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Hello and welcome to the Weekly 
Scroll Podcast. 

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My name is Ryan and joining me 
today is the wonderful Will 

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Yost. 
How are you doing today, Will? 

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Hey, I'm so glad to be here and 
I have like a big reveal that I 

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have been saving, but I just 
want to show you that we're 

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wearing the same clothes right 
now. 

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Oh shit, we are wearing the same
shirt, wearing the same dark 

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wizard. 
Is that why you turned your 

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camera off every time you stood 
up? 

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So that I couldn't see that you 
were the same shirt? 

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That's funny because you turned 
it off. 

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I'm around the bathroom with 
camera off. 

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I was like, OK, that works. 
OK, that's funny. 

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Yeah, I didn't even notice 
across the top. 

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Yeah, I thought a couple times 
and then, you know, we both got 

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the smartwatch on. 
We're matching today. 

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We're getting. 
There I just got to throw on a 

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hat and we're and we're chilling
yeah for the last hour plus that

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I've been fucking with audio 
issues the most I've ever had 

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before stream ever. 
I somehow in my rage did not 

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notice that we were wearing the 
exact same shirt. 

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But yeah, shout. 
Out world champ gameco Adam Vass

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shout out Dark wizard. 
While on the call I bought the 

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new Dark Wizard poster which you
can find at the is it a red 

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bubble? 
Is it a what? 

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What's the store called? 
Let me find it really quick, but

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I he did a new like one piece 
tattoo poster just of all the 

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one piece characters and I got 
it. 

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Today, So yeah, you're a, you're
a one piece. 

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You're one of those. 
I'm one of the yeah, I'm one of 

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those. 
I mean converted by the by the 

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best, you know, Tyler Chrome 
Ryan of of Tabletop World. 

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But dark wizard also did like a 
Warhammer collection too in like

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American traditional tattoo 
style. 

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I'll send. 
You a picture? 

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OK, now you now now you got me 
one piece. 

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I'm like man, but like when you 
said Warhammer, I'm I'm I'm on 

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it. 
But OK, so will Yobst. 

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For those who may not know who 
the heck you are, who the heck 

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is Will Yobst? 
I'm a tabletop designer, 

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publisher, writer. 
I'm 1/2 of Good Luck Press with 

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Sub Pines. 
You might be familiar with my 

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recent games like this. 
Discord has Ghosts in it, A 

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Black Mass, and the forthcoming 
plasmodics Mutant Freaks in the 

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Weird Future. 
I've edited lots and lots of 

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games. 
Most recently I provided. 

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Yeah, there's a huge stack. 
Fuck yeah. 

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Most recently, I provided a 
couple comments in the Neopets 

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alpha that's on Google Docs 
right now. 

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So look, just to date this 
recording right now, it's that 

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was like yesterday. 
It makes me happy now. 

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And it's, it's, it's so, I love 
that everyone is just doggone. 

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It's so bad. 
They're like, how are we using 

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5E, which at its core is just a 
combat simulator for Neo pets of

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all things? 
We indeed tabletop social media 

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kind of needed this as a family,
like we needed this moment. 

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So this this is good. 
Just everyone finally like on 

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the same page about one thing 
briefly. 

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We can kind of blast off on this
one. 

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This is OK, but yeah, I I think 
I like my design sensibilities 

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kind of embody kind of the 
weekly scroll vibe of like being

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as widely played as possible and
not like looking for 

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inspirations not just in only in
DTTRP GS, but like far filled 

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with solo games, board games, 
war games, skirmish games, 

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etcetera. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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And so we've obviously we've 
said this forever on the show. 

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We are on Adivast and podcast, 
but you can't really be an 

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Adivast fan without knowing Also
loving Will Yost with with the 

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brain trust with, I mean, half 
the stuff up there that is Adam 

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is also you. 
And it's shocking that we are 

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304 episodes in and and this is 
the first time you're coming on 

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the show. 
I know. 

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I'm so glad we got to hang out 
at PAX UA bunch and that was 

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really great. 
And yeah, we just clicked so 

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hard. 
It was like, I don't this 

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doesn't make sense on what the 
hell, but yeah, huge. 

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I'm a huge Adam Vast fan. 
Day one, you know, I got Oh my 

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God, I'm going to forget the 
name of the game. 

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The first Adam Vast thing I got 
was deals with demons. 

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Do you know this? 
It was like a little. 

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There's a collection of red 
envelopes that you can use for 

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your TTRPG. 
That was actually before me. 

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He's talked to me about those 
and it's like one of the only 

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things because I have more world
champ than he does and it's one 

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of the things I don't have from 
him actually. 

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The archive, well, I'll, I'll 
have to find mine and send it to

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you. 
So you have like the complete 

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archive. 
But yeah, you can. 

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Whenever a player dies or 
experiences like some kind of 

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horrific event, you give the 
player one of these little deals

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that's in the red envelope and 
they open it and they decide 

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what to do. 
And I saw that and I was like, 

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I'm going to make Adam my 
friend. 

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That's how it's going to go. 
And so we met at a Zine meet up 

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at Gen. 
Con in like 2017 or something 

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like that, kind of before the 
kind of Zine seems just heavy, 

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but kind of Zine. 
Happy Zine quest, by the way, 

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everybody. 
But yeah, you know, brought 

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backpacks of zine's and traded 
Adam Shelcon and I, and that's 

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where it started. 
That's that's awesome. 

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We yeah, we talked yesterday. 
We have an episode that'll come 

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out on Monday where we briefly 
go over, yeah, Xenuari is what 

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we decided to call it because it
should be fucking Zen Topia, Zen

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Quest, Zen Month, Zemo, all the 
shit we're like, it's. 

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Xenuari. 
That is it for us. 

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From now on is Xenuari. 
Also shout out Adam, I'm 

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drinking a Gator bowl right now 
It looks like looks like 

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wastewater. 
It's awesome. 

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The PAX Gator Bowl crowd was was
ridiculous. 

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No, my first thing from Adam. 
It's funny that we're having you

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on the show then immediately 
talk about Adam. 

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I can't Fuck. 
I'm trying to remember what it's

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called. 
It was, it was, it was a 

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collection of small games. 
There was like 2 Zenes on 

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Kickstarter that I was just like
this couple. 

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Looks cool. 
And the other one, Wish you were

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here. 
And the other one. 

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Yeah. 
What's the other one? 

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I Yeah. 
And that's where we like first 

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worked together. 
I I worked on one of our shared 

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loves as the show Lost. 
And so Adam has a game called 

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2815 that's about the, you know,
flight hitting the island. 

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And there's another one called 
time capsule with a demon 

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inside, which is really special,
like postcard game Adam Med. 

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And then we work together to 
kind of flesh it out to be a bit

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longer. 
But yeah. 

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Adam Bass. 
What an artist. 

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What a what a what a guy what a 
what a what a what a pal. 

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Going to see him very soon so 
he's, you know, leaving to go on

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tour for a month in Europe 
because the bastard can't just 

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be good at tabletop games. 
She also has to be a bass player

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for one of my favorite bands. 
My. 

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Friend who's a rock star, Yeah. 
Yeah, just happens to also, you 

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know, make some of the best 
games in the TWG space. 

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We're going to see each other at
Adepticon. 

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You should go into Adepticon. 
Where is. 

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It. 
It's fucking the Milwaukee, OK, 

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I want to say Milwaukee. 
I it's on my list because I know

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Adam's going, I know you're 
going, I know witty goes to and 

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it's like it just would be cool 
to go hang all the war games and

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and skirmish. 
DIY heads are so nice. 

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It's out of control, but I'm 
like taking a step back from 

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cons this year because I did 
like four or five last year that

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included a lot of travel and it 
actually affected me mentally. 

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And basically, did you know 
that? 

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Did you know that this could 
happen You. 

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Seemed great at but you know, 
obviously like the time. 

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It's different too though, like 
I mean I worked PAX I guess but 

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really I just stood around 
talking about some of my 

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favorite games for like 3 days 
so like it didn't feel. 

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You're really good at it so that
you're really good at selling 

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games in general and it can. 
PAX is great 'cause it's like 3 

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days and you're out. 
But the month before I did Game 

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Hole which was. 
Yeah, we, we, yeah, you 

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discussed game all it sounded 
great. 

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You got to go next year, you 
know, so. 

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Great. 
Yeah, but it's funny because I'm

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doing the exact opposite. 
I only did a Depticon of packs 

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last year. 
So this year I'm going to like 

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four or five different things. 
Like I'm hitting a Depticon, I'm

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going to go to under the dice, 
I'm going to go to packs, I'm 

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going to go to the between the 
Cairns con, between the cons. 

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That's one I like really want to
go to and it's just a little bit

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too far in Portland. 
Yeah, I was like pricing out 

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flight. 
Sounds like I really want to go 

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to this. 
This would be really cool. 

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Well, it's funny because it's 
that one's actually the only one

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that's close to me because I 
live in Northern California, so 

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and Hunter lives in Oregon. 
Oh, so it's like the closest one

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I would get. 
So every time I go to PAX, is 

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that exactly I I have to go from
Northern California to 

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Philadelphia at the end of every
year. 

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And yeah, it's planes get 
expensive once you cross like 

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the middle of the country, you 
know? 

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It's yeah, it's stupid. 
But it's, you know it, it is. 

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And then, and you know, I I've 
flown to Southwest forever and 

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now they're getting rid of their
entire business model for no 

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reason whatsoever. 
That's an economic indicator. 

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I think that is a empire and 
collapse moment that's last 

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after like 45 years. 
Well, apparently someone bought 

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in a big chunk of the company 
enough to be able to make 

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decisions. 
And that's what happened. 

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I guess it's they're like, all 
right, we're we're we snatched 

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up a bunch of the stock. 
We're going to start making 

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decisions. 
And the decision was let's 

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striate and pay more, you know, 
for for the things that that you

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fucking want. 
Whatever anyway, I don't wolf 

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anyway, Will yelps. 
So we talked about some of your 

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stuff, games that we've how many
games have yours have we 

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reviewed on the show? 
Is it just what we only done? 

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Torque? 
I think torque, it wouldn't 

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surprise me if you talked about 
some things I've done with AD 

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00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:15,160
like if campfire perhaps. 
But yeah, I think. 

