah, I mean, looks great. 

927
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,240
You know, just like as I said 
before, all the stuff that you 

928
00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:50,480
do. 
So I'm really excited for it. 

929
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:52,640
Except how many cards do you say
it was? 

930
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,440
It's it's like a full sheet. 
So it's going to be I think 108.

931
00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:58,760
Damn, that's a lot of cards. 
Yeah. 

932
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:03,480
So it's like a full deck poker 
sized cards, which is I feel 

933
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:07,400
nice and are fun to to play 
attribute cards. 

934
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,200
I'm trying to think if there's a
bunch of gear. 

935
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:11,280
I mean, a lot of it's going to 
be like the loot and treasures 

936
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,880
that you find. 
Some of those are, I think the 

937
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,840
other thing I wanted to so you, 
you play as treasure hunters. 

938
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:23,680
But the other sort of Ghibli 
piece around it is sort of. 

939
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:25,280
Questioning like what it means 
to loot. 

940
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:28,840
A place so you might find 
something that like is really 

941
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,560
cool, but like it has a bird's 
nest on it. 

942
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:34,560
Or you find something that's 
really cool that isn't 

943
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:39,160
necessarily like a a giant 
novelty check or like some kind 

944
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:43,240
of weird sculpture, like stuff 
that doesn't necessarily have 

945
00:53:43,240 --> 00:53:45,240
monetary value. 
But you bring this back to your 

946
00:53:45,240 --> 00:53:47,400
clubhouse. 
Each each rustling crew has 

947
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:53,880
their own clubhouse hidden in 
this like over over populated 

948
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:55,760
oil Derrick. 
And so you go back to your 

949
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:59,320
clubhouse and some stuff you 
might just bring back because it

950
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:01,160
looks cool. 
But those are also potentially 

951
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:03,920
that have upgrades when you 
revisit the island at the, the 

952
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:07,120
sort of gameplay loop is that 
you'll be going to this island 

953
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:12,000
several times and then heading 
back and then going back again 

954
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,320
and, and sort of pulling more 
stuff out and, and trying to 

955
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:17,480
solve this broader mystery about
why the islands appeared and why

956
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:18,840
two of your friends have gone 
missing. 

957
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:22,600
Nice. 
Again, we're going to. 

958
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,600
Have to get you on March of the 
short month so I'm going to have

959
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:29,240
to talk to hunter and we got to 
get this figured out but one 

960
00:54:29,240 --> 00:54:32,480
thing that intrigues me is you 
said you have a darker game 

961
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:34,680
brewing. 
No pressure at all but do you 

962
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,240
want to give any hints at all 
about because, you know that's 

963
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:39,800
like my whole thing yeah it was 
like. 

964
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:45,560
So I did just announce it. 
So I did announce this on the 

965
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:47,720
Patreon stuff. 
You're you can read more about 

966
00:54:47,720 --> 00:54:49,040
it, see some of the art and 
stuff. 

967
00:54:50,720 --> 00:54:54,360
The the other game I'm working 
on there. 

968
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,720
There's another Cloud Empress 
expansion that'll sort of be out

969
00:54:56,720 --> 00:55:00,760
next, but called. 
I think it's land. 

970
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:03,480
Of the clouds so we're we're 
going to go up to the clouds 

971
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:08,080
next in cloud Empress. 
They're looking for a new cloud 

972
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:10,960
Empress to replace the old one 
that went missing. 

973
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:14,240
So that's sort of the next sort 
of trilogy of books will be sort

974
00:55:14,240 --> 00:55:18,760
of exploring and playing through
what that all means and seeing 

975
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:20,440
who the emperor is and all that 
kind of stuff. 

976
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:22,880
So that's that's where cloud 
Empress is going over the next 

977
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:27,960
like three to five years. 
The other big project though is 

978
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:33,200
called sky burial. 
Sky burial is a combination of 

979
00:55:33,240 --> 00:55:36,240
Princess Mononoke meets Howl's 
moving castle. 

980
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:43,680
The primary focus around it is 
what if Dragons existed in the 

981
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:48,040
real world? 
Dragons are very overdone in 

982
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:52,880
tabletop role-playing games. 
So the Dragons of Sky Burial are

983
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:56,480
quite unique in that they're 
almost like giant eagles with 

984
00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:01,880
horns, so they look a bit 
different, but they're feathers 

985
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:06,120
have a magical property to them.
So there will be some gameplay 

986
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:10,680
interactions that I haven't 
tested yet, but one player plays

987
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:15,880
as a dying dragon and the other 
players play as people cursed to

988
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:21,240
follow that dying dragon. 
So you'll be shepherding this 

989
00:56:21,240 --> 00:56:24,680
dying dragon to the the mountain
of creation where it wants to 

990
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:28,840
have a sky burial and die so 
that the curse can be broken. 

991
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:32,960
And so the setting for that 
though is, is more Howls Moving 

992
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:39,920
Castle, sort of 1910s to 1920s 
vibe, mid industrial late. 

