1 00:00:15,380 --> 00:00:17,740 Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll podcast. 2 00:00:17,740 --> 00:00:22,220 My name is Ryan and today I am joined by Ben of Zonware. 3 00:00:22,580 --> 00:00:24,100 I guess that's that's how I say how you doing, Ben? 4 00:00:24,100 --> 00:00:25,180 That's perfect. Pretty good. 5 00:00:25,180 --> 00:00:28,000 How are you? Just Ichi, it's not like we have 6 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:29,240 been talking for like an hour a while. 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,680 I got all this stuff set up, but hey, welcome. 8 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,920 Yeah. We just have like, I feel like 9 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,040 my books just merge into yearbooks and they just like 10 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,800 keep going. Yeah, there's AI was trying to 11 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:43,840 goggles some of the things in the background there because 12 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,040 they're a little. Blown up oh they're they're 13 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:47,240 they're blurred here that's fine I. 14 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,080 Believe I'm going to get super distracted. 15 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,360 Boom, unblurred. The problem is it makes me look 16 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:55,120 blurry then. So it like screws? 17 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:55,640 Yeah, that's. Good. 18 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,000 It looks good. I just noticed you have a bird 19 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,960 up there too on your wall. Yeah, yeah, he's a big guy. 20 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:10,360 That's my, my fiance has some, some additions to the house that 21 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,680 are, are are things kind of blend together very well, but 22 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,000 they are very different. And it goes like from like VHS 23 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,880 to a cult like stuff very smoothly. 24 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,880 I I will say. Hey I'm I'm a it looked all it 25 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,640 it it goes. I now see the skull behind your 26 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:28,960 head and stuff too. Yeah, there's some stuff up 27 00:01:28,960 --> 00:01:30,560 there. There's a little mouse too. 28 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,440 Playing a banjo. Yeah, I used to have I don't 29 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:38,560 know if if my if my my skull is still up there. 30 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,520 Let me let me let me do a little tilt is my skull. 31 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,080 Oh, I moved it because it's all just cassette tapes now and a 32 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:46,400 dragon. But it. 33 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,360 Used to be we have the same thing going. 34 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,640 There we go. There used to be a skull right 35 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,360 here and then there's like a taxidermy mouse holding AD 20, 36 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,880 but that also got moved. I have the taxidermy mouse 37 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,880 holding a little banjo. No shot. 38 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:03,040 Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's some he. 39 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,480 Lost his hat, but anyway. And all that fits together 40 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:09,479 games. Weird stuff. 41 00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:12,240 I'm, I think we're good with it. Yeah. 42 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,440 So, so Ben, welcome. Hi. 43 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:17,720 I have been a fan of yours for a very long time. 44 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:19,640 And we finally started talking and you're cool. 45 00:02:19,640 --> 00:02:22,400 So who the heck are you? Who who who is Zonware? 46 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:27,960 What is Zonware? So Zonware originally was the 47 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:33,080 the corporate name for my mega corporation in my first game 48 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:37,920 Dead Halt, which was launched on Zinequest one and and I just 49 00:02:37,920 --> 00:02:40,560 ended up going by the name as the company. 50 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:44,840 Yeah yeah, old cover too, the old letterpress. 51 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,200 You know what's? You know what's the best about 52 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:54,240 this because I have two versions of these and why I have two 53 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:58,640 versions? Do you remember what you did to 54 00:02:58,640 --> 00:03:01,080 this version? Nope. 55 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:07,680 So I got another one after we did the review and then you 56 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,400 doodled and I don't know if you knew it was me or not. 57 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,520 But when I bought another. One, for those in podcast land, 58 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,240 there's a doodle inside. It says not with hyperlinks 59 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,040 because as as we do here on the show, we can play in that there 60 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,080 weren't hyperlinks in Dead Halt. So when I ordered another one 61 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,000 there, I got the like. One of my favorite things in my 62 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,560 collection is is the Now with Hyperlinks doodle inside. 63 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,040 It makes me so excited. Yeah a lot of people have insane 64 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,600 doodles in that. Oh wow you you are another 65 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,840 person with a lot of someone who has run I think the game more 66 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,640 than anyone in my discord or in general. 67 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,040 They definitely have run the most dead halt unless there's 68 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,240 someone out there that's been playing for more than like 3 69 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,160 years. They have a ton of copies of 70 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:59,080 dead Hulk and at this point, like I like I'm good friends 71 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,720 with them and so I have to write different things than all of 72 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:03,480 them or else they're just like the same copy. 73 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:08,440 And they've gotten incredibly absurd and like one of them just 74 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,480 says like F you like stuff. Like they're like, yeah, please 75 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,400 write that in it. I was like, but then people are 76 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,800 going to see it. They're so we go to we're at a 77 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:20,200 con and and they're running dead Hall and I'm playing in their 78 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:26,960 game and they they pass out copies and someone opens it. 79 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:33,040 They're like, oh, it just says like from Zondware. 