1 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,240 Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll podcast. 2 00:00:17,240 --> 00:00:20,240 My Name Is Ryan. And I saw Buddha on the road and 3 00:00:20,240 --> 00:00:23,480 I killed him. And with us today we have a 4 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,400 special guest that is James Pianca of Empty Mountain Nothing 5 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:27,800 Can Die. How you doing today, James? 6 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,000 I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me. 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:31,040 Yeah. Thanks for coming on. 8 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,880 Absolutely, yeah. So this is as we always do, we 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:36,720 talk for like 20 minutes before the show starts. 10 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,400 We've had great conversation. I'm happy to repeat here, but 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,000 for those that weren't in that and might not know James Bianca 12 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,880 or Empty Mountain, nothing and die Who Who the heck are you, 13 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:48,560 James? Hey, thank you. 14 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,200 Yeah. So I'm a game developer. 15 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,920 I've been in the video game industry for about 10 years now. 16 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,640 I started in Tabletop. First gig in the field was 17 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,040 writing card names and flavor texts for Magic the Gathering. 18 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:02,760 You know, I got into the field to tell stories right and in 19 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:04,400 this exciting interactive context. 20 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:06,920 And I went to my first Game Developers Conference, learned 21 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,520 very quickly that narrative design, this really wonderful 22 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,400 new subfield, this combination of game design and game writing 23 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,160 was really where I wanted to be if I wanted to tell stories in a 24 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:21,080 way that was particularly effective in this medium using 25 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,200 its new tool set. But then you go out into the 26 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:27,600 industry and narrative design chairs tend to really just 27 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,120 secretly be screen writing roles with more Funko pops on your 28 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,240 desk. And so I learned also somewhat 29 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:38,440 quickly that if I wanted to really, you know, cash the check 30 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,600 that the Narrative Design discipline was offering that I 31 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:43,000 had to just go be a real game designer. 32 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,560 So I'm about 5 or six years into that path now and I'm back now 33 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,280 in Tabletop because it just hasn't really been that artful 34 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,000 in in video games. You know And something I I say 35 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,080 on the blog post around like the the raison d'etre hello hello 36 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,440 world post on the site was like, you know it's been like 10 years 37 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,080 and I haven't really made a ton of what's in my heart because 38 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:04,360 that's not that's not really the job. 39 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:06,520 Like that's not, that's not the nature of employment. 40 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,120 You know you you go out and you make other people's passion 41 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,160 projects and they pay you and that's OK. 42 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,080 It's that's, you know, we've student loans and you can like 43 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:18,320 go be an adult, but at a certain point I'm just kind of dying 44 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:19,640 inside a little bit. I haven't really. 45 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,320 I really need to go out and and make the stuff that I would be 46 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,840 happy to see on my tombstone for instance. 47 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:28,720 Hell yeah. That's very cool. 48 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,280 And you have a project out right now on Zing Quest at Shrines. 49 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,400 But but before we get to shrines, you you've already or 50 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:37,280 Empty Mountain. Nothing. 51 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:38,760 First of all, OK, let's start with Empty Mountain. 52 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,680 Nothing can die. Yeah, tell us about Empty 53 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:42,360 Mountain. Nothing can die. 54 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:44,520 Sure. Well, it seems like everybody in 55 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,520 this scene needs to make their own little press, right? 56 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,800 So Empty Mountain Nothing Can Die. 57 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,920 Or Empty Mountain Shorthand, you know, is a very small indie 58 00:02:55,920 --> 00:02:57,680 micro press. Right now it's just me and the 59 00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,880 people who agreed to collaborate with me. 60 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,000 I hope to make it expand and and have it grow. 61 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,880 I'm still sort of kind of navigating the various schools 62 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:12,920 of thought and philosophies within the tabletop scene, and 63 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,920 I'm finding myself right now very, very likely in a sort of 64 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,120 NSR type angle, you know, new school Renaissance. 65 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,800 I really appreciate a lot of what the OSR is doing in terms 66 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:28,120 of its emphasis on really minimalist rule sets that enable 67 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,440 play as this, like really sacred activity that human beings do at 68 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,760 tables. But then also just like getting 69 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:38,320 out of the way, you know, I found like, you know, we've all 70 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:43,280 been playing D&D forever. And you know, at a certain point 71 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:47,080 you realize that the system, as Matt Colville said in recent 72 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,280 video, it doesn't really like do anything like it. 73 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:51,840 It gets you to the table, it gets you rolling dice, gets you 74 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,040 having conversations. But systemically it's not 75 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:58,120 actually encouraging or facilitating any particular 76 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:04,280 themes or types of experiences. And then Morkborg came out, you 77 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,760 know, and I I remember, I remember reading Morkborg and 78 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:13,120 being absolutely fucking floored at just like some of the 79 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,240 audacity. And it kind of revealed to me it 80 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,880 was like lifting a rock where I was like, I've been playing 81 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,760 tabletop games all my life. I've been deviating from 5th 82 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,800 edition in my own games forever. Because it's bad. 83 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,040 And I mean, it's good, right? You know it's good, but like, 84 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,360 there are parts of it, no. No, that's bad. 85 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:33,000 You can say, OK, you're good. OK, great. 86 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:34,160 Thank you. Yeah. 87 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:35,920 I don't want to alienate any listeners, you know, we've all 88 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:37,640 played a lot of D&D, but I do think if. 89 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:39,320 Anyone actually listens to this show. 90 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:41,720 Trust me, they have been alienated long ago. 91 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,000 Right. We all owe it a lot, let's say, 92 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,160 you know? But but turns out there's been 93 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:51,200 like 40 years of people identifying its problems and 94 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,000 stepping it beyond them in their own designs. 95 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,880 And so Morkboard really just revealed to me the existence of 96 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:01,160 this, like, churning sea of interesting design ideas. 97 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:02,680 And I was like, oh, shit, OK, cool. 98 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,960 So like this, that's, that's where that's where this needs to 99 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:07,080 happen. That's where this needs to be 100 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:08,480 done. So Empty Mountain is, you know, 101 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,000 it's it's probably going to have a kind of an art house, art 102 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:13,600 house vibe, you know? I love that. 103 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:15,480 Well, thank you. Yeah, I was listening. 104 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,080 I listened to your your episode with games Omnivorous and I feel 105 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,240 a lot of aesthetic and sort of philosophical kinship with them. 106 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:23,920 I think they're doing really awesome work. 107 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,400 I really like designers like Everest Pipkin. 108 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,320 I think they're doing really also really interesting 109 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,800 theoretical work and and so you know, I I can't promise where 110 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,440 the what the press will put out what the nature of the work will 111 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,480 be over time. I can only say that right now 112 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:47,240 I'm interested in releasing really minimalist, minimalist, 113 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,640 narrative driven systems that spotlight what the human brain 114 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:53,560 does naturally. You know, I think, I think 115 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:55,960 tabletop role-playing games as opposed to something like video 116 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,520 games are are these these stages, these venues for human 117 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,920 creativity and everything like systems and and art and lore. 118 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,320 These are all just set dressing to help us perform in the 119 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,720 moment. And so I'm interested in a lot 120 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,960 of productive design and kind of pairing away the chaff that that 121 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,560 you know like asking AGM to pour through pages and pages of lore 122 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:24,360 so that they can internalize it and then spontaneously and and 123 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:30,640 like sincerely kind of deploy that the all that nuance in the 124 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:32,160 moment. I think that's a lot to ask. 125 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,320 And it it's also not really the right thing to ask. 126 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:39,800 Like like people run games. You know for many reasons. 127 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,120 But the the one that I find most interesting, the one that is for 128 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,440 me is to be creative and to and to to actually make those 129 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:50,320 creative decisions myself and to and to to render this world for 130 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:52,200 players. And I think that a lot of the 131 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,120 design writing in spaces like the OSR and the NSR is really 132 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:01,360 attractive because it doesn't. As Jared Sinclair of of SPEAR, 133 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,960 which says in one of his essays, it does not chew your food for 134 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:09,200 you. My God, could we have a 10 hour 135 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,200 conversation about? Everything that you just said, I 136 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:13,800 had to put a really big pin in that one. 137 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:15,600 Yeah, 'cause that's that's just the model, it doesn't end. 138 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:16,720 No. Yeah. 139 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:18,360 No. Trust me, we've had many of 140 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,560 those same brief things here. So I don't write things down. 141 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,840 And I wrote down like half a a a thing already about this to to 142 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:27,880 start. I guess as soon as you started 143 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:32,440 talking about Empty Mountain, my mind immediately went two games. 144 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,120 I'm nervous and I and then you immediately said it does feel 145 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,480 like your goals for it really align with a lot of stuff that 146 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,800 Geo is doing. Also Geo like games, fantastic 147 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:46,760 people, fantastic stuff. If you don't know them, please 148 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:51,400 go check them out. But it's interesting that you 149 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,520 specifically called out Mark Board cuz I feel like that kind 150 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,280 of lifting the rock and seeing something else is something that 151 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,760 a lot of people in this space had a similar kind of it's. 152 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:06,400 The Allegory of The Cave. Yeah, people, people really 153 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,640 realize that there's more that you can do with games with not 154 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,080 only with layout, with design, with rule sets, with everything 155 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,320 for it. And it was just such a great 156 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:19,080 game in the way that they hit all of those things and opened 157 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:20,280 up all of those doors for people. 158 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:25,000 It's really interesting and and gosh, I'm, I'm just going to 159 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:26,960 cross one or two of these off so that we actually get the things 160 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:33,039 that we need to talk about. But also just Five East versus 161 00:08:33,039 --> 00:08:35,840 what you're talking about now it's, I only say this because I 162 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:37,840 recently talked to somebody about this as well. 163 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:42,000 Just the concept of a kind of split in generally the way that 164 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,919 people like to play games, right. 