1
00:00:15,340 --> 00:00:17,540
Hello and welcome to the Weekly 
Scroll Podcast. 

2
00:00:17,540 --> 00:00:20,380
My name is Ryan and joining me 
is Tanner Simpson. 

3
00:00:20,380 --> 00:00:21,460
How you doing this morning 
Tanner? 

4
00:00:22,580 --> 00:00:28,260
I am awaken with you. 
That's, you know, that's the 

5
00:00:28,260 --> 00:00:32,720
best we can hope for, really. 
So, so for those who might not 

6
00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,240
know who who Tanner Simpson is, 
who, who, who the heck is Tanner

7
00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,000
Simpson? 
And what is Simpson Miniatures? 

8
00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,040
Who is Tanner Simpson? 
I didn't realize we were going 

9
00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,040
to get very introspective today.
I am. 

10
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,080
That quick, right? 
I mean, it's like a therapist. 

11
00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:51,600
I'm a miniature sculptor, 
miniature painter. 

12
00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,360
I like to do. 
Tabletop systems I like to write

13
00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:00,840
other than that. 
That's about it, I guess, yeah. 

14
00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,120
Yeah, I mean, obviously that's 
how I found you, became aware of

15
00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,280
you as I kind of started moving 
in a skirmish. 

16
00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,320
I found Simpson Miniatures, 
found this crazy thing called 

17
00:01:13,320 --> 00:01:16,600
won a reward. 
And and then just heard stories 

18
00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,840
from all around the community of
just this, this guy that does 

19
00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:21,920
all this crazy stuff everywhere 
he goes. 

20
00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:23,680
And that, that was my 
introduction. 

21
00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:25,360
Nobody was like, hey, we got to 
play this game. 

22
00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:29,200
Yeah. 
But I guess before we get into 

23
00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,840
that, because obviously we're 
going to talk wanted reward, I 

24
00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,920
guess what got you into the 
tabletop space and then 

25
00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:40,160
eventually into like actually 
like making miniatures. 

26
00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,920
How far back are you asking? 
As far back as you, as far back 

27
00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:46,440
as you want to go. 
I'm here for it. 

28
00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,840
Well, I I don't know if I've. 
Told this story. 

29
00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:56,240
Before, so I've I've talked on 
hive scum briefly and forget the

30
00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:01,840
name, there's one other podcast,
but I got into the scene because

31
00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:07,400
I read a black library book when
I was when I was getting on a 

32
00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:09,560
plane for the first time in my 
life. 

33
00:02:09,759 --> 00:02:13,920
I, I was visiting my, my 
biological father and I was 

34
00:02:13,920 --> 00:02:16,680
scared of the plane. 
So I wanted to read something on

35
00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:20,800
the plane and I went to a 
bookstore in the airport and 

36
00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,320
they had a sci-fi section of 
three books. 

37
00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:25,360
I remember that it was the top 
shelf. 

38
00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:31,000
There's three books and one of 
them was only in death. 

39
00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:36,400
I think it was one of the God's 
Ghost novels and I read it on 

40
00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,000
the plane part of it and I 
really liked it and I thought, 

41
00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:46,480
wow, War Hammer seems cool and I
got really into Miracle Demons. 

42
00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:53,120
In the future I was walking in 
college and a game store manager

43
00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,800
sold me I start collecting box 
and nurble demons for like $40. 

44
00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:02,480
So I was pretty stoked and I'm 
thinking, well, if I don't like 

45
00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:03,200
it. 
It's not that big of an 

46
00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:04,600
investment so it doesn't really 
matter. 

47
00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,680
And obviously here I am still 
doing novels. 

48
00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:14,640
Realized that Warhammer wasn't 
my my niche and slowly been 

49
00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:19,000
expanding from there. 
Got the old school DND from a a 

50
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,520
mentor kind of figure of mine 
when I was going to undergrad. 

51
00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,200
Yeah, it was like a local hobby 
shop owner who got me into old. 

52
00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,160
School boats and Dragons. 
And from there I just kind of 

53
00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,560
started writing my own systems. 
And I don't know, you meet 

54
00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,040
people in the hobby. 
There's so much more to the 

55
00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,480
hobby than playing Warhammer. 
You just kind of realize, like, 

56
00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:41,840
why would I didn't even like 
playing the game itself? 

57
00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,800
I originally I wanted to just 
try the game and I realized, you

58
00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:50,040
know, I was doing like late 7th 
edition, early 8th edition and 

59
00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,880
just didn't enjoy it. 
I mean, I don't know, they like 

60
00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:59,120
gameplay very much. 
I like the I like showing off 

61
00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:01,200
who I. 
Was through my models. 

62
00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:07,760
More making my own, like armies,
like a not like the actual 

63
00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,360
models, but making your own war 
for armies. 

64
00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:16,120
You know where they come from. 
Named characters, all bad. 

65
00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:20,600
Watch it. 
Yeah, that's interesting. 

66
00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,000
No, absolutely. 
So my, my introduction into 

67
00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:25,720
Warhammer was through the novels
too. 

68
00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,080
When I, when I got into D&D back
in, I, I started the 5th edition

69
00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,840
like, you know, 2014. 
I also kind of found Warhammer, 

70
00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:35,200
but I was like, these are 
expensive if I get into this 

71
00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:36,680
album to go broke really, really
fast. 

72
00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,560
So I can't do that. 
But much later I, I picked up 

73
00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,800
some of the Black Library books 
and started reading those and 

74
00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,480
then eventually down the road 
started getting into this 

75
00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:47,240
skirmish scene. 
So yeah, my introduction was, 

76
00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:51,520
was the Black library as well. 
But what, when did you actually 

77
00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,640
start crafting your own models? 
And like, how did you get to the

78
00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,080
point where you're at now? 
Cuz like I, I've recently 

79
00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,800
started trying to play with the 
green stuff and it's not easy 

80
00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,200
to, and I have the benefit of a 
bunch of YouTube tutorials and 

81
00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,600
stuff now in 2026, like what, 
when did you actually start 

82
00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:08,560
making models? 
And, and where was the Nergal 

83
00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,400
stuff? 
You're were you making Nergal 

84
00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,880
bits or you again started making
your own characters right away? 

85
00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,920
The first time I think that's a 
multi faceted question. 

86
00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:21,160
The first time I touch green 
stuff actually I could reach. 

87
00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:29,000
I did a soul grinder with a baby
head and the green stuff 

88
00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,160
connecting the neck to the body 
was the first time I ever. 

89
00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:37,320
Used green stuff. 
Obviously it's a very, I don't 

90
00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:43,400
know, low skill application of 
it, but I just learned, oh, you 

91
00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,880
know, green stuff is green and 
you can customize your own 

92
00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:48,320
models. 
I didn't really like the soul 

93
00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,160
grinders head. 
I thought it was a little basic 

94
00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,200
and I wanted to look more 
unnerable. 

95
00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,080
Was like life and death, like oh
baby heads, that'll be fun. 

96
00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,880
It was more of just a thing to 
customize the three models I had

97
00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,720
at the time. 
But regarding making my own 

98
00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,440
models and sculpting, I've been 
drawing monsters since I was a 

99
00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,920
little kid. 
My grandma kept all my 

100
00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,440
illustrations. 
I still have them that's an 

101
00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,600
adult but underneath me 
somewhere in an accordion 

102
00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,640
folder. 
But I always created monsters 

103
00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:23,120
and I I've read monster manuals 
far before I read anything 40K 

104
00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,600
related. 
I've just I've always loved 

105
00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,240
monster manuals and field 
guides. 

106
00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,560
Have a bookshelf like Plants and
Insect and. 

107
00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:32,880
All kinds of field. 
Guides. 

108
00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:37,800
I just love encyclopedias. 
So over time I just got deeper 

109
00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,520
and deeper to how can I, how can
I communicate my own creative 

110
00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:43,400
expressions? 
Can I do it through? 

111
00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,400
I wanted to try sculpting with 
like a stone, like chiseling. 

112
00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,840
I tried whittling. 
I tried all kinds of weird 

113
00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:55,200
hobbies to to communicate what 
my creative expression was. 

114
00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,480
And eventually I tried green 
stuff and kind of like that. 

115
00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,520
And millipot, I learned was my 
my go to. 

116
00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,160
I don't use green stuff, 
especially now that it's like 

117
00:07:06,280 --> 00:07:08,400
out of production, impossible to
get. 

118
00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,160
I just I just use millipot when 
I sculpt. 

119
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:16,200
Recently with my I've been doing
a new game called Slumlord and 

120
00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,240
I've been doing dioramas for it.
That's been the models 

121
00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,640
themselves are made out of. 
I don't think there's one at 

122
00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:23,800
least, but. 
No. 

123
00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,200
But they're made out of Super 
Sculpey because it's what I had 

124
00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,160
on hand when I was working with 
clients. 

125
00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,400
I'm a therapist that I do heart 
therapy. 

126
00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,680
Sometimes I find that especially
with younger clients, if I'm 

127
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,920
just staring at them, it's a 
little harder to open up. 

128
00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,560
So I'll have Sculpey in the room
for them to use it for me to 

129
00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,240
use. 
So we're both kind of busy doing

130
00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:45,960
something during our 
conversation. 

131
00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:51,560
And some of those things I kept,
I didn't smush after I was done 

132
00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:53,240
with it. 
I just brought it home and put 

133
00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:58,840
in a little oven to bake. 
So usually I just do millipot 

134
00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,680
but sometimes super sculpey. 
I don't really like it honestly 

135
00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,400
in comparison, but I don't know 
it has its uses and. 

136
00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,640
Then what, what was your 
introduction into like, I guess 

137
00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,880
the current scene, I guess like 
where have you gone to a lot of 

138
00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,160
Adepticons and, and been in, in 
that team for a long time? 

139
00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,040
Or are you newer to, to go into 
those? 

140
00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,680
Because I, I think I've only 
been to the last two. 

141
00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,040
Yeah, post Schaumburg, 
apparently. 

142
00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,200
Yeah, I think I went to the last
year at Schaumburg maybe, or 

143
00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,240
maybe it was the second to last.
I've been going for a couple 

144
00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:41,120
years now. 
Definitely went to I think 2IN 

145
00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,040
Schaumburg now I think about it,
because 1 was hosted by Steve 

146
00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,440
and Big Boy Game Time and the 
other I got a hotel with a bunch

147
00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,640
of friends. 
So yeah, so I went to two in 

148
00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,880
Schaumburg and then I've been 
with every Milwaukee one since I

149
00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,400
lived in Milwaukee. 
So it's easy. 

150
00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:01,240
I just go down the road. 
But yeah, I like under the ice 

151
00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:02,920
fast. 
I just went for my first year. 

152
00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,480
I won the flail, the rusted 
demon. 

153
00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,520
It's fun. 
I like, I like other ice fest a 

154
00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,920
lot. 
It's it's everything you like 

155
00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:19,840
about under the about Adapticon.
But what's the word concentrated

156
00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:24,880
into one convention? 
Yeah, I'm, I definitely plan to 

157
00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,600
go to Utd this year for my first
time and I'm very excited about 

158
00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:29,040
it. 
I that's what one said like 

159
00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,400
because the Grimdark Alley kind 
of feels like its own little 

160
00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,040
convention within the convention
anyway. 

161
00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,520
And a lot of people said Utd is 
basically like the Grimdark 

162
00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,320
Alley is like its own convention
to expand that out of it. 

163
00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,120
And that seems if you. 
Like hanging out, talking to 

164
00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,160
people within the scene. 
That's the whole thing. 

165
00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,240
It's just a, it's just the grim 
dark alley blown up. 

166
00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,880
It's a bigger room. 
That's that's the best part. 

167
00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,240
I mean I spent like 90% of my 
time in the alley anyway. 

168
00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:55,760
So like having a multi day con 
doing that I think will be a 

169
00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:57,640
great time. 
I'll see you there. 

170
00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,280
You said you also write games, 
write systems. 

171
00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,880
And, and I chatted with Goob 
actually recently, just last 

172
00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,080
week, and was talking to him 
about won a reward. 

173
00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:10,640
And he basically was like, yeah,
I had this idea and then 

174
00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:12,320
Tanner's, Tanner's the systems 
guy. 

175
00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:16,240
And he just kind of ran with it.
So what the systems guy? 

176
00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:17,000
Yeah. 
What? 

