Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll Podcast.
My name is Ryan. And I'm the other guy.
And joining us today is the one and only Charlie Ferguson.
Avery, how you doing this morning, Charlie?
Doing good. I currently have a cat on my
lap, I'm full of coffee and that is a good start to the day.
That's awesome. Yep, we all love cats here on
the Weekly. Yeah, every single one of us.
There you go. But for those that might, I
don't know anyone that wouldn't, that would watch us, that
wouldn't know who Charlie Ferguson Avery is.
But for those that might not know who the heck you are, what?
What? Who the heck is Charlie Ferguson
Avery? And what might people know you
for? Right, so I am 1/2 of Feral
Indie Studio. We've created a couple of books
including Into the Weird and Wild, Into Possessin, Citadel,
Avid, Knox. We are currently working on a
couple of scenes for this upcoming year.
In addition to the last couple of scenes that we've made
including the big ones off the top of my head would be the The
Vast in the Dark, Verm, Hack They Cry, Monster As The Gods
Demand, and the Weirdly enough Snail.
Fancy our One Adventure module? Hell yeah.
Right there. Yes, yes, classic.
Shockingly beloved by us as well, to be fair.
Oh damn. We, I have a couple, I have a
couple of things from from Farrell Lindy's studio kind of
just sitting around. You know, I'd be a little bit of
a fan of, of Carly Ferguson Avery here on the show.
But but yeah, I, I mean, Avi and Ox is, is one that blew up the
most. But I honestly think the first,
the first thing I saw from you was probably it's probably into
the weird and wild and then and then, Oh man, I don't even have
it with me. I thought I grabbed everything
but your art book for what eventually became Oh my God,
what's the what's the game to do with wedding or I did the art
for? Oh my God, never going home.
Yeah, Never going home. Yeah, I got the art book for
that. Like between that and Into the
Weird and Wild, I was like, dude, this guy, this guy's
crazy. This is incredible.
So. Like Jesus, I keep forgetting
about I there are there never going home is probably as far as
like what I have done that has like reached out like the most
ever going home is it? And I just sometimes completely
forget that I did it because I admittedly it's because I was
just doing the art for it and it didn't quite.
I mean, maybe there's some sort of weird Stockholm syndrome that
comes from like, actually like designing the book top to bottom
that for some reason that sticks in my head a lot more.
Makes sense, yeah. Yeah, but then I.
Definitely entered into like, you know, I'm a big like verm
hack guy. Like I really like verm hack.
I've run several times. I may have questions for you
guys then in regards to So perfect.
You know the plans. Have you seen the episode that
we did of this? Yes, yes, I, I, I was actually
going to do a, an update to it based on I OK, you were talking
about the, the lack of elegance with the three dice versus the
2. And I have been thinking about
that for years now. And I have been trying to, I
want to, I think I will just go back to go back to like 2 dice,
drop the modify, drop the difficulty challenge to 10 and
just call it the call it the lost pages update.
But. Yeah, you.
Can fold in like the Wanderer and what's the other one?
The Marshall? You can do a full book.
Make a 400 page verb hack book. Dude, that's what everyone doing
right now. They're making the 300 page book
out of their really cool lightweight book.
That's not fun. We're just going right back to
the what we we tried to get rid of all those years ago, all
these damn 400 page tomes that we unplug from table to table
and. No, let's keep it in like the
weird small indie skirmish scene.
Like that's where this belongs. Like I agree I.
Agree, I love the little Zine bro.
I do not want a 300 page book most of the time.
Oh God no. It's utterly inaccessible.
And also I I still AM even as a child, like having to lug all
the 3.5 books in a backpack to my friend's house to play games.
I still think my back is recovering from that decades
later. Now.
I won't, I won't do it. I won't do it.
I actually have a standing now whether I hold to this over the
course of my career, I have a standing policy that I will not
make a book over 300 pages. It's very fair.
I mean, so everyone. Thought that way, yeah.
I remember, I mean, there's some games that are like expanding
into larger books that I like doing like I'm really excited
for living the horrors like deluxe edition.
But there's a tool kit like for the most part, like it's widely
just a tool kit. It's not like all it's like,
yeah, it's fucking 300 pages, bro. 150 of them are lore.
It's going to blow your fucking mind, dude.
I'm like OK, cool. I mean, I do.
I think those are the big books that are, that are OK.
I will always, and I know this is not realistic for the world,
especially with like the cost of things.
I will always prefer a bunch of small books than than one big
book. But that's just because my brain
works better in small chunks. Like I, I prefer reading the
physical if I'm just reading the physical.
But when we're doing stuff for like the show, I'll read the PDF
because I can zoom in on like one paragraph at a time and my
brain can absorb one paragraph at a time.
So having to like try to parse and really like take notes and
stuff on like a giant 300 page tone that like, I can't just
like sit back if I can't lay on my back and read the book
without hurting my wrists. Like it's too big of a book to
take notes on. You know what I mean?
Like that's, that's kind of where I'm at.
But but I mean, you've made some, I mean, you've made some
decent sized books. I will say, I mean, this is
these aren't little, these are chunky boys.
Yeah, at 6 by 9 though, 6 by 9, that's.
True. Very acceptable, you know.
It is it. It is a very nice the 6 by 9 for
a hardcover is a fantastic size 8 and half by 11 is a bit much.
But, and these are also, I mean, stunning books to begin with,
but you, you so based on, I mean, especially with all of
this and then vast in the dark, which I have the second edition
somewhere back there in the 1st edition right here.
