1 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:16,680 Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll Podcast. 2 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,040 My name is Ryan. And I'm your favorite 3 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,920 radioactive vampire. And today, we're joined by a 4 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,120 very special guest that is Evidya Valedi. 5 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:29,000 How are you doing today? I'm doing really good actually. 6 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,360 It's, it's, it's a nice day. It's a rainy day here in 7 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,080 Brooklyn. But usually I'm not a fan of the 8 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,800 rainy days but it's like a chill vibe. 9 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,320 I like it. Yeah, big fan of that. 10 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,400 Yeah, I I love the rain because it's as close as you're going to 11 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,440 get to nighttime during the daytime, which is my preferred 12 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,480 part of the day. Yeah, Real Vampire Coast. 13 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:52,120 Yeah. It is. 14 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,920 It's like 65 right now at 10:00 in the morning here on the West 15 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,000 Coast and sunny. So This is why I'm on the West 16 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:02,720 Coast. But but yeah, that thank you so 17 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:04,599 much for coming on. We've been a fan of yours for 18 00:01:04,599 --> 00:01:06,920 for quite a long time. We got a bunch of stuff to talk 19 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,480 about today. But just in case anyone out 20 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,200 there has a misfortune of not knowing who you are, what tell 21 00:01:13,960 --> 00:01:17,240 us a little bit about yourself and and what people might might 22 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,200 know you best for. Yeah, well, like I said, my name 23 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,360 is Vidita Valetti AEC him pronounce my. 24 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:29,080 I am a game designer and a games educator also. 25 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:34,800 I teach game design at a college and yeah. 26 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:35,840 That's that's what I. Love doing. 27 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:37,920 I love making games and I love doing stuff. 28 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,040 You probably know me from well from here. 29 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,640 You probably know me from Blood being Badlands for the weekly 30 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,800 school crew. And then I've also released 31 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,920 games like Space Goblins, which have been in a bunch of bundles 32 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,800 you probably own. And Elaine Wants Magic, which is 33 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,800 a game that's crowdfunding right now you've probably heard of as 34 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:00,840 the marketing push hopefully got to you. 35 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:04,600 Yeah, I don't know. I make a lot of stuff. 36 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,479 Space Routine Stars is also a game of mind that I think is 37 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,280 kind of a little out there for people to know what some recent 38 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,120 announcements so. I make a lot of games. 39 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,080 So you might know me from a few things, but yeah. 40 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,480 After I have I have space goblins somewhere I want to try 41 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,600 to find it but these giant gaps in my shelves are because I 42 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,760 reorganized and it's just in piles in my living room. 43 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,440 So I could not find the pile that contained your stuff. 44 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,360 I was going to try to grab it, but yeah, like we said, been a 45 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,240 fan of yours for a long time. What did we we Just before the 46 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,720 stream started, I asked Hunter what episode we did blood New 47 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:43,040 Badlands on. I forget now. 48 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:48,280 Episode 90. 595 so. About 100 episodes ago of of our 49 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,880 actual reviews, not of our everything else we do, but of 50 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:55,200 the reviews. 100 reviews ago. And we were huge fan of bloody 51 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,320 Badlands and I think that our biggest critique was that there 52 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:05,240 wasn't enough and we wanted more And and I feel like that we said 53 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,640 we were going to talk about it. So before we get to a land once 54 00:03:07,640 --> 00:03:10,920 magic, we do want to talk about some other stuff getting up to 55 00:03:10,920 --> 00:03:12,040 that. So why don't we just start with 56 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,480 that? What when we get some more blood 57 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:16,080 beam Badlands? Is that anything that you can 58 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:17,440 talk about? Because I. 59 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,960 Can talk about it. I'm pretty sure I can talk about 60 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:21,920 it. I don't think it's hidden. 61 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:24,240 I mean, our timeline's a little off, but like, Blood Beam. 62 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,480 Badlands is being published by world champ Gameco. 63 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,800 Match made in heaven for me at. Least of course, I'm like, I 64 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:36,760 would want nobody else to touch that game, frankly. 65 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,000 And. I think like, yeah. 66 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,200 Our timeline's a little off because we've both just been 67 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,760 really busy with stuff and just trying to figure out what our 68 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,920 2025 looks like. But it's like in like, I mean 69 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,120 like it's I'm testing, I'm still testing some new stuff with it. 70 00:03:56,280 --> 00:04:00,400 It needs like kind of a dev pass because I think the thing with 71 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,480 loving Badlands is I. I really love. 72 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,320 It, and I like writing for it. It's a game that I just get 73 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:10,360 excited to make things for and so I actually need to like a 74 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:12,640 moment to be like, am I writing too much? 75 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,760 Like I I actually think I need to like and it's actually 76 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,040 something that I think that y'all said that I really like 77 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,880 that kind of helped kind of hone it a bit. 78 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,320 Was like I I know in like your review that you're like this 79 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,760 feels like it would be a really like it doesn't need to be a 80 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,560 ton. It like a small Zine or just 81 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,600 like a smaller book that gets it to the table quick is like 82 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,800 something that I remember y'all saying like it just needs it 83 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,280 just needs like a little bit more and good layout and 84 00:04:42,280 --> 00:04:44,440 something that's easy to just like get in your hand and get on 85 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,280 the table. And I like remember really 86 00:04:46,280 --> 00:04:48,160 resonating with that. And I've had to keep that in my 87 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,560 brain to be like. This can't be like I I'm not 88 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,840 making 150. Pages of something or 200 pages 89 00:04:55,840 --> 00:04:59,080 of something like I I want this to be And Adam had very similar 90 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:04,000 things where he was like, just make it like the base game. 91 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,560 And then any all of your other ideas you just release for fun 92 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:11,720 or you you know, can do more of like this doesn't need to be a 93 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,680 one off game. And so that's kind of where it's 94 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,280 in in development is I'm like. Is this a base game thing or do 95 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,720 I scrap it and like leave it for maybe later and release the 96 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,560 Donuts or something? Yeah, I love that Adam is very 97 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,040 good at making appropriately sized games, so. 98 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:32,000 Yeah, the bloat is real and Adam and. 99 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:35,960 Will Yopst is editing, and so Will was also cool. 100 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:38,920 Yeah. You don't want this to get too 101 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:40,320 big. I'm like, yeah, yeah. 102 00:05:40,840 --> 00:05:43,760 Yeah, tell me. Tell me where to stop please. 103 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,000 Yeah, when you start thinking that, damn, maybe it's getting 104 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,280 past like perfect bout and this might need to be like a 105 00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:51,920 hardback, I think maybe you're probably at the point where it's 106 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:53,280 too much. Yeah. 107 00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:57,720 I mean, we, we, we've never like like tangent, welcome to the 108 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,160 show. We've never been shy about being 109 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:01,720 like, I don't fucking like big books. 110 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:03,400 I just don't. I think it's pointless if you 111 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:08,120 give me more stuff than I can possibly parse in in the 112 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,200 sitting. It's great to have like the 113 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,200 entire toolkit for everything you'll ever need in the entire 114 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,640 world. But also you could just give me 115 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:16,920 the stuff that I need and then give me the other stuff later. 116 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,240 Like I don't, I don't want all of all of it. 117 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,200 I, I think like, personally for me, I think Varn is one of the 118 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:28,920 best produced games ever in the original Zine format. 119 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,280 And that's what I really love is like, you got VAR and you could 120 00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:33,200 play the hell out of it. And then the next three zines 121 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,560 just made it bigger and better. And I, I'm always going to be a 122 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:41,400 fan of just give me the Zine that I need to play at the table 123 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,600 and then give me the stuff that I need aside from that. 124 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,280 I don't want 400 pages at one time. 125 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:52,000 It's not a table book at that point, but teach their album. 126 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,200 Listen, if you want to make a 400 page book, we'll read it and 127 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,480 have opinions about it. But you know. 128 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,080 Well, I mean, it's it's about. Like because I think I'm the 129 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,600 same words I like, I want to get something to table as quick as 130 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,440 possible. And so I read this maybe like a 131 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,680 year ago, I actually for the first time actually read Blades 132 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,920 in the Dark start to end because I was running it for the first 133 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:15,960 time. And so I was like, well, I 134 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,520 should maybe actually know what this fucking game is rather than 135 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:21,520 just what people have told me in osmosis. 