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Torque the widest PDF in 
existence. 

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It's double, double wide because
I use, you know, I use those 

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like Arctic glasses that are 
only a thin. 

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That a thin lines you can, you 
know, cut out all the 

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hallucinations from the the snow
so you can see the the torque 

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PDF and. 
You by formatting it like. 

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Because it's a, it's a, it's 
already a sideways A5, basically

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the same shape as cyber metal. 
And then the only PDF available 

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is in spreads, which is just 
means that the entire PDF is 

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this one. 
It's long style, Yeah. 

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It's like zooscope. 
That's what those called. 

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That when you like are have two 
binoculars on something and 

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you're like sliding a piece of 
paper around zootrope, that's 

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what it's a zootrope. 
There we go. 

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00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:04,360
Yeah. 
I'm just making Zoetropes over 

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00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,320
here, but yeah, that's a game 
that's like half minimalist like

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tactics road rage game and then 
half like free form role-playing

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set in like a post apocalyptic 
weird future kind of thing where

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you play drivers who apply their
trade in communities and trying 

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to survive on the way there. 
Have you Have you ever peaked 

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gas lands for Mike Hutchinson? 
Yeah, Gasolines is sick. 

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I haven't played it, but I did 
like a big survey of all of the 

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kind of car tactics games, and 
that one was just so pretty and 

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I loved the models that I saw 
people make for it. 

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It's cool because I saw torque 
well before I got into skirmish,

219
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so as soon as I saw gasoline and
I was like, oh, that's just 

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torque with more steps. 
That's what's happening right 

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00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,400
there. 
I love the like because they 

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have the a couple placement 
things including like a throttle

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meter deal which is very sick. 
That would be and that was an 

224
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,040
originally Zine quest project. 
This is one of my specialties 

225
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,960
which has kick starting a Zine 
and then making it over 100 

226
00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,760
pages. 
Impossible to be a Zine and it 

227
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:19,720
takes 2 times as long to 
fulfill. 

228
00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,880
At least it's just going to. 
I'm not allowed anymore. 

229
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,480
I'm not allowed to do it. 
You and Adam love those like 

230
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:32,520
cloth mats, the the play mats 
you because I have the torque on

231
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:33,560
it. 
I'll just fucking grab it. 

232
00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:38,560
These things you guys love 
these. 

233
00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:40,280
So this is the one I have of 
yours. 

234
00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,520
This is the Torque mat, which is
great, but Adam has about 18 of 

235
00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:48,680
these in his games, all made-up 
from like got like literally 

236
00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:50,520
half those back there have one 
of these in them. 

237
00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,240
Yeah, there's Cobwebs has one. 
We did one for Campfire, which 

238
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,640
is like an anthology horror 
storytelling game. 

239
00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:01,920
We did one for a guide to 
casting phantoms in the 

240
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,880
Revolution. 
That's like a big ass pentagram 

241
00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:06,760
and you play inside the 
pentagram. 

242
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,160
Was there one for snow? 
Oh. 

243
00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:12,560
I feel like there is one for 
snow. 

244
00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:15,600
I feel like you play on the mat.
It's a mat or a fold up paper or

245
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:16,960
something because you do play on
it. 

246
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,600
Yeah, I like having a play space
that's specific. 

247
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,040
It helps kind of hypnotize 
people at the table. 

248
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,400
Yeah, I mean, I think it helps 
really bring focus in. 

249
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,760
Like, I've never been a person 
who does theater of the mind. 

250
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,560
Like, it's fine, but even when 
people play, there's something 

251
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,160
where we've been on stream and 
we've done a little bit more 

252
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,440
theater of the mind stuff. 
I'll pull out a posted note and 

253
00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:42,200
draw maps on it in my head 
because my, I have the worst 

254
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,640
sense of direction ever. 
But it's like, so wait, so 

255
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,320
there's a door in the front and 
there's a door in the back. 

256
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,720
And then we went this way and 
then and I have to, you know, at

257
00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:50,640
least do a little doodle or 
something to figure it out. 

258
00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,640
So when I always GM anything, I 
always have physical stuff. 

259
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,760
Yeah, I was just running a 
dungeon last night from Valley 

260
00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:01,400
of Flowers in my Mythic Bastion 
land campaign, and it's a group 

261
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,400
that we normally play story 
games with. 

262
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:08,280
We've started to play more hex 
crawls and adventure games, and 

263
00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:12,240
in this one I found that they 
weren't exploring enough. 

264
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,680
And so one of the solutions was 
like, I'm going to screenshot 

265
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:16,120
the maps and show you all the 
doors. 

266
00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,480
You're not going in instead of 
like describing that you're not 

267
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,400
going like something's happening
where I know if you were in a 

268
00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,480
video game, you would be 
exhaustively searching this 

269
00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:27,880
area. 
Did it? 

270
00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,600
Did it make a difference? 
Yeah, yeah, huge difference. 

271
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,280
They they checked it out. 
They were like, oh, there's a 

272
00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:37,280
door here. 
And it helps as like a game 

273
00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:42,480
runner to have players help 
remind you of the different 

274
00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:46,680
exits that there are instead of 
trying to, like, scan the 

275
00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:51,920
description of the room. 
Describe, you know, are you 

276
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:53,960
going to describe doors? 
Are you not going to describe 

277
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:55,920
doors? 
That's a big moment in every GM 

278
00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:00,400
slide. 
It's like I said, I I like 

279
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,480
having playmats, I like having 
battle maps. 

280
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,960
Like back when I was actually 
running 5 EA long time ago, I 

281
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:09,480
even had the whole like TV laid 
flat into a frame kind of thing 

282
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:13,040
so I could have like video stuff
and I bought the things where 

283
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:17,000
you could have like levels. 
So we did 1 battle in like a 

284
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,120
treehouse. 
So I pulled out all these like 

285
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,040
stands that were all different 
things. 

286
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,000
And then people were like, are 
we going to use like, what is a 

287
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:26,240
square? 
Probably square times C square? 

288
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,800
Are we going to use Pythagorean 
theorem for like the distances 

289
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,040
and stuff? 
And I'm like, no, fuck that. 

290
00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:33,160
Like 8 inches, like 8 inches is 
8 inches. 

291
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,960
Like I'm not worried about the, 
the diagonals of things. 

292
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:37,920
But yeah, like, like I said, I, 
I prefer that. 

293
00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,280
And you know, skirmish really 
helps with that because then you

294
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,200
don't really do you know, 
skirmish theatre, the mind 

295
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:44,600
stuff. 
So having the play space, I 

296
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,640
think you and Adam like set me 
up to, to lead into skirmish 

297
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,000
eventually with like the play 
mats and like all the physical 

298
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,920
DIY stuff and everything. 
But before we dig into that, 

299
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,600
because I'm sure we'll go around
to that, let's, let's take it 

300
00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:58,160
all the way back. 
So when were you born? 

301
00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,760
No. 
So what got you into teach RPGs 

302
00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:03,600
kind of in the beginning? 
Like how did we, how did we get 

303
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:09,440
here? 
Yeah, I started experimenting in

304
00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,800
college. 
As as as we all do. 

305
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:17,240
OK. 
And I had like known in the back

306
00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,640
of my mind about TTRPG Dungeons 
and Dragons. 

307
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,000
And I said I actually played 
like Hero Quest as a child. 

308
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:28,840
And I have this very strong 
memory of like getting ganked in

309
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,920
a doorway by like a minotaur, 
which I think is a, you know, 

310
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:38,880
classic Hero Quest moment. 
But I puzzled out the rules to 

311
00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:44,880
at that time 4th edition. 
I just turned 33 so do the math.

312
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,160
The 4th edition was out just. 
Just a baby look at you. 

313
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,680
Yeah, thank you. 
I'm I'm, you know, I've been 

314
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,080
telling everybody I'm like 
Christ Sage when it all popped 

315
00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:55,600
off. 
So that's good. 

316
00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:57,520
What I'm looking for my year of 
miracle. 

317
00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,960
When it all popped off. 
That's an interesting way 

318
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:08,040
serious for a little guy. 
JC But I got interested in 

319
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:13,000
tabletop from reading like 
Reddit posts of play reports and

320
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,240
there was like an earwolf 
podcast with like Brian Posain 

321
00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,520
and a lot of other alt comedians
where they play it. 

322
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:25,120
And so I got really interested 
in like the GM ING optimization 

323
00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:29,400
part of tabletop RPG is going so
far as to like releasing blogs 

324
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,000
and doing articles for like 
gnomes to all about, you know, 

325
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:37,280
here's how you like can bring 
improv techniques into tabletop.

326
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,600
So I play with the same group 
that I started with in college. 

327
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,200
Like to this day, that's the 
group that wouldn't go in the 

328
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:47,800
other rooms in this in this 
castle. 

329
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:54,880
But I basically, you know, 
you're the same way where you're

330
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:59,840
interested in DIY outsider art. 
Interesting, cool, sicko shit. 

331
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,960
I was this way with music, with 
movies, and so it was easy to 

332
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:09,520
graduate from, not that you need
to graduate, not making a moral 

333
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:14,040
judgment, maybe I am. 
But from moving from the Hasbro 

334
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:19,160
D&D experience to more bespoke, 
strange, interesting, compelling

335
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:24,080
RPGs, Yeah, that's that was a 
start. 

336
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,480
Yeah, interesting. 
Strange. 

337
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,160
I mean, you know, you guys, you 
know, we talked about Adam. 

338
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,760
Well OK, so then Adam Vast 
existed and how did you guys get

339
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,800
to start making a podcast and 
making the sicko weirdo shit? 

340
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,280
This is gonna, there's gonna be 
a lot of wincing in this story. 

341
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:47,480
So I just have to we want to we 
did a Kickstarter together for 

342
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:52,720
the break Kickstarter project 
that was like a themed monthly 

343
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,400
event for Kickstarter. 
You might know this thing called

344
00:19:55,400 --> 00:20:00,080
Scene Quest where people make 
these small magazines or things 

345
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,880
like Pocket Topia where you make
something can fit in a pocket. 

346
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,080
This was like a A1 off that they
never did again, where you break

347
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,120
the rules of Kickstarter somehow
to make an interesting campaign.

