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Hello and welcome to the Weekly 
Scroll Podcast. 

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My name is Ryan. 
And I'm the other guy. 

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And joining us today is the one 
and only Charlie Ferguson. 

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Avery, how you doing this 
morning, Charlie? 

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Doing good. 
I currently have a cat on my 

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lap, I'm full of coffee and that
is a good start to the day. 

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That's awesome. 
Yep, we all love cats here on 

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the Weekly. 
Yeah, every single one of us. 

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There you go. 
But for those that might, I 

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don't know anyone that wouldn't,
that would watch us, that 

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wouldn't know who Charlie 
Ferguson Avery is. 

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But for those that might not 
know who the heck you are, what?

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What? 
Who the heck is Charlie Ferguson

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Avery? 
And what might people know you 

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for? 
Right, so I am 1/2 of Feral 

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Indie Studio. 
We've created a couple of books 

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including Into the Weird and 
Wild, Into Possessin, Citadel, 

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Avid, Knox. 
We are currently working on a 

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couple of scenes for this 
upcoming year. 

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In addition to the last couple 
of scenes that we've made 

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including the big ones off the 
top of my head would be the The 

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Vast in the Dark, Verm, Hack 
They Cry, Monster As The Gods 

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Demand, and the Weirdly enough 
Snail. 

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Fancy our One Adventure module? 
Hell yeah. 

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Right there. 
Yes, yes, classic. 

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Shockingly beloved by us as 
well, to be fair. 

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Oh damn. 
We, I have a couple, I have a 

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couple of things from from 
Farrell Lindy's studio kind of 

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just sitting around. 
You know, I'd be a little bit of

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a fan of, of Carly Ferguson 
Avery here on the show. 

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But but yeah, I, I mean, Avi and
Ox is, is one that blew up the 

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most. 
But I honestly think the first, 

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the first thing I saw from you 
was probably it's probably into 

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the weird and wild and then and 
then, Oh man, I don't even have 

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it with me. 
I thought I grabbed everything 

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but your art book for what 
eventually became Oh my God, 

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what's the what's the game to do
with wedding or I did the art 

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for? 
Oh my God, never going home. 

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Yeah, Never going home. 
Yeah, I got the art book for 

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that. 
Like between that and Into the 

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Weird and Wild, I was like, 
dude, this guy, this guy's 

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crazy. 
This is incredible. 

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So. 
Like Jesus, I keep forgetting 

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about I there are there never 
going home is probably as far as

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like what I have done that has 
like reached out like the most 

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ever going home is it? 
And I just sometimes completely 

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forget that I did it because I 
admittedly it's because I was 

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just doing the art for it and it
didn't quite. 

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I mean, maybe there's some sort 
of weird Stockholm syndrome that

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comes from like, actually like 
designing the book top to bottom

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that for some reason that sticks
in my head a lot more. 

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Makes sense, yeah. 
Yeah, but then I. 

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Definitely entered into like, 
you know, I'm a big like verm 

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hack guy. 
Like I really like verm hack. 

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I've run several times. 
I may have questions for you 

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guys then in regards to So 
perfect. 

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You know the plans. 
Have you seen the episode that 

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we did of this? 
Yes, yes, I, I, I was actually 

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going to do a, an update to it 
based on I OK, you were talking 

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about the, the lack of elegance 
with the three dice versus the 

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2. 
And I have been thinking about 

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that for years now. 
And I have been trying to, I 

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want to, I think I will just go 
back to go back to like 2 dice, 

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drop the modify, drop the 
difficulty challenge to 10 and 

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just call it the call it the 
lost pages update. 

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But. 
Yeah, you. 

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Can fold in like the Wanderer 
and what's the other one? 

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The Marshall? 
You can do a full book. 

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Make a 400 page verb hack book. 
Dude, that's what everyone doing

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right now. 
They're making the 300 page book

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out of their really cool 
lightweight book. 

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That's not fun. 
We're just going right back to 

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the what we we tried to get rid 
of all those years ago, all 

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these damn 400 page tomes that 
we unplug from table to table 

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and. 
No, let's keep it in like the 

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weird small indie skirmish 
scene. 

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Like that's where this belongs. 
Like I agree I. 

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Agree, I love the little Zine 
bro. 

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I do not want a 300 page book 
most of the time. 

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Oh God no. 
It's utterly inaccessible. 

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And also I I still AM even as a 
child, like having to lug all 

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the 3.5 books in a backpack to 
my friend's house to play games.

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I still think my back is 
recovering from that decades 

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later. 
Now. 

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I won't, I won't do it. 
I won't do it. 

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I actually have a standing now 
whether I hold to this over the 

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course of my career, I have a 
standing policy that I will not 

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make a book over 300 pages. 
It's very fair. 

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I mean, so everyone. 
Thought that way, yeah. 

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I remember, I mean, there's some
games that are like expanding 

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into larger books that I like 
doing like I'm really excited 

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for living the horrors like 
deluxe edition. 

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But there's a tool kit like for 
the most part, like it's widely 

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just a tool kit. 
It's not like all it's like, 

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yeah, it's fucking 300 pages, 
bro. 150 of them are lore. 

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It's going to blow your fucking 
mind, dude. 

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I'm like OK, cool. 
I mean, I do. 

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I think those are the big books 
that are, that are OK. 

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I will always, and I know this 
is not realistic for the world, 

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especially with like the cost of
things. 

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I will always prefer a bunch of 
small books than than one big 

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book. 
But that's just because my brain

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works better in small chunks. 
Like I, I prefer reading the 

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physical if I'm just reading the
physical. 

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But when we're doing stuff for 
like the show, I'll read the PDF

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because I can zoom in on like 
one paragraph at a time and my 

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brain can absorb one paragraph 
at a time. 

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So having to like try to parse 
and really like take notes and 

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stuff on like a giant 300 page 
tone that like, I can't just 

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like sit back if I can't lay on 
my back and read the book 

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without hurting my wrists. 
Like it's too big of a book to 

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take notes on. 
You know what I mean? 

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Like that's, that's kind of 
where I'm at. 

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But but I mean, you've made 
some, I mean, you've made some 

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decent sized books. 
I will say, I mean, this is 

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these aren't little, these are 
chunky boys. 

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Yeah, at 6 by 9 though, 6 by 9, 
that's. 

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True. 
Very acceptable, you know. 

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It is it. 
It is a very nice the 6 by 9 for

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a hardcover is a fantastic size 
8 and half by 11 is a bit much. 

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But, and these are also, I mean,
stunning books to begin with, 

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but you, you so based on, I 
mean, especially with all of 

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this and then vast in the dark, 
which I have the second edition 

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somewhere back there in the 1st 
edition right here. 

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But you, you have a tendency, I 
think it looks like to do a lot 

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of like setting stuff. 
Like what what makes you like to

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do like, you know, into weird 
and wild obviously is when you 

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go into the weird and the wild 
into the set in Citadel, like a 

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city builder. 
Vast in the dark is also kind of

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like a giant like builder kind 
of setting thing. 

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What? 
What pulls you towards those? 

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I think funny enough, I was 
actually answering, I was 

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answering a question about the 
OSR last night that that was 

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going to help me answer this 
because I started making stuff 

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for the old school Renaissance 
and that was like back when like

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Google Plus was still a thing in
the like mid twenty 10s. 

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That was the stuff I was 
attracted to. 

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I was like attracted to these. 
I was attracted to the settings 

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that were being made, not just 
like, here's a lore dump and 

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here's names. 
Here's all this, here is a 

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toolbox of usable things for 
playing a game. 

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And I had always wanted to play 
a game in a big spooky, scary 

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forest. 
And even in all the 3.5 stuff, 

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all the Pathfinder stuff, there 
were books on specific like 

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settings and locations in in 
universe, but there were not any

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books on how does A4, how does a
scary force feel? 

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How does one navigate it? 
What are the rules for that? 

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And even in the OSR, there were 
like, sometimes people would 

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like touch on it, but there 
wasn't a book that I wanted. 

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There weren't rules that I 
wanted to use. 

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The closest I came was a book 
called and you can definitely 

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see, like, see the DNA from this
veins of the Earth, if you've 

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heard of that. 
Yeah. 

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That was Yep, Yep, Yep, Yep. 
That book was like a bolt of 

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lightning to me. 
I still do not own a physical 

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copy because it was back when it
was going for like, I think 60 

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to $80.00. 
I will not, Oh no more than that

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like. 
I wish I would have got it for 

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$6080, let me tell you that. 
Before Ryan. 

