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Hello and welcome to the Weekly 
Scroll podcast. 

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My Name Is Ryan. 
And I'm an untamed homunculus. 

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And with us today we have a 
special guest. 

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This is Josh of Rise Up Comus. 
How you doing today, Josh? 

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Doing good guys. 
Thanks for having me on. 

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Thanks for coming. 
Absolutely. 

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I've been so excited about what 
we're going to talk about today 

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for so long because I've been 
just seeing it on Twitter for so

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long and I'm sure we'll talk 
about that as well. 

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But for those that may not know,
who the heck are you and what 

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are we talking about today? 
Well I'm, I'm really just an up 

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jumped Blogger, but I have a 
game coming out next year called

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His Majesty the Worm. 
It is a game about, I mean, it's

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a, you know, one man's. 
Testament to his own folly, you 

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know it's about mega dungeon 
exploration game with a focus on

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the human elements. 
It has tarot cards as the 

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randomizing element, and I'm. 
I'm excited to talk about it. 

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Yeah, like, like I said, I've, I
feel like I've been seeing 

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something about His Majesty the 
Worm for as long as I've been on

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Twitter, and I know it hasn't 
been that long, but how long has

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you has this been in the works 
and have you been talking about 

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it? 
Cuz I know I've been seeing it 

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on Twitter a bunch and I've 
downloaded the appendices a lot,

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but I just recently actually got
to the blog and realized I have 

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so much to read, which makes me 
very happy. 

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But how long has this kind of 
been in the works? 

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Yeah, I mean, so I think like a 
lot of people that are in the 

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TTRPG space, this isn't my day 
job. 

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Which is, you know, I'm sure my 
boss would be very mad that I'm 

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on a podcast during my day job 
to talk about it, but you know, 

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I please don't. 
You know, this is just like this

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is my hobby project, my passion 
project, so and these things 

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have a long tail. 
Actually, printing words on 

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paper is difficult, time 
consuming, expensive. 

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So I've been at this for a 
little while. 

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I started writing the game. 
Seven years ago or so and you 

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know, just like hammering away 8
hours a week on Sundays. 

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So yeah, I've been yelling about
it for a while because it is 

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ITCH funded. 
I'm not going through 

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Kickstarter for funding. 
So what I did was to kind of get

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people interested and. 
See if this had any traction and

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see if we could like raise funds
for all the things that I know 

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that I cannot do, layout and art
and editing and things like 

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that. 
I put chapters of the book as 

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they were coming out, with some 
pretty simple layout and some 

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public domain images on each, 
and most of them are free or you

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could get them free if you 
signed up from a mailing list or

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had a pay what you will and 
people were kind enough to. 

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Come through, throw me 5 or $10 
and using that method I paid 

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everybody that worked on the 
book to contribute stuff. 

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So it's it's taken a little 
while because I had this kind of

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like long form method of 
crowdfunding, but it's you know 

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kind of finally coming out. 
So it's coming out next year in 

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Q1 from Exalted Funeral. 
Nice. 

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Very cool. 
Cool method, I guess. 

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Yeah. 
I guess the question is why? 

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Was it like, what? 
What made you want to do that? 

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Was it just so you could put 
stuff out as you worked, or was 

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there a specific reason you 
didn't want to go to something 

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like Kickstarter, as, as you 
know, someone who hasn't put out

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like a ton of stuff already was?
Was that like a factor that 

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played into it, or was it just 
about putting out the 

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dependencies? 
Yeah, I. 

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Think Kickstarter is terrifying 
and is very scary as a space 

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and. 
Is a tremendous amount of work 

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and I like writing games. 
I'm here to write and play games

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that I enjoy with my friends. 
It is, like I said, a hobby and 

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it's something I don't want to 
like, lose that joy about, 

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right? 
Kickstarter has the likes. 

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I have some some feelings about 
it, especially as like larger, 

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more successful and established 
companies essentially just use 

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it for like fulfilment. 
You know they put out 

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essentially like a 99% finished 
project. 

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They're like oh please back us, 
which is you know, not you know 

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competing with companies like 
that is very intimidating for a 

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guy with not a lot of things out
right now, right. 

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So I I wanted to do a non 
traditional route for a couple 

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reasons but the the main one was
just I'm here for the love of 

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the game. 
Yeah, I mean that's fantastic. 

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Like you said a lot of a lot of 
bigger companies are really 

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using Kickstarter now is like a 
like a pre-order storefront not 

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as like I need your investment 
to make this thing happen and 

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that's shitty but Kickstarter 
just making money so they don't 

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give a shit. 
Yeah OK so you know teach their 

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own but this is the this is this
is great like that's these are 

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the kind of projects that we 
definitely love to find and you 

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know the first time I I read 
through the 1st dependency I 

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read was or the appendix I read 
was the sword is sorcery is a 

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sword without a a a hilt like 
just it's so good and when you 

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get through all the rest of it I
guess so many questions. 

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So to start it seems like a very
like table heavy and procedure 

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heavy but Rules light system. 
Was that the intention all along

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to have people? 
I know there's anti Canon 

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aspects to it to have it be kind
of like a build drone and then 

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go with it or what was and if so
like what was the impetus to 

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like choose that kind of path 
forward. 

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So is the question like you know
I want to make sure that I, I, 

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I'm I'm answering it right. 
Let me let me say it in the way 

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my brain works. 
So it's not an OSR game. 

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It's definitely a very you 
describe it as like a new school

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with old school sensibilities 
game. 

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It it uses tarot, it uses a ton 
of roll tables, you build out 

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your own mega dungeon as you go.
What made you want to go that 

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route as opposed to kind of like
the standard OSR and or you 

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know, D&D light game? 
Yeah, OK, got it. 

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I love the OSRI. 
You know, like I said, I'm an up

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jump Blogger and I got into 
blogging. 

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You know, just when it stopped 
being cool, the, you know, I was

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kind of there for the last gasp 
of G+, which is, you know, I 

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think most people in this 
audience probably are are deep 

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enough in the nerd lore to get 
it. 

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But you know when you know 
there's the social media 

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platform that fueled this RPG 
movement in the like, the teens 

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and odds? 
And I was there just in time to 

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see it die. 
And I was like, all these people

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are talking about the coolest 
stuff. 

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They're everybody was so 
inventive and they were sharing 

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their their content. 
I mean, just like, I mean, it 

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blew my mind. 
I thought it was such, so much 

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more creative stuff than 
everything at my game table. 

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And I've played RPGs forever. 
And these guys were having the 

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experience that I wanted to have
and I I really was getting fired

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up by their their big ideas. 
So I started a blog and and it 

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was throwing little things out 
there to be part of this 

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community of people that had an 
idea, committed it to paper and 

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somebody else took the idea and 
ran with it. 

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And somebody else took that idea
and ran with it. 

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And there was these iterative 
processes. 

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As you can see the layers of 
strata as like things moved and 

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were passed around. 
Around blogs. 

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So like I I started playing OSR 
games at that point. 

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But when I was writing my own 
system, you know I I was making 

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the game that I wanted to make 
with my friends and I certainly 

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can and do play OSR games. 
But I'm also always synchrony 

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with mechanics. 
I think they're interesting. 

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I like game mechanics. 
I like thinking about them and 

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and playing with them and I like
to play different games because 

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of them. 
The the mechanics of a game have

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a different texture, have a 
different grip. 

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You know it feels different to 
just so you know do run through 

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different procedures. 
If you are in D&D and you're 

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making a role to attack and a 
role for damage, that feels 

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different than an into the odd 
game where you're not rolling to

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attack, you're just rolling 
damage. 

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And that feels different than a 
World of Darkness game where 

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you're rolling attack and damage
and defense and armor like all 

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those things have a different 
texture at the table. 

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So I'm like I'm interested in 
that. 

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So I wanted to play with the 
game that I. 

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Was like kind of just had in my 
head. 

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And I've always done that. 
I've I've made games for my 

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friends so that when we end 
there, I mean I've just been 

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blessed with a real indulgent, 
extremely kind friend group or 

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like, yeah, we'll play your, you
know, your little heartbreaker 

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and you know, Oh yeah, it's just
like a, yeah, it's very 

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indulgent. 
Yeah. 

