1 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,120 Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll podcast. 2 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,040 My Name Is Ryan. And I'm a giant cicada with the 3 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,000 face of an old man. And I'm what? 4 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,800 And today obviously we are talking about cloud. 5 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:28,760 Empress, what has been on the show before. 6 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:30,840 It's great to have you back. Thank you so much. 7 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:33,160 Great to be back, Yeah. Yeah. 8 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:38,360 So Cloud Empress, it's in people's hands now. 9 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,640 How does that feel? It's it's really exciting. 10 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,600 I didn't fully realize how much stuff was going to be packed 11 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,520 together. Obviously I made mock ups and I 12 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,520 committed to doing certain things, but I I hand assembled 13 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:56,480 most of the games or all of them. 14 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:58,640 So putting them together and kind of making this little 15 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,840 bundle it it it felt really exciting and and just to see it 16 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,080 all sort of spread out on the table and in people's social 17 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:06,680 media posts and all that kind of stuff is has been really 18 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:10,000 exciting and gratifying and just kind of a dream to come true, 19 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,200 yeah. Yeah, the project turned out. 20 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:15,760 I mean, really incredibly impressive. 21 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,680 I mean, it's like, it is like a really good amount. 22 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:25,440 Like I'm still pulling stuff of stuff and it looks beautiful. 23 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,880 I mean it. It really is very beautiful. 24 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:29,720 Thank you. Yeah. 25 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,920 The original sort of concepts for the first Kickstarter, as I 26 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:38,280 was envisioning it, was really trying to outdo myself on the 27 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,200 first campaign at least. And really it's hard to say that 28 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:46,000 you have an expansive world without having an expansive 29 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,280 product, at least at 1st. And so this was sort of it. 30 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,040 I felt like I had to go big with the first Kickstarter campaign 31 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:55,760 in the first set of materials because I wanted to evoke a 32 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:59,960 larger setting, not just sort of a set of locations, but but an 33 00:01:59,960 --> 00:02:04,520 entire world in a single crowdfunding campaign, which 34 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,440 which certainly was a challenge. But I think the multiple 35 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,639 materials and the hex crawl and and just sort of the allusions 36 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,240 to other larger world elements I think made me at least feel 37 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,560 successful in that regard. Yeah, I I I think absolutely. 38 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,040 It was done fantastically and we, you know, we kind of just 39 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,960 jumped in here. For those listening who might 40 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,600 not know, would you mind telling us what Cloud Empress is? 41 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:32,720 Sure. So Cloud Empress is a ecological 42 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:37,840 science fantasy RPG setting for Mothership 1 E the science 43 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:43,640 fiction horror RPG. And it's heavily inspired by 44 00:02:43,640 --> 00:02:47,480 some of the the key touch points and genre touch points are 45 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,840 Nausicaa in the Valley of the Wind by Hayao Miyazaki, Full 46 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:55,240 Metal Alchemist, and Dune. So those are sort of the three 47 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,840 largest influences, although there's quite a few others in 48 00:02:57,840 --> 00:02:59,640 there as well. But those are sort of the touch 49 00:02:59,640 --> 00:03:03,120 points in some of the genre tropes I tried to pull on to 50 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,200 ground players in in some kind of reality that they would 51 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,360 understand. So it's it's far, far, far from 52 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,680 in the future of our, you know, our society or even maybe where 53 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:17,000 mothership is at. But it also carries these sort 54 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:21,720 of ecological overtones and and really ideally like a 55 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,200 thoughtfulness around the ecosystems at play in this in 56 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,920 this space. And really trying to ground the 57 00:03:27,920 --> 00:03:31,440 players in a world that doesn't necessarily really care about 58 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,400 them. And they're sort of sort of 59 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,840 surviving and adventuring and moving through a world that has 60 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,240 its own rules that aren't necessarily governed by, I guess 61 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,360 I should say they're governed by giant magical cicadas. 62 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:47,200 So that's the other sort of big draw where Gnostica has the sort 63 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:51,480 of giant ohm and Dune has the sand worms I tried to draw on 64 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,320 some of my Midwestern heritage and and the 17 years cicadas 65 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,560 that we experience and and different cicadas, broods. 66 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,120 And so these are some giant cicadas with these sort of 67 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:07,880 unnerving stone human faces on their Chitan armor, which are 68 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:09,280 kind of a mystery in the setting. 69 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:15,320 And also a little creepy, yeah? Just a little bit. 70 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:19,720 Just a little bit, yeah. And then kind of speaking about 71 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:21,959 the bundle, because I forgot already, we're doing a giveaway 72 00:04:21,959 --> 00:04:25,080 tonight. So what was kind enough to send 73 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:30,160 us an entire extra deluxe bundle edition and that includes all 74 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,240 the bits and pieces which we would talk about this a little 75 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,760 bit more on stream. But like the the elevation of 76 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:41,080 like the whole set with like the art cards, the bingo card, the 77 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,240 the player handouts to kind of do the GM screen and even this 78 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,320 like the thank you card is just such a nice touch. 79 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:52,200 That was wonderful. But we'll be giving away one of 80 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,280 these entire things to somebody in chat. 81 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,640 So let me actually turn that on. Good luck. 82 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:06,320 Yeah, Good luck, Ozo. There you go. 83 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,640 And all you have to do is hit exclamation point cloud to be 84 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,120 interred if you're a sub. I fixed it this time so you'll 85 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,120 actually get two or you should, I hope entries and then we'll 86 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:21,680 draw it at the end. I was going to say continental 87 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:26,120 United States only but we'll see about the cost of shipping, but 88 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:27,040 we'll kind of take it from there. 89 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:32,560 So feel free to hit exclamation point cloud and then we'll we'll 90 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,440 keep going here. So I think we talked about this 91 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,560 before and stream like for this episode to really kind of like 92 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,800 do like a how the sausage is made episode as far as like you 93 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,120 know Cloud Empress when it started to hear. 94 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,240 So I guess my first question is, well, I guess this is like the 95 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,720 fifth one by now. When when did you actually start 96 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:55,840 working on Cloud Empress? It was like a setting as as a 97 00:05:55,840 --> 00:05:57,040 world that you want to do separate. 98 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,800 Because I know you've put out mothership like other mothership 99 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:02,720 stuff. But when did you say, all right, 100 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,160 I want to make my own thing and then start going from there. 101 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:15,720 The original gestation of Cloud Empress started right around 102 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,320 midpoint of my last crowdfunding campaign, Hot Stuff on Shore 103 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:25,280 Leave, which is a shore leave module that's meant to be played 104 00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:27,560 by players sort of away from their group. 105 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:32,160 In in a mothership campaign where you sort of explore hot 106 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,680 stuff and hookups on this polluted island that has these 107 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:40,880 beautiful sunsets that are all from the the hot sauce burning 108 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,000 people's eyes and the and the the sky. 109 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:51,720 But the concept came from this idea of making a World War 2 110 00:06:51,720 --> 00:07:01,880 inspired mothership setting. I think for me, World War 2 111 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:08,840 weaponry is fairly culturally evocative, but I think it also 112 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,280 engages in this area of play that I think is particularly 113 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,640 interesting where you can express the brutality of war and 114 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:23,440 of gun violence, but it's not. There's still some gamification 115 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,120 that can happen and and some actual play that can happen. 116 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:30,520 Whereas I I think for me personally modern weaponry is is 117 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,680 just so powerful and horrible that it it and I know you all 118 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,680 have strong opinions on guns in in role-playing games right. 119 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,480 But at least in in what kind of play experiences they make. 120 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,200 But I mean drone bombing is, you know, there's just not a lot of, 121 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,680 you know, and I'm not saying gun violence is fun by any means and 122 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,240 and a lot of cloud Empress sort of directly engages with the 123 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:55,840 topic. But there's still some space for 124 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,920 play, I think around ranged weaponry that that I wanted to 125 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,120 explore. And also I was listening to the 126 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:10,080 Revolutions podcast on the Russian Russian Revolution and 127 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:11,960 all sorts of stuff so that there's some sort of like 128 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,560 Russian Revolution overtones and stuff like that. 129 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,320 So the original title that that sort of got me excited was 130 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,440 Mother Loaf. It was the sort of idea about 131 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:26,240 like bread and mothership and trying to bring it into a World 132 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,480 War 2 technology, 1940s, nineteen 50s technology setting 133 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,440 and sort of started to explore that idea. 134 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,000 What wasn't entirely sure if it was going to be a historical 135 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:42,880 setting or just one planet that had sort of maybe become a 136 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,800 backwater or sort of trapped. You know people trapped in this 137 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,640 sort of setting started to explore that. 138 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:53,680 But one of the things that I'm really keen on, I I think about 139 00:08:53,680 --> 00:08:58,320 the games I design on and the the books that I make really 140 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:03,320 from a an artistic standpoint but also from a product design 141 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:07,480 standpoint. And so assessing what the visual 142 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,640 impact of a book is going to be is very important to me. 143 00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:14,880 One of the the big things that I try to do with with the books I 144 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:19,120 make I try to go for a unique. I think that's one of the things 145 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,280 that I most love about Mothership as a setting. 146 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,080 It's it's a really unique looking book. 147 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,440 It it's sort of and I think you all have talked about sort of 148 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,040 shed some of the Polish that other RPGs might have for for 149 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:33,920 uniqueness. And I think it really creates 150 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:36,360 something that's really exciting to me. 151 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:44,800 Whereas some of the loose oil painting kind of concept art 152 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:46,720 look that you see in a lot of role-playing games. 153 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,520 I mean certainly can be done really well but it's hard to 154 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,880 distinguish one book from another at a certain point. 155 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:53,600 So you I can say this piece is amazing. 156 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,360 It looks great but I'm not really sure what book it's from 157 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:00,160 and so that's one of the the strong components of the designs 158 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,360 I work on. I I try to have every single 159 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:08,040 piece of art one. Be immediately identifiable as 160 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,960 the setting and two really try to encapsulate most of the 161 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,640 settings complexities and dynamics in it. 162 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,720 So one of the things with the art pieces, usually there's some 163 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:22,880 sort of ecological component as well as some fantasy element as 164 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:24,200 well as some technology in there. 165 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,280 So just the sort of combination of different things to really 166 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,720 sell hey this is every you know every piece of art and the art 167 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,240 direction really pointing to this larger world. 168 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:39,800 So founded art team in Catapulka who Peabida and Guerin are the 169 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:43,560 two artists and and started working with them and helping 170 00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:46,280 develop this visual language. And so we took it more in a a 171 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:51,080 fantasy direction and a farther future direction. 172 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:57,280 More of the science fiction element along the way, which 173 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,000 turned out to be a blessing in disguise. 174 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,840 Tuesday Night Games made a role that you can't have mother in 175 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,880 your title for a third party supplement for a number of 176 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:06,320 reasons. A lot of people were starting to 177 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,640 do it and I wasn't there were two or three already sort of 178 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,960 proposed and so I had to switch the name which I thought was 179 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,320 horrible because I'd already gotten like 302 hundred 180 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,840 followers and and people were liking my stuff already and but 181 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,440 ended up being really good and and I did some audience 182 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,160 engagement around some different name titles and and settled on 183 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:31,680 Cloud Empress and that actually was cloud the character is is 184 00:11:31,680 --> 00:11:35,600 both on the cover but then ended up becoming a major figure in 185 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,400 both the the setting and as well as the setting book and so that 186 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,320 was something that really evolved out of the title itself 187 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:48,440 which I was really happy about and and so that was all in June 188 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:53,960 2022 maybe May 2022 somewhere around there and then started 189 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:58,800 gearing up for a January crowdfunding campaign. 