Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll podcast.
My Name Is Ryan. And I'm a fan of minimalist
RPGs. And we have a very special guest
with us today. It's entree of Games Omniverse.
How you doing this morning or evening, Andre?
Yeah. Happy evening for me.
Morning for you guys. Thanks so much.
I'm doing great. It's a great pleasure to be
here. I've been a fan of this, of your
podcast for, you know quite a few times, quite a quite a quite
a few years now. You started.
When did you start this podcast? Like a year or two ago. .1.
It was like, it was like November 2021.
Yeah, we did our Merc Borg episode in like November 21.
Yeah, cool. Yeah, I've been a fan and I saw
the reviews you did of the games we published, and I'm really
happy to be here with you. Thank you.
Because we're like we're, it's fun because we're massive fans
of you in your work, so this works out great.
This is definitely one of those one of those times where you're
just like kind of fanboying a little bit because we're like,
you know, you're like to hear you say that you enjoy our stuff
is crazy because you know your stuff is some of the favorite,
you know some of my favorite stuff I have on my entire shelf.
So that's that's really it really feels great to to hear
you say that. Thank you.
So, so yeah, I mean, well, you know, I also want to say it
right off the bat. I haven't posted this online
yet, but I do want to say thank you for this.
This is a grail that Andre sent me out of nowhere.
Like, I just, I think I said something on Twitter that was
like, Oh my God, I'd like, I don't remember what I said, like
I'd like sacrifice my newborn child or something for one of
these. And I just got a message that
says, hey, what's your address? And and I got that and the first
Dead Robots album. So, so thank you so much for
that. I, I generally, you know, can't
tell you how much I appreciate that.
So no. It's it's definitely in good
hands. I'm happy to.
I'm happy that you have it, that you have it now.
I only have like, I have like, can you can you see there?
Yeah, so I have like 3 or 4 left.
Those two up top, they're just the boxes with a bunch of tokens
that are using my game. So I only have like three of
those left. But I'm happy that you you have
one one of those with you. I'm very.
Excited for those in podcast Land, because I don't think
we've said it at all. It's the it's the first mouse
rotor box set and it's I I just I can't the the flowers and and
stuff on it and the texture hunter you got it you got to
feel this sometime but. Someday.
Anyway, Games Omnivorous. This is why we're here to talk
about this. You're you're a fantastic
publisher of minimalist games and you call them art house
games as well. Everything that comes out from
Games Omnivorous is so incredibly well done, so well
produced and and the games you choose to to put out are
absolutely fantastic. So I guess if we go like all the
way back to the beginning and then we'll get to talking about
all that what, what kind of what got you into TTRBGS in the 1st
place, like what was your, what was your first game and and what
kind of got led to to where we're at right now?
OK, that's so we need to go back like to the 90s.
God, I feel old. So you know, I I play games as
you know forever as as far as I can remember, you know, myself
almost I I I've been playing games I think I started in 93 or
something with Magic the Gathering.
I think that's the first game that I remember playing and
being into properly and then it kind of, you know unwrapped from
from there to you know board games and other card games and
obviously let miniature games. I was really into Blood Bowl,
not not War Warhammer like the the the proper Warhammer.
I don't know how how you called. I was really into Blood Bowl.
Game, right? Yeah, it's like fantasy American
football, but very bloody and very silly.
And it's just fantastic. It was.
So I was really into that at some point.
And then I started playing role-playing games.
I don't know, maybe in the I I played a little bit in like the
late 90s, maybe early 2000s. And I played, you know, mostly
Dungeons and Dragons, Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, probably
second edition, maybe third. At some point I also played, but
when I really started playing, you know, role-playing games
more seriously and more consistently was maybe around
2010, two 1011, so about 10 years ago.
And the game that definitely drove me into the hobby was
Dungeon Crawl Classics. That was the game that that
pulled me in. It was the so I I I kind of
started so, so I I played a little bit when when I was a
teenager in D&D as I, as I said in the late 90s, early 2000s.
And then for like some years I I didn't play much.
And then I, you know in the era of the first retro clones or you
know the old school revival or whatever you want to call it,
the game that that that drew me in was was was Dungeon Call
Classics. And I I became such a fan of the
game. And you know when when you're
into the, when you're in the OSR is Sphere or whatever, NSR or I,
I don't know what people call it these days, but kind of like
this old school kind of vibe thing.
You're almost like when when you're a player, you're a game
master and you're almost a game designer as well, you know what
I mean? Because you like the way you
know the games are built and the way they are compatible with one
another. And then their settings and
there's adventures. You always thinker with the
system. You always thinker with with the
modules with the campaigns with with what you want to offer to
your players to your group. So I kind of started you know
doing my own thing with several games but for many years it was
just a hobby. It was just a hobby.
I was just happy to play games with my group and honestly
that's that's that's kind of still what I enjoyed the most is
game design and and presenting that game design to my group and
see their reaction and that's that's that's kind of like what
I what I still like the the most But then in I think it was in
2019 it was the year that my my daughter was born and in that
same year I don't I don't like obviously you sleep a lot less
and you have a lot more headaches of of of all sorts.
But one thing that I found that that having a daughter was that
there's also like for me at least there was a creative
impetus or something. There was there was I don't know
I felt very creative when after becoming a dad and I started you
know maybe I should do a publisher maybe.
You know there's there's a lot of people I I I followed a bunch
of people mostly on on Instagram people like I don't know Diogo
Nugator for instance, which was a good friend.
I'm I'm, I'm sure you you know Diogo as well and you know I
started you know maybe I should also do or try to create the
publisher see where this goes. I had some ideas.
I had some, you know, I had some thoughts on where I wanted or
how I I envisioned the identity of this publisher.
And then it it kind of started with some context and and yeah.
And here we we are and here we are today.
Four years after I actually, yeah.
Almost four years after Game Zoom never started.
I feel like like the pandemic obviously broke all our brains
as far as like time. Also like I feel old now, which
is weird. I told someone that someone else
was middle-aged today. Then I was like, wait a minute.
I'm. Middle-aged?
So like, what's what is that? But it feels like longer than
four years. Yeah.
We all know 20/19 was a week ago and also ten years ago at the
same time, yeah. Exactly.
Yeah. I think the first thing I saw
from Games Omnivorous was the manifestos.
Omnivorous. Was that the first thing that
you you started with when you were when you started
publishing? Yeah.
