1 00:00:15,300 --> 00:00:17,460 Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll Podcast. 2 00:00:17,460 --> 00:00:20,820 My name is Ryan and with me today we have a returning a 3 00:00:20,820 --> 00:00:22,500 wonderful guest that is Clayton Notestein. 4 00:00:22,500 --> 00:00:25,060 How you doing today Clayton? I'm doing great, thanks for 5 00:00:25,060 --> 00:00:27,940 having me on again. Yeah, absolutely. 6 00:00:27,940 --> 00:00:32,800 We, it's funny. We, we, we've, we've talked 7 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:34,560 about stuff and then we've talked about some other stuff 8 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:40,120 and then you drop this article about self promotion and we had 9 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,840 already discussed that and I had already texted you about it. 10 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:44,880 And we're like, hey, let's actually get on stream. 11 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,560 Let's follow this up and talk about self promotion. 12 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:51,760 And I'm excited to do this. I'm excited. 13 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:54,960 Yeah, no, me too. And so bad at it. 14 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:00,640 Well, First off, like, OK, I want, I want to set some, some 15 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,000 expectations for the audience here, right? 16 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:05,360 So the first one is, is that we're just going to cover like 17 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:09,400 self promotion, like how to be like a normal person in this 18 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,080 industry, in a community, things like that. 19 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,160 So we're not going to talk about how to get you like your book to 20 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:19,320 a publisher or like how to set up like a really good, like 21 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:21,840 slick through rate on like a, an ad. 22 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,440 That stuff is, you know, marketing or it's distribution 23 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,400 sales. It's super complicated. 24 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:29,720 And there's people who are frankly, I'm, I don't, I can't 25 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:31,360 speak for you, Ryan, but I'm not qualified. 26 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:33,440 Talk about it. People are just better at it. 27 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:39,520 The the second thing is that I, you know, something I really 28 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,200 care about, but it's something that I'm getting better at. 29 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,840 So like part of this, I, I'm treating this, this guest 30 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,720 starring with you and I treated that blog a little bit the same 31 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:50,520 way of like I am trying to get better at these things. 32 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,640 These are notes to myself, reminders that I can get better 33 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:55,920 at it. So this is not the be all end 34 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,280 all sort of thing. And the last one, which is a 35 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:00,600 bonus thing because I said two things. 36 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,760 This is the third thing. I know Matt Colville released a 37 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,360 video recently that's a community, which is a great 38 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,400 video, by the way. I, I actually think it's like 39 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,960 one of his best, but everyone's like, wow, Clay wrote like 40 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:13,360 another article to like go with it. 41 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,880 And I was like, no, I didn't. I, I wrote it before I'm at 42 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:18,360 Colville. If I had known he was going to 43 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,680 release a video, I would have just waited until he released it 44 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,360 and then I would have just, and then it would have been so much 45 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:27,120 easier to write then. But you know, unfortunately, no. 46 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,920 So this is another way of saying a lot of people are talking 47 00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:32,960 about this. We're not the only ones here 48 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,800 when we say hey, if we want you to be a normal, happy, organic, 49 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:40,720 real person in the world when you are showing off your stuff. 50 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:46,040 Yeah, I mean, that's exactly this is not the end all be all. 51 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:47,840 This is really just our personal experience. 52 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:49,520 You know, we are not experts in this. 53 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:54,920 And much like many of my opinions, a lot of what I have 54 00:02:54,920 --> 00:02:59,440 to say about it comes from a place of anger because I 55 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,880 generally hate getting terrible fucking emails from people 56 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,360 because I actually do feel bad when I have to either not 57 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:11,320 respond or say, hey, sorry, no. And it would you could make it a 58 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,520 lot harder for me even if you wrote better emails because it'd 59 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:15,840 be a lot harder to say no to somebody. 60 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:21,960 But I can tell you I am much more likely to to respond 61 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,600 positively to good self promotion. 62 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:26,440 And that's what we want to talk about here on the show. 63 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:31,200 It's to, like you said, a lot of it is just acting like a normal 64 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,720 human being. And I think people are so kind 65 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:39,320 of on the Internet that it's hard to remember that if you 66 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,000 walked up to a person, you would probably introduce yourself. 67 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,080 You might even ask their name or something like these are things 68 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:46,720 that we miss when we're being online. 69 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,640 So it's just a lot of simple. I'm calling it AI call it 70 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,200 LinkedIn brain. Like I think LinkedIn like that 71 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,680 culture of like people has like completely poisoned the well. 72 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,480 Like I think cause to speak to you what you experience. 73 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,960 I get occasional emails or like I'll get occasional like DMS 74 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,400 from people where I'm like, I know you like we have talked 75 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,760 about silly things. I have liked a meme that you 76 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:11,120 posted. Why are you? 77 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,600 Why did you shift gears and turn into a different person when you 78 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,200 DM me? I'm just a guy with a dog and a 79 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,519 scarf on right now. It's a lot easier. 80 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,360 So, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I don't get angry. 81 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,160 I get more like depressed by it. I'm like, oh, don't, don't do 82 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,760 this. Like just just, you know, reach 83 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:33,080 out to me the normal way because I'm one of, that's how I want to 84 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:34,840 interact with things more often than not. 85 00:04:36,280 --> 00:04:39,920 Yeah, I mean, see, my anger, my hatred, my depression are all 86 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,120 kind of just like this bar that slides back and forth between 87 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:44,240 the three. It's a gradient. 88 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:45,680 I I. Forgot to do this. 89 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,880 I was going to there's this meme online which she was like a like 90 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,440 a death metal like emo family and they're all wearing black. 91 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,360 And then they have one kid who's sitting in the family photo 92 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,280 who's wearing like a, a bright Robin's egg blue like vet 93 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:00,440 sweater vest and he's smiling year to year. 94 00:05:00,840 --> 00:05:04,120 I feel like that's me going on to the weekly scroll. 95 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,480 There you go. Yeah, I, I would, I would agree 96 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:07,080 with that. Yeah. 97 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,120 Listen, I, I'm much better than I used to be. 98 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,840 We'll say that and I'll, I'll try to keep it a little bit more 99 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:14,600 calm than when we talked about the Indies. 100 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:16,800 But, you know, I get mad because I'm passionate about this stuff. 101 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,800 That's the reason I do the show. It's the reason that we want to 102 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:21,680 support indie creators and stuff. 103 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,480 And it'd just be a lot easier if people made it easier for us to 104 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,960 support you, you know? And that's, that's, that's 105 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,320 really the core, I think of what we're talking about here is, is 106 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,600 the reason we want to do this is because we want you to succeed. 107 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:40,280 If you, you, you make stuff, we like stuff and we would like for 108 00:05:40,280 --> 00:05:43,000 people to like your stuff. And the best way to do that, 109 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,160 especially in 2025 is to promote yourself and to get yourself out 110 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,280 there. And we think the best way to do 111 00:05:50,280 --> 00:05:53,880 it is organically and humanely. And that's that's what we're 112 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,960 going to talk about now certainly. 113 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,960 A more fun way to do it, which I think is the other thing too. 114 00:05:59,960 --> 00:06:03,480 Like your, your, your body is going to thank you for taking 115 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,200 this more organic approach because it's exhausting doing 116 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,920 the. Other things it's, it's, you 117 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,320 know, it's putting on a persona you don't need to put on. 118 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,000 It's it's, I know we're role players, but you don't need to 119 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:19,000 role play this person, right? You It's, it's, it's what it's, 120 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:20,760 it's getting your phone voice, right? 121 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,000 It's when people answer the phone and suddenly they're 122 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,760 talking like this on the phone. Like it's not doing that. 123 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:28,800 Yeah, it's, but it's, it's being genuine. 124 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:30,880 Just like you can promote yourself and still be you 125 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,720 without a lot of stuff. And again, that's what we're 126 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:35,800 going to talk about today on it. But I, I think by the end, 127 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:37,280 that's, that's the core of what I want. 128 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,880 I think what I hope people get from this is mostly it's OK to 129 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:47,080 promote yourself, you know, as a, as well as your game and your 130 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,920 things and to be you while you're doing it without having 131 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,800 to try to put on like a marketing persona or something. 132 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,000 And it comes across so much more genuine. 133 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:57,360 Yeah. So yeah. 134 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,360 Yeah, the thing I said in my article, which we can link 135 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:05,320 somewhere at some point, but like, yeah, it'll be the do we 136 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,880 do thing on the bottom here or on whatever it is on your 137 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:13,200 particular screen right now. But you know, I think, you know, 138 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:17,400 people are inundated constantly now with stuff that is not made 139 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,640 by people. We don't have to get into it too 140 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:21,720 much, but you already know exactly what that is. 141 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,800 You get the robot emails, the robot phone calls, you get the 142 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:27,800 AI stuff all the time. We were not. 143 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,520 Let's avoid talking about that. But all that to say that when 144 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,640 you get something that's made by a person who just wants to make 145 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:36,640 something that they're really excited about, it makes it all 146 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:38,720 the more special. That was always true, but now 147 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,840 it's more true than ever. So this, yeah, this is going to 148 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:47,720 be very much of A podcast and a stream all about let's let's do 149 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,520 the good stuff, stick to the good stuff for and making and 150 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,720 looking at some good examples of people doing it the right way, 151 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:56,400 or at least the way that we like it. 152 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,440 The way that we like it and again and we want to say this, 153 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:01,600 we are not experts. This is not the end all be all. 154 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,080 This is our opinions. This is me doing a podcast 155 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,120 pushing 300 episodes over the last three plus years. 156 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,560 This is Clayton running an extremely successful and 157 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:14,320 fantastic blog and, and putting out a bunch of stuff and also 158 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,400 getting getting a bunch of, of, of stuff. 159 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,160 So a lot of this is just our experience that we've had over 160 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:21,680 the last couple of years kind of doing this. 161 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,200 And since we are kind of the people that some people like to 162 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,200 reach out to, maybe we can help a tiny bit. 163 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,760 So why don't we hop into it? We're, we're just going to kind 164 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:31,960 of have a dock open. We're going to like take notes 165 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:33,919 with each other as we, we talk through this. 166 00:08:33,919 --> 00:08:35,840 We're going to talk about some examples of good and bad 167 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:36,960 promotion. We're going to talk about a 168 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,919 bunch of stuff. But, but let's just, let's just 169 00:08:39,919 --> 00:08:44,680 hop over into, into that, into the screen that just says self 170 00:08:44,680 --> 00:08:48,080 promotion and, and go from there. 171 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:52,160 So why don't you kick it off? Why don't you start the first 172 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:53,920 topic, I think was was your suggestion. 173 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,440 Why don't we kick off with that? Yeah, I wanted to start off on 174 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,720 like a a parade of awesome stuff. 175 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,440 So we're going to talk about what good promotion looks like. 176 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,040 And we got some categories. It's it's not an all inclusive 177 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,160 list, but we think these are some ways that you can really 178 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,320 quote UN quote, self promote yourself in a way that other 179 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,880 people have already blazed the trail for. 180 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,800 So, you know, looking into this doc, the first one, if you could 181 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,480 write for me, Ryan, is what good promotion looks like dot dot 182 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,560 dot. And then from there, I think the 183 00:09:24,560 --> 00:09:28,840 first one that is frankly, you should, you should be doing it 184 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,960 right now, do this right now, which is participate in a 185 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:36,760 community. If you're not participating in a 186 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,120 community, it's going to be really hard to do any of the 187 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:43,800 other things that we're going to talk about today because because 188 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,440 I mean, that's participating in the community is going to be 189 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,840 the, it's going to be this thing that certifies you as not a bot, 190 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,920 as not a grifter, as somebody who might genuinely be a real 191 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:55,760 person. So you have to participate in 192 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,080 the community now. Now the question of course, is, 193 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:02,760 is like 1 where are you going to find the community and how do I 194 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,760 get into a community? And, and the answer is you, you 195 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:06,920 just got to go looking for it. You got, you got to find one 196 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,240 that like feels good to you to be in. 197 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:11,880 If you don't like being in the community, you shouldn't be in. 198 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:13,200 You don't, don't participate in it. 199 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,600 Don't make stuff for it. I hear people all the time will 200 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,400 be like, well, I can't find my computer community or like I, I 201 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,640 want to make Morkborg stuff, but I don't like the Morkborg 202 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,040 community. And it's like, then you don't 203 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:30,640 want to make Morkborg things like I and I come at this with 204 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,640 this idea that like there is a infinite number of places that 205 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,000 you can be and people that you can be with. 206 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,520 So like just because you're, you find out that, oh, I'm not a 207 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,600 brothership person, I'm not a liminal horror person, doesn't 208 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,720 mean you're not some other type of person. 209 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,560 You just got to keep looking and you might find out it's not, 210 00:10:47,560 --> 00:10:49,840 it's not linked to a specific game. 211 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,880 It might be like a design community that cares about like 212 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,680 board games or things like that, but you got to find one. 213 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,880 And then when you do find one, you want to be like one of these 214 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,240 awesome people that we're going to mention who have been proven 215 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:03,600 themselves. I feel like what? 216 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,600 We're going to do a lot is like hedge a little bit, which I 217 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,480 think is also important. I could get into a whole another 218 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:13,280 topic about authoritative speaking from non authoritative 219 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,960 position. But just because you might not 220 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:18,840 be involved in the board community or the mothership 221 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,360 community or whatever, it doesn't mean that you can't make 222 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,440 stuff for it. You obviously can, but we're 223 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,520 talking about, you know, you know, some of those people that 224 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:28,520 are like deep in like the mothership community, people 225 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:32,880 like Marco, people like, you know, meet Castle, who really 226 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,200 dug deep into that and found a lot of people that they enjoy 227 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,520 working with. If you're looking, what we're 228 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,320 talking about is not the stuff you're making the community that 229 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,800 you can find to get involved in. And and as Clayton said, it's 230 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,800 not just a game community could be design communities. 231 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:53,720 There are a million discords out there and I'm in 40 of them and 232 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:58,600 39 of them are muted. But that's another part, you 233 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,280 know, just joining a Discord is not being part of the community. 234 00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:03,440 Be active, meet people, do whatever. 235 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,440 But again, once again, hedging a little bit. 236 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:08,480 You don't have to be a part of the community. 237 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,960 You don't have to prove your mettle at all to make stuff for 238 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:12,600 it. But if you want to continue to 239 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,120 make stuff for it and and define that place. 240 00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:19,160 Yeah, if you want some place to self promote yeah And I will say 241 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,000 another thing too is like, you know, not thinking about self 242 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,320 promotion, just thinking about hey, I want to be a community is 243 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,240 some kind, some people I think maybe getting this, I get in 244 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:29,680 this thing. So I'm going to speak for 245 00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:31,600 myself. Sometimes I'm like, Oh well 246 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,560 that's not really a community that's I I want to be in like 247 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:36,880 something official and it's like actually there's a bunch of 248 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,200 really great designers out there who like their community is just 249 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,240 their play group that they play with in real life. 250 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,240 It's like 5 people and they make awesome stuff. 251 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:50,720 Like I, I think a lot about how like like Chris McDowell has a 252 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,400 small group of people that he probably plays with and that, 253 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,960 and those people have a stronger influence and pull on his work 254 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,760 than any other. Like quote UN quote like 255 00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:03,640 discord, like official community or like design community or like 256 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,520 website or whatever, right? And that was also a thing way 257 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,240 back in the past, like back in the Forge era, there's a bunch 258 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,600 of people were like their design community was like the three 259 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:14,760 people that were happened to be in the same city as them. 260 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,360 So your community can be anything but like that. 261 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:23,080 The reason why I wrap it into like self promotion is because 262 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,600 you know, when you eventually make a thing and you're going to 263 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,560 share it out, who are you going to share it to 1st is the first 264 00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:30,960 question you should be having. And it wouldn't be nice to be 265 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,080 able to share with your friends or people you like who also like 266 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,240 you first and then they're going to, and then they can share it 267 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:38,960 for you. You know, they're going to give 268 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,680 it out to other people. Like the goal should be that 269 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,400 you're, you know, you're not going to interact directly with 270 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,800 every single person who's going to touch your work, but they are 271 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,040 going, there's going to be some sort of network of connection, 272 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:53,760 some sort of a degree of separation. 