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I don't even remember. 
It was definitely, it was 

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definitely 3 numbers, I'll tell 
you that. 

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Yeah, but when I got the PDF, it
was like a bolt of lightning. 

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The art was, you know, scrap 
Princess. 

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It was just like, gross and 
weird and rough and unpolished. 

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The writing for it was also 
equally bizarre, but it was 

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immediately usable and 
interesting. 

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And I wanted to make something 
like that, but I wanted my big 

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scary forest. 
And so then I just like, you 

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know, took all the inspiration 
of like everything that like I 

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wanted from a book, like 
everything I wanted while 

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exploring a big scary forest. 
And I put that into In the Weird

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Wild. 
I did all the drawings in 

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between my lunch breaks while I 
was working the job I was at. 

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And that was actually my first 
publication. 

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Hell yeah. 
Was into the weird wild like I 

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didn't. 
I didn't even do scenes before 

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that. 
Damn. 

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And. 
Wow. 

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Yeah, I which to be fair, like I
had done an art book ahead of 

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time through Kickstarter, so I 
didn't know how that worked. 

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I was working a job at a 
newspaper, so I knew I, you 

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know, had thousands of hours of 
practice doing layout. 

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I had access to Indesign. 
I came from art school. 

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So like, I, you know, I could do
my own artwork. 

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It was, I'm not going to say it 
was easy because it wasn't that.

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But like, I had all the tools I 
needed to make that book and 

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make it happen. 
And then it fucking exploded. 

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And now I have a career doing 
that. 

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So, yeah. 
So to answer the question of 

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like why I'm drawn to that is 
that's what's, that's what was 

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interesting to me. 
That's what I like making. 

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That's what comes easily. 
And also, if I'm going to make 

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something for somebody else to 
use, I want to make something 

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that is a toolbox that can be 
used and setting books just 

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00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,600
happen to be very usable for 
anyone at the table. 

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00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,560
Yeah, absolutely. 
It's funny, as you were talking,

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00:11:51,560 --> 00:11:54,200
as soon as you started talking 
about like 2010 G+ and stuff, I 

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00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,000
was like veins of the Earth, 
like popped into my head. 

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00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:58,840
I almost even said it. 
And then you were like, Oh yeah,

200
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veins are there. 
So I was like, Yep, that's 

201
00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,360
definitely was going. 
To go, Did you? 

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00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,000
Did you? 
Did you happen to know that 

203
00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,120
there's going to be a Veins of 
the Earth redex coming out next 

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year? 
No, I did not. 

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I will. 
I would have to snap myself a 

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00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,760
copy. 
The, the the False Machine 

207
00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,240
newsletter sent that out like 
like a week or two ago. 

208
00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,040
They said there's a whole big 
thing that says vain. 

209
00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:19,920
See there, the Redux and I 
freaked the fuck out. 

210
00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,440
So very, very excited, excited 
for that. 

211
00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:29,120
But yeah, and then and then Vast
in the Dark is probably the next

212
00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,080
one that I really saw from you 
that I fell in love with and 

213
00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,000
then obviously went to your 
store and bought everything and 

214
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saw VRMAC and then, you know, 
went from there. 

215
00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:41,440
But Vast in the Dark one and two
kind of talk about that a little

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00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,680
bit of like, you know, you made 
number one and then number 2 

217
00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:46,600
came out bigger and and even 
more gone on with that. 

218
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,760
So what made you, you know, 
we've already talked about kind 

219
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:50,160
of like the setting book a 
little bit with Veins in the 

220
00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,280
Dark, but what made you want to 
go from 1:00 to 2:00 with that? 

221
00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:59,320
For that one it was the initial 
Zine, so it was just Zine size 

222
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,400
was about as bare boned as I 
could get it. 

223
00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,960
It's I think only 28 pages or 
something like that or I might 

224
00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:14,640
have tried to cut it down to 24.
How many it was in your hand? 

225
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,240
Let me take it out of the 
protective plastic because this 

226
00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,800
one definitely deserves it. 
I can tell you right now it is 

227
00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,320
exactly. 
Technically it says 25 pages. 

228
00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:31,880
OK, so it's 2828 so I must have 
not counted the chapters when I 

229
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:37,240
was laying it out. 
Anyway, that one was bare boned 

230
00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,600
and I tried to make it as like 
concise and polished as I 

231
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,400
possibly could. 
That meant I couldn't fit a 

232
00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,480
whole lot of artwork into it. 
I think I did like, I think I 

233
00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:53,400
tried to fit. 
I had a decent amount, but there

234
00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,720
was so much more that like I 
wanted to explore. 

235
00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:01,240
But when I was making it, I won.
I was working my day job at the 

236
00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:07,480
time and I like mothership had 
come out and like I had saw seen

237
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,400
what like Sean McCoy did with 
like fitting as much information

238
00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,280
as he could into an actual scene
format. 

239
00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:16,320
And like I wanted to do that 
too. 

240
00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:20,640
I didn't want to like I I didn't
want to just like fill pages 

241
00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,240
with like stuff that like I 
thought nobody was going to 

242
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,480
read. 
I didn't want to like I didn't 

243
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:30,800
have room to put the artwork in.
So the reason I did the bigger 

244
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:36,480
one was because I it was AI was 
being indulgent. 

245
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:39,760
I wanted to do more artwork for 
it. 

246
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,240
I wanted to like show off more 
factions. 

247
00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:48,840
I wanted to put this like weird 
end game area and I wanted more,

248
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,360
you know, magic monsters, you 
name it. 

249
00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:58,200
And unfortunately, well, not 
unfortunately, but I did have to

250
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:02,680
scale up to 8 1/2 by 11 in order
to fit all that in. 

251
00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:10,160
So yeah, that's why I did it. 
It was I, I was giving myself a 

252
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,160
treat. 
Well, you kind of give us all a 

253
00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,120
treat. 
It is a wonderful, wonderful 

254
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,400
book. 
I mean, I wish I could, it 

255
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,880
should be right there, but I get
it might be over there, but I 

256
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:21,320
can't. 
That's the one I couldn't find 

257
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,320
for my stack. 
But yeah, I mean, it is, it's 

258
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:29,000
it's bigger, it's better, it's 
more and but it also, the first 

259
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,600
one's fantastic. 
But I, I, I think it needed all 

260
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:33,400
that extra stuff. 
I'm very glad that you decided 

261
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,920
to be a little bit indulgent 
with it the first. 

262
00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:41,520
One was tight that I will say 
that it was probably the 

263
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,000
tightest publication I've ever 
done. 

264
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,920
Like, yeah. 
That's a cool. 

265
00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:47,320
Thing to expand on though, you 
know. 

266
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:53,480
No. 
And you're also now doing is, is

267
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:54,800
the Kickstarter over for it at 
this point? 

268
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,200
Because I know you're it's kind 
of like a reprint, kind of like 

269
00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:01,400
a little bit of a for into this 
for assessment Citadel. 

270
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,520
So oh, for Cess and Citadel yes,
so that is that's being run by 

271
00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,880
wedded games. 
That's part of the reprint. 

272
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:15,040
I kind of wish I could say more 
on that, but I have been very 

273
00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,160
hands off with that. 
Not in a bad way, but just like 

274
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,880
I mean we're working on the 3rd 
book right now and immediately 

275
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,640
it's in very good hands. 
Like it's it is a Co published 

276
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:27,280
title. 
Like, you know, wedded games 

277
00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:33,120
knows what they're doing and I'm
actually admittedly kind of 

278
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,640
grateful that somebody else is 
like taking charge of all that. 

279
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,520
Like I don't want to, I don't 
want to worry about shipping. 

280
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:48,760
I've done my time, I've done the
I've done the like 2000 backer 

281
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:55,080
or maybe not 2000, but like over
1000 backer kickstarters. 

282
00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,320
I've shipped everything out of 
my living room before. 

283
00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:05,319
I, I'm ready to just just work 
on the books and ship the ones 

284
00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:06,760
that we already shipped from our
house. 

285
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,119
I, I don't have a kitchen. 
I I, I don't have a dining room 

286
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,839
like it's just full of. 
This is like a classic, like 

287
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,920
indie TTRPG like maker thing is 
like, yeah, like just one room 

288
00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,079
in the house is just just all 
full of boxes of this game. 

