1 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,000 Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll Podcast. 2 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,360 My name is Ryan and today we have a very special guest with 3 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:21,640 us. It is Elliot Davis. 4 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:22,680 How you doing this morning Elliot? 5 00:00:23,240 --> 00:00:25,240 Hey, Ryan, I'm good. Thanks so much for having me. 6 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:27,440 Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for being here. 7 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:30,640 So. So for those who might not know 8 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,040 Elliot Davis, who you are, why don't you tell us who, who Who 9 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:37,280 the heck are you? Where my people know you from? 10 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:43,360 Yeah, so I am a game designer and a podcast producer and an 11 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,080 artist that you might know from various places on the Internet 12 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,480 under the name More Blueberries. You probably, if you're in the 13 00:00:49,480 --> 00:00:52,040 TTRBGS, know me from my podcasting work. 14 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,520 I am a Co founder of Many Sided Media and we make my first 15 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,440 dungeon and talk at the table. And you can hear my voice on 16 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,160 both of those podcasts, GM ING, playing, hosting, doing a whole 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,239 bunch of other stuff. And then my games, the ones that 18 00:01:05,239 --> 00:01:08,160 you might know are Project Echo and ROM Com Drama Bomb are kind 19 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,640 of the two other big releases that I've had. 20 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,080 So I always, I always mean to do this and then I completely 21 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:19,000 forgot because I have too many games and they're all on the 22 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,120 floor. But I always try to remember to 23 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:26,320 grab people's games of stuff that I have and I would normally 24 00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:29,560 just not worry about it. But I got the ROM com drama bomb 25 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,600 like like the DVD case. Oh, you got the DVD. 26 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,680 Amazing. And it's so cool, like it's so 27 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,880 amazing. It's I want to it's, it's in 28 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,720 here on the pile. I'll sort it soon, but I wish I 29 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,520 would have remembered to grab that because Project Echo. 30 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,360 So, so I remember like way back in the day when you guys had 31 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,600 first started the My First Dungeon podcast, you guys had 32 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:56,240 reached out because you guys were going to do die. 33 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,480 I think we were even trying to do something, but I think it 34 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,600 kind of fell through. Was that was Project Echo around 35 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:03,960 that same time when that came out? 36 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,440 Well, let let me put the timeline on. 37 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:15,680 Project Echo was 2023. Oh my God, what years are 38 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,680 blending together? Project Echo was 2023, which I 39 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,160 believe was also the year that Die happened. 40 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,680 I believe that I did. Were those or was it a year 41 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:25,880 apart? Oh no. 42 00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:27,200 How many years have I been doing this? 43 00:02:29,640 --> 00:02:32,920 I think it was the same year. I think that Zine month 44 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:42,040 2022-2023, Jesus 2023, Zine month 2023 was Project Echo. 45 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:44,480 There's the DVD. There it is. 46 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:50,560 I'm so happy to see that like out at someone's house 'cause it 47 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,480 was, was truly a labor of love cause the had to get it printed 48 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,560 in a different size. And like I printed the labels at 49 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,080 home. I burned the DV DS. 50 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:03,800 I made the cover slip in. Yeah, really fun. 51 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,440 Great project. Yeah, I remember because. 52 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:10,320 Echo and die were similar time periods. 53 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,320 Absolutely. Yeah, cuz I don't remember where 54 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,120 I I I kind of heard of you first, whether it was project 55 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,480 Echo or or the my first dungeon. I feel like it was project Echo 56 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,280 cuz I remember backing that and even I remember the crowdfunding 57 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:22,720 page and be like, this sounds fucking awesome. 58 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,160 And then I got it and it is it's really fucking awesome. 59 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,600 So really, yeah, really, really great, enjoyable game. 60 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:30,960 So yeah, as soon as I saw ROM com drama bomb, I was all over 61 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:32,160 this. This is fantastic. 62 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:39,320 But but yeah, my first dungeon it's like, yeah, like I said, I 63 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,120 think we're trying to do something and then it didn't 64 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,000 work out and then you guys just blew up and I was like, wow, 65 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:45,800 this is awesome. What you guys do with Die was 66 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,720 absolutely fantastic. Die is a great game that we've 67 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,920 we've read like three times to review on the show, but it keeps 68 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,360 getting like postponed that such a beefy book. 69 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,040 It's a kick ass game and a great book. 70 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,120 Yeah. Yeah, and, and the I mean, the 71 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,160 art is fantastic. The book itself is, is gorgeous. 72 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:02,560 You know, everything about it is really good. 73 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,800 And again, you guys show was was fantastic. 74 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,200 And you've done so much more since then. 75 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,880 Like I mean for those that might not be on the AP side, like what 76 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,880 are what are like specifically for my first dungeon, what are 77 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:19,920 what are some of the plethora of games you guys have gone over? 78 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:25,520 Yeah, so my first sorry die was kind of our first what I would 79 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,360 call like marquee season where we really became many sided 80 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:29,920 media. It became the team of the four 81 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:34,240 of us like all working together. And then we've done some big 82 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,120 seasons playing orbital Blues from our friends at Soul Muppet 83 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,000 Publishing, which is one of my favorites. 84 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,760 We've done. We did Wild Sea earlier this 85 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,640 year, which I got to GM. We just did a season of Paint 86 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,120 the Town Red. We've done 10 Candles was 87 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,520 another earlier one that was post die was 10. 88 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:54,440 No 10 candles was pre die actually. 89 00:04:55,640 --> 00:05:01,960 But yeah, we've done a bunch of really great games and and in 90 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,320 and then we've done a bunch of my games because that's always 91 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,360 when you own your own channel, you get to kind of do that stuff 92 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:09,320 to. Do what the heck you want. 93 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,520 You know that's what we do with you. 94 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,680 And then also, you know, to the table happened as well and were 95 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,800 you did that did that that came after, right. 96 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,840 Talk of the table came kind of as like a natural, excuse me, 97 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,280 came as kind of a natural collaboration of me and Brian. 98 00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:30,800 When many sided media properly formed, the two of us were like, 99 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,600 we really want to talk to more TTRBG people and like have 100 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,360 interviews that you know, we would want to hear kind of 101 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,520 thing. And and so we just thought we'd 102 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:40,760 try it. We were just like, let's just 103 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,080 try doing an interview show and let's like really like give it a 104 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,680 lot of effort and like go for bigger names that are kind of 105 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,800 batting above our like our league and stuff. 106 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,640 And so so, yeah, Talk to the Table has been such a joy. 107 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:59,240 I mean, and I talk about this in the interview Brian just did 108 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,600 where he interviewed me on Talk to the Table in that it has just 109 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,600 Talk to the Table has taught me so much in the last year. 110 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,600 Like I feel like talking to all these incredibly talented people 111 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,200 makes me better at everything that I do. 112 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,080 Yeah, it's really interesting, especially in the TTRBG 113 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,080 community because it's kind of weird in that it is a very small 114 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,960 but very big space. You know, it is might be like a 115 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,200 small number of people, but it's like worldwide. 116 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:28,040 I I honestly think we've talked to more people in like in Europe 117 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:29,960 than we even have in America. Yeah. 118 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,080 So it's really neat to get completely different 119 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,640 perspectives, especially in gaming when you think of 120 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,520 especially, you know, for some reason, there's a lot of people 121 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,880 in like Sweden, Denmark, Norway kind of area. 122 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,600 And the way they think about gaming is just like a slight 123 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:47,560 turn different. And it's so interesting to get 124 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,640 those perspectives. So I can imagine, you know, all 125 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,320 the interviews being, like you said, enlightening. 126 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,800 Yeah, 100%. I mean, it's like, and the more 127 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,520 that was kind of an effort we made in the after the first few 128 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,280 months, we like, you know, hit a bunch of people we knew. 129 00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:07,160 And then one of the things that we heard from our audience and 130 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:09,440 what we wanted to do was talk to people kind of more 131 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:11,120 internationally. And so we got to talk to the 132 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,440 folks, the folks who made Goobut Banwa, which was really 133 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,560 fascinating, and Momados, who is another Southeast Asian designer 134 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:23,680 who does like Arc and the Magus so, so good. 135 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:28,160 Like Momentos is one of those designers where like her layout 136 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,520 is just a master class in every book she makes. 