Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll Podcast.
My name is Ryan. And I'm our Kiss the Eagle
merchant extraordinaire. And with us today, we have a
very special guest that is Gabriel Caroga.
How are you doing today, Gabriel?
Hello, guys. Ryan Hander, thank you for
having me. It's a pleasure.
It's, it's, it's great to have you on.
I mean, we're, we're big fans of your work.
Yeah, absolutely. And for for those of you that
for, for those out there listening that might not know
your work as well as we do, who, who, who the heck are you?
What might people know you for in in this space here?
I am an artist and game designer.
Also I try to be a writer, I created neurocity war plan, Hell
night, just finished the black rainbow society and campaigning
for Lords of death an illusion with gallant Knights games.
Does he know how to do anything besides make games?
I think he's got like like 3-4 hundred games at this point.
It's crazy. Alan Barr's like output.
It's it's insane. It's very prolific.
Yeah. And as so I, I, I have to say
that Alan is a, a great force in the, in the industry, in the
independent industry. And he helped me very much in my
early days finding a printer and help me with all the doubts I
had. So he's super recommendable.
Everyone checks out his stuff. Yeah, I awesome.
One thing that I I love about of Ellen and Gallant Knight games
too is the amount of stuff that he not only does for just like
his stuff, but the number of projects he's doing with like
other people. A lot of times like.
And we'll get a little bit more into Lord of Death Illusion and
your guys's connection with with Gallant Knight and that.
But some of the things that you've talked about, some of the
things we've talked about in the show, some of your past work
before we get there, One of which, as I said before, I'm
holding in my hand, this is the new version of Warp Land Hunter
for those in podcast land is holding the old version and
Neurocity. I, I ran into Warp Land first
before I ran into Neurocity. And this is the first time that
we encountered your work and, and talked about here on the
show. I was trying to scroll back and
find actually what episode that we did that on, because that was
quite a while ago. You can get it for very cheap in
drive through RPG. Oh, with the poster.
Nice. Yeah, you can get it.
Yeah, I love, as we were saying before the show started, the the
cover of the new I I guess it was like the European version.
That's stunning, depending on one of the best fantasy
illustrators ever. That's a fantastic poster, but I
will say that we did War Plans on episode 7.
No, yeah, it's not that long ago.
It was episode 7, which means it was, well, like the third or
fourth episode I was on the show.
Which episode? 2 years ago?
No. On which episode are we?
180. Wow.
And that doesn't include all of our.
That doesn't include all of like the, the APS and everything like
that. Actual, actual number of
episodes we've done. I think it'll be like 232.
So we. Did Hell Nights on episode 111
which is a great number. Yeah, great, great number.
You know, also very prolific then.
No. Well, we, we talk a lot.
Doesn't mean doesn't mean people listen to us, but we talk a lot
for sure. So so we also require a lot of
work to do this. Yeah, yeah, We could do a little
bit more, make it a little nicer.
But you know, we, we people get what we get.
Yeah, but yeah, but we're playing fantastic, fantastic
game we talked about on the show.
And then as we said before, we talked about Help Night on the
show, Neurocity, Warplane, Hell Night.
They all use roughly like the same core system.
But I know that with Hell Night, when you know, because we've
been talking for a while, especially once Hell Night was
coming out, that Hell Knight is a thing that you're kind of like
really latching onto and expanding more and expanding the
universe. Because on top of that, you also
have like Sigil the card game. I should go grab those as well.
Black Rainbow Society is an expansion for Hell Knight, if
I'm not completely mistaken. So I guess talk to me a little
bit about or talk to us a little bit about like the, I guess the
system first, since you use it kind of through Neurocity
Warplane and Hell Knight. What drew you to specifically
like the mechanics that you choose to do in that?
Yeah, it's a 2D6 role under the stat system.
I think that I wanted something that was easy, intuitive, and
that allowed for complications both in successes and failures.
That's something that's very important to me.
It also allows for criticals in everything you do, so you can
have a critical in a social endeavor.
I really like that. And also like that when you
attack, there is a damage that escalates with how successful
the attack was. And that's something very
appealing for me because it makes the combat much faster.
Right. And those are the premises and,
and Helen, for me is that more condensed version of the war
plan system. It's the most obvious version of
the system. Yeah, I mean, like I said, we we
were fans of war play when it came out, especially the book,
because, my gosh, you're as an artist, you are fantastic.
And the work that you put in these books is insane.
Yeah. But, but it's not, it's not my,
it's not my responsibility. It's the responsibility of the
artist I choose to use. I want to collage.
I also hire artists to do their own stuff.
For me, the aesthetics is the main thing.
Before embarking on a project, I work with aesthetics first and
with the concept. Which it's a great it's a great
way to do it in a in a in AI. Don't know how if you feel about
this in a kind of an adjacent way.
A lot of your work really reminds me a lot of what like
Andre Games Omnivorous does, where there's like always this
very specific focus on like the artistry of the project as much
as like the gamification, everything like that.