289
00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:21,720
And then. 
Oh yeah. 

290
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,160
When I say like, Oh well, I 
actually have to go like do 

291
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,960
inventory down at the warehouse.
What I mean by that is the 

292
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,520
entire side wall of the dining 
room that we have set this like 

293
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:40,840
admittedly, well, this bears 
this bear's saying my like Co 

294
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,800
partner in Feral Indy Studio, 
Alex Coggin. 

295
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,520
I would not be where I am now. 
Feral Indy Studio would not be 

296
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:55,920
where it is now without the work
that she has put in in shipping,

297
00:17:56,040 --> 00:18:00,920
organizing and I would say like 
putting in like the important 

298
00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:05,480
work while also being a 
incredible painter and 

299
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:10,040
illustrator. 
Like, so, you know, go Alex. 

300
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:12,520
There you go. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

301
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:19,720
Well, because I mean, and, and 
then Brian is also, who is Brian

302
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,280
Ferguson Avery? 
Oh, that's my dad. 

303
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,080
Because you you've put out some 
stuff from Brian Ferguson Avery 

304
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,920
as well. 
Yes, that is, that's actually he

305
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:37,680
published that himself. 
I if he wanted that cover, he 

306
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,280
got that cover. 
Which you're obviously very 

307
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:45,480
happy about. 
I just think that I am a 

308
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:53,160
professional illustrator and 
that I because I've done, I have

309
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,000
actually illustrated one of his 
titles before. 

310
00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:01,040
He did a short story called Lean
Town that is fantastic and I did

311
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:06,440
the cover for that and I love 
that cover and I think for rough

312
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:10,080
jointed beasts I could have done
a excellent cover for that as 

313
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,640
well. 
And also, admittedly, this is 

314
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:19,520
not his fault and a lot, not 
just him, but like everyone 

315
00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:24,200
every yes, there it is. 
Everyone who's been using Mix AM

316
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:30,480
has been finding out that their 
quality has been dropping not 

317
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,680
with like the stapled scenes, 
but with the like perfect bound 

318
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,600
books. 
Like when when he ordered those,

319
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,160
about half of them were like 
falling apart by the time that 

320
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,480
we got them. 
And so, yeah. 

321
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:52,760
And so we actually had to, I 
believe he got like a refund for

322
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:54,800
most of it. 
And so the ones that you are 

323
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,360
receiving are the ones that were
like the binding was intact. 

324
00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:03,520
So if we ever reprint that, one,
I'm doing the cover, and two, 

325
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:09,440
I'm going to find a a printer 
and binder that will actually do

326
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:14,160
it justice. 
You're like a really prolific 

327
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:15,960
artist. 
Not to segue to another thing, 

328
00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,600
but you're like a really 
incredibly prolific artist. 

329
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:24,080
You have like like what, like 7 
or 8 like art packs for people 

330
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:29,400
to use on your itch. 
Was that just like surplus art 

331
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,880
that you had that you wanted to 
get out or you just like, is 

332
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:33,800
that just because I know you can
use them for like small 

333
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:35,400
publishing and stuff? 
Is this the way you were trying 

334
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,520
to support like smaller 
creators? 

335
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:42,200
Yeah, actually the latter I and 
I think it's especially 

336
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:48,240
important now with like all the 
AI slot that's coming out that 

337
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:54,360
you know, affording an artist to
do Commission artwork is 

338
00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:56,120
sometimes completely out of the 
cards. 

339
00:20:56,120 --> 00:20:59,960
It's why a lot of people have 
found like ways around it by 

340
00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:05,120
using like public domain artwork
that I love or using AI art, 

341
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:10,880
which I despise. 
And at the time it was before AI

342
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,920
was a thing, but I, and so now 
it's kind of even more 

343
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,520
important. 
But yes, I wanted to give 

344
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:23,640
creator something that like for 
25 bucks you can get, you know, 

345
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,120
it's maybe not, might not be 
everything that you want, but at

346
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:30,960
least like there's some good art
there and I would like to really

347
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:35,720
release more of those. 
I just, I've been really busy 

348
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:40,120
with this third book. 
Makes sense, yeah. 

349
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,640
Yeah, I mean, it's really, I 
mean, like you said, that's 

350
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,320
super important. 
I know there's people and I and 

351
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,560
I bookmark them every time, but 
people that have whole threads 

352
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,080
on blue sky of like here's 
resources for like there's a 

353
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:55,800
million reasons not to use AI 
and here's free fonts or or free

354
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,560
slash, really inexpensive packs 
of art assets. 

355
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,160
Like I know you have a ton, 
Perplexing Ruins has a ton. 

356
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,680
Like there's a lot of stuff in 
this scene that when you mix it 

357
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,680
with with the public domain 
stuff, there is zero. 

358
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:15,800
There is zero reason to, to keep
destroying the world and society

359
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,800
in your brain and everything 
with fucking generative AI. 

360
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:23,960
Like it's, it's it's inexcusable
if you're in any creative space 

361
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:25,880
whatsoever. 
But at the end of the day, AI is

362
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:30,480
class warfare. 
So fucking stop, you know, Yeah,

363
00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:32,840
we'll, we'll stop. 
We'll stop that right there. 

364
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:37,640
So, so third, so third book that
you've mentioned, are you like, 

365
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,600
can you, can you, can you talk 
about that? 

366
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:46,320
Oh yeah, it's it's so title is 
into the Sultan surf and it is 

367
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:51,360
all about a haunted coastline 
and surviving an apocalypse. 

368
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:58,240
And by that I mean that like, 
OK, we'll get into the weeds a 

369
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,720
bit. 
The book is in four parts. 

370
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,680
The first part is sort of all 
about like generating the 

371
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,000
generating the coastline, the 
general rules for the coastline,

372
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,480
the monsters, maybe some of the 
magic. 

373
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,600
Second part of the book is sort 
of delving into the coastline. 

374
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:19,360
So there is a point crawl system
for entering into the deep 

375
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:21,960
ocean. 
There are coastal delves which 

376
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:28,040
sort of represent the dungeons 
that periodically flood larger 

377
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,080
monsters, how you hunt larger 
monsters, mechanics for that. 

378
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:35,400
And then the third part of the 
book is called The Storm and it 

379
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,040
is all about the apocalypse that
comes to the shore. 

380
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,200
It can come in multiple forms. 
There are portents for it. 

381
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:49,720
There's a book by Wizard of the 
Coast 3.5 called Elder Evils, 

382
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:55,960
which is all about putting like 
end game apocalypses in your 

383
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,760
game. 
It's incredibly thematic. 

384
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,520
I don't really know how usable 
it is or if anyone was able to 

385
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:06,280
really use it for their games, 
but that is something that I 

386
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,360
wanted to put in this book of, 
you know, you're actually 

387
00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:13,560
preparing for this storm that's 
going to come. 

388
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,600
And then finally, the 4th part 
of the book is all right, all 

389
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,480
that stuff that you've 
generated, all the stuff that 

390
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,080
you've created, all these NPCS 
that you might have made 

391
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:26,040
connections with. 
Let's see who survived. 

392
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,640
Let's see what survived and 
let's see what changed. 

393
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,680
And yes, I came up with this 
idea after COVID so. 

394
00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:39,880
Perfect. 
Yeah. 

395
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,320
And also, like, I mean, I don't 
want to get to, I don't want to 

396
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,320
wax too poetic with this. 
But like, this is, you know, the

397
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:54,680
last book in the series I, you 
know, plan to keep making like 

398
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,680
tabletop role-playing games. 
Maybe I'll pivot into video 

399
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:02,920
games if I can ever find a coder
that would want to work with me.

400
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,600
But, you know, I don't really 
know what's next. 

401
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,280
This has been, you know, this 
has been the plan for the last 

402
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,400
10 years, these three books. 
We're not doing a desert book. 

403
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,960
Contrary to what a lot of people
say, we are not doing a fucking 

404
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:24,120
desert book. 
Why not? 

405
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:24,640
What? 
What? 

406
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,800
Why not the desert? 
What the desert? 

407
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,760
Don't. 
Know anything about deserts I I 

408
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,560
barely know anything about 
coastlines I. 

409
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,320
Well, deserts are dry, and 
they're usually full of giant 

410
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,520
worms from every other desert 
setting book I've ever read. 

411
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,280
Sam Sorensen already released a 
desert book that's way better 

412
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:45,960
than anything I could ever come 
up with. 