190 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,920 Yeah, I mean, and the campaign did OK, what it it it almost hit 191 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:13,520 a. 100. $1000 You know it was like 98 K So how, how both like 192 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:19,400 exciting and daunting was it to have like 2000 plus backers on 193 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,320 your first Kickstarter? It it was mostly just exciting 194 00:12:24,560 --> 00:12:29,120 one of the things another I I I have some project management 195 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:35,000 experience in my my work life and with crowdfunding campaigns. 196 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:39,240 As as people will tell you you're managing risk all over 197 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:44,000 the place and that the two ways that you can do that are 1 front 198 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,160 loading risk. So putting a lot of your own 199 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,800 resources into a campaign and completing a lot of the game 200 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:53,680 ahead of time. So the the obvious risk then is 201 00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:57,200 that if it's the campaign's not successful, you won't make that 202 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,640 money back or you might not have a successful project or you can 203 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,160 put the risk on the tail end where you have a great idea and 204 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,240 maybe a limited amount of art assets, limited amount of game 205 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:07,360 design. So you haven't put a lot of 206 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,240 investment on the the front end. And then you're sort of taking 207 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,320 that risk on the project management back end where you're 208 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,000 sort of putting the game together and those kinds of 209 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:19,680 things. So I tried to do a lot of work 210 00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:23,040 on the front end with the graphic design, with the art, 211 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,400 with those kinds of things ahead of time. 212 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:31,640 So there was a lot of my previous campaign, hot stuff on 213 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,560 Charlie, if it did maybe $1500, something like that. 214 00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:37,400 So it was. I learned a lot from that 215 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:42,760 campaign around fulfillment, around pricing, around building 216 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,760 a package that I think would excite people and really thought 217 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,960 about cloud emphasis as a much different type of campaign. 218 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,560 But a lot of the fundamentals stayed the same. 219 00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:54,320 So it was really surprising. It felt very validating because 220 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,720 I was, I sold a bass guitar that was sort of I was selling stuff 221 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,400 to pay for art. Those kinds of things. 222 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,920 Didn't mortgage the house or anything like that. 223 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,040 That's not my style. I didn't take out a bunch of 224 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:07,840 credit card debt. I, you know, you hear sometimes 225 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:09,800 you hear creators do that and that just seems like a horrible 226 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:11,520 idea to me. Sometimes it works out for 227 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,160 folks. I mean, I don't need people are 228 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,080 probably looking at me for a life lesson around this stuff, 229 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,160 but I did what was within reason within my budget. 230 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:23,200 But I did stretch things a bit with this idea of benchmarking. 231 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,600 We did a lot of benchmarking around comparable campaigns and 232 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,480 and within the mothership ecosystem. 233 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,080 So I thought it would be much more successful than my previous 234 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,360 campaign, but no idea it was going to be so successful. 235 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,400 And then there were certain things as you mentioned that the 236 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,640 daunting aspect was early around fulfillment. 237 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,680 The quotes that I gave were around me fulfilling everything. 238 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:52,080 So that was that was the horror of the campaign for a long time 239 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:56,520 was just how many books are showing up at my house and how 240 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:58,880 the heck am I? Am I going to get them all in 241 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:00,800 the house and not like will they fit? 242 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,520 Can I get them downstairs? Can I get them out of the house? 243 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:12,760 And the other thing too is so we had about 1800 backers that did 244 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:17,880 physical pledges, but that's eight books and a number of 245 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,280 postcards. So you know, multiply that and 246 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,440 then I tried to do I think 30 to 40% extra. 247 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,520 So that's sort of the the size. So it ended up being I think 248 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:32,600 like 8 or 9 pallets and I hired some movers to help me move them 249 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:37,080 down and and got them all out some kind of grueling physical 250 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,560 labor on my end. But that was the the big scare 251 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:44,880 for me was how do I do this the fulfillment side of things and 252 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:51,240 also I I didn't want to the the project was not priced at having 253 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,120 a fulfillment company do a lot of the fulfillment. 254 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,280 And so that was something I didn't want to change up because 255 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:00,360 I thought there would be some disappointment and and I don't 256 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,160 know, I don't know if I I don't know how backers would have 257 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,320 would have if I doubled the the shipping fees. 258 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,480 I ended up having to increase them based on the the quantity 259 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,280 and volume and things like that and also just the size of the 260 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,400 product increase through development quite a bit the 261 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,760 weight and all those things. But I didn't want to drastically 262 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:19,960 change sort of shipping estimates as much as possible. 263 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,640 And so I I was sort of committed to doing it myself which ended 264 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,000 up working out. I think I'm not something I plan 265 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:31,280 on doing again. Yeah, you know, I I didn't feel 266 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,480 like I waited forever for this. Like when? 267 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,160 When? When did the campaign actually 268 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,200 finish? So the campaign finished 269 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,360 February 7th, maybe something like that. 270 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:48,320 The there's sort of an optimistic fulfillment date out 271 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,640 there. The the more realistic or 272 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,680 conservative one was October and so most backers received their 273 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:56,920 pledges in November. We have a couple, I think maybe 274 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,400 50 to 60 Canadian backers. They're still getting them out 275 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,480 too, just with some delays and holiday shipping. 276 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,040 That was one of the big things I wanted to do was ideally avoid 277 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,240 some of the surcharges and and just chaos of of holiday 278 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:09,880 shipping. We didn't totally do that. 279 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:15,119 But yeah, so it ended up being, I don't know, February to 280 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,960 October for most folks, early November for most folks, which I 281 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,240 was, I was pretty happy with. Yeah, realistically for a 282 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,960 Kickstarter that's a pretty quick, solid turn around. 283 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,319 So especially if you're hand packaging everything that's 284 00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:32,520 that's I I'm, I can't believe that actually is just how long 285 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,360 it took and that you hand sent out like 1800 packages that's 286 00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:38,640 crazy. Yeah, yeah, I I, I think one of, 287 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:41,360 you know, I think a lot about both. 288 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,040 I have to wear a lot of hats being sort of single creator 289 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:51,320 publisher and one of the things they think about with my 290 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,440 publishing hat is is what kind of experience do folks get in in 291 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,960 the crowdfunding campaign. And so that's been something I 292 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:04,160 don't know if I'm I'm I hope folks have as as pleasant an 293 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,240 experience in the crowdfunding campaign as they do with the 294 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,760 product after. I mean ideally the product's a 295 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,560 little better than you know just shopping hopefully you get some 296 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:17,520 fulfillment out of it beyond. But I I've certainly backed a 297 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:22,800 number of crowdfunding campaigns and and it's turns really dark 298 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,880 and really stressful and and feels like people are lying to 299 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,560 you and it just it creates this really toxic relationship 300 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,920 sometimes it feels like it and and there's a lot to be said 301 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,000 about the crowdfunding dynamics and all those sorts of things 302 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,400 and and the systems at play and why those those dynamics happen. 303 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:44,760 But it can really diminish I think my engagement with a piece 304 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,440 of media or a game I get or something like that if I've had 305 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:49,760 sort of a negative perception of the creator through the the 306 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:51,600 crowdfunding campaign. And so that's something I'm 307 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:56,120 really big on is that customer service experience and try to be 308 00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:59,560 really honest and keep my word around things but also be really 309 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,240 realistic and and use sort of that project management lens 310 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,160 around getting out ahead of risks and and really helping 311 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,960 folks see the decisions I'm making, why those decisions are 312 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,360 coming and and ultimately letting people off the boat 313 00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:14,480 with. You know, we really haven't had 314 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,720 a lot of people ask for refunds or drop, but that's always an 315 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,640 option too, if, if, if the changes don't sort of align with 316 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:21,840 someone's vision for the product that we're making. 317 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:28,800 That's a very very like collected holistic like a view 318 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,880 on this whole process that's so like incredibly well-rounded. 319 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,960 And like it's interesting to hear career talk about like Oh 320 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,480 yeah the the experience is like backing this and how they feel 321 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:46,760 about the project past just getting the thing like I really 322 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,360 I I I think very highly of you for that because I've had a lot 323 00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:51,760 of native. I think Ball had negative 324 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,360 experiences with Kickstarter. Or we're just like, oh man, I 325 00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:58,840 feel different about this after having to deal with the person 326 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,080 creating this, yeah. And one of my one of my largest 327 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:07,240 concerns right now we're seeing this proliferation of multiple 328 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:15,240 crowdfunding platforms and Kickstarter right now is is I 329 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,760 think still raising the sort of largest amount of revenue, 330 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:22,520 especially for smaller projects. But I'm interested to see how 331 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,360 those negative experiences coalesce around the the brand of 332 00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:28,560 Kickstarter. I'm starting to see more and 333 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:30,840 more people say I don't back Kickstarters anymore. 334 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,280 So does that mean crowdfunding? Does that mean other platforms? 335 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:39,280 I I'm just really not sure. I well I seem to see like folks 336 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:43,560 make exceptions even when they say that around track record and 337 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,400 trust and and what they see in a campaign and what they can maybe 338 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,200 touch and feel and and identify ahead of the campaign to to make 339 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,440 sure something's not like vaporware or something's not you 340 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,320 know totally unfinished. But it's it's things change so 341 00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:58,600 quickly. I mean I would have never 342 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,360 thought we don't need to go into it. 343 00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:03,080 But I spent so much time building this Twitter brand and 344 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,080 I was all so excited and I got like 1000 Twitter followers out 345 00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:11,040 of out of like you know I went from zero to 1000 in like 6 to 8 346 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,120 months because the amount of effort and time I had put into 347 00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:17,040 it and that just sort of all it's totally evaporated for a 348 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,320 number of reasons. And so you just really can't 349 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,320 predict these things. But I, I try to keep my eye on 350 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,280 trends and and really think about again that human 351 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:32,680 experience folks have because one of the things I've watched 352 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,320 some videos on and I I I'm kind of into marketing weirdly. 353 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,800 But one of the things I I've heard folks talk about is, is if 354 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,880 you're an artist, you're an artist but you're also a 355 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:50,440 salesperson in, in our digital environment, we do a lot of 356 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:52,520 sales, right. So how do we create a sales 357 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,320 experience that doesn't feel, doesn't leave the bad taste in 358 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,680 your mouth throughout the entire process And and how do I create 359 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,880 a sales like sales funnel, right? 360 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:06,280 How do I get people who just hear the name Cloud Empress into 361 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,840 a place where they can make a determination whether it's a 362 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,520 game they think they'll enjoy, whether that's playing it or 363 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,400 reading it. So that's just a lot of what I 364 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,480 think about it and not doing that out of a way of of like 365 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,440 helping people make an informed decision is is what I really try 366 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,440 to do. And a lot of that too is is like 367 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,320 the rule books free that I I plan on keeping that free for 368 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,880 for a long long time just to help people. 