And it's one thing that like I really love about your work and
theirs and it gives me like it reminisces a little bit based on
that, whether the focus is really to kind of be a little
bit more art house and have more of a focus on, like you said,
the aesthetics of it, not just like a mechanical aspect of it.
Yes, absolutely. I try to embark on it from the
visual aspects and I also when I write, I choose like a playlist
that is specifically designed for that project.
So I try to, it's all like like a mixture of everything, no
music, visuals and then my writing.
And I have found that most people don't read that much.
So I try to intermingle all the everything together with the
visuals and the writing and everything is 1 like one whole
work. Very.
Everything points towards the same concept and it's like a
hammer pointing the same thing. Yeah, if it is science fantasy
or acid fantasy in the case of war plan, or if it is Dune,
Biker metal in the case of Hell Night, or dystopian technoire in
the case of neurosity. You do a really great job of
reinforcing that vibe through all aspects of it.
I I do especially like listening to the music that comes along
with the game that really like reinforces, like the the war
plan now I'm thinking of specifically, but that does
really help to push that. I think the idea is that you can
have the book lying on the on the session and the players can
just scoop over it and they will get what the setting is about
without having to read it maybe. So it's like it has like 2
layers. You can just admire the visual
aspect of it and then just delve into it with the writing and the
Lord, which which tries to be not overly complex but at least
interesting or original. I try to develop something that
at least for me has not been done before or or add something
different to it. So one of the things you said
was that Hell Night is kind of like a more focused version of
the mechanics. And I think all like when I look
at like you're kind of like all the work that you've done.
Neural city is fantastic. War playing is fantastic.
But to me, and maybe this is this just an outside
perspective, but Hell Knight feels like the like everything
just coming together perfectly. Like simplify the system a
little bit artistically. It went even above and beyond.
The OST from Hi Matt is absolutely fantastic.
The the soundtrack for it. It's like this experience and
for for us on the show, I mean, we do quantify our shitty
opinions with like actual numbers.
And hell, Knight is like one of the top, I think two highest
scores we've ever given for a game here on the show.
It was an incredible like, yeah, I mean, well deserved.
Yeah, the experience of reading. It was.
Thank you for taking the time to delve into it.
No, it always requires time, and time is not in abundance.
Yeah, yeah, that's true. I.
Really appreciate that. And I think that I I need to
consider that when I make a book because people are going to pay
it and then they are going to invest some time reading it or
appreciating it. So for me it's like a huge
responsibility. Well, you know, part of the part
of you know, what comes into our scores is because we don't just
do like game reviews. It's not just system reviews.
It's like a product review as well.
So it's like how the art looks, how it's laid out, like how
readable is it, all those kind of things.
So one of the things that was so great about Hell Night for us
specifically, I mean, as part of what you talked about is that
like you have this really good focus on like making sure that
the art reinforces the theme. There's never too much, You're
never going to read just like a pure page of like block text
because it's just too much. And when you throw in the, the
collage art, the, the, the streamline mechanics, the the
soundtrack and everything, it's like an experience to read Hell
Night differently than some other books that that we've had
to go through that feel more, you know, kind of like reading
essays or something where like sometimes you need a slog
through a little bit like going through hell night, reading it,
flipping the page, seeing the next piece of art, like seeing
some like fucked up thing that you wrote and like us, like
laughing about it. Like was we're going through it
on the show. It was, it was a really fun game
to go over. And I'm really excited that you
have expanded on that world. So first, first was the the card
game that you put out. And next was the Black Rainbow
Society, which is funded and in the process of of happening now.
So tell me a little bit about like why you decided to kind of
latch on the Hell Night and expand that universe a little
bit more with your work. I think it's just something that
I wanted to do. I always go with where my heart
is. I think that I am pretty sure
that there will be a war plan expansion as well by end of the
year. Also with Bruce Pennington's art
about 3 or 4 words from him. But regarding highlight, I
really wanted to a card game such as the mirror Reality that
besides being besides being a great game, I'm also a Magic the
Gathering fan. But I am a bit discouraged by
the current trend of it. I wanted to develop something
different, so the card game actually is like a platform that
helps emphasize other aspects of that same setting.
And in the same way, the Black Rainbow Society works like a
spin off of the setting because you can interpret other
characters dealing with other problems.
In the case of the Black Rainbow Society, it's like an article
terrorist group that stumbles upon a psychotic drug that
awakens their third eye. So they start seeing demons and
otherworldly entities. It's a bit inspired in Scanners
the movie and also in They Live. So it's like a mash of those two
movies, I think, with a very, very 80s oriented, of course.
I this such a random side thought, but like I'm not a big
fan of like remakes and stuff, but I would definitely if
someone could remake scanners in like a good way.
I want that movie redone with like just slightly better
graphics, make the heads explode a little bit nicer.
And that's such an incredible movie.