137 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,360 And I feel like just looking at it, it's like I now have like 138 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,440 little tips and tricks to do that I wouldn't have thought of. 139 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:40,560 Yeah, yeah, we, I think we did arc on the show. 140 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:42,400 I didn't get a chance to do Magus though. 141 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,360 But you like you said, her, her graphic design work is, is 142 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,640 absolutely insane. So yeah. 143 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,680 And then and then you yourself, you know, I mean, that's part of 144 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:52,560 the reason why we're here. That's that's what the logo here 145 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,200 in the bottom says the time we have. 146 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,720 But you, you not only do mini sided media on top of that, you 147 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,880 are also a game designer. And again, the first one that I 148 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:06,120 encountered from you was Project Echo, which is amazing. 149 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,280 And just tell us a little bit for those that might not have 150 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,600 played it, like what what at first was Project Echo? 151 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:17,520 Yeah, Project Echo is a solo time travel TTRPG. 152 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,840 It is in the like tradition of journaling games, but instead of 153 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,200 a journal you have a year planner and it is a time travel 154 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,120 game. So as you write in the planner, 155 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,760 you are moving backward and forward in time in the planner 156 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:35,240 as you hunt this cosmic horror entity which is called Echo, not 157 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,280 the Dolphin. Although I didn't know about the 158 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,919 dolphin and I've gotten that on the Internet like 150 times 159 00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:45,560 since that game come came out. Yeah, cuz I mean echo Dolphin 160 00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:48,560 doesn't get like super weird at the end because there's like. 161 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,040 I think it goes to like an alien planet, yeah. 162 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:55,040 Yeah, like it gets really weird, which would make sense in like a 163 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,800 weird space travel solo game, but. 164 00:08:57,920 --> 00:08:59,840 Totally. I just didn't even know it was a 165 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:02,320 thing until I started posting about it online. 166 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,680 And all these people on Reddit were like, can you play as a 167 00:09:04,680 --> 00:09:06,120 dolphin? And I was like, what? 168 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,440 Not yet, but way for the first supplement to project Echo. 169 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,920 Yeah, yeah. And then go from there. 170 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,200 So that's a solo game and there's a theme to this. 171 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:22,040 Just a second cuz then we have ROM Com Drama Bomb which is a 172 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,280 two player game. Three player. 3 Two players, 173 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,280 Yes. Yes, three players this time, 174 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,200 yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 175 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,440 Exactly 3 players. Yeah, so tell us a little bit 176 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:40,040 about ROM Com Drama Bomb and how you went from not one but to 177 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,480 three players for this one. Yeah, sure. 178 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:47,680 ROM com drama bomb is the I like to say it is the mash up of a 179 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:50,920 cheesy ROM com and an over the top action movie. 180 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:52,880 It's like if you just took them and made them kiss. 181 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:58,960 And it is a game where you play two people who are a ROM com 182 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,920 trope and one person plays a super villain of sorts that is 183 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,160 forcing the other two to to act out a ROM com. 184 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:10,080 It uses like no dice, no masters token based mechanics, but then 185 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,480 puts them on a time pressure so that the sort of comforting, 186 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,320 cozy pacing of token play gets kind of ramped up to 11. 187 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,320 But yeah, it was like ROM com drama bomb started with a name. 188 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,640 And then it was like, what is that? 189 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,360 And I came up to this idea of like a Dufen Schmertz esque 190 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,880 figure forcing people to like fall in love. 191 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,080 And then it became like, OK, this is always three players. 192 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:36,760 And that's what it, that's what it has to be. 193 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:40,280 Gotcha. And then the game that we're 194 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,160 eventually gonna get to today that we're talking about is a 195 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,600 game that you currently have on backer kit, which is the time we 196 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:46,680 have, which is a two player game. 197 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,440 So now we've hit 1-3 and two, I did it in. 198 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,120 The wrong order, I know. Yeah, if you would have done the 199 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:53,720 two, then the three, then you could have moved on. 200 00:10:54,680 --> 00:10:58,000 So before we get into that, I guess to just kind of iterate on 201 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:02,480 the theme, what draws you towards these? 202 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,200 Like I want to say like non traditional, I guess for those 203 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,600 OSR people out there, but the clearly more story games, 204 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,320 clearly not for like big groups, you know, again, one player, two 205 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,920 player, three players, specific specific numbers, things like 206 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:19,840 that. Yeah, I, I taste wise, I, I've, 207 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,320 I've learned that I'm really drawn to specificity in games 208 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:27,400 and games that are trying to go after like a really particular 209 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,680 experience. And that kind of goes back to 210 00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:33,760 one of the first games that really like lit my brain up was 211 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,640 10 Candles, which we which we played on my first dungeon. 212 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,920 And 10 Candles is just one of those games where it's like it 213 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,680 tells you exactly what it is from the jump. 214 00:11:44,680 --> 00:11:48,200 It is a tragic horror role-playing game and you will 215 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,520 die at the end of it. And like it is this very 216 00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:55,400 specific tight 10 scene story. And then I got into the work of 217 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:59,360 Jay Dragon with games like Wander Home and specifically and 218 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,280 especially games like Yazeba's Bed and Breakfast, which we 219 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,640 played also on my first dungeon, which Yazeba's Bed and 220 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,840 Breakfast. I like unlocked something in my 221 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,680 brain about games and like, oh, you can do that in a game kind 222 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:17,120 of thing. And that's largely why there are 223 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,160 specific villains in ROM com drama bomb is because he's Ava's 224 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,320 been breakfast makes these real specific character playbooks and 225 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:28,160 asks you to embody them and like not really put too much choice 226 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,400 on it. But because of that limitation 227 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,280 of choice and because of the specificity, you end up in this 228 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,800 very fun, constrained space of role-playing creativity where 229 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,000 you make choices and do things that you never would if you had 230 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,720 the freedom to just character create whatever you wanted. 231 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,040 And so those, this was all kind of a subject of taste. 232 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:54,240 And then I find myself to be a really narrative focused person, 233 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,680 like really like tight, like I'm a huge movie person, always have 234 00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:01,160 been. And I love the tight narrative 235 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,800 experience of watching a movie. And I think that I often am 236 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:08,200 emulating that in games of like this is a this is a one night 237 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,200 experience. This is a, you know, this is a 238 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,520 sit down and do sort of thing. And I think that it comes also 239 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,080 from doing AP. Like I think the more I make AP 240 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,520 and the more I think about making like an arc of a 241 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,880 narrative in a show with games, the more I think about making 242 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,320 games that make that easier for people. 243 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,800 Yeah, it's weird. It's not weird. 244 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:31,920 It's it's an interesting thing to think about, you know, 245 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,080 because especially again, a lot of people in our space are very, 246 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,480 let's call that quote UN quote OSR, even though you can hear 247 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,280 flooding my other rants about why that's fucking dead. 248 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:47,080 But it's very not just the here's a structure of a game and 249 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,240 then an open world and it is dangerous. 250 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,960 Go play swords and Shields and make up, you know, whatever you 251 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,160 want as you go. Like you said, Tin Candles is a 252 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,520 fucking amazing game. I love that we've played it on 253 00:13:57,520 --> 00:13:59,480 the show. We've played it, you know, off 254 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:00,400 the show and everything like that. 255 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,760 It's really fantastic and and games like that. 256 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,760 And like Fiasco is another one that I think is to me is really 257 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,400 similar, like you said, is it's very much narrative focused. 258 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,920 It very much is themes. It very much is, like you said, 259 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:14,840 Tin Candles has those 10 scenes and that's it. 260 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,280 Fiasco has, you know, some stuff that turn and then it all goes. 261 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,640 It's really interesting. And as you said, from like an AP 262 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:27,480 standpoint, if you, it's a lot harder to have someone on and be 263 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,000 like, hey, we're gonna do this open sandbox adventure and we're 264 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:31,480 gonna stream it. It's like, yes, but we only have 265 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,640 three hours, right? So it's a little different. 266 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:41,680 Yeah. So was there a time prior to 267 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,240 that prior to getting into like making project Echo and ROM com 268 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,200 drama bomb you seems like you said where you were more of kind 269 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,160 of like a triad or OSR player and there was a shift or or did 270 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,760 you get into gaming kind of through through that lens? 271 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,760 Yeah, I was actually, I was a 5 E player first. 