369 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:37,480 Like you can look at what you're going to get you know and really 370 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,200 sort of see what the game's about before you have to make a 371 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,360 financial decision. Because I know there's a lot of 372 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:45,960 games competing for people's interests. 373 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,800 And also I mean money's tight and and games bring a lot of joy 374 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,320 to people's lives and and we we have to make sort of finite 375 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:54,760 decisions about what we purchase. 376 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,120 I will say one last thing though. 377 00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:03,600 I am a little, I don't know, maybe I do get a little worried 378 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,960 about this idea though of of like being a consumer as our 379 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:12,680 primary mode of engaging with art and and particularly around 380 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,000 reviewers that sort of speak as consumer advocates. 381 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:20,520 I find that very very unnerving at times and I really think 382 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,000 about a lot of the work I do from like an art first 383 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:27,200 standpoint and and using the commercial vehicles of our 384 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,960 economy to sort of get art to people that that are interested 385 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,800 in it who whose lives might be impacted or changed by it. 386 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,600 So I I do try to be careful about this this like consumer 387 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:41,640 first idea more like a people first I don't know kind of thing 388 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:47,000 but the whole the word consumer has a lot of connotations along 389 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,240 with like content and content creator and all these other 390 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,000 things so. Yeah, that's a lot, I mean. 391 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,640 Some of the stuff I think. About it, if you really think 392 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,520 about it, it's a slippery slope to cloud Empress from here. 393 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,000 You know what I mean? This is where it starts. 394 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,160 But you know a lot of what you said to not dig too deep into 395 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:09,160 into some things, but regardless of like the, not regardless of 396 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,160 as part of like the consumer experience because like we are, 397 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,800 I mean I consume things. It's the thing that happens. 398 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,720 But I will say that like I especially with as far as 399 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,560 crowdfunding and stuff goes to me, what I've always found the 400 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,880 most important and what I really appreciate about the way that 401 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,880 you've handed yourself through this entire process is just, I 402 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,120 don't even want to say like personable, like you've been 403 00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:35,600 very upfront from the beginning. You laid out the expectations 404 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,800 from the beginning. As we said that you, you turned 405 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,120 a project around that's this beautiful in what would you say 406 00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:44,400 like 8-9 months and there's still, I think, what are there 407 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,760 like 23 updates on the Kickstarter in that period of 408 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,840 time? That to me is what I find most 409 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,360 important is I will wait and I have, there's still projects I'm 410 00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:56,960 waiting four years on that I'm not mad about because I've been 411 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:58,360 updated through the entire process. 412 00:24:58,360 --> 00:25:01,480 There's an explanation a little bit of like the sausage is made 413 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,360 kind of thing. And one thing that I really 414 00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:06,600 appreciate about how it seems the way that you like, project 415 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,520 manage this entire thing is, is it about what you talked about 416 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:14,400 Like you want people to enjoy the game, enjoy the experience, 417 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,280 the book is free. Like there's all these little 418 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,960 things all the way through where it's like very clearly not 419 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,600 necessarily like for the consumer as in I paid money for 420 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:23,280 this. So I want it. 421 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,040 But for the person that wants to appreciate the art that you made 422 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,440 with this and and the thing that's actually produced in 423 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:33,800 their hands, that mean a lot and that there's a lot of ways where 424 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,120 little things can Ding a thing. You know what I mean? 425 00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:38,840 Like one thing here, one thing here and then at the end you 426 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,160 might have a bad experience. And for me, as far as cloud 427 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,560 business concerned, like, I felt like I had the opposite 428 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,200 experience with that where like every time I got an update or 429 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,800 like when I was talking to you know, I talked to Christian a 430 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:50,880 lot. They've been on the show the 431 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,160 first time I heard that like the book is just going to be free 432 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:54,200 for a long time. Things like that. 433 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,280 I'm just like every time I heard about Cloud Empress, it was 434 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,280 always a positive experience. And I don't really think like at 435 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,880 any point was I like, yeah, but they could have done that 436 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,200 differently like and that's what I think it's really fantastic. 437 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,200 Yeah. Well, I mean, even the other No. 438 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,480 Go for it. Well, the the other thing that 439 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,600 comes to mind and I appreciate you saying all that because 440 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,960 those are all kind of micro decisions I've been trying to 441 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,560 make. There's more and more research 442 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:21,800 about trust, which I think is interesting. 443 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:29,640 The research I've seen around trust breaks down into 444 00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:36,560 competence and integrity, or competence and values and what 445 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,760 they what. The stuff I've read about it 446 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:45,520 from researchers is that trust can be rebuilt, but there 447 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,840 there's also It's really difficult to regain trust. 448 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,200 When you feel like someone's integrity is compromised or 449 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,880 their values are compromised or are strongly different than your 450 00:26:54,880 --> 00:27:01,400 own, people can show that they have competence by doing better, 451 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,760 by by fixing things. But I think a lot of the time 452 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:11,840 where there's that breakdown is when someone is dishonest and 453 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:16,280 there's a lot of pressure. I feel when I'm writing these 454 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,280 updates to paint a good picture. I want people to think that 455 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,960 things are going well. And I I also think there's a 456 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,920 turning point. I don't know if this is the all 457 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,280 the the conversation you all intended to have, but I think 458 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,720 there's this sort of like winners, losers, mentality that 459 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,520 we have. I don't know if that's societal. 460 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,920 I don't know if it's some kind of like I I get really cautious 461 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:43,120 about anything being biological. But a lot of what crowdfunding 462 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:45,720 is about is this idea of like this is a winner. 463 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,480 You're participating as a winner. 464 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,480 And then a lot of that comes down to what the first day looks 465 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,880 like, the momentum of the campaign over time. 466 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,800 But a crowd can really turn on a campaign and it becomes this 467 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,080 this like really negative cathartic thing where people 468 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,520 just and it's it's a guilty pleasure sometimes for me to 469 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,560 read them. But I know it could just as 470 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,480 easily be me and and sometimes it's not up to the creator why 471 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,560 the that thing turns but people. And then you see the whole 472 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,000 psychological thing of, like, come on, I know they can do it. 473 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:24,560 If you're reading this, I believe in you. 474 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,400 And people going through these, like, stages of grief over the 475 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,880 $500 they put into this miniature scheme that they're 476 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,160 never going to see in this Ponzi scheme, right. 477 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,280 So it's just so it's such a psychologically interesting 478 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,720 thing. But a lot of what I learned was 479 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:43,920 from Jamie Stigmeyer around. He's put out a ton of tremendous 480 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,120 free resources around. One of the things, just for an 481 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:52,960 example, I probably said it a couple times, but he's like, if 482 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:54,800 you're just a single person, just talk from your own 483 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:56,880 perspective. Don't be like we're we're the 484 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:58,280 corporation that's making this game. 485 00:28:58,280 --> 00:28:59,960 If it's just you, just say it's you, right? 486 00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:01,200 And so that's something I try to do. 487 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:02,880 It's like it's just me most of the time. 488 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,480 Like we have a team of people that that put together certain 489 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:07,800 things, but a lot of times it's just me. 490 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,800 And so just being open and honest about that with the trust 491 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,400 that it's not going to scare someone in that it's not this 492 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,480 like huge production team that's never going to make a mistake, 493 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:22,360 but instead going for this more realistic trust based approach. 494 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:32,720 And really I think to comfort to me is, is the more authentic you 495 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,920 are with boundaries, with healthy boundaries, the more you 496 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:41,720 could filter out who will be who, someone might enjoy your 497 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,320 work. And also like there are 498 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:44,920 customers I don't want to deal with, right? 499 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:49,320 Like, there are people that have expectations I can't meet 500 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,520 primarily, or demands that I think are unhealthy that I like, 501 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:56,880 I don't want to engage with, right? 502 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,760 And so I can help set the context and the expectations for 503 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,000 folks and other people can meet them, right? 504 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,320 So I think one of the things I I tried to make caught up as big 505 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:14,080 and polished, but like, I didn't go with the hardcover rulebook 506 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:15,960 and all those kinds of things, because I wasn't sure I could 507 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,160 ship that and make it without it getting all bent up. 508 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:19,480 Right. So I don't know. 509 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,360 I don't really know how to do that at this point. 510 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,360 Maybe later I will. But just an example of like 511 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,200 setting some of those expectations, yeah. 512 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,320 I think it's funny how much of that whole thing was like yeah, 513 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,960 this is just being an artist and being a human dealing with like 514 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,640 the expectations and this like ingrained thought process of 515 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,000 capitalism like the winner losing thing is like total 516 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,080 social Darwinism like capitalist bullshit where. 517 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,760 But I do think that you're right when you come out as like hey 518 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:55,360 I'm a person doing this and like if I make mistakes like I am 519 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,840 trying not to but I am a singular human, it makes you so 520 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,240 much more relatable. Like, I think that's so true And 521 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,960 and I think you obviously have seen a lot of success like in 522 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,800 taking that approach and I've seen other people who have had 523 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,960 less success because they were like, oh, this are a little 524 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:13,320 company. I'm like, it's you and one other 525 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,440 dude, you know? Yeah, it makes a big difference. 526 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,480 I just don't understand. I mean especially with like 527 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,800 modern kind of views on companies and stuff of Ditterel 528 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,880 cuz like I mean we're eat the rich people here. 529 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:31,480 So like, I just don't see a reason to an extent to to try to 530 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,760 put this like almost barrier of branding between. 531 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:36,680 It's like why make yourself faceless? 532 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,960 Because we are human being. We see faces in the backs of 533 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,560 cars like we want, like we we personify people. 534 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,720 So it is it is really nice to be able to see the person doing it. 535 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,680 But in some of the stuff we're talking about with crowdfunding, 536 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,120 like as someone who's backed way too many projects, I've always 537 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:58,720 found the thing that got me less interested in a project over 538 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:03,240 time is like I I think obviously, you know, everyone 539 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,120 needs to set boundaries for what they can do on Kickstarter. 540 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,240 For me, I think what immediately turns my head is when, like, 541 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:13,280 someone sets a boundary and then fails at their like, to meet 542 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:14,640 where they've set that boundary as well. 543 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,640 So if you say like, I'm going to do a monthly update and then six 544 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,720 months passes by, I can tell you like that I you, I can tell you 545 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,120 right now that in six months we're going to hear that some 546 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,600 terrible life of it happened and you're six months behind and 547 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,520 like all this other stuff. And it's just like I would I'm 548 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:35,360 happy to get hey nothing happened but I'm still alive 549 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,840 updates every month. If they said they were going to 550 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,800 do it every month then to hear nothing for six months and then 551 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:42,280 be like well, I didn't have anything to say. 552 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,040 So I I think the setting the boundaries and then like meeting 553 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,560 those expectations for the backers at least from someone 554 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,400 who's backed a ton was is incredibly important in 555 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,040 crowdfunding. And as I said, like you seem to 556 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,040 have met like all of those, like, if if I forget that I 557 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,240 backed a project and I'm not worried about it, to me that 558 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:00,840 feels good. Where I'm like, oh, it's been 559 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,120 six months, didn't even realize, like we're we're, we're good. 560 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:05,640 I heard something about it last month. 