1 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,640 Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll Podcast. 2 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,280 My name Is Ryan and today we have a returning guest with us 3 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,080 today that is Kayla Dice of Rot Wave Gamehouse. 4 00:00:24,080 --> 00:00:28,080 How you doing today, Kayla? I'm doing good. 5 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:34,520 Yeah, I'm feeling excited to be back and been a little poorly 6 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:36,760 so, but I think I'm starting to get on the mend, so I'm feeling 7 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,720 better and that's that's nice. Good. 8 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,040 Fantastic. Yeah, so, so it's Zine month. 9 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,680 It's Zine Quest, it's Zine whatever, It's February and 10 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,520 we're doing Zine stuff and and you have a project out that is 11 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,640 ritual magic for besties that we're going to talk about today. 12 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:54,840 But prior to that, for those that maybe didn't watch episode 13 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,280 when you were on before, which was episode 97 wrote it down, 14 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,720 why don't you tell people a little bit about yourself about 15 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:04,959 Killer Dyson, right with Gamehouse? 16 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,440 Why not? So I'm Kayla Dice. 17 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,000 I am a tabletop game designer living in London. 18 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:16,840 I've been releasing games since December 2020. 19 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,000 I tend to say that all of my games, in different ways, focus 20 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,000 on themes of alienation and connection, really run the 21 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,280 gauntlet in terms of like style, genre and tone. 22 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,160 But I think I come back to those sort of core themes just because 23 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:34,200 they compel me. Essentially, I am maybe most 24 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,800 well known for a game I Kick started last year. 25 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:39,880 Terminal, a digital pirate action game inspired by The 26 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:43,800 Matrix, also might be well known for a transgender Deathmatch, 27 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,760 Legend or Follow Me in the Night A Cursed Radio. 28 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:53,120 I was the one of the winners of the Diana Jones the Emerging 29 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,960 Designer Award last year, which was a great honour and in that 30 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,720 time I get then ran a first Kickstarter that year. 31 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:01,720 Now I'm running a second Kickstarter. 32 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:07,840 I'd previously been working as a teacher as a day job, but this 33 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,000 year sort of. Since September I've been 34 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:16,120 attempting to make game design my myself employment, so I'm on 35 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,200 a year long experiment to see how I can make that work. 36 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:21,360 There we go. Yeah. 37 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:25,040 So as we said, I don't know if I said episode 97 was the last 38 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:26,680 time you were on and that was for Terminal. 39 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:28,480 That was when you were kick starting your project last time. 40 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,560 Super excited for that. As soon as I saw Terminal, I 41 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:35,000 reached out and said I really want to talk to this person. 42 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,960 This looks fantastic. I know that digital is already 43 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:39,920 sent. So here's my thing with 44 00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:43,080 Kickstarter. I back a lot of them but I will 45 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,720 flip through digital stuff. But I wait till I get physical 46 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,560 stuff to really sit down and dig through it cuz I wanna feel the 47 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,720 whole experience in my hands. And I believe you said it's 48 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,720 terminal is going to print now at this point, right? 49 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,080 Yeah, it has been sent to print. So the digital, we did it sort 50 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,120 of in waves basically. I did the digital of the core 51 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,840 book and then because I wanted to give stretch goal writers 52 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,840 time to respond to their edits and stuff, I didn't want to rush 53 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:09,360 them. But also I otherwise had like 54 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,520 the finished part of the game. So he put out that, then added 55 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,160 the stretch goals. Then there was about a week 56 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:18,800 period where I just was waiting to see if anyone caught any 57 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:20,560 errors or stuff they wanted us to fix. 58 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:22,920 Then we sent to print. They have arrived at the 59 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,040 warehouse of the fulfillment partner now along with the GM 60 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,880 screen which also went to print because some back has ordered 61 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,000 those. I don't want to give any like 62 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:35,000 timetables because that's now in control of the warehouse and 63 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:36,520 shipping and the fulfillment partner. 64 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,480 And I don't want to make any promises on their behalf that 65 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,640 they then go Kayla, why did you say that? 66 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,040 But it should be very soon. I'm excited. 67 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,200 I'm actually much the same with definitely books over a certain 68 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,960 size. I feel once a book past is 80 69 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,200 pages for me. I'm like I need to be able to 70 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,440 have this physically. I need to be able to flick back 71 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,320 in an easier way sometimes. I know it's myself losing, so 72 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,240 I'm really excited for it to to get out there physically. 73 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,200 When it does, I'll be communicating with backers about 74 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,480 everything. I'm really excited to hear about 75 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,840 people getting it to the table because it was the biggest thing 76 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,240 I made. It was a super challenging 77 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,160 project in terms. It was the first time I worked 78 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,040 with an artist, first time I worked with an editor, first 79 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:21,560 time I hired other writers, and in sheer sort of scope, it was 80 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:23,680 so much bigger than anything I've done before. 81 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:28,720 And I'm really proud of everything I did on it. 82 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,080 I'm proud of everything other people did on it. 83 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,520 And yeah, so I'm. I'm super excited to see it in 84 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,400 people's hands this year. Yeah, and like I said, I'm super 85 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,440 excited to get it in hand. So at some point and that's the 86 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,200 thing when you're back in Kickstarter project and I've 87 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,640 known after backing there very, very many is you get it. 88 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,600 When you get it, just buy it and then have a surprise at some 89 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,200 point check your updates every now and then. 90 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:54,240 But it is. It is right. 91 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:56,160 It is in quest. It is in month. 92 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:57,880 It is in whatever it is, February. 93 00:04:58,040 --> 00:04:59,720 So you have a project going out right now. 94 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:01,840 This is ritual magic for besties, and it's not on 95 00:05:01,840 --> 00:05:04,840 Kickstarter. It is on Crowdfunder instead. 