165 00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:47,160 In that I feel like there's obviously millions of people 166 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,000 that play 5 E They're very happy with the way it works in that 167 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:57,200 they're very happy to be kind of like brought through a story 168 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,840 that someone else is telling them and then and people are and 169 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:02,960 that's fine. And I'm getting much more. 170 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:04,960 OK. Not complaining about that a 171 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:06,720 lot. If that is the joy that people 172 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,600 find, that's fine. But I think we're all here on 173 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,120 the show aligned with. We don't like that. 174 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,160 I I like feeling exactly what you're talking about, exactly 175 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:19,560 what you want to do with games. And that is actually creating 176 00:09:19,560 --> 00:09:21,760 something and feeling like I'm doing something that I'm in 177 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,840 charge of the actions and consequences that that I that 178 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,800 are in front of me, you know? Yeah, I think the role of the 179 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,440 designer is is different and interesting in this space. 180 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,920 It's one of the things, one of the reactions that you might 181 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,160 have when you're discovering the space is you're like looking 182 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,840 through an RPG book and you're like, is this it? 183 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:41,200 You know, it feels underwhelming. 184 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:42,920 You're like, this is not enough here. 185 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,920 There aren't any rules or mechanics or or weird 186 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,280 mathematical trickery. And that's, that's the point. 187 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,880 And I think that's the maturity of the designer is to realize 188 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,360 that like, oh, I don't actually have to deploy all this effort. 189 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,640 Yeah, like, you know, in a way that is actually ultimately just 190 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:59,440 kind of self-serving. You know, it's just like I'm 191 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,000 trying to impress upon you my acumen as a designer. 192 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,440 That's not interesting. That's not what people that 193 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,000 actually take something from from the players. 194 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,480 And so it's a very counterintuitive design journey 195 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,360 that I think we go on when we when we embrace these 196 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,080 principles. I also think it's a matter of 197 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,000 who you're making it for as well. 198 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:25,480 When you pull out a lot of the like, not subtext, but a lot of 199 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:30,400 the hand holding like that becomes something for a a person 200 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,640 who is more familiar with like this space and like creating 201 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:36,960 your own narrative and filling their own gaps, which I don't 202 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:37,960 think there's anything bad about. 203 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,560 I think that's good. But you have to. 204 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:42,160 That's the question you kind of have to ask. 205 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:44,680 Yeah, for sure. And like to all the people 206 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:48,160 playing D&D and having a great time, I I never want to yuck 207 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,000 anybody's Yum. I think that's really, really 208 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:51,360 important. James They're not. 209 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:52,720 Sure. OK. 210 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:54,280 Right, right. You're right. 211 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,720 But if they were, I would hypothesize that their yummy is 212 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,440 a little yuckier than they are being honest with themselves 213 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,360 about, and then it could be yummier still. 214 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:10,320 Yeah, to that same exact point, If you are aware that that is 215 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,520 what you like and you are aware that something else is out there 216 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:15,800 and you still like it, more power to you. 217 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,200 It's more of the the concept that like 5 E really tries to 218 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,760 insulate its players in the context of like, oh you want to 219 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,920 play space game, just do 5E in space versus like going and 220 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:27,480 finding something like that in space. 221 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:29,920 You know, a lot of it comes down to just the amount of 222 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,960 scaffolding people need to play play their game. 223 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,480 And 5E is an extremely scaffolded system where like 224 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:41,840 every aspect of it is like it. It's handed to you and you need 225 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,880 all of these like training wheels and like definitive 226 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,760 things to to play it. Whereas a lot of the OSR, NSR 227 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:53,760 spaces like pull a lot of that scaffolding away and starting 228 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,120 with something like 5 EA game that has a lot more of that 229 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,000 scaffolding And then moving to the OSR space is great because 230 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,280 you've learned what you need to learn and you don't need it 231 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:02,840 anymore. So sometimes it's hard for 232 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,040 people to get directly into OSR and NSR because they don't have 233 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,200 that initial scaffolding. But for us that as you begin 234 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,040 your teaching HRPG journey once you need that scaffolding to 235 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,240 fall away, like that's the space that we're talking about now 236 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:16,840 and. Absolutely, yeah. 237 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:18,920 And like, I don't even necessarily have anything 238 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,800 against scaffolding. We might release some games that 239 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,800 are more heavily scaffolded. I just hope they scaffold you in 240 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:30,000 the right direction. And my conjecture is that 5th 241 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,920 Edition, as it as Dungeons and Dragons as a franchise, 242 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:35,720 developed and became more important to Hasbro. 243 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,680 I don't really hold anything against the the designers of the 244 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:44,160 later editions because I think they had really difficult goals, 245 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,720 just like difficult product goals that their designs had to 246 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,840 serve. D&D began as a, you know, as a 247 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,440 dungeon crawler heavily focused on a very specific style of 248 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,720 play, a specific tone, and the rules are there to support and 249 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,360 facilitate those interactions, but that's just not what it is 250 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,960 anymore. It became just kind of a loose 251 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,920 catch all narrative game where people are very invested in 252 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,280 their characters, back stories and it would be inappropriate 253 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:12,800 for them to die and blah blah blah. 254 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,120 The OC generator, yeah. Yeah, so if you want that, if 255 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,040 you want that kind of game, I think there are better 256 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:20,720 scaffolds. There are better systems to 257 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:22,560 facilitate that kind of narrative exchange. 258 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,640 If you want a dungeon crawler, there are still better systems 259 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,080 to go play. So I just don't know what 5E is 260 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,040 for anymore, you know? And I think it's it's, yeah. 261 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,120 So it's, it's OK if like we can make things that are for 262 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,360 something specifically. I think we have to. 263 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,160 I think if you make something for everyone, you make something 264 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,960 for no one categorically. And so if as long as you know 265 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,720 who it's for, right, then you can make something for them and 266 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,000 it can be scaffolded as long as that's what's appropriate for 267 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,880 the type of experience you're trying to create. 268 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,400 Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, 5E is is 269 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,040 like everything. It's a fandom and it has gone 270 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,800 from a game to a lifestyle brand, and people don't know how 271 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,800 to separate their pair of social lifestyle brands from the their 272 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:04,320 actual identity as a human being. 273 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:08,600 So anyway, Empty Mountain has already put out a game, right? 274 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,040 Shrines will be the the second game that it's actually 275 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,120 underneath the press, the first one being Sanctum. 276 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:15,320 Correct. Well, almost correct. 277 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:16,640 Shrines is not technically a game. 278 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,320 Shrines is a system mutual source book for many games, any 279 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,880 game that is engaging with the sacred as a theme. 280 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,640 This makes it simultaneously more flexible and less appealing 281 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,160 to everyone because it doesn't like, doesn't have a rule set 282 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,600 inside of it. It actually asks you and this is 283 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,240 sort of a lack of clarity on my part that I, I'm a lot of my 284 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,640 messaging is going to correct now is that like it's it's 285 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:41,280 saying very specifically to game masters. 286 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:45,840 It's saying embed these in your world expressing their mechanics 287 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,680 in your system period. Whatever that system may be. 288 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,560 You know, because I trust you as a game master, an intelligent 289 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,160 human being making, you know intentional, purposeful 290 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,480 decisions about rules narrative and and and tone. 291 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,040 You're going to do what? You're going to do that anyway, 292 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:04,840 right? So you're just, you're like, I 293 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,880 think any experienced reader in this medium is ultimately just 294 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:09,520 like if they're in a bookstore and like flipping through a 295 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:10,920 book, like, do I want to buy this or not? 296 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,160 I want for me, Let's I'll speak for myself here. 297 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,080 Anecdotally, I'm looking for actionable ideas, and if they 298 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,160 were bolded, that would be nice, so they could jump off the page 299 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,760 and I could see exactly what the kernel of novelty is in a given 300 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,400 design. That is useful to me as an 301 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,360 artist, as a as a creator and a world builder who is going to 302 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,320 take it and repurpose it to my own personal needs anyway, 303 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,080 right? So the whole philosophy behind 304 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,040 shrines and we'll get the second in a second. 305 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,760 I'm really sorry this is off topic, but the philosophy behind 306 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:42,480 shrines here that I I could have and will now do a better job of 307 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:47,600 of elucidating is that I don't want to chew your food for you. 308 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,880 I want to give you exactly what you need, no more and no less. 309 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,200 No, no superfluous crunch, no superfluous fluff. 310 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,800 Just the actionable idea, the kernel of novelty with a 311 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,600 beautiful illustration. You know, to to back it up and 312 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,320 to sell you atmosphere and tone and really bring you in and give 313 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,040 you all of the sort of like kind of like emotional meta 314 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,000 information that you would need to make use of that novelty 315 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,920 yourself. Yeah, you put a lot of trust in 316 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,080 human beings who are, on the whole, fucking stupid so. 317 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,000 Yeah, I think it's a mistake maybe. 318 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,200 No, it's fantastic. I mean, I love the idea of the 319 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,200 project. Like I said, well, let's wind it 320 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,440 back for just a second because once we start trying, we're 321 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,160 going to go for a while. But Sanctum Sanctum already 322 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,920 exists. And for those who want to get 323 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:39,400 into the empty mountain early, because I feel like if your 324 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,200 vision happens, we're gonna we're we're looking at something 325 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,400 that is striving for you know the next games. 