1 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:17,440 Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll Podcast. 2 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:21,760 My name is Ryan. And I'm as happy as a lich with 3 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,400 Berry's. And joining us today is a very 4 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:27,480 special guest that is John Saha. How you doing today? 5 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:29,320 I'm good. It's nice to be here. 6 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:30,960 Yeah. Thanks for coming. 7 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,080 On the We've only been actually talking for almost 45 minutes 8 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,960 before this started, but we actually hit the go live button, 9 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,400 so here we are. So for those who might not know 10 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:41,680 know you who? Who the heck are you and what 11 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,360 might people know you in the TJRG space for? 12 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:46,640 Yeah, probably. Most people know me for Goblins 13 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,480 and Gardens, which is kind of the over the umbrella name for 14 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,600 most of what I've been working on, but primarily the tarot deck 15 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,400 that I made. This was a COVID project started 16 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,400 in 2020. Yeah, there it is. 17 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:05,319 And launched A Kickstarter for it in I think 2022 if I remember 18 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,160 right. And that is a tarot deck like a, 19 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:14,920 it's structured like a classic tarot deck and 78 cards, but a 20 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:16,120 lot of the symbols have been changed. 21 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:17,720 It's all collage. So it's all stuff has been 22 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:22,560 collage from old D&D books, specifically stuff from AD and D 23 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,240 It's got, yeah, nice gold foil on the on the edges there. 24 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,560 And then the other half of what I was pulling from there for the 25 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:34,240 source material was collage stuff for gardening 26 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,920 encyclopedias. And that started because I found 27 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,200 one on the side of the road when I was walking home from work. 28 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:46,600 And it ended up sitting next to a Monster Manual from AD and D 29 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,600 for a little while on my desk. And then I was bored because 30 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,120 COVID and I started cutting them up and people started liking it. 31 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:55,240 They reacted to it online really positively. 32 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,720 Back when I feel like Instagram still had like some level of 33 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,400 organic growth. Do it in connection, you know. 34 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,440 And so when it started to catch a little bit of attention, I 35 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,280 just rolled it and made a whole deck. 36 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,280 And then, yeah, watching the Kickstarter, it wasn't it 37 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:14,880 didn't, it wasn't a great Kickstarter. 38 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,720 It funded just barely. It was a lot of anxiety in it. 39 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:23,320 It was my first one. And then after that I made a 40 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:27,800 game called Taro Goons, which is like not as popular as some 41 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,920 people know about it though. And that's a hack from Nate's 42 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,560 Treme, right? I think I saw recently. 43 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,240 Treme I was corrected. Treme Yeah, both ways you were. 44 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:37,360 Right, the whole. Time. 45 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:37,960 Yeah, I. Was right. 46 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:39,440 The whole time. And then someone told me this 47 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,000 dream and then I immediately got a message. 48 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,000 So it's like actually when they were on another podcast, they 49 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:44,000 said Treme. So I was like. 50 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,920 Dang it. Yeah, of course. 51 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,400 Yeah, Total Goons is great. I mean, that kind of stuff is 52 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,640 that's my jam. Like stuff that is simple and 53 00:02:51,640 --> 00:02:55,120 weird, you know, that's got like these great little prompts like 54 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,000 you did the the episode with what was the module that you did 55 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:04,360 the Lich or not the Lich Barrow. Oh yeah, the Barrow of the Elf. 56 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:05,160 King. Elf King. 57 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,320 OK, yeah, that's great. The perfect example of the kind 58 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:09,600 of stuff I like to make him play. 59 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,920 You know where you leave all these different good spaces? 60 00:03:12,920 --> 00:03:15,800 There's Lich right there. You leave all these good spaces 61 00:03:16,920 --> 00:03:21,320 for, you know, characters and players and, and dungeon masters 62 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,560 or whatever to, to insert stuff. And then you got good prompts 63 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,520 around it. You got a good trellis for, for 64 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,360 the vines to grow. And yeah, that's mostly what I'm 65 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,720 known for. I, I, I'm not, I don't, I don't 66 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,680 think as like fully immersed in the in the role-playing game 67 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:39,520 scene as a lot of other creators you probably have had on the 68 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:41,160 show. Like a lot of my stuff ends up 69 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,920 being like this a bit more of on the periphery. 70 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:47,360 It intersects in a much different circles though, right? 71 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,880 Cuz like witchcraft, people will kind of get into it, Tarot 72 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,440 people will get into it, people are just like gardening will get 73 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,520 into it. And then obviously people that 74 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:56,920 like DND and other role-playing games will get into it as well. 75 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,800 Yeah, yeah. I will say I think I discovered 76 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:07,040 you 100% from Instagram. I think with like the videos of 77 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,360 you actually doing the exactly on my cutouts. 78 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,480 Oh yeah, yeah, all. The stuff and I I know that the 79 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,560 first thing that I was like, all right, this is this is it is the 80 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,000 the card that I held up the devil card with the the the lich 81 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,640 for the. Lich and yeah, and the 82 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:24,680 strawberries. Because that's my favorite piece 83 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,920 of D&D art ever. The Trampier lich is it's. 84 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,600 Good Trampier is so good. Yeah, So, yeah. 85 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:31,160 Good. So that. 86 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:32,640 Yeah. So I think this piece, I was 87 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,360 like, Yep, I like this guy. This is it. 88 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,600 And then Yep, I got like the pin I got. 89 00:04:37,840 --> 00:04:40,280 Then I saw tarot goons. It was like, yeah, there we go. 90 00:04:41,280 --> 00:04:44,080 Yeah. And it kind of it's kind of gone 91 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:50,160 from there because then you did, I mean, well, this is an old 92 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:51,320 thing, then we'll get into the current thing. 93 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,560 But you have the the Dungeon Wilds hand hand put together 94 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:57,840 version. Yeah, yeah. 95 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,880 Those videos that you how you found me, the cut them up 96 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,880 videos, the like time lapse videos, those were great because 97 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:06,480 like for the most part, people didn't really care too much 98 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,280 about them until I actually like showed the book, like the cover 99 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:11,840 being peeled off and the people lost their fucking minds. 100 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:16,200 People got real upset, which was is great for content, you know, 101 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,560 because then all of a sudden it's getting shared and people 102 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:20,240 are like, have you never heard of a photocopier? 103 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,400 Like how dare you? You know, it's like, yeah, no, 104 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:25,920 explain a photocopier to me. Also, this is my book. 105 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:27,920 I'm not coming into your house and grabbing your shit, right? 106 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:29,720 I'm not going to, I'm not going to cut up your book. 107 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,440 Listen, ADD is sacred. There's not a million. 108 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,520 Houses that exist in the world. Love how precious people are 109 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,920 about shit like that's so funny. And like most of the books I 110 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,160 have are in shit condition and I purposely buy those ones because 111 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,680 like, they're not getting used. They're like water damaged and 112 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,640 colored on and drawn on and stuff and torn up and like, you 113 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:49,920 know, they're all aged. And it's like, yeah, give me 114 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,800 that stuff. Like let let me be the the sort 115 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:54,520 of like zookeeper for all those things. 116 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:56,600 It's crazy. There's those people that do 117 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,240 like the they take pennies and carve different faces into it 118 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,560 and people freak the fuck out. I'm like, it's a penny, it's 119 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,440 useless. There's a million of them and 120 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:05,520 it's completely legal. Yeah. 121 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:06,760 They don't even make them anymore. 122 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,720 Yeah, so. All right, Peter Penny. 123 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:11,720 Yeah, yeah, let's, let's pour one out. 124 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,840 For a fallen soldier, you know. It's so great when I lived in 125 00:06:14,840 --> 00:06:17,560 Ireland, which was so much better than living here. 126 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:19,680 It really. Yeah, yeah. 127 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,440 But yeah, I'm pretty sure they have one penny and a 2 penny. 128 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,920 But at almost every store you went to, if it was within one or 129 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,280 two above or below, it just auto rounded. 130 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,720 So like if you had like if it was like 98 cents or whatever, 131 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,280 it was just a euro and there's no like sales tax or anything. 132 00:06:37,280 --> 00:06:39,560 So you would literally just go there's a euro. 133 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,160 And because it was all calculated in and they just 134 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:43,840 rounded it off. So it was like the easiest thing 135 00:06:43,840 --> 00:06:45,960 ever. Yeah, someday we'll be there. 136 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:47,200 Not. No. 137 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:52,040 Absolutely. But progress y'all time moving 138 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,200 forward means progress is always happening, right? 139 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:55,680 Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 140 00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:01,800 Anyways, Dungeon Wild. Yeah, we can talk about Dungeon 141 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:02,760 Wild. That's the current project, 142 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,320 right? Well, well, well, before we get 143 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,400 to the current, I guess iteration of Dungeon wild, why 144 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,200 don't we talk about the the old version? 