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And then, you know, after I'd, 
like, made this game, I was 

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like, what does it take to show 
somebody that's not just my 

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friend, right? 
Like, how do I show somebody 

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that's not sitting at the table 
with me? 

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And what do I need to write down
so that they can play it, too, 

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without me hovering over their 
shoulder and explaining it to 

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them? 
Like, oh, no, I see why you said

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that. 
But actually, you can't do that.

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And it's like, you know, what? 
Do I, what do I need to do to do

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that? 
So this was my attempt to do 

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that. 
I mean, damn, I can tell you 

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right now, just based on the 
appendix, you did a really good 

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fucking job. 
I mean. 

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Thank you very much. 
So why tarot? 

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Yeah. 
OK, so the top level is in the, 

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you know, I was talking about 
how I think mechanics are cool, 

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I think card game. 
And then, you know, there's, and

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I'm not exaggerating when I say 
there's hundreds of games that 

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use cards as a randomizer, as 
kind of their main dice 

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alternative out there. 
And I think cards are really 

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cool. 
I like them because they are 

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persistent. 
You can have hands of cards. 

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They will stay on the table. 
If you put a card down, 

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everybody can like reference 
that card. 

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They have a gaminess to them 
because you can draw three, put 

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back to play from the top of the
deck, the bottom of the deck, 

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reorder parts of the deck you 
can. 

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They're informationally rich, 
especially tarot cards. 

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You know, they have suit, they 
have number, they have direction

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on the table. 
So there's a lot of stuff there 

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to play with. 
And you know, I could have made 

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a playing card game. 
Playing cards are $0.25 at your 

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I mean Kroger. 
But tarot cards look kind of 

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metal and they look kind of 
badass and they had this like 

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arcane feeling to them. 
And I don't use them for 

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anything else but gaming, but I 
think they are cooler to look 

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at. 
They're more interesting in my 

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hand. 
So I just was like, yeah, OK, 

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yeah, Tarot was the what I'm 
going to go with this time. 

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I'd agree. 
There's something just so much 

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more magical about like I 
because I I have a few playing 

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card like role-playing games and
then I think I have another 

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that's tarot based and it's 
like, yeah, pull the tarot cards

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out. 
Feels a lot more magical, you 

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know? 
Yeah. 

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One of that experience that my 
mom forbade me from playing D&D 

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for, right. 
Like in the 80s she was like, 

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no, you can't play D&D. 
And I'm now I'm like, yeah, 

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because it looks like this. 
Because, like, yeah, she's. 

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Really leaning into that, I I 
remember as a kid like just 

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thinking tarot cards are really 
cool and ask my parents if I 

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could get a set and then like 
having to go talk to my pastor 

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about why I'm not allowed to 
have a deck of tarot cards and 

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now I have like 10. 
So you know thanks. 

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Thanks mom and dad. 
Yeah. 

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00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,840
I mean it's it's it's really 
interesting the way that they're

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used in the all the different 
appendixes as a really is a 

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generative tool. 
They're not, cuz so from 

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everything I've read so far, 
I've seen hints of like what 

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combat is like. 
Maybe in the the blog post that 

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00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:14,720
I haven't got to yet there's a 
little bit more talking about 

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that. 
So I don't know if they're more 

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built into the mechanics that 
way. 

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But from what I've read through 
the appendix is a lot of the 

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like dungeon building aspects 
are really like you can 

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00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,320
literally flip a card and be 
like guess what that's where 

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you're at now. 
Or especially in like the 

224
00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,040
magical ones and stuff as well 
like the tarot or so associated 

225
00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:37,520
with pretty much everything that
you can do to build a procedure 

226
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:42,640
and stuff like that. 
So was it difficult to take that

227
00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:47,320
or did you kind of take the like
the numbers like major Arcana, 

228
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,600
minor Arcana suits numbers and 
went OK, I have this many 

229
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,040
numbers to work with. 
This is how I'm going to 

230
00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:53,800
incorporate it. 
Like what was your kind of 

231
00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,320
process for choosing how to use 
the Tarot into the various 

232
00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,480
procedures? 
Yeah, good question. 

233
00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,400
I I think. 
So I mean really in a in a in a 

234
00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,880
very, very basic way the cards 
are are just a randomizer and I 

235
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,560
think they have some like 
additional gaminess that I 

236
00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:14,160
mentioned you know the that that
come up in in different rules 

237
00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:20,720
especially combat. 
But really really you I mean and

238
00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,800
and there's a sidebar that 
explains if you don't have a 

239
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:25,840
tarot deck and you just have 
some playing cards you can you 

240
00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:30,000
can do it in a pinch. 
I think some people are 

241
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,000
interested in tarot games. 
Because they're interested in 

242
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,760
tarot reading and they think 
that the tarot reading aspect is

243
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,000
an important part of gameplay 
and it's really not. 

244
00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,720
It's. 
And you know, I still hope that 

245
00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,280
they want to play the game and 
stuff, but like that is not the 

246
00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,480
intention of having the tarot 
deck, you know, really it's 

247
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:56,040
just, it's just a randomizer. 
But because the randomizer is 

248
00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,120
persistent, you know you can in 
the same way that I mean. 

249
00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,880
Dungeon stocking procedures. 
What comes next in the dungeon 

250
00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:09,320
is as old as D&D itself because 
the your little randomizer is 

251
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,880
not just used looking up tables 
and rolling and writing down 

252
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,400
what you see. 
You can lay them out like it has

253
00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:16,760
like this additional fun 
element. 

254
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:24,400
I think that there's a kind of 
like play that really thrives 

255
00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,240
with dungeon crawling, and that 
requires some upfront work and 

256
00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,200
then the end. 
Love that work for AGM. 

257
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,520
So when it took, when it comes 
to building a dungeon, I think 

258
00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,720
that it takes a, you know, a 
couple Sundays of work. 

259
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,360
That's how I made the dungeon 
that I ran for for five years, 

260
00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:44,880
uninterrupted. 
Play a couple Sundays of like, 

261
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:48,040
thinking, what's in this 
dungeon, What do I need to put 

262
00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:49,840
there? 
What's interesting, what are 

263
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,120
interesting challenges, what 
makes for a fun game? 

264
00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,000
And I I, you know, wrote all 
that stuff down, all that stuff 

265
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,120
that was in my head about what I
think is fun, I put down on 

266
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,520
paper. 
And if you do that for, you 

267
00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,840
know, a couple Sundays and you 
have a a answer these like 

268
00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:06,080
series of questions, 20 
questions. 

269
00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,360
Play 20 questions for through 
yourself and you can make a a 

270
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:15,840
pretty decently sized dungeon 
and then you your work is done. 

271
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,720
You know, I think that there are
some games that thrive on like 

272
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:20,600
what are my players going to get
up to this week. 

273
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,240
Oh well, last week they did this
and now I need to plan for this 

274
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,800
and I'll start this encounter. 
I'll build my encounter, but oh,

275
00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:27,320
there's some volleyballs will be
over here. 

276
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,000
But like, once you know what's 
in the dungeon, it's in a real 

277
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:31,800
space. 
You don't have to prep ever 

278
00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,600
again, You just have to front 
load that work. 

279
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:38,280
So that's what the tarot cards 
were doing in that section for 

280
00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,400
me, right? 
Like it was letting you kind of 

281
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:49,960
get that work out of the way and
like think through what a fun 

282
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:51,720
dungeon looks like. 
But I mean, they're like, 

283
00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:52,960
they're used in all sorts of 
things. 

284
00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,120
Every mechanic has the tarot 
cards. 

285
00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:57,520
Integrated to them in some way 
because there's no other 

286
00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:01,760
randomizer on the table. 
I like that you really like 

287
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,120
Drive Home that uses randomizer 
all the way through even to like

288
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,160
beyond just play. 
But like prep itself, I was 

289
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:14,640
reading through the you know, 
the Building, the Mega Dungeon 

290
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:19,200
or Dungeon seeds and I really 
enjoyed like the concept in in 

291
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,120
your approach to this like 
Somatic and like. 

292
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,960
Use space. 
It's like space that has a logic

293
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,400
in turn way to it. 
I really appreciate it all the 

294
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:30,560
way through. 
It was cool to see. 

