Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll Podcast.
My name is Ryan. And I'm your favorite
radioactive vampire. And today, we're joined by a
very special guest that is Evidya Valedi.
How are you doing today? I'm doing really good actually.
It's, it's, it's a nice day. It's a rainy day here in
Brooklyn. But usually I'm not a fan of the
rainy days but it's like a chill vibe.
I like it. Yeah, big fan of that.
Yeah, I I love the rain because it's as close as you're going to
get to nighttime during the daytime, which is my preferred
part of the day. Yeah, Real Vampire Coast.
Yeah. It is.
It's like 65 right now at 10:00 in the morning here on the West
Coast and sunny. So This is why I'm on the West
Coast. But but yeah, that thank you so
much for coming on. We've been a fan of yours for
for quite a long time. We got a bunch of stuff to talk
about today. But just in case anyone out
there has a misfortune of not knowing who you are, what tell
us a little bit about yourself and and what people might might
know you best for. Yeah, well, like I said, my name
is Vidita Valetti AEC him pronounce my.
I am a game designer and a games educator also.
I teach game design at a college and yeah.
That's that's what I. Love doing.
I love making games and I love doing stuff.
You probably know me from well from here.
You probably know me from Blood being Badlands for the weekly
school crew. And then I've also released
games like Space Goblins, which have been in a bunch of bundles
you probably own. And Elaine Wants Magic, which is
a game that's crowdfunding right now you've probably heard of as
the marketing push hopefully got to you.
Yeah, I don't know. I make a lot of stuff.
Space Routine Stars is also a game of mind that I think is
kind of a little out there for people to know what some recent
announcements so. I make a lot of games.
So you might know me from a few things, but yeah.
After I have I have space goblins somewhere I want to try
to find it but these giant gaps in my shelves are because I
reorganized and it's just in piles in my living room.
So I could not find the pile that contained your stuff.
I was going to try to grab it, but yeah, like we said, been a
fan of yours for a long time. What did we we Just before the
stream started, I asked Hunter what episode we did blood New
Badlands on. I forget now.
Episode 90. 595 so. About 100 episodes ago of of our
actual reviews, not of our everything else we do, but of
the reviews. 100 reviews ago. And we were huge fan of bloody
Badlands and I think that our biggest critique was that there
wasn't enough and we wanted more And and I feel like that we said
we were going to talk about it. So before we get to a land once
magic, we do want to talk about some other stuff getting up to
that. So why don't we just start with
that? What when we get some more blood
beam Badlands? Is that anything that you can
talk about? Because I.
Can talk about it. I'm pretty sure I can talk about
it. I don't think it's hidden.
I mean, our timeline's a little off, but like, Blood Beam.
Badlands is being published by world champ Gameco.
Match made in heaven for me at. Least of course, I'm like, I
would want nobody else to touch that game, frankly.
And. I think like, yeah.
Our timeline's a little off because we've both just been
really busy with stuff and just trying to figure out what our
2025 looks like. But it's like in like, I mean
like it's I'm testing, I'm still testing some new stuff with it.
It needs like kind of a dev pass because I think the thing with
loving Badlands is I. I really love.
It, and I like writing for it. It's a game that I just get
excited to make things for and so I actually need to like a
moment to be like, am I writing too much?
Like I I actually think I need to like and it's actually
something that I think that y'all said that I really like
that kind of helped kind of hone it a bit.
Was like I I know in like your review that you're like this
feels like it would be a really like it doesn't need to be a
ton. It like a small Zine or just
like a smaller book that gets it to the table quick is like
something that I remember y'all saying like it just needs it
just needs like a little bit more and good layout and
something that's easy to just like get in your hand and get on
the table. And I like remember really
resonating with that. And I've had to keep that in my
brain to be like. This can't be like I I'm not
making 150. Pages of something or 200 pages
of something like I I want this to be And Adam had very similar
things where he was like, just make it like the base game.
And then any all of your other ideas you just release for fun
or you you know, can do more of like this doesn't need to be a
one off game. And so that's kind of where it's
in in development is I'm like. Is this a base game thing or do
I scrap it and like leave it for maybe later and release the
Donuts or something? Yeah, I love that Adam is very
good at making appropriately sized games, so.
Yeah, the bloat is real and Adam and.
Will Yopst is editing, and so Will was also cool.
Yeah. You don't want this to get too
big. I'm like, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, tell me. Tell me where to stop please.
Yeah, when you start thinking that, damn, maybe it's getting
past like perfect bout and this might need to be like a
hardback, I think maybe you're probably at the point where it's
too much. Yeah.
I mean, we, we, we've never like like tangent, welcome to the
show. We've never been shy about being
like, I don't fucking like big books.
I just don't. I think it's pointless if you
give me more stuff than I can possibly parse in in the
sitting. It's great to have like the
entire toolkit for everything you'll ever need in the entire
world. But also you could just give me
the stuff that I need and then give me the other stuff later.
Like I don't, I don't want all of all of it.
I, I think like, personally for me, I think Varn is one of the
best produced games ever in the original Zine format.
And that's what I really love is like, you got VAR and you could
play the hell out of it. And then the next three zines
just made it bigger and better. And I, I'm always going to be a
fan of just give me the Zine that I need to play at the table
and then give me the stuff that I need aside from that.
I don't want 400 pages at one time.
It's not a table book at that point, but teach their album.
Listen, if you want to make a 400 page book, we'll read it and
have opinions about it. But you know.