326 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,000 I'm nervous. Kind of like art house press 327 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,040 idea, which I'm super excited for. 328 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:50,640 I'm very kind of what. Thank you. 329 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,160 But what is? What is Sanctum, since this was 330 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,680 the first thing that kind of represents you that you decided 331 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:57,960 to put out? Yeah. 332 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:02,680 So Sanctum is pretty directly inspired by the ground itself, 333 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:07,200 by Everest Pipkin, which is a collaborative storytelling world 334 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:12,359 building game where everybody sort of in a collectively shares 335 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,640 authorship over a setting over a longer, a long period of time. 336 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:19,920 It's got a couple components, you know, use like a deck of 337 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,200 playing cards to answer prompts, which you look up in the book. 338 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,319 And So what Sanctum is doing is, is making a couple couple 339 00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:27,680 changes on that. It's first of all getting a 340 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,320 little more specific. It's saying this is about 341 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:34,360 dungeons, dungeons as a theme. We all understand what a dungeon 342 00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:37,000 is. I'm going to try to verbatim 343 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:38,240 quote myself in the instructions. 344 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,440 It says like a dungeon can be any enclosed dangerous space 345 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,640 into which outsiders might venture venture for personal 346 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,240 gain. That's my working definition of 347 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,080 a dungeon. I they could be they could be 348 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,200 open air theoretically, but I think they would need some 349 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:53,960 enclosure otherwise. We're just talking about 350 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,040 sandbox, you know. I think we get our words have to 351 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,000 mean something, you know so but they can be a tower, you know. 352 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:00,720 It could be a cave, it could be a tomb, doesn't matter. 353 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:08,200 And it is basically just a template for conversation. 354 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,360 It's really just a series of prompts and some barely there 355 00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:16,960 rotation rules that say, OK, here are the here's some 356 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:22,040 curated, heavily analyzed pillars as prompts of what a 357 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,840 dungeon is and what makes it interesting inside of it. 358 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,560 So you move through three acts over the course of the game as 359 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:29,680 if you were doing, you know, narrative arcs in a story. 360 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,440 They don't really map onto the the Aristotelian curve 361 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,760 correctly, but like, there's three arcs. 362 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,080 So the first one is the dungeon itself, where the player, the 363 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,360 players, define the features, the aspects of that dungeon that 364 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,840 give it its identity. And so the the those prompts 365 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:50,080 here for clarity are the site, the site itself, the place, the 366 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,920 prize, the thing inside it that's worth risking your life 367 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,000 to retrieve. And the Guardian, because 368 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,640 there's a boss battle, right? Got to be in dungeons. 369 00:18:58,640 --> 00:18:59,960 Yeah. Just thematically, 370 00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:01,880 conventionally, we all, we all want a boss battle here. 371 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,200 So we identify these three things and then there's sort of 372 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,560 an expansion. It's not DLC, but like we 373 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,320 literally like a moment afforded to the players after the 374 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,320 original definitions of expanding each other's ideas. 375 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,160 You may not talk about something that you you may not expand upon 376 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,560 an idea that you yourself offered, and you may, and you 377 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,560 ideally want to prioritize details that nobody has expanded 378 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:25,080 upon yet. So this is all really 379 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,880 deliberate. I don't want there to be any 380 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,520 sense of, like personal ownership and the implied 381 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,880 competition that would happen in the conversation. 382 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,280 It's not like So one person's like I define the prize and 383 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,880 therefore I'm like, wedded to it, and its fate matters more to 384 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:40,120 me than it might to my other players. 385 00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:42,360 No, you define the prize and somebody else makes fun of it or 386 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,280 embellishes it, you know? So it's like the yes and improv 387 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,520 attitude is really important here where we allow players to 388 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,720 kind of go through it. Second act is we define the 389 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,880 party, the intruders, who's going to go get this, who are 390 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,280 they, what's interesting about them and how do they prepare? 391 00:19:58,440 --> 00:19:59,640 Right. So we get we start to set the 392 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,160 scene and the last step, how do we prepare implies the third 393 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,000 act, which is the actual adventure itself. 394 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,800 And this is, there's a a bit of a. 395 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,480 A change in kind here where all of a sudden now we're talking 396 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:11,960 about a narrative. Before we were doing world 397 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,000 building. It was expository. 398 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,280 We were like, OK, here's like the scenery, right? 399 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,200 It's all kind of static and frozen in time and we're 400 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,600 defining that moment. But now time is going to 401 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,760 progress linearly. So over the course of act three, 402 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:24,840 they we actually go through the dungeon. 403 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:29,120 And so there's the approach, the complication and the resolution. 404 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,880 And I'll stop talking, I think. But I do want to talk, I think. 405 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:35,560 No, keep going. No. 406 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:36,040 You sure? OK. 407 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,360 Yeah, totally. OK Well, the complication part, 408 00:20:38,360 --> 00:20:40,400 I think is the most interesting here because it's the most 409 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,560 editorial moment in the entire design. 410 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,880 For the most part, Sanctum is saying here's what dungeons are 411 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,600 structurally, and here is like the shape of the sandbox. 412 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,520 I want you to be able to very deliberately replay this over 413 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,480 and over and over again with different people with different 414 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,760 ideas, and for the dungeons to be very different. 415 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,320 I want it to be a generative system. 416 00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:03,520 It's a it is a generative replayable system for creating 417 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,560 content. And you might then come up with 418 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,440 a cool dungeon with your friends and then run a like flesh it out 419 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:13,040 and actually go run, you know, mark board or D&D or something 420 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:14,800 in it. You know it's a, it's a, it's a 421 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,640 like a scene generator. But something different happens 422 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,600 in Act three, specifically in Step 2, the complication, which 423 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,280 is where as a design, it says sort of ideologically, it says 424 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,640 something's going to go wrong. Structurally, you must define a 425 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:35,600 set back, because setbacks are a really important part of that 426 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,640 Aristotelian curve, which is not the only way to tell the story, 427 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:40,240 but it is the main one that we do in the West. 428 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:45,600 And there is a part such as the entire movie, The Empire Strikes 429 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:47,840 Back. You know, when shit goes wrong. 430 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,840 You know, we set up, we, we we meet our characters, we learn 431 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,080 their goals, we set them off on their path. 432 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:54,800 We have the inciting incident. Everything gets exciting. 433 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,920 There's a big set back that follows to earn the the climax 434 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:00,320 and the ultimate cathartic victory. 435 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:07,000 And so I contend that this is essential to a good story in 436 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,360 that format. And so if we are doing that, if 437 00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:13,040 we are telling a story structurally, we should really 438 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,600 make space for and actually formalize a set back. 439 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,640 This is also important for players to be like oh, to to 440 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,880 remind them again that we're not wedded to these characters. 441 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,000 It's it's a totally interesting story for the dungeon run to 442 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,880 fail. You know, if you have a TPK and 443 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,680 everybody's dead. And the resolution of the run is 444 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,320 that as one of the one of the examples in the book that the 445 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,240 guardian mounts all of the intruders heads on spikes 446 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:38,760 outside of the dungeon as badass. 447 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,080 Good job, cool story. You know that We don't have to 448 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,280 win. The objective is different for 449 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:45,240 gameplay. We're not. 450 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,040 It's not actually an RPG. You're not playing a role. 451 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,320 No. No player is in the driver's 452 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:56,160 seat of a of a hero and playing out a heroic power fantasy. 453 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,760 The objective is to tell a good story, and sometimes those end 454 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,960 in failure. Yeah, I really. 455 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,400 So when I first got this one of the very first thing, and I 456 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:07,640 think I said to Hunter 2, it reminds me a little bit, have 457 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,880 you ever played Archipelago? That's a board game, right? 458 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,640 No, it's like a it's a generative kind of storytelling 459 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,640 this, but it reminded me of the same kind of vibes as like 460 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,440 Microscope or Archipelago. And I absolutely love those 461 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,120 games where you exactly like you said, kind of write this story. 462 00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:29,520 But I really love the way that it was applied into the 3X and 463 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,480 directly specifically to like dungeon design storytelling, 464 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,400 right? And it's really cool. 465 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,400 And I love the idea that you have where you could get to like 466 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,960 Step 2 and be like, right, let's play now, like let's play this 467 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,240 world. So it's nice that not only is it 468 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,640 a system where you can sit around and play with your 469 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,880 friends, but you can also use it to generate other things, which 470 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,680 is nice and like a little a six. You're going to get like a lot 471 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,160 more than you think out of like what? 472 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,560 Like the 20 ish pages or less. So it it it's a neat thing and 473 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:02,440 it's it's really interesting for the first kind of thing that 474 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,480 you're putting out as your press to be this like OK clearly we're 475 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,360 gonna be leading into narrative. We're gonna be leading into this 476 00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:13,800 specific type of design away from some type of heavy 477 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:15,240 mechanical thing. Right. 478 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,880 Yeah. To be to be clear we might put 479 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:23,200 out a heavy mechanical thing you know some of the like I am a 480 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,240 systems designer in my day job so I like mechanical things. 481 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,840 I am just removing them mechanically like as a mechanic. 482 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,240 I'm like pairing those back for these kinds of designs with the 483 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:36,800 press might do other stuff in the future. 484 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,880 But right now I'm I'm very interested in this kind of stuff 485 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,160 but I do want to I do want to drill a little deeper on your 486 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,200 your noting of its size. So a six, as a format as like a 487 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:51,000 as a as a, you know, a size of a book is very purposeful and 488 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,520 interesting. One of the design goals for this 489 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,360 game, and I think this is absolutely this will always be 490 00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:57,400 100% everything every mountain does will always do this. 491 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:58,320 I think this is really important. 