272 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,520 I I discovered 5 E during the pandemic. 273 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:06,720 I had a friend who had played some Pathfinder in college and 274 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:12,640 wanted to like get back into tabletop and so me and him. 275 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,600 He was my roommate. He's actually Behold who is the 276 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,720 musician I collaborate with and we collaborate with on my first 277 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:24,800 dungeon a lot. 1 of my oldest friends and he, he was like, I 278 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,000 think he'd really like this like let's do a one shot. 279 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,400 And I had some friends who lived in other places and it was the 280 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:30,760 pandemic. We had a lot of time. 281 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,480 So we did like, you know, a 5 E one shot where a wizard is a 282 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,800 sheep. I think it's like kind of a go 283 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:38,640 to starter adventure for a lot of people. 284 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,440 And I just was really excited about it. 285 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,400 I had never played any kind of TTRPG before. 286 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,960 And it was just like, wait a second, like what is this? 287 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:54,640 And then we started running like me and two of my friends all had 288 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,000 campaigns going and we would rotate through our campaigns 289 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,360 every week over the course of the pandemic where it'd be like, 290 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,320 OK, you get to schedule 1 next week, you get to schedule one 291 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,520 the week after. So we had like these three big 292 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,480 long running campaigns. So I was a huge DND 5E person 293 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,320 and then through TikTok and through my favorite local game 294 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,760 store, 20 sided store in Williamsburg. 295 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,040 Great place. I discovered indie RPGs. 296 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,320 Dicebreaker also at the time was doing videos about like 10 games 297 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:30,280 that are not D&D you should check out and Kids on bikes was 298 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:34,440 the first non D&D book I bought. And then it kind of from there I 299 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,680 became a collector and player and I ran Honey Heist was the 300 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,480 first non DND game I ran. And when I ran Honey Heist that 301 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:46,160 was like, oh, games don't have to be DND, You know, it was 302 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,680 like, that was kind of like a, oh, we can play as bear 303 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:54,240 criminals and have like a really compelling, fun, narratively 304 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,520 satisfying experience in about 90 minutes to 2 hours. 305 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:01,880 Like great, excellent. And then I was kind of on board 306 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:03,600 from there with this other style of gaming. 307 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:06,920 That's awesome. It's really so I started as a 5V 308 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:13,280 player as well back in 2014 and I love if you watch a show, you 309 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,520 know that I'm not a fan of 5V for a billion reasons. 310 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:20,680 The biggest one being Wattsy is a terrible garbage company, but 311 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,040 I love people's like like I don't even know what word you 312 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:27,880 would use for it. Like that moment they realize 313 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,640 that like there's other stuff besides 5 E like the stories 314 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,400 that they tell them, like the first game that they had kids on 315 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,320 bikes being such a great game and like the entire like on bike 316 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,240 series or the kids series is fantastic. 317 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,320 So it's always nice to hear that story of like what radicalized 318 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,160 you like what what what got you off the path. 319 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,360 So that's great. And then and then that led you 320 00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:52,400 to eventually, you know, everything that we already 321 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,840 talked about, like the game designs through project that go 322 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,200 through ROM com drama bomb and then to what we're talking about 323 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,920 today that which is the time we have. 324 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:07,120 So what is the time we have? The Time We Have is a tragic 2 325 00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:12,080 player RPG about brothers in the zombie apocalypse and the final 326 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,280 days after one of them is infected and the conversation 327 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,960 that the two of them have before that brother turns. 328 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,040 It's a card powered game inspired by games like For the 329 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,440 Queen, and you play it sitting on opposite sides of a closed 330 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,600 door to kind of get that emulation of the experience of 331 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,960 not seeing the other person and having to, you know, separate 332 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,400 from each other. Yeah. 333 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,520 So it's kind of it's, it's that's heavy. 334 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,240 There's some heavy shit I'm just doing out there. 335 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:40,960 It's. Very heavy and it's a big tone 336 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,960 shift to make in the same year that I made ROM com drama bomb 337 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,760 for sure. Yeah, yeah. 338 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,400 And it's so. And then Romcom drama bomb is no 339 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,080 dice, no masters, which is theoretically Pbta or whatever 340 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,800 Windley, the umbrella that they want to call PBT at this point. 341 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:01,160 But this is a like card game, which is so you did journaling. 342 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,400 You did, you did no dice, no masters. 343 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,040 Now you're doing storytelling card games. 344 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,400 So you're just gonna hit all of the bases eventually. 345 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,680 But but why? Why? 346 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:13,720 Why? Why did you go towards like a 347 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,720 card game style for this for this game? 348 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:23,280 Yeah, so this game idea is in its in its first little, when it 349 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,560 was first a little glint in my eye two years ago, it was a 350 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,400 short note on my phone. That was when I was really into 351 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,360 solo games, really into solo journaling. 352 00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:35,400 And I had a note about, you know, a solo game about 353 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,040 processing someone's turn into a zombie. 354 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,840 Like that was the first nugget. And then it was, no, this is 355 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:47,040 actually a two player game and it's using playing cards and you 356 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:51,160 split the deck like, you know, hearts and diamonds and spades 357 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,840 and clubs and you're either reading them or passing them. 358 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,320 But I wasn't still quite kind of on board with it. 359 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,760 And then late last year, I came to the realization that. 360 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,560 For me to get excited about this game, it has to be more 361 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:06,480 specific. I need to be more excited about 362 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,480 writing it and like really feel like I need to write it. 363 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,280 And then the idea came of like, what is the single most 364 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:15,120 devastating relationship for me that I would have to process 365 00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:17,160 this through? And it was my brothers. 366 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,000 And so I was like, that's what this game is about. 367 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,960 This game is about specifically brothers and the weird 368 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,680 relationship that a brotherhood entails and and having to go 369 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:27,960 through like a hard thing in that. 370 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:33,600 And then at breakout con in March, I played for the Queen 371 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,920 for the first time, which was a game that I had heard a lot 372 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,640 about. It's like a designer's game in a 373 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:41,880 lot of ways. Like I feel like every designer 374 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,120 sites this game in some way as like opening up something in 375 00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:48,360 their brain. Have you played for the Queen? 376 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,240 I I'm not same as you, I had heard about it forever but I 377 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:52,400 haven't got a chance to play it yet, no. 378 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,480 I highly, highly recommend, especially it's a great game. 379 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,960 Like if somebody you're at a con or something and somebody has 380 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,200 it, it's a great like pull out and play game. 381 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,600 I played that game. And what for the Queen does is a 382 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:11,680 magic trick of the rules cards being as soon as you open the 383 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,040 game and you start reading those rules cards, you're playing and 384 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,680 you're in the like magic circle and you're and you're getting 385 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,160 into it. Like you pull that first card 386 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,880 and it says like, go around and read these cards one at a time. 387 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,800 And then the next person goes and then it's like, you're right 388 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,960 in the fiction. And it's like the the Kingdom is 389 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,960 at war and the queen has to go on this thing. 390 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,600 And then the third card, which is this one that my friend 391 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,720 Vedicci Valetti, who's an incredible designer, really 392 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,880 loves and has like totally gotten me on board with loving 393 00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:44,200 is she chose you for this mission because she knows that 394 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,600 you love her. And like that statement holds so 395 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,320 much power and gives you so much context for like who your 396 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,520 character, no matter like what else emerges about your 397 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,920 character and play. She chose you because she knows 398 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,240 that you love her. Just like hits so hard and like 399 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,720 makes this real specific decision about you. 400 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,280 And so for the queen just kind of broke my brain and I was 401 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,800 like, this is so powerful. This is such an easy way to get 402 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,520 somebody into role-playing. You don't have to reference. 