But like anyone that's going like, oh, I was inspired by
scanners. Like I'm like, great, I'll read
it just like give it to me. That's fine.
With Michael, I don't, yeah. Yeah.
So what's a lot of your work pulls from the 80s?
You know, like obviously Hell Night is like an 80s doom metal
biker kind of thing. Like what?
Like why 80s doom metal? Like what kind of besides the
fact that it's fucking awesome? Like what kind of pulled you
like in that direction? I think that it it, it comes
from my childhood from renting VHS tapes.
I have like a green light from my, my folks to just go to the
store and rent whatever I wanted.
So I basically went every couple of days and rented like 5 tapes
or whatever I wanted. Hell raise it or spread the
crude or whatever. And it like made me, it made me
who I am right now. So I am a bit fascinated or
obsessed about that whole decade in particular.
But I'm also a 90s guy. I like the 90s as well as well.
I like the 70s, yeah, but the 80s, at least for this setting,
this is where where it is also war from.
I think that fields are very 80s, but from more trash Gordon.
Maybe something like that or more Conan?
That's right. Yeah, definitely a little bit of
Hyperborea kind of like tucked in there and then.
In the case in the case of neurosity it it it feeds a bit
more from old like Godard the French movies.
That's why it's in black and white.
Alfavel was a great inspiration behind that.
And also that that movie from from Lucas from George Lucas 11.
I can remember the name of the 1st movie that George Lucas did
that. Was this a sci-fi movie?
What THX he didn't something THX 11.
Oh THX 1138 yes. That that's a great movie.
I super recommend everyone to watch the movie.
It's an amazing movie. Honestly don't think I've ever
seen it. I know I've heard it, but I
don't think I've ever seen it. Yeah, you can see the genius
behind George Lucas in that movie, OK, It's so little.
He does so much. Did he go back and remake 20
versions of it with CGI that kept getting worse or no?
No, but, but so that so hell Knight, 80s zoom metal, all
those kind of things. I'm, I'm super excited for Black
Rainbow society. I know I just showed the stream,
but I I love hell Knight. It's fantastic.
All of your work is gorgeous. The cover though, for black
rainbow society goes so hard. A lot of your work that you do
in Hell Knight and, and everything I know you said you,
you, you, you know, a lot of amazing artists and work that
goes into it. But maybe I'm tell me if I'm
completely wrong on this, but most of Hellnite was done
physically by hand and then scanned into the computer,
right? Yes, it was done by an artist
called Thomas Spicoli. And he's like a very old school
skater, a graffiti artist, and he does all these collage works
and he uses photocopy machines and scans.
And yes, everything's super analog in the case of Hellnite.
In the case of Black Rainbow, I took that that style and I did
my own thing with my collage. So Black Rainbow is the only
work that was mostly exclusively done by me.
Gotcha. Awesome.
And it's such a visually distinct style.
It came out so well. Yeah, yeah, it works like.
It works like I wanted to like a like a visual trip or like like
like it was like a movie or, or trying to replicate what's the
psychoelic trip of the characters for Black Rainbow.
So the first half of the book will work a bit like that,
giving you small pieces of what the setting is about, characters
speaking, monsters speaking, demons speaking, some poetry,
some slices of truth within the setting.
I think that it's important to ignite that creativity in the
reader as well. So the so the players make the
setting their own version of the setting.
Because I understand that a role-playing games is like a
collaborative storytelling effort between the writer and
the and the reader and the player.
Yeah, I mean, you really do understand that.
I mean, it's, it's what's funny when we first started going
through Hell Night, I don't, I don't know if it was you or me,
but we're like 80s. We'll see.
And then we get to it and it's like, no, we mean Black Sabbath.
We don't mean like WASP. Like there's a little bit of a
difference here. And it, it was so fun to go over
and, and, and the vibes, as we said before, like with art
weather shows or somebody else's, there's a lot.
Of Lost Boys. Also the movie Lost Boys in
Black. Yeah, oh, got.
That for sure. Yeah, for sure.
And then beyond your password, going to your current record
now, we talked about a little bit at the top of the show with
Gallant, with Y'all Knight, with Ellen Barr, You're putting out
Lords of Death and Illusion. I was lucky enough to get to to
get a peek of this a little while ago.
I'm very excited to see it out on Backward Kit.
It's already funded, but obviously if you're listening to
this, go fund it. I'll make sure that we get this
episode out before the four days are up.
But tell us a little bit about Lords of Death and Illusion.
It's going to be a small 30 page fencing beautifully illustrated.
I'm I'm sure you have the well it's all full of artwork.
Every every page has something like.
I think it fits the style of most of my books.
But in this case this is AGM less competitive role-playing
game, so it does not need a director DM.
So my idea was to create our a game which I could play when I
had AGM or DM burnout. So.
I could still play with with that.
I, I, I wanted to provide a mechanic that, that work that
could create a story, but at the same time was easy a system that
fade away behind the story. And I think that it works.