273 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,520 And if you have a strong community, that degree of it's 274 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,440 going to be wider. It's going to be, it's going to 275 00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:03,120 branch out a lot more and it's going to be a lot stronger. 276 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,640 And it's going to also be, you know, it's going to feel good. 277 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,400 You know, like the the people, the community is what's going to 278 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:11,280 keep you going. You know, the people who like 279 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,080 hype you up or they're like when you get angry and you say 280 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:15,880 something you don't like or whatever and then they're like, 281 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:17,920 yeah, I agree with you. Makes you feel like you're not 282 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,800 losing your damn mind. All that stuff is good. 283 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,720 So yeah, good, good, good. Note on the self hedging thing. 284 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,600 I think we should talk about the first example of someone, and 285 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:29,920 these are just to give you examples. 286 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:32,240 We want to talk about Matthew Morris, right? 287 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,160 Like I'll. Talk about Morris. 288 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,920 Yeah, and I call him Matthew because I I've only known him 289 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:41,960 online as Man of Man of Dawn Ramp, but. 290 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,760 Man of ramp, Matt, Man of Dawn. Yeah, man of Dawn. 291 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,160 That's the whole thing. Yeah, sorry, Morris, Mr. Morris, 292 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,440 but yeah, no. So if you somehow have not 293 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:56,800 listened to any of the episodes where he's been on the weekly 294 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,000 scroll, he's big in the mouse Raider community. 295 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,400 I, I would say in many ways that he's like one of the reasons why 296 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,040 the mouse Raider community is the way that it is. 297 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,600 He found it, he was really interested into it and he just 298 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,440 started making stuff in it and he filled a, a, a niche. 299 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,320 And honestly you look at the lot like the Mouse Raider library, 300 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,880 there's probably like a single maybe even double digit 301 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:25,080 percentage of the things for Mouse Raider are made by him or 302 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,480 like were partly spawned because of him. 303 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,920 I mean, you know, look at look at two more 1000 Doors, which 304 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,120 was a project that was made a while ago but got shipped out 305 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:39,320 recently. It literally was a game jam for 306 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:44,120 creators that he ended up taking all of the work on to, to turn 307 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,240 it into a book, publish it, make it out, and then share all that 308 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,040 with the other creators. And then look what's going on 309 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,440 right now with Rolling Coaster. The project he's doing now is 310 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,800 Mouse Rider, so bringing that back to self promotion. 311 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,360 He started out as loving a game, making a bunch of stuff for it, 312 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,480 and now he has one of the highest funding projects in 313 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:08,200 mouse rotor month on backer kit is buddies with, you know, Isaac 314 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,760 and and Andre, the people that are like running all of that 315 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,600 stuff is creating stuff for the community that he is now a big 316 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,760 part of it. And that all started with 317 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,080 joining a community, being part of the community, being a good 318 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,120 community member, making stuff for it, leading it into all the 319 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:23,200 way now. So if you want to talk about 320 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,640 going from self promotion to success just in mouse rider, 321 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,080 because he's done there with other communities too. 322 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,480 I mean, I think between him and Jon Davis, they single handedly 323 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:32,960 made bastards blow up, you know, when that was going on. 324 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,040 But talking about going from self promotion to to success, 325 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:39,960 this is exactly what we're talking about. 326 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,480 He found something he liked, started a bunch of stuff, joined 327 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,880 the community and is now, like you just said, one of the like 328 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,080 the mouse rider guy, you know, outside of of of you know the 329 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:52,680 Isaac. I got, I got a personal anecdote 330 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,400 about him. So I, I swear to God, this is 331 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,200 real. Once a month he messages me 332 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,080 directly saying, Hey, when are you going to make your next? 333 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:02,480 When are you going to make the mouse rider thing? 334 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,040 You, you have a mouse rider thing and you make it. 335 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,720 And he'll do that like it's, I think he might have a Google 336 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:11,079 sheet. I don't know what's going on, 337 00:17:11,079 --> 00:17:13,440 but he, he reaches out to me every single month. 338 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,000 So, you know, like his participation isn't just like, 339 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,200 hey, look at my thing. He's always constantly being 340 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:19,960 like, hey, I know you got an awesome thing. 341 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,280 Come, come make something for this with me. 342 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:23,920 You know, he's always doing that. 343 00:17:24,319 --> 00:17:27,560 And, and here's the thing. This is why it kind of factors 344 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:31,520 in a self promotion every time he reaches out to me and makes 345 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,800 me feel good, like I feel, you know, I feel desired, like, Oh 346 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,440 yeah, I should make something for mouse rated is the one 347 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,720 person who really believes me and he's the mouse rater guy. 348 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,840 I immediately I'm like, what is what is he up to right now? 349 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:45,120 And I have to go look at his work. 350 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,800 So there is like that self promotion and it's normal. 351 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:52,200 It's it's a natural thing like someone is kind generous with 352 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,160 their time and then you want to immediately like reciprocate by 353 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,440 making sure that you're doing the same thing for them, at 354 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,120 least the good people, which again is I know only the people 355 00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:02,320 you want to interact with, right. 356 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:04,360 So. Yeah. 357 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,000 And yeah. What's funny is it's, I mean, I 358 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,400 don't want you to feel less special, but that's not. 359 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,240 I know I I. Bet he doesn't do a bunch of 360 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,120 people. No, when when he was on the show 361 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:16,080 last week. Go check out our last episode 362 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,120 290 Rolling Coast talking all about Master Dermont and Rolling 363 00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:21,880 Coast. He was talking about the name of 364 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:23,720 the person who made the project is escaping me. 365 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,920 But Ren RIN, it's like a medieval mouse truck approach 366 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:28,360 said he did the same thing for them. 367 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:32,480 And then even on our discord and on blue sky you can see John 368 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:33,760 Davis vivid sanctum. Great stuff. 369 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,840 Go check them out. Was talking about wanting to do 370 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,240 some stuff for a mouse runner mega dungeon. 371 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,960 And the next message in there is Matt going, Hey, you can 372 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:44,280 absolutely do this. You should do it. 373 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,160 I'm running the jam, like make it for the jam. 374 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,160 And then like the next day on blue sky you see John Davis 375 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,560 being like, I'm going to try to get this thing made for the jam. 376 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:53,840 And it's like, that's exactly that's it. 377 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:55,600 I mean, that's that's but that's match to it. 378 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,360 He's. One of like he's a living energy 379 00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:02,080 drink, like he's just walking. It's nuts. 380 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:07,000 The guy has more energy in his greeting than I do in my entire 381 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,400 fucking day and I wish I could bottle it a little bit, you 382 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:10,960 know? Yeah, yeah, it's great. 383 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,960 But that's an example of someone who like is participating in a 384 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,920 community and like, I mean, that is an extreme example. 385 00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:22,400 I think if you do like, if you, if you have a half the energy or 386 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,040 even a fraction of energy, you're, you're going to get 387 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,520 something back from it. And it's probably not a bad way 388 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,880 to be happy, but. We got another but but again, 389 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,280 that's, that's, that's not just participating community. 390 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,200 Look at the success he's getting out because of that 391 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,880 participation. So yeah, the next one we want to 392 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,440 talk about. I will probably end up being a a 393 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,240 longer episode in the future, but the Luminal Horror crew. 394 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:53,920 Yeah, tell us about him. Yeah. 395 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,000 So I reached out to Josh about this because Josh is on the show 396 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,280 a bunch. He's he's one of the members of 397 00:19:58,280 --> 00:19:59,640 the show. When we were doing a lot more 398 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,680 APS, he was our go to GM for Sidequest. 399 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,760 So Josh Domansky with Goblin archives of their Luminal 400 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:07,360 Horror. They do. 401 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,800 Again, this is kind of leaning a little bit more marketing than 402 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,600 self promotion, but obviously at one point it's it started out as 403 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,480 that. But I talked to them a lot about 404 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,840 building a community and the things that they do to encourage 405 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,640 stuff within their own community, which includes grants 406 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:27,040 and elemental horror fund and and all sorts of stuff like a 407 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:28,920 free PDF, which we'll get to here soon. 408 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:36,680 But but in talking with Josh, I think after we'd made this 409 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,440 thing, I think I decided that maybe we should do more of like 410 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,120 let's have an episode in the future about marketing and 411 00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:44,760 building community and and that's what we'll talk about a 412 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,120 little bit more. But liberal horror actually 413 00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:49,840 started out, or at least Josh getting in because Goblin 414 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,920 Archives are out liberal horror. And then Josh immediately was 415 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,400 like, holy shit, this is great and started making stuff for it 416 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,880 and then linked up with Goblin Archives and is now he's not 417 00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:06,480 living a horror with Galvin Archives because he was making 418 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,560 stuff for a game again, participating in community, but 419 00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:12,800 yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's a good way 420 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:18,480 to like if you want to build AI, hesitate to say career, but if 421 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,000 you want to build like a relationship within the space as 422 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,960 a person who makes things, the one of the best ways you can do 423 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:28,760 it is by making something for someone else who's already semi 424 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,400 established. I think that's like a 425 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,240 commonality among these. And it you can it can be a 426 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,280 concerted effort on your part because what you're doing 427 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,640 essentially, and I'm going to use some marketing terms or some 428 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,480 branding terms as it's it's called borrowed interest. 429 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,480 Like they have a lot of attention, they have a lot of 430 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,560 community, a lot of followers. You have none. 431 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:49,720 People have no reason to follow you. 432 00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:53,480 But if you are making something, you're tapping into that 433 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,760 audience and you are, you know, becoming part of it while also 434 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,800 getting people onto your side. And then you can move on and 435 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,040 some of those people follow you. Or if you go on to another 436 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,520 thing. So yeah, participating in 437 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,040 community Huge. And then I think we'll discuss 438 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,880 creating community and and stuff in in a in a future episode. 439 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:13,000 I think that would be good to have. 440 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:22,520 But I think our last one here, much like Matt, Matt Morris, 441 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:30,640 Choclipse, Brandon, holy shit, I don't know much like Matt, how 442 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,720 he has as much energy as he has to do all the things that he 443 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:35,320 does. Not only is he does he do 444 00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:37,880 everything? I've he's like first of all, an 445 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,280 incredible artist, does game design stuff as well. 446 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:45,240 But like I've randomly seen him be like, hey, I created like I 447 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:51,520 believe it was like a horror sci-fi sound board thing where 448 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,040 there's like a gradient on the screen and as you drag your 449 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,120 mouse, it'll change the intensity of the thing. 450 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:01,160 I'm like, so he codes to mini painting all sorts of stuff. 451 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,400 Then not every time I jump into a new discord, I'm not kidding 452 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,760 what I say. It's probably going to see 453 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:08,960 Brandon in there. I mean, he's bouncing all over 454 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,160 like the Hivegum discord. He's bouncing all over the 455 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,120 Tanner Simpson like Simpson miniatures discord. 456 00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:17,160 He's in our discord, he's posting all over blue sky every 457 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,720 other day. He's writing like a new a new 458 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:27,440 post or about a new game that he was jumping into or new art that 459 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,400 he made for a game. Like, hey, I love this game, I 460 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,080 made art for it. Hey, this is really great. 461 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:35,080 I mean, standy's for this. The amount of participation he 462 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,640 has in so many different communities is insane. 463 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,360 And I can say that whenever Brandon does drop something, I 464 00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:44,360 will get it in a fucking heartbeat because I think he's 465 00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:46,840 incredible and I think his he is contagious. 466 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,600 And the energy that he has for games and seeing the amount of 467 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,160 effort that he puts in stuff reminds me to be like, fuck, I 468 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:53,360 do need to go paint that miniature. 469 00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:54,960 I actually do need to go do that thing. 470 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,200 He's like the ideal community member. 471 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,200 Yeah, you know, this is reminding me of another person 472 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,560 too, because who's also an Rs Hodag. 473 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,920 They they do this did this thing on one of the discords I was on 474 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,400 where they're like, hey, is anyone, anyone who wants send me 475 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,920 a picture of yourself? I'm making a bunch of like 476 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,640 mothership like scavenger freaks. 477 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,640 And I'm just going to. And a bunch of people said yes. 478 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,960 And he just started like he just like prolifically just started 479 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,360 drawing these like versions of everybody. 480 00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:29,120 And it was it was awesome. It was really fun. 481 00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:33,200 And again, like, I guess there is a commonality here of like 482 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,800 make stuff, right, which is going to, you're going to see 483 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,080 that across the board. So it's not even like a single 484 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:43,920 item, but it's like making stuff for people directly. 485 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,600 Like there's actually no scope too small when you're first 486 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,560 starting out for self promotion. Like if you're just making 487 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,360 something for one person, that actually does have an impact. 488 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,640 And so yeah, no, I mean, like, they're all these people there. 489 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,560 They started off by like being very personal and like starting 490 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,640 small and working their way up and being intimate 1 to 1. 491 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:11,160 And, and exactly like it says, participating in who community 492 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,760 is, is a part of it. And again, every single one of 493 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,080 these people, everything that's going on with them, I, I know 494 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,920 them and we'll get their stuff because I've seen their 495 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,080 participation in those communities, you know, and 496 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:24,760 that's what we're talking about self promotion. 497 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,080 So. All right. 498 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,240 The the next section, I think we can move on to the next section, 499 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:31,040 yes. Yeah. 500 00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:36,960 And I'm, I, we will label this very generally as being generous 501 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:42,120 with colleagues and others. And the first person that comes 502 00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:46,040 to mind when I when I we were talking about this off air is I 503 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,640 think of JP Colbert. I met him for the first time at 504 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:51,080 Gen. Con. 505 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:52,480 I met you for the first time at Gen. 506 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,040 Con. And you know, I had, I had, I 507 00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,640 had been a fan of his work and find out that he was, he had 508 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,840 seen some of my stuff. So that was already very nice. 509 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:04,280 And he's like, hey, do you want something? 510 00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:06,680 And I was like, yeah, what do you mean? 511 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,120 He's like, do you want free book? 512 00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:10,280 And I was like, yeah, I'll take a free book. 513 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:11,440 I'm always going to take a free book. 514 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,680 And he just handed it out. And 1st off, he puts he puts his 515 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,200 rucksack down and it's like the concrete floor of Gen. 516 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,400 Con heaved under the weight. And then he opened it up and it 517 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,880 was stuffed with his books. Like he must have brought like 518 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,640 an entire like box worth of it. Guy got the guy has strong legs. 519 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,200 And he gave me a copy. And I think one of the things 520 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,640 that people you know, so there is an argument that can be made 521 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,120 on social, it's like, hey, don't undervalue yourself. 522 00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:44,240 Don't don't just give up all of yourself away. 523 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,400 You are worth something. You know, your work is worth 524 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,760 something. But I think there's a little 525 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,840 asterisk there that says like, but your but the friend discount 526 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,280 still exists. Like you, you should be liberal 527 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,240 with the friend discount or the colleague discount. 