So we started the the the the company started with basically
three releases which were the 17th century minimalist which is
a game that that that that I that I wrote and and and design
and then two manifestos omnivorous interpretations and
and we also had some other stuff in the works by then But those
three releases were the ones that kicked off like when when I
had the site pretty much done and I pressed you know I pressed
the button to go live. That's what we were selling back
back then and and so those those and the idea for for for the to
kick off games Omniverse did like the agenda was mostly to do
some to bring into the OSR or to contribute further because
there's obviously good and lots of of excellent people doing
doing that. And pursuing that agenda was to
do more artistic and conceptual stuff within this this niche
this this this this sphere let's call it that.
So the the idea with the manifestos Omnivorous was was to
do a collection and an RPG Zine collection that was, you know
based on an artistic manifest. So there's a bunch, you know
there's there's a lot of of artistic manifests out there.
We, we, we, we, we were inspired by the, the one, the the
Scandinavian movies, the Scandinavian film, I think it's
called Dogma 95 or something. And we were inspired by early
20th century artistic manifests as well.
And we kind of created this idea of, you know, let's put together
an artistic manifest with 10 like rules or guidelines and and
give those to authors we like and admire and let them
interpret that and the and let them interpret the manifest
however they want. And come up with with a book.
And the idea there was obviously to do something conceptual to
create like an artistic space individually the modules.
It doesn't, it doesn't really matter if the interpretation is
is you know, better here or worse there or you know, if it's
more faithful here or less faithful in that one.
The idea was to create like an artistic space and then to
compliment that we were doing very minimal and light rules
game with a focus on graphic design layout.
How we present the physical format is very important to us.
How we present games to the players and the readers and and
obviously we wanted also to do something really unique and
weird and original and very conceptual.
And so that Robo Jungle was also in the works then and it was
released a couple of months after the company started.
And the idea there being, you know, to kind of somehow create
something that's, you know, it can also be appreciated just by,
you know, by people that don't play games, that just listen to
music. But to create something very
original, create a setting, a proper setting, a a gamable
universe as we call it, that is not presented as a book.
That was the main, the, the main drive like for for that, for
that specific release. Because usually when when people
say, you know, here's a new setting, I have a new setting,
it's almost exclusively a book, right.
It's almost presented in the format of a book.
So we try to do something different, something unique.
And the the main agenda I have, like I have a phrase here that I
have, that I have in my wall that I never had the courage to
to publish because I don't know maybe it sounds arrogant or
something but what we're trying to do since the beginning, since
these first releases that you know well you got me going.
So I please tell me when to shut up.
No, keep going. No, this is this.
Is This is why we do this, So keep going.
So the the phrase is trying to blur the lines between games,
art, music and literature. Probably failing that that's
something that I always wanted to to to to put out there is
like games on reverse mode and I like maybe I will someday but
that's kind of how I think about the company.
We're like we're we're not exactly an RPG publisher we're
actually an arts brand that happens to specialize in games
that's how that's at least how I think about games on reverse
right from the start and and yeah I was very fortunate to
meet people that kind of had this vision and went along with
with the project and maybe the at the beginning at least most
importantly were the Lena and and Nando who are our in house
designers. They're a couple that lives in
the north part of Portugal, and they they're they they are, they
are graphic designers that have nothing to do with games.
They hate playing games. They know nothing about games.
They they do a lot of work for like the artistic Milia in
Portugal, like literature, poetry, performance, different
arts and art spaces. And kind of the idea was they
brought some of that, you know, minimalist and artsy aesthetics
to the role-playing industry via games on Nivers.
So that's kind of like, so this is, you know, all of this to say
that this is kind of what started games on Nivers, our
agenda kind of like what we envision ourselves doing.
And yeah, that's that's mostly it.
I really appreciate your the very like artistic forward take
that you take with games on Nimbus.
It's interesting we were talking to Watt from Cloud Empress last
yesterday also discussed really like this, trying to be more of
an artistic pursuit than like more or less creating content to
be consumed for them. Like the kind of art forward
like minimalist RPGs that you have.
How do you find because you have like a limited offering of like
your minimalist RPGs, but they're so like robust and
within a single like like Vaultivar and or haunts Almanac
or mouse Ritter. Like you have these beautiful
experiences, like how do you find these creators or do they
find you and how do you decide what fits with your like?
Vision. Well, for instance, with Mouse
Ritter, it was mostly me chasing Isaac for a couple of months
before he said yes to to publishing with us.
So the story is I played the game right when I was starting
games of Niverse. So this was probably January
2020. And there was a friend here,
Andre Tavage, who who was like, oh, you know, I found a game on
itch about little mice, you know, in a dangerous world.
And I was like, yeah, OK, you know, like, do I care about
this? Do you know what I mean?
Like, do I want to play this? He's like, no, you should try
it. And I was like, OK, let's let's
go. I completely fell in love with
the right at character creation, like, what Isaac did with Mouse
Richer is absolutely incredible. Like the design, his minimalist
style, it's really the compact layout, the way he thinks about
the game, the tools that he offers, how the adventures are
presented in, in very minimalist, in a very minimalist
style. It's so good.
And so in line with, I think you know, Mouse Reader is to some
extent we defined how Mouse Richer would be presented to the
world. But Mouse Richer was an
absolutely elementary piece in defining what games and universe
is and how and what games and universe wants to show and
present to the world. So Isaac is a really good friend
now and I'm so happy to that he said, yes, it's funny because he
was like, Oh no, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to.
I I do this just for this, you know, very do it yourself style.
I want to keep control of things.
I'm like, yeah, but you keep control of everything.
Just let me publish it. You have the copyright.
And so after a few months, he saw the insectary.
I remember he he talking, he talked about the insectary,
which was a little scene that we did at the start of the company
and he was like, oh, this is very impressive in terms of of
game design maybe, yeah, maybe. In terms of graphic design maybe
Let's do mouse read. So when he said yes, yeah, we
started, I started working with Isaac and trying to create
because mouse read existed as a PDF only.
So we had to do what we call product development and product
design is how and that's that's the thing that that I that I'm
that I'm that I think that I do the best these days.
This product design is people you know presenting an idea to
me and I work with the designers and people here and the printer
to how can we make this really special physically.
And that's kind of the work I think we did with Mouse Reader.