993
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:41,960
Industrial kind. 
Of period. 

994
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:45,200
So that's the other project that
that is sort of slow going, but 

995
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:46,960
people will be doing the artwork
for that. 

996
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:48,680
Who does the the artwork on 
Cloud Empress? 

997
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:54,120
And that's kind of my slow 
simmer project, I think might 

998
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:55,560
take a. 
Couple years to come out but my 

999
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:57,400
idea. 
Is to sort of slowly put out 

1000
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:01,680
content on the I don't know how 
slow be, but you know, put out a

1001
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:04,400
lot of content on the Patreon 
before going live with a 

1002
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:10,120
crowdfunding campaign or. 
Something like that give. 

1003
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:13,680
It the time it needs to bake, 
Yeah, I mean, that's. 

1004
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:15,960
A That's a great project. 
To be slow simmer on that sounds

1005
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:17,000
awesome. 
And I mean, you already said 

1006
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:20,120
that like, I mean, it's an easy 
thing going up into the clouds. 

1007
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:23,000
You know, you get a little bit 
of a hint of some of that in the

1008
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:25,720
in the early cloud Empress 
stuff, especially when you 

1009
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:28,040
realize why it's called Cloud 
Empress and everything. 

1010
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:30,040
So it's going to be fun to go up
in there. 

1011
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:32,280
And you said what's interesting 
is you said that's going to be 3

1012
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:36,280
to five years, which is how does
that feel as like a designer 

1013
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:40,520
knowing it's going to take you a
year like a couple? 

1014
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:43,080
Years to get it done. 
Then you have art, which always 

1015
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:44,520
takes some time. 
Then you have production, which 

1016
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:46,120
always takes some time. 
Then you have the Kickstarter, 

1017
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:47,680
which always takes some time. 
Then you have a film with that 

1018
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:51,960
always takes some time. 
Like how does that like, how do 

1019
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:55,080
you settle in going all right, 
this is my project for five 

1020
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:57,400
years. 
Like how do you cope with that? 

1021
00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:02,560
How do you feel about that? 
Like what is that like it's? 

1022
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:08,560
They're getting done right, I 
think the big. 

1023
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:12,560
Challenge that I came to and I 
told the story in a couple 

1024
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:15,480
places and maybe I'm one of our 
episodes, but I had this like 

1025
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:21,880
super epic legacy board game 
that I was trying to create with

1026
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:25,200
a board game publisher and so 
I'd written about. 

1027
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:27,520
Like 60,000. 
Words of this choose your own 

1028
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:31,200
adventure in a small town where 
two people go missing and you 

1029
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,600
look for them and and the town 
is unraveling because of this. 

1030
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:37,960
Like you find out one of the 
main characters dads was 

1031
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:40,920
actually an alien the whole time
and he's sort of like losing his

1032
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:43,960
mind to dementia, but he's an 
alien. 

1033
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:46,520
So the whole anyway, this whole 
big thing and I was trying to do

1034
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:50,080
this in this multi episodic 
board game because Pandemic 

1035
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:53,240
legacy, it just came out and I 
was a big pandemic legacy fan 

1036
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:54,960
and I was really excited about 
legacy games. 

1037
00:58:54,960 --> 00:59:00,040
And so I somehow managed to get 
a contract signed with a company

1038
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,800
that's now gone defunct for 
running too many Kickstarters 

1039
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:08,280
they couldn't fulfill. 
But I just spent like 3 to 4 

1040
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:10,960
years working on the same thing 
over and over again. 

1041
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:12,480
I never got to publish any of 
it. 

1042
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:15,400
It wasn't in a place where it 
was ready to be published 

1043
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:18,760
either. 
So I came to tabletop 

1044
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:22,720
role-playing games, one having a
better sense of my strength as a

1045
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:24,880
both a game designer and as a 
writer. 

1046
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:29,560
I knew people responded really 
well to a lot of the 

1047
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:32,720
storytelling that I was doing in
that game system, but I was 

1048
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:37,120
finding that reiterating rules 
was really difficult. 

1049
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:40,240
And I would make changes that 
would send me backwards three 

1050
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,480
steps, and then I'd make another
change that sent me backwards 

1051
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:44,600
another three steps. 
And so I found a lot more 

1052
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:48,760
comfort in using a solid, tried 
and true system like Mouse 

1053
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:52,440
Writer, like Mothership, and 
just tweaking a little bit for 

1054
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:56,040
theme. 
So in in Rust Wings I've added 

1055
00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:59,600
this consequent system where you
can take damage. 

1056
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:04,440
Delay or you can alert the 
enemies to your presence or 

1057
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:06,760
threats to your presence. 
And so it's this little twist on

1058
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:09,560
the system that makes climbing 
interesting in particular. 

1059
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:13,600
And so it creates more varied 
consequences for climbing 

1060
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,040
something. 
So you might drop something out 

1061
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:18,240
of your bag and all of a sudden 
all of the Navy people are 

1062
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:20,960
running towards you right? 
As opposed to just oh, you fall 

1063
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:23,280
down, do you want to try 
climbing again kind of thing. 