348
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,520
And so our Break Kickstarter 
campaign. 

349
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,400
That we then later referred to, 
how can you break Kickstarter if

350
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,000
you're not willing to break 
yourself? 

351
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,800
We would. 
We ran the campaign for a game 

352
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:25,560
we did not know we were going to
make. 

353
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,720
And each week with different 
backer input, we would 

354
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,920
calibrate, you know, what that 
game is, what the pitch is, what

355
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,400
the table experiences, what's 
included. 

356
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:41,280
And each week during the 
campaign, it's I'm remembering 

357
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:45,960
this like I'm Brooke Hauling 
like some dramatic memory right 

358
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,600
now. 
Like it's getting very, very 

359
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,720
vivid very quickly. 
But we did a weekly podcast 

360
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,320
while the campaign was running. 
It was a 39 day campaign. 

361
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:56,680
Did you know you could do it 
that long? 

362
00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,320
Maybe not. 
I've seen a 60 someone, some 

363
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,960
crazy person did like it was 
somewhere between 40 and sixty. 

364
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,160
Maybe it was all the way 60, but
I know it was like 40 and I was 

365
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,360
like, why you funded on day 4? 
You have a long way to go buddy.

366
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,280
But 39 is crazy. 
It's 39. 

367
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:16,440
We had no idea what we were 
selling, so we would do a 

368
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,680
different episode each week with
a different guest. 

369
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:24,120
So we had like Alex Roberts, we 
had Nathan D Paletta on, we had 

370
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:29,480
Takuma Okada, we had Nell 
Robond, and they would also help

371
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:34,360
us kind of calibrate our pitch. 
And so through that process, we 

372
00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:37,480
came with Up with the Game a 
guide to casting Phantoms in the

373
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,200
Revolution, which is right over 
there. 

374
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:49,240
And that is AGM less troop style
game about revolutionaries in 

375
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:56,800
1790s France summoning demons 
from their phantasmagoria magic 

376
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,000
lamps to destroy the 
aristocracy. 

377
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:07,800
And it's, it's good. 
I, we reviewed it a few maybe a 

378
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,960
year ago to see like how to do 
a, a smaller briefer second 

379
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,240
edition and I was just stunned 
with like how good a job we did 

380
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,800
with this bizarre production 
method. 

381
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,640
Yeah, no, it's great. 
It's in. 

382
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,920
So when you go listen to the 
brain trust, like those are the 

383
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:24,640
original episodes as they came 
out. 

384
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:29,600
And what's really interesting 
listening to it much later is 

385
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,360
and maybe you, maybe I'm 
completely wrong, but I 

386
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:40,160
recognized a bunch of games you 
guys eventually made after 

387
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,520
casting Phantoms. 
It felt like that story that you

388
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,640
hear about like picks, all the 
best Pixar movies were all done 

389
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,760
in like 1 meeting like on the 
back of a napkin. 

390
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,280
They had like 6. 
And it's just like, dude, I feel

391
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,400
like you talked about a game 
that eventually became Torque in

392
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,080
there. 
There was a bunch of stuff that 

393
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,400
Adam talked about that I know 
eventually became there's 

394
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,760
probably at least three or four 
more games that came out of the 

395
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,880
ideas from that, which was 
really cool to hear after those 

396
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,160
games existed where it's like 
don't know, like that's that's 

397
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:06,400
you know, that's where it came 
from. 

398
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,640
That's awesome. 
One of those is Big Grave 

399
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,520
Fashion Fantasy, which you can 
go to biggrave.com for the 

400
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,800
Kickstarter that'll be happening
this year, but that's one that 

401
00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:19,720
I've just been continuously 
working on since that pitch. 

402
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,440
Then that was maybe 9. 
How long ago that was. 

403
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,560
It was a long time ago. 
It was a while ago. 

404
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,880
You've been talking about that 
one for a very long time. 

405
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,680
Yeah, yeah. 
It will exist. 

406
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,440
It will, I played it a lot so 
someone else must play it at 

407
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:45,640
some point. 
But but why so? 

408
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,240
So take that back even one more 
step. 

409
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:52,160
Like you, you said you met Adam 
at this Zine meet up or 

410
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,640
whatever. 
How did you get from that to 

411
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:56,960
running a Kickstarter that 
turned into the podcast? 

412
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:03,360
Yeah, we exchanged stuff and 
then Adam invited me on the Wish

413
00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:11,200
You Were Here Zine Quest while I
was doing Black Mass for my Zine

414
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,240
Quest on Zine Quest One, which 
happened. 

415
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,360
I want to feel old. 
Team Quest One happened 99 years

416
00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:24,440
ago and they invited me on to 
collaborate on a couple of those

417
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:29,640
games and there was a bunch of 
like collab projects that 

418
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,480
happened there. 
Adam has always been really 

419
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:38,640
generous with their time and 
attention and mentorship. 

420
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,080
It's just a very cool thing that
they do. 

421
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:48,000
I've I went to go visit Adam in 
between game hall and like 

422
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,400
traveling home from game hall 
and then Adam was like, I'm 

423
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,520
sorry, I just needed a second 
and then took a call just 

424
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,480
mentoring like 2 artists that 
we're working on like AT shirt 

425
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,760
Commission for a lot of speech. 
I was like, you just do this. 

426
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,560
Like this is just something that
is a is a huge part of your life

427
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,960
and you're so good at it. 
So yeah, there's this awesome 

428
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:11,520
like counter inspiration that we
have on each other where we're, 

429
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,960
and you can like feel it in the 
podcast for sure when we're like

430
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:20,840
spinning out games, which is 
kind of the thing we do now that

431
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,680
we just kind of want to excite 
each other as much as possible 

432
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:29,080
with oblique takes on design 
ideas and stuff like that. 

433
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,440
But I mean, that's, I mean, 
that's what people should be 

434
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,880
doing and that's where the space
kind of used to be before. 

435
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,960
Like I struggle. 
I really in my own mind and on 

436
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,880
the show, we refuse to call it 
the indie TGRBG space anymore. 

437
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:49,360
It's much more of the, I call it
the small market space because 

438
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:50,880
it it does. 
We talked about this a little 

439
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,840
bit and we're not going to dig 
deep into it right now because I

440
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,680
dig deep into it now. 
But like, you know, the a lot of

441
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,440
the space that we currently 
inhabit, especially the primary 

442
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,680
big indie TG RBG space on blue 
sky is very product focused, not

443
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:07,080
very like, I don't know, DIY, 
you know, innovative focused as 

444
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,320
as it was, you know, kind of 
more so in the past, maybe pre 

445
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,200
COVID or just after. 
So it's it's awesome. 

446
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,120
Like that's you know, that's one
thing that I've always loved 

447
00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:19,680
about Adam and always loved 
about you too, is you guys never

448
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,720
stopped making the weird freako 
shit, which is exactly the stuff

449
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,080
that I loved. 
And while we started doing the 

450
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,240
show. 
So we need more of that. 

451
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:33,320
It's I I think a tricky part is 
that that spirit exists in like 

452
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,040
all art forms. 
Like that's going to come up. 

453
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:42,520
And when you do have a lot of 
kick starters making six figures

454
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:49,000
plus on huge I PS like I'm 
thinking of I, I heard this 

455
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,640
phrase the triple I space for 
for Indies, but like, you know, 

456
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,200
your Magpies who are working in 
giant licensed products. 

457
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,160
I don't think you can. 
They're even in the same weight 

458
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,440
class. 
But there are the sickos out 

459
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,760
there, and I'm thinking of 
groups like You are Beheld, 

460
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:10,280
which has a Zine Quest project 
out right now making very freako

461
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:16,600
sicko games designers who just 
continue to be on their shit. 

462
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,080
Like Tim Hutchings, who is just 
like you. 

463
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,360
He'll never so you can never 
make him stop. 

464
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,280
Just going to keep doing it. 
Jennifer Adcock, Aaron King is 

465
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,560
in the chat. 
They're they're out there. 

466
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:37,560
And I think a little bit of it 
could be like an optics problem 

467
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:43,880
that there is not a way to, you 
have to do lots of digging or 

468
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:48,320
just staying very close to the 
pulse of what's happening to, to

469
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,360
find that stuff out. 
And the more moneyed 

470
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,280
organizations have a way of 
taking up a lot of air. 

471
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:02,600
And yeah, post Ogli have no 
fucking idea what what the what 

472
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:07,680
the deal is. 
I'm just gonna I I've stated my 

473
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,040
opinion so many times on the 
show about that. 

474
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,080
I'm gonna let that one go. 
But so but you so so we've 

475
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:13,680
talked about you and Adam 
working together a lot. 

476
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,360
But you you work. 
You have your own thing. 

477
00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:18,520
You are not world champ Gameco. 
You are good luck press. 

478
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,520
How did that come to be? 
And you do that with Seb Pines. 

479
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,560
Like, how did you guys get 
together and form? 

480
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:30,360
Good luck, Press. 
Yeah, we did a Zine stream with 

481
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:35,240
Shelcon who awesome artists I've
mentioned a couple times but you

482
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,760
can find all of their stuff on 
Portable City Is currently 

483
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:45,040
working on the new edition of 
Swords Without Master by 

484
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,800
Unwritten Earths. 
Don't get mad at me, Epidiah and

485
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:50,920
Nathan. 
I forget the name of the 

486
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:56,320
publisher, but we did a Zine 
stream together, which just 

487
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,520
involved us talking about zines,
maybe making a Zine on the show,

488
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,960
and then doing a show and tell 
at the end, and it was really 

489
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,000
fun. 
We did that at the like, 

490
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:12,000
beginning of the pandemic. 
Additionally, I met Seb at a 

491
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,800
Zine exchange as well. 
Though I meet all these really 

492
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,760
important people in my life. 
Here's the lesson you got to 

493
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:22,240
take away from today's episode. 
Go to a Zine exchange. 

494
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,280
You meet the most important 
people you'll ever meet. 

495
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:30,560
Nurture the friendships. 
I got to I got to get I'm I am, 

496
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,280
I am in an awful part of the 
country and I got to get to a 

497
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,040
better part eventually and and 
actually meet some some people 

498
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,080
that have culture besides red 
hats and white pickup trucks. 