We are still using it. We use it last last week.
And people want to play it. It's really lots of fun and it's
very unpredictable and nobody knows what's going, what's going
to happen in the end, how it's going to end.
It's very open. Sounds awesome.
And it's and it's very, it's very adjustable to to other
settings. So in the case of Lord of the An
Illusion, it comes with a mudboard or troika or helmet or
war plan specific mechanics. So you can fit the game into
that setting and you can use it to create as a as a backup plan
behind the campaign. So what makes it so like chaotic
like you said that you know it's GM less but like you never know
what's going to happen. Like what about the game, the
mechanics and like what you put into it makes it where it's so
like reusable and and chaotic so you don't know what happens at
the end. Well, you take turns to to
interpret the warlock because it's this is a, a game about
Wizards of warlocks fighting each other.
So you take turns to interpret that warlock and create the
story of what you're going to do against all of them.
And then the mechanics provide you, you roll the dice and the
rest of the of the players need to find out if you're what
you're saying is bullshit or is actually happening.
And that depends on the dice which is hidden.
So they need to decide whether it is an illusion or or a
bullshit or it is truth. And based on that things will
fire up. It's a very simple idea, but it
works and it helps the the storytelling a lot.
Yeah, yeah, that sounds awesome. No, like I said, you sent it to
me quite a while ago to to go over and at the time I was like,
hey, it looks amazing, just like all of your all of your work.
It's fantastic. But the game itself is so fun
going through like the tables and things that you have written
in it. If if anyone's on the fence
about by like backing this just to fucking do it, it's on top of
the fact that everything that that Gabriel does, it's amazing.
Like this is really really really fun, especially to have
just like a a small scene to jump into.
I think it's only $15. Yeah, the PDF is also very
cheap, so it's. Yeah, I think PDF was five.
I was like, yeah, I I backed at the $15.
I'm backing for the the book, you know, $15.
I'm getting the Zine. I also, I love the name Lord of
Lords of Death and Illusion. Amazing title, really fantastic.
Yeah, thank you. And yeah, and, and the whole art
work is done because I'm the, the version I showed you, Ryan
was made with me doing collage art, but Alan Barra from Gallant
Knight wanted to use Simone Tamita artwork.
So this book will be strictly with all Simone Tamita's artwork
and with all my layout as well. Yeah, it's he has an awesome
style. Yeah, yeah, I, I, I'm excited
for it and it is system neutral, but like there are mechanics
for, for, like you said, a couple of other games.
Why did you pick Troika Merkborg?
Well obviously Hell Night Warp Land are yours, but watch Big
Troika and Merkborg specifically for for this as well.
I, I love those games. I love the premise behind those
settings. I think they are very colorful
settings and they are very different from all the rest.
So I wanted to produce like a kaleidoscope of options which
you can play and use for those settings, but you can pretty
much adjust it to your favorite setting.
I mean, you can play Mothership if you like with this, with this
game. Yeah, well, yeah, I always
forget you have a like a Cthulhu dark mothership hack too, that I
want to go over at some point. That's really, really fun,
Hunter. I don't.
Know if you've seen it, it's. Dark I.
Haven't seen that. Yeah, it's, it's Fox.
It's really good. I like it.
Yeah. There is also an alien hack,
also an alien dark hack, which is also quite using that same
system, but the system is inspired by Graham Walmsley,
Tulu Katulu Dark, would you say? An amazing book.
Amazing book. An amazing book.
Yeah, really great. I mean, I'm a I'm a huge trophy
dark fan and that uses a lot of Cthulhu Dark as well.
So Cthulhu Dark is definitely something we we choose to do
that at some point, but maybe, maybe we'll get to it in creepy
season again. But so you're doing the project
I love, I love Trophy Dark also. It's very.
Very good, such a good game. Trophy dark is.
One of my favorite games period. But you're doing this project
with Alan Barr from Gallant Knight.
So you said when you first started getting into it, Alan
was really was there for you. How did the, I guess, how did
the relationship with you and him kind of start and like how
did it get to this point now where you're doing this project
with him on back cricket? Well, at the beginnings I
connected with him, it was more or a cry of help from my part
because I was a newcomer and I have trouble with my original
printer. I had some trouble so he
recommended me his own printer that they were very
professional. So he really helped me out
finding the right printer for my work.
I'm very satisfied with these guys, with the quality of the
books they make. So yeah, he was, he has been
really helpful. He's actually really helpful
with every creator. So he's a really a really good
force of a force of good in the industry.
Yeah, yeah, I mean Alex T from Black Oath, I know does a lot of
a lot of work with him and and and then he's a good friend of
ours too. We got we we should just talk to
Alan at some point. I remember.