1064
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:27,160
So all. 
That's to say. 

1065
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:30,600
Coming to tabletop role-playing 
games, I really wanted to get 

1066
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:36,960
stuff done and so from. 
The beginning I had this sort 

1067
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:39,480
of. 
Idea of Cloud Empress being 

1068
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:42,280
this, you know, we start on the 
land and we go up to the clouds 

1069
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:45,320
and there there's another 
trilogy of books after that. 

1070
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:49,200
The setting books really making 
it this expansive world, but 

1071
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,560
doing it in small parts so that 
I could actually get them done 

1072
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:54,680
and people could play them and I
could get feedback on them and 

1073
01:00:54,680 --> 01:01:02,720
that kind of stuff. 
I think I like challenging 

1074
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:05,040
myself though and and exploring 
new topics. 

1075
01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:09,080
And so this sort of next phase 
of worlds by Watt as a publisher

1076
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:12,480
is trying a couple new IPS 
intermixed with the cloud 

1077
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:14,240
Empress stuff. 
And so one of these is rust 

1078
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:17,840
rings sky barrel at some point I
have got this goofy smaller game

1079
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:22,320
that I want to do at some point.
So that creates this sort of. 

1080
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:30,960
It it's a nice mix because 
sometimes the the now that. 

1081
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:32,920
I have sort of a formula for 
Cloud Empress. 

1082
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:36,520
It can feel restrictive and 
refreshing at different times. 

1083
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:40,280
It could be nice to come back 
and say, hey, I already know how

1084
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:43,440
to write this book. 
Like I already know the tone 

1085
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:46,360
that I'm going for it and I know
how I'm going to lay out on PCs 

1086
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:49,240
and that kind of thing. 
But then also. 

1087
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:51,920
Like oh, I might want to. 
Try something, you know, 

1088
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:57,960
different, like it, people say. 
Oh, well, you know, this, I 

1089
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:01,360
don't feel like this rule system
totally matches the vibe or I 

1090
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:03,720
don't know, stuff like that. 
And it, and I just have to be 

1091
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:05,600
like, well, that's what we did 
at the time, you know, I don't 

1092
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:11,840
know, like I, I so the yeah, I 
don't know. 

1093
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:16,960
I mean, I think it, it's nice 
knowing where I'm going. 

1094
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:23,040
I think one of the, the, as an 
artist or creative, there has 

1095
01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:25,480
been in my life this pervasive 
fear that like, that was the 

1096
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:28,520
last good idea I ever had. 
Like, Oh my God, like that's it,

1097
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:33,640
or what am I going to do next? 
And so having some of that built

1098
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:37,040
out a little bit in my head 
means that I can start 

1099
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:40,680
commissioning artwork too. 
And so like, I've bought. 

1100
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:45,240
Like. 35 pieces of world 
building art for sky burial, 

1101
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:48,040
rust wings. 
All of the rule book arts 

1102
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:50,520
complete. 
We have like a decent amount of 

1103
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:52,840
the cards complete. 
So that's the other piece with 

1104
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:55,760
timeline. 
I found that artwork is the big,

1105
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,600
the, the critical path if you 
look in project management is, 

1106
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:02,880
is artwork. 
Because if you use a smaller 

1107
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:05,880
team, which I do, you know, if 
you think, oh, A-Team can get 

1108
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:09,880
maybe 4 pieces of art done, 5 
pieces of art done a month, 

1109
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:13,240
maybe they can do more, but 
that's really busy. 

1110
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:14,600
Artists, you know, I don't know 
so. 

1111
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:18,240
That's the like, OK, well that's
50 pieces a year, but if you 

1112
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:20,440
have a game that needs 100 
pieces, right, that's two years 

1113
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:22,880
of art. 
So that's been the. 

1114
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:27,520
The big thing for me is. 
Trying to get the art started, 

1115
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:30,800
maybe even before I fully, you 
know, know what's going on or or

1116
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:33,360
write to the art sometimes now 
too has been interesting. 

1117
01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:37,160
So I'm sort of there's like this
clown pirate faction in the new 

1118
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:41,280
cloud Empress books where the 
emperor has sort of deemed these

1119
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:45,880
people this one Cloud city like,
oh, they're all fools and idiots

1120
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:48,760
and and like, I don't take you 
seriously. 

1121
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:53,800
And so they sort of like. 
Taking that out as a badge of. 

1122
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:58,200
Honor and they all dress as like
crazy clown pirates now but like

1123
01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:00,920
I don't have all of that fully 
explored yet but I'm like 

1124
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:06,280
commissioning cloud or cloud sky
pirate clown artwork which is 

1125
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:08,840
looking cool but some of that 
I'm going to write to now which 

1126
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:14,280
is also kind of fun yeah I mean 
once you can get I mean. 

1127
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:17,440
How many books have have? 
Now come out for for Cloud 

1128
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:22,120
Empress, it's it's I. 
Would say 3. 