561 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,920 That's fine, you know. And there's there's to speak it 562 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,080 to that too. I I've done that on occasion, 563 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:18,280 mostly with internal development goals with you feel the pressure 564 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,240 and you're things have to change or I need to. 565 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,240 I need to get on track, so I'm going to set this this goal that 566 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:30,200 I think I can do, and maybe it's optimistic, but there's all this 567 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,880 research about how bad we are at setting goals and one of the 568 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:41,240 things I've started to do is I have like a Kanban board, like a 569 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,240 post it board, but I put the expected time on one side and 570 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,480 once it's done and I write how many hours it takes. 571 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,040 So this is an adventure. I'm writing for Cloud Empress, 572 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,560 so I have six hours, so I'm probably at like 8 right now. 573 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:58,480 But I try to just do this so I can check my own headspace 574 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,960 around. Am I getting how am I doing with 575 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:06,880 estimating things? Because it's so easy to say, OK, 576 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,280 I was in AI was in a bad place or things weren't going well 577 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,679 before, but now they're going to change and it and it's it 578 00:34:13,679 --> 00:34:17,760 doesn't work that way. Normally it's it's but it's so 579 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:23,800 easy to to feel the pressure of an audience or an editor or a 580 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,480 team that's waiting for something. 581 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,159 Or a discord server Discord. Server whomever. 582 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,280 Because folks, folks are excited and folks want to see your work 583 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,120 and folks want to have it in their hands. 584 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:41,800 And I I will say too I have seen just a tremendous amount of like 585 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:46,800 patience and understanding and and I had to pull out. 586 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,159 I I drastically underestimated how big these books were going 587 00:34:53,159 --> 00:34:56,760 to be. So how that what what happened 588 00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,880 then was like oh like I couldn't fit the introductory adventure 589 00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:03,200 in the book. Like these are 60 pages is the 590 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,600 most I can get in AI engage with backers or audience members and 591 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,360 they said oh we really want staple bound. 592 00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:13,040 So that took perfect bound off the table because people said we 593 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,600 want it to be flat. We want it to be a book that we 594 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,880 can kind of throw around. So that was sort of a constraint 595 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:20,840 on the project. But then it became, well, we can 596 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,920 only print 60 pages and 60 pages is pretty big. 597 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,000 I do like 50 pages might have been, might have fold flatter a 598 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:29,840 little bit. But then it became oh like what 599 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,520 do I do with this inner in intro adventure or you know, I 600 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,440 couldn't fit the pamphlets. The pamphlets were just not 601 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,840 going to fit with the commission's I had for. 602 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:44,000 So yeah, expanding those kinds of things, not sure why I 603 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,920 brought that up at this point, but just talking about how how 604 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,360 those the scope things can change maybe, I don't know. 605 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,440 It's very mothershipy for you to have so many scenes, though, you 606 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,560 know what I mean? Like, yeah, this is this is the 607 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:56,960 most mothershipy thing ever. It's like. 608 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,720 This entire shelf, except for maybe like these two books, is 609 00:36:01,720 --> 00:36:04,560 just mothership scenes. So, like, it's definitely a 610 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,600 scene thing to have mothership. But you know, it's really clear 611 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,600 though that you do have project management experience, and I 612 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,880 think that's where a lot of people tend to to suffer as 613 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:13,840 well. There's people out there that 614 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,760 make great stuff and then I'm never gonna back it again 615 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,360 because their product management on their crowdfunding was just 616 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,760 abysmal. And it's it sucks, but when 617 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,200 you've lost someone, you've lost someone. 618 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,680 But again, it seems like every step of the way you're talking 619 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:35,960 about like sourcing out, like do I do perfect out Or like there's 620 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:37,920 there's this thought all the way through where it's just like 621 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,000 what do people want? What's the best thing that I can 622 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,720 give and still like have my vision come through. 623 00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:46,480 That just seems like I said it it it's really important to a 624 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,920 project and it's very evident once you get this. 625 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,880 And it's interesting too to hear like why it is interesting, like 626 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,400 why the intro adventures not in the first one and why it's 627 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,600 staple bound and why there's like 6 pamphlets and why it's 628 00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:58,840 not a hardback book and stuff like that. 629 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,200 Those are really awesome things to hear and I'm sure like people 630 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,240 that are creating Kickstarters in the future, it's just like it 631 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:10,840 Sometimes you have to like these are the things that happen 632 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,280 because these are the way that as the things are presented to 633 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,600 me that their best possible options versus being like, no, I 634 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,240 have to do this thing and there's no compromise and I 635 00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:20,720 think that can bury people too. So it's really nice to hear and 636 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:24,600 see that it again, It is a fantastic project and it looks 637 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,960 great and to hear the reasons why it turned out the way it did 638 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,880 is really cool. The other thing I I I don't 639 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,200 probably nobody knows this but one of the other well I talked 640 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,240 to Sean McCoy a little bit about this and one of the things 641 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:41,840 advice he gave me was I wanted to make this as equitable a 642 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,080 project I could with not fully understanding what the costs are 643 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,040 going to be. So the adventure writers in 644 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:52,680 particular are getting per copy royalty on on the, you know, 645 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:54,760 which, which isn't uncommon. I'm not like bragging about that 646 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,440 or anything like that. But he was sort of talking like 647 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,240 when you do that, you're maybe committing the next 20 years of 648 00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:04,840 your life to be engaged with that person, right. 649 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,560 And so one of the things that I'm, I want to make projects 650 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:14,920 that are equitable, that support the creators, that that put 651 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:21,520 their artistry into them and and support diverse creators, you 652 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,000 know, their livelihoods, all those kinds of things. 653 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,280 But one of the things that was really intentional about this is 654 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,160 like, you know, I won't even say I, I, you know, but if one of 655 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,840 these people like something really bad, they do something 656 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:33,800 really bad. Like we can pull that book and 657 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:35,360 continue to sell these books, right? 658 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,320 Or we don't have to. Like, one of the things we've 659 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:44,120 talked about with trust, right, is like if somebody does 660 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,040 something really bad and they're like 12 pages in here, like, how 661 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,160 do people feel about that work? And so that's something I really 662 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,520 think about in in. I've been a part of a lot of 663 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,600 communities that have self destructed from some really 664 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,880 toxic behavior and I I've come to believe that you can do your 665 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,400 best and I have like a value statement. 666 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,720 We try to talk about the the values of a company I'm working 667 00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:11,920 with. You know like legally protecting 668 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,680 myself from from the impacts other people's can have, other 669 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,320 people can have. But ultimately that's like 670 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,920 another place where trust really comes out as the the people you 671 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:23,480 collaborate with. And so building financial 672 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,840 security into those relationships while also trying 673 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,360 to create an equity is something that's really challenging and I 674 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,320 think not something a lot of folks, a lot of folks approach 675 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,880 community and partnerships with this like well of course things 676 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,760 are going to go well. We're both great people, right? 677 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,560 And maybe that's like just me being a low trust person but 678 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:47,760 I've just seen so many really horrible stuff or or somebody 679 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,720 having royalties on a piece of work that then it's like it just 680 00:39:50,720 --> 00:39:52,800 feels icky for everyone. Everyone loves the game but it 681 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,960 just feels really icky to to sell it anymore and and I don't 682 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,040 know that's sort of a a tangent and and maybe but I think it's 683 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:06,360 important for me that that I stand by the the folks that work 684 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,640 on the games and and that I support them financially. 685 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:11,040 Those are those are values of mine. 686 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,000 You know, even though you're like a massive corporation, I 687 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:16,880 want you to know I think you're very humane, so. 688 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,880 Yeah. So kind of shifting gears a 689 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,480 little bit, it's still talking about the Kickstarter though. 690 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,440 Did you aside from the things we did talk about, did you 691 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,320 actually, did you run into any big complications or has was 692 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,360 your kind of like step by step product management able to keep 693 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,120 most of that stuff just to like maybe having to like switch 694 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,360 gears but not really like hit a wall at all? 695 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:49,800 The the two two worst parts of the campaign just stress wise 696 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,880 were one, we lost a fulfillment partner in the UK pretty last 697 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,760 minute and things significantly changed with their fulfillment 698 00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:59,160 model. Like every month we were working 699 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,200 together and so that was a big scare for me and and 700 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,160 unfortunately we had promised this we I had promised this 701 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,440 customs well me and the fulfillment partner promised 702 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,680 like this customs free experience for for EU backers in 703 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:15,680 particular and their their business model changed and I 704 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,600 don't necessarily I mean I'm not criticizing them for that like 705 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:19,920 they have to do what they have to do. 706 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,040 I don't think they do fulfillment anymore even because 707 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,200 it's it's a really their margins are so low on all this stuff. 708 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,800 It totally makes sense in this all these kind of again the 709 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,000 fulfillment partners all these people are like except for maybe 710 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,080 some of the printers and and in particular it's all one or two 711 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,240 people doing all this stuff in many cases. 712 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,040 So that was a big scare and and I was really worried and and 713 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,520 there is a financial ones just consumer experience impact 714 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,680 around customs free is so nice when you can do it for folks 715 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,200 that they get the thing and they don't have to pay a bunch of 716 00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,800 money and it and and from what I hear like sometimes you have to 717 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,160 go to the post office and sign these papers and all this kinds 718 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,840 of stuff and it's really just a scare like I don't know how much 719 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:08,080 this is going to cost nobody knows like what the what's going 720 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,800 to have I don't know so there's just a big scare So that was a 721 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:15,160 big thing that that really freaked me out and we ended up 722 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,000 getting it to folks for reasonable price with this 723 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:24,400 customs addition that that was unfortunate but I think I only 724 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,560 had one backer that said that that wasn't going to be 725 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,240 financially viable or or not even that but they just didn't 726 00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:31,520 want to participate in that kind of model it was just not what 727 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,600 they were looking for in the campaign and and got them the 728 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,240 digital files I think so or or we'll get them the digital files 729 00:42:39,240 --> 00:42:42,840 on drive through when when they they're out the other piece was 730 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:48,160 cloud. Empress was originally sort of 731 00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:52,280 designed to be a little bit more of and I'm not like the the most 732 00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:56,160 like a little bit. More story gaming. 