177
00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,160
So what what got you into, I 
guess writing systems are like, 

178
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:21,840
what was the first system that 
you wrote and why? 

179
00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:23,320
Why you say that? 
I'm going to go grab a bunch of 

180
00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,760
your systems so I forgot. 
That's funny. 

181
00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,360
I'm not really, I mean, I don't 
have like a background to game 

182
00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,760
design or anything. 
I just play a lot of indie video

183
00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:38,040
games and I don't know, I like 
writing rules. 

184
00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,800
I've always liked writing rules 
and mechanics and thinking. 

185
00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,280
I'm a very creative person. 
I guess I just like creating 

186
00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,160
things. 
But as far as my first system 

187
00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:55,360
probably be, I started a system 
based around the Final Fantasy 

188
00:10:55,360 --> 00:11:00,360
Tactics a long time ago called 
Fantasy Tactics that was never 

189
00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,480
completed. 
I ended up because Steven Big 

190
00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,080
Boy Game Time is a big fan of 
Final Fantasy Tactics. 

191
00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:10,200
So I gave him the leftovers and 
said feel free to make something

192
00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,680
of this if you want. 
And I think he still has the 

193
00:11:13,680 --> 00:11:16,720
files, but it never was 
officially released or anything.

194
00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:18,720
I don't know. 
It was an interesting little 

195
00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,560
skirmish game thing you could 
use any model for. 

196
00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:25,800
It was very basic. 
There was a whole combat flow 

197
00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,240
chart that was a nightmare to to
navigate. 

198
00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,240
It was really funny. 
But my first like actual system 

199
00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,960
was probably my cat game, TSPN 
Teaspoon. 

200
00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,200
I wrote that as a just an 
experiment to see what it'd be 

201
00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,640
like writing a game. 
I was kind of edged on by the 

202
00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:47,440
high scum guys to do so. 
Well, why not? 

203
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,320
So I just wrote it on my couch 
with colored pencils and crayons

204
00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,520
while I was watching TV and 
stuff. 

205
00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,120
And I don't know, it became a 
much bigger thing than I 

206
00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:57,920
anticipated. 
And I went, all right, and it's 

207
00:11:57,920 --> 00:11:59,760
kind of fun. 
Maybe I should put more thought 

208
00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:04,640
and time into it than I am now. 
And I wrote a bunch of scenes, 

209
00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,920
like the fishing game, DDFF 
2000, Deep Dark Fishing Fantasy.

210
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,160
Yeah, there we go. 
That one isn't really playable. 

211
00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:15,680
It is playable, but I think that
when I write games, I don't pay 

212
00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:20,040
attention to how much they work,
like how much they function as a

213
00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,280
playable thing. 
It's more of like an art piece 

214
00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,000
that might work. 
It's a theoretical system. 

215
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:26,680
It theoretically works, but it 
might not. 

216
00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:30,200
It might not really play well. 
There's a few mechanics that 

217
00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,200
game that just don't work at 
all. 

218
00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:36,120
They're completely broken, but 
it looks cool and there's an 

219
00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,480
idea behind it. 
That game was written in the 

220
00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,040
same of a month and like a fever
dream, I was in a haze. 

221
00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,080
I wrote it. 
I just typed and typed and typed

222
00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,680
and type, type. 
Eventually it was done and I 

223
00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:49,400
went, all right, I'm done. 
I'm quite tested at once with a 

224
00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,400
friend and I give it out of 
convention sometimes. 

225
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,760
But writing games is fun because
nobody's there to tell you what 

226
00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:58,920
to do. 
You're going to make all the 

227
00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,720
rules and if other people care 
enough or think it's cool like 

228
00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,240
you do, they give it a try. 
And then you hear stories about 

229
00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,800
their games and that makes me 
really happy, hearing other 

230
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,120
people's experiences and like 
how the game helped them in some

231
00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,120
way or they enjoyed their 
experience. 

232
00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,880
I like them to be tool boxes the
players use to to create their 

233
00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,480
own things. 
So one reward, for example, is 

234
00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,920
pretty much a huge toolbox for 
players to make their own Galaxy

235
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:30,400
or solar systems of different 
planets and alien races. 

236
00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,120
I don't know, I think people 
just want to make their own 

237
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,040
things. 
I think at the core, everybody 

238
00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,160
wants to make their own guys. 
They want to put their own two 

239
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,440
cents, but it was too complex. 
That makes it a little more 

240
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,720
difficult for the way the 
average person to, like, figure 

241
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,320
out how to do that seems 
intimidating, but anybody could 

242
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:55,720
do it. 
Just a matter of. 

243
00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:00,520
Trying I guess. 
Yeah, you know what you said, 

244
00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:04,240
you said teaspoon tea, the 
Gardens of Hecatee playthrough 

245
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:08,200
of like how they played teaspoon
was actually I think maybe my 

246
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,640
first introduction to you and 
and and your work and then and 

247
00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:13,560
then. 
Yeah. 

248
00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:17,040
It's great. 
It's, it's one of those ones. 

249
00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,640
So like I, I'm, I'm just getting
into like doing terrain and 

250
00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:22,360
stuff. 
And teaspoon was the one that 

251
00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,360
I've had set up to be like I'm, 
I can make a mini board and 

252
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,920
practice making like a little 
mini board with like flocking 

253
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:29,240
and stuff. 
So I can have a little like 

254
00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,440
teaspoon pin to put my little, 
my little, my little guy in for,

255
00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,360
for those that haven't read 
teaspoon and, and the links are,

256
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,120
you know, where, where they are 
on the Internet so people can 

257
00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,720
find it. 
So what is, Yeah. 

258
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,240
Well, so. 
So what is teaspoon for those 

259
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,680
that don't know what it is? 
It's a Tamagotchi game. 

260
00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:53,680
It's a tabletop Tamagotchi where
you randomly generate a pet and 

261
00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:58,080
you have to play it every day 
until the pet runs away, it 

262
00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,360
dies, or you get bored and just 
stop. 

263
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,160
I want this. 
I want to simulate getting a 

264
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,560
real pet. 
You can't see it, but on my left

265
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,120
and right I have multiple 
aquariums with catfish and 

266
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:14,520
shrimp and whatnot. 
And I love keeping aquariums, 

267
00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:16,760
terrariums. 
I think it's a lot of fun. 

268
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,760
I'm Madagascar hissing cockroach
and a jar on my left. 

269
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,520
But with every pet there's kind 
of this cycle of you get 

270
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,880
excited, you create the 
enclosure, the the terrarium, 

271
00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,520
the aquarium, but a lot of time 
and energy to doing so, you get 

272
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,560
the pet, you get excited, you 
watch it for a day or two, you 

273
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:36,640
pay a lot of attention to it and
make sure all the parameters are

274
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:38,600
right. 
And at least for me, not being a

275
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,440
cat or a dog, but being like an 
aquarium or something smaller, 

276
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,240
it's going to get bored of it 
and it becomes this like hassle 

277
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,480
you have to put up with and keep
making sure it doesn't die. 

278
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,440
Make sure like the. 
You know you're maintaining it, 

279
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,280
caring for it, cleaning it. 
And I thought that was a really 

280
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,400
funny concept. 
So what if there was a tabletop 

281
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,600
game that you put a lot of 
energy and excitement into and 

282
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,320
then it becomes a chore of you 
do your dailies Otherwise it 

283
00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,000
gets. 
Sick and dies so for many. 

284
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,120
People they get like that same 
hassle of like they care about 

285
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,080
it and they go, oh, should I 
have to do that? 

286
00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,920
You know, you can like you can 
let your pet, like you can put 

287
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,320
up for adoption. 
There's easy ways out of the 

288
00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:16,960
game. 
You don't have to let it die. 

289
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,240
It's not a feel bad game, but 
generally speaking, people end 

290
00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:25,760
up the pet dies or runs away or,
you know, it's, it's a 

291
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,440
simulation in real life. 
Yeah. 

292
00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:30,080
And this. 
Is why I don't have a cat or a 

293
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,520
dog or literally anything. 
I didn't even want the plant 

294
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,040
that I have and now I care about
it, but I have to take care of 

295
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,000
it. 
But for that exact reason, like 

296
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,400
I just don't have like the time 
or energy to to take care of 

297
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:42,160
something else. 
And that's why I want to do I 

298
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:46,080
want to do teaspoon really bad 
because that is exactly what it 

299
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:47,680
feels like. 
It feels like I'm going to build

300
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,280
a board. 
I'm going to get past a cool 

301
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,520
little pet guy and then I got to
do yeah, do the dailies every 

302
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,680
day where I'm like, fuck, it's 
like 2 AMI, you know, fed the 

303
00:16:55,680 --> 00:17:00,000
thing yet or not So, but no, 
it's it's it's great. 

304
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,120
And it's it's mostly legible 
too. 

305
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,079
You can read most of the the 
rules in it. 

306
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,440
It's very difficult as far as a 
lot of my the people that 

307
00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:11,760
originally were played best in 
the game and they came around 

308
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,680
like a running joke in the 
community that you had to 

309
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,240
manually handwrite the entire 
system and your own handwriting.

310
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,880
And people are making notebooks 
and colleges. 

311
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,839
They were really making the game
their own, which I think is 

312
00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:28,000
important. 
As I said before, all my games 

313
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:32,800
require the the person playing 
it to put their own two cents 

314
00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:34,480
and use their own. 
It's a toolbox. 

315
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,560
For their own creativity. 
So, and to play Teaspoon, which 

316
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:42,200
is a very personal game. 
I mean, the the name is my name,

317
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:44,960
Tanner Simpson TSB and it's my 
signature. 

318
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:50,640
So Teaspoon inside of it, it's 
all note like I don't know, it's

319
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:54,160
written for me, by me. 
So it's very personal. 

320
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,360
And I don't expect anybody else 
to really understand a lot of 

321
00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:02,200
the little references or nudges,
Easter eggs for me. 

322
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,720
But when other people play it, 
read the game and rewrite it to 

323
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:07,800
themselves, they'll even fix 
some of the rules they don't 

324
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,000
like or they'll leave parts out.
And that's, you know, it's like 

325
00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,480
old school D&D. 
Nobody plays every rule of AD 

326
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,520
and D, They just use what they 
want to. 

327
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,040
I think that's that's how water 
reward plays. 

328
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,920
Nobody plays the fishing game, 
but that's how that plays. 

329
00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:25,680
People just use the rules that 
they feel are necessary at that 

330
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,040
given time. 
I have put a little bit of time 

331
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:29,960
into the fishing game, but I 
specifically, I don't know if 

332
00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,520
you remember, I messaged in the 
discord and I asked if there's a

333
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,520
PDF of it and people were like, 
no, you know, there's not. 

334
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,800
But then someone in the discord 
actually made me a PDF of it. 

335
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,960
Yeah, and. 
But when they sent it to me, it 

336
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,960
was upside down, the PDF was 
upside down and I was. 

337
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,400
Like, yeah. 
But, and that's exactly what it 

338
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,000
was like because I was like, 
they were like, oh, you know, I 

339
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:55,440
can try to fix that. 
Just give me more time. 

340
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:56,680
And I was like, no, please 
don't. 

341
00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,680
Like that's the most like I 
think Tanner Simpson discord 

342
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,160
thing I could get is to actually
get a PDF of it and it's upside 

343
00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:03,960
down. 
So please just leave it because 

344
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,880
because I want to do it at work.
I think that don't even bother 

345
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:09,280
point that one, that one doesn't
work. 

346
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,280
It doesn't work. 
It's it's a theoretical game, 

347
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,200
it's an art piece, right? 
But that's, that's, that's 

348
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:16,600
what's fun about interacting 
with. 

349
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,800
And that's honestly one of the 
things that I enjoy most about 

350
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,360
your work, especially coming 
from, you know, we've done the 

351
00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:24,920
TRBG scene, you know, for a 
really long time. 

352
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,400
And I've bitched on the podcast 
for a really long time about how

353
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,120
I feel about the the current 
scene and how it feels very like

354
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,440
product focused, not like art 
and game focused. 

355
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,040
And then when I encountered a 
year, yeah. 

356
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,600
But then I. 
Encountered your work and and 

357
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,920
honestly, like that's one of the
things I enjoy most about it and

358
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:43,760
specifically what you said 
earlier in the show where it's 

359
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,280
just like this is an art piece. 
This is it kind of works. 

360
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:47,600
I did it because it was in my 
brain. 

