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Hello, and welcome to the 
weekly. 

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Scroll podcast brought to you by
the adventure. 

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Archive, my name is Ryan and I'm
Hunter just Hunter And with us 

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today, we I'm sorry so that 
throws me off more than anything

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you say. 
Is when you actually say your 

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real name - no, I'd still a 
reference to him. 

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Oh, so you know, well, there we 
go. 

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But anyway, with us, we have Max
Lander. 

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How you doing today? 
Max great, yeah, good excited to

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be here. 
Wonderful, it's great to have 

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you, so So who the heck is Max 
Lander like what's up? 

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You might be buying yourself 
people, know you for ya to find 

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yourself entirely to my two 
sentences if you could for, 

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yeah. 
I mean, this contextual, this 

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the, I am the designer of him 
bows of myth and metal. 

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But I also teach game design and
I used to, and still 

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occasionally, I'm a 
photographer, and I have a 

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history and in dirty videos, and
I make all kinds of other 

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interactive art and do. 
We are in are development in the

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daytime. 
So all the things. 

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Many of them, many things, many 
things little bit of everything.

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Yeah. 
So um gosh, where do we even 

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begin? 
I guess less. 

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So we're a game review podcast. 
Yeah, yes. 

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Throughout this obviously, like 
very like jam-packed. 

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Life you've had in all these 
different fields. 

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What point did you get into game
design? 

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Game design is like, I've been a
person who plays games for a 

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long time, I think as everybody 
does. 

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But I game design came to me. 
I want to say like five or six 

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years ago, via the are in video 
games. 

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So like RPG design started in 
the pandemic. 

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But I had already been thinking 
about game design because I 

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photography was boring me a 
little bit. 

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And so I decided to go and get a
degree which is I should say 

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these things fast. 
Or this is a long Meandering 

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paths for fails. 
But yeah, I don't have an 

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undergrad degree and I thought 
it would be fun to see if I 

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could convince a, you know, the 
university to let me go to a 

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graduate program without having 
to do an undergraduate program 

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and they did. 
And so, I did a grad degree in 

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effectively games even though my
experience was in photography 

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and there and so I like spent a 
couple years exploring games 

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primarily through VR and like, 
Mediums. 

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And then the pandemic happened 
and I was like, wait people just

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make RPGs and I love RPGs, I 
could probably make an RPG. 

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I love maybe, but I love part of
the hard part of the RPG design 

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began in the end of the 
captains. 

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And I was like, I read the book 
s by JJ Abrams and some other 

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guy attacked or whatever and it 
has It's a it's a novel that has

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a bunch of inserts in it and a 
bunch of a second story, takes 

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place in the margins of two 
characters writing between one 

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writing to one another and I was
like that sounds like a fun 

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pandemic game. 
So my first RPG was a game that 

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you played in a book that you 
like mailed or a handoff to 

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another person and then they 
take their turn, right? 

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At you messages in another book 
and went wild from there. 

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That's awesome. 
Yeah, that's why I love I very 

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much love like a lot of this 
non-traditional like especially 

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like male Focus games that were 
That were cropped up during 

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like, lockdown the pandemic. 
Like, I think that they're 

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really cool and like, a fun, 
like like different kind of game

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creative activity. 
Yeah, very cool. 

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So I have a question. 
What, what the hell is him bows?

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Tell us about him, bows of myth,
and mount. 

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And both of my, the metal is my 
by the game that I made the 

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title of so I wouldn't get sued.
It was a Originally this is a 

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game idea that came up a couple 
years ago and I was going to do 

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him bows of Might and Magic but 
for sure was going to get sued 

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if I call it that, right? 
And so I was like, what other m 

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words, kind of mean the same 
thing, but it's my like kind of 

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I call it 0s are adjacent 
because it's like osr design 

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informed without like holding 
onto without actually really 

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being invested in or caring 
about where that line is like. 

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I don't care about where that 
line is. 

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I just it's a more of a like 
these are the those are the 

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games that kind of Full inst my 
design of it but it's meant to 

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be like, super flamboyant and 
very queer and very comedic and 

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kind of invert that thing that 
moment when we're all playing 

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Fantasy games, where people are 
like, how can I outsmart this 

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problem, which I always had 
this, like, like that's kind of 

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held up a lot of moments in 
gaming. 

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For me, was like, how do I 
outsmart this problem? 

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And I was like, what if you 
didn't have that option? 

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What if he were just like, I 
know, head empty, no thoughts. 

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I don't know if there's a truck,
there's a Very complex. 

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Puzzle in front of me. 
What happened? 

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I've been designed to keep 
going. 

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Yeah. 
It's you know there's two of my 

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favorite Parts in this book are 
the stats. 

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The fact that they're literally 
is like these specific saying 

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here. 
There are no brain stats. 

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Like literally use it all but 
also I mean I love this like 

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library card statue thing in the
back but the fact that your 

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stats are literally like It's 
like breasts, lips, thighs, and 

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hands, right? 
Like, all the best parts and 

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then like, one of the biggest 
problems that himbo can face is 

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literally Heroes. 
It's like, don't be one, you 

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don't have to be what if you get
too many stars are like scars? 

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It's like, Oh no, you're 
probably hero now, because 

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you've been doing to me heroic 
things, like and there's even 

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people that might have been 
Heroes before that are just 

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like, but that's my past life 
where I used to break knees and 

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stuff. 
Now, I just am big and pretty 

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and it's awesome. 
Like I love the Like, dive into 

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just, I don't know how to say 
it. 

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Like, I guess just being like, 
big and dumb and fun and just 

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like, like being a big, nice. 
Awesome person to seems like 

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such a fun game as opposed to, 
you know, the hero Fantasy games

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Edge. 
Lord hero. 

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Yeah, I do like his design away 
from the edge learned hero. 

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Aaron Hasbro pointed out and 
reminded me. 

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So, the Stats come from sex dice
that we all had, when we were 

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teenagers. 
You know, let's say, Cuz there 

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was this Reddit post. 
This is there was a Reddit post 

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about somebody who had played 
their first D&D game. 

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And the thing that everybody did
with this DM, who often like 

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introduced people to RPGs was 
contribute to their dice bags, 

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they had this dice bag that was 
just huge and only made of dice 

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the players and kind of like 
tipped them with after a session

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or whatever. 
And this new player didn't have 

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any Dice and except for the sex 
dice and so through the sex toys

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in the big bag and then heard 
later of somebody of the Like 

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pulling dice out and ended up 
and rolling. 

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This like, oh, I rolled D6 + 
breast and I saw the phrase D6 +

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breasts and my brain was like, 
it has to be me. 

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I have to make this, this is my 
game, this is my legacy which 

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comes from like the background 
and dirty videos like I was a 

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rock photographer for a long 
time so it was kind of been like

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sexuality adjacent and so when 
it popped up that's why I was 

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like oh this is like exactly the
cross-section of all my Jam's. 

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I got to do it. 
And then it became this like 

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semi heartfelt, comedic bonehead
Kami Sumi heart felt like heart 

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is like one of the most 
important things that it is like

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most important in the game 
really. 

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Yeah, hmm. 
Yeah, that's nice but pretty 

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great. 
So is there like he had some 

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discussion on the show and like 
kind of in the TT RPG space 

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about like, genre emulation you 
know, was there like Or like a 

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like movie or franchisor story 
that like really Sparks like 

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very himbo for you or like I 
spent a lot of my time writing 

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him Bose, re-watching. 
Xena hell yeah, Lena is, but if 

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I know that like people were 
probably expecting me to go to 

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like a big dumb, dude thing but 
for me, like, I spent most of my

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upbringing watching Xena, I have
matchings, I have a matching 

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Xena tattoo with a group of like
five people. 

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We were all just like we're 
getting a Xena tattoo. 

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And it is the perfect. 
I was like if there is a vibe 

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that I want to hit it is this 
because there's always that 

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because also like when you talk 
about the internal struggle of 

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becoming a hero I'm like that's 
Xena's story, right? 

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She like always wants to not be 
the hero because it means she 

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has to do things that are like 
morally difficult for her. 

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And what she really wants to do 
is help people in getting too 

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serious about Xena, but like, 
that is the trajectory of the 

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show for every little judgment 
here, huh. 

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Yeah. 
And so, I like, I bought all of 

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the seasons on YouTube and just 
would like sit writing the game 

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with Xena in the background. 
Xena for, I mean, for I was, I 

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mean, I love Xena but Callisto 
always had my heart but um, you 

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also get like Aires and Hercules
and people that honestly, I 

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think are literally just him 
bows like realistically in the 

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show. 
I feel like in my young gay 

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life, I was really obsessed with
Gabrielle. 

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That was like, the, like, Xena 
was like, I'm going to be buzzed

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with scene, or whatever, but 
Gabrielle was the like, oh, I'm 

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12 years old. 
And I have a crush on a TV show 

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character. 
Right? 

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And I feel like Gabrielle is the
Perfect combo. 

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Like that's she is the one that 
always has the like, nope. 

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We can't we can't compromise our
morals. 

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Like we have to be helpful. 
We have to believe in like 

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certain things. 
We have to have values that like

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guide our actions. 
And but then also is just kind 

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of like often walking into traps
because she has too much faith 

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in everybody. 
Yeah. 

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So I feel like a lot of it for 
me was probably like, while 

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watching Z and I was often 
Gabrielle. 

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And yeah, but there is fine. 
I mean, who doesn't love Aires. 

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Now I'm an adult and I'm like, 
obviously Aires, but I really 

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was thinking after you started 
changing, I was like, oh yeah, 

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Hercules to that's a related. 
That's another. 

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Yeah. 
Prime him bow. 

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And you know, the kiwis Hercules
via the Disney series though 

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because Kevin Sorbo is not a 
person that I ever want to 

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engage with the yeah. 
Hercules for us by being a dick?

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Yeah it's one of those things 
that you try to separate the art

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from the artist and then they're
just a trash person and if you 

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like them fuck off. 
Don't disturb our guests. 

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Yeah, but some of the you've 
mentioned multiple times now, 

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and someone who is just in the 
chat is Aaron motherfucking King

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aerys, had on the show before 
the ship friend of the show. 

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Celebrity motherfucking. 
Yeah, how did you become friends

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with Aaron? 
Like, have you known them for a 

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long time? 
Or I have not known Aaron for a 

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long time. 
I mean I guess it's been a 

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couple years now because what is
time in the pandemic but I met 

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Aaron through the Brain. 
Trust Discord. 

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Yeah. 
And we just like messaged we I 

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think there was just a couple 
moments and a couple messages 

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where we were like oh I think we
have similar thoughts about 

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stuff. 
And I actually think, I think 

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the first I might be wrong are 
might call me on this, but I 

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think the first private message 
between the two of us was Aaron 

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being like, hey, there's this 
cool zine publisher that also 

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publishes like 18 plus work and 
it can be like, photographic or 

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whatever and I know that some 
that's a thing you do so maybe 

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you should check them out and 
that was the moment where I was 

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like oh cool RPG things but also
like queer sexuality politics, 

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DIY art stuff things. 
So we kind of that was little 

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when I was like, oh, I think we 
have a lot of, like, similar 

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interests and World Views 
outside of just this RPG 

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connection that has been made 
through the Brain. 

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Trust. 
And I was like, yeah that's 

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that's when I was like, oh hard 
eyes, great besties forever. 