1129
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:28,320
Setting books and then there's 
2. 

1130
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:31,200
Like in world? 
Scenes and then the two almanacs

1131
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:36,600
and then two pamphlets. 
So a lot so a lot So like you're

1132
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:41,440
you've you're deep in the world.
You are not only that, but also 

1133
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:45,040
like, I assume in kind of a 
groove with the production, you 

1134
01:04:45,040 --> 01:04:48,640
know, like you have a, you know,
a lot of the stuff that you do, 

1135
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:52,240
like the covers are all roughly 
like they're, they're themed and

1136
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:54,000
stuff. 
So you kind of are in this 

1137
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:57,480
groove. 
It's must feel kind of neat to 

1138
01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:01,480
kind of get into that state 
where you do a thing that can 

1139
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:03,760
inspire the thing to do the 
thing that inspires the thing. 

1140
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:07,760
So like, because you're, you're 
kind of in, in in it, you know, 

1141
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:10,320
and the fact that you can say, 
like, I had this idea, so I make

1142
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:12,240
some art. 
The art inspires me to do more 

1143
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:17,840
idea and it can all kind of stay
within the the same direction. 

1144
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:20,680
Is is really neat. 
And it has to feel pretty cool 

1145
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:23,240
to to be able to do that. 
You're just kind of always 

1146
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:25,720
driving forward with it. 
Yeah. 

1147
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:30,280
And it's it's, I know. 
About how long it takes to make 

1148
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:35,240
a book. 
Now, and I know like I go to a 

1149
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:36,440
coffee. 
Shop at like 4. 

1150
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:38,600
AM and I write, you know, like 
there's certain things I've done

1151
01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:42,360
now several times to, to get the
writing done and I have that 

1152
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:48,360
tone I can tap and do so yeah, 
it's it's it's, it's exciting, 

1153
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:56,480
but also wanting to explore like
new rule sets and new, new 

1154
01:05:56,640 --> 01:06:02,280
universes and, and it'll be. 
Interesting too I I know. 

1155
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:05,400
Like. 
What? 

1156
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:08,840
What does my current audience? 
Find appealing versus like can I

1157
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:11,640
one of the things can I bring 
new people in right who might 

1158
01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:14,240
not be interested in Cloud 
Empress? 

1159
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:18,520
Will another you know the IP 
attract them more right? 

1160
01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:22,640
Is wrestling's going to bring in
a new set of people who can 

1161
01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:25,320
discover Cloudipress? 
One of the other things I think 

1162
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:28,160
about which maybe you have an 
opinion on. 

1163
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:31,600
I'm guessing you do, but the 
other thing is I I get worried 

1164
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:36,240
about. 
At what point does someone look 

1165
01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:37,640
at their shelf and? 
Say, you know, I have enough 

1166
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:40,200
Cloudipress books. 
You know, I haven't I've I've I 

1167
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:41,640
still have two that I haven't 
played. 

1168
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:46,480
I guess I'm a fear motivated 
person, but I think the other 

1169
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:49,360
piece is just creating more 
pillars for this company and 

1170
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:56,480
building. 
And so if I read this Sling the 

1171
01:06:56,480 --> 01:07:00,560
Dragon book on Dungeons and 
Dragons and it's like the rule 

1172
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:02,160
book sells. 
Well, and then everything. 

1173
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:05,280
Can have. 
At least in D&D history, it's 

1174
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:09,360
like some of these things have 
diminishing returns as you go 

1175
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:11,800
through the life cycle of a 
product and then you do a new 

1176
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:14,640
addition and it gets people 
excited and you improve it in 

1177
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:18,560
those kinds of things. 
But I think just diversifying my

1178
01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:21,240
like overall portfolio is 
something I'm interested in both

1179
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:25,520
creatively as as enriching, 
because then I can come back to 

1180
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:26,880
Cloud Empress and be like, oh, 
thank God. 

1181
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:33,200
Like I'm so excited to write in 
this world because I you know, 

1182
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:35,240
there's this the cloud Empress 
or self cloud. 

1183
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:38,440
Like there's this whole thing 
that she's going through that 

1184
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:43,040
that people want to see the 
she's sort of a recurring 

1185
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:44,760
character that pops into these 
games. 

1186
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:48,840
And so she's got things to do in
places to be in that kind of 

1187
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:50,520
stuff that I want to continue to
explore. 

1188
01:07:50,520 --> 01:07:55,360
But I think from the business 
side, it makes sense to have a 

1189
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:57,160
couple different IPS, although I
don't. 

1190
01:07:57,160 --> 01:07:59,360
Yeah, I'm that's just my 
suspicion. 

1191
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:02,840
I know Tuesday night games is 
is. 

1192
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:06,360
Going to be launching. 
Like Father Fog, we don't know a

1193
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:08,160
lot about that yet. 
Mothership assumed it. 

1194
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:10,320
I'm really well do really well 
from Dungeons and Dragons. 

