1 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:16,720 Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll Podcast. 2 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,280 My name is Ryan. And I think billionaires are the 3 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:23,080 real demons. And today, we're joined by a 4 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,560 very special guest. This is Zachary, also known as 5 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:27,040 Jelly Muppet all over the Internet. 6 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,720 How you doing today, Zach? Hey, Ryan. 7 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:32,400 Hey Hunter. How are you guys both doing? 8 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,360 Yeah, having a good, a good nice warm evening here in the UK. 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,160 Stokes to have you back on. Welcome back, You know, good to 10 00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:43,000 see you. Yeah, I gotta say, this is like 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,880 my 5th weekly scroll or something now. 12 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,440 It must be, but we've done a lot of these talking about books. 13 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,200 Yeah, I think probably after Jer, who is like a regular guest 14 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,560 at this point, I think you've probably been on the show more 15 00:00:55,560 --> 00:01:02,280 than literally anybody else. Well then I'll do what I can to 16 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,879 upstage as always, like one of my. 17 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:06,920 One of my. Mission missions in life. 18 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,400 I also think we probably reviewed, yeah, I think we 19 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,720 probably reviewed more Soul Muppet Games than than any other 20 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,240 any other publisher. I'm pretty positive we are. 21 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,360 Long standing soul Muppet fans. Yeah. 22 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,840 We did put in a lot of games. Well, you've put a lot of good 23 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:26,920 games is yeah, put a lot of good games. 24 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,760 We don't review bad games. So I think that that says 25 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:31,840 something. And we were talking before 26 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,160 stream that you guys have been pretty busy because a lot of 27 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:36,760 stuff is hitting people's hands right now. 28 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,040 Like I said, I have Gardens of yen and Anesthesia Library, just 29 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:42,680 got all my Orbital Blues Afterburn stuff. 30 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,120 So a lot of stuff is hitting hands from Soul Muppet early 31 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:51,840 this year. The main thing I'm sad about is 32 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,280 that the people who are listening to this is a podcast 33 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,160 rather than watching it on Live of us on Twitch or YouTube at 34 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,720 the moment cannot see what those Orbital Blues books look like. 35 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:06,400 Specifically the VHS Adventure Collection box set full of 36 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:12,400 pamphlets, which is was. While it was a logistical 37 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:18,200 nightmare to make and find, I'm now very happy that it exists 38 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:23,120 and people will be able to run sad space cowboy campaigns with 39 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,040 it. So like, that's a big win for 40 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,000 us, but yeah. Extraordinarily cool. 41 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:33,360 I have my roommate collects like media and he has collect VHS and 42 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,000 he's like oh what's that? I'm like Nah, not for you 43 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:37,760 brother the. Same for you brother. 44 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:39,280 This does this does something different? 45 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,120 Yeah, yeah. I think, I think one of the last 46 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,560 times you were on probably to talk about Afterburn, you were 47 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,280 talking about how hard it was to to source the VHSS. 48 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:49,440 And they did. They came out so beautifully. 49 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:51,680 If you're in podcast land, definitely, you know, Hunter, 50 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:53,640 show that up one more time. And I'm sure at some point 51 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:56,000 we'll, we'll, we'll throw it up on screen and talk about it too. 52 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,320 And it'll be on the sole Muppet shelf behind me. 53 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:00,760 But yeah, they're gorgeous. Yeah. 54 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,640 But on top of that, the reason you're here, the logo above my 55 00:03:04,640 --> 00:03:08,000 head today, you're here to talk about Mad as Hell. 56 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,120 So I guess just to kick what what is what's, what's the 57 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:13,800 pitch, what is what is mad as hell. 58 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,760 Though Mad as Hell is some of its newest role-playing game, is 59 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,960 a collaboration between myself and even Moriarty and a bunch of 60 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:29,280 incredible artists. It is an anti capitalist demon 61 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:36,600 hunting game where basically capitalism creates violence 62 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,400 against marginalized people and the vulnerable in society and 63 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:45,200 that violence creates demons. Those demons then prey on the 64 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:50,120 communities and are always like specific and local and mirrored 65 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:54,240 to a harm dealt against a community or a group in your 66 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,640 local area, which you are a part of or related to in some way. 67 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,960 And then that is something that has to be fought because it's 68 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:08,400 hurting people and it is a, an, an enemy to, to, to people to 69 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,280 the vulnerable. So it's a game about like sort 70 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:17,519 of creating, like protecting your communities and acting 71 00:04:17,519 --> 00:04:20,240 inappropriate ways to sort of fight the effects of capitalism 72 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,520 upon marginalized people and do that in a way that is like 73 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,880 interesting and fantastical and exciting to play. 74 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,760 The games kind of split into a couple of steps. 75 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,560 But like, like I said earlier, the demons are not just like a 76 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:35,960 generic monster that is like goblin. 77 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:42,520 It is a demon of religious bigotry or a demon of property 78 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:47,200 gentrification, or a demon of food deserts or a demon of a 79 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,640 lack of insulation in homes or whatever. 80 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,680 Like all kinds of stuff that is, you know, a product of 81 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,720 capitalism that then created some kind of horrid monster. 82 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,080 Now, you don't just fight those demons by punching them in the 83 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,040 face. You have to work out what they 84 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,360 are a demon of what violence they create to and how they act 85 00:05:06,840 --> 00:05:11,000 and then relate that back to a way of fighting them. 86 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,800 That specifically for those demons I was talking about 87 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:16,800 earlier, the quick start, what is a great example? 88 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,080 It's called the pipe Leech and it's part of the choir of 89 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:25,280 leeches, which are all to do with the negligence of landlords 90 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:30,280 and how those affect working people who are living in in 91 00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:34,680 housing. So the land the the pipe bleach 92 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,200 is about lead piping. So the way you fight the pipe 93 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:42,840 bleach is by, you know, hitting it with pipes that are do not 94 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:44,520 contain leads. You put it through a water 95 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,680 filter, you throw tablets at it. You sort of like have to do this 96 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:53,760 kind of really intricate dance of like theory, like leftist 97 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:55,640 theory about like what this thing relates to and how we 98 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:57,680 would actually solve this if it was a real problem. 99 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,800 And then once you do that, you're going to go out and to 100 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,000 meet, you're going to kill the demon, but the demon's just 101 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,760 going to crawl back it through a portal from hell a few days 102 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,800 later if you don't actually solve the problem that created 103 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:11,960 it. So at that point in kind of act 104 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,280 three of the game, once you've worked out what the demon is and 105 00:06:14,280 --> 00:06:17,480 how to kill it, you have to make sure it doesn't come back by 106 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:22,640 implementing direct action in your community to create the 107 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,480 harm that prevent the harm that created the demon in the 1st 108 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:27,920 place. So for our pipe bleach, that's 109 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,760 going to be, you know, finding safe housing for all of those 110 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,840 people, fixing all the pipes yourselves, getting the landlord 111 00:06:35,840 --> 00:06:38,160 to do it for you by whatever means are necessary. 