Well, I mean, it's it's about. Like because I think I'm the
same words I like, I want to get something to table as quick as
possible. And so I read this maybe like a
year ago, I actually for the first time actually read Blades
in the Dark start to end because I was running it for the first
time. And so I was like, well, I
should maybe actually know what this fucking game is rather than
just what people have told me in osmosis.
And then or like that I've played as a player and there was
a lot of stuff in there that I was like, this is really
fascinating. I think this game I.
Think this book could be? 15% smaller, yeah.
And that's like, I feel like I'm also pulling my punch a bit
where it should be. I think like 20% they're smaller
than these. Sections in that book that are
in fact repeated, so yeah. I.
Yeah, we'll be a little bit. I don't think we've been shy
about our critique of. I think Blades is a great game
and an awful book. I think you could chop about 150
pages out of it and it would be the exact same fucking game.
But you know, to to each their own.
We're not going to harp on it too much.
I love so much of what John Harper does.
World of Dungeons is one of my favorite games of all time.
So listen, we got we, we have a lot of friends that are blades
fans. So teach their own.
It's it doesn't need to be that big.
Neither does Apocalypse World, but.
Also read Apocalypse World kind of cover to cover and.
I do think that that book is impeccable.
There's some incredible fucking things in there.
Took me, I think, a little too long to get through.
Like I'm like, I, I want to read this book cover to cover.
I want it to also be quicker, you know?
But but anyway, you also said you're a games educator.
So how how did that come about And and how how what I guess
does that entail? Oh.
Yeah, How did that come about was kind of interesting.
I kind of stumbled into teaching is is, I think actually the
accurate way to start is I taught.
My first real teaching gig was at the Museum of the Moving
Image, which is a museum in Queens here in New York.
And it's like the museum in New York that's about like TV film,
like early film, video games is like kind of a big one.
They're like, we are games museum.
Also. It's a moving image.
Like that's kind of the. Yeah.
And they're all all-encompassing to what that means.
And so Sharon Biswas, who's like, another designer in the
scene, Sharon is an incredible designer, just worked on a bunch
of stuff. He was like, the artist or like,
yeah, the artist in residence at the Museum of the Moving Image.
And then I moved to New York. And then he was like, oh, you're
in New York now. Like, do you need work?
And I'm like, yes. And then he goes here, you know,
games, I'll introduce you. And then I ended up teaching
there at their education department.
And I taught after school, like for like middle schoolers, like
twice a week I would teach after school programs and teach middle
schoolers how to make like rudimentary games in like very
rudimentary video game engines, like browser based stuff and
really small things 'cause they don't want to be diving into
like a major engine. Some of them maybe want to, but
they don't need to, yeah. So that's really fun.
And then I was like, wow. I actually really like teaching.
Like I actually really enjoy teaching about games.
I like talking about games and I love explaining core concepts
and getting people excited to make games.
I will say that I also am really bad at teaching kids because I
can't wrangle like I'm not like an authority in the classroom.
I feel. So there was often times where I
would just lose an entire class because they would smell
weakness and then they would just start like they would like
go off on some like tangent or like start kind of like throwing
little jokes and and making fun of me and all these little
things. And I'm just like, well, you've
won. Like I, I literally can't be
like, Hey, everybody, like I'd be like, can we maybe we get,
maybe we get back on back on track and they're like, no.
And I'm like, OK you. Got to do the really.
Clap once if you can hear me. I swear clap.
Twice, if you can hear me. Yeah, I.
Needed to do that. I just it.
Worked shockingly well, I'm telling you.
I really wish I did that, but then what happens?
So I got some teaching experience and then now I guess
like Long story short, I then found a job at the Pratt
Institute, which is a art college here in Brooklyn, and
I'm teaching for their game design program.
I'm still a part time adjunct. But yeah, like that was an
opportunity that came by because my old professor runs that
department and so was like, you have teaching experience and we
need good teachers. So for the past like 2 years
I've been teaching at a college for undergrad and I've been
teaching like game basics theory, like narrative design,
level design. I'm teaching in a board game
class this semester which is really nice.
So it's been interesting. I'm teaching a lot of like video
game theory stuff more so. So it's like, I'm not like RPG
instructor, but it's like games in general have been what I
teach and talk about. So the last two years have been
like all I think about is games. Like I I've been thinking I'm,
I'm all I am is games. I'm games to the core.
But like it's truly like my brain is just, oh, like what's
the theory of this? Or like, where did this come
from? Or like, like academic sense
now. Yeah, just.
Been called academia. How are you?
How are you liking it? Academia is weird.
It took me, I think, honestly, I think until.
This month for me to accept the fact that I'm now a.
Games academic, I think for some reason to me that felt so like I
was like, no, I don't want to be a games academic.
I'm not like that's not who I am.
They're like they're like pretentious and and and you
know, they're like they don't make games.
They talk about games and all these different things.
I was like, Oh no, I'm still like kind of.
I like I make leans and I make games all the time and I don't
want to be a games like a little.
Art punk guy, you know? I'm a little art punk guy.
I'm not a college professor. But then like I will say, like I
think teaching in New York has been really nice.
So games academia and academia in general is fucked.
Like truly, I mean, especially in New York, I mean, there's so
many institutes and so many like, you know, award-winning
institutes and, and acclaimed. Places that like, they can kind
of just get away with paying us next to nothing.