96 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:09,920 But tell us about I guess. What's the What's the pitch for 97 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:17,720 ritual magic for besties? So yeah, so Ritual magic for 98 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:22,880 besties is AGM less game played with tarot cards where you play 99 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:28,600 a group of magic users, all gathering to cast a ritual spell 100 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:33,040 and the fuel for this spell craft is the connections you 101 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,520 have with each other. And then that leads into sort of 102 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,360 essentially a series of rounds of the tower game where you're 103 00:05:40,840 --> 00:05:43,840 playing cards to guide the ritual and look into each other 104 00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:49,800 and asking a series of questions which enlighten the the deep and 105 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,360 personal history you have together. 106 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,600 And then you're using that to cast these spells. 107 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:59,720 It's written and designed by me. It is illustrated by Molly Mood, 108 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:04,080 who I think has really good just art style that in this book is 109 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:09,040 really well suited I think to giving the sort of fantastic 110 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,360 like magical realist slice of life tone that we have at play 111 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,960 and it's going to be presented in a sort of scrapbook layout. 112 00:06:16,280 --> 00:06:19,800 The campaign on crowdfunded just covers the initial goal, just 113 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,320 covers the editing and printing costs. 114 00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:24,520 There are no stretch goals for the campaign. 115 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,360 And then everything that goes beyond that initial cost is just 116 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,520 split 5050 between me and Mole and that is how we're getting 117 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:33,640 paid for the work we're putting into this. 118 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,600 And so you did breach the initial funding goal. 119 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,120 What you said is just covering printing, so at the very least 120 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:42,520 the book will exist. So that's fantastic. 121 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,000 Yes, absolutely. Yes. 122 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,760 So the book will exist even if we don't go much further than 123 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:51,120 this. I obviously really hope we do. 124 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,080 But if we don't, we have this book which we can keep selling 125 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,600 forever at cons, scene fairs, things like that. 126 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:05,000 Yeah, so it's you said the core mechanic is really using tarot 127 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,840 cards and developing relationships with people. 128 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:12,160 So when you're playing the game, is it the relationships that 129 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,880 you, Kayla, have with other people, or is it that the 130 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,240 characters in the game create with other people? 131 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,480 You definitely could play a game where you're just playing as 132 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,040 fictionalized versions of yourself. 133 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:25,560 I don't know how smart it would be. 134 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:27,080 It might be a bit prone to bleed. 135 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,920 The game has like a really fun character creation mechanic. 136 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,640 It uses some previous material from. 137 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,320 It uses material, I should say from one of my previous games, 138 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,240 the Infinite Dance Floor. You sort of pick out your style 139 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:44,040 and magical background, and you draw a major Arcana card to give 140 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:45,720 your character a sort of high concept. 141 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,640 And then with each of your characters, you map them on a 142 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,120 chart where you place down everyone's characters and 143 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,360 drawing lines between every single character and saying what 144 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,840 these line means. So it might be these people are 145 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:02,160 exes, these people are siblings. These people are currently 146 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,320 hooking up. These people are dating, but not 147 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,600 really publicly. They're secretly dating. 148 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,600 These two people went to a youth group together. 149 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:11,760 These two people used to work together and you get this sort 150 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,480 of messy layers because everyone connects to everyone. 151 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,760 And then from there you build your characters and in much I 152 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:21,400 don't know if you're if you're familiar with like much sort of 153 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,240 like belonging outside belonging games. 154 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:25,760 Often they near the end of character creation have this 155 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:30,280 moment of like ask one, ask, ask one left, ask one right to help 156 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,480 shade in the background you have with other characters in those 157 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,880 games. So the questions are very 158 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:37,720 inspired by that. There are often questions about 159 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:42,720 things your characters would already know but enlightening 160 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,080 the dynamic you have. There's stuff like why have you 161 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,320 never trusted me? It's a leading question. 162 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,640 There's this tag, there's this catch of like, OK, you've never 163 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,640 trusted me, that same thing about our relationship and now 164 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:57,800 you've got a sort of, you know, volley that back and help build 165 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,120 in this way. You could totally do where you 166 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,560 are playing yourself, but I think it could get it could get 167 00:09:03,560 --> 00:09:06,760 quite messy quite quickly. It'd be interesting, for sure. 168 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,960 Yeah, absolutely. So going through the Crowdfunder 169 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,440 page and and talking a bit more about mechanics, we love 170 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,560 mechanics here on the show. So the whole game happens. 171 00:09:16,560 --> 00:09:19,040 Is it just six rounds total after character creation? 172 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:20,760 Is that is that like the scope of the game? 173 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,360 Yeah, it's one of those interesting games where the 174 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,640 length of it really sort of depends on how many players you 175 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,240 have. You play a free player version, 176 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,960 it's six rounds. A round is just everyone player 177 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:38,560 taking a turn where they are one minor are kind of on someone's 178 00:09:38,560 --> 00:09:41,400 personal stack and that's like I'm making or strengthening a 179 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,040 connection with this person to build this element of the 180 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:46,840 ritual. And then you fill in that 181 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,880 history and you start to say, well OK, we shared this memory 182 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:51,320 together where we're bird watching. 