499
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,600
Yeah, but anyway, so so Z meet 
up. 

500
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:50,440
Yeah, we, we met there and then 
we started collaborating on 

501
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,360
stuff and mostly just like 
combining our shared interests 

502
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:59,920
of games and both looking for a 
way to fund our work and make 

503
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:02,400
our work. 
So Good Luck Press. 

504
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,680
I like to compare it to like a 
boutique repertory theater that 

505
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,920
you'd go to, you might not know 
what the movie is that's 

506
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,600
playing, but you know that it 
was curated and it's interesting

507
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,480
and it's going to like be 
surprising in some fundamental 

508
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:16,960
way. 
And so if you go to 

509
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,280
goodluckpress.co right now, 
you'll kind of see here's 

510
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,840
everything playing right now at 
Good Luck Press. 

511
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:28,880
And there's a lot of like 
inventive mechanics all over the

512
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,720
place. 
There's a lot of challenging 

513
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,800
themes. 
Recently said released We Shall 

514
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,120
be Monsters, which is like a 
Mary Shelley's Frankenstein 

515
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,480
inspired solo game where you're 
designing the perfect partner 

516
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,280
and in the process you kind of 
destroy your own conception of 

517
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,840
yourself and them for trying to 
even create such a thing such 

518
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,520
like devastating. 
You've got like my upcoming game

519
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:01,720
Plasmodics, which is if you we 
had a we got a advanced reader 

520
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,840
copyright here. 
Look at the app on the camera. 

521
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,680
Look at that, look at that. 
Let me turn up that saturation a

522
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:09,960
little bit. 
You really gotta see that I. 

523
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:15,200
Certainly did. 
Yeah, there we go. 

524
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,200
That's nice and bright. 
That's what it really looks 

525
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,800
like, yeah. 
Yeah, now that looks like RGB. 

526
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,400
I guess I'm seeing an RGB, which
is it was just great. 

527
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:30,240
But anyway, that's my kind of 
love letter to 1st edition Gamma

528
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:35,120
World. 
And it's as if you put it in the

529
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,000
microwave for 90 minutes and 
then huffed on the fumes of of 

530
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,840
whatever's left. 
Are you about to pull out a 

531
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:43,640
first edition of Gamma World 
right now? 

532
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,920
Why would I have that? 
Would I have the 1st edition of 

533
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,320
Gamma World? 
Oh, I don't even have one. 

534
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,280
That's it's going to be my gift 
to myself when I when it comes 

535
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,000
to that. 
That looks so good. 

536
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,360
Wow. 
Yeah, I spent too much money on 

537
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,600
it. 
It looks, but it's there. 

538
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,240
I also have I also have a boot 
hill. 

539
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,360
Hey, we got to play go over 
here. 

540
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,960
Oh, I want it really bad, 
especially because I kind of. 

541
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,440
Nice. 
I got to meet, I got to meet Mr.

542
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,680
Traveller, Mark Miller at Game 
Hulk on. 

543
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,560
That was my highlight. 
I want to reach out and be like,

544
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,600
come on, the show really bad. 
We've been meaning to do like a 

545
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:29,560
so part Traveller episode for so
long, but I made a game that is 

546
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,480
like indirectly kind of like a 
grand great grandchild of Boot 

547
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,720
Hill at this point. 
So like, I really want to play 

548
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,280
it. 
Yes, you're you're remind me the

549
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:39,400
name. 
I have a copy. 

550
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,000
Death cut in stone. 
Yeah. 

551
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:46,080
Yeah, but yes, we got to play 
Boot Hill too. 

552
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:47,920
I mean, I got all these fucking 
things here still sitting in 

553
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,040
plastic so it protects them, and
then I never get to play with 

554
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,800
them. 
But where were we tangented 

555
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:54,840
hard? 
Where do we tangent from game 

556
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:56,120
world? 
Plasmodics. 

557
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:57,680
There we go, plasmodics. 
We brought it back. 

558
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:05,640
But yeah, Seb and I, we're going
on our fifth year of Good Luck 

559
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,360
press. 
So we've been doing it since 

560
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:15,080
2021 and still going strong. 
We are full time game designers,

561
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:21,040
publishers and everyone who does
such a thing knows that most of 

562
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,960
our day is not doing game 
design, but we try our best to 

563
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,480
make as much as much art as 
possible. 

564
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,080
Yeah, and you also do a lot of 
editing. 

565
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,720
We talked about the Neo pets 
thing a bit. 

566
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:43,560
How do you as an editor and a 
game designer, obviously that's 

567
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,960
going to cross a lot, but how do
you kind of do both, especially 

568
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,600
working with somebody else? 
Do you always have the editor 

569
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,000
hat on? 
You always have the design hat 

570
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,240
on? 
Like do you find yourself 

571
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,120
editing your own design a bunch 
or like does it affect the way 

572
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,360
that you design? 
Like how does that work doing 

573
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,840
both kind of as much as you do? 
Yeah, so I come from like a 

574
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,400
technical publishing background.
I was like in tech editing for 

575
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,600
like 5 years before doing it for
RPGs. 

576
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:19,320
And I find that like when people
hire me, they kind of want the 

577
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,560
mechanically, is this exciting? 
What's going on here? 

578
00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:28,080
Is this connected to like a, a 
stream of game design? 

579
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:33,360
And I, I'd like to think because
I am really widely played, like 

580
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,800
I play lots of different types 
of things, I can recognize what 

581
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,360
the authors are going for and 
bring in my perspective. 

582
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,280
So like when I'm editing, you 
can see in the Neopets open 

583
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,480
dock, I guess we should make up 
a name for who these editors 

584
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,480
are. 
We're we're UN unwelcome to 

585
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:55,080
guest editors. 
That's that's who we are. 

586
00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:59,840
But I'm kind of narrating what 
I'm thinking, my thought process

587
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,600
as I'm moving through the 
manuscript, trying to keep like 

588
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:07,640
the author's goals in mind and, 
you know, being more true to 

589
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,640
like what their vision is or as 
opposed to my personal taste. 

590
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,040
Obviously, I cannot disconnect 
my personal taste from 

591
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,520
something. 
So something comes up that I 

592
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,200
think is either particularly 
like resonant and cool. 

593
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,960
I'll be like, OK, here's how you
double down and like, make this 

594
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,080
a feature, a signature mechanic 
of your game or like, hey, I'm 

595
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,600
not sure you should be able to 
water board people in the 

596
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:35,200
Neopets TT or PGI. 
Don't know if it's 100% 

597
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,440
necessary. 
I mean, at this point, why not? 

598
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:39,080
You know what? 
I mean. 

599
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,600
Yeah, why not? 
Is it the first? 

600
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,520
Adventure, like having a battle 
in the woods or something and 

601
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,520
I'm like what the fuck? 
It's happening. 

602
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,000
Drunk too. 
That's anyway. 

603
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,760
Some of these people honestly 
need to be taken out and beaten 

604
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:56,320
at this point. 
Why? 

605
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,600
Why are we like this? 
Why are we like this? 

606
00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:03,360
I would have let it you know why
if I didn't see that at its core

607
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,080
there was some like labor 
dispute issue where someone was 

608
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:11,160
not getting paid. 
So I'm like somebody call. 

609
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,680
You gotta you gotta hop in. 
Yeah, I saw that like this work 

610
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,360
has also not been paid or 
whatever. 

611
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,160
And it's the whole thing this 
fucking this. 

612
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,520
I'm just but like at the at the 
end of the day, realistically, 

613
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,960
when you see that Neopets is 
going to be running on 5E like 

614
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,080
you, it's got it was always 
going to be a train wreck like 

615
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,760
and I'm so happy. 
It is such a, it is such a like 

616
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:36,280
we all get to watch it. 
You know what I mean? 

617
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,160
Like it is widely publicized 
train. 

618
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,640
It's not a quiet train wreck. 
It is for all of us to see. 

619
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,760
And I'm very happy at the very 
least that we get to all see 

620
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,200
that together. 
Yeah. 

621
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,920
It's man, man, why are we like 
this? 

622
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:54,920
But we've. 
Yeah, through my editing, I've 

623
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,480
gotten to work with some 
extremely cool artists and some 

624
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:05,680
amazing games that I'm super 
proud of and people all over the

625
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:07,960
world. 
So it's, it's a very like 

626
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,680
beautiful and connecting part of
my job that I'm really happy 

627
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,640
with. 
That's awesome. 

628
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,960
And like I said, do you so like 
I, I found myself having a 

629
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,920
problem on the show that I had 
to not on the show, but kind of 

630
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,760
because of the show, because we 
do, we do critique review of of 

631
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,160
stuff. 
You know, we used to do. 

632
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,760
We used to have three episodes 
where we went page by page to 

633
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,960
the books and I still miss those
and love those. 

634
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,600
But when people would send me 
stuff, my brain would 

635
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,240
automatically click into like 
kind of that where like my, my 

636
00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:39,560
brain would bring up the metrics
that we go and, and start going 

637
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,760
through it. 
So I had to train myself to be 

638
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,320
like, what kind of feedback 
would you like to hear on this 

639
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,840
before I said anything that was 
a. 

640
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,800
Cute thing I had to learn to do 
in play testing. 

641
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:51,280
It's like literally that 
question. 

642
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:55,160
So like, that's an incredible 
encapsulation of like some 

643
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:56,480
growth that I had to go through 
too. 

644
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,120
So that's what that's what I 
meant by like being an editor 

645
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,000
and a designer and stuff. 
Like when someone does come to 

646
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,080
you with something, do you fight
like you find yourself being 

647
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,320
like, hey, like just accept it 
and say thanks, I'll take a 

648
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:07,960
peek. 
Or like, is that a battle you 

649
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,640
have or or have you kind of 
absorbed that in? 

650
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,080
I I think this is best answered 
in talking about a play test. 

651
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:19,640
I played in one time at 
Metatopia where it was a great 

652
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:21,400
group. 
It was an interesting game. 

653
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:23,600
It was like a hex crawl inspired
thing. 

654
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,920
And during the feedback portion,
there was some stuff that just 

655
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,920
didn't click with my 
understanding of hex crawls. 