So in the case of Mouse Reader, it was definitely me chasing
Isaac around for a bit And then for instance with Frontier Scam
we was completely the opposite. Like Carl Druid sent me almost
the finished version of the book and he was like, do you want to
publish this? I was like, yes, I want to
publish this. This is really good in most
cases. You know a lot of people send me
stuff and in most cases it's not.
I don't think it's in line with with with what we're trying to
do or the timing is not right. But these are the two extremes.
Some sometimes I really like something and I try to convince
people to to be published by us. Other times it's just, you know,
people sending us stuff and then we we we go, we go through it
and we we create the project. Yeah, So it's, it really
depends. There's there's not one formula
there. Totally makes sense.
In terms of like what what you were saying about, if I can just
add one thing that I find really interesting about about Mouse
Reader and even even in those more even in our our like this
is such a silly thing to say. But even in our most mainstream
games and Mouse Reader is definitely the most mainstream
game we have is is the one that has the biggest like I think
that Mouse Reader like the sales for Mouse Reader are actually
higher than everything else combined at games which is
something that that's really mind blowing but but it's just
how you know it's how it is. It's like it's such a
phenomenon. Mouse Reader is such a
phenomenon. I'm really happy to to to have
published it with with Isaac. But one thing that you were
talking about like even in these more mainstream ish games, how
do we, how do we make them art scene somehow and conceptual And
one thing that I think we almost did that inadvertently to be
honest. But if you look at what we did
with the estate, I think it's a very unique idea in even in the
OSR space. So normally you have like a
designer or a company or a creator creates the Canon for
the game, right? So here's the game how I
presented, how I envision it, how I see it, the aesthetics,
how I usually think about it and how I present it to the world,
right. And then they have like a third
party license where they let people do whatever they want
with them and whatever they they they wish to do right with, with
with that game. What we did with the estate was
something unique and very in some and and bit conceptual
somehow which is you know we also have the Canon with the
Mouse Reacher box set and we also have the third party
license. But what we did to the estate
was create an official product that brings 11 different visions
from 11 different creators for mouse reachers.
So even in the case did, the estate is kind of like and a a a
mess and a mesh of different interpretations of mouse reader.
And making that an official product I think is a very unique
thing and I think it worked out really, really well.
So, yeah, I also wanted to highlight that.
Yes, I think every single person who's and been in contact with
the estate as as like a game and product is like, yeah, this is a
massive success so. Yeah I you know we love MASH
ROTOR as a game it's it's absolutely fantastic like you
said what what Isaac did with with into the odd and and Karen
and with with mice and everything is fantastic.
But I will say if it was printed like differently like I don't
know if it would still have the the reach and success that it
does the the mouse or box set is so stunningly well put together
and crafted and so well thought out.
Like you open it up and you're like I even have like a marker
and I have all of these punch out things and everything.
It's so beautiful. And then this state just feels
like, like it does feel artistic, like it feels like
this luxury item you have with it and like H1 being like this
specific color, which kind of reminds me of the manifest of
omnivorous kind of vibe a little bit too.
How they can only be like two colors and everything in H1 and
gets its own vibe and color. I mean together, you know, it
does. It feels like a luxury TTRBG
item. And still, I mean it's still
pretty affordable for for you know, 2 box sets to come with
it. But yeah, like, I don't.
I don't if if someone else would have published it with a
different vision, I I'd be curious to see if it would be as
successful as it is because of what you brought to it and and
just how well it fits what it was also trying to be.
Mm hmm. Thank you.
Thank you so much for the kind words.
Yeah, that's exactly what what what we tried to do.
I think Isaac had such a fantastic game and idea and we
tried to you know elevate it further somehow and and
presented in in the best way we we could think of and and yeah
the estate is is exactly you're exactly right the estate all the
the modules in the estate are printed in just two colors so
combined they look like a rainbow but individually they
they're only two colors and they have really different
aesthetics. So we didn't, we didn't want the
the creators that we invited to do this.
We didn't want them to feel like they had to be constricted or re
or or they needed to fit or to adjust or adapt their style.
Two months future. We just wanted you know do your
thing, do you know do put your own style in your heart into
doing like a mouse richer adventure and we will try to
somehow create the coherence afterwards with this.
So that was the hard part with the estate because we invited
authors and were like do whatever you want.
The original idea of the estate was like the original idea was
do an adventure, and we weren't even thinking of creating a
connection between the adventures.
And then one day I was talking to Isaac and it's like someone
did grandfathers talk and someone did an armor and someone
did something like a little Chapel abandoned Chapel and and
and I was like OK maybe this doesn't this all fit in like one
of these rural estates kind of like like and we started
thinking about that after. So I think we we gave a lot of
creative freedom to to to the creators and I think it turned
out you know really it it it made a unique a very unique
release. It's not it's not common that
you see an official release for such a known game have so many
different aesthetics inside it's it's very uncommon.
So I think we're very, we're very happy how that unfolded.
Yeah. We are too.
I mean, it's like I. Think we all are.
Yeah, I think we're all. It's just like.
I said you, you really knock the park knocked out of the park
with that one. And you know aside from Astro,
two of the two of the big games you have are we we talked about
a little bit was Frontier Scum, which recently had a Kickstarter
to do a new version of that in Baltimore as well.
So you said Carl Druid came to you with Frontier Scum basically
done. And I know Carl was on and we
talked a little bit about the cover and stuff like that.
But what what what was, what was kind of the difference between I
know you said you chased on Isaac and and and Carl came to
you. But like what?
What, what makes the difference when you actually sat down to
produce that, when you when you were given something that was
basically done, like what? What did you need to do to get
that into our hands with with the, the cover and everything
that we have now? So yeah, I think the first
version that I saw of Frontier Scum had about 40 something
pages and then it it expanded into 60 or so pages, which is
the current version. So we definitely it was, it was
it was pretty much done a game. But I thought it would be cool
if Carl expanded some bits and I said, you know, maybe you should
do like kind of like an NPC generator or some loot or some,
you know, say add more stuff to the book, which he agreed to.
And then he worked a bit on that.
Frontier scom also started as a Morburg compatible product, like
a more hack. I don't necessarily like the
word hack, but it was like kind of like a Morburg hack, right?
And I said to I told Carl, look, we really love this, but we're
not. We're not in terms of what we
publish and how we vision games and we're not a company that
wants to publish content like content for other games.