1195
01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:13,800
I guess is they've sort of 
landed on that being a single 

1196
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:18,840
world as opposed to the 90s and 
2000s where they had a bunch of 

1197
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:21,479
like splinter worlds, right. 
Yeah. 

1198
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:26,840
Well, I mean, Dungeons and 
Dragons is, I mean, 5E Dungeons 

1199
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:29,880
and Dragons is its own thing. 
I mean, it's not even part of 

1200
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:31,600
the TTRPG industry. 
It is. 

1201
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:36,240
It is an industry unto itself. 
And it's, but the thing about, 

1202
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:38,439
yes, I have thoughts on 
everything you've said and 

1203
01:08:38,439 --> 01:08:40,279
opinions of course, because I 
have an opinion on everything. 

1204
01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:43,319
But the thing about D&D is like 
most of their supplement books 

1205
01:08:43,319 --> 01:08:45,200
are garbage. 
But you know what the supplement

1206
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:48,399
books do? 
They make people buy the core. 

1207
01:08:48,399 --> 01:08:50,439
Book which is the number. 
One selling book all the time no

1208
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:51,920
matter what. 
So like, they don't really care 

1209
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:56,520
if they put out a good adventure
if the return that they're going

1210
01:08:56,520 --> 01:08:58,840
to get from people buying the 
core books so they can play the 

1211
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:01,680
adventure is more than it cost 
to put the adventure out. 

1212
01:09:01,680 --> 01:09:03,279
It doesn't matter if the 
adventure sucks, you know what I

1213
01:09:03,279 --> 01:09:05,760
mean? 
And you can tell in the quality 

1214
01:09:05,760 --> 01:09:08,840
of everything they put out from 
like 2014 to 2024. 

1215
01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:13,359
It very quickly plateaued off 
after the first couple. 

1216
01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:17,160
But you know, I mean, there's 
there's a reason bands have side

1217
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:19,319
projects, you know what I mean? 
There's a reason that a perfect 

1218
01:09:19,319 --> 01:09:21,399
circle exists. 
You know, Tool is still Tool, 

1219
01:09:21,399 --> 01:09:23,600
but you know, Maynard wanted to 
do something a little bit 

1220
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:26,439
different and it didn't take 
anything away from Tool. 

1221
01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:28,240
And perfect circle is still cool
too. 

1222
01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:29,880
And there's people that are 
perfect circle fans and aren't 

1223
01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:31,520
Tool fans and people that are 
Tool fans and aren't perfect 

1224
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:34,560
circle fans. 
So there's no there's nothing 

1225
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:36,840
that says you can't do other 
stuff that you're excited about 

1226
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:39,240
and being able to take a break 
and refresh and do something 

1227
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:43,160
different in another system can 
only benefit, you know, the 

1228
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:46,920
system that you're, you know, 
the your primary, you know, kind

1229
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:51,359
of thing of worlds by Watt is 
bringing in new people, bringing

1230
01:09:51,359 --> 01:09:53,600
in new life, getting new 
inspirations, getting new ideas.

1231
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:55,160
There's not. 
And and like you said, you know,

1232
01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:58,400
early on on our conversation, 
you got to diversify that liquid

1233
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:02,240
cash, you know, because if if 
any one thing falls off and and 

1234
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:04,640
that's the only don't have a 
single point of failure. 

1235
01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:07,600
You know, if one game suddenly, 
you know how many people 

1236
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:10,560
literally were like my life is 
over when the OGL what happened 

1237
01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:12,840
with 5 E because they had just 
that one thing. 

1238
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:17,760
And if that one document that is
still kind of gets gets taken 

1239
01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:20,440
away their entire life, you know
is down the drain. 

1240
01:10:20,440 --> 01:10:23,320
So who I mean it's not going to 
happen. 

1241
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:25,560
But what if at one point they're
like all right, Tuesday night 

1242
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:28,520
game says no more panic engine 
stuff you're done. 

1243
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:30,400
What happens to the company 
right. 

1244
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:32,760
So there's no reason not to jump
into a bunch of different stuff,

1245
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:36,160
not just from a business 
perspective, Because if, if 

1246
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:39,760
you're if, if everything you do 
with teach RPGs is first, you're

1247
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:42,920
a capitalist lens, You're in my 
opinion, like already failing. 

1248
01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:50,360
But if you know you're a 
creative and capitalism has 

1249
01:10:50,360 --> 01:10:52,560
happening, that's completely 
different. 

1250
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:54,760
Like if you were doing something
because it's fun and creative 

1251
01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:57,280
and interesting and you want to 
do something different, but then

1252
01:10:57,280 --> 01:11:00,240
also need to make money for your
company, That's in my opinion, 

1253
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:03,640
like the correct way to get to 
the capitalism, you know, so 

1254
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:06,040
there's no reason not to jump 
into into mouth shredder, 

1255
01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:09,160
especially because you're like 
rush ring sounds cool as shit. 

1256
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:12,320
So you know, you're not just, 
you know, putting out, you know,

1257
01:11:12,320 --> 01:11:16,080
the the the thousands new hack 
of something right, like you're 

1258
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:19,040
doing your take on it, because 
this feels distinctly you. 