413
00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:49,880
It's, you know, just go to that.
I damn I wish I could remember 

414
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,560
the name of it. 
Sand. 

415
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:56,040
Sand yes, it's incredible. 
Just go, go read that. 

416
00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:01,160
That's. 
But yeah, no, this is like the 

417
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,280
last book in the series and I'm 
not really sure what's next. 

418
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,400
So I guess it's kind of fitting 
that it ends with the end of the

419
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,760
world in a fashion. 
That's pretty cool. 

420
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,080
I like that. 
You know, I think that's that's 

421
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,080
very thematic. 
Well, you know, outside of the 

422
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,920
the setting books that you have 
and and obviously the third one 

423
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:21,080
you're working on, you do have 
Ave. 

424
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:26,080
Knox, which which is this, this 
beautiful two books right here. 

425
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,320
What's funny is I backed this 
one and then just wanted the art

426
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,960
for this so bad that I think I 
grabbed this copy of either. 

427
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,000
I think Gen. 
Con I grabbed it because I was 

428
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,320
like, it's so good. 
But when the special edition is 

429
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,160
like every book does this where 
it's like cool, beautiful thing,

430
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:41,960
but man, look at the art on that
guy right there. 

431
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,760
It's you could have just asked 
me for a copy, no? 

432
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,080
So, but so that's a that's like 
a mega dungeon adventure thing, 

433
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,640
which which also, you know, mega
dungeon adventure, it'll kind of

434
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,680
let you do a little bit of the 
setting stuff too, because you 

435
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:01,920
you build out this whole place. 
So what is that kind of how you 

436
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,160
moved into doing Avey Knox was 
in the same color vein, but 

437
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,120
being able to make it a little 
more playable or what was 

438
00:27:07,120 --> 00:27:12,000
impetus for for Avey Knox? 
Well, everybody was doing back 

439
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,360
attentions at the time and not I
don't say that cynically. 

440
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,400
I say that in I was like 
fascinated with the idea of it 

441
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:25,000
and it was like, I kind of knew,
like, all right, this is going 

442
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,600
to be like a lot more work than 
a setting book, But that's OK. 

443
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,720
I'm a, you know, I'm a big boy 
game designer at this point. 

444
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,320
Like I've I've cut my teeth with
two books. 

445
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,840
I've got all these scenes. 
I can do this and Ave. 

446
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:45,600
Knox I that thing still haunts 
me to this day because. 

447
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,600
Well, OK, to answer the 
question, like I moved into it 

448
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,640
because like I wanted to make a 
mega dungeon. 

449
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,240
I like had seen the mega 
dungeons that were coming out 

450
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,320
and I thought like, I wouldn't 
be cool if I were to do this 

451
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,920
from the perspective of an art 
historian. 

452
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,440
I took a bunch of like art 
histories in school. 

453
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,400
Technically I should have minor,
but the accreditation wasn't 

454
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:13,160
there with my school. 
So anyway, yeah, I mean, for 

455
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:14,160
what? 
Like, Oh, great. 

456
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,280
I have an art historic like I 
have a minor in art history. 

457
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:17,480
What's that got to do for me? 
Hey. 

458
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,080
Good job at the museum, you 
know. 

459
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:26,920
Maybe, but like I don't want to 
fine, I guess like I no, the 

460
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,360
important part was that I got to
learn what I did and I still 

461
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:33,680
hold that appreciation. 
The the minor doesn't mean 

462
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,640
anything, but yeah, I made it 
because I wanted to make a mega 

463
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,840
dungeon and then I started 
making it and it sucked. 

464
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:48,040
And that I like, I wish I could 
say I was like proud of that 

465
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:53,200
book, but there are so many 
things that like I wish I could 

466
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:59,720
add to it or fix, but I was so 
burnt out by the time I finished

467
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:05,760
that book with like the 
balancing, the editing, the IT 

468
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:10,200
was something that like I hadn't
actually like really done 

469
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,120
before, which was like a large 
form module. 

470
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,520
And yes, it is a setting after a
fashion. 

471
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,640
And yes, there is like a story 
and there's lore and I tried to 

472
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,040
show that off. 
But at the end of the day, it 

473
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:33,600
was like a slog writing all of 
those writing all of those 

474
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:39,200
blocks, blocks of text, all the 
like monster entries, having a 

475
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,760
lacrosse reference, like, you 
know, a scaling how much 

476
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,320
treasure there should be. 
And then also in the big 

477
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:52,000
picture, things like kind of 
failing to create a dynamic 

478
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,600
environment. 
I think it was like idle 

479
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,160
cartlery. 
Cartulery. 

480
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,480
I'm mispronouncing that word. 
They did, yes. 

481
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,920
They did a review of it where 
they God damn it. 

482
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:07,760
That's the best one. 
I'm trying all. 

483
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:09,920
Charcuterie right now, That's 
right, yeah. 

484
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,680
I I know the word, I know what 
it means, I just can't. 

485
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,640
I just, I've never heard it out 
loud anyway. 

486
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,480
But they made the point where 
like all the the monsters and 

487
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,480
the enemies in the book are 
basically goombas. 

488
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,680
They sort of exist as like Rd. 
box roadblocks to be overcome 

489
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,360
with violence. 
And they are not wrong. 

490
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,200
And I kind of wish I could have,
like I said, created a more 

491
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,200
dynamic environment within the 
dungeon itself. 

492
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:46,880
I wish I could have made the 
settlement of sheer on top more 

493
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,280
dynamic and changing and half 
points of interaction. 

494
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:57,080
But, you know, like I said, I 
was so burnt out by the time I 

495
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:02,960
finished that book, so yeah. 
Well, I think when you do Ave. 

496
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,800
Knox 2, the return of Solaris 
Rex or whatever that'll be, 

497
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:13,120
that's your chance to you know. 
Yeah, I I think I would just do 

498
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,160
I I would just do a different 
mega dungeon and take what I 

499
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:25,760
have learned and also, well do 
it in a way that I should make 

500
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,720
it not the way I think it should
be made. 

501
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,560
It's that's it's not no point 
getting into that right now. 

502
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:40,160
It's 2 into the leads I. 
Very fair, very fair. 

503
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,120
I, I enjoy it. 
I think, you know, it's mega 

504
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,240
dungeons. 
I'm not an adventure guy, kind 

505
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,240
of to begin with. 
We've talked about that on the 

506
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:50,920
show. 
Yeah, that he's the adventure 

507
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,080
guy. 
But I, I like mega dungeons for 

508
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:58,680
exactly as setting books 
basically, and then just being 

509
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,600
able to do it on my own. 
So I really enjoy Alvin Knox, 

510
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,400
partially because I would never 
run it as written, but like the 

511
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,240
vibes are Immaculate and it's 
got a, it's got a lot of really 

512
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,560
incredible stuff in there. 
So I I'm a fan, but you know, I 

513
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:12,560
can, I can see what you're 
saying. 

514
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:17,040
And then one of the other things
you worked on which which might 

515
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:18,840
be our favorite thing. 
The only thing you know we've 

516
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,880
talked about for you actually. 
Oh please, yes. 

517
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,480
So please let us talk about verm
hack I love. 

518
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,840
Verm hack Let me just I really 
enjoy verm hack. 

519
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:31,520
So where the heck did this come 
from? 

520
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,040
That was I wanted to make a 
skirmish game. 

521
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:37,520
I. 
Very skirmish, good job. 

522
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,080
Yes, yeah, yes. 
And now admittedly, like I also 

523
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,000
like I wanted it to work as a 
role-playing game as well. 

524
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:50,720
But in practice and how I play 
it, it is a skirmish game. 

525
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:56,240
So yes, this has been like a 
little passion project that I've

526
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,680
been working on. 
I will admit, yes, I was 

527
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,120
inspired by Vermes, which is why
it's called Verm Hack. 

528
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:07,240
And probably if I end up doing 
something larger with it, I may 

529
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,440
change the name. 
But like now, I've just been 

530
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,080
using Verm Hack so often that I 
might have to stick with that. 