You know what I mean? I'm not this is not in terms of
to preserve the identity of games omnivorous and what we're
doing. And so I told, I asked and I
suggested to Carl if he was OK with you know, kind of like
rewriting some bits of the setting here and there to make
it. You know, obviously Mark Borg is
one of probably the greatest, the biggest inspiration for
Frontiers Come, but not make it a complete hack somehow of the
game. So that changed a bit then and
then when we had like a final PDF, the challenge there was how
do we present, like how do we physically make this book?
How do we present this book to the world and the challenge
there in terms of like my, my our idea here, me and like I
talked, obviously talked with in house designers and Carl was
always part of the conversations obviously.
And we were like, how can we create something that at the
same time feels and looks premium but also beat up at the
same time And roughed up like that was that was kind of like
what drove us in terms of the concepts or to find the the
final product here because we frontier scum, you know, being
frontier scum, a 19th century ish, you know, acid western
trip. It kinda made sense that the
book looked kind of like unfinished somehow or beat up.
But also we don't want, we didn't want to present something
to to our players in our readers that you know, looked like shit,
Obviously so. It's a fine line, you know.
So what can we do here? And we had lots of it.
Like one of I remember one of the ideas was doing like a
leather cover, kind of like looking looking like an old
Bible somehow, you know, this old Bible.
But the problem there was that the book is only 60 pages.
So in terms of the the thickness of the book is is not it's, it's
not. We didn't have much to work with
in terms of the thickness of the book.
So it would look a bit odd. It would look, it would probably
look like a restaurant menu with that, with that thickness.
You know what I mean? Yeah.
So we had, yeah, we had to think about something else and doing
like the exposed binding with like a crude stamping on top of
the rock, I think it turned out pretty cool and and well we did
won a nanny for it. So I think it's validated out
there at large. When did you all decide on the
Like Magazine esque aesthetic for Frontier scum?
Because that's a very like. There was already a part of it
when when I received the first PDF and that was an absolute,
you know, factor in me wanting to to publish Frontier SCOM.
It was already presented like that.
Then Carl drew it. I mean, Isaac is is is also
really, really good and is a genius with compacted tight
layout. But Carl in terms of like layout
and graphic design is just unbelievable.
He's really, really, really good.
And so it was when when I first saw From Tears come, it was
already with that aesthetics. And that was definitely a factor
in me wanting to to publish it. That makes a lot of sense.
It is. It's like in a really amazing
presentation. And yeah, I think it also hits
that very like unique. And I, I and I obviously, you
know, I'm for all that I have said for the past half an hour
or so. Obviously for me like design,
text and art, they're all equally important.
It's it's not like the text is, is is the most important thing.
And then layout, you know, it's everything combined contributes
to the experience of reading and playing and immersing yourself
in that setting in that world, in that book.
So that's all for me, equally important.
So when somebody sends me stuff, if they just send a text, I'm
usually not, you know, I need to, I need to understand the
vision that someone has in terms of aesthetic, the aesthetic
vision that somebody has for that, for that project, for me
to kind of like feel it somehow and feel the connection to it
and feel and feel excited to to be a part of it.
So, So yeah, I think that's definitely a factor in in
everything, in everything we do. So I mean specifically about
Frontier Scum as well and you talk about the text when 'cause
I know Brian Yacha did a lot of the setting writing for that
too. Was that all prior to to the the
original draft getting to games omnivorous or was that kind of
like a with you guys as well? Or was that mostly Carl and
Brian with the setting stuff? No, the setting stuff was was
Carl and Brian mostly and they already had it.
You know they already had the version of it in the first in
the first draft that that that that they sent.
But then we kind of like rewrote some bits and parts to to to to
adapt to to our editorial lines basically that that's what it
what it was. Yeah, I think.
And you just had a a Kickstarter happened not too long ago.
Tides of rot. So and not only you know similar
to kind of what you do with Dead Robots and PJS and Regnant,
there's a an album that comes with it but also just as a
stunningly beautiful looking alt kind of like Red Ink Frontier
Scum. So what was the impetus to
reprint it and then to want to put the the album out with it,
as well as this kind of this exclusive variant for it?
So this was all this was was, was Carle ideas, To be fair.
So Carl really liked what we the collaboration we did with with
Johann and Pele for putres and Pregnant for the more portic LP,
right. So that was such a big moment
for for for me personally and for all of all like the the
people that that are close to to us here at that to me at get
games on the universe. So we started the company in
2020 and a few months off like in the summer or something or
like you know discussing with with Johann and Pele like do
should we do like Mark Borg LP and stuff.
So with such a huge moment for me personally, because I was, I
was one of the original backers of of Mark Barks.
So I was such a fan of the game, you know what I mean?
And I. Missed it.
I had a very big life event happening at the time, so I was
like, how did I miss this game? This is perfect for me and I
went back and I was like oh I had other stuff happening like I
the the flail cover is is is. You don't have that.
You don't have. That I don't it's it's near the
top of my grail list as well so. I think I have.
I have, I have mine there. I have mine somewhere.
I think I have mine. But yeah, I was it was, I was
such a fan and I started, you know, I started talking to you
and then they accepted and you know my life changed with Mouse
Reacher and Mark Borg in the same year.
It was just insane, you know, having a new publisher and then
by the end of the year doing LP with Mark Borg and releasing
Mouse Reacher, like that's when I decided to go full time with
this. So I was, I was back then I had
the job and I quit the job after year one with the starting the
company because it went really well.
And Carl was really excited about the idea of doing an LP
because musically we had some similar tastes somehow here and
there with with some bands that we both liked.
And he was really into the whole LPRPG concept and he was really
a fan of Mark Borg. Obviously he he, he won a lot of
Venice with Mark Borg doing the digital content and digital
stuff for the game. So he was like, you know, do you
want to do an LP for Frontiers government?
I was like, sure, let's do it by now.
And he wanted to do your His original vision was doing like a
splatter crawl kind of thing with lots of glory art and
splashes of blood and and the LP, the vinyl itself will look
like it's just like a splatter of blood or something or blood
stain. So that was kind of like his his
vision for this. And and I think that when we
were doing the final adjustments to to the print ready files for
Frontiers come, he showed me like a version with just red ink
of the book. And I was like oh, maybe we
should, you know, we should, we should keep this for later.
So when when the LP came up, I was like, oh, maybe do you want
to, if you want to go back to that idea.
And we published like a limited Sprint run of the book with in
red ink and you change a little bit of the art and it's going to
be a fun thing to have. So that was mostly mostly it.
It's it's something that we think it's interesting.