528 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:01,280 Like if you have something that's free to give away, be be 529 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,160 like JP and be like, Hey, do you want this thing? 530 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,720 Because there's one, there's a chance that that person might 531 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,960 take it and then become like an advocate for you. 532 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,960 They might make something for it, they might review it, they 533 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,880 might do an actual play of it. You have no idea what they're 534 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,200 going to do with it. So there's no reason not to just 535 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,400 give it to them because even if they don't, they're going to 536 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,080 probably, you know, be have a pleasant relationship and now 537 00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:24,960 you have that pre-existing thing going on. 538 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:27,200 So either way, it's a net positive. 539 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,360 It's it and this is a funny topic and this is another way 540 00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:33,520 that I will say again, we are not experts on this. 541 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,400 I definitely am not an expert on this. 542 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,400 This, that exact thing that you're talking about now is 543 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,840 something that I wrestled with for years because we did not 544 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:46,880 accept review copies here on the show or any, anything free from 545 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:51,280 anybody until literally like 3 months ago. 546 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,000 So for like most of three years. And a big part of that was 547 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,600 because if I like your stuff, like most of the time I already 548 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,240 have it if it exists, right? Because I I have a problem with 549 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,320 buying RPGs and things. I see you are getting smaller by 550 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,040 the moment as you say this, surrounded by all your books. 551 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,880 Oh and this is I mean trust me when I say it goes off screen. 552 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,440 No, I imagine you got Raiders of the Lost Ark style warehouse 553 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,120 behind you full of RPG books. You should see what my closet 554 00:28:20,120 --> 00:28:21,880 looks like. It's crazy but terrified. 555 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:27,600 But the my point is that we did not accept stuff for multiple 556 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,040 reasons. And I feel like they made sense 557 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,400 to me at the time, but in retrospect, for these exact 558 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,160 reason that we're talking about, it makes less sense. 559 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,640 But it's if I support you, that means I want to support you 560 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,280 financially as well. And if you have something you 561 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,000 want to give me and something I'm interested in, I would like 562 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,080 to just buy it from you so I can support you. 563 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,760 But what I realized eventually later through conversations and 564 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,200 then just in general, especially when I started thinking about 565 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,200 making something, I wanted to give it to somebody. 566 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,800 And they did the same thing to me that I had done to so many 567 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,440 people like, oh, let me just pay for whatever. 568 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,720 I was like, no, just take it. And then in my head I went, oh, 569 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,800 shit, that's what so many people just wanted to do. 570 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:08,600 They just wanted to give away something because they like you 571 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,480 or like your work and think you're cool and want to pass 572 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,160 that on. And especially, you know, being 573 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,440 a podcast and things. So that's something that I 574 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,320 wrestled with for a long time of being like, I want to support 575 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,320 you. But as you said, that friend 576 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,320 discount, that advocacy part, that other part of it is a part 577 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,800 that kind of eluded me for a long time. 578 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,800 And that's why we started to accept review copies and stuff 579 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,440 because I can just secretly throw money at their itch later 580 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:39,520 if I really want to. But that self promotion of 581 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,680 building those relationships and friends and things, because I 582 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,000 can say there's people that I did not build a relationship 583 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:46,640 with because I didn't accept their free thing. 584 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,280 And that was just human nature that I was just obtuse to for a 585 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,440 while and being like, no, I don't want your free thing. 586 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,000 I'll pay you. Kind of when someone did it to 587 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:58,640 me, I was like, Oh, that doesn't feel super great. 588 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,160 So we, because it's just like, I'm excited. 589 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,880 I want to give it to you. So, so we, that's why we started 590 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,960 accepting review copies on the show for that specific reason 591 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:09,720 you're talking about with JB Colbert is building those 592 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,480 relationships. It's allowing people to be 593 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:18,000 excited to give you a thing and you not looking a gift horse in 594 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,720 the mouth. So that that that is the thing 595 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,760 that I have worked on specifically because of this, 596 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:25,360 yeah. I'm, I'm trying to get better at 597 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,600 this myself to being the giver because, you know, I do have 598 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,400 some things to give away. I, I'm making an adventure or I 599 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,760 made one and I'm like revising and making it good. 600 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,880 It was bad prior to that. So I'm trying to hand it out to 601 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:39,920 people. And I think one of the other 602 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,200 things, I won't put an asterisk on this or a caveat is like when 603 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:47,160 you give the thing away, be gracious and whatever it is you 604 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,200 get that comes back to you. Like I, I think some people, you 605 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:51,640 know, they give something away and they're like, well, I'm 606 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,560 going to get like a really positive like review from 607 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:56,680 people. And it's like, no, that's not 608 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,240 the point. Like the point is to give them 609 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,440 the thing and whatever happens, happens. 610 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,640 Like it, it's an excuse to, you know, create a connection. 611 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,160 So like I, I have already given out the adventure, the original 612 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,720 1 to people. And I'd be like, hey, like I 613 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,520 gave one to, you know, the runners of the jam. 614 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,080 I gave it out to some friends who helped me edit and read it 615 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,040 and everything else. And I'm like, hey, if tell me if 616 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,480 this is good or not, like give me any notes. 617 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,200 I don't care. It can be a complete like 618 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:28,160 destroy, destroy my work. I just want you to have it 619 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,600 because I appreciate you taking the time, you know, to like make 620 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,280 this thing for me. So I made something else. 621 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,080 I want you to have it. And I think if someone, and I'm 622 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,520 saying this partly because I'm like, hey, if any of you end up 623 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,480 giving Ryan something, you should give him the same same 624 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,440 freedom to be like you can review this negatively if you 625 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,040 want because it's actually beneficial. 626 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,840 Like you get a negative review is helpful as a creator. 627 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,240 I mean, that's one thing that we hear about on the show a lot is, 628 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,440 is exactly that, that like actually hear a lot of people's 629 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,240 friends are very nice about their work. 630 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,480 And they don't always get like, it's just like, OK, can you say 631 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,080 something bad about they're like, no, it's super great. 632 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:12,040 No, it's great. But God, my brain sidetracked 633 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,000 itself in the sidetrack of what I was going to say, and I 634 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,040 completely lost my train of thought there. 635 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,760 Should I go to the next person? Yeah, I'll come back to what I 636 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,520 was going to. Say all right, so because this 637 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,240 is actually a pretty good segue. One of the people I gave my 638 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,400 adventure to was yo-yo high gal who made Karen to E and the 639 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,120 reason why I gave it to him is 1 because he made the game that I 640 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,240 made the adventure for. So like it's just a natural like 641 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,680 sort of relationship thing like you made something I like so 642 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,040 much that inspired me to make something else right. 643 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,240 So that again, a common example, being generous a little bit, but 644 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:51,160 it really was because he was generous when he made Karen Tui. 645 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:52,880 He makes so many things available. 646 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,280 He doesn't just have the SRD. He had basically you can buy 647 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,320 almost all the books at cost through him. 648 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,480 You can get the there's free versions of it. 649 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,840 You can even get the working files of all of his stuff. 650 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,880 So like he's being generous in a way where he's just giving tools 651 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,480 to everybody. There's no sort of like 652 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,960 protecting the trade secrets thing because let's be honest, 653 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,600 if you're making a Zine, there are no trade secrets that can't 654 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,040 readily be stolen, quote UN quote, you know, right off the 655 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:25,280 page, right? It's the writing. 656 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:26,840 Everything else, it's probably valuable anyway. 657 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,080 The layout is never interesting as far as something that could 658 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,000 be quote UN quote, stolen got bad news. 659 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,760 Some monks already made that layout hundreds of years ago. 660 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,160 So anyway, all that to say that he's another example of somebody 661 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,880 who, you know, has been very generous to other people. 662 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,120 Every time somebody makes something for his game, he 663 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,200 shares it online, he talks about it online. 664 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,400 Every time somebody joins community, gives them things to 665 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,640 make things. You know, this sort of self 666 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,000 promotion of like, let's just make it really easy for other 667 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,000 people to get on their feet and started on something kind of 668 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,240 similar to the how Matthew Morris will pump you up every 669 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,480 once a month just to just because he can. 670 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,600 Yohai will give you all the tools to be like go do the 671 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:18,000 thing. Yeah, I mean, and this is where 672 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,520 we're going to have a little bit of a blur between self promotion 673 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:26,920 and marketing, right? Because, you know, you're Yohai, 674 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:31,320 not just Karen 2 E Karen 1 E 2. And if you listen to one of the 675 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,719 episodes I believe they did with The Lost Bay, not only does he 676 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,679 give stuff away digitally, not only does it do at cost things 677 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:41,679 for everything, right? He literally runs around to 678 00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:44,639 every of those Little Free Library things that he can find. 679 00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:47,840 Oh he dumb stuff books in them. Not just books, like dice and 680 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,120 pencils and everything. It just gives away like 681 00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:53,360 everything he's ever done, obviously free or at cost, 682 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:54,719 right? And then what? 683 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,440 And that and that kind of promotion is incredible because 684 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,000 what did Karen Tui's Kickstarter pull? 685 00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:03,360 I think it was close to a quarter, $1,000,000. 686 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,320 It was like 200 and it was almost $250,000. 687 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,120 Really. Karen Tui. 688 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,240 I mean, I'm I'm pretty sure I'll. 689 00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:13,720 I'll do it. I'll be the guy in the chair for 690 00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:15,360 this one. You're gonna you're gonna be the 691 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:16,920 hunter for me. Yeah. 692 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,680 But that is to say that everything that's ever been made 693 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,760 for it, they give away for free. And you want to talk about 694 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,800 promotion? We've already said being 695 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,800 generous, giving things away for free will make people like your 696 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,080 thing. Thank you. 697 00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:36,000 You're Dang near correct. It was $226,000. 2/26 2:26 So 698 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,440 yes, that's. That's push for some, yeah. 699 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,920 For a free game that the he said from the beginning that as soon 700 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,280 as the Kickstarter funded all of the files would be free either 701 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,920 on the website or through Lulu. I know they put a lot of Lulu at 702 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,960 cost printing stuff up and the SRD has been a free website 703 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,200 forever like everything they've done has been free. 704 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,680 So and when we talk about that, you know, let me let me copy 705 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,520 paste some other stuff here. Again, this is promotion moving 706 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:09,320 into. Marketing, community building, 707 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,280 product design, all that good stuff. 708 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,240 Exactly. So not only part of like being 709 00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:17,880 part of a community, but building community and promoting 710 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,200 a community. When you look at some of the top 711 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,880 games that people that have massive communities that people 712 00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:32,440 have, my brain is breaking that people hack for the people, 713 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,840 right? Adventures for almost all of 714 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,840 them have free core rules. You can get Mouse Rider 715 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:39,560 completely free. You can go to the website. 716 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,200 Not only is there stuff free, they have so many resources. 717 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,280 Mouse Rider Library. They have that program that lets 718 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:46,960 you build Mouse Rider tokens and stuff. 719 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,280 But Mouse Rider completely free. Mark Borg Bare Bones Edition, 720 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,600 completely free and Mouse Rider has a community with the Mouse 721 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,000 Rider library and everything that goes with it. 722 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,080 Mark Borg when they first started they had the Merk Borg 723 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,280 the name is escaping me, but like the Ferritori Zine was 724 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,080 family Yeah, yeah, yeah, they had the Merc boy they. 725 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,840 Had the coins. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they had. 726 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,680 So where they were actually taking adventures and stuff like 727 00:37:15,720 --> 00:37:21,040 Carl Druid who wrote who later wrote no. 728 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,600 Not frontier scum. Frontier scum. 729 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,560 That's it. Frontier Scum wrote an adventure 730 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:31,000 for the Merkborg cult, had Johann took it, did art for it, 731 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,800 him and Paley edited it and they put it out on the website. 732 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,320 That's building community that is starting from community to 733 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,120 promotion because now look at Frontier Scum. 734 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:40,920 So Merkborg does that mothership. 735 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,440 We all know the mothership community that that they built. 736 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,920 But what you're saying with Yohai mothership also does too. 737 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,320 Pretty much anything that people put out for mothership. 738 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:52,760 Tuesday night games, is it Tuesday or Thursday? 739 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:57,760 I always get it wrong. Tuesday buys bulk of and sells 740 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:02,320 on their website, which just again further promotes their own 741 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,320 core book. Because you need the core book 742 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,320 to play the game right and. I think an important thing to 743 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,600 mention is that like this is not like they got huge and then they 744 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,200 started doing this. They started doing that before 745 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,640 their community really existed. In some cases, like I remember 746 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:25,720 Sean of Mothership had printed out the first versions of 747 00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:30,080 Mothership and like stapled them and brought them to conventions 748 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:34,320 and handed them out to people and then had made a lot of tools 749 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,640 available. And like the, the Mark Borg cult 750 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,440 was like up the moment they launched their website and they 751 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,080 had to take it down because they didn't expect to have a 752 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,160 community that would give them like 2000 submissions. 753 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,640 So they they are like, oh, sorry, we did not realize that 754 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,160 we were going to be popular. This is supposed to be like a 755 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,560 small little, you know, passion project of ours. 756 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,120 So, you know, it's yeah, I think that's just important to know, 757 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,080 right? They they started out with being 758 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,520 generous. It wasn't like they got generous 759 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,200 after the fact, after they made bank. 760 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,520 Yeah, I mean, I will say that they the bare bones edition did 761 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,440 come out after they made bank, but the bare bones edition is 762 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:12,840 still free. Yeah. 763 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:18,160 Cloud Empress, same thing with what you can get the core rules 764 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,120 and I believe the the bean barge, like the first adventure 765 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,000 for free on their website. And what also does grants and 766 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:26,960 things for writers, Liminal horror. 767 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:28,880 We already talked about it. I'll probably get Josh to come 768 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:30,600 on and talk a little bit more about the way that they build 769 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:32,240 their community. But the liminal horror core 770 00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:35,480 rules completely free. Always have been, always will be 771 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,640 and they also with part with their community, have the 772 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,280 liminal horror creator funds. They run jams, they do all sorts 773 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:46,040 of stuff that's giving away free core material and then getting 774 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,040 the return on that through building of community and 775 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,040 Blackfish publishing. I don't have the little oom lot 776 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,000 over the A here but they did here's of Cerulea, they did 777 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:58,200 Knights Forlorn and they've said from day one every PDF of their 778 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,560 games will always be free and always has been free. 779 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,880 And then I believe you Tell me if I'm mistaken, didn't you 780 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,440 highlight Heroes of Cerealia for the for the innies? 781 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,120 I did, yeah. For the innies, yeah. 782 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:11,280 I thought. I thought it ruled. 783 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,240 It was. Awesome, it rules. 784 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,640 I got the the freaking gold version back here. 785 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:16,400 Everything is. Fantastic. 786 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:23,400 I'm so I'm so frustrated. I mean, OK, it it makes sense 787 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,360 that they submitted the version that they did. 788 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,600 It's the standard edition. Don't send the deluxe expensive 789 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:32,280 edition to the innies judges. However, in this particular 790 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,280 instance, the gold 1 is gorgeous. 