403 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,560 I love playing card games. I love tarot card games. 404 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,960 Like obviously Project Echo is a lot of pulling playing cards, 405 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:20,720 pulling tarot cards and referencing things. 406 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:25,320 But when the game is on the cards, you don't have to do that 407 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,840 referencing. And so we also had the 408 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,200 opportunity to speak to Alex Roberts over the summer. 409 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,680 And I got a lot out of that conversation of like what goes 410 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,520 into good prompts in this kind of game? 411 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,720 And like how Alex thinks about the activation energy of playing 412 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:45,160 games and how she is more inspired by like folk card 413 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,640 games, like old deck of card games and the ease of which you 414 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,520 can just pick up a box of cards and play a game so quickly. 415 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,760 Really, you know, got me. And honestly, this game was 416 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,840 going to be a book until like August. 417 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,160 I was still thinking it was going to be a book and using 418 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,520 playing cards. And then I just like was 419 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,480 thinking about the game and talking it out with some 420 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:08,920 friends. And I was like, I think it's got 421 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,000 to be a deck of cards. I don't think this game will 422 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,440 ever like work as well if it's not just cards. 423 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,480 And then I just priced it out and it made the budget way 424 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,040 higher and and I was terrified to like go into this like bigger 425 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:24,720 endeavor. But, you know, as of today, it 426 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,360 has worked out. But yeah, so that's kind of the 427 00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:30,960 journey to to getting to cards. It was like, ultimately this is 428 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,800 the best possible way to help people tell this story with with 429 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,360 the least amount of friction possible to immersion and to 430 00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:41,520 play and to role play. Yeah, that's good. 431 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,560 I mean, a quick shout out for Vidich Valedi as well, cuz blood 432 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,560 beam Badlands is an insane game and I cannot wait for it to come 433 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,160 out with world champ, who is also one of our favorite people 434 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,080 in the entire world. So I, I, I'm, I'm very excited 435 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:54,920 for that. So we'll see. 436 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,440 We'll see when that comes out. I've had a chance to play some 437 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,160 of the updated stuff and it's. It rips. 438 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:01,120 It really rips. It's. 439 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,520 It's so funny cuz we, we rarely on our show cuz primarily we, we 440 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,040 still do interviews, but primarily we try to do reviews. 441 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,120 And we did the, you know, the PDF of blood Beam Badlands and 442 00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:13,360 it was like an in progress. And we don't really often do 443 00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:15,000 that. But when I read it and then I 444 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,480 gave it to Hunter, we were like, we have to like and read this on 445 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:18,720 stream. We have to talk about it. 446 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,240 And like our biggest take away after we read it was like, we 447 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,320 need more of this, like, please finish this game. 448 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,680 Like we will do anything we can if you just finish this game. 449 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,080 So I'm very happy that that is happening. 450 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,600 It's OK, I'm gonna go bully him that this came up after and that 451 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,360 he needs to get to work on on the finishing touches because 452 00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:34,960 he's. Close. 453 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,080 Yeah. Tell him, tell him, tell him, 454 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,320 wrap it up, wrap it up. And then I was gonna say come 455 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,480 talk to us right now. We will be happy to review it 456 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,120 again and play it for sure. But as we said prior to talking 457 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,240 about the card games of it, we talked about how fucking heavy 458 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,840 this shit is and it's quite a lot. 459 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,440 But why don't you? So going through it's, it's 460 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,640 gonna be a deck. It is. 461 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:06,800 It definitely leans kind of towards that like journaling 462 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,320 game aspect like you said, cuz there's prompts and things like 463 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:10,760 that. But it's two people through the 464 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,800 door. But if you if you go to the 465 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,040 backer kit page, which we'll go into a little bit, you can 466 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,560 download the print and play demo. 467 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,320 So go check that out, but talk to us a little bit about 468 00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:28,520 actually playing the game. I know here on the thing there's 469 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,400 prompts, perceptions, infection, those kind of things. 470 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,000 Like what are the steps to actually getting through the 471 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:33,440 game? Yeah. 472 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,040 So, so obviously there's a set of rules cards very, very 473 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,880 inspired by For the Queen where you read those and that helps 474 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,960 you establish what apocalypse are we in? 475 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,360 Like what's the nature of the zombie infection we're dealing 476 00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:47,800 with? Which of us is infected and 477 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,640 which of us is older? Those are kind of everything you 478 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,440 establish. Then the deck gets split between 479 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,320 the infected and the survivor. You close the door between you 480 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,360 and you begin play. And this is going back and forth 481 00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:06,040 in turns, drawing a card and doing one of three things. 482 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,400 One of those cards types is a prompt card. 483 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,480 Anybody who's played for the Queen will very much recognize 484 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,680 this sort of card. You pick it up, you read the 485 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,680 question, the other person answers it aloud, and you have a 486 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,600 sort of you let the conversation flow from there. 487 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,160 If you'd like, you could also play it where you just answer 488 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,880 the question as written and still have a very narratively 489 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,000 satisfying experience. But often with these kinds of 490 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,360 games, I wanna encourage people to just kinda let the story take 491 00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:35,000 them a little bit before they move on. 492 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,880 The other kind of card, which is my favorite kind of card in the 493 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,840 game, is the perception cards, which these are cards that when 494 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,440 you draw them, you don't read it aloud. 495 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,600 You simply pass it under the door for the other person to 496 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,840 pull and read. And these are sensations, 497 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:57,040 smells, sounds that then you have to respond to without ever 498 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,200 kind of acknowledging it initially out loud. 499 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:04,880 And it creates this really eerie and fun and surprising sort of 500 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,480 immersion where like when you are just like in the middle of a 501 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,200 conversation and then it dies down. 502 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,080 And then instead of being asked a question, you just feel or 503 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,600 hear a card get slit under and it says you smell blood. 504 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,720 It's like, oh shit. Oh shit. 505 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,680 OK, now I have to like ask you what that like are you bleeding? 506 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,560 And like, what is that? It's it's proven to be some of 507 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,280 the most fun moments. Fun is fun is a hard word with 508 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,480 this game. It is a very good game, I 509 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,280 believe. I don't know that it is always 510 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,280 fun. It is like it's good. 511 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,320 It's narratively satisfying. It can be very heavy. 512 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,760 It can be very cathartic. There is fun to it as well. 513 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,200 It's kind of weird to like, I sometimes feel weird throwing 514 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,520 the word fun around when it comes to this game because it is 515 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,000 so heavy. But yeah, the perception cards 516 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,800 are great. And then the third kind of card 517 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,080 is the infection card. And the infection card is only 518 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,680 in the infected brother's deck. And these do two things. 