It's very artsy somehow and I think it's it's nice to have
like a different to have a print run of the book that is not just
the cover that is different, but it's actually different
throughout somehow and also create something that matched
the vibes of of the vinyl of Tides of Rod.
So all of those factors together drew us to to to making this.
So yeah, that was, I think that was it.
As soon as I saw the the Kickstarter and saw even just
like the images that were there with like the red and how like,
I mean because we we played Frontier Scum on stream like a
bunch of times. I've read it a bunch.
It's a fantastic game. So I know like the art pieces
that are in it. And when I see one that's like
the head is just like a red splatter.
And all this stuff and even even the color of the red is it just
seems to like fit so perfectly that it's one of those things
like as soon as you see it you're like, of course this is
the thing like this is exactly how this thing should be.
So it's really cool to see. Something that's done so well
and then another variant of it that's you know seems to be done
equally as well. So it's it's what we.
Haven't decided yet. And this is a confession that
I'm making now. What We haven't decided.
It is how we're going to present the cover of this of this
edition. So we shall see.
I don't think we are just doing like a red ink version of it.
We are probably doing something else with it.
I don't. We we we're not sure yet.
We'll we shall see. Going to change up the the, the,
the material of the cover or just the the images and stuff,
we'll see. I we, I don't know we haven't
decided yet. It's exciting like we're
probably going to decide next week on what to do.
It's we also have to you know to consider the limitations of of
the printers we work with. They, they are, you know,
they're capable of doing a lot of stuff, but sometimes they say
no, this is Andrea, we cannot do this.
It's or we can, but it costs like €15 per book or whatever.
And they're like, OK, like let's not do that.
So we haven't decided yet. We haven't decided that we're
going, we're looking into it next week probably.
It's almost like we have everything pretty much done.
It's going into production in early January.
We have pretty much everything done.
The music is done, just need some mixing music.
Is is is going to be a fun ride. Interesting, very different from
what we did with Putras and Sregnant and Electric Micro Up
even. It's very different but it was
different. Also it was a collaboration with
with with Alex Figuedo which who who is a good friend of mine is
a Venezuelan music musician and producer who lives in in
Brussels currently and and he played he he he was one of the
musicians that played in that rubble jungle and electric
mangrove but now he he's like the lead producer for for this
record for for ties of rod. So it will sound a bit
different. It will sound more unpolished,
more raw, more in the face. You know what I mean?
Less produced somehow, But that's mostly an aesthetic
option to go with the game. So yeah, I mean, that makes
perfect sense for tides of rock, frontier scum, like, yeah.
It's a nice like I'm so happy with Tides of Rock because it's
such not your conventional western adventure or setting
like it's whalers whaling town lots of rain there's floods
there's it's it's really really different from your typical like
desert setting or whatever which is the conventional way of you
know representing westerns and western stuff.
So I'm really, really excited for for this one.
I think it's fantastic and I think that's that's also what
what like going back to the to our to the agenda games on
universe that we somehow, you know think of of games as a form
of art or an artistic expression.
And I think games are really unique.
Not only fantastic but interesting, but unique mediums
to explore and advance the the horizons of certain genres.
You know what I mean? In certain archetypes.
So if you have like the western genre or the sci-fi genre or
whatever, then movies can contribute to expanding those
genres in certain ways. And you know, literature too.
And games also do that in very specific and and very unique
ways. And I think, you know, Frontier
Scum is actually a very cool interpretation of or a different
vision of what an Western can be.
And obviously that could also be the case.
You know, you could also do a movie with that vibes, the
Frontier scum vibes. But I think that you know games
are very unique mediums in expanding these and and giving
new life to certain established genres and and and I think we're
very happy to be to be a part of of it's exciting to to people.
Yeah, I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense like lending,
like giving people the ability to like voice their own story
within a given genre. Absolutely.
He's going to, like, push that genre beyond, like, I think the
Hollywood esque cliches that we all come across.
Mm hmm. I had a question and I totally
blanked. Ryan, you asked a question.
Well, your other big release faults of Arm talk about genres,
talk about something like totally different than than
Mouse Rider and and Frontier Scum, How did we're basically
like just going through the catalog being like so how did
you do? This how did.
You do that. But how?
So how did you do Vault Savar? Like what?
What what? What?
What brought Leo to you guys? And what was the decision to to
turn those scenes into this beautiful blue book?
I was, I I I was. There was a moment I think in
2021 late 2021 maybe that I was like looking for new stuff to
release the year after and and I was like you know what is out
there that that I the idea being you know what is out there that
we could kind of do the same thing as we did with Mouse
Raiders. So what is a nice game that
doesn't have a very, that doesn't have a very known
physical format but it's a nice game in digital format, in PDF
format. So how you know how what is out
there And and and I I found Vaults of ARM online and and I
thought OK this is a really really really cool game that is
kind of scattered in different genes and stuff.
So maybe you know Leo would would accept us publishing like
a proper deluxe version of this with Gontijo doing the graphic
design. So Gontijo, yeah, the first time
Gontijo worked with us with with the Haunted Almanac and then it
was such a wonderfully put together book that I was like,
OK, let's let's continue with Vaults of Iron and let's have
Quantizio do Vaults of Arne as well.
And then again we went into like product design and how are you
going to present this. And the idea, you know, it was a
it's the setting is a blue desert.
So obviously having a very blue book made sense and and we
wanted to do something special with the cover which we hadn't
done before And the idea of creating this BA relief with the
with the cover, it's actually, I don't know if you if you realize
this, but if you look at at the cover, just the relief, right.
It's actually a topography of a desert.
Yeah, it definitely. It definitely like re like reads
like it's a topographical map, yeah.
Exactly, yeah. Incredibly.
Stylish. And maybe I'm completely wrong,
but I remember when they did the review of it, you even even on
the PDF cover you put that same texture like into the PDF cover
too, so you could still see the the lines and everything on that
as well, yeah? It was, it was a hard chart like
because it doesn't really exist, right.
Like that. So it's like, should we put it
in the PDF or not? And it's like in the end, you
know, Contiguous said, yeah, let's do it.
And I'm like, OK, sure, sounds good.
But yeah, that that was, that was basically the story behind
Vault so far. And I really liked the game.
I contacted Leo. She was really pleased with with
with the whole thing and he he said yes.
And we started working on it. And then, you know, I did a lot
of editorial work with with the book because I had to.