But you, you have a tendency, I think it looks like to do a lot
of like setting stuff. Like what what makes you like to
do like, you know, into weird and wild obviously is when you
go into the weird and the wild into the set in Citadel, like a
city builder. Vast in the dark is also kind of
like a giant like builder kind of setting thing.
What? What pulls you towards those?
I think funny enough, I was actually answering, I was
answering a question about the OSR last night that that was
going to help me answer this because I started making stuff
for the old school Renaissance and that was like back when like
Google Plus was still a thing in the like mid twenty 10s.
That was the stuff I was attracted to.
I was like attracted to these. I was attracted to the settings
that were being made, not just like, here's a lore dump and
here's names. Here's all this, here is a
toolbox of usable things for playing a game.
And I had always wanted to play a game in a big spooky, scary
forest. And even in all the 3.5 stuff,
all the Pathfinder stuff, there were books on specific like
settings and locations in in universe, but there were not any
books on how does A4, how does a scary force feel?
How does one navigate it? What are the rules for that?
And even in the OSR, there were like, sometimes people would
like touch on it, but there wasn't a book that I wanted.
There weren't rules that I wanted to use.
The closest I came was a book called and you can definitely
see, like, see the DNA from this veins of the Earth, if you've
heard of that. Yeah.
That was Yep, Yep, Yep, Yep. That book was like a bolt of
lightning to me. I still do not own a physical
copy because it was back when it was going for like, I think 60
to $80.00. I will not, Oh no more than that
like. I wish I would have got it for
$6080, let me tell you that. Before Ryan.
I don't even remember. It was definitely, it was
definitely 3 numbers, I'll tell you that.
Yeah, but when I got the PDF, it was like a bolt of lightning.
The art was, you know, scrap Princess.
It was just like, gross and weird and rough and unpolished.
The writing for it was also equally bizarre, but it was
immediately usable and interesting.
And I wanted to make something like that, but I wanted my big
scary forest. And so then I just like, you
know, took all the inspiration of like everything that like I
wanted from a book, like everything I wanted while
exploring a big scary forest. And I put that into In the Weird
Wild. I did all the drawings in
between my lunch breaks while I was working the job I was at.
And that was actually my first publication.
Hell yeah. Was into the weird wild like I
didn't. I didn't even do scenes before
that. Damn.
And. Wow.
Yeah, I which to be fair, like I had done an art book ahead of
time through Kickstarter, so I didn't know how that worked.
I was working a job at a newspaper, so I knew I, you
know, had thousands of hours of practice doing layout.
I had access to Indesign. I came from art school.
So like, I, you know, I could do my own artwork.
It was, I'm not going to say it was easy because it wasn't that.
But like, I had all the tools I needed to make that book and
make it happen. And then it fucking exploded.
And now I have a career doing that.
So, yeah. So to answer the question of
like why I'm drawn to that is that's what's, that's what was
interesting to me. That's what I like making.
That's what comes easily. And also, if I'm going to make
something for somebody else to use, I want to make something
that is a toolbox that can be used and setting books just
happen to be very usable for anyone at the table.
Yeah, absolutely. It's funny, as you were talking,
as soon as you started talking about like 2010 G+ and stuff, I
was like veins of the Earth, like popped into my head.
I almost even said it. And then you were like, Oh yeah,
veins are there. So I was like, Yep, that's
definitely was going. To go, Did you?
Did you? Did you happen to know that
there's going to be a Veins of the Earth redex coming out next
year? No, I did not.
I will. I would have to snap myself a
copy. The, the the False Machine
newsletter sent that out like like a week or two ago.
They said there's a whole big thing that says vain.
See there, the Redux and I freaked the fuck out.
So very, very excited, excited for that.
But yeah, and then and then Vast in the Dark is probably the next
one that I really saw from you that I fell in love with and
then obviously went to your store and bought everything and
saw VRMAC and then, you know, went from there.
But Vast in the Dark one and two kind of talk about that a little
bit of like, you know, you made number one and then number 2
came out bigger and and even more gone on with that.
So what made you, you know, we've already talked about kind
of like the setting book a little bit with Veins in the
Dark, but what made you want to go from 1:00 to 2:00 with that?
For that one it was the initial Zine, so it was just Zine size
was about as bare boned as I could get it.
It's I think only 28 pages or something like that or I might
have tried to cut it down to 24. How many it was in your hand?
Let me take it out of the protective plastic because this
one definitely deserves it. I can tell you right now it is
exactly. Technically it says 25 pages.
OK, so it's 2828 so I must have not counted the chapters when I
was laying it out. Anyway, that one was bare boned
and I tried to make it as like concise and polished as I
possibly could. That meant I couldn't fit a
whole lot of artwork into it. I think I did like, I think I
tried to fit. I had a decent amount, but there
was so much more that like I wanted to explore.
But when I was making it, I won. I was working my day job at the
time and I like mothership had come out and like I had saw seen
what like Sean McCoy did with like fitting as much information
as he could into an actual scene format.
And like I wanted to do that too.
I didn't want to like I I didn't want to just like fill pages
with like stuff that like I thought nobody was going to
read. I didn't want to like I didn't
have room to put the artwork in. So the reason I did the bigger
one was because I it was AI was being indulgent.
I wanted to do more artwork for it.
I wanted to like show off more factions.
I wanted to put this like weird end game area and I wanted more,
you know, magic monsters, you name it.
And unfortunately, well, not unfortunately, but I did have to
scale up to 8 1/2 by 11 in order to fit all that in.