And there's so much administration and I still
really kind of dislike academic administration because it feels
confusing and strange. And I'm like, I want to do
what's good for my students. And they're like, we need to do
what's good for the college. And I'm like.
OK, I guess I've literally have no power against you.
So academia not great, but games academics actually really cool
like it's cool to be a part of this community and cool to like
kind of go back to like true. I mean I make.
Games and all I do is think about games, but now it's like I
love being a teacher specifically because like these
are kids that are excited to do this and it's like OK cool like
that truly is very rewarding is I'm.
Like it's not. They're not just like,
completely burned out, horribly depressed, like indie game
designers, like the entire space that we're all in.
It's crazy. Not yet.
Don't worry, we'll get them. There.
So yeah, I would say they are incredibly depressed, burned out
students, games students. And the games industry, as we
all know, is on fire. Right now so.
Like the world. So I have been like, it's been a
lot of like, especially with my seniors, they're like.
What's the fucking point? And I'm like, guys, I know I get
it and there's nothing I can say to make you feel better.
Like we're just jobs are weird right now, but the point.
Studios are blowing up though, you know.
They are, but they're not hiring.
Yeah. Well, no one's hiring.
This is, I mean, Gen. Z is a very interesting because
I think these are going to be like the the last Gen.
Z's or is this alpha now whatever these kids have such
like a a meme nihilism of knowing that the world is
completely fucked by the time they get into it.
So it's a it's a great time for them to be alive, which is
great. So question though, because you
said you, you do Yeah, you, you said you do more games and
specifically like teach RPG and, and how do you, what are your
thoughts on game design as a whole compared to like, let's
say indie game design? Because I feel like there is
this at least there's sections of and subsections of like the
scene that we're in, I'll call it that, that are for some
reason somehow like morally and, and like culturally opposed to
the idea that we can borrow any kind of design from like video
games or board games or anything, which I think is kind
of fading out a little bit. But what is your thought on like
game design as a whole versus RPG design and whether you teach
one versus the other and or both together?
I it's been that's been like a real journey for me is like
really thinking about this, especially as I teach video game
design and and even board game design.
It's like there are some core concepts like narrative design
is a really good example of this.
Like I teach a narrative design class every year and it is
really fun for me to be like, oh, this is like a core concept
in interaction and why we do narrative design in a video game
and. Then to go But that's not how
role-playing games work. Like, role-playing games
actually don't care about narrative design in the same way
that video games do. And so I think there's like I've
been learning more and more like that there is a fundamental
split that happens or maybe like they come from different
directions and then they kind of cross paths and intertwine.
But RPG design and then like just other game design from,
from the other disciplines are it's, it's very unique and, and
the biggest uniqueness is the fact that like humans, US
players are such a big part of the actual systems in play.
And like thinking about and having to design around the idea
that like, I won't, not even just I won't be there because
board games are like that. Like I won't be there.
Video games are. I am there because in the form
of like code like how you hard code something is.
As. Directly the designer's presence
as possible but then like also like board game culture is you
play by the rules verbatim because you want because just
when you sit down and play a board game you are playing the
system that the designer has created and that's what it is
and you want to get good at it and you want to do this and then
like the you know then it breaks because you're like oh these
rules weren't written great or there's ambiguity and then we.
Kind of add in the human element.
But RBGS is all human element. Even though it is like, you
know, very much like you want to play by the system or you know,
however, if we want to get into that whole discourse, but you
know what I mean? Like it's a matter.
It's just that little conversation, that 30 year old
conversation, the system matter, yeah.
But like, but you know, there's the game to a role-playing game
and like when why we roll dice and when we roll the dice and
what all these different things mean.
But then like. I don't know, there's just like
so many like RPGs have such a fundamentally, I think different
idea of why, where and why system needs to be designed and
placed then something like a video game or a board game.
And so like in this greater to go back to like the actual core
question of this, like where do we bring?
What can we learn from and where do we bring?
And how do I kind of feel about that is I think there is really
exciting, interesting things mechanically that you can take
from other games. Disciplines like board games are
great because they can show you a lot of different ways you can
interact on a table with pieces and dicing cards and stuff.
So it's like, that's really cool.
There's a, Oh my God, a bourbon. There's a lot of fun,
interesting stuff there. Video games are great because
you can learn a lot about like. How do you get players to do
things and thematically and and inspirationally?
Like what does art get you and where does all these different
other elements come to you? And then also as just a
springboard of just cool ideas. It's like, I want to make, you
know, how does like a Mass Effect kind of squad system feel
like, or those core kind of crunchy systems want to
translate it? But I think you.
Lose a lot when all you're trying to do is translate like
one to another because those gaps and the improv the elements
and like appreciating and understanding of the player is
if not half like if at least half of the reason they're
playing it more is such a balancing act that I, I don't
know I. Think I'm rambling but like I
think that's like where where it's like.
Interesting to find. I'm just thinking about the.
Person so much more as an RPG designer than I was before.
Is is I think where it's coming from.
One thing you said that is an interesting thing was that like
people are part of the system. Like you can, you can design.
And I'm definitely a person who thinks like system, system
matters as much as it needs to matter, but it matters like you
should play the game as it's written before you decide to
tweak it just because you might not like it because you don't
know how it's going to play until you do like know how to
break it before you break it kind of thing.
But the the thought that or to remember that the players are
part of the system and the things that they do are why
you're doing it and part of the intent design into it is
important and and does can make it different than board games.
What not, but that there's again, there's still so much you
can bring in like like search the victory friend of the show.