So I love a lot of Alan's stuff. I have a lot of Gallant Knight
stuff. I have that blue box is actually
although, but gosh, she has this one and it's I don't know why
it's like one of my favorite ones because it's just so funny
when you look at all the stuff that that Allen and Galenite has
done, you see, like the Baywatch RPG basically, and that one
always cracks me up so hard. We'll have to do that one in the
summer. But but the the spread of of
games that he does styles systems and and on top of that,
help the amount of people that you'll see a project like all
that's really cool. There's like, oh, gallon Knights
working on it too, or Gallon Knights doing this part of it or
that. It's really awesome to see them
putting so much work and effort into into the industry.
And as far as what what Gallant Knight is doing for Lords of
Death and Illusion, was he like doing like project management or
like what what? What exactly is his role in in
this project? He's he's doing the Barker Kid
campaign, They are doing the Barker Kid campaign and they are
doing the distribution of the game.
They also were the he's the one that hired the the artist as
well. Gotcha.
Very cool. And if I ever start making
stuff, I got to find somebody that will just like, I not find
somebody, pay somebody that will just do all of that stuff for
me. Because having people in the
industry that have that kind of knowledge has got to be like 1/2
production. Also, I forgot to mention
production. Yeah.
Which is very important because yeah, it's AI.
Think that right in the game it's only like 10% of the work.
Yeah, it does seem like, you know, through our hundreds of
episodes and talking to people, it seems like, yeah, the the
actual production and distribution of the game is such
a massive and running the backer kid, their Kickstarter, such a
massive portion of it, a lot of it has to be handled fairly
delicately as well. And you know, it seems like a
lot. Can burn you out.
Yeah, I'm, I'm very impressed with anyone who puts out any
amount of projects, even a single one so.
Yeah, that's why it's so great that he manages to do so much.
Yeah. Must be incredibly, but he's
incredibly focused and disciplined.
What's that like? Yeah, it must be nice.
So, so Lords in Death Illusion, it's got four days left on it.
It's going to be coming out relatively quickly.
Is this a Zine that is being like printed and distributed or
is this coming through drive through RPG?
Like, how is that actually getting into people's hands?
It's going to be printed offset printed.
Gotcha, nice. And then you said there's only
like 37 pages. So it's it's Zine style, right?
We're not hitting perfect bound or anything.
Probably will be 30 pages and there is a a stretch goal that
they it will include cards. One card for the illusion and
the other card for the depth that that's what the players
need to choose. These are the two cards, so this
is the decision you have to make against the Storyteller of that
turn. Yeah, I am.
Gosh, I'm so excited, not only just for this game, but like
every time I look at any things you do, I'm like, man, we should
just start like a hell night game, dude.
Like that's, that's what we should be doing right now.
I'll play a hell night. Game dude, I would play a Hell
Night game in a heartbeat. Beyond Lords of Death Illusion,
though, I have you, I know you sent it to me and I know the
page is up for like possibly like the next project.
Is that something that you are talking about like the the the
thing that's up on Kickstarter now or are you waiting to talk
about that a little bit? Regarding what?
Right. Sorry I lost you.
Your next project that's out on Kickstarter, I don't want to say
the name of it unless yes. Hell World, Hell World, Hell
World Earth is a setting that was created by Patrick Austin
Duribash and he's an amazing illustrator.
He's like a mixed between I am Miller and Warhammer 40,000.
He's a really amazing artist. I found his work and I
immediately, immediately approached him to create the
game based on that setting and on his artwork and his
character. He made about 80 characters, 80
illustrate illustrations already.
He's a really, really amazing emerging artist.
Really stoked about creating. This is going to be a war game
with with 2D cardboard figures. Oh.
Yeah, let me show you the photo vibes.
Yeah. Yeah, something like this.
Oh nice. Awesome.
Holy shit. Really, really something I think
that is I'm really happy about showing this because I, I want
to, I want to concentrate on traditional artists and this guy
works with, with ink in the very style and everyone, everyone's
doing their 3D printing minis for war games.
So I wanted something exactly the opposite, different.
Yeah, yeah, I sorry for those in podcast land.
You didn't get to see the the the the little 2D, the little 2D
minis go what? What?
Watch on YouTube and then you can see the preview.
But but that's great. Listen, I've I've like I've
liked skirmish games for a long time.
We're forbidden some fans here on the show, obviously, but I've
been getting deeper into into like skirmish games and war
games, and I just don't have the fucking space for all the minis.
You know, like I really love when games have either like
little meatballs or especially like just the the cardboard
pieces exactly because you can have 1000 of those in a stack
this big versus 1000 and need a whole room for them.
So it's really nice to have that.
And I can only imagine like cost, cost wise, cost efficiency
wise is going to be a lot easier to, to produce those than it
would be to like try to get some type of mini produced on top of
easier to buy. Absolutely, much easier and you
can fit everything in just a box and you you have 3 factions.
Amazing factions. So yeah, the game is going to be
incredible. Very brutal.
The setting has is very well written by him, so I'm stoked
about presenting it. It's really something else very
different, very a focus on ultra violence and it's incredible
because Patrick is such a gentle guy and such a mild and kind guy
makes this is like, it's incredible.
