Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll podcast.
My Name Is Ryan. And I'm a giant cicada with the
face of an old man. And I'm what?
And today obviously we are talking about cloud.
Empress, what has been on the show before.
It's great to have you back. Thank you so much.
Great to be back, Yeah. Yeah.
So Cloud Empress, it's in people's hands now.
How does that feel? It's it's really exciting.
I didn't fully realize how much stuff was going to be packed
together. Obviously I made mock ups and I
committed to doing certain things, but I I hand assembled
most of the games or all of them.
So putting them together and kind of making this little
bundle it it it felt really exciting and and just to see it
all sort of spread out on the table and in people's social
media posts and all that kind of stuff is has been really
exciting and gratifying and just kind of a dream to come true,
yeah. Yeah, the project turned out.
I mean, really incredibly impressive.
I mean, it's like, it is like a really good amount.
Like I'm still pulling stuff of stuff and it looks beautiful.
I mean it. It really is very beautiful.
Thank you. Yeah.
The original sort of concepts for the first Kickstarter, as I
was envisioning it, was really trying to outdo myself on the
first campaign at least. And really it's hard to say that
you have an expansive world without having an expansive
product, at least at 1st. And so this was sort of it.
I felt like I had to go big with the first Kickstarter campaign
in the first set of materials because I wanted to evoke a
larger setting, not just sort of a set of locations, but but an
entire world in a single crowdfunding campaign, which
which certainly was a challenge. But I think the multiple
materials and the hex crawl and and just sort of the allusions
to other larger world elements I think made me at least feel
successful in that regard. Yeah, I I I think absolutely.
It was done fantastically and we, you know, we kind of just
jumped in here. For those listening who might
not know, would you mind telling us what Cloud Empress is?
Sure. So Cloud Empress is a ecological
science fantasy RPG setting for Mothership 1 E the science
fiction horror RPG. And it's heavily inspired by
some of the the key touch points and genre touch points are
Nausicaa in the Valley of the Wind by Hayao Miyazaki, Full
Metal Alchemist, and Dune. So those are sort of the three
largest influences, although there's quite a few others in
there as well. But those are sort of the touch
points in some of the genre tropes I tried to pull on to
ground players in in some kind of reality that they would
understand. So it's it's far, far, far from
in the future of our, you know, our society or even maybe where
mothership is at. But it also carries these sort
of ecological overtones and and really ideally like a
thoughtfulness around the ecosystems at play in this in
this space. And really trying to ground the
players in a world that doesn't necessarily really care about
them. And they're sort of sort of
surviving and adventuring and moving through a world that has
its own rules that aren't necessarily governed by, I guess
I should say they're governed by giant magical cicadas.
So that's the other sort of big draw where Gnostica has the sort
of giant ohm and Dune has the sand worms I tried to draw on
some of my Midwestern heritage and and the 17 years cicadas
that we experience and and different cicadas, broods.
And so these are some giant cicadas with these sort of
unnerving stone human faces on their Chitan armor, which are
kind of a mystery in the setting.
And also a little creepy, yeah? Just a little bit.
Just a little bit, yeah. And then kind of speaking about
the bundle, because I forgot already, we're doing a giveaway
tonight. So what was kind enough to send
us an entire extra deluxe bundle edition and that includes all
the bits and pieces which we would talk about this a little
bit more on stream. But like the the elevation of
like the whole set with like the art cards, the bingo card, the
the player handouts to kind of do the GM screen and even this
like the thank you card is just such a nice touch.
That was wonderful. But we'll be giving away one of
these entire things to somebody in chat.
So let me actually turn that on. Good luck.
Yeah, Good luck, Ozo. There you go.
And all you have to do is hit exclamation point cloud to be
interred if you're a sub. I fixed it this time so you'll
actually get two or you should, I hope entries and then we'll
draw it at the end. I was going to say continental
United States only but we'll see about the cost of shipping, but
we'll kind of take it from there.
So feel free to hit exclamation point cloud and then we'll we'll
keep going here. So I think we talked about this
before and stream like for this episode to really kind of like
do like a how the sausage is made episode as far as like you
know Cloud Empress when it started to hear.
So I guess my first question is, well, I guess this is like the
fifth one by now. When when did you actually start
working on Cloud Empress? It was like a setting as as a
world that you want to do separate.
Because I know you've put out mothership like other mothership
stuff. But when did you say, all right,
I want to make my own thing and then start going from there.
The original gestation of Cloud Empress started right around
midpoint of my last crowdfunding campaign, Hot Stuff on Shore
Leave, which is a shore leave module that's meant to be played
by players sort of away from their group.
In in a mothership campaign where you sort of explore hot
stuff and hookups on this polluted island that has these
beautiful sunsets that are all from the the hot sauce burning
people's eyes and the and the the sky.
But the concept came from this idea of making a World War 2
inspired mothership setting. I think for me, World War 2
weaponry is fairly culturally evocative, but I think it also
engages in this area of play that I think is particularly
interesting where you can express the brutality of war and
of gun violence, but it's not. There's still some gamification
that can happen and and some actual play that can happen.
Whereas I I think for me personally modern weaponry is is
just so powerful and horrible that it it and I know you all
have strong opinions on guns in in role-playing games right.
But at least in in what kind of play experiences they make.
But I mean drone bombing is, you know, there's just not a lot of,
you know, and I'm not saying gun violence is fun by any means and
and a lot of cloud Empress sort of directly engages with the
topic. But there's still some space for
play, I think around ranged weaponry that that I wanted to
explore. And also I was listening to the
Revolutions podcast on the Russian Russian Revolution and
all sorts of stuff so that there's some sort of like
Russian Revolution overtones and stuff like that.
So the original title that that sort of got me excited was
Mother Loaf. It was the sort of idea about
like bread and mothership and trying to bring it into a World
War 2 technology, 1940s, nineteen 50s technology setting
and sort of started to explore that idea.
What wasn't entirely sure if it was going to be a historical
setting or just one planet that had sort of maybe become a
backwater or sort of trapped. You know people trapped in this
sort of setting started to explore that.
But one of the things that I'm really keen on, I I think about
the games I design on and the the books that I make really
from a an artistic standpoint but also from a product design
standpoint. And so assessing what the visual
impact of a book is going to be is very important to me.
One of the the big things that I try to do with with the books I
make I try to go for a unique. I think that's one of the things
that I most love about Mothership as a setting.
It's it's a really unique looking book.
It it's sort of and I think you all have talked about sort of
shed some of the Polish that other RPGs might have for for
uniqueness. And I think it really creates
something that's really exciting to me.
Whereas some of the loose oil painting kind of concept art
look that you see in a lot of role-playing games.
I mean certainly can be done really well but it's hard to
distinguish one book from another at a certain point.
So you I can say this piece is amazing.
It looks great but I'm not really sure what book it's from
and so that's one of the the strong components of the designs
I work on. I I try to have every single
piece of art one. Be immediately identifiable as
the setting and two really try to encapsulate most of the
settings complexities and dynamics in it.
So one of the things with the art pieces, usually there's some
sort of ecological component as well as some fantasy element as
well as some technology in there.
So just the sort of combination of different things to really
sell hey this is every you know every piece of art and the art
direction really pointing to this larger world.
So founded art team in Catapulka who Peabida and Guerin are the
two artists and and started working with them and helping
develop this visual language. And so we took it more in a a
fantasy direction and a farther future direction.
More of the science fiction element along the way, which
turned out to be a blessing in disguise.
Tuesday Night Games made a role that you can't have mother in
your title for a third party supplement for a number of
reasons. A lot of people were starting to
do it and I wasn't there were two or three already sort of
proposed and so I had to switch the name which I thought was
horrible because I'd already gotten like 302 hundred
followers and and people were liking my stuff already and but
ended up being really good and and I did some audience
engagement around some different name titles and and settled on
Cloud Empress and that actually was cloud the character is is
both on the cover but then ended up becoming a major figure in
both the the setting and as well as the setting book and so that
was something that really evolved out of the title itself
which I was really happy about and and so that was all in June
2022 maybe May 2022 somewhere around there and then started
gearing up for a January crowdfunding campaign.