361
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:52,160
I got it out and and I really 
appreciate that about all the 

362
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,960
things that you do where it 
feels like, you know, it's free,

363
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,040
it's personal, it's there if 
people want to use it, it's 

364
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,960
theoretical. 
It was just fun to do and people

365
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:03,360
going to interact with it the 
way they want. 

366
00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:07,280
And that's, that's great. 
I love that about games and and 

367
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,920
that, so that's the thing I 
would, if I had to say one thing

368
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:14,560
that I appreciate most about 
your work is just how it's just 

369
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,720
out there for people to enjoy 
with them, people to interact 

370
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,720
with the way that they want and 
people to, to make it as 

371
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:19,880
personal as the way that they 
want. 

372
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,960
And it's great to see. 
Well, at the end of the day, the

373
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:27,560
community for me, the tabletop 
community, the 28 community, the

374
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,640
hive scum, all our Instagram 
community, right? 

375
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:36,000
I think that it's so much more 
than just painting Games 

376
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:41,240
Workshop models, so much more 
than the. 

377
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,320
Corporate part of it, I think 
that's how everybody gets into 

378
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,520
the game is they have to get 
sucked in from somewhere so 

379
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:47,880
you're. 
Most likely going to get pulled 

380
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,760
in from some big they pulled off
the street right? 

381
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,360
Like in my case I literally was 
walking with my girlfriend and 

382
00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:56,000
they pulled me off the street. 
As this games Workshop manager 

383
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,040
say hey have you ever heard of 
40K? 

384
00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,760
He's just. 
Standing from LDS but once you 

385
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,880
actually get. 
Into the scene, it's more about 

386
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,440
the people that you play with 
It's about the for me, I mean, 

387
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,720
fuck the game, it's not about 
the games, it's about the 

388
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:11,480
people, right? 
It's by the friendships it's 

389
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,680
about the interaction half the 
more than half the year, the 

390
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:19,600
entire year, other than one week
or two weeks and not interacting

391
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,640
physically with hobby folk, I'm 
just painting or sculpting or 

392
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:29,160
writing and you know, I really 
want to create things for my 

393
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,280
friends to talk about or to see 
about that communication. 

394
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:34,320
I don't know. 
It serves as a. 

395
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,600
Kind of a. 
Springboard for actually 

396
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,600
developing friendships and 
talking and sharing something. 

397
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,600
But I think that's why my games 
are so intimate and personal. 

398
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,880
It's because they're, again, 
they're written for a specific 

399
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:50,640
person and most of the time it's
me. 

400
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:52,320
Water Ward, I think is The only 
exception. 

401
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,000
That was the game for Eric, 
because he asked me to write a 

402
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,560
game and he said, here's my 
idea. 

403
00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,040
And I said that game that sounds
like a game I love to play and 

404
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,560
it doesn't exist. 
So let's create it. 

405
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:09,120
And you know, it's, I think that
I put so much time and thought 

406
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:12,480
and energy into that game. 
Again, it might not work fully 

407
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,880
parts of it work, but parts that
probably don't. 

408
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,200
And that's part of the fun, 
right? 

409
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,800
But I kind of realized like, I 
don't want to be writing games 

410
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,560
with shooting. 
I don't want to be writing 28 

411
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,880
games anymore. 
I want to just make my own shit.

412
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,680
So now I'm doing my landlord 
game. 

413
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,280
I feel much more like, all 
right, this is kind of like 

414
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,440
Teaspoon too. 
It's like my game but with a lot

415
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,360
more energy and thought and 
time. 

416
00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:41,840
And I don't know, I'm really 
excited about putting my own 

417
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,600
personality into a game again 
versus maybe something for my 

418
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:46,480
friends. 
Right. 

419
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,800
No, no, absolutely. 
Well, I, I want to talk about 

420
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,600
the landlord game, but while 
we're talking about wanted, I 

421
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,120
want to bring that up a little 
bit and, and I guess, well, let 

422
00:22:57,120 --> 00:23:00,600
me hide that right there. 
I guess talk to me. 

423
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:06,240
So this is goo Eric, you know, 
had this idea and, and started 

424
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:07,960
it off. 
How did it actually come to be, 

425
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:09,520
though? 
And like, how did you meet Eric 

426
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,440
in the 1st place and actually 
get, you know, up and running 

427
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,560
with this and then get to a 
point where you literally have 

428
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:19,840
like the game and the game in a 
DVD box and on like DVD and on 

429
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,080
floppy disk and on zip disk and,
and everything. 

430
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:27,520
Like how did you get from this 
idea to this stack in my hands 

431
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:32,160
here? 
Well, you know, I I met. 

432
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:37,200
Eric because I saw a person on 
Instagram making goblin sculpts.

433
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,480
And you know, I do major 
sculpture myself, so I think I 

434
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:46,040
really enjoy indie sculpting. 
I just enjoy indie sculpture. 

435
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,240
So I saw this guy out of 
nowhere, like he had no place in

436
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,200
the scene. 
Nobody knew who he was, just 

437
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,560
showed up and started posting 
these goblin sculpts. 

438
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,240
I went, oh, who is this person? 
You know? 

439
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,400
I DM them. 
So as as with any friendship I 

440
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,120
make any person, if I respect 
the person enough and I look up 

441
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:07,640
to them in some way 
artistically, I'll reach out, 

442
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,240
send a message, start talking 
and most of the time networks 

443
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,080
they respond to, we chat. 
But. 

444
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,000
Yeah, we just talked a lot and 
he was looking to go to 

445
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,480
antibiotic con and a bunch of 
random hobby folk that I vaguely

446
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,400
knew didn't have a hotel. 
So I said let's all just get a 

447
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,360
hotel together. 
And we were all strangers at the

448
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:27,320
time. 
Basically. 

449
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,880
We made a group chat. 
And ever since that we've been 

450
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,800
like inseparable. 
So all those guys and I, we we 

451
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:38,640
formed a tight bond. 
But yeah, to become the actual 

452
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,760
like zip disk, floppy disk. 
You have an idea for gaming 

453
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,720
pitch that me just when I say 
pitched he just went OK dude. 

454
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:48,600
Hear me out. 
Yeah, one of those. 

455
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:50,720
Hear me out. 
Here's the basic idea. 

456
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,880
They gave me an idea of two 
teams of bounty hunters 

457
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,320
competing to capture some middle
party. 

458
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,880
And when I heard bounty hunters 
sci-fi, I just got this really 

459
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:09,280
like kind of schlocky pulp 
satirical sci-fi bounty hunters.

460
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,720
Like that's so fun and it's so 
open to interpretation. 

461
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,560
Anybody can make anything you 
could do with sci-fi. 

462
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,480
It's fun because you could even 
go into like fantasy realm of 

463
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,640
like, well, I want my guys to be
Cavemen with Spears and you can 

464
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,240
do that, right? 
You can make your people as low 

465
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,760
tech as possible. 
I think that it was a very slow 

466
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:34,320
process of creating the game. 
I think for like a year and a 

467
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,000
half, two years. 
I have a discord where a bunch 

468
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,360
of hot people talk about 
everything but water reward, but

469
00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:41,880
it's supposed to be a water 
reward play. 

470
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,000
That's a discord. 
And I guess sometimes. 

471
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,640
People play test to give me 
feedback and whatnot. 

472
00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:49,480
Generally it exists just so I 
can see if something's overtly 

473
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,160
broken, it just doesn't function
in the game and I can fix that. 

474
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,880
But no, again, it's just kind of
a. 

475
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,360
It's a joke. 
The system itself is a joke. 

476
00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:02,600
It doesn't try to be funny. 
It doesn't tell you jokes. 

477
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,240
But water reward is a joke, the 
entire system is a joke, but 

478
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,000
people seem to like it a lot and
it brings a lot of people 

479
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,360
together, so that makes me 
happy. 

480
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:14,960
Yeah, no, it's if it's a joke, 
it's one of the best jokes out 

481
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,800
there. 
I've said repeatedly, I've said 

482
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,960
repeatedly on this show and to 
most people that won a reward is

483
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:26,800
one of the best TTRP, GS and 
skirmish games out there right 

484
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,880
now for so many reasons. 
One, because like you just said,

485
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,320
like it is a joke. 
Like when you go into the 

486
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,000
system, you're just like, yeah, 
this works. 

487
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,960
Anyone that tries to play the 
entire game though will go crazy

488
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:40,400
like it's. 
Impossible. 

489
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,440
It's impossible, yeah. 
That's intentional, right? 

490
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,480
I mean, there's mechanics for 
MPC relationships between each 

491
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,800
MPC and the game tells you, you 
have to have, you know, I think 

492
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,840
it's between zero to 100 MPCS, 
like just civilians wandering 

493
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,600
around. 
So if you were trying to 

494
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,880
simulate, a computer could do 
it, you know, But a person? 

495
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,760
You can't you. 
Can't do a relationship 

496
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:08,320
triangles between 100 different 
NPCS while also running the game

497
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,760
while also gambling while. 
Yeah, there's just too much 

498
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:13,680
shit. 
Too much shit. 

499
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,720
But. 
It's the, the toolbox aspect of 

500
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,360
it is, you know, one of my 
favorite parts of it is whatever

501
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,280
game you decide to run for that 
session, you can just pick the 

502
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:25,560
parts that you want to use for 
it. 

503
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,480
So if you do want to have some 
type of like NPC love triangle, 

504
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,720
you can do that. 
You're going to like cut off a 

505
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:32,760
bunch of other stuff. 
But if that's a focus you want 

506
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:34,400
for the game, you absolutely 
could do that. 

507
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,880
And that's what's great is 
almost anything you want to do 

508
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,320
is in here. 
You just need to dig deep to try

509
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,560
to find that part of it and then
get to play with it. 

510
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,280
And and like I said, as a teach 
RPG, as much of the skirmish 

511
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,160
game, because just about every 
session I've been in quickly 

512
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,080
devolves into like way more RP 
than like actually engaging with

513
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,520
like the skirmish rules. 
And and so much of it is the 

514
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,600
civilians too, and and their 
reactions to everything, you 

515
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,000
know, everything just goes to 
shit as soon as one of them sees

516
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,440
a gun is just I don't know, it 
gets me every time. 

517
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,280
Yeah, well, I wanted. 
It to feel like real life, like 

518
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,880
if you're Seville. 
I was out of laundry because I 

519
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,680
had to. 
I had to put a rug in a 

520
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,160
laundromat. 
I don't have a washer. 

521
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,400
She could put a whole rug in it.
Or carpet. 

522
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:15,160
What is it called? 
Rug. 

523
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,000
Yeah. 
And I was looking around and 

524
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,360
thinking about this, like, 
everybody's calm and just 

525
00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:21,200
wandering around, not really 
doing anything. 

526
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:22,760
People are. 
Chatting if a. 

527
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,840
Armored man with a laser gun 
kick the door down. 

528
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,840
People fucking freak out. 
They'd run around and shoot at 

529
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:30,760
the fan pretty quick. 
People start blasting. 

530
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,760
That's what the game really is. 
It's like the first couple turns

531
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,920
are kind of quiet. 
People could sneak around or 

532
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,600
kind of plan and then when when 
they get they realize, oh hey, 

533
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,920
you know, something's happening.
Then chaos breaks loose. 

534
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,560
People run off the board. 
People are taking cover. 

535
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,000
Depending on the profiles, the 
MPCS, they might fight back, 

536
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,480
they might just run away or 
hide. 

537
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,400
It really depends. 
It's all random base rules and 

538
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,440
whatnot. 
No, it's I, I love it. 

539
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,480
I think it's fucking incredible.
Like I said, just the fact that 

540
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,840
again, you have this giant, it's
not even giant. 

541
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,680
You have a a, but it's still 
decently big system of pretty 

542
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,360
much like you said, just tools 
to use to make whatever game you

543
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,440
want. 
I mean one of my favorites is 

544
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,600
the like the Droid coding you 
have to do to actually use one. 

545
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,720
Because I want I. 
Want the right rules for the and

546
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,960
initially droids? 
It's like you write contingency 

547
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,880
commands so you write the coding
for how they function in game. 

548
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,840
And I just. 
Apparently there's other systems

549
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,000
like old school. 
Warhammer I think like how this 

550
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,480
Rogue Trader or 40K but there's 
rules for robots. 