112 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,200 You know, So effectively what we're trying to create in the 113 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:48,000 game is a a safe, lightly fictionalized environment for 114 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,960 people to learn about what changes they can make in their 115 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,680 local community. Because obviously these demons 116 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,600 are a metaphor, right? And an idea, but the things that 117 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:01,880 create the demons still happen in real life and they need 118 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,040 changing. So the idea for ours is it's 119 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:08,040 about showing people in this safe space that can be, you 120 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,560 know, at least a little bit habit, learning and educational, 121 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:16,640 what tools of direct action look like, you know, and inspire 122 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:21,280 people to work out what they can actually do to improve the state 123 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:27,040 of the world going forward. Yeah, that's that's incredibly 124 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:29,760 powerful messaging in your tabletop RPG. 125 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,640 Yeah. I mean, some of it's always made 126 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:39,200 games about politics, right? But you know, best Left Buried 127 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:44,240 is about workers rights and mental health in the workplace. 128 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,680 Orbital Blues that same stuff, but self-employment Inevitable 129 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,280 is about the environment. Gangs of Titan City is about 130 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,920 crime in a difficult situation in a crushing urban environment. 131 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,960 Painting the town red is about like, my personal relationship 132 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,880 with depression and substances and queerness, right? 133 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:10,960 Whereas this game removes all subtext entirely and just says 134 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,560 the thing it's about, you know? This is about fighting 135 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:20,360 capitalism in a way that is more approachable to a normal person, 136 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:25,640 a person who has be strong left wing feelings or, you know, 137 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,800 sympathies and knows people who are vulnerable and being 138 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,520 affected in these ways but feel powerless to help. 139 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,520 They are mad as hell. They don't know what to do. 140 00:08:34,039 --> 00:08:37,159 And we want to show those people what productive action looks 141 00:08:37,159 --> 00:08:42,600 like through the medium of this game, which is also fun and is 142 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:48,280 also a beautiful piece of art and writing, because that's what 143 00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:50,320 some Muppet games are fundamentally. 144 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:57,560 So we've made a thing that is very obliquely about the thing 145 00:08:57,560 --> 00:09:02,440 it is claiming to be about and are hoping to, you know, show 146 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,640 that to as many people as possible and create a positive 147 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:08,400 change. That's really cool and and by 148 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,960 left wing feelings you mean the ability to experience empathy 149 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:13,840 and recognize? Yeah, of. 150 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:16,360 Course. Yeah, sure. 151 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,040 Leftist, not liberal, you know, which is just being nice under 152 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,240 capitalism for for the liberals out there. 153 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:29,320 So I guess first and foremost like where obviously you said 154 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,400 that Solomapet has always been political and we clearly are not 155 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,040 an apolitical podcast. We're not like like some 156 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:38,720 according to our comments, we're definitely not. 157 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:44,000 But where? Where did the idea for this kind 158 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,600 of like, what was impetus to actually make this specific 159 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:47,720 game? Like where did it come from? 160 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,680 You know, so Mad as Hell was something that me and Evie, who 161 00:09:53,680 --> 00:09:56,400 like wrote the majority of the manuscript. 162 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,640 I'm kind of mostly involved as a in doing production, a bit of 163 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,480 art direction alongside Evie and kind of all the project 164 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:05,840 management stuff. But we came up with a pitch 165 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,440 together and essentially like, we started to understand that, 166 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,520 like, we wanted to make this game about how we were feeling 167 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:18,360 this sort of something that was set in a very modern place, 168 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:19,920 right? Something a place that felt 169 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:24,280 incredibly current because we were having all these feelings 170 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:25,920 and we weren't really sure what to do with them. 171 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,640 And we're both games designers. So when we have really strong 172 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:30,240 feelings, what we do is make a game. 173 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,680 You know, I find personally writing RPG is much easier than 174 00:10:34,680 --> 00:10:37,360 writing poetry. Evie's a much better poet than 175 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,440 me, so they're going to easier time with that. 176 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:48,920 But honestly, there's kind of like the cynical part of like 177 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,720 where the product development came from is that I kind of 178 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,200 identified that we have a couple of fantasy games, we have a 179 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,880 couple of sci-fi games. But like this and Paint the Town 180 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,680 Red are both like very firmly set on Earth, right? 181 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,800 Paint the Town Red being more historical matters, hell being 182 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:13,440 shockingly current right. You are encouraged to play right 183 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:20,320 now like or tomorrow preferably. One of the things that became 184 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,960 very clear to us while designing is that there's this concept 185 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:28,760 known as bleed in RPG playing and writing, which is like the 186 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:34,840 idea that characters sometimes portray the characteristics and 187 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,560 emotions of the people playing them and vice versa, right? 188 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,880 You know, you go through those things and it's generally like 189 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:46,840 understood by the safety community that like, bleed is a 190 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:48,960 really dangerous thing that can happen without. 191 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,040 You're putting a lot of your emotions into this character. 192 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:52,840 This character starts having an impact on you. 193 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,640 And a lot of the advice you get in games is about like 194 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,560 minimizing bleed in terms of safety, right? 195 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:01,280 That's what safety tools came after before. 196 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,240 Obviously we've got loads of those in the game. 197 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,000 We've worked with sensitivity readers because of the list of 198 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,840 stuff this game is about. But one of the things that Evie 199 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,120 was always pushing for during the game, and I sort of agreed 200 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,520 on wholeheartedly once we spoke about it, is that this is a game 201 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:16,880 that's trying to maximize bleed, right? 202 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,520 This is a game where we want you to feel the same rage that your 203 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:25,320 characters do and the same sense of power when that change can 204 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,360 actually be productively made. That's why, like the setting is 205 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:34,200 today, you are meant to play in the city, in the city that the 206 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,280 characters around the table live in, or at least a shared space 207 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:41,200 that you understand, right? And you want to have people you 208 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,880 know appear in the setting, organizations and locations you 209 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,440 understand. Because like that way, The thing 210 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:53,400 is going to feel the most, I think the most, the most potent 211 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:59,800 and act as that like educational, emotional space 212 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:05,560 that we wanted it to occupy. So like we very much want to 213 00:13:05,560 --> 00:13:08,280 came up with the initial idea together, sort of worked on a 214 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,120 prototype, realized what we wanted to do. 215 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:13,720 I say prototype like an initial pitch. 216 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,880 I mean, and then Evie went away and wrote it and then we worked 217 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:19,920 on giving. I worked, the rest of us all 218 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,800 worked on giving feedback and implementation there together. 219 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,800 So it's something that kind of, yeah, formed out of that. 220 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:34,520 Want to make something about how we were feeling about the decade 221 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,960 long at this point slide into chaos politically that I feel 222 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,120 like the West is going under generally. 223 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,200 I think the West is no dramatic, just the entire world, honestly. 