492 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,400 Playability or accessibility I think is just absolutely 493 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,080 essential. If you ask like to reference D&D 494 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,920 again, if you ask the Dungeon Master to buy all the books and 495 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,080 do a preposterous amount of reading and prep, the 496 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,280 playability of your game is very, very low. 497 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:18,320 Very fucking low, you know. And so A6 means it fits in your 498 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:19,960 pants. Let's say it fits in your back 499 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,200 pocket. It's a back pocket, exactly. 500 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,720 You can bust that shit out on and this is something that, like 501 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,160 Exalted Funeral took this line of copy and put it at the top of 502 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:28,760 the store page. They like Big Orange Font 503 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:30,680 because they agree that this is the selling point. 504 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,000 It was designed for bonfire circles, car rides, and 2nd 505 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,240 bottles of wine. I want to ambush my friends with 506 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,160 this game when we're all a little drunk and feeling loose 507 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,760 and creative, and I want it to be such a simple system. 508 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,480 It's very important that the that the systems be be so simple 509 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,760 and accessible that the facilitator, character player, 510 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,800 which is an optional role, you don't need that. 511 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,560 It can have just read the book one time and literally be like, 512 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,360 OK, we're sitting in a circle, your player 123, what does the 513 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:04,160 site go, you know, And now we're playing like just off off the 514 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,720 bat. That's very, very important 515 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:11,560 because we're all adults. We all live in the age of the 516 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,640 inchitified Internet, so our brains are broken and it's 517 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,040 really hard to like, actually get together in person. 518 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,800 And it's just anything we can do as designers to remove obstacles 519 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,400 to people actually playing the game is, you know, that's 520 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:32,040 mission critical. I mean, absolutely in it's it's 521 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,520 interesting when you think about that and the number of games 522 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,640 that I've chosen not to get. I don't understand people That, 523 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,200 And again, to each their own. I love quality. 524 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,840 Like, you know, qualifiers I think are really important in 525 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,880 this space because so many people don't use them and act as 526 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,160 if they're an authority in a space when it's really just a 527 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,520 personal opinion. So in my personal opinion, when 528 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,800 I see a book that like, touts the fact that it's 500 pages, 529 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,000 I'm like, I don't, I personally don't see it as a good thing. 530 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,480 I'm never going to fucking read it, never going to fucking read 531 00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:58,320 it. Why do you think we haven't 532 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,320 reviewed DCC it on the show? I know it's all spells. 533 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:06,600 Don't get mad at me but it's I I that's why you know we're both 534 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:12,000 fucking piece of shit like 0 attention span high ADHD like if 535 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,000 it's more than a couple 100 pages like I'm I'm I'm already 536 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,400 checked out I'm sorry. Like I will try but I just 537 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:18,880 can't. So I I love the small and I 538 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:24,000 really like the the thought process into that. 539 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,440 You've clearly, clearly, clearly put into such a small format and 540 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,680 small game like it's not, it's dense for its brevity, you know 541 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,440 what I mean? And I really enjoy them about 542 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:39,200 design. And so does that carry over into 543 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,480 shrines like these principles that you have in Sanctum when 544 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,800 you're looking at shrines, which as you said, it's not a game 545 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,200 it's a system neutral kind of supplement. 546 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:48,800 It's a resource. It's. 547 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,800 A resource toolkit, yeah. Right. 548 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,000 What are there similar kind of themes and and themes that you 549 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,120 might carry forward with empty mountain that you brought 550 00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:00,400 forward into shrines? And also like tell us a bit more 551 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,640 about shrines? Yeah, absolutely. 552 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,040 Yeah. So I'll answer the the question 553 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,920 concretely first before we talk about shrines and abstractly and 554 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,600 in general. So the meat of shrines are these 555 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,800 12 spreads, right, that are each of them really lavishly 556 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,000 illustrated by Connor Fawcett who's just a phenomenal 557 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:19,600 illustrator who's working with us on this project. 558 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,800 They've they've contributed to stuff like Wander Home and 559 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,440 Lancer and world ending game by Everest Pipkin and so just 560 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:31,000 really, really fantastic work. Each of those illustrations 561 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,880 provides visual, atmospheric, tonal context for a little 562 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,880 narrative and mechanical vignette. 563 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:46,280 Just a bit of micro fiction and a excuse me, a system neutral 564 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,200 gameplay hook. A a a little bit of a little bit 565 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,840 of a mechanic game mechanical game design that we just trust 566 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,720 you to be able to lift out and apply to whatever system you're 567 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,200 doing. And so there's a deliberate 568 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:08,800 brevity in all of those things in in that approach and I will 569 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:10,560 be likely it's possible right now. 570 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,560 You know I don't want to like this would be the first time I 571 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,840 talk about it publicly but I I might actually just double the 572 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,160 amount of microfiction that the book contains without doubling 573 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,040 the illustrations. It would just it would break the 574 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,000 budget to to double the illustrations. 575 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,480 But I do want people to really feel like they're getting their 576 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,720 value for a source book. You know the the the fact that 577 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,120 it's reso printed on such, you know fancy stock and it's the 578 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,280 the process of that printing is more expensive in general means 579 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:34,760 the the price point can't really change. 580 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:36,760 But I do want people to feel like they're getting their 581 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,960 money's worth. So writing is, you know, free 582 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:40,800 for me. Like it's I can, I can do that 583 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,280 easily. It takes time, obviously, and 584 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,600 sweat equity. But it's like I don't have to 585 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,480 hire somebody else to make that contribution to add that extra 586 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,920 volume of content. So, you know, a bit of an bit of 587 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:53,240 ambiguity there. But that's the thing, That's the 588 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,600 thought process, right? The philosophy here is that 589 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:01,360 Ioffer you more by, not by offering you less, right? 590 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:07,400 Like it's it's a very deliberate piece of actionable, you know, 591 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,320 idea, idea, work per scene per vignette. 592 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,200 You supported of course with. Sorry, go ahead. 593 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:16,200 No, no, no. Continue please. 594 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,360 Well supported of course by with couple pages of procedural 595 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,600 tools. So multi column modular tables 596 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,320 that are deliberately generative, right? 597 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,680 I, I, I for me might like, I like tables, but if they only 598 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,960 have one column, they're just a list of writing. 599 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,560 There's they're just a list of like a very specific pieces of 600 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,720 prompts. Systemically I find them more 601 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,320 interesting if they are combinatorial in such as like 602 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,640 like Valtivarn for instance, which is an absolutely masterful 603 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,120 book. The the, the breadth and and 604 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,240 depth of of those tables is absurd. 605 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:55,320 And I think that, you know, having combinatorial prompts 606 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,120 like that allows GMs to do the same kind of work that they 607 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,320 would do in Sanctum, players might do in Sanctum. 608 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,360 And so there's a bit of that in the back, but the the first bit, 609 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,360 those those vignettes, that micro fiction that's more 610 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,920 authorial, you can obviously make whatever changes to them 611 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,480 you want, but each one of them is a bit more of a a a more 612 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,600 wholly realized narrative conceit. 613 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,320 Yeah. I I, I love the the, you know 614 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,800 the best thing that I find with this kind of like generative 615 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:31,720 procedural kind of supplemental context is the adventure seeds 616 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,400 and then the ability to use those to expand. 617 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:39,000 And having that and making people be aware, you know you're 618 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,200 really again it comes back to trust where you're you're really 619 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,120 looking for a market of people that don't want something that's 620 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,240 just necessarily here's this cool thing that people wrote 621 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,040 beginning to end with no nothing outside of it. 622 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,120 It is in itself the thing and you just drop it in versus the 623 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,000 people that are like this is a cool idea. 624 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,400 I can think of 10 different ways where I can run this like in my 625 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,840 own thing or adapt it. So for example I'm looking at 626 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,520 the Oracle of malice which obviously there's a reason you 627 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,160 put it at the top. It's fucking cool and art is 628 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:08,880 fantastic. Yeah. 629 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,240 There's a reason it's. On AT shirt, which we'll get to, 630 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,520 but I love this spread here, and it's for those watching the 631 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,120 slideshow. They'll see it above us, but 632 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,480 like, just the idea behind like this idol, Buried Deep hosts A 633 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,360 hateful Oracle. Venerators may name an enemy. 634 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,200 Roll the D6 to determine what the Oracle reveals about the 635 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,440 enemy and this information must be new. 636 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,480 And then there's six options, one of which is like something 637 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,280 they fear or something they love, something they hate. 638 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:37,040 Like, it's fantastic for the ways that not only are there six 639 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:42,200 options for that very small, tiny little bit, but a million 640 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,200 paths that can be taken off of each one. 641 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,040 And even for just those small little pieces, outside of the 642 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,320 generative tables and extra microfiction like you, there's 643 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,000 1000 campaigns like we wrote off this one little square page and 644 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,040 and I love that. You're singing my song. 645 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,480 I feel so seen right now. Thank you very much for for, you 646 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,360 know, unpacking what I hope the people see as the value in this 647 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,720 approach, right. Like I don't want to just flesh 648 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,520 out answer all the questions for you chew your food for you but I 649 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,800 do want to get you chewing and so that's that's really great to 650 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,840 hear If you're listening to this right now and you feel like your 651 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,200 values are being described please come check out the 652 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,720 Kickstarter. You know we we're funded now but 653 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,800 we could have a stronger launch I I would have like to have a 654 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,600 slightly stronger launch because the the presses debut product 0 655 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,160 established audience so far is the first podcast I've been on. 656 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,240 So thank you guys again. Wow, yeah. 657 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,640 Thanks for making us your first. Hey, I mean you guys are the 1st 658 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,960 to say yes. So it's like this is, this is 659 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,040 the this is the beginning. I'm this is the beginning of me 660 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,080 trying to find that audience, find that community who shares 661 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:46,720 these values. So if you're listening, if you 662 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,360 feel like we're describing you please show up. 663 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,120 Follow us on Instagram. Show up on Discord. 