Yeah, I mean, and the campaign did OK, what it it it almost hit
a. 100. $1000 You know it was like 98 K So how, how both like
exciting and daunting was it to have like 2000 plus backers on
your first Kickstarter? It it was mostly just exciting
one of the things another I I I have some project management
experience in my my work life and with crowdfunding campaigns.
As as people will tell you you're managing risk all over
the place and that the two ways that you can do that are 1 front
loading risk. So putting a lot of your own
resources into a campaign and completing a lot of the game
ahead of time. So the the obvious risk then is
that if it's the campaign's not successful, you won't make that
money back or you might not have a successful project or you can
put the risk on the tail end where you have a great idea and
maybe a limited amount of art assets, limited amount of game
design. So you haven't put a lot of
investment on the the front end. And then you're sort of taking
that risk on the project management back end where you're
sort of putting the game together and those kinds of
things. So I tried to do a lot of work
on the front end with the graphic design, with the art,
with those kinds of things ahead of time.
So there was a lot of my previous campaign, hot stuff on
Charlie, if it did maybe $1500, something like that.
So it was. I learned a lot from that
campaign around fulfillment, around pricing, around building
a package that I think would excite people and really thought
about cloud emphasis as a much different type of campaign.
But a lot of the fundamentals stayed the same.
So it was really surprising. It felt very validating because
I was, I sold a bass guitar that was sort of I was selling stuff
to pay for art. Those kinds of things.
Didn't mortgage the house or anything like that.
That's not my style. I didn't take out a bunch of
credit card debt. I, you know, you hear sometimes
you hear creators do that and that just seems like a horrible
idea to me. Sometimes it works out for
folks. I mean, I don't need people are
probably looking at me for a life lesson around this stuff,
but I did what was within reason within my budget.
But I did stretch things a bit with this idea of benchmarking.
We did a lot of benchmarking around comparable campaigns and
and within the mothership ecosystem.
So I thought it would be much more successful than my previous
campaign, but no idea it was going to be so successful.
And then there were certain things as you mentioned that the
daunting aspect was early around fulfillment.
The quotes that I gave were around me fulfilling everything.
So that was that was the horror of the campaign for a long time
was just how many books are showing up at my house and how
the heck am I? Am I going to get them all in
the house and not like will they fit?
Can I get them downstairs? Can I get them out of the house?
And the other thing too is so we had about 1800 backers that did
physical pledges, but that's eight books and a number of
postcards. So you know, multiply that and
then I tried to do I think 30 to 40% extra.
So that's sort of the the size. So it ended up being I think
like 8 or 9 pallets and I hired some movers to help me move them
down and and got them all out some kind of grueling physical
labor on my end. But that was the the big scare
for me was how do I do this the fulfillment side of things and
also I I didn't want to the the project was not priced at having
a fulfillment company do a lot of the fulfillment.
And so that was something I didn't want to change up because
I thought there would be some disappointment and and I don't
know, I don't know if I I don't know how backers would have
would have if I doubled the the shipping fees.
I ended up having to increase them based on the the quantity
and volume and things like that and also just the size of the
product increase through development quite a bit the
weight and all those things. But I didn't want to drastically
change sort of shipping estimates as much as possible.
And so I I was sort of committed to doing it myself which ended
up working out. I think I'm not something I plan
on doing again. Yeah, you know, I I didn't feel
like I waited forever for this. Like when?
When? When did the campaign actually
finish? So the campaign finished
February 7th, maybe something like that.
The there's sort of an optimistic fulfillment date out
there. The the more realistic or
conservative one was October and so most backers received their
pledges in November. We have a couple, I think maybe
50 to 60 Canadian backers. They're still getting them out
too, just with some delays and holiday shipping.
That was one of the big things I wanted to do was ideally avoid
some of the surcharges and and just chaos of of holiday
shipping. We didn't totally do that.
But yeah, so it ended up being, I don't know, February to
October for most folks, early November for most folks, which I
was, I was pretty happy with. Yeah, realistically for a
Kickstarter that's a pretty quick, solid turn around.
So especially if you're hand packaging everything that's
that's I I'm, I can't believe that actually is just how long
it took and that you hand sent out like 1800 packages that's
crazy. Yeah, yeah, I I, I think one of,
you know, I think a lot about both.
I have to wear a lot of hats being sort of single creator
publisher and one of the things they think about with my
publishing hat is is what kind of experience do folks get in in
the crowdfunding campaign. And so that's been something I
don't know if I'm I'm I hope folks have as as pleasant an
experience in the crowdfunding campaign as they do with the
product after. I mean ideally the product's a
little better than you know just shopping hopefully you get some
fulfillment out of it beyond. But I I've certainly backed a
number of crowdfunding campaigns and and it's turns really dark
and really stressful and and feels like people are lying to
you and it just it creates this really toxic relationship
sometimes it feels like it and and there's a lot to be said
about the crowdfunding dynamics and all those sorts of things
and and the systems at play and why those those dynamics happen.
But it can really diminish I think my engagement with a piece
of media or a game I get or something like that if I've had
sort of a negative perception of the creator through the the
crowdfunding campaign. And so that's something I'm
really big on is that customer service experience and try to be
really honest and keep my word around things but also be really
realistic and and use sort of that project management lens
around getting out ahead of risks and and really helping
folks see the decisions I'm making, why those decisions are
coming and and ultimately letting people off the boat
with. You know, we really haven't had
a lot of people ask for refunds or drop, but that's always an
option too, if, if, if the changes don't sort of align with
someone's vision for the product that we're making.
That's a very very like collected holistic like a view
on this whole process that's so like incredibly well-rounded.
And like it's interesting to hear career talk about like Oh
yeah the the experience is like backing this and how they feel
about the project past just getting the thing like I really
I I I think very highly of you for that because I've had a lot
of native. I think Ball had negative
experiences with Kickstarter. Or we're just like, oh man, I
feel different about this after having to deal with the person
creating this, yeah. And one of my one of my largest
concerns right now we're seeing this proliferation of multiple
crowdfunding platforms and Kickstarter right now is is I
think still raising the sort of largest amount of revenue,
especially for smaller projects. But I'm interested to see how
those negative experiences coalesce around the the brand of
Kickstarter. I'm starting to see more and
more people say I don't back Kickstarters anymore.
So does that mean crowdfunding? Does that mean other platforms?
I I'm just really not sure. I well I seem to see like folks
make exceptions even when they say that around track record and
trust and and what they see in a campaign and what they can maybe
touch and feel and and identify ahead of the campaign to to make
sure something's not like vaporware or something's not you
know totally unfinished. But it's it's things change so
quickly. I mean I would have never
thought we don't need to go into it.
But I spent so much time building this Twitter brand and
I was all so excited and I got like 1000 Twitter followers out
of out of like you know I went from zero to 1000 in like 6 to 8
months because the amount of effort and time I had put into
it and that just sort of all it's totally evaporated for a
number of reasons. And so you just really can't
predict these things. But I, I try to keep my eye on
trends and and really think about again that human
experience folks have because one of the things I've watched
some videos on and I I I'm kind of into marketing weirdly.
But one of the things I I've heard folks talk about is, is if
you're an artist, you're an artist but you're also a
salesperson in, in our digital environment, we do a lot of
sales, right. So how do we create a sales
experience that doesn't feel, doesn't leave the bad taste in
your mouth throughout the entire process And and how do I create
a sales like sales funnel, right?
How do I get people who just hear the name Cloud Empress into
a place where they can make a determination whether it's a
game they think they'll enjoy, whether that's playing it or
reading it. So that's just a lot of what I
think about it and not doing that out of a way of of like
helping people make an informed decision is is what I really try
to do. And a lot of that too is is like
the rule books free that I I plan on keeping that free for
for a long long time just to help people.
