1
00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:16,880
Hello and welcome to the Weekly 
Scroll Podcast. 

2
00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:22,480
My name is Ryan. 
Oh and I'm Kayla, sorry I got 

3
00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:24,280
trimmed up immediately by my own
self. 

4
00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:29,000
No I'm Kayla Dice. 
I am a tabletop role-playing 

5
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,480
game designer who releases work 
as Rat Wave Gamehouse. 

6
00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,520
If you're familiar with any of 
my work, it might be from things

7
00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:42,520
like Terminal Transgender 
Deathmatch, Legend, Follow Me in

8
00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,880
the Night, Accursed Radio, 
Fiola, Taste the Bottom much 

9
00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,360
more. 
I bounce around genres a lot. 

10
00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,800
I tend to say that the thing 
that links my work is a focus on

11
00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,960
themes of connection and 
alienation, and at the moment I 

12
00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:01,720
am on Kickstarter crowdfunding 
for a new game called Psycho 

13
00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,280
Dungeon, which is a fantasy 
workplace action drama played 

14
00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:10,080
with no dice and no masters. 
Yeah, it's I there's so many 

15
00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,680
questions that come from from 
that introduction. 

16
00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:14,840
As you know, we don't write 
anything down here at all Is 

17
00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,600
tangents the name of the game of
the weekly short podcast. 

18
00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:22,120
But this is the third time that 
that you're here on the show. 

19
00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:23,720
So thank you for joining us once
again. 

20
00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,240
Thank you for having me back. 
Yeah, and one thing you 

21
00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,280
mentioned was Terminal, which I 
have right here. 

22
00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:33,640
Gorgeous book. 
Very excited to get it. 

23
00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,160
I think we we, we said this too,
right before the show. 

24
00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:37,280
It's bigger than I thought it 
was. 

25
00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:38,960
I don't know why I assumed it 
was AZ in size. 

26
00:01:38,960 --> 00:01:42,000
Maybe I didn't pay attention, 
but it is a thick boy and it's 

27
00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,120
full like 8 1/2 by 11. 
This is a lot of game right 

28
00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,920
here. 
Yeah, Yeah, it's I ended up 

29
00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,920
going with A4 partly just for 
like the ratio of it and partly 

30
00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:58,160
I liked how it opened up some 
more like layout spaces that I 

31
00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,320
felt that were interesting in a 
four. 

32
00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,280
But yeah, I'm really happy with 
the book. 

33
00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,600
I'm really happy it's in the the
hands of like the vast majority 

34
00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,320
of backers. 
It's on my web store now as 

35
00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,400
well, and I'll have some 
physical copies at UK Games 

36
00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,680
Expo. 
So yeah, that was a long sort of

37
00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,600
road to getting the physical one
out, and I'm very excited with 

38
00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:22,320
it. 
Psycho Dungeon is going to be a 

39
00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,440
five though, so that's going to 
be Zine's size, but it's 

40
00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,120
probably going to end up, I 
think it will be like it's less 

41
00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,240
actual words for sure, but I 
think it will probably have a 

42
00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,800
thicker spine than Terminal just
by virtue of being A5 rather 

43
00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,280
than a four, so. 
It'll be A5, it'll be perfect 

44
00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,080
bound or. 
Yeah, it'll probably, yeah, it 

45
00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,280
will almost definitely be 
perfect bound because I was 

46
00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:44,600
like, Oh yeah, probably. 
And then I'm like, no, I've, I'm

47
00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,800
the campaign's live and I've 
only budgeted for perfect bound.

48
00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:49,520
It's perfect bound. 
That's not changing. 

49
00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,760
There we go and the other one 
that like like I said, I put it 

50
00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,040
in a doom pile somewhere and I'm
very sad I wasn't able to find 

51
00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,240
it And and we said this before 
the 2nd the show is over, I'm 

52
00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,920
going to find it. 
But a ritual magic for besties 

53
00:03:00,920 --> 00:03:05,520
was the second time you came on 
and that's also in in hands of 

54
00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,520
people, including mine when I 
can find it. 

55
00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,000
How so between both projects and
a woman's on Kickstarter, 

56
00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:15,760
woman's on backer kit and both 
are fulfilled kind of how how 

57
00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,520
how's those last two projects 
been as far as like being on I 

58
00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,000
know because this is your third 
one now, at least of the three 

59
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,160
that I'm aware of, how was 
Kickstarter, how was backer kit 

60
00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,480
and and how was getting all of 
that out of your hands and and 

61
00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,120
into the hands of people? 
Yeah, so ritual magic 

62
00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,400
capacities, it was crowdfunder 
instead of backer kit and. 

63
00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,920
Crowdfunder, that's what it is. 
It's me I've so I've never done 

64
00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,200
Back Again and lots of people do
really recommend Back again. 

65
00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:45,520
I found Ritual Magic Capacities,
the crowdfund campaign. 

66
00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:49,920
There's a huge struggle, I think
with getting seen and getting 

67
00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,440
people to join up to crowdfunder
in a way that I even know in 

68
00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,040
terms of alternatives like 
backer kit doesn't seem to have 

69
00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,520
as much of that barrier. 
But it was a a struggle in that 

70
00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:05,400
sense. 
The thing I did in the end find 

71
00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,800
useful is I think I think I'd 
like planned out my time and how

72
00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,360
quick we're going to be doing 
the turn around. 

73
00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,800
So like, you know, it's kind of 
only a month apart that I sent 

74
00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,120
out the physical copies of 
Ritual Magic and Terminal. 

75
00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,839
Whereas Terminals campaign 
obviously ended like way before,

76
00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,560
but it was a longer Rd. there 
because while we'd finished the 

77
00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,560
writing and everything, once we 
finished the campaign, we'd then

78
00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,760
do all of the stretch goal 
writer's work because I had to 

79
00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:33,320
wait till the money was in to 
pay them. 

80
00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:35,840
There's more art coming in. 
I then had to do all of the 

81
00:04:35,840 --> 00:04:38,280
layout and then footprinting 
stuff. 

82
00:04:38,280 --> 00:04:40,560
At one point I had a fulfilment 
partner where things didn't 

83
00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:45,200
really just ended up being 
easier to split and do them 

84
00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,000
myself. 
So those two fulfillments for 

85
00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:51,280
the first time I'd done, I'd 
opened a store about like a 

86
00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:54,280
month prior, so I'd done some 
sort of, you know, posting and 

87
00:04:54,280 --> 00:04:57,120
shipping, but those two were the
first big fulfillments. 

88
00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,280
There's a lot of like learning 
curves, but yeah, I just, it's 

89
00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:05,560
really nice to get books 
physically in people's hands. 

90
00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:11,240
And yeah, to see and hear from 
people that they've they've 

91
00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,880
received their work, especially 
with terminal Ware, at least to 

92
00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,280
how my brain works, if something
that size, I find it so much 

93
00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:21,720
easier once it's physical. 
And so I'm excited for it to be 

94
00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:27,520
in, yeah, out in the world. 
Yeah, this is definitely one 

95
00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:29,440
that we're gonna chat about here
on the show at some point. 

96
00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,040
I for those in pockets line that
held up terminal. 

97
00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,200
The layout is beautiful. 
The art's beautiful. 

98
00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,400
I know I saw a lot of this 
prior, you know, when we were 

99
00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,760
going over stuff, I saw a lot of
things in like the the press kit

100
00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,200
and everything, but it's it's so
well done. 

101
00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,760
And I love a lot of these like 
spreads and pages. 

102
00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,120
Like I really love this page 
because the blue is a lot 

103
00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,600
different than a lot of what you
see in the background because 

104
00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,320
there's a lot more dark to it. 
So there it's just the art is 

105
00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,440
fantastic and it's just a 
really, really neat game. 

106
00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,440
I'm really excited to to dig in 
more and, and actually go over 

107
00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,920
that here on the show. 
Yeah, Golden Geist is a 

108
00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:09,840
brilliant artist and I can't 
give her enough sort of credit 

109
00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:13,920
and appreciation for just the 
sort of control of palette and 

110
00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:15,480
capturing the spirit of that 
game. 

111
00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,200
It absolutely won't be the game 
it is without that 

112
00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,840
collaboration. 
It's. 

113
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:29,360
How was it kind of handing over 
like so much of the way your 

114
00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,320
game visually is going to be to 
like one person, whether they 

115
00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,160
just like is was there anything 
difficult about that or did you 

116
00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,640
find it to be like like exactly 
what you wanted because they 

117
00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,400
were able to capture that? 
Like what? 

118
00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:42,480
What? 
How did that feel? 

119
00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:47,920
Yeah, I so Terminal was the 
first time I'd worked with an 

120
00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:49,120
artist. 
It was also the first time I'd 

121
00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:50,400
worked with an editor. 
Even. 

122
00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,240
No, that's not true. 
It's the first time I'd hired an

123
00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,080
editor for my own work. 
I'd been edited in other 

124
00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,920
contexts, but I yeah, it was, it
was a really interesting thing. 

125
00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:02,200
I remember like very early on I 
was just like, you know, what 

126
00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,200
stuff's useful for you, what 
stuff isn't. 