656
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:37,000
And I asked in the feedback 
phase of like, have you played 

657
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,120
one before? 
And the designers like, not yet,

658
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:41,040
Not yet. 
I haven't. 

659
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,680
I was like, I don't have any 
feedback that nothing I could 

660
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:48,080
say could help, really. 
Yeah. 

661
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:56,400
So yeah, you always want to make
sure you know, the the feedback 

662
00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,600
that you need to express is why 
we have group chats and the 

663
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:05,200
feedback that's like the 
socially responsible safe, I 

664
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,840
don't know what like what's 
acceptable as a form of 

665
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,800
feedback. 
It's always good to like hear 

666
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,520
designers goals. 
What are you trying to do? 

667
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,040
And then evaluating on their own
stuff. 

668
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:21,680
So what I do in playtest and 
what I do in edits is just ask 

669
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,840
upfront, what do you want this 
to do? 

670
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,280
How's it going to happen? 
I'm actually gearing up to do 

671
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:33,360
like a book cover review stream,
like a clip stream on Monday. 

672
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:38,520
And I made sure that like I only
want to talk about work in 

673
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,280
progress because evaluating 
something that's out is like 

674
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,320
it's successful, like it's 
already out. 

675
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:48,160
You know what, that why would I?
I think then a thumbs up. 

676
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,640
Like what really could you be 
asking for? 

677
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,200
For that? 
Maybe, maybe that's just my, 

678
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:59,120
yeah, my feeling. 
Like your view on like. 

679
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:06,240
On what the goal of critique is 
like, I don't want to just wreck

680
00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:09,160
somebody for the pleasure of 
wrecking them. 

681
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,520
Yeah, I mean, you know, that we,
we that's what we try to do here

682
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,840
on the show too. 
Like we don't, we very rarely 

683
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,080
have done in like 300 episodes. 
I can think of maybe 3 or 4 

684
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,040
games we reviewed that we just 
didn't like. 

685
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,800
And most of the time it's 
because we realized after we had

686
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,040
already like Got Muscle V3 that 
we didn't like them and we 

687
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,040
decided to do them anyway 
because some of them, and I 

688
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,160
won't name them, we should have 
a counter for the 1 

689
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,480
specifically. 
But it's because we wanted, we 

690
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,280
were like, we love so many of 
these games that are hacks. 

691
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,040
Let's look at the original 
system. 

692
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,520
And then just did not really 
vibe with the original system, 

693
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,120
but wanted to kind of understand
why. 

694
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,240
So we did that. 
But like we we have acted been 

695
00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:53,120
like, no, we won't review this 
because we just don't like 

696
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:54,400
there's no reason to be mean on 
the Internet. 

697
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:55,400
I'll be critical. 
I'll be blunt. 

698
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,640
I'll be very honest, but I'm 
never going to just be mean. 

699
00:40:59,360 --> 00:40:59,960
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

700
00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:01,440
Exactly. 
And So what? 

701
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:02,320
Yeah. 
So it's like, why? 

702
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,040
Why, you know? 
Yeah. 

703
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,160
And then when you like, it's 
important to mark when you have 

704
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,280
those reactions that are like, I
severely don't like this. 

705
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,080
And here's why. 
That's for the group chat. 

706
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,160
That's like for your cohort, you
know, finding like groups of 

707
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,440
like minded artists for you 
don't have to have everything 

708
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:24,760
set in stone on blue sky or 
whatever it is. 

709
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:30,600
It's very good to be able to fit
and it's very necessary. 

710
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:35,520
Yeah, just. 
The number of times I've like, 

711
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,760
thought about writing a message 
and it's just like, Nope, that's

712
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:39,200
Adm. 
That is Adm. 

713
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:43,280
To one of these three. 
People who will understand and 

714
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,880
be just as mad as me and then we
can get out of our system and 

715
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,360
move on. 
Yeah, that is that is if I did 

716
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,960
not have those one or two 
discord friends that I know 

717
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,000
feels how I feel, it would be a 
lot different. 

718
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,200
I I'm safer on blue sky for 
those people. 

719
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:06,400
So I appreciate you, but but you
know, it is, it is what it is 

720
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:08,440
critique editing. 
I mean, there's a lot of 

721
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,240
discussion about editing 
critique review, what should be,

722
00:42:11,240 --> 00:42:14,520
what shouldn't be. 
You know, it is, it is, it is 

723
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,040
what it is. 
I guess at this point, I mean, 

724
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,200
there's obviously a very big 
difference between editing the 

725
00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:20,640
editing space and like the 
critique interview space. 

726
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,680
I was gonna say 1's necessary. 
They're both necessary for, 

727
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,640
like, good art, right. 
But you know, it, we again, 

728
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:30,080
we're not gonna dig too deep 
into that one. 

729
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,200
So one thing we've talked about 
multiple Times Now is 

730
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,800
plasmodics. 
This is the one that is. 

731
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:38,800
I mean, I have a copy. 
So it exists. 

732
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:40,480
It's cooking. 
Everyone else is gonna get 

733
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,200
their. 
I'll get another copy here soon.

734
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,000
Yeah. 
So let's say what's the deal 

735
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,760
with that? 
Yeah, let's, well, let's talk 

736
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,080
about plasmodics. 
I got, I got a pretty picture of

737
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,600
it now over here on the screen. 
So what, what is plasmodics? 

738
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:56,320
What's going on with plasmonics 
and when? 

739
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,280
When are we going to get all the
all the plasmos, plasmoids and 

740
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:00,960
whatnot? 
When are we getting the 

741
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:02,560
plasmoids? 
Well, you've been getting there,

742
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,360
have been accumulating in your 
bloodstream this whole time. 

743
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,560
So that's that's the deal, 
right? 

744
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:12,960
So this is a sci-fi post 
apocalyptic adventure game where

745
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,800
you play the plasmodics. 
These are the mutant freaks that

746
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,960
are in the weird future. 
Then things you got to know 

747
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,640
about the plasmodics is that 
they're weird in the body with 

748
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,960
mutations and they're weird in 
the personality with nuances. 

749
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:29,160
And so together you, you know, 
randomly roll up this 

750
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,920
collection, this miserable 
collection of, of powers and 

751
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:37,920
abilities and quirks, and you 
navigate your character through 

752
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,480
the trials and tribulations of 
the the destroyed and 

753
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,920
smithereens world. 
So Plasmodics is like a system 

754
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:51,680
inspired by Into the odd and 
cyber metal using mechanics from

755
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:53,800
both. 
I think most notably is like 

756
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,240
taking a lot of the cyber metal 
stuff here. 

757
00:43:56,240 --> 00:43:58,240
You can see this on the screen 
right now. 

758
00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:02,920
But yeah, I, I think both of 
them super influential and 

759
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:11,640
important and you have mechanics
like Fallout, that's which is a 

760
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,400
cyber metal mechanic about the 
things you do affect the world 

761
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,400
around you. 
So every role incurs some 

762
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:23,440
fallout and I use into the odd 
like dice mechanics to kind of 

763
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,720
make it even more furious and 
messy and goopy and weird. 

764
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,400
Anyone familiar with Gamma World
will know about things like the 

765
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:36,240
artifact identification table, 
cryptic alliances, things like 

766
00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:38,880
that. 
I kind of took the feeling of 

767
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:44,120
playing Gamma World First 
Edition very closely to the 

768
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,240
rules at the beginning of the 
pandemic with a group of people 

769
00:44:47,240 --> 00:44:51,680
in the Braintrust Discord and 
kind of getting the game 

770
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:55,640
experience out of that and how 
inventive and interesting it 

771
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:59,560
was. 
And making a system that more 

772
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:04,080
quickly accesses that feeling 
than the Gamma World, which if 

773
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,800
you have any familiarity, 
there's like 20 matrices tables 

774
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:13,160
you'd have to use for, for 
determining like radiation and, 

775
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:18,680
and things like this. 
So the, there's an adventure in 

776
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:20,520
the back of the book. 
I'm working on the adventure 

777
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:22,840
collection right now, which is 
why we're delayed. 

778
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:29,200
I am sending the final version 
to the editor to work on in a 

779
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,120
few weeks. 
So we are like reaching the home

780
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,080
stretch. 
I just wanted to make sure that 

781
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:37,880
when this came out there was 
like a lot of adventure content 

782
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:41,200
for people to use, an experiment
and both a challenge to myself 

783
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:46,200
for writing that. 
We've got art by Zach Hazard, 

784
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:50,400
Vopen behind Artist Find Liminal
Horror, and some other 

785
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:54,800
incredible games, including 
another bug hunt to the cover 

786
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:58,680
for that, a couple other 
mothership things, and worked on

787
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,120
portraits for mutants that you 
can see about halfway through 

788
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:07,240
the book in here. 
And additionally, I did the 

789
00:46:07,240 --> 00:46:09,760
layout. 
We've got editing by Sub Pines 

790
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:13,680
here. 
There's editing by Seda, who's 

791
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:15,920
an incredible editor for the 
Adventure Collection. 

792
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,280
Yeah, there you go. 
On the screen we got some 

793
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:22,560
freaking mutants. 
So the characters end up 

794
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:29,120
becoming this constellation of 
unique powers, mutations, 

795
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:35,480
nuances, and they all become 
like jokes or secrets or 

796
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:40,560
surprises to reveal and play. 
And so it makes for like a 

797
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:46,800
compelling, furious, strange, 
very human level of gameplay 

798
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:48,120
whenever I get to play this 
game. 

799
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,360
I mean, it's wonderful. 
How, how, how close is this 

800
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:55,800
going to be to the one that I 
actually get? 

801
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:57,680
Like I know you said you're 
working on the event collection.

802
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:02,200
Is the primary book like done at
this point? 

803
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:03,520
And that's what I'm physically 
holding. 

804
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,680
Yeah, that's that. 
That's awesome. 

805
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,160
So I will get 2 I will send I 
will send Hunter one if he 

806
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:16,360
doesn't have one but. 
Yes, so the I can talk about 

807
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,120
what the adventure collection 
is. 