80 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:34,920 That's. Like, oh, that's awesome. 81 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,720 So yeah, I tried, I tried to put little doodles in as many as I 82 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:40,680 can because I have fun with that. 83 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:45,960 But yeah, so I I made Deadholt on Zinequest one I was, I was 84 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,600 messing around with a bunch of different games. 85 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,360 I was playing Paranoia and my brother and his friends wanted 86 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,560 to play a game. And so I was like, all right, 87 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:57,680 sure. But we're not playing DND 88 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:59,880 because like you don't have the attention span for it. 89 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:01,920 Because he's like, yeah, my friends are going to come over, 90 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,560 we're going to drink a bunch and then we'll play like you'll 91 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:06,440 teach us how to play role-playing games. 92 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:10,120 And I was like, no, I can't do that. 93 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:15,240 But I, I will run something. And so I, I started running. 94 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,480 I've never read the rules for Paranoia, but I started running, 95 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,760 I, I had played in someone else's game that probably also 96 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:24,320 hadn't read the rules for Paranoia. 97 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,440 And so I started running just like a slapstick version of it. 98 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,360 And then when Zinequest came around, I was like, yeah, I 99 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,960 could like write this down and like, make it something fun, 100 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:35,760 which is why a lot of it feels dead. 101 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,760 Halt feels inspired by that. And so then I watched for 102 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:39,840 Zinequest one. It did great. 103 00:05:39,840 --> 00:05:45,520 And then I just kind of got into Zine's and, and enjoying the, I 104 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,120 like how simplistic zines are while still being like, I mean, 105 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:53,040 they're so small to have like such an insane amount of like 106 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,600 game potential in them. And I really like that it just, 107 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:01,840 it feels good so. Yeah, no, I mean, I got AI have 108 00:06:01,840 --> 00:06:06,000 a couple of them here. I see that little fan of fan of 109 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:10,040 scenes here on the show. Just had Xenuary is what what we 110 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,080 called it, 'cause now there's too many fucking denominations. 111 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,560 Mm hmm. You got Zen Topia, you got Zen 112 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,040 quest, you got Zemo or Zen month, you got I'm sure another 113 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,400 one will pop up in like the next time a crowdfunding source gets 114 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,600 it gets big enough. But so Zenuari is just February 115 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,000 from now on for us and that's as as much as we're going to get. 116 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:33,240 But you've you previously bet because you you just had one in 117 00:06:33,280 --> 00:06:36,280 January. Rum Hall part of that you had 118 00:06:36,280 --> 00:06:39,960 another Kickstarter too. That was after the first one. 119 00:06:40,840 --> 00:06:43,800 Yeah, so I've done 4 kick starters at this point The there 120 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,960 was Zine quest 1. I did dead halt Zine quest do 2. 121 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:54,080 I did happy new year 1999, which is AI should have my own games. 122 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,800 Usually I do OK good. Yeah, so I did that one, which 123 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:03,320 is it's just like a Zine full of adventure stuff. 124 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,280 So there's there's four adventures in it. 125 00:07:06,280 --> 00:07:09,480 There's and they're like kind of linked together. 126 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:15,080 So it's kind of like its own, you know, campaign book and 127 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,600 that's leading up to Y2K in the Millennium bug. 128 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:18,760 So it's like screwing everything up. 129 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,480 And then there's a bunch of classes and stuff because I was 130 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:27,480 like the like Star Wars, the Star Wars, I don't know who made 131 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,000 it, Fantasy Flight, the Fantasy Flight Star Wars. 132 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,600 They would do a thing where like to sell more books, they would 133 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,960 put adventures in a book and then also like 2 new classes and 134 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:41,040 then a bunch of weapons. And like, I know it was a like 135 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:45,560 sales tactic, but also I loved it because I loved being able to 136 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,520 like collect different sections of the game. 137 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:51,200 And so that's kind of what Happy New Year was. 138 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,240 I was like, yeah, I'll just put as much stuff. 