664 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,360 Say hello. I want to make games for you or 665 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,920 I want to make or I want to make resources that make the games 666 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,320 you're already playing better, easier, more interesting. 667 00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:02,600 That's what I'm here to do. Very cool James, I have a 668 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,440 question. What what do you play like? 669 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,600 What is your go to game that you and your table? 670 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:13,639 Play well, kind of between play groups right now. 671 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,600 Recently moved so my play group in in Los Angeles. 672 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,480 Not super recently, but my big my big play group was in LA and 673 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,400 the last thing we did was a huge 5E campaign. 674 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:26,719 It was pretty badass. We had a good time, but it was 675 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,639 barely 5E. You know, I remember there were 676 00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:31,360 sessions where like you roll a you roll the die once, once or 677 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,159 twice. We're playing a lot of board 678 00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:36,800 games right now. I, you know, I work in video 679 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:41,440 games and it is professionally mandatory that my diet be 680 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,480 diverse. So I'm I'm playing much more 681 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,320 video games than I am tabletop games right now. 682 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,960 Which is part of why I'm doing this, because I'm tired of I'm 683 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,639 tired of a lot of what video games ask me to do. 684 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,239 I think they're kind of disrespectful of our time in 685 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,920 general, especially like if you're making a live service or 686 00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:59,920 something. There's this idea that you want 687 00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:02,520 people to be logged in as often as possible, as frequently as 688 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,000 possible, and you want to really want to create FOMO when they're 689 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,760 when they're not logged in. And I FOMO is like for me, like 690 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:14,200 my nemesis I I want. I hate if if a design implies 691 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,640 that I will, that the player will feel FOMO. 692 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,040 I'm. I'm probably going to put a 693 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:19,720 sniper bullet between his eyes, like, right away. 694 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,760 I respect that and I appreciate it so. 695 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,280 Yeah, so, so, so, yeah, thank you. 696 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:28,280 What are we playing right now? What do you want to play like 697 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:29,880 tabletop wise? What's it what like? 698 00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:35,360 If you were like going to sit at a table and the the whatever 699 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,640 game master was going to use shrines and whatever else, what 700 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:45,000 would you want to play? I would love to see shrines in a 701 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,520 couple different systems and each one of these I think would 702 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,200 really express like a different version of it, like a different 703 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:55,720 way to use it. I think burning wheel obviously 704 00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:58,920 on the crunchier end would be would be really interesting. 705 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,520 The system doesn't really matter at this point, and this is like 706 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,800 a sort of an OSR position. I think that is like it doesn't 707 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,000 actually really matter. That's why there aren't really 708 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:10,920 rules in the thing. I agree. 709 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:12,760 I just want players to sit personally. 710 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,080 Yeah, yeah, me personally, I really want to play some index 711 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,360 card RPG. I want to play more Iron Sworn. 712 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,840 One thing I am playing right now is a solo journaling game called 713 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,360 Glitch Them. I don't know if if you played 714 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,520 that, but it is badass. I, my protagonist, is such an 715 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,680 asshole and I love it. It's like the worst version of 716 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,160 me. It's like just this evil, shitty 717 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,880 exaltation of all my worst character traits and it's just a 718 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:37,240 phenomenal character. I love it. 719 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,640 And that game, the game drew it out systemically, you know, like 720 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,640 it it it, it created that character from within me, which 721 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,040 meant means it did a really great job. 722 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:49,240 I would definitely love to play, you know, any, any number of 723 00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:51,600 like, lean rules, like stuff right now. 724 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,080 Like Bastards is high on the list. 725 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:56,800 What's in the mail, What's even coming? 726 00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:01,240 Really Wanna do some tin candles? 727 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,040 And that's kinda hard to. Schedule tin candles is great. 728 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:05,280 We've run that a couple of times. 729 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,440 Yeah, it's definitely, it's an interesting, well last time we 730 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:14,680 ran we ran it as kind of a fuck, what is that French? 731 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,080 What is that? What is that French tour game 732 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,600 between 2 fires style like during the bubonic plague kind 733 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,960 of thing as opposed to like the the post apocalypse kind of 734 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:25,640 survivor bit. Super fun, great game. 735 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,120 Yeah, it's a great game and it's also very flexible with its 736 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,800 world building like it's it's setting is is up to the table to 737 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,440 define. Yeah, no, it was, it's super 738 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,520 great and you know, as soon as you say that like it definitely 739 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,480 kind of. I can feel that as like leaning 740 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,360 into kind of like the vibe we're going for with the the narrative 741 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,720 aspects of play and stuff. Shifting back a little bit 742 00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:48,960 towards shrines though. Sure, yeah it's first of all the 743 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,400 color scheme is fantastic. I love, I love the red and 744 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:56,360 yellow but it's it is system agnostic. 745 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,760 But it's not necessary it's it's very not culturally agnostic. 746 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:04,080 Like there's a huge part of, I believe it's it's it's mostly 747 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,200 like Himalayan Buddhism. Yeah. 748 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,000 So what, besides the fact that you were like, took, took a trip 749 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,440 what and spent time in a place or or is that the main impetus? 750 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,800 What is the impetus for choosing that specifically as kind of 751 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:21,560 like the cultural point for it? Well, I would describe myself as 752 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,360 what people say as a secular Buddhist. 753 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:29,960 I am, you know, Buddhist Metaphysics are my ARMA there. 754 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,320 I was a philosophy and cognitive science major in college, and I 755 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,000 was interested in philosophy of mine, questions of consciousness 756 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,320 and stuff. And you can't really answer, 757 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:47,680 like ask those questions without looking at older Eastern 758 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,600 philosophical traditions which have been hammering those points 759 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:52,960 for longer than the West had civilization. 760 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,640 And so I spent four months in India and Nepal on a Tibetan and 761 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,720 Himalayan studies program. People on the on that program 762 00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:05,200 were mostly focused on the socio political consequences of the 763 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,080 Tibetan diaspora. I was there for Buddhism. 764 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:13,840 And so I embedded in some monasteries in Kathmandu urban 765 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,720 monasteries, mainly around a very large stupa there, which is 766 00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:20,160 a reliquary mound in in Himalayan Buddhist tradition 767 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,720 called Botanath. And there's a bunch of actually 768 00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:27,680 pretty developed, pretty robust academic monasteries around 769 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,120 that, that one of which had actually had a Western master's 770 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,360 program in in in Eastern and Buddhist studies that you could 771 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,680 go do there. And so there were a number of 772 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,560 Western graduate students who were fluent in Tibet. 773 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,920 And we learned a little Tibetan on the program, but like not 774 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:42,560 enough to talk about philosophy, obviously. 775 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,680 So I had some really great translators, you know, and I sat 776 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:51,040 down with like the Dalai Lama's French trans official, French 777 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,120 translator, who had been a nuclear physicist. 778 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,160 And so it was thoroughly, you know, thoroughly fluent in 779 00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:00,000 Western physical theory, which I was trying to, you know, connect 780 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,720 and really answer and resolve some questions with particularly 781 00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:03,520 the mind body problem. Right. 782 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,160 So we had this question in, in Western philosophy. 783 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,400 It was like how can an immaterial consciousness 784 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:13,080 interact with a a material body without like violating the laws 785 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,160 of the conservation of energy and so on and so forth. 786 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,360 And it's just a natural. It's not. 787 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,880 That problem is a natural question of like Cartesian 788 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,960 dualism and just this general sort of judeo-christian idea 789 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:29,560 that we have a soul. And I was a, you know, a pretty 790 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,440 aggressive empiricist when when I got there, it was much more 791 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:36,600 like people in the program were a lot more immediately open to 792 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:40,640 mysticism and sort of the more emotional answers, I think, to 793 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,240 some of these questions. And I was like, Nope, I'm going 794 00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:43,920 to swing the hammer at this as hard as I can. 795 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:48,000 And it's the only, it is the only value system and sort of 796 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,560 philosophical body of ideas that survived. 797 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:53,840 My hammer just kept bouncing off and I was like, this appears to 798 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,640 be true. So I you know that field work 799 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,760 that I did there was specifically on the subject of 800 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:05,440 emptiness, which is just the it's not nihilism, but it's not 801 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,000 material realism. It's somewhere in the middle. 802 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,920 It's this, there's a school of thought in in in Buddhist 803 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,280 philosophy called the Madhyamika and it it's calls itself the 804 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,920 Middle Way Path. And it is a big delicate idea 805 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,960 and I'm not going to do it here, but it's like I'm not going to 806 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,240 unpack it all here. I saw, but I but I published on 807 00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:24,720 that in a in an undergraduate philosophy journal when I came 808 00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:28,600 back home and I have just generally been a a a a Buddhist 809 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,680 thinker ever since. And so the ideas of of 810 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,280 interconnectivity, interdependence permeate all my 811 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:38,440 work. I'm not really interested in in 812 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:44,160 more Western value value sets that pit US against each other, 813 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:45,600 particularly against our environment. 