1259
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:23,360
Anyone that has read Cladiprous 
and then reads or hears a pitch 

1260
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:25,400
for wrestlings is going to go, 
Oh, that absolutely sounds like 

1261
01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:27,880
what you know, that sounds like 
the themes that we've seen some 

1262
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:30,280
other things and it's cool to 
explore them in a different way.

1263
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:33,480
What was the first thing that 
you said that I probably have an

1264
01:11:33,480 --> 01:11:38,640
opinion on? 
Diminishing returns of like. 

1265
01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:42,640
Oh, yeah. 
No, no. 

1266
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:45,960
So the Cloudypress on your 
shelf. 

1267
01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:46,880
On the shelf? 
Yeah. 

1268
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:47,920
Too many books. 
Here's the thing. 

1269
01:11:47,960 --> 01:11:49,320
Here's the thing. 
Here's the thing. 

1270
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:51,440
I've read. 
You may be an outlier on this 

1271
01:11:51,440 --> 01:11:53,600
one, though. 
I've read most of everything on 

1272
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:54,880
my shelf. 
Have I played most of it? 

1273
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:56,160
No. 
Have I played a lot of it? 

1274
01:11:56,160 --> 01:11:59,280
Yes. 
I have played dozens and dozens 

1275
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:01,520
of games. 
I've read hundreds and hundreds 

1276
01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:04,920
of games. 
The thing about especially the 

1277
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:07,400
setting books and stuff you're 
putting out is it's great to get

1278
01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:09,160
it to the table. 
Have I been able to get 

1279
01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:11,440
everything from Platypus to the 
table? 

1280
01:12:11,440 --> 01:12:12,840
No. 
Will I ever be able to get 

1281
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:14,600
everything you put out? 
No. 

1282
01:12:14,760 --> 01:12:18,080
Will I be able to read all of it
and have fun stories in my head 

1283
01:12:18,080 --> 01:12:19,720
and see the directions you're 
going? 

1284
01:12:19,720 --> 01:12:21,040
Yes. 
I don't see really any 

1285
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:25,840
difference between that and 
like, who's going to like when 

1286
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:27,280
Joe Abercrombie? 
Puts that out of the book. 

1287
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:29,200
I'm like. 
I have enough novels on my I 

1288
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:30,560
don't need the next book in the 
series. 

1289
01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:32,240
No one's ever going to say that,
you know what I mean? 

1290
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:34,960
Like, it's really cool. 
And the way that you're putting 

1291
01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:39,400
out the books as here's what's 
happening here, and then there's

1292
01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:43,760
a movement in time in the way 
that you put out the setting 

1293
01:12:43,800 --> 01:12:44,560
books. 
Yeah. 

1294
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:48,000
It's not just like, yeah, here's
the one snapshot and we're just 

1295
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:49,640
giving you all the different 
views. 

1296
01:12:49,640 --> 01:12:53,120
There is a story even within the
way the setting is progressing, 

1297
01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:55,880
where even if not everyone's 
able to get everything to the 

1298
01:12:55,880 --> 01:12:58,160
table, it's still exciting to 
read and see advancement of the 

1299
01:12:58,160 --> 01:13:00,200
story and the adventures you 
could do. 

1300
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:01,840
And like, even just prepping 
stuff is fun. 

1301
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:04,480
So I don't think anyone's really
going to be like, I have enough 

1302
01:13:04,480 --> 01:13:06,600
cladipress. 
Like, you know, it's not just 

1303
01:13:06,600 --> 01:13:09,240
like, here's another system, 
that and another system, another

1304
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:10,920
system. 
It's like, it's more setting. 

1305
01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:13,920
And even if you skip setting 
book 1, setting book 2, setting 

1306
01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:17,360
book 3, and then dead stuff 
comes up and you're like, all 

1307
01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:18,560
right, well, that's the one I'm 
going to happen. 

1308
01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:20,080
Yeah, that's the one for me. 
Yeah. 

1309
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:22,160
That's The thing is I don't 
think people are going to get 

1310
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:25,440
tired of it because the way that
you're writing it specifically. 

1311
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:27,440
So I wouldn't worry. 
I wouldn't worry about that at 

1312
01:13:27,440 --> 01:13:28,920
all. 
Well, and that's a good point. 

1313
01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:30,880
We did that. 
You know, I'd encourage folks to

1314
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:35,000
go back and watch the the 
writing seminar we did a year 

1315
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:38,120
ago. 
But one of the approaches that I

1316
01:13:38,120 --> 01:13:41,240
take with Cloud Empress less so 
with Rest Wings just because it 

1317
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:45,840
really is built on like ease of 
play but for sky burial as. 

1318
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:48,720
Well, as I'm conceptualizing. 
Is this like literary component 

1319
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:54,160
to the adventures and the the 
worlds that I put together is? 

1320
01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:58,160
I exist in that same. 
Framework that you're talking. 