531
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,320
Yes, I wanted to make a skirmish
game and I had all these ideas 

532
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,200
for skirmish games. 
I had things that I liked from 

533
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,840
skirmish games. 
I had things I didn't like and I

534
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,960
have been trying, it's a living 
document and I've been trying to

535
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:32,840
suss out a feel of a game 
through this that I, that I want

536
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:37,760
to play. 
Yes, I, I have some aspirations 

537
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:42,480
for like perhaps like combining 
them all into a book, doing like

538
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,840
a large release. 
But ultimately, this is a game 

539
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:52,280
that I want to play, and I have 
been going mad over the last 

540
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,000
couple of years in a good way, 
trying to like sort of figure 

541
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,640
out like what mechanics would 
work best for it. 

542
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,360
You know it's funny. 
Quick aside John from Breitbart 

543
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:09,360
games, super random story. 
I got on a plane to packs on a 

544
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,120
connection in Chicago and John 
from Breitbart. 

545
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,239
I don't know if you know you 
know him, but he's a person in 

546
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,400
the industry was the last person
to get on the plane ended up 

547
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:19,920
sitting next to me. 
So it was cool to know someone 

548
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,080
on the way there. 
But we were talking about his 

549
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,159
game that he's working on and he
when I got to a point in it, 

550
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,120
there was a word in it and it 
was like it was something like 

551
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,480
poop Dee doop or poopy something
or whatever. 

552
00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:32,719
And I was like why the fuck does
this say that? 

553
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,639
And he was it's like, because I 
don't want to get tied to 

554
00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:39,080
whatever name I name it. 
I want to come up with a better 

555
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,679
name later. 
And there's no way I would ever 

556
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:44,440
just be like, Ah, fuck it, good 
enough for like poop Dee Doop or

557
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,920
something like that in the book.
So when you said I'm kind of 

558
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,560
stuck with Verm hack now a it's 
great, but BI was just like, 

559
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,600
yeah, if I ever do a game like 
that again, I'm definitely 

560
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,199
naming it like, yeah, poopy 
pants or something so I don't 

561
00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:59,840
get fall in love with the name. 
But anyway, Verm hack. 

562
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,200
I also wanted to say like, what 
do you you guys like about it 

563
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:06,560
out of curiosity? 
Everything. 

564
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:11,280
All of it the, I mean, we did a 
whole a whole episode about it 

565
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,640
because we loved it so much. 
First of all, I mean, the vibes 

566
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,760
are fucking Immaculate. 
Like, I mean, you definitely get

567
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,800
inspired by Vermus a bit from 
it, but I don't feel like it's 

568
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,760
in any way, shape or form 
derivative of Vermus. 

569
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,200
I mean, who wasn't immediately 
inspired by Vermus when they 

570
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,320
write it first time? 
Plastaboo fucking killed it. 

571
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,320
But I so I'm a big I've been 
thinking about this a lot 

572
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,080
lately. 
Like I'm not like a if we, if we

573
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,640
go to like GNS, whatever. 
Like I'm not a simulationist 

574
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,240
with my games. 
I like my games to feel like 

575
00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:38,400
games. 
I like my role-playing games. 

576
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:39,600
I still feel like I'm playing a 
game. 

577
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,880
I I versus, you know, the kind 
of role-playing games that feel 

578
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,440
like you're just giving like RP 
prompts all the time, which is, 

579
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,680
which is a valid form. 
It's just I prefer games that 

580
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:49,880
still feel gamey, which is why 
I've kind of been shifting into 

581
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,200
skirmish and I felt like Verm 
hack felt like a very good 

582
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,760
straddle of the line where it 
felt like to me, it definitely 

583
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,040
read more as a role-playing game
that you can lean skirmish in, 

584
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,320
but it still felt gamey, which 
is exactly what I want for my 

585
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,320
role-playing games to be is I 
want to still feel like I'm 

586
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,680
playing a game and then have the
opportunity to role play versus 

587
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,360
the role play is the game. 
So that's that's one of the 

588
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,200
parts of it that I really, 
really loved a lot is is the 

589
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,200
skirmish aspects made it feel 
gamey. 

590
00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:23,320
But then when you throw fucking 
Charlie Ferguson Avery art on 

591
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:24,960
top of it, like how are you not 
going to love it? 

592
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,840
You know what I mean? 
And then just just the vibes are

593
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:29,720
out. 
It just I'm such an adroit piece

594
00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:32,760
of shit. 
So like all the darker creepy 

595
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,200
stuff in there. 
I'm just a yes, like feed me 

596
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:36,560
Charlie. 
Like that's what I felt the 

597
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,600
entire time. 
What about you, Hunter? 

598
00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:43,080
I, you know, so we ran 2 
sessions. 

599
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:44,760
I think we ended up like a 
session and a half. 

600
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:49,760
We ran I I turned the first like
several chapters of Between 2 

601
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:51,840
Fires. 
Would you have if you haven't 

602
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,320
read? 
I've complicated feelings about 

603
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:56,080
that book. 
I have. 

604
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,000
Yes, I. 
Like yeah, me too. 

605
00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:59,680
The. 
Same final third is. 

606
00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:03,000
Not ready to be as upsetted by 
that book as I absolutely was 

607
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:04,920
reading through it. 
And also, I feel like it tapers 

608
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,200
off at the end, but yeah, I was.
Gonna say the final the final 

609
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,520
third is a bit and the. 
Beginning of it is like this. 

610
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:15,400
It's a fantastic and yeah, I 
think just like the the skirmish

611
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,880
aspect of combat, because my 
group, we've been playing so 

612
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:22,160
many like OSR adjacent. 
I'm add that to the counter like

613
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,480
games and like it's fun and 
everything. 

614
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:30,320
And the lot of those, you know, 
the combat is not like super 

615
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,520
like filled out, but they are 
really great RPGs. 

616
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,040
And this really made like my 
table was like, oh, OK, cool. 

617
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,040
I have these options in combat 
and I can really like engage in 

618
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,800
combat. 
And it feels like like that's 

619
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,920
part of like the role-playing 
and like the actual fun of The 

620
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,120
thing is like how many options 
you have for combat and what you

621
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,640
can do. 
Also, I just like how weird and 

622
00:37:54,640 --> 00:38:00,440
dark it is, you know? 
I, I will admit, like I, I like,

623
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,840
like I said, like Verbis was a 
huge inspiration, but also I 

624
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,960
have been trying to lean into 
this like, for lack of a term, 

625
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:14,640
like, I know it's a meme, but 
80s dark fantasy style artwork, 

626
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,880
lots of like pencil work. 
I've I've been, I've been 

627
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:27,560
practicing my stippling with 
pens and yes, like, and like, I 

628
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:29,680
know I'm not going like, I'm not
trying to make furnace. 

629
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,120
I'm definitely inspired by it. 
And I know like, as soon as I 

630
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:37,000
like start making, it's going to
look, it's going to look like 

631
00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:41,240
what I do. 
And but yes, I'm glad to hear 

632
00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:45,480
that. 
Also on the topic of combat, the

633
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:50,760
next expansion is going to have 
something called Marshall. 

634
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,640
Like Marshall. 
I'm still trying to figure out 

635
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,640
the name, but like Marshall 
forms where like I don't want to

636
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,400
do classes. 
So instead you can actually 

637
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,160
learn these abilities that give 
you additional options in combat

638
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,640
at the cost of strain. 
Because why should spellcasters 

639
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,880
have all the fun with like all 
these sort of like weird 

640
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,640
options? 
I feel like that's been 

641
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:19,920
something that like like the OSR
still does that where like magic

642
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,840
users have these additional 
options, combat user or melee 

643
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:29,680
physical combat users don't. 
And I want, since melee combat 

644
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,600
is such a integral part of this 
game, I want to make that 

645
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,680
interesting and important. 
Still figuring that out. 

646
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,800
But that's the plan. 
And I'm glad to hear that that 

647
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:45,960
is like a a point of interest. 
Like adding on to like weapon 

648
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,560
abilities, which I thought were 
like a good, like a really 

649
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,360
strong like part of this and 
like weapon criticals. 

650
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,080
I think it made weapons feel 
very fun. 

651
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,480
But yeah, I think I think some 
more options for Marshall 

652
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,640
classes would be cool as well. 
Marshall spell casting. 

653
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,720
You know, except you know 
except, except not, but you 

654
00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:10,680
know. 
It's we'll say, art wise. 

655
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,240
I mean, so besides the fact that
cover and my gosh, that green, 

656
00:40:14,240 --> 00:40:16,680
what a perfect, what a perfect 
choice for it. 