136 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,280 And then or like that I've played as a player and there was 137 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,120 a lot of stuff in there that I was like, this is really 138 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,240 fascinating. I think this game I. 139 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,760 Think this book could be? 15% smaller, yeah. 140 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,840 And that's like, I feel like I'm also pulling my punch a bit 141 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,040 where it should be. I think like 20% they're smaller 142 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,080 than these. Sections in that book that are 143 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,480 in fact repeated, so yeah. I. 144 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,880 Yeah, we'll be a little bit. I don't think we've been shy 145 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,280 about our critique of. I think Blades is a great game 146 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:58,080 and an awful book. I think you could chop about 150 147 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,640 pages out of it and it would be the exact same fucking game. 148 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,520 But you know, to to each their own. 149 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:06,720 We're not going to harp on it too much. 150 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,640 I love so much of what John Harper does. 151 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,520 World of Dungeons is one of my favorite games of all time. 152 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,760 So listen, we got we, we have a lot of friends that are blades 153 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:18,800 fans. So teach their own. 154 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:20,200 It's it doesn't need to be that big. 155 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,880 Neither does Apocalypse World, but. 156 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,920 Also read Apocalypse World kind of cover to cover and. 157 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,480 I do think that that book is impeccable. 158 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,640 There's some incredible fucking things in there. 159 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,640 Took me, I think, a little too long to get through. 160 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,240 Like I'm like, I, I want to read this book cover to cover. 161 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:40,960 I want it to also be quicker, you know? 162 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:47,280 But but anyway, you also said you're a games educator. 163 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:52,480 So how how did that come about And and how how what I guess 164 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,080 does that entail? Oh. 165 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,560 Yeah, How did that come about was kind of interesting. 166 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:07,520 I kind of stumbled into teaching is is, I think actually the 167 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,000 accurate way to start is I taught. 168 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,160 My first real teaching gig was at the Museum of the Moving 169 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:17,320 Image, which is a museum in Queens here in New York. 170 00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:23,400 And it's like the museum in New York that's about like TV film, 171 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:28,440 like early film, video games is like kind of a big one. 172 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,440 They're like, we are games museum. 173 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,040 Also. It's a moving image. 174 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:34,960 Like that's kind of the. Yeah. 175 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,200 And they're all all-encompassing to what that means. 176 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:46,040 And so Sharon Biswas, who's like, another designer in the 177 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:49,480 scene, Sharon is an incredible designer, just worked on a bunch 178 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:53,080 of stuff. He was like, the artist or like, 179 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,160 yeah, the artist in residence at the Museum of the Moving Image. 180 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:58,560 And then I moved to New York. And then he was like, oh, you're 181 00:09:58,560 --> 00:10:01,360 in New York now. Like, do you need work? 182 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,640 And I'm like, yes. And then he goes here, you know, 183 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,200 games, I'll introduce you. And then I ended up teaching 184 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:09,600 there at their education department. 185 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:14,400 And I taught after school, like for like middle schoolers, like 186 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,120 twice a week I would teach after school programs and teach middle 187 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,040 schoolers how to make like rudimentary games in like very 188 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:26,240 rudimentary video game engines, like browser based stuff and 189 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:30,200 really small things 'cause they don't want to be diving into 190 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,000 like a major engine. Some of them maybe want to, but 191 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,040 they don't need to, yeah. So that's really fun. 192 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,440 And then I was like, wow. I actually really like teaching. 193 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,000 Like I actually really enjoy teaching about games. 194 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,240 I like talking about games and I love explaining core concepts 195 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,440 and getting people excited to make games. 196 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,120 I will say that I also am really bad at teaching kids because I 197 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,120 can't wrangle like I'm not like an authority in the classroom. 198 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,400 I feel. So there was often times where I 199 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,360 would just lose an entire class because they would smell 200 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:07,040 weakness and then they would just start like they would like 201 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,360 go off on some like tangent or like start kind of like throwing 202 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,120 little jokes and and making fun of me and all these little 203 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:14,880 things. And I'm just like, well, you've 204 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,600 won. Like I, I literally can't be 205 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:19,920 like, Hey, everybody, like I'd be like, can we maybe we get, 206 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,760 maybe we get back on back on track and they're like, no. 207 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,640 And I'm like, OK you. Got to do the really. 208 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,360 Clap once if you can hear me. I swear clap. 209 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,080 Twice, if you can hear me. Yeah, I. 210 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:35,480 Needed to do that. I just it. 211 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:37,200 Worked shockingly well, I'm telling you. 212 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:42,560 I really wish I did that, but then what happens? 213 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:45,640 So I got some teaching experience and then now I guess 214 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:50,200 like Long story short, I then found a job at the Pratt 215 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:55,560 Institute, which is a art college here in Brooklyn, and 216 00:11:55,560 --> 00:11:57,240 I'm teaching for their game design program. 217 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:02,600 I'm still a part time adjunct. But yeah, like that was an 218 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,320 opportunity that came by because my old professor runs that 219 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,920 department and so was like, you have teaching experience and we 220 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,200 need good teachers. So for the past like 2 years 221 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,760 I've been teaching at a college for undergrad and I've been 222 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:21,480 teaching like game basics theory, like narrative design, 223 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,400 level design. I'm teaching in a board game 224 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,280 class this semester which is really nice. 225 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,400 So it's been interesting. I'm teaching a lot of like video 226 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:34,560 game theory stuff more so. So it's like, I'm not like RPG 227 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:41,520 instructor, but it's like games in general have been what I 228 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,400 teach and talk about. So the last two years have been 229 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,000 like all I think about is games. Like I I've been thinking I'm, 230 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,880 I'm all I am is games. I'm games to the core. 231 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:56,520 But like it's truly like my brain is just, oh, like what's 232 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:58,600 the theory of this? Or like, where did this come 233 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,000 from? Or like, like academic sense 234 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:01,680 now. Yeah, just. 235 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:04,840 Been called academia. How are you? 236 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,320 How are you liking it? Academia is weird. 237 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,680 It took me, I think, honestly, I think until. 238 00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:15,000 This month for me to accept the fact that I'm now a. 239 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:20,800 Games academic, I think for some reason to me that felt so like I 240 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,560 was like, no, I don't want to be a games academic. 241 00:13:23,560 --> 00:13:26,400 I'm not like that's not who I am. 242 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:32,160 They're like they're like pretentious and and and you 243 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,760 know, they're like they don't make games. 244 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,120 They talk about games and all these different things. 245 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:39,960 I was like, Oh no, I'm still like kind of. 246 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,680 I like I make leans and I make games all the time and I don't 247 00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:43,560 want to be a games like a little. 248 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,480 Art punk guy, you know? I'm a little art punk guy. 249 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,480 I'm not a college professor. But then like I will say, like I 250 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:52,120 think teaching in New York has been really nice. 251 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,000 So games academia and academia in general is fucked. 252 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,840 Like truly, I mean, especially in New York, I mean, there's so 253 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,960 many institutes and so many like, you know, award-winning 254 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,720 institutes and, and acclaimed. Places that like, they can kind 255 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,720 of just get away with paying us next to nothing. 