1 00:00:15,290 --> 00:00:17,610 Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll Podcast. 2 00:00:17,610 --> 00:00:20,250 My name is Ryan and joining me today is wife Marshall of Step 3 00:00:20,250 --> 00:00:21,690 Lead Studio. How you doing this morning wife? 4 00:00:22,410 --> 00:00:23,170 Good. How you doing man? 5 00:00:24,570 --> 00:00:27,290 You know, just trying to get my brain all in the same direction. 6 00:00:27,290 --> 00:00:29,850 And we're slowly getting there. But but it'll happen. 7 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,120 Yeah. So so you're here and we are 8 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,240 talking the grit system today as well as I'm sure a bunch of 9 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:40,720 other stuff. But before we get into the 10 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:42,920 conversation, for those that might not know, you might not 11 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,560 have watched your podcast, might not have seen you here before on 12 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:46,840 the show. Who? 13 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:48,840 Who the heck is wife Marshall and and what is still Flee 14 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,080 Studio? Yeah, thanks. 15 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,680 I'm wife and I'm a writer primarily and game designer. 16 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,120 When I'm designing games, I do some other things, but mostly 17 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,720 I'm I'm writing the words and talking with artists about the 18 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,920 art and visual design. I also started a company when I 19 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:09,120 launched a first game that felt like more than just a free thing 20 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,160 for my friends, but something where we wanted to print a book 21 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,120 and different people had different ideas about basically 22 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,680 other products. So it was a game line that was 23 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:18,320 called Still Fleet and the company's called the Still Fleet 24 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:19,600 Studio. So that's pretty simple. 25 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,360 The system was fun that we made for the game, which is unique, 26 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:25,320 and we ended up making other games with it. 27 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,560 And so shout out to, you know, Ethan Gould who worked on Still 28 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,440 Fleet and then Anthony Grasso who was on Weekly Scroll who 29 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:34,360 made blister critters using the grid system. 30 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:39,040 Chris Pickett, whom I do the podcast with Why We Roll, which 31 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,400 is about game design, really getting into the weeds of 32 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,560 specifically indie TTRP GS and politics and history basically. 33 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,480 And then Ethan's game is coming out as well, and we have a 34 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,560 couple other games that published a different grid 35 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,280 system game with plus one XP who are really great, love working 36 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,800 with them. So it's kind of grown from one 37 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,000 game, my sci-fi game I play with my friends, to a bunch of games 38 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,280 with sort of the same system, but it's different every time in 39 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,039 the way that I think to some degree games should be sort of 40 00:02:09,039 --> 00:02:11,880 unique little objects like otherwise, why is it its own 41 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:13,760 game and not like a hack for an existing game? 42 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,240 So we can get into that. But yeah, we we basically make 43 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,120 tabletop role-playing games. We have made one card game 44 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:21,320 that's a spin off that's very fun. 45 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,160 My friend Aaron made a fast play like set making game in the 46 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,720 still fleet world. It's meant to be actually a card 47 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,920 game about of like ATV show about doctors who help robots 48 00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:32,360 who were broken. It's called Robot Hospital. 49 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,960 So shout out to Aaron H. And that was fun and very 50 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:38,840 different. I'm not a board game expert. 51 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:40,600 I like them, but, you know, I'm really an RPG writer. 52 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:43,760 And where we're at now is, yeah. I mean, we're, we're focused on 53 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,360 expanding not only our own system, but really just putting 54 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,920 out good games that that take a couple boxes, really focus on 55 00:02:49,920 --> 00:02:53,640 politics and body horror as like very, very broad themes taken 56 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:55,480 very loosely. Like our main goal is fun games, 57 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,520 but we do try to make games that have some sort of intention 58 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:00,480 behind them. And we're all leftist, you know, 59 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:02,240 we're basically communist. I don't know if some other 60 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:04,120 members of the team might be more on the anarchist side of 61 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,040 things, but that just informs kind of how we're thinking about 62 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,120 like, OK, well, if we make a game, let's maybe not say kill 63 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,280 all the goblins for no reason just because they're quote UN 64 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:13,880 quote evil. Let's think about, you know, a 65 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:15,000 situation that's more interesting. 66 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,200 So we've we've tried to challenge ourselves and use that 67 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,680 as a three line without actually explicitly sort of making the 68 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,680 games, you know, didactic. Like they're not teaching 69 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,440 instruments. They're fun, so I can go into 70 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,600 each of the games, which again, are not all by me, but but yeah, 71 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:30,360 I wanted to. I mean, today we were mostly 72 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,400 excited to chat because we've been trying to catch up and it 73 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,440 feels like the right time to me because we're about to launch 74 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:37,480 our first ever Crit system game jam. 75 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,880 So we just published today the license, so anyone can make 76 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:42,080 stuff for any of our games for free. 77 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,200 You can make it commercial, do whatever, just credit us 78 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,880 basically. It's pretty permissive and 79 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:49,960 that's that's how we roll, obviously, and that's something 80 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,600 we support in general that games and we're we've been probably 81 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,200 kind of behind just because we were moving really quickly. 82 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,160 We went from one game to like now there's six grid system 83 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,040 games out there. So we wanted to sort of step 84 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,520 back and say how could we support people who might want to 85 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:05,400 use versions of the system, but to do their own thing. 86 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:07,640 They want to do a hack and they're not sure, you know, if 87 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:08,840 they can put it on the itch or whatever, right. 88 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,240 So we wanted to sort of make sure that people felt like, yes, 89 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,400 please do that, right? And, and also just learn and, 90 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:17,480 and, you know, see what cool ideas other people have had. 91 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,600 Because that's to me, maybe the most fun part honestly, is, is 92 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,640 not just like seeing my own writing published, but being 93 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,920 able to work with my friends and make new friends, as corny as 94 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,720 that might sound, you know, you know, when it comes to, you 95 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,560 know, to, to game design broadly, I mean, you know, art, 96 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:33,920 writing, whatever, all of it. So. 97 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,320 That's why a lot of people do it, you know, and getting making 98 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,160 a thing and then seeing people enjoy it and talk about it and 99 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,000 then make things with it is is an incredible feeling. 100 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:46,520 So like, why not, you know, push that? 101 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,200 But let's let's wind all the way back to the beginning of this 102 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,560 and let's talk about still fleet real quick and and in the 103 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,880 original grit system game. So why so you said Still Fleet 104 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:00,200 is a sci-fi game you play with your friends as AT&T writer. 105 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,480 Was it actually the first thing you wrote or was there like a 106 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,640 bunch of stuff in docs 1st and that's the one that worked? 107 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:06,680 Or is that just a home game that kind of developed and you're 108 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:08,200 like, you know what? This could be a book. 109 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,760 Let's make this thing. Yeah, it was really the first 110 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:13,800 full game. I mean it, it definitely started 111 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,800 in the era of the blogs, the Grognard blogs, the Black Hack, 112 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:21,080 and that era of like reading in the blogosphere, different 113 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:22,160 versions of Dungeons and Dragons. 114 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,880 So we still call the D&D and I've been playing a lot of Colin 115 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,600 Cthulhu in D&D and I had grown up playing like Traveler and 116 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:30,120 especially the World of Darkness games. 117 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,280 And Trinity was probably my favorite, which is a sci-fi game 118 00:05:32,280 --> 00:05:34,160 using that World of Darkness D10 system. 119 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,200 But I was really into that early like reading on the Internet 120 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,480 even around when Twitter started. 121 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:41,920 And it definitely Twitter is a part of it. 122 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,760 Like other people's ideas for how to make DND better by like 123 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,760 now, I'd say probably D making it was a lot of the goal and a 124 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:50,800 lot of it was sort of now you'd say again, like picking 125 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:52,800 touchstones thematically. So I definitely did that as 126 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,240 like, OK, my world is sci-fi, it's in the far future, right? 127 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,120 So it's not goblins and elves. And here are things that exist. 128 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,360 Here's things that don't exist and that all of those things 129 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,200 have remained true and basically become still fleet. 130 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,840 I've definitely become better at the game design part, probably 131 00:06:06,840 --> 00:06:09,000 the GM ING and storytelling, although I feel like that's what 132 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:10,920 I came in with it, you know, as a writer and a performer. 133 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,240 That was stuff I found fun. But the game design I spent a 134 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,120 lot of time, you know, I remember Newman Era came out and 135 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,320 I was basically done with still feet and was like, oh man, is 136 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,120 this better, worse? Like we have to sort of play 137 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,320 Newman era now and and and see and that. 138 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,240 So, you know, it evolved. The name changed from 100 139 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,320 million years in the future to I think at one point like Strange 140 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,080 tomorrow's or something to I think at one point all the files 141 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,040 were just a headless giant, which was kind of the name of 142 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,040 the campaign. And still Fleet was much later. 143 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,760 Still Fleet in the idea of specifically the company's role 144 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,520 was the thing I've spent the most time on in terms of 145 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,160 narrative design as opposed to like mechanical like dice 146 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,040 rolling. So the dice rolling was kind of 147 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,360 in the middle. The urge to do a sci-fi D&D that 148 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,720 was good was the beginning and the end was kind of OK. 149 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,360 It's really about quietly quitting space Marines or 150 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:56,480 malingering. Like now I say it's like 151 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,480 Severance meets 40K. So it's like you are in the far 152 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,080 future, but you know you're a bad guy and you need to change 153 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,080 the dynamic and you're not sure what to do because you're 1 154 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,400 worker and so there isn't really a mechanic and still Fleet one. 155 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,440 I am thinking about it for Still Fleet 2 because we're we're 156 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,520 thinking about that right now. What would a second edition be? 157 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,120 But could you flip the whole story on its table and and, you 158 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,000 know, ally with other workers and actually destroy the 159 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,480 company? Or is it just left open like it 160 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:22,840 wasn't still feet one where, you know, if you want to do that, 161 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,040 that's the campaign. If you want to do other stories, 162 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,840 that there are other stories implied and there's plenty to do 163 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:29,840 in that world. But yeah, it was basically a 164 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:31,880 process of probably for a decade writing, you know, kind of 165 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:33,960 science fictional adventures for my friends. 166 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,640 The system changed a lot and even the narrative structure was 167 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:38,800 really tightened right at the end. 168 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:40,920 But it was pretty much one continuous game. 169 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,040 I don't think at any point I thought, oh, this will be two 170 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:44,920 different things. Or, you know, it was always 171 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:49,640 like, you know, using some of the same tropes, a few of which 172 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,600 have survived the whole, that whole like process, which I 173 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,800 think is probably typical from the folks we've talked to and 174 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:56,360 why we were all, I don't know if that's been your experience. 175 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:58,240 You know, that there's a few kernels that are like like 176 00:07:58,240 --> 00:07:59,960 algae. I was like, bet this game has 177 00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:02,040 hella algae. There's algae in the beginning. 178 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,040 There's always going to be algae nanotechnology, you know, 179 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,280 certain like Touchstone, just like things as AGM that that I 180 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,480 can throw out there. And even certain mechanics, 181 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,720 certain moments, narrative moments that that the system 182 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,200 later sort of brought together. So having like a named system 183 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,320 that makes sense took a while, but was also useful for going 184 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,160 back and saying, OK, how does this intersect with like those 185 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,280 initial bullet point ideas and some stuff gets lost or along 186 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:27,560 the way or you have to reconsider it. 187 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:32,400 But you know, it's a process. Yeah, you know, it's, it's 188 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,039 really interesting the way that games are just like made in 189 00:08:35,039 --> 00:08:36,240 general. And we could got, we could have 190 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,600 a whole a whole conversation about that. 191 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:43,000 But specifically, I mean, people who kind of like write games 192 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:44,360 because it's the game that they're playing with their 193 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:45,920 friends. And eventually it becomes kind 194 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,640 of like more of a product. And to me, those are the ones 195 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:51,640 that always feel like they have the most depth to them. 196 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,680 They have the most like things going on because it was meant to 197 00:08:55,680 --> 00:08:57,480 be played and it was meant to be played in the way that you like 198 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:01,320 you, your brain works, not in a way that's like, all right, I 199 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,080 need to make a, an X game because X is popular right now. 200 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,920 You know what I mean? Like you're, you're, you're not 201 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,280 like solving a problem. You're, you know what I mean? 202 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,360 You're not like designing to a thing. 203 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,120 It's just a thing that grew up and out of it. 204 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:15,920 And I mean, you can tell it's definitely too. 205 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,320 I mean, there's so much like depth in the system, but even at 206 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:19,480 its core. And like, you know, again, one 207 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,200 of the reasons we're here today is talk about the grit system 208 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,600 and all the things from it. And it's really interesting. 