295
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:36,960
Yeah, cheers. 
I I think that a blank page when

296
00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,160
you're prepping for a game is is
very intimidating. 

297
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:46,320
If you have a book that has some
prompts, some randomizers like 

298
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,920
some of my my best work has as a
GM I think. 

299
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,000
My most interesting challenges 
Dungeons encounters have been 

300
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:58,840
because I had a random table 
that I committed to using I I 

301
00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,440
like this table, this is good. 
And then like a something that I

302
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:06,560
wouldn't have come up with my 
myself came out of those results

303
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,800
and I'm like well, how did how 
does this work? 

304
00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:13,680
And the answer of like. 
Like fighting through my initial

305
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:15,119
like, wait, I don't, I don't get
it. 

306
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,760
The answer when I fought through
that is better than the stuff I 

307
00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:19,520
could have come up myself. 
So that's what I wanted to 

308
00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,200
provide. 
You know provide would be GM's 

309
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:28,319
and players like and you know 
not all tables that you see for 

310
00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:31,840
RPGs on the Internet are 
particularly interesting. 

311
00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:37,480
You know, 1D20 dungeon dressings
and it's like table chair 

312
00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,040
handle. 
Box Sack, Brown sack. 

313
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:44,520
Like those things are are are 
you know a dime a dozen and 

314
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,160
probably creative exercises to 
like kind of like bang out but 

315
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,480
not very useful to me at the 
table. 

316
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,160
So getting some random tables 
out there that are interesting 

317
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,000
and generate cool results and 
are actually fun to like play 

318
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,400
with after they put them all 
together is was important to. 

319
00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:04,200
Me do you see like so Maybe this
might be a two-part question. 

320
00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:06,560
First off, do you think about 
people? 

321
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:10,280
Themselves releasing like third 
party content for this and Part 

322
00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:11,880
2, like where do you see it 
sliding in? 

323
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,440
Because I could definitely see 
people making their own like 

324
00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,840
Dungeon Seeds book that has 
their own like generation stuff.

325
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:26,040
Yeah, the first page of the end 
papers is a big bold text that 

326
00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:31,360
says except for the fact, except
for the art, which I don't have 

327
00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:35,200
the rights to reprint. 
Please read. 

328
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:37,680
Purpose and use everything in 
this book. 

329
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,480
Print it at Kinko's. 
You know, make copies for your 

330
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,760
friends. 
Unless you are like just selling

331
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:47,440
it on the street corner like AI 
mean. 

332
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,520
Even then how mad could I be 
right? 

333
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,040
If you were just like printing 
new copies and like selling them

334
00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,280
on the street corner like the 
like the pirate DVD guys, how 

335
00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:57,920
mad would I be if someone is 
actually doing that to my game? 

336
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,240
Please use the game however you 
want. 

337
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,880
Please put out third party 
content and you know once the 

338
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:04,800
game is out, you know something 
that I'm trying to generate 

339
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:06,600
right now. 
While the game is going through 

340
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,600
fulfilment our tools to do that,
I want to I want to make this as

341
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,840
easy as possible. 
I want to talk to you about it 

342
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,840
if you're interested in it. 
I want to like play test it with

343
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:18,720
you. 
I want to edit it for you. 

344
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:23,680
I want to give you an Indesign 
file with all the styles set up 

345
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,640
so that you can like just plop 
your content in and and publish 

346
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:28,640
it. 
And I want you to make as much 

347
00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:30,400
money or as little money, 
whatever you feel comfortable 

348
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,720
with. 
I'd I'd love to play this game 

349
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:34,280
with other people. 
That'd be really, really cool 

350
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:35,240
to. 
Me. 

351
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:36,600
Very cool. 
Yeah. 

352
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,280
It's funny cuz on I think at 
least two. 

353
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,440
Is it three Of the four, I think
at least two of the no, three. 

354
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,120
Of the four. 
The beginning part literally 

355
00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:48,920
says copyright is a joke, Like 
permission is granted to do 

356
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,280
whatever. 
It's like, yeah, stealing all 

357
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:52,760
our shit. 
Anyway, so. 

358
00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:59,160
I mean, I came out of this. 
Like I said, the OSR movement in

359
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,240
the blogs were just like the 
most powerful ideas I've ever 

360
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,080
seen getting passed around and 
getting. 

361
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,640
Better for it, and if if I could
possibly contribute to that, 

362
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:13,520
that would be awesome. 
Yeah, it's like I said, I mean, 

363
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,360
just the OK, so question. 
My brain almost went in a 

364
00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:18,640
different direction. 
I don't want it to. 

365
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:23,120
Why His Majesty the worm? 
Like, where did that come from? 

366
00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,440
Yeah, it's an illusion. 
It's a literary illusion. 

367
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:31,160
There's a Talib called vino book
called The Castle Lacrosse 

368
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:36,040
Destinies. 
And in that book you know the 

369
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:40,120
the premise of the book that 
there's these pilgrims traveling

370
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:42,920
through a wood kind of like on 
the Canterbury Tales maybe. 

371
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:44,920
And they find that they can't 
speak. 

372
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,800
So they take a tarot deck and 
they tell each other stories, 

373
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,680
their back stories by laying out
the cards in these certain 

374
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,240
patterns because you know the 
game has tarot cards. 

375
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,880
I thought it was a kind of an 
apt illusion and the there's a 

376
00:20:56,120 --> 00:21:00,160
it's from a quote from there 
where the king is being led by 

377
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,080
his gesture into a the graveyard
and the gesture points towards 

378
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,640
an empty grave and says here Her
Majesty reigns greater than 

379
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,280
yours, His Majesty the worm. 
And it's not. 

380
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:12,720
I thought it was so evocative 
and cool. 

381
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,360
I pulled it out immediately and 
put it on, you know, my Word 

382
00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:20,840
document. 
Yeah, no, it really is it There 

383
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,520
it's. 
It's a title that you feel has 

384
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,520
so much more in it than just 4 
words. 

385
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,800
Like every time I've seen it I'm
like what is this? 

386
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,120
But it feels so I don't know, 
like almost esoteric or 

387
00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:35,560
something. 
There's some some like medieval 

388
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,320
aspect to it that just. 
I don't know it it it it's 

389
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,960
definitely. 
Intriguing. 

390
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,840
And like you said, it's very 
evocative and it's a great title

391
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:50,240
and the logo is great as well. 
It's just all around just a good

392
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:51,680
job. 
I don't even know what that's to

393
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,560
say. 
Sometimes it's just so good. 

394
00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,240
Thanks. 
I mean, again, I can only take 

395
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,520
credit for so much. 
I think that a lot of the design

396
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:05,120
work Pete Borlis, my graphic 
designer, did to make this thing

397
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:08,600
look good. 
The logo itself is a piece of 

398
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,560
public domain art. 
It's in the the front's piece of

399
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:19,000
John Bauer was a turn of the 
last century Norwegian painter. 

400
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,280
And in the front's piece of his 
book that I have, he has this 

401
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,680
little like worm logo. 
And I I fell in love with it as 

402
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:27,600
soon as I saw it, kind of the 
same way that I fell in love 

403
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,080
with that. 
The title from the Calvino book.

404
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,320
I just pulled it out and I was 
like this. 

405
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:39,680
Is this is worth keeping? 
So as far as, I mean, like I 

406
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,400
said, there's so much of all 
four of these appendixes that 

407
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,200
are out right now. 
The appendices that are out 

408
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:49,960
right now are, I don't say roll,
they're tables or lists or just 

409
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:50,880
like a lot. 
It is. 

410
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:55,400
That is a lot of very creative, 
very good writing and is that 

411
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,520
what like has taken a lot of the
bulk of the seven years or like 

412
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,120
what's your process for sitting 
down and being like, I need to 

413
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:04,160
come up with these? 
Like, crazy awesome. 

414
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:08,880
Like Maleficent of the waist. 
Because, like, my brain goes, 

415
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,920
all right, I need to sit down 
and write dark stuff for my dark

416
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:11,480
thing. 
You know what? 

417
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,200
Blood. 
OK, so I'm stuck now. 

418
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:15,400
You know what I mean? 
Like what? 

419
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,480
Like, do you just, like, read a 
lot of stuff and and you're just

420
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:19,720
like, oh, that's cool, let me 
take that? 