733 00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:02,480 So like the original hex scroll is going to be like 48 hexes or 734 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,600 something like that with the idea that they were going to be 735 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:10,960 a lot more in each HEX and a lot more almost pre scripted 736 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,680 scenarios that would have characters and and there is a 737 00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:18,200 system of like tracking NPCS across the hexes. 738 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:23,240 So NPCS and bean barge like I would actually track where they 739 00:43:23,240 --> 00:43:25,200 were moving and what decisions they were making. 740 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:30,720 And what I came to realize was that I was sort of playing my 741 00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:34,520 own game. I was taking these NPCS I really 742 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,280 loved and taking them on adventures and and offering that 743 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,840 to the players. But through development editing 744 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,720 really realized that that was sort of the fun of the warden in 745 00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:48,040 particular like that's the fun where the word gets to express 746 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,240 their creativity and and and also that I didn't need to do 747 00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:54,280 it. I draw a lot of inspiration. 748 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:55,400 Very. Important When you're doing all 749 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,680 this yourself, what do you not need to do, you know? 750 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:02,160 And it was just a ton of work and and it wasn't fun overhead 751 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,880 for people to do so. I still tried to keep one of the 752 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,000 the ideas that I have that I think is cute is still having 753 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:13,520 NPCS show up that you've met before maybe and that I think 754 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,160 may turn some players off and that it's well, how do you know 755 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,960 that NPC is alive still? But that's just sort of, I don't 756 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,880 know, trusting that, trusting the people there to to put 757 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,920 somebody else in or just bring them back from the dead, cursed 758 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,720 or you know whatever. But that was the biggest thing 759 00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:39,320 was really leaning more into a OSR type old school sense of 760 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,120 play where versus something that was a little bit more 761 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:50,880 situational and scripted and and modeled more like scenes and and 762 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:58,360 situations rather than this larger minimalist at times hex 763 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,920 map. So that was like a big change 764 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:07,840 and it it scared me and we ended up doing 2 development passes 765 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,160 with sort of like the we went through one dev pass and and 766 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,440 realized certain things weren't where they needed to be and some 767 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,160 of the the risks I were taking weren't paying off. 768 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,000 I like taking risks. I like trying new stuff, but 769 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,800 they just weren't. They were more work than they 770 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:29,040 were and and and they were coming out of a place of maybe 771 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,320 taking some of the fun out of the warden in particular, and so 772 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:36,080 bringing that back in meant like a pretty major rewrite on the 773 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,960 setting book in particular. Also I guess the other piece too 774 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:43,480 with the the first development editing pass I wanted to write. 775 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:48,480 I felt like obligated to write a lot of how to play RPG stuff 776 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,600 which I'm sure you all love. I'm like what is an RPG and like 777 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,360 I have maybe I I released all this stuff too. 778 00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,640 I I I'm a big fan of just like releasing work in progress 779 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:03,480 materials but I had a like two or three pages on safety tools 780 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:09,120 and and one of the things that I've realized is I run games I 781 00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,240 play RPGs. But there are people that that 782 00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:16,240 do it a lot more than I do and also have a lot more experience 783 00:46:16,240 --> 00:46:18,240 and knowledge and insight and then that stuff. 784 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,560 I felt like I wasn't you know when I got advice on I wasn't 785 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,280 really saying anything new or profound and so trusting the 786 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,120 players to there's a lot of trust I try to give to the 787 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:33,400 players and and like Hunter you talked about the Magic being 788 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,160 pretty wacky like trusting players to have fun with Magic 789 00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,680 and and knowing where I can play with that trust. 790 00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,360 So one of the areas that I I I gave a little bit more trust 791 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,920 around was not needing to write a ton about safety. 792 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:50,840 I I mentioned that safety's important in in play but I think 793 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:55,360 Troika has a one of the examples we used when writing the book 794 00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,560 was like Troika said something like just go search the Internet 795 00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:00,720 for it right. It's like it's there, you can 796 00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:06,000 look for it and and also sort of key to the work I do is really 797 00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:07,960 figuring out who this game is for. 798 00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:11,200 And and I didn't imagine it was going to be for someone's like 799 00:47:11,240 --> 00:47:15,400 first RPG, maybe they're second or third or they're they're 800 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,680 friends first. But that somebody with some 801 00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:21,240 experience was probably guiding someone into this experience and 802 00:47:21,240 --> 00:47:23,440 that they would be setting the tone for it. 803 00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,000 Yeah, that's so that's such a funny thing because we do often 804 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:28,960 talk about that. It's like there will be these 805 00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,640 RPGs that are like, like fairly esoteric. 806 00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,480 Like, you know, you're not finding this in your first time 807 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:35,880 playing a game or maybe your fifth time. 808 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:40,840 And like, yeah, they'll have a whole How To section, so it's. 809 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,880 Not necessary like all the time. My line is like, this is not 810 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,040 your first game. Like there's no way this is your 811 00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,120 first game. Like, it's very rare that this 812 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:50,800 could be and the person running it, it's definitely not theirs. 813 00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,440 So like the need to have like what is the TTRBG and like even 814 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,240 the safety tools thing. Obviously we're big safety tools 815 00:47:56,240 --> 00:47:57,600 people. But I think even just like 816 00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,960 mentioning that it's a good idea to use them for most times is is 817 00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,200 good enough. Because I definitely think there 818 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:07,200 was like a like a, like a like a movement a little bit in TRBGS 819 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:12,200 where there's this like big, like maybe like unawareness of 820 00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,320 them or like not drive. And then, like it became like 821 00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:18,160 such a big push that it's now just kind of an accepted part of 822 00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,680 the community that like everyone knows about it a little bit 823 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:21,920 more. So it's there's weird things 824 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,880 that sometimes happen where like things something might not have 825 00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:26,600 been there. So there's a big push for it. 826 00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,240 And now for the most part, I think if you talk to most people 827 00:48:29,240 --> 00:48:31,160 in the scene, like they know what a safety tool is. 828 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:35,320 It's not often, but if we also did talk about that with like in 829 00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,480 Mouse Rider and stuff like that, like having a what is the TTRPG 830 00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:43,280 thing in a game that might be someones first game is a great 831 00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,240 thing to have. It's just yeah like if you're 832 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:51,080 the odds of some people's yeah like super weird esoteric like 833 00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:55,680 you know found on the on the page 10 of of some website game 834 00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:57,680 doesn't necessarily need 3 pages on it. 835 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:01,480 So it's it's interesting that you made that the the choice in 836 00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:03,040 in the the rule book for you as well. 837 00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:07,200 And and the design philosophy then extends to the like the 838 00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:11,720 setting book like a lot of these hex descriptions I don't know. 839 00:49:11,720 --> 00:49:14,480 I'll try to find. Should I try to find one? 840 00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,600 That's. Some of them are kind of minimal 841 00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:20,200 lost, you know, there are a couple sentences for an entire 842 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:25,120 hex. I'm not going to find it. 2 843 00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,160 green Pharma legs tag a concrete wall with a bucket of paint. 844 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,000 Three of their friends sit in the shade of the collapsed 845 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:32,760 aqueduct, watching, laughing and flirting. 846 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:37,520 So it's just a sentence. And I think if we set up this 847 00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:41,920 like how to play an RPG and all this like hand holding in the 848 00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,480 the, there's not a lot of hand holding for that, right? 849 00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,520 I mean, I think it's evocative, but it's going to take some 850 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:52,240 creativity and experience to make that come alive and like, 851 00:49:52,240 --> 00:49:54,560 fill in those details, like there's not a list of who those 852 00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:57,920 NPCS are, There's no stats for those NPCS, but. 853 00:49:59,240 --> 00:50:01,800 This kind of circles back to trust, You know, like this is 854 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:06,440 you trusting your players like your wardens to like fill in the 855 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:08,400 blanks. And I personally do not. 856 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,600 If you make a hex crawl and every single hex is packed, I 857 00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:13,560 don't want to play it. I love a hex that has like, 858 00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:15,400 yeah, like that. Like they're just tagging a wall 859 00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:16,760 and it's a bunch of dudes hanging out. 860 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:20,320 Feel so lived in. Like this is what people do, 861 00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:22,560 like they have nothing to do. It's midday, they're done for 862 00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:24,040 the day or whatever. They're taking a break, they're 863 00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,280 tagging a wall. You're going to your your 864 00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,240 party's going to shoot the shit with them and maybe have an arm 865 00:50:29,240 --> 00:50:32,080 wrestling competition and you'll go on your way, you know? 866 00:50:32,720 --> 00:50:35,320 But you know I really love a lot of the way that you do hexes and 867 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:38,840 like my my go to example a lot of times is nature may from 868 00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:40,760 highland paranormal with the way that they write adventures 869 00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:42,240 because they do a ton of micro dungeons. 870 00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:47,240 And I I really like when a situation is is put out there 871 00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,480 and that's what you get. You know, I think my biggest 872 00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,520 knock personally to me, I'm not as mean on 5E as I used to be. 873 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,600 But it's because every situation is like described where like the 874 00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,440 way that I really enjoy hexes is like you said here are these 875 00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:03,160 people doing this thing as opposed to hear these people 876 00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,680 doing this thing. If you do this role for that, if 877 00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,720 you do this role for that because you're not even it feels 878 00:51:09,720 --> 00:51:13,440 like not Even so much that the GM is railroading the players, 879 00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:16,280 but that the module is railroading the GM to force 880 00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,960 these very specific situations. And that's just not the game I 881 00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:23,440 like to play because like I play the game to to see how the world 882 00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:25,040 happens and see how the players happen. 883 00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:27,160 So the way that you do a lot of the descriptions and the hexes 884 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,040 like that are are, it's really fantastic because yeah, just 885 00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,720 give me give me the seed and let my players you know and I can 886 00:51:33,720 --> 00:51:36,600 plant it and let the players grow it, you know and it it's 887 00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:38,520 it's really nice to see a lot of the descriptions you did with 888 00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:41,520 the axis the. The other thing that I think I I 889 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:46,960 just love about hex scrolls at least writing them is and I 890 00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:49,800 don't I I forget what your your all opinions on this are but I 891 00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,280 don't do like many adventure hooks on any of the the 892 00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:55,480 locations because it's a big hex map. 893 00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:58,240 It's like just go somewhere else like if it's boring you do 894 00:51:58,240 --> 00:52:00,960 something else right. Like I think it. 895 00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,880 I think adventure hooks are more important especially in 896 00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:05,440 mothership. When you're going into a, it's 897 00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,720 like you're going, there's a lot of derelict ships. 898 00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,560 It's like I'm not going to go in there like, so you need a hook 899 00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,840 to get in there. At least it feels like when I'm 900 00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:16,120 playing mothership games. But with the hex crawl it's like 901 00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:20,320 just go somewhere else like, but to write this big like, you know 902 00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,160 some people say there's a treasure chest in the basement 903 00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:25,880 and da, da, da, da, da and like the old man told you this and 904 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,960 and that that stuff like, I don't know works for some folks, 905 00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:33,480 but it's just something I I let go of and and made the world to 906 00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:35,440 me feel a little bit more organic. 907 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:42,040 And also that it's like like apples to apples, right. 908 00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:43,560 It's like all the jokes are written for you. 909 00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,520 So where where does the And I think that's something that's 910 00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,360 really interesting to me as someone who like originally came 911 00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:56,080 to RPGs to create worlds. Like that's kind of my 912 00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:58,120 publishing imprint is worlds by what? 913 00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,440 Like I like making settings. I like world building. 914 00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:01,880 That's the thing that excites me. 915 00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,680 And I try to think that I would play Cloud Empress as someone 916 00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:08,200 that didn't design it because I think there's still a lot of 917 00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:10,320 space for that world building creativity. 