Big fan of theirs. They did cyclic dungeon design
where they took the level design from unexplored and turned that
into and basically adapted that for tabletop role-playing games
so that you can create like game loops in your system and stuff
like that. Was a great adaptation in my
opinion of of a way to bring like video game design into the
TTRPG space in a way that is really interesting.
That can still allow the player to do a lot because it's really
just for level design. It's not about like the actual
improv and stuff like that. But I don't know, it's cool to,
it's neat, and it makes me even more interested in like the
things you're doing in the future, knowing that like you're
not just doing TTRPG design, you're also doing so much other
game design stuff. So really curious to see how
those kind of ideas are going to translate into TTRPGS.
And Speaking of of the other stuff you're working on, one of
the reasons you're here on the show is is above my head right
now. It's a land once magic.
That's a current project you're working on.
Yeah. What are you?
So what is what's what's what is a land once magic?
So Landless Magic is a conversational post fantasy
world building game where you build a world entirely from the
ground up. It's fantasy in feel and nature,
but the entire core conceit of the game is to get you to really
break those preconceived notions of what a fantasy world is and
make something that feels like fantasy but looks nothing like
it is. Is kind of the the objective of
it. And it is a land once magic,
because magic is so intrinsically tied to the base
of what your world is built off of.
But something is happening to the magic, like magic is
changing, it's disappearing, it's evolving.
And so how is that also shaking up the world as you build it?
And I mean, like you said, it's very conversational when I, so I
just pulled up the the quick start onto the stream here.
We're going to float through that a little bit.
I got very, very and you mentioned microscope before,
like before the the thing started when we randomly we were
talking about Kai Snap for no reason, but it it gave me a
little bit of of that kind of the concepts of the world, but
in a little bit was like I'm, I can only assume that you've
played it at some point. Was that in your mind at all
when you were building this, or is that like an inspiration?
It is and it was microscope. I really like microscope.
I'm I'm a Big Ben Robbins fan. I'm like that Ben Robbins, king
of world builders in my opinion. But I think microscope was
really big for me. But more specifically, I really
like, I'm sorry to just say, St. Magic by Caro assertion, which
is a microscope hack. Like it's very in its lineage.
And so St. Magic is, is like a big
inspiration where this comes from and microscope also on like
this grand scope of a world. So St. magic is like you're just
building 1 city in a microscope esque system and microscope
being like you're building a timeline of and that timeline
can span a bunch. I was like, I kind of want to
make something that can be broad like microscope, but specific
like street magic. Yeah, I mean, that's one thing
when going through the quick start.
And I think I think those are it's almost exactly what it said
to Hunter. I was like, this feels like
microscope like way more focused.
Like it's not Microscope is very broad and it's like do whatever
you want and here's how. But here's how you set scenes
and how you can narrow down from like epics to to things, but it
doesn't give you like a lot of focus.
I feel like the the prompts and the way that it's like walked
through in this provides like a lot more focus to be able to
like when you're done, you have this, this, this world.
And I love at the end where you're like, if you like it,
play it with another game now, just like run with it.
But for those that haven't yet downloaded the free quick start
that you can get at the links that will be down below before
you go back in on back start, What what how does the game play
like? Just walk us through like kind
of a little bit of what you actually do for the game.
No, so like the game, I say it's a conversational world builder
because it is truly I wanted to make this a very streamlined
very like you're just chatting with people.
So the game starts with if you kind of see the the spreads,
like the entering the world is like you start by making a
pallet and some touchstones. And these are the pallet is just
like a couple evocative words that get everybody kind of just
thinking in abstracts about what they want this world to look
like. And then touchdowns are
specifically non fantasy pieces of media or things that you want
to draw inspiration from. So it's like very like I say
Cowboy Bebop because I really like Cowboy Bebop, but I'm like,
I want to talk about it. I want to bring in its
soundtrack because I think that's very interesting.
And then other people will bring in other stuff and they can get
really weird and they can get really abstract or really
specific. I know for a fact the next time
I play Eleno's Magic, I'm like, I really just want to be
explicit and I want to say Max. I want to be like, my touch tone
is Gundam Max and just see where that takes us, right?
And then the rest of the game is just drawing cards, like playing
cards on random prompt tables. And they'll either give you kind
of like prompts or like fragments of sentences that you
can then kind of expand on your own.
Like a legend gives you like a legend is told of a
contemplative scholar. Their tales tell of unifying
liberation, right? Like these are just like vague
but evocative, or they're specifically like prompt
questions. And then you answer them and
then you go around. So it's just you go around, you
draw cards, see what they tell you answer them, and then you
just kind of start chatting about it.
Like that's the whole point is you just kind of start having
this little conversation of like, Oh, well, here's the
question I answer. But then somebody else at the
table will be like, Oh, I have an idea for that.
Or do you want to take a pitch or, or even just being like, I
really like what you said there. My question, I'm going to just
pull off from that and be like, I like what you established.
Let me kind of come back to it. I'm actually like talking about
like the the prior conversation we were having about like the
players, how much a part of the game is what makes RPGs unique.
Elena's magic is is really, I think like a a a real honing in
on that is I the thing I love about this game is that
eventually, like people kind of forget that they need to draw
another card or like one prompt Spurs like a 10 minute, 15
minute discussion that has completely dwarfed the scope of
what that singular question was about.
And they're just kind of coming off.
And then at some point somebody will be like, oh, like.