139 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,920 So it's not like, oh, if you don't want to run the adventure 140 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,680 or you don't want to run it yet, you know, you don't feel ready 141 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:00,160 for it. There's still other stuff in 142 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,080 there that's cool stuff. Yeah. 143 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:07,280 So I ran that and then I ran AI was I was screen printing 144 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,640 T-shirts and I made a bunch of dead Halt ones and I was like, 145 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:12,360 that would be fun. So I released that with a floppy 146 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:16,000 disk adventure just like in the mid, like randomly for yeah, Oh 147 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,640 my God. So that was Cheggy's, that was 148 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:22,640 the the Food Barn. And then and then I just did the 149 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,360 next Kickstarter. I keep saying I'm going to swear 150 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,120 off Kickstarter and never do it again. 151 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,480 And then I launch another one. But you know, that's how it is. 152 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,400 I mean, you were on backer K at this time, right? 153 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:38,480 Kick starter again yeah I keep going back mainly because it's 154 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,520 terrible to learn new things I'm. 155 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:48,000 I agree, I'm right there with. I was like, it was also like 2 156 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,440 months before that I was like, you know what, I'm going to and 157 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,880 like a bunch of people were like you have the Grum Hall like PDF 158 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:54,960 like you could you could do it for zinc class. 159 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,840 I was like, yeah, I could do it. And then I, I was like, Oh no, I 160 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,800 have to do this. And so I just, you know, I knew 161 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,160 how Kickstarter worked and I, I just went with that again, so. 162 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:10,440 It's funny the number of people that do Zine whatever that were 163 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,320 like I wasn't really planning on doing something and then I had 164 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,280 this thing. So I was like, fuck it, like a 165 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,120 week before I decided I was going to do something. 166 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,520 And then, you know, they do a Kickstarter and it happens. 167 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:23,320 And I, you know, that's I love that about Zenuaries Zine, 168 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:27,720 Topias, Inquest, whatever it is. Yeah, it's just like you don't. 169 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,640 And what what's funny is that the number of people that have 170 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,560 said, Oh yeah, I just, I threw out Zenquest 1, Zenquest 2. 171 00:09:33,560 --> 00:09:34,520 I just threw this thing together. 172 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,040 There's some of my favorite games on my shelf. 173 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,320 Like it. It's great when because a lot of 174 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:47,800 times, I mean, yeah, you know what if I get so many games in 175 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:52,120 this space now are products 1st and then kind of like games 176 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,720 second, or at least that's how the design feels. 177 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,240 But when it's the Zenquest project where they're like, 178 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,680 well, I was working on this thing and I really like it and 179 00:09:59,680 --> 00:10:02,040 it's cool. So let me just sort out those 180 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,520 ideas feel much more like it was just fun thing that I was just 181 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,760 doing. And you can kind of tell like 182 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,600 when when those projects come out, when they you know, they 183 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,880 haven't been, you know, like audience tested. 184 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,160 They're not designed to like to sell or whatever. 185 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,160 They're designed to the something you had fun making 186 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:24,440 those best make more of those. I I and I was never planning on 187 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,840 doing a like, I, I was running this game for them and I was 188 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:29,960 like, yeah, I can make like, like I've always, you know, 189 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:31,640 everyone wants to make their own RP. 190 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,080 Anyone that's in RPGs has at some point been like, I could 191 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,080 write like I could write a book, right? 192 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,320 And so, you know, I thought about that for a, because I've 193 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:43,640 been in RPGs for a long time and I was like, oh, I could write a 194 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:45,400 book. And I'm obsessed with like book 195 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,480 binding and all this stuff. So I was like, oh, it all fits 196 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:48,720 together. I could write a book. 197 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,360 And and you know, it becomes that thing is like, yeah, 198 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:53,960 someday I'll write a book, someday I'll write a book, 199 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,600 someday I'll write a book. And then when Zine Quest came 200 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,120 out, I was like, OK, I could do that. 201 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,160 And then maybe I'll write a book, you know, expand on it. 202 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,320 But like, this is a achievable thing that is like this bit, you 203 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,720 know, and like, even if let's say I made 200, I think my 204 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,360 funding goal was 500 bucks. But like, let's say, you know, I 205 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,680 made 500 bucks. I could have bought a printer, 206 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,680 printed it at home and not gotten screwed. 207 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:22,120 You know, it like we always talk about like the Kickstarter thing 208 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:27,040 that's like, Oh no, I didn't realize that, you know, boxes 209 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,840 are going to cost me 30 grand to print in China and then ship and 210 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,040 now I'm, you know, I can't make this game, yadda, yadda. 