421
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,240
Or do you just sit down and 
like, try to get the mindset or 

422
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,320
like, you know, what's what's 
the process for coming up with? 

423
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,720
I mean, because if the book is 
as big as you say it is, these 

424
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:29,880
appendixes are scratching the 
surface of it and there's still 

425
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,840
so much in them. 
Yeah, great question. 

426
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,600
So, you know, one I'll just say 
upfront, yeah, I think reading 

427
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:44,480
and regurgitating is all art is.
But my process for like writing 

428
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:50,880
this stuff was I wrote a vast 
bulk of it at AI, started the 

429
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,360
book when I was at a job that I 
was bored at. 

430
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:54,880
And I just wrote like all day 
every day. 

431
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:56,400
I was like, well, nothing else 
to do. 

432
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,200
I have a word processor and free
time. 

433
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:05,000
And then there was a, you know, 
there's a question. 

434
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,120
I was like how do I get stuff 
out of my head and onto paper in

435
00:24:08,120 --> 00:24:10,280
a way that somebody else besides
me and my friends can use. 

436
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,680
So trying to like think through 
that, right? 

437
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:18,160
Like, what are the things that I
do at the table that are just, 

438
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,240
you know, the assumptions that I
have and how do I make those 

439
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:26,720
into like kind of like knowns 
and raise those as subject 

440
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:32,640
matter to be talked about, 
whether they're, you know, how 

441
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,760
sorcery should interact with the
world or how you build a dungeon

442
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,880
or whatever. 
And I tried to like think 

443
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:39,560
through that and put it onto 
paper. 

444
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,480
So I had just like, you know, 
the My Notes document was just 

445
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:48,800
like a bunch of kind of 
unrelated essays about how I run

446
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,680
games and and how you should run
games if you wanted to run them 

447
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,360
like me. 
I don't know if you do, but if 

448
00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:58,880
you did, and then I turned all 
of that over to my editor, 

449
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,800
another person that I think 
deserves a lot of credit, Melody

450
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,360
Watson. 
She did a fantastic job. 

451
00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:08,040
And, you know, as somebody that 
wasn't in my head, she really 

452
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,120
helped me figure out, like, OK, 
this came out of nowhere for me.

453
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:12,360
I didn't. 
I had. 

454
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:13,960
I got to the end of it and now I
get it. 

455
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,680
But like, we need to introduce 
these things in a different way.

456
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:22,800
These are unrelated essays. 
So that was, you know, the hard 

457
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,520
work of taking all that stuff 
and putting it into a format 

458
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,320
that is digestible, easy to 
search, easy to understand, 

459
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,560
what's all in it, where you want
to go and how do you get there. 

460
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,720
But it was really important to 
me to put out a full game, and I

461
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:37,920
think you can have a full game 
on an index card. 

462
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,560
I think you can have a full game
on A1 page PDF. 

463
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,240
But if you if I'm, if I'm 
selling like the snake oil, 

464
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:50,480
right, that mega dungeons are 
fun and that's a hard sell. 

465
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,080
I think a lot of people have 
bounced off of them. 

466
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,000
I think some people have had bad
experiences. 

467
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,120
If I'm going to sell that steak 
oil, I need to like really put 

468
00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:02,200
out everything that you need to 
do it. 

469
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:03,520
So you know you could have had 
this. 

470
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,440
And I in my first days of 
writing this, I really thought 

471
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,160
this was going to be multi 
books, kind of bind them 

472
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,560
together, something together in 
a box set, but the IT was 

473
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:18,960
practically it was unfeasible 
for like printing reasons. 

474
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,560
That was like $200.00 and I 
didn't want to make an 

475
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,800
unachievable book. 
So by binding them all together,

476
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:27,920
it's really like multiple books,
right? 

477
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:33,600
The GM's book, the players book,
a sample adventure, Subs like 

478
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,680
magical subsystems that you can 
play with a bestiary, everything

479
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:43,040
that you would want from a kind 
of like robust system. 

480
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,480
And it was just the the lowest 
price point that I could sell it

481
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,280
to you for was if I put them all
into the same book. 

482
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:54,200
We appreciate that, honestly. 
Yeah, very, very humane of you. 

483
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:56,400
Very nicely. 
I would have bought it 

484
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,480
regardless, but like, yeah. 
I would have been regardless, 

485
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,160
but I I, you know, I appreciate 
it then. 

486
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:09,280
So playing the game, I know you 
just said you're talking about 

487
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,680
snake oil and mega dungeons and 
stuff like what? 

488
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,200
So I I'm definitely one of those
people that have bounced off 

489
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,600
mega dungeons. 
I have, I have some, they're 

490
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,000
they're great to read. 
But as far as like playing in 

491
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,480
the mega dungeon, like what 
about it? 

492
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:28,160
It like makes you want to play 
that game and like you know, you

493
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,280
talked already about, like 
giving people the tool so they 

494
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,000
can play it as well. 
But like what? 

495
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:34,800
What is the impetus to make 
that? 

496
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,520
The style of this whole game? 
Yeah, Mega Dungeons were my 

497
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:43,480
white Whale forever. 
You know, I think, I think my 

498
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:48,480
first mega dungeon experience, 
well, I had a lot of campaigns 

499
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,120
that were like, oh cool, this is
under Mountain and the DM has 

500
00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:55,720
like 500 maps and I know that 
there's 1000 rooms. 

501
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:57,760
I can see them. 
And the campaign lasted one 

502
00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,840
session and we quit. 
I mean, so many like so many 

503
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,000
games. 
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's the 

504
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,160
real dragon to slay is 
scheduling conflict. 

505
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,040
But Mega Dungeons is why White 
Whale Forever. 

506
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:16,120
It was like the the core of the 
of the fantasy role-playing 

507
00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:19,000
experience that I like, had this
vision about ever since I 

508
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,720
started playing when I was 12. 
And it is. 

509
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,200
It's difficult to pull off, but 
there's something really 

510
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,840
captivating there about that. 
Like in the themes of just this,

511
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,200
you know, in the OSR they, they 
call it this mythic underworld, 

512
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:40,800
this space that is magical and 
nimbical to human life, you 

513
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,360
know, mythological. 
There's something, there's a 

514
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,480
building that that I just like. 
I don't know why I like the 

515
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,520
color green, I don't know why I 
like mega dungeons. 

516
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,320
But when it comes to playing 
them there, there's something 

517
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,840
that is I think, really fun 
there. 

518
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:58,760
And it's there's persistence in 
the gaming world that comes 

519
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:03,400
about going back to the same 
place and having an adventure 

520
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,440
location that is big enough, 
robust enough that can it can't 

521
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,440
withstand this. 
You know, it's not a dungeon 

522
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,360
that you clear after a couple 
sessions and then leave and 

523
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,240
never think about it again. 
It's a dungeon that you. 

524
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,040
OK, I know what it is. 
If you guys played Metroidvania 

525
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:21,760
games where you are. 
Yeah. 

526
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,400
Yeah. 
And you, like, you know the 

527
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:29,320
you're exploring and you see a 
door on a ledge and you don't 

528
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,200
have adult, you don't have a way
to get up there and you're like,

529
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:32,440
I'm going to have to come back. 
You haven't. 

530
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:33,720
You haven't, unlike double jump 
yet. 

531
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,960
So you have to go back to the 
other place totally. 

532
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,280
And before a number of other 
things, there's like, so a 

533
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,560
megadungeon is a space where you
aren't just going through, 

534
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,920
kicking down doors and and 
leaving forever. 

535
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:49,560
You're going through and you're 
like, huh, I don't know what to 

536
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,560
do about this door yet. 
And that's OK because there's a 

537
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,680
million doors this other way. 
And then, you know, a couple 

538
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,000
sessions later, you're like, 
wait a minute, I've seen this 

539
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,920
symbol before and you have this 
aha moment and you're like, OK, 

540
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,920
well, this symbol can be opened 
by this key that we got, you 

541
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,560
know, and I haven't seen it for 
five sessions five months. 

542
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,440
And like, let's go backtrack. 
And there's like these aha 

543
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,600
moments where you're like 
uncovering new things to the 

544
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,320
dungeon and it changes because 
of the things you did. 