791 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:40,040 I wanted that one so much more. When I when I opened up the box 792 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,800 that I saw it, I was like oh man damn. 793 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,800 Because some people use it in the digital edition when when 794 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,800 you're a judge, but not but not this time. 795 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,480 Let's but yeah, so being generous with colleagues and 796 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,400 others, again, this is a little bit of marketing, but marketing 797 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,120 and self promotion too. Giving your shit away for free. 798 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,440 I can tell you right now, I can't tell you the exact 799 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,120 numbers, but I have put, I put stuff up on dry like DMS Guild 800 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:12,240 forever ago when I gave a fuck about 5 E right. 801 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,360 And I can tell you the number of downloads you get when something 802 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:20,240 is $0.00 versus even $0.99 is insane. 803 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,960 Even even asking someone to pay $0.99, which yes your game is 804 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,440 worth it, but you need to get in your head, is it? 805 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,560 Are you trying to make $20 now? Are you trying to build a 806 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,160 community for the future, for the health of your game using 807 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,720 someone like Yohai as an example giving away his game forever? 808 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,520 We first of all Liminal Horror is a freaking Karen hack. 809 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,480 This is the like he is the grandfather of another 810 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,400 community, you know, which is all into the odd but giving 811 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:49,280 away. Great, great. 812 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,160 Grandfather excited. Yeah, getting people excited 813 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:56,840 about it is a great way to promote because biting the 814 00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,080 bullet, especially for PDFs to give away. 815 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,960 If that person then buys an adventure for it, you just made 816 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:04,120 money. If that person writes an 817 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,520 adventure for it, they gets people to buy the original game. 818 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,280 That's money that you're making. So if the, if the goal is 819 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,280 eventually to make a bunch of money, I can tell you right now, 820 00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:16,200 selling one copy versus giving way 5, giving way 5 and using 821 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,440 that to start building the community is going to get you 822 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,200 much more down the load down the road than it is to, you know, 823 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,280 ask for $50.00 for your 20 page PDF right now. 824 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,000 It's, it's crazy. And that's a lot of the 825 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:29,520 difference between and this is not a conversation. 826 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,880 I'm going to advice from creators versus advice from 827 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:33,760 publishers because I can tell you some advice from publishers 828 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,320 out there about how much price things will be very different 829 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:38,800 considering they're taking a cut of it. 830 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:41,640 Yeah. And you know it there will come 831 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,320 a point when you do need to go and be pricing your things 832 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,080 competitively. Having a price tag on things 833 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:51,600 gives it a certain immediate value that making something free 834 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,040 does it. But again, we're, we're 835 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:57,640 suggesting that you be more tactical about it, you know, 836 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,800 like, and also recognize that there are times when you should 837 00:43:01,240 --> 00:43:08,160 be business you and then promotion community focused you. 838 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,280 And honestly, I think most people should probably start 839 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,200 with a community focused view, even if like you make something 840 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:18,080 and maybe it is available for sale for a little bit, but a lot 841 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,760 of things lay fallow after like a year and there's like you 842 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,080 might get a sale once like every two months. 843 00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:25,760 Maybe that's the thing you that you didn't turn around and 844 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:27,720 you're like, you know what, I can, I can give this away. 845 00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:29,920 If he still believed in it, you still like it. 846 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:31,760 That's when you can make that shift. 847 00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:34,440 So this is not something we're going to get deep into the 848 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:36,400 conversation for, but I can tell you right now with something 849 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,360 like I'm in a horror, especially again after talking to Josh. 850 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:40,680 I mean, let's not even talk about that. 851 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:42,160 Let's talk about the five e-business model. 852 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,480 The core book is 50 bucks, but I can tell you right now, every 853 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,760 adventure that they write, every single thing that they put out 854 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,080 directs you back to the core book, right? 855 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:54,400 That's the entire business model. 856 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,680 So when you can give away your core book for free and then have 857 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:04,320 adventures that people can buy, like they can be excited to play 858 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,640 the thing and then buy the rest of the stuff for it. 859 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,560 If you're only ever going to make the game and never anything 860 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,080 else again, sure, put a price on it. 861 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:11,880 But if you're going to make the game and support it with a lot 862 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:17,640 of content, with a lot of stuff, consider, again, like we said, 863 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,040 being generous with with your core material. 864 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:26,560 All right, so what's next? The next one, talk about and 865 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,440 promote other people's stuff. This is kind of already been 866 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,600 implied like a bunch. Every single person that we've 867 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,600 mentioned and every single group on this list has done this 868 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:37,040 already. But we're going to give you some 869 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:40,600 examples of people who have made it their business to just talk 870 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,120 about other people. The first one being Thomas 871 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:48,160 Manuel, who has a newsletter called the the Indie RPG 872 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,720 Newsletter. It's an awesome newsletter if 873 00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:54,200 you if you're a fan of like the story game indie space. 874 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,880 It's one of those curation newsletters where it just he 875 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,360 write. He he's a prolific reader in the 876 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,080 community. He follows a bunch of people and 877 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,760 when he sees something that really excites him, he writes a 878 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,440 little summary about it and shares it with other people. 879 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,680 And I think that's like one of those things where like again, 880 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,760 it's, it's an, it's every time you do that, you are creating a 881 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,640 small relationship with someone. I can speak from this from 882 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:20,720 experience because I have a newsletter that's all about 883 00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:24,480 design and I do the same thing. And it gives me excuse to then 884 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:28,360 talk to other people whenever I, you know, I might share 885 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,680 something of theirs online and they'll be like, hey, thanks for 886 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:33,040 sharing this thing. That's really cool. 887 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,080 I'm glad that you liked it and that that's a relationship 888 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:40,760 that's immediately being formed. So having this opportunity like, 889 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,080 you know, you just like when you see something you like, tell 890 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:48,120 people you like it. It's very simple, but it has 891 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,840 one, it does a lot of things. It one, it immediately creates a 892 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:53,720 relationship you have with that person that you're promoting the 893 00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:57,320 thing. It can also tell everybody what 894 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,160 you like, what your values are, what's your sort of 895 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,320 sensibilities are. So like, if you are someone 896 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,080 who's a nobody, but you start sharing that all the like the 897 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,440 best, like Mork work stuff, people then will now know, oh, 898 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,880 this person's a Morkboard person, they like Morkboard 899 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:12,320 things. And if they like what I like, 900 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:14,600 I'm probably going to like whatever they make, right. 901 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:19,600 So that's like a, a very simple relationship way to promote 902 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,200 yourself is just be transparent and open about the things that 903 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:24,760 you, that excite you, that you like. 904 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:30,120 The other person I, I want to bring up is, and I'm going to 905 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:34,200 say I, I can't, I don't know if it's ASA or ASA ASA Donald or 906 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:40,480 backwards Tabletop has been going ripping through social 907 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:44,680 media recently because he made a, a game called spine. 908 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:49,880 And instead of just sending spine to a bunch of people or 909 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:55,160 like sending like, you know, promotions, which of course he 910 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:56,760 did. But one of the things he also 911 00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:01,360 did was he reached out to me and other designers specifically and 912 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,000 was like, Hey, I, I'm making something that is in this like 913 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,760 territory. You make something and talk 914 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,240 about this thing, this area of expertise. 915 00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:11,360 I think you're an expert in this thing. 916 00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:13,640 I want to interview you about this thing. 917 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:19,000 And So what ended up happening was like, without having to talk 918 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,560 at all about spine, we got to talk about completely semi 919 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,960 related thing instead. And that became content for 920 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:27,680 them. It became an opportunity for me 921 00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,760 to the content for me. You know, I, we basically talked 922 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,360 about like book design and how like the design of a book 923 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,320 influences the way you interact with a book, which happens to be 924 00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,920 what spine is all about. But spine was never brought up 925 00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,280 in the interview. We just talked about book 926 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,720 design, something I really care about, something I'm passionate 927 00:47:45,720 --> 00:47:48,520 about. And they gave me an excuse to be 928 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:53,080 a freak on, on an interview. And then they went to other 929 00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,200 people and did the same thing where they're like, Hey, I want 930 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,760 to interview you about the thing that you're obsessed with. 931 00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:02,200 And so they, they had a found a way to promote other people 932 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,960 while still talking about a thing that was relevant to the 933 00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,320 thing that they're making. So I think that's just a, you 934 00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,720 know, again, you know, like one of these sort of things of like 935 00:48:10,720 --> 00:48:12,440 when you're talking about other people, when you're promoting 936 00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:14,440 other people, there's often something you have in common 937 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,200 with them that allows you both to benefit. 938 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:20,240 It's, it's not a 0 sum sort of experience. 939 00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:23,400 It is a mutually beneficial conversation that could benefit 940 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,880 everybody, and it's all entirely positive. 941 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,360 Yeah. I mean, that's that's what we 942 00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:32,760 end up doing on our show a bunch. 943 00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:34,200 So I mean, yeah. Yeah, exactly. 944 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:36,600 The weekly scroll is basically that. 945 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:39,920 I mean, it's we, you know, not Tooting on a horn here, but 946 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:41,880 that's the reason we do. It's the reason we don't review 947 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:43,760 games we don't like. You know, we might be very 948 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,720 critical of some of the games we review, but every single one 949 00:48:46,720 --> 00:48:49,640 that we've reviewed almost we like. 950 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,800 And we, the point of our show has always been to promote smart 951 00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,160 creators, you know, and another person who does that really 952 00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,240 extremely well is Gary Snow over the Daiku Podcast. 953 00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:04,800 They do incredible interviews with a lot of just creators 954 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,160 across the board, big, small, everything in between. 955 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,400 But I particularly really like their game pitch episodes. 956 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:15,200 We they do, you know, Gary does things like similar to that 957 00:49:15,240 --> 00:49:18,160 stuff that we do, but Gary does it a lot better with much better 958 00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,440 production. But their game pitch episodes, 959 00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:23,440 they actually pull stuff up and, and pitch the game and explain 960 00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,440 the game and, and promote the game over there. 961 00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,320 So the Daiku podcasts are my favorite podcast. 962 00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:30,600 We've had Gary on the show before. 963 00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:33,800 He's someone that I talk to regularly like because he's 964 00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:38,560 someone that I can talk to from perspective of like also being a 965 00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:40,520 podcast host and having guests and things like that. 966 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:42,120 There's someone who has similar experiences. 967 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,200 But again, they they do incredible stuff and talk about 968 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:48,000 promotion. Go back Bug Busters on 969 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,360 Kickstarter right now. It's a project from Gary that's 970 00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,040 really fantastic. But if you do like interview 971 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,040 podcasts, if you like getting game pitches, if you like 972 00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,680 hearing about new games, definitely go check out the 973 00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,960 Daiku podcast. And, and he's just a great 974 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,640 example of exactly what we're talking about is promoting other 975 00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:07,600 people and, and having a platform to do that from. 976 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,400 And also just genuinely one of like the nicest guys ever, so. 977 00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,880 Yeah, huge. All right. 978 00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:19,400 And then we have our our last category for good examples or 979 00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:24,120 good methods for self promotion. And this is the one that is like 980 00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:27,640 special, like very important to me because it's something I do 981 00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:29,960 all the time. It's the my entire identity 982 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,800 online is because of this. Sharing knowledge and interests 983 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:36,840 is a way to self promote yourself. 984 00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:41,280 The biggest complaint or like concern or question that a lot 985 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:45,240 of people give me when I talk to them about like promoting their 986 00:50:45,240 --> 00:50:48,040 work is they'll be like, I have nothing to talk about. 987 00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:50,040 They'll be I have nothing to talk about. 988 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,720 So like, it's either I sell my game or I don't have anything to 989 00:50:53,720 --> 00:50:55,400 say. And it's like you do have 990 00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:58,440 something to talk about because you care about things like, and, 991 00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:03,920 and everything that you care about is an excuse to talk and 992 00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,160 like, and have those opportunities to like interact 993 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,880 with people. So I have two examples in this 994 00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,760 category as well. I'll start with a, a person I 995 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:14,960 met at Gen. Con who, whose work I've liked 996 00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:18,360 for a really long time, Ryan Lynch, that is a perils and 997 00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,800 princesses designer, amazing illustrator. 998 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:27,160 And he has this he's got he's, he frustrates me because his 999 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,200 work is so good and he's doing exactly the things I should be 1000 00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,520 doing but I don't do. He is on Instagram and he does 1001 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:37,560 like short, you know, reels where he, cuz he's an 1002 00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:41,200 illustrator and he's a fan of like old illustration style from 1003 00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,720 like picture books and fables and folklore and things like 1004 00:51:43,720 --> 00:51:45,720 that. And he will do all these like 1005 00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:49,920 small videos where he is just showing you historic famous 1006 00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:53,160 painters and illustrators from the past and talking about what 1007 00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,520 that style is, how it was made, why it's great. 1008 00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:00,240 And then he sometimes applies it to his own work. 1009 00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,360 He'll make, he'll do his own illustrations and he'll be like, 1010 00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:05,720 oh, this was inspired by this person. 1011 00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,600 It's it's amazing work. It like it's a thing where like 1012 00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:14,120 I've never cared about like fantasy, like children's book 1013 00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,440 illustrators. Now I'm like, I'm I'm weirdly 1014 00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,320 obsessed about it because like again, like passions like 1015 00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,840 incredibly infectious. And he's also just really 1016 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,360 knowledgeable about it. So like, you know, having a like 1017 00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,200 a knowledge or expertise and I think means that you immediately 1018 00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:33,000 have something to share, even if all your expertise is just 1019 00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,440 perspective, right? But his happens to be 1020 00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:40,720 perspective and the fact that he's a really good illustrator 1021 00:52:40,720 --> 00:52:43,720 designer, you know, multi hyphenate thing. 1022 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:50,000 So that's one. The second example is John over 1023 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:55,320 at Skeleton Code Machine. That is a newsletter that again, 1024 00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:59,120 another person where I frustrates the hell out of me 1025 00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:04,160 because he posts once or twice a week, never misses a single time 1026 00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:09,600 and every single post is about some board game or mechanic 1027 00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:12,040 that's really exciting him. I don't know. 1028 00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,240 He doesn't sleep, I presume he doesn't sleep. 1029 00:53:14,240 --> 00:53:17,560 I don't think he has a family. He certainly has friends cuz you 1030 00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,800 all play board games with them, but I don't I don't think he 1031 00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:24,080 eats. It's amazing what he covers it. 1032 00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:27,840 And again, like his entire audience is he's done all the 1033 00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,320 things on this list. He's provide resources that are 1034 00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:34,400 people been generous with his time, but his primary thing that 1035 00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:38,080 I think everyone knows him for is this newsletter where he is 1036 00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:43,680 just sharing amazing like little factoids and like analysis of 1037 00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:45,880 board games. This thing that is immediately 1038 00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:50,040 adjacent to role-playing games, but it's not role-playing games. 1039 00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:52,320 So it's inherently unique and interesting I. 1040 00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:57,600 Mean so the the skills of code machine and and and then just 1041 00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:00,360 like exhume press and general stuff. 