You know, one thing is having this presented in different
scenes. Another thing is having this,
you know, in a coherent book. So I had to change a lot of
things around and I had to create a new structure somehow
for for all of this content. And yeah, I think it's it's, it
looks it, it's really, it's a nice book.
It's almost sold out again actually we only have like 40
copies left and it's after after this round sells.
We're not sure if we're doing more to be honest that maybe we
are, you know maybe in a year or two, but we're not, not for the
near future. And and we when this sells out
we we will have sold 2000 copies of this book which for us is is,
you know is, is is a considerable printer.
Have you ever thought about like, doing another collected
edition of Because like I know that Leo on his Patreon has like
a ton of other like PDF scenes because I have all of them.
Have you ever thought about doing another like kind of like
the estate? Almost, but like just I guess
single creator under the collection?
There have been, there have been talks about it.
And so maybe that's a possibility, yeah, But maybe
later towards next year. So I know I'm.
Only asking for me, you know. I'm like, listen, I need to get
that walls in, you know? I have like there's there's a
bunch of projects coming. Next there's, let me see, 1/2,
34567. We have like 8 or 9 projects
before that to be released. So it's a bunch of stuff in the
works. So could you give us like any
kind of sneak peek in, like what the future of Games Omniverse
looks like? So we have.
So we have two more manifestos, Zinn's in print right now.
So they will probably be available early next year and
these will be the last two iterations of or interpretations
of this, the manifest. So it will be the last two
scenes in the collection and they will be by two designers
that live reside in Portugal, which I think is interesting,
which I think is very interesting.
So it's I when at some point in the company's path, like maybe
two years into having started games on reverse, I thought that
we somehow should use manifestos, the manifestos
collection to feature and highlight emerging game
designers or people, you know have an opportunity to publish
something. Not just because most of of of
the people that that did that did stuff for us was like kind
of like self published or creators that did start us from
their own. So we thought that, you know,
maybe it would be cool if we give them some space, you know,
to do their own thing and not having to worry with physical
production. And you know, you know what I
mean, So, so these, so we have two new manifestos coming soon.
Then we have two books coming in March, maybe March, April which
I cannot talk about business, I cannot talk about.
And then we obviously in April have Tides of rods coming April,
May, June, some some some time somewhere in that time frame the
new Frontier scum. Then we I want, I want to do a
new I Yeah. Well I'm going to announce it
here why not. Amazing.
So there's I want to do a new a new Undying Sense bottle C
setting, right? So I wanna do, I wanna do a new
one and I've already written it and now Kevin is starting the
illustrations and let's see how, how long that takes.
But we're aiming for a new Kickstarter somewhere in the
spring maybe next year for this. And it's going to be like an
Arctic ice setting, basically, so like a nice desert or a nice
wasteland. So it's going to be like the
nine cents in bottled sea with the hexes, right?
But it's going to be like, I think it's the, the current
title is like the Frostlands or something, the Frostlands or
something Frostlands. So we still need to work on it.
But yeah, so we also have that coming.
We are thinking about new mouse Ritter content and there's
another secret projects that I cannot talk about.
So yeah. For the ones you can't talk
about, honestly, like, I'm so stoked.
I'm like, oh, what's coming up, dude?
Well, that sounds like a sounds like you have a really good
year. A lot of fun logistics work.
You know, yeah, it's always, I cannot stand still.
Like I always tell people, OK now I'm going to, you know, I'm
going to calm down and just going to think about life for,
you know, a couple of weeks or a month or so and, you know, and
then there's, you know, I can never do it.
There's so much, you know, so many exciting creators to work
with and so many exciting stuff and projects and things that I
start, you know, I start to get a bit nervous of not doing
anything. So I always have to you know
have like 7 or 8 projects in the works in different stages so.
I mean that's the future but there's also like the the
current thing that's happening right now.
You've got you've just released a book really recently and and
we just talked about Balta Barn with with Guntijo.
You just dropped the job which is written by oh look at that,
it's written by you. So first of all, my goodness the
graphic design in this is absolutely stunning.
But what what made you want to do like a a a heist game and and
I guess just talk about the the job a bit if you could.
Of course, yeah. Contigo made an excellent,
excellent job with that, and it was mostly, if not all of it his
his vision there and so. Because honestly, my original
idea was to do something like Ocean's 11 aesthetically so much
more like early 2000s or you know, like I remember seeing all
those movies like Italian Job in Ocean's 11 that came out like
approximately in the span of a decade like late 90s, early
2000s. And and and then I talked to
Conti and it's like, Oh yeah, but I want to do like a 60s
aesthetic. It's much nicer.
And I was like sure go for it. Like I I trust you, you know, I
trust. I trust your taste, your vision,
your work. So absolutely do do whatever you
you want with this. And and yeah, so these days I
started the company with the idea that was going to publish,
you know, I was going to publish my stuff and other people stuff,
but mostly my stuff. And I found that what I think
I'm basked at is actually working in collaboration with
other people to get something, you know, to the point of of
turning something, you know, rendering it really special
somehow in terms of working with them in collaboration, in terms
of product design, game design. So that's what I like to do the
most these days actually is work with other people and see their
vision through and and and collaborate with them to create
something really, really unique and special.
And so for the the the past the past few years I haven't been
that much of of an author actually I did the 17th century
minimalist game I'm I'm the main game designer for stuff like a
Nine Sands and Bottled Sea. But mostly I was publishing, you
know, I was, I was working at Games of Nieves, publishing
other people's works and their vision.
So I kind of at some point I was like maybe, you know, I should
do a game. I should do another game at some
point. And I was, I was seeing a lot
of, I was revisiting a lot of these heist movies and and heist
series. I remember seeing Lupine as well
and it was like you know maybe there's a game here.
There's a game to to be designed here and and and I also wanted
to experiment because as I said Games Omniverse is known for
being most or for sitting mostly in the OSR and Sr. sphere
somehow. So we publish games that are
somehow either retro clones or compatible with retro clones or
they fit in that creative space somehow, where you're kind of
reinventing the traditional approach to role-playing games,
right? And our settings are kind of
like system agnostic. And the idea of doing something
system agnostic I found is very much something that is almost
exclusive to the OSR. Because the OSR and the NSR, the
games are so compatible with one another that you don't really
need to explain the game. You can just create an adventure
or or a setting that people will understand vaguely how to how to
play it or how they should run it.
So that was that's you know games of Nervous and most of the
stuff we published you know is within that that framework or
that structure. But I wanted to to experiment.