256 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,800 And there's so much administration and I still 257 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:19,120 really kind of dislike academic administration because it feels 258 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,640 confusing and strange. And I'm like, I want to do 259 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,440 what's good for my students. And they're like, we need to do 260 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,040 what's good for the college. And I'm like. 261 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,640 OK, I guess I've literally have no power against you. 262 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:37,040 So academia not great, but games academics actually really cool 263 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,840 like it's cool to be a part of this community and cool to like 264 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:46,480 kind of go back to like true. I mean I make. 265 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,520 Games and all I do is think about games, but now it's like I 266 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,720 love being a teacher specifically because like these 267 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:58,040 are kids that are excited to do this and it's like OK cool like 268 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,440 that truly is very rewarding is I'm. 269 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,120 Like it's not. They're not just like, 270 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,840 completely burned out, horribly depressed, like indie game 271 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,520 designers, like the entire space that we're all in. 272 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:10,400 It's crazy. Not yet. 273 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:12,840 Don't worry, we'll get them. There. 274 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:17,800 So yeah, I would say they are incredibly depressed, burned out 275 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:23,160 students, games students. And the games industry, as we 276 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:27,280 all know, is on fire. Right now so. 277 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,000 Like the world. So I have been like, it's been a 278 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,040 lot of like, especially with my seniors, they're like. 279 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,880 What's the fucking point? And I'm like, guys, I know I get 280 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,840 it and there's nothing I can say to make you feel better. 281 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,160 Like we're just jobs are weird right now, but the point. 282 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:47,320 Studios are blowing up though, you know. 283 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:49,600 They are, but they're not hiring. 284 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:51,840 Yeah. Well, no one's hiring. 285 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,200 This is, I mean, Gen. Z is a very interesting because 286 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,080 I think these are going to be like the the last Gen. 287 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,880 Z's or is this alpha now whatever these kids have such 288 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,800 like a a meme nihilism of knowing that the world is 289 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:05,480 completely fucked by the time they get into it. 290 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,880 So it's a it's a great time for them to be alive, which is 291 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,000 great. So question though, because you 292 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:16,480 said you, you do Yeah, you, you said you do more games and 293 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,600 specifically like teach RPG and, and how do you, what are your 294 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:25,000 thoughts on game design as a whole compared to like, let's 295 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,120 say indie game design? Because I feel like there is 296 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:32,080 this at least there's sections of and subsections of like the 297 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,120 scene that we're in, I'll call it that, that are for some 298 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:40,640 reason somehow like morally and, and like culturally opposed to 299 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,560 the idea that we can borrow any kind of design from like video 300 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,040 games or board games or anything, which I think is kind 301 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,000 of fading out a little bit. But what is your thought on like 302 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:54,160 game design as a whole versus RPG design and whether you teach 303 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,640 one versus the other and or both together? 304 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,120 I it's been that's been like a real journey for me is like 305 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,920 really thinking about this, especially as I teach video game 306 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,280 design and and even board game design. 307 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:10,480 It's like there are some core concepts like narrative design 308 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:11,640 is a really good example of this. 309 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:18,960 Like I teach a narrative design class every year and it is 310 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:24,480 really fun for me to be like, oh, this is like a core concept 311 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,359 in interaction and why we do narrative design in a video game 312 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,840 and. Then to go But that's not how 313 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:31,600 role-playing games work. Like, role-playing games 314 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,680 actually don't care about narrative design in the same way 315 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:39,200 that video games do. And so I think there's like I've 316 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,200 been learning more and more like that there is a fundamental 317 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:48,120 split that happens or maybe like they come from different 318 00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:51,040 directions and then they kind of cross paths and intertwine. 319 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,680 But RPG design and then like just other game design from, 320 00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:01,400 from the other disciplines are it's, it's very unique and, and 321 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:07,920 the biggest uniqueness is the fact that like humans, US 322 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:12,120 players are such a big part of the actual systems in play. 323 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:17,960 And like thinking about and having to design around the idea 324 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,000 that like, I won't, not even just I won't be there because 325 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,080 board games are like that. Like I won't be there. 326 00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:26,040 Video games are. I am there because in the form 327 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,760 of like code like how you hard code something is. 328 00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:33,880 As. Directly the designer's presence 329 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:38,800 as possible but then like also like board game culture is you 330 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,480 play by the rules verbatim because you want because just 331 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,440 when you sit down and play a board game you are playing the 332 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,440 system that the designer has created and that's what it is 333 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,800 and you want to get good at it and you want to do this and then 334 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,360 like the you know then it breaks because you're like oh these 335 00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:57,400 rules weren't written great or there's ambiguity and then we. 336 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,320 Kind of add in the human element. 337 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,920 But RBGS is all human element. Even though it is like, you 338 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,840 know, very much like you want to play by the system or you know, 339 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,160 however, if we want to get into that whole discourse, but you 340 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:10,240 know what I mean? Like it's a matter. 341 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,520 It's just that little conversation, that 30 year old 342 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:14,240 conversation, the system matter, yeah. 343 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,640 But like, but you know, there's the game to a role-playing game 344 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,280 and like when why we roll dice and when we roll the dice and 345 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:21,560 what all these different things mean. 346 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,520 But then like. I don't know, there's just like 347 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:29,200 so many like RPGs have such a fundamentally, I think different 348 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,920 idea of why, where and why system needs to be designed and 349 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,880 placed then something like a video game or a board game. 350 00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:40,600 And so like in this greater to go back to like the actual core 351 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,120 question of this, like where do we bring? 352 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,240 What can we learn from and where do we bring? 353 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:51,040 And how do I kind of feel about that is I think there is really 354 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,960 exciting, interesting things mechanically that you can take 355 00:19:54,960 --> 00:20:00,440 from other games. Disciplines like board games are 356 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,400 great because they can show you a lot of different ways you can 357 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,320 interact on a table with pieces and dicing cards and stuff. 358 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,000 So it's like, that's really cool. 359 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:14,360 There's a, Oh my God, a bourbon. There's a lot of fun, 360 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:16,480 interesting stuff there. Video games are great because 361 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:22,560 you can learn a lot about like. How do you get players to do 362 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:28,600 things and thematically and and inspirationally? 363 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,720 Like what does art get you and where does all these different 364 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,440 other elements come to you? And then also as just a 365 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,840 springboard of just cool ideas. It's like, I want to make, you 366 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:45,760 know, how does like a Mass Effect kind of squad system feel 367 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,880 like, or those core kind of crunchy systems want to 368 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,480 translate it? But I think you. 369 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,200 Lose a lot when all you're trying to do is translate like 370 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:05,040 one to another because those gaps and the improv the elements 371 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:09,160 and like appreciating and understanding of the player is 372 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,360 if not half like if at least half of the reason they're 373 00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:21,840 playing it more is such a balancing act that I, I don't 374 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:23,640 know I. Think I'm rambling but like I 375 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,360 think that's like where where it's like. 376 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:29,520 Interesting to find. I'm just thinking about the. 377 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:33,640 Person so much more as an RPG designer than I was before. 378 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:35,520 Is is I think where it's coming from. 379 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:42,040 One thing you said that is an interesting thing was that like 380 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,880 people are part of the system. Like you can, you can design. 381 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,880 And I'm definitely a person who thinks like system, system 382 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,120 matters as much as it needs to matter, but it matters like you 383 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:52,240 should play the game as it's written before you decide to 384 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:53,960 tweak it just because you might not like it because you don't 385 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,000 know how it's going to play until you do like know how to 386 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,360 break it before you break it kind of thing. 