So yeah, that's why I did it. It was I, I was giving myself a
treat. Well, you kind of give us all a
treat. It is a wonderful, wonderful
book. I mean, I wish I could, it
should be right there, but I get it might be over there, but I
can't. That's the one I couldn't find
for my stack. But yeah, I mean, it is, it's
it's bigger, it's better, it's more and but it also, the first
one's fantastic. But I, I, I think it needed all
that extra stuff. I'm very glad that you decided
to be a little bit indulgent with it the first.
One was tight that I will say that it was probably the
tightest publication I've ever done.
Like, yeah. That's a cool.
Thing to expand on though, you know.
No. And you're also now doing is, is
the Kickstarter over for it at this point?
Because I know you're it's kind of like a reprint, kind of like
a little bit of a for into this for assessment Citadel.
So oh, for Cess and Citadel yes, so that is that's being run by
wedded games. That's part of the reprint.
I kind of wish I could say more on that, but I have been very
hands off with that. Not in a bad way, but just like
I mean we're working on the 3rd book right now and immediately
it's in very good hands. Like it's it is a Co published
title. Like, you know, wedded games
knows what they're doing and I'm actually admittedly kind of
grateful that somebody else is like taking charge of all that.
Like I don't want to, I don't want to worry about shipping.
I've done my time, I've done the I've done the like 2000 backer
or maybe not 2000, but like over 1000 backer kickstarters.
I've shipped everything out of my living room before.
I, I'm ready to just just work on the books and ship the ones
that we already shipped from our house.
I, I don't have a kitchen. I I, I don't have a dining room
like it's just full of. This is like a classic, like
indie TTRPG like maker thing is like, yeah, like just one room
in the house is just just all full of boxes of this game.
And then. Oh yeah.
When I say like, Oh well, I actually have to go like do
inventory down at the warehouse. What I mean by that is the
entire side wall of the dining room that we have set this like
admittedly, well, this bears this bear's saying my like Co
partner in Feral Indy Studio, Alex Coggin.
I would not be where I am now. Feral Indy Studio would not be
where it is now without the work that she has put in in shipping,
organizing and I would say like putting in like the important
work while also being a incredible painter and
illustrator. Like, so, you know, go Alex.
There you go. Yeah, absolutely.
Well, because I mean, and, and then Brian is also, who is Brian
Ferguson Avery? Oh, that's my dad.
Because you you've put out some stuff from Brian Ferguson Avery
as well. Yes, that is, that's actually he
published that himself. I if he wanted that cover, he
got that cover. Which you're obviously very
happy about. I just think that I am a
professional illustrator and that I because I've done, I have
actually illustrated one of his titles before.
He did a short story called Lean Town that is fantastic and I did
the cover for that and I love that cover and I think for rough
jointed beasts I could have done a excellent cover for that as
well. And also, admittedly, this is
not his fault and a lot, not just him, but like everyone
every yes, there it is. Everyone who's been using Mix AM
has been finding out that their quality has been dropping not
with like the stapled scenes, but with the like perfect bound
books. Like when when he ordered those,
about half of them were like falling apart by the time that
we got them. And so, yeah.
And so we actually had to, I believe he got like a refund for
most of it. And so the ones that you are
receiving are the ones that were like the binding was intact.
So if we ever reprint that, one, I'm doing the cover, and two,
I'm going to find a a printer and binder that will actually do
it justice. You're like a really prolific
artist. Not to segue to another thing,
but you're like a really incredibly prolific artist.
You have like like what, like 7 or 8 like art packs for people
to use on your itch. Was that just like surplus art
that you had that you wanted to get out or you just like, is
that just because I know you can use them for like small
publishing and stuff? Is this the way you were trying
to support like smaller creators?
Yeah, actually the latter I and I think it's especially
important now with like all the AI slot that's coming out that
you know, affording an artist to do Commission artwork is
sometimes completely out of the cards.
It's why a lot of people have found like ways around it by
using like public domain artwork that I love or using AI art,
which I despise. And at the time it was before AI
was a thing, but I, and so now it's kind of even more
important. But yes, I wanted to give
creator something that like for 25 bucks you can get, you know,
it's maybe not, might not be everything that you want, but at
least like there's some good art there and I would like to really
release more of those. I just, I've been really busy
with this third book. Makes sense, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it's really, I mean, like you said, that's
super important. I know there's people and I and
I bookmark them every time, but people that have whole threads
on blue sky of like here's resources for like there's a
million reasons not to use AI and here's free fonts or or free
slash, really inexpensive packs of art assets.
Like I know you have a ton, Perplexing Ruins has a ton.
Like there's a lot of stuff in this scene that when you mix it
with with the public domain stuff, there is zero.
There is zero reason to, to keep destroying the world and society
in your brain and everything with fucking generative AI.
Like it's, it's it's inexcusable if you're in any creative space
whatsoever. But at the end of the day, AI is
class warfare. So fucking stop, you know, Yeah,
we'll, we'll stop. We'll stop that right there.
So, so third, so third book that you've mentioned, are you like,
can you, can you, can you talk about that?
Oh yeah, it's it's so title is into the Sultan surf and it is
all about a haunted coastline and surviving an apocalypse.
And by that I mean that like, OK, we'll get into the weeds a
bit. The book is in four parts.
The first part is sort of all about like generating the
generating the coastline, the general rules for the coastline,
the monsters, maybe some of the magic.
Second part of the book is sort of delving into the coastline.
So there is a point crawl system for entering into the deep
ocean. There are coastal delves which
sort of represent the dungeons that periodically flood larger
monsters, how you hunt larger monsters, mechanics for that.