209 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,320 You basically have like a home system now because like, you 210 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,400 know, one of the other companies that pops in my head when I hear 211 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,680 the way you talk about is a little bit of the, the year 0 212 00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:36,280 engine from Free League, how they there is a core system to 213 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,520 it. But like each game uses it in a 214 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,880 slightly different way. And I really like the way that 215 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,520 you guys are doing the very similar thing with your grit 216 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:44,640 system. Because when you look at like 217 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,400 still fleet versus like blister critters versus like dance by 218 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,240 Cobb and and all this other stuff, you're like, these are 219 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:50,920 three very, very different games. 220 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,000 But at their core, the dice, if you really break it down, are 221 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,960 are it's it's the same very, very deep core system, but it's 222 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,520 also designed to be a system that can be used in all of these 223 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,680 various ways and built on top of it in like a cool modular. 224 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,960 It's not like a it's not a system something like ether 225 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,760 Reich or something where it feels like this is a a game 226 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,320 designed for this one story and the mechanics will reinforce 227 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,640 that it you can with each one, but it's still very adaptable. 228 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,520 So for those that haven't read Still Fleet haven't haven't got 229 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,200 into the grit system at all, like really breaking it down to 230 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,680 like chopping off all of like the narrative bits, all the 231 00:10:24,680 --> 00:10:28,160 other stuff to talk to me about the grid system, like why? 232 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:30,280 You know, I'll pull up some graphics from Still Fleet. 233 00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:32,280 We talked about this before it started. 234 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:34,560 Let me hide this little window here. 235 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,040 Wonderful graphics from the core page with these like exploded 236 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,600 out dice and everything. So you said you came in as an as 237 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,280 an entertainer as AGM. So system wise, like what was it 238 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,600 like to get that system up off the ground? 239 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:50,720 What what pulled you directly to this? 240 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,400 And I guess to start, what what the heck is a grid system like 241 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,080 mechanically? Yeah, yeah. 242 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,200 I mean that that's what it all boils down to if you're asking 243 00:10:58,200 --> 00:10:59,360 people to try a new system, right? 244 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,440 Which in this day and age, it's like there's something like, why 245 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,760 not, you know, just do something, you know, DND or 246 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:07,600 Pbta. But I look short stories like I 247 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:09,200 did a lot of both of those systems. 248 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,560 And while I like them OK, I wanted something that that had 249 00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:15,160 ranges that were much more restricted to DND, meaning like 250 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,280 if you roll AD 20, there's just so much randomness and there's a 251 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:22,400 lot of math and even the OSR versions, man, even the Black 252 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,360 Hack and Merk Borg, and now you know, whatever version you want, 253 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:26,720 you're still doing a lot of math. 254 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,720 So I didn't like the complexity, the crunchiness, as we say, 255 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:32,920 right of of tradition, I'd say all track games, right? 256 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,440 The D1 hundreds and the D 20s and even the fistful of D 10s, 257 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,400 which I did think was better and probably was in the deep back 258 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:40,600 part of my brand, the inspiration. 259 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,840 So this sort of World of Darkness rolls a bunch of D 10's 260 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:48,240 and get successes with somehow easier to sort of parse at the 261 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,000 same time with PBTA. I like PBTA writing a lot and a 262 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,040 lot of the designers, but I don't think that 2D6 make 263 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,000 something up. It feels like you need a binary 264 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,040 like something succeeds or fails to have epic cinematic moments. 265 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,360 And I found for players and I would say for GM's, it's harder 266 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,240 to get into that with PBTA as a engine, as a dice engine. 267 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:09,200 So what our system is, is just at at core, you're just rolling 268 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,040 a dice that is not AD 20. It's smaller and you're trying 269 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,280 to get a six or better. So these should only be rolled 270 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,880 if there's a big cinematic, hard to do moment happening between 271 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:19,880 characters, right? Like if you're walking down the 272 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,520 street, don't roll dice. You know, if you're telling a 273 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,360 funny story, just tell the story or say I told the funny story, 274 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,040 whatever. If you want to do something that 275 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,440 a normal human would probably have a hard time doing, we'd 276 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,240 sort of model that by saying, OK, roll AD 6. 277 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,480 If you get a six, you succeed. Now you're generally sort of 278 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:36,280 super heroic in these games. You're anti heroic. 279 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,280 So you might start with dice that are better than AD 6, but 280 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,440 just to give a sense of like the scale, we're just simulating 281 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,240 everything as a one in six chance if it's kind of hard, but 282 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:47,720 a normal human could probably do it. 283 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,040 And then you are trained or good at certain stuff, right? 284 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,360 You're min maxed because you're a player character in an RPG. 285 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,360 So it's some kind of power fantasy, whether it's space 286 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,960 fantasy, little messed up little guys, you know, you're rolling 287 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,160 AD 8AD10AD12, whatever you're rolling. 288 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:05,400 So the different games have different arrays for your 289 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,480 scores, but you're always just rolling one dice at a time, one 290 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,080 die and trying to get a six or better. 291 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:12,040 The other core mechanic is boosting. 292 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:13,280 So you have a resource called grit. 293 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,160 And again, it's somewhat different in different games. 294 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,160 Usually you start with around 14 to 22, somewhere around there, 295 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:20,960 and usually it's determined by your score. 296 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,000 So really simple math and you make a character, you're adding 297 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,040 two scores together, right? So if it's a six and a six, you 298 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:26,760 get a 12. If it's a 12 and 12, you get a 299 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,360 24. That'd be the maximum range, 300 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,440 which is pretty uncommon to have either a 12 or 24. 301 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,800 And when you're burning grit, you can burn 3-6 or nine to add 302 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,000 a flat just plus 3 + 6 or +9 to your roll. 303 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,640 So if you're trying to get a six or better, if you're adding a +6 304 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,120 or +9, the only way you can fail, the only reason to roll is 305 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,200 if you roll A1. So if you have a really good 306 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,240 dice, you have a you have AD 12, It's very unlikely, but it's 307 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,320 still possible that you roll A1. And of course we do try to 308 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,400 incentivize and a lot of this you can't make GM's do, but you 309 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,840 can sort of teach through the bulleted like GM advice, you 310 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,680 know, fail forward. Like rolling A1 doesn't mean a 311 00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:03,800 hilarious to a 12 year old. Like they dropped their sword 312 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,880 while fighting the dragon. It's like maybe they did hit the 313 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,840 dragon, but that, you know, that the dragon, you know, basically 314 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,560 finds their Achilles heel or there's kind of a psychological 315 00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:16,400 moment, there's a terror moment, you know. 316 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,840 So I think the idea that you want constrained ice ranges that 317 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,720 are really, really quick for GM's and players to visually 318 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,920 look at, you either got ultimately A6 or better. 319 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,280 You did no math or very little math. 320 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,080 You added one thing, right, was the goal. 321 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,400 And once we hit upon the system of the different scores being 322 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,800 different dice types, that was like mechanically it felt very 323 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,360 elegant and it wasn't really, it's like everything devolved 324 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,560 from that. So once we had that kind of idea 325 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,680 for me, Sophie kind of came together very rapidly in a sense 326 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,520 into more of a coherent game and less of like weird GM notes to 327 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,480 myself for my friends, you know, and then I think, I can't speak 328 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,280 for Tony, but I think blister critters, which is the second 329 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,000 game. He he said, I like your system. 330 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,880 I I basically made a hack before playing little animals and he 331 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:02,240 did change. I mean, you know, there it's a 332 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:04,720 different game, as you said, but it used that same insight. 333 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:06,560 If you're trying to get a six, you have different scores. 334 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,480 And it was really fun to play. I mean it again right away, it 335 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,400 was like, yeah, this works. And so from there, we haven't, 336 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:15,960 to your point, been chasing like market opportunities. 337 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,320 We've been making games where someone says, hey, I have an 338 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,560 idea. Here's how it works with the 339 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,120 system. Here's what's different, you 340 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,160 know, what's new. And basically everyone nods and 341 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:27,280 says, wow, that's a really good idea. 342 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,160 I'd like, I'd like to play that, you know, and we try to bring it 343 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:31,920 to life. And what I've found is there 344 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,960 isn't, you know, maybe chasing the market is a Better Business 345 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:35,400 strategy. I don't know. 346 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,800 I'm not a business person primarily, but I've learned that 347 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,120 there is a sort of, you know, we talk about authenticity or aura. 348 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,480 Like if we're doing stuff we actually want to play and play 349 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,600 more than once, like play maybe in a little arc or maybe a 350 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,240 campaign, you know, then it's more likely that other players 351 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,640 will see that and kind of get like, like you're saying, like, 352 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,360 OK, this is actually something a little bit unique. 353 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,160 There's something there that it isn't sort of IP or chasing a 354 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,080 sort of fad. And the system is is fine. 355 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,160 I mean, I don't think at the end of the day, I'll only ever make 356 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:07,920 games for the system. But right now we're excited 357 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,880 about it because beyond myself, I mean, there been a bunch of 358 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:12,480 other creators who made games for it. 359 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,000 And we wanted to kind of make sure that people know like 360 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,280 there's an SRD, there's a license, there's third party 361 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:20,480 like logos. So like we're giving it away, 362 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,200 you know, we want people to hack it. 363 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:23,200 Do you make it? Whatever. 364 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,400 And you know, I'm happy to talk more about some specifics of, 365 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:28,520 you know, some of those sort of sub mechanics. 366 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,440 You're not always just rolling a dice and trying to get a six. 367 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,400 There are plenty of other cool things we've come up with, but 368 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,880 that's that's really the core. Yeah, you know, and it's 369 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,800 interesting. This is one of the reasons we do 370 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,760 the show and love to talk to people too, because the way that 371 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,640 you can read a game and then hearing the person who made the 372 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,240 game talk about why they made the game is always a really 373 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,160 interesting thing. Right? 374 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:56,040 You? One thing you specifically hit 375 00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:02,120 on is PBTAI. I'm not a fan of Pbta because I 376 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,680 don't like moves. To me, a move, it feels like I 377 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:08,680 have an infinite amount of choice and suddenly I'm like 378 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,160 funneled into this tiny little space and then once that 379 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,480 resolves, I have infinite choices again. 380 00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:17,560 But I love 2 to 6 mix success. It's actually my favorite 381 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:23,040 mechanic because to me it's a it's a yes, But and I like that 382 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,319 aspect of Adm kind of feeling that I need to improv as much as 383 00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:29,680 a player's. But I completely understand why 384 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,240 you said what you said about the grit system being like instead 385 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,080 of having this kind of like improv thing, having this like 386 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,120 binary, because the things you're doing are these heroic 387 00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:41,000 actions that think so like having a success, having yes, 388 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,480 you succeed or yes, you fail is a very important for those 389 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,280 moments and running games and thinking about games like it's 390 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,840 really interesting thinking about how those works in 391 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:51,600 different games. So for example, like with the 392 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,280 PBTA mix success, as I was saying, that mechanic is 393 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,680 automatically saying like there's never really going to be 394 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,000 like there's not often a pure success and a pure failure. 395 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:04,800 And a lot of it is like the resolution mechanic is designed 396 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,520 to just roll the action forward constantly versus the grid 397 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,480 system where it feels like you said, it's more like if you 398 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,160 don't need to interact with the resolution mechanic, just keep 399 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,080 it going. And the resolution mechanic is 400 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,200 designed for those times where you do need a binary. 401 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,720 So it's really interesting take on that solution and to use it 402 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:24,880 specifically in the game that you you designed, as you said, 403 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,160 it's like space Marines meet severance, you know, and, and 404 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:32,280 needing those binary choices. So, you know, again, it's 405 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,520 interesting to think about that and and the 11 in six chance. 406 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,440 Well, I also think it comes down because you're picking up on the 407 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,280 other big part of Pbta, which I would say the grid system is 408 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,240 most close to in my head, Pbta, which maybe makes no sense to 409 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,320 anybody else. But in terms of the sort of like 410 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,840 lineage, you know, there's, there's DND and traveler groups 411 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:51,760 type systems, you know, D 20s and D1 hundreds. 412 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,640 And then at some point there's Pbta and I'm sure there's other, 413 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,080 you know, I'm eclipsing a lot of time there, right? 414 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,240 But for me it felt like, OK, Apocalypse World was kind of a 415 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:01,600 revelation. And I really liked a game called 416 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:06,560 Tremulus, which was like a, you know, love crafty and horror. 417 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:08,880 And there was a version of that derelict adrift that was like 418 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,120 far future. And that got me thinking, OK, I 419 00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:13,960 don't love this mechanic, but I love this. 420 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,240 The the idea of stripping things down to story focused what I 421 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,560 call powers. So I just also decided early on, 422 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,080 very early on, you know, they're not moves, their powers. 