387 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,480 But the the thought that or to remember that the players are 388 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,040 part of the system and the things that they do are why 389 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,120 you're doing it and part of the intent design into it is 390 00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:11,760 important and and does can make it different than board games. 391 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:13,760 What not, but that there's again, there's still so much you 392 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,680 can bring in like like search the victory friend of the show. 393 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,040 Big fan of theirs. They did cyclic dungeon design 394 00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:25,320 where they took the level design from unexplored and turned that 395 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,840 into and basically adapted that for tabletop role-playing games 396 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,200 so that you can create like game loops in your system and stuff 397 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,040 like that. Was a great adaptation in my 398 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:38,240 opinion of of a way to bring like video game design into the 399 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,600 TTRPG space in a way that is really interesting. 400 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,480 That can still allow the player to do a lot because it's really 401 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,560 just for level design. It's not about like the actual 402 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,800 improv and stuff like that. But I don't know, it's cool to, 403 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,800 it's neat, and it makes me even more interested in like the 404 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,600 things you're doing in the future, knowing that like you're 405 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,080 not just doing TTRPG design, you're also doing so much other 406 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,920 game design stuff. So really curious to see how 407 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,800 those kind of ideas are going to translate into TTRPGS. 408 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,520 And Speaking of of the other stuff you're working on, one of 409 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,880 the reasons you're here on the show is is above my head right 410 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:13,200 now. It's a land once magic. 411 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,080 That's a current project you're working on. 412 00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:16,720 Yeah. What are you? 413 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,360 So what is what's what's what is a land once magic? 414 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,760 So Landless Magic is a conversational post fantasy 415 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:30,320 world building game where you build a world entirely from the 416 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:35,280 ground up. It's fantasy in feel and nature, 417 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:40,520 but the entire core conceit of the game is to get you to really 418 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,440 break those preconceived notions of what a fantasy world is and 419 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,000 make something that feels like fantasy but looks nothing like 420 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,480 it is. Is kind of the the objective of 421 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,360 it. And it is a land once magic, 422 00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:57,800 because magic is so intrinsically tied to the base 423 00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:00,360 of what your world is built off of. 424 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,640 But something is happening to the magic, like magic is 425 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,560 changing, it's disappearing, it's evolving. 426 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,880 And so how is that also shaking up the world as you build it? 427 00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:17,400 And I mean, like you said, it's very conversational when I, so I 428 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,960 just pulled up the the quick start onto the stream here. 429 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:22,320 We're going to float through that a little bit. 430 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,160 I got very, very and you mentioned microscope before, 431 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,480 like before the the thing started when we randomly we were 432 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:37,920 talking about Kai Snap for no reason, but it it gave me a 433 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,760 little bit of of that kind of the concepts of the world, but 434 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,240 in a little bit was like I'm, I can only assume that you've 435 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,720 played it at some point. Was that in your mind at all 436 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,800 when you were building this, or is that like an inspiration? 437 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,880 It is and it was microscope. I really like microscope. 438 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:58,840 I'm I'm a Big Ben Robbins fan. I'm like that Ben Robbins, king 439 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,520 of world builders in my opinion. But I think microscope was 440 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,600 really big for me. But more specifically, I really 441 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,840 like, I'm sorry to just say, St. Magic by Caro assertion, which 442 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,280 is a microscope hack. Like it's very in its lineage. 443 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,960 And so St. Magic is, is like a big 444 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:25,240 inspiration where this comes from and microscope also on like 445 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,680 this grand scope of a world. So St. magic is like you're just 446 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:33,480 building 1 city in a microscope esque system and microscope 447 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,760 being like you're building a timeline of and that timeline 448 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,120 can span a bunch. I was like, I kind of want to 449 00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:44,480 make something that can be broad like microscope, but specific 450 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,800 like street magic. Yeah, I mean, that's one thing 451 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,880 when going through the quick start. 452 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:54,880 And I think I think those are it's almost exactly what it said 453 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:55,960 to Hunter. I was like, this feels like 454 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:57,400 microscope like way more focused. 455 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,880 Like it's not Microscope is very broad and it's like do whatever 456 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,000 you want and here's how. But here's how you set scenes 457 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,560 and how you can narrow down from like epics to to things, but it 458 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:07,920 doesn't give you like a lot of focus. 459 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:12,760 I feel like the the prompts and the way that it's like walked 460 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,160 through in this provides like a lot more focus to be able to 461 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,680 like when you're done, you have this, this, this world. 462 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,680 And I love at the end where you're like, if you like it, 463 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,680 play it with another game now, just like run with it. 464 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,480 But for those that haven't yet downloaded the free quick start 465 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,000 that you can get at the links that will be down below before 466 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:38,240 you go back in on back start, What what how does the game play 467 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,040 like? Just walk us through like kind 468 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,080 of a little bit of what you actually do for the game. 469 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,200 No, so like the game, I say it's a conversational world builder 470 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,360 because it is truly I wanted to make this a very streamlined 471 00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:54,320 very like you're just chatting with people. 472 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,440 So the game starts with if you kind of see the the spreads, 473 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,760 like the entering the world is like you start by making a 474 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,360 pallet and some touchstones. And these are the pallet is just 475 00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:09,080 like a couple evocative words that get everybody kind of just 476 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,960 thinking in abstracts about what they want this world to look 477 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,080 like. And then touchdowns are 478 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:21,800 specifically non fantasy pieces of media or things that you want 479 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:26,320 to draw inspiration from. So it's like very like I say 480 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,720 Cowboy Bebop because I really like Cowboy Bebop, but I'm like, 481 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,480 I want to talk about it. I want to bring in its 482 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,760 soundtrack because I think that's very interesting. 483 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,920 And then other people will bring in other stuff and they can get 484 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,280 really weird and they can get really abstract or really 485 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,920 specific. I know for a fact the next time 486 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,360 I play Eleno's Magic, I'm like, I really just want to be 487 00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:50,440 explicit and I want to say Max. I want to be like, my touch tone 488 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,000 is Gundam Max and just see where that takes us, right? 489 00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:59,080 And then the rest of the game is just drawing cards, like playing 490 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:03,920 cards on random prompt tables. And they'll either give you kind 491 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,880 of like prompts or like fragments of sentences that you 492 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,560 can then kind of expand on your own. 493 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,200 Like a legend gives you like a legend is told of a 494 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,400 contemplative scholar. Their tales tell of unifying 495 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,360 liberation, right? Like these are just like vague 496 00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:25,760 but evocative, or they're specifically like prompt 497 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:27,640 questions. And then you answer them and 498 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,560 then you go around. So it's just you go around, you 499 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:35,320 draw cards, see what they tell you answer them, and then you 500 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,400 just kind of start chatting about it. 501 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,320 Like that's the whole point is you just kind of start having 502 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,320 this little conversation of like, Oh, well, here's the 503 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,640 question I answer. But then somebody else at the 504 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,440 table will be like, Oh, I have an idea for that. 505 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,080 Or do you want to take a pitch or, or even just being like, I 506 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,560 really like what you said there. My question, I'm going to just 507 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,720 pull off from that and be like, I like what you established. 508 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:04,840 Let me kind of come back to it. I'm actually like talking about 509 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,720 like the the prior conversation we were having about like the 510 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,880 players, how much a part of the game is what makes RPGs unique. 