Should I draw my next card? And they're like, yeah, oh, we
have to finish this table. And like, that's kind of why.
And it's a type of game I really like, especially when it comes
to world building games I like. I don't see a lot of world
building games all the time or or just games in general that
are have no role play. So I never need to go into a
mode where I have to like embody a character but still are like
exciting to get the the pieces going.
Even microscope still has like scenes and I really like.
I like, I love microscope and I and there's absolutely nothing.
Wrong with the. Role-playing or the scenes of
it, it's just always the part that like pulls me out because
now I'm like, oh, I have to like embody something.
I have to like be a person when I've just really enjoyed the the
broad kind of what ifs and. Like, oh, I have an idea for
that. I think so, yeah, that's kind of
like how it plays is you just kind of go through it question
by question, talking and talking.
And then it ends with a journey in the land, kind of like what
you mentioned, also of like I go, all right, you've like kind
of made a world. And then you end by zooming in
fully. And then it's not in the book
right now. But it's going to be in the
final, which is like you then all go around and essentially
make a character you don't like have to role play as them.
But you go what is like a thing about this world that you would
like to explore in the form of a character.
So it's like, oh, we're with a caravan and I remember us
talking about like, you know, merchants that ride giant
beetles. I want to be a beetle rider.
Like that's a guy who I think is so cool in this run.
Somebody else would be like, oh, I want to be like, you know, a
spell slinging guard who can RIP earth apart.
You're like, yeah, you know, and then cool and like, go.
Ahead and then. Then it's like an open-ended
like take this world somewhere else, actually explore those
characters in a different system or just leave it be, let it go.
It's. Really interesting.
I like, it's funny because like that's kind of the exact same
part of about microscope that I'm not the biggest fan of.
Like I do like setting the epics in the history and like filling
out the cards and making a timeline.
But like you said, as soon as you're like, here's a scene, now
you have to go play somebody, You're like, OK, well, this is
the whole thing. It's really interesting that I
like that. The idea is that you you always
stay kind of zoomed out when you're when you're playing the
game and the building is the playing.
It's not you know, you're not necessarily building this poo
then zoom in. It is the zoomed out thing is
the game like that just the whole part of it like you can if
you want, then do more with it, but you're always kind of you
know one step back from from that, and that's a really neat.
It's neat 'cause you can do you can just build.
You can endless worlds like the humpbacks guy filled as much as
you want and that's fantastic. I my question was gonna be like
why? But you answered it as you went
through it. Because this sounds fucking
awesome. Because the world building is
the fun part and stuff like that.
So the game is on backer kid as part of pocket Topia, right?
Pocket Topia, first year for Pocket Topia.
How is that going on, Backer kid?
Pretty good, I would say. I think, I think pretty good.
I It seems like there's some 60 some projects and we've like 55
from them have been funded if I. Oh nice.
Have that. 54 out of 66, yeah. Yeah, which is like, I think
pretty solid. Yeah, definitely overall,
especially as like an event post literally right after Zinequest.
I feel like that's also really good.
So it's either touching a new audience, which I think is
exciting for us to have like another event that's very RPG
friendly that, you know, isn't just hey, here's like one single
month for everyone to fund everything at once.
And also it's on like, you know, it's on.
It's good to see backer kit is also doing events that are like
gaining its own traction and it's willing to like pull a
bunch of people into it. I think it's coming pretty.
Well, I think all things considered, I, I'm not like the
best at metrics on like a grand scale, but like knowing where's
this is, you know, not to, not to get weird about like knowing
that like Zine quest every year is kind of getting harder and
harder. It's nice to know that this is
like a level of this is a success rate that I think is
exciting to see. And you guys funded?
You funded. Did you find day one?
We found a day one, day one five hours we were.
Very. You're at over 13 1/2 thousand
on a $5000 goal, so you're almost triple it up and still
have like 10 days left, which is fantastic to see.
I mean, like you said, Pocket Topia is really interesting.
Friend of the show Marco has a thing on Pocketopia, so I was
talking to him a lot about it. So really interesting idea.
Like you said, I was worried Marco's doing Blackthorn.
Yeah, spicy tuna. But my worry, I guess, and I
think we were me and were talking a little bit was like
it's red Brazil quest, like everyone's broke as fuck.
Because I know I spent way too much money on scene, well less
than previous ones. But it's great that I mean, it's
I mean, I like that backer kit has the metrics here.
It's raised over $700,000 just in pocket Tobia.
So it's really cool to see something like you said, pretty
successful, like off of Kickstarter, which anytime that
you can not do something on Kickstarter is great.
Like is it possible not to if you want to make money?
That's just how it works. But it's really cool.
The backer kit has become more and more and more viable,
especially as other things like crowdfunder and stuff kind of
fell off. But but anyway, the project is
on backer kit. Tell me about when people go
back this what can they actually get as part of the product, part
of the project? Nope.
Oh, I'm so excited to tell you about that.
I think we're, I think we're losing is a tiny bit.
That's the way. Oh, am I here?
You're you're, you're in short motion.
No, Yeah. But it is unstable.
Hold on, hold on. Let me see.
You're tuning in, folks. I think we're.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Oh no, you're good. This is what editing is for.
I think we're coming back in. My back OK.
I think you're back enough, we'll make it work.
I think we're coming back. I don't know.
Yeah, I can see that. Everything's a little fuzzy for
me. We're a podcast anyways, so
don't worry about that. So that's what matters about
yeah, there. We go, the audio's back.
OK, good, good, good, good, good.