127
00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,080
And I think it was a lot of 
figuring out what she found 

128
00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:08,880
helpful. 
And for us, a lot of it was like

129
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:15,320
I gave as much sort of details 
as I could in odd direction for 

130
00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:20,440
anything like material. 
But I always trusted like any of

131
00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,720
the execution and blocking and 
stuff to her. 

132
00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,080
And that was because like that 
was the thing she, you know, 

133
00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,560
wanted and preferred having like
the the decisions around, 

134
00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:35,360
whereas she felt very confident 
when I'd been like super like 

135
00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,440
exact down to details that don't
get used on other things. 

136
00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,200
It's interesting. 
But also there's so many things 

137
00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:47,800
in Terminal specifically where I
feel it convey stuff of the 

138
00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,640
world that I think would have 
been hard to put into words. 

139
00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:55,760
I think like there's a lot of 
like explicit trans 

140
00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:00,160
representation in Terminal, but 
I also think like because of the

141
00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,920
art, there's a lot more sort of 
like, I don't necessarily want 

142
00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,560
to say subtle, but just like 
matter of fact representation 

143
00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,480
that comes from, yeah, just like
a very sort of beautiful 

144
00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:16,480
rendering of, of trans bodies. 
Yeah, I mean, like you said, 

145
00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,400
Gorman, the art is absolutely, 
absolutely stunning. 

146
00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,840
I mean, even just and the color 
like the one thing that I can't 

147
00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:24,680
ever get over the whole time, 
and I love it as much as just 

148
00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,560
the color scheme, like you said.
I mean the the kind of like the 

149
00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:34,159
vaporwave like matrix, kind of 
like computer but not computer, 

150
00:08:34,159 --> 00:08:37,240
which also helps with the binary
code over like the entire thing.

151
00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,919
Anyway, it was just such a it's 
a beautiful. 

152
00:08:39,919 --> 00:08:41,080
It's an absolutely stunning 
book. 

153
00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,360
And like I said, when you get 
pages that are completely like 

154
00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,160
kind of divorced from that vibe 
too. 

155
00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:49,200
It's so vibrant. 
It's it's it's good, good, good.

156
00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:50,360
Good job. 
I love this book. 

157
00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,280
That's great. 
Thank you, I really appreciate 

158
00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,280
it. 
And you're back in Kickstarter, 

159
00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:56,760
like you said with Psycho 
Dungeon. 

160
00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,560
So tell me about like what, 
what's the, what's the pitch for

161
00:08:59,560 --> 00:09:00,880
Psycho Dungeon? 
What are we doing here? 

162
00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:06,160
So Psycho dungeon takes place in
a sort of post dungeon fantasy, 

163
00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,480
like a modern setting but full 
of magic and high tech gizmos 

164
00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,840
called Glen James. 
Just a a modern city in there 

165
00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:18,000
and within the city when people 
like sort of when their their 

166
00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:22,440
troubles and traumas get too 
much, basically they emerge as a

167
00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:27,240
nightmarish physical structure, 
a physical psycho dungeon that 

168
00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,360
reflects all of their sort of 
pain and turmoil. 

169
00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:36,040
And then psycho plumbers are 
called in to sort of clear out 

170
00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,680
this dungeon, help someone get 
back from the the brink, from 

171
00:09:39,680 --> 00:09:44,200
the edge and close it off. 
And the description, the early 

172
00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,320
description, one of the first 
things I wrote for the game was 

173
00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,640
I described the role of psycho 
plumbers as, you know, one part 

174
00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,440
handyman, one part adventurer, 
one part therapist. 

175
00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,880
And I think that goes to the 
heart of what at least their 

176
00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,880
game is for the the characters 
you're playing, your people who 

177
00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:04,720
are overworked, not necessarily 
greatly adjusted, not 

178
00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,280
necessarily super protected by 
your workplace. 

179
00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,440
You're doing stuff that's really
meaningful to the people you 

180
00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,760
interact with, but also that 
stuff is often going to like 

181
00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,560
carry you home carry. 
You're going to end up carrying 

182
00:10:17,560 --> 00:10:21,240
it home with you and you're 
going to be struggling in the 

183
00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,160
sense it's a lot about mental 
health and surviving under 

184
00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,920
capitalism. 
And then it's also a a very 

185
00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,840
different kind of, I think 
tabletop dungeon crawler because

186
00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,280
it's mainly, you know, built on 
a belonging outside belonging 

187
00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,320
framework. 
There's no dice, there's no game

188
00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,080
master. 
There's just like a variety of 

189
00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:43,400
roles, procedures and all stuff 
that sort of supports a token 

190
00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,200
based economy. 
And, you know, it works great 

191
00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:47,960
for like a really fun sort of 
simple one shot. 

192
00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,240
But also I think there's so much
cool stuff in the game that 

193
00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,240
really lives and breathes when 
you just get a sort of longer 

194
00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,760
term story. 
It's got a sort of procedural 

195
00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:05,320
drama bent mixed with, yeah, 
sort of postmodern or a sort of 

196
00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,400
contemporary fantasy magical 
realist thing mixed in. 

197
00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:13,280
It's got some of the social 
commentary that has been picked 

198
00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,400
up a lot. 
Tanya Floka, who's a game center

199
00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:17,960
really like Red and gave me a 
pull quote. 

200
00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:24,840
Well, they said Psycho Dungeon 
is a post fantasy, post Blairite

201
00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:29,920
post like modernist Nightmare. 
And yeah, I think it it reflects

202
00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:34,200
a lot of anxieties from the real
world while also being a cool 

203
00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:38,280
game about being a screw up 
who's just doing their best. 

204
00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:45,400
Yeah, I you so lots of fun, 
interesting things going on with

205
00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,520
this that intrigues me a lot. 
We've been, I've had dream 

206
00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,520
apart, dream skew on my shelf 
and on our list to do for a 

207
00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,800
while. 
But for those that don't know, 

208
00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,120
can you tell us a little bit 
about blowing outside, belonging

209
00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,680
and then and then thereby also 
like no dice, no masters? 

210
00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:06,760
Yeah, so the first Belong 
outside Belong game I ever 

211
00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:11,240
played would have been Dream 
Askew, I think even before it 

212
00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,600
was published in like the Dream 
Rescue Dream Park game. 

213
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:18,920
It's invented by Avery Elder and
Benjamin Rosenbaum. 

214
00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:23,320
And then it's been featured in 
other games like Wander Home or 

215
00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:29,480
Tournament Ark or Our Haunt. 
And so yeah, there's no game 

216
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:31,920
master figure. 
There's, you know, people's 

217
00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:33,800
characters who will have 
playbooks. 

218
00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,440
And then there are often 
different setting elements in 

219
00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,800
these games where I think for 
instance, in dream and stuff 

220
00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:44,240
like sort of the toxic, the 
psychic maelstrom is one or 

221
00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:48,680
people representing sort of 
scarcity where you have access 

222
00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:52,120
to moves where like you can do 
these things, these stuff happen

223
00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,080
playing these element. 
And then there's sort of a token

224
00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,480
economy to your playbook 
characters where you're, you 

225
00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:03,480
know, making moves which give 
you tokens often because you're 

226
00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,280
putting yourself in a vulnerable
position in some way. 

227
00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,520
And then you can use those 
tokens to make your, your strong

228
00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,920
moves. 
It's, you know, it's been 

229
00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:14,800
evolved in lots of different 
ways. 

230
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:19,240
The main reason I describe 
Psycho Dungeon as no dice, no 

231
00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,800
masters, rather than I tend to 
say it's built on a belonging 

232
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,520
outside belonging rule set 
because people understand that, 

233
00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,960
though I know at least in dream 
of skew dream of par, everyone 

234
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,120
else has a section talking about
like what the term belonging 

235
00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,640
outside belonging meant to her. 
And it's mentioning like this 

236
00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,920
idea of like finding community 
outside of community. 

237
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,680
And I think psycho Dungeon does 
have a lot of focus on, you 

238
00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:46,480
know, where you belong, but I 
don't necessarily think you're 

239
00:13:46,560 --> 00:13:49,960
inherently in a community with 
the people you work with because

240
00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:51,640
often they're just your Co 
workers. 

241
00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,720
There's actually a big section 
on surface life stuff where like

242
00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,080
you might decide you've got like
a really tight knit close as 

243
00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,440
family vibe. 
You might have really siloed 

244
00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:04,240
lives where you meet each other 
in this dungeon and then you go 

245
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:06,320
home and you don't know anything
about each other. 

246
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,800
So I think it can be about 
belonging, but I think it's 

247
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,720
almost about the way that like 
feelings of community, Psycho 

248
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,520
Dungeon specifically, I mean, 
can be a bit sort of dissolved 

249
00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:24,400
and like a busy austerity hit 
city. 

250
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,800
And yeah, so the evolution of 
Psycho Dungeon evolution sounds 

251
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,200
overly prescriptive. 
But like the the changes I've 

252
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,280
done, Psycho Dungeon is there's 
like a mix of roles. 

253
00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,800
The setting elements are kind of
comboed with the dungeon, which 

254
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,320
has responsibility for like, you
know, controlling and creating 

255
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:44,080
monsters and traps and things. 
But also then there's the third 

256
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,160
role, which is the client and 
you can be passing around the 

257
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,080
dungeon role. 
Then there's all of the 

258
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:49,880
playbooks, which are the psycho 
plumbers. 