I I I remember I was reading a lot of like more narrative games
like Fiasco or Dredd or Tent Candles.
So these games that are that they have a very different
approach to role-playing games into the playing experience
where it's much more the so-called play to find out and
the emergent fiction things where nothing is predetermined
right? Like there's not a setting, a
pre written setting or adventure to be explored, but everything
kind of like emerges during. During gameplay and the way the
the way the game works and the tools it offers to both players
and to GM is to kind of like create that world while you're
playing. So I wanted to to also
experiment or to do something that in that space, let's say in
that in that creative RPG space. So I kind of I was like I I
tested for a while and I came up with with with the design for
the current design for the job, which is like, OK, it has a
bunch of narrative elements and you easily identify them for
games like Fiasco or Apocalypse World, even games like that.
It has a a a bunch of of tools that that are directly inspired
by those games. But I always had a problem
playing those games that somehow I lacked some structure in the
games. Somehow.
Some, some sometimes I had some, you know, creative blocks.
I didn't know the you have to be constantly improvising, right?
And sometimes it's not, it's not easy to do.
So I had some problems with that.
So I I I wanted to do something that was halfway between, you
know, the traditional or the more traditional approach and
the more narrative approach. And my way of doing it was
creating this, this game. The job that what it does is the
game is played in two phases and the first phase, which takes
about an hour, an hour and a half is basically the players
creating their own module. So the the what the game does is
OK, you give your players just the smallest of brief, like the
object they're stealing, the location you know the object is
AT, and then just a bunch of vague complications, right?
Like security cameras or alarms or security staff, you know,
something like that. And then you just let your
players, you allow space for your players to actually create
the module that you're running after.
So they plan the heist. They have to plan the heist.
They have to write down like 12 scene the scenes, right?
And the scenes can be you know, character A approaches the the
security staff and tries to convince them that they should
be allowed in. OK, scene 1, scene two player B
somersaults from a helicopter into whatever like the location
and and tries to break into the roof via a rope or something
like that, right? And then you, you write these
1212 scenes and then you actually hand the plan to the GM
and the GM runs, runs it for you, right?
Obviously the game then gives you a lot of tools, a lot of, a
lot of like tools to complicate the narrative, to create chaos
and unpredictability in the narrative.
And then the IT uses a a dice, right?
A dice, a stack of dice. So when when players fail
actions, they have to stack dice, and when the tower
collapses, the tower of dice collapses.
Stuff can, bad things can can happen, and then if the tower
collapses the third time, the game ends, so you can actually
lose. It's a role-playing game that
you can lose, that you can lose. So these were the this is what
was going through my mind when I when I designed or when I came
with this with this idea was to create something that is new, is
narrative, has different mechanics from what, you know,
our customers and our readers and our players are accustomed
to. But somehow it but somehow
offering at the same time some tools for a more structured
game, because that's kind of like how I approach games and
how I like to run them and approach them.
So yeah, that's that's that's that's what went through my my
head and doing it. Yeah, I I think that jaws
fantastic and I really, I really love that structure.
I do also think it was funny, like talking about being very
inspired by Oceans 11, that kind of like highest thing, and then
being like, no, let's take it back to the 1960s, which is when
the original Oceans 11 came out. Exactly Frank Sinatra.
That was like, okay cool. Yeah, yeah, it's true.
And The Italian Job too. The Italian Job is also remake
from the 6th. So there were two moments.
There were two moments like the 60s were really big in heist
movies and then like the 90s, late 90s was another period of
then they kind of like disappeared in between that and
from there on after, well, there's a bunch of like remakes
currently but they're not very you know, they're not very
famous. They didn't do too well but but,
but yeah so that's that's that's what I was what I was thinking
about when when doing. I mean you know this this
there's this famous I I think people nowadays don't don't
don't pay attention to it anymore.
But there's this theory of game design, right, The GNS theory, I
think it's called the gamest narrative and simulationist.
So role-playing games are divided into like the gamest
games, the narrative games, and the simulationist games.
Game is being you're trying to beat the game somehow.
So stuff like, I don't know, Tomb of Horrors, right, You're
trying to to actually try to beat the dungeon somehow or not
get killed. And then there's the narrative
approach where you know nothing is predetermined, nothing is pre
written, It's all all about emerging fiction and the world
is built as the characters inhabited and even the
character. You don't create the back story
for your characters in this game.
The back story happens or unfolds or tells it or reviews
is revealed by playing the game right?
And then there's this simulationist approach where
kind of like I don't know, games like the One Ring or Blade
Runner or Dungeons Dragons where they have like very established
settings and your characters just inhabit those settings,
right? And with this game I tried to
create something that kind of like touched all three genres
somehow. So you have the game is where
you're actually trying to survive and beat the game by
completing the heist. You have the narrative approach
because nothing is pre written, nothing is predetermined when
you start the game, but you also have a little bit of simulation
is me in a sense, because actually the players kind of
like write their module beforehand somehow.
So I kind of like try to you know inspire myself in all these
different tropes and genres to create something that I thought
was was unique. And you know, I have no idea if
this game is going to be well received or not.
So far I've know, you know a handful of people that played it
besides me, that really enjoyed it.
So we shall see. The, the challenge is I, I know
personally, I know how to have a lot of fun with this game.
The challenge as a game designer is can you convey that to other
people, right. That's that's that's a
challenge. You never know.
You never know, Yeah. You know what's interesting?
I'm not a big Me and Hunter have talked about this before.
I'm not a big heist guy. Hunter's a big heist guy.
I love a good heist. Dude, but my my problem with
heist is always kind of. It always kind of feels like
you're at the whim of the GM, you know what I mean?
Like at any point they could be like, well, that was a drip wire
or Nope, you were on camera or whatever, like.
So I always feel like it feel always feels kind of contrived,
but the job feels very different because of those two.
Kind of like the start, the the phases of the game and how it is
will be gamified and stuff like that.
And that's what I was most excited for because I remember
when I first got it, I think I even said to Hunter I was like,
this is the highest game. I'm actually really excited for
this one, feels. It does feel like Ocean's 11.
It feels like we're making a plan and actually going with it
as opposed to just being like, OK, you go out the door, hope
nothing happens, OK, you go in the next door.
So yeah, I mean, the graphic design as well is just, you
know. Yeah, I think, I think the first
phase of the game is everything where you're actually you're
inviting or you're asking players to write kind of like
write their module, write what they're going to play.