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I guess we're getting married. 
Hell yeah. 

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00:12:43,900 --> 00:12:45,100
Hell yeah. 
Anyway. 

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Yeah. 
And then at what point did read 

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the fucking manual. 
Come about. 

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That was last winter. 
Last winter. 

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We don't even know how we 
started doing it. 

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I think we like think there were
just a lot of conversations. 

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Maybe Aaron remembers has a 
better memory for these things 

224
00:13:01,300 --> 00:13:06,300
than I do but there is a lot of 
there's a lot of like I would 

225
00:13:06,300 --> 00:13:11,400
like an excuse to read the books
that I buy and also yeah like 

226
00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,000
I'm sure you know nothing about 
that reason that I'm doing this 

227
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:14,700
right now. 
Yeah. 

228
00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:19,600
And and also like we're both big
book nerds, it was like let's 

229
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,300
maybe read them like actual 
books. 

230
00:13:21,300 --> 00:13:24,500
Like let's just have a little 
book club and everybody I mean 

231
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,200
again pandemic everybody started
a podcast, right? 

232
00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,300
So we're like well I've always 
actually wanted to have a 

233
00:13:30,308 --> 00:13:34,100
podcast because I liked it like 
have discussions about ideas and

234
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,600
and I prefer to do that in a 
conversational way than in like 

235
00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,500
a written way. 
And I feel like sometimes 

236
00:13:40,500 --> 00:13:42,700
podcasts are good for that every
once in a while. 

237
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:49,100
But then we recorded I think 
like December 24th or something 

238
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,500
last year. 
Like it was like because neither

239
00:13:51,500 --> 00:13:53,300
of us really care about 
Christmas and we were like, 

240
00:13:53,300 --> 00:13:55,900
let's just do this. 
This and then the recording went

241
00:13:55,900 --> 00:13:57,400
a little wild, and we didn't 
release it. 

242
00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,200
And I became the secret, the 
secret episode 0 that doesn't 

243
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,800
exist anywhere. 
Except on cassette tapes, But 

244
00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:10,000
it's been it's been over a year 
now and it's a hoot zoo is a 

245
00:14:10,008 --> 00:14:11,900
great podcast. 
I really love listening. 

246
00:14:11,900 --> 00:14:17,000
I mean, you guys do a similar 
thing to like what we do. 

247
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,200
Like you sit down, you read the 
book, you're like you like the 

248
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,300
parts you like, you're critical 
of the parts that you're not and

249
00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:29,300
that's what I really like about 
what I don't like a lot is not 

250
00:14:29,300 --> 00:14:31,500
that I don't like they're a lot 
of amazing podcast like 5 10 

251
00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:34,000
minute videos, but I feel like a
lot of them are just like here's

252
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:35,400
the good stuff and like that's 
how you get. 

253
00:14:35,700 --> 00:14:37,900
And I really like that, you 
know, if you guys would like 

254
00:14:37,900 --> 00:14:42,300
something, you let us know that 
you don't like it. 

255
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:44,500
And I really, really appreciate 
that. 

256
00:14:44,500 --> 00:14:47,200
You know? 
Like there's games that I'm not 

257
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,900
going, I'm not going to play 
because you guys are just like 

258
00:14:50,100 --> 00:14:55,600
in a very well, informed way. 
That's the thing. 

259
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,600
It's not just like, I don't like
this visit of thing. 

260
00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,600
There's a lot of detailed into 
like this is why I don't like 

261
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,500
the way this is done, and these 
are ways that it could be done 

262
00:15:02,500 --> 00:15:03,900
better. 
And I might play it if it was 

263
00:15:03,900 --> 00:15:08,300
done this way instead but Like, 
you know, I really, really enjoy

264
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,700
the, the depth of insight that 
you have into the reasons that 

265
00:15:12,700 --> 00:15:15,100
you like, or not like things. 
And so it's really, really nice 

266
00:15:15,100 --> 00:15:17,800
to listen to those kind of 
things, especially in the 

267
00:15:17,808 --> 00:15:19,400
collection, said, a little bit 
longer format where I can 

268
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,200
actually sit down and get stuff 
done and listen to it as opposed

269
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,100
to, like, short little video. 
So it's a really, really 

270
00:15:24,100 --> 00:15:25,200
enjoyable. 
Listen, if you're listening to 

271
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:26,900
our podcast and you haven't 
listened to me the fucking 

272
00:15:26,900 --> 00:15:29,700
manual, like you are definitely 
definitely missing out. 

273
00:15:29,900 --> 00:15:31,900
So you should go check it out 
with Max and Erin. 

274
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,200
We have fun. 
I feel like we both. 

275
00:15:35,700 --> 00:15:38,200
I like to think that the way 
that we engage with them is 

276
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,100
personal enough that people 
won't feel dissuaded from like 

277
00:15:41,100 --> 00:15:43,600
checking a book out if they 
really want to you know like I'm

278
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,000
me saying you know, I think like
kind of famously now is like I 

279
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:48,700
don't really like the quiet. 
I don't like the experience of 

280
00:15:48,700 --> 00:15:50,200
playing the quiet year. 
I think the quiet year is a 

281
00:15:50,208 --> 00:15:54,100
brilliant game but like this is 
my personal relationship to this

282
00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:56,300
kind of gameplay. 
I'm like it doesn't click for me

283
00:15:56,300 --> 00:15:59,900
in the ways that in the ways 
that it does for so many people 

284
00:15:59,900 --> 00:16:01,600
and I think that's legit. 
Some games are just bad. 

285
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,200
That's not, that's a very A game
that I just have a personal 

286
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,000
dislike. 
Some games like groups or just 

287
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:13,200
that's never ever do it slander 
sir. 

288
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:15,300
Yeah. 
Program slander. 

289
00:16:15,300 --> 00:16:16,100
Yeah there. 
Yeah. 

290
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,600
Yeah. 
Again that's the thing though is

291
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:25,400
just like you can you can be 
like with with media and general

292
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,800
just be like this is awesome. 
Don't recommend you know what I 

293
00:16:27,808 --> 00:16:28,700
mean? 
Like that's it. 

294
00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:33,400
That's an okay thing to have and
I wish more people were had 

295
00:16:35,100 --> 00:16:37,700
could think that way that like 
you don't have to define 

296
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,700
something by who you are and it 
doesn't have to Define you 

297
00:16:41,700 --> 00:16:43,900
whether you like it or not like 
not everything has to be a 

298
00:16:43,908 --> 00:16:46,300
Lifestyle brand. 
Like, there are a lot of games 

299
00:16:46,300 --> 00:16:50,600
that I absolutely love on the 
shelf that I will 1000%, never 

300
00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:52,900
touch. 
Like, after I read it, I'm like,

301
00:16:52,900 --> 00:16:55,000
this is really well done. 
I love lady this. 

302
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,200
I love the way they do that. 
I'm not gonna bring it to my 

303
00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,000
table. 
I don't have the bandwidth for 

304
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,400
it and it's just not something 
I'm going to enjoy doing, you 

305
00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:03,900
know, completely. 
Something like him bows, you 

306
00:17:03,900 --> 00:17:06,599
know? 
I mean we're this is I would and

307
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:09,400
will be playing this like sooner
than later. 

308
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:13,400
I really would like I want to 
like a, I want I need, I say 

309
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,500
that I said this was about 
different game but especially 

310
00:17:15,500 --> 00:17:16,900
this one. 
I want to do a fast and the 

311
00:17:16,900 --> 00:17:22,400
furious and those, you know? 
Yeah, so yeah, dudes, doing guy 

312
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,200
stuff? 
Yeah, just being like like, like

313
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,800
glistening with sweat and being 
really big like family. 

314
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,700
You know, do what's right with 
the family. 

315
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:34,900
Hi. 
I have this goal and maybe this 

316
00:17:34,900 --> 00:17:37,100
will be the year. 
I keep saying this that this is 

317
00:17:37,100 --> 00:17:39,700
going to be the year that I do 
it and I'm hoping to manifest 

318
00:17:39,700 --> 00:17:42,900
it, but I really want to run an 
ancient deity module. 

319
00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:46,100
Like one of the big horrible 
ones like Temple of Elemental 

320
00:17:46,100 --> 00:17:49,900
Evil in him boats. 
These are the this is what I 

321
00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:52,700
want is just like the ones that 
are supposed to be brutal and 

322
00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:55,500
full of horrible, puzzles, and 
everybody dies and then throw a 

323
00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:58,400
game where people can't really 
solve puzzles and they can't 

324
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,800
die. 
And I'm like, I want to do this,

325
00:18:00,900 --> 00:18:04,500
what happens? 
Oh my god. 

326
00:18:04,500 --> 00:18:08,200
Let's do like please do that 
would be this amazing. 

327
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:10,200
Amazing. 
You like do you just come across

328
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,800
like the most difficult little 
intricate puzzle ever and some 

329
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,700
was just like aah, Smash It 
Like, and then you just like 

330
00:18:15,700 --> 00:18:18,600
open the door and keep going. 
Like, that would be amazing. 

331
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,000
Not only that like everything. 
What Pops in my head over and 

332
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,100
over again is like, I would 
watch his cartoon on Saturday 

333
00:18:23,100 --> 00:18:26,600
morning like every fucking week.
You know what I mean? 

334
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,300
Ubi you have to have one of 
those special channels up in the

335
00:18:29,308 --> 00:18:31,400
300, to watch it on Saturday 
morning. 

336
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:36,000
It sounds like, you know, No. 
Yeah, you could make it like 

337
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,200
sweaty and still PG, you know 
what I mean? 

338
00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:41,500
Kind of yeah. 
Yes, people do that. 

339
00:18:41,500 --> 00:18:43,800
Yeah. 
I mean it can also be one of the

340
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:45,500
high channels that I'd still 
watch it though. 

341
00:18:45,700 --> 00:18:52,500
Like I watch, we're watching, do
like a critical role s 

342
00:18:52,500 --> 00:18:55,000
Kickstarter make like a billion 
dollars and they just do a 

343
00:18:55,008 --> 00:18:57,400
hippo's cartoon. 
Let's go, dude. 

344
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,400
You know, I would dealer should 
do a than an actual play. 

345
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,300
Let me get in really, really 
good shape. 

346
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,900
It all the buffer and leaner 
gonna be shirtless. 

347
00:19:05,100 --> 00:19:06,600
Yeah, and I'll just get like a 
mr. 

348
00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:08,200
You know? 
And like so every few seconds, 

349
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,100
I'll just like, like what they 
do with the rock on the set of 

350
00:19:11,100 --> 00:19:14,400
actually Fast and Furious. 
He's just like soaking wet the 

351
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:19,000
entire time, you're like, why I 
almost crowdfunding is 

352
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:20,900
exhausting. 
And so I didn't end up doing 

353
00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:23,100
this. 
But when I did the, the sample 

354
00:19:23,100 --> 00:19:25,000
playthrough, like when I did my 
little AP, when I was 

355
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,100
crowdfunding him bows, one of 
the people I invited is a person

356
00:19:28,100 --> 00:19:31,400
who would like never had only 
played one RPG in their life and

357
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,200
it was with me like to months 
before. 

358
00:19:34,500 --> 00:19:36,000
But who was a burlesque 
performer? 