145 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:13,200 Because what I'm holding my hands is version one point O So 146 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,680 what was the when did this come about? 147 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:18,680 I know the tarot deck you said was a COVID project. 148 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,680 I COVID was an awful thing. Still is an awful thing still 149 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:23,360 exists. I literally just got vaccinated 150 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,360 like yesterday. But I will say the one very 151 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:31,240 small silver lining from all of it is the indie game boom post 152 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:31,720 COVID. A lot. 153 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,320 What a lot of people made during COVID and then put out like 154 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,440 20/21/20 and 22 is a lot of great, great, great stuff. 155 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,520 You know, one of which being your tarot deck. 156 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:43,680 But yeah, when it when it done a while ago. 157 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,800 Dungeon Wilds came out so it started about two years ago. 158 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,520 So that would have been the summer of 2023. 159 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,120 And that one that you have in your hands, the the version one 160 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,440 point O the self-made, the self bound copy I think came out 161 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,680 November of that year. It was like right before the 162 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:08,720 winter, early winter for sure. And that came out of sort of two 163 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:10,360 things at once. I was working. 164 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,520 So I'm a groundskeeper now, I'm a gardener and which is wasn't 165 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:15,680 the original plan when I, when I started all this stuff, but 166 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:17,880 that's where I am now. It's just a coincidental in its 167 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:19,880 own way. But at that time I was working 168 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,880 as I was working in the kitchen at the university. 169 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,680 And because the, because the facility's maintenance is part 170 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:28,320 of the same union at the university, I was able to 171 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,920 transfer to my job now. But for that summer gig, we were 172 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:38,080 hauling out a bunch a ton, like probably hundreds and hundreds 173 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,280 of $1000 worth of kitchen equipment out of this old 174 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:41,480 building. It's going to be torn down on 175 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:43,640 campus. It's kind of a shit job, 176 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:45,600 honestly. My friend and I were doing it, 177 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,120 my best friend that I work with, and it was interesting though, 178 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,120 because we got to see a bunch of old parts of these buildings 179 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,200 that we weren't really Privy to otherwise. 180 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:54,920 And so it really felt like exploring dungeons. 181 00:08:55,560 --> 00:08:59,880 We had a lot of downtime down there and some weird dank 182 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:02,720 subfloors. And we ended up playing a lot of 183 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:04,760 rummy. And I kind of got to a point 184 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:06,000 where I was like, OK, this is great. 185 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:08,640 What I kind of want to do something else to this, like, 186 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,600 what's let's make up a game, let's come up with something 187 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:12,960 else. We've got so much time done 188 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,480 here. And then I could be playing a 189 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,680 week till later. I take Paul. 190 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:20,920 She walked away. And so I'm sitting there like, I 191 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:22,400 was like, I can't play this by myself. 192 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:24,040 And I was like, wait, can I play this by myself? 193 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:27,720 And then I started like laying down cards to see like, oh, what 194 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,960 if I had to do something to reveal these like face down 195 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:32,440 cards? What if that was my goal? 196 00:09:32,680 --> 00:09:33,840 And so I started tinkering with that. 197 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:35,960 And that's kind of how Dungeon Wild started. 198 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:37,680 And then I was like, OK, well, what if I have health? 199 00:09:37,680 --> 00:09:39,680 What if I have hit points? Like how can I lose health? 200 00:09:39,680 --> 00:09:41,520 And it just kind of grew from there, honestly. 201 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:43,600 And so I started playing it with my wife and my other friend 202 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,280 Kyle, and it grew real naturally. 203 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,040 Like we would just kind of come up with like, oh, are there 204 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,440 other monsters down here, right? Or can you buy items? 205 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:53,760 Right? What happens when you die? 206 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,760 Like what are what's, what differentiates one floor from 207 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:58,640 the other? So it was really conversational, 208 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,280 honestly, is how it started. Yeah. 209 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,800 And it's a it's a thing that the nice part about this project is 210 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:08,880 that I'm kind of just one person working on it. 211 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:11,520 And the nice part about it is that like occasionally I can 212 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:13,880 leave that behind because I haven't really done a lot of 213 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,320 game writing, especially stuff that's not role-playing games, 214 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,640 like still just more of a board game, like tabletop game. 215 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,160 I can leave that behind and go and illustrate, which is a 216 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,000 really nice part of it because like I'll burn out sometimes on 217 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,840 like the writing or the design or the layout or whatever it is. 218 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,880 And I can kind of just shut that down and put it away and keep 219 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:34,560 working on the project while like very much shutting off a 220 00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:36,480 different part of my brain. I'm like, I'm exhausted. 221 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,520 I can't look at text any longer. Like I can't see the forest of 222 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:41,400 the trees on this. I can just go and draw for the 223 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,080 project. That's kind of the other half of 224 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:45,640 Dungeon Wilds is the illustrations. 225 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,480 Yeah, I was going to say because we haven't talked about that at 226 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,200 all because the Tarot deck is all colleges, but your 227 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,960 illustrations, like you are, are incredible. 228 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:54,880 What? Where? 229 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,480 No, thank you. I guess when and where did the 230 00:10:57,560 --> 00:10:59,880 illustrating start, You know, come in? 231 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:05,240 I mean, so I've all that's I've always drawn right, like from a 232 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,400 very young age was encouraged by my parents and I, I, I have been 233 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,400 in and out of art school, do do have a bachelor's in Fine Arts 234 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:16,920 and, and the debt to show it. But like, I think, and I've 235 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,160 worked on like sculpture, I've worked on like graphic design, 236 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,160 I've worked in, you know, like some ceramic stuff and like 237 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,200 metals and jewelry. But like, I think drawing has 238 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:25,680 been a constant. It's been a thing that I've 239 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:30,240 always kind of come back to and it's it's a thing that kind of 240 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,520 just sprang up naturally in regards to dungeon Wilds because 241 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:36,880 we were starting to talk about we were starting to populate 242 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:38,160 this world as we were playing it, right? 243 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,760 It was very quickly becoming more than just a card game. 244 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,240 We're like, OK, so there's some role-playing element to this, or 245 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,280 at least there's some storytelling element to this. 246 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,560 And so the drawing kind of came about naturally. 247 00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:51,520 So it's like, oh, some of these characters kind of neat faces or 248 00:11:51,560 --> 00:11:54,440 I kind of wonder like what this world looks like if it is a 249 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,800 dungeon that's gone, that's grown wild, right? 250 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,000 So like, you know, what kind of fruits would be there? 251 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:00,960 What kind of trees would be there, this kind of stuff. 252 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,720 The very first card that I drew though was my cat, because I 253 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:09,440 drew a picture of her sitting on our our our dining or living 254 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,560 room floor looking like a total menace. 255 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,560 And under the lamp and the. Yeah, yeah, she's a shopkeeper. 256 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:18,280 I love that. Thanks. 257 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,920 Yeah, that that, that card, it was kind of what kicked it off 258 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,880 as far as like moving into illustrating the courts like the 259 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,360 Jacks, the Queens and the Kings. Because I came back later and 260 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:35,240 drew a separate, I drew a bookcase and then the lamp after 261 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:36,680 that. And I did a thing that I 262 00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:39,080 actually have not really done in illustrating, which is where I 263 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,680 scanned them all in to my computer and digitized it. 264 00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:44,920 And then like brought those three things together to make 265 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,400 like her sitting underneath the lamp with the bookcase behind 266 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,320 her, which is like a natural thing for an illustrator to do. 267 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,280 I've just never really done it before, honestly. 268 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:58,560 Like so, so much of my design work has been like working in 269 00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:00,760 the physical, right? Like with the collage stuff. 270 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,840 Like none of the collage stuff was edited after I scanned it 271 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:05,440 all in. I mean, I had changed some of 272 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,680 the colors on it, but like none of it was moved around. 273 00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:12,640 So like this was the first time that I had kind of stepped, I 274 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,640 don't know, stepped up like my game as far as illustrating 275 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,160 goes. Definitely like tried something 276 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:18,960 new. I was like, dude, because I felt 277 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:20,640 like I was just going to cheap in the thing. 