519 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,320 So in the fiction broadly of the game, the infection takes six 520 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:08,000 days or less to to take hold. And so there are five of these 521 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,960 infection cards. Each of them signals the end of 522 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,520 one of the first five days. And then obviously the 6th day 523 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,600 would be the end of the game. These end those days you pause 524 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,440 play for 30 seconds. They also give the infected 525 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,560 brother role play instructions to kind of change how they are 526 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,200 role-playing to emphasize the fact that the infection is 527 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,000 getting worse. So one of them, for example, is 528 00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:34,480 the infection makes you angrier. Take the next question your 529 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:39,720 brother asks you the wrong way. So it gives somebody that kind 530 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,000 of permission to, like, go over the top in a way that they might 531 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,920 not if they weren't told to. You know, like, there is a kind 532 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,480 of player who, when asked a question, if it feels right in 533 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,400 the narrative, might be like, I'm going to take this the wrong 534 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,000 way. But when you're told to, again, 535 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,480 this is that idea of putting constraints on your 536 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,240 role-playing. You get to do sort of surprising 537 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,280 things from there. And then the single most 538 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:03,520 devastating card in there is an infection card that says the 539 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,440 infection makes you hunger. You need your brother to open 540 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,400 the door right now and is the I love this card because it is a 541 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,560 thing that tells you to do the one thing that will end the 542 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,160 game. It it's a thing that tells you 543 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,720 to beg your brother to do the one thing that will end the 544 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,840 game. And it is so horrifying and so 545 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,920 tragic. Every time I have encountered 546 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,760 it, nobody has ever opened the door when it's come up and ended 547 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,760 the game. But it is that like you get that 548 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,600 impulse when somebody is like saying it to you of like open 549 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:36,320 the door. It's like, oh, oh, I love it. 550 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:37,440 That's my favorite card in the game. 551 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,000 Probably is the is the you need your brother to open the door 552 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,800 right now. And then there's one other card, 553 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,040 which is the ending card. This game always ends the same 554 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,360 way. It is a card passed from the 555 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,560 infected brother to the surviving brother silently, and 556 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:53,480 it just says, do you open the door? 557 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,840 And that is the final question of the game. 558 00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:00,200 That is where the game ends. It's, it's not, it's, it's fun. 559 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,120 It's funny seeing you smile like real big when you're like, this 560 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,240 is the most devastating card in the game. 561 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:07,040 Yeah, I'm. It's horrifying. 562 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:08,240 I'm a sicko. Yeah. 563 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:09,600 Listen, I'm right there with you. 564 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,280 This is this is fucked up and awesome and I, I can't wait to 565 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,640 get in hand. You know, one of the things I 566 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:21,600 really enjoy about your game design is that like a little bit 567 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,960 extra, like, you know, Project Teco is a journaling game, but 568 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,560 you decide to make it. And not just that, just like the 569 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,360 time travel stop, you're like, but it's in a planner. 570 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,920 Like there's a little bit more. And with this, it's the things 571 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,120 like the perception cards and actually being like, this isn't 572 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:37,640 just a journaling game. You're actually, I need you to 573 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,080 actually sit on two opposite sides of a door and you're gonna 574 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,760 slide stuff back and forth underneath and even going so far 575 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:49,000 as the knock for safety like the the X card variant, which X 576 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,520 cards are great safety tools are great. 577 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,000 Everyone should use them. You're not too cool to use 578 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,880 safety tools, people, but it's always nice when you can use the 579 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,520 safety tool in a way that doesn't feel like you're 580 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,640 screeching everything to halt and everyone's like staring at 581 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,520 somebody. So the the not so so So what is 582 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,280 knock for safety? Yeah, so knock for safety is A3 583 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:16,280 knock system precisely because in this game you can't see the 584 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,200 other person. You don't have a shared table 585 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:19,720 space. The X card. 586 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,560 Well, I love the X card as a safety tool just was not going 587 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,560 to work for the system. You can't tap the X, you can't 588 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,080 verbally saying I'm going to X that would like especially 589 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:30,960 because you can't always hear each other super well through 590 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,120 the door, which is kind of part of the immersion that like it's 591 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,920 verbal safety tools. I just decided we're not going 592 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,120 to work. So the knock safety card is A3 593 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,920 knock system. One knock is very functional 594 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,040 like an X card. It is, I want to move past this. 595 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,360 I want to end this particular discussion or topic or I want to 596 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,920 skip this card. It is a it is a let's Fast 597 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,440 forward, let's move on. Script change is another safety 598 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:56,920 tool that inspired a lot of this. 599 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,160 But two knocks is I want to pause play and talk out of 600 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,000 character about something that happened, make sure everything's 601 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,960 still feeling comfortable, and then we will resume knock, 602 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,120 resume play defiantly with two more knocks. 603 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,640 And then three knocks is a full RIP cord, no questions asked. 604 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,960 You knock three times. Let's open the door. 605 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,640 We're done playing. Maybe we'll start playing again, 606 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,120 you know, later today. But like for now, that is the 607 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,920 full RIP cord on this story. And it, and it's nice because 608 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:33,680 it's like it is a thematic way of, of, of using safety like 609 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,880 where like you have like it's a very easy tool. 610 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:37,520 It's a very quick thing you can do. 611 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,320 And also, like I said just previously, you have like some 612 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,520 cards like the one that I was talking about before, where it 613 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,360 is like you are verbally telling the other person you want them 614 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,920 to open the door, which if a safety tool was verbal, could be 615 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:57,080 misconstrued as like, I'm having a bad unsafe time in the game, 616 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,800 please open the door. But when you're doing that and 617 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,440 you're not using the knocking system, then that gives the 618 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,040 signal to the other person of like, oh, we are in play, we are 619 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,200 in role play. I don't need to worry about your 620 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,960 safety. So, yeah, that's the knock 621 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,040 system. So each player gets one of those 622 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,480 cards. Yeah, and and like I was saying, 623 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,880 just the the thought that goes into stuff like that beyond like 624 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,200 you could have literally just had an X card you slide into the 625 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,320 door. But but making it thematic is so 626 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,760 it's clever. It's so clever to not only have 627 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,840 a a good adaptation for those non verbal cues since you're 628 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,680 literally not looking at each other, but like you're at a 629 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,280 door. So like knocking kind of like 630 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:35,720 feels like the thing you do at doors. 631 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:41,480 So it it really makes sense and then I know, so it says there 632 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,640 are 10 door cards which defines the zombie apocalypse. 633 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,920 So like, what are the different types of zombie apocalypse 634 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,360 ellipsize ellipses that that people could have? 635 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,920 Well, so it's interesting because I, I've heard a couple 636 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,920 pitches from some folks, but ultimately the door cards will 637 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,440 be, you know, pieces of little microfiction on one side and a 638 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,280 corresponding door illustration on the other. 639 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,679 You can choose these. This is another pulled 640 00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:12,159 inspiration from For the Queen, which has Queen cards which help 641 00:34:12,159 --> 00:34:16,040 define your world. And I don't actually know what 642 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,960 all of these zombie apocalypse's are going to look like yet 643 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,440 because I have 10 guest writers and 10 guest illustrators who 644 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,520 are going to be collaborating to make them. 645 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,040 And they're definitely going to be doing it now that we're 646 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:29,639 funded. And I sent them all an e-mail 647 00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:32,159 today that was like, hey, now that we've funded, if anybody's 648 00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:35,159 excited to share pitches, I'd love to hear what you're 649 00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:38,920 thinking. But when I sent the brief to to 650 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:43,320 these collaborators, like I threw out some, you know, wild 651 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,159 directions that you could go. You don't need to go traditional 652 00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:48,960 zombie apocalypse. I was like you. 653 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:55,480 You might do like a magic blight in a medieval like high magic 654 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:56,679 setting. You know what I mean? 655 00:34:56,679 --> 00:34:59,280 Where like magic is corrupted and maybe you're playing two 656 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:04,120 wizard brothers now and that like changes the game entirely. 657 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,600 Or another one that I like kind of threw out there to give them 658 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:13,120 some inspiration was like imagine like the the piece of 659 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:17,000 micro fiction is like a note from a priest about how there is 660 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,480 like a possession epidemic beginning or something. 661 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:25,000 And then you play with the zombie virus as a possession. 662 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,680 And it's I think actually a great way that people can see an 663 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:33,360 example of this is if you listen to the actual plays from No 664 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,640 Quest for the Wicked and a queer PG, because both of them set 665 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,320 their the time We have game in an existing world from their 666 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,440 show and used a plot point to define the infection, which I 667 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,000 love. And the No Quest for the Wicked 668 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,280 folks specifically, their infection was this kind of 669 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:56,600 cosmic horror deity infecting the mind of the infected 670 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,200 brother. And so it was this live 671 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,480 processing of like these impulses in his head to do 672 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,480 certain things that he's dealing with throughout. 