511 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:20,720 Elena's magic is is really, I think like a a a real honing in 512 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:26,560 on that is I the thing I love about this game is that 513 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,960 eventually, like people kind of forget that they need to draw 514 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:36,000 another card or like one prompt Spurs like a 10 minute, 15 515 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,920 minute discussion that has completely dwarfed the scope of 516 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:42,880 what that singular question was about. 517 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,080 And they're just kind of coming off. 518 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,200 And then at some point somebody will be like, oh, like. 519 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,000 Should I draw my next card? And they're like, yeah, oh, we 520 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,680 have to finish this table. And like, that's kind of why. 521 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,320 And it's a type of game I really like, especially when it comes 522 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,320 to world building games I like. I don't see a lot of world 523 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,360 building games all the time or or just games in general that 524 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,800 are have no role play. So I never need to go into a 525 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:12,960 mode where I have to like embody a character but still are like 526 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,800 exciting to get the the pieces going. 527 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:19,560 Even microscope still has like scenes and I really like. 528 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,280 I like, I love microscope and I and there's absolutely nothing. 529 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:23,920 Wrong with the. Role-playing or the scenes of 530 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,640 it, it's just always the part that like pulls me out because 531 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,000 now I'm like, oh, I have to like embody something. 532 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,920 I have to like be a person when I've just really enjoyed the the 533 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,640 broad kind of what ifs and. Like, oh, I have an idea for 534 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,080 that. I think so, yeah, that's kind of 535 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:45,040 like how it plays is you just kind of go through it question 536 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:46,200 by question, talking and talking. 537 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,480 And then it ends with a journey in the land, kind of like what 538 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,400 you mentioned, also of like I go, all right, you've like kind 539 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,600 of made a world. And then you end by zooming in 540 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,920 fully. And then it's not in the book 541 00:30:58,920 --> 00:30:59,960 right now. But it's going to be in the 542 00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:04,120 final, which is like you then all go around and essentially 543 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,840 make a character you don't like have to role play as them. 544 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,200 But you go what is like a thing about this world that you would 545 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,680 like to explore in the form of a character. 546 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,320 So it's like, oh, we're with a caravan and I remember us 547 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,760 talking about like, you know, merchants that ride giant 548 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,120 beetles. I want to be a beetle rider. 549 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,640 Like that's a guy who I think is so cool in this run. 550 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,880 Somebody else would be like, oh, I want to be like, you know, a 551 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:35,240 spell slinging guard who can RIP earth apart. 552 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,080 You're like, yeah, you know, and then cool and like, go. 553 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,240 Ahead and then. Then it's like an open-ended 554 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,000 like take this world somewhere else, actually explore those 555 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:49,440 characters in a different system or just leave it be, let it go. 556 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,920 It's. Really interesting. 557 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,000 I like, it's funny because like that's kind of the exact same 558 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,840 part of about microscope that I'm not the biggest fan of. 559 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,280 Like I do like setting the epics in the history and like filling 560 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:02,880 out the cards and making a timeline. 561 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:04,960 But like you said, as soon as you're like, here's a scene, now 562 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,240 you have to go play somebody, You're like, OK, well, this is 563 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,400 the whole thing. It's really interesting that I 564 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,680 like that. The idea is that you you always 565 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,560 stay kind of zoomed out when you're when you're playing the 566 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,600 game and the building is the playing. 567 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,800 It's not you know, you're not necessarily building this poo 568 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,400 then zoom in. It is the zoomed out thing is 569 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,800 the game like that just the whole part of it like you can if 570 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,600 you want, then do more with it, but you're always kind of you 571 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,520 know one step back from from that, and that's a really neat. 572 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:37,360 It's neat 'cause you can do you can just build. 573 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,760 You can endless worlds like the humpbacks guy filled as much as 574 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:45,720 you want and that's fantastic. I my question was gonna be like 575 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,520 why? But you answered it as you went 576 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,120 through it. Because this sounds fucking 577 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,880 awesome. Because the world building is 578 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:53,400 the fun part and stuff like that. 579 00:32:53,400 --> 00:33:00,640 So the game is on backer kid as part of pocket Topia, right? 580 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,480 Pocket Topia, first year for Pocket Topia. 581 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,080 How is that going on, Backer kid? 582 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,920 Pretty good, I would say. I think, I think pretty good. 583 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,640 I It seems like there's some 60 some projects and we've like 55 584 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,160 from them have been funded if I. Oh nice. 585 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,680 Have that. 54 out of 66, yeah. Yeah, which is like, I think 586 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,920 pretty solid. Yeah, definitely overall, 587 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,920 especially as like an event post literally right after Zinequest. 588 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:31,880 I feel like that's also really good. 589 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,120 So it's either touching a new audience, which I think is 590 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:40,080 exciting for us to have like another event that's very RPG 591 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,520 friendly that, you know, isn't just hey, here's like one single 592 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,840 month for everyone to fund everything at once. 593 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,320 And also it's on like, you know, it's on. 594 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,520 It's good to see backer kit is also doing events that are like 595 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,400 gaining its own traction and it's willing to like pull a 596 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,520 bunch of people into it. I think it's coming pretty. 597 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,120 Well, I think all things considered, I, I'm not like the 598 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,200 best at metrics on like a grand scale, but like knowing where's 599 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,760 this is, you know, not to, not to get weird about like knowing 600 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,560 that like Zine quest every year is kind of getting harder and 601 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,639 harder. It's nice to know that this is 602 00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:17,120 like a level of this is a success rate that I think is 603 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,639 exciting to see. And you guys funded? 604 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,639 You funded. Did you find day one? 605 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:29,080 We found a day one, day one five hours we were. 606 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,120 Very. You're at over 13 1/2 thousand 607 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,679 on a $5000 goal, so you're almost triple it up and still 608 00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:38,440 have like 10 days left, which is fantastic to see. 609 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,880 I mean, like you said, Pocket Topia is really interesting. 610 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,360 Friend of the show Marco has a thing on Pocketopia, so I was 611 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,880 talking to him a lot about it. So really interesting idea. 612 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,760 Like you said, I was worried Marco's doing Blackthorn. 613 00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,480 Yeah, spicy tuna. But my worry, I guess, and I 614 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,320 think we were me and were talking a little bit was like 615 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,680 it's red Brazil quest, like everyone's broke as fuck. 616 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,160 Because I know I spent way too much money on scene, well less 617 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,760 than previous ones. But it's great that I mean, it's 618 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,760 I mean, I like that backer kit has the metrics here. 619 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,480 It's raised over $700,000 just in pocket Tobia. 620 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,520 So it's really cool to see something like you said, pretty 621 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,440 successful, like off of Kickstarter, which anytime that 622 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,000 you can not do something on Kickstarter is great. 623 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,360 Like is it possible not to if you want to make money? 624 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,240 That's just how it works. But it's really cool. 625 00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:30,240 The backer kit has become more and more and more viable, 626 00:35:30,240 --> 00:35:32,480 especially as other things like crowdfunder and stuff kind of 627 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,360 fell off. But but anyway, the project is 628 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,960 on backer kit. Tell me about when people go 629 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,600 back this what can they actually get as part of the product, part 630 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:48,120 of the project? Nope. 631 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:50,760 Oh, I'm so excited to tell you about that. 632 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,280 I think we're, I think we're losing is a tiny bit. 633 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,440 That's the way. Oh, am I here? 634 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,640 You're you're, you're in short motion. 635 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,160 No, Yeah. But it is unstable. 