551
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,040
It's like a flow chart. 
So there's similar rules that 

552
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,240
exist out there, but. 
For my own sake, I feel like if 

553
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,800
I read too many other systems, I
get I just copy their rules. 

554
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,280
So I want to write my own, 
right? 

555
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,040
But I wrote those for me because
I wanted there to be robots that

556
00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,400
felt very robotic and would fall
into those trappings of being a 

557
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,120
stupid Roomba, bumping into 
walls and that kind of thing. 

558
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,080
That's what it becomes, right? 
I think it was Steve's story. 

559
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,440
High scum Steve. 
He wrote all these rules for a 

560
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,160
Droid he forgot to write. 
Like walking around, like the 

561
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,840
very beginning, like just 
looking, there's all these 

562
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,720
contingencies if it were to find
somebody and when the game 

563
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,200
started. 
He realized it couldn't move. 

564
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:23,840
It would just stand completely 
still. 

565
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,840
Unless a bad guy walked right up
in his cultivation, it wouldn't 

566
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,280
do anything. 
So just completely sit still and

567
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,120
either that's the. 
Best but that's the most perfect

568
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,480
encapsulation of the game too. 
Is just like how ridiculous it 

569
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,720
can get and just how I don't. 
There's not a better way to 

570
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,320
describe, like, playing the game
than literally that. 

571
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:45,760
Yeah. 
You put all this time into 

572
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,560
making this thing work the way 
it should work, and then then 

573
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:49,960
it's just busted and doesn't 
work. 

574
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,280
But like, I'm sure crazy stuff 
came from it, Yeah. 

575
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,240
It should work, but it doesn't. 
No. 

576
00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:58,480
But. 
But. 

577
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,320
But trying to make it work is 
what's fun. 

578
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,920
It's like, it's like finding 
like a busted down engine and 

579
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:06,960
trying to figure out why the 
spark plug is in sparking or 

580
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,520
something. 
Like it's enjoyable to to try to

581
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,080
figure it out and to interact 
with it the way that it can. 

582
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,120
Because I have some of your 
other stuff here too, like rules

583
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,400
is class dual as well. 
Other stuff that you you've 

584
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:20,400
done. 
What do you think is your most 

585
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,520
playable game if you're saying 
that most of your stuff is 

586
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:25,920
broken? 
I mean, one reward is. 

587
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,200
Most acceptable. 
It's just that people like 

588
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,240
shooting guns, so you know, you 
bring a model, you can use 

589
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,320
anything you want. 
I think it's the most easily 

590
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,000
digestible game. 
Most of my games require kind of

591
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,960
tongue in cheek. 
It requires you to have a ton of

592
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,960
patience. 
It requires you to, when you 

593
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,400
pick up a game and you want to 
play it, it asks the player to 

594
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,760
pay for the system. 
Generally, right? 

595
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,080
Not my games, but generally 
speaking, you have to pay for 

596
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,320
the system. 
It's a paid time and reading the

597
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,000
system, you have to find other 
people that want to play the 

598
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:01,800
game with you. 
Assuming it's not solo play, 

599
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,720
normally it requires a lot. 
So I think when you see more 

600
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,760
corporate games or more, I don't
know, even games that are indie 

601
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:15,880
that want to be a new thing and 
want people to play it, I feel 

602
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,800
like they're overly simplified 
because if you ask too much, 

603
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:24,080
nobody's going to play it right.
But I find that obnoxious and I 

604
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:28,320
think it's annoying that games, 
I mean, I picked up something 

605
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:29,920
out of that, the kind I don't 
matter what it was. 

606
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,720
It's like a Zine and like, oh, 
this looks great. 

607
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,680
The cover was awesome. 
Super India's up by alley. 

608
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,880
I opened it up and I just saw 
how basic the rules were and I 

609
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:40,800
went and I just set it back 
down. 

610
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,920
I even take it. 
I should have took it anyway 

611
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,080
regardless, but I was like add 
no, no, they aren't school. 

612
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,760
But like they didn't, they want 
us to be accessible. 

613
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,240
It was like very easy to read. 
It was very accessible. 

614
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,840
You know, I think if you make 
something too accessible or too.

615
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:02,400
Broad You're writing something 
for everybody, but nobody wants 

616
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,640
it. 
That's why I write something for

617
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,760
nobody, and everybody wants it. 
That's the opposite. 

618
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,560
Yeah, no, that's such a, it's a 
hard line, I guess to to 

619
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,320
straddle if you're especially if
you're making stuff to sell 

620
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,240
stuff, right. 
Because obviously like if you're

621
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,560
making something and it's, it's 
going to be sold, there has to 

622
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,040
be a level of accessibility or 
you know, you're going to get 

623
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:27,920
100 printed and and none of them
are going to sell. 

624
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,440
But I was talking to someone 
recently about Traveler, for 

625
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,120
example, and how I love 1977 
Traveler. 

626
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,960
And part of the reason I love it
is because it's not easy to 

627
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,360
parse. 
It's a, it's a, it's a game 

628
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,240
almost in itself to figure out 
what the game is trying to say. 

629
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,640
And that's really enjoyable. 
It for a game that's from like 

630
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,680
1977. 
It's, you know, it is kind of 

631
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:56,360
harder in 2026 to find games 
like that or partially again, 

632
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,080
because so many people are 
writing games to sell games. 

633
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,440
So that's not really going to 
fly that far. 

634
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,360
But you know, when you're 
writing your games as art pieces

635
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,920
and as As for you, you can do 
that, you can make one reward do

636
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:11,600
that. 
And people can engage with that 

637
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,199
in a way that they like from 
like, you know, third edition 

638
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:18,239
Warhammer Fantasy where you had 
to freaking have 2-3 different 

639
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,199
books just to be able to find 
all the rules and stuff. 

640
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,560
Yeah, yeah. 
I you know, I think that the 

641
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:26,920
less successful something is, 
the more. 

642
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,360
The more you. 
Want to just look at it, the 

643
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,719
easier it is to sell. 
But again, like with all my 

644
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,840
stuff, I make it free to 
download because I want people 

645
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,480
to be able to look at it. 
I won't be able to be able to 

646
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,360
have it and play it at no cost. 
I think that's very important 

647
00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:47,280
because if people want it, 
they're going to illegally 

648
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,880
download it one way or another. 
I'm the same way. 

649
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,320
If I want something, I'm going 
to read it and if I can't pay 

650
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,880
for it and I think it's worth 
it, I'll pay the person, 

651
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,960
especially if it's indie. 
I want to pay indie creators, 

652
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,920
obviously. 
But you know, like I think at 

653
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:03,480
the end of the day, if somebody 
wants something, they're going 

654
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:04,960
to get it. 
So may as well put it out there 

655
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:06,320
for free. 
Let them check it out. 

656
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,560
They don't like it, they don't 
like it. 99% people that look at

657
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,880
my stuff will probably be 
filtered because it's weird or 

658
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,360
me and that's fine. 
You know, I don't, I'm not sure 

659
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,240
when I was selling water ward at
Adepticom, you know, I had all 

660
00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:23,520
my books and I floppy Dr., my 
floppy disks and my CDs and 

661
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,280
everything and I forget who it 
was. 

662
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:31,440
If somebody came up to me and 
said sell me on the game and I 

663
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,840
went, huh, like, well. 
What's your pitch? 

664
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:36,840
You know, sell me on it. 
Like I'm not going to do that. 

665
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,520
You can pick it up and look at 
it and if you think it's like 

666
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,760
you want to check out, you can. 
I told the person right off the 

667
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,880
bat, like get games free online,
you don't have to buy it. 

668
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,520
Like go check it out. 
If you want a physical copy you 

669
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,040
can buy one. 
But the books are, you know, 

670
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,400
they look nice. 
Pretty the CDs are fun to have, 

671
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:57,320
the floppies are fun to display 
to show it off, but you don't 

672
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,240
have to buy it. 
And you guys sat there and 

673
00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:01,400
nodded them hemmed and hawed and
looked at it and went, all 

674
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,840
right, I'll buy 1 and I took it 
20. 

675
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,400
Bucks so you play tested with me
the next day so you know at the 

676
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:10,600
end of the day if people. 
Want something they'll? 

677
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,400
Check it out and you had a great
time. 

678
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,480
So I was really happy to see 
like, oh, thanks for coming and 

679
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:19,880
thanks for trying game out. 
It's important to be it's the 

680
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,800
community aspect, right? 
If it's buying the paywall, 

681
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,040
people aren't going to even get 
through the front door. 

682
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,680
So. 
You're preaching on the choir. 

683
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,000
I I say every other fucking 
episode on the show that like 

684
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,520
anyone like you should make your
games free to download because 

685
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,080
getting people to play the game 
and build a good community 

686
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:43,360
Ranger game is going to take you
a lot farther than making 10 

687
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:44,760
bucks off of like 1 digital 
sale. 

688
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,160
Like it's not even, it's not 
even close. 

689
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,320
It's not even a question. 
The number of people that have 

690
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,560
probably interacted with wanna 
reward because it was free 

691
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,320
online as opposed to having it 
be 1520 bucks or something like 

692
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,360
that is is exponential. 
I was looking at water reward, I

693
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,520
saw even a $1.99 virtual 
download. 

694
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,200
I'd say fuck that, I'm not doing
it. 

695
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,960
Don't find an illegal download 
of the game or ask a friend that

696
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:13,400
has it send me the PDF but. 
Again, like you also have to see

697
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:19,800
like especially in the Andes 
scene, games of style, right? 

698
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,680
I think that I don't mean just 
being the aesthetic of the game,

699
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,160
but if your game is really hip 
and cool, but you have to buy 

700
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,440
it, you have to buy my official 
models, play the game. 

701
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,400
It just comes off as like 
annoying. 

702
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:35,920
That's a common This wasn't an 
indie person. 

703
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,800
This was a couple years ago, 
some booth next to the old grim 

704
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,160
dark alley in Chicago. 
And they were like. 

705
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,240
Hey man, come over here and look
at my game, check it out and he 

706
00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:46,520
was trying to sell me on his 
game and that's a get the fuck 

707
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:48,080
away from me. 
I don't I. 

708
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,040
Don't want to look at this. 
I don't even know what it is. 

709
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:51,160
I don't want anything to do with
it. 

710
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,160
But if I see something like a 
scene that's like on the floor 

711
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,640
of a game, I'm going to pick it 
up and read through the entire 

712
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:58,800
thing because what is this 
thing? 

713
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,400
You know, it's the style. 
Or if it's just a friend of mine

714
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,640
that wrote it and I like that 
person, I want to know what they

715
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,840
wrote. 
So I think I have a backwards 

716
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,040
approach to try to sell my own 
stuff. 

717
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:14,400
If you know Tanner. 
You have the correct approach 

718
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,600
and a lot of people have a 
backwards approach. 

719
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,880
Like we are of the same mind 
when it comes to this. 

720
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:23,640
Like we literally have reviewed 
like triple digits of of games 

721
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:25,720
on this show. 
And every time we can we say 

722
00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:29,240
like it's, it's about people 
actually getting a chance to 

723
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:32,600
play the game. 
Like that's why you know, you're

724
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,320
you're going to have a lot more 
approachability with a free 

725
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,240
digital download than you are 
with anything else. 

726
00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:39,880
And again, building community. 
And if you look at, you know, 

727
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,320
you know, we're, we've done RPG 
is a lot more than skirmish. 

728
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,040
It's something we've more moving
into now. 

729
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,180
But if you look at the biggest 
teach RPGs in like the quote UN 

730
00:38:48,180 --> 00:38:50,680
quote indie or small market 
space right now, all of them 

731
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,560
have free PDFs for their core 
download. 

732
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,440
Like, you know, if you know, so 
it's not. 

733
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:58,720
And then the communities that 
have been built around them. 

734
00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:00,400
When you look at things like 
Mothership, when you look at 

735
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,120
things like Merkborg, when you 
look at things like Mouse 

736
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,640
Shredder, they have these 
massive communities and it's a 

737
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,800
free PDF to download the core 
rules and get it playing in the 

738
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,880
game. 
So the number of indie people in

739
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,560
the scene that do that too is 
great as far as skirmish and 

740
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,120
stuff goes. 
But that's why I can't imagine 

741
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:19,520
everyone that walks in a 
Warhammer store is like, sure, 

742
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:24,280
yeah, I'll pay whatever the fuck
11th edition starter set cost to

743
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,840
to build my fucking army. 
Like it's not going to happen. 