808
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:23,320
So plasmodics is the system and 
plasmods are like the world's 

809
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:28,680
and stuff. 
So I describe it as like it is a

810
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:32,440
cartridge you plug in or like a 
modular synthesizer you're like 

811
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,080
connecting to the rules. 
And so the one that comes in the

812
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:39,720
core book is called King Tide 
and that is a sun bleached and 

813
00:47:39,720 --> 00:47:44,920
flooded world. 
That tidal wave comes through 

814
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:48,680
once every few days or once 
every hour, just like power 

815
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:50,760
washing the world over and over 
again. 

816
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:53,360
And so the first time it was a 
disaster. 

817
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:57,400
The fifth time it was like a 
marvel and like the thousandth 

818
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:01,680
time we began to live with it. 
We are figuring out what this 

819
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:03,320
world is like and how to live in
it. 

820
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:09,240
So it's got like climate 
disaster acceptance and how do 

821
00:48:09,240 --> 00:48:11,360
we move on after things like 
that? 

822
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:17,160
And so the adventure collection 
is called Firmaculture, which 

823
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:18,680
takes place in the world of King
tide. 

824
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,880
But you can put it anywhere. 
And the assumption there is that

825
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:27,320
500 years ago, all of the 
billionaires of our current 

826
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,920
world created bunkers to live 
in. 

827
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:35,840
And each one of their bunkers 
not only were built to protect 

828
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:41,000
them, but it was also to protect
their how, how do you say their 

829
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:45,440
outlook on the world. 
So to kind of freeze dry and 

830
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:53,320
preserve what these people think
the ideal version of humanity 

831
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,680
should be. 
And so when the time is right, 

832
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,640
they can release their ideology 
on the world and themselves. 

833
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,000
Yeah, they've been surviving 
with, like, either cryosleep or 

834
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,200
geriatric surgeries or things 
like this. 

835
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:10,280
The time was never right. 
They have been fermenting in 

836
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:13,400
their little bunkers and they 
are cracking open. 

837
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:18,120
And you play the people shucking
the bunkers open and finding the

838
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,600
culture rights. 
They're called cultures, finding

839
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:24,800
the culture rights, dealing with
whatever's inside and 

840
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:29,000
discovering like this intrigue 
mystery that's going on of where

841
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:38,840
the like mother culture is. 
Wow, you're and This is why 

842
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,680
we're fans of of you and Adam 
and and everything that you guys

843
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:46,400
do like this is first of all, I 
mean, and people have said 

844
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,520
before that art is great. 
The the graphic design 

845
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:51,960
throughout this entire book, 
much like how beautiful torque 

846
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:56,920
was, is absolutely stunning, but
the substance of everything 

847
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:59,040
you're talking as soon as you 
said billionaires create, I was 

848
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,760
like, wait, wait, wait, oh, 
Nope, it's just ways to protect 

849
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:06,200
themselves. 
Like that's wonderful and just 

850
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,240
the idea. 
It's just like, OK, now when the

851
00:50:08,240 --> 00:50:13,280
wave comes through, it's just 
Tuesday is such a, I don't know,

852
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,840
kind of condemnation on like our
current like situation right now

853
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,240
is just like, oh, like we had 
yet another record-breaking 

854
00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:23,760
storm and a bunch of people died
in a fire that like raged across

855
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:27,320
3 States and on to the next news
cycle. 

856
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:34,400
Is, is really, really prescient,
which is which is and I, I would

857
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:36,520
say which is cool, but also like
horrifying. 

858
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,560
It's. 
Like I like the, the, the 

859
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:43,200
feeling, the vibe that you get 
from like the places in 

860
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,360
plasmonics, or at least I hope 
is that like, we're going to 

861
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:50,360
keep on just like human beings. 
We're the same way that we are 

862
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,040
now 2000 years ago, 2000 years 
in the future. 

863
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:54,960
We're there's going to be 
sarcastic people. 

864
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,040
There's going to be annoying 
people are going to be cool 

865
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:00,160
people, right? 
It's we're going to act the same

866
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,560
way. 
And the thing that's going to 

867
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:05,600
change our present 
circumstances. 

868
00:51:05,720 --> 00:51:10,200
And so with this like Klifi 
stuff, I like to push and torque

869
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,160
was a bit like this. 
I like to push as far as it can 

870
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:21,240
go and see what kind of not post
apocalyptic pessimism we have, 

871
00:51:21,240 --> 00:51:24,600
but like how we will live after 
the human era has ended. 

872
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:31,240
And in doing like research for 
this, especially about like 

873
00:51:31,240 --> 00:51:37,400
bunker dudes and, and preppers, 
there's this understanding for 

874
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:42,600
preppers that it's three days 
until cannibalism. 

875
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,800
Like when the thing happens, 
whatever it is, it's three days 

876
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,200
before we are tearing each other
apart. 

877
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:53,400
When in reality, we see in 
disaster zones all the time, 

878
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,120
even in places where you think 
this, whatever your preconceived

879
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:02,680
notions are, that people come 
together, they collaborate, and 

880
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:04,960
they work to make life better 
and easier. 

881
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,880
And you can find it with like 
blackouts or like huge 

882
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,680
snowstorms happening like this 
just happens on Earth. 

883
00:52:11,720 --> 00:52:16,680
And so the kind of perspective 
of plasmodics I hope that people

884
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:22,760
see is that it's a lot of kind 
of shaking off all these ideas 

885
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,600
we had about what the future 
should be or what the end of the

886
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,680
world should be as the people 
who are inhabiting that future 

887
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:34,640
and played for laughs, played 
seriously, all that stuff. 

888
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:39,960
Yeah, no. 
And you're, I mean, it's really 

889
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:41,560
true. 
And it's really interesting what

890
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:43,160
you said. 
Like everyone expects the worst 

891
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,360
at all times. 
And unless you're 10 people up 

892
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:49,240
on the top of a mountain, you 
know, with eight feet of snow 

893
00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:52,080
around you for days, usually it 
doesn't get to cannibalism. 

894
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:57,360
Like a lot of bad things happen 
and you have to get pretty far 

895
00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:58,680
to get to cannibalism. 
But I mean, I live in 

896
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:02,480
California, you know, and and in
certain places I've lived, 

897
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,960
they'll straight up say, like if
this road gets like hit by the 

898
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,160
earthquake, there's nothing 
coming to you. 

899
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,280
You got 10 days before anyone 
will be able to get you. 

900
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,400
You're not going to like just 
because of one O one goes down. 

901
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:19,080
You're not going to suddenly 
like half a week later be eating

902
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:20,880
your neighbors like that's. 
Not how it works. 

903
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,760
You're not figuring out like 
your neighbors weak spot. 

904
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:28,280
Yeah, the worst of the worst 
will do the worst because that 

905
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:29,680
does happen in natural 
disasters. 

906
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:31,800
I know a lot of crazy shit 
happened in Louisiana after 

907
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,600
Katrina and everything, but at 
the end of the day, most people 

908
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,480
are at least not the worst 
people ever. 

909
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:40,320
Not that they're all great 
people, but most of them aren't 

910
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,920
the worst ever. 
And at the end of the day, 

911
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:45,680
people like society exists and 
people want to hit an 

912
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:50,320
equilibrium and at least be 
like, OK, and people will strive

913
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,840
to be just OK together if if 
they can all be OK. 

914
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,160
So that's a really. 
It's a lucrative business to 

915
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:00,120
sell this idea that the future 
will not be OK. 

916
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,080
That the and these people, 
there's a book I read called I 

917
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:06,360
think it's called Bunker or 
Sheltered or something like 

918
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:07,400
that. 
I'll have to dig it up. 

919
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,880
But take all these people, dread
merchants. 

920
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:14,120
They sell this feeling that it 
like we are on a knife's edge. 

921
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:18,160
And you can prepare right now 
and you can prepare. 

922
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:22,040
There's a right way to get ready
for the future, which will be 

923
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:25,480
horrible. 
Definitely a a right, if you 

924
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:32,880
know what I'm saying idea. 
But listen, fear merchants are 

925
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:37,000
are are are the way to to accrue
in and and maintain power. 

926
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:39,520
So it's not that that's that far
off, right? 

927
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:43,160
In in Vermiculture, we've got 
some of your favorite 

928
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:46,760
billionaires represented, 
whether they are tech 

929
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:53,840
billionaires or lifestyle 
Wellness gurus or we've got 

930
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:58,600
we've got a couple. 
And yeah, this adventure that 

931
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:03,880
you're looking through right 
now, the cruciform kind of is 

932
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:10,760
inspired by the autonomous 
robots from Boston Dynamics and 

933
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:13,920
the things they're meant for and
the things they're used for and 

934
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,120
the things that they the ideas 
that they sell. 

935
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:22,960
So you there's a big 
confrontation like a choogy 

936
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:28,080
startup office place this. 
Choogy startup office place. 

937
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,840
You are young enough to use the 
term choogy. 

938
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,200
I'm old enough to be offended by
it, but. 

939
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,200
It is they would. 
Does the designers think it's 

940
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,320
choogy like that's how they 
made? 

941
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:42,280
That's funny. 
I haven't. 

942
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:45,200
It's been so long since I heard 
an actual person say that, not 

943
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:47,760
just someone on Instagram. 
That that's funny. 

944
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:54,000
So you said that specifically 
you you want to make the 

945
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:56,240
vermiculture Zine as a challenge
to yourself. 

946
00:55:56,240 --> 00:55:57,720
You know, we've talked a lot 
about the show. 

947
00:55:57,720 --> 00:55:59,600
We've talked a lot with like 
Adam and stuff about it on the 

948
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:06,560
show too, where people will make
a game and move on, where I love

949
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:08,760
games and I love playing games 
and I love mechanics and I love 

950
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:10,240
systems. 
But a lot of people like finding

951
00:56:10,240 --> 00:56:13,400
a system and playing with that 
system kind of like as their 

952
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:18,800
thing, not just, you know, 5E, 
but a lot of them and people 

953
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:21,680
wanting to support or people 
needing to support their systems

954
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:23,480
more. 
Was that any of the thought 

955
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,120
process behind like why you're 
so adamant to get the adventure 

956
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:29,880
out or or why are you so adamant
that you said as a challenge to 

957
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:32,000
yourself that you want to have 
that done before? 