359
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:41,300
And I almost tried like I almost
tried to plan a bit with her so 

360
00:19:41,300 --> 00:19:44,500
that she would like strip as the
game went on because she would 

361
00:19:44,500 --> 00:19:46,300
have done it would've been fine.
I was like we're then I wouldn't

362
00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:49,600
be able to use it promotional 
YouTube but so it might it might

363
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:54,700
kill it but I really would like 
to do a thing someday where 

364
00:19:54,700 --> 00:19:59,000
people Play. 
This is the I think, maybe I'm 

365
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,300
just being egotistical, but I 
think this is the best version 

366
00:20:01,300 --> 00:20:03,200
of, how are we all cosplaying 
our characters? 

367
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,300
If you're not playing him? 
Bose y, cos player characters, I

368
00:20:06,300 --> 00:20:09,300
think I think there's a there's 
a lot of like it fairly raunchy 

369
00:20:09,300 --> 00:20:12,400
fun to be had kind of in that 
space. 

370
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,900
I think you have but I think you
have the people that would 

371
00:20:16,900 --> 00:20:20,700
absolutely do it too, because, I
mean, I'm down chats down, you 

372
00:20:20,700 --> 00:20:21,200
know. 
Yeah. 

373
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,500
All of chats in so they'll 
listen we're already shirtless. 

374
00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:29,000
Is play a game now and then I 
think, I think YouTube would let

375
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,000
us. 
Yeah, I have a Rocky Horror 

376
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:33,600
Picture. 
Show cosplay outfits, um, we're 

377
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:38,400
in here, I've got gold spandex 
tights so you know, I hate 

378
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,900
shirts. 
I'm kind of notoriously outside 

379
00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:44,400
of RPGs in my actual real life. 
I am known to say because I've 

380
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,600
had Top surgery, I've known to 
say I didn't pay ten thousand 

381
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,200
dollars to put my chest below a 
shirt, but it's frequently and 

382
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,700
I'm like, the internet 
frequently requires me to wear 

383
00:20:52,700 --> 00:20:56,300
shirts and I hate them. 
So I always are See there. 

384
00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:59,200
I'm always trying to contact 
myself away from that in order 

385
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,400
to just engage with the internet
again. 

386
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:08,600
So like, this is a 0s are like 
tangentially related. 0s are 

387
00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:12,700
adjacent game, right? 
Do you like interface lot with 

388
00:21:12,700 --> 00:21:15,000
the osr community? 
Cuz I'm wondering, like, 

389
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,100
obviously, like I, I don't have 
this personal knowledge myself 

390
00:21:18,100 --> 00:21:20,800
to like, as like a queer Creator
in this communities communities,

391
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,300
like very incredibly split down 
the middle of being like 

392
00:21:24,300 --> 00:21:27,800
incredibly LGBT. 
Plus friendly and then total 

393
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:33,000
fucking Nazis like in like 
funding it Bimbo's did you come 

394
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,200
across anything that like like 
any of those people who were 

395
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,500
just kind of neat like naysayers
and terrible awful humans? 

396
00:21:39,900 --> 00:21:43,100
I think I'm pretty lucky and it 
like one I don't again like I 

397
00:21:43,100 --> 00:21:45,300
don't usually care about the 
bounds of like what is? 

398
00:21:45,300 --> 00:21:49,300
Yes are and what is not? 
I think like as like yeah, as 

399
00:21:49,300 --> 00:21:53,400
like design inspiration, find 
them where you can not Nazis, 

400
00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:55,700
all the knowledge all across 
genre. 

401
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,500
You know, like anything, that's 
not enough. 

402
00:21:57,500 --> 00:22:01,700
See sounds great. 
But, but yeah, I am because I 

403
00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:05,700
don't care about those things 
and also, because I'm just so 

404
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:09,300
angry and gay on the internet, I
don't think that people, like 

405
00:22:09,300 --> 00:22:14,700
come to like my Twitter or my 
itch and like, don't know what 

406
00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:19,700
they're getting in for. 
I think there might have been 

407
00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:22,500
one comment and I don't remember
it because there was, I think 

408
00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:26,400
there was some sassy comment 
about queerness on Never the 

409
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,300
things that I released, and it 
might have been him bows, or it 

410
00:22:28,300 --> 00:22:30,000
might have been one of the 
pamphlet adventures, and I 

411
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,800
didn't respond. 
But Aaron did. 

412
00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:34,500
Aaron went in and made a fool of
somebody who, like, didn't 

413
00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:36,400
understand a gay joke or 
whatever. 

414
00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:39,600
And I will forever be. 
She ate them for that. 

415
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,300
But I feel like I do luck out 
because I don't like I follow a 

416
00:22:43,308 --> 00:22:46,200
lot of folks, and engage with 
some folks that are like, in the

417
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,900
osr but not because of that, 
because they have like 

418
00:22:48,900 --> 00:22:52,600
compelling games, but also like 
interesting personalities and 

419
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,200
interesting politics. 
Like I'm not really, I'm more 

420
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,000
interested in in your game. 
If you're an interesting person 

421
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,000
than I do, if you even made a 
really cool game but are kind of

422
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,300
shitty or boring person, right? 
Like those are the it those 

423
00:23:05,300 --> 00:23:08,700
things actually do affect how I 
read your game and so they will 

424
00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:12,300
affect whether or not I play 
your game and how I read the 

425
00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:15,400
subtext of your game or like the
intertextual elements of your 

426
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,100
game are going to be like 
impacted by probably your 

427
00:23:19,100 --> 00:23:22,600
Twitter hate to tell you RPG 
people but probably I'm reading 

428
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,700
your game through the voice you 
use for your Twitter but that's 

429
00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:27,900
it. 
Valid like your personality 

430
00:23:27,900 --> 00:23:30,800
comes out in your game when you 
write a thing especially you put

431
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,800
a lot of heart into it. 
Like your personality comes out 

432
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,900
and it's like yeah if you suck 
the game might suck a little bit

433
00:23:35,900 --> 00:23:39,300
because yeah, you're gonna hear 
their voice in it and as I stay 

434
00:23:39,300 --> 00:23:44,000
here, I feel like when I when 
Ryan first ask me if I want to 

435
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,800
do this with him which was like 
I was very early on in my like 

436
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,100
TT RPG like I'd played Cipher 
system was most applying that 

437
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,000
like I first goes pushing on 
like you know osr Twitter I was 

438
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,300
like holy shit. 
Shit bro, this is fucking 

439
00:23:57,300 --> 00:24:00,000
terrible. 
These people are awful and now, 

440
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,900
like two people, we've talked to
and people Ryan Falls and stuff 

441
00:24:02,900 --> 00:24:05,000
and like me following them. 
It's gotten I don't see like 

442
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,000
any, I don't see any hate like 
that at all anymore. 

443
00:24:09,100 --> 00:24:11,000
So I think the algorithms just 
working, I don't know if things 

444
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,500
have gotten better over all if 
the algorithm is just working 

445
00:24:13,500 --> 00:24:16,900
but I'm glad to hear that you 
know fuck that one person there 

446
00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:22,400
right? 
Yeah yeah and just the way on 

447
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,200
and a tiny bit. 
I mean I do think that the osr 

448
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,600
is scapegoat A little bit 
sometimes to just be like 

449
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,900
default that is all the bad 
people are and I do think there 

450
00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:34,000
are bad people across like 
everywhere and we should look 

451
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,700
out for them everywhere. 
And I do think that a lot of the

452
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,100
I don't know movers and shakers 
in that scene. 

453
00:24:41,700 --> 00:24:44,500
I've rarely see things actually 
put out by them and the very few

454
00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:50,100
things I've seen by them suck. 
So you know, if people want to 

455
00:24:50,100 --> 00:24:52,600
be on 4chan, doing all that kind
of stuff, you know, the thing 

456
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,700
about Twitter that I enjoy, is 
that you can craft it. 

457
00:24:55,900 --> 00:24:59,200
For the most part to what suit 
to like, if you don't like a 

458
00:24:59,208 --> 00:25:01,900
Discord, you blocker, you mute 
it or like, you don't follow 

459
00:25:01,900 --> 00:25:05,000
that person. 
And for the most part, I guess 

460
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,800
you can avoid that. 
I try not to discourse a lot on 

461
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,300
our Twitter, but I will read it,
you know? 

462
00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:15,000
So it's it is what it is and we 
talked about still a bit before 

463
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,900
stream with just various 
discourses, always pop up there,

464
00:25:17,900 --> 00:25:19,300
nice to listen to 
intellectually. 

465
00:25:19,300 --> 00:25:22,900
If the, if the if the argument 
or intellectually honest about 

466
00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:28,500
what they're saying, and You 
know, it's what time it is, what

467
00:25:28,500 --> 00:25:30,200
it is. 
I just wanted to make a point to

468
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,700
say, like OS Ras are in a sar. 
Whatever it is, there can be bad

469
00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:35,600
actors everywhere. 
And I don't want to skate growth

470
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:41,100
osr, but also, there are some 
online TT, RPG Community. 

471
00:25:41,100 --> 00:25:44,400
Like the greater the teacher 
Refugee family is something, I'd

472
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,900
avoid a lot more than that. 
There we go. 

473
00:25:46,900 --> 00:25:49,500
Yeah, maybe not. 
I apologize for that. 

474
00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:54,700
But like, the TT RPG again. 
It's also like a lot of fantasy 

475
00:25:54,700 --> 00:25:57,200
RPGs, right? 
Like, That history of people 

476
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,900
being assholes is the legacy of 
Dungeons & Dragons. 

477
00:25:59,900 --> 00:26:02,900
It's not like the new OS art 
like they're like I'm actually 

478
00:26:02,900 --> 00:26:05,800
really I know who's working in 
osr stuff for like red queers 

479
00:26:06,300 --> 00:26:08,900
and so like that. 
And that just might be because 

480
00:26:08,900 --> 00:26:13,000
every like my my path is through
rad, queer game designers and 

481
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:14,700
every once in a while we get no 
Sr person. 

482
00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:17,400
But it's like, who's the who's 
the weird? 

483
00:26:17,500 --> 00:26:19,700
Like, who's the queer do in the 
group? 

484
00:26:19,700 --> 00:26:21,900
But I feel like part of the 
reason that I left wanting to 

485
00:26:21,900 --> 00:26:24,700
really engage with D&D, a lot is
because d and e is, and 

486
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,400
sometimes that's literally Not 
season, but more often than not 

487
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,000
it's just really jerky men, 
right? 

488
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,300
Like yeah here's toxic 
masculinity, the game genre and 

489
00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:36,200
I just it's not it doesn't 
doesn't work for me. 

490
00:26:36,900 --> 00:26:38,900
It's just grovner douches, you 
know what I mean? 

491
00:26:38,900 --> 00:26:43,000
Like I, fortunately, 
unfortunately, I don't know. 

492
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,000
I started with 5th edition so it
was a little bit different and I

493
00:26:46,008 --> 00:26:49,100
wasn't friends with a bunch of 
drugs are douches, which I 

494
00:26:49,100 --> 00:26:50,000
guess. 
Thank goodness. 

495
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,900
So, it was nice. 
But then I actually started a 

496
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,500
D&D group where I used to live. 
I've started a meetup group had 

497
00:26:57,500 --> 00:27:00,800
like 300 plus people on it. 
We were doing like, you know, 20

498
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:05,300
plus people every weekend for 
for Adventures League, we are 

499
00:27:05,300 --> 00:27:08,300
having meetings all the time and
you run into him. 