278 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,040 I'm so used to not doing it like this, but like illustrating and 279 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,520 then digitizing it and then like finalizing it actually became a 280 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:29,640 thing that really helped my brain in this project. 281 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,000 So I was like able to kind of stretch my legs and make 282 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,040 mistakes and try new character designs that I hadn't drawn 283 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,600 before. And once that kind of clicked, I 284 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:40,920 was like, oh, this whole new world is opened up where I can 285 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,000 like kind of just wing it on some of these, like character 286 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:49,320 creation illustrations. Yeah, that's a lot, a lot of a 287 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,560 lot of that came to life like very, very organically. 288 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,480 That's very cool. I love the illustrations in 289 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,200 this. I love the very odd ones at the 290 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,040 very front end of Dungeon. Wild swell. 291 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,640 I like the the eye looking up with just two legs connected to 292 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:06,520 it. Yeah, yeah, the the the monsters 293 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,160 that kind of greet you at the beginning of the game. 294 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:13,120 Yeah, yeah, a lot of this stuff is definitely inspired by like, 295 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:17,240 yeah, I mean, because how do I say this? 296 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,720 Oh, I like when the narrative doesn't have to be there before 297 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:22,320 the art is right. Like I'll just kind of 298 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,400 illustrate the thing and and the narrative will follow after the 299 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,680 fact. It's probably a better way to 300 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,120 say that, but it's a. Great way to say that. 301 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:30,400 I think that I think that worked well. 302 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:35,720 Yeah. And then for so so so there is a 303 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,080 version of Dungeon Wilds that exists and there's currently a 304 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,000 version that is crowdfunding that they are different. 305 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,360 It's version one, version 2, maybe eventually version 3. 306 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:50,400 But before we hop into that, what so for for So what is 307 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,600 Dungeon Wilds like if someone's hopping into it like, you know, 308 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,920 it's card game, you know, you're talking about TTRBG writing. 309 00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:59,680 We're talking about role-playing and the. 310 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,200 Art pitches. Your game, yeah, for sure. 311 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,200 I think first and foremost it's a card game. 312 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,200 It's a card game, It's an adventure game. 313 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,600 You know, it's one that is. So when I wrote version 1.0, it 314 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,240 was meant to be specifically cooperatively played between two 315 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,600 people. Version 2.0 changes a few 316 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,000 things, and one of them is that it kind of centralizes it as 317 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,640 like a solo playing game at first that very easily can have 318 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,680 another player added to it. But yeah, it's it's slow. 319 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,560 You're kind of like piercing things together as you go and 320 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,160 it's a bit rogue light and that like you're going to die a lot 321 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,000 because there's a lot of ways to lose health and there's really 322 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,800 only one way to gain health and kind of the, the, it's kind of 323 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,400 rogue light in an analogue way. At least that's the the attempt, 324 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:41,640 right? Because I want you to sort of 325 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,360 like play it again and again and realize like, Oh, I keep doing 326 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,400 this one thing where I kind of lock myself into this corner. 327 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,000 Like, can I play this differently next time where I 328 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,560 don't risk like shutting myself down? 329 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,440 So I can't get past this next part or I've used this item 330 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,680 again and again and it only gets me so far. 331 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,160 Is there a better item? Or you can come back and be 332 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,840 like, I didn't think this item was useful the first couple 333 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:05,600 times I saw it. Now I get it because I got 334 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,880 myself into a situation. So I I definitely wanted it to 335 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:14,240 be something that was modular and that it can be very quickly 336 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,360 picked up. If you've played Rummy, you'll 337 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,520 recognize like the base mechanics of this game. 338 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,840 But I also wanted it to be something that if people care 339 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,560 to, they can dig in and play it for an extended period of time. 340 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,600 So it can just be like a 1015 minute thing, like while you're 341 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,280 waiting for something to happen or if you're in between sessions 342 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,440 or people are taking bathroom breaks at the role-playing game 343 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,080 table or whatever. But I also wanted it to have 344 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,360 enough enough depth to it where if you wanted to have this be 345 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,760 the sort of the game that we're going to play tonight, it can 346 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:43,920 also be that where you can sit and play it for an hour or two. 347 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:47,200 Yeah, I think that's my pitch on it. 348 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,000 It's fun, I played it a lot and then So what? 349 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,560 So version 1 exists. It's in my hands or or next to 350 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:56,920 me. What was the what was the 351 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:58,920 impetus for version 2 like? What? 352 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:00,680 What made you want to do on a new edition? 353 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,360 For sure. I think initially I felt like it 354 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,520 was a lot of words on the page when I was looking at version 355 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:06,680 1.0. I feel like sometimes I would 356 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,000 hand it to people and I could kind of see their eyes go wide. 357 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,000 I'm like, ah, Dang, this feels like this could be a little more 358 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,040 succinct. So that was kind of the initial 359 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,359 impetus between like, I want to make this even more accessible. 360 00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:21,359 And then so as I started writing about that, I was playing it a 361 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,119 lot too. I was playing it by myself and I 362 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,200 was playing it with my wife and a couple of my other friends as 363 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,360 well too. And so I was kind of at the same 364 00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:31,640 time being like, oh, well, there's like there could be more 365 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,800 to this, right? Like in in version one point O 366 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,440 it's kind of arcady and like you just, you just kind of die and 367 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,000 that's it. You know, it feels a little bit 368 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,760 like Legend of Zelda where it's like you're not really there's 369 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:47,680 not much to death other than the fact that it's like I failed 370 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:49,800 this time. I have to start over, right. 371 00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:52,560 And so that's something I wanted to do differently with two point 372 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,880 O is to to make death a more central part of the game isn't 373 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,240 something that Ryan actually helped me with quite a bit later 374 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:00,360 on. We ended up talking about this 375 00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:05,120 game together and initially I kind of was modeling it 376 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,840 unintentionally almost after like more like Souls games or 377 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,360 like Hollow Night where I was like when you would die in 378 00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:14,960 version 2 point O, you would drop all of the seeds of all the 379 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,360 points you would collected that we get dropped there and you 380 00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:20,040 have to make it back to that floor to get those seeds back. 381 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,600 And then you get a gift. The dungeon gives you a gift 382 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,880 because the seeds have now proliferated and grown and 383 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,320 there's like narratively speaking, the dungeons giving 384 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,280 you something there and kind of through talking about it, 385 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:32,760 especially with Ryan, but with a couple other people as well too. 386 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:34,800 We're like, well, you should get the gift right away. 387 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,600 Like if you are being reincarnated as a monster when 388 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,920 you start, when after you die and you start over again, the 389 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:41,960 dungeon should be or the wild should be giving you a gift 390 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,680 right away when you start over. And the game became less like 391 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,360 punishing then and more about like the act of like death being 392 00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:51,560 this like second stage of the game. 393 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,880 And then each one of those gifts that you get has a piece of lore 394 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,360 attached to it. So like the first time you die, 395 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,680 you'll you'll receive a gift to have some lore that's going to 396 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,640 explain why the dungeon or I'm sorry the first one is what was 397 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:08,400 this land like before a dungeon was built? 398 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,440 The second one is why was the dungeon built? 399 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:13,320 So like what, what purposes the dungeon serve? 400 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,560 Is it is it a prison? Is it like some sort of factory? 401 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,920 Whatever it is. The third one is how are the 402 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:19,440 monsters doing that live here now. 403 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,440 And the 4th 1 is what will this place look like after the 404 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,320 dungeon has been destroyed? And so every time you play, 405 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,400 you're kind of like slut. You're receiving different gifts 406 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,280 depending on how far you've made it, how many gifts you've 407 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,040 received. And so you kind of craft this 408 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,040 little story. It's it's a it's a little choose 409 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:38,440 your own story and far the in so far as you can effectuate like 410 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,480 what things you're going to get by being like, well, I don't 411 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,880 want to die with 70 seeds again. I already got that gift. 412 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:44,600 I'm going to see if I can make it a little bit further this 413 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,840 time. Yeah. 414 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,880 So you get a little bit of a a rogue like adventure card game. 415 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,720 And then you get a bit of world building as well too, with these 416 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,920 sort of the narrative hooks that are attached to each gift. 417 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,880 Yeah, and and the format is completely different for version 418 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,120 2 than version one as well. How do you mean exactly? 