545
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:22,480
You started the fire that, like,
swept through rooms 131 through 

546
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,800
163. 
And now those are like charred 

547
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,080
husk. 
And you defeated the Lich from 

548
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:30,880
level one. 
And now level one is safe. 

549
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,840
And you can like, start a little
bit lower next time. 

550
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,320
And like, you see these people 
that have played with me for a 

551
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,320
couple years and they, they have
this memory, they have these 

552
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,000
memories from play. 
And new players come in and 

553
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,480
they're like, OK, when we're 
going through this room, the 

554
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,040
thing that you're going to have 
to remember is like, we can't, 

555
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,680
we can't speak out loud there 
because there's bats with sonar 

556
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,920
and they can hear you. 
But like, if you're totally 

557
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:55,840
silent and they're like, Oh my 
gosh, I can't. 

558
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,800
And like, there's these, like, 
generations of players that have

559
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,880
learned and explored and 
conquered this dungeon. 

560
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,400
I think that is so satisfying, 
both as a player and AGM. 

561
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,400
It really, really is is 
gratifying to watch these things

562
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,720
happen, to this, to this thing 
that I just made. 

563
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,200
Like, you know, over the course 
of a couple weeks of like, 

564
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,080
writing down ideas and stealing 
dungeons that I liked and 

565
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:19,960
cobbling them together with 
Scotch tape. 

566
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:22,880
Man, I'm trying to complete your
table. 

567
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:29,440
Come on over, man. 
Yeah I'll just fly over well you

568
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,000
know if you guys want to we I 
would be more than happy on the 

569
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,040
podcaster off to you know run 
some you know like a one shot. 

570
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,440
Oh yeah, Yeah. 
That's hard games here. 

571
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,360
Yeah, absolutely. 
No, here's the thing, I'm very 

572
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,320
excited to talk with you about 
this. 

573
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,320
But I can tell you right now, 
like the week this game comes 

574
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,880
out, unless we can somehow get 
it before, is the week that 

575
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,520
we're going to be reviewing it 
here on the stream. 

576
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,360
So I would also love to play it 
at some point. 

577
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,240
That would be fantastic. 
But that is, that is what's 

578
00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:01,080
going to be happening here. 
Couple of questions, one in chat

579
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,440
also asked like what is your 
favorite tarot deck and I think 

580
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,520
this is back from our tarot 
conversation, but I want to make

581
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:07,440
sure I get to that. 
Do you have, are you a right 

582
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,160
away guy or do you have just 
like a random deck that you like

583
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,120
or what? 
Yeah, great question. 

584
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:16,920
I so I have lots of decks at 
this point just because I, you 

585
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,960
know, I didn't say I'm going to 
ride a terror game because I 

586
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,920
didn't like the tarot. 
So I have a couple different 

587
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,280
tarot decks. 
I think they're interesting and 

588
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,720
kind of cool to look at in terms
of like, beauty. 

589
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,200
I'm going to look up the guy's 
name so I don't dungeon. 

590
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,360
There was a game I bought called
Dungeon Solitaire and it's 

591
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:39,920
played with a by Matthew Lowe's.
It's a it is a solo game and you

592
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,480
you play with the Tarot deck. 
I think it is a very gorgeous 

593
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,800
deck. 
When I'm playing at the table, I

594
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,400
use a Rider Waite deck because I
am familiar enough with it that 

595
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,040
I can recognize the cards at a 
distance. 

596
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:54,840
So there is like a little bit of
a learning curve. 

597
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,720
I think Taro, if you, you know, 
aren't super familiar with it 

598
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,680
and you're just getting started 
because you think the game 

599
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,760
sounds interesting. 
And I have had some players at 

600
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,840
my table, but I called on what, 
what is this one? 

601
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,080
And like, oh, that's the page. 
And like, you know, it just 

602
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,040
takes like a second, right? 
Like it's not hard, but like 

603
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,120
there's like a like a half 
second mismatch between like 

604
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,080
seeing the thing and then being 
like, got it. 

605
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:18,960
And because I'm so familiar with
the Ryder weight deck, I can 

606
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,000
look at it and just somebody 
pulls a card from the other 

607
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,640
side, shows it to me. 
I don't have to like and you 

608
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,400
know, as evidenced by my 
glasses, I don't see 

609
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,680
particularly well. 
So like, you know, I can. 

610
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,920
I can visualize the cards 
really, really easily. 

611
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,280
Got you. 
And then the other question 

612
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,920
that's gonna end up being like a
multi part question is so the 

613
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:42,960
middle question to get back to 
the first question cuz this is 

614
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,160
the way my brain works, like you
talked about this mega dungeon, 

615
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,960
all these people going with it 
forever, like what makes them 

616
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,720
want to keep going? 
And then I wrote that question 

617
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:52,760
down and then put an arrow back 
to another question that was 

618
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:59,920
like, OK, so then what's the in 
the fallos, the tarot appendix 

619
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:05,280
you say in there that? 
His Majesty the Worm has an anti

620
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,520
Canon setting so the city 
creation rules raise more 

621
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,040
questions than the answer. 
So the setting itself is is anti

622
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,280
Canon but is there a general 
lore to the world? 

623
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,840
Like is there like specific set 
of gods, is the underworld the 

624
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,280
same and et cetera et cetera. 
Like what's the general like 

625
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,719
just of of the game's kind of 
lore And then? 

626
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,639
With that, if there's this giant
mega dungeon, what keeps people 

627
00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:33,520
wanting to go into this dungeon 
as opposed to just being like, 

628
00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:36,360
never mind, that seems terrible,
like I lost my ear. 

629
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:37,600
I'm going to go home now, you 
know. 

630
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,600
All right, keep me honest. 
I don't want to drop one of 

631
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,880
those. 
The second questions will be 

632
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,560
related. 
But the first one, there's a 

633
00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:47,440
there's, I think, a simple 
answer. 

634
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,520
Have you ever like gone to a 
game and you know, the the GM 

635
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,080
lays these things out and the 
players brought their little 

636
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,239
player sheet with them and 
they're like, well, my 

637
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,360
characters want to do that. 
My character likes this stuff 

638
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,920
and I don't want to do the plot.
I think that sucks. 

639
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,440
And I mean, I think that I 
generally play with players that

640
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,640
are like a little bit better 
than that, But I've seen it. 

641
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:12,400
You know the course of my life 
in His Majesty, Worm, everybody,

642
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,640
every player character, every 
adventurer has a reason that 

643
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,200
they want to go to the mega 
dungeon, that they define 

644
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,840
character creation. 
And no, normal people don't want

645
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:24,520
to go into the dungeon. 
It's bad. 

646
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,280
They're a monster down there and
like just winning treasure, man.

647
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,600
Let me tell you what, there are 
easier ways to get treasure in 

648
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:37,320
the world than like braving 
traps and and Fast forward aging

649
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,640
beams and medusas and stuff. 
You know, get a farm buddy. 

650
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,320
But there's something in the in 
the mega dungeon that your 

651
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,640
character wants and you and the 
GM talk about it and then the GM

652
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,880
puts it there, which tell you 
what makes it easy for the GM. 

653
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,040
So like when the players are 
like coming up with their 

654
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,600
characters, like, well, my 
brother was turned to stone by a

655
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,000
Medusa. 
I have to go find a Medusa to 

656
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,760
get their blood to like, smear 
my brother, to unpetrify him. 

657
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,720
I'm like, that's dope. 
Room 101 now has a Medusa. 

658
00:36:08,720 --> 00:36:12,800
It makes my job a lot easier. 
And so there's there's I think 

659
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,160
there's it's more fun. 
His Majesty the Worm shies away 

660
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,440
from like collab a lot of 
collaborative like world 

661
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:21,560
building. 
When I go into rude One O 1 and 

662
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:22,680
the players like I kicked down 
the door. 

663
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,600
I'm not I don't say what do you 
think is back there which I 

664
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,720
think is a very valid approach 
in some games but it's not this 

665
00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:32,000
game. 
I think that the the Mega 

666
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,320
dungeon shines when there. 
I know there's something behind 

667
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,720
that door and I know what would 
happen if you knocked on it and 

668
00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:40,080
I know what would happen if you 
poured water under the door and 

669
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,760
I know what would happen if you 
would left it alone and the 

670
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,600
players don't. 
I think that's I think that's 

671
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,200
fun the the joy of discovery 
from Metroid Vanius. 