183 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:55,160 I'm putting a feather in the cauldron for this enchantment 184 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,160 which is going to grant someone good luck for their job 185 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:05,280 interview tomorrow or if there is going to help sort of someone 186 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,280 have a physical transformation that is is gender affirming for 187 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:13,840 them in some way. The round structure is partly 188 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,760 just a case of yes, structuring play. 189 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:21,760 Basically it's the six rounds around or in the occasions where 190 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,880 everyone gets stuck and is unable to play, in which case 191 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,440 you have to resolve in fiction. Well, what does this look like 192 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,800 where we are unable to bring ourselves to complete this 193 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,320 ritual to be go again. Do we call it and give up? 194 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:35,880 Why? Why weren't our characters like, 195 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:37,920 in the right headspace for this? Almost? 196 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,320 That's interesting. It's really so you're it. 197 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:47,240 It's there's this kind of almost inceptionally madness to like 198 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,920 sitting around playing a game about people sitting around like 199 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,240 doing a ritual, which is interesting. 200 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,040 Yeah, it was a thing I really enjoyed about the game and 201 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,240 definitely writing in sections where I'm like setting up a 202 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,960 ritual, which is setting up the game. 203 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,640 But also, you know, it's an interesting question where I 204 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,760 say, oh, who, whose character facilitated this ritual? 205 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,080 And that may be the same answer to the question who's 206 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:15,920 facilitated this game like you're playing. 207 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:20,040 It's, it's not lot. I don't have a lot background, 208 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:25,000 but I think it does, yeah. Creates like a situational, sort 209 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:30,360 of like proximity to the things you're playing, I guess is 210 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,920 something you see a lot in love, maybe not always in TTRPGS, 211 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,320 which are often more about big adventures. 212 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,680 Yeah, but I think I think it definitely will feed the the 213 00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:45,080 vibe really, really well, cuz I can imagine people coming to the 214 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,920 table, you know, especially when gonna be a character like 215 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,640 sitting around doing a similar thing. 216 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,640 It would be a nice connectiveness to the process. 217 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,840 Yeah, I can imagine someone, you know, they've got their personal 218 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:04,160 tarot deck, they probably lit some candles, and probably when 219 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,040 it comes time to describing what rumor our character's doing in, 220 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,680 I imagine a lot of people go probably 1 just like this. 221 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:14,120 Yeah, yeah. So tarot decks. 222 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:16,640 Absolutely. I mean, absolutely makes sense. 223 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,720 This is a game about doing ritual magic, so tarot deck 224 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,760 makes sense. But what? 225 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:27,800 What made you kind of lean towards, I think you mentioned 226 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,080 belonging, outside, belonging, great, fantastic game by the 227 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,160 way, the, the, the, the two together in one. 228 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:38,320 But what kind of, what was your impetus to kind of borrow from 229 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:43,000 that system a bit or or? Some of that, honestly, I think 230 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:49,840 it's just my background in design and in gameplays often 231 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:54,360 does you more towards the belonging outside belonging 232 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,280 space. I've written one previous 233 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,680 belonging outside belonging to embrace a swamp creature. 234 00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:03,640 One game I'm working on for this year called Psycho Dungeon, is 235 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:06,480 also actually loosely inspired by that system. 236 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,160 The method of, yes, establishing back story via questions. 237 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,720 It's saying I've really associated belonging outside 238 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,440 belonging, but I used it in Terminal because I just think, 239 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,240 well, this is a great way of shading in these character 240 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,440 backgrounds. I think it's the kind of set up, 241 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,360 I just naturally go to what I want to say. 242 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,320 These people already know each other, so we should know we as 243 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,040 players, it's really useful if we know about why they know each 244 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,440 other and how they know each other and what they think about 245 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:37,000 each other. And it's just, yeah, the way 246 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,240 that made most sense to me. Gotcha. 247 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,720 Gosh, I had a question and then I was listening to you and it 248 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,840 completely escaped my brain. So what was the what was the 249 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:53,000 impetus to to create a game about doing ritual magic with 250 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:54,640 your besties? Like where? 251 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,040 Where did the the initial kind of seed come from for for this 252 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,600 idea? It's interesting. 253 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,880 I remember it was a case I borrowed a deck of tarot cards 254 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,800 from someone from a friend of mine and was messing around, I 255 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,600 guess just sort of seeing what kind of like gameplay elements 256 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,040 it could. It's not really usually how I 257 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:18,000 design of going like oh what could I build around this 258 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:19,920 mechanic. I'm usually far more I have this 259 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,840 idea for this thing. What mechanics support that? 260 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,960 But in this case, I was just playing a round of cards and I 261 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,200 got into this idea of like, well, what is it if you were 262 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:34,200 conducting A ritual? And initially, I'm a really big 263 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,240 fan of the comic book series Phonogram by Kieran Gillan and 264 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,240 Jamie Mckelvey. And initially it was going to be 265 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:47,280 more of a closer riff on an element in the third series of 266 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,920 Phonogram, which focused on someone having made a deal 267 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,200 selling part of their personality and having 268 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,080 reinvented themselves. And initially, the ritual it was 269 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,560 going to be about was always a reinvention. 270 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,080 You were going to always be asking questions about 1 271 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,480 character. Who would then be, yeah, burning 272 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,840 parts of their personality or history. 273 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,800 But as I developed, I kept thinking like, oh, this doesn't 274 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,000 entirely feel like these characters doing a healthy 275 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:14,680 thing. I feel people playing it now, 276 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,280 which can be interesting, but I feel like people playing the 277 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,560 game would most often go, I don't know if I'd encourage my 278 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,640 friend doing this, so it's sort of stunning. 