So I'm very excited to tell you about what you get from this
because Elliot Davis, who's more blueberries publishing it made
incredible games. The time we have ROM com drama
bomb project echo like. At least great.
Always I'm shouting about, but we kind of had this whole thing
where. We were like, all right.
Simple book. Like I was like, Elliot, I want
to publish Elaine One's magic. I'd love to do it with you.
And he goes, cool, yeah. And I go, let's just do a small
little thing. It'll just be a book, and we're
not going to bloat. It doesn't need to get a lot.
And I just wanted to be simple, like I want books out in stores
and I want more physicals. And he goes.
Great. We'll do it.
It's like we both are like like what if, what if it's a pocket
game and we, we both, we both and we're like, what if it's
like open spine like or we both we want it to be lay flat
because it's a game of like random tables.
And that to me is like, you want to be able to put that book.
On the on the table. And it lays flash and you don't
need to worry about it. I love a lay flat specifically
for a game that you got a reference.
And so we're there, OK, what if we do open spine and they were
like, uh oh, like that bumps are cost a little bit more.
So we're like, oh, you get like a nice ASICS open spine book.
An ASICS book is I usually have one on me, but like it's small.
It's more. Bag.
Size than it is necessarily pocket pocket, but like you toss
it in a bag, toss it in like a pocket somewhere in a jacket
pocket. It's great, beautiful art.
And then we were also like, we were looking at all of our
favorite kind of board games. And we're like, you know what we
love? I love a board game that comes
in a bag. Yeah, there we go.
And like that fits in. Like I guess to shout out world
champ Gameco again, that fits in your world champ Little Fanny's
sling. Really good.
But we're like, oh, we love, we love little board games that
come in little drawstring bags. What if we have a drawstring
bag? And then it just kind of kept
getting like we were like, we can't bloat it.
We can't bloat it. We're not going to do it, but
what about the bag? And we can't just have a single
book in a bag. What about a notebook to record
all your stuff in? And so if you if you're going
back to the game, you can either get just the book, which again
is it's going to be a beautiful ASICS little pocket sized world
builder, or you can get the. Bag bundle, which has a little
drawstring bag, a notebook that you can write all your worlds
in, and then the game itself. And I will hand stamp every bag
with the like logo of Elaine One's Magic because I like to
make stamps. Actually, I love little bit of
carving and then stamping, so that'll be really nice.
So it'll be personalized. You know, here's the thing as
far. As I think that's.
The as far as the bloat of what a project could be, because
trust me, I often will get all of the things that I'm trying to
not get. All the things.
Having just a book, a notebook and then having them both in a
bag is probably like the least bloat like you could have done
whilst flying. So I think you did a good job of
keeping it reasonable. Elliot and Chet said, thankfully
we talked each other out of a custom card deck because we're
like, well, it's a like we can't do like dice because it's a it's
a playing card based game. What if we do a deck of cards
and we both would just have to be like, no, stop that, like
calm down. And then like my running, my
running joke with Elliot every time we're like, oh, what should
we do for like a stretch goal? And like, you know, we're doing
pretty well funding, which is, which is great.
And I go look, hear me out. Metal coins, and there's no
reason to have a coin in this game, but just for the bloat,
just to be like, hey, we have metal coins.
What about minis? You know, custom minis to just
raise everything up. Yeah, meatballs from a
completely different factory so that we have to like put
multiple things together so we can like ship it out as like a
whole bag. Too.
Funny. Yeah.
I love the idea of meatball custom custom cut meatballs that
do nothing. This.
Game requires none of it, yeah. They will hold the coin for you
that you don't need for the game.
And then the deck of cards that is $0.50 at CVS or Walgreens,
but you can get them from us for a lot more.
No, it's great. And I mean, and the, I know the,
the, the, it's, it's extremely, what's the best way to say it's
cost effective? I mean, the whole, the early
bird bundle's like 35 bucks. That's crazy.
Like that's such a, for, for a book with like a Coptic spine
and then a notebook and then a bag that you're going to hand
stamp to 35 is a crazy price. I don't know what I mean.
That's obviously that's what I backed at.
I don't know what the what the other tiers are after.
We really like and again, that kind of had to do with like we
wanted to do something quick and small.
So like I think our only other like big tier, you know, in like
in crowdfunding terminology is like, you know, you're kind of
big swing of a tier is. Just like play with me, which is
a usual kind of classic 1. So like for like 100 bucks you
we'll schedule a time to play this game with me in Elliot.
But even then we were like that's kind of it.
Like it's like no box, no alternate cover, like nothing,
like even our deluxe edition isn't even a deluxe.
It's just a bag, right? I don't know, I like it right
and and IA lot of it's it's I again shout out to Elliot
because he fucking knows business.
I'm pretty sure like all of these, like we're not like it is
cheap. Like it's a we figured out how
to do this. Like pretty surprisingly cheap.
It doesn't didn't take a lot. Yeah, like 40 bucks for a bag
and an extra notebook is like actually pretty easy and pretty
doable. It's kind of nice.
I was surprised. I thought this was going to be
more expensive when we were kind of talking about it and he was
like, no, I think we can just do that.
No, well, what's interesting too is like, I mean, I've I've I've
acted immediately, I've obviously read the press kit.
I've read this a million times. I don't think I ever noticed,
even though I saw it a bunch. A6 lay flat like the Coptic spot
on a six. I don't I have a lot of games.