211 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,600 And Zine makes it where it's like, oh, if you like, it's 212 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,640 really hard to fail financially. Like, yeah, sure, I spent all 213 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,440 the money I made, but I didn't go into debt like going like, 214 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:51,200 oh, I I got to print boxes or you know, the the dice cost this 215 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,560 much or something like that. So it was a totally like a, you 216 00:11:54,560 --> 00:11:57,400 know, it's hard for me to fail at this. 217 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,600 I might as well make it. And even if it's a small book, 218 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,880 like people are going to enjoy, it'll be a fun little game and 219 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:03,640 then you can expand on it easily, which is cool. 220 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:09,240 So I really enjoyed. And after that, because I was 221 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,000 like, oh, I'll make a book after this, right. 222 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:15,120 I'll make the big hard I I love like this size of book. 223 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,040 Like this is like my favorite thing ever. 224 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,480 And I think most of my RPGs are those now other than like the 225 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,720 old one that I've had. And so I was like, I want to 226 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,360 make that. And then I was like, OK, I'll 227 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,560 just make little content continuously. 228 00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:34,080 And then kind of eventually I'm just going to have it, you know, 229 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,920 and you know, then I can edit it to a book. 230 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,000 But I just kind of fell in love with the like, you know, it's 231 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,400 also easier to, like, pitch people on it to be like, hey, 232 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,080 the game's $12.00 or like 15 bucks. 233 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,880 You know, you could play it and see if you like it for that, you 234 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,320 know, price. Whereas, you know, like a $70 235 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,520 hardback is both hard for me to make and hard for me to go. 236 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,960 Like, you need this game. Yeah, right. 237 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,480 No, I mean, and that's, I mean, it still goes back to, you know, 238 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,640 making, making a game versus making a product. 239 00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:11,440 You know, I mean, that's why it's hard for me to call the 240 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:12,880 indie space, the indie space anymore. 241 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:14,560 I mean, anyone that listens to us regularly knows. 242 00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:17,000 I hardly say it because I call it the small market space now, 243 00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:18,920 because that's what everyone's trying to be. 244 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:20,600 Everyone wants to create the next product. 245 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,240 Everyone wants like all the bells and whistles and stuff. 246 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,760 And I'm like, give me a 35 page scene that you like staple 247 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:28,400 together at home and I'll be so happy. 248 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:33,840 Like, you know, because I don't know, again, it's it's it's 249 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,720 design intent, you know, and it comes down to like, if you 250 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,200 design A game that you really like that you're excited to play 251 00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:42,360 and then you're like, well, I guess I might as well print it. 252 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,360 That's peak. But if you're like, I must 253 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,880 design A game for this system because this system is selling 254 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,320 right now. It's like, come on. 255 00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:54,600 Like it's hard both ways because you're like I and I've, I've 256 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,280 absolutely fallen into that. It was like, OK, I need to make 257 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,560 a mothership, you know, expansion, right? 258 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,480 Everyone gets the because you're making stuff and you like, at 259 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,480 the end of the day, of course, you want your own game to be 260 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,520 popular. Like that's the the thing, 261 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:09,880 right? And so it's so hard to, and I 262 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:14,640 think I've I've, you know, kept away from it enough, whereas 263 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,920 like, yeah, or I could just like keep making this stuff in this 264 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,600 weird little bubble I have. And like, I think what keeps me 265 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:22,600 going is like, people just show up. 266 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,920 They're like, hey, I found this like a dude text me. 267 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,080 He's like, message me. He's like, I found this in 268 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,680 Berlin at like a game store. And I just wanted to like, say I 269 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,400 really like, I was like, OK, that's the weirdest thing ever. 270 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,880 And because like I'm not, you know, obviously things go 271 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:42,240 through like sell or sales things because I have them on 272 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,840 IPR, but it's like I didn't to Berlin. 273 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,720 It was probably like all the places in the world or something 274 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:50,840 like that, like the, the, the shop that's over there. 