259
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,600
They have access to normals, but
then the client is someone who I

260
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:55,720
sort of described them as a 
special guest star because it's 

261
00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:57,600
only ever one unique person per 
job. 

262
00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,560
You're not following them from 
session to session, but they 

263
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,720
really matter in that moment, 
like the patient of a week in a 

264
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,920
medical drama or something. 
And they have like lesson of 

265
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,720
access to moves and stuff. 
But in this game, their 

266
00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,680
understanding of their own 
issues, which is what allows the

267
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,600
game to progress. 
So it's splitting up a lot of 

268
00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:22,000
like sort of GM responsibility. 
I know it's just like with no, I

269
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:23,920
know some people talk about like
a difference between is a game 

270
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,640
GM less or GM full. 
And I think Psycho Dungeon is 

271
00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,680
like, yeah, it's giving you a 
lot of procedures to make you 

272
00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,080
confident, but it's GM full. 
And it's like really passing 

273
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:37,600
around that responsibility and 
control essentially. 

274
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,880
Yeah, I I like how you I like 
the lean that you have in the 

275
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,120
like no dice, no masters versus 
of belonging inside belonging. 

276
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:49,960
And tell me if I'm completely 
all paced with this. 

277
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,840
But everything my sense of 
belonging inside belonging is, 

278
00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:54,920
is what you said, how like 
belonging inside belonging. 

279
00:15:54,920 --> 00:16:00,320
And a lot of the games are 
having this like small community

280
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:05,280
of, of people outside a bigger 
kind of more oppressive 

281
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,320
community and like being a part 
of that. 

282
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,840
And I when you talk about the 
psycho, you know, plumbers 

283
00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,280
potentially just being Co 
workers, like it's interesting 

284
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,440
that that's not really kind of 
the the the basis for that. 

285
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,880
But using the no dice, no 
masters with the token system 

286
00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,680
like that feels like it fits 
really well in with like the 

287
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,840
dungeon and client and the token
system and everything like that.

288
00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,600
So it's it's because I know that
like belonging as a blogging is 

289
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:36,240
quote UN quote, PTA and PBTA. 
Like I just love looking at like

290
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,640
in my mind, like the trees of 
like where this game eventually,

291
00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,520
like, you know, on the family 
tree of games comes from. 

292
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,440
Yeah, I always love seeing a 
game which is maybe doing a 

293
00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,520
genre, which I've seen, I see 
done in both like Forged in the 

294
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,600
Dark and Belonging Outside 
Belonging, because they're both 

295
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,960
coming from Pbta as well. 
I almost feel like, oh, this is 

296
00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,040
like divergent evolutions of 
species. 

297
00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,960
Like this is different EV 
evolutions where you get the PB,

298
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,200
the like you could probably find
a PBTA of a genre and then that 

299
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,079
Bob and then the Forged in the 
Dark. 

300
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,319
I do find that stuff fascinating
a lot. 

301
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:11,560
Yeah, it's neat. 
And this one feels like a break 

302
00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,520
off from that too, where it's 
very no dice, no masters, which 

303
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,920
is I think kind of started with 
belong inside belonging, but is 

304
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:20,720
kind of really not belong inside
belonging. 

305
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:22,119
It's kind of stretched in a 
different direction. 

306
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,520
So that's really, it's really 
neat, kind of divergent you have

307
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:27,720
here with this game. 
That's cool. 

308
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,160
One question I had when you were
describing it. 

309
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,560
So are the dungeons that come 
from people's minds, Are they 

310
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,880
physically in like the real 
world, or are psycho plumbers 

311
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:39,920
actually going into the psyches 
of people? 

312
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,840
I so I don't think like the 
entrances in the real world. 

313
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,720
It might be sort of, you know, 
oh, I've got this, this 

314
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:51,960
entrance, this dungeon entrance 
in my closet that could be full 

315
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,400
of implications or it's, it's in
my bathroom or like, Oh yeah, 

316
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:57,280
sorry. 
They're like this, this back 

317
00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,920
alley behind my flat is full of 
this dungeon entrance. 

318
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:05,360
And then like that's sort of a 
shifting dreamscape a little bit

319
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:07,840
or maybe more nightmare scape is
more accurately there are 

320
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,600
physical location that the 
client is going into them with. 

321
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,680
And yeah, the fact is that 
they're this thing that exists. 

322
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,360
And if the if they're not closed
off, the way they work is 

323
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:24,120
they're like draining energy and
motivation and feeling from the 

324
00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:27,080
client and they will just sort 
of eventually leave them as a 

325
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:32,080
husk unless they are hit sort of
at the root and essentially like

326
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:33,680
ripped out. 
But I think of them as an almost

327
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,840
weird half dimensional space. 
That's neat. 

328
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:40,840
It reminds me a little bit. 
Have you ever looked at the 

329
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,640
Manwa solo levelling? 
I know that the anime before it 

330
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,280
just came out. 
It's it's it's similar in a 

331
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,560
little bit different way, but 
like, yeah, this world, for some

332
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,240
reason, randomly in this world, 
these dungeon entrances start 

333
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,200
appearing. 
So all you see is the gate to go

334
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,440
in. 
But it's very like Manwa, like 

335
00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,720
you, you level up in a dungeon, 
kill monsters, get like get, you

336
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,920
know, power and there's 
capitalism because that fuels 

337
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,080
machines and whatever. 
But it reminds me a bit of that 

338
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,120
where the way you're describing 
is like there's a gateway, but 

339
00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:12,920
the dungeon itself is like, you 
can go around the gateway, but 

340
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,640
the dungeon goes in there. 
But it's neat. 

341
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:18,240
It's it's, you should check it 
out. 

342
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,320
I think you'd really dig it. 
Yeah, that's really interesting.

343
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:26,920
But how in, in the world, how 
are psycho plumbers seen? 

344
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:32,400
Like, are they seen as like 
like, you know, like a therapist

345
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,280
would like, you know, some 
people see that as, you know, 

346
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:35,640
they're like a medical 
professional. 

347
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,560
So there's like a little bit of 
like a status to it. 

348
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:39,160
Or are they more like more 
workmen? 

349
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,200
Are they like more like 
plumbers? 

350
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:43,880
Like, how are they kind of seen 
in society? 

351
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:45,920
Are they like, appreciated or 
are they seen as just like 

352
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,560
another like, you know, 
workman's job? 

353
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:53,680
So the thing I end up saying 
about like psychoplum is like in

354
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,400
text at least is, you know, it's
a, it's a low paid job. 

355
00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,960
It's definitely in a sort of 
working class area. 

356
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:04,400
They're probably the job is 
dangerous and it has that sort 

357
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,880
of level of respect of danger. 
And it probably does involve 

358
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:13,160
like, you know. 
Being knowledgeable at least, 

359
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,720
but I sort of think of like the 
level of intervention and 

360
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,120
training you have is probably 
similar, more closer to a first 

361
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:20,360
aid course than a medical 
degree. 

362
00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:23,600
For instance, if you're using 
like a healthful therapy 

363
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,000
analogy. 
But in terms of like how they're

364
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,720
seen in society, like are people
like seeing them as as 

365
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:37,600
adventurers or heroes or sort of
thing sensitively, I think the 

366
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,720
book leaves that open. 
I because definitely for me, I 

367
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,160
imagine a lot of the particulars
of how the job functions. 

368
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:48,640
It's one where I imagine people 
are taking influence either from

369
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,120
like basically from jobs they're
familiar with either on a 

370
00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:56,800
personal level or probably free 
TVI know so much of the writing 

371
00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:01,440
in Psycho Dungeon was a lot of 
influenced by my time as a 

372
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,560
teacher, which I did for about 
on and off in weird different 

373
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,840
ways, like around four years of 
teaching and then I quit because

374
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:09,640
it just didn't could never work 
for me. 

375
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:14,120
So I know if I was playing a 
game of people, it's it's going 

376
00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:15,720
to end up having that structural
lot. 

377
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,480
I'm also sure some people are 
big into medical dramas will 

378
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,440
probably take a lot from like 
hospital settings or stuff or 

379
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:28,800
people who experience with work 
is more yeah. 

380
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:30,720
If someone had more direct 
experience with say, counselling

381
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:35,240
and stuff, that might inform it.
It's I think of there's less 

382
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,480
hard facts to the setting of 
Glendane and Psycho Dungeon than

383
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,440
you might imagine. 
It's a lot of like, well, what 

384
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,600
is your version of this world at
the table? 

385
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,080
The I hope the game and the book
does do a bit to sort of 

386
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,680
facilitating that process of 
discovery. 

387
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,200
And I also, I just want to also 
say in case it came out weird, I

388
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,440
vocations are fantastic. 
Plumbers and electricians, 

389
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,800
everyone, we need you. 
I meant more blue collar versus 

390
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,120
white collar, not like lesser 
status by any stretch of the 

391
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:07,880
imagination. 
Because what a lot of those 

392
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:09,440
people do is a lot more 
important than what a lot of 

393
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,240
people with white collars that 
just steal our money do so. 