Like you can look at what you're going to get you know and really
sort of see what the game's about before you have to make a
financial decision. Because I know there's a lot of
games competing for people's interests.
And also I mean money's tight and and games bring a lot of joy
to people's lives and and we we have to make sort of finite
decisions about what we purchase.
I will say one last thing though.
I am a little, I don't know, maybe I do get a little worried
about this idea though of of like being a consumer as our
primary mode of engaging with art and and particularly around
reviewers that sort of speak as consumer advocates.
I find that very very unnerving at times and I really think
about a lot of the work I do from like an art first
standpoint and and using the commercial vehicles of our
economy to sort of get art to people that that are interested
in it who whose lives might be impacted or changed by it.
So I I do try to be careful about this this like consumer
first idea more like a people first I don't know kind of thing
but the whole the word consumer has a lot of connotations along
with like content and content creator and all these other
things so. Yeah, that's a lot, I mean.
Some of the stuff I think. About it, if you really think
about it, it's a slippery slope to cloud Empress from here.
You know what I mean? This is where it starts.
But you know a lot of what you said to not dig too deep into
into some things, but regardless of like the, not regardless of
as part of like the consumer experience because like we are,
I mean I consume things. It's the thing that happens.
But I will say that like I especially with as far as
crowdfunding and stuff goes to me, what I've always found the
most important and what I really appreciate about the way that
you've handed yourself through this entire process is just, I
don't even want to say like personable, like you've been
very upfront from the beginning. You laid out the expectations
from the beginning. As we said that you, you turned
a project around that's this beautiful in what would you say
like 8-9 months and there's still, I think, what are there
like 23 updates on the Kickstarter in that period of
time? That to me is what I find most
important is I will wait and I have, there's still projects I'm
waiting four years on that I'm not mad about because I've been
updated through the entire process.
There's an explanation a little bit of like the sausage is made
kind of thing. And one thing that I really
appreciate about how it seems the way that you like, project
manage this entire thing is, is it about what you talked about
Like you want people to enjoy the game, enjoy the experience,
the book is free. Like there's all these little
things all the way through where it's like very clearly not
necessarily like for the consumer as in I paid money for
this. So I want it.
But for the person that wants to appreciate the art that you made
with this and and the thing that's actually produced in
their hands, that mean a lot and that there's a lot of ways where
little things can Ding a thing. You know what I mean?
Like one thing here, one thing here and then at the end you
might have a bad experience. And for me, as far as cloud
business concerned, like, I felt like I had the opposite
experience with that where like every time I got an update or
like when I was talking to you know, I talked to Christian a
lot. They've been on the show the
first time I heard that like the book is just going to be free
for a long time. Things like that.
I'm just like every time I heard about Cloud Empress, it was
always a positive experience. And I don't really think like at
any point was I like, yeah, but they could have done that
differently like and that's what I think it's really fantastic.
Yeah. Well, I mean, even the other No.
Go for it. Well, the the other thing that
comes to mind and I appreciate you saying all that because
those are all kind of micro decisions I've been trying to
make. There's more and more research
about trust, which I think is interesting.
The research I've seen around trust breaks down into
competence and integrity, or competence and values and what
they what. The stuff I've read about it
from researchers is that trust can be rebuilt, but there
there's also It's really difficult to regain trust.
When you feel like someone's integrity is compromised or
their values are compromised or are strongly different than your
own, people can show that they have competence by doing better,
by by fixing things. But I think a lot of the time
where there's that breakdown is when someone is dishonest and
there's a lot of pressure. I feel when I'm writing these
updates to paint a good picture. I want people to think that
things are going well. And I I also think there's a
turning point. I don't know if this is the all
the the conversation you all intended to have, but I think
there's this sort of like winners, losers, mentality that
we have. I don't know if that's societal.
I don't know if it's some kind of like I I get really cautious
about anything being biological. But a lot of what crowdfunding
is about is this idea of like this is a winner.
You're participating as a winner.
And then a lot of that comes down to what the first day looks
like, the momentum of the campaign over time.
But a crowd can really turn on a campaign and it becomes this
this like really negative cathartic thing where people
just and it's it's a guilty pleasure sometimes for me to
read them. But I know it could just as
easily be me and and sometimes it's not up to the creator why
the that thing turns but people. And then you see the whole
psychological thing of, like, come on, I know they can do it.
If you're reading this, I believe in you.
And people going through these, like, stages of grief over the
$500 they put into this miniature scheme that they're
never going to see in this Ponzi scheme, right.
So it's just so it's such a psychologically interesting
thing. But a lot of what I learned was
from Jamie Stigmeyer around. He's put out a ton of tremendous
free resources around. One of the things, just for an
example, I probably said it a couple times, but he's like, if
you're just a single person, just talk from your own
perspective. Don't be like we're we're the
corporation that's making this game.
If it's just you, just say it's you, right?
And so that's something I try to do.
It's like it's just me most of the time.
Like we have a team of people that that put together certain
things, but a lot of times it's just me.
And so just being open and honest about that with the trust
that it's not going to scare someone in that it's not this
like huge production team that's never going to make a mistake,
but instead going for this more realistic trust based approach.
And really I think to comfort to me is, is the more authentic you
are with boundaries, with healthy boundaries, the more you
could filter out who will be who, someone might enjoy your
work. And also like there are
customers I don't want to deal with, right?
Like, there are people that have expectations I can't meet
primarily, or demands that I think are unhealthy that I like,
I don't want to engage with, right?
And so I can help set the context and the expectations for
folks and other people can meet them, right?
So I think one of the things I I tried to make caught up as big
and polished, but like, I didn't go with the hardcover rulebook
and all those kinds of things, because I wasn't sure I could
ship that and make it without it getting all bent up.
Right. So I don't know.
I don't really know how to do that at this point.
Maybe later I will. But just an example of like
setting some of those expectations, yeah.
I think it's funny how much of that whole thing was like yeah,
this is just being an artist and being a human dealing with like
the expectations and this like ingrained thought process of
capitalism like the winner losing thing is like total
social Darwinism like capitalist bullshit where.
But I do think that you're right when you come out as like hey
I'm a person doing this and like if I make mistakes like I am
trying not to but I am a singular human, it makes you so
much more relatable. Like, I think that's so true And
and I think you obviously have seen a lot of success like in
taking that approach and I've seen other people who have had
less success because they were like, oh, this are a little
company. I'm like, it's you and one other
dude, you know? Yeah, it makes a big difference.
I just don't understand. I mean especially with like
modern kind of views on companies and stuff of Ditterel
cuz like I mean we're eat the rich people here.
So like, I just don't see a reason to an extent to to try to
put this like almost barrier of branding between.
It's like why make yourself faceless?
Because we are human being. We see faces in the backs of
cars like we want, like we we personify people.
So it is it is really nice to be able to see the person doing it.
But in some of the stuff we're talking about with crowdfunding,
like as someone who's backed way too many projects, I've always
found the thing that got me less interested in a project over
time is like I I think obviously, you know, everyone
needs to set boundaries for what they can do on Kickstarter.
For me, I think what immediately turns my head is when, like,
someone sets a boundary and then fails at their like, to meet
where they've set that boundary as well.
So if you say like, I'm going to do a monthly update and then six
months passes by, I can tell you like that I you, I can tell you
right now that in six months we're going to hear that some
terrible life of it happened and you're six months behind and
like all this other stuff. And it's just like I would I'm
happy to get hey nothing happened but I'm still alive
updates every month. If they said they were going to
do it every month then to hear nothing for six months and then
be like well, I didn't have anything to say.
So I I think the setting the boundaries and then like meeting
those expectations for the backers at least from someone
who's backed a ton was is incredibly important in
crowdfunding. And as I said, like you seem to
have met like all of those, like, if if I forget that I
backed a project and I'm not worried about it, to me that
feels good. Where I'm like, oh, it's been
six months, didn't even realize, like we're we're, we're good.