419 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,600 I don't disagree, but. In that it looks more like this. 420 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,000 Well, yeah, so it actually has a deck of cards with it now. 421 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,080 Yeah, version one point O it did not have a deck of cards. 422 00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:17,640 Yeah. So that's like, again, like 423 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:19,480 that's the second-half of it was like illustrating it. 424 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:24,840 So like in starting to write 2.0, I felt like I was hitting a 425 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,640 lot of walls initially and I backed off of it for a while 426 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,640 honestly, and just illustrated. I was like, well, I know what 427 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,960 some of these cards look like. I've sketched them. 428 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,280 Why not just throw myself into that first? 429 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,600 I'll come back to writing the actual game content later. 430 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,360 So I there was a long period there, probably most of 2024 was 431 00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:48,520 spent like illustrating the deck, which is all hand 432 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,120 illustrated. There's no, no, yeah. 433 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:54,360 The card illustrations are fucking fantastic. 434 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:56,520 Thanks, I had a really good time. 435 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,640 I spent a lot of time drawing a pencil, which I don't ordinarily 436 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:04,600 do Usually I go straight to ink and I have a friend, a very 437 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,000 talented artist who lives here in Kalamazoo, MI. 438 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,440 Their website is Flat Mountains if you if anybody wants to to 439 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:13,880 try to find out. Their work is incredible. 440 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:19,160 They work more specifically in lino cut and wood cut stuff, but 441 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,480 they do a lot of drawing too and they're very keen on using 442 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,400 pencil and they they, they didn't try to convince me at 443 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:27,680 all, but kind of been watching them. 444 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:29,120 I was like, maybe there's something to this. 445 00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:33,720 So there are a couple different like new areas that I dip my 446 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,160 toes into with this project because I'm not really designed 447 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,920 a a game either, right. Even, you know, Terra goons is a 448 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,920 hack of tunnel goons, which is, is a game for sure. 449 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,280 It has a system to it, but it's it's pretty open-ended, you 450 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,080 know, and you can, you can read it and 5-10 minutes. 451 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,720 A big source of inspiration for this game was, was it Escape the 452 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:54,040 Dark Dungeon? Is that what it's called? 453 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:58,280 Yes. Sorry. 454 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:04,680 Yeah, that game is great. That was a really good example 455 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,680 of a card game that or a game in general that knows what it is 456 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,000 and doesn't try to be something it doesn't, doesn't have too 457 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,040 many pieces on the table. I know a lot of people like the 458 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,600 heavy games, they like Sleeping Gods and like Gloom Haven, they 459 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,200 like the heavy boxes with the stuff. 460 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:19,920 And if that's your jam, go for it. 461 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,920 It is not my jam. Like I get that stuff bounces 462 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,080 right off me. So when you have a good game 463 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,800 that's simple with like some like signature dice that come 464 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,280 with it and like a 10 page rule booklet and a deck of cards, I'm 465 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,520 sold. Like Escape the Dark Hassle. 466 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,360 It's just it's such a good game. It's such an example of a game 467 00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:39,800 that knows what it is. I still haven't played that. 468 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,120 Ryan's talked about several times, and it's still. 469 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:43,800 Fucking good. They have escaped the Dark 470 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,760 sector, which is like the the sci-fi. 471 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,480 Yeah, yeah. I'm like, oh, I would fucking 472 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:49,880 love to. And honestly, it's not really 473 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,680 even really that expensive, but. No, they got a bunch of good 474 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,320 expansions for it and one of my favorite expansions they have 475 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,400 for it, which is something that I will probably RIP off for 476 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,400 Dungeon Wild, as they have a death book where like it's keyed 477 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,680 to like depending on where you die in the game, each card has 478 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,640 like a code on it and you can go and look it up in the death book 479 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,480 and you can have a a different descriptor for each time you 480 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,200 die, like based on how you died, like how far you got. 481 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,640 It's so good. It's, it's that kind of stuff. 482 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,720 Yeah, that's what I'm after. Very cool. 483 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,720 I love that. I think Ryan has the has the art 484 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,400 cards on the screen right now. Oh. 485 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:29,080 Yeah, the illustrations. Love the king of clubs. 486 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,400 Oh, the the cosmic crab Cosmic. Crab's great. 487 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,800 So that card, that was the last card I drew, I actually almost 488 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:37,400 didn't make it into that deck, honestly. 489 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,480 Oh, nice. I had a different illustration 490 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,680 of my dog who has since passed, but like, I and it just didn't 491 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,840 fit the drawing that I did, didn't look like the rest of the 492 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,240 deck. And I, yeah, I fought with it 493 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:49,600 for so long. So I was like, damn, I love this 494 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,160 dog. I want her to be in the deck. 495 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:52,960 And I just, I took a step back from it. 496 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:54,880 I was like, it just doesn't fit. It doesn't look like the rest of 497 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,000 what I'm drawing. And I, I found an old drawing 498 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,600 that I'd done of a crab actually from the days of being down in 499 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,920 those dungeons working for the university, moving all that 500 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,920 kitchen equipment. And I was like, oh, I like this. 501 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,440 And I redrew it honestly in like 10-15 minutes. 502 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,080 And I was like, whoa. And I added that texture to it 503 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:14,960 and I was like, Dang, this card almost didn't make it into the 504 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:16,160 deck. That's crazy. 505 00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:19,160 Funny though, that's the one I called out was like, I really 506 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,240 like that card so. Yeah, I I like that card a lot 507 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,480 too, with throwing the dice in there. 508 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,080 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's incredible. 509 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,840 And I know when you so I I have, like I said, I have the the 510 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:32,440 graphics up. I hope that's OK. 511 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:34,000 Yeah. Oh yeah. 512 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,120 By all means, sure, yeah. But one thing that you told me 513 00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:43,320 when we were talking about it is the kind of themes artistically 514 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,720 that you did through through each kind of set. 515 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,360 Oh yeah, yeah. Through each court card yeah 516 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,520 yeah so like all the jacks have arches or doorways in them in 517 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,480 some capacity like the the Jack of hearts, which is like the sad 518 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:03,520 guitar goblin has the has the the rainbow and then like the 519 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,520 Jack of spades has the his little archway into his Mountain 520 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,440 Home. All the Queens have a cone of 521 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,960 light of some capacity. And then all of the kings are 522 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:18,000 like full bodied cards with a texture on the body, which is 523 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,440 like a a theme that is not so concise is the first two. 524 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,240 But yeah, this is this is the themes like throughout. 525 00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:25,800 I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff too. 526 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,000 Like, I think that's why initially I was drawn to tarot 527 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,040 cards like the the sort of like patterns, the symbology that 528 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:33,880 runs through it and like the different ways that people can 529 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,520 kind of tweak it and leave little clues to like, oh, like 530 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,920 why is the page of Cups similar to the page of Swords? 531 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,160 And you could find little things in there. 532 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,880 That kind of stuff is great. Yeah, yeah, that's great. 533 00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:51,480 And and so, so you so you send I, we, we, I have a prototype 534 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,240 version of the the deck in my hands here. 535 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,080 And the other kind of difference with this too, is that the game 536 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,400 itself is is just going to be like tucked in with the box, 537 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,360 right? Yep, Yep, Yep. 538 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:03,960 I wanted it to be pretty accessible. 539 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,400 I wanted it to be something where like the game is right 540 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,360 there for you. And honestly, like, who knows 541 00:26:10,360 --> 00:26:12,920 how many people will play that game when they get it because 542 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,000 it's also a deck of playing cards that can be used for any 543 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,520 kind of classical play. But I wanted to be something 544 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,960 where it's like, you don't have to lug anything around with it. 545 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:26,320 There's like in the future, I don't know how much we want to 546 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,040 talk about this now, so we'll probably talk a little more 547 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,360 about it later. But I would love to have like a 548 00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:33,920 double decked size 1 where it's like, effectively you get a deck 549 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,880 of cards in one compartment and then the other one, it's like a 550 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,560 golf pencil with some dice and then the book sits across the 551 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,440 top of it. So the book is slightly larger, 552 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,360 but it's still only like this size. 553 00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:45,880 I love being able to throw stuff like that in my backpack if I'm 554 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,200 going to go over to a friend's house for whatever or if we're, 555 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,880 you know, on a road trip or what's going on camping. 