I have a lot of shit right, and I have a ton of like lay flat
Coptic printed stuff, everything.
I know that I don't have a like Coptic stitch A6 book.
That is a very interesting print and choice.
Someone in chat actually said, do you mind sharing who the
printer was from that? Maybe we can send that to them
after. But that's an interesting
choice. First of all, like you said,
like flat is great. It's also going to be on the
shelf better. I mean, I know a lot of people
you did the the spiral bound on the notebook.
I know there's a lot of people. I mean that like spiral bounds
don't fit great on shelves for selling them in stores and stuff
like that. So that's why people don't do
them as much, even though I think they're they're superior
version of tabletop role-playing games.
But it's it's interesting, it's interesting choice to do a lay
flat A6. Have you got it?
Have you got 1 yet? Like have you seen a prototype?
So we have it. And.
I, I will. I'm.
I'm actually I'm. Pretty sure I'm going to just
make one myself because I also want to see how it is and it
won't be as pretty and it won't be as good but like I can get a
vibe of it because bookbinding is a is a side hobby of mine.
Yeah, I love. I love the.
Nice comic, Stitch. Yeah, Yeah.
Yeah. Holy God, yeah, here we go.
Yeah, I know you were throwing on Coptic stitch and I was like
we we know what's happening. We're all here for it.
And I like making Coptics. Actually that's must of little
books I make. But what I was going to say so I
haven't we haven't seen it yet. The the printing is our printers
tiger printing, I'm pretty sure is the name of it and Min Chao,
who's the one who who is the person behind it was also like a
little like. So this is a bit unorthodox.
I but and is like usually to get a nice open spine like Coptic is
to they need to be a little bigger than what?
Like, I mean, not even just in size, but like in thickness.
Like we're like, we're like potentially 62 pages is as big
as we'll get. And she's like, OK, well, we can
do it. But it's been really nice.
Like she's she's a very active printer.
Like she talked to us a bunch. We actually Elliot and I got to
meet her at breakout con cuz she was at.
Toronto Comic Con and we just happened to bump into her and so
we had a nice little chat about paperweight.
Like that's how excited she just pulled out a bunch of paper like
book samples. It was like, what do you think
about this paper? And and like half of that
question was, what do you think about that paper for your book?
And I'm pretty sure the other half is, isn't this paper really
cool? And I love like that energy, you
know, but she seems to be like, we can do it and I'll make sure
it works. And so like, that's kind of
where I'm like, I, I have full faith that this will work out
because of our printer. She seems so she's like, I'll
figure it out, I'll do it. Oh, frontier scum is it?
Yeah. I was wondering if you're going
to pull that. Out I wanted to show because
like I have I have a couple other I have the bloody one and
then I have to frolick nightmares.
It's all black, but like this is my camera's going to like not do
it well, but I just want to make sure that people on the stream
kind of get a little bit of example.
If you don't know what like the open open spine is, I think this
is one of the one of the early ones that kind of did it that
kind of blew up. Phil Jensen put out a Merkborg
one too that had an interesting one, but it literally is open
spine and you see the exposed stitching.
They do still glue these a bunch.
I know I don't glue the ones that I do, but I'm not mass
producing them either. But again, I'm so excited and
we're obsessed with A6 here on the show, too.
It's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, they're great.
I'm so happy actually. Yeah, so it's gonna be cool to
see all that, but yeah, it's crazy.
So the tiers here, $10.00 for the digital tier 20 for the
physical, 30 for assigned edition 40.
Now if you missed the early bird for the bundle that you talked
about with the the book, the notebook and the bag and then a
hundred that you said again, extremely cost effective, really
affordable. I mean, thirty, I was surprised
where I was like, wait, you get a bag 2 and it's $35.
It's crazy talking about like the value that you get from a
project. And again, it's a Vidicha Vidi
project. So it's going to be fire.
Like we all know that. I'm very excited for it and had
Elliot on the show as well too. And they're and they're
fantastic. So you 2 working together is is
really wonderful. Also, we we're going to add a
this is just a well, we'll add an add on for getting even if
you got the bag bundle, you can get an add on to get it signed
as well. We just know that there was like
some weird like bundly things, but I think.
We also have. Add-ons like if you want to get
more games from Elliot's collection or no space between
Star and not Space Goblins is not an add on.
Never mind. I was about to say that.
But yeah, you can also grab like a bunch of cool other games as
well with your kit, your backer kit.
Didn't have all of Elliot's games already.
I would I would throw them on there.
But and so you we talked about this for the show you you've
done, you're doing a really nice like press like run for this.
For those that haven't or are curious about how the game is
played, we talked about, you know, how it is played, but
didn't actually get to play it. You've done a bunch of apps
already and or they're coming out.
I know I saw I think posted this morning the one shot pod posted,
I think Part 2 of one, but there's a couple of different
ones. For those that haven't seen all
of that, they're listed on the backer kit.
But what are some of the other places that you've been on that
people can hear kind of more information about this or or
that you've done a PS on? So there's a few different
places I've I've been on to listen to actual place for this,
the one shot podcast. There's Part 2 just came out
today. So I think about a three parter,
maybe a four part, I'm not actually sure, but that's me,
Dylan Napoleon, the host of the one shot 3 parter, and Jeff
Stormer and Aaron Cadanesias, two of my favorite people in the
whole wide world. They make, I mean Jeff Stormer,
party of one and also my mortal enemy.