500
00:27:08,300 --> 00:27:11,900
You really, really do you know? 
And the easiest thing to do is 

501
00:27:11,900 --> 00:27:16,700
to just remove them and not try 
to like one of the things that 

502
00:27:16,700 --> 00:27:20,100
the DM tips that I like the 
least are the ones that say this

503
00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:21,200
is how to deal with a problem 
player. 

504
00:27:21,300 --> 00:27:24,000
You know how to do the problem 
player, you don't you move on 

505
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,200
anyway. 
One thing that you mentioned a 

506
00:27:28,208 --> 00:27:31,200
little bit ago was crowdfunding 
and how that kind of sucks. 

507
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,400
So you got you recently 
crowdfunding project with Aaron,

508
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,800
Lopez features your part of it 
being hand baskets. 

509
00:27:39,300 --> 00:27:41,900
You guys. 
You did. 

510
00:27:42,700 --> 00:27:44,600
It was just a two-week funding, 
right? 

511
00:27:45,700 --> 00:27:48,100
Yeah. 
It's just a little Vision Quest 

512
00:27:48,100 --> 00:27:52,000
thing that we are in is in the 
chat. 

513
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:53,900
Talking about low-res features 
failures. 

514
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,600
The we We. 
Yeah, we want it. 

515
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,000
I, it's my fault. 
I like approached are in like 

516
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,300
three weeks before. 
Zine question was like, do you 

517
00:28:02,300 --> 00:28:06,800
want to do a Zine quest with me?
And they were like, well, I do 

518
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,200
have a game that's mostly 
written, and I was like, I have 

519
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,600
a game that's half written, so 
maybe we should just do it. 

520
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,400
And I think probably we could 
have planned it a little better,

521
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:19,400
but I also don't know that I 
believe really much about like, 

522
00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:22,100
consistency in crowdfunding. 
I know that like if you throw a 

523
00:28:22,100 --> 00:28:24,000
bunch of money at it, you can 
make a bunch of money, but that 

524
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:25,000
was never going to be the 
choice. 

525
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,500
We were going to make And so 
because we don't have a bunch of

526
00:28:28,508 --> 00:28:30,300
money to throw at it. 
So that was, it was never really

527
00:28:30,300 --> 00:28:31,700
be like, oh yeah, we have a 
marketing budget. 

528
00:28:31,700 --> 00:28:34,000
It was always gonna be or making
this crappy little book. 

529
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,600
I hope you help because I think 
that's it's our. 

530
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:44,000
Our Jam is kind of, both of us 
talked, a lot about, like, labor

531
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,300
ethics and all of that. 
And so it can we get really 

532
00:28:46,300 --> 00:28:49,600
killer, we get really confused, 
we talk ourselves in circles and

533
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:51,300
I think sometimes we confuse 
ourselves and they're like, are 

534
00:28:51,300 --> 00:28:52,300
we doing it? 
Okay. 

535
00:28:52,300 --> 00:28:54,200
We're going to do it even though
we don't really know where we 

536
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,700
stand about, and It was a lot of
our, a lot of our low res 

537
00:28:58,700 --> 00:29:01,700
features Vibes this year. 
I also think this year is a 

538
00:29:01,700 --> 00:29:04,100
burnt-out year for both of us, 
and we should have maybe 

539
00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:08,500
emotionally understood that, but
the games are good. 

540
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,400
Even though we both had an 
emotionally difficult time, 

541
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,700
engaging with the Beast that is 
crowdfunding this year. 

542
00:29:15,900 --> 00:29:19,100
The games are very good. 
I like my game a lot. 

543
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,400
It's, it's really weird to make 
a PVP PVP game. 

544
00:29:24,700 --> 00:29:27,400
This is like, it is stretch. 
My design brain in ways that I 

545
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:34,800
wasn't anticipating it doing but
I enjoy that exercise and it. 

546
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:36,600
Yeah, it's really. 
That's the best. 

547
00:29:36,700 --> 00:29:39,400
It's really hard. 
It is very hard to make a PVP 

548
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:40,900
game. 
That isn't just like tactical 

549
00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:45,600
combat all over the place. 
External tactical combat though,

550
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,300
right? 
But the project did fund you 

551
00:29:47,300 --> 00:29:49,700
guys? 
Yeah, you're making the game 

552
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:50,600
what? 
Yeah. 

553
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,100
So what's I'm? 
So what was that? 

554
00:29:52,100 --> 00:29:53,500
What was that pitch for a 
low-res features? 

555
00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:57,900
I know that there's an 
interesting Anything that I 

556
00:29:57,900 --> 00:29:59,200
really love and I'm excited to 
see you. 

557
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,800
But what was, what was the 
project? 

558
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,000
Yeah. 
I mean, the pitch was that we 

559
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:09,400
both we both had games that were
kind of sitting in like a cyber 

560
00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:14,200
pseudo. 
Punk 90s, kind of vibe and 

561
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,900
wanted to pair them together and
then most of the time Punk Vibe 

562
00:30:17,900 --> 00:30:19,900
is the 90 cyberpunk. 
Yeah. 

563
00:30:19,900 --> 00:30:22,400
I mean, it's arguably, the only 
one and I don't think it could 

564
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,700
be a new thing but it like, I 
think it's a difference. 

565
00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:29,200
If it's a new thing, but it we 
both read cyber metal. 

566
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,400
By Adam vests, Will Champion Co 
28, cyber metal. 

567
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,200
Spike 12, such a good game. 
Amazing. 

568
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,900
Amazing. 
And both of us read it. 

569
00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:39,900
And we're like, I have to make 
something like it's one of those

570
00:30:39,900 --> 00:30:42,400
books that you read and if 
you're a designer, it can't not 

571
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:48,000
infiltrate your brain and the 
the combination of the 

572
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,700
inspiration of this one game. 
And hey, what if we made these 

573
00:30:51,700 --> 00:30:55,900
like pseudo 90s inspired cyber 
games and then packaged Them 

574
00:30:55,900 --> 00:30:57,900
together. 
And what's called a Ted bash, 

575
00:30:57,900 --> 00:31:00,200
which means it's one of those 
books that you read one way and 

576
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,000
you flip it, and it's a whole 
other book and read it the other

577
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:07,000
way. 
And, and then because I'm a 

578
00:31:07,008 --> 00:31:10,800
Unity developer by day, I was 
like what if we just actually 

579
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,500
made it a cyber thing and made 
it like an AR pop-up book. 

580
00:31:14,500 --> 00:31:17,200
So there's all these like, 
hidden all this hidden shit once

581
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,400
the book is done. 
That is that will add to it. 

582
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,200
That is totally optional, right?
Like it needs to stay optional. 

583
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,500
So that the book remains 
complete in its Doesn't require 

584
00:31:26,500 --> 00:31:30,400
like a phone to get into, but we
are also making an error app 

585
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,400
that's going to. 
I think what we're going to do 

586
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,900
is we're going to a are like 
commentate each other's games 

587
00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:41,200
through the a our app. 
So kind of like make some weird 

588
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,400
little hacks and design on each 
other's games through a are, 

589
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,100
which I think of the, I think 
it's gonna be fucking sick. 

590
00:31:49,100 --> 00:31:53,100
I'm stoked for that. 
Sounds fucking amazing. 

591
00:31:53,100 --> 00:31:55,700
Like, for what sounds like, was 
it difficult? 

592
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,200
Time to get it going. 
Like how is it now? 

593
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,200
Like now that the Project's 
crowdfunded like and I know it 

594
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,100
says it's stretching your brain 
but it sounds like maybe in a 

595
00:32:04,100 --> 00:32:06,500
good way. 
Like, do you do both of you feel

596
00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:09,000
better about the the path of the
project? 

597
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,400
Are you excited for how awesome?
The sounds or yeah. 

598
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,100
Yeah. 
I am excited about where it's 

599
00:32:14,100 --> 00:32:15,200
gone. 
I've done some playtests. 

600
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,200
Now, some of those have been 
like, again that they spin like 

601
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,800
a kind of in opposite to him 
bows like hippos, just came out 

602
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,700
and was what I wanted it to be, 
it was a very easy design. 

603
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:30,700
Process for me, and this is kind
of the opposite, but I feel like

604
00:32:30,700 --> 00:32:32,500
that's always the case with 
creative things that sometimes 

605
00:32:32,500 --> 00:32:34,500
they like, you just get taken 
over and you do a thing. 

606
00:32:34,500 --> 00:32:37,200
And other times you like, I'm 
going to rip this from my body. 

607
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:42,700
If it kills me and hand baskets,
I think thematically is more the

608
00:32:42,700 --> 00:32:46,800
latter. 
And, but it's now for me, now at

609
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,500
least my game feels like it's in
a spot where I'm like, oh I can 

610
00:32:49,500 --> 00:32:53,100
see the final shape of it. 
I am like wrapping up the the 

611
00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:56,400
rules. 
I can see how it's How it's 

612
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,000
going to make the kind of play 
that, I want it to. 

613
00:33:01,100 --> 00:33:03,500
And I think Aaron is also very 
close to being done. 

614
00:33:03,500 --> 00:33:05,700
So I think we're both in the 
once they're done. 

615
00:33:05,700 --> 00:33:08,000
We get to think about the fun 
stuff that is like layout 

616
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:09,700
visuals. 
And then the, a our stuff. 

617
00:33:09,700 --> 00:33:12,600
So we're very close, we're very 
close to just the fun parts. 

618
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,100
So what do you think manager 
about the Tsar? 

619
00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:18,200
God Ryan. 
No, go for it. 

620
00:33:18,208 --> 00:33:18,700
Go. 
Yeah. 

621
00:33:19,100 --> 00:33:21,300
Well if you're like, on the 
verge of starting like an like 

622
00:33:21,300 --> 00:33:24,700
an AR like Revolution them TT 
RPG and like people like this is

623
00:33:24,700 --> 00:33:27,600
like you like, oh yeah. 
Like girls phone app and like 

624
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,500
like a book like you can engage 
on another level with like TTR 

625
00:33:32,500 --> 00:33:35,300
be cheap material. 
It's like the movement from like

626
00:33:35,300 --> 00:33:39,500
book to PDF, you know. 
I would love it if that were my 

627
00:33:39,500 --> 00:33:41,700
day job. 
So a lot of the development that

628
00:33:41,700 --> 00:33:45,600
I do is small Arts projects and 
so whether it's like VR or ar 

629
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,800
and even occasionally just some 
like straight unity game 

630
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,600
projects and so they aren't they
do tend to be like small and 

631
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,800
contained experiences and it 
would be rad if that was or 

632
00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:01,600
aligned with RPG things. 
I also think video games I'm 

633
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,800
going to I'm going to do a 
discourse on your part. 

634
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:16,100
Is a lot of EX our development 
comes either from film or from 

635
00:34:16,100 --> 00:34:17,300
video games. 
Right? 