224 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,360 And make something about that because we were angry as well. 225 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,680 And that's where kind of we settled on the name. 226 00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:54,800 Midway through. We were looking at lots of other 227 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,160 titles and eventually went mad as hell is really good. 228 00:13:58,520 --> 00:13:59,960 Like that was something we wanted to do. 229 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:02,440 We want to fit hell in there because it's about demons 230 00:14:02,680 --> 00:14:04,280 looking at different things. Yeah. 231 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:09,280 This is a game about leftist rage, you know, about people 232 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:13,160 feeling helpless in their situation and us giving them the 233 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:18,600 tools hopefully to help them find out what they can do in 234 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,600 that situation. You know, one of the things that 235 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,720 we made as part of the project is the Radicals Handbook, which 236 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,560 is alongside the free quick start for this game. 237 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,400 You can grab now on this website. 238 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:37,400 All of our games have free quick Starts is like Azine that is 239 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:44,440 about actually, it's an in world setting scene about like demons 240 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:48,840 and how they work and it's illustrated and commented on by 241 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,160 various sort of characters linked together. 242 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,680 It's got this sort of handwritten homemade vibe. 243 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,840 It's been illustrated by Scrap Princess and it's like 244 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,600 essentially as close to a political manifesto as we're 245 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,680 going to make, while also being something that is a really 246 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,600 helpful onboarding tool for your players that like your 247 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,640 characters or you might find at the start of a campaign. 248 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,960 You know, it gives a load of advice in there. 249 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,160 So it's hopefully like a powerful tool for us to like 250 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,240 tell people about using this game. 251 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,760 Yeah, it's I mean it's incredible and you guys do do 252 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,120 such a good job with that kind of you know that that in world 253 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,120 scene is great. The stuff that all of the in 254 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,320 world stuff you do with with orbital Blues. 255 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,840 But also the quick starts too. I mean just starting it out 256 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,160 there, even this quick start is it is hyperlinked. 257 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,000 So it is really nice to see that I'm throwing it up on the screen 258 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,240 right now for those watching. Definitely want to go snag it 259 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:46,720 and go through it and layout dye sugars. 260 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:51,200 If I if I pick it out correctly, is that who's who's working on 261 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,520 this one? Absolutely, yeah, Yeah, we're 262 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,040 working with Dai on this one, returning, having done a lot of 263 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,080 work on All the Police, Afterburn and Inevitable. 264 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:04,600 I think this is DAI's strongest work yet for so much, but it's 265 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:09,280 really, really good stuff and I'm super happy with how it's 266 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,200 gone. We've worked with like an 267 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,880 incredible collection of artists on this game. 268 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:17,560 I've been lucky enough to work with, like I mentioned Scrap 269 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:19,280 Princess who's done the art for this. 270 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,640 The cover design for the game has been done by a guy called 271 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,280 Alex Eckman Lorne who is a three-dimensional collage 272 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,840 artist. When I initially the me and Evie 273 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,120 kind of Evie spotted him early on I think and we were like oh, 274 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:34,880 I want to work with this guy, there's something here. 275 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:39,680 And I was like, oh, we can make a book with holes in it. 276 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,920 So it is 3 dimensional collage and kind of went into this call 277 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:45,920 with Alex and was like, hey, we want to do this. 278 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,120 You've got these plans for a book going to get you as many 279 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:49,800 layers as we can. Would you be interested? 280 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:51,680 And he was like, you don't have to do that. 281 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:53,120 I'll just make you a normal book color. 282 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,040 And I'm like, no, let me be a sicko, let me do this. 283 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,240 And like that's a space we're always trying to operate in like 284 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,160 summer, but it's always trying to one up itself in terms of 285 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,880 physical production from the previous project, you know, And 286 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:07,520 that's our step towards it this time. 287 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:13,720 This unusual modular book that is also going to have different 288 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:19,800 dye, different dust jackets you can swap out on this multi hold 289 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,920 different layered book, all of which are going to be beautiful 290 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,800 in their own right, but kind of be combined together. 291 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,840 The alternate covers or the main cover will also go on the GM 292 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,640 screen, which is also going to have a hole in it. 293 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,480 You know, like there's going to be there's going to be nonsense. 294 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,040 And then our other artist for the interior of the book is an 295 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:42,080 incredible artist called Janker Sky from Germany has done like 296 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,320 these two incredible opposing styles of art. 297 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,120 The different halves of the book, it's hard to tell this 298 00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:49,080 from the quick start, but we've kind of split the layout into 299 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,080 like the player section, which is where the characters exist, 300 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:54,880 where the players are going to read. 301 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,200 It's about the radicals, right? And it's full of these like 302 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:03,120 repeated friendly characters, these really bright colors, 303 00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:06,040 these sharp shapes. It's kind of comic book esque 304 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:10,680 style, along with a series of like repeated player characters 305 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,640 who we can see throughout the art who are in these series of 306 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,920 connected communities in a city, somewhere in the world. 307 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,680 And then that's contrasted with the second-half of the book, 308 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,080 which is like explicitly enemy territory. 309 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:30,320 This kind of clean, smooth, dehumanized, faceless, brutalist 310 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,760 layout that is like acting in that space. 311 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:36,960 And one of the things that we're always trying to push when we do 312 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:42,760 on these books is that I want the layout to feel like the 313 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,040 genre it's trying to represent. You know? 314 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,360 Thus our books are objects that come with a sense of place. 315 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:53,240 Whether this is like matching the way that we do our 316 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:57,600 commissioning and layout with a particular style of artist and 317 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,200 the feelings we want this section to evoke, or a random 318 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:05,040 bit in the middle of the book on a different paper stop, which is 319 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:10,680 presented as an in world Z with all these sketches on it to, you 320 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:14,400 know, how it's done for all Blues where like a lot of the 321 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,160 art is in world and you feel like you're flipping through an 322 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:21,000 artifact that exists with a sense of time and place specific 323 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,840 to the genre we're aiming for. So like that's the sort of 324 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,960 aesthetic that we're always aiming to aim for, always hoping 325 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,000 to aim kind of pushing always forwards in that direction in 326 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,480 terms of physical production and digital design. 