744
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,360
I'll pick up Cauldron or I'll 
pick up anything else. 

745
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,440
You know before before I'll pick
up something like that. 

746
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,000
So you you have the correct 
approach you. 

747
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,800
Know if you to the scene. 
You don't know better. 

748
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:42,760
You know you'll buy the index 
for TRN EDS and I'll be obsolete

749
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,200
in a month when the codex comes 
out. 

750
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,520
Whatever, right? 
People are going to do that when

751
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,000
they first get into the game. 
But once you meet people on the 

752
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,960
scene and you become cool punk 
that can hang out the grub dark 

753
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,760
alley and you're tattooing 28 on
your wrists and all that. 

754
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,520
And you know, once you're at 
that point, you can buy the 

755
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:02,880
indie stuff and be cool. 
But I think again, and that's 

756
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,960
not to put down anybody that 
tattoos the hobby. 

757
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,120
I don't care to. 
Do your life right, But I think 

758
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:13,200
it's, I don't know, I think that
this hobby, it's fascinating, 

759
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,840
but I wouldn't want my games to 
blow up to the. 

760
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,520
Point where it's a morgue Borg 
where everybody knows that. 

761
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:25,560
I think that it's important to 
gatekeep and filter out 99% of 

762
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,040
the hobby because too many 
people water something down that

763
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,080
it makes it less. 
Personal, I think there's a 

764
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:36,120
sweet spot of a couple people to
give a shit and actually try. 

765
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:38,680
You don't want nobody playing a 
game, but you don't want too 

766
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,840
many people either. 
You want you want people that 

767
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:42,960
you can vibe with and you can 
talk to. 

768
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,160
But I don't know, maybe if it 
was making a trillion dollars I 

769
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:49,520
would shut up and just take the 
money. 

770
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,520
I don't know. 
Hey, if, if the line is no money

771
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:56,640
or a trillion dollars, I think a
lot of people would take the 

772
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:58,280
trillion dollars. 
But is that what you feel like 

773
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,200
wanted reward is right now 
'cause like, I know that I was 

774
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,280
like waiting in line to, to, to 
get wanted reward. 

775
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,000
I was like down there every day 
and going so where's Tanner? 

776
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,280
When, when's the book coming 
'cause I love it. 

777
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,000
But when like do you feel like 
that's where you are right now 

778
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,440
with, with your stuff, with your
miniatures, with wanted? 

779
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,440
Are you in a place that you 
enjoy with like the the space 

780
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:22,480
that you want around you? 
Yeah, I mean, I it's funny. 

781
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,280
I don't think I'm an influencer,
a popular person. 

782
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:27,920
I think I'm popular. 
In the scene now. 

783
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,720
But I don't. 
I don't fancy myself an 

784
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:34,880
influencer or a person that I 
don't know. 

785
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,880
I think I influenced people 
without trying to be that. 

786
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,720
Face, I guess I think it's 
important to make friends in the

787
00:41:43,720 --> 00:41:46,520
scene. 
And I don't know, none of them 

788
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,360
just friends. 
But there's there's some like 

789
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,040
young artists, like 1819, 
they're just getting into the 

790
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,600
scene and they're figuring 
things out and they're trying 

791
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:59,440
and sometimes failing and making
their stuff right. 

792
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,240
But part of the joy for me is 
being a kind of a mentoring 

793
00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:05,960
figure of like. 
Now write your own system, do 

794
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,360
your own thing, and you got this
right. 

795
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,040
As a therapist, you learn 
there's many different types of 

796
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,320
relationships and I think that 
that. 

797
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,600
You know, you can be positive 
and friendly, but they're not 

798
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:18,240
your friends. 
They're just people in the scene

799
00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:20,680
that you you mutually respect as
an artist. 

800
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:26,600
And I think that I think that's 
surrounding myself with peers, 

801
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,760
people that I respect through 
their art and through their 

802
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:34,120
contributions to the hobby, as 
well as people who are younger 

803
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,760
artists are excited to become a 
bigger and the scene it become, 

804
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:45,760
you know, niche freaks, peers. 
So yeah, I I think I'm I'm 

805
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:47,000
happy. 
I'm happy. 

806
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,440
He whispered about. 
I think that's what I want to 

807
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:55,160
say, whispered about. 
Yeah, no, you, you, you were 

808
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,720
like, especially until I met 
you, you were, you were kind of 

809
00:42:57,720 --> 00:43:00,680
like this mythological like 
person in the scene of just 

810
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:02,360
like, I had no idea what you 
looked like. 

811
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,400
I know that you sounded like, I 
just saw your crazy miniatures. 

812
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,360
I just saw one reward. 
I just heard these like stories 

813
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,240
about you about like, like 
you're selling a bunch of stuff,

814
00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:12,960
but we'll take anything but 
money kind of thing. 

815
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:13,640
You know what I mean? 
Like. 

816
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:15,240
Just this. 
Yeah, that was what? 

817
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,160
Was that? 
Midnight market I was it wasn't 

818
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,920
even selling, it was trading, 
just trading it in metal models.

819
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,040
So I brought suitcases full of 
things I've like, hobby related 

820
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:28,640
things that I've picked up over 
the years. 

821
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:33,640
And I found a room that wasn't 
being used at Schaumburg Center.

822
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,840
I don't remember the name but 
the one in Chicago. 

823
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:42,160
And I just said anybody that 
trades me enough metal models, 

824
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,760
you could take what you want. 
Like this one's worth 2 Miami, 2

825
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:47,720
metal models and I just had a 
big cardboard box. 

826
00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:49,160
You'll drop them an antique 
something. 

827
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:53,480
And it was a bunch of crap. 
Nobody wanted obscure systems 

828
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,720
and games that I found at Noble 
Knights Clearance Cave or at 

829
00:43:57,720 --> 00:44:00,560
thrift stores or bookstores. 
I still haven't. 

830
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,920
Got them out of it somewhere 
behind me I need to get rid of. 

831
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,360
Yeah, I. 
Don't know, I think that's the 

832
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,160
soul of the scene, right? 
Is the indie? 

833
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,880
Is the the? 
The conversations, the 

834
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,520
friendships, it's about the 
friends you made along the way, 

835
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:17,000
right? 
I think that's important. 

836
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:23,320
People get stuck in me, the 
corporate selling, making a 

837
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:28,120
product, being a named person. 
Or being an influencer I want to

838
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,560
make a YouTube. 
And don't get me wrong, I have a

839
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:35,920
YouTube I just it's all shit 
posts and jokes and satire. 

840
00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:39,160
People don't actually watch it 
but it does exist and you can't 

841
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,240
find it because YouTube my name.
So give that a look sometime 

842
00:44:43,240 --> 00:44:46,160
you'll you'll get a laugh. 
Yeah, no, I'll definitely check 

843
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,080
it out. 
No, you, I mean, I, I, I very 

844
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:53,120
much enjoy that you are very 
aware of who you are and your 

845
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,120
place in the scene. 
And you're like curating the 

846
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,520
space around you to, to maintain
that space. 

847
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:02,240
Because having Someone Like You 
in, in a hobby, someone that 

848
00:45:02,240 --> 00:45:05,480
people couldn't like look 
towards kind of as, like, you 

849
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:06,880
know, like you said about the 
midnight market. 

850
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:08,840
I think that is like a story 
that everyone that interact with

851
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,440
that will tell forever because 
of just how interesting and 

852
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,760
different and cool it is and is 
like inspirational to just 

853
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,160
remember to do like weird cool 
shit. 

854
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,680
So I, I, I will definitely say 
you're like a huge inspiration 

855
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,440
to me in the scene to just 
remember to, to just do weird 

856
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:27,200
cool shit to, to do, to do it as
art because you want to do it, 

857
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:28,320
not because you're trying to 
sell something. 

858
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,200
So I mean, that's how I saw you 
before I met you ended up, I 

859
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,000
mean, still do. 
But then I actually met you as a

860
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,280
person and you became like an 
actual figure. 

861
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,440
It's not just like an abstract 
idea, you know? 

862
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,480
That's I would. 
I think I'd prefer to stay an 

863
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:44,320
abstract idea. 
There's an idea of a Tanner, I 

864
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,960
mean again I think on the on the
thought of tabletop. 

865
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,720
Systems as art pieces, I think 
that's much more important to 

866
00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:56,960
look at games as something that 
we look at because I, I have, 

867
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,000
you're not going. 
To see it behind you as a 

868
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:00,480
bookshelf. 
I don't know, I. 

869
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:01,960
Might. 
Go see in the corner. 

870
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,560
But there's like right over 
there, there's a bookshelf 

871
00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:07,640
system. 
Little little bookshelf full 

872
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:11,240
full of games, and I've read 
maybe two of them completely. 

873
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,200
Like, I'll flip through them, 
I'll look at the art, I'll read.

874
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:15,160
Specific mechanics. 
Oh. 

875
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:16,920
That's unique. 
Oh, that's cool. 

876
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,040
But at the end of the day, I 
don't give a shit about the 

877
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:20,080
entire. 
Book I'm not going. 

878
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,040
To play the game, I'm not going 
to run it for people. 

879
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,720
I just I want to support a 
specific thing and I want to add

880
00:46:24,720 --> 00:46:26,160
it to my collection. 
I want to. 

881
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:31,240
I collect models and huge 
nowadays item it is friends 

882
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,840
models. 
It's not even like, you know, 

883
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,800
official things from some way. 
I just like collecting things. 

884
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:41,200
My friends have sculpted and I'm
woefully behind in my backlog. 

885
00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:44,480
I've got a bunch of stuff from 
Merlin or Kai who's sculpted 

886
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,320
stuff from War Award and he's 
wonderful young man. 

887
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:51,440
He's a sculptor from Germany 
that's, you know, like 20 or 19 

888
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,680
or something and he's incredibly
talented young man. 

889
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,560
I've got so many of his models 
are based on my models. 

890
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:00,880
I haven't painted yet and 
they're right next to my webcam.

891
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,240
My webcam is over them right now
and I feel like shit. 

892
00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:06,440
I I need to catch up because I 
have so many things from friends

893
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,320
that I just I'd rather. 
Keep creating my own. 

894
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:10,800
Thing There's always so much 
time. 

895
00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:13,680
Yeah, no, very. 
And that's very true. 

896
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:15,200
It's just the amount of time 
that you have in a day to 

897
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:20,720
actually to outside of work and 
life and everything to do what 

898
00:47:20,720 --> 00:47:24,080
you want to do and then to also 
get hobby in there as well is 

899
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:26,440
something that I've been trying 
to struggle with a little bit. 

900
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:30,320
But again, speaking, what's 
that? 

901
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:32,840
You say get happy or get hoppy. 
What did you say? 

902
00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:37,040
Oh, no, to to hobby, to to 
hobby, to try to hobby. 

903
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:38,680
Yeah. 
I mean, I would love to try to 

904
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,360
get happy too, but that one's a 
little bit harder than hobby. 

905
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:47,160
But we'll get there. 
Yeah, no, listen, both hobby and

906
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:49,320
happy. 
Yeah, no. 

907
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:51,720
But again, Speaking of systems, 
you did mention you're, you're 

908
00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:53,320
working currently on one right 
now. 

909
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:55,440
So what? 
What? 

910
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:56,840
So what are you, what are you 
working on? 

911
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:58,920
You said you're talking about 
doing a landlord game, a 

912
00:47:58,920 --> 00:47:59,760
slumlord. 
Game. 

913
00:48:00,720 --> 00:48:03,800
It's called Slumlord. 
It's a it's a tabletop game, 

914
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,800
kind of like Teaspoon. 
So it's very loose. 

915
00:48:07,720 --> 00:48:11,160
It's general. 
It's more of a, it's a 

916
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,600
residential simulator where you 
you can model it like the whole 

917
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,480
house style and model rooms and 
whatnot. 

918
00:48:17,720 --> 00:48:22,320
The general idea is you know 
this omnipresent figure, you're 

919
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:27,320
a landlord, and you monitor a 
complex like a a building a 

920
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,240
property. 
And the property is constantly 

921
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:33,840
decaying and falling apart. 
Because that's real life, right?

922
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,920
Everything slowly. 
Decays and pipes leak and you 

923
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:41,000
get a pest. 
Everybody's living. 

924
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:42,880
It should be an apartment. 
Everybody knows what it's like. 

925
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:51,400
So it's a game about simulating 
slice of life, day-to-day stuff.