636
00:34:17,300 --> 00:34:20,600
The VR and airspace is primarily
dominated by video games and 

637
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:25,300
film and I think they're both 
worse at the things that AR 

638
00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:30,199
wants to To do then RPGs. 
And so I feel like there is a 

639
00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:35,800
lot of room once designers, get 
over the fear of the technical, 

640
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,300
it's not that hard. 
I've I've actually offered many 

641
00:34:38,300 --> 00:34:42,100
times to run public Unity 
tutorials for TT RPG, folks and 

642
00:34:42,100 --> 00:34:44,600
I should probably follow through
on that because I do I also 

643
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,900
teach Unity. 
So I like it's an easy thing for

644
00:34:46,900 --> 00:34:50,800
me to just sit down and help 
people with but I feel like 

645
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:57,200
because RPGs are about Leaving 
space for your players to insert

646
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,000
themselves and to really like do
an active game design through 

647
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,500
play and fill in gaps and like 
make leaps between things which 

648
00:35:03,500 --> 00:35:06,300
is kind of what AR wants you to 
do because it's usually like 

649
00:35:06,300 --> 00:35:11,600
awkwardly spatial. 
There's there's like a lot that 

650
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:16,400
could be learned from RPG design
that I think could transfer into

651
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,000
a are and back and forth and I 
feel like that would be I feel 

652
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,500
like it's just a cool space like
I think about like args or a 

653
00:35:21,508 --> 00:35:23,700
thing that I think are rad that 
don't really exist because 

654
00:35:23,700 --> 00:35:24,700
they're hard and complicated. 
Skated. 

655
00:35:24,700 --> 00:35:27,900
But like for people that don't 
know, that's alternate reality 

656
00:35:27,900 --> 00:35:29,200
games. 
But like, alternate reality 

657
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,000
games are just role-playing 
often, right? 

658
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,300
It's like, yeah, go to this 
website and then call this phone

659
00:35:34,300 --> 00:35:37,500
number and get a secret message 
and then, you know, like give 

660
00:35:37,500 --> 00:35:40,800
your login to this other thing 
and that like and it goes across

661
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,400
all these different mediums and 
they feel really adjacent to 

662
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,600
RPGs in a way that I think would
be fucking rat if more. 

663
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,400
Yeah, I fuck with that heavily 
actually, I think that is a 

664
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,600
really interesting area of 
development and I hope that my I

665
00:35:54,607 --> 00:35:57,100
hope that TT RPGs, like, move 
into that direction. 

666
00:35:57,100 --> 00:36:00,200
I'd like that. 
Those two like, forms of games, 

667
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,500
like, interact, more. 
I think you have a really good 

668
00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:08,400
point there with like, yeah, the
limitations of TV film versus 

669
00:36:08,500 --> 00:36:10,600
like, the open space have like 
an RPG? 

670
00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:17,200
Huh, fucking cool. 
So, you know, I think cyberpunk 

671
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,200
is such a good and something 
that was talked to earlier which

672
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,300
is fun and interesting is the 
difference between current 

673
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,300
Cyberpunk, I guess like there is
no really such thing as current 

674
00:36:27,300 --> 00:36:30,300
cyberpunk because like it's 
funny that cyberpunk from the 

675
00:36:30,300 --> 00:36:35,500
80s, maybe early 90s is talking 
about where we are now like 40, 

676
00:36:35,500 --> 00:36:38,100
50 years later and it's not 
where we are. 

677
00:36:38,100 --> 00:36:41,800
So you can't really do moderate.
Like I would be curious to see 

678
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,300
what someone makes in 2024, what
they think. 

679
00:36:45,300 --> 00:36:49,500
Like the year, you know, like a 
hundred years from now. 

680
00:36:49,500 --> 00:36:51,900
What cyberpunk would look like, 
as be such a different genre 

681
00:36:51,900 --> 00:36:54,300
than like 80s and 90s cyberpunk,
which is p. 

682
00:36:54,500 --> 00:36:58,500
Cyberpunk, but I love, there's a
bunch of people that use like QR

683
00:36:58,500 --> 00:37:00,800
codes and things like that in 
their cyberpunk games, which I 

684
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,500
think is like a cool thing to 
have because you can link to 

685
00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:08,200
website the links and stuff. 
But like the AR aspect of it, 

686
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,700
like I definitely, it's already 
happening the future, we'll just

687
00:37:10,700 --> 00:37:15,200
be like our attention span is 
currency and everything. 

688
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,000
We look at will have some type 
of like, Halo or a are thing in 

689
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,800
our faces at all times. 
Like, that's where I see it 

690
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,300
going. 
And having a sigh. 

691
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,800
A game where there's actually 
going to be a are in the game. 

692
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,300
Sounds. 
So fucking awesome. 

693
00:37:29,300 --> 00:37:33,200
Like I can't wait to see it. 
Would you like if someone did 

694
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,400
want to do something in the 
future, after this game comes 

695
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:36,700
out? 
Would you be like, sure like the

696
00:37:36,700 --> 00:37:39,100
app is? 
Here's the thing that that could

697
00:37:39,100 --> 00:37:42,600
be used, like, go for it. 
Like, is that something that has

698
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,800
come up at all? 
Or, yeah. 

699
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,800
I mean, I'm not like because I 
mean, baps not anything, that's 

700
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,900
not that complicated. 
So there's no like like, it 

701
00:37:50,900 --> 00:37:53,000
would be pretty easy. 
I actually, I haven't thought 

702
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,300
about it, it would be very easy 
for me. 

703
00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:57,600
Like, here is the GitHub. 
Everybody just go replace the 

704
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,400
images that are being really. 
I that I probably will do that 

705
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,300
now because of this 
conversation, because I 

706
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:07,900
genuinely don't believe in 
copyright and true programmer 

707
00:38:07,900 --> 00:38:09,900
right there. 
True, it just feels like you're 

708
00:38:09,900 --> 00:38:11,000
right. 
There is like, yeah, I know. 

709
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:12,400
All information is free, it's 
fine. 

710
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,900
Well, it's what's funny. 
Is that it comes for me a lot 

711
00:38:14,900 --> 00:38:17,800
from photography because I 
started taking photographs when 

712
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,000
people in digital was just 
becoming the thing that was 

713
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,200
professional level and every 
fucking photographer wanted to 

714
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,600
Watermark their image. 
Was it was going to save them 

715
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,600
from theft on the internet and 
it's a load of crap and it's 

716
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:33,200
always been a load of crap and 
it just like people are going to

717
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,200
steal your image if they want to
and problem. 

718
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,600
You don't make you make your 
money off of people, knowing who

719
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:39,400
you are and hiring you to do a 
job. 

720
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,000
You don't make your money off of
selling your images on the 

721
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,600
internet as a general rule. 
So like whatever. 

722
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,300
And it just like makes your shit
look bad, which is probably why 

723
00:38:46,300 --> 00:38:48,500
you're not getting the jobs. 
Not other people stealing your 

724
00:38:48,500 --> 00:38:51,800
photography. 
But also like I've made much 

725
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,300
more of a career out of sharing 
stuff. 

726
00:38:54,900 --> 00:38:58,300
Letting people pay me when they 
want to then demanding. 

727
00:38:58,300 --> 00:39:01,300
The people pay me a lot and it 
aligns with my politics of 

728
00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:04,400
sharing things and making things
accessible and like like I have 

729
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,000
a, you know, I have a bunch of 
rates that are charged for 

730
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:11,400
headshots and I always say like 
this is what I charge and it's 

731
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,100
but it's a sliding scale for 
anybody who needs it and nine 

732
00:39:14,100 --> 00:39:16,700
times out of ten. 
Everybody pays me what I charge 

733
00:39:16,700 --> 00:39:19,600
or more like that. 
And it could be cheaper if you 

734
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:21,200
wanted. 
Doesn't actually make people, 

735
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,300
pay me less and I think there's 
a perception that it does. 

736
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,100
And so I do tend to be yes. 
Now that I do occasionally 

737
00:39:27,100 --> 00:39:29,300
program things. 
Unlike also just put that all on

738
00:39:29,300 --> 00:39:31,700
the internet because I've only 
learned like I'm self-taught. 

739
00:39:31,700 --> 00:39:36,000
So I've only learned because 
other people have shared stuff 

740
00:39:36,500 --> 00:39:41,900
in different places, but I do 
feel like I would actually love 

741
00:39:41,900 --> 00:39:47,100
to just be the developer for an 
RPG app and not do all of the 

742
00:39:47,100 --> 00:39:50,100
game work as well. 
Like I have a lot of skill sets 

743
00:39:50,100 --> 00:39:53,200
that I'm like acquired over the 
years and I love doing them for 

744
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,000
other people's projects so that 
I don't because like the 

745
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:58,900
creative work is very hard. 
Yeah. 

746
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,300
And sometimes it's nice to help 
other people make their creative

747
00:40:02,300 --> 00:40:07,100
stuff happen by doing the part. 
That's kind of easy, which is to

748
00:40:07,100 --> 00:40:10,300
say, yes, somebody, somebody get
at me if I want to make really 

749
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:14,400
cool AR jeez. 
I also do volumetric video which

750
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,900
is a very weird technology that 
not a lot of people know about 

751
00:40:16,900 --> 00:40:21,000
but it's like that is Rife for 
RPG stuff. 

752
00:40:21,300 --> 00:40:23,700
Hmm. 
What what is volumetric video? 

753
00:40:24,300 --> 00:40:27,000
It's I mean it's video but it's 
three dimensional and so you 

754
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,900
take like the way that I was 
you'd like I learned how to do 

755
00:40:29,900 --> 00:40:33,500
it was you hack old connects and
you there are software that lets

756
00:40:33,500 --> 00:40:36,300
you use old connects and so 
you'll get you can like put 

757
00:40:36,300 --> 00:40:40,300
multiples up to have a multi 
like a full XT image. 

758
00:40:40,300 --> 00:40:43,300
But you can also just do it from
One Direction and it'll do like 

759
00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:44,700
a scan. 
WOW. 

760
00:40:44,700 --> 00:40:48,100
And then put the video texture 
over the 3D mesh. 

761
00:40:49,500 --> 00:40:53,100
And so you get like actual live 
performances that still have 

762
00:40:53,100 --> 00:40:54,900
dimensioning dimensionality to 
them. 

763
00:40:54,900 --> 00:40:58,500
So they can be in like A lot of 
people put them in VR. 

764
00:40:58,500 --> 00:41:00,400
I think they're kind of cooler 
and a are actually because you 

765
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,700
can like put them in space. 
I don't like VR and develop the 

766
00:41:04,707 --> 00:41:05,900
are. 
I don't like I think it's about 

767
00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:08,300
time single cheese. 
So I still have a developer for 

768
00:41:08,300 --> 00:41:11,400
but I'm not a high person for 
you must come on, it'll be good 

769
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,300
and like 20 more years. 
No, it won't. 

770
00:41:13,300 --> 00:41:16,700
If it didn't, if it didn't make 
its hype during the pandemic, 

771
00:41:16,700 --> 00:41:19,800
the time when we were all for, 
if it didn't Thrive and survive 

772
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,600
like if that was its moment, I 
don't believe that it's going to

773
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,500
have another moment. 
I think what we all learned to 

774
00:41:24,500 --> 00:41:26,500
the pandemic is actually a don't
want to stick my head in a 

775
00:41:26,508 --> 00:41:27,800
headset. 
That much. 

776
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,500
I want to go inside, but you 
know what's interesting is I 

777
00:41:31,500 --> 00:41:35,500
think a lot of people have this 
like, fear of V of, I mean, 

778
00:41:35,500 --> 00:41:37,300
there's been plenty of movies 
and stuff about it. 