814 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,680 I I think that climate change and environmentalism in general 815 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,800 is like the OR problem, you know and it's like it's easy to say 816 00:41:54,800 --> 00:42:01,640 as, like as as as one who is relatively spared the pain of of 817 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,920 other socio economic problems socio cultural racial problems 818 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,360 and was a white dude, you know, so like I don't feel day by day 819 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,240 other problems but I I do think that the the umbrella problem 820 00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:16,720 that our civilization faces is an ecological 1 And so I think 821 00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:20,000 Buddhism is is a philosophical tradition that is inherently 822 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:24,080 ecological like ecology as a practice is about the is about 823 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,080 sisters systems of interconnectivity between 824 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:32,240 organisms in an environment. And so I'm way off topic, but Oh 825 00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:33,800 no. But there is no no you're you're 826 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:35,640 doing. Great point in the show like. 827 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:45,080 Generally, I as a creator have a Buddhist value set and I'm I'm 828 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,040 interested in. I remain interested, even as an 829 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,000 empiricist, as like a secular empiricist. 830 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,680 I'm very interested in the aesthetics of mysticism and the 831 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:56,200 actual methodology of of of contemplative practice in terms 832 00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:01,000 of the means of of acquiring and experiencing truth like we can 833 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:02,720 understand. I wrote a paper about emptiness, 834 00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:04,440 but doesn't mean it doesn't make me enlightened. 835 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,040 I don't go around and like perceive the interconnectivity 836 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,800 of phenomena around me that would take meditating in a cave 837 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,240 probably over multiple lifetimes. 838 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:13,720 If you accept reincarnation as a practice, as a you know, as a 839 00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:16,280 part of the process, blah blah blah and so. 840 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,120 That just means that reincarnation. 841 00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:22,600 I did, yes. Because we don't have time. 842 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:26,040 We do not have time, you know, so, so like, this is to say that 843 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,240 those values are present in all of my work. 844 00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:32,600 That said, as I as I mentioned, I'm a white dude, so I'm and 845 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,640 I'm, I'm playing with ideas that are religious in in nature. 846 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:41,000 There are institutional, widely practiced, you know, like 847 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,800 cultural practices and and and conflicts around these ideas. 848 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,880 I may be interested in the ideas more specifically, but I'm also 849 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:52,640 interested in the people who practice them and the you know, 850 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:57,560 I deeply disinterested in in stomping around like a tourist 851 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:02,200 in in people's faith. You know, I I like Buddhism 852 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,640 because it is not a faith. It is an empirical tradition. 853 00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,240 It it specifically asks you to not have faith, to suspend, to 854 00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:13,400 believe something in the absence of evidence, which is I think, 855 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,840 foolish and and dumb and bad. We should not do that. 856 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,000 I I would agree with that. Yeah, you know and so so that 857 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,480 said we've really exciting cultural consultants on this 858 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,160 project. The the most exciting novel of 859 00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,160 which is an actual ass Tibetan monastic scholar. 860 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,120 He's the founder. His name is the Kempo Pema Wong 861 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:36,560 Duck Kempo is a is a a formal title in in in Tibetan Buddhist 862 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,680 sort of hierarchical structures that that basically denotes 863 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,240 academic and scholarly mastery over all of the schools of 864 00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:47,920 thought. So he knows way more, way, way 865 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:49,600 more than I've done. Madiyamika is just one of the 866 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,400 several schools that he is required to be fluent in. 867 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,120 And you know, he's been teaching the Dharma across the world for 868 00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:58,400 like 40 years. So having him involved as a 869 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,400 cultural consultant is so cool because not like the the bare 870 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,560 minimum, the absolute bare minimum. 871 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:06,400 The first box we want to check is like, hey, are we not 872 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,480 offending anybody? Are we, are we not playing fast 873 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:12,600 and loose with action with real religious concepts, Are we? 874 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,720 We're not actually depicting any of them, you know, directly. 875 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:17,920 They might inspire something, the mythology might inspire 876 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,200 something, but generally it has to be obfuscated in the in this 877 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,600 kind of remixing of fiction. But what's what's the real value 878 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,000 add out here is that I'm going to let that guy drive a lot of 879 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,840 the writing. I'm going to I'm going to it's 880 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:35,760 you know he knows he hasn't he has he's he he has a deeper 881 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,760 degree of of like experience with and understanding with the 882 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,320 mythology that inspires some of the existing writing right now. 883 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:47,640 So the conversations are are often just like hey where else 884 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,000 could this go like what else what am I not seeing here what 885 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,640 do you what what cool angles do you see here And it's like I'll 886 00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:55,600 I'll do the translating into a gameplay mechanic if it's 887 00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:01,080 appropriate but he can open the door to just you know influences 888 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:02,600 that I don't have. So that's that's really, really 889 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,080 exciting. When you reach out to a scholar 890 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,960 like that and you're like, hey, I'm making something for a 891 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,560 tabletop for tabletop games, like what is that conversation 892 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:14,120 like? Like what is his opinion about 893 00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:16,040 like the medium that you're creating for? 894 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,360 He's so stoked. He had no idea what I was 895 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,600 talking about, but he loved it in the beginning. 896 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,240 He had just done cultural consultation just like this in a 897 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,960 in a play on a on some some theater in New York City. 898 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:30,200 The foundation that he runs is in New York, so, you know, he's 899 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,000 a pretty worldly guy. He understands the sort of like 900 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,280 Western cultural discourse around art making. 901 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,800 There's another cultural consultant on board, James 902 00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,800 Mendez Hodes, who has done some much more visible in this space 903 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:48,680 cultural consulting work. He's even more fluent in the 904 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,440 sort of like the online discourse around around of the 905 00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:54,560 medium. But he's hardly ignorant. 906 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:56,280 He's he has an Eastern Eastern classics degree. 907 00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,720 He's also, you know, you know, going to be a great voice in 908 00:46:59,720 --> 00:47:02,440 terms of the content itself, but approaching the Kempo, right. 909 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,640 So I did this through 1/3 cultural consultant. 910 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:06,840 His name is Jeremy McMahon. He's a museum educator. 911 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:08,640 He worked at the Guggenheim works at the Guggenheim. 912 00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:10,560 Now he worked at the Rubin Museum in New York, which 913 00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,400 specifically dedicated to Himalayan art. 914 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:18,440 And he actually, he and I were on that program together in in 915 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,440 India, Nepal, the Tibetan Himalayan Studies program. 916 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,920 So I asked him, he was the first person I reached out to. 917 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,640 I was like who who do you know in your network that I can 918 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,400 include in this project to really drive it and and take it 919 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:35,320 somewhere, you know further than I can And so he connected me to 920 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,880 the Kempo and that like it's great. 921 00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,080 It's really great. He's he's not the Kempo himself 922 00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:44,560 is not. Like I said he he's not new to 923 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,720 this process. He's really excited about it and 924 00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:49,400 I'm. I'm even more excited like I'm 925 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,800 I'm, I'm honored that. I'm honored that he's even given 926 00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,600 us the time. I think that is so incredibly 927 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,640 cool. I was also just thinking, like 928 00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:58,840 explaining tabletop games to my coworkers. 929 00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:01,840 They like they they're nothing. Nothing sticks. 930 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,840 So nothing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 931 00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:06,720 But I mean, when you're talking to someone who's a scholar of 932 00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:09,720 like so much stuff, I can only imagine that their ability to 933 00:48:09,720 --> 00:48:14,040 like entertain an idea is like their their like brain is 934 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,080 already like like not susceptible, but like much more 935 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,320 able than like our, you know, I. Don't know. 936 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,560 Kevin, who works right next to me, is incredibly scholarly and. 937 00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:27,600 Yeah, the guy's got a great brain, no no doubt. 938 00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:29,880 And he is excited about the creativity aspect of things. 939 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:31,640 Where I'm saying like, look, we're what we're doing is what 940 00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,320 we're we're providing material for people to tell their own 941 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,760 stories. We're we're we're making we're 942 00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:42,160 making Buddhist tradition and mythologies available to people 943 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:46,000 to explore in a in a distant, fictionalized, you know, arm's 944 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,000 length way. But we're we're like translating 945 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,400 it to this medium in the way that like Eurocentric fantasy 946 00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,640 has been. You know, it's it's inseparable 947 00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:55,880 from it. It's so endemic to the to the 948 00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,520 thing that it's actually just like a core component, this idea 949 00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,800 that like you have a knight, you know, who plays fealty, fealty 950 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:07,520 to a Lord and that there is like you know one very specific Lord 951 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,200 of light deity type thing. Like all these tropes derive 952 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:12,760 pretty directly from from Western Christendom. 953 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:17,600 And so it's not my job. It's not to be very clear, it 954 00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:21,360 is, it is not my job to bring Buddhism to the West, to bring 955 00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:25,440 it into into gaming in this way. I can only make the the, the, 956 00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,960 the work that is in my heart, you know, and that resonates 957 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:29,520 with me. And I can bring on people. 958 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:33,560 I can surround myself with people who can help credential 959 00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,000 and and authenticate that effort. 960 00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,800 So I want to be very clear. I do not, I do not consider 961 00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,240 myself sort of some sort of like evangelist. 962 00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,800 You know of these traditions. They are however you're. 963 00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,280 The new Buddhist Messiah of the West, right like that. 964 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,120 Would be. That would be a terrible claim 965 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,560 that I would never make. It is however, very critical to 966 00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,440 who I am as a thinker and as an artist, and so it would be 967 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,920 disingenuous and bad and wrong and just kind of self defeating 968 00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,680 for me to exclude this dimension from my own work. 969 00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:09,560 Yeah, no, I mean it's it's also cool to have just much more 970 00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:14,960 like, God, just stuff that's not Eurocentric race war fantasy, 971 00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:16,680 you know what I mean? Like it's really nice to have 972 00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:21,800 like stuff that's, you know, other other thought processes. 973 00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:26,040 And especially with with not only it, it's not just like, 974 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,280 God, we we could have a 10 hour conversation on all the shitty, 975 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,280 like, quasi cultural stuff that D&D has put out for the past 40 976 00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:35,440 years, right? But like to actually have not 977 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,960 only a creator who has experienced that and has gone 978 00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:40,920 over there and had those discussions, but to be able to 979 00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,600 bring on not one not two, but like multiple cultural 980 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:47,640 consultants to make sure that not only is it, as you said, not 981 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:52,280 offensive to anyone, but like accurate and inspired by yeah, 982 00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,960 written by to actually to actually give you not. 983 00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:57,360 Not. And it's not even just that. 984 00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:00,040 It's it's you're reading it And here is the truth. 