327 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,440 It's, it's crazy how you guys do that successfully, like every 328 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,320 time, you know, because obviously, you know, again, 329 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,560 we've been talking about fans for a long time, but I feel like 330 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,120 every project you guys put out is this next step in production 331 00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:50,600 and stuff. When you look at the Blues and 332 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,160 when you look at Afterburn, it's crazy what you guys did with the 333 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,880 VHS and with even like the new editions of, of, of Orbital 334 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,680 Blues. But again, the, the numerous 335 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,040 dust jackets and not one, but like 2 cutouts in the cover of 336 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,880 the book is crazy. That's going to look so 337 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:07,600 fantastic. I'm really excited to see that 338 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,760 my printer. Hates me, I'm sure. 339 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:12,920 Yeah. She's charging me for it. 340 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,720 So, you know, if we can make it work, it's going to work. 341 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,520 And hopefully that's going to be a nice, it's going to look 342 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,640 fantastic for physical distribution as well. 343 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,480 Yeah. And you know, we talked about 344 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,640 the the kind of like a little bit of the played loop earlier 345 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,680 in in when you were talking about the game where it's not 346 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,320 just about you're not just like going out to punch demons and 347 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:33,760 punch capitalism and things like that. 348 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,280 You know, you have to identify the core root of a demon and not 349 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,000 just defeat it with what you would use to defeat those 350 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,640 problems. But then prevent its return. 351 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,360 But there. But you you are at some point 352 00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:50,600 you're going to punch a demon. And the the core rules of the 353 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,920 game are kind of like the soul Muppet system, right? 354 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:58,680 It's like the roll 2 dice have you know, you know, over 8 355 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,760 etcetera, etcetera. Yeah, so. 356 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,320 We put a lot of work into this. EV did some like really 357 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,240 intelligent design, which kind of sits of in the space at the 358 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,120 solemn engine, but exists in an entirely different place. 359 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,880 A lot of the combat in games like best of Buried or orbital 360 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:21,400 Blues or pins are red. It's, like, meant to be 361 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,160 incredibly zoomed out and cinematic. 362 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:28,840 Whereas, like, the power level in inverted commas of these 363 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,800 radicals is, like, way lower than a specific orbital Blues 364 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,000 character. You know, these aren't always 365 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,080 adventurers or people committed to violence. 366 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,120 They're people that, like, we know, right, Leftists who exist 367 00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:45,200 in spaces, some of which will be familiar with some of the tools 368 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,320 of doing that. But like, an average character 369 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,080 does not start with a gun, right? 370 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,080 Or a sword. You know, you're just a person. 371 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:53,880 Possible in some parts of the world, depending on where you 372 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,720 live. But like, yeah, and the 373 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,240 escalation mechanics in combat there become really interesting 374 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,720 because you kind of enter into this situation, which is just, 375 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,120 which is called violence, right? And one of the really important 376 00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:11,880 hallmarks of the Saw Muppet engine so far is that you're 377 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,800 always doing these stat checks. They're always like 2D6 looking 378 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,760 for an 8 or a nine with advantage, disadvantage, 379 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:18,720 depending on the game that you're playing, the situation 380 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,640 you're in. You've always got these stats 381 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,920 which are usually like related to your your your 382 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:28,160 characteristics like how character looks right and what 383 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,280 how they behave right. Stats are really different in 384 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:32,480 this game. We'll talk about stats in a 385 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:39,840 minute, but in this game in in in matters hell, you can always 386 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:44,840 keep re rolling dice by accepting more distress right So 387 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:46,840 you can keep going. You can keep rolling, keep 388 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:51,720 pushing your luck and sometimes you need to because while these 389 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,680 things that you are fighting, they are like incredibly 390 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,320 dangerous demons. You know there are they are 391 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,920 monstrous creatures from another dimension that hate you and want 392 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:04,960 you to die, right? Because they are the 393 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:09,560 manifestation of capitalism in this like physical specific 394 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:14,760 horrid form. As a result as well, the 395 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:16,920 characters kind of have a really different feel. 396 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:21,920 A lot of the progression in this game is tied to like the 397 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,320 accumulation of the strength of your community over time because 398 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,280 like, each character is a member of two communities. 399 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,120 They're like a really important part categoration. 400 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:33,240 The hair characters know each other. 401 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,960 It's kind of the source of all of the need for this stuff to 402 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:37,680 occur. You're related to people who 403 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,880 care, you have empathy for people around you and you're 404 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,800 sort of like working with these communities to draw on them for 405 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:50,160 like resources, contacts, information, equipment, right? 406 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:55,280 And you gain that. And once you you draw a 407 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,720 community's cohesion to get these resources, which you're 408 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,120 going to need to do, that resource stays for the rest of 409 00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:04,080 the campaign and like you can call back to it in the future. 410 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,000 You now have that resource. So like character progression 411 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:12,040 isn't based on how sad you are or how many mental breakdowns 412 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,720 you've had recently. You know, it's or how much money 413 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,200 you've got. It's specifically tied to like 414 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,880 what you have done in your community and how you've been 415 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,840 able to help them and how they've been able to help you. 416 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,760 So it creates this like real meshing consistent of 417 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,720 solidarity. You also get these magical items 418 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,680 called totems by killing demons. Each character starts with one 419 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,360 of them. They're tied to a specific stat. 420 00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:36,760 We'll talk about stats in a minute. 421 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,400 And they sort of allow you to do a small magical thing. 422 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,960 They're sort of imbued with the power of a given community 423 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,040 that's managed to defeat or kill a demon. 424 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:48,400 But. Yeah. 425 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,680 And the stats, instead of being like brown wit and well and best 426 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,200 left buried or savagery, allure, duplicity. 427 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,560 What you have is this like the verbs by which these characters 428 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,640 interact with the communities around them and with capitalism. 429 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,680 You start with solidarity, which is your ability to like, talk to 430 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,680 people, interact with communities and draw strength 431 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,560 from those around you. You then step to conspiracy, 432 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:19,760 which is seeing in secret lies, sneaking around, breaking lots, 433 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,000 doing all that stuff. And then there is militancy, 434 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,920 which is fucking throwing a petrol bomb at someone you know. 435 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,120 And that is the the steps upon which these characters are 436 00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:32,920 going. And like, obviously militancy in 437 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,320 particular is more nuanced than just armed revolution. 438 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,240 But like, those are the verbs by which we give your characters to 439 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,760 interact with the world, which is way more interesting to me 440 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,240 than, like, strength, friendship and sneaky, right? 441 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,720 You know, Right. We've specifically labeled them 442 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:54,160 to concepts and behaviors within leftist movements. 