394
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:18,640
Oh yeah, absolutely. 
So since it is a descendant of 

395
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,280
the PBTA is it does have 
playbooks and as of right now 

396
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,880
there are seven in them. 
Tell us a little bit about kind 

397
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,200
of the playbooks and the 
structure and how you can kind 

398
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,600
of play these characters. 
Yeah, so the playbooks there are

399
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:37,800
seven, there is the wizard, the 
witch, the Cyborg, the werewolf,

400
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,440
the shapeshifter, the sword 
fighter and the Rockstar. 

401
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,160
And sort of my implication of 
the playbooks, you do get this 

402
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,120
thing of like, OK, there's no 
one has a specific psycho 

403
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,720
plumber job degree. 
They all focus mostly on sort 

404
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,400
of, I think like different 
narrative frosts. 

405
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:03,120
Like the wizard is very focused 
on the wizard. 

406
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,760
Part of the motivation for the 
wizard was I wanted to reframe 

407
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:10,200
like what would being qualified 
as a wizard be if that wasn't in

408
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,240
an academia world, if that was 
like a sort of vocational trade 

409
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,880
school. 
So but the wizard is then like, 

410
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,360
oh, I committed a lot to 
training to be a wizard. 

411
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,920
I don't know if I fully 
understood everything I was 

412
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,680
signing up for. 
I don't know if I'm cut out for 

413
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,360
this. 
That was definitely very 

414
00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:30,280
inspired by teaching the witch 
that like the witch's focus is 

415
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:36,080
very on sort of the parallel 
experience of like monetizing a 

416
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,760
hobby and how that can really 
sort of sour that relationship 

417
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,520
with a hobby. 
The werewolf is really sort of 

418
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,520
focused on like your 
relationship with your body 

419
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,160
because of wet, like Lichen 
Frosty will have been picked up 

420
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:53,680
in a psycho dungeon, and that is
in a lot of ways kind of an 

421
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,320
allegory for chronic pain. 
The Cyborg is so about balance. 

422
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,600
That's kind of an allegory for 
chronic fatigue. 

423
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,400
The Shapeshifter is really sort 
of a story about a completely 

424
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:09,840
destroyed work life balance and 
how you've been sort of like 

425
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,160
crammed into different things 
and maybe lost everything other 

426
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,760
than this job. 
The sword fighter then is a big 

427
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,120
focus on like, well, what is 
someone starting out like? 

428
00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:21,600
The sword fighter is me when I 
decided I wanted to be a 

429
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,040
teacher, whereas maybe the 
shapeshifter was me by the end 

430
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,840
of my first year of teaching. 
And then the rockstar's a big 

431
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:31,320
focus on like, ah, and some of 
them might came about them from 

432
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,080
different angles, like wizard 
and witch. 

433
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,080
It was me going like, yeah, I 
want a version where the wizard 

434
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,400
is a blue collar job. 
And then the witch was kind of 

435
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:44,000
almost complicating that because
I was like, well, you know, if 

436
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,560
wizard, if magic exists in the 
setting, but anyone can learn 

437
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,760
magic. 
It's mainly sort of cultural. 

438
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,320
I, I kind of ended up looking at
which is something that was 

439
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,120
perceived as a sort of pink 
collar job where it's seen as 

440
00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:57,240
more sort of soft scale. 
And obviously it's the thing 

441
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,320
where like, by implication, you 
can just look at this and go 

442
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,560
like, well, they can both do 
exactly the same things, but 

443
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,960
there's some space for that 
exploration. 

444
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,200
The werewolf was very like, I 
wrote something and then I 

445
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,000
looked back at it and I was 
like, oh, this is really about 

446
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,560
my experience with fibromyalgia,
where something like the 

447
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,400
shapeshifter that started from 
the point of, I want to playbook

448
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,800
about what happens when you are 
really burnt out and you've lost

449
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,680
this balance. 
And I thought about how I was 

450
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,320
going to present that a few 
different directions, and then I

451
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,560
landed on the idea of it's a 
shapeshifter. 

452
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,080
So the approach is all 
different. 

453
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,520
The playbooks are sort of 
distinguished by the different 

454
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,320
moves they have. 
They all have access to strong 

455
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,440
and vulnerable moves as well as 
lateral moves by which they can 

456
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:44,040
give up players tokens. 
They have lots to pick lists 

457
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,480
that sort of shade in their 
unique back story. 

458
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,520
You know, it's in that sort of 
PBDABOB style. 

459
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,680
These sort of questions and 
stuff do guide them in certain 

460
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,360
shapes. 
There's a lot of different ways 

461
00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:58,160
you could go with any of them. 
And then they all have their own

462
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,560
sort of triggers for how 
advancement is going. 

463
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,000
Because in the game, psycho 
dungeon advancement can be, oh, 

464
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,720
you're sort of getting somewhere
good, or it can be you're 

465
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,560
completely getting stressed out.
And eventually you're going to 

466
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,280
be in the position of having a 
psycho dungeon pop out that you 

467
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,920
need someone to come in and help
clear it out for you. 

468
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,400
Yeah, that was something that I 
thought too is like what happens

469
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,360
when like a psycho plumber 
creates a psycho dungeon? 

470
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:25,240
Is it like a super dungeon 
because they've been in other 

471
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,600
people's or is it just more more
of the same? 

472
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,280
And so it's like some whole 
advice on it in the section like

473
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,200
you, the the suggestion is like,
you can just follow the regular 

474
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,200
procedure you've used for 
building a psycho dungeon 

475
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,840
before, but this character has 
access to all of their stuff, 

476
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,160
but they'll still pick things 
out. 

477
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,560
There is a note on it though, 
And this is kind of inspired by 

478
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:48,720
by teaching stuff where I do 
talk about a lot of the 

479
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,880
procedures and I do say like 
they're, they're scaffolds to 

480
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,960
help you learn and feel very 
confident with the system. 

481
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,360
And you might start to diverge 
from them when you get further 

482
00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:01,480
along. 
You might create a psycho 

483
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,200
dungeon where you're like, 
actually, I reckon, yeah, this 

484
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,320
has got way more flaws. 
It's way more complicated 

485
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:07,920
because this is a psycho 
plumber's one. 

486
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:13,760
Or you might go, it wasn't as 
complicated as it seems. 

487
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,000
This is smaller. 
You might make some of the 

488
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,560
things up because the point is 
like the procedure has taught 

489
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:24,400
you to be confident in making 
the decision that serves your 

490
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,840
story best. 
But there's, yeah, a lot of 

491
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,520
guidance on how it works. 
And then there's a lot of 

492
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,760
suggestions. 
Cause completing your own psycho

493
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:35,080
plumber psycho dungeon, I should
say, is a real opportunity for 

494
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:36,720
your character to reach a 
turning point. 

495
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,520
Like that's opportunities for 
like you might just quit here. 

496
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,400
Like this is clearly not worth 
it. 

497
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,160
You might, you can develop into 
some of the other playbooks, 

498
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,280
like if you, if lycanthropy is 
developed in a psycho dungeon, 

499
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,760
you just had your own. 
Maybe you take this option where

500
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,000
you're like, oh, I'd probably 
get Lycan frappy off this. 

501
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,680
I'm going to become take the 
werewolf playbook or oh, I 

502
00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,680
probably got some injuries. 
I'm going to take a Cyborg 

503
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,480
playbook. 
Or you might suggest a version 

504
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,360
where he's like, you know, my 
character will go straight back 

505
00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:07,960
to work. 
And it's like, oh, Are you sure 

506
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,560
about that? 
You don't have to and maybe 

507
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,960
shouldn't. 
Yeah, it it presents options to 

508
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,640
change a longer sort of term 
story of these characters, which

509
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:25,720
is really just sort of like I 
was about to say slice of life, 

510
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,320
but that's not quite accurate. 
But because it's got that sort 

511
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:33,560
of like it's situational in the 
way like sitcoms or work drama 

512
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:34,200
DS are. 
Gotcha. 

513
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,440
You know, one thing I like about
the way that you write a lot of 

514
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:45,240
things is there's like, how do I
say this? 

515
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:55,520
It's not necessarily incredibly 
subtle, but it's always elegant,

516
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,120
if that makes sense, You know 
what I mean? 

517
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,360
Like you could read terminal as 
just terminal, but like if you 

518
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,800
just literally just like take 
one layer down, there's like so 

519
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,520
much going on with it. 
And you know, when you're 

520
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,240
describing the playbooks, that's
kind of how it feels where it's 

521
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,560
just like you could just play 
the wizard or you could 

522
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:17,960
understand like the where the 
wizard came from and the places 

523
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,320
that you pull from, a lot of the
things that you do, like even 

524
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,200
the original magic for besties 
and stuff like that. 

525
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,880
Like there's never, there's 
always somewhere that it comes 

526
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:35,600
from and a meaning to what it is
and, and a depth to it. 

527
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,440
You know, nothing ever feels 
like, like it's added in just 

528
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:40,680
like the game or something like 
that. 

529
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,880
It always feels like it's added 
in with purpose and with 

530
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:47,240
experience. 
Is that something you strive for

531
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,920
or is that just kind of like the
way that you write if you if you

532
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,840
get what I'm saying and all? 
Yeah, No, totally. 

533
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,680
I first of all thank you. 
I really appreciate that. 

534
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,080
And that feels really nice to be
seen essentially. 

535
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,280
I do always like to think like 
often I guess about the like, 

536
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,360
what's the first layer? 
What's the layer where it 

537
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,080
doesn't matter if someone gets 
this deeper thing? 