But then the him and Aaron make a podcast called All My Fantasy
Children where they just kind of riff and make fantasy characters
and places in a shared universe. And I basically made this game
for them is kind of a thing. So because Elena's magic is
deeply inspired by that podcast and how that friendship and how
they talk and build. So I would say like, I really
love how we did that. And if you want kind of a
platonic ideal of what what this game does, go listen to that.
We also did talk of the table I or many side of media in general
like with Elliot, I talk at the table or if you want to hear me
talk about the game and my first dungeon episode where.
We play it and I love the world that we made there.
Oh my God, reckless. A talk is coming out tomorrow
with Nathan, which was a lovely conversation that we had and
yes, indeed, with Thomas Manuel was, I think, a really great
interview. Thomas is such a good
interviewer and such a smart person that I was like, oh
Thomas, you're making me realize things about my game that I
didn't even. Know it was about so if you
wanna hear that I think that's a really fun listen gosh, I really
hope I don't miss anything and then later this week I mean on.
Actually later today, not to continue to promo real quick,
but. Later today we have.
I guess this is where it is on our backward kit page, me and
Nat. I've forgotten that's last name.
Mesnard, who has another Pocket Tobia game called Assemblage,
Another world building game. We're just going to kind of chat
today. So if you want to hear more
about Elena's magic and also learn more about a really cool
other world building RPG that's on Pocket Topia right now,
that'll be happening later today.
And then on Wednesday we're going to do a stream with Who am
I Rolling or sorry, what am I Rolling?
Which is a stream for on the One Shot Network.
So you'll hear about that later also.
Yeah, we've been doing a lot. Oh my.
You're making our rounds. I'm exhausted.
It was just. Just just marching you out there
and just running your way in there.
Absolutely what he's doing. There you go.
Hey, it worked. You're almost triple funded So
and with with 10 days to go. So again, this this project
sounds great. Super excited for it.
I, I think we kind of already talked about what's coming soon
in the future for you and that is the wonderful marriage
between you and world champ doing blood beam Badlands.
Anything else currently kind of float on the horizon or is this
and that kind of your primary focus?
Well, so I I have I have there's a three major things for me
that's like front and center of my brain.
This is what I care about right now is Elena's magic is
happening right now and then blood beam Badlands with world
champ and then also it's been announced but.
Space between stars which is my space opera GM list space opera
campaign world build like slash world building game is being
published by the possible worlds Tyler comran's.
World. Games that's coming out, that's
going to be published in 2026, so that's later on, but later
this year I'll release an updated quick start with a lot
of the designs that I've been doing.
That's a game I've been passively I released.
I came six years ago as my college undergrad thesis.
And then it's been slowly, I've been playing it and updating it,
and that's coming out in 2026. And then to be honest, I really
just, I kind of miss making some new stuff.
So you'll probably see have some little ideas that I want to
make. I have another big idea that I
want to make that I'm going to figure out.
You're going to make your your DND killer Breakers.
Coming. Yeah, yeah, I.
Think D is doing a good job killing itself at this point so.
Exactly for. Project Signal, you know,
exciting to see how that's working out, you know, but
Speaking of blood being Badlands, Speaking of us
pitching the stars and everything, where can people
find those currently? Because I know, I mean, like we
said, we looked at that got to be like a year and a half ago.
So there, there's still plenty of that.
You can play with that now and with both.
So what? Where can people find your
stuff? Yeah, my stuff can be found at
vidito valedi dot H dot IO. That's my main.
Like that's where all my games live.
I like to release games in early access forms and playable forms,
so you're welcome to grab the games, play them, try them out.
They're very playable and really good even in the state in my
opinion. And then just get excited for
when. They.
Properly release with layout and additional content.
And then you can check me out also at Blue Sky at video Table
Eddie, if you want to just know any updates on kind of like what
where my projects are, what else I'm making various errant
thoughts about games that I have there.
You go, we'll make sure that all of those links are down there.
We'll make sure that the link to the backer kid is on there too.
I know I put it over here. It's the ALOMRPG dot world.
I love when I'm so happy that some of the designers use like
the little URL so I don't have to put the entire thing across
the street. So that's great when we go back
this go grab everything from Vidicha.
Listen, it's it's been an absolute pleasure.
Again. We've been a fan of yours for a
long time. I was so glad when Elliot
reached out was like, hey, do you want to talk to them?
Was I guess we I could do. I wanted to forever.
So it was wonderful to talk to. Please come back on anytime you
want and I'm really looking forward to a six lay flat world
building game that is Elaine most magic I think.
Very excited for this. We're we're Elliott and I are
book freaks. I love that you 2 are also Yeah,
freaks like to that level, you know, I love the no also.
Thank you so much for having me on.
I'm a huge fan of y'all too and truly I I can't express how much
like that blood bean band lens review like really made me go oh
shit like I like it filled. Me with rejuvenation.
So I I I wanna pass the thanks on to y'all as well then I'm a
big fan. Thanks.
I mean, I can't wait. And again, obviously, you know,
we've we've said over and over again, this is an out of a stand
podcast. So the fact that you're doing
that with with that was fantastic.
Yeah. So, so, yeah, so that is us
though. Make sure you check out the
backer kit page and it's going to have links to all of the
other interviews and APS that Vidita talked about today and go
go back, go back the project. And once again, thank you so
much for being here. We really appreciate it.
Yeah. Thank you for having.
Me OK And then that is going to be us for today.
So thank you everyone in chat for being here and we will talk
to you all later. Bye.
Yeah.