1042 00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:02,520 They they have occasionally covered some RPG stuff or like 1043 00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:05,400 some some things that they have. Some RPG stuff too. 1044 00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:07,240 Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, you're talking about like 1045 00:54:07,240 --> 00:54:10,440 beast and and, you know, some of the stuff that they've done, but 1046 00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:14,680 but my God, as soon as I found skeleton code machine blew my 1047 00:54:14,720 --> 00:54:17,760 blew my mind. And as you said, you know, like 1048 00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:24,280 I feel like we could, our show could be bigger, more popular, I 1049 00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:25,800 don't care. That's a conversation we can 1050 00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:27,440 have later. So that's why we can't. 1051 00:54:27,720 --> 00:54:32,640 But even if I did, I know that I do not have the spoons to, to 1052 00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:35,680 post that much on the Internet to make a real to cut. 1053 00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:39,680 Do you know why we stream live to Twitch and then without like 1054 00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:41,760 doing it and edit 'cause I don't edit this shit. 1055 00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:43,960 I chopped the beginning and the end off and I put it on the 1056 00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:46,200 Internet because that's the spoons I have for the show. 1057 00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:49,440 The amount of work as you just said that that that they put 1058 00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:54,320 into every single post, the analysis, the math breakdown, 1059 00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:57,040 the, the thought. And as you said, it's multiple 1060 00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:00,160 times a week on top of like everything else. 1061 00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:04,400 I don't understand people that like the Internet burns me out 1062 00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,640 the second I do it. Like if I, if I post, if I, if I 1063 00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:12,560 make a thumbnail post the thing to YouTube, post the thing to, 1064 00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:16,600 to Spotify or whatever, we're all our RSS goes out. 1065 00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:19,840 And then actually remember to do the the Instagram post for it. 1066 00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:22,280 I'm Bert for the day. That's all I can do. 1067 00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:27,520 I can't imagine how these people put this much just just effort 1068 00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:30,480 into quality, quality stuff while Ryan the skeleton code 1069 00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:32,360 machine and so many other people, I mean, other people are 1070 00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:35,640 we've talked about previously too, like like chocolates and 1071 00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:39,040 and Matt too, still like just insane production. 1072 00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,120 But yeah, like, yeah. And I. 1073 00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:45,720 Incredible, incredible work. I I I've joked on I was on 1074 00:55:45,720 --> 00:55:49,520 between two Karens recently and they're a different podcast was 1075 00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:51,640 all offered and. And. 1076 00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:58,600 And I I didn't say I'm Mellie a skull boy, but I am a. 3rd. 1077 00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:03,160 Yeah, yeah, yeah. A 1/3 between 3 Cairns, Yeah, 1078 00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:03,800 between. Yeah. 1079 00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:08,640 It's funny, but the I said to them I was like, I have a flaw. 1080 00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:11,960 I'm just lazy. Like, I mean, it just takes so 1081 00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:14,600 much energy to make a, a thing sometimes. 1082 00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:17,040 And I, and I've tried to get better at it and I one of the 1083 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,160 ways that I get better at it is by like finding like the path of 1084 00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:25,720 least resistance, which is what you're doing with, you know, the 1085 00:56:25,720 --> 00:56:28,480 weekly scroll by like you only have so many spoons. 1086 00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:29,880 Find a system that works for you. 1087 00:56:30,240 --> 00:56:32,560 They are a lot of these people who are really prolific. 1088 00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,200 I think part of why they're able to do is because they're clearly 1089 00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:37,560 hyper focused on a thing that they like to do. 1090 00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:43,800 I think if Hodag had to be, you know, writing all the time, 1091 00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:46,360 maybe they wouldn't be making as much. 1092 00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:48,880 But like, it's the illustration that's got the juice, right. 1093 00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:52,800 So you got to find the thing that excites you, that keeps you 1094 00:56:53,240 --> 00:56:55,920 promoting yourself and, you know, getting yourself out there 1095 00:56:56,000 --> 00:57:00,040 more more likely. So, yeah, those are our 1096 00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:02,920 examples. Let's get to the next part of 1097 00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:04,640 this. And by the way, Ryan, we are 1098 00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:06,840 burning time like this is this is a lot. 1099 00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:08,840 We we spent a long time on the examples. 1100 00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:12,760 Oh yeah, Well, that I was just going to say we have, this is 1101 00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:20,720 almost at exactly an hour mark. So basically we're getting to 1102 00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:23,440 the the actual actionable meet right now. 1103 00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,160 The first hour is talking about, you know, all the people and the 1104 00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:28,040 examples of everything. Now we're going to get into the 1105 00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:31,320 the nitty gritty, the actual bits and pieces. 1106 00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:33,760 This is the actual kind of like work that you can do. 1107 00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,840 The first one we're going to talk about is how to draft an 1108 00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:43,960 e-mail or message. My gosh, you have good examples 1109 00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,120 and then bad examples. Do you want to do bad examples 1110 00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:47,440 first? Because I feel like the good 1111 00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:50,040 examples. How do you want to do the 1112 00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:52,000 sandwich method of examples here? 1113 00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:58,600 I mean, I think if we do just like a couple like bad examples, 1114 00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:02,880 then we kind of imply what the good examples going to be, 1115 00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:03,920 right? Like, because we're going to say 1116 00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:06,080 why we think it's quote UN quote bad. 1117 00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:08,760 Well, then let's just put examples and we can talk about a 1118 00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:09,960 bit of both. How about that? 1119 00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:10,840 Yeah. All right. 1120 00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:14,800 So all right, I, I, if you want to pull something up, you can, 1121 00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,760 but I can also just describe the three bad examples that I have 1122 00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:19,680 in my mind. You go for your three and then 1123 00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:20,840 I'll talk about a couple of mine. 1124 00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:23,200 Yeah, OK. Great, so, and I'm thinking this 1125 00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:26,280 as like emails or DMS, I'm going to treat them both as the same 1126 00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:30,200 thing. The first bad example is the hey 1127 00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:33,200 and then nothing else. You just send me a hey. 1128 00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:37,080 Don't do that. Here's the reason why. 1129 00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:42,640 One, if you say hey, you might be a bot, that's the first 1130 00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:44,200 thing, like bots do the same thing. 1131 00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:47,720 The second one is is like, I don't know what you're engaging 1132 00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:50,720 me with and I partly assume that you maybe you're about to talk 1133 00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:55,040 to me about something I've made. So when I then get the follow up 1134 00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:59,360 after I reply, Hey, what's up? And you give me just a, a sort 1135 00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:02,280 of boilerplate pitch, I'm like kind of bummed out. 1136 00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,880 I'm like, oh, OK, that it's sort of like a bait and switch. 1137 00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:11,120 So, you know, First off, bad example, just not getting to the 1138 00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:13,480 point. A good example gets to the point 1139 00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:18,440 like get in, get out, be very kind and respectful of people's 1140 00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:22,600 time. The the second bad example is 1141 00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:28,840 the boilerplate like you're a snake oil salesman who's yelling 1142 00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:31,400 into the whole village. You send me a e-mail that says 1143 00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:33,800 announcing blah blah blah the game. 1144 00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:38,400 You can find this wonderful stores near you, including blah, 1145 00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:41,200 blah, blah, like when you take on if it feels like you're doing 1146 00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:45,320 in a radio announcer voice and you were sending a direct 1147 00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:51,160 correspondence to somebody, re evaluate it, go back to it, find 1148 00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:53,440 a way to make it personal. You are not talking to a crowd. 1149 00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:55,800 You're talking to a person. And because you're probably talk 1150 00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:58,160 we're we're talking about RPGs, you're probably talking to a 1151 00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:00,560 person who's around the same size or has a similar life to 1152 01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:03,000 you. You're not communicating with a 1153 01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:07,360 corporation or even a like a person who's a celebrity. 1154 01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:09,560 I mean, they might be a celebrity in RPGs, which means 1155 01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:12,400 that they're probably the second most notable person at their 1156 01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:15,440 local Walgreens is not very interesting. 1157 01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:18,480 So you know, again, don't don't send. 1158 01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:22,400 Messages that sound like they're for everybody or anybody. 1159 01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:27,880 And then the last one is this is just a very small thing. 1160 01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:30,600 Don't ask, don't open with a question. 1161 01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:34,000 I think this is like an advertising copywriting like no, 1162 01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:37,640 no, that people get like you're not going to open a 1163 01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:40,440 correspondence by saying got milk question mark and then have 1164 01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,600 your cookie based RPG like pitch immediately after. 1165 01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:48,840 Just open with a normal greeting and then get to the point. 1166 01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:54,480 Those are my 3 like bad examples and the how to make it not a bad 1167 01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:57,720 example. But Ryan, you get a lot more 1168 01:00:57,720 --> 01:00:59,960 than I do I. I get, I actually get a lot of 1169 01:00:59,960 --> 01:01:01,800 emails. I'm glad we're not more popular 1170 01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:04,040 once again, because I hate the amount that we get. 1171 01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:06,920 I'm I'm thinking about just having an automated message 1172 01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:10,160 response, but I, I'm going to go a little bit more. 1173 01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:12,160 You can wait. Like topics of bad examples. 1174 01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:13,760 I'm going to go more specific bad examples. 1175 01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:15,040 Obviously I'm not going to name names. 1176 01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:18,360 Obviously I'm not going to read verbatim, but I have my e-mail 1177 01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:22,560 open right here and I'm just going to go through I'll I'll 1178 01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:26,880 even, I'll even little show you how the sausage is made in my 1179 01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:30,920 weekly scroll Gmail folder. I have a good press and bad 1180 01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:33,640 press folder. And I can tell you right now if 1181 01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:37,280 I get a good e-mail from someone, even if I don't have 1182 01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:39,440 time, even if you don't have time to interview them or don't 1183 01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:42,640 necessarily want to talk about their game right now, but they 1184 01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:44,760 were a good person that I interacted with. 1185 01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:46,400 I will put them in the good press folder. 1186 01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:49,600 So if they happen to e-mail me in the future, it pops into 1187 01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:51,600 there and I can say, Oh yes, they were someone I had a good 1188 01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:52,520 interaction with. That's great. 1189 01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:55,520 But I definitely have a bad press folder. 1190 01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:59,200 And I can tell you when I get emails that make that, just some 1191 01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:01,960 of these, I stick in there. And some of those people, I'll 1192 01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:04,520 say I will never interact with these people because of the 1193 01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:08,880 interactions I had with them. But let's go through some of 1194 01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:14,480 those and we'll talk about why they were bad and again, like 1195 01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:17,000 you said, things that you can do to make it better. 1196 01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:22,240 I'll skip all of the AI bullshit emails and I'll come back to 1197 01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:29,520 this one. What I get a lot is in emails it 1198 01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:36,400 says hi, and then it immediately goes into a pitch like I had 1199 01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:37,800 this game coming out. It's this and this and this. 1200 01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:41,360 I know you said get to the point The the thing that will I will 1201 01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:45,280 always latch onto that I want to see more is this is a good 1202 01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:46,440 e-mail. I got someone, they wrote. 1203 01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:50,800 Hi Hunter and Ryan. Yeah, it's amazing. 1204 01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:54,000 Thank you for acknowledging our fucking names. 1205 01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:58,360 Second second to that is I'll get this is good examples stress 1206 01:02:58,360 --> 01:02:59,440 me. I'll get to the bad ones. 1207 01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:03,720 I'll get Hey, weekly scroll team, you know what I'll take 1208 01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:05,160 it. I'll take it. 1209 01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:11,720 Let me all right, I'm I'm going to do this one. 1210 01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:15,320 This is 1 I got that really drove me drove me nuts. 1211 01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:19,200 Hello, comma. I want to know at the beginning, 1212 01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:25,160 though, our e-mail address was listed in the BCC, which means 1213 01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:30,200 that you know that they got a giant list of people they stuck 1214 01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:33,160 all of the emails in there and just mass e-mail the thing out, 1215 01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:35,560 right? Yeah, don't fucking do that. 1216 01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:40,840 And if you do hide it better, like I can see that I'm on a 1217 01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:42,520 list with a bunch of other people. 1218 01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:46,320 Again, be humane. I genuinely think that you 1219 01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:49,120 should. If you have to send 50 emails, 1220 01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:53,800 I'm sorry, send 50 emails. Don't send one e-mail to 50 1221 01:03:53,800 --> 01:04:00,000 people, right? But this specific one said, hey, 1222 01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:02,240 I'm sharing this thing that's coming out. 1223 01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:08,320 This project is being released, you know, but here's an embargo 1224 01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:10,040 on when you're allowed to talk about it. 1225 01:04:11,080 --> 01:04:12,840 You know what I did with that immediately, without reading the 1226 01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:14,240 rest of it? I stuck it in bad press. 1227 01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:15,880 I'm sorry. You're not Hollywood. 1228 01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:18,920 You're not. I don't like we have never 1229 01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:24,520 interacted before like acting. I don't know to me that drugged 1230 01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:27,600 me super the wrong way to be like hi, I want you to promote 1231 01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:30,440 me, but only in the specific way that I want you to promote and 1232 01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:32,880 and the time that I want you to be promoted for it. 1233 01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:35,120 I don't have time for that. There's a million games yours. 1234 01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:37,480 Is, and I, I feel like there's a way, I feel like there's a way 1235 01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:41,080 to do that that's more organic and normal. 1236 01:04:41,080 --> 01:04:43,520 Like, and I think there's, here's another thing. 1237 01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:46,040 It's like, there's like professional like language that 1238 01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:48,640 sometimes doesn't need to be deployed depending on the 1239 01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:51,680 interaction. Like you could just as easily 1240 01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:54,760 suggested embargo like, or the embargo being like, Hey, you 1241 01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:56,480 can't review this until this date. 1242 01:04:56,960 --> 01:04:59,280 Another way of saying that instead of saying like, hey, 1243 01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:01,760 there's an embargo on this is you being like, hey, just so you 1244 01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:05,320 know, it's not releasing until this time. 1245 01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:08,400 And we were really hoping you might be able to, if you're 1246 01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:11,720 interested, wait until this point to maybe talk about it. 1247 01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:15,280 But we'd love to hear, you know what, if you have any ideas or 1248 01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:18,280 thoughts on this, You know, like that's how you word the same 1249 01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:21,680 exact message, you get the same content across, but you do it in 1250 01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:24,360 a way that feels very conversational, very natural. 1251 01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:27,840 Don't don't use the the legal speak. 1252 01:05:28,160 --> 01:05:31,080 It's be enough of it, right? It sucks. 1253 01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:36,000 Yeah, a couple more. Sounds like AT&T start over. 1254 01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:38,640 Couple more bad examples here because I do want to talk about 1255 01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:40,840 some good ones too, but some of these are I got 1. 1256 01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:47,960 You know what I what I really hate is when I get hey, maybe a 1257 01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:50,080 line that kind of addresses us a little bit. 1258 01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:53,320 That's cool. And then the fought changes for 1259 01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:57,960 the rest of the message, which shows that they just copy pasted 1260 01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:01,000 everything besides the first sentence into the e-mail. 1261 01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:05,120 Fine, listen, I'm not asking you to redo all of it. 1262 01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:08,560 I'm gonna do a little tip for you if you if you control. 1263 01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:12,080 I know what you're gonna. Say if you control Shift V, it 1264 01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:14,680 will format to whatever format you're currently in instead of 1265 01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:17,840 the format that you copy pasted. So that'll fix it. 1266 01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:20,840 I also got one that I know is copy pasted because it's not 1267 01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:24,440 across the whole page. It's like 10 words in a row 1268 01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:26,240 down. So I know whatever they copy 1269 01:06:26,240 --> 01:06:29,000 pasted it from was from something that was formatted 1270 01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:30,440 differently. They didn't even fix the 1271 01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:34,480 formatting for it. That's another one that that 1272 01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:36,840 drives me a little bit nuts. I'll say the standard e-mail I 1273 01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:40,880 get that I don't think is a good e-mail is high game pitch 1274 01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:46,640 immediately. And then, you know, I'll I'll 1275 01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:49,840 get stuff that's like however you want to do, you know, 1276 01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:52,040 whatever with this, thanks so much or whatever. 1277 01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:54,240 And I'm like, that's fine. I guess that's extremely 1278 01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:57,320 generic, but like not mentioning me, obviously copy pasting the 1279 01:06:57,320 --> 01:06:59,280 same pitch that you sent to everyone else and then not 1280 01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:02,360 actually asking for what you want from us doesn't really 1281 01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:05,000 doesn't really do it for me. I'm going to give you a good 1282 01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:07,200 press example that I got recently that I really, really 1283 01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:12,080 loved. This is someone actually and 1284 01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:15,200 this is different for our podcast too because we have a 1285 01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:19,800 discord and in the discord list at the very top is a channel for 1286 01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:21,920 how to contact us that has all of our links and stuff. 1287 01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:26,400 And in the rules for a discord, one of the rules is do not DM me 1288 01:07:26,720 --> 01:07:29,400 or hunter in our Discord about promotion. 1289 01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:32,080 Here is our e-mail. Please just e-mail us. 1290 01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:35,560 What's funny is I saw this person hop into our discord and 1291 01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:37,760 then 30 minutes later I get an e-mail. 1292 01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:40,440 I already know it's them and I already appreciate that they 1293 01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:43,360 didn't DM me, that they read the rules, got the e-mail, sent me 1294 01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:48,760 the e-mail and the e-mail says again, roughly, hey, you know, I 1295 01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:50,200 recently got recommended your show. 1296 01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:52,840 I really appreciate what you do based on the show. 1297 01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:54,920 I really like that you do that on the show. 1298 01:07:55,160 --> 01:07:57,680 And I like the way that you approach your critique because 1299 01:07:57,680 --> 01:08:00,680 of these reasons. And it's written as if it's from 1300 01:08:00,680 --> 01:08:02,680 a normal person, not from like Chachi, BT, whatever 1301 01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:04,680 specifically talking about things that we talked about on 1302 01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:09,240 the show, even giving examples. Perfect, perfect. 1303 01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:12,440 Not it's the best. Just saying our names is is a 1304 01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:14,680 small step in the right direction, but actually saying, 1305 01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:19,200 hey, I watched your show, I know what it's about and I like it is 1306 01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:22,520 a great way to start. Then they say, by the way, I 1307 01:08:22,520 --> 01:08:26,560 have this thing coming out. It's this is kind of what it is. 1308 01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:30,560 If you have a chance and you want to look at it, I've linked 1309 01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:32,800 it below. Any feedback you have at all 1310 01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:35,560 would be fantastic. No pressure or no anything. 