657
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,200
But that the first page right 
here, like even just for the 

658
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,160
vibe, setting off the entire 
thing, it's such an incredible 

659
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,640
piece that really did kind of 
set the tone for the entire 

660
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:30,360
game. 
But are you a video game person 

661
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,520
at all? 
I have to say yes out of 

662
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,040
curiosity. 
So well, so I'm, I'm a, I'm a 

663
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,400
metroidvania person. 
I played some soul stuff and I I

664
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,760
don't mind this whole stuff, but
the thing that I'm not the 

665
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,160
biggest fan of with souls like, 
and maybe I'll come to a point 

666
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,840
with this. 
I hate ticky tack stat stuff 

667
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,680
like they're out games. 
Like I hate being like, oh man, 

668
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,920
these boots give me +2 to fire 
resist, but then I lose plus one

669
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:00,760
to this or that. 
But then you look at something 

670
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,080
like Blasphemous, which is more 
a Metroidvania where you just 

671
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:07,040
go, OK, like I unlocked this 
ability that now my sword swings

672
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,760
like twice as far or I get 
double jump or something like 

673
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:11,640
that. 
The way you're talking with 

674
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,040
Vermag, it gave me kind of like 
more of those feels where it's 

675
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,280
just like, I don't want to do a 
class, I don't want to do all 

676
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,600
this other stuff, but I want to 
give people options by maybe 

677
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,560
giving them like this or giving 
them that. 

678
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,880
Like giving something that feels
like a spell but isn't that 

679
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,800
immediately goes Ding Ding Ding 
in my head where I'm like fuck 

680
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:27,920
yeah. 
Like give me something that's 

681
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,720
cooler without making it more 
fucking complicated or make me 

682
00:41:30,720 --> 00:41:33,880
have to like, you know, pick 
which one is like slightly 

683
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,040
better than the other for this 
or that, like. 

684
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:38,960
I, I do not like percentages in 
games. 

685
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,200
I, I, I think we are, it's a, 
we're, we're playing the game 

686
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,360
about Dragons and, you know, 
Wizards and warriors. 

687
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:50,280
Why do we got to bring algebra 
into it? 

688
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:57,960
Someone who loves math. 
To be fair, I like no like I yes

689
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,560
yes agreed. 
Awesome. 

690
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,760
So but then and and maybe you 
said it and maybe I was like, 

691
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,600
you know, disassociating at the 
time. 

692
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,400
But so skirmish, I mean, you 
obviously you've been doing T 

693
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,800
turbies for a long time and you 
talked about, you know, G+ air 

694
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,120
back in the early the mid twenty
10s. 

695
00:42:14,240 --> 00:42:17,000
What really pulled you into 
wanting to do not only the 

696
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:18,960
skirmish frame, but like the 
skirmish scene and everything 

697
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,520
just in general, just like, was 
it like the combat aspect of it?

698
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:24,840
Was it wanting to make your own?
Like what really pulls you 

699
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,640
towards that and what what what 
kind of games you've been played

700
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,960
lately in the scene? 
I think like it's a combination 

701
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,480
of everything, especially in 
like the indie skirmish scene, 

702
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,240
like one of my favorite artists 
and I will call her an artist. 

703
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:43,600
Gardens of Hecatee, Anna. 
Yes, I think the last name is 

704
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,680
yeah. 
Yes, incredible stuff all 

705
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,840
around. 
Then there's mold, mold, mold 

706
00:42:51,720 --> 00:42:59,760
and let me think like totally 
not panicking, manic, that whole

707
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:04,160
circle and various circles. 
Miscast and and all of those 

708
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:05,920
freaking big like clan farm, 
Yeah. 

709
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,880
Yes, like I like that's 
something that I want to do. 

710
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,120
Like I love, you know, I love 
the role-playing games. 

711
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:14,280
I do. 
I love the setting books and 

712
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,800
stuff, but that is something 
that is just like. 

713
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:21,080
Well, it kind of goes back to 
what you said where it's it's a 

714
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,080
game. 
It feels like a game because it 

715
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:29,200
is a game and it plays like a 
game And I have had there's so 

716
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,880
many like great moments of like 
fun playing board games and 

717
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,240
skirmish games feel much more 
like board games. 

718
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,120
I think like I like role-playing
games too, but it's a different 

719
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,640
feel. 
And so, but anyway, back to 

720
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,680
answering the question. 
I I just want to do all of it. 

721
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,440
Like hell, I've even started 
like sculpting minis here and 

722
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:56,160
there, not even really for like 
not because I have some big plan

723
00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:00,360
of like, Oh yes, perhaps I'll do
like a release of these in white

724
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:06,520
metal or something like that. 
But just because that is an this

725
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:13,840
is my hobby and it's something 
that I want to make my own. 

726
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,720
And I yeah, like times are 
tough. 

727
00:44:17,720 --> 00:44:20,880
So like I do have to release 
Verm hack like, and I kind of 

728
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,240
prefer if people pay for it 
because I am doing like artwork 

729
00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:26,480
for it and a lot of work goes 
into it. 

730
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:32,880
But truthfully, if I could get 
away with it, I would just make 

731
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:37,000
this thing like a living 
document that I play and I 

732
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:41,880
release and I perhaps like go to
conventions and sell physical 

733
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,560
copies of the scene. 
But more I want to make a game 

734
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,080
that just feels good to play for
me and feels good to play for 

735
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:52,120
other people. 
And so that's kind of why I'm 

736
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,080
breaking in. 
It's it's my hobby and it's fun 

737
00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,000
and as far as games I have been 
playing, I've been tapping into 

738
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,440
a little bit of like 5 leagues 
in Borderlands for some solo 

739
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,160
play. 
Recently played Trench Crusade 

740
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:13,880
and I I like it. 
Some complicated feelings about 

741
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:18,720
it as a whole for that I don't 
really even think it's worth 

742
00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:21,920
getting into right now, but it 
was fun. 

743
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,680
Are you sure? 
I God, I don't know, it's. 

744
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,800
Your time bro, you know. 
How are you going to 

745
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:33,040
mechanically, it's very swingy. 
It is almost like senselessly 

746
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:37,360
grim. 
I well, you know what? 

747
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,960
No, I think I'm going to park it
right there just for like talk 

748
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,280
to me in person and this. 
Is all from conversation. 

749
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,320
Yeah, yeah. 
Yeah, this is important. 

750
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:47,080
It's the. 
Grim part so. 

751
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:52,960
Yeah. 
But yeah, I I think that's 

752
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:55,240
pretty much it. 
Like honestly I've been working 

753
00:45:55,240 --> 00:45:58,120
a lot so I haven't had that much
time to play like. 

754
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,320
You know, you know what you you 
know what you got to try. 

755
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,080
Oh Aldrin death cutting stone 
like. 

756
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:06,360
Oh yeah? 
Well, I mean, yeah, that that 

757
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,800
too you. 
Didn't even plug your own game. 

758
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:10,280
You plugged somebody else's 
game? 

759
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,720
I'm not going to plug my own 
game like that's that's that's 

760
00:46:13,720 --> 00:46:16,720
how this works. 
I may I finally made a thing 

761
00:46:16,720 --> 00:46:18,600
that exists and I'm just going 
to pretend it never did. 

762
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:20,560
And if people find it cool, it's
kind of how I feel about the 

763
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:25,840
show. 
But no, but but for real though,

764
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,120
I I mean you, I've been obsessed
with cauldron. 

765
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:29,720
I played it like a couple times 
already this week. 

766
00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:32,080
I played it like two or three 
times again next week, like, you

767
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,640
know, hill giant games with big 
boy game time and and white 

768
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:37,560
Tiger tablecraft are are fucking
killing it. 

769
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,600
So we'll have to we'll have to 
get you into TTS and and play 

770
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:42,040
some cauldron. 
I think it would. 

771
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,280
Be a different that I I have 
been keeping that in my sights 

772
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:46,840
and yeah, there's. 
Also. 

773
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:51,560
Another game either they 
released or somebody connected 

774
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:57,240
to the released. 
I oh, what was it called? 

775
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,960
You play as like a bunch of like
mechs from like a junkyard or 

776
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:04,600
something and. 
There's Mech 28, there's Flames 

777
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,960
of Orion, there's. 
Flames of Orion, it's part of a 

778
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:10,680
scene called like boss fight or 
something. 

779
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:13,600
Oh big boy Game Time put out the
boss fight scenes. 

780
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,240
That's it, yes. 
OK, then it is, yes. 

781
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:18,400
But yes, I would love to like 
Auldron. 