423 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,760 I can go into why that is, but in my head it just made it 424 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,600 sounded more correct. It's like this is really what 425 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,080 we're talking about guys, right? Like a move, like the GM moves 426 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,400 in Apocalypse World I think are great, but they're not powers 427 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,240 that have mechanics, whereas the player moves are traditional or 428 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,760 TTRPG powers with mechanics. So I just sort of separated that 429 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:41,040 out. So in jamming advice, OK, you 430 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,280 have moves, but you're not rolling things. 431 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,800 You're the GM, you're thinking about, you know, noir back 432 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:52,960 story, like surprises, you know, people's, you know, romantic 433 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,960 relationships or like evil bosses or something. 434 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:57,920 They said last session it was funny that you could bring back 435 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,040 in that's not really a power. And then the PCs need sort of 436 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,840 interesting stuff to do. Generally, I like adventure 437 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:05,520 games. We grew up behind them, so we 438 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,320 tried to make better adventure games, you know, so give them 439 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,680 powers that they can use. Those have mechanics. 440 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,680 So for me that insight that powers can be strictly 441 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:14,560 narrative. Like a power just happens and it 442 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,360 just changes the plot. You burn the grid. 443 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:17,840 So generally our powers cost grid. 444 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,360 Not all. Some might be, you know, some 445 00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:23,680 passive weirdness or you get an. An interesting item or something 446 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,000 like that. But generally the powers cost 447 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:26,760 grit and they're they're in time, you know, you have to 448 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,400 choose to use them. They're active, you burn grit, 449 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,320 something happens and it changes the plot. 450 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,840 It just happens and it it's a big swing and I liked that a lot 451 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,400 and I liked the idea that different classes would be 452 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,360 defined by their powers. So it's very simple, you know, 453 00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:41,040 it's a flat hierarchy. There's a bunch of powers for 454 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:42,960 any game. You group them into sort of 455 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,200 different clusters and OK, that's a class. 456 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,600 Or in blister critters, they're called blister paths, you know, 457 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,880 so your little animal, you have some animal powers, actually, 458 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,040 you have two animal powers, but then you get another couple 459 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,640 powers that are more sort of super heroic based on your sort 460 00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,840 of mutations in this body horror apocalypse, right. 461 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,600 And that way to design games felt very natural and it allowed 462 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,960 us to do a lot very quickly across still fleet blister 463 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:07,480 critters. And then eventually what became, 464 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:09,480 you know, now dots macabre and and some other games. 465 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,080 And we've been working forever on a couple high fantasy 466 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:14,640 versions. So now we have 1 Zine coming out 467 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,800 of the sometimes Kingdom RPG by Ethan Gould, but we've been 468 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,680 working other, other sort of skins of like more like D&D 469 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,240 experience, right? But using some of these same 470 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,000 powers tied to the same essential scores and dice 471 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,840 rolling and, and feeling that out and saying, OK, for some of 472 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:30,760 these games, we'd want to tweak this or tweak that. 473 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,000 But but it, but it's funny, I, I completely hear what you're 474 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,120 saying and I think it is maybe style to some degree. 475 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,560 So for me, PBTA is those two things, the mixed successes and 476 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,560 the the narrative powers. And I love the narrative powers 477 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:44,320 and hate the mixed successes. Sounds like you're the opposite. 478 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,520 But it reminds me, we talked to Mark Diaz Truman, who I I love. 479 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,560 I think he's one of the better writers out there and designers 480 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:52,680 at Magpie Games. And he had said, you know, why 481 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:54,520 do you need another system? When we were talking about grit 482 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,640 and Pbta, he said, you know, there's a lot of good systems 483 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,040 there. You know, people can't learn 484 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,000 that many in their lives and really play with their friends. 485 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,520 There's probably 10 or so at any time that writers are going to 486 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,920 write for. It's not, you know, he he was 487 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:06,720 saying in a nice way, right? But it was this challenge of 488 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,720 like what, you know, how can you sort of define yours to be 489 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,200 different enough from one of those other things? 490 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,400 So it's not just doing the same work. 491 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:16,760 And I do think grit is, is different enough. 492 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,640 I would say. So it it isn't as crunchy as the 493 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,200 crunchy ones. It's not super rules light and 494 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,800 with Pbta and fortune the dark and and all the sort of Pbta 495 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,440 adjacent versions, it is similar, but it doesn't have 496 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,400 mixed successes. And it it it really foregrounds, 497 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,560 I think the narrative powers and with boosting with grit. 498 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,600 It foregrounds just player agency in a way where you really 499 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,080 get to say like, yeah, I'm going to like it makes sense, right. 500 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,120 I'm going to really, really, really try at this moment. 501 00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:43,600 And I feel like in all our lives, we know those moments. 502 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,680 We were like, oh fuck, like I have to really, really like 503 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,800 write this report today or, you know, hit this three pointer to 504 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:52,480 win the game or whatever, right, whatever it is that you're 505 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,640 simulating. And so I think there are things 506 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,200 that the system does that are unique and that that has been 507 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,640 easier to explain over time now having made a bunch of games 508 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,160 with it and and refined it, right. 509 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,640 So that's why only now are we sort of saying, OK, now we're 510 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,520 doing a game jam and here's the license and all this because, 511 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,400 you know, we wanted to kick the tires, it turns out quite a bit 512 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,520 so. I so I'm going to, I'm going to, 513 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,000 I'm going to rant for a real quick second. 514 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,320 I can't possibly fucking hate more. 515 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,480 Anytime anyone says what that person said to you like it puts 516 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,840 me into a blind fucking rage. Who gives a fuck how many 517 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:28,680 systems there are No one, no one complaints about like another 518 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,360 card game. No one complaints about another 519 00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:32,720 board game. No one says why are there video 520 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:34,200 games? We've already have all the video 521 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,160 games. Why is it only in the TTRBG 522 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,760 space? Does everyone define it? 523 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,920 But well, there's people only write for 10. 524 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,200 There's six, there's 8 fucking there's a billions of people in 525 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,360 the world, right? And at any given time someone 526 00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:48,840 could see your system versus the other nine that people are 527 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,000 writing for or whatever. So who gives a fuck? 528 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:56,040 Like I hate this constant like just down putting of system 529 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,360 especially to just like well we have plenty they all work. 530 00:23:58,360 --> 00:24:00,840 It's fuck off. Like just because they've 531 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,800 existed before doesn't mean it's the first one the people are 532 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:04,160 going to encounter. Doesn't mean it's one that 533 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:05,800 tickles their brain the correct way. 534 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,040 A lot of systems are written and why people write new systems 535 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,520 oftentimes is it's because like they're writing because this is 536 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,520 how my brain lurks like this is how the system makes sense to me 537 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,480 and maybe other people's brain work the same way because 538 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,560 there's billions of people whose brains work the same way. 539 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,560 So that always sounds to me like what they're what they're saying 540 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,000 is we don't need another system to play. 541 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:28,480 It's we don't need another system to buy. 542 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,440 And as soon as it starts coming from a product side, I would 543 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:36,000 immediately tune out because to me, I like games, I don't like 544 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,560 products. And because some games are 545 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,960 products is very different than products that happen to be games 546 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:42,720 in a way that I think of games and views. 547 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,720 So that that that puts me in such a deep rage every time I 548 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,480 hear anyone say, oh, we don't need another system. 549 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,400 We don't need another book then we don't need another video 550 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:50,520 game. Then we don't need another 551 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,360 anything then. Is that how creativity works 552 00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:54,120 like? I hear you, but but but I do 553 00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:56,640 think that and again, I I don't maybe I'm misparaphrasing it. 554 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,960 I have to go back and re listen to this very early episode, 555 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,000 which we were Chris Pickett and I who do why we roll our our 556 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,320 podcast about indie game design. We're like amazed, you know, 557 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,120 Mark was super nice and emailed us right back. 558 00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:08,080 Yeah, I'll be on your show. I was like, oh, this guy doesn't 559 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,400 know who we are. He's made a bunch of games. 560 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,760 You know Avatar just made $1,000,000 or something on 561 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,280 Kickstarter. No one plays it, you know, but. 562 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:16,840 Sure. But but it's PBTA, right. 563 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,400 And his whole thing is he likes PBTA. 564 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:19,480 OK. So it was really a conversation 565 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,280 about PBTA as a system and we talked about all kinds of, but 566 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,600 to be to steal man, what I remember that conversation, I 567 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,240 mean, he was just being generous on that product business side. 568 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,320 He wasn't saying no one should do XY and Z. 569 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,440 It was like, look, if you're going to run a small business 570 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,360 and you're trying to make money, how are you competing? 571 00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:38,040 And I do kind of feel that way because, you know, it's much 572 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,720 easier now for me to say, look, this is how the game works. 573 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,760 And it either works within, you know, the grid system or if I 574 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,360 were to write something for, you know, let's say it was like 575 00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:48,480 Daggerhart or something, right? I would be able to speak to 576 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,760 other people who can translate that in their heads to the play 577 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,720 experience and kind of quickly walk through, OK, that sounds 578 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:53,800 fun. Let me let me try that. 579 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,400 And I think it's a little harder with a totally unknown system to 580 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,040 make a product. And to your point, that should 581 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,520 not be the goal. And that's not usually how I, I 582 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,920 don't sit down to make products. I sit down to tell stories to, 583 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,600 to make games. But there is the point where it 584 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,520 does tip over. There's like a horizon. 585 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:11,560 And I think of that kind of paradox, right? 586 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,920 It's a paradox of like, you want to be a pure artist, either 587 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,160 drawing or writing or whatever. And games are a way to do that 588 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,640 art and with other people. And it's really rad because it's 589 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,280 a community that's it's all about kind of indie home brewed 590 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:24,800 stuff. And and there is a human 591 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,200 connection even with solo games, I would argue people like then 592 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,760 get together and read their solo game journals and stuff much 593 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:33,960 more than, you know, maybe video games are much more directed at 594 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,600 sort of like, you know, you the creator are not interacting with 595 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,680 people necessarily that much. I mean, again, I know they play 596 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,600 test stuff, whatever. But for RPGs, you're definitely 597 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,200 with other people as an artist. But if you want to do it 598 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,280 professionally at any level, I mean even a hobby level and just 599 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,120 not lose money, you do have to kind of consider those things. 600 00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:52,800 So I think I, I, I agree with you that like, yeah, we have 601 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,920 room for any nervous systems. There's 8 billion people on 602 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:56,240 earth. There's going to be plenty of 603 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,080 innovation. I don't think by any means. 604 00:26:58,160 --> 00:26:59,720 And we we can get into this. We're talking for the show. 605 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,920 Like, is the OSR over? Like, I don't really feel 606 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,600 strongly or care that much. But even if it is like they'll 607 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,440 be a new thing, you know, they'll always be innovation. 608 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,760 I, like I said, I probably won't be the great system forever and 609 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:10,920 ever. I'll probably do it at least for 610 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:12,640 a few more years because we have a bunch of ideas. 611 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,000 We have a backlog of cool games we think are fun that we're 612 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,480 trying to make better and better. 613 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,520 And I do think from a product standpoint, it is helpful to 614 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,280 say, OK, they're they're in a family, they're interoperable, 615 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:23,200 right? So if you've played one, you're 616 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,360 going to be able to quickly learn the others and it kind of 617 00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:28,800 quickly give those bullet points like here's how it's sort of 618 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:30,760 different from other things, sort of the same. 619 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,640 So you you can tell, you know, the 8020 really you want 80% 620 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,960 familiarity, but 20% has to be new or else, yeah, just some 621 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,280 people might say, well, I'm going to buy another shadow dark 622 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,520 thing or whatever, right. And we want to say, no, no, no 623 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:43,440 play. Try dots with Cobb. 624 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:44,840 It's really fun. You know, it's really different, 625 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,880 but it's, it's super easy. So I, I, again, I, I don't want 626 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,080 to, I just don't want to speak for someone who, who's not here, 627 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:51,840 right? Because I certainly agree with 628 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,280 you. I don't feel like there needs to 629 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,160 be any gatekeeping in terms of what is the system. 