636 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,600 Hold on, hold on. Let me see. 637 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:18,720 You're tuning in, folks. I think we're. 638 00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:20,560 I think we're. Oh, I'm sorry. 639 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,000 Oh no, you're good. This is what editing is for. 640 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,360 I think we're coming back in. My back OK. 641 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,760 I think you're back enough, we'll make it work. 642 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:30,720 I think we're coming back. I don't know. 643 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,640 Yeah, I can see that. Everything's a little fuzzy for 644 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,400 me. We're a podcast anyways, so 645 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,680 don't worry about that. So that's what matters about 646 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,320 yeah, there. We go, the audio's back. 647 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:47,640 OK, good, good, good, good, good. 648 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,720 So I'm very excited to tell you about what you get from this 649 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,960 because Elliot Davis, who's more blueberries publishing it made 650 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:02,440 incredible games. The time we have ROM com drama 651 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,440 bomb project echo like. At least great. 652 00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:09,120 Always I'm shouting about, but we kind of had this whole thing 653 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:09,880 where. We were like, all right. 654 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,720 Simple book. Like I was like, Elliot, I want 655 00:37:12,720 --> 00:37:14,880 to publish Elaine One's magic. I'd love to do it with you. 656 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,360 And he goes, cool, yeah. And I go, let's just do a small 657 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,840 little thing. It'll just be a book, and we're 658 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,240 not going to bloat. It doesn't need to get a lot. 659 00:37:24,240 --> 00:37:28,760 And I just wanted to be simple, like I want books out in stores 660 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,400 and I want more physicals. And he goes. 661 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:32,480 Great. We'll do it. 662 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:39,080 It's like we both are like like what if, what if it's a pocket 663 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,880 game and we, we both, we both and we're like, what if it's 664 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,760 like open spine like or we both we want it to be lay flat 665 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,760 because it's a game of like random tables. 666 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,200 And that to me is like, you want to be able to put that book. 667 00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:54,280 On the on the table. And it lays flash and you don't 668 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,920 need to worry about it. I love a lay flat specifically 669 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:58,160 for a game that you got a reference. 670 00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:04,280 And so we're there, OK, what if we do open spine and they were 671 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,160 like, uh oh, like that bumps are cost a little bit more. 672 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,360 So we're like, oh, you get like a nice ASICS open spine book. 673 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,440 An ASICS book is I usually have one on me, but like it's small. 674 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,120 It's more. Bag. 675 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,680 Size than it is necessarily pocket pocket, but like you toss 676 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,080 it in a bag, toss it in like a pocket somewhere in a jacket 677 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,480 pocket. It's great, beautiful art. 678 00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:26,640 And then we were also like, we were looking at all of our 679 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,440 favorite kind of board games. And we're like, you know what we 680 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,240 love? I love a board game that comes 681 00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:34,080 in a bag. Yeah, there we go. 682 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:38,040 And like that fits in. Like I guess to shout out world 683 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,760 champ Gameco again, that fits in your world champ Little Fanny's 684 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:42,520 sling. Really good. 685 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,160 But we're like, oh, we love, we love little board games that 686 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:53,640 come in little drawstring bags. What if we have a drawstring 687 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,920 bag? And then it just kind of kept 688 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:57,280 getting like we were like, we can't bloat it. 689 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,240 We can't bloat it. We're not going to do it, but 690 00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:01,480 what about the bag? And we can't just have a single 691 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,520 book in a bag. What about a notebook to record 692 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,960 all your stuff in? And so if you if you're going 693 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:13,160 back to the game, you can either get just the book, which again 694 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:17,200 is it's going to be a beautiful ASICS little pocket sized world 695 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,320 builder, or you can get the. Bag bundle, which has a little 696 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,400 drawstring bag, a notebook that you can write all your worlds 697 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:29,120 in, and then the game itself. And I will hand stamp every bag 698 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:34,760 with the like logo of Elaine One's Magic because I like to 699 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,560 make stamps. Actually, I love little bit of 700 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,520 carving and then stamping, so that'll be really nice. 701 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,480 So it'll be personalized. You know, here's the thing as 702 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:45,600 far. As I think that's. 703 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,040 The as far as the bloat of what a project could be, because 704 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:53,000 trust me, I often will get all of the things that I'm trying to 705 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:54,040 not get. All the things. 706 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,280 Having just a book, a notebook and then having them both in a 707 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,200 bag is probably like the least bloat like you could have done 708 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:05,000 whilst flying. So I think you did a good job of 709 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:09,560 keeping it reasonable. Elliot and Chet said, thankfully 710 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,680 we talked each other out of a custom card deck because we're 711 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,920 like, well, it's a like we can't do like dice because it's a it's 712 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,000 a playing card based game. What if we do a deck of cards 713 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,880 and we both would just have to be like, no, stop that, like 714 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,320 calm down. And then like my running, my 715 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,360 running joke with Elliot every time we're like, oh, what should 716 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:29,160 we do for like a stretch goal? And like, you know, we're doing 717 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,840 pretty well funding, which is, which is great. 718 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:37,400 And I go look, hear me out. Metal coins, and there's no 719 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,440 reason to have a coin in this game, but just for the bloat, 720 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,720 just to be like, hey, we have metal coins. 721 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:47,440 What about minis? You know, custom minis to just 722 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,560 raise everything up. Yeah, meatballs from a 723 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,120 completely different factory so that we have to like put 724 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,000 multiple things together so we can like ship it out as like a 725 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:56,680 whole bag. Too. 726 00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:57,800 Funny. Yeah. 727 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,560 I love the idea of meatball custom custom cut meatballs that 728 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:02,120 do nothing. This. 729 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:07,200 Game requires none of it, yeah. They will hold the coin for you 730 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:08,720 that you don't need for the game. 731 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,840 And then the deck of cards that is $0.50 at CVS or Walgreens, 732 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,680 but you can get them from us for a lot more. 733 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,080 No, it's great. And I mean, and the, I know the, 734 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:24,440 the, the, it's, it's extremely, what's the best way to say it's 735 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,000 cost effective? I mean, the whole, the early 736 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,960 bird bundle's like 35 bucks. That's crazy. 737 00:41:28,240 --> 00:41:32,640 Like that's such a, for, for a book with like a Coptic spine 738 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,280 and then a notebook and then a bag that you're going to hand 739 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,360 stamp to 35 is a crazy price. I don't know what I mean. 740 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,320 That's obviously that's what I backed at. 741 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:45,840 I don't know what the what the other tiers are after. 742 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:48,920 We really like and again, that kind of had to do with like we 743 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:50,440 wanted to do something quick and small. 744 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,120 So like I think our only other like big tier, you know, in like 745 00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:58,960 in crowdfunding terminology is like, you know, you're kind of 746 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:03,640 big swing of a tier is. Just like play with me, which is 747 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:07,800 a usual kind of classic 1. So like for like 100 bucks you 748 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,440 we'll schedule a time to play this game with me in Elliot. 749 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:12,960 But even then we were like that's kind of it. 750 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:17,560 Like it's like no box, no alternate cover, like nothing, 751 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,080 like even our deluxe edition isn't even a deluxe. 752 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,840 It's just a bag, right? I don't know, I like it right 753 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:28,920 and and IA lot of it's it's I again shout out to Elliot 754 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:30,800 because he fucking knows business. 755 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,000 I'm pretty sure like all of these, like we're not like it is 756 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:36,760 cheap. Like it's a we figured out how 757 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:38,600 to do this. Like pretty surprisingly cheap. 758 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:43,640 It doesn't didn't take a lot. Yeah, like 40 bucks for a bag 759 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,920 and an extra notebook is like actually pretty easy and pretty 760 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,800 doable. It's kind of nice. 761 00:42:49,240 --> 00:42:51,000 I was surprised. I thought this was going to be 762 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,320 more expensive when we were kind of talking about it and he was 763 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,160 like, no, I think we can just do that. 764 00:42:56,240 --> 00:42:58,920 No, well, what's interesting too is like, I mean, I've I've I've 765 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,040 acted immediately, I've obviously read the press kit. 766 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,680 I've read this a million times. I don't think I ever noticed, 767 00:43:04,720 --> 00:43:08,280 even though I saw it a bunch. A6 lay flat like the Coptic spot 768 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,520 on a six. I don't I have a lot of games. 