782
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:24,840
Yeah, I, I literally my, my next
golden Tabletop Simulator is to 

783
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,560
build a map for, for all of the 
original 12 scenarios in the 

784
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:30,440
book. 
So anytime you want to hop in, 

785
00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:32,800
we we, I'm trying to get a 
campaign going. 

786
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:37,000
So we'll see how that goes. 
Yeah, that's the oh, that's the 

787
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:41,520
the Holy Grail of playing like a
skirmish game in my mind, like I

788
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:45,360
was. 
I will admit I was debating my 

789
00:47:46,240 --> 00:47:49,720
as I friend and I were debating 
playing a a campaign of Trench 

790
00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:54,640
Crusade that had I will admit 
that had less to do with the 

791
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,520
game itself and more I just 
really enjoy playing games with 

792
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:03,640
them So but no, I would love to 
at some point I would love to do

793
00:48:03,720 --> 00:48:09,280
A and which is why I'm working 
on it for Verm hack a campaigns 

794
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:13,560
like an actual series of games 
as part of a campaign in a 

795
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:19,160
skirmish game and I despite 
being 32 years old, I still 

796
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:23,920
haven't gotten that yet like. 
You're the youngest person in 

797
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,040
this chat right now, so you 
know, Yeah, you. 

798
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,240
Know it's just plenty of time. 
I guess, but I'm a I'm a 

799
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:32,400
designer. 
God damn it, Like I thought that

800
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:33,680
just. 
I'm a doctor, God damn it. 

801
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,560
Yes, yes, like I, you know, 
imagine being a surgeon and like

802
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,440
you haven't actually like cut 
open anyone yet. 

803
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,240
Like it just feels. 
It feels wrong like. 

804
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,840
Well, hey, listen, if you ever 
want any opinions on any Verm 

805
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,720
hacks you absolutely can ask. 
We will. 

806
00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:51,720
We will give them so yeah. 
And I've actually played it so. 

807
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:53,400
Yeah, I'm not a very opinionated
guy. 

808
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,800
Most people say that I'm not. 
But you know, if you ask me, 

809
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,200
I'll, I'll let you know. 
The biggest? 

810
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:00,760
I also just want to see more 
verm hack. 

811
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,120
I'm just this is just a way for 
me to get in to see Verm hack 

812
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,360
shit, so there. 
You go the I will say this about

813
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,040
Verm hack, the two things that 
I'm currently working on. 

814
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,120
So one is an expansion called 
it's either going to be called 

815
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:19,600
conflict or Bloodlust. 
And that is all about rules for 

816
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:24,840
doing like balanced, balanced 
skirmishes, like, you know, 

817
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:28,800
fully competitive. 
They're going to be rules for 

818
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:33,840
additional combat maneuvers part
of like the the not classes. 

819
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,440
And then I think a few more 
scenarios. 

820
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:42,640
Then the last expansion is going
to be called Delve. 

821
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,880
And that is all about sort of 
like some dungeon crawling and 

822
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:56,920
potentially campaign rules for 
how you how you could play firm 

823
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,680
hack in like a world either 
competitively or cooperatively. 

824
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:03,840
Cool. 
In addition to like also there's

825
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,200
going to be more magic and gods 
and all that. 

826
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,120
The gods are my favorite thing 
to design. 

827
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:08,960
The gods. 
Yeah. 

828
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:13,040
The gods are nice and freaky. 
We do appreciate how how weird 

829
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:15,600
they are. 
They're very good. 

830
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:17,680
So it's. 
Just like meat. 

831
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,280
Like just. 
Yeah, the one that's just like a

832
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:21,000
torso. 
Yeah. 

833
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:27,920
Salg Salg, the body. 
That ends up being the what's 

834
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,560
the term for it that that is the
control for like how the rest of

835
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:33,360
the gods are to be designed. 
Cool. 

836
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,880
Yeah. 
Like like Mario and Super Smash 

837
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,320
Brothers, you know, that's the, 
that's their, that's their one 

838
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,120
when they're that's, that's like
what everything else based off 

839
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:43,680
of. 
But yeah. 

840
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:45,200
Wait, really? 
Yeah. 

841
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:49,120
Totally. 
Mario is like like the base for 

842
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:52,920
all stats and for how all 
mechanics work and everything is

843
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:56,640
a variation off Mario. 
So yeah. 

844
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,720
Did you know ride on is that for
Pokémon? 

845
00:50:59,720 --> 00:51:02,120
Ride On was the first Pokémon I 
ever created and they used it as

846
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:04,640
a base for for like everything. 
Cool. 

847
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,760
Hell yeah. 
Yeah, hey, good little Pokémon 

848
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,240
trivia. 
You know, that's what the show's

849
00:51:11,240 --> 00:51:12,240
for. 
That's. 

850
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:16,560
I would love to speak for 
Vermach more option like some 

851
00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:22,880
like kind of options for like 
Lords that you serve, because I 

852
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:26,320
think that that's like a really 
cool small part of like the 

853
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:28,440
current Vermac because there's 
like the service to a Lord 

854
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:30,400
section and it's like so 
interesting. 

855
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:32,280
And then, like, the narrative 
implications are really 

856
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:34,360
interesting, especially if you 
serve a Lord who's like a 

857
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:39,200
degraded piece of shit, you 
know, which none of us would 

858
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:43,200
know anything about that. 
No, no, we've never we've never 

859
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:48,440
had a we've never had a boss 
that was just a loathsome 

860
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:55,240
parasite. 
But I OK, yeah, I will have to 

861
00:51:55,240 --> 00:52:02,040
add that I also there and this 
it like, I think it's worth like

862
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:06,640
bringing up to you guys is the 
the one thing I am planning for 

863
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:12,920
the campaign is actually about 
fighting against Lords and how 

864
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:16,600
they represent existential 
threats to the world. 

865
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:22,240
And it's like, really? 
That's Gary Courage so. 

866
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,880
I mean, it's like the whole of 
course, like that's the whole 

867
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:29,840
stick is like this is just be 
dealing with my angst with the 

868
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:33,160
world of like, OK, you. 
Know like there's a, like 

869
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,920
there's a level of true honesty 
and relatability to like that, 

870
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,320
that I think that would resonate
really well, you know? 

871
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:42,280
Yeah, so on one hand, I do like,
I actually really do love that 

872
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:45,720
idea that like some Lords give 
you like certain perks, but then

873
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:50,120
I think to balance it, they 
would also give you certain 

874
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:53,040
drawbacks. 
And that at least like 

875
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:57,520
mechanically balances them. 
But like also moralistically I 

876
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:01,000
do want options for like, you 
don't have to serve a Lord 

877
00:53:01,240 --> 00:53:06,400
because fuck them. 
That's yeah, I think now those 

878
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:08,160
are good options. 
Yeah. 

879
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:11,440
I mean, I just like, I love the 
idea of like being sworn to a 

880
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,280
Lord that like, you get a lot 
for it, but he's like, yeah, go 

881
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:18,400
slaughter this town, you know? 
And you're like, oh fuck, I 

882
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:21,200
cannot do that. 
Yeah. 

883
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,160
It's like, sure, Yeah, cool. 
What do I get? 

884
00:53:23,240 --> 00:53:24,680
Yeah. 
You have to, like, make these, 

885
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:29,120
like, moral decisions and, like,
OK, like, as my character. 

886
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:33,160
Or am I like a good person that 
like, sees the value in life and

887
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:35,640
will turn against this Lord if I
need to? 

888
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,960
You know, Yeah. 
That is, I am not going to call 

889
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:41,360
it a failing of mine, because I 
don't think it is. 

890
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:48,520
But like I it is, I remain 
incapable of designing games of 

891
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:52,240
like true villainy. 
In that regards, that's a hard 

892
00:53:52,240 --> 00:53:54,000
thing to hold on to, though, 
because it's like you have to go

893
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,200
to a dark place that you're not 
comfortable being in and talk 

894
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:00,240
about actions that you're no one
would reasonably do. 

895
00:54:00,240 --> 00:54:04,120
Well, I mean, none of us humans 
don't look at our government. 

896
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:06,920
Yeah. 
Like, that's a really hard 

897
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:07,960
space. 
It's a pretty space to hit 

898
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:11,600
correctly without being like, 
like, awful frankly, you know? 

899
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:14,640
Yeah, and it also I don't. 
Put slaughtering a town in that 

900
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:16,840
one, you know. 
Yeah, and it actually. 