And then the third part of the book is called The Storm and it
is all about the apocalypse that comes to the shore.
It can come in multiple forms. There are portents for it.
There's a book by Wizard of the Coast 3.5 called Elder Evils,
which is all about putting like end game apocalypses in your
game. It's incredibly thematic.
I don't really know how usable it is or if anyone was able to
really use it for their games, but that is something that I
wanted to put in this book of, you know, you're actually
preparing for this storm that's going to come.
And then finally, the 4th part of the book is all right, all
that stuff that you've generated, all the stuff that
you've created, all these NPCS that you might have made
connections with. Let's see who survived.
Let's see what survived and let's see what changed.
And yes, I came up with this idea after COVID so.
Perfect. Yeah.
And also, like, I mean, I don't want to get to, I don't want to
wax too poetic with this. But like, this is, you know, the
last book in the series I, you know, plan to keep making like
tabletop role-playing games. Maybe I'll pivot into video
games if I can ever find a coder that would want to work with me.
But, you know, I don't really know what's next.
This has been, you know, this has been the plan for the last
10 years, these three books. We're not doing a desert book.
Contrary to what a lot of people say, we are not doing a fucking
desert book. Why not?
What? What?
Why not the desert? What the desert?
Don't. Know anything about deserts I I
barely know anything about coastlines I.
Well, deserts are dry, and they're usually full of giant
worms from every other desert setting book I've ever read.
Sam Sorensen already released a desert book that's way better
than anything I could ever come up with.
It's, you know, just go to that. I damn I wish I could remember
the name of it. Sand.
Sand yes, it's incredible. Just go, go read that.
That's. But yeah, no, this is like the
last book in the series and I'm not really sure what's next.
So I guess it's kind of fitting that it ends with the end of the
world in a fashion. That's pretty cool.
I like that. You know, I think that's that's
very thematic. Well, you know, outside of the
the setting books that you have and and obviously the third one
you're working on, you do have Ave.
Knox, which which is this, this beautiful two books right here.
What's funny is I backed this one and then just wanted the art
for this so bad that I think I grabbed this copy of either.
I think Gen. Con I grabbed it because I was
like, it's so good. But when the special edition is
like every book does this where it's like cool, beautiful thing,
but man, look at the art on that guy right there.
It's you could have just asked me for a copy, no?
So, but so that's a that's like a mega dungeon adventure thing,
which which also, you know, mega dungeon adventure, it'll kind of
let you do a little bit of the setting stuff too, because you
you build out this whole place. So what is that kind of how you
moved into doing Avey Knox was in the same color vein, but
being able to make it a little more playable or what was
impetus for for Avey Knox? Well, everybody was doing back
attentions at the time and not I don't say that cynically.
I say that in I was like fascinated with the idea of it
and it was like, I kind of knew, like, all right, this is going
to be like a lot more work than a setting book, But that's OK.
I'm a, you know, I'm a big boy game designer at this point.
Like I've I've cut my teeth with two books.
I've got all these scenes. I can do this and Ave.
Knox I that thing still haunts me to this day because.
Well, OK, to answer the question, like I moved into it
because like I wanted to make a mega dungeon.
I like had seen the mega dungeons that were coming out
and I thought like, I wouldn't be cool if I were to do this
from the perspective of an art historian.
I took a bunch of like art histories in school.
Technically I should have minor, but the accreditation wasn't
there with my school. So anyway, yeah, I mean, for
what? Like, Oh, great.
I have an art historic like I have a minor in art history.
What's that got to do for me? Hey.
Good job at the museum, you know.
Maybe, but like I don't want to fine, I guess like I no, the
important part was that I got to learn what I did and I still
hold that appreciation. The the minor doesn't mean
anything, but yeah, I made it because I wanted to make a mega
dungeon and then I started making it and it sucked.
And that I like, I wish I could say I was like proud of that
book, but there are so many things that like I wish I could
add to it or fix, but I was so burnt out by the time I finished
that book with like the balancing, the editing, the IT
was something that like I hadn't actually like really done
before, which was like a large form module.
And yes, it is a setting after a fashion.
And yes, there is like a story and there's lore and I tried to
show that off. But at the end of the day, it
was like a slog writing all of those writing all of those
blocks, blocks of text, all the like monster entries, having a
lacrosse reference, like, you know, a scaling how much
treasure there should be. And then also in the big
picture, things like kind of failing to create a dynamic
environment. I think it was like idle
cartlery. Cartulery.
I'm mispronouncing that word. They did, yes.
They did a review of it where they God damn it.
That's the best one. I'm trying all.
Charcuterie right now, That's right, yeah.
I I know the word, I know what it means, I just can't.
I just, I've never heard it out loud anyway.
But they made the point where like all the the monsters and
the enemies in the book are basically goombas.
They sort of exist as like Rd. box roadblocks to be overcome
with violence. And they are not wrong.
And I kind of wish I could have, like I said, created a more
dynamic environment within the dungeon itself.
I wish I could have made the settlement of sheer on top more
dynamic and changing and half points of interaction.
But, you know, like I said, I was so burnt out by the time I
finished that book, so yeah. Well, I think when you do Ave.
Knox 2, the return of Solaris Rex or whatever that'll be,
that's your chance to you know. Yeah, I I think I would just do
I I would just do a different mega dungeon and take what I
have learned and also, well do it in a way that I should make
it not the way I think it should be made.
It's that's it's not no point getting into that right now.
It's 2 into the leads I. Very fair, very fair.