279 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,120 At that point I liked this idea of a ritual and I began to 280 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,040 expand. What are other kind of rituals? 281 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:31,880 What could their aim be? And then it sort of took me into 282 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:39,720 the space of ritual magic, almost as an allegory for coping 283 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,200 with your friends. You know, it is. 284 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:47,520 Let's go and order a pizza and get some some drinks in because 285 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:52,000 someone just lost their job. Let's help someone dye their 286 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,640 hair and burn some photos because they've been broken up 287 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:59,440 with. It became that sort of, yeah, 288 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,680 just these sort of small, intimate moments. 289 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:03,440 I think. I think I do find interesting 290 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,920 about the game is you could play it, it works very well for one 291 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,080 shot. You could play it longer, but 292 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,880 you'd only ever get the slice of life because you'd only ever see 293 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,800 these characters round the kitchen table casting magic. 294 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,080 You wouldn't see them going to work or stuff, and you'd keep 295 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:19,520 sort of skipping forward in that. 296 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:21,200 But yeah, it was born out of the mechanics. 297 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,760 It was born out of experimenting. 298 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:25,640 It took influence from Phonogram. 299 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,720 It had some thematic influence from wickedness via Possum Creek 300 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,840 Games. And yeah, I it was. 301 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,560 It was very much made in exploration. 302 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,480 And then from there, once I had that idea, I approached Moll 303 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:45,240 who, a big fan of him, wanted to to work with her for a long time 304 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,120 and said, you know, I'm thinking of Piers. 305 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,080 How would you feel if you were about drawing some sort of 306 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,320 magical items? How would you feel about we 307 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,360 magazine together? We both do our writing on art 308 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,000 and side for free and then split all of the money and mole. 309 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,240 Thankfully it was on board and we went from there. 310 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:10,000 Yeah, I really like the idea you said of being able to do longer 311 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:11,880 campaigns. We just get slice after slice 312 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:16,079 after slice because you could almost redo character creation a 313 00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:20,040 little bit where it's just like what's happened since last time 314 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,880 and like have these like new different or like strengthened 315 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:24,160 connections. So that's that's really 316 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,680 interesting idea of just like I don't know, you end up with the 317 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,440 loaf I guess of life but you know just slices, you know. 318 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,040 But it's a it's an interesting concept for for a game 319 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,080 especially like this because if you're doing a ritual to like 320 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,240 make something happen, it'd be interesting to see like the 321 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:42,840 outcomes of that the next time you kind of jump ahead. 322 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,440 So it's really interesting way that it could go. 323 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,400 One of the things like one of the pictures on crowdfunding you 324 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,760 talked about with the the layout and stuff is you started to go 325 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,640 with like a scrapbook style for the layout inside. 326 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,320 What what, what lends you towards that idea? 327 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,720 It's interesting because Malt had already started working on, 328 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:12,800 I think some spot art by that point, and I think was in the 329 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,840 middle of work on the cover. And I began basically thinking, 330 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:17,400 well, I should figure out what I'm doing with the layout. 331 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,600 Partly because I wanted to have some sample layout pages on the 332 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,440 crowdfunded page for the launch, but I really wasn't sure at one 333 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,160 point just because of the title. I was like, do I make it look 334 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,920 like a magazine? Like more explicitly like a sort 335 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,080 of maybe advice or lifestyle magazine. 336 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,800 But I didn't really have that reading background. 337 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,920 So I was like, this would maybe be a challenging then I can 338 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:42,960 enjoy a challenge. But I remember thinking it might 339 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:47,000 feel a bit hollow and imitative because I wouldn't be working in 340 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,840 a space that I have affection and knowledge about. 341 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,080 And I think coincidentally I actually was at the point of 342 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,120 going, oh, I should scrapbooks and things because I have a 343 00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:01,360 scrapbook every year. I sort of like keep many 344 00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:04,520 mementos, like film tickets, sometimes train tickets, that 345 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,600 they're like memories of people I've gone to see scraps from 346 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:08,960 like role-playing game stuff I play. 347 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:10,640 And I pinned them on a board throughout the year. 348 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,000 And then at the end of the year I take all that stuff and 349 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,360 scrapbook it. And I kept thinking, oh, I need 350 00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:20,320 to update my scrapbook. It's January and just doing that 351 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,240 made me go, oh, maybe that's what the layout for ritual magic 352 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,120 for besties looks like. So it was experimenting in that 353 00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:31,960 style, which led to the samples on the Crowdfunder page for 354 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,000 making the book. When it's time to do that, I'm 355 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,320 just waiting for a final draft back from the editor. 356 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,480 I'm going to maybe do more from scratch. 357 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,440 I'm going to be basically set up in a library with a scanner and 358 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,920 some ripped paper and go from there. 359 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,600 But yeah, I think I made it look quite sort of personal. 360 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,840 It gave it like a nice sort of zeny DIY feel, which I think 361 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,680 felt good for the the time of month that we're we're working 362 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:01,120 in. But also, yeah, it gave it an 363 00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:05,680 intimate feel like it's not framed explicitly as someone's 364 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:10,600 in universe scrapbook, but it has that kind of feel. 365 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,360 And then it lets us do some sort of playful diegetic stuff. 366 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,200 So in one of the samples. The Rat Wave gamehouse logo is 367 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,040 just like loosely stamped in and then written in mark and next to 368 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,320 it, rather than usually sort of integrate. 