538
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,440
Are they still getting that cool
game in terms of what I'm 

539
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,400
drawing on? 
Sometimes, because I've said for

540
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,600
years now, I say like I make 
games and there are a lot of 

541
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,280
time about connection and 
alienation. 

542
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,400
When I first thought of that, it
was mainly a sort of retroactive

543
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,080
thing. 
I looked like the five games I'd

544
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,680
made at that time and was like, 
yeah, this is a through line. 

545
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,240
This is A and analysis. 
I comply to my own work. 

546
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:37,160
But as I do go on more, I do 
sort of think more consciously 

547
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:38,880
and often it's I'm writing 
saying because I think it's 

548
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,360
cool. 
The pitch for Psycho Dungeon 

549
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:47,520
came semi fully formed on my 
flight back from Gencom last 

550
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:52,520
year where I just fought. 
I think the Tom Psycho Dungeon 

551
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,560
came where I'm like dungeon that
comes from all of someone's 

552
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,080
stresses or traumas. 
Plumbers called in to clear it 

553
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,720
out. 
That obviously then expanded 

554
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,600
though, because Len, I, as I 
started writing up, OK, here's 

555
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,880
this cool idea and then I 
started thinking of what's this 

556
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,360
about that brings in the client 
and stuff. 

557
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,720
And then I, I'm consciously 
going, I'm really informed by, 

558
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:20,120
by my experience teaching and 
that personal aspect. 

559
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,200
So I know what I do when I'm 
bringing it in, Like I am often 

560
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,680
doing that consciously, but 
sometimes I write saying by 

561
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,400
accident, I wrote the werewolf, 
look back to it, realized, oh, 

562
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,440
I've written a chronic pain 
playbook. 

563
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,640
And then on I did the second 
draft of that where I leaned 

564
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,160
into it and I went with it. 
But also like, yeah, there's 

565
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,760
still that first level where the
werewolf is. 

566
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,600
You're not necessarily engaging 
with it as an allegory. 

567
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,080
I think there's a lot of sort of
like this will sound 

568
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,760
pretentious, but like sort of, 
yeah, like allegorical resonance

569
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,960
and a lot of things that work 
on. 

570
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:58,040
There's the element of lap for 
terminal and coercive control. 

571
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,760
There's definitely this for like
loads of different things as 

572
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,960
well as like mental illness in 
general for this. 

573
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:11,080
But I don't ever want that to be
like the direct thing. 

574
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,440
I sort of want this possibility 
where like, yeah, there'll be 

575
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,320
people who like really look at 
it closely and really see it and

576
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,920
feel seen by it maybe. 
And then there's also a level 

577
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,640
where people don't do that. 
And I think I guess why I do 

578
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,200
like that first layer is also 
because I'm like, that I guess 

579
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,360
gives me the separation to go 
that like people may have read 

580
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,160
my work, read it really well, 
seen all the things I meant in 

581
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,040
it. 
But also I'm aware like that 

582
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,000
doesn't mean they know me. 
There's still like the book 

583
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:46,600
always transforms things and I'm
an awful, so I'm dead. 

584
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:52,000
And so I'm at least aware of 
like how in a dead awful way, 

585
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,280
you know, I'm aware of how my 
intentions and experience 

586
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,160
informed my work and I'm more so
aware of wanting my work to 

587
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,600
stand on its own, even if people
don't know about any of that 

588
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,160
other stuff. 
So it was very over explained. 

589
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:07,560
No, that I mean, that's that's 
perfect. 

590
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,000
You know that, you know, then 
that's kind of what I was. 

591
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,360
You know, the great answer for 
the question is just Yeah, like 

592
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:20,080
the ability for it to stand on 
its own without knowing you 

593
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,080
because without knowing you at 
all, I I read some of your 

594
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:25,800
stuff. 
And then once I know what's and,

595
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,080
you know, I mean, you, you get 
it. 

596
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,920
You know what I mean? 
But, you know, but then I know 

597
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,600
you more so now we spend at this
point hours together and it's 

598
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,280
it, like you said, it does still
really stand on its own. 

599
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:39,840
I think you do that incredibly 
successfully. 

600
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,200
Do you think that you had kind 
of like a self actualization in 

601
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,960
your writing in the sense that 
you said in the first bunch of 

602
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,280
things you put out, you didn't 
really think about it, but when 

603
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,400
you look back, you go, oh, OK, 
that that's what I do. 

604
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,800
And then like from that point 
forward, like thought about it 

605
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,880
more consciously or or like I 
guess if that's. 

606
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:05,000
Yeah, yeah. 
I think often where my ideas 

607
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:10,080
start is often sort of from a 
from I guess like a sort of 

608
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,840
simple idea. 
So for Psycho Dungeon, the idea 

609
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,719
was the concept. 
For Terminal, the initial I 

610
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,760
think idea was I wanted to apply
like the matrix to the system 

611
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,840
from Inevitable and other things
came after that. 

612
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:30,120
For something like say 30 Foes 
is a game I made 1. 

613
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,000
So it's like I want to make A7 
samurai game that's really about

614
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,679
negotiating as as a table. 
And then I guess I'm often 

615
00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:42,800
figuring out the angle in and 
some of that does usually go 

616
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,360
back to like, oh, how are these 
themes that I'm interested in? 

617
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,800
How am I still exploring them in
this space? 

618
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:55,199
But other times I think I I 
think I interrogate myself as a 

619
00:34:55,199 --> 00:35:00,280
as a creator a lot, but I do 
often and I feel like I've never

620
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,520
written something where I've 
like completely gone like I'm 

621
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,080
really surprised. 
That's very atypical. 

622
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,040
I like to think I'm building on 
myself. 

623
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:10,320
I like to think psycho dungeon 
builds on the 1st belonging 

624
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,960
outside belonging game I did 
that was called to embrace a 

625
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,720
swamp creature. 
I like to think like the next 

626
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:22,040
game I do with like a a real 
like hardly written setting will

627
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,960
be really informed by the work I
did on terminal and I'll be 

628
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,120
conscious about knowing it. 
I'm working on a sequel to 

629
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,560
Transgender Death Match Legend 
2, and I can see how that's 

630
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,440
really informed by what I 
learned from doing that first 

631
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,120
one. 
So even I think when I start 

632
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,280
from this position of just, oh, 
what's the fun idea I want to 

633
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,000
explore? 
I think often where I end up is 

634
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:43,680
often thinking about what have I
learned? 

635
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,560
And that's, I guess both by 
other things I've made and also 

636
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,680
what have I learned in life. 
And I have, yeah, I think I do 

637
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,840
have the impulse to always end 
up putting it into my work, 

638
00:35:54,240 --> 00:36:00,080
which yeah, I sometimes I 
sometimes I can feel sort of 

639
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,880
weird about the idea of like, 
oh, am I putting too much of 

640
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,960
myself in? 
But I think, I think it's the 

641
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:08,680
side I manage on and I feel good
about. 

642
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,440
I think it's a former stand up 
comedians impulse. 

643
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,120
Yeah, I I like it. 
I'm a fan, you know, like I, I 

644
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,000
do think that there's a through 
line for for all of your games. 

645
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,680
I've read where I can read want 
to be like this does feel like 

646
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,880
Kayla, you know what I mean? 
Like this feels like I can see 

647
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,400
some stuff from this game too, 
or I can see this. 

648
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,680
And especially when you go from 
like some of your earlier work 

649
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,960
to to terminal and then on to 
this one. 

650
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:40,400
Like there is this through line 
of at least the perception of 

651
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,920
you that you can get as much as 
you can from someone's writing. 

652
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:47,600
But also, like you said, this 
growth in this use of allegories

653
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,280
and and then the expansion on 
the way that the the various 

654
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,160
systems work and stuff. 
So truly indeed, I'm excited to 

655
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,080
see like sequels to things, 
that's what. 

656
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,000
It'd be really interesting to 
see the first one and then see 

657
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,000
the second one. 
That'll be cool. 

658
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,120
Yeah, that's, I'd like, I 'cause
I have done some like second 

659
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,480
edition stuff before, but often 
it's like really early games I 

660
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,320
did which I then just like 
rewrote like a couple months 

661
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,160
later. 
But yeah, I'm interested in the 

662
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,320
idea of really, like, properly 
revisiting stuff. 

663
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,240
That's gonna be neat. 
So so the art and Psycho 

664
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:18,680
dungeon, it's different. 
It's out there. 

665
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,800
It's it looks like it's very 
photo collage kind of mixed with

666
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:27,800
a lot of like multi or am I 
trying to use like other stuff? 

667
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,640
So like talk to me about the 
art. 

668
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,360
It it's, it's unique and 
especially compared to if you 

669
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:37,520
look at something like Terminal.
Yeah, so Terminal does. 

670
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,560
No, sorry, Psycho Dungeon does 
have like a more traditionally 

671
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:46,120
drawn cover by just Kasinski, 
which is a really awesome cover.