769 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,520 I have a lot of shit right, and I have a ton of like lay flat 770 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:15,120 Coptic printed stuff, everything. 771 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:21,640 I know that I don't have a like Coptic stitch A6 book. 772 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,240 That is a very interesting print and choice. 773 00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:27,760 Someone in chat actually said, do you mind sharing who the 774 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,240 printer was from that? Maybe we can send that to them 775 00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:34,080 after. But that's an interesting 776 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:35,280 choice. First of all, like you said, 777 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,000 like flat is great. It's also going to be on the 778 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:38,440 shelf better. I mean, I know a lot of people 779 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:40,640 you did the the spiral bound on the notebook. 780 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:45,600 I know there's a lot of people. I mean that like spiral bounds 781 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:47,920 don't fit great on shelves for selling them in stores and stuff 782 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:49,080 like that. So that's why people don't do 783 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,080 them as much, even though I think they're they're superior 784 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:52,800 version of tabletop role-playing games. 785 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,720 But it's it's interesting, it's interesting choice to do a lay 786 00:43:58,720 --> 00:44:02,320 flat A6. Have you got it? 787 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,080 Have you got 1 yet? Like have you seen a prototype? 788 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,960 So we have it. And. 789 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:11,440 I, I will. I'm. 790 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,480 I'm actually I'm. Pretty sure I'm going to just 791 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,280 make one myself because I also want to see how it is and it 792 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,040 won't be as pretty and it won't be as good but like I can get a 793 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:23,960 vibe of it because bookbinding is a is a side hobby of mine. 794 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:27,080 Yeah, I love. I love the. 795 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:28,360 Nice comic, Stitch. Yeah, Yeah. 796 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,680 Yeah. Holy God, yeah, here we go. 797 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,040 Yeah, I know you were throwing on Coptic stitch and I was like 798 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:37,160 we we know what's happening. We're all here for it. 799 00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:40,240 And I like making Coptics. Actually that's must of little 800 00:44:40,240 --> 00:44:43,480 books I make. But what I was going to say so I 801 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:48,320 haven't we haven't seen it yet. The the printing is our printers 802 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:55,080 tiger printing, I'm pretty sure is the name of it and Min Chao, 803 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:59,320 who's the one who who is the person behind it was also like a 804 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:03,080 little like. So this is a bit unorthodox. 805 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:09,080 I but and is like usually to get a nice open spine like Coptic is 806 00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,880 to they need to be a little bigger than what? 807 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,160 Like, I mean, not even just in size, but like in thickness. 808 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:21,080 Like we're like, we're like potentially 62 pages is as big 809 00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:25,160 as we'll get. And she's like, OK, well, we can 810 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,040 do it. But it's been really nice. 811 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,560 Like she's she's a very active printer. 812 00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,200 Like she talked to us a bunch. We actually Elliot and I got to 813 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,360 meet her at breakout con cuz she was at. 814 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,240 Toronto Comic Con and we just happened to bump into her and so 815 00:45:39,240 --> 00:45:41,360 we had a nice little chat about paperweight. 816 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,200 Like that's how excited she just pulled out a bunch of paper like 817 00:45:44,240 --> 00:45:46,000 book samples. It was like, what do you think 818 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,760 about this paper? And and like half of that 819 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,800 question was, what do you think about that paper for your book? 820 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,800 And I'm pretty sure the other half is, isn't this paper really 821 00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,400 cool? And I love like that energy, you 822 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,680 know, but she seems to be like, we can do it and I'll make sure 823 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:04,920 it works. And so like, that's kind of 824 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,880 where I'm like, I, I have full faith that this will work out 825 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:13,560 because of our printer. She seems so she's like, I'll 826 00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:15,600 figure it out, I'll do it. Oh, frontier scum is it? 827 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:16,640 Yeah. I was wondering if you're going 828 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:18,280 to pull that. Out I wanted to show because 829 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,880 like I have I have a couple other I have the bloody one and 830 00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:21,920 then I have to frolick nightmares. 831 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,520 It's all black, but like this is my camera's going to like not do 832 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:27,560 it well, but I just want to make sure that people on the stream 833 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:28,960 kind of get a little bit of example. 834 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:33,040 If you don't know what like the open open spine is, I think this 835 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,560 is one of the one of the early ones that kind of did it that 836 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,760 kind of blew up. Phil Jensen put out a Merkborg 837 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,440 one too that had an interesting one, but it literally is open 838 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:43,880 spine and you see the exposed stitching. 839 00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,400 They do still glue these a bunch. 840 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,920 I know I don't glue the ones that I do, but I'm not mass 841 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,720 producing them either. But again, I'm so excited and 842 00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,800 we're obsessed with A6 here on the show, too. 843 00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:02,760 It's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, they're great. 844 00:47:03,720 --> 00:47:07,440 I'm so happy actually. Yeah, so it's gonna be cool to 845 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:08,920 see all that, but yeah, it's crazy. 846 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:14,040 So the tiers here, $10.00 for the digital tier 20 for the 847 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,640 physical, 30 for assigned edition 40. 848 00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,880 Now if you missed the early bird for the bundle that you talked 849 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,880 about with the the book, the notebook and the bag and then a 850 00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:28,080 hundred that you said again, extremely cost effective, really 851 00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,080 affordable. I mean, thirty, I was surprised 852 00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,240 where I was like, wait, you get a bag 2 and it's $35. 853 00:47:32,240 --> 00:47:35,640 It's crazy talking about like the value that you get from a 854 00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,000 project. And again, it's a Vidicha Vidi 855 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:39,480 project. So it's going to be fire. 856 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,480 Like we all know that. I'm very excited for it and had 857 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:45,080 Elliot on the show as well too. And they're and they're 858 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,120 fantastic. So you 2 working together is is 859 00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:51,640 really wonderful. Also, we we're going to add a 860 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:56,800 this is just a well, we'll add an add on for getting even if 861 00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,680 you got the bag bundle, you can get an add on to get it signed 862 00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:01,200 as well. We just know that there was like 863 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,800 some weird like bundly things, but I think. 864 00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:06,800 We also have. Add-ons like if you want to get 865 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:12,840 more games from Elliot's collection or no space between 866 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,280 Star and not Space Goblins is not an add on. 867 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:17,120 Never mind. I was about to say that. 868 00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:21,240 But yeah, you can also grab like a bunch of cool other games as 869 00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:26,200 well with your kit, your backer kit. 870 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,000 Didn't have all of Elliot's games already. 871 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:30,520 I would I would throw them on there. 872 00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:35,960 But and so you we talked about this for the show you you've 873 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:41,880 done, you're doing a really nice like press like run for this. 874 00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,040 For those that haven't or are curious about how the game is 875 00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,480 played, we talked about, you know, how it is played, but 876 00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,640 didn't actually get to play it. You've done a bunch of apps 877 00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:51,120 already and or they're coming out. 878 00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:55,440 I know I saw I think posted this morning the one shot pod posted, 879 00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:58,080 I think Part 2 of one, but there's a couple of different 880 00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:03,240 ones. For those that haven't seen all 881 00:49:03,240 --> 00:49:04,760 of that, they're listed on the backer kit. 882 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:09,480 But what are some of the other places that you've been on that 883 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:11,760 people can hear kind of more information about this or or 884 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,520 that you've done a PS on? So there's a few different 885 00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:19,720 places I've I've been on to listen to actual place for this, 886 00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,720 the one shot podcast. There's Part 2 just came out 887 00:49:22,720 --> 00:49:25,600 today. So I think about a three parter, 888 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:30,240 maybe a four part, I'm not actually sure, but that's me, 889 00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:36,320 Dylan Napoleon, the host of the one shot 3 parter, and Jeff 890 00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,440 Stormer and Aaron Cadanesias, two of my favorite people in the 891 00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,000 whole wide world. They make, I mean Jeff Stormer, 892 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,480 party of one and also my mortal enemy. 