1321
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:00,720
About where I have a pile of 
books on my shelf and I play 

1322
01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:04,360
most of my, I have to play a lot
of my own stuff just to like get

1323
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:06,400
it to be at the quality that I 
want it to be. 

1324
01:14:06,400 --> 01:14:09,280
And so I I do get to hop into 
some other games and some other 

1325
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:11,800
systems, but a lot of it is just
me playing my own stuff. 

1326
01:14:12,920 --> 01:14:14,160
But I love reading it. 
Right. 

1327
01:14:14,160 --> 01:14:16,080
And so I think that's. 
The other piece too, is just 

1328
01:14:18,520 --> 01:14:25,160
balancing the, you know, the UX 
piece of, of rules and books and

1329
01:14:25,160 --> 01:14:28,880
manuals with the fact that like 
we may not ever need it for that

1330
01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:33,240
function at the the imagination 
and the enjoyment of reading is,

1331
01:14:33,240 --> 01:14:41,680
is also integral to a lot of 
people how they how they play, I

1332
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:43,360
guess. 
Experience role-playing. 

1333
01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:47,160
Games, I mean, that's I mean, at
the end of the day, like I've, I

1334
01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:51,080
will always have read, you know,
exponentially more systems than 

1335
01:14:51,080 --> 01:14:53,720
I'll ever get to play. 
But I I'm a systems guy. 

1336
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:56,160
I love reading systems. 
Like I'll buy a book just 

1337
01:14:56,160 --> 01:14:58,920
because the system sounds cool 
and be like, all right, it was 

1338
01:14:58,920 --> 01:15:00,440
pretty cool. 
But like that one rule, that's 

1339
01:15:00,440 --> 01:15:02,480
the one that got me, you know, 
and that's the enjoyment. 

1340
01:15:02,480 --> 01:15:04,600
I get a lot of it. 
You know, I read more than I'm 

1341
01:15:04,600 --> 01:15:06,600
able to play. 
I mean, even with the show and 

1342
01:15:06,600 --> 01:15:09,840
everything, I can't even I think
the last time I got to play a 

1343
01:15:09,840 --> 01:15:11,840
game was an AP on the show, and 
the time before that was 

1344
01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:13,800
probably an AP on the show. 
You know, we've been to a lot 

1345
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:16,960
more skirmish in person. 
It takes less people. 

1346
01:15:17,040 --> 01:15:19,160
It's just me and one other 
person that can usually play the

1347
01:15:19,160 --> 01:15:21,320
game. 
Getting four people to sit down 

1348
01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:22,920
and play teach RBG is a lot 
different. 

1349
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:25,160
But like you said, like people 
enjoy games in a lot of 

1350
01:15:25,160 --> 01:15:27,280
different ways and especially 
people in the community that 

1351
01:15:27,280 --> 01:15:29,760
we're in. 
And you know, a lot of people 

1352
01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:31,880
that I interact with are 
creators and stuff like that. 

1353
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:34,720
People like to read other 
people's stuff and people like 

1354
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:37,440
systems and people like games 
and people like reading 

1355
01:15:37,640 --> 01:15:41,000
something that's teach RBG based
because they enjoy this space, 

1356
01:15:41,000 --> 01:15:44,840
you know, and seeing, you know, 
if they use bullet points or, or

1357
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:47,280
the way that the layout works in
the system and stuff like that. 

1358
01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:50,320
So, you know, like you said, 
there's a a lot of ways people 

1359
01:15:50,320 --> 01:15:54,080
couldn't enjoy it. 
And the only target, the target 

1360
01:15:54,080 --> 01:15:57,880
audience isn't always just going
to be the player or the GM for 

1361
01:15:57,880 --> 01:16:00,600
the TTRBG stuff that people are 
putting out for the game, stuff 

1362
01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:02,880
that people are putting out. 
Well, it's interesting too to 

1363
01:16:02,880 --> 01:16:08,040
think about this like I want to 
say like introvert, extrovert, 

1364
01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:14,960
but just like. 
Being alone versus being with 

1365
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:15,680
people. 
Right. 

1366
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:19,840
I mean, we think about, I think 
about tabletop role-playing 

1367
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:21,600
games is this. 
I mean, obviously there's solo 

1368
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:23,120
games, right? 
And I have a solo module for 

1369
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:24,200
cloud and person, that kind of 
stuff. 

1370
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:28,000
But the quintessential DND 
experience that we see is like 5

1371
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:30,280
people around and we got the 
board and all this kind of stuff

1372
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:35,800
and it's really playing tabletop
role-playing games is really 

1373
01:16:35,800 --> 01:16:38,080
tiring for me. 
I mean, I really love it, but it

1374
01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:42,400
is like a huge energy investment
in and during and then out. 

1375
01:16:42,400 --> 01:16:47,800
It's like, So I think just 
that's just a part of my. 

1376
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:50,040
Experience with role-playing. 
Games is that it takes a lot of 

1377
01:16:50,040 --> 01:16:54,160
energy and so thinking about the
the books thing as as a refresh 

1378
01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:59,360
and a way to have AI don't know 
that's something that vitalize 

1379
01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:01,320
revitalizes me and gives me 
energy. 