556 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,760 Yeah yeah, a minimalist when it comes to games for sure. 557 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,320 Like I love when stuff is shrunken down for sure. 558 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,080 I. Couldn't agree more, I was going 559 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,440 to reach back and grab my my collection of small zines I keep 560 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,440 up here but if you can tell my I started to my moving process and 561 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,640 my bookshelf's empty I. Was going to say they're so 562 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,160 small I can't see them. Yeah, I know. 563 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,720 Yeah. I could reach back and grab some 564 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,200 of them, but no, I mean Tomo goons. 565 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:17,840 I think we all have a similar brain. 566 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,480 Like Tomo goons broke my brain when I read it because I was 567 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:25,000 very 5E pilled and I went, this is like 8 pages and it's way 568 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,880 better, yeah. I will. 569 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,320 I will take 100, I'll take a one page book before I'll take 100 570 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,880 page book. Yeah, a one page game versus 100 571 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,440 page game any day of the week and two versus 200, etcetera, 572 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,800 etcetera. I, I, you know, I can appreciate 573 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,080 the kind of crunchier aspects to games, but it's just not where 574 00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:44,440 my brain's at. My my brain is too broken and 575 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,520 I'm too old and I. Don't have any of me anymore, 576 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:48,960 yeah. Yeah, I don't. 577 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:50,240 I don't have it. Yeah. 578 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,120 It really works for some people, It really benefits for some 579 00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:55,480 people. My brother is that way and like 580 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,120 he really wants the crunch. She needs it. 581 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,680 Yeah, I, I talked to a guy I work at the coffee shop and he 582 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,920 heard me mention that I was running a mothership campaign 583 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:06,360 right now. And we got in the conversation, 584 00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:09,520 he loves Pbta. And I was like, yeah, there's 585 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,160 just like so much scaffolding around, like doing stuff in that 586 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:14,560 game. And it's like, it's just not for 587 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:15,960 me. But it's cool that you like the 588 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:17,720 direction that it gives you, you know? 589 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,920 Yeah, honestly, I love Pbta too. It's it's probably the system 590 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,360 that I had the most experience with, truthfully. 591 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,800 And yeah, I don't know how much you want to get into like the 592 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,920 the spiraling world of how much systems matter and stuff like 593 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,160 that when people start hacking stuff and home brewing things. 594 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,880 But like for me in the the table that I usually play with, like a 595 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,480 game like Monster of the Week has the right amount of 596 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,560 guardrails for us, where it's like there's enough narrative 597 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:49,840 driven action and enough character centered gameplay that 598 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,080 like it clicks for us in a way where like there's definitely 599 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:54,600 some things on last of the week that I just like. 600 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,160 I mean, honestly, I probably only spend time with like 10% of 601 00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,600 that book, you know, like I don't really go into a lot of 602 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,800 the pre written adventures or stuff. 603 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,240 So they have like that or, or like you're supposed to have 604 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,640 like sunset or what's the like the countdown for the monster, 605 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,680 you know, like that's all great. But I mean, like, I'm pretty 606 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,280 quick to just be like, I like the moves. 607 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,360 I like how these how weird these characters are. 608 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:23,160 Yeah, I mean, with all things, it's just, it's the way a thing 609 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,960 clicks in your brain and that's why there's no like, wrong way 610 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:28,400 to play and there's no like, bad. 611 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:29,840 Well, I was gonna say there's no bad games. 612 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:35,600 There's no like, you know what I'm saying to say when there's 613 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,640 no like bad games like it's just people. 614 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,520 You know, if someone's like this game sucks because I, I, you 615 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,320 know, why doesn't it have a move or why is it only BR 12 or 616 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:44,600 whatever it's. Because for. 617 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,440 For a big group of people, that's what clicks in their 618 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,400 head. You know, I'm not a Pbta guy. 619 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,800 And through the course of the show, it crystallized more and 620 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,600 more why I'm not. But I'd also crystallize more 621 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,120 and more why people are. And I completely understand and 622 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,120 appreciate, you know, Pbta for what it does and why it just 623 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,240 clicks in people's brains. It just doesn't click in my 624 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,400 brain the same way, and I like a different style, but it totally 625 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,200 makes sense why it does. And it, yeah, it just comes out 626 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,960 to the kind of structure that you want and the amount of 627 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,400 structure that you want within the game, you know, And it's 628 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,440 interesting, you're saying you don't like Pbta, but again, you 629 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,840 tweak it, you make it fit, you chop off the pieces you don't 630 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,240 want and just use the parts that you do, which is great. 631 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,840 We did kind of spiral there. Where did that come? 632 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,440 From I mean, we're just talking about like what we like to play 633 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,000 in general. And like, I mean, like I, I do 634 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,160 that Full disclosure, I don't have a whole lot of experience 635 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:41,120 playing a lot of different games. 636 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,000 Like I've, I've played the dragon game, I've played monster 637 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,040 of the week quite a bit. I've played Troika, which I also 638 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,360 thought was fun, but like, honestly, the system for me and 639 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,440 Troika was just kind of there. Like what I loved about Troika 640 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,800 was all the flavour, like especially the illustration. 641 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,520 And I mean beyond that I haven't played much, you know, like 642 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,640 definitely a plenty of 1 offs. There's some really cool like 643 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,800 one page games out there. Like I mean everybody knows 644 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:06,200 Honey Heist. Another really great one is 645 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,160 Harrowing. Harrowing is a really fun one. 646 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,160 It's not very popular. Yeah. 647 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:18,200 I think stuff like for me personally, games that have good 648 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,960 scaffolding go a long way. And I know what I know. 649 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:23,880 I hear you when you say that sometimes that feels like that 650 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:25,480 kind of crushes the gameplay for you. 651 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,440 But like from and for me personally, like stuff that is 652 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,040 like really hyper specific, like people, there's plenty of good 653 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,240 creators out there that make games that are really hyper 654 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,640 specific. Like you had Maul move on 655 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,920 recently to talk about what was the Kitchen Nightmares game. 656 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,520 Yeah, like that game sounds great. 657 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,400 And I'm so glad that that Kickstarter went well for them. 658 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,160 I would probably never play a game like that. 659 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,640 It just like, well, one, because I worked in the you guys were 660 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,320 talking about it. You're like, well, we worked in 661 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,240 kitchens for so long, so it's fun to play it and like blow off 662 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,000 steam And like, for me, it would not be like, well, it's. 663 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,960 Fun because I don't work in the kitchen now. 664 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,360 Sure, yeah. But like a game like Overcooked, 665 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:01,360 like I've tried to play that game. 666 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,440 I'm going to be so anxious, right, But that that's that's 667 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,240 tangental. But like stuff like things that 668 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:07,840 are really hyper specific for people. 669 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,720 People love that sometimes where they want the game that like 670 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,480 very much is like I'm a I'm a werewolf that's also detective. 671 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,680 It is this time period in London and I have a robotic sidekick 672 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,920 and like that is the game that I've made for you today and 673 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,840 people are like, great, I want that. 674 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,400 I'm going to back this project. But I see stuff like that and 675 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,120 I'm like, Ah, man, I just, it's so it's, it's so specific to me 676 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,040 that like I kind of just, it's just not for me effectively, I 677 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,400 think. What I want is, I guess the 678 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,560 extremes in either way, where I want literally just a framework 679 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,080 that I can build a game on, and that's something like tunnel 680 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:43,800 goons, for example. For me, it's so light. 