918 00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:14,240 And I never try to fill in the bubble or the the picture 919 00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:19,800 because I think one of the big challenges I have, especially 920 00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:24,960 around world building, like I would never run a a Lord of the 921 00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:28,640 Rings game ever, because I know one of my players is going to 922 00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:30,080 know more about Tolkien than I am. 923 00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:31,800 Right. It's very static. 924 00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:37,440 And the people that are excited. So it's it that that just seems 925 00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,960 to be like this fundamental problem of like having to stay 926 00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:44,800 on script within these boundaries and and having agreed 927 00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:48,320 upon universes. I am writing a lot of I do 928 00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,520 monthly expansions for Cloud Empress on my newsletter and so 929 00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:54,120 a lot of the like world building stuff that people want to find 930 00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,720 out about they can vote on and then I and then I write that 931 00:53:57,720 --> 00:54:00,760 stuff. So we did one on farming just 932 00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:03,720 like on farming and and one of the next ones is like law and 933 00:54:03,720 --> 00:54:08,600 order in the Lowland Wastes the setting the the hex crawl area 934 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:12,240 that that's already out but I think I try to write those vague 935 00:54:12,240 --> 00:54:15,320 enough where it's like regional or like this is how it normally 936 00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,120 is or these are some particular people that are having this 937 00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:24,120 experience. So that I one of my into the odd 938 00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:27,240 is like and I should say electric bastion land is is 939 00:54:27,240 --> 00:54:29,920 great because it's just this like anything could possibly fit 940 00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:33,360 in here if you're creative enough to make it work. 941 00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,040 And and sometimes I think that can make the set. 942 00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,560 I I think it works well in electric bastion land because 943 00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:41,520 there's these spaces like the underground is like where you 944 00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,480 put your robots and your AI and your your demons and stuff 945 00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:48,200 technology and and I forget what it's called the the old world or 946 00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:50,880 the outlands or whatever is where you put the Cowboys stuff 947 00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:52,880 and so there's these different spots for it and that's 948 00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:54,040 something I tried to do with cloud. 949 00:54:54,040 --> 00:55:00,600 Empress was let other people's creativity have a space where 950 00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:02,840 they weren't going to feel like they were stepping on my toes, 951 00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,560 creating or expanding the world. Well, it's. 952 00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:08,040 I don't even know. We've given, like, hard opinions 953 00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:09,160 on hex crawls. I love them. 954 00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:11,120 The great I love. Hex crawl. 955 00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:13,400 Yeah. To me, I think what's really the 956 00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:16,680 most important is just like exactly what you're talking. 957 00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:19,560 It's just a broad stroke. Like I I like. 958 00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:21,720 I think Mark Borg does a really good job of being like this is a 959 00:55:21,720 --> 00:55:24,400 city name and here are the vibes of this area. 960 00:55:24,720 --> 00:55:28,600 And then go make stuff. And so it's really nice to just 961 00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:32,720 be like this is, you know, this is the lowlands, this is the 962 00:55:32,720 --> 00:55:34,520 normal kind of people you might find there. 963 00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:35,880 This is the kind of stuff they do. 964 00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:39,680 And then that's it. Because as a as a forever GM, my 965 00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:43,720 favorite thing to do is to fail that myself. 966 00:55:43,720 --> 00:55:48,760 Like I would I would take like if I had like a a map of like a 967 00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,760 country for example like in the Cobalt process will do it and if 968 00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,080 they have like this city fully described in this city fully 969 00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,120 described in this city fully described I'll be like but that 970 00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:58,960 was not described so I have a name and it's a route that kind 971 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:01,240 of stuff I want and now I can make it my own. 972 00:56:01,240 --> 00:56:02,960 So that's that's it's really great. 973 00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:06,520 I think if hex crawls are are broad strokes and you know then 974 00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:08,800 like dungeon crawls and stuff are really for like the fine 975 00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:10,800 painting. And I think I think you did a 976 00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:12,520 really good job of of laying that out. 977 00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,280 And especially when you read even even before you get to the 978 00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:17,640 rule book, even just reading the lower book, you get these like 979 00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:20,600 really beautiful broad strokes through the early interest 980 00:56:20,720 --> 00:56:23,360 introduction stuff even through like the character creation 981 00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:25,960 tables and stuff like that. You really do feel like you fill 982 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:32,160 in those vibes more than like the the specificity which is 983 00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:37,600 which is really great, so. And I think a lot of that 984 00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:42,880 comfort when I I started my interest in tabletop 985 00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:46,560 role-playing games, it was 3.5 and it felt like if there wasn't 986 00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:48,560 a rule for something like I couldn't do it. 987 00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,600 Like how do I know what the monster is and and if I don't 988 00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:55,040 have a stat for it like I can't, am I going to make my own 989 00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:57,040 monster? There was so much there already 990 00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:01,480 that it felt like anything I did was going to be wrong or like 991 00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:07,520 horribly broken. So I I do think too one of the 992 00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:12,360 sort of other goals was like the the mini adventures being like a 993 00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:16,080 one shot kind of thing with like little prep like hey just pop 994 00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:19,720 this open, there's a map there's all your NPCS it. 995 00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:22,720 It's not very prescriptive on on what happens and how the players 996 00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:26,280 engage with it. But these kind of building in 997 00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:29,520 one shots and campaign play is something I really tried to 998 00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:31,240 think about. And having these sort of little 999 00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:35,600 mini modules that would be in both the setting book and the 1000 00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:40,080 the Year 1 adventure bundle and and the introductory eventually 1001 00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:42,480 being designed as a one shot. Just because I know how busy 1002 00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:46,200 people are and and just how hard it is to get a group of human 1003 00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:51,040 beings together multiple times And also again with consumption 1004 00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:53,280 everyone's buying RPGs right? So everyone has their system 1005 00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:56,720 they want to play. So just creating experiences 1006 00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:00,160 that would be self-contained and interesting within a short 1007 00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:04,520 amount of time. I mean, I really enjoy it. 1008 00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:08,680 You definitely succeeded. It's, I don't know it's a great 1009 00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:10,400 it's a great piece of content that you it's. 1010 00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:11,400 A great plan. For. 1011 00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:16,560 Us. So looking back on the 1012 00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:20,640 Kickstarter and now that Cloud Empress is for a lot of people 1013 00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:24,400 in our hands, and then it's gonna digitally start making its 1014 00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,600 way to drive through and stuff. Is there anything that you think 1015 00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:29,920 going back that you would change? 1016 00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,200 Like if you could based on the resources and everything you 1017 00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:35,440 had, knowing what you know now, would you have been like, oh, 1018 00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:37,680 like I wish I would have done X instead of Y? 1019 00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,480 Or are you pretty much like good with decisions you made along 1020 00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,720 the way? Like ideally like? 1021 00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:50,960 I'm yeah, if if one of the variables changed, right. 1022 00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:54,240 Like if time changed or money changed or those kinds of things 1023 00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:56,880 like there's some there's some space there that maybe I would 1024 00:58:56,880 --> 00:59:03,920 make some different decisions. I it was a lot to pack. 1025 00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:10,040 So did you have like? Like a multiple rooms full of 1026 00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:13,800 boxes because I mean, well, it was like you were like 20,000 1027 00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:14,680 items, right? It's like. 1028 00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:19,760 Yeah, I had five, five or six full pallets in my basement and 1029 00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:25,200 then like 5 or 6 just full shelving units full of foldable 1030 00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:29,360 boxes. So I think like one I would 1031 00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:35,320 have, I would have quoted. I think the other thing is, is 1032 00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:40,120 OK, so this is probably not what you're asking for, but I got 1033 00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:44,560 some some shipping numbers that I thought like that's a really 1034 00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:47,400 good shipping rate. Like I don't know how they're 1035 00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:48,960 going to do that, but that sounds great. 1036 00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:52,560 I would not take that number anymore like I would just I I I 1037 00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:54,840 think I'm going to use my estimates on shipping from now 1038 00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,640 on. Like this is what I think based 1039 00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:01,000 on the weight it'll reasonably ship at the other thing. 1040 01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:03,680 That I'm trying to do on future projects. 1041 01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,480 I didn't. I've never had work like 1042 01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,360 professionally edited before and so I really understand the 1043 01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:13,240 editing process in a way that I had just like no idea. 1044 01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:16,960 I I I've had some friends that were editors in like the poetry 1045 01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:19,960 world and that's just really different than the TTRPG world 1046 01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:25,400 and so my expectations for editing and and I also was not 1047 01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:27,800 planning to be the graphic designer for any of this stuff 1048 01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:32,600 so that was like a like a couple like 3 or 4 weeks before the 1049 01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:35,840 Kickstarter was supposed to go live I lost my graphic designer 1050 01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:38,920 for the project very suddenly and so I had to recreate a lot 1051 01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:40,120 of work that they did and all this stuff. 1052 01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:46,280 So all that's to say ideally I'd like to have a pretty close to 1053 01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:50,600 complete book done as I go into crowdfunding again to sort of 1054 01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:54,280 minimize those risks. Again, that takes more resources 1055 01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:56,360 and that's one of the reasons I'm so grateful that the first 1056 01:00:56,360 --> 01:01:00,600 project was a success. I the the work for the next 1057 01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:04,800 campaign is well underway. And so I already have like a lot 1058 01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:07,400 of the art assets done. I have all the graphic design 1059 01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:09,880 templates ready, the writings happening. 1060 01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:13,680 So that's like one of the big things, fulfillment is so 1061 01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:17,520 complicated and and one of the things as I mentioned earlier, 1062 01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:22,160 one of the stress points was you don't sign contracts at least I 1063 01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:25,320 don't know many people that sign contracts with folks doing 1064 01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:29,000 fulfillment or shipping. So it's a very like word of 1065 01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:31,600 mouth industry. And when you finally invoice, 1066 01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:33,280 yeah that becomes sort of a contract. 1067 01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:38,200 But folks business models and prices change in six months and 1068 01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:40,280 three months. And so I think that's one of the 1069 01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:44,680 big things if I can get to a place where with the campaign 1070 01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:47,440 I'm quoting somebody's shipping rate and we're going to ship it 1071 01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:49,200 in three months. I mean that's really different 1072 01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:52,520 than nine months in terms of what could you know, what those 1073 01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:55,400 prices could be, who I might be partnering with and working with 1074 01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:58,840 and those kinds of things. So that's something just really 1075 01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:00,600 front loading as much as possible. 1076 01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:06,360 I think one thing it does lose is somebody like in the board 1077 01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:09,440 game sphere that that I look up to it like Leader games who you 1078 01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:11,720 might be familiar with. They publish Root and Oath and 1079 01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:13,480 some really fantastic games called Whirly. 1080 01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:18,640 They really take a like participatory development route, 1081 01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:21,400 like they don't have it fully done and they work sort of with 1082 01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:24,280 audience feedback along the way. So I think that's one thing I 1083 01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:28,360 lose a little bit of is that you sort of lock into your 1084 01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:33,760 development path. Like I'm going on my gut and 1085 01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:35,840 some early feedback for what we're doing for the next 1086 01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:37,360 project. But it's not like I have a big 1087 01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:39,720 chunk of reviews that I can sort of look at and listen to. 1088 01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:47,600 But I think that that for a number of reasons solidifies 1089 01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:50,560 that positive backer experience and also makes it look just 1090 01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:54,160 more. I don't want to lose my house. 1091 01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:57,200 Like, I mean, I mean, you know, I have some business protections 1092 01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:01,920 to that, but but it's really scary to think that like 1093 01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:04,600 anything, I mean, I heard this about just applying for jobs. 1094 01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:07,880 The most important thing we have is our name and our reputation. 1095 01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:11,440 And so it's like every single time you go up for one of these 1096 01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:14,480 projects, your entire reputation and future in the industry is at 1097 01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:16,600 stake. And so that's a lot. 1098 01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:19,720 So to minimize that as much as possible. 