In the second in the action phase, it it's it's mostly has
22. There's two advantages, the
first one being, you know you as the GM of the game, you actually
receive something, receive a bit of structure to play this game
afterwards. But it's also it, it's also a
very immersive element for the players as well, because it
really feels like you're planning a heist.
You're not only just planning the module for the GM to run,
you're actually as the character, kind of planning the
heist. And that feels that, you know,
at least with my groups it felt really it it felt like something
unique, something you don't see often in in in games, which I
think it was cool. Let's see what they received.
I really appreciate like when we like when designers and careers
bring these moments into like TTRPG is that maybe not
traditional moments where you're not like actively like, but
you're like sitting and planning and there's like a there's
another element to playing this game where you get to do it
collectively. I really very much enjoy things
like that and I and I agree. I think like the players, it
allows them to like buy in a little bit more and kind of get
excited about this plan that they're creating.
Incredibly, yeah. It's like instead of creating
characters, you know there, that moment when you sit for like an
hour or half an hour in most of the games, creating characters.
In this game I got rid of character creation entirely.
It's like characters don't have stats, don't have anything, they
just have 4 special abilities. That's it.
So I replaced character creation with module creation somehow.
That's like the innovation that, but I think it works out for
this case because I wanted to do, I really wanted to do a game
like this that is inspired by movies like Cube or Platform or
the exam. You know, these very like
dystopian, dystopian places where people are trapped and
need to navigate like a dystopian situation and they're
you know, and normally is the government that or that there's
an estate or military facility that somehow is trapping them
there or whatever. And I I I think I want to create
a game for that, but I'm I have no idea how to do it, so I have
to think about it. Well, don't worry.
We'll buy it. So yeah, yeah.
Secret. Project #3 for next year, you
know, and not only that, I mean the design, the game,
everything, but whoever your printers are do a damn good job
because the the texture on this too.
Just the actual print of the book is absolutely stunning for
anyone that doesn't have it like this, kind of like shiny bits on
the matte cover. It's absolutely gorgeous.
It's just every little detail is just taken all the way to the
end. So it's just it's so good, yeah.
Thank you. Yeah, we wanted to do something
special with the cover and we want and so we added like a UV,
not not a UV, it's a varnish, A glossy varnish to just the like
the the diamond there. So it kind of shines, right.
So it differentiates from the rest.
And it's interesting because these these things are not what
make a book particularly expensive to be honest.
You just have to be creative and know the right printers
basically. It's it's not a, it's not a
sometimes you. The problem is you don't.
Like I I see a lot of a lot of a lot of folks and creators out
out there, but they don't actually go to bookstores and
look at books. You know what I mean?
Yeah, that's such a big part of my life.
Like I go to a bookstore almost every week just to look at what
people are releasing in terms of covers like what materials they
use finishing. I I do lots of videos with ideas
and that's that's part of of of that's a big part of of I think
of our success in in and and our quality in doing these kind of
things. It's just you know going to
bookstores and looking around and see what what other people
are doing. Like if you go to for instance
if you go to my wife is is is is is a big fan of photography and
she collects a lot of photography books.
If you look to, if you go to like photography book
bookstores, the quality of of the books, it's off the charts
and the quality of the finishing and the materials and the
clothes and everything they use is.
So I, I, I go to these bookstores with them and instead
of looking at at the books themselves and at the content
right, I'm looking at like the covers and what they use and
stuff. So it's it's a matter of of
being you know of seeing what is out there and being creative
with that and asking the print because most printers can can or
a lot of them can do this. You just need to know what
you're asking basically. Yeah, well, I mean that's why.
That's why games I've never so games I've never So like that's
why the the the whole, the manifesto that you guys built
that you've built from not just manifestos omnivorous, but the
entire vibe of the company. I mean it's so consistent all
the way through especially across all the different genres.
You know there's this this through line of artistry and
just like peak like like I said productivity and attention to
detail that really makes a games on nervous game feel like a
games on reverse game. So it's just it's.
It's. More again, Yeah.
If you make it, we're we're gonna buy it.
So that's that's that's where we're at.
So, yeah, nice. Especially with all these
projects dropping. Yeah.
So, yeah. So listen, we really appreciate
you coming on the show. This has been fantastic to to
hear you talk all of these things.
We're talking about the job, the vinyls, everything.
Where can people find all of this awesome stuff that we've
talked about this entire time? So you can go to
gamesomniverse.com. That's our website, our web
store. You can join the mailing list in
the homepage there and we send, we don't send, we maybe send
like four or five emails per year.
So you're not getting a mail every week.
It's just when there's new stuff out mostly.
So there's that and you can find this obviously on on Twitter.
Well not Twitter now it's it's called something else.
It's Twitter. We're just.
Calling Twitter. Just we're just calling Twitter.
Twitter Games on Just search for games on Neighbors.
We have a very unique name. So it's not like there's a bunch
of stuff called Games on Neighbors out there.
So you have Twitter, you have Instagram, Facebook, and that's
about it. Because you know, there's only
so, so, so, so many social media I can handle by my side.
You know what I mean? Like I I'm not.
I I don't even particularly like social media to be honest.
In in in in in general. So I'm like, I don't.
Know if any of us really do, you know?
Yeah I love podcasts. I love being on shows like this
but like this like social media is like a bit.
So I'm but we try to stay active we're we're mostly active on on
on Twitter these days and we also have Blue Sky.
We also have Blue Sky. I I was convinced that I should
do that, and I did it so. Me too.
The easiest, the easiest is just join our mailing list and and
you'll be and you'll be warned of new stuff being released and.
You will be warned, Games. Ominous.
Yeah. Seriously.
I can't tell you how excited we are for all the projects next
year. We'd love to have you on again
anytime anything drops. And thank you so much for being
here again. I know you saying that you're a
fan of ours. It really means a lot to us and
we've been huge fan of years for a long time, so it's been
fantastic. I haven't getting a chance to
talk to you. Thank you so much.
It was a big, big pleasure to be here with you.
I hope I come back, you know, next year or whenever you.
Have to, Yeah. You absolutely have to, Yeah.
Just shoot me a message and we'll make it work.
So cool. Again, thank you so much for
being here. Yeah, and thank you everyone to
chat for being here as well. You can find all of our stuff at
our link tree at Slash, the Weekly Scroll.
And. And that's it for us today.
Again, thank you for being here and we'll see you all later.
Bye. Bye.