1311 01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:37,279 I'm sure people send you a bunch of emails. 1312 01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:40,080 The game's not coming out yet. This is just a quick start. 1313 01:08:40,319 --> 01:08:43,319 But if you get a chance, you know, that's cool. 1314 01:08:43,319 --> 01:08:47,080 Thank you so much. One of my favorite emails I've 1315 01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:50,080 ever gotten in the three years that I've done this. 1316 01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:53,120 You can't ask for more than exactly that. 1317 01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:57,279 Acknowledging, saying our names, acknowledging what it is we do 1318 01:08:57,399 --> 01:09:02,960 and and what you like about it, and then giving us the pitch for 1319 01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:06,000 what you're talking about and then ending it again like a 1320 01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:08,200 human being. Hey, this is a kind of feedback 1321 01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:09,960 I'd really appreciate if you have time for it. 1322 01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:12,920 Thank you so much. I felt like a human being wrote 1323 01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:16,600 me an e-mail as if I was another human being and talked as if 1324 01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:19,399 they would have talked to me had they ran into me like Gen. 1325 01:09:19,399 --> 01:09:22,600 Con or PAX or something. Hey Ryan. 1326 01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:24,880 Like I like the weekly scroll. Like I, I think it's really cool 1327 01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:26,439 you do this. I also have this game coming 1328 01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:27,160 out. It's really neat. 1329 01:09:27,279 --> 01:09:29,040 Let me get your e-mail and I'll send you APDF. 1330 01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:31,200 That's how people have interacted in the cons. 1331 01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:33,640 I just wish people would interact the same way when they 1332 01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:37,560 send an e-mail. Yeah, and I, I'm, I'm feeling 1333 01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:41,160 it's like counter argument that someone in my head of like 1334 01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:44,279 someone be like, but I can't do that to like 50 people. 1335 01:09:44,279 --> 01:09:46,840 Like, you know, you said earlier this, this sounds like this 1336 01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:48,600 person might be emailing 50 different people. 1337 01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:52,399 And it's like the answer is don't e-mail 50 people. 1338 01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:58,200 The the six personalized emails to the podcast and shows that 1339 01:09:58,200 --> 01:10:02,360 you know, the creators, you know where you can acknowledge them 1340 01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:05,440 by name and what they do and show an appreciation and 1341 01:10:05,440 --> 01:10:07,960 indicate that you're part of that community in some fashion 1342 01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:14,560 will have way more impact than fifty 100 or 1000 emails out 1343 01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:17,200 that don't know any that don't do any of those things right. 1344 01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:20,320 That just suggests an impersonal sort of a transactional 1345 01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:22,040 relationship. So. 1346 01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:25,800 My counterpoint here, counterpoint is when marketing 1347 01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:28,360 and stuff like this, don't ask me why I randomly know this, but 1348 01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:30,960 like, you know, those like smarmy lotion people at the mall 1349 01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:33,520 or the people that always like, as you're walking by, try to 1350 01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:34,960 stop and talk to you and stuff like that. 1351 01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:38,880 The conversion rate for stopping people after a certain 1352 01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:42,200 percentage of people stopped and actually making a sale is 1353 01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:45,360 roughly 10%, right? So. 1354 01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:49,360 Here's the numbers game. So here's the thing, if you're 1355 01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:56,400 going to send 1000 emails, maybe it's worth that 10% to fucking 1356 01:10:56,400 --> 01:10:58,560 copy paste and do whatever. If we're going to spend 10,000 1357 01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:01,920 emails, whatever, we are in the small market teach RPG space. 1358 01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:03,560 If you still want to call it indie, that's fine. 1359 01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:07,080 You're not. There's not 1000 people to talk 1360 01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:10,200 to. So it you that whole concept of 1361 01:11:10,200 --> 01:11:14,720 the numbers game goes away because 10% of the 50 people you 1362 01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:18,920 might send to is maybe 5 people. When instead of doing this copy 1363 01:11:18,920 --> 01:11:21,200 paste bullshit message that forty of those people are going 1364 01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:24,560 to ignore and maybe not respond to you positively in the future 1365 01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:27,400 for sending. As opposed to that again, at 10% 1366 01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:30,160 is five people that you could have sent the personalized 1367 01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:32,520 e-mail to that you're more likely to get a response for. 1368 01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:34,560 Think about that for the numbers game, right? 1369 01:11:35,280 --> 01:11:38,040 And here's the thing too is if we're saying personalized emails 1370 01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:42,360 to people that you actually want to interact with, I don't know 1371 01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:44,400 50 fucking people, right? That I would want to send an 1372 01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:45,800 e-mail to send it to the people you want. 1373 01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:48,760 But if you do want to send 50 emails, yes you can. 1374 01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:50,800 Again, I'm not saying don't copy paste anything. 1375 01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:52,160 I even taught you how to copy paste. 1376 01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:55,640 Well, it's OK like this. This is 2 paragraphs. 1377 01:11:55,640 --> 01:11:57,600 The second part being like the pitch for the game. 1378 01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:00,840 Copy paste that shit in and just write those 3 lines in the 1379 01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:03,480 beginning that says I actually know who you are and what you 1380 01:12:03,480 --> 01:12:05,640 do, right? So if you want to send 50, the 1381 01:12:05,640 --> 01:12:10,880 other thing too is send 5A day for 10 days, send 3A day for 1382 01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:13,680 However that math works out like unless your game's coming out 1383 01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:16,200 tomorrow, guess what you should have started your promo six 1384 01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:19,600 months ago. You know, like that's it's 1385 01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:22,720 better to personalize the emails because you know what I did? 1386 01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:26,680 You know, what I did with this e-mail is I immediately 1387 01:12:26,680 --> 01:12:29,240 downloaded the game, flipped through it, hopped on my 1388 01:12:29,240 --> 01:12:32,720 Discord, messaged the person and said, hey, thanks so much for 1389 01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:34,720 your e-mail. What kind of feedback are you 1390 01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:36,760 looking for? And they said blah, blah, blah, 1391 01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:38,080 blah, blah, blah. The rest of the conversation is 1392 01:12:38,080 --> 01:12:40,680 not your business. But that is what I did because 1393 01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:43,120 of how much I appreciated this e-mail, right? 1394 01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:46,200 And I can tell you, there's people that I've made friends 1395 01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:48,680 with. A lot of my friends in the Teach 1396 01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:52,520 RBG space are people that originally emailed me in the 1397 01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:55,840 past, came on the show, became friends with, and now I happily 1398 01:12:55,840 --> 01:12:57,240 promote their stuff all of the time. 1399 01:12:57,240 --> 01:12:59,280 And a lot of it is that first initial interaction. 1400 01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:02,120 So anyway, yeah, we are burning some stuff here. 1401 01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:03,680 Did you we kind of already did the e-mail thing. 1402 01:13:03,680 --> 01:13:06,120 Do you want to draft a quick e-mail or Because I know that's 1403 01:13:06,120 --> 01:13:07,320 one of the things we want to do or did we? 1404 01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:08,360 Just no, I think we're not going. 1405 01:13:08,480 --> 01:13:10,480 We don't need to because I think we kind of got at the point, 1406 01:13:10,480 --> 01:13:15,320 right, like open with like a hello their names and never do 1407 01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:16,560 it. To whom it may concern. 1408 01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:20,120 This is not you do not indicate you're not telling parents that 1409 01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:22,200 their son died at war. All right? 1410 01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:25,160 You're just talking to people. They're probably two people like 1411 01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:30,080 like Hunter and Ryan and then, you know, do all the things that 1412 01:13:30,080 --> 01:13:32,520 we've already said, you know, personalize it, maybe have the 1413 01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:38,080 boiler plates or game pitch and then end it on a would love to 1414 01:13:38,440 --> 01:13:40,400 hear your thoughts. You have and I always like to 1415 01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:43,800 open this is my boiler plate, but I think it's a nice one of 1416 01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:46,240 just being like, hey, and if you have any questions or if there's 1417 01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:48,400 anything I can do to help, let me know. 1418 01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:51,960 Thank you so much. Comma your name signature. 1419 01:13:51,960 --> 01:13:54,880 Yeah, and then you're done. It works every time. 1420 01:13:56,600 --> 01:13:58,280 Yeah, so. It really is. 1421 01:13:58,280 --> 01:14:02,160 I think we said this at the top and to wrap this part up, just 1422 01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:04,320 write like a human being as if you're talking to another human 1423 01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:06,240 being. Yeah, that's it. 1424 01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:10,280 All right. All right, Next section, this 1425 01:14:10,280 --> 01:14:13,320 one's just going to be about making your work easy to share. 1426 01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:16,160 All right. So we talked earlier about how 1427 01:14:16,160 --> 01:14:21,680 like you're not going to be able to personally interact with 1428 01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:24,520 every single person who's going to end up engaging with your 1429 01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:26,440 work. It's going to be degrees of 1430 01:14:26,440 --> 01:14:28,200 separation. And one of the ways that you 1431 01:14:28,200 --> 01:14:33,240 strengthen that that relationship without you being 1432 01:14:33,240 --> 01:14:37,480 directly involved is making your work something that is readily 1433 01:14:37,480 --> 01:14:39,000 shareable. And there's a lot of ways you 1434 01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:41,760 can do this, a lot of qualitative ways that people 1435 01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:44,680 will totally like make the game like more engaging and things 1436 01:14:44,680 --> 01:14:46,360 like that. But we're going to, we're going 1437 01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:51,800 to stick with the brass tacks, the real technical gears that 1438 01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:54,880 that I think are important. The first one is, is make a 1439 01:14:54,880 --> 01:14:58,200 press kit. If you have a game and you're 1440 01:14:58,200 --> 01:15:03,760 really trying to shop it around to I think companies and 1441 01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:07,920 organizations, a press kit's a really useful thing. 1442 01:15:07,920 --> 01:15:10,080 And I think, Ryan, you have probably more experience with 1443 01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:13,400 this because you talked to some of the Plus One XP folks about 1444 01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:15,440 making a press kit. You've had them on in the show 1445 01:15:15,440 --> 01:15:17,360 in the past and things like that. 1446 01:15:17,360 --> 01:15:22,360 But it's just a fact sheet about your game that kind of answers 1447 01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:24,800 questions. Kind of yes, yes. 1448 01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:28,520 So God, I wish I I kind of wanted to talk to someone, reach 1449 01:15:28,520 --> 01:15:30,880 out and see, Hey, can I, can I show a press kit? 1450 01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:33,040 One of the best press kits I've received in in recent memory 1451 01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:37,520 that popped into my head is the reason one from Elliot Davis. 1452 01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:40,200 Like the time we have the game that he has with the two 1453 01:15:40,240 --> 01:15:41,520 brothers on the other side of the doors. 1454 01:15:42,760 --> 01:15:45,360 It's fantastic. I know plus one HP does have a 1455 01:15:46,480 --> 01:15:49,520 from like when Zemo actually existed like 2 years ago or 1456 01:15:49,520 --> 01:15:52,160 whatever. I think they did a. 1457 01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:55,320 Like a stream? A stream talking about making 1458 01:15:55,320 --> 01:15:57,520 the press kit, and I've seen a ton of great press kits in that 1459 01:15:57,520 --> 01:15:59,280 and it's great. But basically what the press kit 1460 01:15:59,280 --> 01:16:01,400 does is yes, it gives you all the details about the game. 1461 01:16:01,400 --> 01:16:02,960 It gives you the full pitch of the game. 1462 01:16:03,720 --> 01:16:07,000 It gives you dates, what to expect. 1463 01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:08,840 It gives you, if you're doing a Kickstarter, maybe talks about 1464 01:16:08,840 --> 01:16:11,560 some of the Kickstarter stuff, but also really important things 1465 01:16:11,560 --> 01:16:13,480 are at the bottom of the Kickstarter or bottom of most 1466 01:16:13,480 --> 01:16:17,680 press kits is stuff that people can use to promote the game. 1467 01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:20,400 So most of them will have a folder to a link full of like 1468 01:16:20,400 --> 01:16:23,920 art assets, links to everyone's social media. 1469 01:16:23,920 --> 01:16:26,520 So you can reach out to them all those kind of tag them. 1470 01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:30,640 So yeah, there's a ton of ton of different places that you can 1471 01:16:31,160 --> 01:16:32,760 find how to make a good press kit. 1472 01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:35,360 But I can tell you right now, if you have a game and you do, are 1473 01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:38,720 you, you're trying to promote to anybody, the first thing you 1474 01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:41,720 should do before you start emailing is make a press kit. 1475 01:16:41,960 --> 01:16:44,480 All of the information that people need to promote your game 1476 01:16:44,480 --> 01:16:46,440 should be in one spot that they can just click on. 1477 01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:49,280 And then embedded in that is all the things that they need to run 1478 01:16:49,280 --> 01:16:52,640 it. And yeah. 1479 01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:56,160 And, you know, it's also just a good exercise, right? 1480 01:16:56,160 --> 01:16:59,520 Like when you do that, you kind of answer a lot of questions 1481 01:16:59,520 --> 01:17:02,800 that you weren't asking yourself beforehand, and that makes 1482 01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:06,560 everything else a lot easier. So, you know, again, it's back 1483 01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:08,760 to that idea of like, respecting people's time. 1484 01:17:09,880 --> 01:17:13,080 If you force yourself to get better at figuring out exactly 1485 01:17:13,080 --> 01:17:15,360 what you want to say, you're going to save everybody a lot of 1486 01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:17,560 trouble and to answer a lot of questions. 1487 01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:19,760 It would be really nice if someone asks you a question, you 1488 01:17:19,760 --> 01:17:21,840 can immediately fire them off an answer, right? 1489 01:17:22,240 --> 01:17:26,560 And a lot of press kits are like basically FAQs that have been 1490 01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:29,000 standardized. Yeah, I'm going to run. 1491 01:17:29,080 --> 01:17:31,240 I'm going to run through 1 real quick. 1492 01:17:31,240 --> 01:17:34,400 I'm not going to say whose it is, but but it is picture at the 1493 01:17:34,400 --> 01:17:40,840 top name their pitch and it says what is this game and gives a 1494 01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:43,360 full breakdown of every all the information that they need it. 1495 01:17:43,560 --> 01:17:45,360 And then it says this game's features. 1496 01:17:45,360 --> 01:17:47,360 What makes it like special to them? 1497 01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:51,120 Boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom games links. 1498 01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:54,720 So it links to everyone's socials, Kickstarter pre launch 1499 01:17:54,720 --> 01:17:56,800 page, publisher pre launch page, everything. 1500 01:17:56,880 --> 01:17:59,880 And then underneath that is art and promotional assets. 1501 01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:04,880 So it's literally a link to one giant folder of headers and 1502 01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:07,760 fonts and like all sources of you have for it and lists the 1503 01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:12,840 team. It lists some like you know that 1504 01:18:12,840 --> 01:18:15,400 like text on the back of the book, kind of stuff that people 1505 01:18:15,400 --> 01:18:18,040 have said about the game. And then at the bottom it says 1506 01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:19,800 following up. Like if you want to follow up, 1507 01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:22,920 this is the person to talk to and and how to reach them. 1508 01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:27,280 Boom, perfect, fucking perfect. Cool. 1509 01:18:28,680 --> 01:18:31,600 All right, I got another one. It's and this one's more 1510 01:18:31,600 --> 01:18:37,480 specifically for me. If you have a blog, give it your 1511 01:18:37,480 --> 01:18:40,360 blog post titles that are easy to share and understand. 1512 01:18:41,320 --> 01:18:44,440 This goes two ways. One, the title should be 1513 01:18:44,440 --> 01:18:49,200 interesting if you just make your blog post that day's date, 1514 01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:53,600 I have no reason to click on it. And I am frankly, when you do 1515 01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:57,160 write something that's really interesting or you share 1516 01:18:57,160 --> 01:18:59,760 something that you made, I'm not going to be able to remember 1517 01:18:59,760 --> 01:19:03,440 which day I read that on, right? So you got to give a nice title. 1518 01:19:03,440 --> 01:19:07,480 And then the second thing is, is like that title, the longer it 1519 01:19:07,480 --> 01:19:11,080 is, the harder it's going to be to put onto a blue sky post or 1520 01:19:11,080 --> 01:19:13,520 into Discord or anything like that. 1521 01:19:13,680 --> 01:19:18,120 And you think that that's not going to be a big deal. 1522 01:19:18,280 --> 01:19:20,920 That is a huge thing. Like when you're someone who 1523 01:19:20,920 --> 01:19:25,680 wants to share someone else's work and their thing is so long 1524 01:19:25,680 --> 01:19:29,400 that you can barely share it, then it's, it becomes an issue. 1525 01:19:29,480 --> 01:19:32,560 You want to grease the wheels on this kind of stuff. 1526 01:19:32,560 --> 01:19:36,200 When people get excited, they, you have a, you have a very 1527 01:19:36,200 --> 01:19:38,880 narrow window where they're like, I want to talk about it. 1528 01:19:39,120 --> 01:19:43,880 And the moment they it becomes a job for them, unless they're 1529 01:19:43,880 --> 01:19:46,120 trying to self promote themselves, like, you know, like 1530 01:19:46,120 --> 01:19:48,480 we mentioned earlier, they're going to stop in their tracks 1531 01:19:48,480 --> 01:19:53,000 and move on. So make your make your titles 1532 01:19:53,520 --> 01:19:57,680 evocative, make them informative, and make them short 1533 01:19:57,680 --> 01:19:59,840 and pithy enough that they can be shared online. 1534 01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:04,120 Doesn't need to be light novel or Isakai anime name titles. 1535 01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:08,760 It doesn't need to be pop punk song names from the early 2000. 1536 01:20:08,760 --> 01:20:10,600 It doesn't. It doesn't need to be like those 1537 01:20:10,760 --> 01:20:13,720 movies where it's like the title and then there's parentheses and 1538 01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:15,840 it's like. Colon this, yeah. 1539 01:20:16,080 --> 01:20:17,200 Colon Yeah, blah blah, blah, blah. 1540 01:20:17,280 --> 01:20:19,880 Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. 1541 01:20:19,880 --> 01:20:23,360 If you want to make your RPGRPG that because it's like a fun 1542 01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:27,840 artistic like thing, go for it. But even then, like you kind of 1543 01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:29,800 want a shorthand name for your RPG, right? 1544 01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:34,040 And it can't all be acronyms. We already have a 2M BS, Mythic, 1545 01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:37,640 Bastion, Land and Morkborg. So you can't rely on acronym. 1546 01:20:37,640 --> 01:20:41,760 You need some short name and it it just do it for yourself. 1547 01:20:41,760 --> 01:20:44,560 I I'm obviously thinking of it as like blogs, but this can be 1548 01:20:44,560 --> 01:20:46,760 used for anything. I mean really you should be 1549 01:20:46,760 --> 01:20:51,400 thinking about it often the and this one is really this next 1550 01:20:51,400 --> 01:20:53,720 point really kind of dovetails into it. 1551 01:20:54,520 --> 01:20:58,120 Make the URL short. This one really goes to my 1552 01:20:58,120 --> 01:21:00,880 bloggers and my Youtubers and my content creators. 1553 01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:06,600 You have your whole websitesname.com/make the next 1554 01:21:06,600 --> 01:21:09,400 thing short. Like I, I'm still getting better 1555 01:21:09,400 --> 01:21:12,800 at this myself, but like on Explorers Design, I used to have 1556 01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:17,240 like 3 or 5 words. It's now I'm trying to keep it 1557 01:21:17,240 --> 01:21:22,280 down to like 2 or one and it it makes it easier because when 1558 01:21:22,280 --> 01:21:26,120 people share it on social it's going to eat into the the word 1559 01:21:26,120 --> 01:21:29,360 count. Well, even even from from my 1560 01:21:29,360 --> 01:21:34,600 side, you can see on our, on our, on our, on my overlay here. 1561 01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:38,160 For those in that are not in podcast land, I, I try to put 1562 01:21:38,160 --> 01:21:41,880 the links onto the overlay so anyone that clicks in can see it 1563 01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:44,480 and and type it in if they want to. 1564 01:21:45,320 --> 01:21:49,360 If you have a Kickstarter or a backer kit, I can tell you those 1565 01:21:49,360 --> 01:21:53,480 are not short URLs when you're trying to share that link. 1566 01:21:54,120 --> 01:21:56,920 TinyURL is a thing. I think it might cost a little 1567 01:21:56,920 --> 01:22:03,240 bit Bitly is a thing, but yeah, Matt Morris, last week it was 1568 01:22:04,200 --> 01:22:08,320 tinyurl.com/rolling Dash Coast. Boom. 1569 01:22:08,360 --> 01:22:10,160 It will fit in a Blue Sky post super well. 1570 01:22:10,440 --> 01:22:12,280 I know Blue skies a little bit different because you can put 1571 01:22:12,280 --> 01:22:14,760 the link in and for those that don't know a little secret on 1572 01:22:14,760 --> 01:22:17,520 Blue Sky, yeah, if you put a link in, it will embed it. 1573 01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:20,960 You can then delete all of the text above the link and it won't 1574 01:22:20,960 --> 01:22:23,680 count against your word limit. But you hear, you know what I'm 1575 01:22:23,680 --> 01:22:25,040 saying? It's going to be a lot easier to 1576 01:22:25,040 --> 01:22:29,480 share tinyurl.com/your project then it is going to be 1577 01:22:29,560 --> 01:22:36,560 www.kickstarter.com/mouseredder/month/rolling/co/display/page slash. 1578 01:22:36,760 --> 01:22:38,720 You know what I mean? It's, it's gonna be a lot easier 1579 01:22:38,720 --> 01:22:41,320 to share when you have that, even if it cost you a tiny bit. 1580 01:22:41,320 --> 01:22:42,680 But I think Bitly is pretty cheap. 1581 01:22:42,680 --> 01:22:45,360 I know we have one that and you get like the first three free or 1582 01:22:45,360 --> 01:22:47,720 whatever. So, you know, do do that. 1583 01:22:47,720 --> 01:22:50,120 Short URLs are great. And we don't even have to say 1584 01:22:50,120 --> 01:22:53,920 this to the podcast folks because we have to say the the 1585 01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:57,640 URL out loud. So like, if it's if it's long, 1586 01:22:58,240 --> 01:23:00,880 nobody's going to want to read it or, or can remember what you 1587 01:23:00,880 --> 01:23:04,080 said on the podcast. So short is good. 1588 01:23:04,320 --> 01:23:08,440 And yeah, use tools to do so remove like conjugates, you 1589 01:23:08,440 --> 01:23:11,040 know, things like that. Like keep it nice, short and 1590 01:23:11,040 --> 01:23:13,000 simple. It's that's all you have to do. 1591 01:23:14,160 --> 01:23:19,200 And then the last one, and this one's a big one, gave your 1592 01:23:19,200 --> 01:23:21,760 products evocative and concise. Some reason tag lines. 1593 01:23:23,320 --> 01:23:27,720 Yeah, it's guys been nuts. Again, it's a great exercise 1594 01:23:28,240 --> 01:23:31,640 because if you do this hell, before you design your game, try 1595 01:23:31,640 --> 01:23:34,280 to write the try to write the product page. 1596 01:23:35,280 --> 01:23:37,360 This is like a weirdly like this is a great hack. 1597 01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:40,320 Like you find out how much of what your game actually is about 1598 01:23:40,520 --> 01:23:42,960 just by trying to write the the quote UN quote product page, the 1599 01:23:42,960 --> 01:23:45,760 hypothetical one. But I'll tell you someone who's 1600 01:23:45,760 --> 01:23:53,520 really good at this will yopes like descriptions of their games 1601 01:23:53,520 --> 01:23:57,400 are perfect. Like I I think about plasmodics 1602 01:23:57,400 --> 01:24:02,800 is a what if you took can can you do you have it available? 