673 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,880 And he has these sort of chilling phrases he says and 674 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,560 stuff. So like the door cards are where 675 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,000 this game gets replayable and really like opens up the 676 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,200 definition for folks is that like, you can play the Last of 677 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,680 Us, you can play, you know, I am legend, these like zombie worlds 678 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,800 that you know and love. But like, what does this become 679 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,720 when you're on a space station and you're playing like somebody 680 00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:30,080 who has like the alien parasite in their from alien and that's 681 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:31,640 what they're processing, you know what I mean? 682 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,920 Like it's just you get to bring in so many different weird 683 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,400 angles with the door cards. It's the part I'm most excited 684 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,920 to see take shape because it's also the part that's like kind 685 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,680 of amorphous right now. Yeah, You know, it's really neat 686 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,760 that it is amorphous. I have the list of or the image 687 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,960 of the guest writers and illustrators on the screen right 688 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,240 now, but the whole game sounds awesome. 689 00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:54,480 That's the part I think I'm the most excited for because like 690 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,280 like you said, the the possibility of opening it up for 691 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,000 so many things, but also just in like a design and play sense. 692 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,120 If it was if it was just zombie apocalypse, people would play a 693 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,480 lot of zombie apocalypse. But the fact that you have 10 694 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,080 things that are different makes people go, wait a minute, I have 695 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,160 10 more ideas that I could do when we could play this a 696 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,240 million different ways. Just by being like you got bit 697 00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:18,040 by like a vampire or something like you got bit by a werewolf. 698 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,200 You have the whole plethora of of classic monster lore in front 699 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:26,360 of you to to do it and and beyond, so really fantastic idea 700 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,280 to give the game legs for a long time. 701 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,000 Yeah. And I, I, I know from some folks 702 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:38,200 who played the game at Big Bad Con told me that a couple of the 703 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,120 people who were there when they were playing were already 704 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,200 writing their own door cards after they played it at the 705 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,520 thing. And I was like, that's so sick. 706 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:48,680 I don't know why I hadn't thought somebody would just do 707 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:50,480 that immediately, but I was like, that's so sick. 708 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,560 Like I would love to see, like, what they write. 709 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:53,760 So you're right. Yeah. 710 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:58,280 It's not only options, it's permission to like tweak the 711 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,480 game to your own setting. Yeah, which is always nice to 712 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,560 have if anyone that's in the TTRBG space. 713 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,480 It's like we don't need to give you permission theoretically to 714 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,720 hack shit, but it's always nice to have it at least once in 715 00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:13,320 there. Just be like, sure, yeah, go for 716 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,640 it. Like some people like that 717 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:21,200 little bit of permission. So, and the game is a deck of 718 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,400 cards and I know you said previously that you like you're 719 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,640 a fan of tarot cards and stuff like that because it is a tarot 720 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,560 sized deck of cards, correct? Yeah, the yeah, the actual 721 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:35,160 format size is tarot. Yeah, 2.75 by 4.75 inches. 722 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,560 I'm sure you had to say that a lot to try to get those printed. 723 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,480 Yeah. So as far as the pledge levels, 724 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,200 like what can people when they go back this on back? 725 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,040 OK, right now 'cause like you said, it is already funded. 726 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,320 It is over $15,000 for a two player card game. 727 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,640 I'm so excited. We talk a lot about I back too 728 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,400 many fucking projects and we talk a lot about projects here 729 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,200 on the show. And backer kit is becoming more 730 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,400 and more and more popular and more sustainable as far as 731 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,600 things like that go, because you know, $15,000 for a project like 732 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,960 this is fantastic and it's really nice to see it able to 733 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:12,840 make that kind of money off of Kickstarter with. 734 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,960 But when they go to the backer kit page, what can they get from 735 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:22,960 this project? Yeah, so you can grab APDF copy 736 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,240 of the game for $20. You can grab a physical copy, 737 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,120 everything you need to play the game for $40. 738 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,440 You can bundle those together for 50, which I did have 739 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,880 somebody asked the question about why don't I just bundle it 740 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,520 with the base game. I do kind of see the digital and 741 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,640 physical as pretty separate things because the digital is 742 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,720 also going to have a guide for using a deck of playing cards 743 00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:46,240 that I'll layout sort of nicely like a digital Zine. 744 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,040 So it's a little bit of extra labor that I'll need to hire. 745 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,400 So that's that's why there's that little price differential. 746 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:56,120 You can also get 2 physical copies for a discount at $60.00 747 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,000 in a very cutesy tier called Four Brothers. 748 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,880 You can get the special edition deck which will be in a magnetic 749 00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:08,240 book box with an alternate silver foil cover. 750 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,960 Very minimalist. Essentially, I wanted to make a 751 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,880 version of the game that is an art piece that does not have any 752 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,600 of the stuff that I'll have to put on for retail so that it is 753 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:18,600 something that you can kind of display on your shelf. 754 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,200 The way I put it is like this is the thing you turn sideways 755 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,600 rather than, or you turn front ways rather than put in sideways 756 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,640 on a shelf. I'm really excited to work with 757 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,440 Ripley, the illustrator to design the alt cover for that. 758 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,320 They have some cool ideas. And that special edition will 759 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,280 also contain three additional door cards that I will write 760 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,400 because I have a lot of ideas that I want to, you know, cram 761 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,760 into the game that I couldn't fit into the base version with 762 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:50,520 all of the incredible Murderer's row of contributors for $150.00. 763 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,800 This is the throw more money at the project because you would 764 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,560 like it. But in in exchange, you get a 765 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,080 limited signed edition of that deluxe copy. 766 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,200 I will put a small, you know, signature plate. 767 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,480 It'll be numbered and signed as like a Kickstarter exclusive. 768 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,640 And then if you're feeling nasty, you can pay $500 to play 769 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,840 the game with me. And I think so far my mom has 770 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:13,000 backed at that level. So there. 771 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,960 You go, you gotta listen, you gotta throw it out there. 772 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:19,720 You never know when someones going to just drop that. 773 00:41:19,720 --> 00:41:20,960 Never know. You never. 774 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,480 Know we a lot of projects have been like, we do this out there 775 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,800 because it's ridiculous and we got five people to back it. 776 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,200 So but the the four brothers series kind of shit I was 777 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:30,840 talking about earlier where I was like, you just had these 778 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,320 like little clever extras that just that in all the stuff you 779 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,360 do and even having like, yeah, just do 2 decks like that's a 780 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,600 great thing to have for A2 player game. 781 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,840 And it was I I laughed, I think out loud when when I saw that 782 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,560 too there. So that I'm glad I'm glad you 783 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:48,000 kind of chuckled when you saw that too. 784 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:50,760 One thing I do want to talk about too though, is we 785 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,040 mentioned there's a lot of guest writers and guest illustrators, 786 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:54,920 but like who? Who we talking about here? 787 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,560 Oh yeah. So these are some of just like 788 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,800 names you will recognize from TTRPGS, some illustrators and 789 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,080 writers that I've found outside of TTRPGS. 790 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,440 So our guest writers are, and there's a lot of names, so bear 791 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,600 with me. Harlan Guthrie of malevolent 792 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,760 fame, Caleb Zane Hewitt, who you might know from Triangle Agency. 793 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,120 Jay Stroutman of Planet Arcana and currently working on A 794 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,760 Fool's Errand. Kendrick Smith of Tales Yet 795 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,040 Told. Kyle Tam, known for such games 796 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,400 as Mariah Vediccia Veletti, who we've just talked about today. 797 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,240 Caro Assertion who wrote I'm sorry, did you say St. 798 00:42:33,240 --> 00:42:35,600 Magic? Amongst many other cool games, 799 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:41,040 but Taylor Navarro who made not Yet which was a romantic game 800 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,480 that came out around ROM com. So we were sort of romantic game 801 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,520 buddies. And then Dylan Napelion, AKA 802 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,600 Super Dylan, who is a dear friend, host of one Shot, 803 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:52,640 incredible game designer in his own right. 