I heard something about it last month.
That's fine, you know. And there's there's to speak it
to that too. I I've done that on occasion,
mostly with internal development goals with you feel the pressure
and you're things have to change or I need to.
I need to get on track, so I'm going to set this this goal that
I think I can do, and maybe it's optimistic, but there's all this
research about how bad we are at setting goals and one of the
things I've started to do is I have like a Kanban board, like a
post it board, but I put the expected time on one side and
once it's done and I write how many hours it takes.
So this is an adventure. I'm writing for Cloud Empress,
so I have six hours, so I'm probably at like 8 right now.
But I try to just do this so I can check my own headspace
around. Am I getting how am I doing with
estimating things? Because it's so easy to say, OK,
I was in AI was in a bad place or things weren't going well
before, but now they're going to change and it and it's it
doesn't work that way. Normally it's it's but it's so
easy to to feel the pressure of an audience or an editor or a
team that's waiting for something.
Or a discord server Discord. Server whomever.
Because folks, folks are excited and folks want to see your work
and folks want to have it in their hands.
And I I will say too I have seen just a tremendous amount of like
patience and understanding and and I had to pull out.
I I drastically underestimated how big these books were going
to be. So how that what what happened
then was like oh like I couldn't fit the introductory adventure
in the book. Like these are 60 pages is the
most I can get in AI engage with backers or audience members and
they said oh we really want staple bound.
So that took perfect bound off the table because people said we
want it to be flat. We want it to be a book that we
can kind of throw around. So that was sort of a constraint
on the project. But then it became, well, we can
only print 60 pages and 60 pages is pretty big.
I do like 50 pages might have been, might have fold flatter a
little bit. But then it became oh like what
do I do with this inner in intro adventure or you know, I
couldn't fit the pamphlets. The pamphlets were just not
going to fit with the commission's I had for.
So yeah, expanding those kinds of things, not sure why I
brought that up at this point, but just talking about how how
those the scope things can change maybe, I don't know.
It's very mothershipy for you to have so many scenes, though, you
know what I mean? Like, yeah, this is this is the
most mothershipy thing ever. It's like.
This entire shelf, except for maybe like these two books, is
just mothership scenes. So, like, it's definitely a
scene thing to have mothership. But you know, it's really clear
though that you do have project management experience, and I
think that's where a lot of people tend to to suffer as
well. There's people out there that
make great stuff and then I'm never gonna back it again
because their product management on their crowdfunding was just
abysmal. And it's it sucks, but when
you've lost someone, you've lost someone.
But again, it seems like every step of the way you're talking
about like sourcing out, like do I do perfect out Or like there's
there's this thought all the way through where it's just like
what do people want? What's the best thing that I can
give and still like have my vision come through.
That just seems like I said it it it's really important to a
project and it's very evident once you get this.
And it's interesting too to hear like why it is interesting, like
why the intro adventures not in the first one and why it's
staple bound and why there's like 6 pamphlets and why it's
not a hardback book and stuff like that.
Those are really awesome things to hear and I'm sure like people
that are creating Kickstarters in the future, it's just like it
Sometimes you have to like these are the things that happen
because these are the way that as the things are presented to
me that their best possible options versus being like, no, I
have to do this thing and there's no compromise and I
think that can bury people too. So it's really nice to hear and
see that it again, It is a fantastic project and it looks
great and to hear the reasons why it turned out the way it did
is really cool. The other thing I I I don't
probably nobody knows this but one of the other well I talked
to Sean McCoy a little bit about this and one of the things
advice he gave me was I wanted to make this as equitable a
project I could with not fully understanding what the costs are
going to be. So the adventure writers in
particular are getting per copy royalty on on the, you know,
which, which isn't uncommon. I'm not like bragging about that
or anything like that. But he was sort of talking like
when you do that, you're maybe committing the next 20 years of
your life to be engaged with that person, right.
And so one of the things that I'm, I want to make projects
that are equitable, that support the creators, that that put
their artistry into them and and support diverse creators, you
know, their livelihoods, all those kinds of things.
But one of the things that was really intentional about this is
like, you know, I won't even say I, I, you know, but if one of
these people like something really bad, they do something
really bad. Like we can pull that book and
continue to sell these books, right?
Or we don't have to. Like, one of the things we've
talked about with trust, right, is like if somebody does
something really bad and they're like 12 pages in here, like, how
do people feel about that work? And so that's something I really
think about in in. I've been a part of a lot of
communities that have self destructed from some really
toxic behavior and I I've come to believe that you can do your
best and I have like a value statement.
We try to talk about the the values of a company I'm working
with. You know like legally protecting
myself from from the impacts other people's can have, other
people can have. But ultimately that's like
another place where trust really comes out as the the people you
collaborate with. And so building financial
security into those relationships while also trying
to create an equity is something that's really challenging and I
think not something a lot of folks, a lot of folks approach
community and partnerships with this like well of course things
are going to go well. We're both great people, right?
And maybe that's like just me being a low trust person but
I've just seen so many really horrible stuff or or somebody
having royalties on a piece of work that then it's like it just
feels icky for everyone. Everyone loves the game but it
just feels really icky to to sell it anymore and and I don't
know that's sort of a a tangent and and maybe but I think it's
important for me that that I stand by the the folks that work
on the games and and that I support them financially.
Those are those are values of mine.
You know, even though you're like a massive corporation, I
want you to know I think you're very humane, so.
Yeah. So kind of shifting gears a
little bit, it's still talking about the Kickstarter though.
Did you aside from the things we did talk about, did you
actually, did you run into any big complications or has was
your kind of like step by step product management able to keep
most of that stuff just to like maybe having to like switch
gears but not really like hit a wall at all?
The the two two worst parts of the campaign just stress wise
were one, we lost a fulfillment partner in the UK pretty last
minute and things significantly changed with their fulfillment
model. Like every month we were working
together and so that was a big scare for me and and
unfortunately we had promised this we I had promised this
customs well me and the fulfillment partner promised
like this customs free experience for for EU backers in
particular and their their business model changed and I
don't necessarily I mean I'm not criticizing them for that like
they have to do what they have to do.
I don't think they do fulfillment anymore even because
it's it's a really their margins are so low on all this stuff.
It totally makes sense in this all these kind of again the
fulfillment partners all these people are like except for maybe
some of the printers and and in particular it's all one or two
people doing all this stuff in many cases.
So that was a big scare and and I was really worried and and
there is a financial ones just consumer experience impact
around customs free is so nice when you can do it for folks
that they get the thing and they don't have to pay a bunch of
money and it and and from what I hear like sometimes you have to
go to the post office and sign these papers and all this kinds
of stuff and it's really just a scare like I don't know how much
this is going to cost nobody knows like what the what's going
to have I don't know so there's just a big scare So that was a
big thing that that really freaked me out and we ended up
getting it to folks for reasonable price with this
customs addition that that was unfortunate but I think I only
had one backer that said that that wasn't going to be
financially viable or or not even that but they just didn't
want to participate in that kind of model it was just not what
they were looking for in the campaign and and got them the
digital files I think so or or we'll get them the digital files
on drive through when when they they're out the other piece was
cloud. Empress was originally sort of
designed to be a little bit more of and I'm not like the the most
like a little bit. More story gaming.
So like the original hex scroll is going to be like 48 hexes or
something like that with the idea that they were going to be
a lot more in each HEX and a lot more almost pre scripted
scenarios that would have characters and and there is a
system of like tracking NPCS across the hexes.
So NPCS and bean barge like I would actually track where they
were moving and what decisions they were making.
And what I came to realize was that I was sort of playing my
own game. I was taking these NPCS I really
loved and taking them on adventures and and offering that
to the players. But through development editing
really realized that that was sort of the fun of the warden in
particular like that's the fun where the word gets to express
their creativity and and and also that I didn't need to do
it. I draw a lot of inspiration.
Very. Important When you're doing all
this yourself, what do you not need to do, you know?