630 00:27:56,360 --> 00:27:58,560 But if you ask me business advice, I might say, OK, let's 631 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,160 think about it and, and how much you want to do a new system and 632 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,080 how much you think that is what people are going to buy. 633 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,160 And for some games, especially for Zenes and for story games 634 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,280 like that, energy is 100% there. You know, it's all novelty, but 635 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,160 I think for big adventure games, bigger books and campaignable 636 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,600 adventure games, I do think people when they're spending 50 637 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,400 bucks on a book, they might think, you know, how, how much 638 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,640 do I need to learn a new system versus, oh, I'm going to get 639 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,680 this quickly? And so it's a kind of gamble, I 640 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,680 think from a business perspective, which again, it's 641 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,640 not my main perspective. It's something I have to like, 642 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,800 keep in mind, so I don't, I don't lose all my my, my money 643 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,200 basically. Yeah, you know, I also feel to a 644 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,040 point without without and again granting more the the there's a 645 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,440 community in TSRP GS and just like this, this baggage mindset 646 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:46,240 that I think as a community, which can never get this 647 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,360 community all move in the same direction really needs to be 648 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,440 shocked. It's because someone said this 649 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,560 the other day about and I of course, I rented because that's 650 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,640 what I do, but no one no one made me anything else where 651 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,080 people just do 1 of it, right. There's no one out there that 652 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,240 plays one card game forever. There's no one out there that 653 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,080 plays one board game forever. But this mindset, this like 654 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,800 self-imposed mindset that honestly, I really think that 655 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,320 don't even get me started on like the ways that 5E has like 656 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,200 destroyed TTRP GS in a lot of ways. 657 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,320 But a lot of it comes from that baggage where their business 658 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,680 model has been to tell everyone you only need this one game. 659 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,520 So it becomes stuck in people's brains forever that you only 660 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,080 need this one game. But again, no one plays one 661 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:25,760 board game. No one plays one card game. 662 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,040 No one plays one drinking game in college. 663 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,360 Like no one's just like, I got King's Cup and I'm done. 664 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,360 You know what I mean? Like, I never needed, I never 665 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:33,720 need to play beer. Paul, what is this? 666 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,120 So as a product, I completely understand where you're coming 667 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,440 from, but I do think part of that, like from a business 668 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,520 perspective, yes, you have to make it a game that people want 669 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,000 to play and make it approachable and make it reasonable. 670 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,600 But I do think as like a community, like I really wish 671 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,960 people's mindset would switch away from I need the easiest 672 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:51,960 thing that makes my brain work and blah, blah, blah, and this 673 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,680 and that and, and be more open to it. 674 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,320 And again, I do think that that is like a bit of brainwashing 675 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,000 bit of propaganda that's put out there that you only need one, so 676 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,520 stick with one, but that, you know, that's neither here nor 677 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:04,840 there. And that's, that's not something 678 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:06,680 that you need to worry about Indesign. 679 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,480 But I understand from a business side that is something that 680 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,200 exists and it's something that you have to think of when you're 681 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:11,800 when you're making a product. Because still Fleet's not a 682 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,680 Zine. It's a bunch of books, you know, 683 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,240 and they're hard back and they cost money. 684 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,120 So like it's, it's reasonable to to have to have those things on 685 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:19,480 your plate once you get to that point. 686 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,720 Well, it definitely and it and and look at what we're competing 687 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,320 with when we do that versus if we were making, let's say, zines 688 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,960 or printed home small sort of board game like experiences, you 689 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,120 know, solo duet games or even party games, but they have an 690 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,560 RPG component. So again, sort of store novel 691 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,720 story games that are, are cheaper to make and cheaper to 692 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,920 buy Arc arc rad and I so again, I'm a big fan of plus one XP and 693 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:42,800 I think they put out interesting stuff in that world. 694 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,120 And there's plenty of other folks out there, you know, 695 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,480 working in that vein. You know, again, I'm, I'm in my 696 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,240 40s, man. I grew up playing, you know, D&D 697 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:55,240 and vampire traveler and, you know, I had the big books and I 698 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,160 wanted to make and I, I play campaigns. 699 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:58,840 So I was playing campaigns and still Fleet before it had a 700 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,400 name, you know, before the grid system. 701 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,800 And I wanted to consolidate that into a big book to start. 702 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:06,520 And I was very insistent. Let's do a big book. 703 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,640 We did actually do a quick start first, which is softback. 704 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,080 And after that we did a bunch of softback. 705 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:11,440 They're all softbacks are in the main book. 706 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,200 But yeah, it's a big hardback book and they're expensive to 707 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,520 make. And so at that point, who with 708 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,200 whom are we competing? But we're not really competing 709 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,480 with Azine, with that product. You know, it's not apples to 710 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,000 apples if someone's at a store and again, I buy both. 711 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,840 So I'm, I'm you know, please, if you can't support all these 712 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:28,920 people, you know, I'm not I I certainly don't want to limit 713 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,480 anyone, but but in terms of big adventure games, it is like 714 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,160 we're competing with other people who are like, I don't 715 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,160 know, my whole group wants to switch to blank or like and, and 716 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:37,520 and more of that campaign experience. 717 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,480 So I definitely agree. It's not that anyone's only 718 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:40,440 playing one thing in their lives. 719 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,240 I just think of the way I collect and the and the shelfie 720 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,440 thing on Reddit right now. Everyone collects a lot of 721 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,000 games. I don't think they're all played 722 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,880 equally. I think let's again just say 723 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,000 because it's a thing that business people say like 80 724 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,440 twenty, 80% of them are red but not played. 725 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,240 I think might be played at most once, right, But probably not 726 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,960 even 20% of them are played a lot and those might be 727 00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:03,600 principally 5E now. Maybe like, you know, you get 728 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,840 your mother ships and hopefully, you know, still feeds, inspires 729 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,200 and stuff. And then there's also a lot of 730 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,520 legacy games like Warhammer Fantasy where like I don't know 731 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,200 anyone who's played it, but it I see it whenever I go to smaller 732 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,080 cons, all the the older heads have all of those hardback books 733 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,120 that are expensive and they're nice books and it's just like 734 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,520 this must be a thing that they're elf quest, right, That 735 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,640 had like a a billion hardback book curbs. 736 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,200 So I think that when you have a product line and you have 737 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,280 hardbacks and you have just like box sets, you know, SKUs that 738 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,760 cost like, like products that cost more money to make, you do 739 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,360 have to just consider like, why should someone not just buy like 740 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,960 one thing, but buy like 3 things for the system? 741 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,920 And I think at that point you do have to sort of say, yeah, 742 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:45,840 there's, they're all fun to read, but ours is going to be 743 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:47,200 the most fun to play. And here's why. 744 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,160 And again, like maybe define that experience pretty 745 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:50,760 specifically. Like with that's we tried to be 746 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,080 really real with people and like, and we've seen it. 747 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,360 Like Chris and I have played games with people who literally 748 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,600 thought they were sitting down to play Shadow Dark and then 749 00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,120 they were pleasantly surprised. They're like, wow, that was 750 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:00,960 really fun and red, but they literally were just confused. 751 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:02,080 They were like, I don't even know what this is. 752 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,640 It just looked like you're, you know, it's in that same vein and 753 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,360 or they thought it was a zombie game, but again, using like a 5 754 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,480 E kind of engine and they were pleasantly surprised. 755 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,600 They liked the grid system and they said it was really fun. 756 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,240 I'm glad I learned that. So we've we've had to really 757 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,840 like as a we still are new, right, The grid system is new. 758 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,680 I don't know for sure if it will be a thing that people keep 759 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:22,440 going with. I hope so. 760 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,920 We're going to start this jam and see what people do, but 761 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,320 we've had to kind of, you know, do that like one-on-one 762 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,920 education with players and be like, why don't you try it for a 763 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:31,920 couple hours, see if you like it. 764 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:33,880 And if you know, you don't have to buy a big book. 765 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:35,000 You can just play a game for free. 766 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,640 And we, you know, we play games on Discord every week on our 767 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:39,880 server. If with that idea in mind that 768 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,160 like, hey, you don't have to buy anything. 769 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,760 You just come up, come and play and we'll walk you through it. 770 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:46,560 There's free quick starts, you know, there's pregens. 771 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,920 So I definitely don't think people should feel limited. 772 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,600 But I will say again for a business perspective, if you're 773 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,840 going to commit to even one big ass hardback, much less like a 774 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,440 hardback and in our case like a couple soft backs, it adds up 775 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,760 pretty quickly. And so it is just like a 776 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,640 different, it becomes a small business right away, which is 777 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,280 not good or bad. And it used to be, I think 778 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:07,520 easier. And we live now. 779 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,520 And hey, like we're in World War Three, maybe, you know, it's 780 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,920 like it's, it's getting worse. Every day, who knows? 781 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,320 I'm going to get nuclear fallout, you know? 782 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:16,480 No, no. I. 783 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:18,719 Hear. You, I hear you coming from 784 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,639 yeah, no, it's and, and I have the, the, the, I guess benefit 785 00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:25,440 of, of being on a podcast where I can pick what I want and, and 786 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:26,960 it's not a business and all this other stuff. 787 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,600 So like I, I'm on a bit of my own, you know, high horse that I 788 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,040 might need to step down from every now and then, But it's it 789 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,520 in a, in a perfect world, we wouldn't need to worry about the 790 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,320 business side of it and the product side of it. 791 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,679 And like the fact that paper is not going to be super expensive 792 00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:43,560 because meals are starting to get behind again and all that 793 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:45,000 kind of stuff. But you know, that is 794 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,360 unfortunately the reality we live in. 795 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,639 And for, for people that run businesses, it's, it's, you 796 00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:51,239 know, it's, you know, things that have to be brought into the 797 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,159 conversation above and beyond, like the artistic aspect, but 798 00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:56,080 even artists sell art. So it's, you know, it's a thing 799 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,800 that always has to be done. But winding it back like again, 800 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,240 me stepping off the high horse and everything stepping down 801 00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:04,240 from the, from the soapbox, the system itself too. 802 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,760 So for me when I look at the grid system I see three things 803 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:07,800 and tell me if I'm completely wrong. 804 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,640 What I see is dice mechanic we've already talked about which 805 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:16,480 is get higher than a D6 and then it's your stat array because you 806 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,480 have it's 5 stats. I believe in Still Fleet, but 807 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,640 you have an array. So when you were designing Still 808 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,080 Fleet, I'm going to pull that up too. 809 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,600 Was there an inspiration? Because we've already talked 810 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,240 about the PPTA inspiration with the sixes and and the binary and 811 00:35:30,240 --> 00:35:31,680 stuff. Was there an inspiration to go 812 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:36,480 with something like the array? Because when I've seen dice 813 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,360 assigned to arrays, I've seen like, have you, I don't know if 814 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,760 you've read like Ryutama or like Red Giant or anything like that, 815 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:47,160 systems that assigned different dice to different like stats or 816 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:48,480 different actions and things like that. 817 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,040 Where does that something that just like popped up or were you 818 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,720 inspired in some way from, from a previous system or anything? 819 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,320 No, I have found that that there are other designers who use this 820 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,240 core mechanic of your scores are different dice types, but I did 821 00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:03,760 not know that at the time at all. 822 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:08,280 So this was a product of really my two friends I grew up playing 823 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,960 these games with who are really amazing. 824 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,600 And neither are involved at all, as far as I know, with any 825 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,920 gaming. But my friends Patrick and Paul, 826 00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:18,760 I was just like emailing a lot of we all, we'd all moved away. 827 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:20,360 So none of us were in New York City anymore. 828 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,400 And it was the first time in in our adult lives, you know, we 829 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,000 weren't like hanging out together in Brooklyn. 830 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,080 And we're like, they're getting married and having kids and I'm 831 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,440 in Boston and doing being academic. 832 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,320 And I really, I wanted to, you know, create this game. 833 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,400 And early on, I mean, we were talking about these different 834 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,040 systems and we really went deeply through just back and 835 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,760 forth kind of again, old blog style, long e-mail threads about 836 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,560 like things we liked it didn't like about D&D, different kinds 837 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,560 of systems that aren't D&D or PBTAPBTA Numenera. 838 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,840 And ultimately it was probably just my experience trying to GM 839 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,440 Numenera and feeling very frustrated, not with Monty 840 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,320 Cook's amazing writing in the art, but like this system. 