369 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:29,000 I think I have some nice ideas about maybe modifying receipts 370 00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:31,800 and turning text from receipts into something. 371 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:33,880 When it comes time to actually make the game, I want to do 372 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,600 something that basically, yeah, it just feels very lively and 373 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:42,800 diegetic because I think that fits the theme and also it lets 374 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,760 me support Mole's brilliant art in a way that doesn't feel like 375 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,880 I'm I'm leaving all of the heavy lifting to mould. 376 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,400 Yeah, yeah. It's really interesting with 377 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:59,440 this kind of like not Larping, but like that's kind of close. 378 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,200 You can get in a TH RPG space in can I? 379 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,960 We talked before how you're sitting around doing a ritual, 380 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:07,960 Like you're sitting around playing a game which can be 381 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:13,440 ritualistic and even in the book itself, feeling like it's kind 382 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,640 of an in world thing, but not quite like it's still a 383 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,520 rulebook, but it really lends those vibes. 384 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:21,920 So it really feels that there's this kind of consistency 385 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:28,160 throughout that closeness to the content of of the game while 386 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,840 you're still out of the game, you know what I mean? 387 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,400 So it's it's an interesting kind of consistency across the space. 388 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,680 Yeah, it's it's probably one of the few games where someone 389 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:44,640 could go, oh, I just got to check a rule in the rule book in 390 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:46,640 a way that wouldn't entirely break immersion. 391 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:53,160 Yeah, it's interesting because I I really like that idea too, 392 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,800 because you it could have easily been like a grimoire or 393 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,080 something, you know what I mean? Like it would really still lean 394 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,160 into that. But I can imagine if it's a 395 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,320 bunch of besties sitting around doing ritual magic, I kind of 396 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:09,000 like the idea more of it being like this scrapbook of someone's 397 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,760 like, oh, let me see if I have this, like the clip of a magic 398 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:13,880 spell or something, as opposed to like somehow they got their 399 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:15,400 Necronomicon or something, you know? 400 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:24,000 Yeah, it's definitely something the game diegetically feels like 401 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:29,680 how I feel about the game, If it's something personal, a bit 402 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:37,240 raw, a bit sort of intimate, I think it's, you know, the sort 403 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:42,520 of tender painfulness of of being known by someone. 404 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:47,080 And then the book itself is this sort of carefully constructed 405 00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:49,400 thing that the book itself will be made. 406 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,400 Very high quality. But I think the feel of it 407 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,280 almost feels fragile, like it might sort of fly apart just in 408 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,920 a design sense. And I think that it mimics a lot 409 00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:59,560 of the emotions I wanted out of the game. 410 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,960 Screen and and again it's that really the closeness to playing 411 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,760 the game and feeling the game. The vibes just feel like it's 412 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,320 going to emanate from this. So you're you're doing ritual 413 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:16,720 magic for besties in the game. Are there going to be like a 414 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,480 number of rituals that people are able to do in it? 415 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,120 Like is that the kind of thing it is where you you pick one of 416 00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:25,160 them and then are all around trying to complete that one and 417 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:26,600 then are there going to be listed ones? 418 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:33,280 So yeah, when the there is the setting up, the ritual section, 419 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,840 which includes some starting sections, just asking like what 420 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:37,640 are your characters doing? Who's hosting this? 421 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,480 Describe the room, you're doing it, and then it's like, what 422 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,920 ritual are you attempting? And there's a decently sized 423 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:45,760 list that breaks down a lot. They're not. 424 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,040 They're basically sort of, yeah, written as in universe extract, 425 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,080 someone's just musing on musings on rituals. 426 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,360 They're often quite sort of broad, but then narrow, and you 427 00:23:57,360 --> 00:23:59,840 might imagine a specific situation you're crafting in 428 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:01,480 there. So when we talk about there's a 429 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,280 section on oh, Magic's a transformation and explains how 430 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,720 ritual's a transformation work, it goes OK, it's way easier on 431 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,000 an object, it's way easier if it's temporary. 432 00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:17,240 But people can do, you know, full lasting magic ritual spells 433 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,520 on people that will, you know, that are not fading. 434 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,440 And it talks about reasons people do it. 435 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,600 And it goes, oh, it might be people, you know, wanting an 436 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,880 authentic costume party, wanting a sort of temporary change of 437 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,880 appearance. Or people might be using it for 438 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,040 DIY gender affirming care and all of these things. 439 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,720 Yeah, they're mainly there just to give ideas, but they're also 440 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,440 glimpses in how this world works. 441 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,160 I think the game doesn't have this really hard setting with a 442 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:50,640 bunch of rules or facts about it in the way the other games I've 443 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,120 written have been yeah, very sort of you know an anti cat and 444 00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:56,480 attitude in terms of like once you take it to the table it can 445 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,360 be disregarded. But a Canon in terms of oh 446 00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:03,120 here's a listed bunch of of names and places that you can 447 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:04,400 use. This warrants a lot. 448 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,040 An implied setting you know it's an urban fantasy place. 449 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,080 The character styles I'm having you pick for the framing of it 450 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:17,360 as slices, slice, slice of life, and then the way these rituals 451 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:20,680 are described give just sort of wider hints about the world. 452 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,520 There's a on a section of communing to dead, communing 453 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,120 with the dead. There's an anecdote about how 454 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,920 courts might use ghosts as witnesses, and that's just 455 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,280 giving a slight hint of like, what is this world we live in 456 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:37,200 that we're playing? I really like that, like that. 457 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,200 I feel like that's a good way. I know we've talked numerous 458 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,400 times about how the game is kind of pulling you into the vibes of 459 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,320 the game, but it's also really nice to have that like little 460 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,960 bit of distance from it as well. So you don't get like a ton of 461 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,360 bleed or something in into the character. 