681 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,080 You can kind of do whatever you want with it. 682 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,880 Pick a Cape color and run or I want something like you just 683 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,000 said that like in the what the game wants to do is a very hyper 684 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,360 specific thing. It's that middle ground where 685 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,480 people are just like it's this generic thing, but it has a lot 686 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,440 of crunch to its genericness where I'm like, that's that's 687 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,080 where you can miss me with it. You know what I mean? 688 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,520 Like I don't want a thing where like the system makes me do all 689 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,880 of this stuff to really not do anything and I can do whatever I 690 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,800 want if I do it only in this like kind of way, which is 691 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,560 exactly where things like 5 E land, right? 692 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,440 It's it's it's a it's a it's a medium crunch game with a 693 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,760 generic fantasy setting. And for me, like give me one or 694 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,760 the other. Let me play the game that I want 695 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,280 or give me the game that you want. 696 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,160 But giving me this like middle ground wishy washy bullshit is 697 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:30,640 where like I just I don't want it. 698 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,400 Yeah. That is funny because I feel 699 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,960 very similarly and I was talking to that guy at the coffee shop 700 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:41,840 the other day about how much I enjoy like plane skate, which is 701 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,640 like a like very focused, like odd, but like has like, you 702 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,320 know, you're playing in second. There's a, there's an amount of 703 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,640 crunch to it, but I kind of like it for that thing because it's 704 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,720 so focused on the thing. Yeah, I think when it's like, 705 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,080 yeah, a bunch of crunch for a generic thing, it does very 706 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,040 little for me as well. Yeah, yeah. 707 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,320 Give me one, Give me one. Monty Cook though, you know. 708 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,400 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have the I have that giant 709 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,480 black cube still sitting in the box right here, and I'll 710 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,400 probably never touch it, but hey, I have it, right? 711 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,440 And that's why with Dungeon Wilds I've tried to do something 712 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,239 different. Obviously getting back on track 713 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:21,840 than we. Are. 714 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,199 Yeah, I'll bring it back. Yeah, I mean. 715 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,480 It's bedtime for me in like 45 minutes but. 716 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,520 Fair, fair. So my brain is my brain is 717 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,400 cooked, but dungeon wild. So yes, let's get back to it 718 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,440 because it is currently on the the second edition, the the one 719 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,000 that I have a prototype card version. 720 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,800 It's currently on Kickstarter right now. 721 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,400 It still has some days that I'll I'll. 12. 722 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,520 Days. Yes, 12 days left and that's it. 723 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:50,199 That's. Right. 724 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,440 Yep. And you've, you're more than 725 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,960 double funded when people go back this project. 726 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,720 And obviously the links are where links are what, what can 727 00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:04,960 people get with it and what you know, what are you? 728 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:06,960 Are there stretch goals? Like what? 729 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:08,600 What? What's the project I guess at 730 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,000 this point? For sure, capitalism. 731 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,080 Part of this. Yeah, yeah, let's talk about 732 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:13,640 capitalism. Let's talk about how we're all 733 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,520 surviving capitalism or trying to the the core of it. 734 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,640 I, I wanted to try to keep this Kickstarter simple while still 735 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,680 providing options to people. The core of it is the deck which 736 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,720 Ryan has held up and has the game with it. 737 00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:30,840 And that's $25. And then you can, you can like 738 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,880 get the digital PDF for five. You can get a resa graph printed 739 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,240 Zine of the rules which will be slightly larger, probably about 740 00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:41,400 twice the size of this for $10. I'm really fortunate to have 741 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,480 been played punk music for a long time, especially in 742 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,240 Kalamazoo. We toured a lot, but Kalamazoo 743 00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:47,760 had a really good punk music scene for a long time. 744 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,480 Still does, it's just changed. But like some of my friends own 745 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,080 and run like a print collective in town, not like it is a print 746 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:55,880 collective in town that does recent graph stuff. 747 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,160 And so I'm really excited to do more with that. 748 00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:02,240 I've done some work with it, but mostly it's like posters. 749 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,560 And so I'm really excited to like put some booklets out for 750 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,080 that. Oh, rumored lands, that's 751 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,080 another great. That's not that's system 752 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,000 agnostic. That's a really cool set of 753 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,880 Reese Graf scenes. I definitely took some 754 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,400 inspiration from where I'm like, this is such good scaffolding 755 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:20,160 anyways. And so you get like double decks 756 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,480 for a discount. There was an early bird special, 757 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:26,040 which is not something I've done before, and I kind of did it 758 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,160 last minute for Kickstarter and people really liked it, so I'm 759 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,760 glad people enjoyed that. There was a limited edition knit 760 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,800 bag that my mom made, which is beautiful. 761 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,640 She's so talented. She knits, She's a mad woman 762 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,840 when it comes to knitting. She's been doing it for like 20 763 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:44,800 years now. She's really good at it. 764 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,600 The adventure bag can will come with the deck of cards and the 765 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,200 guidebook, of course, that's inside that. 766 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,000 And then it'll come with this really nice golf pencil with an 767 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,880 eraser, some dice and some score sheets to track your progress 768 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,200 and you play. And then beyond that there's 769 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,040 like there's add-ons, which is also a thing I hadn't tried and 770 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:03,960 Kickstarter before. So you can get the tarot deck 771 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,080 that I did. You can get some sticker packs, 772 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,080 some recent graph posters that I did. 773 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,400 Yeah, I think that that's that covers it for the most part. 774 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,600 The stretch goals were pretty simple. 775 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,560 They were mostly like kind of quality of life improvements. 776 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:22,080 You know, they were like the the embossed design in the tuck box, 777 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,160 the card quality upgrade. And then beyond that there is 778 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,080 the deeper dungeon Zine, which is a product kind of like me 779 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,400 only having it's it's coming from me only having so much room 780 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,000 in this. So like I had, and Ryan and I 781 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,560 have talked about this, I had more content for this that just 782 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:43,400 didn't fit in here, specifically in regards to like the gifts 783 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,960 that you can get when you die and then also the maps that you 784 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,680 can explore. So that'll be what that is 785 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:50,640 that'll come with not that's funded. 786 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,920 So that'll come with everybody's deck if they back it. 787 00:37:54,240 --> 00:37:57,440 And then beyond that, the last goal was funded recently, the 788 00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,320 last stretch goal. And that is our first adventure 789 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,200 module, which is like a little scary because I don't have that 790 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,280 done. But everything else about the 791 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,200 project is done and ready to go to print. 792 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:08,680 So I can just send everything to print. 793 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,840 It'll take a while. So I'll have plenty of time to 794 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,280 to do the Zine because it'll be printed here locally so I don't 795 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,120 have to wait on that at all. And that is something that while 796 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,560 it's not finished, it's something that I've kind of had 797 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,200 in the wings for a while now. And that would be that would 798 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,560 have you exploring maps in a new way, where like the cards that 799 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,720 you're revealing on the tabletop are keyed to like blockages on a 800 00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:35,200 map that will actually allow you to get to new areas as opposed 801 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:39,640 to just kind of being these like symbolic things that you're 802 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:41,240 revealing. You know, they become actual 803 00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:43,000 things that allow you to progress in areas. 804 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,560 I have an idea for a combat system that's pretty simple too. 805 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,960 And then you would have like a narrative arc to it as well. 806 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,640 Like you would have what would what would be like akin to like 807 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,640 a choose your own adventure thing where you would have some, 808 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,040 some some choices you can make, but also some choices that are 809 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:00,720 made for you. When you when you fail at 810 00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:02,400 something, when you die a certain amount of times, you 811 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,520 know that kind of stuff. One of the things that I love 812 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:07,400 about Caves of Cud, if we can talk about that game for a 813 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,880 second, is how the game kind of like ticks when you move in the 814 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,240 game, like anytime, like it's got this kind of world clock 815 00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:16,000 that happens. And that I would love to bring 816 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,920 that into an analog game where it's like as you as you make 817 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,280 decisions in the game, there's like a kind of clock that you 818 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,920 have to check, like a table that you would have to check to be 819 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,560 like, OK, well, this I can no longer access this part of the 820 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,320 dungeons that was so many turns ago, or I already cleared that 821 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,840 floor or whatever it is. So that's what's out ahead of us 822 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:38,080 for like version 3.0 is to like add another layer of depth to 823 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:39,720 the game. And again, I want to leave it 824 00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:42,600 modular because like sometimes I just enjoy playing this game for 825 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,720 the sake of like clearing a board and like not really 826 00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:46,200 looking up like items that I can use. 827 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,040 It's more of like a puzzle thing at that point. 