I, I enjoy it. I think, you know, it's mega
dungeons. I'm not an adventure guy, kind
of to begin with. We've talked about that on the
show. Yeah, that he's the adventure
guy. But I, I like mega dungeons for
exactly as setting books basically, and then just being
able to do it on my own. So I really enjoy Alvin Knox,
partially because I would never run it as written, but like the
vibes are Immaculate and it's got a, it's got a lot of really
incredible stuff in there. So I I'm a fan, but you know, I
can, I can see what you're saying.
And then one of the other things you worked on which which might
be our favorite thing. The only thing you know we've
talked about for you actually. Oh please, yes.
So please let us talk about verm hack I love.
Verm hack Let me just I really enjoy verm hack.
So where the heck did this come from?
That was I wanted to make a skirmish game.
I. Very skirmish, good job.
Yes, yeah, yes. And now admittedly, like I also
like I wanted it to work as a role-playing game as well.
But in practice and how I play it, it is a skirmish game.
So yes, this has been like a little passion project that I've
been working on. I will admit, yes, I was
inspired by Vermes, which is why it's called Verm Hack.
And probably if I end up doing something larger with it, I may
change the name. But like now, I've just been
using Verm Hack so often that I might have to stick with that.
Yes, I wanted to make a skirmish game and I had all these ideas
for skirmish games. I had things that I liked from
skirmish games. I had things I didn't like and I
have been trying, it's a living document and I've been trying to
suss out a feel of a game through this that I, that I want
to play. Yes, I, I have some aspirations
for like perhaps like combining them all into a book, doing like
a large release. But ultimately, this is a game
that I want to play, and I have been going mad over the last
couple of years in a good way, trying to like sort of figure
out like what mechanics would work best for it.
You know it's funny. Quick aside John from Breitbart
games, super random story. I got on a plane to packs on a
connection in Chicago and John from Breitbart.
I don't know if you know you know him, but he's a person in
the industry was the last person to get on the plane ended up
sitting next to me. So it was cool to know someone
on the way there. But we were talking about his
game that he's working on and he when I got to a point in it,
there was a word in it and it was like it was something like
poop Dee doop or poopy something or whatever.
And I was like why the fuck does this say that?
And he was it's like, because I don't want to get tied to
whatever name I name it. I want to come up with a better
name later. And there's no way I would ever
just be like, Ah, fuck it, good enough for like poop Dee Doop or
something like that in the book. So when you said I'm kind of
stuck with Verm hack now a it's great, but BI was just like,
yeah, if I ever do a game like that again, I'm definitely
naming it like, yeah, poopy pants or something so I don't
get fall in love with the name. But anyway, Verm hack.
I also wanted to say like, what do you you guys like about it
out of curiosity? Everything.
All of it the, I mean, we did a whole a whole episode about it
because we loved it so much. First of all, I mean, the vibes
are fucking Immaculate. Like, I mean, you definitely get
inspired by Vermus a bit from it, but I don't feel like it's
in any way, shape or form derivative of Vermus.
I mean, who wasn't immediately inspired by Vermus when they
write it first time? Plastaboo fucking killed it.
But I so I'm a big I've been thinking about this a lot
lately. Like I'm not like a if we, if we
go to like GNS, whatever. Like I'm not a simulationist
with my games. I like my games to feel like
games. I like my role-playing games.
I still feel like I'm playing a game.
I I versus, you know, the kind of role-playing games that feel
like you're just giving like RP prompts all the time, which is,
which is a valid form. It's just I prefer games that
still feel gamey, which is why I've kind of been shifting into
skirmish and I felt like Verm hack felt like a very good
straddle of the line where it felt like to me, it definitely
read more as a role-playing game that you can lean skirmish in,
but it still felt gamey, which is exactly what I want for my
role-playing games to be is I want to still feel like I'm
playing a game and then have the opportunity to role play versus
the role play is the game. So that's that's one of the
parts of it that I really, really loved a lot is is the
skirmish aspects made it feel gamey.
But then when you throw fucking Charlie Ferguson Avery art on
top of it, like how are you not going to love it?
You know what I mean? And then just just the vibes are
out. It just I'm such an adroit piece
of shit. So like all the darker creepy
stuff in there. I'm just a yes, like feed me
Charlie. Like that's what I felt the
entire time. What about you, Hunter?
I, you know, so we ran 2 sessions.
I think we ended up like a session and a half.
We ran I I turned the first like several chapters of Between 2
Fires. Would you have if you haven't
read? I've complicated feelings about
that book. I have.
Yes, I. Like yeah, me too.
The. Same final third is.
Not ready to be as upsetted by that book as I absolutely was
reading through it. And also, I feel like it tapers
off at the end, but yeah, I was. Gonna say the final the final
third is a bit and the. Beginning of it is like this.
It's a fantastic and yeah, I think just like the the skirmish
aspect of combat, because my group, we've been playing so
many like OSR adjacent. I'm add that to the counter like
games and like it's fun and everything.
And the lot of those, you know, the combat is not like super
like filled out, but they are really great RPGs.
And this really made like my table was like, oh, OK, cool.
I have these options in combat and I can really like engage in
combat. And it feels like like that's
part of like the role-playing and like the actual fun of The
thing is like how many options you have for combat and what you
can do. Also, I just like how weird and
dark it is, you know? I, I will admit, like I, I like,
like I said, like Verbis was a huge inspiration, but also I
have been trying to lean into this like, for lack of a term,
like, I know it's a meme, but 80s dark fantasy style artwork,
lots of like pencil work. I've I've been, I've been
practicing my stippling with pens and yes, like, and like, I
know I'm not going like, I'm not trying to make furnace.