926
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,520
Kind of like my the pet game 
Teaspoon. 

927
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:55,480
So that's how you'd come to 
every day. 

928
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,040
But instead of having that 
obligation of caring for them, 

929
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,480
I'm trying to write the rules in
such a way. 

930
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,640
Again, it's very work in 
progress currently where you 

931
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:05,200
don't have to really do 
anything. 

932
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:09,800
You only have to check in at the
end of the month to get paid and

933
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,720
then use that to try to fix the 
properties if you keep swelling 

934
00:49:12,720 --> 00:49:14,840
apart. 
But your tenants might not pay 

935
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:16,040
you. 
They may not have the money 

936
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,320
themselves. 
They may just leave overnight. 

937
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,560
You know, you don't really know.
So it's really a simulator for 

938
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:27,600
for emergent narratives. 
It's a lot of journaling and 

939
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,200
writing and it's kind of an 
excuse to hobby. 

940
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:33,200
It's a vehicle to make you 
hobby. 

941
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:37,440
But you don't have to physically
do any of it's scale agnostic. 

942
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,200
So you don't have to do a 
specific scale. 

943
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,760
You can do it in, I don't know, 
12mm if you want to, you can 

944
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:45,880
write it on paper and just do 
paper crafts. 

945
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:48,160
You can do cardboard. 
It doesn't really matter. 

946
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:53,200
So that's, you know, I think 
that's important components of 

947
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:55,720
the game. 
But I've been doing dollhouse 

948
00:49:55,720 --> 00:49:59,800
backgrounds and more characters 
for the photos in the system 

949
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,120
itself. 
And I've been typing rules for 

950
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,160
the game for the past like month
and a half, two months. 

951
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:07,560
Got a lot out. 
There. 

952
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,320
I don't know if any of that 
works yet, so we'll make sure 

953
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,560
the foundation works. 
Yeah. 

954
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,280
Are those the last couple posts 
that you've been posting on 

955
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,320
Instagram? 
I just brought one up on stream 

956
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,320
right now of what looks like 
this apartment building with 

957
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,680
these like fleshy guy in it 
next, like paint cans and stuff.

958
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:26,600
So this is this is for for that 
game. 

959
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:29,120
Yep, Yep. 
It's just that those are just 

960
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:32,520
photos for the game. 
The tenants for me, they're like

961
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:36,000
these kind of I. 
Don't know how much this is like

962
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,120
stuff but when kids. 
Start drawing. 

963
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,760
They draw what's called head 
footers or tadpole people, and 

964
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:43,920
they're like heads with arms and
legs sticking out of them. 

965
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:48,880
They're a ball with wimps and 
after a while they could develop

966
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:52,000
a little more and children start
to draw like stick figures or 

967
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,880
like more human proportions. 
But I really like that component

968
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:57,400
of just. 
Thing with the. 

969
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:58,840
Arms and legs sticking out of 
it. 

970
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:03,120
So though I my overarching kind 
of aesthetics when I sculpt 

971
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:06,120
models, so it's just like a 
thing with arms and legs 

972
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:10,040
sticking out of it. 
So I wanted to, in my game and 

973
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:13,400
my vision for my system, all the
people that live in this 

974
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,120
property are just kind of like 
human heads with arms and legs 

975
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:21,160
sticking out of them. 
But no, I think again, for 

976
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:25,160
anybody that plays the game, the
system can be anything you could

977
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,040
be. 
I already have a few people play

978
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:31,200
testing the general rules 
somebody's doing just humans. 

979
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,080
So they just look like people. 
They look very standard. 

980
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,360
I heard somebody was doing them 
with like kind of furry 

981
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:39,840
characters. 
So they're furries, right? 

982
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,320
There's people that are doing 
them with all kinds. 

983
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,880
It's, it's up to you, right? 
It's what you want your game to 

984
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,720
be. 
It's it's a system I wrote for 

985
00:51:48,720 --> 00:51:50,280
me, but I want everybody to be 
able. 

986
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:54,600
To to customize it to their own,
tailor it to themselves, I 

987
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,000
guess. 
I think that's important. 

988
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,680
Yeah, no. 
And it's, it's, it's interesting

989
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:04,440
that you went from teaspoon to 
slumlord because like you said, 

990
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:06,320
it really is just kind of the 
same thing. 

991
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:09,200
You're like going from taking 
care of like a pet to like, I 

992
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:11,040
guess kind of taking care of 
people. 

993
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:12,960
If you really feel like it, you 
don't. 

994
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:15,120
You don't feed them. 
Right. 

995
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:17,640
And the game. 
Kind of like from day-to-day 

996
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:20,600
there was rules initially that 
would require each player to 

997
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,160
like check in on their same 
meters like hunger, food, The 

998
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,240
Sims, right? 
And I kind of was thinking about

999
00:52:27,240 --> 00:52:29,920
like, well, what if you don't 
really, it's going to be 

1000
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,920
impossible to navigate that many
meters for that many tenants as 

1001
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,600
human, not as a computer. 
So I thought, what if every time

1002
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,560
you peek in on a specific tenant
to see what they're doing, it 

1003
00:52:39,720 --> 00:52:42,880
shuffles around their their 
their hunger, their sleep, 

1004
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,040
because it's assuming they're 
eating and they're sleeping and 

1005
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:47,320
whatnot. 
There are subsystems that keep 

1006
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:49,720
track of how much food is in the
house and that kind of thing, 

1007
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,160
but they'll replenish it at 
their own, They'll work on their

1008
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:53,800
own, they'll do everything on 
their own. 

1009
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:58,320
It's again, it's super loose. 
And it's not going to make you 

1010
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,080
feel like, Oh yeah. 
I didn't feed them today. 

1011
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,960
So they're starving. 
It's it's not, they're not wait 

1012
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:05,960
on you. 
It's not really a pet game. 

1013
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:10,440
It's more of a property 
management social narrative 

1014
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,560
simulator. 
It's about writing. 

1015
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:16,120
It's about seeing different 
people. 

1016
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,960
There's a really complex system 
for generating tenants where you

1017
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:25,000
generate like their their coping
skills, their, you know, their 

1018
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,920
likes, dislikes, their look, 
their age, their relationship to

1019
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,680
other tenants. 
It's a super in depth, really, 

1020
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:35,520
really long system. 
But the few people that play 

1021
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:38,120
test said it's their favorite 
component is just generating 

1022
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:42,400
people seeing who comes up a 
plumber that likes carpet 

1023
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:46,360
beetles or you know, he's 
getting very strange residents 

1024
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:48,760
that live in your property. 
And that's the fun of it, is 

1025
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,760
seeing who's here and what 
happens to them. 

1026
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:57,280
Now that's the most Tanner 
Simpson shit I've ever heard. 

1027
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:01,300
Is like a property management 
game that has like super in 

1028
00:54:01,300 --> 00:54:04,600
depth rules about like character
creation and like who people are

1029
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:06,200
and stuff. 
Like that's incredible. 

1030
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:09,040
But we went from pets to like 
property management. 

1031
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:12,200
Are we going to get like local 
government game like in four to 

1032
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:14,560
five years where you're like in 
charge of like? 

1033
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:19,440
I wanted to write a a. 
It's not off the table yet, but 

1034
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:21,920
there's a sister supplement 
system. 

1035
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:24,480
Sister system supplement. 
Game. 

1036
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:30,160
To our award where it's a legal 
system where you'd have to like.

1037
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,520
Like model A courthouse of 
essentially civilians forget 

1038
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:37,640
like hit by you at crossfire. 
They can sue you and you'd be 

1039
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:41,600
required to be like to show. 
So there would be a very complex

1040
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:45,840
system of jurors and lawyers and
like how the actual there'd be 

1041
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:49,000
evidence from the game where 
photos were taken at the time of

1042
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:51,920
the game to show like the blood 
and you know what I mean, all 

1043
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:54,000
that shit. 
I thought, oh, that'd be so much

1044
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:56,160
fun of like having crooked 
lawyers. 

1045
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,800
You could pay like Better Call 
Saul show up and like try to 

1046
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:02,160
twist things around. 
You might just get jury of 

1047
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:05,320
idiots that are really hard to 
convince even if you did nothing

1048
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:08,600
wrong. 
But as I sat down and started 

1049
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:10,480
writing it, I got really stuck 
immediately. 

1050
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:13,600
I was like, why am I this stuck 
with writing this thing? 

1051
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:15,840
It should be easy. 
Why is it that hard? 

1052
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:17,960
I realized I know nothing about 
legal systems. 

1053
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,680
I know nothing. 
And it's not going to be like an

1054
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:22,280
American legal. 
I want to be a very. 

1055
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:27,840
Broad like sci-fi amalgamation. 
Once, but I don't know enough 

1056
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,560
about it, so I don't want to sit
down and write a game about 

1057
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:32,840
something I don't know if you're
going to write a system you 

1058
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,560
should know about. 
His system about things. 

1059
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,720
So the pet game, I know a lot 
about keeping pets, right? 

1060
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:42,200
One reward. 
It's easy because everybody's 

1061
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,240
played sci-fi shooting games. 
It's easy. 

1062
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:47,760
It's easy to write rules for it.
Living in a shitty apartment. 

1063
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:51,920
Every hobbyist has lived in a 
shitty apartment, right? 

1064
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:54,440
Every hobbyist sad people have 
things that are falling apart 

1065
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:56,080
and whatnot. 
It's part of it, right? 

1066
00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:00,960
So it's easy to write rules 
about black mold because you've 

1067
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:06,560
been there, right? 
So I think that yeah, any game I

1068
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:11,040
write, I think at its core it's 
going to be very customizable 

1069
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:14,000
and curtailed to that person 
that's picking up and reading 

1070
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:19,160
the book. 
The game's going to be a toolbox

1071
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:21,640
to customize and make your own 
thing out of it. 

1072
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:25,000
I think overall in the future 
specifically, I'd like my 

1073
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:29,240
systems to be more pretty. 
I want people to be able to look

1074
00:56:29,240 --> 00:56:31,920
at it and have an artistic, like
all the stuff. 

1075
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:34,720
Like you can see the fishing 
game, it's very just black and 

1076
00:56:34,720 --> 00:56:36,080
white. 
It's literally black and white 

1077
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:40,920
and scanned and crusty. 
It's very, I don't like putting 

1078
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:44,040
too much art and things because 
if I do, it gives you an idea of

1079
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:48,320
what it's supposed to be. 
So yeah, in this game the only 

1080
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:52,960
illustrations are like art of my
face, my friend's faces on fish 

1081
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:57,200
overlaid. 
But again, I think like with one

1082
00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:00,920
reward, I just got plastic blue 
art and it was of the models I 

1083
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:03,920
made for my game, right? 
But other people that played the

1084
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:06,840
game made it grim dark. 
And it's not a grim dark game. 

1085
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:10,200
It's very much not. 
But I've seen people use models 

1086
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:13,640
from their 40K shit or 
Neckerboud or whatever, and it 

1087
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:15,360
gives entire aesthetic that 
feel. 

1088
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:18,720
Other people have used very 
bright colors, reviews, Legos or

1089
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:19,640
whatever. 
They use whatever. 

1090
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:21,880
They want and it. 
Becomes their version of the 

1091
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:23,920
game. 
Same with teaspoons somebody 

1092
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:29,440
used well, somebody who like 
like felt it all their their 

1093
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:32,400
pets and the closure. 
So it was all felt it. 

1094
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:36,160
Somebody did it with paper 
crafts where it was all 2D and 

1095
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:39,240
it was like you can see it a 
piece of paper that ripped out 

1096
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:40,640
and cut out and they could move 
it. 

1097
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:46,280
It's all every game within my 
game is going to be customized 

1098
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:48,360
to the person playing it. 
And that's what makes it 

1099
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:50,960
personal. 
That's what makes people invest 

1100
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:54,320
it when it's not the same shit 
to every person. 

1101
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:59,400
It has to be unique, it has to 
be distinct, and it has to push 

1102
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:05,840
the player into being more 
creative and showing what they 

1103
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,080
have. 
I hope that my systems teach 

1104
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:10,440
people that they could create 
their own systems and they could

1105
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:12,920
do their own thing. 
That's the most important part 

1106
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:15,280
for me because that's what the 
future of the hobby is. 

1107
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:16,800
And I want to read those 
systems. 