804 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:59,400 Illustrators, we have Raul Vopato, Victor Winter who did 805 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,440 the villains on ROM com Drama Bomb. 806 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,440 So if you loved Victor's work on that, I'm very excited to be 807 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,400 working with him again. John Gagney, Sonia Hennar, 808 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:15,320 Justin McElroy, No Relation, Connor Nolan, WK Hall, 809 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,600 Evangeline Gallagher and Nadir Noor. 810 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,680 And that's a mix of illustrators who have been in TTRPGS, as well 811 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,760 as about four or five folks who are brand new to TTRPGS. 812 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:30,040 Yeah, I think Murderer's Row is, is the right the right thing to 813 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,160 call that. I mean, just the the the spread 814 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:33,800 there. First of all, I mean, putting 815 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,120 them on the cards was a fantastic idea too. 816 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,360 But between the illustrators and the writers, it's it's it's it's 817 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,680 an insane project. Like in the fact that you don't 818 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,560 even know what they're all doing is one of the coolest parts of 819 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:49,800 all of this, where you've made the game, you've opened the door 820 00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:55,440 for the door cards for for that, and then just brought on this 821 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,480 fantastic a group of people to just make it even better. 822 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,480 So that's, I mean, good job. I don't know what else to say. 823 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:04,240 It's fucking awesome. I'm very excited for it. 824 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:09,320 Yeah. It was a real I knew I wanted to 825 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,480 get a bunch of people involved with this game and I wanted to. 826 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,280 And when I figured out that it was through the door cards, that 827 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:18,160 was great because that is an easy pitch for someone who is 828 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:20,520 really wild and artistic and cool. 829 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,480 Is like, hey, do you want to define a weird fucking zombie 830 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,520 apocalypse for me? And everybody on this list was 831 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:28,960 like, yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah, I do want to do that. 832 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:35,920 No projects funded. Again, it's over $15,000, but 833 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,360 I'm still looking at the back of the kit page and there's room to 834 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,720 grow with stretch goals. So what? 835 00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:45,960 What are we looking at for that? So we are there are going to be 836 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,760 three additional door cards that are stretch goals. 837 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,200 These will be in the core game, unlike the three that I'll be 838 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:55,280 writing for the special edition, the first of which unlocks at 17 839 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,160 five. That will be a card written by 840 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,760 Felix Isaacs, who is the designer of the Wild Sea and a 841 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,040 good friend. And the illustrator on that will 842 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,480 be B Marsolier, who also did the logo for the game, which 843 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,280 absolutely knocked it out of the park with that logo. 844 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,520 And then once we hit that, I can reveal two more exciting folks 845 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,760 who are gonna make a card at 20,000 and then two more folks 846 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,120 who are gonna make a card at 22 five. 847 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,640 And then at 25,000, if we can hit it is my favorite kind of 848 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:25,800 stretch goal. It's the everybody gets a range 849 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,480 stretch goal. It's where I can make room in 850 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,240 the budget to up all the contributors rates. 851 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,200 And I love to do that. I love to pay people to make 852 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:34,880 art. It's the best. 853 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:39,480 Yeah, it's, it's like if you pay people, then you you make stuff, 854 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,640 you know, one of the I, I love, I love the space. 855 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:44,120 I do. I promise I do. 856 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,320 I wish more people kind of thought about it that way. 857 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,600 Not that a lot of people don't, but there's definitely people 858 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:55,560 that make, make stuff, pay people and people will play your 859 00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:57,080 stuff. Like if you, if you make things 860 00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,360 with love and, and surround yourself with good people and, 861 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,040 and creative people, you will get more from it. 862 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,280 And, and clearly you, you make great things and surround 863 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,800 yourself with great people. And, and here we are now talking 864 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,400 about this project that's just funded on backer kit with. 865 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:13,920 So that's evidence of it enough, but. 866 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:16,480 And people want to work with you again. 867 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:18,360 You know what I mean? Like a lot of these people on 868 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,360 this project are repeat collaborators. 869 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,080 You know, Samantha Lee is editing for me once again. 870 00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:25,560 Like I said, Victor is an illustrator. 871 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,520 Jay Strautman is a guest writer. Yeah. 872 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,400 You know, when you when you treat people well, they want to 873 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,360 keep working with you. And I very much believe in 874 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:38,240 trying to make the kind of business I want to exist, even 875 00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:42,000 though it's not objectively the most profitable or most like 876 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:46,600 growth minded. But I like to do business 877 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:51,560 practices that I think are good. Yes, we there's already too many 878 00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:56,360 Dragons hoarding gold in this world, so I'd rather be happy 879 00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:01,440 than than than that. As someone who backs too many 880 00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:05,360 fucking projects, I do have to say I love that you have like 881 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:07,800 you're waiting until you hit the stretch goal before you announce 882 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,160 the next one. It's really nice. 883 00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,200 It's clever to people being like, I wonder what the next one 884 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,240 is. So I'm gonna see is a lot better 885 00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:19,080 than being like here's up to $1,000,000 and and we're at 886 00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,960 like, you know, 10K right now. So it's, it's again, just a 887 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,680 continuation of the fact that you've you're this is a 888 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:30,800 fantastic project and you do stuff in a very thorough, 889 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,720 creative and interesting way. So thank you very much. 890 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:38,200 Yeah, It's, it's, I don't know what to say. 891 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,200 You make good shit. And I'm very excited for for 892 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:44,480 what goes beyond this. So what what the time we have is 893 00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:46,520 obviously going to be on your plate for a little bit. 894 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,280 You still have to do everything with these door cards and and 895 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:50,440 then make your own and things like that. 896 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,520 But what's is there a four player game in the future that 897 00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:57,000 we can look forward to or like what what's what's, what's 898 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:01,160 coming down the pipeline? Yeah, I've been, I've been 899 00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,760 thinking, I mean, I've been starting to think about what 900 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:08,920 2025 looks like. And you know, this was my first 901 00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,240 year going full time into this. And I think that the turn into 902 00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:14,320 the new year is figuring out like, can I make this 903 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,160 sustainable? I've been like pushing and 904 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:18,960 pushing this year. Can I make it sustainable? 905 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,840 How do I do that? I think that I'll be focusing on 906 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,400 some supplements maybe in the beginning of the year. 907 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:28,240 I think ROM com I might do some supplements over February. 908 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,080 Maybe a couple Zine supplements to keep an eye out for. 909 00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,920 Get some people to write some new villains, some new 910 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,280 playbooks. That's a thought existing right 911 00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,640 now. I've wanted to do 2 different 912 00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,520 Project Echo supplements since it released and just haven't 913 00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:44,720 been able to give them time. The dolphin, Yeah. 914 00:48:45,720 --> 00:48:47,480 Yeah, the Dolphin, the Dolphin supplement. 915 00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:50,640 No, I really want to do Project Echo. 916 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:55,840 I really want to do a A2 player supplement where you introduce a 917 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:59,680 way to play as the entity in the same planner so you can pass it 918 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,600 back and forth. Very weird esoteric thoughts 919 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,440 about how that might look. And then I want to make a sequel 920 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:10,600 to Project Echo eventually. That is a much more hopeful 921 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:12,760 concept. I'll just tell you about it. 922 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,400 It's called, it will be called hopefully Project Echo 923 00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:19,400 Architect. And it is the idea that in the 924 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,800 year that you destroyed playing Project Echo, this is a 925 00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,680 different kind of time traveller who is responsible for 926 00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,840 rebuilding time and rebuilding people's lives. 927 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:33,280 And like it's the hopeful response of a project Echo that 928 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:37,240 I hope to eventually make. And then otherwise I'm working 929 00:49:37,240 --> 00:49:39,920 on an abstract strategy board game that I would like to late 930 00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,880 make next year. So totally out of out of RPGs 931 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,720 that that is actually what's really exciting me right now is 932 00:49:45,720 --> 00:49:48,520 I have this little prototype of an abstract strategy game that I 933 00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:53,240 want to make really bad. I that sounds awesome. 934 00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,320 I when you said a two player game or one person gets to play 935 00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:01,960 the bad guy like that, that is really tweaking me there. 