I'm very different with what I'm used to doing.
Because it's a, because it's a war game, or because the setting
sounds like something you can do?
Because it's a war, because it's a war game and because it's also
like a post apocalyptic futuristic mayhem thing.
And sometimes it's it's when when when stuff is all is too
oriented towards violence or or brutality.
Maybe you you can get misguided and think there is no content or
substance behind it, but in this case it has something else.
No, there is like a statement behind it.
So cool, I really think. So, so as far as the actual
setting itself, you're saying this is like like like are there
any like movie or book touchstones that you're talking
about? Because you're saying it's like,
is it like future post dystopian apocalypse or?
It's so far away in the future. It's like a people merge with
shrooms and with demons and factions emerge from that, from
all that chaotic. It's like the third after the
Third World War. And the only sense in that
carnage is fighting each other because they want to do that.
And humanity is just plays only a small role in in there.
They are like, they are like trying to survive in that
setting where everything is fucked up.
Well, listen, if you could describe my perfect game, I
think you just might have done it.
So I'm definitely excited for this one.
Like if you like God, my, my dumb little edge Lord Hart is so
stupid. But I just, I love this stuff
and I'm I'm really excited. And obviously if you're working
on the project, I mean there's going to be like a we've talked
about over and over again, like you don't have ask anything.
You, you double ass everything, everything that you do is
there's a soundtrack and there's this hand on art, this focus on
traditional art like you said, with the ink and stuff like
that. We are.
We are already working on a death metal album for it, so
there's going to be a death metal album collaboration with.
And that's exactly my point. You're like, Oh no, we already
have an album going for it too. Like that's fantastic.
I mean, the amount of work and, and, and attention to the vibes
that you put into your work is one of the reasons that we love
your work so much. And not only seeing like again,
the new version of Warplane, which I'm excited to see
potentially an expansion for Warplane coming out and these
two projects on top of it. Are you like, like how busy are
you right now? You got like 3 projects going
right now, are you? But are you just like humming
along? Is it just like this is where
you want to be like having this much work going on at one time?
Like, how does it, how does it feel to be kind of like this
deep in, in so many different things?
I think it feels very chaotic. This is pretty much the only
thing I do. It works.
I managed to live from it from the for the last three years.
I think that what I tried to do, as I said, I tried to do what
inspires me and what drives me. So that's also a problem because
projects sometimes stuck up. So I need to try to be as
organized as possible and make like a queue of of projects.
Also, it helps me a lot to stretch for collaborations like
like in the case for, for lots of evolution.
It helps me out to do that. So I'm looking forward to do
that in order to finish the projects in a more orderly
manner. So that's what what I'm aiming
to do. But I'm super happy with it.
I'm doing what makes me happy, what, what I love doing.
And I'm pretty happy with, with how it ends up looking so far.
So I, I, for me, it's like they are my little children.
Every book is like a little children.
They I have no preferences. Yeah, I mean, like you said,
like they're all fantastic. And I mean, but I will say hell
night, hell night for me. I love all your.
Work with hell night dude it. Just it it, it just hums so
well, like it just takes everything to 11 with everything
that you've done. Like, I don't know, I just feel
like everything else is like fantastic, but something for me
about the way that all aspects of that game kind of like land
out at the exact same spot just like hits.
The first time I read it, I was like blown away.
And Hunter was like, we'll, we'll do some like 80 stuff,
whatever. And then we both read it And
when we both like I remember point, we look at each other and
go, oh, like this, this is a game.
Like this is a really, this is a game, you know?
I'm not the biggest 80s guy, but I think that, I mean, I think
hell might just it was, it worked so well and it was so
like, it's just a game. You read that you're just like,
OK, well, we need to play this like we have to play this, you
know? Well, it's, I think it's a, it's
a very easy game to jump into because also there's such an
amount of well, music, movies or whatever that just nailed the
concept. So it is quite easy to grasp it.
I think. I don't think there is something
similar or as similar that for me the most similarity game is
cult maybe, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I love cult too,
so. Yeah, like a modern horror.
I think that it has that splatter punk.
Yeah, yeah. Gosh, it's good.
And then you said so. So you said there may be well,
like next year, we're talking about like a warp land
expansion. Is that something that's like
even? Is that just a thought or is
there some work being put into that already?
No, no. And it's pretty, pretty much
written. It's really written that
expansion. So I just need to have the time
to lay it out. I have some artwork.
I have like a whole. I have two new regions that
yeah, I'm very stoked because the characters are going to be
amazing. It's really, it's really going
to add a lot of dimensionality to the setting.
So is that is that the focus of the the project is supplemented
just like kind of expands the world itself and then all the
things that fill that in? Yes, expanding the world itself
and bringing more lore into it and maybe some rules tweaking,
but I don't like to deal with mechanics so much.
It for me, it's the hassle to write about mechanics.