779
00:41:37,300 --> 00:41:39,000
Like you're going to get lost in
the world of VR. 

780
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:40,900
Never be able to come back to 
reality and stuff. 

781
00:41:40,900 --> 00:41:44,100
But it's like it's a headset and
maybe it'll give us that good. 

782
00:41:44,100 --> 00:41:46,600
Maybe we'll get to Sword Art 
Online, right? 

783
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,600
But like a are is literally 
reality and you just have to 

784
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,700
make it look a little different 
and that will actually fuck your

785
00:41:53,700 --> 00:41:57,800
brain up like that is I think 
honestly like a cooler but also 

786
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:02,600
scarier that like you like 
because of the way that you can 

787
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,600
use textures and like real 
spaces and stuff like you could 

788
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,200
get to a point where you're like
not sure if it's they're not 

789
00:42:08,500 --> 00:42:12,000
like I mean Pokemon go wasn't 
thing where you could literally 

790
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,700
just see the fucking Pokemon 
dancing in your living room, 

791
00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:17,100
right? 
And and technology is just gonna

792
00:42:17,100 --> 00:42:19,900
get better and better. 
So it says I'm all playing as a 

793
00:42:19,900 --> 00:42:24,100
Pokemon, Tamar that whole time, 
there we go. 

794
00:42:25,900 --> 00:42:31,200
So Tangent, think back to 
something and baskets. 

795
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,000
So you you and Erin are doing 
this game. 

796
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:38,100
It's got the I'm going to say it
wrong because I it's not 

797
00:42:38,100 --> 00:42:41,200
rubbish. 
A well, this is called Ted 

798
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:42,000
banished. 
Yep. 

799
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,300
That is not throwing things. 
That is not a secret book. 

800
00:42:46,300 --> 00:42:48,700
I just what I think. 
Look I think of the animated 

801
00:42:48,700 --> 00:42:50,600
books like the illustrations, 
right? 

802
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,400
Like yeah. 
Like this thing where he goes 

803
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:53,300
like that. 
Yeah. 

804
00:42:53,500 --> 00:42:57,800
But um but what is handbasket 
specifically like what is your 

805
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,200
name? 
Got in a brightly from Aaron. 

806
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:01,400
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

807
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,500
Hand baskets is a it say it 
says, I'm calling it a cyber 

808
00:43:05,500 --> 00:43:11,100
witchcraft Bloodsport, PVP RPG. 
That's a lot of letters in 

809
00:43:11,100 --> 00:43:13,600
there. 
Hell, yeah, okay. 

810
00:43:13,900 --> 00:43:19,200
Yeah, I'm leaning it's the it's 
inspired a lot by how it's a 

811
00:43:19,207 --> 00:43:25,100
Borderland and the mole and and 
shows that are like those PVP. 

812
00:43:25,100 --> 00:43:27,600
I guess also squid game, it just
was less like that's a good 

813
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,700
touch point but it was So the 
direct inspiration for me and 

814
00:43:31,700 --> 00:43:37,900
things like Battle Royale and 
Generator is on and, but with 

815
00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:40,900
because it originally started as
an adventure that I was going to

816
00:43:40,908 --> 00:43:43,700
make for cyber metal 2012. 
And so, a lot of it started with

817
00:43:43,700 --> 00:43:48,800
similar themes about like the 
barrier between hell and Earth 

818
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,700
being broken, but I am leaning a
little bit more into the 

819
00:43:52,700 --> 00:43:55,600
Witchcraft stuff because I was 
raised Wiccan. 

820
00:43:55,900 --> 00:43:58,400
And so witchcraft stuff kind of 
fast makes me. 

821
00:43:58,500 --> 00:44:01,700
Me. 
Yes, I was raised by lesbian 

822
00:44:01,700 --> 00:44:03,800
witches in the wilderness in 
British Columbia. 

823
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,400
It's a wild time. 
Funny thing back story. 

824
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:22,000
Honestly, so you home life, man.
But I do find like witchcraft as

825
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,700
a concept really compelling. 
And I and, and and I think a lot

826
00:44:25,700 --> 00:44:29,900
about like what I grew up like 
do Like I went to which Camp 

827
00:44:29,900 --> 00:44:32,200
when I was eight, which is like 
this weird thing where they 

828
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:33,700
didn't have any like kids 
activities. 

829
00:44:33,700 --> 00:44:37,700
It was just a lot of women doing
a lot of like chanting and 

830
00:44:37,700 --> 00:44:41,000
ritual in the woods and then the
kids had like a babysitter and 

831
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,200
we just skinny-dipped a lot. 
Like that's what I remember. 

832
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,800
I would I remember is that like 
the the central tenets of 

833
00:44:45,808 --> 00:44:51,300
Witchcraft are like nudity and 
chanting, which that I can get 

834
00:44:51,300 --> 00:44:54,900
on board with, but I think we 
all can jump orbit that. 

835
00:44:55,300 --> 00:45:00,900
Yeah, but I'm trying to like it.
Embrace that more in RPG land 

836
00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:02,900
because I'm like, oh I have all 
these like touch points of 

837
00:45:02,900 --> 00:45:05,600
inspiration that I could pull 
from my like real life. 

838
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:12,000
So that plus bloodsports is the 
is the pitch. 

839
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:20,800
That sounds amazing. 
What's like like that one line? 

840
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,700
I'm just like you, I don't care 
what it cost or how long does it

841
00:45:23,700 --> 00:45:24,900
take to get it? 
Like, I'm going to play the 

842
00:45:24,900 --> 00:45:28,000
fucking game. 
What? 

843
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,300
What? 
Do they are aspects of you're 

844
00:45:30,300 --> 00:45:37,300
putting into into Wick in like 
which Bloodsport like so the are

845
00:45:37,300 --> 00:45:40,600
stuff is less fully developed 
because we're going because when

846
00:45:40,700 --> 00:45:44,300
I think we're going to swap 
games so I'm going to hand it 

847
00:45:44,300 --> 00:45:53,200
off to Aaron and get their facts
of it as far as like the 

848
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,500
physical are stuff. 
Are is also a theme in the game 

849
00:45:55,500 --> 00:45:57,300
so there's like layers of it or 
whatever. 

850
00:45:57,300 --> 00:46:02,300
But, But yeah, I'm going to get 
Aaron to hack it, and add, 

851
00:46:02,300 --> 00:46:04,600
probably a bunch of stuff, 
that'll game break, actually the

852
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,100
game itself really leans into 
game breaking rules. 

853
00:46:08,900 --> 00:46:14,900
Because I really like, I really 
like rules to break games. 

854
00:46:14,900 --> 00:46:17,100
Like I really like things where 
people are like, oh how do I 

855
00:46:17,100 --> 00:46:18,500
resolve this? 
You're like, I don't know, 

856
00:46:18,500 --> 00:46:20,500
figure it out. 
What's the fun way to resolve 

857
00:46:20,500 --> 00:46:22,100
it? 
Like that's also as a person who

858
00:46:22,100 --> 00:46:24,100
often GM's, I find game breaking
rules. 

859
00:46:24,100 --> 00:46:26,600
The more compelling moments for 
me because it's where you get 

860
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:28,400
to, like, do something really 
unexpected. 

861
00:46:28,500 --> 00:46:31,400
Active and have a more like 
traditional player experience. 

862
00:46:32,100 --> 00:46:34,400
And so I'm hoping that Aaron is 
probably just going to break it 

863
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,200
to be honest. 
I think Aaron will break it even

864
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,400
if I didn't want them to Aaron 
will break the game through. 

865
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:44,000
The a are there are cheat codes 
already in there and then Aaron 

866
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,100
is talking number of times but 
like we're going to put some a 

867
00:46:46,100 --> 00:46:48,200
bunch of cheat codes in the AR 
stuff. 

868
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,900
And I think it'll function a lot
like alternate and extended 

869
00:46:52,900 --> 00:46:56,800
rules, but then every once in a 
while, I think there will be 

870
00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:59,100
just a commentary. 
Every once in a while, you're 

871
00:46:59,100 --> 00:47:00,900
going to open up your phone and 
look at the book and Aaron's 

872
00:47:00,900 --> 00:47:03,400
going to be like this game 
fuckin sucks, and that's gonna 

873
00:47:04,900 --> 00:47:09,100
put it did, push put this book 
down, so it's going to say go 

874
00:47:09,100 --> 00:47:15,100
outside. 
Very cool. 

875
00:47:15,100 --> 00:47:17,700
Yeah, that's only talking sec. 
I'm super stoked about honestly 

876
00:47:18,900 --> 00:47:22,800
also, which blood sport where 
when you get killed, you get re 

877
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:27,000
sleeved into a weird body. 
Sounds I'm high I'm there for 

878
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,800
that, you know, but does that 
does, in fact happen, you can 

879
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,700
also there's a there's a fun 
little world mechanic, where the

880
00:47:34,700 --> 00:47:38,900
more Pete more things die. 
The more likely it is that you 

881
00:47:38,900 --> 00:47:42,800
can ask the Lords of hell for 
help So there's you can just 

882
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,800
kind of like just like filling 
which is a world breaking 

883
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:47,500
mechanic like you can ask for 
anything, right? 

884
00:47:47,500 --> 00:47:50,300
It's just like your Hail Mary 
ask for whatever you want if you

885
00:47:50,300 --> 00:47:54,200
fail on your role probably 
you're going to die of it seem 

886
00:47:54,200 --> 00:48:00,200
like I with you but but death is
I'm big on the games where death

887
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,100
doesn't really matter, like it 
changes something. 

888
00:48:02,100 --> 00:48:04,100
It doesn't the interesting. 
I think all mechanics should do 

889
00:48:04,100 --> 00:48:07,800
something interesting to the 
gameplay but I don't think that 

890
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,200
death always in like ending a 
character. 

891
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,500
I think death is like a very 
compelling mechanic in most RPGs

892
00:48:15,500 --> 00:48:19,700
and so I realized that now I 
keep making it out making it not

893
00:48:19,700 --> 00:48:21,600
matter. 
So people could like on athene 

894
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:27,200
into really extreme like like 
risky choices that are cinematic

895
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:28,700
and fun and dramatic and all 
that. 

896
00:48:29,900 --> 00:48:32,900
Well, you know, one thing that, 
you know, all of the Sr.'s 

897
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,300
out there do that, I enjoy 
versus like Trad games and it's 

898
00:48:36,300 --> 00:48:40,200
come up a bunch of times in like
talking to some other people 

899
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:44,100
that are part of our show and 
the adventure are getting stuff.

900
00:48:44,100 --> 00:48:49,000
Like that is campaign play, and 
that's fine. 

901
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,600
I ran an evil campaign in and 
mostly 5th edition for like two 

902
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,000
and a half years. 
It was fun but like there's not 

903
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:59,800
a lot of like you could run to a
two-year campaign of into the 

904
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,300
odd or something like that, but 
I don't really feel like a lot 

905
00:49:02,300 --> 00:49:06,900
of the, the more modern games 
really like their campaign 

906
00:49:06,900 --> 00:49:08,100
tools. 
If you want, I don't feel like 

907
00:49:08,100 --> 00:49:13,100
they really necessary. 
Are designed for that and also I

908
00:49:13,100 --> 00:49:16,400
don't have time for that. 
Like I'm I'm too old by brake 

909
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,200
doesn't work as well. 
Like they're things that I want 

910
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,200
to do which is usually doing 
nothing which is also the thing 

911
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:26,400
that is just fun to enjoy doing.
So the the investment into 

912
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,300
individual characters is a 
little bit different when you're

913
00:49:29,300 --> 00:49:31,700
not building, like a 10-page 
backstory and doing it. 