841 00:36:58,320 --> 00:36:59,920 It just was like, I don't like fuck this. 842 00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:02,720 Like I remember just late one night writing the what became 843 00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:05,120 the grid system, sending it to my friends, you know, emailing 844 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,400 it to the then players and just saying, I think this is could be 845 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,720 something like, what if we just rolled an individual dice when 846 00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:13,680 we call for a check, you know? And it worked really well. 847 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:15,720 I mean, it worked from that first play test on. 848 00:37:15,720 --> 00:37:16,880 It was just like, yeah, this is it. 849 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:18,200 Like, let's focus on this. Now. 850 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,880 To your point, other people, I've not actually read this. 851 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,320 I know what Reutam is. I think Chris is a big fan. 852 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,000 I don't speak for them, but, but I know there's other designers 853 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:29,560 who've done that. It is a cool way to do it. 854 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,160 It's not the only way. I do think to me, it's a very 855 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,360 satisfying range. That's always, it always kind of 856 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:36,760 makes sense. You know, if you have AD 12, 857 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:38,400 you're pretty good at something that's hard to do. 858 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:40,960 You know, if you have AD 6, you're a quote UN quote average 859 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,200 at it. And it allows you to make those 860 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,000 gambling choices around burning grit and whether you'll be 861 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:47,080 exhausted and you're out of grit. 862 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,360 You can't do that anymore and also use your cool powers. 863 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,800 It allows you as the player to have that agency and to say, you 864 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,000 know, fuck it, I'm, you know, Leroy Jenkins, I'm going to burn 865 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,040 9 grit and roll whatever dice I have and add 9 and just hope I 866 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,520 don't get a 1, you know? And it allows you as AGM to 867 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,960 really quickly say, OK, this is a little harder than average. 868 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,960 You got to get A7 or better instead of a six and all the 869 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,920 player, oh, or even like, hey, that's kind of impossible, but 870 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,320 I'll let you try like you got to get like a nine or better, you 871 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,200 know. So again, it's very fast 872 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,400 compared to say AD and D and to me, again, for the as we 873 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,600 discussed, it's a little quicker than a PBTA to resolve those 874 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,960 kind of cinematic epic moments, which was more how I was GM ING 875 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:26,000 right. And it's it's again, not the 876 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,280 only way to GM, but it but it was it was born out of like, you 877 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,840 know, kind of like having just watched like the expanse or 878 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:33,920 whatever had just started coming out of the TV show. 879 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:35,800 And it's like, Oh yeah, this is cool. 880 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,720 What how can we make this? But out of the parts of what? 881 00:38:39,720 --> 00:38:41,800 What now we'd call the OSR, right? 882 00:38:43,720 --> 00:38:46,080 This is, I'm a systems guy. I love systems and I love and 883 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:47,920 someone does something unique with systems and, and this is 884 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,000 one of things I like about the grid system specifically is that 885 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,720 you have this like as a standard core difficulty, you have 6 as 886 00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:56,640 your number, you have these array of dice. 887 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,840 So people like you said, it's really easy. 888 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,680 It's more intuitive than like, for example, one of the things 889 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,960 that I find a lot of people that get away from D&D don't like 890 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,200 about D&D when they look back, is that you roll to get a stat 891 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,480 that gives you a different number, that gives you a 892 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,360 modifier that gives you like a number that then Adm has to give 893 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:12,880 you like, there's all this stuff. 894 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:14,320 You know, that's why roll under is better. 895 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,960 You can just like, you know, roll to 1 number. 896 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,080 So I really like that you have this basically target number and 897 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,160 then you're just looking at the math, like if you have AD 4 and 898 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,360 you need a the six, you can't do it. 899 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,240 Like you just can't do it. And if you have AD 12, you're 900 00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:28,920 probably very good at it. And I, I really like that. 901 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,920 I think it's incredibly clever. I think it's incredibly simple. 902 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,480 And those to me are the best mechanics where you just go, 903 00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:37,320 this makes sense. Just looking at it, you go, Oh 904 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,480 yeah, I have a 12, I need to hit a six. 905 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,600 And, and so I really like that. And I and I, we talked about 906 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,720 this before the show, but the design of the graphics you did 907 00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:48,160 in still fleet or that were done in still fleet with the blown 908 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:49,640 out dice to give you the number of options. 909 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,280 That makes my brain so happy to just look at it and go, yes, 910 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,960 this is so nice. Like when you look at like AD 911 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,320 the D8 and you see 3 red triangles, you're like, yes, 912 00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:02,120 that makes so much sense. Like that's how the math works. 913 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,480 I love it. But then you do have, you do 914 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,160 have an array of, of difficulties. 915 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,160 You have easy, standard, difficult, very difficult, 916 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:10,840 impossible. How often do you find yourself 917 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,960 like deciding like we're not just going to owe sixes across 918 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,080 the board? Because the declared difficulty 919 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,520 is one of the things that I'm not as big a fan of in like D&D 920 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,240 where the GM has to be like, well, is it a 13 is a 14? 921 00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:22,640 If you get a 12, what does that mean? 922 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:24,120 How often do you really find yourself? 923 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,840 Deviating from the standard versus letting those different 924 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,600 dice numbers, you know, 468 kind of pick, you know, the success 925 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,280 or failure. Yeah, I hear you. 926 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,560 I mean, I, I hated personally when I was doing the 20 games 927 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:41,160 more and, and 5E when it's like, oh, you need to get an 11 and 928 00:40:41,240 --> 00:40:43,160 yeah, what's the difference between 11 and a 12? 929 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,880 I mean, you know, it's, it becomes pointless if you're 930 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:47,400 like, oh, well, then just do steps of five. 931 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:48,800 But then it's like, well, why do I have AD 20? 932 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,400 It the whole thing becomes a push and pull with math that I 933 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,200 found is just always inherently unsatisfying and goes nowhere 934 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:56,920 with like the higher level you get. 935 00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,640 It still feels just as confusing it there's never a point in the 936 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,120 sort of campaign arc when it, it like makes sense. 937 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,040 So for me, that was never a fan, even when, you know, again, from 938 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,360 the earliest days, I played second edition Dutch the Dragons 939 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,000 with my friends and loved it because I love role-playing, but 940 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,000 I hated as I was always the GM, like it was the forever GM, 941 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:14,800 quote UN quote setting those difficulties. 942 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:16,800 So for us, it's like you're trying to be the six. 943 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,520 It's pretty intuitive, I would say to say, well, I kind of want 944 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:22,600 to make them roll something. You know, there's a moment of 945 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,120 tension and they're kind of unsure what you do. 946 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:26,960 Let's let's call for a roll, but make it a five. 947 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,400 So the only thing that's going to matter is if everyone really 948 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,480 screws up, you know, and it's really much more tension 949 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,280 building to call for a 7, you know, OK, well, it's pretty much 950 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,160 similar to a six, but you want to emphasize to the players that 951 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,000 this is important and difficult. And then what matters more is if 952 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:43,560 they're trying to do something that just doesn't really make 953 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,120 sense and then you're sort of punishing them with like, all 954 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:46,080 right, well, it's got to be a nine. 955 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,400 You know, at that point I just started doing threes 912. 956 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,000 I don't think I've ever called for anything beyond that. 957 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,240 It's pretty much 567912 and almost always 6. 958 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,080 I to give an example, one of the writers who wrote a chapter for 959 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,760 dots Bacab for the setting guide about abandoned Lithuania, the 960 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,880 last Pagan stronghold fighting off these big Christian 961 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:08,160 colonialist basically from Germany is a writers in Greece 962 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,560 called Constantine Pradius. He writes video game stuff and 963 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,040 and he wrote a cool game using grid system and pitched it to 964 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:13,760 us. It's a Zine. 965 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,760 It's kind of a annihilation, you know, roadside picnic stalker 966 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,360 kind of zone fiction book. So aliens have come and left and 967 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,120 they've screwed up a bunch of places on Earth and you want to 968 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,720 break into the zone and steal alien tech, but it's dangerous. 969 00:42:25,720 --> 00:42:27,040 The government is just cording it off. 970 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,080 So you're a delver. You're kind of a normal person. 971 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:30,400 You're kind of like a parkour expert. 972 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,440 Maybe you have a YouTube channel about climbing, you know, but 973 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,200 you're like a normal guy. Maybe you have a flare gun or 974 00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,200 even a pistol, but you're not like a space marine. 975 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:39,840 And it's a really cool game. And we're going to print it in a 976 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,480 couple months. And, you know, recently I was 977 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,280 playing one where he has all these set alien biopes inside 978 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,440 the structures. And 1 is very windy, so it's 979 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,480 sort of opened out of this alien atmosphere and there's this 980 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,240 horrible orange rusty wind. And it's something that's 981 00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:56,200 recurrent and it's meant to be a threat where whenever the 982 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,240 players do anything kind of dangerous, they have to also 983 00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:00,880 roll to see if the wind like throws them off a Cliff 984 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,480 basically. And that was fun to play with 985 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,120 the difficulties and really and have there's like a wind meter 986 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,280 and it can change. So IRL I just had every 30 987 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,160 minutes I was like, let's see what the wind, what you know, 988 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:11,280 what direction the wind is going. 989 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,280 And it felt like that OSR kind of a randomization of the 990 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,240 environment that was very, very simple. 991 00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:18,280 And all it was really doing was changing the difficulty of a 992 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,560 move check slightly, but it made a it made a lot of tension for 993 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,480 the players to decide, do we want to keep exploring? 994 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,800 Can we drag back the stuff we found in this tent? 995 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:28,440 Am I about to fall off a building? 996 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:32,560 You know, so I think it's nothing new. 997 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,280 It's just modeling the same thing if you could do with D&D, 998 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,680 but trying to simplify it down much more quickly. 999 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:39,920 And I would say it maintains the adventure. 1000 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,400 Some will they won't they cinematic moment that that that 1001 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,400 we like in terms of traditional adventure game jamming, but it 1002 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,000 simplifies it to generally it's a six, but yes, you can go up or 1003 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,520 down by 1 and the players will sort of react and they will 1004 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,040 think and and they will burn grit differently depending on 1005 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,200 it. So it it just is that like 1006 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,200 unconscious, like it shouldn't be a thing that wastes a lot of 1007 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:01,520 time. It shouldn't get in the way that 1008 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:02,600 I should never get in the way. Right. 1009 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,400 But it does let players know as a signal about the environment. 1010 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,480 And that's I think why we mechanicalize things at all. 1011 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,880 Otherwise we could just have purely improv conversation 1012 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:12,960 games. And again, some people do that. 1013 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:17,640 But if you want to roll dice, we like to make them maybe not as 1014 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,080 minimal as possible. I don't know that I'm like 1015 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:20,640 obsessed with we. That's why we don't say the 1016 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:22,800 system is rules light, although I kind of think it is. 1017 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:27,000 But I think we're more obsessed with like systems that really 1018 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,840 help you tell good stories. So that's why I focus more on 1019 00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,600 like player empowering or, you know, like narrative structures 1020 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:34,560 and less on like lightness per SE. 1021 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,560 It is pretty light, but. Yeah, well, one thing I noticed 1022 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,760 about the numbers and maybe this is wasn't the intent, but I 1023 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:43,640 really like is that 6 is your standard and then most of the 1024 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,840 rest of them are one more than like one of the other dice. 1025 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:51,120 So like easy is still like one more than your D4 and difficult 1026 00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,600 to steal one more than your D6 and very difficult to steal one 1027 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,520 more than your D 8. So I didn't know if that was an 1028 00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,120 intent where you're just like, well, difficult is a is now a 9. 1029 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,240 So like if you only have the eights now it's kind of getting 1030 00:45:02,240 --> 00:45:04,200 beyond without burning grit and things like that. 1031 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,000 Like I really like that. And if it wasn't intentional, 1032 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,560 good fucking job because it worked out great to be like, 1033 00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,000 yeah, like it's a nine now. So that someone who might have 1034 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,600 succeeded last time, the D8 goes, fuck, now I got what's my 1035 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:15,800 grip pool at? What's this? 1036 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:20,360 It creates these different complications and interactions 1037 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,080 with the system in a fun way that I found interesting. 1038 00:45:23,720 --> 00:45:26,160 Yeah, I mean, it's I, I, I like to call it medium crunch, but 1039 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:28,560 really to me, it's almost like fake crunch because the math is 1040 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,600 either no math or very, very simple math. 1041 00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,440 You're adding or subtracting one or three generally. 1042 00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:36,600 So it's kind of like, OK, I can do that, you know, I can handle 1043 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:42,360 D 6 ± 1 or +3, you know? And what it does is, I mean, to 1044 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,040 answer your question, no, I didn't like a lot of this was 1045 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,040 emergent because we're playing around with small numbers. 1046 00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,080 And so there's kind of a law of small numbers doing interesting, 1047 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,480 beautiful things mathematically. I'm not a mathematician, but you 1048 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:54,920 can kind of look it up. It's like these numbers will 1049 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,280 have natural like residences because they're smaller. 