I'm not very good at it. And maybe that's why I was not
as good. I think that I had, I was very
lucky with Helen because I, I consulted a few colleagues, so
they helped me develop it as as good as I could.
But I don't like writing about mechanics.
I I just like writing about the setting and the world and
creating all the aesthetic, but and the concept.
And I really do a lot of digging and research and investigate.
Which other settings try to touch what what I'm aiming at?
Well, for example, I, I'm I'm a very big fan of mothership.
I would love to do mothership and I maybe, but the problem is
that mothership is already done. So I wouldn't be able to do it
to add something different to it.
It will take me a lot of work to do it.
I have an idea to do something in space already dude.
I would. Love.
I would love a mother ship adventure or mother ship module
written by you. I think that would be so
awesome. I would love to see that.
But hopefully someday, maybe. Yeah, I'll, I'll watch out and
hope for it because I would absolutely back that.
I would be super stoked on it it.
It will probably, it will probably be like because New
York City award and I are tied up from Italy.
Which is great. I love it so good.
Yeah. So and so we what what I what I
will do for space, it will probably continue that.
Cool, yes. Yes.
Yeah. So we'll definitely continue
that, yeah. So then I guess my question
then, because you said you're, because I'm, I'm a big mechanics
guy. I love mechanics.
I love reading other people's like lore and stuff like that
come up on my own. But like, I really like that's
what gets me going is like, you know, D6 probabilities and stuff
like that. But if you're if you're like,
I'm not really a big mechanics guy, why do you keep making
games like that's, I guess that's my question.
Like you keep, I guess the system kind of again, like
carries through a lot of the games.
But have you like, have you written a bunch of just like
adventures for other games or anything like that?
Or do you have any plans for that?
Or do you keep planning to like just build these worlds with
your system and expanding to be able to build the lore for that?
I think that at the moment I'm planning to develop, develop the
world's, the existing worlds I have and also, yeah, maybe
expand them with another spin off from those worlds.
I have a post apocalyptic world already that is going to be a
continuation of neurosity that's going to be called Meltdown and
and then well, the one in space is going to be called Starlight.
So there are all settings that are very connected with with the
previous one. It's like a four story arc,
mainly about that setting. I also love systems and
mechanics. I I love creating them and I
love reading about them. I just don't like writing them.
I gotcha, yeah. And that's why, and that's why
we get worlds of Karaga, right? Like these are your worlds.
Like this is, especially since so many of them are going to be
set in the same universe basically.
It's a fancy, a fancy name for the, for what I do.
But again, I call the words of kilo.
But I, I really emphasize that to me those words are, are, are
a collaborative effort between me and the players.
So which table each session, they will create their own
versions of those worlds. So that's why I, I am very
conscious about leaving a lot of space for them to, to play with
it and, and, and, and not their own feel and their own thoughts
about the way things should be in that world.
I think that for, for me, that idea came from, well, I used to
study literature and that idea came from Raymond Carver, who's
a great short fiction writer. And he always, like, developed a
style in which you are. He lived a lot of space for
imagination. You know that you can fill the
gaps of the plot yourself. And it creates an enriching
experience. And that's what I want.
That's what I do with my work. Yeah, I mean, you do and you do
it very, very well. Like it's and again, I mean, I'm
just going to keep I'm just going to keep like glazing
helmet right now. But like, you know, especially
when reading that book, like there's not like the amount of
things where like you, you give this seed or you have this like
list or whatever. And the way that when listening
to the music and going through the book and seeing the art, the
way that your mind just like blows up for the possibilities
that come from like this, like 5 lines you wrote in it.
It's crazy. You know, when we were going
through, I just remember like going through combinations of
like some of the lists and some of the character stuff and just
imagining like entire campaign spinning off of like these tiny
little things that you put in and and it's it's.
Yes, I love plot seeds. I I love, I love tables.
I love random plot generators. I love that.
For me, it's about that. Not about making a whole
adventure, but about igniting that creative fire in the
reader. For me, it's about that.
That's what I love about reading other people's book.
Yeah, yeah. I mean same, same for us.
That's why we've done it 100. And 80 times or whatever we're
doing, yeah, yeah. So.
I know this is such like a random side tangent that I could
have talked about forever ago, but the forbidden book of
tangible realities? That little red book that came
with war planned? Honestly, I have to say it's one
of my favorite things ever. I wish more games like came with
that because it's basically like it's basically a quick start for
the rules, but also for like the lore.
Like it's a really easy flip through.
And if you don't want to have like the entire thing at your
table, like having that little book right there, it makes it so
easy to to to. Like a statement for the for the
system, Yes, but it also was like a bit.
It has some songs that it does not have the main book.
It has some riddles, some small Easter eggs.
Yeah. Are we, are we going to see any
more forbidden books of tangible reality for any of the other
things, or is that just a warplane kind of thing?