958
00:56:33,240 --> 00:56:38,360
Yeah, to it's a thing that I 
feel like Indies here a lot, 

959
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:41,400
which is you should support your
game, don't just release it and 

960
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:46,080
put it down. 
So I wanted to have playable 

961
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:52,160
content for plasmodics the more 
another goal was to let's learn 

962
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:56,880
how to design adventures and 
let's get like real feedback. 

963
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:01,960
Let's use real techniques and 
let's test the fuck out of them.

964
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:05,000
For the case of the adventure of
the back of the book 

965
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:08,120
specifically. 
Like I ran it so many times, but

966
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:16,720
adventure writing is 100% has 
nothing to do with game design 

967
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:20,280
in a system standpoint. 
It is like such a different 

968
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:25,920
skill set. 
It is extremely fun, very 

969
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:32,040
rewarding, very difficult. 
And I got into this seesaw 

970
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:37,960
situation where I would figure 
out how to write it and then 

971
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,680
test it and then get to the end 
of it and then find out that 

972
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:44,160
like I've learned something. 
So now I have to go back here 

973
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:48,080
and improve it. 
And then I this like gradual 

974
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:53,520
increasing and increasing of 
quality and my own perception of

975
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:57,480
how I think it works and how it 
should work and my skills 

976
00:57:57,480 --> 00:57:59,360
basically improving in real 
time. 

977
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:03,720
And so part of the delay is 
like, I simply just got better 

978
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:07,520
at it at a rate where I didn't 
like what I wrote a month ago. 

979
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:13,880
So that kept on happening. 
And adventures rock, they're 

980
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:16,280
great. 
They're super useful. 

981
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:18,960
I used to be like an improv only
GM. 

982
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:22,920
And the more burned out and busy
I've gotten, the more I've used 

983
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:29,680
adventures and the more I, I'm 
in awe of, like, how they work, 

984
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:32,880
how people write them and what 
they can do at the table. 

985
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:37,560
Yeah, adventures are. 
Interesting. 

986
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:39,320
I think a lot of people have 
opinions in the space about 

987
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:40,760
adventures. 
I think we need more good 

988
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:43,600
adventures. 
I personally am not like. 

989
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:47,320
I think adventures are a good 
tool to have in a lot of the 

990
00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:49,640
systems that I run. 
I'm kind of more of the improv. 

991
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:51,720
Like you. 
I really love adventures that 

992
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:55,560
are just give me the people and 
the places and and we'll tell 

993
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:59,400
the story. 
You know, I my first game was 5E

994
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:03,320
and I read a lot of adventures 
that were just novels with dice 

995
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:04,160
rolls. 
Yeah. 

996
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:07,920
And I think a lot of my thought 
about adventures was kind of a 

997
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:13,360
like flipping that 180, like 
just trying to go run in the 

998
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:16,680
opposite direction of that. 
But I think adventures, 

999
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:18,520
especially depending on the 
system you're in, you know, 

1000
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:21,920
like, like they're tools to use 
and depending on what you're 

1001
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:23,720
using them for and how much 
information they're giving, 

1002
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:25,400
they're, they're great. 
And we should have more 

1003
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:27,760
adventures in the space. 
You know, people have opinions 

1004
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:29,640
and they put them online about 
how adventures should be. 

1005
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:31,520
And I think if we all meet 
somewhere in the middle, we'd 

1006
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:37,080
all be better for it. 
But, but I'm excited to, to, to 

1007
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:40,040
get to that. 
Are you, do you think all of 

1008
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:41,800
your stuff kind of moving 
forward, you're going to kind of

1009
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,000
try to learn more into design 
plus adventure or do you think 

1010
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:50,480
you're going to be more of a a 
systems person kind of forever? 

1011
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:53,440
Yeah, great question. 
I think I am. 

1012
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:58,200
My stated goal in making RPG's 
is to make one of each game. 

1013
00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:04,360
It's kind of part of the project
and part of that, like what does

1014
01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:06,960
a game include? 
Conception? 

1015
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:11,760
I have really tied, like what is
the first session of gameplay 

1016
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:13,960
look like for this game I'm 
making? 

1017
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:15,520
What do I want the first session
to be? 

1018
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:20,040
And I think the more I take that
seriously and the more I want to

1019
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:23,960
do experience design, like a 
little bit broader than just 

1020
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:27,280
adventure design or game design.
What kind of experiences do I 

1021
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:28,520
want people to have at the 
table? 

1022
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:35,960
Some games just feel like they 
need this support setting, NPC 

1023
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:41,080
situation, scenario content and 
to like harken back to like I 

1024
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:46,720
used to be an improv only GM. 
I'm still improving the same 

1025
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:51,280
amount when running adventures. 
I just have to invent less 

1026
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:55,640
crucial idea chunks. 
And so it frees up a little bit 

1027
01:00:55,640 --> 01:01:01,720
of processing power so I can 
inhabit a character better or 

1028
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:07,000
present a situation or like 
manicure the adventure to have 

1029
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:10,200
the pieces that I want coming to
the forefront and compose or 

1030
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:13,800
arrange the composition from a 
musical standpoint. 

1031
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:20,080
But for Big Grave, I want to 
have like locations and then PCs

1032
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:22,720
you can deal with. 
I don't know if it needs the 

1033
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:26,360
exact kind of room by room 
description that something like 

1034
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:29,560
Plasmodics needs, but I think to
answer your question, I'm going 

1035
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:32,840
to tune it to whatever the 
design has in mind. 

1036
01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:35,840
Some games it will never come 
up, and some games it'll be like

1037
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:40,400
show me the dungeon straight up.
Show me what's underground here.

1038
01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:43,240
Yeah, yeah. 
I mean, you know, like I said, I

1039
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:46,600
think, I think it really depends
on what you're doing there. 

1040
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:48,760
There are games that are 
frameworks and there's games 

1041
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:52,440
that are experiences. 
And you know, I, I wish more 

1042
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:56,920
people in the space kind of 
realized that games are genres 

1043
01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:00,440
and it's OK to not like metal 
and it's OK to not like jazz and

1044
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:02,840
it's OK to like pop and it's OK 
to like this other thing. 

1045
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:05,480
But if all you do is listen to 
pop, it's really weird to get 

1046
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:07,240
all butthurt about metal, you 
know what I mean? 

1047
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:10,440
So. 
Nothing to do with each other 

1048
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:13,440
like. 
Right, so it's just like when 

1049
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:16,520
all you do is play story games 
when then butt talk shit on the 

1050
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:21,080
OSR like you, I don't know 
there, there's and vice versa, 

1051
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:25,080
obviously very much vice versa. 
But you know, it really depends 

1052
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:27,640
on the system. 
Likewise hearing some OSR 

1053
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:30,760
designers talk about what they 
think story games encapsulate 

1054
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:34,960
straight up spooky. 
Same way that hearings like pure

1055
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:38,000
story gamers talk about what 
their impression of the OSR is. 

1056
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:40,760
It is like I don't. 
It just does. 

1057
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:43,080
It's not connected to my 
experience of playing both of 

1058
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:44,800
those things. 
Not to say that those 

1059
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:48,200
experiences didn't happen, but. 
That's the thing that's I mean, 

1060
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:51,480
and it's interesting. 
So like I said, system by 

1061
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:54,080
system, you know, I like 
adventures, but I think I'd 

1062
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:56,800
learn more in the systems I play
into ones that are more 

1063
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:01,120
frameworks that kind of like 
give you tools and then you Add 

1064
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:04,360
all that stuff on versus games 
that are more like experiences 

1065
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:08,120
where you need the adventure 
would not necessarily need, but 

1066
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:11,120
the adventure is part of the 
experience and having that is, 

1067
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:13,440
is really important. 
So there's never going to be 

1068
01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:15,680
like a, this is how it works. 
This is the right way to do a 

1069
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:17,120
thing. 
It really depends on the system,

1070
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:20,520
depends on the genre. 
It depends on like everything 

1071
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:22,440
that you're doing. 
So like you said, it's really 

1072
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:26,200
interesting to hear plasmatics 
needs more than what your next 

1073
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:28,320
game could have. 
So as long as you're supporting 

1074
01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:31,720
it with what it needs versus 
being like, I have to have this 

1075
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:34,760
for it no matter what and like 
shoehorning, I think that's, you

1076
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:35,800
know, that's incredibly 
important. 

1077
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:38,680
So. 
Yeah, and I, I want to have 

1078
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:40,840
permaculture out with the core 
book. 

1079
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:45,440
So it's like I can step back 
from it understanding like I 

1080
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:51,040
made a complete experience here.
I can make more if I want, if it

1081
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:54,760
proves that like there's a want 
for it and a need for it. 

1082
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:58,200
But yeah, I'm, I'm excited to 
have it out there. 

1083
01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:02,600
I'm also making like a pamphlet 
adventure called Whale Food. 

1084
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:05,520
That is the players are 
swallowed by a whale and have to

1085
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:08,760
collect the psychedelic 
ambergris inside before they get

1086
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:11,680
out. 
And then like inspired by 

1087
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:14,880
something Adam does all the 
time, there's like an adventure 

1088
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:19,200
designer notes Zine called 
Tetrapod that will come out as 

1089
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:21,600
well with it. 
So classic. 

1090
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:25,240
One book becomes four books. 
Classic. 

1091
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:27,680
Classic what? 
What? 

1092
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:31,080
So I mean, I don't want to put 
like a, you know, like obviously

1093
01:04:31,080 --> 01:04:33,400
we're not gonna have like a hard
deadline on this, but how, how, 

1094
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:35,240
how are you feeling about how 
far along you are? 

1095
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:37,920
You know, when can we expect it?
Or should we just, you know, 

1096
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:40,040
just be patient and then you'll 
get it when you get. 

1097
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:44,680
It oh I just started a new ADHD 
medication so we're hoping a 

1098
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:49,200
lots than I thought about a 
month ago but that's on. 

1099
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:52,920
Vyvanse now or what? 
They got me on Wellbutrin. 

1100
01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:54,960
They're calling it Wellbutrin at
this point. 

1101
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:58,520
Gotcha, Wellbutrin. 
There you go. 

1102
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:03,920
But that's to say, I was so 
burned out at the end of last 

1103
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:05,120
year. 
When you're running a 

1104
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:09,040
Kickstarter and you are late, 
although you're communicating 

1105
01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:12,640
all your deadlines, it is a 
constant companion. 