1603 01:24:02,800 --> 01:24:05,760 Right now, as you were doing it, I was typing in Plasmodics 1604 01:24:05,760 --> 01:24:08,760 Kickstarter. OK, like it's, I, I remember 1605 01:24:08,760 --> 01:24:11,320 them saying on like I think it was your podcast or someone 1606 01:24:11,320 --> 01:24:14,160 else's that it is like if you took Gamma world and you naked 1607 01:24:14,160 --> 01:24:18,560 it in the microwave and listen, a lot of you are going to be 1608 01:24:18,560 --> 01:24:20,320 like, I don't know what that means, but the people who want 1609 01:24:20,320 --> 01:24:23,680 to buy this game, who know what Gamma World is, are sold 1610 01:24:23,680 --> 01:24:26,960 immediately, right? It's it's the coolest way to 1611 01:24:26,960 --> 01:24:30,760 have ever said that. I, I've remade gamma world in 1612 01:24:30,760 --> 01:24:32,400 the most Gamma world way possible. 1613 01:24:33,560 --> 01:24:37,080 It's amazing. And, and, and all of their games 1614 01:24:37,080 --> 01:24:38,920 are like that. They have these amazing pitches. 1615 01:24:40,160 --> 01:24:42,040 It wasn't on our show. I I've yet to have. 1616 01:24:42,040 --> 01:24:43,400 I've met Will. Will's fantastic. 1617 01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:45,000 Obviously we're big Adam Bass fans. 1618 01:24:45,120 --> 01:24:46,800 We got to get Will on the show. They gave me a copy of 1619 01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:48,120 Plasmonics at Gin Cod. That's right. 1620 01:24:48,120 --> 01:24:50,520 I got whatever you fucking know, Not you, the people out there. 1621 01:24:51,160 --> 01:24:53,880 I got 1. But but what I'm talking about, 1622 01:24:53,880 --> 01:24:55,680 yours is a little different from what I'm talking about. 1623 01:24:55,680 --> 01:24:58,920 What I'm talking about is when I want to have when we're talking 1624 01:24:58,920 --> 01:25:04,960 about a game on the show, I say we're reviewing this game from 1625 01:25:04,960 --> 01:25:08,120 this person comma quick pitch of the game, right? 1626 01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:10,720 Do you know how many games out there don't have that quick 1627 01:25:10,720 --> 01:25:13,080 pitch of the game? Do you know how fucking annoying 1628 01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:16,080 it is when I have to go to their itch page and read their three 1629 01:25:16,080 --> 01:25:20,120 paragraph, you know, copy to try to summarize down one sentence 1630 01:25:20,120 --> 01:25:23,080 that will fit in a blue sky fucking post Like it's, it's, 1631 01:25:23,560 --> 01:25:26,400 it's it would be a lot easier and a lot easier to promote your 1632 01:25:26,400 --> 01:25:29,280 game if you just tell me concisely what the fuck your 1633 01:25:29,280 --> 01:25:31,520 game is. Kickstarter kind of forces 1634 01:25:31,520 --> 01:25:32,840 people to do that. So it's almost a little bit 1635 01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:34,000 easier. For example, I brought up 1636 01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:35,960 plasmomics Kickstarter, the top of it. 1637 01:25:35,960 --> 01:25:39,200 It says plasmodics mutant freaks in the weird future. 1638 01:25:39,200 --> 01:25:41,920 Underneath that it says in the remnants of the world play in 1639 01:25:41,920 --> 01:25:45,200 The Smithereens get weird in the body and in the mind with the 1640 01:25:45,200 --> 01:25:48,960 post apocalyptic TRPG. That's OK, doesn't say what I 1641 01:25:48,960 --> 01:25:51,680 need though. Right vibe. 1642 01:25:52,200 --> 01:25:55,000 What I like though is when you get down at the bottom here it 1643 01:25:55,000 --> 01:25:57,360 says plasmodics is a tabletop role-playing game of post 1644 01:25:57,360 --> 01:26:00,760 apocalyptic gonzo sci-fi. We're sort of humans, kind of 1645 01:26:00,760 --> 01:26:03,640 animals, mostly robots indefinitely aliens joined hand 1646 01:26:03,880 --> 01:26:07,520 and mutated hand. I know what the game is about 1647 01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:11,680 right in that short sentence. OK, it's post apocalyptic, gonzo 1648 01:26:11,680 --> 01:26:14,440 weird game where a bunch of freaks are going to get together 1649 01:26:14,440 --> 01:26:15,800 and do stuff. Boom. 1650 01:26:15,880 --> 01:26:17,640 That's all I need. That's all I want. 1651 01:26:17,880 --> 01:26:19,960 And can I tell you? You will be shocked when you 1652 01:26:19,960 --> 01:26:22,440 start going through projects and see that no one ever wrote that 1653 01:26:22,440 --> 01:26:25,000 line. What I like even better is a 1654 01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:27,960 line that says not from plasmonics. 1655 01:26:27,960 --> 01:26:33,400 We'll say this is this is Clinton's game a a dice pool, 1656 01:26:34,360 --> 01:26:39,120 sci-fi, post Apocalypse World where two to four players do 1657 01:26:39,120 --> 01:26:41,760 this and do that. Spoilers. 1658 01:26:42,120 --> 01:26:44,320 Ma ma, that's what I want right there. 1659 01:26:44,840 --> 01:26:48,680 Give me the game in one sentence so that I can promote your game 1660 01:26:48,760 --> 01:26:51,040 much more easily. Because I'll tell you what 1661 01:26:51,120 --> 01:26:56,200 attention economy out there is not long and blue sky posts are 1662 01:26:56,200 --> 01:26:58,560 do not have a lot of characters. I can't write your three 1663 01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:00,760 paragraph pitch. Having that one pitch that tells 1664 01:27:00,760 --> 01:27:03,720 me mechanically what it is and vibes always what it is, that's 1665 01:27:03,800 --> 01:27:05,320 what I want to see. Please write one of those. 1666 01:27:06,200 --> 01:27:08,880 And I, I will say counterpoint, but it's not really a 1667 01:27:08,880 --> 01:27:11,480 counterpoint. It's just like what I want and 1668 01:27:11,480 --> 01:27:14,840 what Ryan wants. You can have both put them both 1669 01:27:14,840 --> 01:27:18,800 there because it's very easy to scan a page and see two 1670 01:27:18,800 --> 01:27:21,120 sentences. The one that's like got all the, 1671 01:27:21,200 --> 01:27:25,080 the glam that gets you excited. And then the one that confirms 1672 01:27:25,080 --> 01:27:27,960 to you that this is in fact a thing that I know, right? 1673 01:27:28,360 --> 01:27:30,240 I, I understand what this thing is. 1674 01:27:30,760 --> 01:27:34,440 And of course, again, if you have a press kit, you're going 1675 01:27:34,440 --> 01:27:36,040 to have that right. It's going to be on there 1676 01:27:36,040 --> 01:27:39,680 probably. But it it this is one of the 1677 01:27:39,680 --> 01:27:43,400 ways that you really make your work easy to share and get to 1678 01:27:43,640 --> 01:27:47,680 make it easier for other people to become evangelists for your 1679 01:27:47,680 --> 01:27:51,480 work. Yep. 1680 01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:55,760 All right. We are last section or I think 1681 01:27:55,760 --> 01:28:01,120 it's close to the last section. Yep, it is. 1682 01:28:01,120 --> 01:28:02,960 It's it looks long, but it's not that long. 1683 01:28:02,960 --> 01:28:07,440 And then we can wrap up here. And this is going to be 1684 01:28:07,440 --> 01:28:09,040 interesting because we're going to get both sides of this 1685 01:28:09,040 --> 01:28:12,480 between you and me here. Sure, sure are. 1686 01:28:13,600 --> 01:28:20,880 How to be a guest on a show yeah, yeah, I. 1687 01:28:22,440 --> 01:28:25,640 Kind of want to take the reins very quickly to just say that I 1688 01:28:25,640 --> 01:28:29,120 don't run a show. So I and, and the thing I'm 1689 01:28:29,120 --> 01:28:33,040 worried about all the time when I get invited by awesome people 1690 01:28:33,200 --> 01:28:36,680 to be part of their project for a short stint is I'm like, I 1691 01:28:36,680 --> 01:28:38,920 don't want to be the person that they don't invite back because 1692 01:28:38,920 --> 01:28:41,280 they hate me or that I I made their job harder. 1693 01:28:42,320 --> 01:28:45,640 So I'm this is the kind of the part of the presentation where 1694 01:28:46,120 --> 01:28:48,640 or the show where I'm going to kind of be watching Riot. 1695 01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:51,840 But and I'll say some things that I've tried and I'm kind of 1696 01:28:51,840 --> 01:28:54,920 curious to find out if they're good things, but take it away. 1697 01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:56,600 Ryan. Let how yeah. 1698 01:28:57,280 --> 01:29:00,800 How do we get? How do we have yes, be good? 1699 01:29:01,040 --> 01:29:04,640 How do I become a better guest? You're a fantastic guest, first 1700 01:29:04,640 --> 01:29:08,920 of all. But we're gonna talk about like 1701 01:29:08,920 --> 01:29:12,760 2 big parts of this. One is bad examples of leading 1702 01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:15,000 up to and being part of like a show, right? 1703 01:29:15,000 --> 01:29:18,040 And then we're gonna talk about the etiquette in regards to like 1704 01:29:18,200 --> 01:29:22,440 being on this is physically a podcast because I am a podcast 1705 01:29:22,440 --> 01:29:23,800 host. It could be different if you're 1706 01:29:23,800 --> 01:29:25,920 reaching out for like blog stuff or interviews or whatever. 1707 01:29:25,920 --> 01:29:28,680 But I want to start with some bad examples because we, we 1708 01:29:28,680 --> 01:29:30,080 talked about it earlier kind of with the example. 1709 01:29:30,080 --> 01:29:32,040 We want to do good and bad examples and realize by just 1710 01:29:32,040 --> 01:29:35,160 talking about the bad examples, you know, the inverse is the 1711 01:29:35,160 --> 01:29:38,200 good stuff. So let's talk about bad examples 1712 01:29:39,760 --> 01:29:43,680 or things to know before you get to the show, before I get to the 1713 01:29:43,680 --> 01:29:47,400 bad examples first and foremost. This also goes through emails we 1714 01:29:47,400 --> 01:29:50,920 talked about a little bit before is know what the show is about, 1715 01:29:51,440 --> 01:29:54,240 right. If you're reaching out to ask to 1716 01:29:54,240 --> 01:29:58,960 be on a show, you should know what that show is about. 1717 01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:01,560 That's one thing that when people ask for interviews and 1718 01:30:01,560 --> 01:30:03,880 they don't mention the name of the show, they don't mention our 1719 01:30:03,880 --> 01:30:08,840 names that for me, it's just why am I gonna waste my time 1720 01:30:08,920 --> 01:30:11,240 interviewing you if you don't know if you don't know who the 1721 01:30:11,240 --> 01:30:13,960 fuck I am, right? Like I do this for fun. 1722 01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:15,840 And again, some of this, some of the stuff is a little bit 1723 01:30:15,840 --> 01:30:19,920 different because we're we're not monetized. 1724 01:30:20,520 --> 01:30:22,720 I don't feel the need to generate content or stuff like 1725 01:30:22,720 --> 01:30:25,280 that. I will happily say no to a big 1726 01:30:25,280 --> 01:30:27,680 creator that might promote us a bunch if I don't like them or 1727 01:30:27,680 --> 01:30:29,600 don't care for the way that we interacted. 1728 01:30:30,080 --> 01:30:31,200 I'm not saying that other people won't. 1729 01:30:31,200 --> 01:30:33,320 I'm saying that like some of my views are a little different 1730 01:30:33,320 --> 01:30:36,400 because again, we're not we're not monetized. 1731 01:30:36,400 --> 01:30:38,840 I do whatever the fuck I want, whenever I want, and I don't 1732 01:30:39,240 --> 01:30:43,000 anything. So know what the show was about. 1733 01:30:43,080 --> 01:30:45,200 Watch a couple episodes before you go on it. 1734 01:30:45,520 --> 01:30:47,160 If you're going to be interviewed, watch an interview 1735 01:30:47,160 --> 01:30:49,360 from the host so you can kind of get like the gist of what's 1736 01:30:49,360 --> 01:30:59,240 going on, right? You wrote a couple things here. 1737 01:30:59,360 --> 01:31:02,200 You wrote making the show harder to run or not bringing yourself 1738 01:31:02,800 --> 01:31:05,120 and your work to the show. Those are the things that you 1739 01:31:05,120 --> 01:31:05,720 wrote. So what? 1740 01:31:05,720 --> 01:31:07,080 Did you do by those? Yeah. 1741 01:31:07,080 --> 01:31:11,680 So don't make the show hard to run that it's it's not it's not 1742 01:31:11,680 --> 01:31:13,760 easy. And as Ryan has already said, 1743 01:31:13,760 --> 01:31:15,320 he's only got so many spoons, right. 1744 01:31:15,320 --> 01:31:17,880 So don't make him spend more spoons than he has allocated to 1745 01:31:17,880 --> 01:31:20,720 the project. And one, there's a couple ways 1746 01:31:20,720 --> 01:31:25,920 you can do that, but like the the big one is just like have 1747 01:31:25,920 --> 01:31:29,600 your technology working, double check everything. 1748 01:31:29,600 --> 01:31:32,680 Like there's a lot of stuff here that's going to get into like, 1749 01:31:32,680 --> 01:31:34,960 you know, sort of etiquette and things like that are examples of 1750 01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:36,840 issues that I know Ryan's going to get into. 1751 01:31:36,840 --> 01:31:39,440 But that I mean, that's this broad stroke of things as you 1752 01:31:39,440 --> 01:31:43,040 just want to make sure that you are not part of the problem. 1753 01:31:44,520 --> 01:31:47,960 The other one is this is this thing that you need to do is 1754 01:31:47,960 --> 01:31:50,360 bring yourself and your work to the show. 1755 01:31:50,360 --> 01:31:54,520 If the person if someone's inviting you onto the show, they 1756 01:31:54,600 --> 01:31:58,200 want you for whatever you are right. 1757 01:31:58,520 --> 01:32:06,040 I am a ex eddies judge, layout, graphic design, design writing 1758 01:32:06,080 --> 01:32:07,840 freak. That is what the thing I'm into. 1759 01:32:08,240 --> 01:32:11,240 If I go on to a show and then people ask me those questions 1760 01:32:11,240 --> 01:32:15,040 and I say, I don't want to talk about that or I don't freely 1761 01:32:15,040 --> 01:32:17,320 give away that kind of stuff that it's like, OK, well, then 1762 01:32:17,320 --> 01:32:19,040 why did they invite you on, right? 1763 01:32:19,680 --> 01:32:23,920 So if you, if your relationship to RPGs is that you are the 1764 01:32:25,200 --> 01:32:28,720 liberal horror guy who likes underwater adventures or 1765 01:32:28,720 --> 01:32:31,880 scenarios only, and then you say that you don't want to talk 1766 01:32:31,880 --> 01:32:35,520 about any of that, you're withholding the one thing that 1767 01:32:35,520 --> 01:32:39,560 that that that you were more or less implicitly expected to 1768 01:32:39,560 --> 01:32:43,600 bring to the show, right? So that that's the how you be a 1769 01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:47,920 good guest, be the person that they invited onto the show. 1770 01:32:48,240 --> 01:32:50,480 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I completely agree with 1771 01:32:50,480 --> 01:32:51,480 that. Luckily, I don't. 1772 01:32:51,840 --> 01:32:53,680 I haven't really encountered anything like that. 1773 01:32:53,680 --> 01:32:55,480 I mean, we're also pretty picky with the beauty of the invite on 1774 01:32:55,480 --> 01:32:58,760 the show. I'm as a prolific listener of 1775 01:32:58,760 --> 01:33:01,040 shows. I've had people, I've listened 1776 01:33:01,040 --> 01:33:03,280 to people get on a show and I'm like, oh, I can't wait to hear 1777 01:33:03,280 --> 01:33:05,440 what they're gonna say. And then they'd just be kind of 1778 01:33:05,440 --> 01:33:09,400 like sticks in the mud. It hasn't happened on the the 1779 01:33:09,400 --> 01:33:11,720 Weekly Scroll. It hasn't happened on a lot. 1780 01:33:11,720 --> 01:33:13,600 I'll say there's been, I would say there's been two or three 1781 01:33:13,600 --> 01:33:16,200 times where I'm just like trying to drag stuff out of people. 1782 01:33:17,600 --> 01:33:21,040 But, but, but I agree with you now that you're saying it that 1783 01:33:21,040 --> 01:33:23,440 way, yes, I, I, I will say there has been one or two. 1784 01:33:23,600 --> 01:33:26,000 Luckily, luckily though, for the most part, our interviews have 1785 01:33:26,000 --> 01:33:28,720 been really good, except for all the issues that we're going to 1786 01:33:28,720 --> 01:33:32,640 talk about here. So I'll say how did you guest on 1787 01:33:32,640 --> 01:33:35,400 the show? I'll get into etiquette stuff 1788 01:33:35,400 --> 01:33:36,440 with the reaching out and stuff like that. 1789 01:33:36,440 --> 01:33:38,160 Let me just give you some bad examples, right? 1790 01:33:38,160 --> 01:33:41,640 Because then you can again, use critical thinking and realize 1791 01:33:41,640 --> 01:33:47,960 not to do this right. So when this is all stuff that's 1792 01:33:47,960 --> 01:33:50,560 happened on our show, so I'll just run through the list of 1793 01:33:50,560 --> 01:33:53,960 things, right? So first we've had someone, 1794 01:33:54,000 --> 01:33:57,520 we've had multiple people, multiple people reach out to us 1795 01:33:57,520 --> 01:34:02,040 about being on the show. And I will e-mail back and say 1796 01:34:02,040 --> 01:34:04,280 sure, hey, let's talk whatever. And then I will never hear from 1797 01:34:04,280 --> 01:34:06,760 them ever again. OK, that's fine. 1798 01:34:06,760 --> 01:34:09,080 You didn't really want to be on the show, whatever going into 1799 01:34:09,080 --> 01:34:14,200 the bad press folder. And then we've had people where 1800 01:34:14,200 --> 01:34:18,240 they reach out, we say sure, start talking about scheduling, 1801 01:34:18,640 --> 01:34:21,400 and then ghost in the middle of the scheduling talk, never hear 1802 01:34:21,400 --> 01:34:24,200 from them again. That's happened multiple times. 1803 01:34:27,920 --> 01:34:30,360 If you're no longer interested or don't have the time to do it, 1804 01:34:30,360 --> 01:34:35,360 just send a message that says, hey, cool, a a side a side note 1805 01:34:35,360 --> 01:34:37,000 for the bad press thing. One of the things I want to talk 1806 01:34:37,000 --> 01:34:39,960 about more with the e-mail bit I've had times where people have 1807 01:34:40,240 --> 01:34:42,280 sent an interview request and I just say, hey, we're not really 1808 01:34:42,280 --> 01:34:44,400 doing right now. We're booked out and I never 1809 01:34:44,400 --> 01:34:45,640 hear from them. OK, that's fine. 1810 01:34:45,840 --> 01:34:49,200 What I, what I do appreciate and then what I will be more likely 1811 01:34:49,200 --> 01:34:51,320 to respond in the future is we'll get emails where they say, 1812 01:34:51,320 --> 01:34:53,760 hey, we'd love to come on and we say, hey, we're not really doing 1813 01:34:53,760 --> 01:34:55,560 that right now. And they say, hey, no problem, 1814 01:34:55,560 --> 01:34:58,000 maybe sometime in the future. That's fucking great. 1815 01:34:58,000 --> 01:35:02,040 Following up, if we say, hey, we're taking a break, it gets 1816 01:35:02,040 --> 01:35:03,800 the end of the year. Hunter's super busy. 1817 01:35:04,120 --> 01:35:07,280 We've had stuff come up and you actually responding positively, 1818 01:35:07,280 --> 01:35:09,800 like no worries, whatever. That's fucking great. 1819 01:35:10,360 --> 01:35:14,120 So responding then ghosting in the middle of scheduling the 1820 01:35:14,120 --> 01:35:17,120 next one. I've had multiple times where 1821 01:35:17,120 --> 01:35:19,320 I've just cancelled the interviews because after we 1822 01:35:19,320 --> 01:35:21,960 scheduled it and I was asking them things about like, hey, 1823 01:35:21,960 --> 01:35:25,080 like who's gonna be on or, you know, this or that or blah, 1824 01:35:25,080 --> 01:35:27,200 blah, blah. They were like super rude either 1825 01:35:27,200 --> 01:35:29,520 in Discord or in messages and be like, well, I think you're doing 1826 01:35:29,520 --> 01:35:31,200 this and da, da, da, da. And I think you mean this. 1827 01:35:31,200 --> 01:35:33,200 And I'm like, no, I actually was just asking that. 1828 01:35:33,640 --> 01:35:37,280 And then I was like, I that's, I'm not at this point. 1829 01:35:37,280 --> 01:35:39,720 I don't feel good about this and I'm not wasting my fucking time. 1830 01:35:39,800 --> 01:35:40,960 Again. This is the hobby for me. 1831 01:35:41,600 --> 01:35:45,160 Yeah, I'm gonna if, if we're not having a good time, I'll just 1832 01:35:45,160 --> 01:35:48,120 cancel the fucking interview. And that's happened multiple 1833 01:35:48,120 --> 01:35:48,840 times. So like. 1834 01:35:48,840 --> 01:35:50,320 This, this one's beyond the pale for me. 1835 01:35:50,320 --> 01:35:52,560 I don't. I don't understand how you'd why 1836 01:35:52,560 --> 01:35:54,880 you would be rude, but it happens. 1837 01:35:55,480 --> 01:35:56,440 It does. It's. 1838 01:35:56,440 --> 01:35:57,880 Crazy. I try not to be that person who 1839 01:35:57,880 --> 01:36:01,120 does make it happen. Yeah, I mean, it's not hard. 1840 01:36:01,120 --> 01:36:03,480 And listen, here's the thing too is I know I can sometimes be a 1841 01:36:03,480 --> 01:36:04,560 lot. I get super excited for 1842 01:36:04,560 --> 01:36:08,360 interviews I make, especially for APS. 1843 01:36:08,680 --> 01:36:11,760 I make a full fucking overlay and everything for, for 1844 01:36:11,760 --> 01:36:13,000 everything. And sometimes I'll e-mail a 1845 01:36:13,000 --> 01:36:15,120 bunch being like, Hey, here's a draft, here's a draft. 1846 01:36:15,120 --> 01:36:17,400 Here's the thing, whatever. If you get a bunch of emails, 1847 01:36:17,400 --> 01:36:19,040 you can just say, Hey, whatever you do is cool. 1848 01:36:19,040 --> 01:36:20,480 Like, oh, I'll be there on the day. 1849 01:36:20,680 --> 01:36:22,920 But if, if I'm obviously like super excited about doing a 1850 01:36:22,920 --> 01:36:26,080 thing and sending you a bunch, like I'm sorry, like if that's 1851 01:36:26,480 --> 01:36:30,040 too much, too much excitement for your projects, maybe be on a 1852 01:36:30,040 --> 01:36:32,160 different podcast then what's next? 1853 01:36:32,160 --> 01:36:34,440 No showing. We've had numerous people where 1854 01:36:34,440 --> 01:36:39,360 we have interviewed or set up the interview. 1855 01:36:39,600 --> 01:36:45,120 I'm sitting here at my desk, Zoom message has been the link 1856 01:36:45,120 --> 01:36:49,320 to join has been sent out and I'm sitting here waiting and 1857 01:36:49,320 --> 01:36:52,440 waiting and waiting and waiting and then just never hear from 1858 01:36:52,440 --> 01:36:54,160 them again. That has happened. 1859 01:36:54,160 --> 01:36:57,200 That has happened. Somehow you have another example 1860 01:36:57,200 --> 01:37:00,160 that's even worse. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 1861 01:37:01,800 --> 01:37:05,240 there was. We also had one. 1862 01:37:05,240 --> 01:37:06,760 I'll do a middle example that was on here. 1863 01:37:06,960 --> 01:37:09,760 Someone who showed up 30 minutes late in here. 1864 01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:12,560 Listen late. If you know anything about the 1865 01:37:12,560 --> 01:37:15,840 weekly scroll, if we're 15 minutes late, we're on time. 1866 01:37:16,200 --> 01:37:22,160 Late doesn't bother me, right? 30 minutes late with no, not 1867 01:37:22,160 --> 01:37:23,560 reaching out. Now, I'm actually not saying 1868 01:37:23,560 --> 01:37:26,040 going to be late. When they finally do hop in, 1869 01:37:26,840 --> 01:37:28,320 they're like, all right, let's get going. 1870 01:37:28,360 --> 01:37:31,920 Come on. And I'm like, literally, I'm not 1871 01:37:31,920 --> 01:37:33,560 kidding. Literally no apology. 1872 01:37:33,800 --> 01:37:35,480 No, like, Oh my God, I'm so sorry. 1873 01:37:35,480 --> 01:37:37,280 This is what happened. Da da da literally jumped and 1874 01:37:37,280 --> 01:37:39,840 acted like it was my fault that somehow I was early or 1875 01:37:39,840 --> 01:37:43,040 something. And then and then whatever. 1876 01:37:43,040 --> 01:37:44,560 And I'm like, all right, fine, we'll just do the interview. 1877 01:37:44,560 --> 01:37:45,960 But I'm never talking to this person again. 1878 01:37:46,120 --> 01:37:50,440 I see this person all the time out in spaces and I will never 1879 01:37:50,440 --> 01:37:53,240 like, no, yeah, I hold grudges. I can tell you that right now. 1880 01:37:53,280 --> 01:37:55,240 Unsurprising to anyone that listens to the show. 1881 01:37:55,840 --> 01:37:58,000 The next one, that was even even worse. 1882 01:37:58,480 --> 01:38:03,720 We've had people no show and then thankfully say, Oh my God, 1883 01:38:03,840 --> 01:38:08,480 XY and Z happened, I'm so sorry. And I'm like, no worries, let's 1884 01:38:08,480 --> 01:38:11,320 set it up again. Cool win works for you. 1885 01:38:12,040 --> 01:38:15,560 How about here? And then I never hear from them 1886 01:38:15,560 --> 01:38:19,640 again. So no showed and then ghosted 1887 01:38:19,640 --> 01:38:24,000 during the rescheduling. And then we've also had an 1888 01:38:24,000 --> 01:38:26,240 example where someone came on the show we were going to do a 1889 01:38:26,240 --> 01:38:31,680 collab with and literally we were going to be on their show 1890 01:38:31,840 --> 01:38:35,920 like the following day after we had already started pre 1891 01:38:35,920 --> 01:38:38,520 streaming. Like the it's running the start 1892 01:38:38,520 --> 01:38:39,520 screen. Da da, da, da, da. 1893 01:38:39,720 --> 01:38:42,040 They go, oh, we're are we in pre stream? 1894 01:38:42,040 --> 01:38:42,880 Cool. Sorry. 1895 01:38:42,880 --> 01:38:45,080 By the way, you're not going to be able to come up on the show 1896 01:38:45,080 --> 01:38:46,160 tomorrow. Some stuff came up. 1897 01:38:48,960 --> 01:38:52,560 Yeah. OK, and then messaged a couple 1898 01:38:52,560 --> 01:38:55,120 days later, hey, you know, maybe we can try to schedule or 1899 01:38:55,120 --> 01:38:56,520 whatever. And I'm like, sure, let me talk 1900 01:38:56,520 --> 01:38:59,800 to Hunter, whatever. Never hear from the man if in 1901 01:38:59,800 --> 01:39:04,080 that respect, right? Don't like fake out a collab. 1902 01:39:04,080 --> 01:39:05,440 Like what? What really bothered me about 1903 01:39:05,440 --> 01:39:09,400 that was literally waited until we were streaming as if we would 1904 01:39:09,400 --> 01:39:12,440 be like we would cancel on them 5 minutes before if we weren't 1905 01:39:12,440 --> 01:39:15,240 streaming. That one really kind of drove me 1906 01:39:15,240 --> 01:39:17,160 a little bit nuts. So those are bad things to not 1907 01:39:17,160 --> 01:39:18,880 do. A lot of it comes back to just 1908 01:39:18,880 --> 01:39:21,400 be a decent human being, right? Like I think that's been. 1909 01:39:22,440 --> 01:39:25,400 And I, you know, I, I can see instances where like maybe 1910 01:39:25,400 --> 01:39:28,760 you're someone who is, you know, you got things going on in your 1911 01:39:28,760 --> 01:39:31,160 life or like it's, it's just chaotic. 1912 01:39:31,600 --> 01:39:34,320 And I think one of the things that you need to, and this is 1913 01:39:34,320 --> 01:39:36,640 going to be hard. I mean, this is part of life. 1914 01:39:38,440 --> 01:39:41,560 We all have issues. It is also our responsibility to 1915 01:39:41,560 --> 01:39:43,800 handle those issues and not make them other people's issues. 1916 01:39:44,040 --> 01:39:46,760 So like a big thing is like, if you're going to collaborate with 1917 01:39:46,760 --> 01:39:52,160 people, try your best to be honest with yourself and ask 1918 01:39:52,160 --> 01:39:54,640 yourself if you can actually do that collaboration. 1919 01:39:54,640 --> 01:39:55,960 And this is something I had to learn. 1920 01:39:55,960 --> 01:39:57,720 I'm not very good at it and I apologize. 1921 01:39:57,720 --> 01:40:01,440 This is me officially confessing and apologizing on air where I 1922 01:40:01,440 --> 01:40:04,520 have wanted to. The soul is willing, but the 1923 01:40:04,520 --> 01:40:07,680 body is not. And I've gotten to the point now 1924 01:40:07,680 --> 01:40:12,520 where like I say, no 99% of the time on like any collaboration 1925 01:40:12,520 --> 01:40:15,080 idea because it sounds awesome and I'm really excited by it. 1926 01:40:15,080 --> 01:40:17,960 But I also value that relationship more than the 1927 01:40:18,080 --> 01:40:20,640 possible potential that other project. 1928 01:40:20,640 --> 01:40:23,080 And I know that sometimes I'm too stressed. 1929 01:40:23,240 --> 01:40:24,720 I got too many other things going on. 1930 01:40:24,880 --> 01:40:29,240 I have other obligations and I just can't, I can't even, it's 1931 01:40:29,240 --> 01:40:32,640 not even that I can, I can't commit to the the bare minimum. 1932 01:40:33,160 --> 01:40:35,400 I want to, you want to commit not just the bare minimum, but 1933 01:40:35,400 --> 01:40:39,440 also an allowance above that, right? 1934 01:40:39,440 --> 01:40:42,360 So like if someone says like, hey, I want to do a show with 1935 01:40:42,360 --> 01:40:46,560 you, don't just when you say yes, you're not, don't go in 1936 01:40:46,560 --> 01:40:50,040 there thinking to yourself like, oh, I'm saying yes to a 2 hour 1937 01:40:50,040 --> 01:40:52,280 show. Tell yourself that, Hey, if I 1938 01:40:52,280 --> 01:40:57,280 say yeses, I'm saying yes to a 2 hour show, to social posts an 1939 01:40:57,280 --> 01:41:00,400 hour before, an hour after and multiple messages. 1940 01:41:00,560 --> 01:41:02,760 Assume that there's more that's being asked of you in the 1941 01:41:02,760 --> 01:41:04,560 collaboration because it probably is. 1942 01:41:05,960 --> 01:41:08,600 You want to be an A+ collaborator. 