672
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,520
That was a great experience. 
But I ended up looking, and this

673
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:54,360
was admittedly mainly for budget
reasons, as I was trying to keep

674
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:59,040
this as a low budget project and
see I guess almost sort of like,

675
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,840
oh, what's like how well can I 
do when I'm being quite sort of 

676
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,240
self reliant? 
Mainly because just at the 

677
00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:11,720
moment I'm trying to turn being 
a self-employed game creator 

678
00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:13,800
into a job. 
So I need to sort of see how I 

679
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,120
can be spending that. 
So yeah, it's a lot of the art. 

680
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:22,760
Internal art is all by me. 
It's a lot of digital collage 

681
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:27,800
which is then sort of very 
manipulated in ways. 

682
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,240
That's where playbook images 
come from. 

683
00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:37,520
They're all like I've sort of 
collaged and meshed and it's 

684
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,400
going to say Photoshop is a 
generic term, but I think that's

685
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:45,920
a bit, I use Affinity, but that 
to get different things. 

686
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,320
And so of the playbooks, it's 
trying to get like a sort of 

687
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:53,160
nice iconic image for things 
like the wizard, which is I 

688
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:54,920
believe like that's an image of 
an electrician. 

689
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,240
And then I've just added the 
wizard staff and hat and then 

690
00:38:57,240 --> 00:39:02,040
added lots of exposure and 
colours to the art with the 

691
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:06,400
werewolf as well. 
Yeah, that's a like woman in a 

692
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,840
shopping market where I've used 
like a dog features from another

693
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,040
public domain thing. 
I've also started taking a lot 

694
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:18,240
of photos. 
The ones then for the individual

695
00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:20,800
dungeon representations is where
they get a bit more weird. 

696
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:27,600
That's where it's often like 
very like very open to 

697
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:33,280
interpretation, sort of like 
self consciously capital W weird

698
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:35,440
images. 
So like a thing representing 

699
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,000
social life. 
I've got like a a snake running 

700
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:43,080
out of a payphone for 
adolescence. 

701
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,800
I've got someone whose face 
facial features have all been 

702
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,320
sort of like melted and they're 
surrounded by people whose 

703
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,600
mouths are sort of like 
ravenous. 

704
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,680
And yeah, because of the way 
it's overexposed, sort of 

705
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,560
posterized, like adding halftone
stuff. 

706
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,600
I remember someone compared the 
style, the literal visual look 

707
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:03,760
of it, of it kind of looks like 
old Game Boy advanced 

708
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:08,560
screenshots, which is something 
I've, yeah, tried to lean into a

709
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,280
bit with the physical layout of 
this, this book. 

710
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,760
I'm sort of drawing a bit of 
inspirations from like a literal

711
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:22,040
instruction manual from video 
game manuals as well as then 

712
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:26,240
yeah, lots of sort of more 
designee elements and it's. 

713
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:32,920
I don't usually, I don't openly 
describe myself as an artist 

714
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:34,760
ever. 
I've done like this digital 

715
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,680
college stuff before. 
It's similar to, but often 

716
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,480
usually in combination with 
other things. 

717
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,920
So this is like AI guess a big 
shift for me in terms of yeah, 

718
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:48,440
trying to see does this visual 
style, which I think is often 

719
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,000
really fun and really 
interesting. 

720
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,520
Is it saying that interest 
people enough that like, they 

721
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:58,160
are really sort of charmed by a 
book featuring that style? 

722
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,800
And I'm, I'm hopeful and the 
reaction I've got has been very 

723
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,920
positive. 
But it's it's, it's definitely 

724
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,000
an experiment. 
And admittedly, I'm listening 

725
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,360
like the second Kickstarter, 
third campaign I've done 

726
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,520
everything I'm doing at every 
point is still sort of an 

727
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,720
experiment of just seeing what 
works. 

728
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,880
But yeah, that's a bit of the 
how the process of the art comes

729
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,240
together. 
Yeah, it's neat too, because 

730
00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:21,520
like, you know, for anyone that 
can go to the key starter page 

731
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,520
right now, which you should and 
go back this even with the 

732
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,880
layout like in the top, there's 
like those the the little 

733
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:29,960
buttons. 
And when you say like DVD give 

734
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,640
advance now all I see is like 
controller buttons. 

735
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,880
So there's like a yellow circle,
a green circle and A and a red 

736
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,000
circle. 
And now, now that's all I'm ever

737
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,040
going to see is like the the XY,
you know, pyramid what whatever 

738
00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:46,160
various controllers see on it 
Now that's all I'm gonna be able

739
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:47,680
to see. 
I mean, the layout looks great. 

740
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:49,880
It like, I mean, you did a 
you've done a really good job 

741
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,200
with the art. 
I think I I can't wait to see 

742
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:57,320
more of the dungeon art 
specifically because of how like

743
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,080
on reality based it needs to be.
You know what I mean? 

744
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,240
Like it can get weird because 
people's like he's get weird. 

745
00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:06,400
So I'm really curious to see to 
see that. 

746
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,800
But yeah, and you have a couple 
other people on the project. 

747
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,040
I know the I just did that 
cover. 

748
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,240
But also listen, here you have 
Alyssa Ridley is are they 

749
00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:20,440
helping you with writing, 
editing? 

750
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,760
Like what's her associate with 
the project? 

751
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,200
Yeah, so Alyssa, she's the 
editor. 

752
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,720
She's from Biscuit Fund games 
stuff, things like Tournament 

753
00:42:29,720 --> 00:42:33,360
Ark and Goblin Country and 
Levante papers. 

754
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,040
So we first took up on Terminal.
She was the editor of Terminal. 

755
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:42,960
I felt like she did such an 
awesome job on Terminal in terms

756
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:48,760
of really helping like clean up 
things which were like sort of, 

757
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,600
you know, maybe less clear or 
less focused on what they were 

758
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,840
trying to do. 
So, you know, in the same way, I

759
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,320
think it's even in the fangs of 
Terminal where I'm like, this 

760
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,440
game isn't what it would be 
without Gorman Geiss Star and 

761
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,640
without the way Alyssa helps 
develop that. 

762
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:08,360
So yeah, so she'll be working on
editing the manuscript. 

763
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,400
I've sent out the initial draft 
at this point. 

764
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,720
This is obviously an interesting
thing here because I the the 

765
00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:18,960
stretch goals can end up 
expanding this game a bit. 

766
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,720
So I guess we'll see on how the 
campaign does there. 

767
00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:24,680
But yeah, as it is like she'll 
sort of start working. 

768
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,600
We've talked about those ideas a
lot and it's just someone I 

769
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,160
think is a really brilliant 
editor and I do feel like, 

770
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:37,400
really understood by, I think I 
feel very seen as a writer by 

771
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,720
her. 
And so I think that's, that's 

772
00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:43,240
part of why I enjoyed working 
with her so much on Terminal. 

773
00:43:43,240 --> 00:43:45,280
She was also the editor for 
Ritual Magic. 

774
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:49,160
And so yeah, as long as she's 
got availability, I wasn't too 

775
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,240
busy. 
I I always love having a look 

776
00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:53,160
over my stuff. 
That's awesome. 

777
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:54,960
Yeah. 
It's, you know, it's everybody 

778
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:56,880
out there writing stuff. 
Editors are great. 

779
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:58,720
They're really important. 
Not only will they make sure 

780
00:43:58,720 --> 00:44:02,440
that your stuff is readable, but
also understandable. 

781
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,360
So get an editor people. 
If you're gonna use a 

782
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,760
crowdfunding thing for anything 
fun and editor, they're great 

783
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,000
people. 
So the project's been out for, I

784
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,080
think it's about 5 days. 
There's 25 days left to go. 

785
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:21,400
I think you're about, so the 
goal in American is 2835, but 

786
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:27,720
the goal in pound 1652 you're at
about 2100 for American. 

787
00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:31,560
So more than like 4/5 of the way
to funding with 20 with only 

788
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,440
five days in. 
I think the last update I got 

789
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:38,360
was like 70% of the way or 72. 
It may even be to initial 

790
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,960
funding. 
I think like it's been a good 

791
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,080
launch. 
I find these things definitely 

792
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:45,880
when I'm in the middle of them, 
so hard to judge. 

793
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:47,920
But yeah, I think it's been a 
good launch. 

794
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,960
There's a lot of fun here. 
Some of the cool ones are gone 

795
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,800
or close to gone. 
I sold an annotated copy where 

796
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,920
I'm going to go through, add 
lots of little notes. 

797
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,120
I think there's still some 
chances for people to get their 

798
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,160
name in the book in sort of in 
universe locations or or other 

799
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,920
sort of structure of a present 
ways of presentation. 

800
00:45:08,240 --> 00:45:09,760
But as it stands out, yeah, you 
can get the game. 

801
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:14,040
You can get it either digitally,
physically, signature versions. 

802
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:18,200
You can help contribute to the 
community copy pool initially, 

803
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,360
which was said at the start. 
Yeah, there's a lot of different

804
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,920
tiers, which are mainly just me 
sort of giving people ways where

805
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,080
if they feel like they really 
want to support the project and 

806
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,320
earn more money, they've got 
that that option there. 

807
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,920
Yeah, yeah. 
So, so tears wise, it's always 

808
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,360
interesting when we talk about 
other countries and stuff, but 

809
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,520
there's always, you know, the 
supported tier, the one, the 

810
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:42,240
$1.00, well, $2.00, one pound, 
one digital is only 10. 

811
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:44,240
Is it pounds? 
Is it pounds? 