443 00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:57,320 Yeah. And. 444 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,360 And Coheed. And like the community aspect of 445 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:03,240 it is such a obviously the core aspect of the game. 446 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,040 You talked about getting totems with community and things like 447 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,000 that, but cohesion is a really interesting part of the quick 448 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,440 start that I was like digging into. 449 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,800 So what exactly is like cohesion with the communities and how is 450 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,280 that kind of going to affect the the gameplay as well? 451 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,240 Yeah. So the cohesion is like a 452 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,240 measure of the strength of your community in a given situation. 453 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,080 It starts off kind of related to the number of player characters, 454 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,480 the rim of each community, each character kind of makes one 455 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,680 themselves. And then you go around the table 456 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,320 and be like, oh, I want to join that community. 457 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:37,920 Oh, I want to join that community, I want to join that 458 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,680 community. So you get this like legitas of 459 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,440 explanations why all these characters know each other, 460 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,120 because they're always going to have a community shared of at 461 00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:45,640 least one other person in the party. 462 00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:50,000 You're kind of drawing on the cohesion of the community to 463 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,600 create and manifest these resources. 464 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,480 Or, you know, it might be, oh, I'm trying to solve this problem 465 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:03,520 to do with science. Maybe this agricultural 466 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:09,600 allotment in town is going to help me solve this problem to do 467 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,320 with a plant sample or something related to a demon of a certain 468 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,880 type. Or you could be like, oh, this 469 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,000 hat space that one of my characters is a member of is 470 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,320 going to have a laser cutter and a load of aerosol spray cameras 471 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,440 which are going to help us make these protest signs, right? 472 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,640 You know, and you can keep like drawing on communities in those 473 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,040 ways to create those resources and those people which then like 474 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,080 stick around or something for the entire campaign. 475 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:34,960 And there are aspects you can always call back to. 476 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,880 You can reuse those laser cutters and aerosol scans at a 477 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,520 future point if you at some point need to make something 478 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,800 different or use those spray paints to make improvised, you 479 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,600 know, flame torches or whatever. Like all kinds of stuff you can 480 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,720 use and utilize that equipment for. 481 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:59,680 But cohesion is like at risk from the activity of demons and 482 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:04,360 also people as you are playing, if like someone in your 483 00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:09,080 community is killed or there is some sort of violence or a 484 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:14,120 threat made against them by demons or indeed like mortal 485 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,400 agents of capitalism, which do exist within this game very 486 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,240 explicitly. And then the main issue 487 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:25,000 obviously, and in real life, you're going to lose cohesion 488 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:26,480 there. You're going to gain cohesion by 489 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,320 like fighting these demons, closing rooms in the world, 490 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,400 killing demons and like removing some of these more complicated, 491 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,920 you know, relationships that these, they're like making 492 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,440 removing the glare of these agents of capitalism from the 493 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,840 communities that you're in. So you can effectively like 494 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,240 you're trying to always like gain cohesion over time as you 495 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,360 deal with like an increasingly more severe and complicated 496 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,840 selection of demons. Because as your characters are 497 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,840 levelling up, we've kind of got lots of options in the full 498 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,120 book, which you're not going to see in the quick start, which 499 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,400 are going to be like different demons working together or like 500 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,120 choirs of demons. I mentioned like the choir of 501 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,320 leeches earlier, which is like a collection of landlord demons. 502 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,400 We've made suggestions of like some of the other leeches 503 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,720 available. There's Dukes, which are really 504 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,920 powerful demons, which have other demons pay fealty to them. 505 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,920 And there's lots of sort of like other options in there for like 506 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:26,640 campaign progression as you play. 507 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,400 That kind of can make things more complicated and kind of 508 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,240 create an art for a longer campaign in a given city. 509 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,120 This is so great. You really, you really grabbed 510 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,480 me and Ryan when you got to landlord demons. 511 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,240 I think you know it's. One of my favorite things about 512 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,760 this entire thing is like the complete and total like lack of 513 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:55,880 subtlety that but still has a like nuance and and like it. 514 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,240 It still looks good. It still plays well, but like 515 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:03,120 the the demon of like landlord leeches is like the least subtle 516 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,640 thing possible, even though like it's really great and fits into 517 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,680 the game because like everyone is going to know exactly what 518 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,000 you're talking about all the time as soon as you like. 519 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,280 So many of these problems are things that every everybody face 520 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,400 on a regular basis. So to just be like, oh, it's 521 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:17,960 this thing, but it's a demon. People are going to be like, 522 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,280 yes, I 1000% understand exactly what you're talking about and 523 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,120 that's great, I think. One of the most interesting 524 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,920 things about talking to people is that like when you kind of 525 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,560 like explain what matters, how idea of a demon is and like how 526 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,320 it might impact and sort of the way the gameplay loop of the 527 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,640 work is. Like every single person I've 528 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,000 spoken to about this game like decides they are a games 529 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,440 designer and start riffing on different type of demons that 530 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,440 could exist, right? Because it's such an appropriate 531 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,360 concept. And like these things which are 532 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,360 these violence is created by capitalism are literally legion. 533 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,600 There is an infinite number of horrid things that kind of occur 534 00:30:55,600 --> 00:31:00,720 as a result of, you know, the violences of the state and the 535 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:06,800 oligarchs that exist within this, this current economic, 536 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,920 socio political economic system that we dwell in. 537 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:15,160 And Evie is like the mastermind behind a lot of this stuff. 538 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,720 I'm kind of just standing next to them and smiling while they 539 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:26,560 come up with increasingly interesting and maniacal ways of 540 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:31,640 like expanding this metaphor we've made until what we're 541 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,320 coming out with is like a really beautiful piece of art that is 542 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,880 also going to like hopefully have a meaningful social impact 543 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,040 upon spaces that we're in in the world around us. 544 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:46,240 So I'm very proud and very happy to see how that is is 545 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,720 developing. And, you know, I think it's one 546 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,360 of the things as a yeah, as an, as a, as a publisher and a 547 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,520 person who like works with lots of creatives, it's such a 548 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,000 pleasure to just surround myself with all of these incredible and 549 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,640 talented people and be able to give them just so much money, 550 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,880 you know, in exchange for like making this thing happen that 551 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,200 isn't going to generate excitement. 