462 00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:56,760 But to go like, Oh yeah, we could totally do this magic. 463 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,480 And like, people know that magic is a thing in this world that 464 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,280 we're playing and like having ghosts in the courtroom and 465 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,160 things like that. It's a really nice little kind 466 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,400 of twist to, to make it still feel like a fantasy world that's 467 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,920 in a game, Yeah. Absolutely. 468 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:19,160 I think it is, you know, I think it's, I don't necessarily always 469 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,720 consider myself someone who's going for like allegory. 470 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,960 I think like there are certain projects of mine where I look 471 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:26,920 back and I go, oh, this is about that. 472 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,480 You know, you might argue like all terminals about this theme. 473 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,560 Some might argue all transgender death badge legend, even if not 474 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,240 explicitly. That's a bit about St. 475 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,120 harassment, but it's not a metaphor for or an allegory for. 476 00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:41,440 This one is definitely one where I think it is close to where you 477 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:42,360 can go. You can see what it's an 478 00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:45,200 allegory for. Like here is all this distancing 479 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:50,240 elements so you're not gonna just open some wounds at the 480 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:55,520 role-playing game table. And your counterpart in this 481 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,320 project, Malamute, she's the OR they're the social media person 482 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,760 for some Olympic Games. Is that how you originally came 483 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,360 in contact with them and want to start working them? 484 00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:09,440 Or how did you guys kind of develop this relationship to to 485 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:15,800 work together? So me and Moll first met maybe 486 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,480 two years ago, possibly even like two years ago around this 487 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:25,440 time we met online. We were both in a play test for 488 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,520 a game by Soul Muppet, but before Moll worked for them 489 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,480 even, and we just became friends. 490 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,720 Through that, I've seen Moll's art before. 491 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,840 I've wanted to work with Moll on a bigger project. 492 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,520 For a long time, Moll did work on Terminal. 493 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,960 They were the creator of the map, which I think is really 494 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,760 well done. But I'd always thought like, oh, 495 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,880 it'd be really nice because me and Moll are great friends who 496 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,800 who get along really well and have now known each other for a 497 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,760 while. I just thought, you know I've 498 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,080 I'm someone who finds it really nice to create things with 499 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:03,920 people I know and care about. And so I really wanted to be 500 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:05,520 working with Moll. There were times other times I 501 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,680 thought of different projects and so often the first thing 502 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,040 that come to my mind would this work with Moll. 503 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,440 And sometimes I look and go, no, it's not an exact match here. 504 00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:19,560 Well, for for sort of various reasons. 505 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,520 Sometimes it's like I don't know if Moll would be interested in 506 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,160 that. Other times it's like I think 507 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,960 this would be just a weird fit. But this is one, yeah, where 508 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,360 once I came up with it, I thought I think Moll would be 509 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:33,600 great for that. And I was really glad that that 510 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,600 they wanted to be on board. And when they read through the 511 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,960 book and came away feeling inspired, that was really 512 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,480 exciting. And because it's such a sort of 513 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,040 5050 partnership in terms of direction of stuff here, it's 514 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,000 often me just asking more like what kind of stuff would you 515 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,680 want to draw that would help sort of fill in the game, you 516 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,640 know, do as as much or sort of as little as you want. 517 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:02,280 And then you know it's, it's feels like a real collaboration, 518 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,240 but it's still sort of in progress. 519 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,240 The aim is all written, it's gone for a first round of 520 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,760 editing. It will then go for a second and 521 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:16,480 then I'll be applying it into layout and working with Mole on 522 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,720 on the art as we sort of put the finishing pieces together off 523 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,040 the campaign. Yeah, it's Love one projects are 524 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:26,680 written by the timid, they get to crowdfunding. 525 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,720 It's definitely the way to go. So it it is Zen month, it is 526 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,040 Zing Quest and I'm always curious when people put out 527 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:38,040 projects during Zing Quest. Kind of the the thought behind 528 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,160 it because some people are like I've been planning this for six 529 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,320 months just for Zing Quest and some are like I've been planning 530 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,400 a game, I guess it kind of fits and some are like, oh shit, it's 531 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:45,680 Zing Quest maybe I'll do something. 532 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,720 So when you decided to do ritual magic for besties for Zing 533 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,760 Quest, did the fact that it was inquest come into your mind at 534 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,760 all, or was just the timing? Well, and it is inside. 535 00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,320 So you decided to do it for is inquest? 536 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,920 Yes, so I'd been. Initially I'd had a different 537 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,440 plan of what was going to be my next crowdfunding project after 538 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,200 Terminal. I've been working on a game 539 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:16,320 called Psycho Dungeon which I've described as like a workplace 540 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,760 fantasy. The action drama played with no 541 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,720 dice and no masters. And I was looking at 542 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,880 crowdfunding that basically that project would a have been way 543 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,400 too big to run as a Zen month project. 544 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,000 And also I think it's one I will run on Kickstarter. 