275 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:56,400 But but I mean, it's so, it's so funny because the number of 276 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,160 times that we've that I have like because Hunter wasn't on 277 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,480 this episode. I can't remember who reviewed it 278 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,080 with me, but Hunter wasn't on because every time I bring it 279 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,000 up, I was like, Oh yeah, you, you weren't on the episode. 280 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,480 The number of times that I've talked about this fucking game 281 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,200 and been like play this game. This game is so good. 282 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,000 It's legitimately one of the most underrated games in teach 283 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,480 RPG is like more people need to find and buy and play this game 284 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,240 like it's it is good. It looks good. 285 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:31,240 It like it plays well. Like it's, it's crazy to me that 286 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,040 people, I don't know the the entire concept of like indie 287 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:36,960 and, and all of it where it's just like, this is clearly 288 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,920 better than DND. Can we stop? 289 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,800 Like you don't need to spend another $50 on another garbage 290 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,680 adventure. Just spend like 15 bucks and get 291 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,240 this Zine that is literally where you can play anything. 292 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,640 You can just get in the elevator and go anywhere and play 293 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,080 anything. And it's it's good. 294 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,880 It's great for for those. So we're talking about it a 295 00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:59,200 bunch and we've reviewed it on the show. 296 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,280 So go watch the episode. At some point while we're 297 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,680 chatting, I'm sure I'll hop into YouTube and and actually hunt 298 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:08,360 down what number episode it is. But for those who don't know 299 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,200 Deadholt, like what what is what is this? 300 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:11,160 What is? What's the pitch? 301 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:16,960 Yeah, so this is, I was always into cyberpunk games and I 302 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,400 always felt they were like so gritty that I couldn't grasp 303 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,520 onto them. And the first time I played this 304 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:28,480 weird like telephone game of Paranoia where people, I 305 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,840 literally played in the game where I think the DM had never 306 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,680 run or read the book for Paranoia, someone else had run 307 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,360 it from them. So it's like this horribly like 308 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,320 telephone version of this game. But the thing that I enjoyed so 309 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:48,360 much about it was that they, I didn't know what I was getting 310 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:49,880 into. And they were like, let's play a 311 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:51,560 game. And we just started playing the 312 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:53,960 game. And so Deadholt was my, my 313 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,760 hopeful access to that. Where is like, we all sit down 314 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,440 and you go, hey, you are in this megalithic hotel. 315 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,880 You go to the bartender and you are here to get a job. 316 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,079 If you leave, the game is over because the game is here, right? 317 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,839 And so it's this megalithic hotel run by a supercomputer who 318 00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:14,839 is kind of vague and in the background. 319 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,480 And the supercomputer was put in place to kind of manage the 320 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,640 hotel. But he has gone so out of 321 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:27,520 control with like power and just chaos that he keeps expanding 322 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:33,360 the hotel and making it more and more chaotic to a, to a like map 323 00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:35,760 that you don't understand because he's, you know, he's 324 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:37,720 doing his own thing. It's that otherworldly being 325 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:42,040 type thing. And so you are just one of the 326 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,000 maintenance crew trying to keep the hotel from falling apart. 327 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:50,520 And so the bartender gives you jobs to like go to floor 55 and 328 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:52,920 like repair the food VAT or something. 329 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,160 That's one of the adventures. There's just a big food VAT and 330 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,560 you got to go to floor 55. And so I really wanted, 331 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,280 especially for people that hadn't played RPGs, I like a lot 332 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,160 of the like rules light games, but they kind of just feel like 333 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,640 stripped down versions of games. I mean, how many like stripped 334 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,280 down versions of like DND are there? 335 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,520 And so I was like, I want you to have like the crazy amount of 336 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:17,240 flavor from one of these big games. 337 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,560 Like like look at like a Newman era where it's like this whole 338 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:22,440 other thing. I was like, I want that, but I 339 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,080 want you to be able to play it without even knowing it, what it 340 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,440 is. So I, I said it on this hotel 341 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:29,520 where there are some very key things. 342 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,480 You always end up in the bar. You always ask for a job and you 343 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,680 always take the elevator to these new floors. 