893 00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,760 But then the him and Aaron make a podcast called All My Fantasy 894 00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:53,720 Children where they just kind of riff and make fantasy characters 895 00:49:53,720 --> 00:49:57,840 and places in a shared universe. And I basically made this game 896 00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:02,680 for them is kind of a thing. So because Elena's magic is 897 00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:07,360 deeply inspired by that podcast and how that friendship and how 898 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:10,400 they talk and build. So I would say like, I really 899 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:12,360 love how we did that. And if you want kind of a 900 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,960 platonic ideal of what what this game does, go listen to that. 901 00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:21,800 We also did talk of the table I or many side of media in general 902 00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,400 like with Elliot, I talk at the table or if you want to hear me 903 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:29,000 talk about the game and my first dungeon episode where. 904 00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:32,760 We play it and I love the world that we made there. 905 00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:38,120 Oh my God, reckless. A talk is coming out tomorrow 906 00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:43,040 with Nathan, which was a lovely conversation that we had and 907 00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:48,320 yes, indeed, with Thomas Manuel was, I think, a really great 908 00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,320 interview. Thomas is such a good 909 00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:55,400 interviewer and such a smart person that I was like, oh 910 00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:58,800 Thomas, you're making me realize things about my game that I 911 00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:00,480 didn't even. Know it was about so if you 912 00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:04,640 wanna hear that I think that's a really fun listen gosh, I really 913 00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,600 hope I don't miss anything and then later this week I mean on. 914 00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,320 Actually later today, not to continue to promo real quick, 915 00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:14,240 but. Later today we have. 916 00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:19,880 I guess this is where it is on our backward kit page, me and 917 00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,160 Nat. I've forgotten that's last name. 918 00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:29,320 Mesnard, who has another Pocket Tobia game called Assemblage, 919 00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:33,680 Another world building game. We're just going to kind of chat 920 00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:35,480 today. So if you want to hear more 921 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,320 about Elena's magic and also learn more about a really cool 922 00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:42,120 other world building RPG that's on Pocket Topia right now, 923 00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:43,800 that'll be happening later today. 924 00:51:44,720 --> 00:51:49,960 And then on Wednesday we're going to do a stream with Who am 925 00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:52,280 I Rolling or sorry, what am I Rolling? 926 00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:56,720 Which is a stream for on the One Shot Network. 927 00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:58,160 So you'll hear about that later also. 928 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:00,440 Yeah, we've been doing a lot. Oh my. 929 00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,240 You're making our rounds. I'm exhausted. 930 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:05,720 It was just. Just just marching you out there 931 00:52:05,720 --> 00:52:06,920 and just running your way in there. 932 00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:09,920 Absolutely what he's doing. There you go. 933 00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,680 Hey, it worked. You're almost triple funded So 934 00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,680 and with with 10 days to go. So again, this this project 935 00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:18,040 sounds great. Super excited for it. 936 00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,240 I, I think we kind of already talked about what's coming soon 937 00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:26,800 in the future for you and that is the wonderful marriage 938 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,160 between you and world champ doing blood beam Badlands. 939 00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,440 Anything else currently kind of float on the horizon or is this 940 00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:35,400 and that kind of your primary focus? 941 00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,680 Well, so I I have I have there's a three major things for me 942 00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:40,320 that's like front and center of my brain. 943 00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,400 This is what I care about right now is Elena's magic is 944 00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,560 happening right now and then blood beam Badlands with world 945 00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:49,400 champ and then also it's been announced but. 946 00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:54,000 Space between stars which is my space opera GM list space opera 947 00:52:54,000 --> 00:53:00,720 campaign world build like slash world building game is being 948 00:53:00,720 --> 00:53:04,720 published by the possible worlds Tyler comran's. 949 00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:07,560 World. Games that's coming out, that's 950 00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:11,720 going to be published in 2026, so that's later on, but later 951 00:53:11,720 --> 00:53:15,480 this year I'll release an updated quick start with a lot 952 00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:17,000 of the designs that I've been doing. 953 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,920 That's a game I've been passively I released. 954 00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:24,800 I came six years ago as my college undergrad thesis. 955 00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:28,160 And then it's been slowly, I've been playing it and updating it, 956 00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:33,200 and that's coming out in 2026. And then to be honest, I really 957 00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,320 just, I kind of miss making some new stuff. 958 00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,920 So you'll probably see have some little ideas that I want to 959 00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:41,040 make. I have another big idea that I 960 00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:42,760 want to make that I'm going to figure out. 961 00:53:43,720 --> 00:53:47,400 You're going to make your your DND killer Breakers. 962 00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:51,480 Coming. Yeah, yeah, I. 963 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,720 Think D is doing a good job killing itself at this point so. 964 00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,160 Exactly for. Project Signal, you know, 965 00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:03,360 exciting to see how that's working out, you know, but 966 00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,040 Speaking of blood being Badlands, Speaking of us 967 00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:09,240 pitching the stars and everything, where can people 968 00:54:09,240 --> 00:54:11,640 find those currently? Because I know, I mean, like we 969 00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,680 said, we looked at that got to be like a year and a half ago. 970 00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:16,320 So there, there's still plenty of that. 971 00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:18,080 You can play with that now and with both. 972 00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:22,000 So what? Where can people find your 973 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,760 stuff? Yeah, my stuff can be found at 974 00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:29,000 vidito valedi dot H dot IO. That's my main. 975 00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:30,920 Like that's where all my games live. 976 00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:36,480 I like to release games in early access forms and playable forms, 977 00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:42,040 so you're welcome to grab the games, play them, try them out. 978 00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,080 They're very playable and really good even in the state in my 979 00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,600 opinion. And then just get excited for 980 00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:48,280 when. They. 981 00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:51,320 Properly release with layout and additional content. 982 00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:56,000 And then you can check me out also at Blue Sky at video Table 983 00:54:56,000 --> 00:55:02,360 Eddie, if you want to just know any updates on kind of like what 984 00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:08,080 where my projects are, what else I'm making various errant 985 00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:09,720 thoughts about games that I have there. 986 00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:14,400 You go, we'll make sure that all of those links are down there. 987 00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,400 We'll make sure that the link to the backer kid is on there too. 988 00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:21,800 I know I put it over here. It's the ALOMRPG dot world. 989 00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:25,200 I love when I'm so happy that some of the designers use like 990 00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:27,880 the little URL so I don't have to put the entire thing across 991 00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:30,560 the street. So that's great when we go back 992 00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:32,240 this go grab everything from Vidicha. 993 00:55:32,240 --> 00:55:34,560 Listen, it's it's been an absolute pleasure. 994 00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:35,760 Again. We've been a fan of yours for a 995 00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,040 long time. I was so glad when Elliot 996 00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:39,440 reached out was like, hey, do you want to talk to them? 997 00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:41,880 Was I guess we I could do. I wanted to forever. 998 00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,120 So it was wonderful to talk to. Please come back on anytime you 999 00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:52,000 want and I'm really looking forward to a six lay flat world 1000 00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,120 building game that is Elaine most magic I think. 1001 00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:57,440 Very excited for this. We're we're Elliott and I are 1002 00:55:57,440 --> 00:55:59,800 book freaks. I love that you 2 are also Yeah, 1003 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:04,600 freaks like to that level, you know, I love the no also. 1004 00:56:04,720 --> 00:56:05,960 Thank you so much for having me on. 1005 00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:10,680 I'm a huge fan of y'all too and truly I I can't express how much 1006 00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:14,360 like that blood bean band lens review like really made me go oh 1007 00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,760 shit like I like it filled. Me with rejuvenation. 1008 00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:20,880 So I I I wanna pass the thanks on to y'all as well then I'm a 1009 00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:22,560 big fan. Thanks. 1010 00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:24,440 I mean, I can't wait. And again, obviously, you know, 1011 00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:26,680 we've we've said over and over again, this is an out of a stand 1012 00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:29,360 podcast. So the fact that you're doing 1013 00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:31,000 that with with that was fantastic. 1014 00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:34,960 Yeah. So, so, yeah, so that is us 1015 00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:36,440 though. Make sure you check out the 1016 00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:38,840 backer kit page and it's going to have links to all of the 1017 00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:43,320 other interviews and APS that Vidita talked about today and go 1018 00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,000 go back, go back the project. And once again, thank you so 1019 00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:47,280 much for being here. We really appreciate it. 1020 00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:50,040 Yeah. Thank you for having. 1021 00:56:50,240 --> 00:56:52,520 Me OK And then that is going to be us for today. 1022 00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:54,640 So thank you everyone in chat for being here and we will talk 1023 00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:55,840 to you all later. Bye. 1024 00:56:55,840 --> 00:57:11,320 Bye. Yeah.