1050 00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,520 When you get into D&D level, when you're in your elevens and 1051 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:03,080 your fifteens, it becomes harder to have moments that players 1052 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,120 care about specific to the number. 1053 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:06,680 They do care about the outcome of the action. 1054 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:08,960 You can tell good stories, obviously, but they don't care 1055 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:10,400 if it's 11 or 12. They just want to know if they 1056 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,920 hit with this system, it's small enough where you get that 1057 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:14,960 gambling mentality where they're like, oh, yeah, I'm going to 1058 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:16,720 burn grid. Oh no, I'm going to, I'm going 1059 00:46:16,720 --> 00:46:17,840 to, you know, free ball or whatever. 1060 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:19,240 I'm not going to roll and you know, and burn anything. 1061 00:46:19,240 --> 00:46:20,680 I'm just going to see what I get. 1062 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,200 And because the system always, you know, in any version, 1063 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,360 there's some rule about like if someone helps you to plus one. 1064 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:27,840 And usually I do it as everyone who helps you get you a + 1. 1065 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,440 So it depends on the what you're trying to do, if that could be 1066 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,560 possible. But if it's, you know, 1067 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,360 everyone's trying to boost you up over a ledge or everyone's 1068 00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,760 trying to help you calm down a situation and they're all being 1069 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:40,440 reasonable and they're all aligned, then you're going to 1070 00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,280 roll and add those small bonuses and they actually start to 1071 00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:44,880 matter to your point. Let's save AD 6 and you're 1072 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,840 trying to hit a 7. You could do it with just one 1073 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,000 person really helping you. It's it's still unlikely, but 1074 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,680 it's possible. And that again, feels kind of 1075 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:54,240 Fair. It's it's like a simple way to 1076 00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:57,480 model reality without getting too into like, you know, again, 1077 00:46:57,600 --> 00:46:58,680 the goal isn't like strict realism. 1078 00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,360 It's just like big cinematic moments that the players get to 1079 00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:04,600 embrace and they're they're telling the story. 1080 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,040 They know what it means to roll. So it's not sort of it's 1081 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,240 transparent in that sense. I do like transparent jamming 1082 00:47:09,240 --> 00:47:11,040 with the numbers. So it's never behind a screen. 1083 00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,320 It's just, yeah, that's the number you either rolled or you 1084 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,800 didn't, you know? And again, I, I love that that 1085 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:17,920 is something that emerged from the play testing and from the 1086 00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,360 developing and from everything you weren't like trying to hit, 1087 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,520 like you didn't go into the gist preconceived. 1088 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:24,680 I must have this. So let me figure out how it 1089 00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:25,880 works. It just kind of like came from 1090 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:26,960 and I really, I really love that. 1091 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:29,320 Like I said to me, there's three parts of the grid system. 1092 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:30,400 We've already talked about two of them. 1093 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:32,520 One is, you know, the cordized mechanic. 1094 00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,920 The second part is the assigning those scores. 1095 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,760 And the last one to me that we've hit on a bunch, But to 1096 00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,160 talk a little bit more is the pools go. 1097 00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,400 I hate this when the stupid thing pops up and it doesn't go 1098 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:47,040 away. But so you have two pools in in 1099 00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:48,680 the grid system. That is your health pool and 1100 00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:50,480 your grit pool. We've talked about grit a lot, 1101 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:54,000 but when we talk about the health pool, it is a combination 1102 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,520 of two of your stats and in and and still fleet. 1103 00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,760 It is your combat and your movement. 1104 00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,320 To a lot of people, they're going to say hey, and those have 1105 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:04,760 nothing to do with health. Why are they your health? 1106 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:06,320 But like, why? So why? 1107 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:08,360 Why do you put those two together to create the pool? 1108 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,960 Is it just like 2 of the stats because it's the dice array? 1109 00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:13,440 Or was it just like the way it worked out? 1110 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,000 Like why? How did that pool become what it 1111 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,200 is first, specifically the health? 1112 00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:19,880 Pool. Yeah, that's a good question. 1113 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,120 We tried different versions to answer your question of of to 1114 00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:27,840 keep it simple, let's not add different EPI values like 1115 00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:29,960 modifiers and stuff. So it's like you have these five 1116 00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,000 dice, that's it. So how do we derive your grit? 1117 00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,760 For one, you start there and then also, OK, we're going to 1118 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,560 have traditional D&D style health, you know, hit points 1119 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:40,440 where where do we derive that? Right. 1120 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:43,560 Movement is supposed to represent your whole physique. 1121 00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:47,000 Anything you would do physically in three dimensions other than 1122 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,120 hurting someone and hurting someone is combat. 1123 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,080 And that's again kind of coming from Pbta, the differentiating 1124 00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:56,760 other aspects of your life from violence and violence being a 1125 00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:58,600 very intentional choice. That's almost more narrative, 1126 00:48:58,600 --> 00:48:59,600 right? If I'm going to try to kill 1127 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,520 someone in real life, like I'm a tiny, I'm small as a person. 1128 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,920 But killing someone nowadays, I mean, you know, modeling sci-fi 1129 00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:10,440 games, modern games, yes, now we have fantasy as well, but it's 1130 00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:12,480 really more about guns. It's going to buy a gun and 1131 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,320 shooting someone, which doesn't require a lot of strength. 1132 00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:17,720 It does require some level of aim, but you know, it's more 1133 00:49:17,720 --> 00:49:21,160 like an intention. I would argue so yeah, sure, you 1134 00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,760 can play the space Marine class, the still rider and still fleet 1135 00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,800 and they have D12 combat to start, meaning they are actually 1136 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,320 soldiers who were trained to fight and they're supposed to be 1137 00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,760 physically robust and they're wearing an ecstasy to powered, 1138 00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:36,120 you know, armor. But you know, you can also play 1139 00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,040 just some other class and decide you're very deadly for some 1140 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:40,920 reason and give yourself a high combat score. 1141 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:43,680 So to to tie them to help. I think it's just sort of the 1142 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:45,360 the, you know, convenient inverse. 1143 00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:48,200 It's like if you're probably obsessed with fighting, you're 1144 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,360 probably pretty good at survival in some way that I think, again, 1145 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,480 isn't necessarily about physical size. 1146 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,640 It's sort of tied to like mentality and paranoia. 1147 00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,120 So we're just we're, you know, OK. 1148 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:02,160 Yeah, if you, if you put your high dice into combat and 1149 00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:03,320 movement, you'll have more health. 1150 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:07,000 But that, you know, the inverse is you're going to have less 1151 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,360 grit than you would if you put those dice into the the mental 1152 00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:14,160 scores that give you grit. So it's just a really simple, I 1153 00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:16,120 would say that it does fall still under this Cartesian 1154 00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:19,320 dualism philosophy idea of like mind and body being separate, 1155 00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,760 which I don't love. But it is very, very convenient 1156 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,920 for game design because it does let you have different tropes. 1157 00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,720 It lets you have the small, unassuming person who's 1158 00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:30,360 actually, you know, a ninja like killer, right? 1159 00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:34,880 It lets you have hulking big types of characters who many 1160 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,280 players really want to play for whatever reason, you know, they 1161 00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:40,520 want that trope available. And it lets you have this sort 1162 00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,440 of mentalist. I I only do mental things that 1163 00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:45,960 lets you have the because we have charm as a score, which is 1164 00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:47,920 slightly different. I can get into philosophically 1165 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:49,720 that's different charisma, but you know, it's the same basic 1166 00:50:49,720 --> 00:50:51,000 idea, right? You're rolling charm when you're 1167 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:52,880 doing social things. You can have high charm. 1168 00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:54,200 I like to play high charm characters. 1169 00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:58,480 I think it's fun and you know that that lets you model the 1170 00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:02,200 whole traditional adventure system with just those 5 scores. 1171 00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:03,680 Other games do have other scores. 1172 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:04,680 They name the scores differently. 1173 00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:05,680 They use them a little differently. 1174 00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:09,160 But in still Fleet, yeah, we did start with sort of two physical, 1175 00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,440 three non physical scores and just break up health and grit 1176 00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:14,800 that way, if that makes sense. Yeah, no, absolutely. 1177 00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,240 And then the other half of the pool is grit, which I mean it is 1178 00:51:17,240 --> 00:51:19,520 grit, it is the grit system. It is a kind of where like 1179 00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,240 everything comes from. So like the final part of kind 1180 00:51:22,240 --> 00:51:24,000 of like again, the three aspects of the game. 1181 00:51:24,240 --> 00:51:27,440 So so where did what made you want to do grit? 1182 00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:31,280 How does 1 derive grit? And then how does grit work in 1183 00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:33,440 still fleet versus something like blister critters versus 1184 00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,240 something like Dance MC Cobb, like where since the grit system 1185 00:51:36,240 --> 00:51:38,840 like that feels like a through line obviously through 1186 00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:40,400 everything with the system. Why? 1187 00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,360 Where did it come from like and just talk about grit, I guess a 1188 00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:44,240 little bit. Yeah, sure, we we've joked that 1189 00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:46,880 we could do now this grit system Grand Tour, we might try to put 1190 00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:48,840 this together if anybody's interested in in playing with 1191 00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:50,920 us, you know a stream where we go from game to game and it's 1192 00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:53,960 the same characters, souls or whatever minds being downloaded, 1193 00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:55,920 different bodies and. And. 1194 00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,560 It's like a very stupid like what if idea, you know, like a 1195 00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:05,400 weird like, you know, somebody at Marvel got the permission to 1196 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,080 do 2 two issues of a comic version of our games. 1197 00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:10,200 I don't that's not the intention, but we just realized, 1198 00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:12,200 yeah, we have enough of them. We could see how that plays 1199 00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,480 almost as an experiment. But to answer your question, 1200 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,280 yeah, grits the through line. The idea is that it represents 1201 00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,640 your energy, your attention, your willpower. 1202 00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:22,640 And over the course of a day of doing not normal things, again, 1203 00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,800 I stress, but epic, heroic adventuresome things, you lose 1204 00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,720 that attention and energy and you know, whatever. 1205 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:30,920 Again, simulation. You want to imagine lactic acid 1206 00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:33,440 builds up or if you were a robot, you need to defragment 1207 00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,600 your drives, you know, whatever. And so you know, when you're out 1208 00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:38,040 of health, you die. When you're out of grit, you're 1209 00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,120 exhausted and still fleet. That just means you can't use 1210 00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,360 your powers because you really do need a lot of grit and still 1211 00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:43,480 fleet. It's more epic. 1212 00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,880 The other games are tend to be lower power and some of them 1213 00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:47,920 actually punish you for a minute. 1214 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:49,000 Running out of grit. You're rolling with 1215 00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,280 disadvantage. But in some ways it's easier to 1216 00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,200 not run out of grit because you don't have as many powers. 1217 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,400 They don't cost as much. They don't all cost grit at all. 1218 00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:56,800 Some, some are just passive bonuses. 1219 00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:59,040 So depending on what you're trying to model, again, the the 1220 00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:00,800 grit has been used very differently. 1221 00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,120 The three line that's the same in all of them is the boosting. 1222 00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,760 So plus 3 + 6 or +9 on a roll, that's huge. 1223 00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:10,440 And that means that you always are asking players to gamble and 1224 00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,160 to take it upon themselves to have agency over their sheet. 1225 00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:15,600 They're only really tracking one thing because health, again, 1226 00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:18,000 they may not get hit the whole adventure or whatever. 1227 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:19,840 Players are always going to know if they're dying or not. 1228 00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,120 But grit is going up and down much sort of faster. 1229 00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:25,680 And generally over the course of one session, it's just going 1230 00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:27,240 down. So there really is a curve 1231 00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:28,840 that's interesting where by the end of the set, you know, it's 1232 00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:30,560 to start, everyone's very conservative now I'm just going 1233 00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:32,760 to roll and see what happens. By the end of the session, 1234 00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,880 everyone's like, oh crap, I burn another three grit. 1235 00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:37,400 You know, I have to make this check. 1236 00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:40,280 I have to get away from, you know, the race that's attacking 1237 00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:41,920 me. And that's fun. 1238 00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:43,840 And it's fun to see. It's almost like I would say 1239 00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:46,280 comparable to a game that's using kind of panic and stress 1240 00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:50,360 to to boost the cycle of attention for players to by the 1241 00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:51,640 end, they're really freaking out. 1242 00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:54,800 But it's again simpler, I would say, and it and it models 1243 00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,200 anything. It doesn't require a unique 1244 00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:58,760 stress table. It's just players will stress 1245 00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:01,400 themselves out when you give them 22 grid and they realize 1246 00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:03,000 that certain their powers cost 6 grid. 1247 00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:05,880 Sometimes they want to burn 3. They're going to pretty quickly 1248 00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:09,240 run out and be like, Oh, shit, I need to like drink a beer, take 1249 00:54:09,240 --> 00:54:13,240 a nap, go to the doctor and that that will interact. 1250 00:54:13,240 --> 00:54:14,400 That will change the narrative, right. 1251 00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,040 So it it again, feels realistic quote, UN quote in the sense 1252 00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:20,960 that their epic characters will sometimes not have the energy to 1253 00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:23,600 do what they want all at once and they will have to do a 1254 00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,960 strategic retreat. And that, you know, for us has 1255 00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,120 worked really well to model different big moments, those 1256 00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:31,400 kind of empire strike back moments where the players kind 1257 00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,520 of they see that they're like, OK, GM, you got me for now. 1258 00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:37,600 And it's fun. It's fun to model those 1259 00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:40,200 conflicts in a way that feels for both sides, transparent, 1260 00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:44,320 easy to do the math right and really let's the players tell 1261 00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:46,680 the story in that sense. So that's the goal anyway. 