545 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,920 So I need to wait until terminal is finished so that I am clear 546 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:40,480 to create another Kickstarter. And I while I was working on 547 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,240 this project as a game, and then I think in my initial pitch 548 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,240 tomorrow, I was like, we'll run this during Zine month and do 549 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,600 this 5050 split. So I think that was a starting 550 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,960 pitch then. Then I think at one point there 551 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,040 was maybe possibility of me just finishing the game. 552 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,200 I think if Mole had said I'm not that interested, I'd have 553 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,160 probably just finished my own and I don't think I'd have run 554 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,120 it as a crowdfunder. But running it as crowdfunder 555 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,600 with Mull on board, it just sort of gave a shape to the campaign. 556 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,160 If it covers these initial costs, then everything's split. 557 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:15,920 It wasn't planned that far in advance. 558 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:20,080 I think I made the initial discussions with Mull about 559 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,520 like, hey, would you want to do this in December? 560 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,440 And then I think I set up the page but didn't really have it 561 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,800 properly clear ready for everyone to be seeing until mid 562 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,480 January. It was a a quicker put together 563 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:38,400 thing and I don't think I would run this sort of stuff exactly 564 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,320 the same way. I'm glad I'm doing it because, 565 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,520 you know, it means this game is getting out because you passed 566 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:47,200 that initial funding goal. But yeah, it was one that I not 567 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,400 necessarily rushed because I think I set very sort of modest 568 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,640 goals around there. I think I did enough with the 569 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,480 timing. I had to do all of the things I 570 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,000 needed. But I don't think I got as much 571 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:05,400 advanced word around about the book that other people who've 572 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,680 been, you know, talking up their projects, yeah, for longer have 573 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,440 been able to do. And that would have probably 574 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,320 been beneficial. But I think the site that had 575 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:20,520 like small modest goals and not too much risk for us in terms 576 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,880 of, you know, we weren't going to be out of pocket if things 577 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,360 did go badly. It made sense that I felt 578 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:32,560 comfortable putting together on a shorter time frame. 579 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,800 The idea of doing something like Terminal on this time frame 580 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,480 would be terrifying, but I think it fit for what we were doing 581 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,440 here. Yeah, I mean that sound that 582 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,720 feels like like the the ideal Zenquest project, right? 583 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,600 Like that's what a lot of people are doing. 584 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,800 And you know, I know some people put out these these huge things, 585 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,720 but when you have something that's like this will probably 586 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,880 work and like you said, there's not a whole lot of risk involved 587 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,000 and you know the funding goal is done. 588 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,640 So at the very least it's going to exist. 589 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,640 It's a great looking project so it'll be out there in the world 590 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,440 and to get the experience not only for Zenquest with a smaller 591 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:14,360 timeline with a good friend, but to work on a different platform 592 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:15,800 as well. Cuz as we said, this is on 593 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,200 Crowdfunder not Kickstarter. I mean, it sounds like a good 594 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,000 experiment for and you still get a game out in the world at the 595 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,160 same time, so. Yeah, definitely. 596 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,680 It's been an experiment. It's an experiment which we was 597 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,640 safe if it did blow up in our faces to I guess continue the 598 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,800 metaphor and yeah, like I said, I'm trying to sort of shift to 599 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,680 being just self-employed and make that sustainable. 600 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,080 So that relies on making a lot of experiments in this year and 601 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,600 seeing what can work out. There you go. 602 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:52,520 Exactly after this project is done, I mean we get terminal 603 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,320 will get to people's hands at some point. 604 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:55,600 It's out of your hands at this point. 605 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:01,520 This you said is is is written past editing and it's just gonna 606 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,440 get to layout and get out. Then you had already mentioned a 607 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,199 project you were working on next, but what is the next thing 608 00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:11,520 that we can expect from Killer dice from Wave Gamehouse? 609 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:13,880 If you wanna talk a little bit more about that at all, if it's 610 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:15,040 Psycho Dungeon or something else. 611 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,639 Yeah, so I have a few projects coming up. 612 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,320 Some will be getting out physically, then ritual magic 613 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:30,360 will also move into it's sort of layout phases and go from there. 614 00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:34,440 The next big project then that I would like to be taking to 615 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,480 kickstart us sometime this year will be Psycho Dungeon, which 616 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:43,080 basically takes place in a world where when people's troubles and 617 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:48,600 stresses reach a breaking point, they manifest as these Dungeon 618 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,080 esque landscapes that just sort of lots in the world and you 619 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:54,840 play as a series of psycho plumbers. 620 00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:59,560 You are sent into these places to clear them out and help close 621 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,920 them by helping the affected clients that have come to terms 622 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,080 of what's going on. It's, you know, about being poor 623 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:10,360 city folk. Poor city folk folk working a 624 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:17,760 job that is draining and messy and doesn't always pay well, but 625 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,400 is also a thing that's important to do. 626 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,680 The world, sort of. I described it as part handyman, 627 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:27,760 part therapist, part adventurer. It draws on a lot of experiences 628 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:33,760 I had in working as a teacher in a in a sort of strange way, and 629 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,640 it has a really cool style. I think visually it's got going 630 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,320 to focus on a lot of digital college that I've made together, 631 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,440 as well as mechanically being sort of descended from other 632 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,440 belonging outside of belonging systems. 633 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,840 That's going to be my next big project. 634 00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:52,640 From there I have other things I'm excited about. 