672
00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:52,160
But I do think it is really cool
when players come up with their 

673
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,680
ideas for why they're going down
there and once their player 

674
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:56,600
achieves their quest they 
retire. 

675
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,920
Unless there's another super 
compelling quest that has like 

676
00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:02,640
captured their attention, 
another brother fell down a well

677
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,880
or whatever. 
But like that collaborative 

678
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,120
nature keeps the game 
interesting for me and and and 

679
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,440
gets them into the dungeon 
without complaining, you know? 

680
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,120
Well you know one of the tag 
lines you have on this is that 

681
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,120
it's a new school game with old 
school sensibilities and it kind

682
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,520
of sounds like and maybe I'm 
completely off base but the the 

683
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,400
concepts of kind of the the OSR 
were like the some of them at 

684
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:30,400
least were like the world exists
and it is it is almost as as as 

685
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,920
an Eldridge being. 
It does not care that you exist.

686
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,080
It exists and it moves, even 
without you. 

687
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,440
You are just choose and you 
don't make a story. 

688
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,040
The players make us their own 
story through their actions in 

689
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,720
the way they can tell that and 
everything and then which I 

690
00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:46,760
really, I love that it's more of
like a referee. 

691
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,800
You're just like this exists 
here and this is what's 

692
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,240
happening. 
You are you're finding it. 

693
00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:53,480
I'm not making it up for you. 
But with this kind of like newer

694
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,280
school like Tara based 
procedures and various 

695
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,600
procedures versus just like a 
you know a pretty streamlined 

696
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:01,720
set of rules or whatever that's 
a really. 

697
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:04,840
I really like that mash up a 
lot. 

698
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,760
Like it's really interesting to 
have these completely different 

699
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,400
system but to keep those 
sensibilities because a lot of 

700
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,240
people that's the sensibilities 
that they like. 

701
00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:15,720
There are people that you know 
that like 5E and like you know 

702
00:38:15,720 --> 00:38:18,520
being the hero and winning every
game and never feeling danger 

703
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,560
and you know and I just I 
personally that's not I'm not a 

704
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:23,760
fan of that. 
So it's really I'm excited that 

705
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,760
you know that is how this game 
works that it's more of it all 

706
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:28,720
exists and you are just coming 
upon it. 

707
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:29,880
You know, it's not built for 
you. 

708
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:32,120
Oh God, it's kind of you to say 
that. 

709
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,560
That's a nice mix because I I 
wonder if I haven't shot myself 

710
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,280
in the foot, right? 
Like it's so focused on dungeon 

711
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,440
crawling and has all these. 
I mean, I think if you have any 

712
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:45,120
of the OSR foundational texts 
like the Principia Apocrypha or 

713
00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:48,960
I'm dropping the name of it 
right now. 

714
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:53,880
But you know all those All the 
advice there is is part of His 

715
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,880
Majesty Worm in in its blood, in
its CNA, and the fact that I 

716
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,240
just don't have that OSR 
compatible system that everybody

717
00:39:00,240 --> 00:39:03,000
is used to and has their 
favorite and they can mix and 

718
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:04,640
match. 
But it's a new system and it's 

719
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,360
weird Internet. 
You have to buy a tarot deck. 

720
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:11,320
It's like it's too OSR for 5E 
players and too much of A new 

721
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,520
game for OSR players. 
It's the worst of all worlds 

722
00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:16,840
loved by nobody. 
One man's, one man's folly, you 

723
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,840
know. 
I think, I think you'll be fine.

724
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:24,440
I think, I think that's where 
we're at in 2023 is the OSR will

725
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,760
never die. 
But I definitely think there's 

726
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:28,320
plenty of people that are 
looking for things that are a 

727
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,840
little bit different but can 
still feel familiar. 

728
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,960
And I think that's what this, at
least from what I've read, feels

729
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:35,720
like. 
So I I I think you're, I think 

730
00:39:35,720 --> 00:39:37,120
you're threatening it all just 
fine. 

731
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,000
Not Cheers. 
What was your what was your 

732
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:40,440
other question you had? 
Another question you had. 

733
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,560
I so I write them down because 
I'm never going to remember. 

734
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,400
So basically just the general 
law of the world. 

735
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,640
You said that like they're they 
people have a reason to go in 

736
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:53,160
but like. 
Who, who are they and like what?

737
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,120
What could be like a reason for 
that? 

738
00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:00,640
Like are they escaping the 
tyrant King or or and and where 

739
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,280
they going? 
Yeah, I mean, so in the in my 

740
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,000
home games and, and this is 
captured in the book, you know, 

741
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,400
I say stuff like this in in 
little paragraphs here and 

742
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,440
there. 
I think I could have made a 

743
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,400
generic game. 
I think I could have, you know, 

744
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,120
stripped a lot of the lore that 
exists out of this. 

745
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,400
And I don't think the game would
have been as interesting to read

746
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,280
or to look at if I hadn't kind 
of been running this and just 

747
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,480
put the stuff that I do into it 
and then put some paragraphs 

748
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,200
right afterwards. 
Like, oh, you can ignore me if 

749
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:29,840
you want to, you know, this is 
just what I do. 

750
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,400
But, like, I think that it would
be more interesting if you did 

751
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,840
what you wanted to do. 
And some of my players have 

752
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,560
been, like, kind enough to 
include me in their games when 

753
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:41,920
they were running it too. 
And they've had like these 

754
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,720
science fantasy worlds and, you 
know, this world where everybody

755
00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:48,640
was dead and in hell. 
So very different stuff than my 

756
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:50,600
games. 
So I, you know, stand by what I 

757
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,920
said that it's more interesting 
if you come up with the stuff 

758
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:53,960
yourself. 
But like in the games that I 

759
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,400
run, and this is reflected in a 
lot of the kind of like 

760
00:40:57,240 --> 00:41:03,200
italicized text near a picture 
that there's like the city, it 

761
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,200
has Constantinople vibes and you
can create it randomly if you 

762
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,160
want to using the rules of the 
book. 

763
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,160
But there's the city. 
It's the it's the city, the set 

764
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:12,360
at the center of the classic 
world. 

765
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:19,480
All the the races and and 
civilizations in this world have

766
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,600
like, you know, sprung up and 
died and like had their ruins 

767
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:27,040
subsumed by the next terrible 
barbarian that becomes glorious 

768
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,720
civilization as they get to move
into the center of the world. 

769
00:41:30,720 --> 00:41:33,360
And so, you know, it has this 
place of history and five years 

770
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:39,480
ago a mega dungeon underworld 
opened underneath it and exactly

771
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,400
what that is and exactly what 
the city's constituents are. 

772
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,920
I think that there are some 
tables there to encourage you to

773
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,760
come up with that answer, but I 
I suspect nobody is going to 

774
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:51,720
have exactly the right 
configuration that was mine. 

775
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,600
But that's the gimmick. 
You know the the plot point is 

776
00:41:55,080 --> 00:42:01,400
under the main city there is 
literal hell and nobody does 

777
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,600
want to go into it. 
But there is magic there in a 

778
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,440
way that doesn't exist in the 
overworld. 

779
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,800
So if you and and so if you want
something that is magical, if 

780
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:15,360
you want to become immortal, if 
you want to cure your brother, 

781
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,320
if you want to slay the elder 
vampire and cure vampirism 

782
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,080
throughout the city, you have to
go into the underworld to 

783
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,240
accomplish that. 
To like give you a sense of like

784
00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:32,040
the last quest that we 
accomplished in my main classic 

785
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,560
vanilla to His Majesty the Worm 
during our kind of like the 

786
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,160
finish to finish our play test. 
To give you a sense of what the 

787
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:45,680
quest could be. 
The last quest we did there, one

788
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:51,760
of my players had formed a 
relationship with a dryad that 

789
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,040
was in the first level of the 
mega dungeon. 

790
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:58,880
The in the first level used to 
be this forested level as trees 

791
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,960
grew from the lower levels and 
pushed their way up so that you 

792
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:03,760
were amongst the bowels of the 
trees. 