And it was just a ton of work and and it wasn't fun overhead
for people to do so. I still tried to keep one of the
the ideas that I have that I think is cute is still having
NPCS show up that you've met before maybe and that I think
may turn some players off and that it's well, how do you know
that NPC is alive still? But that's just sort of, I don't
know, trusting that, trusting the people there to to put
somebody else in or just bring them back from the dead, cursed
or you know whatever. But that was the biggest thing
was really leaning more into a OSR type old school sense of
play where versus something that was a little bit more
situational and scripted and and modeled more like scenes and and
situations rather than this larger minimalist at times hex
map. So that was like a big change
and it it scared me and we ended up doing 2 development passes
with sort of like the we went through one dev pass and and
realized certain things weren't where they needed to be and some
of the the risks I were taking weren't paying off.
I like taking risks. I like trying new stuff, but
they just weren't. They were more work than they
were and and and they were coming out of a place of maybe
taking some of the fun out of the warden in particular, and so
bringing that back in meant like a pretty major rewrite on the
setting book in particular. Also I guess the other piece too
with the the first development editing pass I wanted to write.
I felt like obligated to write a lot of how to play RPG stuff
which I'm sure you all love. I'm like what is an RPG and like
I have maybe I I released all this stuff too.
I I I'm a big fan of just like releasing work in progress
materials but I had a like two or three pages on safety tools
and and one of the things that I've realized is I run games I
play RPGs. But there are people that that
do it a lot more than I do and also have a lot more experience
and knowledge and insight and then that stuff.
I felt like I wasn't you know when I got advice on I wasn't
really saying anything new or profound and so trusting the
players to there's a lot of trust I try to give to the
players and and like Hunter you talked about the Magic being
pretty wacky like trusting players to have fun with Magic
and and knowing where I can play with that trust.
So one of the areas that I I I gave a little bit more trust
around was not needing to write a ton about safety.
I I mentioned that safety's important in in play but I think
Troika has a one of the examples we used when writing the book
was like Troika said something like just go search the Internet
for it right. It's like it's there, you can
look for it and and also sort of key to the work I do is really
figuring out who this game is for.
And and I didn't imagine it was going to be for someone's like
first RPG, maybe they're second or third or they're they're
friends first. But that somebody with some
experience was probably guiding someone into this experience and
that they would be setting the tone for it.
Yeah, that's so that's such a funny thing because we do often
talk about that. It's like there will be these
RPGs that are like, like fairly esoteric.
Like, you know, you're not finding this in your first time
playing a game or maybe your fifth time.
And like, yeah, they'll have a whole How To section, so it's.
Not necessary like all the time. My line is like, this is not
your first game. Like there's no way this is your
first game. Like, it's very rare that this
could be and the person running it, it's definitely not theirs.
So like the need to have like what is the TTRBG and like even
the safety tools thing. Obviously we're big safety tools
people. But I think even just like
mentioning that it's a good idea to use them for most times is is
good enough. Because I definitely think there
was like a like a, like a like a movement a little bit in TRBGS
where there's this like big, like maybe like unawareness of
them or like not drive. And then, like it became like
such a big push that it's now just kind of an accepted part of
the community that like everyone knows about it a little bit
more. So it's there's weird things
that sometimes happen where like things something might not have
been there. So there's a big push for it.
And now for the most part, I think if you talk to most people
in the scene, like they know what a safety tool is.
It's not often, but if we also did talk about that with like in
Mouse Rider and stuff like that, like having a what is the TTRPG
thing in a game that might be someones first game is a great
thing to have. It's just yeah like if you're
the odds of some people's yeah like super weird esoteric like
you know found on the on the page 10 of of some website game
doesn't necessarily need 3 pages on it.
So it's it's interesting that you made that the the choice in
in the the rule book for you as well.
And and the design philosophy then extends to the like the
setting book like a lot of these hex descriptions I don't know.
I'll try to find. Should I try to find one?
That's. Some of them are kind of minimal
lost, you know, there are a couple sentences for an entire
hex. I'm not going to find it. 2
green Pharma legs tag a concrete wall with a bucket of paint.
Three of their friends sit in the shade of the collapsed
aqueduct, watching, laughing and flirting.
So it's just a sentence. And I think if we set up this
like how to play an RPG and all this like hand holding in the
the, there's not a lot of hand holding for that, right?
I mean, I think it's evocative, but it's going to take some
creativity and experience to make that come alive and like,
fill in those details, like there's not a list of who those
NPCS are, There's no stats for those NPCS, but.
This kind of circles back to trust, You know, like this is
you trusting your players like your wardens to like fill in the
blanks. And I personally do not.
If you make a hex crawl and every single hex is packed, I
don't want to play it. I love a hex that has like,
yeah, like that. Like they're just tagging a wall
and it's a bunch of dudes hanging out.
Feel so lived in. Like this is what people do,
like they have nothing to do. It's midday, they're done for
the day or whatever. They're taking a break, they're
tagging a wall. You're going to your your
party's going to shoot the shit with them and maybe have an arm
wrestling competition and you'll go on your way, you know?
But you know I really love a lot of the way that you do hexes and
like my my go to example a lot of times is nature may from
highland paranormal with the way that they write adventures
because they do a ton of micro dungeons.
And I I really like when a situation is is put out there
and that's what you get. You know, I think my biggest
knock personally to me, I'm not as mean on 5E as I used to be.
But it's because every situation is like described where like the
way that I really enjoy hexes is like you said here are these
people doing this thing as opposed to hear these people
doing this thing. If you do this role for that, if
you do this role for that because you're not even it feels
like not Even so much that the GM is railroading the players,
but that the module is railroading the GM to force
these very specific situations. And that's just not the game I
like to play because like I play the game to to see how the world
happens and see how the players happen.
So the way that you do a lot of the descriptions and the hexes
like that are are, it's really fantastic because yeah, just
give me give me the seed and let my players you know and I can
plant it and let the players grow it, you know and it it's
it's really nice to see a lot of the descriptions you did with
the axis the. The other thing that I think I I
just love about hex scrolls at least writing them is and I
don't I I forget what your your all opinions on this are but I
don't do like many adventure hooks on any of the the
locations because it's a big hex map.
It's like just go somewhere else like if it's boring you do
something else right. Like I think it.
I think adventure hooks are more important especially in
mothership. When you're going into a, it's
like you're going, there's a lot of derelict ships.
It's like I'm not going to go in there like, so you need a hook
to get in there. At least it feels like when I'm
playing mothership games. But with the hex crawl it's like
just go somewhere else like, but to write this big like, you know
some people say there's a treasure chest in the basement
and da, da, da, da, da and like the old man told you this and
and that that stuff like, I don't know works for some folks,
but it's just something I I let go of and and made the world to
me feel a little bit more organic.
And also that it's like like apples to apples, right.
It's like all the jokes are written for you.
So where where does the And I think that's something that's
really interesting to me as someone who like originally came
to RPGs to create worlds. Like that's kind of my
publishing imprint is worlds by what?
Like I like making settings. I like world building.
That's the thing that excites me.
And I try to think that I would play Cloud Empress as someone
that didn't design it because I think there's still a lot of
space for that world building creativity.
And I never try to fill in the bubble or the the picture
because I think one of the big challenges I have, especially
around world building, like I would never run a a Lord of the
Rings game ever, because I know one of my players is going to
know more about Tolkien than I am.
Right. It's very static.
And the people that are excited. So it's it that that just seems
to be like this fundamental problem of like having to stay
on script within these boundaries and and having agreed
upon universes. I am writing a lot of I do
monthly expansions for Cloud Empress on my newsletter and so
a lot of the like world building stuff that people want to find
out about they can vote on and then I and then I write that
stuff. So we did one on farming just
like on farming and and one of the next ones is like law and
order in the Lowland Wastes the setting the the hex crawl area
that that's already out but I think I try to write those vague
enough where it's like regional or like this is how it normally
is or these are some particular people that are having this
experience. So that I one of my into the odd
is like and I should say electric bastion land is is
great because it's just this like anything could possibly fit
in here if you're creative enough to make it work.