812
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,480
Yeah, that's down as 10 lbs 
actually. 

813
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:52,640
Yeah, it's this is the weird 
thing because I set my, I set my

814
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:56,800
pledge levels on Kickstarter in 
Great British pounds. 

815
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,760
I set my prices on each in 
dollars, but I actually usually 

816
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:03,440
keep the numbers the same. 
So should probably actually 

817
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,240
think. 
About that, if, if, if 

818
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,840
capitalism could just make EUR 
pounds and dollars like the same

819
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:11,120
across the board, that would be 
great. 

820
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,320
But how would people make money 
by stealing people's currency? 

821
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,880
So digital copy is only £10 or 
$13. 

822
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,440
The physical copy is only £20 or
$26. 

823
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,720
The signed copy 25 lbs thirty 
$2.00. 

824
00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:27,040
And then signed copy plus the 
name in the book is £35 or $45. 

825
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:29,960
And Oh no, there's still the 
signed copy plus the community 

826
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,880
copy donation. 
Community copy is always great 

827
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:36,960
to, to put out there for people 
that aren't able to, to have the

828
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:41,840
funds to be able to still 
participate in tabletop gaming. 

829
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:43,400
I mean, that's one of the 
reasons we talk about value on 

830
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:48,840
the show is if things are, you 
know, too much, you're, you're 

831
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:50,640
really wiping out a lot of your 
audience. 

832
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:52,600
So having things like community 
copies are such a great thing to

833
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,720
have. 
And then, yeah, the annotated 

834
00:46:54,720 --> 00:46:58,200
copy is gone. 
So very affordable, especially 

835
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,600
for the quality of writing that 
that you do all the time. 

836
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:02,200
It's fantastic. 
Anyone that didn't get 

837
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:07,120
terminable for, I highly, highly
recommend going to ratwave.uk, 

838
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:08,680
grabbing a copy of everything 
the kids. 

839
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:09,920
That's what I did as soon as 
just oral. 

840
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:11,280
But I was like, click, click, 
click, click, click. 

841
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,360
All right, I have everything 
now, so we're good. 

842
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,360
I remember that, yeah. 
That was the first big order. 

843
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,160
I was like tab all right, still 
some distance. 

844
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:20,320
Now I have. 
Now I have everything. 

845
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,640
Yeah, you know, I, like I said, 
I really enjoy your work, being 

846
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:27,080
able to get it physical. 
I mean, clearly I have a 

847
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,680
problem. 
So if if I enjoy people's stuff,

848
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:31,200
I want to have everything 
they've ever touched. 

849
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:35,800
So we went ahead and do that. 
But I of of all the things, I 

850
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,080
think a really great entrance 
into the into your work is 

851
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:40,400
terminal. 
I think it's an absolutely 

852
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,240
fantastic game. 
And I know it is a little bit 

853
00:47:42,240 --> 00:47:45,800
bigger than, you know, a Zine, 
but I, I, I can't recommend this

854
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:47,440
game enough and I'm really 
excited to go over it with 

855
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,320
Hunter here on the show. 
But I definitely want to grab 

856
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,040
that. 
And with 25 days left to go, I 

857
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,320
think you're so the pledge is at
20. 

858
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:01,360
So are your stretch goals right 
now in in great British pounds 

859
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:02,480
too? 
Have we looked at stretch goals 

860
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,240
or am I looked at great? 
British pounds. 

861
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:05,560
Gotcha. 
Yeah. 

862
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:11,120
So I'll yeah, I if if it's 
easier for currency wise, I can 

863
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:12,480
run them down off the top of my 
head. 

864
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,480
Oh no, I just so for the stretch
goals just in general. 

865
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,200
So you have Dungeon Textures is 
your first stretch goal. 

866
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:20,680
Dungeon Scenarios is your 
second. 

867
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:25,760
The fiction excerpts is your 
third unextended example play is

868
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,400
the, what did I say, 4th and 
then the 8th playbook. 

869
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,480
I'm really excited to see what 
the 8th playbook could 

870
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:40,440
potentially be, but the stretch 
will sound really, really 

871
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,360
interesting. 
I'm excited. 

872
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:44,520
But one thing I think we missed 
is textures. 

873
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:46,960
What are textures? 
As far as the game goes? 

874
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,960
Yeah. 
That's actually an element I 

875
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,480
forgot to sort of explain. 
I guess if you're familiar with 

876
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:56,240
Wonder Home, think of them as, I
guess, the evil twin of natures 

877
00:48:56,240 --> 00:48:58,320
from that game. 
But basically, so the dungeon 

878
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,040
has access to lots of moves, and
it makes aggressive moves where 

879
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,240
it's trying to essentially 
attack the people inside. 

880
00:49:04,240 --> 00:49:06,720
And it makes manipulative moves 
where it tries to sort of play 

881
00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:10,000
on the client's emotions or the 
emotions of the psycho plumbers 

882
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,680
because, you know, they're not 
made of stone. 

883
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:16,280
They're affected by the things 
they see and it uses that to 

884
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,120
gain tokens. 
But to shade in an individual 

885
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:22,800
dungeon, you pick textures and 
these textures usually just 

886
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,880
reflect the real world issues. 
And then they're bundling 

887
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,440
together sort of a different 
desire. 

888
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:31,200
The the the Psycho dungeon wants
that to bring up this texture 

889
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,920
and it comes with some sort of 
monsters and aesthetics to lean 

890
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,120
on as long as they're all sort 
of included. 

891
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:38,760
Some quote that gives an example
of how stuff might work and 

892
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:40,800
play. 
I recall. 

893
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,880
Yeah, like work is one. 
And the quote is about someone 

894
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,480
talking about how they were so 
dangerously over works that they

895
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,320
were wishing they could have an 
accident just so they wouldn't 

896
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,040
be in work. 
And then it's mentioned that 

897
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,920
this is from a a client whose 
Psycho dungeon was full of 

898
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,080
skeletons of rusted iron. 
And then some of the monster 

899
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,640
suggestions that might be like, 
oh, yeah, if you're using this, 

900
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,680
maybe you use, you know, 
construction equipment come to 

901
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:09,960
life. 
Maybe you use these sort of 

902
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:15,000
goblins or stuff and it can go 
very sort of, they're kind of 

903
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,160
like broad enough that the way 
you imagine them for an 

904
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,560
individual client will really 
affect them. 

905
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:23,640
You know, if parents can be one.
And that's obviously so 

906
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,720
influenced by what what are you 
deciding this character has as 

907
00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:29,720
their relationship with their 
parents and what kind of 

908
00:50:29,720 --> 00:50:31,680
monsters or stuff is that 
inspiring? 

909
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,840
So then the first stretch goal 
is adding some sort of niche 

910
00:50:35,720 --> 00:50:39,160
nastier ones. 
Basically the the first one, I 

911
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,240
ended up moving those stretch 
goals around because just in the

912
00:50:41,240 --> 00:50:43,760
back of my mind I kept thinking 
of more texture ideas and I was 

913
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:47,760
like, OK, yeah, this will be the
first goal because I, I have 

914
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:51,400
thoughts on how I want to do a 
dungeon texture relating to 

915
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,760
dysphoria, basically to gender 
dysphoria specifically. 

916
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:55,880
It's in. 
Yeah. 

917
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:58,440
So that's in the goal. 
Others, maybe the numbers of 

918
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,600
stuff will tweak around as fish 
as ideas come up, but they're 

919
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,800
all kind of about like just 
expanding the base offering of 

920
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:06,320
the game and making it a bit 
bigger. 

921
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:08,400
Everything about the game as it 
is works great. 

922
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:12,760
But you know, if people are 
interested and I have the money 

923
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,520
where I can sort of devote that 
time to it, I'd like to sort of 

924
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:19,240
beef it up in fun ways. 
Yeah, yeah. 

925
00:51:19,240 --> 00:51:22,280
I mean, so dysphoria, medical 
trauma, unemployment are some of

926
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:23,480
the ones listed in this trust 
goal. 

927
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:25,160
Those are. 
There's some, there's some 

928
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:26,880
heaviness to that a bit, you 
know. 

929
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:30,840
Yeah, Yeah. 
Yeah, there's a lot of notes in 

930
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,040
the game about, yeah, how you're
making sure you're sort of 

931
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,800
keeping a, a safe table culture,
definitely. 

932
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,560
But I think if you're all being 
sort of safe and comfortable 

933
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:42,440
with each other, I definitely 
think Psycho Dungeon is a good 

934
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:48,920
game for digging into some quite
sort of familiarly painful 

935
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,400
things. 
Yeah, you know, that's one thing

936
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:55,240
I really enjoy about TGRPGS. 
Like I I TGRPGS are not therapy.

937
00:51:55,240 --> 00:51:57,320
If you need therapy, please go 
get therapy. 

938
00:51:57,680 --> 00:51:59,800
Yeah. 
But I love TRPGS in the sense 

939
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:05,920
that it's a way to engage with 
things that you don't really get

940
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:09,560
to engage with as often in real 
life. 

941
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:14,640
And by things I mean like like 
if you're playing like an action

942
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:16,840
shooter, video game, whatever, 
you're not going out and 

943
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:20,240
actively shooting people, but 
like if you were playing like an

944
00:52:20,240 --> 00:52:26,920
adventure game and you like feel
heroic, you can play like a high

945
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,520
fantasy heroic game and engage 
with those feelings. 