552 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,120 People that play the games because like I'm just, I'm so 553 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:16,480 looking forward to like when this game in its majesty lands 554 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,320 upon the table in its full form. I already, I think this is like 555 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,760 probably our most played quick start as far as I can tell. 556 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,440 Like people seem really excited about it. 557 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,040 There's a couple of actual plays going on at the moment, some of 558 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,280 which we've sponsored, but some of which have kind of just 559 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,400 sprung up really naturally. So I'm really excited to see how 560 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,400 that's going to go. But yeah, once we start getting 561 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,720 more material into these, into people's hands, like, I think 562 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,760 there's some real wonder in this, in this game. 563 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,000 Yeah. I mean, like I said. 564 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,720 It's so approachable to everybody because like there's 565 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,560 people that are like, I don't really like space or I don't 566 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,000 really like dungeon crawling, but like everyone goes, yeah, I 567 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,520 paid too much fucking rent. And like there's this thing 568 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,160 that's like broken that no one's fixing or like, you know, every 569 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,080 single person has difficulties that they're going to face. 570 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,760 So I think this is going to hit, you know, there's there's nobody 571 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,800 there's nobody that can read this book and not relate to to 572 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,280 some aspect of the the issues that your face on a regular 573 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,160 basis and and how they can feel like demons And in this game, 574 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,280 you can actually fight them just like you should try to fight 575 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,600 them in real life. But you said the quick start is 576 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,040 a obviously it's a quick start. There's things that are missing 577 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:28,880 from the game. One question I had is the 578 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,240 characterization of the quick start is like you choose 579 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,440 characters from a list. Is that going to be the same in 580 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,960 the book or is there going to be more of like a make your own so? 581 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,360 The game contains like a full series of catch creation. 582 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,200 You'll be choosing stats, you'll be making your own communities, 583 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,200 you'll be like going around. There's a bunch of random tables 584 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,640 for those. One of my favorite things in the 585 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,120 catch creation is this thing which we call the vibes table, 586 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:54,760 which is just like AD 100 table of like one line descriptions of 587 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:59,160 weird leftists that you like will be on that list and you'll 588 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,440 be able to pick out people you know in that list as well. 589 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:10,239 It's been written with like sort of real piercing interest and 590 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:16,239 like understanding of like the, you know, leftist marginalized 591 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:21,280 queer communities and kind of looking at how those people can 592 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,239 behave and kind of looking at that space as well. 593 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,600 But yes, there's full calibration in there. 594 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:30,360 There's a much bigger selection of totems as well, stuff on 595 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,040 making your own communities. And then the back half of the 596 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:38,560 book contains 12 demons and there's another 12 coming in the 597 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:44,639 first the expansion scene we're doing that's called the Field 598 00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:49,920 Guide to Hell on Earth. And that is kind of just like 599 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,280 another selection of demons from a bunch of guest writers. 600 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,880 And we've tried to hire writers. We can have different 601 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:56,679 perspectives that are going to try to write different types of 602 00:34:56,679 --> 00:35:00,480 demons. Those have been like really 603 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,000 exciting to approve the pitches for. 604 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,560 I'm hoping to like be able to show off some of those soon as 605 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,880 we start like getting further into the writing phase. 606 00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:10,120 The other thing that's in the book is a load of GM's advice 607 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,960 about how to run these longer campaigns and sort of a way of 608 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,760 expanding and networking these best series together to make 609 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,160 longer sessions. And also this thing that Evie 610 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,280 has written called the Struggle Framework, which we're really 611 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,920 happy with. Essentially, we kind of hit this 612 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,240 challenge when we started writing adventure content for 613 00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:33,720 this game that like, because we want every session to be set and 614 00:35:33,720 --> 00:35:38,200 every campaign to be set in like the time, the city you live in 615 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,000 right now, right? So I'd be playing in Nottingham, 616 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,800 UK, but you'd be doing it in whatever city it is. 617 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,120 We can't write an adventure that fits every city in the world. 618 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:52,920 So what we've kind of written is this kind of set of like 619 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,040 archetypal characters that are going to exist in sort of any 620 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,840 given city that you can met. And then like locations that you 621 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,880 can mesh together with those characters and put them against 622 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,480 different communities. And then sort of walk you 623 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,840 through like different steps in the three act structure of a 624 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,840 traditional adventure. Like how that might look to help 625 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,280 people weave it together. Essentially, like it's a toolbox 626 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,600 or a framework for running sessions and by extension 627 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,640 campaigns with like this cast of repeating characters and sort of 628 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,200 working out that kind of got a list of allies and adversaries, 629 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:33,160 you know, mostly mortal ones obviously, and then looking at 630 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:35,920 kind of how to weave that campaign together. 631 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:41,320 So that's like a big percentage of the book because it's kind of 632 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,200 a bit of a, that was a bit of an unsolved challenge for us. 633 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,400 Like I think that was the one of the most difficult parts of the 634 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,840 game's design because the bulk of the game and the theory came 635 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,920 together pretty quickly. But working out how to actually 636 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,600 write an adventure that's easy for someone to run, that could 637 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,080 be set in any time in any place with any group of people was 638 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,560 like much more challenging. But I feel like we've landed 639 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,520 down hopefully something that will be really easy for people 640 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,120 to use once the game is out and full. 641 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,080 Do you like the? Framework of that within the 642 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,720 initial quick start, yeah, do. You like foresee ever doing any 643 00:37:15,720 --> 00:37:19,840 like game jams for Mad as Hell I. 644 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,080 Think that would be a fantastic opportunity to do some game jams 645 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:27,360 like because I think adventures for Paint the Town Red, for 646 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,960 example, like a standard Paint the Town Red adventures like 647 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,040 5000 words long, which is like something really serious to 648 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,720 commit to and like. But I think that a matter's held 649 00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:40,240 even is like 500 words. So there will unquestionably be 650 00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:43,440 a game jam that will be running for when this comes out and like 651 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,200 hopefully be able to put a load of those creatures together. 652 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,640 I'd be really excited to do something like that. 653 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,000 I think this is a really game jammable game. 654 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:52,840 I very much. Agree, it'll be really 655 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:54,440 interesting local. Spaces. 656 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:56,840 Yeah, it'll be really. Interesting to see like as 657 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,640 people make their own kind of take on these adventures, like 658 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,800 kind of like locally to where they are, what the issues are 659 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,960 that they see and that they choose to tackle. 