And and sometimes I think that can make the set.
I I think it works well in electric bastion land because
there's these spaces like the underground is like where you
put your robots and your AI and your your demons and stuff
technology and and I forget what it's called the the old world or
the outlands or whatever is where you put the Cowboys stuff
and so there's these different spots for it and that's
something I tried to do with cloud.
Empress was let other people's creativity have a space where
they weren't going to feel like they were stepping on my toes,
creating or expanding the world. Well, it's.
I don't even know. We've given, like, hard opinions
on hex crawls. I love them.
The great I love. Hex crawl.
Yeah. To me, I think what's really the
most important is just like exactly what you're talking.
It's just a broad stroke. Like I I like.
I think Mark Borg does a really good job of being like this is a
city name and here are the vibes of this area.
And then go make stuff. And so it's really nice to just
be like this is, you know, this is the lowlands, this is the
normal kind of people you might find there.
This is the kind of stuff they do.
And then that's it. Because as a as a forever GM, my
favorite thing to do is to fail that myself.
Like I would I would take like if I had like a a map of like a
country for example like in the Cobalt process will do it and if
they have like this city fully described in this city fully
described I'll be like but that
was not described so I have a name and it's a route that kind
of stuff I want and now I can make it my own.
So that's that's it's really great.
I think if hex crawls are are broad strokes and you know then
like dungeon crawls and stuff are really for like the fine
painting. And I think I think you did a
really good job of of laying that out.
And especially when you read even even before you get to the
rule book, even just reading the lower book, you get these like
really beautiful broad strokes through the early interest
introduction stuff even through like the character creation
tables and stuff like that. You really do feel like you fill
in those vibes more than like the the specificity which is
which is really great, so. And I think a lot of that
comfort when I I started my interest in tabletop
role-playing games, it was 3.5 and it felt like if there wasn't
a rule for something like I couldn't do it.
Like how do I know what the monster is and and if I don't
have a stat for it like I can't, am I going to make my own
monster? There was so much there already
that it felt like anything I did was going to be wrong or like
horribly broken. So I I do think too one of the
sort of other goals was like the the mini adventures being like a
one shot kind of thing with like little prep like hey just pop
this open, there's a map there's all your NPCS it.
It's not very prescriptive on on what happens and how the players
engage with it. But these kind of building in
one shots and campaign play is something I really tried to
think about. And having these sort of little
mini modules that would be in both the setting book and the
the Year 1 adventure bundle and and the introductory eventually
being designed as a one shot. Just because I know how busy
people are and and just how hard it is to get a group of human
beings together multiple times And also again with consumption
everyone's buying RPGs right? So everyone has their system
they want to play. So just creating experiences
that would be self-contained and interesting within a short
amount of time. I mean, I really enjoy it.
You definitely succeeded. It's, I don't know it's a great
it's a great piece of content that you it's.
A great plan. For.
Us. So looking back on the
Kickstarter and now that Cloud Empress is for a lot of people
in our hands, and then it's gonna digitally start making its
way to drive through and stuff. Is there anything that you think
going back that you would change?
Like if you could based on the resources and everything you
had, knowing what you know now, would you have been like, oh,
like I wish I would have done X instead of Y?
Or are you pretty much like good with decisions you made along
the way? Like ideally like?
I'm yeah, if if one of the variables changed, right.
Like if time changed or money changed or those kinds of things
like there's some there's some space there that maybe I would
make some different decisions. I it was a lot to pack.
So did you have like? Like a multiple rooms full of
boxes because I mean, well, it was like you were like 20,000
items, right? It's like.
Yeah, I had five, five or six full pallets in my basement and
then like 5 or 6 just full shelving units full of foldable
boxes. So I think like one I would
have, I would have quoted. I think the other thing is, is
OK, so this is probably not what you're asking for, but I got
some some shipping numbers that I thought like that's a really
good shipping rate. Like I don't know how they're
going to do that, but that sounds great.
I would not take that number anymore like I would just I I I
think I'm going to use my estimates on shipping from now
on. Like this is what I think based
on the weight it'll reasonably ship at the other thing.
That I'm trying to do on future projects.
I didn't. I've never had work like
professionally edited before and so I really understand the
editing process in a way that I had just like no idea.
I I I've had some friends that were editors in like the poetry
world and that's just really different than the TTRPG world
and so my expectations for editing and and I also was not
planning to be the graphic designer for any of this stuff
so that was like a like a couple like 3 or 4 weeks before the
Kickstarter was supposed to go live I lost my graphic designer
for the project very suddenly and so I had to recreate a lot
of work that they did and all this stuff.
So all that's to say ideally I'd like to have a pretty close to
complete book done as I go into crowdfunding again to sort of
minimize those risks. Again, that takes more resources
and that's one of the reasons I'm so grateful that the first
project was a success. I the the work for the next
campaign is well underway. And so I already have like a lot
of the art assets done. I have all the graphic design
templates ready, the writings happening.
So that's like one of the big things, fulfillment is so
complicated and and one of the things as I mentioned earlier,
one of the stress points was you don't sign contracts at least I
don't know many people that sign contracts with folks doing
fulfillment or shipping. So it's a very like word of
mouth industry. And when you finally invoice,
yeah that becomes sort of a contract.
But folks business models and prices change in six months and
three months. And so I think that's one of the
big things if I can get to a place where with the campaign
I'm quoting somebody's shipping rate and we're going to ship it
in three months. I mean that's really different
than nine months in terms of what could you know, what those
prices could be, who I might be partnering with and working with
and those kinds of things. So that's something just really
front loading as much as possible.
I think one thing it does lose is somebody like in the board
game sphere that that I look up to it like Leader games who you
might be familiar with. They publish Root and Oath and
some really fantastic games called Whirly.
They really take a like participatory development route,
like they don't have it fully done and they work sort of with
audience feedback along the way. So I think that's one thing I
lose a little bit of is that you sort of lock into your
development path. Like I'm going on my gut and
some early feedback for what we're doing for the next
project. But it's not like I have a big
chunk of reviews that I can sort of look at and listen to.
But I think that that for a number of reasons solidifies
that positive backer experience and also makes it look just
more. I don't want to lose my house.
Like, I mean, I mean, you know, I have some business protections
to that, but but it's really scary to think that like
anything, I mean, I heard this about just applying for jobs.
The most important thing we have is our name and our reputation.
And so it's like every single time you go up for one of these
projects, your entire reputation and future in the industry is at
stake. And so that's a lot.
So to minimize that as much as possible.
And I know people you can rebuild trust and I know people
you know are forgiving of honest mistakes and and problems that
are unforeseen. But especially during the
pandemic with a lot of these situations where people have to
come back and ask for more money.
I mean that's just so I understand why they do it.
It just seems like such a horrible experience for everyone
involved and you get people saying like they're blackmailing
me for my game and yeah, it just like just what a bad situation
to be in for everyone involved. It just so I think that's the
big thing too. I do this because I'm passionate
about the art I'm making and I'm passionate about the community
that I participate in. So I really try to.
I don't want to turn into like the worst experience of my life.
So that I think that's the. In summary, I'm really front
loading a little bit more of the campaign with some of my more
and I have more funds than out of Commission.
A lot of the artwork in advance, there was maybe 20 pieces of art
that I still needed to do and I think the the added benefit is
that I can sort of keep the art team like funded over a longer
period of time, which is cool. Yeah, I mean so.
You would change nothing is what I'm kidding.
Yeah, nothing too big, just you just learned a lot for the next
one is what it sounds like. I mean, again, it, it just
sounds like you did just a fantastic job of managing this
entire project, which is really, which is really great to see
because it turned it into something that's absolutely
gorgeous, so. You know, yeah, yeah.