1108
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:20,120
I want to see what you make. 
I push people on my Discord 

1109
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:22,440
every day to make their own 
stuff and to write their own 

1110
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:24,040
games. 
The curse of the Try, even 

1111
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:26,040
though they haven't. 
Because anybody can do it. 

1112
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:30,760
Anybody can do it. 
Do you think that you the way 

1113
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:32,800
that you have written some of 
your systems in the past, like 

1114
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:36,000
for example, like, you know, 
deep dark fishing fantasy, you 

1115
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:37,960
like it's a theoretical game 
that like kind of works. 

1116
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:43,200
Do you do you? 
It's funny because I, I, when I 

1117
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:44,960
message you on Instagram, that's
literally the first thing you 

1118
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:46,040
said. 
You're just like, hey, cool, 

1119
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:47,680
thanks for buying it. 
It kind of works. 

1120
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,040
So like, don't get frustrated. 
It kind of works. 

1121
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:55,680
Do you put that into your games 
on purpose, like to kind of 

1122
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:58,480
force that? 
Because in TGRPGSA lot of people

1123
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:00,680
will would put something in the 
beginning of the game that says 

1124
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:02,440
like the rules are what you make
of them. 

1125
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:04,920
If it doesn't work, do whatever.
It's just like tacit permission 

1126
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:09,680
that they like give to it. 
But do you find with when you're

1127
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:13,120
making systems, do you make them
like want a reward where it's 

1128
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:15,040
something that you have to put a
lot of work in to kind of like 

1129
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:17,840
force that kind of realization 
that people can make it their 

1130
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:18,960
own? 
Or is that just something that 

1131
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:22,160
comes from your rules writing? 
I think this comes from the 

1132
00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:26,760
question of rulings over rules 
as an old school mindset of 

1133
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:30,320
playing, right in modern day 
tabletop game design. 

1134
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:33,640
It's very much play the game to 
the letter and there's rules 

1135
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,240
lawyers right there. 
It's not exactly. 

1136
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:38,160
And there's many reasons for 
that. 

1137
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:40,600
And you look at competitive 
Warhammer, right? 

1138
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:44,000
There are judges, there are 
people that are that are making 

1139
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:47,360
sure something is functioning as
it's supposed to, right? 

1140
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:50,440
You're not supposed to be able 
to, to tweak the rules of bandit

1141
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:52,760
because that would be unfair. 
Somebody would lose and they 

1142
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:55,000
should have won. 
And I don't think games are 

1143
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:58,000
about losing and winning. 
I think, well, games are, but I 

1144
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,000
don't think table five games I 
want to engage with should be 

1145
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:03,040
about winning or losing. 
It should be about telling a 

1146
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:05,400
narrative. 
Part of why I do in therapy is 

1147
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:07,560
narrative therapy because I 
really like stories. 

1148
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:09,480
I really like learning about 
lives of people. 

1149
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:14,160
I like helping people. 
Reframe and look at worlds, 

1150
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:17,480
their life and the world from 
another perspective, especially 

1151
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:22,360
when they were risen in such a 
way that, you know, leads to 

1152
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:23,360
problems. 
We'll see. 

1153
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:26,760
And I think that when you're 
able to look at tabletop games 

1154
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:29,200
from the perspective level, it's
not about winning and losing. 

1155
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:32,120
So why am I holding this book 
again? 

1156
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:34,960
For me, it's because I want to 
learn about it, because it's 

1157
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:37,080
from a friend, because I care 
about the person. 

1158
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:40,200
Or I like the art. 
I think the art is beautiful. 

1159
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:43,160
In this most recent game, I'm 
writing some more and I'm going 

1160
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:46,360
to be commissioning artists I 
really look up to to do the art 

1161
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:49,360
in a very specific way that I 
envisioned the game to be and 

1162
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:50,880
how I. 
Would want to open the book and 

1163
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:52,720
look through it. 
I want to be proud of what I put

1164
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:55,800
out there as a more. 
When I say polished, I don't 

1165
01:00:55,800 --> 01:01:00,240
mean mechanically. 
I mean like as a book. 

1166
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:02,840
I want to be proud of a physical
thing in my hand. 

1167
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:05,880
So Wonder was the first time 
I've had a book that looks nice,

1168
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:08,160
that actually feels nice in my 
hands. 

1169
01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:10,480
And I'm not selling the book 
too, because you can't even buy 

1170
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:13,440
it if you wanted to, but you 
know what I mean. 

1171
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:15,840
Like it's, I think that's 
important. 

1172
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:19,840
I think it's very important to 
have a distinct aesthetic that 

1173
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:22,240
make people want to open it up 
when they open it up. 

1174
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:24,600
One award too. 
It's pretty blank. 

1175
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,960
All the pages are very white and
there's a few illustrations that

1176
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:31,720
give you an idea of. 
My version of the game, but 

1177
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:34,440
again, that's intentional, at 
least for one reward, because I 

1178
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:37,560
want you to fill in with your 
own characters. 

1179
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:41,240
I want you to make your own game
out of my gear. 

1180
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:44,040
And if I put too much art in it,
then it's going to say this is 

1181
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:47,360
what the game is and that's not 
so as far as the rules go. 

1182
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:51,200
And to answer your question 
first, I'm not a. 

1183
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:53,480
Talented rules writer. 
I don't do balancing. 

1184
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:55,640
I don't care about that. 
It doesn't matter. 

1185
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:58,360
For me, it's a concept, for me 
it's. 

1186
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:01,640
It's not a. 
Competitive game, you're not 

1187
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:04,120
going to, you can't try and that
would be hysterical to see a 

1188
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:06,960
tournament and won award. 
I would love to watch people try

1189
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:11,040
to optimize the meta game again 
that fights you to not do that, 

1190
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:13,520
but I would I would love to see.
I think it'd be really funny. 

1191
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:18,800
That's an ironic thing, right? 
But no, I think, I think that 

1192
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:22,520
when you write rules that fall 
apart and don't work, you can 

1193
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:24,640
let them know in the beginning 
and say, hey, I don't want you 

1194
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:28,000
to buy this game looking for a 
competitive, looking for 

1195
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:30,080
something that it really isn't, 
because I don't want you to pay 

1196
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:32,880
for something you don't want. 
In fact, the fishing game 

1197
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:35,760
ironically on the back says this
is a free system. 

1198
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:40,080
Scan the barcode to give me 
Milla pipe or something because 

1199
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:42,240
the barcode would lead to my 
PayPal if you scanned it. 

1200
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:46,000
Apparently I used a website to 
generate the barcode that would 

1201
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:47,840
lead you to a link. 
You've scanned it. 

1202
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:50,360
I don't know if it works. 
I haven't scanned it yet, but 

1203
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:53,160
supposedly barcode readers can 
do that. 

1204
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:55,760
I don't know. 
Again, I might have compressed 

1205
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:59,760
with the barcode itself too, so 
it might just not work because I

1206
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:03,840
I squished it in Ms. Paint, but 
I don't know. 

1207
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:08,440
Supposed to lead to my PayPal. 
Yeah, I think if people know 

1208
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:10,840
what they're getting into, you 
know, and they know they 

1209
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:13,360
understand who I am, that's 
important. 

1210
01:03:13,680 --> 01:03:16,400
If you buy my game, you don't 
know who I am and you just pick 

1211
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:18,920
it up. 
As you want to play Necromunda 

1212
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:21,040
more time, you can probably a 
little bump. 

1213
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:27,360
It's not what you want. 
It's they're all jokes. 

1214
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:29,360
Like we said before, they're all
jokes. 

1215
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:37,120
Yeah, I mean, listen, you but 
you can tell good jokes like 

1216
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:38,720
comedians are a thing, you know 
what I mean? 

1217
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:41,160
Like that's that's that's 
important too. 

1218
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:44,280
You know, like there there is a 
very big difference, I think, 

1219
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:50,440
between like a joke and between 
making the focus of the game on 

1220
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:54,360
the the vibes and the experience
as opposed to not necessarily 

1221
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:58,600
the rules is written. 
And so it's not, you know, I 

1222
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:00,920
definitely wouldn't say anything
that you that you have made is a

1223
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:04,040
joke. 
Every bit of it is enjoyable and

1224
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:07,080
it as a whole tells a story of a
lot of the way that you feel 

1225
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:08,840
about games just by being able 
to read it. 

1226
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:13,160
And I enjoy them immensely. 
Like that's the the reason I 

1227
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:16,240
fell in love with one reward was
just how out there it is and 

1228
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:19,400
like how it forces you to engage
with it. 

1229
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:25,680
And, and I just, I again, I hope
that more people see the, what 

1230
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:28,480
you do and the reason why you do
the things that you do as like a

1231
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:32,400
beacon for like what could be 
and should be, you know, at 

1232
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:34,480
least part of everyone's hobby 
experience. 

1233
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:40,120
I've been saying it forever, but
Grim Dark and 28 is that I it's 

1234
01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:42,560
creative dead end. 
It's a black hole that sucks you

1235
01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:46,840
into it and it leads to people 
just creating the same shit, 

1236
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:50,520
regurgitating it right. 
I'm done with the mod blood gore

1237
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:52,280
no more. 
I'm done with it. 

1238
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:55,120
I think you know the 28th scale 
is fine. 

1239
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:58,680
Nothing against it personally, 
but people especially with the 

1240
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:01,680
the naming convention to .28 at 
the end of the system. 

1241
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:04,480
Fuck that, don't do it. 
If you're listening to this 

1242
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:06,920
podcast, you listen me talk. 
I've said this a million times. 

1243
01:05:06,920 --> 01:05:08,760
Do not put 28 out of your 
system. 

1244
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:12,120
Name it something unique. 
Name it something that gives you

1245
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:16,160
an idea of what the game is. 
You don't need to say it's a 28.

1246
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:21,160
Say oh I can have my 28mm models
will work perfect it could be 28

1247
01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:24,040
scale without saying 28 damn it 
anyway I. 

1248
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:28,400
Will say hey no, I will say I'm 
an edgelord piece of shit. 

1249
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:33,560
I love modern blood and guts 
forever but you just can't. 

1250
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:34,760
You can't. 
Make. 

1251
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:37,560
That your whole, you can't make 
that your whole thing. 

1252
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:39,840
You're allowed to engage with it
as long as it's not the only 

1253
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:42,680
thing you engage with. 
Because, you know, I like dark 

1254
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:44,360
shit. 
But if, if, if everything is 

1255
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:49,040
dark, there is no tone, there is
no variation, there is no like 

1256
01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:51,640
nothing is dark if everything is
dark and nothing's light if 

1257
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:54,520
everything is light. 
So I will happily stack one 

1258
01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:58,120
reward right next to all my 
other my grim dark bullshit so I

1259
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:01,360
can see the brightness next to 
it and know that there is there 

1260
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:03,920
is something else out there. 
I'm going to make sure this is 

1261
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:07,760
next to the most grim dark 28 
thing on my shelf, just so just 

1262
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:09,880
so you know. 
There needs to be. 

1263
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:14,760
There needs to be it. 
There can't be the void of, you 

1264
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:16,520
know, there needs to be grim 
dark, there needs to be 

1265
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:18,640
Necromuda. 
So it filters out the people I 

1266
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:21,080
don't want to play with. 
You know what I mean? 

1267
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:25,600
Joking aside, I think again I I 
talked to a lot of mad shits the

1268
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:27,920
the grim dark and. 20 and 
everything but. 

1269
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:30,920
You know, if you enjoy something
then why not? 

1270
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:33,680
I'm not going to. 
Pooh, Pooh, your, you know, your

1271
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:35,440
aesthetic. 
I just think that it's 

1272
01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:39,240
especially an hour in DC and I 
think that it's so overplayed. 

1273
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:42,600
And so assumed with shit like 
Tragic Crusade turn up 28. 

1274
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:47,040
Nothing against the games 
themselves, but it's it's mud, 

1275
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:50,760
it's it's blood. 
At least turn up 28 as humor, 

1276
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:52,320
right? 
I mean, it's a little more 

1277
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:55,640
light, but still it falls in the
same trappings. 

1278
01:06:55,640 --> 01:07:00,320
I think encourage. 
I mean, I won't go to tangent 

1279
01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:03,240
with this, but if you look at 
turn up 28 right, I got Max 

1280
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:06,160
props to you. 
I've talked to them many times. 

1281
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:13,800
He's a he's a nice guy, but the 
game started as a make your own 

1282
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:16,440
war band super distinct and when
they're. 