1943 01:41:08,960 --> 01:41:13,240 So assume always that you are saying yes or no to being an A+ 1944 01:41:13,240 --> 01:41:14,800 collaborator. Not just any collaborate with 1945 01:41:14,800 --> 01:41:17,160 the best collaborator. And if you can't commit to that 1946 01:41:17,440 --> 01:41:20,400 and just say no and you can be honest, you know, I, I'm sorry, 1947 01:41:20,400 --> 01:41:22,720 I'm too busy. I'm, I'm have too much of my 1948 01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:24,960 plate. And you can even in this, the 1949 01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:26,760 other thing, this goes back to the no showing thing. 1950 01:41:27,600 --> 01:41:29,520 You can make that realization later. 1951 01:41:30,160 --> 01:41:32,880 And I think it's better to just say it straight like, hey, I 1952 01:41:32,880 --> 01:41:35,760 committed to this. I realize now that I can't, and 1953 01:41:35,760 --> 01:41:37,640 I'm sorry. That's, I mean, that's The thing 1954 01:41:37,640 --> 01:41:41,600 is with the people that didn't show up and apologize later, I 1955 01:41:41,600 --> 01:41:43,120 was like, oh dope. Like shit happens. 1956 01:41:43,120 --> 01:41:46,360 It's not a big fucking deal. It's it's communication. 1957 01:41:46,360 --> 01:41:48,160 I mean, this is the core of like all relationships, right? 1958 01:41:48,160 --> 01:41:51,280 It's just communicate. So if you tell me 5 minutes 1959 01:41:51,280 --> 01:41:54,040 before you're supposed to show up, hey bro, I'm sorry, I do not 1960 01:41:54,040 --> 01:41:56,800 have the spoon today. I got anxiety or this happened 1961 01:41:56,800 --> 01:41:59,240 or my dog did that or whatever. If you shoot me a message, I'm 1962 01:41:59,240 --> 01:42:01,320 just going to be like, OK, cool, we'll reschedule. 1963 01:42:01,320 --> 01:42:05,400 Not a big deal, right? It's the, it's the ghosting that 1964 01:42:05,400 --> 01:42:06,880 really drives me nuts. Even if we're in the middle of 1965 01:42:06,880 --> 01:42:08,440 scheduling, if you're just like, actually, you know what? 1966 01:42:08,440 --> 01:42:09,680 I just don't think I have the time for this. 1967 01:42:10,200 --> 01:42:12,400 Cool, maybe sometime in the future, but I can tell you right 1968 01:42:12,400 --> 01:42:14,960 now, if you ghosted me in scheduling, I will never try to 1969 01:42:14,960 --> 01:42:17,280 have you on the show again. And I can also tell you a 1970 01:42:17,280 --> 01:42:20,840 podcast hosts talk to each other, creators talk to each 1971 01:42:20,840 --> 01:42:22,800 other. Like I know people that have had 1972 01:42:22,800 --> 01:42:24,120 bad experiences with other people. 1973 01:42:24,120 --> 01:42:28,400 I know too much about the bad experiences that people that are 1974 01:42:28,400 --> 01:42:30,720 big in this space or small people that have had bad 1975 01:42:30,720 --> 01:42:32,720 experiences. The big people in this space. 1976 01:42:33,000 --> 01:42:34,720 I know way too much. It's half the reason this space 1977 01:42:34,720 --> 01:42:37,520 is burning me out. But people talk like people. 1978 01:42:37,520 --> 01:42:40,440 If you give someone a bad experience, it's not in a 1979 01:42:40,440 --> 01:42:42,360 bubble. It is a very small space. 1980 01:42:43,000 --> 01:42:48,320 So again, just communicate and if you need to apologize and 1981 01:42:48,320 --> 01:42:50,240 move on, it's not that big a deal anyway. 1982 01:42:50,280 --> 01:42:52,880 OK, so etiquette in regards to being on a podcast. 1983 01:42:52,880 --> 01:42:56,400 So I think #1 is kind of me and #2 is kind of you, right? 1984 01:42:56,680 --> 01:42:57,640 And. Then we'll just say so. 1985 01:42:58,120 --> 01:43:01,560 Yeah, so how to prepare to be on a podcast, right? 1986 01:43:02,120 --> 01:43:04,360 We've talked about a lot of this stuff before, how a press kit 1987 01:43:05,760 --> 01:43:10,920 send it and Oh my God. Sorry I'm trying to trying to 1988 01:43:10,920 --> 01:43:14,720 manage this doc and I am just messing it up. 1989 01:43:14,720 --> 01:43:17,680 Oh, what you should do is like manage the entire stream and the 1990 01:43:17,680 --> 01:43:19,320 chat and the and the doc at the same. 1991 01:43:19,320 --> 01:43:21,040 Time, right? This is why I'm a guest. 1992 01:43:22,240 --> 01:43:25,560 I'm not capable of it. So have a press kit, send it out 1993 01:43:25,560 --> 01:43:28,680 when you when you e-mail a person, we've already talked 1994 01:43:28,680 --> 01:43:31,480 about it. e-mail like a human being, ask for what you want, 1995 01:43:31,800 --> 01:43:34,320 send a press kit, send all the things you need in that press 1996 01:43:34,320 --> 01:43:35,720 kit. Please have your art assets. 1997 01:43:36,600 --> 01:43:39,120 I like to build overlays. I like to have logos and stuff. 1998 01:43:39,200 --> 01:43:41,200 Well, let's talk about art assets real quick. 1999 01:43:41,400 --> 01:43:45,200 png.jpegpng.jpg transparent background. 2000 01:43:45,480 --> 01:43:48,760 Black and white, right? People will send us stuff in 2001 01:43:48,760 --> 01:43:52,040 black all the time. Everything on our on our channel 2002 01:43:52,040 --> 01:43:55,880 is got a black background. Send me one that's transparent 2003 01:43:56,040 --> 01:43:57,960 with white on it, like I'll fix it. 2004 01:43:57,960 --> 01:44:03,000 You know how good I've gotten at Illustrator and and Canva and 2005 01:44:03,000 --> 01:44:06,480 stuff like that because I've had to RIP logos off of docs because 2006 01:44:06,480 --> 01:44:09,200 people won't send me one or there's not one in the press kit 2007 01:44:09,400 --> 01:44:11,840 and I would like to put their logo on the overlay or something 2008 01:44:11,840 --> 01:44:14,040 like that. Like I've gotten really damn 2009 01:44:14,040 --> 01:44:17,800 good at ripping fucking making vector files out of shit ripped 2010 01:44:17,800 --> 01:44:21,640 off of an embedded PDF because you can't just send a fucking 2011 01:44:21,640 --> 01:44:23,840 logo. And I'll tell you right now, the 2012 01:44:23,840 --> 01:44:27,480 number of logos I've gotten that are like low res jpegs is crazy. 2013 01:44:27,480 --> 01:44:30,840 You're making a game. Get SVG, get a vector file or 2014 01:44:30,840 --> 01:44:34,640 get like a high res PD PNG. Put that in your press kit 2015 01:44:35,160 --> 01:44:38,240 please. Like in multiple colors, with, 2016 01:44:38,360 --> 01:44:41,120 with and without background, please. 2017 01:44:41,880 --> 01:44:43,400 Tag lines. We've talked about that already. 2018 01:44:43,560 --> 01:44:45,480 Have one. I love to throw it into the 2019 01:44:45,520 --> 01:44:47,520 promotional material. If you have one in your press 2020 01:44:47,520 --> 01:44:50,360 kit, that's even better. And Clayton talked to us a 2021 01:44:50,360 --> 01:44:53,200 little bit earlier. Test your audio visual forehand. 2022 01:44:53,200 --> 01:44:55,800 The number of people that hop in and realize that the Internet 2023 01:44:55,800 --> 01:44:59,080 does not work well enough for streaming, That one's kind of 2024 01:44:59,080 --> 01:45:00,320 fine. That's happened multiple times. 2025 01:45:00,400 --> 01:45:03,200 I will actually edit podcasts If we're chopping in and out, 2026 01:45:03,240 --> 01:45:05,320 that's totally fine. I understand that some parts of 2027 01:45:05,320 --> 01:45:06,560 the world do not have great Internet. 2028 01:45:07,040 --> 01:45:09,640 It's fine. But please have your mic plugged 2029 01:45:09,640 --> 01:45:12,280 in and realize that you're using the right one that you're not 2030 01:45:12,280 --> 01:45:14,760 using your your headphone mic that you're using the mic that's 2031 01:45:14,760 --> 01:45:16,760 in front of you. Test your audio. 2032 01:45:16,760 --> 01:45:18,840 Make sure that you're actually able to receive audio. 2033 01:45:19,440 --> 01:45:21,640 Yes, we will do that a little bit before the stream starts. 2034 01:45:21,960 --> 01:45:25,240 But if you have to re download half of your AV stuff because 2035 01:45:25,240 --> 01:45:27,640 you didn't check it before we hopped into the zoom episode, we 2036 01:45:27,640 --> 01:45:31,000 will be even later. So at least make sure that you 2037 01:45:31,000 --> 01:45:33,040 can plug stuff in. I don't care. 2038 01:45:33,040 --> 01:45:35,160 I personally don't care about the quality of it at all. 2039 01:45:35,160 --> 01:45:39,000 If you're using Airpods with a mic on and it sounds like shit, 2040 01:45:39,440 --> 01:45:41,360 I don't care. The listeners might, I don't 2041 01:45:41,360 --> 01:45:44,200 care. Just make sure it works. 2042 01:45:44,320 --> 01:45:45,560 Just give me something to work with. 2043 01:45:47,360 --> 01:45:50,200 And that's that's kind of like getting up and going with a 2044 01:45:50,200 --> 01:45:53,040 podcast and then just again, be a human being when we're 2045 01:45:53,040 --> 01:45:54,560 talking. Yeah. 2046 01:45:55,440 --> 01:45:56,600 All right. And here's the things that I'm 2047 01:45:56,600 --> 01:46:00,520 trying to get better at. The first one is striking a 2048 01:46:00,520 --> 01:46:02,120 balance between talking and listening. 2049 01:46:02,160 --> 01:46:06,000 I, I have to get better at this. I'm everyone can get better at 2050 01:46:06,000 --> 01:46:09,040 this. Knowing when it is natural and 2051 01:46:09,040 --> 01:46:12,240 OK to interrupt or interject. And then also knowing when you 2052 01:46:12,240 --> 01:46:15,040 just going to sit perfectly still and let that person just 2053 01:46:15,040 --> 01:46:19,160 go for it again, something I'm still working on. 2054 01:46:19,160 --> 01:46:20,840 The other one is memorizing names and. 2055 01:46:21,000 --> 01:46:23,000 Real quick, I know I'm terrible at that. 2056 01:46:23,000 --> 01:46:26,760 My ADHD and excitement. I and I, me and Hunter, they're 2057 01:46:26,760 --> 01:46:30,360 constantly like jumping over people and I know that I do it 2058 01:46:30,360 --> 01:46:33,360 to guests. I literally have like notes for 2059 01:46:33,360 --> 01:46:35,520 myself not to. But sometimes the ADHD and the 2060 01:46:35,520 --> 01:46:40,000 excitement, I know I talk over you a bunch and I apologize. 2061 01:46:40,360 --> 01:46:42,720 I'm 40 years old. It's not changing now, you know. 2062 01:46:42,960 --> 01:46:45,600 Yeah, no, I, I get it. And I, I think really what it is 2063 01:46:45,600 --> 01:46:48,640 is it's just like, because I think it can go one of two ways, 2064 01:46:48,640 --> 01:46:53,360 either because I've been on a couple, honestly, like I really 2065 01:46:53,360 --> 01:46:55,680 appreciate you bringing me on the show because I'm treating it 2066 01:46:55,680 --> 01:46:58,040 a lot like practice. You know, I'm getting better at 2067 01:46:58,040 --> 01:47:00,720 being on podcast because I'm getting invited to some of them. 2068 01:47:01,240 --> 01:47:04,280 But like, the first thing I did was like, I was so nervous to 2069 01:47:04,280 --> 01:47:05,840 talk at all that I didn't talk enough. 2070 01:47:06,280 --> 01:47:09,600 And so it was kind of like just having like a a little sound 2071 01:47:09,600 --> 01:47:13,320 board that would go, yeah, cool, instead of having anything to 2072 01:47:13,320 --> 01:47:15,800 actually say. And then the second thing I've 2073 01:47:15,800 --> 01:47:19,000 done in the past is I would talk too much because I wanted to put 2074 01:47:19,000 --> 01:47:21,640 on a good show for everybody. So then I became less like 2075 01:47:21,640 --> 01:47:24,760 myself and more like a showman, which is not what they're asking 2076 01:47:24,760 --> 01:47:27,640 for. So that's the the striking, the 2077 01:47:27,640 --> 01:47:28,960 balancing. The other thing is just 2078 01:47:28,960 --> 01:47:32,200 memorizing names and references beforehand, or in my case, 2079 01:47:32,400 --> 01:47:35,120 writing it down in a notebook and then having it next to you 2080 01:47:35,120 --> 01:47:38,960 during the podcast. So, you know, showing a little 2081 01:47:38,960 --> 01:47:41,760 bit of how the sausage was made. We had obviously had a Google 2082 01:47:41,760 --> 01:47:44,440 doc where we put a bunch of people's names and the people we 2083 01:47:44,440 --> 01:47:46,560 want to talk about bring up and all that good stuff. 2084 01:47:46,560 --> 01:47:50,920 And we made that together. But also I have just a list next 2085 01:47:50,920 --> 01:47:53,360 to me where I like, and this is this is where we're getting a na 2086 01:47:53,360 --> 01:47:55,240 gritty where it's like I'm putting down people's names. 2087 01:47:55,400 --> 01:47:57,800 I'm writing down how to pronounce them if I can, if I 2088 01:47:57,800 --> 01:48:00,720 know the pronunciation already, I'm putting down their pronouns. 2089 01:48:00,720 --> 01:48:04,120 I'm trying to be as good as I can at that stuff because it's 2090 01:48:04,120 --> 01:48:06,640 all going to fall apart as soon as I get a little stressed out. 2091 01:48:07,080 --> 01:48:09,360 And Ryan, for all those in podcast land, Ryan is now 2092 01:48:09,360 --> 01:48:14,040 pulling up a frankly stress inducing amount of post it notes 2093 01:48:14,880 --> 01:48:16,360 that all have people's names on them. 2094 01:48:16,360 --> 01:48:18,920 So. That notes and just in general 2095 01:48:19,800 --> 01:48:21,560 little sausages made for me and bits. 2096 01:48:24,200 --> 01:48:26,760 One thing that I, I'm, I'm trying to get as good as 2097 01:48:26,760 --> 01:48:29,040 possible with is people's pronouns. 2098 01:48:29,080 --> 01:48:31,440 Obviously, you know, people should be respected for the 2099 01:48:31,440 --> 01:48:33,040 pronouns, stuff like that. But sometimes it's hard to 2100 01:48:33,040 --> 01:48:35,120 remember. So what I will literally do on 2101 01:48:35,120 --> 01:48:39,280 stream is I will write a post it note with their pronouns and 2102 01:48:39,280 --> 01:48:42,280 stick it on my computer monitor next to them so I can be as 2103 01:48:42,280 --> 01:48:45,560 respectful as possible to remember and to try not to flub 2104 01:48:45,720 --> 01:48:47,840 the few editings that I have done in the past. 2105 01:48:47,840 --> 01:48:51,600 I've actually gone in and taken out some things that I 2106 01:48:52,000 --> 01:48:54,880 unintentionally might have. They have used wrong pronoun or 2107 01:48:54,880 --> 01:48:56,640 used wrong name that they didn't want to use or something like 2108 01:48:56,640 --> 01:48:58,720 that. And people just said, Hey, could 2109 01:48:58,720 --> 01:49:00,880 you please not have that? I was like, abso fucking lutely. 2110 01:49:00,880 --> 01:49:02,040 I'm sorry. I time stamped it. 2111 01:49:02,040 --> 01:49:04,800 I took it out, but to remember that, to remember the names of 2112 01:49:04,800 --> 01:49:07,520 the go by, to remember pronunciations of names I have 2113 01:49:07,520 --> 01:49:10,120 written up phonetically on post it notes and literally stuck it 2114 01:49:10,120 --> 01:49:12,720 to my monitor. When we do interviews on the 2115 01:49:12,720 --> 01:49:15,800 show, we I don't I don't come in with questions. 2116 01:49:15,800 --> 01:49:17,360 I want to be as conversational as possible. 2117 01:49:17,560 --> 01:49:20,720 So what I do a lot is I have a little board here. 2118 01:49:20,720 --> 01:49:23,720 I have a post it note and I have a pin and in order to try not 2119 01:49:23,720 --> 01:49:27,320 to, to interrupt people, I will take notes as they're talking. 2120 01:49:27,320 --> 01:49:30,400 And then at that point where it's good to hop back in, I'll 2121 01:49:30,400 --> 01:49:33,360 be like, oh, let me by the way, you said this 5 minutes ago. 2122 01:49:33,360 --> 01:49:36,320 Let's talk about that. That's completely fine. 2123 01:49:36,320 --> 01:49:39,240 And one of the things you talked about with striking a balance of 2124 01:49:39,240 --> 01:49:42,840 things too, is just ask, just ask what that balance is. 2125 01:49:42,840 --> 01:49:45,920 Because one of the things that we say when we're pitching, like 2126 01:49:45,960 --> 01:49:48,960 having a guess on, it's like the more you talk, the better. 2127 01:49:48,960 --> 01:49:52,200 If I ask you a question and you go on a 10 minute rant, I am so 2128 01:49:52,200 --> 01:49:54,600 happy because I want your passion about what you're 2129 01:49:54,600 --> 01:49:57,720 talking about to come through. So the less we talk and the more 2130 01:49:57,720 --> 01:50:02,280 you talk, the better. That's in, that's what we, we 2131 01:50:02,280 --> 01:50:04,160 try to give people those expectations where it's just 2132 01:50:04,160 --> 01:50:05,560 like, this is just a conversation. 2133 01:50:05,720 --> 01:50:08,920 There's no set this or that. This is the general flow. 2134 01:50:09,080 --> 01:50:11,720 This is how the conversation usually goes. 2135 01:50:11,920 --> 01:50:14,000 And we'll just let the ADHD go from there. 2136 01:50:14,000 --> 01:50:16,920 So if you're not sure about that balance that you were talking 2137 01:50:16,920 --> 01:50:20,200 about, just fucking ask, Hey, what's the style of these 2138 01:50:20,200 --> 01:50:22,280 interviews? And again, go watch previous 2139 01:50:22,280 --> 01:50:24,680 ones and see how it works. Yeah. 2140 01:50:25,680 --> 01:50:27,480 And then the last one, which has already been mentioned so we're 2141 01:50:27,480 --> 01:50:29,200 not going to get into it, is just bring whatever it is that 2142 01:50:29,200 --> 01:50:32,280 made the host invite you. Again, cannot be stressed 2143 01:50:32,280 --> 01:50:34,160 enough. This goes for things that aren't 2144 01:50:34,160 --> 01:50:36,160 even just podcasts. Like any sort of collaboration 2145 01:50:36,160 --> 01:50:38,720 project, you should be bringing whatever it is that got people 2146 01:50:38,720 --> 01:50:40,480 excited to bring you on in the 1st place. 2147 01:50:41,000 --> 01:50:43,800 And then the last thing, and this is again, a little bit of 2148 01:50:43,800 --> 01:50:46,080 sausage is made because it's going to happen in a few 2149 01:50:46,080 --> 01:50:50,040 minutes, is after the episode. I plan on doing several things. 2150 01:50:50,040 --> 01:50:52,680 I'm going to ask how this is going to be distributed. 2151 01:50:52,680 --> 01:50:56,200 When's the podcast going to go live so that I can immediately 2152 01:50:56,200 --> 01:51:00,520 share it on social media because this is something that I this is 2153 01:51:00,520 --> 01:51:02,600 definitely a me thing. I'm not saying everyone has to 2154 01:51:02,600 --> 01:51:04,400 be this way. Some people aren't online like I 2155 01:51:04,400 --> 01:51:11,280 am, but like my little secret, like sick goal is for my 2156 01:51:11,280 --> 01:51:15,600 episodes to perform really well. I want that so bad because I 2157 01:51:15,600 --> 01:51:20,160 think it's obviously one because it's it's just good for me, but 2158 01:51:20,160 --> 01:51:22,120 also because it's another reason why someone would want me on the 2159 01:51:22,120 --> 01:51:25,120 podcast, right? And I know I'm not a huge get. 2160 01:51:25,360 --> 01:51:27,320 I don't know, I didn't make a big game. 2161 01:51:27,720 --> 01:51:29,920 I am not an award-winning designer. 2162 01:51:30,200 --> 01:51:35,200 So like, if I can still make the numbers go up regardless of 2163 01:51:35,200 --> 01:51:36,920 those qualities, that's a good thing. 2164 01:51:37,400 --> 01:51:39,520 And then though. You're a huge get for me, 2165 01:51:39,520 --> 01:51:40,760 Clayton, just so. Thank you. 2166 01:51:41,320 --> 01:51:44,280 Well, I do have a note too of that has not gone mentioned in 2167 01:51:44,280 --> 01:51:46,840 this entire thing, which is that you should try to collaborate 2168 01:51:46,840 --> 01:51:51,040 with people and cross promote who you think are near the same 2169 01:51:51,040 --> 01:51:55,400 size as you, because you it's the mutually beneficial thing. 2170 01:51:56,000 --> 01:51:59,040 If you're only going after the whales and trying to get, you 2171 01:51:59,040 --> 01:52:03,160 know, Matt Mercer to notice you, you're not going to be very 2172 01:52:03,160 --> 01:52:06,960 happy. And so then you go, of course, 2173 01:52:07,000 --> 01:52:08,520 look at people where you're like, I think they're bigger 2174 01:52:08,520 --> 01:52:11,200 than me, but not too big that they wouldn't maybe possibly 2175 01:52:11,200 --> 01:52:13,440 want to talk to me. And the last thing is I'm going 2176 01:52:13,440 --> 01:52:15,440 to ask for notes. I'm going to say, you know, all 2177 01:52:15,440 --> 01:52:17,960 the things I'm going to ask of like, hey, did was the balance 2178 01:52:17,960 --> 01:52:20,360 good? Was my audio go all right, All 2179 01:52:20,360 --> 01:52:23,040 those things. Just did that recently with 2180 01:52:23,040 --> 01:52:27,040 between two Cairns and, you know, ask him if it went all 2181 01:52:27,040 --> 01:52:30,480 right. So that's all what I, you know, 2182 01:52:30,600 --> 01:52:34,960 things that make you a better person on the podcast that I'm, 2183 01:52:35,360 --> 01:52:36,880 I'm, it's a theory I'm working on. 2184 01:52:37,320 --> 01:52:42,000 Yeah, did we did we talk about the last one briefly touched on 2185 01:52:42,000 --> 01:52:44,760 it, share the fucking podcast. We've had multiple guests come 2186 01:52:44,760 --> 01:52:47,800 on the show and just never mention that they were ever on 2187 01:52:47,800 --> 01:52:50,560 our show. And I'm just like, what the fuck 2188 01:52:50,560 --> 01:52:51,920 are you talking? What are we what are we even 2189 01:52:51,920 --> 01:52:52,720 doing with this? Right? 2190 01:52:53,800 --> 01:52:57,440 I've also had, I mean, last bit of bad examples and stuff like 2191 01:52:57,480 --> 01:53:03,000 I've had people ask us to do a PS for like their kickstarters 2192 01:53:03,000 --> 01:53:05,880 and shit to like demo games and stuff and then not put it on the 2193 01:53:05,880 --> 01:53:08,480 Kickstarter page, not link it beforehand. 2194 01:53:08,480 --> 01:53:10,600 It's just like, why did we took the time? 2195 01:53:10,960 --> 01:53:13,560 Like again, it's because we were excited for your game and want 2196 01:53:13,560 --> 01:53:16,840 to promote you. Like again, we might, I might be 2197 01:53:16,840 --> 01:53:18,600 a little bit weird and then I don't give a fuck about the 2198 01:53:18,600 --> 01:53:19,920 numbers. Like they're interesting to look 2199 01:53:19,920 --> 01:53:21,080 at. Like number go up is always 2200 01:53:21,080 --> 01:53:23,280 good, but like, I don't care. We're not monetized. 2201 01:53:23,280 --> 01:53:26,600 Like the more people we have listening, the more probably bad 2202 01:53:26,600 --> 01:53:31,120 emails I'm going to get. But it's weird to me when you 2203 01:53:31,200 --> 01:53:35,440 ask me for promotion for you and it's something I'm super excited 2204 01:53:35,440 --> 01:53:38,600 about and we do a thing for you and then it just disappears and 2205 01:53:38,600 --> 01:53:40,920 you never talk about it. It's like, did we do something 2206 01:53:40,920 --> 01:53:42,960 wrong? Did you just forget? 2207 01:53:42,960 --> 01:53:47,680 Like, why would you take all the work to be on a show and then 2208 01:53:47,680 --> 01:53:49,520 not share that with your community? 2209 01:53:49,520 --> 01:53:52,080 It's just, it's something like boggles me, but it's happened 2210 01:53:52,480 --> 01:53:53,760 multiple times with multiple guests. 2211 01:53:53,760 --> 01:53:54,880 It's just, I don't know, it's weird. 2212 01:53:57,720 --> 01:53:59,200 Yeah, weird. No, exactly. 2213 01:53:59,200 --> 01:54:02,120 It goes back to the thing of like, you know, it shouldn't be 2214 01:54:02,120 --> 01:54:04,240 a sick passion of mine. You should want the numbers to 2215 01:54:04,240 --> 01:54:08,080 go up for everybody. So share the thing, be a good 2216 01:54:09,480 --> 01:54:12,240 collaborator, communicate like the whole one of the things that 2217 01:54:12,240 --> 01:54:14,040 you're trying to do is you're trying to multiply everyone's 2218 01:54:14,040 --> 01:54:15,480 efforts by working together on this thing. 2219 01:54:15,480 --> 01:54:18,720 And if you just go dead silent, you're not doing that, You're 2220 01:54:18,720 --> 01:54:22,160 not helping out everybody else. All right. 2221 01:54:22,320 --> 01:54:25,920 So that's that's a lot. Yeah, we're going to skip that 2222 01:54:25,920 --> 01:54:28,240 last thing, right? Yeah, we sure are. 2223 01:54:28,240 --> 01:54:31,080 Are we going to do our final? We're going to do our final 2224 01:54:31,080 --> 01:54:35,000 blurbs and send people on their way to be better people in the 2225 01:54:35,000 --> 01:54:35,560 community? Yeah. 2226 01:54:36,040 --> 01:54:38,480 You're talking about like, let's do the the wrap up the. 2227 01:54:38,560 --> 01:54:39,720 Yeah, the wrap up. Yeah, yeah. 2228 01:54:39,720 --> 01:54:41,160 So what? So what are what are all your 2229 01:54:41,160 --> 01:54:42,680 links? Where can people find you, 2230 01:54:42,680 --> 01:54:43,840 Clayton? What? 2231 01:54:43,840 --> 01:54:45,240 What have you been working on? What? 2232 01:54:45,240 --> 01:54:46,960 What's coming up and where can people find it? 2233 01:54:47,960 --> 01:54:50,560 All right, well, so First off, I'm going to do the same thing I 2234 01:54:50,560 --> 01:54:53,800 did on the last time I was on this show, but get my stuff out 2235 01:54:53,800 --> 01:54:55,800 of the way. My my name is Clayton Notestein. 2236 01:54:55,960 --> 01:54:58,640 He him. I am going to be found on 2237 01:54:58,640 --> 01:55:01,320 explorersdesign.com. I have a newsletter called the 2238 01:55:01,320 --> 01:55:05,040 Explorer tour that curates a bunch of cool links from other 2239 01:55:05,040 --> 01:55:08,680 amazing people all over the Internet all about RPG design 2240 01:55:08,680 --> 01:55:11,400 for RPG designers love it if you subscribe to that. 2241 01:55:11,680 --> 01:55:15,320 I have a game or rather a adventure that I released 2242 01:55:15,320 --> 01:55:17,040 recently. I'm going to be releasing a 2243 01:55:17,040 --> 01:55:20,240 better version of it hopefully sometime in the new year in 2244 01:55:20,240 --> 01:55:23,240 January, going to show it to a bunch of friends and and ask 2245 01:55:23,240 --> 01:55:26,560 them to tear it to pieces. And then finally, last but not 2246 01:55:26,560 --> 01:55:29,440 least, the thing I want to do is I want to promote somebody else. 2247 01:55:29,440 --> 01:55:34,080 I saw them in the chat on this stream, so I'm going to call 2248 01:55:34,080 --> 01:55:35,400 them out. Lone archivist. 2249 01:55:35,680 --> 01:55:38,080 You check out their work. All right, they they make these 2250 01:55:38,080 --> 01:55:40,720 like polished and brooding like settings, adventures and 2251 01:55:40,720 --> 01:55:43,360 supplements, and they have amazing layout and graphic 2252 01:55:43,360 --> 01:55:45,960 design. You can see things like in other 2253 01:55:45,960 --> 01:55:49,880 waters, tie Break, what we give to alien gods, a lot of cool 2254 01:55:49,880 --> 01:55:51,600 mothership stuff. You can find them at 2255 01:55:51,600 --> 01:55:56,800 lonearchivist.com and also lone archivist dot itch dot IO. 2256 01:55:57,440 --> 01:56:00,760 Their stuff is amazing. I really specifically like their 2257 01:56:00,760 --> 01:56:04,400 little micro light like RPGs, which they call like the cargo 2258 01:56:04,400 --> 01:56:05,560 ship. They got a bunch of them. 2259 01:56:05,560 --> 01:56:08,440 They're really tiny, but they're like super condensed and 2260 01:56:08,440 --> 01:56:11,800 distilled really good. Yeah, love the work, love the 2261 01:56:11,880 --> 01:56:14,080 the design work and stuff they do with their logo work and 2262 01:56:14,080 --> 01:56:16,600 stuff as well. So just a great creator in this 2263 01:56:16,600 --> 01:56:18,600 space. Completely agree. 2264 01:56:20,520 --> 01:56:22,960 Promoting on our episode about self promotion where we promoted 2265 01:56:22,960 --> 01:56:24,480 a bunch of people. I'm super excited. 2266 01:56:24,480 --> 01:56:28,080 This is great and obviously you know where we are cuz you're 2267 01:56:28,080 --> 01:56:30,600 fucking watching us. So links are where they are on 2268 01:56:30,600 --> 01:56:34,000 the Internet. We'll make sure to put them 2269 01:56:34,000 --> 01:56:36,080 where they go. Lone archivists actually act 2270 01:56:36,200 --> 01:56:39,360 asked in chat if we if we want to put this dock up that we were 2271 01:56:39,360 --> 01:56:41,200 working on anywhere. Maybe, maybe I'll talk with 2272 01:56:41,200 --> 01:56:45,800 Clayton about how blog posts work and I'll put it somewhere 2273 01:56:45,800 --> 01:56:49,480 or or link it in some place that that people can talk. 2274 01:56:49,960 --> 01:56:52,160 But, but we'll see. But that is us. 2275 01:56:52,440 --> 01:56:56,440 I actually have a bunch of stuff and people going on coming on 2276 01:56:56,440 --> 01:56:58,640 the show like almost every other day for the next two weeks 2277 01:56:58,640 --> 01:57:02,320 before PAX. And I think you can find both of 2278 01:57:02,320 --> 01:57:04,480 us at PAX. That's fair. 2279 01:57:04,480 --> 01:57:07,040 We talked about that. It all depends on whether or not 2280 01:57:07,040 --> 01:57:10,120 the government wants to pay the damn air traffic controllers to 2281 01:57:10,120 --> 01:57:12,080 get our. Planes in forgot. 2282 01:57:12,080 --> 01:57:13,400 I literally just saw that yesterday. 2283 01:57:13,400 --> 01:57:14,800 The flights might be fucking cancelled. 2284 01:57:15,080 --> 01:57:17,200 You know how bad I would be probably. 2285 01:57:17,200 --> 01:57:21,480 So angry. So pending that, yes, I'm going 2286 01:57:21,480 --> 01:57:23,360 to be at PAX up and blogged. I'm really excited and walk the 2287 01:57:23,360 --> 01:57:25,120 floor and meet a bunch of people and play games. 2288 01:57:25,120 --> 01:57:29,120 Finest at PAX I'll have stuff to to pass out to people come up, 2289 01:57:29,120 --> 01:57:32,600 say hi, say my name and I'm very excited to see Clayton again in 2290 01:57:32,600 --> 01:57:35,680 person and we will see you all when you see it. 2291 01:57:35,680 --> 01:57:38,880 Click links, promote yourself well and promote other people. 2292 01:57:39,160 --> 01:57:39,920 We'll talk to you later. Bye. 2293 01:57:40,720 --> 01:57:41,360 See ya. Bye.