914
00:49:31,900 --> 00:49:35,000
But one of the things I did love
about cyber metal is the concept

915
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,500
of just like save points and 
like you, you just go back to 

916
00:49:38,500 --> 00:49:40,300
where you were before. 
Or get to where you were and 

917
00:49:40,300 --> 00:49:43,500
like, go on again and in a death
metal Battle Royale game where 

918
00:49:43,500 --> 00:49:48,200
you can kind of just basically 
just like, oops, I gotta like, 

919
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,400
well, I fucked up hard, but the 
idea that you can, like, you 

920
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,500
said, just go as hard as you 
absolutely want because, you 

921
00:49:53,500 --> 00:49:55,900
know, that, you know, I can have
to wait, like, you know, 30 

922
00:49:55,900 --> 00:49:57,900
minutes like rebuild a 
character, do something like 

923
00:49:57,900 --> 00:50:01,500
that, or whatever. 
Is such a fun aspect of the more

924
00:50:01,500 --> 00:50:04,900
modern versions of play and 
getting rid of it. 

925
00:50:04,900 --> 00:50:10,000
Because, as you said, it's not 
as I don't know the mattock but 

926
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:14,700
also you know there's cooler 
things you can do than just die,

927
00:50:14,700 --> 00:50:17,700
I guess. 
So it's fun to see that in games

928
00:50:17,700 --> 00:50:20,800
and I really enjoy that a lot of
that that you just don't have it

929
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:23,800
in a bunch of your games. 
I feel like the times that I've 

930
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,400
had characters die and longer 
campaign Play Just Like doesn't 

931
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,800
feel good. 
Like it's like I'm attached to 

932
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:36,300
this character now and so why 
what what fun purpose does death

933
00:50:36,300 --> 00:50:37,600
on a character that I'm attached
to? 

934
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,400
That I've been paying for for a 
year actually mean because I'm 

935
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,000
here to have fun. 
And if I would I as a player 

936
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,700
would rather keep playing this 
character that not then all 

937
00:50:45,700 --> 00:50:50,400
death is doing is making my day 
worse, you know, and like and I 

938
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,200
feel like it's the thing that 
like a lot of tried games and a 

939
00:50:53,207 --> 00:50:56,400
lot of Fantasy games was kind of
like hold over you the whole 

940
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:58,600
time you're playing. 
And it just like that was a big 

941
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:00,500
thing for me with him Bose was 
like I don't think that's a 

942
00:51:00,500 --> 00:51:03,200
compelling. 
It's not a compelling knife, 

943
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,800
right? 
Like it's not like it's not a 

944
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,500
compelling motivator for Play. 
It's not, it's not even 

945
00:51:08,500 --> 00:51:13,300
compelling really to like, Try 
and avoid it all the time, and 

946
00:51:13,300 --> 00:51:15,700
then it didn't it just, it was 
never a thing that really, like 

947
00:51:15,700 --> 00:51:20,000
inspired me. 
And I also do not often have 

948
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,900
time for campaign games anymore.
I also like playing with new 

949
00:51:23,900 --> 00:51:26,200
people and different people, and
so, I'm often playing like one 

950
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:30,400
shots and I think a lot of games
are kind of easier for picking 

951
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:31,900
that up. 
I, the couple times that I've 

952
00:51:31,900 --> 00:51:35,100
gone back and tried to, like, 
play a bigger game. 

953
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:38,200
I'm a really big, like, I like 
to play to figure out who my 

954
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,900
character is. 
So I don't do the like, oh, The 

955
00:51:40,900 --> 00:51:43,500
character creation think like 
even when playing D&D, even when

956
00:51:43,500 --> 00:51:45,400
playing this traditional games 
and like, I actually really 

957
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,600
liked alignment as a mechanic 
because it tells me how I'm 

958
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,500
going to respond to them in a 
moment, but it doesn't require 

959
00:51:51,500 --> 00:51:54,300
me to write a backstory. 
I can like play the back story 

960
00:51:54,300 --> 00:51:56,300
as I'm doing it. 
And give me kind of like a moral

961
00:51:56,300 --> 00:51:59,300
Center for a character and then 
figure out how that applies to 

962
00:51:59,300 --> 00:52:03,600
whatever puzzle or problem I've 
been confronted with and so even

963
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,700
if I am playing a campaign play,
I'm like, I don't I don't want 

964
00:52:07,700 --> 00:52:09,700
to do all that Vex. 
I want a quick character and 

965
00:52:09,700 --> 00:52:12,700
then I want to figure out. 
Who they are via playing them, 

966
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:16,500
Pam always chaotic neutral 
thing. 

967
00:52:16,500 --> 00:52:22,600
Because the chassis like just 
that's really interesting way to

968
00:52:22,607 --> 00:52:24,600
look at it because I haven't 
really looked at because I don't

969
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:30,100
like alignment but I think 
they're that that interpretation

970
00:52:30,100 --> 00:52:32,200
of it definitely makes me feel 
differently about it. 

971
00:52:32,900 --> 00:52:35,500
But I also think one of the big 
differences between Trad and 

972
00:52:35,500 --> 00:52:39,500
like the the newer games I'll 
just call them is the. 

973
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,900
There is like Tell a referee, 
you know? 

974
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,900
And I feel like in try games 
like you need a back story 

975
00:52:45,900 --> 00:52:48,200
because you're telling a story 
and I need to know, like all the

976
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:49,900
blah, blah, blah blah. 
But I feel like more modern 

977
00:52:49,900 --> 00:52:53,100
games like you're more of a 
referee so like, you know, not 

978
00:52:53,100 --> 00:52:57,000
having to know the story all the
time, the emergent gameplay that

979
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,200
comes out of newer games and 
stuff, where you can just kind 

980
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,200
of learn your character. 
And honestly, if they do die, 

981
00:53:03,700 --> 00:53:05,700
I'm not as emotionally invested,
I guess. 

982
00:53:05,700 --> 00:53:09,000
But so a lot of the, you know, 
it's not compelling to die but 

983
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,600
also it's just like you're gone.
So, just roll up a quick 

984
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:15,100
character anyway, like, why kind
of thing, it feels better. 

985
00:53:15,500 --> 00:53:18,300
And even as a GM like I feel 
better as a referee, then a 

986
00:53:18,300 --> 00:53:21,200
Storyteller. 
So it's nice to have that kind 

987
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,100
of like emergence of your 
character as opposed to having 

988
00:53:23,100 --> 00:53:25,400
to write like the number of 
times I've gotten paid back 

989
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,100
story where it's basically like 
I'm the savior of everything and

990
00:53:28,100 --> 00:53:31,100
now I'm a level 1 character, 
it's just like come on you know 

991
00:53:31,500 --> 00:53:34,000
I'd much rather one secret 
Princess you know I'm secretly 

992
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:37,100
the prince of a all Empire. 
My God come on man. 

993
00:53:40,700 --> 00:53:44,300
Sonne. 
I run like a bastards group and 

994
00:53:44,300 --> 00:53:47,500
we were a little Hiatus right 
now but and like I encourage 

995
00:53:47,500 --> 00:53:50,600
them to know that they're going 
to die, but this can might be a 

996
00:53:50,607 --> 00:53:53,000
little bit longer form then 
maybe bastards usually play 

997
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:54,400
them. 
So I've only caught a custom 

998
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,100
stuff going on but like for me 
I'm just like, hey guys, just so

999
00:53:57,100 --> 00:53:59,700
you'll know. 
I I have an adventure in hell, 

1000
00:53:59,900 --> 00:54:02,600
right? 
So if y'all die and you want 

1001
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:06,000
your character back or you all 
die, you're gonna go to hell and

1002
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:07,700
gear character back and they're 
gonna come back and they're 

1003
00:54:07,700 --> 00:54:11,500
gonna be weird, like not come 
back the way they They went in, 

1004
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:13,900
but if you really like that 
character, we can get the 

1005
00:54:13,900 --> 00:54:16,600
character back. 
They just might be, you know, 

1006
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:20,100
gray and have a deeper voice and
the Scarlet will pull in. 

1007
00:54:20,100 --> 00:54:22,800
See that? 
I mean, that's, that's the hand 

1008
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,400
baskets way. 
Is that you just get slipped 

1009
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:27,400
into a body? 
That has, weird character traits

1010
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:29,500
like yeah, but one of them is a 
bog body. 

1011
00:54:29,500 --> 00:54:31,800
And bog bodies are a thing that 
upset me so much. 

1012
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:33,900
But I was like, no, I'm going to
put bug buddies in here. 

1013
00:54:33,900 --> 00:54:36,800
And so there's a chance, like, 
one of them is also like is 

1014
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:38,400
borrowed. 
And because I don't know what 

1015
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:41,100
that means in the context of the
game, but it seems Unto me to 

1016
00:54:41,100 --> 00:54:43,600
think about like what happens 
when the person that your body 

1017
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:48,700
is borrowed from one sit back 
and I feel like, yeah I don't 

1018
00:54:48,700 --> 00:54:50,300
know. 
I feel like I think I think 

1019
00:54:50,300 --> 00:54:51,700
death like, traditionally death 
and games. 

1020
00:54:51,700 --> 00:54:54,000
I feel like is a failure State 
and it's not a particularly 

1021
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,400
compelling failure State and it 
and so it doesn't like because 

1022
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:00,200
it doesn't really Advanced you 
as a player, it can advance The 

1023
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:01,900
Narrative. 
Like everybody else can kind of 

1024
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:05,300
get to Rally around that or 
whatever and I think but like a 

1025
00:55:05,300 --> 00:55:07,500
good solution is definitely 
would you like to go back to 

1026
00:55:07,500 --> 00:55:12,700
hell and pull your body out. 
I would do that 100%. 

1027
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:17,900
But, yeah, I definitely, I just,
I've gotten to this point, and 

1028
00:55:17,900 --> 00:55:21,300
in this is largely inspired by a
lot of, a lot of the reading the

1029
00:55:21,300 --> 00:55:23,400
air, and I do on rtfm. 
But I've gotten to this point 

1030
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:25,700
where I'm like, if you're gonna 
have a mechanic and your game, 

1031
00:55:25,700 --> 00:55:29,900
it better impact things 
meaningfully, that could be fun.

1032
00:55:30,100 --> 00:55:32,200
That doesn't, it doesn't have to
be like, heartfelt and emotional

1033
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:36,000
meaningfully, right? 
But like, if it's gonna exist, 

1034
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:40,800
make it matter. 
If death doesn't matter, Her 

1035
00:55:41,100 --> 00:55:44,000
pull it out. 
If if stats don't matter, pull 

1036
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,600
them out, right? 
Like it's like the, the formula 

1037
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:48,700
of, this is exactly what a 
role-playing game looks like. 

1038
00:55:48,700 --> 00:55:51,200
Which I realize there are lots 
of people that are not sticking 

1039
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:54,300
to that formula, but they're all
still a lot of people that are 

1040
00:55:54,300 --> 00:55:57,500
sticking to them or formula and 
it's like if it's not if it's 

1041
00:55:57,500 --> 00:55:59,800
not going to meaningfully make a
decision make a difference. 