660 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,520 And I'd be really interested to see with other, because I live 661 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,200 in a city in Oregon that just cut a bunch of funding to a 662 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:15,680 bunch of social programs. And so I immediately already 663 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,160 know what maybe the first two or three adventures I would run 664 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:20,840 would be. But I'd be really interested to 665 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,320 see what somebody on the other side of the world who's also 666 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,120 dealing with the downfall of capitalism sees. 667 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,200 Is there like initial jumping off point? 668 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:34,000 One of the play tests that we ran was kind of bore a bunch of 669 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,080 the Soul Muppet staff, so I'd already read all the demons. 670 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,560 So Evie came up with a new demon based on something that was in 671 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,960 the news recently in Nottingham, where there was this proposed 672 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,920 plan that the council in the city we were living in were 673 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,280 going to do. Where when it was night time, 674 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,400 they were going to try to save money by only lighting areas 675 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,200 that were critical paths and making sure that all of these 676 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,480 side streets that didn't need to be lighter because they did the 677 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,800 data and no one was walking on them apparently. 678 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,040 And obviously like, how could that? 679 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,040 What type of areas do you think they'd pick for when they 680 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,960 decided which lights they were going to turn off healthy ones? 681 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,040 What exactly you know it's going to be there. 682 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:20,640 So and that then created a demon that was like about a demon of 683 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,440 it's kind of like this long limits spider thing that was 684 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,720 like stealing and blinding people that existed in the dark. 685 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:35,080 And it was sort of a tall lamppost wrapping predatory kind 686 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,560 of drop spider kind of thing. And like that was related to 687 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,360 like something very real and meaningful, which happened in a 688 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,520 local community that Evie was involved in. 689 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:48,280 And thankfully people got together and said, no, you can't 690 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:49,760 do that. That's insane. 691 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:54,600 And managed to lobby the council not to turn the lights off. 692 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:59,080 So managed to get that sorted. But that led to like, a really 693 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,200 interesting impact of like, oh, yeah, this is something that 694 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,280 happened in real life, is going to keep happening. 695 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,480 Because, you know, even though there wasn't a demon that would 696 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,440 eat people, it makes people scared to go outside their homes 697 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,440 at night. It creates risks of slipping in 698 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,920 the ice in the winter. You know, there's lots of like, 699 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,280 correlating issues. And that turns into a demon. 700 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,880 Again, the the approachability of this is insane. 701 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,560 Like every, everyone in the world has problems and, and 702 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:31,040 being able to make those demons and figuring out how to fight 703 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:36,560 them and as you said, like as a community, how to keep them away 704 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,680 is, is incredible. And, and I, everyone in the 705 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,240 chat, everyone, all of us here, like as soon as you started 706 00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:44,320 saying stuff, I give up like 10 things in my town where I'm 707 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,200 like, that's exactly the first one that I'd fucking run. 708 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,360 So like, it's really great to hear that you put in a framework 709 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,560 to make it a lot easier for people to, to make the things 710 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,640 that they want to make that affect them the way that it 711 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:56,200 affects them. Because as you said, like the 712 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,520 issues that I'm dealing with in my town are going to be 713 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:00,520 completely different than ours, which is completely different 714 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:01,640 than what you guys are doing over the UK. 715 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,280 So it's, it's, it's really incredible to make that such a, 716 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,600 a core aspect of it is the, the approachability for anyone 717 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,880 across the world. So one of the things we've done 718 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,280 there as well to kind of help out, it's that obviously the 719 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,440 book has advice for making demons in it. 720 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:22,280 But we're working now with Elliott Davis on a stretch goal 721 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,440 for the game, which is this thing called Biscard, which is 722 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:33,400 very explicitly a like a solo game, which is what like point 723 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,720 is. But when we make solo games at 724 00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:38,400 Soul Market, I always try to make sure that like this isn't 725 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:40,920 just a solo game you're going to play if you can't get a group 726 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,680 together right or you fancy playing a solo games. 727 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,960 It also has like trap elements that we can build into it. 728 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,040 So it's useful as part of the larger campaign. 729 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,600 For example, the paper town read solo game morning. 730 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,480 After that, we're hoping to release in the next week or two. 731 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:04,600 Is is like about building a city and kind of like helping you do 732 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,880 that with all of these like prompts and card drawing and 733 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:11,080 building those things together. Whereas what we're doing for the 734 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:16,080 start is that specifically it's about helping people make more 735 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,720 demons. So what will hopefully happen as 736 00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:21,600 a part of that game jam is we won't just be like, I'll make a 737 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,280 demon writer here. It's going to come with like 738 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,440 maybe even like a solo game playthrough that you do 739 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,560 beforehand, which is going to help inform your writing. 740 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,560 And that's going to be based on like, look at the news and see 741 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:33,840 what's happening in your local area. 742 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,440 What are people angry about? You know, that's like a very 743 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:41,480 easy first step of that, you know so you're always wanting to 744 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:46,320 like push that approachability. Obviously, as with all things 745 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,480 salt Muppet makes this is going to be held under the same 746 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:53,600 license. So you are free to make demons 747 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,000 of your own and post them on each to IO and charge money for 748 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:01,840 them if you want. Because I want always other 749 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:06,440 people to be able to contribute to an overall artistic community 750 00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:09,720 and there to be more material than I have the time or energy 751 00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:13,560 to write or Evie does as well and kind of to supplement and 752 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:15,440 foster that kind of third party space. 753 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,160 Yeah, there'll be a game jam. It will be about demons in the 754 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,240 local space. So who knows what it'll be 755 00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:23,680 about, but we'll be, we'll be supporting this game for as long 756 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:25,840 as we can in as many weird ways as we know how to. 757 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:28,800 It's crazy. That the company that is putting 758 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,040 a game out about like building community to fight demons also 759 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,040 wants like build a community within like the the artistic 760 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,080 space of the game. So no, that's crazy. 761 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,200 Absolutely so. The. 762 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:44,320 Kickstarter, what people can actually get for when they go 763 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:48,000 back this project because you guys still, I mean, it just kind 764 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,320 of recently dropped. There's still 17 days to go on 765 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,080 this, so there's plenty of time for people to go grab it. 766 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,480 But what can people grab when when they go back this project? 767 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,200 So the core pledge that we're pushing people towards is like 768 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,640 the core book with the dust jacket. 769 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,120 It's got everything in it. You're going to need to play PDF 770 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,000 and physicals available. There's also a couple of add on 771 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,080 bits we have because we've hit the stretch goal. 772 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:20,520 Everyone who bats or at all will receive APDF of the solar game 773 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,440 repaint. And then there is also going to 774 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,120 be a physical add on for that. There is AGM screen which is 775 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,320 going to be able to be adaptable with the various covers. 