1099 01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:23,080 And I know people you can rebuild trust and I know people 1100 01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:27,840 you know are forgiving of honest mistakes and and problems that 1101 01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:30,320 are unforeseen. But especially during the 1102 01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:34,920 pandemic with a lot of these situations where people have to 1103 01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:36,400 come back and ask for more money. 1104 01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:39,800 I mean that's just so I understand why they do it. 1105 01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:42,040 It just seems like such a horrible experience for everyone 1106 01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,400 involved and you get people saying like they're blackmailing 1107 01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:49,760 me for my game and yeah, it just like just what a bad situation 1108 01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:52,440 to be in for everyone involved. It just so I think that's the 1109 01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:55,040 big thing too. I do this because I'm passionate 1110 01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:57,640 about the art I'm making and I'm passionate about the community 1111 01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:00,640 that I participate in. So I really try to. 1112 01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:03,320 I don't want to turn into like the worst experience of my life. 1113 01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:07,800 So that I think that's the. In summary, I'm really front 1114 01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:10,280 loading a little bit more of the campaign with some of my more 1115 01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:12,800 and I have more funds than out of Commission. 1116 01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:16,440 A lot of the artwork in advance, there was maybe 20 pieces of art 1117 01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:20,800 that I still needed to do and I think the the added benefit is 1118 01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:24,440 that I can sort of keep the art team like funded over a longer 1119 01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:28,680 period of time, which is cool. Yeah, I mean so. 1120 01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:30,240 You would change nothing is what I'm kidding. 1121 01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:33,280 Yeah, nothing too big, just you just learned a lot for the next 1122 01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:36,200 one is what it sounds like. I mean, again, it, it just 1123 01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:38,680 sounds like you did just a fantastic job of managing this 1124 01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:41,040 entire project, which is really, which is really great to see 1125 01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:44,040 because it turned it into something that's absolutely 1126 01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:46,440 gorgeous, so. You know, yeah, yeah. 1127 01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:49,320 I'm really happy with that came out and you know there's little 1128 01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:56,320 things that you know really minor stuff that you know really 1129 01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:58,640 little stuff. But you know I'm I'm I I have 1130 01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:04,360 perfectionist tendencies but I'm really happy with it and and I I 1131 01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:09,040 think ultimately there's sort of a beating heart to the game that 1132 01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:13,880 I think we were able to I was able to keep or or we were able 1133 01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:16,560 to bring together through the art the graphic design and and 1134 01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:19,400 people are like getting that. It was amazing to hear. 1135 01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:25,680 There's an NPC in the setting book called Spike Head who's a 1136 01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:34,240 like, like, I mean he's a like corpse that's become a a 1137 01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:38,600 sentient fungus being and and in in our discord there there are 1138 01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:41,840 people like I love Spike Head and it was it felt like all 1139 01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:43,880 these people, Oh my gosh, Spike Head's my fave. 1140 01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:48,440 And it was so cool. It felt like meeting somebody 1141 01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:51,080 like a Co worker, knowing the same person at college, it's 1142 01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:54,720 like Oh my gosh, I I spent like 2 years with this character. 1143 01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:56,200 I spent a year and a half with this character. 1144 01:05:56,200 --> 01:05:59,120 Like, you know them too and and that's the the really cool thing 1145 01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:05,240 about building setting books in particulars is this like shared 1146 01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:08,040 universe and this shared, I don't know. 1147 01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:10,920 And and people like picking up on some of the stuff that I was 1148 01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:11,640 trying. I don't know. 1149 01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:13,720 It's just like, oh you found this character endearing. 1150 01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:15,360 Like I found them very endearing as well. 1151 01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:18,000 Like, that's awesome that that we're having that shared 1152 01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:21,480 experience, that that stuff's really amazing to me. 1153 01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:25,800 Yeah, I was describing this to Ryan and somebody else was like, 1154 01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:28,840 there's like this, this. The project has really great 1155 01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:30,120 bones to it. You know what? 1156 01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:34,080 There's this really amazing foundation of something like 1157 01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:35,800 genuinely meaningful as like a table. 1158 01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:39,480 Like, I'm very excited to sit down and actually play this with 1159 01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:42,320 my table. If I could ever get three adults 1160 01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:46,760 to sit down in the same room with me, you know, three adults 1161 01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:53,040 that live with me but very stoked for it and for, like, 1162 01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:57,160 future stuff. Well that's big is is there's 1163 01:06:57,160 --> 01:07:00,560 there's it's fantastic to see someone make something and then 1164 01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:04,120 be like yes, you're going to get more because like it. 1165 01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:07,440 You know a lot of people make a lot of like games and then make 1166 01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:08,960 another game and then make another game because they love 1167 01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:11,480 making games. But I it's really enjoyable and 1168 01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:14,280 we've seen it more lately where people make something fantastic 1169 01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:16,880 and go yes, like I like this is what I'm doing. 1170 01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:18,440 You'll get more of this. I enjoy this. 1171 01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:20,280 This is what you get. So the fact that we're getting 1172 01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:22,520 more of it, so like what what You've talked a little bit about 1173 01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:26,200 what's on the horizon specifically are you, are you, 1174 01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:28,600 could you talk about like what, what, what, what's coming next? 1175 01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:32,880 Yeah. So again, with front loading in 1176 01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:38,400 mind, I'm trying to let the pace of our work and what we can 1177 01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:41,040 complete sort of dictate when that project will show up. 1178 01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:44,960 But ideally, Spring 2024 we'll have the next Kickstarter 1179 01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:49,360 campaign we'll be announcing. So now that people are getting I 1180 01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:52,080 find people are find it obnoxious when you're announcing 1181 01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:53,800 projects when not everyone has their games in hand. 1182 01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:56,160 So we'll be doing more formal announcements over the next 1183 01:07:56,160 --> 01:08:00,320 couple months, but there will be two new setting books, one 1184 01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:02,560 called The Land of the Living and the other called The Land of 1185 01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:08,800 the Dead. One is a overgrown Spore Garden 1186 01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:15,320 setting and the other is a ashen Wasteland that that we sort of 1187 01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:18,960 teased and then had to remove from the original Kickstarter 1188 01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:20,840 due to space. So that'll be making its 1189 01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:25,680 appearance. So those are planned for spring 1190 01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:30,040 with some additional like books. One of the things I'm I'm, I 1191 01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:34,560 don't know how it'll figure into the project but Christian Meek 1192 01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:38,920 Castle who you've mentioned kind of got me under the idea of of 1193 01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:44,600 making the newsletter releasing sort of an annual Cloud Empress 1194 01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:48,120 newsletter publication. So all of the the expansion 1195 01:08:48,120 --> 01:08:51,520 content, the monthly expansion newsletter content will show up 1196 01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:53,319 in some form in some way. Yeah there you go. 1197 01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:56,000 So that's the idea with. Minds in the mail. 1198 01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:59,200 If you if you look at the newsletter, it it's already sort 1199 01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:00,640 of in layout. It's not perfect. 1200 01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:02,640 We need to do proofreading and some other stuff. 1201 01:09:03,479 --> 01:09:06,359 But designing these expansions one month at a time with the 1202 01:09:06,359 --> 01:09:12,840 idea of one of the things I'm really keen on is making the 1203 01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:17,439 print experience the core of what what I'm doing. 1204 01:09:17,840 --> 01:09:20,600 So really trying to to have things that are released 1205 01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:24,479 digitally also come in to print because of the tactile 1206 01:09:24,479 --> 01:09:30,200 experience and and I think people like I don't know, people 1207 01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:33,399 like books, I like books. So that's sort of the. 1208 01:09:33,479 --> 01:09:35,840 The core experience. I'm not a fan, you know, I don't 1209 01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:41,279 really like. That much so the the other yeah 1210 01:09:41,279 --> 01:09:43,520 cool piece and then there'll be this sort of introductory 1211 01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:45,640 adventure I'm writing. So I don't know how that'll all 1212 01:09:46,319 --> 01:09:49,479 come together into AI, don't know what pieces they'll go 1213 01:09:49,479 --> 01:09:52,439 where and and how the the crowdfunding stuff has to come 1214 01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:55,560 together for for a like overall product and pledge level. 1215 01:09:55,560 --> 01:10:01,560 But that's sort of the the idea for spring of 2024 and again I 1216 01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:06,360 think I've shared in some places it's it's frustrating and really 1217 01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:08,720 enjoyable. I think I have like maybe five 1218 01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:11,760 years of content sort of planned in different book forms and 1219 01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:18,520 there's some thoughtfulness I I'm trying not to do JJ Abrams 1220 01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:21,240 like mystery box on everything. So there is there's like a lot 1221 01:10:21,240 --> 01:10:25,280 of if there is a mystery that you sort of pick up on in many 1222 01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:29,040 cases, I want to try to introduce maybe not the answer, 1223 01:10:29,040 --> 01:10:31,800 but a a space to play in those mysteries that are sort of 1224 01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:34,760 pointed at in the current releases. 1225 01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:39,720 This might be too forward thinking because the project 1226 01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:46,000 just came out. Do you have any like desire or 1227 01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:49,360 do you see any space for there to be like a cloud Empress like 1228 01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:53,680 second edition or whatever where it like where it expands upon 1229 01:10:53,680 --> 01:11:01,600 itself within the rules? Yes, I think I'm, I'm a future 1230 01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:02,440 thinker. Right. 1231 01:11:02,440 --> 01:11:07,800 So what does Cloud Empress look like in 10 years is something I 1232 01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:11,600 think about who knows what planet Earth will be like in 10 1233 01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:18,040 years, But I think that's what successful RPGs do. 1234 01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:25,360 They update editions every, I don't know what, 710 years, 1235 01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:30,280 something like that. I think there needs to be a good 1236 01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:35,040 reason for that. So I I have thought about, I 1237 01:11:35,040 --> 01:11:38,040 think Mothership is is really the model that I'm working 1238 01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:42,920 under. So Mothership started with with 1239 01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:46,760 a free rule book, right? A free rule book that you could 1240 01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:51,200 get and and staple bound scenes and and that kind of stuff. 1241 01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:53,680 So I'd love to see at some point like a box set. 1242 01:11:54,440 --> 01:11:59,320 I don't know, I was like I think it's too weird to go on to 1243 01:11:59,320 --> 01:12:02,440 Target or like you know mass retail or something like that. 1244 01:12:02,440 --> 01:12:06,080 But I'd love to see like a box set to try to capture a more new 1245 01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:09,000 player friendly experience and maybe there could be pre gens 1246 01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:12,560 and those kinds of things. One thing I am really keen on 1247 01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:19,640 though and and really mindful of is I am really frustrated when 1248 01:12:21,560 --> 01:12:23,200 additions are too close together. 1249 01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:25,920 So when somebody comes out with something, I really like it. 1250 01:12:25,920 --> 01:12:29,880 And then I'll give you an example from the board game 1251 01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:31,760 world. There's this new board game 1252 01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:35,800 called Doom Uprising. So Dune Imperium is a really fun 1253 01:12:35,800 --> 01:12:37,240 game. There's a bunch of expansions 1254 01:12:37,240 --> 01:12:40,040 and they release Dune Uprising and it has. 1255 01:12:40,080 --> 01:12:43,920 It's sort of like a it people feel like it's a 1.52 edition 1256 01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:46,440 for a game people have already spent a lot of money on. 1257 01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:49,280 As time's coming out, it's it seems like it is more of a 1258 01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:53,800 different gameplay experience, but I think it gets back to that 1259 01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:59,960 like trust and thoughtfulness about where people's money go 1260 01:13:00,480 --> 01:13:04,120 goes like I don't want to be releasing something that I know 1261 01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:06,680 is going to become obsolete in like 2 years, right? 1262 01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:11,120 I mean, who knows what the future brings, But I'm always 1263 01:13:11,120 --> 01:13:13,200 looking at like how to make play easier. 1264 01:13:15,120 --> 01:13:19,960 And the other piece too is I know Sean McCoy and and Tuesday 1265 01:13:19,960 --> 01:13:25,560 night games they have larger plans for like mothership as a 1266 01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:30,280 from what I understand shaping that in to be more of a setting 1267 01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:34,360 that that has some kind of semblance across products. 1268 01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:36,080 I don't know what that will look like. 1269 01:13:36,080 --> 01:13:40,640 I know they're talking about the panic engine as a way to expand 1270 01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:46,600 the D100 panic system with with their own lines and stuff like 1271 01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:49,400 that. So I don't know if Cloud Empress 1272 01:13:49,400 --> 01:13:52,520 will always always be like Mothership. 1273 01:13:53,360 --> 01:13:57,840 I don't know you know they I TKG has the keys to some of the 1274 01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:01,280 things that the the brand you know some of the like licensing 1275 01:14:01,520 --> 01:14:05,240 is TKG related. And so I don't know how that'll 1276 01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:08,600 all develop and and that could potentially necessitate some 1277 01:14:08,600 --> 01:14:11,960 changes in terms of like what things are called or look like. 1278 01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:14,480 So those are. I don't know. 1279 01:14:14,480 --> 01:14:19,480 I I I think if a game is successful I think it it one 1280 01:14:19,480 --> 01:14:25,960 should plan on having future editions to improve content and 1281 01:14:25,960 --> 01:14:33,840 and but the other thing I'll say is maybe this is like I don't 1282 01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:35,160 know. I don't know how this sounds but 1283 01:14:35,240 --> 01:14:38,680 one of the things I think about is like releasing a lot of a lot 1284 01:14:38,680 --> 01:14:42,400 of books like a ton of books but then not having this expectation 1285 01:14:42,400 --> 01:14:43,800 of keeping them in print forever. 