1380
01:17:02,040 --> 01:17:04,160
Playing games does too. 
And normally I, you know, when I

1381
01:17:04,160 --> 01:17:09,160
especially I run a lot of 
sessions as other GMs I know say

1382
01:17:09,160 --> 01:17:11,640
it's like I'm like, Oh my God, 
why did I say I was going to do 

1383
01:17:11,640 --> 01:17:14,480
this? 
And this is like this doom that 

1384
01:17:14,480 --> 01:17:17,880
I feel and then I am like, I, I 
am having fun and then I come 

1385
01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:19,920
home and I'm like, I had the 
best time. 

1386
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:21,920
I want to do it again. 
You know, all this kind of 

1387
01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:23,800
thing. 
But just thinking about how we 

1388
01:17:23,840 --> 01:17:26,240
we use our energy as it relates 
to the hobby is, is pretty 

1389
01:17:26,240 --> 01:17:28,240
interesting too. 
Yeah. 

1390
01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:30,840
Yeah, I mean like again, I will 
I. 

1391
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:33,200
Will read a lot more than Cloud 
Empress than I'll ever get to 

1392
01:17:33,200 --> 01:17:35,560
play and I've been very much 
enjoying reading it. 

1393
01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:37,960
So keep making it and I'll keep 
reading it and trying to play 

1394
01:17:37,960 --> 01:17:39,280
it. 
I think that's where that's 

1395
01:17:39,280 --> 01:17:43,640
where I'm going to fall on it. 
But what you're going to be 

1396
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:45,560
coming back on the show within 
the next month. 

1397
01:17:46,120 --> 01:17:48,720
Let's do it ish so we can play 
some Rust wings. 

1398
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:51,000
I'm a hit hunter up. 
I already messaged him yesterday

1399
01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:52,360
because I got to schedule 
something else with him. 

1400
01:17:52,360 --> 01:17:55,360
So I'm going to tell him to add 
it to the schedule, but until 

1401
01:17:55,360 --> 01:17:59,680
then I'll make sure that the 
link to the pre pages, it's the 

1402
01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:04,960
Internet, you know where things 
are so that people can back save

1403
01:18:04,960 --> 01:18:07,120
the the the Kickstarter for Rust
wings. 

1404
01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:09,760
But where else can people find 
your stuff? 

1405
01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:11,280
Where can people find Cloud 
Empress? 

1406
01:18:11,280 --> 01:18:12,520
Where can people find Worlds by 
Watt? 

1407
01:18:12,520 --> 01:18:14,200
Where can people find you? 
Yeah. 

1408
01:18:14,200 --> 01:18:16,800
So Cloud Empress, you can go to 
cloudempress.com. 

1409
01:18:17,640 --> 01:18:20,640
That is a link to my newsletter.
But my newsletter is right now 

1410
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:24,280
Worlds by Watt at Sub Stack and 
then I am Worlds by Watt at Blue

1411
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:27,200
Sky and Worlds by Watt on 
Patreon now. 

1412
01:18:27,200 --> 01:18:32,440
So the newsletter is probably 
the the best way to hear about 

1413
01:18:32,440 --> 01:18:35,640
everything else that's going on.
But encourage folks if they are 

1414
01:18:35,640 --> 01:18:39,000
interested in the Rest Wings 
campaign to take a look. 

1415
01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:42,400
I'm doing like an early bird 
thing so you get a free grumpy 

1416
01:18:42,400 --> 01:18:45,200
frog portrait. 
It's like this mean looking frog

1417
01:18:45,200 --> 01:18:47,400
with a prosthetic arm holding a 
cup of tea. 

1418
01:18:48,360 --> 01:18:51,080
So if you back in the first 48 
hours, you get a free little 

1419
01:18:51,360 --> 01:18:54,000
extra thank you because of how 
important that time period is 

1420
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:56,360
for the the crowdfunding 
process. 

1421
01:18:57,880 --> 01:18:59,640
They. 
They look grumpy. 

1422
01:18:59,920 --> 01:19:02,560
So. 
Yeah, so cool. 

1423
01:19:02,720 --> 01:19:05,480
So what always a pleasure to 
have you on the show. 

1424
01:19:05,720 --> 01:19:08,040
You're going to come back and 
this is not going to be the last

1425
01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:11,040
time, I think this year, even 
with rustling stuff coming on. 

1426
01:19:11,040 --> 01:19:13,440
So thank you so much. 
Really appreciate it. 

1427
01:19:13,440 --> 01:19:14,640
And like I said, always a 
pleasure. 

1428
01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:15,840
Awesome. 
Yeah. 

1429
01:19:15,840 --> 01:19:18,920
Thanks so much for having me. 
Yeah, that's it for today. 

1430
01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:22,120
We will see all of you later and
you will see Watts soon again. 

1431
01:19:22,120 --> 01:19:23,200
Bye everybody.