828 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,280 But I want to give people the option to dive in deeper and 829 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,360 like, oh, OK, I can actually explore a map. 830 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,800 I can fight this hero that showed up, or I can collect this 831 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,560 item, or I can clear this dungeon before I die the fourth 832 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,480 time, or whatever it is. That sounds pretty cool. 833 00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:09,800 Have you like read like 12 Years by Maxwell? 834 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,320 No, I've not. Oh, I feel like that would be 835 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,840 just it. Not that it's like so deeply 836 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,160 related to your current project, but I feel like there is a 837 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:25,800 little bit of like shared like modular, like randomly generated 838 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,080 DNA that you might appreciate from that game. 839 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,080 Yeah, I'll check it out there. You know, and like there's 840 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,160 there's plenty of stuff that I oh, I've played we talked about 841 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:35,560 some games I played. I've also played mouse Raider as 842 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:37,680 well too. But like the, the list of stuff 843 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:43,240 I've played is not long. And so like, and, and I try not 844 00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:45,680 to be chronically online like I am right now during this 845 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:47,840 Kickstarter campaign. So there's a handful of times 846 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,560 where like when Ryan and I talked for the first time where 847 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,560 he was like mentioning like, wow, your game really reminds me 848 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,320 of it's trying to do something kind of like this. 849 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,240 And I was like, I have never even heard of this game where 850 00:40:56,240 --> 00:41:01,000 this creator at all. But I, I think that's some of 851 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:05,680 what this kind of like the meta part of doing these projects is 852 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,800 that like, you get to like crack into other people's brains. 853 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,560 Yeah, through conversation and community. 854 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,120 You know, when it does happen, which does community happen 855 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:15,960 online? I don't know. 856 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,440 I don't know, illusion of community definitely happens 857 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,080 online. It it, it can, I think through 858 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,800 social media, it has this, this fail that it has to operate 859 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,320 through. That can really hinder it 860 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,880 sometimes, unfortunately, Yeah. As far as like back to the 861 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,120 Kickstarter, though, something that I did differently this 862 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,360 time, I don't know why Kickstarter gives you the option 863 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,920 to roll the cost of shipping into your funding goal. 864 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,240 If you've never done a Kickstarter before and you're 865 00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:42,080 listening to this now, don't do that. 866 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:44,800 There's. So many reasons for you to not 867 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,480 do that. I did that the first time I did 868 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,440 a Kickstarter and it screwed me over so bad. 869 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,760 One, because shipping prices change, right? 870 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,200 And two, because it inflates the goal that you need to hit, and 871 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,880 the longer it takes you to hit your goal, the less likely it is 872 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,240 that you're going to hit that goal. 873 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,360 So yeah, pay, pay for backer kit or whatever you need to to 874 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,680 collect that information after the fact that that was a huge 875 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,480 lesson I learned from that first campaign. 876 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,280 This one went much much more smoothly the first time. 877 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,600 I think I find it in the last like 3 or 4 days. 878 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,480 I was like biting my nails the whole time. 879 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,800 I mean, it seems like you've done everything Well, I mean 880 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,080 like the the process of like doing a small Kickstarter, you 881 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,520 know, like working on your own project, doing like a hack of a 882 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,680 project that you like and then like expanding on your own 883 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,560 thing. It it feels like a very like 884 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:38,960 wise and natural. Progression. 885 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:43,680 I think now people kind of skip over to their first like $30,000 886 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,920 project, you know? Yeah, I think that's also a 887 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,880 product of people being like, I don't want to work my day job 888 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,560 anymore. I have found a little corner of 889 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,840 the Internet where my stuff has gained some traction and I want 890 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,480 to throw my full weight into this, which is like, I can't 891 00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:59,080 blame them. That will never. 892 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,520 That will never be me though. Like, this will always be a side 893 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,040 gig for me. Well, not always. 894 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,120 I can't predict the future. This will likely always be a 895 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,600 side gig for me, which means stuff will come out slowly. 896 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,080 But it also means that, like, my health insurance is not 897 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,080 contingent on if I am able to clear my next $30,000 898 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,680 Kickstarter goal, which is just like, it would make me so 899 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:19,760 anxious. I couldn't do that. 900 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:21,440 Yeah. That's very that's valid. 901 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,080 Crazy. There's Chris McDowell, end of 902 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,280 the odd mythic Bachelorland, electric bachelor and all this 903 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,440 stuff just dropped a blog I think last night or something 904 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,480 that talked about basically that like the track of their, how 905 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,080 they went from doing something that and it's like 15 years of 906 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,600 being like I just dicked around for like 7 years before I even 907 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:40,560 sold anything. And then I sold like one thing a 908 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,360 year for like 5 years. And it's like if, if, if Chris 909 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,120 McDowell, who everyone knows and into the odd and the doomed and 910 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,840 all this stuff is saying, hey, it's really hard and it sucks. 911 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:50,560 And I've been doing this for like 15 years. 912 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,120 Maybe keep doing it the way you're doing it. 913 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,440 You know where, again your health insurance is in 914 00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:57,120 contention on Kickstarters. Right. 915 00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,680 And, and I, and I, I talk about all this stuff to be transparent 916 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:01,680 about it, because I feel like him being transparent about that 917 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:03,600 is critical. Like I, I found a couple of 918 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:05,640 blogs like that when I first started doing all this and I, 919 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,480 I've met a couple of people that were pretty upfront with me 920 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,960 about things too. Like I had the opportunity to 921 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,120 talk with Stu Horvath who does vintage RPG. 922 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:18,120 He was like very upfront with me about a lot of stuff. 923 00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,400 Very honest person hadn't had me on, had me on their show once. 924 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,520 And then I met a couple other people actually met someone who 925 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,640 ended up working or who was working at Kickstarter. 926 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,080 She walked me through a lot of things too, just kind of like 927 00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:31,200 avoiding some pitfalls here and there. 928 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:32,920 And like that stuff is so critical. 929 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:37,480 Like when you have when you're when you're stepping foot into a 930 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,520 new scene, whatever it is, music or role-playing games or 931 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,760 whatever you're doing, like to have people that are like 932 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,480 willing to like for for no cost to you and for no like clout or 933 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:48,240 fame of their own. Like just kind of be like, Hey, 934 00:44:48,240 --> 00:44:51,000 this is what worked and what didn't work for me. 935 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,960 And this is like the the 7 to 15 years of me fucking it up. 936 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:58,760 Like that stuff goes a long way. I feel like Jarrett Crater was a 937 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,400 person that wrote a really good blogspot about Kickstarter's 938 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,240 early on that I read through and it like helped me really 939 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:07,680 conceptualize what it was going to be like before I did it. 940 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,680 Because before you do it, it's like, it feels like a labyrinth. 941 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,800 It feels like this feels very like, I don't know, it felt 942 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,440 daunting to me anyways, you know, So when people go out of 943 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,560 their way to share those kinds of things, I think it goes a 944 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,200 long ways. Yeah, we have, yeah. 945 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,760 It's what we have Jert on every month to talk about basically 946 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,600 almost basically since they started the company like talking 947 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,040 about the growth and the progress of Space Pane and Ink, 948 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,560 which has been hopefully beneficial to to people that 949 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:33,920 listen to that. But you know, it's great to 950 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:35,600 obviously hear that like. I think they. 951 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,320 Started doing bigger international distribution and, 952 00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,160 and moving up in like the levels of publishing that I didn't know 953 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,760 existed and things like that. It's it's really cool to hear. 954 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:49,000 So yeah, I mean that's that's how, but that's how so you can 955 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:54,600 progress a space in a kind of like non capitalist way, right? 