946
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:33,320
In the same way you can watch 
horror movies and engage with 

947
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:39,280
fear and various things that you
don't engage with a lot in real 

948
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:41,440
life. 
And I like being able to play, 

949
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:45,480
to put up role-playing games and
engage with concepts and 

950
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:50,240
emotions and feelings that 
sometimes you don't get to or 

951
00:52:50,240 --> 00:52:56,600
you in a way that should be 
safer because you engage with 

952
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,320
them as much or as little as you
want. 

953
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:02,440
It's kind of like getting as 
close to the danger as you can. 

954
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,920
But there's always still that 
like barrier, like in the way of

955
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:08,680
it, almost like looking at like 
a well, first of all, zoos are 

956
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:10,560
unethical. 
Don't go to a zoo, but like 

957
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,960
looking at like a dangerous 
creature behind a pane of glass.

958
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:17,040
You know what I mean? 
It it's, you know, and a lot of 

959
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:19,880
times with a lot of the space, 
especially a lot of OSR games, 

960
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:22,280
it's very much like, I have a 
sword, I have a shield, I'm 

961
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,040
gonna go like fight a goblin or 
whatever. 

962
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,360
But again, one of the things I 
really like about the way that 

963
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:32,400
you write is it's engagement 
with concepts and and ideas and 

964
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:35,960
themes that are not like any of 
that at all. 

965
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:40,720
Thanks. 
Yeah, I think definitely certain

966
00:53:40,720 --> 00:53:43,280
kind of RPGs. 
I think almost all RPGs are 

967
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:47,440
like, in different ways, 
engaging with empathy. 

968
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:49,600
And sometimes that means kind of
like suspending it if you're 

969
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:51,920
playing like a film where you're
having a bit of a disconnect 

970
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:54,120
from your character. 
But I definitely think the 

971
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,560
Psycho Dungeon and other things 
the, the reason you should have 

972
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:02,560
like open discussions about 
keeping a sort of your table 

973
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,600
safe and comfortable with each 
other is because, yeah, I think 

974
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:10,680
it's a game that does want at 
least as a as a text. 

975
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:13,560
I think it does want some sort 
of like high degree of empathy 

976
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:15,320
to your characters and to your 
client. 

977
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:20,000
And I think in itself, it's then
also saying about how the fact 

978
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,120
of like, if you're going into 
situations where you're seeing a

979
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:27,840
lot of upsetting things, you're 
seeing a lot of people in who 

980
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,320
are struggling in ways you can't
always help, you know, how is 

981
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:34,280
that sort of affecting your own 
empathy? 

982
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:37,480
I think it's only thing like, 
you know, if you're watching an 

983
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:39,200
action scene, you're not doing 
that action scene. 

984
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:43,960
But Psycho Dungeon is all about 
feelings, and feelings can be 

985
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:45,720
that. 
Yeah, TDWG is definitely not 

986
00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:49,440
therapy, but you can find things
therapeutic that aren't therapy 

987
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,200
in its own way, as long as you 
still know where one is 

988
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:55,280
separate. 
Yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's

989
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:59,160
ability to get a little bit of 
catharsis, you know, in, in, in 

990
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,440
hopefully in a, in a weekly or 
biweekly game with friends. 

991
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:10,160
So 75 backers use 70% of the 
way. 25 days left to go. 

992
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,000
Definitely want to go check out 
Psycho Dungeon. 

993
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:14,280
Grab this. 
I want this in hand and the same

994
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:16,760
way that Terminal came in hand. 
A5. 

995
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:19,840
Not the the gift of a much 
bigger game that we got with 

996
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:22,960
Terminal. 
If anyone's on the fence about 

997
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:26,440
Psycho Dungeon, what what what 
can push them over? 

998
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:33,560
I think I'm trying to think, I 
guess I'm sort of imagining 

999
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:35,440
what's on the fence for you and 
then trying to sort of 

1000
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:40,320
triangulate a thing. 
But I guess in terms of I think 

1001
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:44,200
it is a game that is got a real 
sort of bite to it. 

1002
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,320
It's definitely a thing that I 
think I'd encourage about. 

1003
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:49,840
I think it's got so many cool 
ideas at play. 

1004
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:51,880
I think it's going to look 
beautiful. 

1005
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:58,120
And I think we're really going 
to work at exploring the ideas 

1006
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:01,800
the game is interested in. 
But yeah, I also think 

1007
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:03,720
specifically it's it's got a 
bite. 

1008
00:56:03,720 --> 00:56:08,560
It's got a sort of acidicness to
the world it portrays. 

1009
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:14,400
You know, it's about living in a
city like so many that's been 

1010
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:17,600
just like, hit and hit and hit 
by, like, austerity, where your 

1011
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:20,520
job that is like, so necessary 
has been like, privatized 

1012
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:26,840
virtually out of existence. 
And yeah, it's fun and exciting 

1013
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,480
while also being nasty and 
angry. 

1014
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:33,560
And then I think asking the 
question of, like, why do you do

1015
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:34,960
this? 
Like, what do you want out of 

1016
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:37,720
this? 
And I think, yes, it's informed 

1017
00:56:37,720 --> 00:56:39,480
by an experience of a figure I 
ended up quitting. 

1018
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:44,800
But I also think Psycho Dungeon 
can be a game about figuring out

1019
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:51,480
where you belong and what you 
care about and how and how you 

1020
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:54,160
care about yourself. 
I think is like the sort of 

1021
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:58,520
central question of Psycho 
Dungeon, a decent longer in a 

1022
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:00,240
longer sort of multi session 
play. 

1023
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,080
And I think if that's a question
that interests you, but also you

1024
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:08,040
love the idea of being a Cyborg 
who's going to blast apart a 

1025
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:11,920
dragon with a laser cannon and 
the dragon represented someone's

1026
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:13,520
difficult relationship with 
their mum. 

1027
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:15,120
Like that's the game Psycho 
Dungeon. 

1028
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:17,240
It's it's all of these things at
once. 

1029
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:19,880
Yeah, I'm, I'm very excited for 
it. 

1030
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:23,760
I, I can't wait to get it for 
Psycho Dungeon. 

1031
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:28,920
I know you said you had a short 
URL for that, So what is that? 

1032
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:31,680
And also what are where can 
people find the rest of your 

1033
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:32,880
stuff? 
I know we mentioned it before, 

1034
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:35,720
but your shop, your itch, all 
that kind of stuff where if 

1035
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:37,440
people are looking for you, 
where can they find you? 

1036
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:43,000
Yeah, so if you go to 
ratwave.uk, that's my website 

1037
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:45,440
which has on there lots of links
to all my other stuff. 

1038
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:48,560
You know, it has links to all of
the social media I'm on in 

1039
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:52,240
different ways because I don't 
have any consistency of name 

1040
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:54,440
tags. 
It will have link to my H there,

1041
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:57,000
the digital store, and it will 
also have another link to the 

1042
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:00,000
square site I run If you want to
grab things from physical store 

1043
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:04,240
and if you I have lots of short 
form links off of ratwave.uk. 

1044
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,760
So if you just type in psycho 
dungeon.ratwave.uk, you'll get 

1045
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:12,400
the Kickstarter. 
Same way like socials rat wave 

1046
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:14,880
dot dot rat wave dot Uki think 
the web. 

1047
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:18,360
The physical website is Rat wave
dot square dot site, but yeah, 

1048
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:22,480
via Rat Wave dot UK, I've now 
said it too many times. 

1049
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:24,240
I'm starting to worry mixing up 
by there. 

1050
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:26,760
You can find links to 
everything, and I also have a 

1051
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:30,560
big blog on there which has 
loads of like granular 

1052
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:33,080
breakdowns of different things 
about Psycho Dungeon that I find

1053
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:35,720
interesting as well. 
So if that's another thing, if 

1054
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,680
you're still going, just like I 
want to know more, I don't want 

1055
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:41,120
to wait until August or whenever
the game's finished. 

1056
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:43,480
Go read my blog. 
It's full of Psycho Dungeon. 

1057
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:46,440
Here we go. 
Yeah, you definitely want to go 

1058
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:48,040
check out right wave.uk. 
That's right. 

1059
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:51,120
Wave dot U dot K. 
You got to say it a bunch. 

1060
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:53,600
We all listen to radio ads. 
Kayla, thank you so much for 

1061
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:55,120
coming on. 
You know, it's always a pleasure

1062
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:57,960
to have a conversation with you.
Always look forward to 

1063
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,160
whatever's coming next. 
So really excited to see Psycho 

1064
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:03,440
Dungeon get funded and get put 
in our hands. 

1065
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:05,960
So again, if you haven't backed 
it yet, go back it. 

1066
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:07,520
And thank you. 
Thank you so much for being 

1067
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:09,600
here. 
Thank you so much for having me,

1068
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:12,840
it's a blast. 
All right, that'll be it for 

1069
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:14,240
today. 
We'll make sure all the links to

1070
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:16,280
everything are down there, just 
in case you didn't get that. 

1071
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:18,400
It's right wave.uk, and we'll 
see you all later. 

1072
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:19,520
Bye everybody.