635 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:57,720 I am looking at putting together Transgender deathmatch, Legend 636 00:35:57,720 --> 00:36:01,520 2A sequel Slash expansion that will come out this year. 637 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,840 In terms of bigger projects I might end up working on towards 638 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,640 the end of the year, playing around sort of time travel 639 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:15,960 things or games, a sort of montage based game built around 640 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:18,840 big rivalries. But those are in the favor of 641 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,600 project where it's a lot of working through them, seeing how 642 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,440 they're going. I think often the best way to 643 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:28,680 find out what the random things I'm working on are to subscribe 644 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,040 to my newsletter, which I think you can do at 645 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:38,520 ratwavegamehouse.itsratitsnewsletter.ratwave.uk. We'll get you that and then I 646 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,120 usually just share any work in progress details on things I'm 647 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:46,040 up to. Yeah, that was going to be one 648 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,920 of my next questions We have you, you have some amazing work. 649 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,720 I really enjoy a lot of stuff you've done. 650 00:36:50,720 --> 00:36:52,760 Like I said, I'm super excited for Terminal, excited for this, 651 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:54,480 and Psycho Dungeon sounds fantastic. 652 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,720 I love the idea of just like, I mean, you don't want someone to 653 00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:01,960 have enough trauma that they like somehow, like bring a 654 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,160 dungeon into existence that someone has to go through. 655 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,280 But it's such a really interesting concept. 656 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,080 So it sounds like a fantastic project. 657 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,960 So I was gonna say where where can people find you and I have 658 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:13,160 it on the screen there I believe it. 659 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,520 So what I have is right wave.uk and that takes you to like the 660 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,280 the WordPress, is that is that the the newsletter on your 661 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:20,440 website or is it something? Yes. 662 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:25,160 So that's my big sort of website which has a directory to digital 663 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,080 store. It has information on where you 664 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,480 can buy things physically because I basically have books 665 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,080 available for a couple of different outlets. 666 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,280 From there also has a blog where I sometimes post things. 667 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,920 It has links to the newsletter itself as well as details on if 668 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,200 you're someone looking to build projects. 669 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,440 My freelancing rates and details are on there, and I'm trying to 670 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,600 think if my website has any other things on it worth 671 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,040 shouting out. But yeah, basically go to 672 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,720 rightwave.uk and you can find everything you need to keep up 673 00:37:57,720 --> 00:38:00,160 to date with me, as well as then a link tree of all of the social 674 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,280 media I'm on because they're all sort of scattered to the four 675 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,640 winds at the moment. Now we have to have like 8 of 676 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:07,120 them just to see which one survives. 677 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,080 Yeah, it's been fun. Is there are there any shops 678 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:12,600 where people can find your stuff? 679 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,080 Because I know you're based in the UK, that's the assumption 680 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:20,080 based on the right wave.uk, but are there places in different 681 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,520 parts of the world where people are able to to buy your things 682 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,000 or shops outside of your website? 683 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:25,720 We can like does the. Sir. 684 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,400 Yeah, so there are three places off the top of my head. 685 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,680 Indie Press Revolution has physical copies of Transgender 686 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:39,120 Deathmatch Legend available, and I keep meaning to send them an 687 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,720 e-mail and ask if they'd be interested in taking more of my 688 00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:47,200 stock. Soul Muppet, who have Warehouse 689 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:52,160 in the UK and the US as well and so have rest of the world 690 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:57,640 coverage, have a collection of some of my smaller zines and 691 00:38:57,720 --> 00:39:02,880 books where you can find there and plus one Exp was recently 692 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,640 put out as part of their RPG Zine Club. 693 00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:09,240 A previous release of mine called Fear the Taste of Blood, 694 00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:17,240 which was a game of classic movie monsters that would that's 695 00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:19,960 available via plus one. So those are those three places 696 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:21,840 basically, yeah. If you go to ratweb.uk, there's 697 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,720 a section where it says where you can buy physically, and that 698 00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:26,360 includes links to those three places. 699 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:34,080 I'm looking at in the next couple of months setting up my 700 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,720 own storefront, which will also then be through the website just 701 00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:41,360 so I can work on sort of some smaller projects of mine and get 702 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:45,480 them out directly to people. Gotcha. 703 00:39:46,240 --> 00:39:48,720 There you go. So Kayla, thank you so much for 704 00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:50,320 coming on. Really, really appreciate it. 705 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,520 I'm sure this will not be the last time you've come on. 706 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,760 Terminal was a fantastic project, really excited to get 707 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:56,960 that in hand and this one looks great as well. 708 00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,760 Definitely go to Crowdfunder. We'll make sure that all of not 709 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:04,240 only the Right Wave website is linked below, but that the link 710 00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:06,960 to ritual magic for besties is in any of the descriptions, 711 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,080 whether you're listening, watching anything. 712 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,160 So you can go back. So you can go and back that 713 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,360 project right now. As we said the project is 714 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,160 completely funded already as far as printing it, but. 715 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,600 Everything from here on out for the next depending on when this 716 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:24,840 publishes the next 13 days as of the I think today's the 16th, 717 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,320 you still have time to go back ritual magic for besties, so 718 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,840 please go do that. I'll support a fantastic creator 719 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:33,120 who's putting on a lot of great stuff. 720 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,880 So again, thank you so much for being here. 721 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,880 Really, really appreciate it and excited to have you on again in 722 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:41,600 the future. Thank you for having. 723 00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:44,200 Me on. And anytime you have me back, 724 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,760 I'd always love to be here. You just let us know. 725 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,400 And you are, you are more than welcome. 726 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,240 So. So that's going to be us for 727 00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:51,200 today. That is a show. 728 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,560 As we said, all the links for everything that we're talking 729 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,040 about today will be below as well as our links exist, they're 730 00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,360 there. If you've listened before you 731 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,120 can find them. But again, Kate letting you as 732 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,200 much and everyone out there, have a great day. 733 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,080 Bye, bye.