956 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,520 Like you helped the people that came after you so that they can 957 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,680 be in a better spot. That's kind of how society is 958 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:06,360 supposed to work and, you know, yeah. 959 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:14,000 Now, But Thomas, staunch capitalist, I'm looking to step 960 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,560 on everyone around me to make sure I get my dollar, you know? 961 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,080 When I was trying to print the first tarot deck, I didn't know 962 00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:23,960 who to print with. And there were a handful of 963 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,880 people that I reached out to and they were like kind of coy about 964 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,360 it. Like they didn't want to share 965 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,120 who their their printer, their publisher was. 966 00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,120 Which is like, fine, I'm not going to come at you sideways 967 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,320 about it, but it's like, I mean, for what? 968 00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,960 Like what good does that do you? So there were a handful of 969 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,760 people that also kind of like, let me see behind the scenes in 970 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:44,080 regards to that too. Like that go. 971 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:45,560 That went a long way as well, too. 972 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:47,400 It's like, I don't know how to print 500 Tera decks. 973 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,120 I don't know where to start looking for this kind of stuff. 974 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:50,600 I just Google it. I'm going to end up getting 975 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:51,720 scammed, you know? Yeah. 976 00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,080 You'll get the most expensive option you possibly could get on 977 00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:56,280 Google, yeah. Right. 978 00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,040 Yeah. And so like, yeah, no, it's, 979 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,120 it's a, it's, it's a huge part of like actually building a 980 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:04,640 community, you know, and it's like, and you can write blogs 981 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,040 about it, right? That does help sometimes. 982 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,120 But sometimes you just kind of have to have conversations like 983 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,120 this or, you know, e-mail back and forth or whatever it is. 984 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,640 Yeah, and that also lets you meet cool fucking people, you 985 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,440 know, like, you know, we we've, you know, we talked about the 986 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,760 fact that we talked and it literally was just like you 987 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,880 posting on Blue Sky. Hey, anyone, can someone like 988 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:24,720 just check out my game? And I'm like, I have the first 989 00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:25,840 one. I'll fucking check it out. 990 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,000 And now, like, you know, we had a long conversation about the 991 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,240 game, like you're here talking with us on the show friend of 992 00:47:32,240 --> 00:47:33,680 the show now. And, and that's great. 993 00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:35,680 You know, that's how you develop a community, that's how you 994 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,000 develop friends. That's how you can get into 995 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,880 those spaces. So it's, it's really, it's great 996 00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:46,400 to to help others and in turn, you will eventually get help as 997 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,600 well. I mean, it's not like a, you 998 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,640 know, transactional, it's just if you are going to help people 999 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:53,840 exactly like, you know, that's the energy you're putting out 1000 00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:55,720 there and whatever. Yeah, yeah. 1001 00:47:55,720 --> 00:47:58,400 When you first messaged me about it, you were like, are you going 1002 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:00,680 to keep 1.0 around? And I was like, no, I don't 1003 00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:01,680 know. I guess I could why? 1004 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:03,800 And you were like, I kind of hate 2.0. 1005 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,600 I was like, oh, OK. You were like you, you were 1006 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:07,800 like, you didn't say that exactly. 1007 00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:09,600 I really have, I have a ton of notes on it. 1008 00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:11,280 And I was like, give it to me. And you're like, Are you sure? 1009 00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,000 And I was like, yeah, trust me, you're not going to hurt my 1010 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:14,840 feelings. And then you like laid it out. 1011 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,520 And honestly, I can't even tell you how excited I was when I got 1012 00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,000 that first, like PDF from you, those 2 pages, like, yeah. 1013 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,680 So I was like, I need, I need someone to like really dig into 1014 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:26,640 this and cut it up. I literally said like 3 times I 1015 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,400 was like Are you sure you want me to like tell you what exactly 1016 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:30,400 what I. Think I was. 1017 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:32,120 Like never gave it to me. I promised and I'm like all 1018 00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,080 right, listen, I took notes and yeah, it's literally like this 1019 00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,040 like 2 page like giant thing. And then it got to the point 1020 00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:39,880 where it's like, hey, do you want to just hop on a discord? 1021 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:41,960 Yeah. And then it was a call that 1022 00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:43,720 lasted like what, like 3-4 hours or whatever, but. 1023 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:45,280 It was great. It was honestly great, yeah. 1024 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,400 It was awesome. It was so much fun too, to to be 1025 00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,160 able to sit down and really just be like basically kind of what 1026 00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:51,840 we do on the show. Like you just pick piece by 1027 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:53,480 piece and be like, why, why, why, why, why? 1028 00:48:54,240 --> 00:48:56,920 But you know, it was awesome and and you're awesome and it's been 1029 00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:01,640 great having you here. Hopefully you'll come back for 1030 00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,920 three-point O for those that are looking for your tarot deck for 1031 00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:08,440 one point O for right now, for for for tarot goons, all the 1032 00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,240 rest of it. Where can people find you and 1033 00:49:11,240 --> 00:49:12,920 all of your stuff? For sure. 1034 00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:14,960 Yeah. I did myself a favor early on 1035 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,880 and got just like a straight website off Squarespace. 1036 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,920 So if you want to just look for Goblins and Gardens, you just do 1037 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,080 goblinsandgardens.com and that's a pretty good central hub. 1038 00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,520 There are some third party people who are like carrying my 1039 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:29,680 products. But for the most part, if you 1040 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:31,720 just want, I have, I have my own store there. 1041 00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:36,160 You can check that out. I'm on Blue Sky somewhat 1042 00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:38,520 regularly and Instagram somewhat regularly. 1043 00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:40,680 Both of those are just at Goblins and Gardens. 1044 00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:45,040 Each dot IO is the same, except there's dashes in between 1045 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,440 Goblins and Gardens. And then the Kickstarter is just 1046 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:50,400 Dungeon Wilds. You can search for Dungeon Wilds 1047 00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:52,240 on Kickstarter and it should come up. 1048 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:56,080 I think that the, the, the SEO, the SEO's have been kind enough 1049 00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,200 to me. Yeah. 1050 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,280 So that's most of it. I think that, like, fair 1051 00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,680 warning, probably for the month after the Kickstarter is done, I 1052 00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:07,600 will not be on social media because I'm so sick of it right 1053 00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:09,000 now. Good. 1054 00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:10,280 Good for you. Yeah. 1055 00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:13,120 And then I do have a newsletter which some people have signed up 1056 00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,400 for. It is not going to be something 1057 00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:16,640 that you're getting like every month. 1058 00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:18,520 It's going to be something that's like quarterly where it's 1059 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:23,160 like, hey, this is the next leg of this project or this is, you 1060 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:25,560 know, I have, I guess I should say have a Patreon as well too, 1061 00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:27,680 but that's just like a, a free one. 1062 00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:29,960 Or you can give a dollar. Like I don't have tears on 1063 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:31,040 there. I'm not giving a bunch of 1064 00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:32,520 content. I don't have the capacity, I 1065 00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,320 don't have the bandwidth to do a full on Patreon like some people 1066 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:36,920 do. So it's like if you want to 1067 00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,960 contribute a dollar to help me out, I think what that looks 1068 00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:43,280 like moving forward is that as Dungeon Wilds gets off the 1069 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,360 ground, I will have probably like adventure module packets 1070 00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,520 that will be for it that you can get for a discounted rate. 1071 00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,920 I think I will just give codes like as those things pop up in 1072 00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,040 the shop and then people who can get them for cheaper. 1073 00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:57,960 Yeah. So that's that's where you can 1074 00:50:57,960 --> 00:50:59,240 find me. It's goblins and gardens 1075 00:50:59,240 --> 00:51:02,200 everywhere pretty much. I think on Twitter it was 1076 00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,400 different, but Twitter's dead to me so. 1077 00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:08,880 As it should be to everyone, but alas, it's still destroying 1078 00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,920 everything. Yeah, seriously, it's been a 1079 00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,280 pleasure having you on. Would love to have you on again. 1080 00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:17,560 Maybe come on and play play some of the the other games. 1081 00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:20,560 I would love to yeah. I can be the the guy that comes 1082 00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,720 down from the mountain that has like no context for most of most 1083 00:51:23,720 --> 00:51:25,000 of role-playing games you'd like here. 1084 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:26,960 Just throw some dice at me and and I'll play. 1085 00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:28,240 That's great. Yeah, yeah. 1086 00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:29,560 We'll take that all over. It's a. 1087 00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:31,560 Good perspective to have. Yeah, yeah. 1088 00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:33,240 I wish. I sometimes I wish I had more of 1089 00:51:33,240 --> 00:51:33,920 that perspective. Yeah. 1090 00:51:34,720 --> 00:51:37,240 But yeah, again, thank you so much for being here. 1091 00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:42,360 We really appreciate it and we will see everyone out there. 1092 00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:44,960 Later. Bye everybody. 1093 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:45,040 Bye.