I'm definitely inspired by it. And I know like, as soon as I
like start making, it's going to look, it's going to look like
what I do. And but yes, I'm glad to hear
that. Also on the topic of combat, the
next expansion is going to have something called Marshall.
Like Marshall. I'm still trying to figure out
the name, but like Marshall forms where like I don't want to
do classes. So instead you can actually
learn these abilities that give you additional options in combat
at the cost of strain. Because why should spellcasters
have all the fun with like all these sort of like weird
options? I feel like that's been
something that like like the OSR still does that where like magic
users have these additional options, combat user or melee
physical combat users don't. And I want, since melee combat
is such a integral part of this game, I want to make that
interesting and important. Still figuring that out.
But that's the plan. And I'm glad to hear that that
is like a a point of interest. Like adding on to like weapon
abilities, which I thought were like a good, like a really
strong like part of this and like weapon criticals.
I think it made weapons feel very fun.
But yeah, I think I think some more options for Marshall
classes would be cool as well. Marshall spell casting.
You know, except you know except, except not, but you
know. It's we'll say, art wise.
I mean, so besides the fact that cover and my gosh, that green,
what a perfect, what a perfect choice for it.
But that the first page right here, like even just for the
vibe, setting off the entire thing, it's such an incredible
piece that really did kind of set the tone for the entire
game. But are you a video game person
at all? I have to say yes out of
curiosity. So well, so I'm, I'm a, I'm a
metroidvania person. I played some soul stuff and I I
don't mind this whole stuff, but the thing that I'm not the
biggest fan of with souls like, and maybe I'll come to a point
with this. I hate ticky tack stat stuff
like they're out games. Like I hate being like, oh man,
these boots give me +2 to fire resist, but then I lose plus one
to this or that. But then you look at something
like Blasphemous, which is more a Metroidvania where you just
go, OK, like I unlocked this ability that now my sword swings
like twice as far or I get double jump or something like
that. The way you're talking with
Vermag, it gave me kind of like more of those feels where it's
just like, I don't want to do a class, I don't want to do all
this other stuff, but I want to give people options by maybe
giving them like this or giving them that.
Like giving something that feels like a spell but isn't that
immediately goes Ding Ding Ding in my head where I'm like fuck
yeah. Like give me something that's
cooler without making it more fucking complicated or make me
have to like, you know, pick which one is like slightly
better than the other for this or that, like.
I, I do not like percentages in games.
I, I, I think we are, it's a, we're, we're playing the game
about Dragons and, you know, Wizards and warriors.
Why do we got to bring algebra into it?
Someone who loves math. To be fair, I like no like I yes
yes agreed. Awesome.
So but then and and maybe you said it and maybe I was like,
you know, disassociating at the time.
But so skirmish, I mean, you obviously you've been doing T
turbies for a long time and you talked about, you know, G+ air
back in the early the mid twenty 10s.
What really pulled you into wanting to do not only the
skirmish frame, but like the skirmish scene and everything
just in general, just like, was it like the combat aspect of it?
Was it wanting to make your own? Like what really pulls you
towards that and what what what kind of games you've been played
lately in the scene? I think like it's a combination
of everything, especially in like the indie skirmish scene,
like one of my favorite artists and I will call her an artist.
Gardens of Hecatee, Anna. Yes, I think the last name is
yeah. Yes, incredible stuff all
around. Then there's mold, mold, mold
and let me think like totally not panicking, manic, that whole
circle and various circles. Miscast and and all of those
freaking big like clan farm, Yeah.
Yes, like I like that's something that I want to do.
Like I love, you know, I love the role-playing games.
I do. I love the setting books and
stuff, but that is something that is just like.
Well, it kind of goes back to what you said where it's it's a
game. It feels like a game because it
is a game and it plays like a game And I have had there's so
many like great moments of like fun playing board games and
skirmish games feel much more like board games.
I think like I like role-playing games too, but it's a different
feel. And so, but anyway, back to
answering the question. I I just want to do all of it.
Like hell, I've even started like sculpting minis here and
there, not even really for like not because I have some big plan
of like, Oh yes, perhaps I'll do like a release of these in white
metal or something like that. But just because that is an this
is my hobby and it's something that I want to make my own.
And I yeah, like times are tough.
So like I do have to release Verm hack like, and I kind of
prefer if people pay for it because I am doing like artwork
for it and a lot of work goes into it.
But truthfully, if I could get away with it, I would just make
this thing like a living document that I play and I
release and I perhaps like go to conventions and sell physical
copies of the scene. But more I want to make a game
that just feels good to play for me and feels good to play for
other people. And so that's kind of why I'm
breaking in. It's it's my hobby and it's fun
and as far as games I have been playing, I've been tapping into
a little bit of like 5 leagues in Borderlands for some solo
play. Recently played Trench Crusade
and I I like it. Some complicated feelings about
it as a whole for that I don't really even think it's worth
getting into right now, but it was fun.
Are you sure? I God, I don't know, it's.
Your time bro, you know. How are you going to
mechanically, it's very swingy. It is almost like senselessly
grim. I well, you know what?
No, I think I'm going to park it right there just for like talk
to me in person and this. Is all from conversation.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, this is important.
It's the. Grim part so.
Yeah. But yeah, I I think that's
pretty much it. Like honestly I've been working
a lot so I haven't had that much time to play like.
You know, you know what you you know what you got to try.
Oh Aldrin death cutting stone like.
Oh yeah? Well, I mean, yeah, that that
too you. Didn't even plug your own game.
You plugged somebody else's game?