1262 00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:49,840 I hope that made sense. And yeah, how you derive it, you 1263 00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:51,360 get it from. And so it's still fleet. 1264 00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:53,360 It's basically your reason, your will scores combined. 1265 00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,120 So it's similar to sort of combat and movement, but it's 1266 00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:58,800 your mental scores representing, you know, it's, it's a matter of 1267 00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:00,080 willpower. Ultimately, it's a matter of 1268 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,960 attention and willpower. So that is purposefully 1269 00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,200 asymmetric. And the classes then tend to be 1270 00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:08,560 classes where you're probably going to be fightier and have 1271 00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,040 less grit for your powers or you're going to use a lot of 1272 00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,360 powers. But you're quote UN quote 1273 00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:14,600 squishier in terms of health, right? 1274 00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:18,480 I know, and I mean, good thing to call the system because 1275 00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:19,760 you're right. Like I remember when we played 1276 00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:21,760 blister critters, that's exactly how it felt the whole time. 1277 00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:23,720 When you start, you're like, look at how much grit I have. 1278 00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,200 Like there's so much here, like I can do it all day. 1279 00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:27,960 And then when you're fighting the guy at the end, you're just 1280 00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,320 like, shit, man. I I really wish I wouldn't have 1281 00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:32,200 succeeded on that. Like jump over that whatever 1282 00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:34,840 role so that I could use it for my hit the guy in the face role 1283 00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:36,800 here. Like it, it, it really does. 1284 00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:41,520 And the thing too about number go down is whether like you're 1285 00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:45,800 actually in danger of it like disappearing or not, your brain 1286 00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:47,520 will tell you that you are, you know what I mean? 1287 00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,000 When you once you hit below like halfway, I think something 1288 00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:53,000 triggers in your brain where you go, Oh man, oh, now I need to 1289 00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:54,280 conserve it. Now I need to use it 1290 00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:56,520 importantly, when you were like really, you know, Wheeling to 1291 00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,720 dealing with it before. So it creates like an like you 1292 00:55:59,720 --> 00:56:02,080 said, like this urgency in the mechanic that is like really fun 1293 00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:06,520 and really interesting tied into these other like you said, like 1294 00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:08,480 pretty. I hate using the term simple, 1295 00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:12,200 more like clever and and approachable mechanics to the 1296 00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:16,640 game where again, pass out your scores, you roll a different 1297 00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:18,680 dice at a standard, you try to hit 6. 1298 00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,360 If it's something that you can just do, you just do, which 1299 00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:23,600 again, it's something that we, we didn't touch on a ton and a 1300 00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,560 lot of games say like, you know, every, I feel like every OSR has 1301 00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,520 this like this thing where it's just like if a normal person 1302 00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:31,080 could just do it, then you just do it. 1303 00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:33,480 But like people like when they see dice in front of them, they 1304 00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:34,560 want to roll the dice or whatever. 1305 00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:38,280 So it makes a little bit different, but but I really like 1306 00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,040 and like I said, those seems those are the three aspect of of 1307 00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:45,560 the the grid system and each one is really clever, really unique 1308 00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:50,520 and really like ties in well to everything else. 1309 00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:52,320 It's going like it's it's a great system. 1310 00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,200 Like when again, when we play blister critters, it was so much 1311 00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:58,760 fun, not only because the system is fun, but also Tonys art is 1312 00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:00,960 incredible and and jamming it is really fun and you're playing 1313 00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:02,640 fun like cartooning creatures or whatever. 1314 00:57:03,720 --> 00:57:06,280 But even within that, like you can see the differences in the 1315 00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:08,840 way the system can be used. Because if you hold up, I think 1316 00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:10,680 we said this before, if you hold up stove fleet, you hold up 1317 00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:12,240 blister critters and you hold up dance MC Cobb. 1318 00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:15,760 They're not even in any way, shape or form, like really tied 1319 00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:18,000 together at all. When you go from like, like you 1320 00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:21,000 said, like Space marine and Severance versus like literally 1321 00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:24,600 like Saturday morning cartoons versus just like medieval, like 1322 00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:28,480 extremely dark game, like the fact that they can all be used 1323 00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:32,800 in similar systems to tell this narrative forward stories. 1324 00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:36,800 It shows that the system not only is clever, but it's also 1325 00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:39,240 approachable and, and variable in different things. 1326 00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:41,400 And that's part of why you're running the game jam, I assume, 1327 00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:44,080 is to to really pull in people that are using in different 1328 00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:46,080 narrative ways. Yeah, exactly. 1329 00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,040 And I think to celebrate the fact that we've had these 1330 00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:51,800 conversations as a team across the people who've made, you 1331 00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:55,080 know, these games, but also with our players. 1332 00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:57,680 And a lot of our players are GMs themselves and have good ideas. 1333 00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:01,680 And you know, I think it is, again, there are, there is that 1334 00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:04,080 feeling because of fighting in the OGL, which you hit upon and 1335 00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:07,840 they did to some degree the right thing, right, of opening 1336 00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:10,280 up the OGL forever. But it's, it was after a whole 1337 00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:13,680 kerfuffle around they'd stoked all these community creators to 1338 00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:16,000 use their license and then they wanted to take it away or, you 1339 00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:17,800 know, so it's it's kind of craziness. 1340 00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:20,840 And I think good game design now should sort of embrace the idea 1341 00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:22,560 that like, look, you can't patent these mechanics. 1342 00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:24,480 And what would that even mean? And it, you know, is that in the 1343 00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:26,440 spirit of the thing, but you also just can't patent them. 1344 00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:28,120 So you can copyright your own book. 1345 00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:30,960 But if you have a good idea, somebody could just take it and 1346 00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:32,880 that's a good thing. That means that was a good idea. 1347 00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:36,480 And how do you have conversations to kind of see if 1348 00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:39,040 someone can do it better or do it better in a certain context? 1349 00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:42,600 Because I will say, for example, I love blister critters is one 1350 00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:44,560 of my favorite games. I was never going to make a 1351 00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:47,240 cartoon animal apocalypse game. I mean, it just was never going 1352 00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:48,840 to happen. I love water ship down. 1353 00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:51,480 I've played mouse writer, you know, it just it wasn't 1354 00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:54,280 something on my To Do List. So Tony wrote it and it was 1355 00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:56,080 like, all right, well, now this is great. 1356 00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,280 We have to do this, but it's also great because I wasn't 1357 00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:00,960 going to. So I think to some degree having 1358 00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:02,640 game jam is about all of the cool ideas. 1359 00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:04,280 Like you said, there's 8 billion people, there's hundreds of 1360 00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:05,920 ideas. I don't have time to do them 1361 00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:07,400 all. I mean, we try to do 1 big game 1362 00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:10,880 a year and some scenes and it's, I don't know that we're always 1363 00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:12,840 successful with that. But you know, like this Dots of 1364 00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:14,560 God was a lot of work. We did multiple books. 1365 00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:16,800 It's, it's an amazing game. It's really, it's Chris's 1366 00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:18,520 vision. It's, it's very well researched. 1367 00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:20,200 Lots of people came together. We, we talked to all these 1368 00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:23,440 historians and learned a lot. But it took a, you know, at 1369 00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:27,880 least a year, right to do that. So I think, you know, I want to 1370 00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:30,280 do stuff like 2. We do have to sometimes Kingdom 1371 00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:33,280 coming out or first high fantasy, which will be, I think, 1372 00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:36,360 a series of scenes and we have ultra dove, which is for now 1 1373 00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:37,560 scene. I do think we might do a second 1374 00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:39,080 because it's really cool at minimum. 1375 00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:42,200 And I I love this kind of zone fiction, near future sci-fi, 1376 00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:45,400 very urban. You know, I love urban 1377 00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:47,040 exploration. I'm just a big I'm a city guy 1378 00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:50,360 and it's got great alien environments and stuff, But 1379 00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:52,680 that's, you know, that's probably that's a lot of work 1380 00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:55,040 and to do still think to to maybe do more for blister 1381 00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:56,080 critters. That's going to take a couple 1382 00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:57,440 years. So if people in the meantime 1383 00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:00,560 want to run with the system and come up with good ideas, by all 1384 01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:01,520 means. I mean, you know, you can pitch 1385 01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:04,280 us, you can probably talk to, you know, people like plus one 1386 01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:06,160 XP, you know, if you have some Zen idea. 1387 01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:10,560 But you can also just publish it yourself and we're happy to 1388 01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:11,720 promote. And that's, that's another 1389 01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:13,680 reason I'd like to do the jam is if somebody has a good idea and 1390 01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:16,160 they want to promote their their thing, I'm I'm happy to promote 1391 01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:17,600 it and say, look, this is really cool. 1392 01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:20,480 I didn't do anything. I'm just telling people that we 1393 01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:21,880 at Sophie, you think it's a cool idea. 1394 01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:25,720 I made a whole list for the jam page of just genres that like I 1395 01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:27,440 have not written a, you know, a game about. 1396 01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:29,160 And it's like everything from cyberpunk. 1397 01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:30,600 We don't really have a cyberpunk thing. 1398 01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:32,720 And I know there's certain stealthy players want to do the 1399 01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:37,640 cyberpunk version right to, you know, sports ball like, you 1400 01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:41,000 know, do what if there's like a World Cup like sports? 1401 01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:43,720 Ball. Positive socialist vision using 1402 01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:44,720 the grits. I don't know like. 1403 01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:47,920 Clearly big sports fan here talking about sports ball, but 1404 01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:50,880 yeah, no, I mean from a creative side, yeah, from a creative, No, 1405 01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:56,640 no, all right, all right, Jeff, from from a creative side, like 1406 01:00:56,640 --> 01:01:01,520 obviously that's awesome, right? Like you having people make 1407 01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:03,440 stuff in your game is is awesome. 1408 01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:09,280 Having it approachable, having something that also sting people 1409 01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:11,440 make things. It's got to feel. 1410 01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:13,720 What's the word I'm looking for? Empowering. 1411 01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:16,680 Like to know that like I made a cool thing and someone is so 1412 01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:18,640 inspired by it that they also made a cool thing. 1413 01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:22,440 And it also is like validating to a point, I assume where where 1414 01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:24,720 you're just like, OK, someone does like it. 1415 01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:26,360 You know what I mean? Someone likes it not only enough 1416 01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:27,680 to play it, but also make something with it. 1417 01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:29,800 So from a creative side, that's really, really cool. 1418 01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:31,960 But also realistically actually, you know, kind of bringing it 1419 01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:33,400 back to a business perspective too. 1420 01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:37,440 When you look at the biggest games, indie games, small market 1421 01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:40,040 games, I'll call them. And 5E is not part of that by a 1422 01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:42,480 new strategy imagination. I don't even call it AT TRPG. 1423 01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:45,320 It is a monolith unto itself. It is it is all by itself. 1424 01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:48,440 We merely live in it's very, you know, poisonous shadow. 1425 01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:52,120 But from a business perspective, when you look at the biggest 1426 01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:53,920 games in the small market space, when you look at things like 1427 01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:55,640 Mothership, when you look at things like Merkborg, when you 1428 01:01:55,640 --> 01:02:01,280 look at things like like Mouse Rider, a lot of the third party 1429 01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:04,560 community and allowing a third party community to prosper only 1430 01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:07,880 benefits not only but like benefits the primary game, 1431 01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:09,000 right. So if you want your game to 1432 01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:12,200 succeed, having a bunch of people making other stuff for it 1433 01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:15,680 is marketing that you don't need to do is is is products that you 1434 01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:17,960 don't need to make. That still filters people down 1435 01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:19,560 into the community that you built for yourself. 1436 01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:23,520 So that is also a a a big part of it that also just happens to 1437 01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:25,240 tie into people making cool things. 1438 01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:27,320 No, totally. And we just so, for example, so 1439 01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:29,880 on why we roll, we talk to creators about as individual 1440 01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:34,840 indie TTRPG designers, their create creator journey, 90%, 1441 01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:37,360 maybe 10% of their politics. And we've had great 1442 01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:39,280 conversations recently with, I'd say I'm going to shout out 1443 01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:42,160 Roderick Maxino from Alewood Games, who does some thirty 1444 01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:44,920 party content for Mothership, which is amazing. 1445 01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:47,760 I actually think it's really cool because it's like, what if 1446 01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:50,520 you're the documentarians who get hired to do like an artsy 1447 01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:53,360 documentary about the asteroid where all the miners got killed 1448 01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:54,960 and like maybe the alien is still there. 1449 01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:56,800 And so it's like you're not space marines, you're 1450 01:02:56,800 --> 01:02:57,800 documentarian. So it's great. 1451 01:02:57,800 --> 01:02:59,680 It's like totally almost a different game. 1452 01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:05,320 It's AD makeup where you're like doing art about space horror and 1453 01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:08,960 we talked with, you know, Adam Good stations, Adam and Jamie at 1454 01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:10,120 stations. You've done a bunch of cool 1455 01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:13,040 stuff third party for different systems. 1456 01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:15,440 And a lot of that has been around their own ideas of sort 1457 01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:18,680 of poetry and like writing weird lists that are just really, 1458 01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:20,720 really useful in games and trying to figure out the right 1459 01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:23,160 list for mothership or for liminal horror. 1460 01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:25,760 We talked with Josh Domansky that was, along with Adam, part 1461 01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:27,720 of Orbital Blues Month. So we're talking about basically 1462 01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:29,600 people writing third party content for Orbital Blues and 1463 01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:31,400 very different approaches to adventure design. 