1042
00:56:01,300 --> 00:56:08,700
This is This is the, the my 
learning of Kismet, Kismet being

1043
00:56:08,700 --> 00:56:10,600
a game where you just have a 
central role. 

1044
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:12,800
You have one Central thing that 
you roll all the time and it 

1045
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:16,600
doesn't hugely change the 
outcome of the game. 

1046
00:56:16,700 --> 00:56:19,200
And that's a very enlightening 
thing to play, it's like you 

1047
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,800
have this game that has 30 
different mechanics, doesn't 

1048
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:23,900
really matter. 
Versus this Gala has one Central

1049
00:56:23,900 --> 00:56:27,500
mechanic and so probably you 
should rethink all these 30 

1050
00:56:27,500 --> 00:56:32,100
million mechanics. 
Hmm, Ryan now, I know we talked 

1051
00:56:32,100 --> 00:56:34,200
about This little bit for on 
stream and again and we'll talk 

1052
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:35,100
about it, we'll go over him 
bows. 

1053
00:56:35,100 --> 00:56:38,600
Like I love games. 
Have enough rules to guide you 

1054
00:56:38,700 --> 00:56:40,900
but get out of their own way, 
you know. 

1055
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:43,200
I don't need an entire fucking 
Booker procedures. 

1056
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:46,900
Like, I just need to know like 
a, give me a direction. 

1057
00:56:46,900 --> 00:56:55,200
So the referee can engage in 
officiate with intent from the 

1058
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:57,700
designer and then we'll figure 
out the rest of it. 

1059
00:56:57,700 --> 00:57:01,100
You know, and it's, that's the 
space that I tried to look at 

1060
00:57:01,100 --> 00:57:02,800
from. 
And, you know, The Campbells 

1061
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,200
does a really fantastic job and 
we're going to be talking about 

1062
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:11,000
that shortly after after Laura's
future is, is that just the 

1063
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:14,400
foreseeable future or do you 
have plans for for what's coming

1064
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:15,600
next? 
Is it something else inside you 

1065
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:18,500
that you just have to get out or
or what's next? 

1066
00:57:19,300 --> 00:57:22,700
I was gonna take a break, I was 
going to take a break. 

1067
00:57:22,700 --> 00:57:28,000
I have a, I'm making, I have for
the last year, or so been very 

1068
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:32,900
slowly working on a video game. 
That is just My baby. 

1069
00:57:33,700 --> 00:57:35,200
I have some friends that are 
working with me that are great 

1070
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:40,300
but like it's it is the is my my
main thing. 

1071
00:57:40,700 --> 00:57:42,700
And so I was going to take a 
break and work on the video game

1072
00:57:42,700 --> 00:57:46,700
and try and finish up actual 
play test of said video game 

1073
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:55,800
this summer and then Last week. 
Last week a game overtook me. 

1074
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,700
This game is probably going to 
come out beforehand baskets 

1075
00:57:58,700 --> 00:58:02,700
because it just came through me.
But I was thinking a lot about 

1076
00:58:02,700 --> 00:58:05,900
what, what are the like really 
compelling game moments? 

1077
00:58:05,900 --> 00:58:08,500
I've had in the last couple 
years and one of them is this 

1078
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:12,500
play by Post in a Discord game 
of the aisle. 

1079
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:16,500
Like, the whoever made the 
aisle. 

1080
00:58:16,500 --> 00:58:20,000
Whatever, it's a good. 
It's a good little module and 

1081
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,000
playing in Discord was so, And I
was like, why do we not? 

1082
00:58:23,100 --> 00:58:25,200
It was, it was super fun and 
then it got to the point where 

1083
00:58:25,207 --> 00:58:28,300
it became combat e and it became
this osr combat, which isn't fun

1084
00:58:28,300 --> 00:58:32,300
to do over text and I was like, 
yes, Luke cheering. 

1085
00:58:32,300 --> 00:58:34,600
I was like I said, one of those 
names that are like everybody 

1086
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:39,300
knows. 
But yeah, but it that part 

1087
00:58:39,300 --> 00:58:42,300
became not fun and I was like 
but what if I designed a game 

1088
00:58:42,300 --> 00:58:45,000
that was intended, what did 
games look like if they're 

1089
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:50,100
intended solely to play over 
Discord but potentially with a 

1090
00:58:50,100 --> 00:58:51,700
bunch of different fantasy? 
Modules. 

1091
00:58:51,900 --> 00:58:54,500
So I'm I'm so into this idea so 
far, by the way. 

1092
00:58:54,500 --> 00:58:56,900
Just so, you know, I can really 
really interested in this. 

1093
00:58:56,900 --> 00:58:59,100
I have a lot of disk or groups 
that would actually do this. 

1094
00:58:59,100 --> 00:59:02,800
So it's become, it's become a 
very small thing that I think I 

1095
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,400
will pull an SRD out of it. 
Like it's become a very like 

1096
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:08,000
stylized thing. 
It's become not generic. 

1097
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:10,900
It is I am, there was this was 
based on the wet Grandpa 

1098
00:59:10,900 --> 00:59:12,500
episode. 
We just did of rtfm, but there's

1099
00:59:12,500 --> 00:59:16,300
been a lot of conversations 
about guys having bad times on 

1100
00:59:16,300 --> 00:59:20,600
boats and so now it's become a 
sad sad Spooky Island. 

1101
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:23,700
Game that Or may not end up 
keeping the name Bleak Coast but

1102
00:59:23,700 --> 00:59:25,100
we'll see. 
We'll see. 

1103
00:59:25,100 --> 00:59:27,300
But I think I want to pull the 
like I'm trying to design it 

1104
00:59:27,300 --> 00:59:31,000
intentionally so that it kind of
has an SRD that can be pulled 

1105
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:34,800
out to like, design play by 
post, specifically, over chat 

1106
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:36,400
messaging. 
Not over male. 

1107
00:59:37,900 --> 00:59:42,500
Sounds fucking awesome. 
I'm in like one of these days, 

1108
00:59:42,500 --> 00:59:45,100
I'll stop nerding out about how 
to make game, but with this 

1109
00:59:45,100 --> 00:59:48,100
weird technology, so Wonder this
apparently is the thing that I'm

1110
00:59:48,100 --> 00:59:51,200
going to keep doing, and yeah, 
Yeah. 

1111
00:59:51,700 --> 00:59:54,100
Hey listen. 
Do you have a Style Style? 

1112
00:59:54,100 --> 00:59:56,900
So you just keep doing you and 
will keep fucking read your 

1113
00:59:56,900 --> 01:00:02,400
books and loving them and 
playing the games so hooray. 

1114
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:06,700
So, so speaking of him bows, I 
think we're actually going to 

1115
01:00:06,700 --> 01:00:12,200
get into reading and reviewing 
him bows now, where can people 

1116
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:14,900
find not only him bows but all 
of the rest of your content if 

1117
01:00:14,900 --> 01:00:18,100
they're looking for where we're 
going to be talking about. 

1118
01:00:18,500 --> 01:00:22,100
Yeah, you can find me, I mean, 
on Twitter at Maxwell a And it's

1119
01:00:22,100 --> 01:00:26,100
Maxwell and R.H Tayo. 
It's with two L's even though 

1120
01:00:26,100 --> 01:00:29,300
there are technically three in 
my name, it just looked really 

1121
01:00:29,300 --> 01:00:31,100
awkward. 
And now it's awkward for 

1122
01:00:31,100 --> 01:00:33,200
different reasons because I have
to point it out every time. 

1123
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:36,700
I say, it's inside Maxwell, 
endured stuff. 

1124
01:00:36,700 --> 01:00:39,700
Listen. 
I also think of a crater that's 

1125
01:00:39,700 --> 01:00:41,900
been on our show, that actually 
knew their own did uterus. 

1126
01:00:41,900 --> 01:00:49,000
Yeah, it's just the same thing 
everywhere. 

1127
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:51,900
And I have actually thought 
about legally my name to Maxwell

1128
01:00:51,900 --> 01:00:54,500
endure because of this whole 
debacle that I set myself up 

1129
01:00:54,500 --> 01:00:58,100
with my fucking Twitter account.
So listen, you and Erin both 

1130
01:00:58,100 --> 01:01:02,600
with The Branding. 
Yes, I can't just will settle on

1131
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:05,300
one thing and go forward or just
settle on three things, and then

1132
01:01:05,300 --> 01:01:06,500
that's just where you have to 
be. 

1133
01:01:06,900 --> 01:01:10,300
So Aaron sitter a niche pages, 
are different spelling, it's 

1134
01:01:10,300 --> 01:01:24,700
whatever we need. 
That's what it is. 

1135
01:01:25,100 --> 01:01:27,000
So listen Max, thank you so much
for coming on. 

1136
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:30,900
This has been a fantastic 
discussion and beautiful and if 

1137
01:01:30,900 --> 01:01:34,600
you ever want to run those games
or if you do play to associate 

1138
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:36,600
him, sore, have us talk about 
him again. 

1139
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:39,300
You are always always welcome 
friend of the show to come back,

1140
01:01:39,900 --> 01:01:42,000
everything you're doing, sounds 
absolutely fucking amazing. 

1141
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:45,100
And I'm really excited for where
things are gonna what things are

1142
01:01:45,100 --> 01:01:48,700
coming out for various reasons. 
So, thank you so much for being 

1143
01:01:48,700 --> 01:01:50,400
here. 
We really, really appreciate it.

1144
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:54,800
Yeah, thanks for having me, 
also, join the rtfm Discord, 

1145
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:57,400
because we do do Play tests and 
find play games in there. 

1146
01:01:57,400 --> 01:01:59,800
But we also just yell about the 
games that we talked about. 

1147
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:02,100
If you want, if you want the 
Behind These doing, that's where

1148
01:02:02,100 --> 01:02:03,100
it's like, yeah. 
Yeah. 

1149
01:02:03,100 --> 01:02:06,300
We're listen, I will hit you up 
on this card and we can get that

1150
01:02:06,300 --> 01:02:09,200
Discord link and we will be 
there in my there already. 

1151
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:10,900
I feel like I'm in, like, 80 
discords. 

1152
01:02:10,900 --> 01:02:12,100
And you just have to meet all of
them. 

1153
01:02:12,100 --> 01:02:15,100
So, maybe I'm already very early
so maybe I'll just, I'll just 

1154
01:02:15,100 --> 01:02:17,100
tag. 
I'll at you every time I put a 

1155
01:02:17,100 --> 01:02:19,300
message in Discord and I'm just 
gonna become really irritating. 

1156
01:02:19,300 --> 01:02:20,600
Do you remember this Discord 
exist? 

1157
01:02:20,700 --> 01:02:24,700
It's I will not meet that, add 
tag at all. 

1158
01:02:25,100 --> 01:02:27,200
But seriously. 
Yeah, and you so much for being 

1159
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:29,400
here. 
If you're missing in the chat 

1160
01:02:30,100 --> 01:02:32,600
stick around, we're going to 
actually be reading through him 

1161
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:36,700
bows and if you're listening on 
YouTube or a podcast, just click

1162
01:02:36,700 --> 01:02:39,100
the next episode because we will
split this into 2. 

1163
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:41,800
So again, thank you so much and 
we will be back shortly. 

1164
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:43,400
Yeah, thanks for having me.