1283
01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:19,840
First coming out you'd see these
Instagram posts of the most 

1284
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:23,960
beautiful conversions or 
lovingly made and like. 

1285
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:26,440
It took a very long time and a 
lot of patience. 

1286
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:31,840
And I don't remember who it was,
there was a 3D printed SCL pack 

1287
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:33,600
of the helmets of the pointed 
noses. 

1288
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:40,200
And after that I released every 
model was like Perry historical 

1289
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:43,760
miniatures Napoleonics with the 
same 3D printed head on. 

1290
01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:48,240
And while yes, that is the 
fastest way to go about it and 

1291
01:07:48,240 --> 01:07:51,800
to get it looking like the 
system in the book again, it 

1292
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:56,120
kind of removed that soul, I 
hate to say soul versus 

1293
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:58,560
soulless, but it removed that 
initial. 

1294
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:01,840
Every model is unique and it 
takes a lot of time and thought,

1295
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:04,720
which you can still do again, 
it's not like you can anymore, 

1296
01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:07,000
but it removed that from it, 
right? 

1297
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:10,080
I think when I saw trench 
Crusade stuff people are talking

1298
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:11,840
about, oh, it's a new thing, 
it's hot, it's. 

1299
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:15,280
Cool. 
And I don't know, I just look at

1300
01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:18,760
it, it's just more of Warhammer,
more grim dark, and I just don't

1301
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:20,399
care. 
I don't give a shit. 

1302
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:23,160
It's on. 
It's not appealing to me. 

1303
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:26,640
But again, I'm not the I'm not 
the average hobbyist. 

1304
01:08:26,640 --> 01:08:28,399
I'm writing games about being a 
landlord. 

1305
01:08:28,399 --> 01:08:32,439
So if if that's the kind of 
thing you're into, you know, 

1306
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:36,200
write your own games, you know, 
do your own listen talking about

1307
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:39,960
that. 
No, I, I hear what you're 

1308
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:41,240
saying. 
I, you know, and I don't 

1309
01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:43,080
disagree about Trent. 
You're saying, listen, I love 

1310
01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:46,319
dark, you know, bullshit and and
mud and blood and guts and stuff

1311
01:08:46,319 --> 01:08:47,880
like that. 
But I've, you know, I've read 

1312
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:51,720
enough like dark Christian, like
fantasy forever. 

1313
01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:55,840
I don't need more World War One.
I I appreciate the game. 

1314
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:58,880
I back to the Kickstarter, but 
as soon as I got it, I was like,

1315
01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:01,240
okay, like that. 
Like, well, maybe I'll get to it

1316
01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:05,439
eventually. 
I, I do, I, I've never actually 

1317
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:08,760
played 40K. 
I do enjoy the books. 

1318
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:11,200
I like all the different 
factions and I do think that 

1319
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:13,960
some of the authors still can be
a little bit tongue in cheek. 

1320
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:15,840
I wish they were more so like 
the older books. 

1321
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:17,040
But you know, I hear what you're
saying. 

1322
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:18,720
Like I said, I, I think that 
everything has to be in 

1323
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:22,120
moderation and I understand why 
so many people in the scene 

1324
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:25,160
enjoy Grim dark. 
I very much do. 

1325
01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:28,640
But I can also appreciate 1A 
reward. 

1326
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:31,200
I can also appreciate and be 
looking forward to the slumlord 

1327
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:34,640
game because again, you can't 
have everything be one note or 

1328
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:36,680
or nothing. 
Nothing matters and nothing, 

1329
01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:38,920
nothing is different or 
interesting. 

1330
01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:46,880
So, you know, it is what it is. 
Yeah, that's, you know, and 

1331
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:49,120
what's funny is I love all the 
grim dark bullshit and stuff. 

1332
01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:50,840
And then my first game was a 
Western. 

1333
01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:53,720
So, you know, it's, it's at 
least, you know, just something 

1334
01:09:53,720 --> 01:09:55,720
a little different. 
So we'll take it from there. 

1335
01:09:56,360 --> 01:09:59,760
But Speaking of slumlord games, 
Speaking of one of awards, 

1336
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:02,680
Speaking of like, all of your 
things, where can people find 

1337
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:06,040
what they're allowed to get from
you on the Internet? 

1338
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:10,520
Well. 
I don't know just mess with you 

1339
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:11,920
on Instagram and I'll link you 
to it. 

1340
01:10:11,920 --> 01:10:15,480
I guess I don't really have like
a a spot. 

1341
01:10:15,480 --> 01:10:19,120
I think I do have like an itch 
dot IO with a few of the PDFs on

1342
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:20,200
it. 
I need to update it. 

1343
01:10:20,440 --> 01:10:25,440
Wanna reward the PDF is free. 
It's hosted on there's a website

1344
01:10:25,440 --> 01:10:31,080
that you can go to Kudong POODON
g.boards.net. 

1345
01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:34,560
We'll link you to there's a 
forum for it that nobody uses, 

1346
01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:37,280
but it's there. 
God bless Gabe. 

1347
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:39,120
He pays like a dollar a year or 
something. 

1348
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:42,120
I don't know how much he pays, 
but he pays for it to be hosted 

1349
01:10:42,480 --> 01:10:45,000
and it's there. 
Maybe someday when it really 

1350
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:47,080
takes off, it'll boom and people
will use it. 

1351
01:10:47,440 --> 01:10:50,720
But there's also generators for 
like random weapons and random 

1352
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:51,880
things. 
You just click a button to 

1353
01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:56,560
randomly generates targets and 
you know little tools that are 

1354
01:10:56,560 --> 01:10:59,440
on the websites for fun, but the
rules are free to download 

1355
01:10:59,440 --> 01:11:01,080
there. 
There's a link to the discord. 

1356
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:04,480
I have a a channel that's just 
one reward. 

1357
01:11:04,480 --> 01:11:06,360
It's all my hobby friends 
talking. 

1358
01:11:06,360 --> 01:11:08,760
It's not a huge thing but there 
are rules for the game and 

1359
01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:10,360
people sometimes post playing 
the game. 

1360
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:12,640
So I'm more just DM me if you 
want to play that. 

1361
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:15,960
So there's a tiny discord with 
like 10 people on it, people 

1362
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:18,960
trying it. 
But again, it's so far in the 

1363
01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:23,240
process of being built that it 
really doesn't exist yet. 

1364
01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:26,280
It's just an idea that I'm still
flushing out and I'll be working

1365
01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:29,480
on it for probably a year or 
two, depending on how fast I get

1366
01:11:29,480 --> 01:11:31,760
through it and how much 
motivation and energy it is. 

1367
01:11:32,480 --> 01:11:35,280
But that's what anything I do in
this hobby, I get a surge of 

1368
01:11:35,280 --> 01:11:37,080
energy. 
I get really excited to work on 

1369
01:11:37,080 --> 01:11:41,320
it and I, I keep at it for a 
long time until I go, fuck this.

1370
01:11:41,360 --> 01:11:46,160
I move on to something else. 
I actually almost wrote a entire

1371
01:11:46,160 --> 01:11:50,080
game about hunting like, just 
like a satirical hunting game. 

1372
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:54,640
And I started the process and I 
got a good bit into it. 

1373
01:11:56,480 --> 01:11:59,160
Kind of like the. 
Cabela's hunting games but kind 

1374
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:01,680
of water award with deep dark 
fishing fantasy where you would 

1375
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:04,320
generate the woods and monsters 
that come out of it would be 

1376
01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:08,400
randomly generated and you'd 
have to hunt bizarre foreign. 

1377
01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:12,600
Things to see how big they are 
cooperative and I was really 

1378
01:12:12,600 --> 01:12:15,360
excited inspired because I 
thought a satire on hunting 

1379
01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:18,400
would be funny but then I got it
got into this idea of like 

1380
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:20,720
what's still shooting shit, I 
don't want to write another game

1381
01:12:20,720 --> 01:12:24,480
with shooting and then I was 
kind of in a weird slump and. 

1382
01:12:25,440 --> 01:12:27,680
I got fired for slum ward when? 
I'm going to do that. 

1383
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:30,240
I'm out. 
Until I'm bored, I guess I'll 

1384
01:12:30,240 --> 01:12:33,920
just keep doing this and I think
it's going to be a minute until 

1385
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:35,760
I get bored with us. 
I'm very excited about play 

1386
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:37,320
testing, at seeing where it 
goes. 

1387
01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:44,200
So if you're watching, yeah. 
I'll be shooting you Adm to to 

1388
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:47,560
to try to play test. 
It sounds incredible and the. 

1389
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:51,760
It's all in notepad files and I 
didn't realize the formatting 

1390
01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:54,600
gets messed up when you move it 
to somebody's computer. 

1391
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:57,040
My computer. 
Is fine, but when you put it on 

1392
01:12:57,040 --> 01:13:00,160
somebody else's the tabbing is 
messed up for every table. 

1393
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:03,960
So they all like jumbled up and 
it's really hard to. 

1394
01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:07,000
It's hard to play as as a 
current. 

1395
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:10,280
State. 
Anyone that knows your stuff 

1396
01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:13,160
would be completely unsurprised 
to get a notepad file that is 

1397
01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:15,040
then completely misformatted and
stuff. 

1398
01:13:15,040 --> 01:13:18,600
So but hey, listen, I really 
appreciate you coming on the 

1399
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:21,760
show again. 
I you, you know, you are an 

1400
01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:26,040
inspiration to me because of the
way that you think about and now

1401
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:28,360
actually getting a chance to sit
down and, and talk to you like 

1402
01:13:28,360 --> 01:13:30,320
even more. 
So like I, I really, really 

1403
01:13:30,320 --> 01:13:33,920
enjoy the way that you interact 
with games and the way that you 

1404
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:37,200
or even positioning yourself as 
like a mentor in the space to, 

1405
01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:40,280
to, to try to encourage people 
to think about games. 

1406
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:42,840
And it's, it's wonderful. 
I wish more people thought about

1407
01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:46,320
that and thought that way, not 
even just in table top scene, 

1408
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:48,840
but in TTRBGS as well. 
So I just want to say like, I 

1409
01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:51,800
really appreciate what you do 
And I and I, I'm very much 

1410
01:13:51,800 --> 01:13:55,400
looking forward to Slumlord. 
You know, David Lynch says 

1411
01:13:56,400 --> 01:14:00,840
movies are moving paintings. 
And I think that tabletop games 

1412
01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:03,600
are so much more than just 
shooting. 

1413
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:07,240
I think there's so much more 
than grim dark. 

1414
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:10,040
And I think beyond, even if it 
is grim dark, it's the 

1415
01:14:10,040 --> 01:14:11,800
community. 
It's the friends we made along 

1416
01:14:11,800 --> 01:14:13,440
the way. 
It's the people on the scene 

1417
01:14:13,440 --> 01:14:15,240
that really make the community 
what it is. 

1418
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:20,000
If it wasn't for each other and 
our our shared excuse to 

1419
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:23,600
socialize and have something in 
common, you know, what's the 

1420
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:25,800
point of any of this stuff 
coping? 

1421
01:14:26,720 --> 01:14:28,640
I mean, I can get a whole 
conversation about that and I 

1422
01:14:28,640 --> 01:14:31,720
won't, right? 
Distraction, focus. 

1423
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:34,600
But I mean, yeah, I don't know, 
man. 

1424
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:38,440
I'm glad to be on the podcast. 
Make your own games if you're 

1425
01:14:38,440 --> 01:14:42,560
listening to me. 
Write your own stuff, get 

1426
01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:47,040
inspired, watch a movie, you 
know, don't do something that 

1427
01:14:47,040 --> 01:14:48,360
makes you want to do your own 
thing. 

1428
01:14:48,440 --> 01:14:51,840
And DM me it so I could play or 
at least look at it. 

1429
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:53,800
Put in my bookshelf. 
There you go. 

1430
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:56,600
So once again, thank you so much
for being on the show. 

1431
01:14:57,200 --> 01:15:00,320
I'll make sure all the links to 
the Internet are where they are.

1432
01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:03,560
You know, people, you know, this
isn't your first podcast, but 

1433
01:15:03,680 --> 01:15:05,440
thank you so much. 
And that's going to be us for 

1434
01:15:05,440 --> 01:15:06,760
today. 
So appreciate you all listening 

1435
01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:08,520
and we will see you all later. 
Bye.