If the production costs allow it because it it's really becoming
really expensive. I mean, since I started, the
prices keep going up and I need to make sure that it does not
get prohibitively expensive for people because I know that
everyone's on a tight budget and buying a lot of books like
yourself. So everyone's like, cluttered
with books. So I need to make sure that what
I do it's a good balance between quality and price, Yeah.
Very fair, yeah. It's also a challenge.
If it were up to me, I would fit it with a with little books and
posters and lots of stuff, but I rather concentrate on this.
Is just capitalism limiting art again you?
Know yeah which. Come on.
Yeah, but at the same time a community back in your project
directly. So I cannot complain that this
is. Fair.
But I mean, even even within the context of how like exactly what
you're talking about, like it came with a poster and it came
with a little GM screen. And when you go, when you flip
to the back of the book, there's like what, like 8 or 10 spreads
that are just like pure art from like all these fantastic
artists. Like you still find a way to,
to, to put that into, into all of your things, which is like as
a consumer of games, it, it's great to see and, and great to
see every time you put something out.
We managed, we managed to include that Johann know the
artwork in Black Rainbow, so I'm very happy about it.
It's a great piece. It's the last page of the book.
I love that piece. I saw that piece.
I said this, I want this piece for Black Rainbow, so we managed
to do it. That's awesome and and because I
know I remember the the there's a blue and red spread in Hell
Night too, which is Johann in near the back of the book as
well. Of a dragon.
A dragon. Yeah, the dragon play a
interesting part in Hellen because it's like on the origins
of hell. They were the original dwellers
of hell until the demons came and they expelled the Dragons.
And Black Rainbow is going to expand a bit on that because
some of those Dragons ended up on on Earth.
Yeah, and. People.
Yeah, and then take acid and then we'll see what happens.
Right yeah, with with the hell Dragons.
Yeah, I mean, again, like, I don't know, like it's it's I'm
never going to get over how much for me specifically.
Like your work speaks to the the things that I enjoy, like the
it's kind of like dark with a, with a edge of yeah, like a
little bit of humor to it. And, and the even the way that
the poster and collage artwork, I mean, it's you have such a
distinct style and it's one that speaks directly to me.
And it's the reason that I'm going to be a fan of yours for
as long as you're. Making stuff, you're going to
make me cry now. Yeah, I I agree.
That headlight in particular was the one that I tried to develop
my sense of humor in that after neurosity, which is like bomb
chilling for me. It's horrifying.
I I get goosebumps when when I think of neurosity.
It's like my nightmare to become true.
Yeah, it's like a very big opposite from that.
Yeah, but again, still still finding a way to make it all fit
together in into into your work and make it all seem like
there's a through line through all of it, which is really
fantastic to see. So gosh, I think I think we kind
of hit just about everything is there.
So Lords of Death Illusion, just in case anybody is on the fence
about backing it, do me a favor and say like one last pitch for
those people that like, if someone is thinking about
backing Lords of a Death Illusion, like why should they?
What, what if they want to play AGM, less easy going game with a
very flexible system. And I mean, my play testers, I,
I have a like a little club in my house every Friday when
people come over and most of them, half of them at least they
are not from the role-playing game community.
So they just jump here and they yeah, it's really we had a
success with people coming over and so they we play test, we
play tested the game with a lot of non RPG people and it works.
They they keep coming. So I absolutely recommend it if
you are a burnout GM as well and I.
Am getting a little burnt out actually so.
Most of the half of them are all.
I burned out years ago and that's why I haven't run
anything in like 2 years. But but yeah, but hey, Gabriel
Lord's death illusion is on back cricket right now.
I'm going to make sure that the links are down below in all of
where it's the Internet, people know where they are.
But for people that are looking for your older projects or for
everything we talked about today, Neurocity, Warp Land,
Hell Night, where can people find all of those things that
they're looking for them right now?
Well, they can. They can if they are old school
like me and they still use Facebook, which is unlikely,
they can join my Facebook group, Worlds of Kiroga, or if not,
they can find my page, my official page,
www.gabrielkiroga.com. That's our WordPress.
And they can also add me at my Instagram.
That's also a really Kiroga, Yeah.
I don't think. I'm not sure if Neurocity is
still in print, but I'm pretty sure Hell Knight and Warp Land
are both currently available for printing Exalted Funeral as
well, right? They can find neurocity in
exalted funeral as well. All my nice in exalted funeral,
yes. Cool.
Nice. Awesome, I just got to say it's
been too long. We've been chatting for a while.
Finally got a chance to actually have you come on the show and
it's been fantastic to talk to you.
So I just want to say we really appreciate you being here and
and us letting us, you know, pick your brain and everything
for for, for these games that we've enjoyed.
I really appreciate also you doing guys this.
I think that's very important for the community, the work you
do. So thank you for having me.
Hopefully we can do it again sometime.
Thank you, We definitely should, especially after next couple
things come out. We'd love to have you back.
Yeah, absolutely. All right.
All right, So that's us for today.
So again, Gabriel, thank you so much and we will talk to all of
you later. Bye.