985 00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,120 It's that like you are now going to have these generative 986 00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:07,280 processes to create within that space in a correct way to expand 987 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:08,960 on that style of stories as well. 988 00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:10,960 Well, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you. 989 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:16,280 I think shrines could, could have been or might still be more 990 00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:21,720 Buddhist than it is like it. I've been a little a little sort 991 00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:24,680 of negotiating with myself the degree to which shrines should 992 00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:28,360 include that dimension. Like how how Buddhist should it 993 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:29,880 be? Is it like am I going to go out 994 00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,840 and be like that's what this book is and I I've elected to 995 00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:35,600 not do that because I don't feel comfortable making that being 996 00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:37,560 that guy, you know make making that choice. 997 00:51:37,720 --> 00:51:40,080 It is however really resonating with people because of that 998 00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:44,160 novelty. And so I think given the the 999 00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:47,320 like the depth of the cultural consulting bench and and the 1000 00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,680 sort of the interest I'm getting in in response, I might lean 1001 00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:51,200 into it a little more. I might, I might go a little 1002 00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,400 harder on that dimension, but we'll see. 1003 00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,880 You know, if we don't, I think it'll be it'll be something we 1004 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,120 might do in the future, particularly if we if we can 1005 00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:05,400 find an artist, an illustrator from that region. 1006 00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:09,520 If you're listening, if you're, you know, if you are of Tibetan, 1007 00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:12,720 North Indian, Nepali heritage or you're really just anywhere from 1008 00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:15,880 the Buddhist practicing world and you're interested in making 1009 00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:17,400 tabletop role-playing stuff, please hit me up. 1010 00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:18,840 I can't find you. I'm trying. 1011 00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,880 There aren't that many of you, as far as I can tell, and I'd 1012 00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,800 love to work with you. Well, this, this message on this 1013 00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:31,440 show will really get out to like Switzerland and London and some 1014 00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,240 US and I think Brazil. I think we were going to Brazil 1015 00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,360 last year, so. Usuk Canada are definitely our 1016 00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,520 top, our top listeners but if you're if you're out there those 1017 00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:45,240 but we we've definitely, we've definitely got at least one 1018 00:52:45,240 --> 00:52:47,600 person in a lot of places that have listened to at least one 1019 00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:51,640 episode. Well what's interesting I mean 1020 00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:53,560 it's it's an interesting line that you're thinking about 1021 00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,600 following too because like a lot of this project is really based 1022 00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:58,840 on trusting the people that are supporting it. 1023 00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:03,600 So that that line between like how hard do I push into it and 1024 00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:05,960 how hard do I let people come to those conclusions when I've 1025 00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:07,960 already added so much trust into the process. 1026 00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,520 Anyway, is is an interesting line to walk, especially as a 1027 00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,560 publisher. I would think that, you know, 1028 00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:16,240 how much do I trust people to just make those assumptions 1029 00:53:16,240 --> 00:53:18,800 versus how much do I try to make that like a a focal talking 1030 00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:20,240 point, is it? It would be an interesting kind 1031 00:53:20,240 --> 00:53:21,520 of like thought process to go through. 1032 00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,200 Yeah, I I don't think we have the answer yet. 1033 00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:29,280 I I I certainly don't think the press, you know, has any hard 1034 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:30,960 and fast rules about what that is. 1035 00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,560 I will say the name Empty Mountain Nothing Can Die is a 1036 00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:38,360 yarmulke sentiment. Mountains are a actually 1037 00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:42,040 universal cultural symbol for the numinous and the holy. 1038 00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:47,760 They emptiness, obviously as a sort of a description of 1039 00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:51,920 Buddhist description of how, how, how phenomena exists. 1040 00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:55,880 It's not saying that nothing exists or emptiness, that 1041 00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:58,200 emptiness itself exists. It's saying that emptiness is 1042 00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:01,600 the way in which things exist. There are things, they just 1043 00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:03,800 don't exist by virtue of an essence. 1044 00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:06,040 They are empty of their inherent nature. 1045 00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:09,320 They only exist by relationship to other phenomena, which is to 1046 00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:12,360 say are dependently arisen. And I promise that is the, yeah, 1047 00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,280 as much as I will go into that. But but the, the, the sort of 1048 00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:22,880 parenthetical component of the title, Nothing can die is sort 1049 00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:25,240 of an implication of that of that idea, right? 1050 00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:28,840 Where it's like nothing exists at all, right, in the way that 1051 00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:32,160 you would expect it to given what death means. 1052 00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:34,920 Like birth isn't possible, death isn't possible. 1053 00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:37,920 Existing at all is impossible. Like there's that phrase in the 1054 00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:39,360 West. It's like, you know, no one, a 1055 00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:41,200 man never steps in the same river twice. 1056 00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:43,880 The Buddhist version is like, nobody steps in the same river 1057 00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:45,040 once. Like there's no river. 1058 00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:47,240 There's there's there's no you in that. 1059 00:54:47,240 --> 00:54:52,760 In that sense, in in the sense that we mean it, like like I I, 1060 00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,320 I have a soul, right? There is a thing that is me. 1061 00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:59,520 If you were to make a list of all the things that make me up, 1062 00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:02,600 eventually you would find you would find that kernel of of 1063 00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:06,360 substantial being. But that that's specifically. 1064 00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:08,840 That's quite specifically what what the Magyamika dismisses. 1065 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:11,520 It says there is no such. There is no such underlying 1066 00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:13,040 essence. You will just make a list of 1067 00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:16,040 other stuff, and each one of those other things subdivides 1068 00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:18,440 into infinite other things until you just have to stop. 1069 00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:23,160 I so I love the title that and and or the the name of the press 1070 00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,640 and like how much actual depth there is to it. 1071 00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:30,360 But also, like, it's clearly a a specific choice to be like, just 1072 00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:32,920 like pretentious enough to be cool, you know, like. 1073 00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,040 I hope it's cool, yeah. It's definitely pretentious. 1074 00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:39,360 I didn't want to just like make another thing be like such and 1075 00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:42,200 such games, You know, like. Yeah, I know. 1076 00:55:42,240 --> 00:55:45,360 I mean, you know, games of Nervous is not just, you know, 1077 00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:48,680 like Nervous Games publishing House or something, you know 1078 00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:50,560 what I mean? Like there's there's a depth to 1079 00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:55,080 it as well continuing along with like this kind of publisher line 1080 00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,040 not only. So the print process for Shrines 1081 00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:02,320 and I think a lot of your kind of thought process behind the 1082 00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:05,760 actual print process, manufacturing, distribution will 1083 00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:07,960 I assume carry forward. Can you talk a little bit about 1084 00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,200 that because there is a lot of depth to that process as well? 1085 00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:12,960 Yeah, sure. I mean, it just matters to me a 1086 00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,200 lot how the thing feels in your hands. 1087 00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:17,520 If it didn't, I would not be an analogue. 1088 00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:20,800 I'd I'd, you know, focus all the time on video games. 1089 00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:24,880 I'm just, I'm sick of ephemera. I want to hold something and I 1090 00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:26,440 want it to. I want the texture to feel good. 1091 00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:28,240 I want the weight to feel good that. 1092 00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:31,000 Artifact You feel of things, yeah. 1093 00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,680 Yeah, I think, I think I'm really Oding on the Internet. 1094 00:56:34,720 --> 00:56:36,240 I was a techno optimist my whole life. 1095 00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:38,440 You know, I spent, I've spent most of my life in front of 1096 00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:39,480 screens. I'm in front of one right now 1097 00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:43,640 you know and and part of this effort is is to push away from 1098 00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:45,120 that. And so if you're going to do 1099 00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:48,840 that, if you're going to embrace the physicality of the object, 1100 00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:51,880 then I think you materials matter and I think print quality 1101 00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,760 matters. And like you know if we're 1102 00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,440 taking, if we're taking seriously books as art objects, 1103 00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:00,800 which they are and or can be, then I think printing is really 1104 00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:04,040 important. And recent printing is, you 1105 00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:09,160 know, as far as I know the the, the highest quality method, you 1106 00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:12,640 know, it's also far and away the most ecological method. 1107 00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:16,600 The inks are made of rice bran. The printers themselves don't 1108 00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:19,000 have a heating component. They don't they don't use toners 1109 00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:19,600 right. They don't like. 1110 00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:23,760 They don't heat up and in order to apply to it here the ink to 1111 00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:26,440 the page, they do some other thing and it just takes less 1112 00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:30,440 energy, a lot less energy. And the machines themselves just 1113 00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:33,120 like kind of don't break. Toners break after a while and 1114 00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:35,000 they just like produce e-waste and show up in a landfill. 1115 00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:37,960 But it's like literal millions of copies can come out of a 1116 00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,840 single single resale printer. So I'm not saying that we will 1117 00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:46,200 resale print everything, but I am saying that we will care 1118 00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:48,920 about the material itself dramatically. 1119 00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:50,960 The next printing of Sanctum, for instance, will probably be 1120 00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:52,400 resale printed. Just cause like, you know 1121 00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:54,640 earlier printing is getting your feet by figuring it out. 1122 00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:58,280 But it's like I'm I want the, I'd like the, I'd like the pages 1123 00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:03,160 to have like a grain to them, you know, Anyway. 1124 00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:08,000 Yeah, I mean, reader printing obviously feels fantastic. 1125 00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:10,240 And also, I mean, it looks fantastic. 1126 00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:12,680 Even we talked about it. One of the ones we reviewed 1127 00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:16,120 recently was like Obuchon Panic and the brightness and the feel 1128 00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:21,240 that you can get from a nice reader print versus just the ink 1129 00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,400 print. It is gorgeous, feels gorgeous. 1130 00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:25,920 It's a little bit more expensive, but it's fantastic. 1131 00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:27,000 Actually, it's. A lot more expensive. 1132 00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:30,840 Yeah, just a touch, just a bit. It's worth it. 1133 00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:36,160 I'll spend the money, but it's not only the print process too, 1134 00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:38,600 but even the materials you're using to ship as well. 1135 00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:40,280 Yes, exactly. Thank you. 1136 00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:46,720 So we as a press as a publisher, commit to, for all time 100% 1137 00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:49,960 compostable materials for all of our packaging. 