I'm not going to plug my own game like that's that's that's
how this works. I may I finally made a thing
that exists and I'm just going to pretend it never did.
And if people find it cool, it's kind of how I feel about the
show. But no, but but for real though,
I I mean you, I've been obsessed with cauldron.
I played it like a couple times already this week.
I played it like two or three times again next week, like, you
know, hill giant games with big boy game time and and white
Tiger tablecraft are are fucking killing it.
So we'll have to we'll have to get you into TTS and and play
some cauldron. I think it would.
Be a different that I I have been keeping that in my sights
and yeah, there's. Also.
Another game either they released or somebody connected
to the released. I oh, what was it called?
You play as like a bunch of like mechs from like a junkyard or
something and. There's Mech 28, there's Flames
of Orion, there's. Flames of Orion, it's part of a
scene called like boss fight or something.
Oh big boy Game Time put out the boss fight scenes.
That's it, yes. OK, then it is, yes.
But yes, I would love to like Auldron.
Yeah, I, I literally my, my next golden Tabletop Simulator is to
build a map for, for all of the original 12 scenarios in the
book. So anytime you want to hop in,
we we, I'm trying to get a campaign going.
So we'll see how that goes. Yeah, that's the oh, that's the
the Holy Grail of playing like a skirmish game in my mind, like I
was. I will admit I was debating my
as I friend and I were debating playing a a campaign of Trench
Crusade that had I will admit that had less to do with the
game itself and more I just really enjoy playing games with
them So but no, I would love to at some point I would love to do
A and which is why I'm working on it for Verm hack a campaigns
like an actual series of games as part of a campaign in a
skirmish game and I despite being 32 years old, I still
haven't gotten that yet like. You're the youngest person in
this chat right now, so you know, Yeah, you.
Know it's just plenty of time. I guess, but I'm a I'm a
designer. God damn it, Like I thought that
just. I'm a doctor, God damn it.
Yes, yes, like I, you know, imagine being a surgeon and like
you haven't actually like cut open anyone yet.
Like it just feels. It feels wrong like.
Well, hey, listen, if you ever want any opinions on any Verm
hacks you absolutely can ask. We will.
We will give them so yeah. And I've actually played it so.
Yeah, I'm not a very opinionated guy.
Most people say that I'm not. But you know, if you ask me,
I'll, I'll let you know. The biggest?
I also just want to see more verm hack.
I'm just this is just a way for me to get in to see Verm hack
shit, so there. You go the I will say this about
Verm hack, the two things that I'm currently working on.
So one is an expansion called it's either going to be called
conflict or Bloodlust. And that is all about rules for
doing like balanced, balanced skirmishes, like, you know,
fully competitive. They're going to be rules for
additional combat maneuvers part of like the the not classes.
And then I think a few more scenarios.
Then the last expansion is going to be called Delve.
And that is all about sort of like some dungeon crawling and
potentially campaign rules for how you how you could play firm
hack in like a world either competitively or cooperatively.
Cool. In addition to like also there's
going to be more magic and gods and all that.
The gods are my favorite thing to design.
The gods. Yeah.
The gods are nice and freaky. We do appreciate how how weird
they are. They're very good.
So it's. Just like meat.
Like just. Yeah, the one that's just like a
torso. Yeah.
Salg Salg, the body. That ends up being the what's
the term for it that that is the control for like how the rest of
the gods are to be designed. Cool.
Yeah. Like like Mario and Super Smash
Brothers, you know, that's the, that's their, that's their one
when they're that's, that's like what everything else based off
of. But yeah.
Wait, really? Yeah.
Totally. Mario is like like the base for
all stats and for how all mechanics work and everything is
a variation off Mario. So yeah.
Did you know ride on is that for Pokémon?
Ride On was the first Pokémon I ever created and they used it as
a base for for like everything. Cool.
Hell yeah. Yeah, hey, good little Pokémon
trivia. You know, that's what the show's
for. That's.
I would love to speak for Vermach more option like some
like kind of options for like Lords that you serve, because I
think that that's like a really cool small part of like the
current Vermac because there's like the service to a Lord
section and it's like so interesting.
And then, like, the narrative implications are really
interesting, especially if you serve a Lord who's like a
degraded piece of shit, you know, which none of us would
know anything about that. No, no, we've never we've never
had a we've never had a boss that was just a loathsome
parasite. But I OK, yeah, I will have to
add that I also there and this it like, I think it's worth like
bringing up to you guys is the the one thing I am planning for
the campaign is actually about fighting against Lords and how
they represent existential threats to the world.
And it's like, really? That's Gary Courage so.
I mean, it's like the whole of course, like that's the whole
stick is like this is just be dealing with my angst with the
world of like, OK, you. Know like there's a, like
there's a level of true honesty and relatability to like that,
that I think that would resonate really well, you know?
Yeah, so on one hand, I do like, I actually really do love that
idea that like some Lords give you like certain perks, but then
I think to balance it, they would also give you certain
drawbacks. And that at least like
mechanically balances them. But like also moralistically I
do want options for like, you don't have to serve a Lord
because fuck them. That's yeah, I think now those
are good options. Yeah.
I mean, I just like, I love the idea of like being sworn to a
Lord that like, you get a lot for it, but he's like, yeah, go
slaughter this town, you know? And you're like, oh fuck, I
cannot do that. Yeah.
It's like, sure, Yeah, cool. What do I get?
Yeah. You have to, like, make these,
like, moral decisions and, like, OK, like, as my character.
Or am I like a good person that like, sees the value in life and
will turn against this Lord if I need to?