1286 01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:46,160 I think digitally making them available. 1287 01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:49,560 But also just like exploring projects with a lot of different 1288 01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:52,360 creators and not feeling the pressure to create like this 1289 01:14:52,360 --> 01:14:56,400 product line that's like 50 books that I need to print every 1290 01:14:56,400 --> 01:14:58,200 couple years, right. So I think that's the other 1291 01:14:58,200 --> 01:15:02,600 thing they think about is making a really wide product line and 1292 01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:05,560 keeping you know some books always in print that are sort of 1293 01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:09,560 part of this core experience. But then maybe like print on 1294 01:15:09,560 --> 01:15:12,160 demand or print at home or those kinds of things for some of the 1295 01:15:12,160 --> 01:15:15,200 supplemental products that could be more seasonal or or just sort 1296 01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:17,960 of a A1 time release thing that makes some of these crowdfunding 1297 01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:19,360 campaigns a little bit more exciting. 1298 01:15:19,880 --> 01:15:23,640 Yeah, I I love that stuff. I love when you find something 1299 01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:26,240 that only had like a hundred, a hundred of them printed or 1300 01:15:26,240 --> 01:15:29,000 something like that. Like there's like a feeling 1301 01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:31,240 like, I don't know. To me, I mean, I have a whole 1302 01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:34,760 shelf of that stuff here, but like to me it feels like got 1303 01:15:34,760 --> 01:15:36,720 like an artifact of the game, you know what I mean? 1304 01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:39,920 And it feels like a really important piece when it's not 1305 01:15:39,920 --> 01:15:41,920 something that I could just go to Target and pick up or 1306 01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:44,120 whatever. So I really love those kind of 1307 01:15:44,120 --> 01:15:46,680 releases, so that would be really neat. 1308 01:15:47,440 --> 01:15:49,680 My whole thing is we just want more cloud, Empress so. 1309 01:15:52,040 --> 01:15:55,120 Well and you talked about the free book too like so you So 1310 01:15:55,120 --> 01:15:58,840 what all of cloud Empress is going to be free online and kind 1311 01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:01,400 of like what is your we we've kind of talked around it a 1312 01:16:01,400 --> 01:16:04,600 bunch, but like why specifically have you decided to make the 1313 01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:07,800 parts of it just available for everyone that you that you that 1314 01:16:07,800 --> 01:16:12,960 you are? The the easy answer is that 1315 01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:15,560 Mothership had a ton of success making their role look free. 1316 01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:19,680 So that's like the first thing is, is me observing my peers who 1317 01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:22,560 are a little bit down the road, who have been really successful. 1318 01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:27,960 The why do I think it's a good idea. 1319 01:16:28,480 --> 01:16:35,600 It's not just an imitation. The first thing is existing in a 1320 01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:40,480 world with piracy. The the gameplay experience too. 1321 01:16:40,480 --> 01:16:44,560 I think it's really helpful for having like players around the 1322 01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:48,520 table all have a copy of this, whether that's APDF, whether 1323 01:16:48,520 --> 01:16:52,440 that's a a print on your printer, whether that's buying a 1324 01:16:52,440 --> 01:16:55,240 print copy, depending on what kind of experience you want to 1325 01:16:55,240 --> 01:16:57,160 have. The other thing I think about is 1326 01:16:58,720 --> 01:17:03,560 cloud and persist. You know I'm we're creator we 1327 01:17:03,560 --> 01:17:06,520 have a lot of the team is is we're creators and and 1328 01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:10,360 marginalized folks and so making a product that's financially 1329 01:17:10,360 --> 01:17:15,840 accessible to everyone but also trying to think about the so not 1330 01:17:15,840 --> 01:17:18,640 everything's free right But a lot of it the introductory 1331 01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:23,240 adventure and the the the rule book are free as a way to just 1332 01:17:23,240 --> 01:17:26,640 make it accessible to a lot of different folks felt important 1333 01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:34,280 to me and and not RPGs are like luxury items so but they they 1334 01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:39,400 speak to experiences that are really vital to humanity I think 1335 01:17:39,400 --> 01:17:46,040 and I think play is is really vital to surviving the 1336 01:17:46,040 --> 01:17:50,320 difficulties we face on an everyday basis and existentially 1337 01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:52,240 as human beings. So I I don't I wouldn't want to 1338 01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:55,680 like deprive that of folks on if I can play some part in that. 1339 01:17:58,280 --> 01:18:01,000 So I think that's the I mean and then I think the other piece 1340 01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:06,000 just from I I always hate to go to this place too but well maybe 1341 01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:08,360 it's not so negative. I mean part of it is a financial 1342 01:18:08,360 --> 01:18:14,240 decision in that Sean had me on his newsletter before the 1343 01:18:14,240 --> 01:18:18,920 Kickstarter campaign went on and we talked a little bit about how 1344 01:18:18,920 --> 01:18:21,600 consoles will sell their you know, they'll lose $50 on a 1345 01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:25,040 console because you're hopefully helping someone see the benefit 1346 01:18:25,040 --> 01:18:28,840 or the the joy of having this system in their lives or so I 1347 01:18:28,840 --> 01:18:29,880 think they're called loss leaders. 1348 01:18:29,880 --> 01:18:33,400 So that's the other piece too is that someone might grab the book 1349 01:18:33,480 --> 01:18:36,000 and then purchase some of the supplemental products if they 1350 01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:40,560 want to support me and you know try things out. 1351 01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:48,160 I think the other piece too is my hope is I really want to help 1352 01:18:48,160 --> 01:18:52,840 people create realistic expectations about what I'm 1353 01:18:52,840 --> 01:18:55,680 doing so they can pop this open and see what it's like. 1354 01:18:56,280 --> 01:19:00,400 And if the writing style, if the vibe is, is what they're looking 1355 01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:05,560 for, if the the rules are are kind of there, yeah, then they 1356 01:19:05,560 --> 01:19:07,280 they might enjoy some of the other content. 1357 01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:10,320 But if they don't like it, then they don't have to like invest 1358 01:19:10,320 --> 01:19:13,120 their money in that or or participate in a crowdfunding 1359 01:19:13,120 --> 01:19:17,120 campaign, something like that. Yeah, I mean, I think that's 1360 01:19:17,120 --> 01:19:21,440 such a good idea when again, as someone who backs a ton of 1361 01:19:21,440 --> 01:19:24,920 crowdfunding projects and also is in the space and all the 1362 01:19:24,920 --> 01:19:27,600 social medias and stuff, a lot of the projects that I see 1363 01:19:28,600 --> 01:19:32,480 really successful are ones that do put out stuff that you can 1364 01:19:32,480 --> 01:19:35,280 see beforehand. If I know nothing about your 1365 01:19:35,280 --> 01:19:38,240 game, I'm less likely. But if there's like a free quick 1366 01:19:38,240 --> 01:19:41,160 start or a free roll book or an Ash can or something like that 1367 01:19:41,160 --> 01:19:43,400 where I'm like, oh, this part intrigues me, that part 1368 01:19:43,400 --> 01:19:45,560 intrigues me. Like I'm definitely much more 1369 01:19:45,560 --> 01:19:51,240 likely to to buy in on it. So even just from the financial 1370 01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:53,960 standpoint, I think it makes so much sense to just be like here 1371 01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:59,720 is the rule book but also here's like 8 adventures too is a great 1372 01:19:59,720 --> 01:20:01,760 piece. But even yeah, like you said, 1373 01:20:01,760 --> 01:20:04,120 it's basically like having a permanent community copies up 1374 01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:06,200 that they do on it. And it's really nice for those 1375 01:20:06,200 --> 01:20:08,200 people that might not be able to afford it but want to play it, 1376 01:20:08,400 --> 01:20:10,440 but might be able to maybe afford one of the adventures 1377 01:20:10,440 --> 01:20:12,720 later or this or that to be able to have that access to it, which 1378 01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:15,560 is fantastic and it just feels like it fits into your. 1379 01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:20,480 Your corporate brand, to just be like a nice person who wants to 1380 01:20:21,160 --> 01:20:24,720 to have people have great experiences so you know it's 1381 01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:27,600 it's all around. I don't know what to say. 1382 01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:30,000 Besides a good job like this is one of the most positive 1383 01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:32,880 experiences with the Kickstarter that I've had absolutely 1384 01:20:33,520 --> 01:20:36,680 including like how much I enjoy the game too and I just like all 1385 01:20:36,680 --> 01:20:38,640 the like the back end stuff and like the production stuff. 1386 01:20:38,640 --> 01:20:40,960 So I I think you did an absolutely fantastic job and I 1387 01:20:40,960 --> 01:20:43,200 would definitely encourage people that want to do 1388 01:20:43,200 --> 01:20:47,080 Kickstarters and and projects to really look to cloud. 1389 01:20:47,080 --> 01:20:51,360 Inverse is like a a good example of like what to what to strive 1390 01:20:51,360 --> 01:20:54,480 for. Yeah, and I I mean, if there are 1391 01:20:54,480 --> 01:20:58,840 folks out there who are thinking about crowdfunding something, I 1392 01:20:58,840 --> 01:21:02,280 mean, reach out to me. I don't know. 1393 01:21:02,280 --> 01:21:04,480 I don't know how much advice and help I can give, but I'm, I'm 1394 01:21:04,480 --> 01:21:07,280 always happy to talk to other creators about the work they're 1395 01:21:07,280 --> 01:21:10,680 doing. And yeah, I don't know. 1396 01:21:10,680 --> 01:21:12,600 And there's a lot of free resources out there. 1397 01:21:12,880 --> 01:21:16,800 Like I said, Jamie Stegmeyer from Stonemeyer Games really 1398 01:21:17,200 --> 01:21:20,160 wrote the book on on crowdfunding board games, and 1399 01:21:20,680 --> 01:21:22,520 they're not doing crowdfunding campaigns anymore. 1400 01:21:22,520 --> 01:21:25,240 But I think a lot of their their resources are still very 1401 01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:31,040 relevant. So Speaking of the the free rule 1402 01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:34,240 book, like where can people actually find like the rule book 1403 01:21:34,240 --> 01:21:36,600 and any of the updates for like their stuff that's coming out 1404 01:21:36,600 --> 01:21:38,680 and and and all the rest of that, like where can people 1405 01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:41,840 actually get Cloud Empress now or in the near future? 1406 01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:46,200 The easiest place to probably remember off hand is Cloud 1407 01:21:46,200 --> 01:21:52,640 empress.com that has a collection of of what books are 1408 01:21:52,640 --> 01:21:55,080 out. It has digital resources. 1409 01:21:55,520 --> 01:22:00,000 We're also I'll just make a quick plug for four more days, 1410 01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:02,400 December 15th. Apologies if you're not 1411 01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:04,480 listening to this. You know, if you're listening to 1412 01:22:04,480 --> 01:22:08,520 this later but we're doing a one of the stretch goals from the 1413 01:22:08,520 --> 01:22:11,920 project was to create a cloud Empress creators grant. 1414 01:22:11,920 --> 01:22:16,840 So we're giving away, you know, moderately small amount of money 1415 01:22:16,840 --> 01:22:21,120 but but money that I think would really help some creators create 1416 01:22:21,200 --> 01:22:23,600 something in the cloud Empress universe that they can then 1417 01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:25,560 monetize or do whatever they want with. 1418 01:22:25,560 --> 01:22:28,560 It's just sort of a fund to help support their labor or or 1419 01:22:28,560 --> 01:22:31,480 create, you know purchase artwork, those kinds of things. 1420 01:22:31,480 --> 01:22:33,960 So that information is on there and that's something I'm hoping 1421 01:22:33,960 --> 01:22:36,880 to do on a recurring basis depending on future crowdfunding 1422 01:22:36,880 --> 01:22:40,800 success. So cloud empress.com, all of the 1423 01:22:40,840 --> 01:22:43,600 the digital files. I think my current plan is that 1424 01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:46,920 they'll be available on Drive through RPG, although if you buy 1425 01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:52,400 the physical books from a number of planning on retail dropping 1426 01:22:52,400 --> 01:22:56,200 around January, February, ideally most of those will also 1427 01:22:56,200 --> 01:22:57,560 come with the digital files as well. 1428 01:22:57,560 --> 01:23:02,040 But if you're looking for the something right now the rule 1429 01:23:02,040 --> 01:23:06,240 books free on drive through RPG as well as the the introductory 1430 01:23:06,240 --> 01:23:08,960 Adventure and then you can purchase the setting book and 1431 01:23:08,960 --> 01:23:10,360 the year 1 adventure bundle there. 1432 01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:14,840 Highly recommend. I mean I guess the the other 1433 01:23:14,840 --> 01:23:17,920 piece is the the sub stack I mentioned but you can subscribe. 1434 01:23:18,200 --> 01:23:22,200 I'm on sub stack but you can also subscribe to my newsletter 1435 01:23:22,280 --> 01:23:24,480 on the cloud empress.com website. 1436 01:23:24,680 --> 01:23:28,440 But as I mentioned I try to do like a one to two page spread 1437 01:23:28,440 --> 01:23:32,520 every month with free expansion content with with artwork and 1438 01:23:32,520 --> 01:23:35,000 and try to make it look pretty polished and exciting for folks. 1439 01:23:36,960 --> 01:23:40,200 I'm I'm definitely excited for the the future annual cause 1440 01:23:40,200 --> 01:23:44,120 Christian did a fantastic job at this and I I I can I can see why 1441 01:23:44,120 --> 01:23:49,720 he really encouraged you to to do one of your own it's a it's a 1442 01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:54,520 cool little piece of of of bits and bobs and it's nice to have 1443 01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:55,840 something like that at the table so. 1444 01:23:57,240 --> 01:24:00,480 Yeah and there's so many newsletters right now and and 1445 01:24:02,120 --> 01:24:07,880 you know I and and it's it's how do we make it worth your while 1446 01:24:07,880 --> 01:24:11,080 to to listen and to stay informed and those kinds of 1447 01:24:11,080 --> 01:24:15,560 things and and I I think it's cool for me just people ask me 1448 01:24:15,560 --> 01:24:19,200 questions I got some questions and there's a cloud Empress 1449 01:24:19,200 --> 01:24:22,640 Discord that I I post about sometimes or you can reach out 1450 01:24:22,640 --> 01:24:25,160 to me if if you'd like to be on it where we develop the game a 1451 01:24:25,160 --> 01:24:26,640 little bit further but people are asking me all these 1452 01:24:26,640 --> 01:24:28,760 questions about being a wanderling which is the ghost. 1453 01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:30,800 You know what happens when you die and you're a ghost? 1454 01:24:30,800 --> 01:24:33,840 Like it's just sort of a reference and I thought Oh well, 1455 01:24:33,920 --> 01:24:35,440 maybe people want a little bit more there. 1456 01:24:35,440 --> 01:24:38,720 So I wrote a two page expansion on that for for how to be a 1457 01:24:38,720 --> 01:24:42,160 ghost. So stuff like that is, is ways 1458 01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:45,960 to fill in the gaps or or questions that I, you know, 1459 01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:48,200 didn't have. A lot of what these books are 1460 01:24:48,200 --> 01:24:51,680 are really defined by. I mean they're both at the the 1461 01:24:51,920 --> 01:24:54,360 rule book and the setting book are both at their sixty page 1462 01:24:54,360 --> 01:24:56,960 limit for the printer. So there's a lot I couldn't fit 1463 01:24:56,960 --> 01:24:59,040 in there that I get to play around with in the newsletter. 1464 01:24:59,560 --> 01:25:01,640 Very cool. Yeah, very cool. 1465 01:25:02,480 --> 01:25:05,080 Again, we're just more excited for more and we've talked about 1466 01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:07,640 this a bunch. We are gonna be reviewing Cloud 1467 01:25:07,640 --> 01:25:09,680 Empress in January, so you'll get more cloud efforts here on 1468 01:25:09,680 --> 01:25:11,240 the show. Running it again. 1469 01:25:11,240 --> 01:25:13,200 It's a fun game. It'll probably be the game we 1470 01:25:13,200 --> 01:25:15,040 cover. Like we said, probably the game 1471 01:25:15,040 --> 01:25:16,680 we covered the most since the beginning of the show by the 1472 01:25:16,680 --> 01:25:18,800 time we finished. So it's really great. 1473 01:25:20,600 --> 01:25:23,960 Quick giveaway winner. We're going to pick that and 1474 01:25:23,960 --> 01:25:27,080 it's odds and ints. Yeah, odds and ints. 1475 01:25:27,240 --> 01:25:30,080 I think a late addition to the giveaway here. 1476 01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:33,240 Do me a solid. Either you just mentioned on 1477 01:25:33,240 --> 01:25:39,200 Discord or whisper me your how to mail stuff to you and we'll 1478 01:25:39,200 --> 01:25:41,040 get that sent out to you. But what? 1479 01:25:41,040 --> 01:25:43,840 Thank you so much for coming on. It is fantastic to hear. 1480 01:25:44,080 --> 01:25:46,480 Yeah, not just about Cladamus too, but honestly, just like the 1481 01:25:46,480 --> 01:25:48,120 back end of Kickstarter, you had so much. 1482 01:25:49,160 --> 01:25:50,880 Yeah, you're protected the way the project went. 1483 01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:53,040 Really interesting this is. A Really. 1484 01:25:53,040 --> 01:25:56,080 I'm new to this all and and I've I've so I hope I haven't steered 1485 01:25:56,080 --> 01:25:59,360 anyone in the wrong direction. But those are just kind of the 1486 01:25:59,360 --> 01:26:02,680 guiding principles I brought to this this first campaign and I'm 1487 01:26:02,680 --> 01:26:05,840 hoping they don't all prove to be like treacherous false 1488 01:26:05,840 --> 01:26:08,040 decisions or wrong ends for the next one. 1489 01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:11,240 Oh no, actually that's horrible. Don't do it that way. 1490 01:26:12,120 --> 01:26:15,520 Yeah, I mean we'll see and and and next time something comes 1491 01:26:15,520 --> 01:26:16,920 out, I'm sure we'll talk about that as well. 1492 01:26:17,240 --> 01:26:19,680 But awesome. Again, seriously, thank you so 1493 01:26:19,680 --> 01:26:20,880 much for being here. Thanks for. 1494 01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:23,040 Having me and. Thank you everyone in chat for 1495 01:26:23,040 --> 01:26:25,240 being here as well. We will try to make sure we get 1496 01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:28,240 this episode out in time so that we can hear about the creator 1497 01:26:28,240 --> 01:26:30,920 Grant, or get some people that might not have heard about that 1498 01:26:30,920 --> 01:26:32,520 and which is also fantastic, by the way. 1499 01:26:32,520 --> 01:26:34,160 That's so cool that you're doing that. 1500 01:26:35,720 --> 01:26:37,120 Yeah, That is our episode for tonight. 1501 01:26:37,120 --> 01:26:38,400 Once again, thank you. Thank you for being here. 1502 01:26:38,400 --> 01:26:39,840 And we'll talk to you all later. Bye.