901
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:18,920
Inspired by Hunter. 
Oh God. 

902
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:20,200
Yes, yes. 
Oh, yeah. 

903
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:22,400
So here's the Hunter update. 
It's all about like, you know, 

904
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,480
all right, so there's this like,
you know, tech tree of like how 

905
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,520
many towns you slaughter and how
many slaughter, you actually get

906
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:30,640
perks based on that. 
Look at all the money. 

907
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:33,680
Like yeah. 
Then you got to go. 

908
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,240
Then you got to go build data 
centers, you know? 

909
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:41,160
But I think like, yeah, they're 
these rebels. 

910
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:43,360
And then like, yeah, they just 
want to be fed, you know? 

911
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:45,720
That's why they're rebels. 
It's like your Lord sends you to

912
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:48,560
quell this rebellion because 
he's holding food from the 

913
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:49,640
masses. 
You know? 

914
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:53,280
I'm like can. 
I just make a couple of notes. 

915
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:55,800
Yeah, dude. 
Hey, listen, this is take it. 

916
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:57,720
It's fine. 
If I end up using this for 

917
00:54:57,720 --> 00:54:59,600
anything, I still will. 
So you know there. 

918
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:05,000
You go but. 
I might also tap you guys to 

919
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:06,680
play test it at some point. 
Who? 

920
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:08,880
Knows like I would. 
Be at this point I'll be 

921
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:10,040
insulted if you don't. 
Yeah, please. 

922
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:14,320
I don't. 
Know I just, I feel I feel bad 

923
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:16,520
asking people for work. 
I mean, Oh no. 

924
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:17,600
It's not. 
Work. 

925
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:18,800
That's fun. 
Yeah. 

926
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:19,160
Fair. 
Enough. 

927
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:22,320
Fair enough. 
Like, yeah, that would be a joy 

928
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:25,520
to do. 
Also, the space is like, you 

929
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:29,160
know, it's about like, creating 
like these fun games and this 

930
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:33,200
experience and like, like, yeah,
creators should be paid. 

931
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:37,520
But like, also, like we all, in 
our own ways, kind of lend our 

932
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:41,000
energy to the space for free. 
Ryan and I do this show just to 

933
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:43,840
bring attention to stuff. 
You know, you release art packs 

934
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:46,880
for like a very affordable price
for like a lot of like really 

935
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:50,960
great art that also support the 
space, like doing a play test to

936
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:53,400
help support a thing that we 
already like. 

937
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:57,520
Is it really like work in the 
same way as like me going and 

938
00:55:57,520 --> 00:55:59,120
clocking? 
I would never work for free from

939
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:04,640
my boss, you know? 
Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, not 

940
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:07,920
all time has to be commodified, 
like not all hobbies have to be,

941
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:10,720
you know, and it might be like 
work for you, but it's hobby for

942
00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:13,600
us to to play the games. 
I mean, you know, and This is 

943
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,440
why we're like this too. 
Like this is the fun part for 

944
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:17,960
us. 
We get to talk to, you know, 

945
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:21,760
someone who we generally very 
deeply like enjoy their work and

946
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,080
and respect them as a person and
as an artist. 

947
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:26,240
So like this is this is this is 
the fun part. 

948
00:56:26,240 --> 00:56:28,760
This is why we're not monetized 
because this is the fun part, 

949
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:32,320
you know, like so. 
Well, now I'm getting bashful, 

950
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:39,080
but no, genuinely, I appreciate 
that and likewise to you guys 

951
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:44,600
like also he just had Robbie on 
not too long ago not to like. 

952
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:46,760
Yeah, we did. 
The whole I was chatting with 

953
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:51,960
the whole Hinterlight team or 
Gossamer Coast over there, Yeah.

954
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:56,760
Fair enough? 
Well, I, well, I, I hate to end 

955
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,560
on this beat, but like I, I do 
have to go in a little bit, but 

956
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:02,800
I did want to say like, I, oh, 
thank you for having me on. 

957
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:04,680
And this has been like really 
fun to talk about it. 

958
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:08,240
And I'm also like, I'm, I'm so 
glad to be able to talk about 

959
00:57:08,240 --> 00:57:14,400
verb hack because I like, I'm 
not going to say the rest of the

960
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:17,160
stuff that I do is just work 
because I, I'm very passionate 

961
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:21,600
about that and I love it too. 
But Verm Hack is, like I said, 

962
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:28,320
it's it's I'm doing that because
it's my hobby and I love it and 

963
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:30,280
I look forward to sharing more 
of it. 

964
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:31,960
Yeah. 
Well, hey, listen, in the 

965
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:34,880
future, if you would win and if 
you do release more Verm hack 

966
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,320
stuff, please come back on and 
we'll talk about it some more. 

967
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:39,960
You have a lot of really great 
stuff that we didn't even touch 

968
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:41,720
on. 
We even talked about like, what 

969
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:44,320
am I thinking of? 
What am I blanking about? 

970
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:46,320
As the God demands, as the 
gospel. 

971
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,080
I love that one. 
That's actually. 

972
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:51,840
Fun. 
I love hacking clerics to not be

973
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:55,000
clerics and have to make big 
sacrifices to do cleric shit. 

974
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,000
Yeah, just so you know, I do 
have several of your books, but 

975
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:00,880
my bookshelf is currently 
blocked with boxes because we 

976
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,040
moved in like a month and a half
ago and haven't unpacked 

977
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:04,000
everything. 
So. 

978
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:10,040
One day I I can't get away from 
them at this point they fill in 

979
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:13,240
the space so. 
Sort of like every minute they 

980
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:17,000
sort of get closer and. 
Yeah, no, yeah, they do. 

981
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:20,680
They really do. 
But no, seriously, thank you so 

982
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:23,640
much for coming on again. 
Like please, please come on 

983
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,960
again anytime. 
Just hit me up and come, come 

984
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:29,080
play the game on the stream. 
Come talk about the game on the 

985
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:31,760
stream, you know, permanent 
invite to just, I mean, come on 

986
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:32,760
once a month. 
I don't care. 

987
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:34,280
Like, you know, we, we love your
stuff. 

988
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:36,120
You're, you're genuinely 
wonderful. 

989
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,600
So we really, really appreciate 
you coming on the show. 

990
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:40,680
I. 
Appreciate that. 

991
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:44,560
And, and, and, and where, where 
can people find your stuff? 

992
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:47,000
Like where, where can they find 
Feral Indy Studio and where can 

993
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:48,920
they find all of the stuff that 
we've been talking about? 

994
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:54,320
We have a website, 
feralindystudio.com, so there's 

995
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:56,960
that. 
And then there's also I highly 

996
00:58:56,960 --> 00:58:59,640
recommend checking out like we 
have an itch Feral Indy studio 

997
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:04,600
dot H dot IO. 
Alex has an itch page as well. 

998
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:08,320
I think it's Alex. 
I think it's AE coggin 

999
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:14,920
illustration at it's dot I 
anyway, she also has a Patreon. 

1000
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:17,280
If you're interested in her in 
her artwork. 

1001
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:22,960
Just look up her name, Alex E 
coggin illustration on Patreon. 

1002
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:29,800
And aside from that, I, I think 
we're on, I think you could 

1003
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:32,960
physically buy some of our books
on IPR, but the rest of them you

1004
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:36,520
can buy actually directly from 
us on our website there. 

1005
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:40,800
You go get out, take the long 
walk to the warehouse and and 

1006
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:43,480
mail them. 
Yeah, I have to do it for some 

1007
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:45,440
more coffee down there anyway, 
so I. 

1008
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:49,640
But be, like I said, thank you. 
Seriously, thank you so much for

1009
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:50,960
coming on. 
It has been an absolute 

1010
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:52,240
pleasure. 
I hope we get the chance to do 

1011
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:54,040
this again. 
Definitely. 

1012
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:56,160
Likewise. 
Thank you. 

1013
00:59:56,280 --> 01:00:00,480
Yes, if I'd open invite exists, 
I will take it like a. 

1014
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:02,360
Please, please. 
Yeah, please do. 

1015
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:06,280
But yeah. 
So that has been us for today. 

1016
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:08,960
All the links will be where you 
think links are on the Internet.

1017
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:12,160
And we will see you all next 
time. 

1018
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:13,000
Thank you so much. 
Bye. 

1019
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:13,960
Bye.