1464 01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:33,880 And what does it mean to write an adventure coming into a 1465 01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:35,800 system where in a way you're agnostic to the system? 1466 01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:37,560 You're saying, yeah, I mean, I understand the system, It's fun. 1467 01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:40,000 But you know, that's I am not the creator of the system. 1468 01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:42,040 I'm not changing the system. I'm trying to tell good stories. 1469 01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,720 How do you do that? And I think for me, it gets my 1470 01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:46,200 brain going. It's not what I spend my time 1471 01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:47,080 on. And like, say you only have so 1472 01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:49,200 much time and it's business. You only have so much money, you 1473 01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:52,160 know, when you shoot your shots. But I would love it if other 1474 01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:54,880 people had those ideas if they want to tell their own stories 1475 01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:56,760 for Still Fleet, I will shout it again. 1476 01:03:56,760 --> 01:03:59,960 The stuff it's currently being used somehow amazingly by 1477 01:03:59,960 --> 01:04:01,800 world's beyond number and they're telling very, very 1478 01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:04,400 different stories right than I would still in the same vein. 1479 01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:07,360 I mean, I think we probably share the same politics, you 1480 01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:09,120 know that, but but it's a different world. 1481 01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:11,360 It's an Asimovian world with no aliens, I take it. 1482 01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:14,560 It feels like and my game is full of weird aliens and bio 1483 01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:16,600 punk stuff and it's it just feels like they want to do a 1484 01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:17,960 different sci-fi and that's great, right? 1485 01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:19,920 It's like I'm not I wasn't necessarily going to do that. 1486 01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:22,200 And it's great to have some of the the better artists out there 1487 01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:25,640 having examples so people can listen to it can can get that 1488 01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:27,400 idea. So I, I would love it. 1489 01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:28,480 Yeah. I mean, that's our dream, right? 1490 01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:31,560 As if people do want to engage with the system as such or one 1491 01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:34,120 of the game worlds and they want to tweak it in their own 1492 01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:35,760 direction. Whatever, man. 1493 01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:38,880 You know, I mean, we, we've seen that happen for games like 1494 01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:42,040 Mothership and Orbital Blues in the Little horror, just to name 1495 01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:44,080 a few, where there is a cool community. 1496 01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:46,360 And we really respect that. Troika, you know, and we, we 1497 01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:49,960 like a lot of those writers. We, we have been, you know, on 1498 01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:52,160 around that, right? Merk Borg especially, like I 1499 01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:55,600 think Tony and I have have we, we know it pretty well and we're 1500 01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:57,920 we're fans. It's just I don't usually run it 1501 01:04:57,920 --> 01:04:59,680 and I don't, I don't think Tony does anymore either. 1502 01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:01,080 I think mostly we're running our own system. 1503 01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:03,800 So that makes us feel like, all right, well, let's throw our 1504 01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:05,800 sort of ring in the hat and see what happens. 1505 01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:08,160 You know, and hey, if people pass, that's that's cool. 1506 01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:09,720 You know, at the end of the day, it's like it's a free thing. 1507 01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:12,280 So I do hope people check out the game jam. 1508 01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:15,600 And we are going to give away some prizes, TBD, but we are 1509 01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:18,240 going to give away books, PDS. So, you know, we want to make it 1510 01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:21,400 a fun community effort where if people submit stuff at the end 1511 01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:23,280 of the summer, yeah, we'll send you some books. 1512 01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:25,600 You know, that's awesome. So yeah. 1513 01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:28,280 So yeah, yeah, I have the game gym up here and I guess I guess 1514 01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:30,800 maybe for people that are in the space but maybe haven't done a 1515 01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:32,760 game jam before, I have the game jam page up. 1516 01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:34,800 So, so I guess just talk about the game jam real quick. 1517 01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:37,000 I know we've talked around it a little bit, but you know, like, 1518 01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:39,120 what is it like, how long is it lasting? 1519 01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:42,120 Like what do people have access to, to be able to to do stuff 1520 01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:43,280 with it, you know, all that kind of stuff. 1521 01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:46,600 How do people submit? Yeah, so we are running a game 1522 01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:48,920 jam on Itch, which if you've not done is really fun. 1523 01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:51,200 I've done a bunch now, mostly one page games. 1524 01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:56,360 And it's a fun way to just kind of really practice your your 1525 01:05:56,360 --> 01:06:00,000 art, maybe meet some folks, have a deadline, some people need an 1526 01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:01,720 artificial deadline. Sometimes you have an extra idea 1527 01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:03,600 it doesn't really fit with some other project you're doing. 1528 01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:07,960 And there's so many game jams on Itch and honestly, they're, 1529 01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:11,440 they're just fun, low stakes ways to get your stuff out there 1530 01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:12,760 and kind of engage with other people. 1531 01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:14,800 You can always do another version, right? 1532 01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:17,560 I mean, in general, unless it's a very restrictive one, which I 1533 01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:20,080 maybe have seen, but but it's not the norm. 1534 01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:22,080 You know, you're going to own the the content, right? 1535 01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:24,400 So I do encourage people not just to sit at our game jam, but 1536 01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:26,440 any game jam you think is appropriate if you want to do, 1537 01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:29,640 you know, for Halloween, there's always like cool, like vampire 1538 01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:34,240 themed or love crafting horror themed or slasher fiction 1539 01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:37,360 themed, you know, and there are on Itch, obviously game jams 1540 01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:40,760 that are for video game designers, you know, computer 1541 01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:42,560 engineers. Our game jam, we're thinking 1542 01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:44,680 about TTRPGS. If someone made a video game, 1543 01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:46,680 that's cool too. Like, I guess we'd have to 1544 01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:50,400 figure out judging there. But yeah, we're we, we make RPGs 1545 01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:52,600 so you could submit APDF. It's really easy. 1546 01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:55,280 It's free. And again, you keep the rights 1547 01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:57,480 to your PDF. The only thing with our jam is 1548 01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:00,120 we are asking people to use a third party license and the 1549 01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:02,960 third party logo that says that it's made for the grid system. 1550 01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:06,240 But again, you, you're the creator, you keep your own 1551 01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:09,840 copyright, all that stuff. So pretty similar to Borg or 1552 01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:11,880 other licenses, similar licenses, Mothership I think is 1553 01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:14,320 similar. So it's not like we're taking 1554 01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:16,000 the IP. We're just asking that you 1555 01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:17,800 credit that. It's it's for the grid system. 1556 01:07:18,080 --> 01:07:20,520 And that way, yeah, hopefully we get a community creators and we 1557 01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:23,560 can look at all of it holistically and sort of, you 1558 01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:26,600 know, celebrate it, give away some some books in terms of 1559 01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:30,240 dates, we're starting May 18th and ending August 24th. 1560 01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:31,680 So that gives you basically the whole summer. 1561 01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:34,840 So we will be sort of focused on this for the summer. 1562 01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:37,720 Just trying to get the word out. And we're hoping to get some 1563 01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:40,920 guest judges, the TBD on that. And they would judge it, you 1564 01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:43,120 know, in August and, and we'd announced a little after. 1565 01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:45,400 But yeah, it's, it's something we haven't done before. 1566 01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:47,480 We've done a smaller game jam, I should say, for Blister 1567 01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:48,600 Critters. We've never done them for the 1568 01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:50,880 whole system. So the Blister Critters 1 was 1569 01:07:50,880 --> 01:07:51,880 amazing. Thanks to everyone who 1570 01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:53,440 submitted. It was a lot of fun for Tony and 1571 01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:55,320 me to read through other people's ideas. 1572 01:07:55,320 --> 01:07:56,600 And they were really, really good. 1573 01:07:56,600 --> 01:08:00,600 I mean, that's I think something that is one of my favorite parts 1574 01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:03,320 of making art. These are the indie RPGs is the 1575 01:08:03,320 --> 01:08:06,000 barrier is lower. I mean, a lot of more people do 1576 01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:09,960 have access to let's say Canva or GIMP or some, you know, tools 1577 01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:12,200 scanning cool things you drew to notebook, right. 1578 01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:15,160 Shout out to Hodag RPG we've worked with who does everything 1579 01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:17,600 like drawing by hand. Ethan cool often is drawing 1580 01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:20,960 stuff physically and scanning it and it looks cool and then in 1581 01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:23,279 Photoshop or whatever you give, you can mess with it. 1582 01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:26,880 We we still use Indesign and and whatever Adobe products because 1583 01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:29,160 we're a small business and you know, my wife and I do this 1584 01:08:29,359 --> 01:08:32,600 otherwise for a living. So we, you know, we know how we 1585 01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:34,760 make stuff, but what I like about the game jam also is it 1586 01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:37,120 really incentivizes like you have a one page game, Literally 1587 01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:38,720 just take a picture of it with your phone and upload it. 1588 01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:41,760 I mean, you know, slap on the logo or we'll help you, you 1589 01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:45,160 know, just contact me. So we we don't want it to be 1590 01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:47,960 like a big deal. It's not like you know it's for. 1591 01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:51,000 Fox into APDF like it works. You got it. 1592 01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:53,760 It'll work. Yeah, great. 1593 01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:56,200 Yeah, I'm, I'm really excited for the we will make sure that 1594 01:08:56,200 --> 01:08:59,720 the the link to it is below so that you can access all of that 1595 01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:02,160 stuff. But as far as everything else 1596 01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:05,359 that you guys have made, still fleet, blister critters, all 1597 01:09:05,359 --> 01:09:08,160 that kind of stuff, like where can people find you? 1598 01:09:08,160 --> 01:09:09,399 Where can people find your stuff? 1599 01:09:09,399 --> 01:09:11,160 And then obviously we'll make the link for the game jam. 1600 01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:13,479 But if they want more still fleet, if they want more 1601 01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:14,640 ballistic critters, do more, more dance. 1602 01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:16,240 Matava, where? Where is that on the Internet? 1603 01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:22,399 We are everywhere at Still fleet.com and on social media at 1604 01:09:22,399 --> 01:09:24,160 Still Fleet. So pretty easy to find. 1605 01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:26,880 I think we have all those, Yeah. So fleet.com is everything. 1606 01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:28,640 We're very we try to be active on 1607 01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:32,200 discordsodiscord.stillfleet.com is a short link. 1608 01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:35,479 You can probably just Google it and we'll try to respond. 1609 01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:38,240 I'm at Still Fleet on Discord, so if you have anything you 1610 01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:39,880 wanted to chat about, just feel free to hit me up. 1611 01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:43,600 I'll try to be responsive. And yeah, we're doing our best. 1612 01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:47,800 I mean, we are really truly a small, small, small business and 1613 01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:49,040 we're we're trying to make a bunch of games. 1614 01:09:49,040 --> 01:09:50,560 We love games, we love playing games. 1615 01:09:51,080 --> 01:09:53,000 But yeah, we'd love if anyone wants to check out anything or 1616 01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:55,920 has questions, you know, hit me up whether it's about the the 1617 01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:59,840 system or or anything else. And hopefully we'll announce 1618 01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:02,040 more about the jam beyond just it exists. 1619 01:10:02,040 --> 01:10:04,440 But you know, prizes and guest judges soon. 1620 01:10:06,480 --> 01:10:08,360 I think that's about it. Oh, and hopefully, I mean, if 1621 01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:10,560 you know, again, I, I still think you, it would be fun to 1622 01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:12,600 play down some Cobb and have that experience because that is 1623 01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:14,200 a special game. It's very different. 1624 01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:15,480 You know, you die, you come back. 1625 01:10:16,200 --> 01:10:19,960 So it's kind of like a lot of OSR horrific, you know, dungeon 1626 01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:23,120 games, but it it has. Which is my shit, which is my 1627 01:10:23,240 --> 01:10:26,440 I'm an edge Lord garbage person and I love that. 1628 01:10:26,440 --> 01:10:29,920 And yes, we we we. So for those not to know, we did 1629 01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:31,960 we we tried for a while to get on the show and then, you know, 1630 01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:36,520 I had some stuff happen in in IRL and and then again we got to 1631 01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:38,360 run into each other at packs, which is fantastic. 1632 01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:40,280 But we've been trying to get dance McCabe on the show for a 1633 01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:41,920 little while. The summer's coming. 1634 01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:43,520 I think we're both kind of settling in. 1635 01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:46,800 So expect wife back on the show. Maybe, maybe we can try to 1636 01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:49,120 schedule a bit the jam or something so that we can we can 1637 01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:51,480 kind of again talk about the jam, actually get it on the 1638 01:10:51,480 --> 01:10:52,880 show. And O Hunter was excited to play 1639 01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:55,240 as well. So expect wife on again this 1640 01:10:55,240 --> 01:10:58,560 summer, probably, I assume Chris as well to see some dance 1641 01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:00,120 macabre. It is one I'm very, very excited 1642 01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:01,680 for. Still Fleet's fantastic because 1643 01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:03,560 I am a big, you know, 40K guy too. 1644 01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:06,320 But dance macabre is is the one that's been out so far that I've 1645 01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:08,360 been like, yes, this is this is the one that I really want to 1646 01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:09,440 play and I would love to have on the show. 1647 01:11:09,440 --> 01:11:12,520 So again, expect wife to come back on the show sooner than 1648 01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:14,640 later. And when the jam happens, you'll 1649 01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:16,920 hear about it again, whether we're doing stuff or not, 1650 01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:19,600 because the grid system's great and I love all the stuff you 1651 01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:21,560 guys are doing, and you guys are doing it in a way that I think 1652 01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:22,800 is really fantastic for the space. 1653 01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:27,200 So I want to say also, thank you for coming on the show again. 1654 01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:30,400 It's been too long and it should have happened sooner, but it's 1655 01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:31,800 been wonderful talking with you about it. 1656 01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:34,120 Yeah, thanks so much. Well, I hope Chris, I hope Chris 1657 01:11:34,120 --> 01:11:35,960 can come on and play Dots cop with you. 1658 01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:38,160 And I'm happy to just be long for that ride because that's 1659 01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:40,040 that's a weird fun one and and hopefully Hunter as well. 1660 01:11:40,040 --> 01:11:43,800 So thanks so much for having me. And yeah, I appreciate helping 1661 01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:46,680 us get the word out about the jam and and yeah, in general, 1662 01:11:47,480 --> 01:11:49,440 you know, maybe, maybe a still fleet 2 develops too. 1663 01:11:49,440 --> 01:11:52,400 We can discuss that because again, we we at least for the 1664 01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:54,120 next year, I don't think I'm going to stop it. 1665 01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:57,280 World War three aside, we're going to keep going. 1666 01:11:57,400 --> 01:11:59,600 We're going to keep making games so and we're going to be 1667 01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:02,480 watching weekly Scrolls so. Yeah, nuclear fallout aside, 1668 01:12:02,480 --> 01:12:05,160 we'll we'll, we'll definitely we'll definitely be talking more 1669 01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:07,920 still fleet, more grit system and more dance Magap here on the 1670 01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:08,840 show. But again, thank you so much for 1671 01:12:08,840 --> 01:12:10,200 being here. And that's going to be us for 1672 01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:11,720 today. So thank you all for listening 1673 01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:14,280 and we will see you all later and bye. 1674 01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:15,560 Thanks.