1106
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:14,320
It's like a sword hanging over 
your head. 

1107
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:16,600
It's so cool. 
It's really good for you. 

1108
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:22,280
So that's to say I got super 
burned out at the end of last 

1109
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:25,280
year seven. 
I took some significant time off

1110
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:29,960
in December to like disconnect 
from games like Recharge for 

1111
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:33,120
what's going to be a rocking and
rolling 2026. 

1112
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:37,040
I think if everything goes 
amazingly, it's going to be like

1113
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:40,400
Q1Q2 this year. 
Nick. 

1114
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:43,080
Yeah. 
I mean, even the end of Qi mean 

1115
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:45,560
that's, that's not, we're almost
at the end of Q1 now. 

1116
01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:48,720
So that means not very long. 
Hey, but then you got to get it 

1117
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:50,680
all printed, then it has to get 
distributed. 

1118
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:52,960
Then you got to talk to 100 
people that don't have their 

1119
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:55,080
credit card information correct 
and all the people that change 

1120
01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:58,280
their addresses and you know all
of them. 

1121
01:05:58,280 --> 01:06:00,160
Excited. 
That's going to be great. 

1122
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:04,160
One reason I'll never run a 
fucking Kickstarter, but I I 

1123
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:06,520
love that all of you guys do and
I can back them. 

1124
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:10,760
I'm pushing towards 800 now. 
I'm getting there, Yeah. 

1125
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:15,640
But Aaron I, the Super backer of
damically uses something that 

1126
01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:17,920
has to end up on air. 
That is incredible, Aaron 

1127
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:22,000
motherfucking King. 
But, and you said, I mean, 

1128
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:24,240
that's when Plasmax is coming 
out and then you've been working

1129
01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:26,680
on your next game for years and 
years and years. 

1130
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:31,400
You have a time frame for that. 
I want to kick start it by 

1131
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:34,120
August. 
That would be sick. 

1132
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:39,360
My goal, I won't kick start it 
until it's done because I've 

1133
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:44,640
been in a cycle that like I 
think many creators can identify

1134
01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:52,680
with, which is asking money for 
something and then needing to 

1135
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:54,800
finish it after you've received 
the money for it. 

1136
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:58,000
Instead of like getting as far 
as you can and finishing 

1137
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:00,400
something and then starting this
crowdfunding process. 

1138
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:04,400
It sounds so obvious. 
Thank you everybody. 

1139
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:09,040
It sounds the solution sounds 
really easy, but when with the 

1140
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:12,200
financial realities and how 
development works and how I've 

1141
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:15,440
learned that my own development 
works, it's just not. 

1142
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:18,360
It's not sustainable for me 
anymore. 

1143
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:20,560
I can't. 
I can't be burned out this way. 

1144
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:23,160
So I'm going to do everything I 
can to finish it. 

1145
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:28,240
I've got a couple other games in
the hopper that I'm excited to 

1146
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:31,920
put out, including one I'm 
working on with Josh Hiddy 

1147
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:36,360
called Voronoi Tessellation, 
which is a megastructure 

1148
01:07:36,360 --> 01:07:41,480
exploration game inspired by 
like, exactly. 

1149
01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:48,440
Yeah, it's a blame game and 
Ghost in the Shell and other 

1150
01:07:48,440 --> 01:07:54,160
like super far futuristic 
abstract landscapes and stuff 

1151
01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:56,600
like that. 
So hoping there's some some of 

1152
01:07:56,600 --> 01:07:59,960
that this year as well. 
That's a blame is incredible, 

1153
01:07:59,960 --> 01:08:02,320
like hope you got some big 
megastructure art in there 

1154
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:04,240
because that's really, you know,
we're going to pull it in. 

1155
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:05,600
That's sick. 
We have. 

1156
01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:10,480
Some we have art from a 
speculative architect who works 

1157
01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:12,560
at Fullerton. 
Actually, Speaking of 

1158
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:16,560
California, Brian Cantley, his 
shit is so cool. 

1159
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:20,520
So. 
This is the kind of shit people 

1160
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:22,279
bring in. 
People that are outside the 

1161
01:08:22,279 --> 01:08:24,640
space that do cool stuff or 
inside the space, that's the way

1162
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:28,479
to fucking do cool shit. 
Yeah, I got to explain to him 

1163
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:32,279
over the course of like 20 
emails what RPGs even were. 

1164
01:08:32,279 --> 01:08:35,520
So that's. 
You got to take those 20 emails 

1165
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:37,720
and put it in a blog post and 
just be like, this is how I 

1166
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:39,399
taught someone, added. 
Yeah. 

1167
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:45,080
This is how Brian knows now, But
yeah, and editing wise, I'm 

1168
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:47,200
working on like some super 
exciting projects coming up, 

1169
01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:50,240
including Realis, which is going
to be so sick. 

1170
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:55,439
Very excited to get into that 
one and otherwise I'll be at PAX

1171
01:08:55,439 --> 01:09:01,200
U in November now. 
December it's only every couple 

1172
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:03,640
of years as it in November 
because of something with like 

1173
01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:05,560
booking. 
Yeah, it's like, I think it's 

1174
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:07,479
like December. 
It's like the first week of 

1175
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:09,120
December, it's like the 4th or 
something like that. 

1176
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:14,960
Which honestly, it sucked 
because of Thanksgiving and the 

1177
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:18,200
marathon, but man it was not 
nearly as fucking cold. 

1178
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:23,040
The 1-2 years ago I remembered 
why I don't fucking live in 

1179
01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:26,560
Pennsylvania anymore, but 
because I used to live outside 

1180
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:29,680
of Philadelphia and again I'm 
reminded every time I go to PAX 

1181
01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:33,160
why I don't live there anymore. 
But I just moved here this year 

1182
01:09:33,319 --> 01:09:35,840
or last year. 
Yeah, hey, it's a lot different 

1183
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:37,399
than when I was there, which is 
cool. 

1184
01:09:37,399 --> 01:09:38,399
It is cooler. 
It is. 

1185
01:09:38,399 --> 01:09:43,960
It is maybe my my I'm trying to 
be less in the past about how I 

1186
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:46,240
feel about Philadelphia, but. 
OK. 

1187
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:48,000
You live in Philadelphia now? 
Oh yeah. 

1188
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:49,960
You No, I live in Pittsburgh, 
but. 

1189
01:09:50,399 --> 01:09:52,960
Same shit. 
It's that's right, like I mean 4

1190
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:56,840
hour drive, but you know the 
other little spot of blue in 

1191
01:09:56,840 --> 01:10:00,640
pencil Tucky is it gets you 
there. 

1192
01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:02,880
It's a quick drive to Paxtel. 
That must be nice. 

1193
01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:04,680
Yeah, that was. 
I got to get there. 

1194
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:06,800
I just basically raced Tyler 
Cromer. 

1195
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:08,120
I know him. 
That's how he did it. 

1196
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:09,200
There you go. 
Yeah. 

1197
01:10:10,040 --> 01:10:14,520
And yeah, so lots of stuff in 
the works, lots of stuff coming 

1198
01:10:14,520 --> 01:10:16,040
up. 
I mean, obviously, you know, go 

1199
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:17,360
grab everything from Good Luck 
Press. 

1200
01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:20,360
And where can people find all of
these things that we've been 

1201
01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:22,120
talking about, your future 
stuff? 

1202
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:24,200
And where can people bug you 
about plasmatics? 

1203
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:30,600
Yeah, you can bug me on the 
comments of the Neopets Open 

1204
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:37,840
Public beta, but in reality I'm 
at Willy Oopst on Blue Sky. 

1205
01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:41,320
You can also find me at 
goodluckpress.co. 

1206
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:43,320
We got a mailing list link 
there. 

1207
01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:45,320
You'll hear about everything if 
you sign up there. 

1208
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:49,240
We've got some really cool stuff
planned this year for Good Luck 

1209
01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:53,800
Press, so sign the fuck up. 
OK, That's where you want to be.

1210
01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:56,720
Yeah. 
And join me on my quest to make 

1211
01:10:56,840 --> 01:10:59,960
one of every game. 
Hopefully I'll make one that you

1212
01:10:59,960 --> 01:11:01,680
wanted me to make at some point,
so. 

1213
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:03,800
Let's do it. 
Well, I mean, you already made 

1214
01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:06,640
Torque, so I'm good. 
Quick question, like quiz 

1215
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:08,080
question. 
What kind of game is this? 

1216
01:11:08,080 --> 01:11:10,560
What, what, what, what genre 
have you made this one? 

1217
01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:14,920
What are you calling that? 
Yeah, I I guess it's like an NSR

1218
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:19,440
game, but that's not enough 
really for what it is. 

1219
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:24,000
I guess it's like a mutant 
adventure game could be the 

1220
01:11:24,040 --> 01:11:26,160
closest. 
Because I was going to say, if 

1221
01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:27,920
you're going to make one over 
every game, I'd love to see the 

1222
01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:32,440
list of every game that exists 
so you can you can tell me which

1223
01:11:32,440 --> 01:11:35,560
ones. 
But but yeah, this has been Will

1224
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:36,440
Yolps. 
Thank you so much, Will. 

1225
01:11:36,440 --> 01:11:38,080
I can't believe it's been so 
long. 

1226
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:40,240
Hopefully it's not this long 
before you come on again. 

1227
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:42,560
We'd love to have you back. 
Got to play some games, got to 

1228
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:44,400
run some games, got to talk 
about more games in the future. 

1229
01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:45,800
So seriously, thank you so much 
for being here. 

1230
01:11:46,480 --> 01:11:47,840
Yeah, thank you so much for 
having me. 

1231
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:51,280
I'm so glad we got to coordinate
our outfits for the show. 

1232
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:52,440
Oh, boom. 
Look at that. 

1233
01:11:52,480 --> 01:11:55,840
Yeah, we, we talked before about
all this while we were doing the

1234
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:58,280
audio difficulties. 
But yeah, once again, thank you 

1235
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:00,200
and thank you everyone in chat 
and thank you everyone that 

1236
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:03,480
listens, you know, go back all 
of Will's stuff and we will see 

1237
01:12:03,480 --> 01:12:04,640
you all later. 
Bye.