I'm really happy with that came out and you know there's little
things that you know really minor stuff that you know really
little stuff. But you know I'm I'm I I have
perfectionist tendencies but I'm really happy with it and and I I
think ultimately there's sort of a beating heart to the game that
I think we were able to I was able to keep or or we were able
to bring together through the art the graphic design and and
people are like getting that. It was amazing to hear.
There's an NPC in the setting book called Spike Head who's a
like, like, I mean he's a like corpse that's become a a
sentient fungus being and and in in our discord there there are
people like I love Spike Head and it was it felt like all
these people, Oh my gosh, Spike Head's my fave.
And it was so cool. It felt like meeting somebody
like a Co worker, knowing the same person at college, it's
like Oh my gosh, I I spent like 2 years with this character.
I spent a year and a half with this character.
Like, you know them too and and that's the the really cool thing
about building setting books in particulars is this like shared
universe and this shared, I don't know.
And and people like picking up on some of the stuff that I was
trying. I don't know.
It's just like, oh you found this character endearing.
Like I found them very endearing as well.
Like, that's awesome that that we're having that shared
experience, that that stuff's really amazing to me.
Yeah, I was describing this to Ryan and somebody else was like,
there's like this, this. The project has really great
bones to it. You know what?
There's this really amazing foundation of something like
genuinely meaningful as like a table.
Like, I'm very excited to sit down and actually play this with
my table. If I could ever get three adults
to sit down in the same room with me, you know, three adults
that live with me but very stoked for it and for, like,
future stuff. Well that's big is is there's
there's it's fantastic to see someone make something and then
be like yes, you're going to get more because like it.
You know a lot of people make a lot of like games and then make
another game and then make another game because they love
making games. But I it's really enjoyable and
we've seen it more lately where people make something fantastic
and go yes, like I like this is what I'm doing.
You'll get more of this. I enjoy this.
This is what you get. So the fact that we're getting
more of it, so like what what You've talked a little bit about
what's on the horizon specifically are you, are you,
could you talk about like what, what, what, what's coming next?
Yeah. So again, with front loading in
mind, I'm trying to let the pace of our work and what we can
complete sort of dictate when that project will show up.
But ideally, Spring 2024 we'll have the next Kickstarter
campaign we'll be announcing. So now that people are getting I
find people are find it obnoxious when you're announcing
projects when not everyone has their games in hand.
So we'll be doing more formal announcements over the next
couple months, but there will be two new setting books, one
called The Land of the Living and the other called The Land of
the Dead. One is a overgrown Spore Garden
setting and the other is a ashen Wasteland that that we sort of
teased and then had to remove from the original Kickstarter
due to space. So that'll be making its
appearance. So those are planned for spring
with some additional like books. One of the things I'm I'm, I
don't know how it'll figure into the project but Christian Meek
Castle who you've mentioned kind of got me under the idea of of
making the newsletter releasing sort of an annual Cloud Empress
newsletter publication. So all of the the expansion
content, the monthly expansion newsletter content will show up
in some form in some way. Yeah there you go.
So that's the idea with. Minds in the mail.
If you if you look at the newsletter, it it's already sort
of in layout. It's not perfect.
We need to do proofreading and some other stuff.
But designing these expansions one month at a time with the
idea of one of the things I'm really keen on is making the
print experience the core of what what I'm doing.
So really trying to to have things that are released
digitally also come in to print because of the tactile
experience and and I think people like I don't know, people
like books, I like books. So that's sort of the.
The core experience. I'm not a fan, you know, I don't
really like. That much so the the other yeah
cool piece and then there'll be this sort of introductory
adventure I'm writing. So I don't know how that'll all
come together into AI, don't know what pieces they'll go
where and and how the the crowdfunding stuff has to come
together for for a like overall product and pledge level.
But that's sort of the the idea for spring of 2024 and again I
think I've shared in some places it's it's frustrating and really
enjoyable. I think I have like maybe five
years of content sort of planned in different book forms and
there's some thoughtfulness I I'm trying not to do JJ Abrams
like mystery box on everything. So there is there's like a lot
of if there is a mystery that you sort of pick up on in many
cases, I want to try to introduce maybe not the answer,
but a a space to play in those mysteries that are sort of
pointed at in the current releases.
This might be too forward thinking because the project
just came out. Do you have any like desire or
do you see any space for there to be like a cloud Empress like
second edition or whatever where it like where it expands upon
itself within the rules? Yes, I think I'm, I'm a future
thinker. Right.
So what does Cloud Empress look like in 10 years is something I
think about who knows what planet Earth will be like in 10
years, But I think that's what successful RPGs do.
They update editions every, I don't know what, 710 years,
something like that. I think there needs to be a good
reason for that. So I I have thought about, I
think Mothership is is really the model that I'm working
under. So Mothership started with with
a free rule book, right? A free rule book that you could
get and and staple bound scenes and and that kind of stuff.
So I'd love to see at some point like a box set.
I don't know, I was like I think it's too weird to go on to
Target or like you know mass retail or something like that.
But I'd love to see like a box set to try to capture a more new
player friendly experience and maybe there could be pre gens
and those kinds of things. One thing I am really keen on
though and and really mindful of is I am really frustrated when
additions are too close together.
So when somebody comes out with something, I really like it.
And then I'll give you an example from the board game
world. There's this new board game
called Doom Uprising. So Dune Imperium is a really fun
game. There's a bunch of expansions
and they release Dune Uprising and it has.
It's sort of like a it people feel like it's a 1.52 edition
for a game people have already spent a lot of money on.
As time's coming out, it's it seems like it is more of a
different gameplay experience, but I think it gets back to that
like trust and thoughtfulness about where people's money go
goes like I don't want to be releasing something that I know
is going to become obsolete in like 2 years, right?
I mean, who knows what the future brings, But I'm always
looking at like how to make play easier.
And the other piece too is I know Sean McCoy and and Tuesday
night games they have larger plans for like mothership as a
from what I understand shaping that in to be more of a setting
that that has some kind of semblance across products.
I don't know what that will look like.
I know they're talking about the panic engine as a way to expand
the D100 panic system with with their own lines and stuff like
that. So I don't know if Cloud Empress
will always always be like Mothership.
I don't know you know they I TKG has the keys to some of the
things that the the brand you know some of the like licensing
is TKG related. And so I don't know how that'll
all develop and and that could potentially necessitate some
changes in terms of like what things are called or look like.
So those are. I don't know.
I I I think if a game is successful I think it it one
should plan on having future editions to improve content and
and but the other thing I'll say is maybe this is like I don't
know. I don't know how this sounds but
one of the things I think about is like releasing a lot of a lot
of books like a ton of books but then not having this expectation
of keeping them in print forever.
I think digitally making them available.
But also just like exploring projects with a lot of different
creators and not feeling the pressure to create like this
product line that's like 50 books that I need to print every
couple years, right. So I think that's the other
thing they think about is making a really wide product line and
keeping you know some books always in print that are sort of
part of this core experience. But then maybe like print on
demand or print at home or those kinds of things for some of the
supplemental products that could be more seasonal or or just sort
of a A1 time release thing that makes some of these crowdfunding
campaigns a little bit more exciting.
Yeah, I I love that stuff. I love when you find something
that only had like a hundred, a hundred of them printed or
something like that. Like there's like a feeling
like, I don't know. To me, I mean, I have a whole
shelf of that stuff here, but like to me it feels like got
like an artifact of the game, you know what I mean?
And it feels like a really important piece when it's not
something that I could just go to Target and pick up or
whatever. So I really love those kind of
releases, so that would be really neat.
My whole thing is we just want more cloud, Empress so.
Well and you talked about the free book too like so you So
what all of cloud Empress is going to be free online and kind
of like what is your we we've kind of talked around it a
bunch, but like why specifically have you decided to make the
parts of it just available for everyone that you that you that
you are? The the easy answer is that
Mothership had a ton of success making their role look free.
So that's like the first thing is, is me observing my peers who
are a little bit down the road, who have been really successful.