You know, Yeah. That is, I am not going to call
it a failing of mine, because I don't think it is.
But like I it is, I remain incapable of designing games of
like true villainy. In that regards, that's a hard
thing to hold on to, though, because it's like you have to go
to a dark place that you're not comfortable being in and talk
about actions that you're no one would reasonably do.
Well, I mean, none of us humans don't look at our government.
Yeah. Like, that's a really hard
space. It's a pretty space to hit
correctly without being like, like, awful frankly, you know?
Yeah, and it also I don't. Put slaughtering a town in that
one, you know. Yeah, and it actually.
Inspired by Hunter. Oh God.
Yes, yes. Oh, yeah.
So here's the Hunter update. It's all about like, you know,
all right, so there's this like, you know, tech tree of like how
many towns you slaughter and how many slaughter, you actually get
perks based on that. Look at all the money.
Like yeah. Then you got to go.
Then you got to go build data centers, you know?
But I think like, yeah, they're these rebels.
And then like, yeah, they just want to be fed, you know?
That's why they're rebels. It's like your Lord sends you to
quell this rebellion because he's holding food from the
masses. You know?
I'm like can. I just make a couple of notes.
Yeah, dude. Hey, listen, this is take it.
It's fine. If I end up using this for
anything, I still will. So you know there.
You go but. I might also tap you guys to
play test it at some point. Who?
Knows like I would. Be at this point I'll be
insulted if you don't. Yeah, please.
I don't. Know I just, I feel I feel bad
asking people for work. I mean, Oh no.
It's not. Work.
That's fun. Yeah.
Fair. Enough.
Fair enough. Like, yeah, that would be a joy
to do. Also, the space is like, you
know, it's about like, creating like these fun games and this
experience and like, like, yeah, creators should be paid.
But like, also, like we all, in our own ways, kind of lend our
energy to the space for free. Ryan and I do this show just to
bring attention to stuff. You know, you release art packs
for like a very affordable price for like a lot of like really
great art that also support the space, like doing a play test to
help support a thing that we already like.
Is it really like work in the same way as like me going and
clocking? I would never work for free from
my boss, you know? Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, not
all time has to be commodified, like not all hobbies have to be,
you know, and it might be like work for you, but it's hobby for
us to to play the games. I mean, you know, and This is
why we're like this too. Like this is the fun part for
us. We get to talk to, you know,
someone who we generally very deeply like enjoy their work and
and respect them as a person and as an artist.
So like this is this is this is the fun part.
This is why we're not monetized because this is the fun part,
you know, like so. Well, now I'm getting bashful,
but no, genuinely, I appreciate that and likewise to you guys
like also he just had Robbie on not too long ago not to like.
Yeah, we did. The whole I was chatting with
the whole Hinterlight team or Gossamer Coast over there, Yeah.
Fair enough? Well, I, well, I, I hate to end
on this beat, but like I, I do have to go in a little bit, but
I did want to say like, I, oh, thank you for having me on.
And this has been like really fun to talk about it.
And I'm also like, I'm, I'm so glad to be able to talk about
verb hack because I like, I'm not going to say the rest of the
stuff that I do is just work because I, I'm very passionate
about that and I love it too. But Verm Hack is, like I said,
it's it's I'm doing that because it's my hobby and I love it and
I look forward to sharing more of it.
Yeah. Well, hey, listen, in the
future, if you would win and if you do release more Verm hack
stuff, please come back on and we'll talk about it some more.
You have a lot of really great stuff that we didn't even touch
on. We even talked about like, what
am I thinking of? What am I blanking about?
As the God demands, as the gospel.
I love that one. That's actually.
Fun. I love hacking clerics to not be
clerics and have to make big sacrifices to do cleric shit.
Yeah, just so you know, I do have several of your books, but
my bookshelf is currently blocked with boxes because we
moved in like a month and a half ago and haven't unpacked
everything. So.
One day I I can't get away from them at this point they fill in
the space so. Sort of like every minute they
sort of get closer and. Yeah, no, yeah, they do.
They really do. But no, seriously, thank you so
much for coming on again. Like please, please come on
again anytime. Just hit me up and come, come
play the game on the stream. Come talk about the game on the
stream, you know, permanent invite to just, I mean, come on
once a month. I don't care.
Like, you know, we, we love your stuff.
You're, you're genuinely wonderful.
So we really, really appreciate you coming on the show.
I. Appreciate that.
And, and, and, and where, where can people find your stuff?
Like where, where can they find Feral Indy Studio and where can
they find all of the stuff that we've been talking about?
We have a website, feralindystudio.com, so there's
that. And then there's also I highly
recommend checking out like we have an itch Feral Indy studio
dot H dot IO. Alex has an itch page as well.
I think it's Alex. I think it's AE coggin
illustration at it's dot I anyway, she also has a Patreon.
If you're interested in her in her artwork.
Just look up her name, Alex E coggin illustration on Patreon.
And aside from that, I, I think we're on, I think you could
physically buy some of our books on IPR, but the rest of them you
can buy actually directly from us on our website there.
You go get out, take the long walk to the warehouse and and
mail them. Yeah, I have to do it for some
more coffee down there anyway, so I.
But be, like I said, thank you. Seriously, thank you so much for
coming on. It has been an absolute
pleasure. I hope we get the chance to do
this again. Definitely.
Likewise. Thank you.
Yes, if I'd open invite exists, I will take it like a.
Please, please. Yeah, please do.
But yeah. So that has been us for today.
All the links will be where you think links are on the Internet.
And we will see you all next time.
Thank you so much. Bye.