1138 00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:53,400 I cannot make that guarantee for like a retailer who might ship 1139 00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:55,120 you our products. But if it comes from me, if I'm 1140 00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:57,280 going to, if I'm going to go down to the desk where I have 1141 00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:02,080 all my set up, I'm going to put it in a Mailer, a bubble Mailer 1142 00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:06,160 made of corn. I bought a bunch of thermal 1143 00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:09,240 shipping label paper. The actual printing label itself 1144 00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:13,400 is compostable compost cardboard already is selected. 1145 00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:14,680 A little structural thing in there. 1146 00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:18,120 It's good to go. I haven't pulled the trigger on 1147 00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:20,600 any compostable bubble wrap yet but I'm probably going to for 1148 00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:23,280 the shrines fulfillment because the books themselves are really 1149 00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:24,640 nice and I want them to arrive nice. 1150 00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:29,200 So yeah, I I just. I just can't imagine. 1151 00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:33,440 I cannot imagine throwing our. I cannot imagine contributing to 1152 00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:34,600 it. I'll plagiarize myself from the 1153 00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:37,160 from the Kickstarter patriot but I cannot imagine contributing to 1154 00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:39,480 our civilizations Trash vortex. I cannot do it. 1155 00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:43,360 It is why would I do that. I want to make art that is good, 1156 00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:48,440 but not at the expense of like our biosphere. 1157 00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:49,640 Why would what? A what? 1158 00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:51,280 A what? A disreputable choice. 1159 00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:55,400 Yeah you know it's it's it's one of those things especially it's 1160 00:59:55,400 --> 01:00:00,120 like a small press it's it's much I don't say it's easier 1161 01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:02,960 it's the right thing to do all the time but you know it's gonna 1162 01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:05,760 make the margin smaller. But you have to look at the the 1163 01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:10,880 how you not just the profit margin but like your margins of 1164 01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:12,680 of everything else. So like ethics, morals, and like 1165 01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:14,920 everything else, the things that you choose to be as a company. 1166 01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:19,520 In order to go those routes and and being able to to choose 1167 01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:23,880 those things thoughtfully and and go in those passes it it's 1168 01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:26,440 great to do especially you know if you're starting like that 1169 01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:28,720 being able to have a consistency of that because you'll be able 1170 01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:31,560 to kind of level that process up versus being like putting a 1171 01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:33,200 million out now and suddenly having to switch. 1172 01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:34,960 So it's nice to It's nice to have. 1173 01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:36,640 Well, thank you. Yeah, I'm we're definitely gonna 1174 01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:38,280 have to scale up a little bit. I don't think my printer is 1175 01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:40,560 gonna be able to handle the volume of even trying 1176 01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:41,960 fulfillment. I'll get a new printer for it. 1177 01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:46,320 Yeah. Listen, this project, it sounds 1178 01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:47,400 absolutely fantastic. I'm. 1179 01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:49,760 I'm really excited to get it. I know you said you were hoping 1180 01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:52,520 for a little bit bigger push at the beginning but as as a as a 1181 01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:56,240 relatively small press and having your first project go on 1182 01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:58,400 Kickstarter, the fact that you're over $5000 going to be 1183 01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:01,640 like the first week Ish is a lot more than a lot of people put 1184 01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:04,520 out on Kickstarter and you got more than three weeks left in 1185 01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:07,880 the project. So you know, plenty of room to 1186 01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:09,560 get to. What I'm really excited for is 1187 01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:12,240 at least, I mean getting all the way through all the stretch 1188 01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:14,720 goals where you can actually make a a contribution to the 1189 01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:16,680 foundation, pay your artist more and things like that's 1190 01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:18,560 fantastic. But I'm getting to the point 1191 01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:21,320 where there's a little bit of foiling on the front at $10,000 1192 01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:24,120 would be really exciting. So plenty of time to get to 1193 01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:24,960 that. So if you're listening, you 1194 01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:26,760 definitely want to make sure you get over to Shrines. 1195 01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:28,760 We'll make sure, obviously we'll make sure like the link to that 1196 01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:31,480 everything is in there. But for for people that are 1197 01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:33,680 looking for empty Mountain, for people that are looking for 1198 01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:37,200 Sanctum, for all of that, where can we find you and that now? 1199 01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:41,720 Well thank you for asking. The press's website is empty 1200 01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:47,040 mountain hyphen NCD for nothing can die.com Empty mountain 1201 01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:51,520 Hyphen ncd.com we. I'm hand fulfilling orders 1202 01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:54,840 because it's just me right now. The the only thing we have for 1203 01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:56,760 sale right now because it's you know again just me and brand new 1204 01:01:56,760 --> 01:02:01,920 is Sanctum and I will ship it to you from my house and you can 1205 01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:05,600 also get if you if you wanted to pick it up from an established 1206 01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:09,200 retailer by all means. It is currently being carried by 1207 01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:12,640 exalted funeral spear, witch and Nave of Cups. 1208 01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:16,040 I believe Nave of Cups put Sanctum in a vending machine. 1209 01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:17,920 In the TPK Brewing vending machine. 1210 01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:20,240 I might make something for that machine. 1211 01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:22,640 What an idea do? It do it. 1212 01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:25,520 I went there a few weeks ago and it's fantastic. 1213 01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:27,960 I'm so happy to hear that and it's like it's Sanctum is 1214 01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:29,200 actually a perfect choice for that. 1215 01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:31,560 Like it's designed for a second bottles of wine. 1216 01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:33,600 Play it in a bar. Please stay with your sit with 1217 01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:35,560 your friends and make up dungeons over drinks. 1218 01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:37,360 I actually kind of want to I've been thinking about been 1219 01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:39,800 thinking about a drinking game one like just like embracing the 1220 01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:45,240 fact that it's four it's four drinking and it's like we have 1221 01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:47,040 we have this idea right in in drinking games. 1222 01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:48,600 Let me just humor me for a second. 1223 01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:50,320 Let's just spit ball. Let's spit ball some design real 1224 01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:53,080 quick. So like, you know in drinking 1225 01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:56,320 games, right, it's a penalty to drink, which is dumb because we 1226 01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:58,520 like drinking. Theoretically we're here to 1227 01:02:58,520 --> 01:02:59,680 drink. If you don't drink, it's fine. 1228 01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:01,400 But like you're probably not going to play this game then if 1229 01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:03,440 you're if you're not drinking. So if you are drinking, you want 1230 01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:06,400 to drink and it should not necessarily be a penalty for it, 1231 01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:10,160 but if it were, the drink should be bad, right? 1232 01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:14,560 So like imagine a game, imagine a a, a, a game you would play in 1233 01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:19,040 the booth at a bar where someone buys at the beginning of the of 1234 01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:20,520 the game. Everyone has, you know the round 1235 01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:25,080 includes XN plus one drinks, where N is the number of 1236 01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:26,560 players. So there's an extra drink 1237 01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:28,000 sitting in the middle of the table. 1238 01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:31,360 And if it's bad that no one wants it, then drinking is a 1239 01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:33,640 penalty. But if it's good and everyone 1240 01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:36,120 wants it, then drinking is like a reward. 1241 01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:39,080 And that's all I've done so far. So as far as I've gotten in my 1242 01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:40,720 thinking, but I think there's something there. 1243 01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:43,960 Well, you know, King's Cup, King's cup is the thing and that 1244 01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:47,240 is your like hodgepodge mix match of everything. 1245 01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:50,080 So by the time you get to wine, whiskey and beer and everything 1246 01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:51,800 in one, it is a bit of a penalty. 1247 01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:52,680 So I've. Heard that? 1248 01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:56,840 I was thinking on the flip of like you cannot drink until you 1249 01:03:56,840 --> 01:04:01,120 do a thing, and that way your rate's not a penalty at all. 1250 01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:03,000 Like drinking is just the reward. 1251 01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:04,880 Right. Yeah, we we can have a whole 1252 01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:07,520 freaking episode just about drinking because sometimes it's 1253 01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:10,040 the volume is the problem. You know, that's that's the 1254 01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:11,800 penalty. Yeah, but. 1255 01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:14,520 Anyway, my point, but the, the, I think the, the, the, the more 1256 01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:17,360 interesting point to say about this is that games should be 1257 01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:21,440 aware of where they are played, context of their play, and they 1258 01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:26,720 should make efforts to not be at odds with, to be conducive with 1259 01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:30,040 those dynamics so that they you actually want to play them. 1260 01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:31,960 Yeah, gotta hit that flow state, you know? 1261 01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:35,720 Gotta get that flow state. But and and also just saying 1262 01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:38,400 Nave of cups, fantastic press. Please go check out nave of. 1263 01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:40,720 Cups of cups. They're fantastic and we've had 1264 01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:42,520 them on the show before. They're both they're both 1265 01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:45,760 fantastic and a great press and I know Hunters actually gone and 1266 01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:48,640 visited the machine so I would if those could pop up everywhere 1267 01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:51,800 that'd be fantastic. But but James listen super 1268 01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:55,400 excited for Shrines If you haven't checked out Sanctum 1269 01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:58,400 definitely go grab that from their website as well. 1270 01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:00,000 But really appreciate you being on here. 1271 01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:04,800 Please come on again and let's have like, no, not a time. 1272 01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:08,600 A time that we need to end by so we can just have like a 10 hour 1273 01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:10,200 conversation on some of the stuff we talked about today. 1274 01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:13,600 Because my goodness, you have no idea how much honor of I have 1275 01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:16,240 struggled not to, to really let this run forever on some of 1276 01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:18,520 those topics. So that's a great discussion. 1277 01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:19,680 Really appreciate you being here. 1278 01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:21,560 Hey, thank you very much for having me. 1279 01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:22,880 I live for these. These are tons of fun. 1280 01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:24,160 Yes. Blessed. 1281 01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:24,880 Yeah. This. 1282 01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:26,480 This is great. I'd be happy to come back on. 1283 01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:27,400 Thank you. Thank you so much. 1284 01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:30,760 Absolutely. So listen in the descriptions 1285 01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:33,360 below everyone that's listening or watching just like always. 1286 01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:36,200 You can find the links to the Empty Mountain website to the 1287 01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:39,080 Kickstarter. Please go back that definitely 1288 01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:42,040 love to hit all those goals and would love to get a press that's 1289 01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:46,320 doing interesting things that the James is trying to do with 1290 01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:49,280 MD press up and running and and and more successful because 1291 01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:51,240 that's definitely the kind of stuff that I I want. 1292 01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:53,320 The reason we started the show is so that we can get more of 1293 01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:55,120 the things that we want and this is what we want. 1294 01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:58,960 So please go support that and you know you know all our link 1295 01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:01,040 to link tree at the weekly scroll. 1296 01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:02,640 So thank you so much for listening James. 1297 01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:06,120 Again thank you so much for being here and that is going to 1298 01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:07,720 be us for today. Bye everybody. 1299 01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:09,200 Thank you everybody.