793
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:08,720
And at some point in the game's 
history, they unleashed a Locust

794
00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:11,040
swarm that was in like a 
sarcophagus. 

795
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,480
And then then like over and over
I kept saying like, well, the 

796
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,760
locust worms going around eating
everything and they're like, 

797
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:18,920
Dang, that sounds bad, Somebody 
should do something about that 

798
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,880
and they'd go do something else.
And eventually the the entire 

799
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:26,360
first level is just denuded and 
the locust lich came to rule 

800
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:30,520
there. 
And so her triad girlfriend, you

801
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,640
know, couldn't survive because 
everything was being destroyed 

802
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:34,840
by these locusts, by the locust 
lich. 

803
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:40,920
So her quest was to marry this 
triad that she had met, and she 

804
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:47,120
defeated the Locust Lynch and 
got a magic item to carve her 

805
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:52,440
girlfriend's tree into the what 
do you, what do you call the 

806
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:53,600
statue that's on in front of a 
boat? 

807
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,800
What do you call that kind? 
Of no, I know you're talking. 

808
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,480
About like a bow head or 
something. 

809
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:00,760
I don't even know what I want to
say. 

810
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,920
Mast head, but that's not right.
But she carved her girlfriend's 

811
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,520
tree into her like head 
figurehead to pirate ship 

812
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,880
figurehead, and like retired 
from adventuring life. 

813
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,760
Her dryad girlfriend got to come
with her to the service and she 

814
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,160
became the pirate queen. 
Like, those are the stories I 

815
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,120
want to be involved with, right?
Like, I think that stuff's neat.

816
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:24,320
I want people to rescue Dryad 
Maidens from Locust Liches. 

817
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:30,760
Yeah, yeah, that's pretty cool. 
Yeah, I'll take that game. 

818
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,880
And you said that there's almost
like a generational aspect to 

819
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,480
the dungeon. 
So as you bring new characters 

820
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:45,720
in, is it just a series of some 
stay, some go and they just and 

821
00:44:45,720 --> 00:44:49,320
they just learn as they go how 
many in the game you've had at 

822
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,360
home? 
Like, not characters, but like 

823
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,400
different players. 
Have you actually brought in 

824
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:55,000
that have like experienced the 
dungeon? 

825
00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:03,560
You know, I played for seven 
years, so a lot of players I 

826
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:07,640
want. 
My best friend was played with 

827
00:45:07,720 --> 00:45:11,120
us when we first started. 
He had his first child. 

828
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,480
He said, hey guys, I have a kid,
I can't come to game every week 

829
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:20,000
and I said OK and then his child
grew up old enough that he was 

830
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:21,960
like, all right, I can join game
again. 

831
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,320
Like we played for so long that 
like I've had people get 

832
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:30,320
children, you know into the 
world and and into the through 

833
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:32,880
the toddler stage and start 
school before like we finished. 

834
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,480
So you know I don't know 40 
players maybe across the table 

835
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,320
and like sometimes just for once
you know somebody would come in 

836
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:41,800
and be like, hey this game isn't
for me, but Congrats. 

837
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:43,960
And I was like God, great having
you. 

838
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:48,640
Some people came in and moved 
away and you know I've just had 

839
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:54,160
a lot of lot of fun just trying 
to loop in as many people in my 

840
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,920
tri-county area until like 
trying this thing. 

841
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,200
It's. 
Awesome. 

842
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:01,760
That honestly sounds like a 
dream. 

843
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,600
A dream table to have is just 
this this thing. 

844
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,400
And how in that is the dungeon 
built? 

845
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,080
Like it's all done, like it's 
all there and it's still going 

846
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:12,760
like, did you do it like from 
the beginning? 

847
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,680
And you're just like I still 
have like 300 rooms for you 

848
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,240
guys. 
It's just been there forever and

849
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:22,480
they're still trying to get 
through it or yeah, yes, I think

850
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:28,000
like I said I think the the 
gameplay really shines when 

851
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:34,480
there is pre built content that 
the players don't know and the 

852
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,760
GM does know. 
And I think that that sounds 

853
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:42,840
intimidating, but actually isn't
that hard because I think 

854
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:44,920
there's procedures. 
Well, two things. 

855
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,800
One, I think that you can do 
what I did and steal other 

856
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,880
dungeons that you like. 
There are a lot of creative 

857
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,720
people out there, and the 
dungeon that I ran for years was

858
00:46:56,720 --> 00:46:59,400
just like nine of them in a 
trench coat, right, Like just 

859
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,720
stacked on top. 
Of each other shoulders. 

860
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,080
Yeah, absolutely. 
I think you can do that, and I 

861
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,680
think you should because I, my 
friends, put out dungeons that 

862
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:08,680
are cool and I think she'd buy 
them. 

863
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,320
But two, I think that there's 
like some procedures and some 

864
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:18,120
questions that you can ask and 
some some random tables that I 

865
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:22,000
tried to like make to help you 
to like get you through some 

866
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:23,200
things. 
Like really, it's just like 

867
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,480
answering the same sort of 
things, like in a discreet way, 

868
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:29,800
over and over and over, right, 
and then connecting the pieces 

869
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,800
together. 
So I mean, it's not one mega 

870
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:39,640
dungeon, It's five dungeons that
are connected in cool ways, 

871
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:40,920
right? 
There's a teleporter from level 

872
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:42,680
1 to level 2. 
There's a river of fire from 

873
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:47,560
level 2 to Level 3 and from 
Level 3 to level 1, there's, you

874
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,880
know, a giant with a fishing 
pole and he's fishing for 

875
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:53,320
something and you can climb up 
his, you know, giant fishing 

876
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,000
line to get back up to the 
surface. 

877
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:59,880
So it's just kind of making 
interesting stuff and then 

878
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:03,080
connecting them all together. 
And if you kind of go step by 

879
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,440
steps, that's the that's my 
premise is it's really not that 

880
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,000
hard. 
It does take a little upfront 

881
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,240
work and I think that work is 
kind of fun. 

882
00:48:10,240 --> 00:48:12,800
Like it. 
I don't know why why my brain is

883
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:17,400
shaped that way, but you know it
it doesn't hurt my feelings to 

884
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:25,000
spend 2 weeks coming up with two
levels of a dungeon for my 

885
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:26,200
players. 
So yeah, you know, over the 

886
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,960
course of the time they almost 
never went there were there were

887
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,520
6 levels in that dungeon. 
I don't know that they ever, 

888
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,920
except for like maybe once by 
accident stepped into level 5 

889
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,160
and level 6 of that dungeon was 
hidden. 

890
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,000
They didn't know it existed. 
It wasn't on their maps. 

891
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:47,040
It was in a hidden door and ran 
a random room and in it dwelt 

892
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,000
His Majesty the worm and His 
Majesty the worm controlled the 

893
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,000
will of souls which controls 
reincarnation and immortality 

894
00:48:53,240 --> 00:48:56,640
throughout my entire setting. 
And they they found it. 

895
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,960
They were like, Oh my God, this 
is the center of the maze. 

896
00:48:59,960 --> 00:49:03,480
I I can't believe this exists. 
They went through it. 

897
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,680
They got this magic, the worms, 
like, never mind it's not that 

898
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,320
important. 
I will leave forever again and 

899
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:13,000
like just left and that I'm 
perfectly OK with that because 

900
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,600
the look on their faces of like,
hold on has this been here for 

901
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,120
seven years. 
I'm like, yeah, this is where 

902
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,440
the guy lives and they're like, 
Oh my God was like that was that

903
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,360
was worth it to me, right. 
Like that was worth the upfront 

904
00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:25,840
work just for the look on their 
faces. 

905
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,240
Yeah, very cool. 
I'm having a great time with 

906
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:32,280
that. 
Sounds like a blast. 

907
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,000
It was. 
It was fun. 

908
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:40,600
I think a lot of forever GM's 
that we all say it with a sigh, 

909
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:44,600
but sometimes you're a forever 
GM because it's also fun really 

910
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:48,800
figure a way to turn prep into 
their own solo game, and I think

911
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:53,200
that's what really keeps it 
continuing to be fun and seeing.