936 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:03,480 That sounds fantastic. I mean it. 937 00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:05,520 There are two player games like, I don't know, like Matt 938 00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:07,800 Graveland, A clever girl, where you're like the human and the 939 00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,800 Raptor, which is cool. There's a clever girl, actually, 940 00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,360 yeah. Yeah, there's a game called, I 941 00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:15,280 believe it's Tangled. That's a two player where like 942 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,040 one person is kind of like this entity and one person is not. 943 00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,240 But having Project Echo where you actually get to play is that 944 00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:24,920 would be awesome. Again, the reveal is that it's 945 00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,120 the dolphin, but the. Dolphin. 946 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:28,600 The entity is the Dolphin spoiler. 947 00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:29,920 There you go. It has to be. 948 00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,920 But but that sounds great. I mean, you know, on top of 949 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,040 everything you're doing with mini sided media, on top of the 950 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,960 success of my first dungeon and the wonderful Talking Table 951 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:45,480 podcast, being able to do these big game design projects, I can 952 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:49,320 only imagine that your calendar is full frequently. 953 00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:53,800 Yeah, yeah, yeah. How are you juggling all of 954 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:58,480 that? Oh wow, not always. 955 00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:03,200 Well, I, I work too hard. I, you know, I chatted with a 956 00:51:03,240 --> 00:51:07,360 friend and a very, very designer who is a huge inspiration, Will 957 00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,640 Yobst at the beginning of this year when I, when I first quit 958 00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:15,000 my job. And what they said was like they 959 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,440 and I, and I still haven't pulled this off, but they said, 960 00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,360 Elliot, I'll give you a piece of advice if you can pull it off. 4 961 00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:22,640 day work weeks. And I was like 4 day work weeks. 962 00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,160 Are you insane? Like, I pretty much still work 963 00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:26,960 six day work weeks. But they're right. 964 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,160 And like Will has a lot of really good thoughts about like 965 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:31,280 burnout and keeping yourself from burning out. 966 00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,680 And I think that that is something I have not reached 967 00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,680 burnout this year, but I think that I have gotten close to 968 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,880 touching that stove. And I think that one of the 969 00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:45,240 things that this project funding and hopefully doing, you know, 970 00:51:45,240 --> 00:51:48,800 well beyond funding over the next couple weeks gives me space 971 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:54,160 to break, take a break. I'm planning on taking two weeks 972 00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:57,240 off in December over the holidays to go back home to 973 00:51:57,240 --> 00:52:00,680 Massachusetts to see family and like, really turn off from 974 00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,800 everything because I haven't really taken a proper vacation 975 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:05,200 this year. I've taken, you know, some small 976 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,840 ones. So that's the key. 977 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:12,480 And the key is that going full time gave me the space to make 978 00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:13,840 all of these things happen at once. 979 00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:18,960 Like the fact that my 40 to 80 hours a week is focused just on 980 00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:20,640 games means I can get a lot done. 981 00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,040 And, you know, it's not always the most financially viable, but 982 00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:27,440 we're getting there. And and yeah. 983 00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,480 And honestly, the other answer is I have a lot of really good 984 00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:33,880 supportive friends, really good friends. 985 00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,760 And also I have a really good group of games friends who I can 986 00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:42,120 play storm and, and play test with and, and just talk about 987 00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:44,200 games with that all live in New York. 988 00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:48,960 And that has been really, really rejuvenating and and sustaining 989 00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:51,920 so. I can only imagine, like you 990 00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:54,680 said, I mean, be a good person trying yourself with good people 991 00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:56,880 and you're going to just keep finding more good people to be 992 00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:59,880 around you. So that's, I mean 100% keeping 993 00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:03,120 it going. So we've already said the term 994 00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,320 we have is on backer kit. I'll make sure. 995 00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:10,320 So sadzombiegame.com, yeah. Sadzombiegame.com. 996 00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:14,960 Love that. I know Adam over at World Champ 997 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:19,600 does that a bunch where they'll get just a little URL vanity 998 00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,760 URL. It's funny too, because when I 999 00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:25,680 was setting up all of this, I was like, man, I want to put the 1000 00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:29,000 URL on the screen, but it's a really long backer kid thing. 1001 00:53:29,240 --> 00:53:31,040 And then I was like, there has to be something else. 1002 00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,080 And I went to your, it must have been like your Twitter page and 1003 00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,240 I saw this ad zombie game and I was like, that's it. 1004 00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:38,280 This is this is what we have. That's fantastic. 1005 00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:42,600 So always great to to to have that on top of again, everything 1006 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,040 else we already talked about, you know, prior to the show with 1007 00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:47,760 the thoroughness with which you are prepared for these things. 1008 00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:53,760 But besides sad zombiegame.com, which is where they'll go to the 1009 00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:57,240 time we have, like where can people find more of you, more of 1010 00:53:57,240 --> 00:53:58,720 mini sided media, all of those things. 1011 00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:05,000 Yeah, so you can find me on pretty much every social media 1012 00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,080 at More Blueberries now that I'm not really on Twitter, 1013 00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:11,680 Instagram, Blue Sky, TikTok, Tumblr. 1014 00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,440 Actually, I might be more bloops on Tumblr, but I'm most active 1015 00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:18,040 on Blue Sky and TikTok. On TikTok, I mostly talk about 1016 00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:20,040 my stuff. Sometimes I talk about other 1017 00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:23,120 games and stuff. I'll talk about the process of 1018 00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:24,560 being a game designer here and there. 1019 00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:27,360 But I've been a little bit, it's been a little one note on my 1020 00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:31,160 TikTok lately because I've been promoting a crowdfunder and you 1021 00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:35,320 can hear me once again my first dungeon and talk at the table 1022 00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:38,600 wherever you get your podcasts. And we have a new show coming 1023 00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,000 out tomorrow. Bitcherton starts releasing new 1024 00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,080 episodes, which is not a games podcast. 1025 00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:47,000 It is an improvised Regency podcast and I'm very, very 1026 00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:48,440 excited to see what people think of that. 1027 00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:50,000 I'm not on that, but I produce it. 1028 00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:54,680 Yeah, because not only do you do you do everything you've already 1029 00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:56,800 said, but you're a producer on top of everything else. 1030 00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,920 So you just have all of all, of all the fingers and all the pies 1031 00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:01,800 there. Last question, what? 1032 00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:04,680 Why more blueberries? Why were there not enough 1033 00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:05,760 blueberries before? Where? 1034 00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:09,760 Where did? So this is a this is a small 1035 00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,560 story. Long story short, I was in 1036 00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:15,800 college and a friend of mine and I were in a class where we 1037 00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,800 couldn't really talk much and we had a carton of blueberries and 1038 00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:23,000 we ate them very quickly because they were particularly good. 1039 00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:27,400 And my friend flipped over the carton and wrote quickly in pen, 1040 00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:29,440 more blueberries on the back of the carton. 1041 00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:32,560 I took a picture of it. I posted on my Instagram. 1042 00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,520 And then something broke in my brain where I decided that I 1043 00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:40,160 needed to post the words more blueberries in some fashion on 1044 00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:43,920 my Instagram every day for like a year. 1045 00:55:44,240 --> 00:55:47,320 And I taught myself Photoshop. I got into photography. 1046 00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:51,680 I started doing that to do that. And it was just a big like kick 1047 00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,000 off to my artistic journey. And then when I had to make a 1048 00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:57,440 website for a class in college, it was more blueberries.com. 1049 00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:01,360 And then it was kind of cemented as a personal brand and it's 1050 00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:05,600 stuck with me ever since. Well, listen, if anything's 1051 00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:08,640 gonna do it, I'm glad that the blueberry has got you on the 1052 00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:13,520 path to where we are today. So hey, listen, it was so nice 1053 00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:15,280 talking to you. I'm I'm very glad that you were 1054 00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:17,240 able to come on the show and we got to talk about this fantastic 1055 00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:18,480 game. So thank you so much. 1056 00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:22,080 Yeah, thank you so much. This was really a great easy 1057 00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:23,000 chat. Super fun. 1058 00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:27,440 Thanks for giving me the space. Yeah, let's let have this be the 1059 00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:30,800 only time next time you have something coming down, Dolphin 1060 00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:32,560 supplement and everything, I would love to have you back on. 1061 00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:34,360 So, so let's set that up for the future. 1062 00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,320 But again, thank you and thank you everyone listening out 1063 00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:39,000 there. You can find us the same place 1064 00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,160 you always do. The links are where they always 1065 00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:43,360 are. And that'll be us for today. 1066 00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:45,360 We will see you later. Bye.