776 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:32,560 It's going to have a slot where the mouth of the base comes over 777 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:33,640 it. That's probably quite badly 778 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,400 worded. We've got this thing called the 779 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:40,120 Field Guide to Hell on Earth, which is a selection of 12 more 780 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:41,920 demons. Well that you can use to double 781 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:43,080 the amount of demons in the call book. 782 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:50,200 And we've also prepared, if people are interested, A this 783 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:52,560 which is the Zine edition of the Radicals Handbook. 784 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,360 So you can hand it to your players right now. 785 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,560 This is going to be presented inside the Matters Hell core 786 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,080 rulebook as like a dividing section on a different paper 787 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:07,120 stock. So where that's just something 788 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,720 the printer said they can do. And you know who's going to stop 789 00:45:09,720 --> 00:45:11,840 being God? You know, she wouldn't bet. 790 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,080 So we're going to have a weird book in the middle of our book. 791 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,120 But if you want a second book, we can make that happen as well. 792 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:22,600 And there's more stretch calls coming. 793 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,080 We're hoping to do some more demons. 794 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,760 There's a couple of patches you can get as well, in case you 795 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:28,800 have a battle jacket that needs to say Mad as Hell on it. 796 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,680 And there's all kinds of future shenanigans as well. 797 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:34,760 We're always working on more stuff here. 798 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,360 As someone HQ. By that I mean my house that. 799 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,480 Was going to be my next question is there's obviously a lot going 800 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,600 on right now with this project, including all of the extras that 801 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,040 you just said. Is there already an eye on like 802 00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,080 what's going to come next with Madison? 803 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:52,920 Because I know you said you wanted to support this game for 804 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,800 a long time. Is there a plan for like an 805 00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:57,600 official release sometime in the future? 806 00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:59,640 I know you always got a million ideas cooking. 807 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,160 Well, obviously all this stuff will come out in physical at 808 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:06,920 some point, hopefully before the end of the year. 809 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,120 But like, I think it's much too early to be considering like 810 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,120 what the awkward Blues afterburn of this game looks like. 811 00:46:13,240 --> 00:46:15,040 You know, we still won't even finish the first ground funding 812 00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,400 project yet. And I think like often with this 813 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,440 stuff, I let my own ambitions get away with me. 814 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,560 But that'll be out hopefully at some point towards the end of 815 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:23,800 the year. The PDF is going to be ready 816 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:25,080 soon. You know, we're hope. 817 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,600 I'm hopefully looking out before the end of the summer and we 818 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:29,920 send it off to print and hopefully get some books to back 819 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,400 us as soon as we can. But like, that's the priority 820 00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,440 right now, like finishing off this wane of stuff, working out 821 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,520 what we can do in a way that it doesn't massively negatively 822 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,680 affect all of the timelines you've already set up, and then 823 00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:45,680 move on to the next thing and the next steps. 824 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:49,160 Because obviously we've got books, we've got a crowdfunding 825 00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,000 project every six months until I drop dead. 826 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:53,600 You know, we're a new, not necessarily covering project, an 827 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,080 exciting new product release every six months until I drop 828 00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,000 dead. So yeah, there you go. 829 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:04,400 So. This we're going to get paint 830 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,320 the red soon. Paint the town red soon. 831 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:07,280 We're going to get this, you said. 832 00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:09,160 Hopefully physically by the end of the year because. 833 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:11,440 You could by the end of the year is a hope. 834 00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:13,280 Yeah, that's. That's great. 835 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,680 I will be very happy to get a book with like this many holes 836 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,560 in it by the end of the year, which would be fantastic. 837 00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:24,920 And I know that if you go to the Kickstarter page, obviously 838 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:26,800 you're here on the weekly score right now, but there's a lot of 839 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,920 other stuff going on My first dungeon who are incredible. 840 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,200 I know you've chatted with a bunch of them, the One Shot 841 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:36,120 podcast, like there are a lot of things going on outside of just 842 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,680 our conversation with Zach for people to check out. 843 00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,400 So if you want more information, most going on to see people 844 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:43,120 actually playing the game, make sure you go to the Kickstarter 845 00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,560 page and check out the links to all of those at the bottom. 846 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:48,600 So you can see the game actually being played and and have, you 847 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,840 know, hear different conversations about about this 848 00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,720 game, which is going to be up there as like one of my favorite 849 00:47:55,240 --> 00:47:58,120 projects in the works right now from Soma, But which is saying a 850 00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:00,560 lot because you know my edge Lord ass loves best left buried. 851 00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:04,560 But this one seems incredible. So really excited to see what's 852 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:09,000 going on with that. So this is mad as hell again, 17 853 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:10,640 days left to go back. You should definitely go snag 854 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:11,720 that. All the links will be exactly 855 00:48:11,720 --> 00:48:13,720 what you think all the links are going to be for all of that. 856 00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,320 But Zach, is there anything else you want to say right here at 857 00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,360 the end about Madisel or to encourage people to go snag it 858 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,800 I. Think we've hit all the big 859 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:24,720 notes? Help us make some kick ass off 860 00:48:24,720 --> 00:48:27,560 about how much we hate capitalism and sorry for 861 00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:29,840 charging money for it. I guess we live in a society. 862 00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,040 I want to make sure all the artists get paid. 863 00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,640 Here's a free version of the Radicals Handbook and of the 864 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:37,400 Quick Start that you can grab right now. 865 00:48:37,720 --> 00:48:39,960 They will do you for more than a couple sessions at play. 866 00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:41,320 Should be able to have a lot of fun with that. 867 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,360 And if making demons is as easy as it sounds like from this 868 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,760 conversation we've had, you might be able to spread it out 869 00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,280 for even longer than we've given you credit for and say, yeah, 870 00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,560 absolutely. Zach, always a pleasure. 871 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,640 Please come on for every six months, every time you guys put 872 00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,280 out a project, we'd love to have you back on and and talk to you 873 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,240 some more. But this has been great. 874 00:49:01,240 --> 00:49:02,600 And again, super excited for this project. 875 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:06,400 It sounds incredible. We'll be back in September, 876 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:08,760 October, hopefully. I've got, I've got Dark Souls 877 00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:11,040 cooking. It's called Spiral. 878 00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,400 My birthday's in. October, so we'll just call it a 879 00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,080 birthday present for me. There you go. 880 00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,520 Perfect, perfect. Seriously, thank you so much for 881 00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:21,040 coming on. It's always, it's always a 882 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:22,280 pleasure. So I really appreciate it and 883 00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,080 thank you everyone that was here in chatting for one. 884 00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:25,880 Discussing. Yeah, absolutely. 885 00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,640 And we will see. All of you later, bye.