912
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,280
What you can get people into or 
or the way that people are going

913
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,960
to interact with the things that
you do it's it's it's 

914
00:49:59,960 --> 00:50:02,200
interesting to me That's why I'm
not a huge fan of a lot of 

915
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:06,600
things that are like let's let's
do like our our two two-minute 

916
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,240
prep or whatever or let's you 
know let's make the prep easy. 

917
00:50:09,240 --> 00:50:11,240
Why do you do so much work. 
I'm like because I like the 

918
00:50:11,240 --> 00:50:12,880
work. 
I don't understand the question.

919
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,640
You know there's a reason I do 
it this way. 

920
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:17,120
You know, that's because I want 
to. 

921
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:20,840
You know, if if I'm struggling 
to to oh, I don't have the story

922
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:22,800
made-up for tonight's game. 
Like that's not. 

923
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:25,480
You know, that's kind of the 
antithesis of why I do it. 

924
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:30,840
So exalted funeral, this is 
coming out. 

925
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,200
It's been it's it's funded on it
should be all the appendixes and

926
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,720
everything like that. 
How did that kind of come to be?

927
00:50:35,720 --> 00:50:37,760
Did you reach out to EF? 
Did EF reach out to you? 

928
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:39,680
Like what? 
What kind of, you know, whatever

929
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:41,520
you're allowed to say in other 
contracts and everything like 

930
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:43,600
that. 
What kind of what what got that 

931
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:45,800
bowler ball rolling Because I 
know you're it's not going to 

932
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,040
take Kickstarter it off on it 
through itch like we said 

933
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:50,000
before. 
So what? 

934
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,040
What made you want to do it 
through EF? 

935
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:57,240
Well, like I said, there's a lot
of things that I that I'm doing 

936
00:50:57,240 --> 00:50:58,520
this for fun. 
And there's some things that I 

937
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,720
have no idea how to do. 
I do not know how to talk to. 

938
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:04,280
I do not understand the 
realities of printing. 

939
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:07,040
I've never done it before. 
I need somebody to help me. 

940
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:08,800
I do not have a digital 
storefront. 

941
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,160
I was hoping to ride some of 
these cocktails to glory. 

942
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,240
So yeah, I reached out to it. 
There's all the funeral with 

943
00:51:15,240 --> 00:51:18,680
essentially a complete game. 
And I came to them with like a 

944
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:20,640
little book in my hands. 
I was like, do you guys want to 

945
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:22,680
help me print this? 
And they were kind enough to say

946
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:27,400
yes. 
So they are going to handle and 

947
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,880
are handling even today printing
and distribution. 

948
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,920
That's awesome. 
Very cool. 

949
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:41,120
Do you do you have any like Q 
1/20/24? 

950
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,920
Is that date going to get, like 
narrower and narrower? 

951
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,120
And then we'll have an 
announcement by signing up for 

952
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,840
your mailing list. 
Is that what what the plan is? 

953
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:52,880
Yeah. 
I when I have a firmer date, I 

954
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,440
will let you know. 
But you know something I just 

955
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:57,400
didn't understand when I was 
going through this or like 

956
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,840
really the practical realities 
of printing it is difficult. 

957
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:04,520
It is time consuming. 
It is expensive. 

958
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:06,600
It is. 
And like, you know, we're 

959
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,400
talking about, you know, even 
with the efficiency of scale, 

960
00:52:10,720 --> 00:52:12,240
these things are just kind of 
difficult. 

961
00:52:12,240 --> 00:52:16,800
So when I when I have a crisper 
idea, when the books are ready 

962
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,520
in the warehouse and ready to be
shipped, I would love to tell 

963
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:22,440
you exactly, exactly what day 
is. 

964
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:26,720
And if I if I hazard a guest 
today, I will be a liar. 

965
00:52:26,720 --> 00:52:28,920
So. 
You won. 

966
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,840
You won. 
Yeah, I'll take it. 

967
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:32,640
I'll take it. 
We'll see. 

968
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,160
We'll see how it goes. 
Like I said, I mean I I'm very 

969
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:37,960
excited for this. 
I'm I'm really glad that we got 

970
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:39,880
to have you on to talk about it.
I'm going to continue to keep 

971
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:41,720
reading the appendixes. 
I'm. 

972
00:52:41,720 --> 00:52:45,000
I'm just. 
I'm excited for the game to come

973
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:45,960
out. 
I mean, this is great. 

974
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:47,720
Like I said when when me and 
Hunter were talking about it, I 

975
00:52:47,720 --> 00:52:50,600
shot on the appendixes and he 
was just like, oh, Oh yeah, 

976
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:53,000
though this is really cool. 
And I'm like, yeah, Yep, we 

977
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:55,240
we're this is, this is the thing
that we're going to be doing. 

978
00:52:55,240 --> 00:52:56,720
And he's like, Yep, that's the 
thing that we're going to be 

979
00:52:56,720 --> 00:52:57,640
doing. 
So that's great. 

980
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaking of your mailing list, 
where can people sign up for 

981
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:04,080
that? 
Where can people find the 

982
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:05,480
appendixes that we're talking 
about? 

983
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,440
Where can people find just any 
of your stuff so that they can 

984
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:12,000
support you, continue to to keep
making this cool stuff? 

985
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:17,680
Yeah, I'm on rise up comas in 
most social media. 

986
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:22,880
Rise up comas.blogspot.com has a
bunch of stuff about this game 

987
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:26,720
and other pet projects. 
Rise Up comas dot itch dot IO 

988
00:53:26,720 --> 00:53:30,000
has the appendices. 
Most of them are free or almost 

989
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,040
free. 
You can sign up to my mailing 

990
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:36,280
lists through those methods and 
any of the social media I there 

991
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,480
as rise up comas. 
If you'd like to chat with me, 

992
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:41,320
just abuse me of my heuristic 
notions. 

993
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:43,600
Share cool stuff that you're 
working on about the chat. 

994
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,640
Let's talk about games. 
That's awesome. 

995
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:48,640
Definitely got that. 
Definitely sign up for the 

996
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,520
mailing list because I know that
I bought Dundan seeds and then 

997
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:53,480
sign up for the mailing list and
then sent me Dundan Seeds and I 

998
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:55,640
was like, damn it. 
So definitely sign up for the 

999
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:59,120
mailing list before you before 
you snag the game so you get one

1000
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:02,720
sent to you. 
Listen, seriously, I know we've 

1001
00:54:02,720 --> 00:54:04,080
said it a bunch and we'll 
continue to say it. 

1002
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:05,800
Very excited for this project it
seems. 

1003
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:08,320
Fantastic. 
I can't wait to have this in 

1004
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:11,120
hand and and to to give it a 
good review. 

1005
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,600
Well, to review it and we'll see
what we'll see, what we'll see 

1006
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:14,240
how you like. 
It. 

1007
00:54:14,240 --> 00:54:17,080
Yeah, cool. 
And then and then play it for 

1008
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:19,520
sure. 
But genuinely, seriously, really

1009
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:23,560
appreciate you coming on taking 
the time you know from work and 

1010
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:26,680
everything to to be here. 
I can't thank you guys enough. 

1011
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:28,600
This was a a blast that I really
appreciate. 

1012
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:30,600
Really appreciate everything. 
Thank you so much. 

1013
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:32,880
Great having you on. 
Yeah, great to hear and please 

1014
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:35,200
come back once it comes out and 
we do the review. 

1015
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,720
If you're willing to run some 
games, we will absolutely be 

1016
00:54:38,720 --> 00:54:40,960
willing to play it. 
So we'll have to keep in touch. 

1017
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,200
No, I'm not lying at all. 
Let's, I will. 

1018
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,040
Let's text right after this and 
let's just set up some time. 

1019
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:50,400
Let's just set up an afternoon. 
All right. 

1020
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:53,840
Let's do it again. 
I'm, I'm, I'm beaming now. 

1021
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:57,280
This is this is great. 
So we are the With the Scroll 

1022
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:58,800
podcast. 
This has been Josh with His 

1023
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:01,440
Majesty the worm. 
You can find all of our socials 

1024
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:05,280
at our link tree and all of 
Josh's socials will be in the in

1025
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,520
the notes whether it's on 
podcast or on YouTube. 

1026
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:10,440
So once again, thank you for 
being here and we're not there. 

1027
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:12,120
We will see you another time.