The why do I think it's a good idea.
It's not just an imitation. The first thing is existing in a
world with piracy. The the gameplay experience too.
I think it's really helpful for having like players around the
table all have a copy of this, whether that's APDF, whether
that's a a print on your printer, whether that's buying a
print copy, depending on what kind of experience you want to
have. The other thing I think about is
cloud and persist. You know I'm we're creator we
have a lot of the team is is we're creators and and
marginalized folks and so making a product that's financially
accessible to everyone but also trying to think about the so not
everything's free right But a lot of it the introductory
adventure and the the the rule book are free as a way to just
make it accessible to a lot of different folks felt important
to me and and not RPGs are like luxury items so but they they
speak to experiences that are really vital to humanity I think
and I think play is is really vital to surviving the
difficulties we face on an everyday basis and existentially
as human beings. So I I don't I wouldn't want to
like deprive that of folks on if I can play some part in that.
So I think that's the I mean and then I think the other piece
just from I I always hate to go to this place too but well maybe
it's not so negative. I mean part of it is a financial
decision in that Sean had me on his newsletter before the
Kickstarter campaign went on and we talked a little bit about how
consoles will sell their you know, they'll lose $50 on a
console because you're hopefully helping someone see the benefit
or the the joy of having this system in their lives or so I
think they're called loss leaders.
So that's the other piece too is that someone might grab the book
and then purchase some of the supplemental products if they
want to support me and you know try things out.
I think the other piece too is my hope is I really want to help
people create realistic expectations about what I'm
doing so they can pop this open and see what it's like.
And if the writing style, if the vibe is, is what they're looking
for, if the the rules are are kind of there, yeah, then they
they might enjoy some of the other content.
But if they don't like it, then they don't have to like invest
their money in that or or participate in a crowdfunding
campaign, something like that. Yeah, I mean, I think that's
such a good idea when again, as someone who backs a ton of
crowdfunding projects and also is in the space and all the
social medias and stuff, a lot of the projects that I see
really successful are ones that do put out stuff that you can
see beforehand. If I know nothing about your
game, I'm less likely. But if there's like a free quick
start or a free roll book or an Ash can or something like that
where I'm like, oh, this part intrigues me, that part
intrigues me. Like I'm definitely much more
likely to to buy in on it. So even just from the financial
standpoint, I think it makes so much sense to just be like here
is the rule book but also here's like 8 adventures too is a great
piece. But even yeah, like you said,
it's basically like having a permanent community copies up
that they do on it. And it's really nice for those
people that might not be able to afford it but want to play it,
but might be able to maybe afford one of the adventures
later or this or that to be able to have that access to it, which
is fantastic and it just feels like it fits into your.
Your corporate brand, to just be like a nice person who wants to
to have people have great experiences so you know it's
it's all around. I don't know what to say.
Besides a good job like this is one of the most positive
experiences with the Kickstarter that I've had absolutely
including like how much I enjoy the game too and I just like all
the like the back end stuff and like the production stuff.
So I I think you did an absolutely fantastic job and I
would definitely encourage people that want to do
Kickstarters and and projects to really look to cloud.
Inverse is like a a good example of like what to what to strive
for. Yeah, and I I mean, if there are
folks out there who are thinking about crowdfunding something, I
mean, reach out to me. I don't know.
I don't know how much advice and help I can give, but I'm, I'm
always happy to talk to other creators about the work they're
doing. And yeah, I don't know.
And there's a lot of free resources out there.
Like I said, Jamie Stegmeyer from Stonemeyer Games really
wrote the book on on crowdfunding board games, and
they're not doing crowdfunding campaigns anymore.
But I think a lot of their their resources are still very
relevant. So Speaking of the the free rule
book, like where can people actually find like the rule book
and any of the updates for like their stuff that's coming out
and and and all the rest of that, like where can people
actually get Cloud Empress now or in the near future?
The easiest place to probably remember off hand is Cloud
empress.com that has a collection of of what books are
out. It has digital resources.
We're also I'll just make a quick plug for four more days,
December 15th. Apologies if you're not
listening to this. You know, if you're listening to
this later but we're doing a one of the stretch goals from the
project was to create a cloud Empress creators grant.
So we're giving away, you know, moderately small amount of money
but but money that I think would really help some creators create
something in the cloud Empress universe that they can then
monetize or do whatever they want with.
It's just sort of a fund to help support their labor or or
create, you know purchase artwork, those kinds of things.
So that information is on there and that's something I'm hoping
to do on a recurring basis depending on future crowdfunding
success. So cloud empress.com, all of the
the digital files. I think my current plan is that
they'll be available on Drive through RPG, although if you buy
the physical books from a number of planning on retail dropping
around January, February, ideally most of those will also
come with the digital files as well.
But if you're looking for the something right now the rule
books free on drive through RPG as well as the the introductory
Adventure and then you can purchase the setting book and
the year 1 adventure bundle there.
Highly recommend. I mean I guess the the other
piece is the the sub stack I mentioned but you can subscribe.
I'm on sub stack but you can also subscribe to my newsletter
on the cloud empress.com website.
But as I mentioned I try to do like a one to two page spread
every month with free expansion content with with artwork and
and try to make it look pretty polished and exciting for folks.
I'm I'm definitely excited for the the future annual cause
Christian did a fantastic job at this and I I I can I can see why
he really encouraged you to to do one of your own it's a it's a
cool little piece of of of bits and bobs and it's nice to have
something like that at the table so.
Yeah and there's so many newsletters right now and and
you know I and and it's it's how do we make it worth your while
to to listen and to stay informed and those kinds of
things and and I I think it's cool for me just people ask me
questions I got some questions and there's a cloud Empress
Discord that I I post about sometimes or you can reach out
to me if if you'd like to be on it where we develop the game a
little bit further but people are asking me all these
questions about being a wanderling which is the ghost.
You know what happens when you die and you're a ghost?
Like it's just sort of a reference and I thought Oh well,
maybe people want a little bit more there.
So I wrote a two page expansion on that for for how to be a
ghost. So stuff like that is, is ways
to fill in the gaps or or questions that I, you know,
didn't have. A lot of what these books are
are really defined by. I mean they're both at the the
rule book and the setting book are both at their sixty page
limit for the printer. So there's a lot I couldn't fit
in there that I get to play around with in the newsletter.
Very cool. Yeah, very cool.
Again, we're just more excited for more and we've talked about
this a bunch. We are gonna be reviewing Cloud
Empress in January, so you'll get more cloud efforts here on
the show. Running it again.
It's a fun game. It'll probably be the game we
cover. Like we said, probably the game
we covered the most since the beginning of the show by the
time we finished. So it's really great.
Quick giveaway winner. We're going to pick that and
it's odds and ints. Yeah, odds and ints.
I think a late addition to the giveaway here.
Do me a solid. Either you just mentioned on
Discord or whisper me your how to mail stuff to you and we'll
get that sent out to you. But what?
Thank you so much for coming on. It is fantastic to hear.
Yeah, not just about Cladamus too, but honestly, just like the
back end of Kickstarter, you had so much.
Yeah, you're protected the way the project went.
Really interesting this is. A Really.
I'm new to this all and and I've I've so I hope I haven't steered
anyone in the wrong direction. But those are just kind of the
guiding principles I brought to this this first campaign and I'm
hoping they don't all prove to be like treacherous false
decisions or wrong ends for the next one.
Oh no, actually that's horrible. Don't do it that way.
Yeah, I mean we'll see and and and next time something comes
out, I'm sure we'll talk about that as well.
But awesome. Again, seriously, thank you so
much for being here. Thanks for.
Having me and. Thank you everyone in chat for
being here as well. We will try to make sure we get
this episode out in time so that we can hear about the creator
Grant, or get some people that might not have heard about that
and which is also fantastic, by the way.
That's so cool that you're doing that.
Yeah, That is our episode for tonight.
Once again, thank you. Thank you for being here.
And we'll talk to you all later. Bye.