344 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,760 There's a gash upon where all of your items are randomly, 345 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:43,040 essentially randomly collected by putting gold into the gash 346 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,920 upon machine. And so it's this, everything in 347 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,520 the design is meant to get you playing really fast and like put 348 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,640 you in really, really quickly into an adventure. 349 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,360 And then all of the floors, there's a whole bunch of 350 00:18:56,360 --> 00:19:00,360 adventures built on specific floors, but the main idea was 351 00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:03,640 that the hotel can be anything. So you can have the elevator 352 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:05,840 open to a floor from a different game. 353 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:10,120 And the reason that started is because I literally was, I was 354 00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:12,400 doing it for a lot of DND books. But like, if someone was like, 355 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,520 hey, I want to play Dead Hall, I'd be like, OK, like right now. 356 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,600 And I was like, OK, so I would pick up, I'd I'd have like my 357 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,200 dead halt rules and I'd pick up an adventure and literally start 358 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,360 playing from a random page on that. 359 00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:28,840 It'd be like, all right, we're going in that I showed the 360 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,640 haunted element act is like a perfect version of that is 361 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,840 because they're all like one floor, like if there's a lot of 362 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,080 one floor adventures in there. And so I've played so many games 363 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,080 where it's like, all right, the crew has to go do this thing. 364 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,040 You know, if you take Tomb of Horrors an example, it's like, 365 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,680 OK, you have to go get this item. 366 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,800 And then they appear in Tomb of Horrors after the elevator lands 367 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,600 on that floor. And so you end up just getting 368 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,640 this crazy combination of like, we're in an adventure that's 369 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,480 supposed to work this way, but we are breaking the rules. 370 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,400 And I think that's fun. Like you run into Tomb of 371 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,880 Horrors with like an energy pistol and that's hilarious to 372 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,280 me. And it works because like, it 373 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,160 can be so chaotic that if it's a one shot, you know, you can ruin 374 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,680 the adventure in that be OK. And if it isn't, you can go back 375 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:17,400 to the bar where you always restart. 376 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:21,440 And it's not like it, you know, it kind of has a W Marches kind 377 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,000 of vibe where you always end up back at the bar. 378 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,720 And so it's a good way to be like, OK, the next adventure can 379 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,960 be somewhere else. We can ruin what the plan was 380 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,760 because it's going to be chaotic and it's probably going to fall 381 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,680 apart, and the fact that we get to go back and get a new job 382 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,120 lets us change that. So that's kind of the whole 383 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,240 whole vibe. Yeah, I mean, that's, and that's 384 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,800 my whole point is like mechanically it's great. 385 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,040 Love it. Also, I I did go on YouTube. 386 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,880 It's episode 78. We are now episode 312, just so 387 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,480 you know how long ago it was. And that was back in the time 388 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,800 when we used to do like 2 plus hour episodes. 389 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,360 So if you want to dig through Dead Hall for 2 1/2 hours, go 390 00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:04,760 watch episode 78. Yeah, we used to literally go go 391 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:06,960 page by page and like dig apart everything. 392 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:11,840 I miss those days sometimes. But it's it's so great. 393 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,000 And again, like it it, it looks good. 394 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,720 It plays great. But that's kind of like the, I 395 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:19,240 don't know if I had to sell somebody on it. 396 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,280 It's literally you can play anything anytime, like whatever, 397 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,880 like anything that you're wanting to play. 398 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,040 If you're like, oh, I've been thinking about Cyberpunk where 399 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,440 I've been thinking about like the old world, like whatever. 400 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,760 Like just do you hit a fucking elevator button? 401 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:40,880 And like you said, the the kind of anachronism of running into a 402 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,040 fucking dungeon full of goblins with like a slicer pistol or 403 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,880 something like is perfect because you're breaking it in 404 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:49,800 all like the funniest, best ways. 405 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,840 And the fact that like it doesn't really matter because 406 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,920 again, like just get back on the elevator and leave. 407 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,600 If you break it so bad you can't fix it, I don't know. 408 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,080 It's, it's great. It's great game, play the game. 409 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:04,760 And there's, and, and there's, we've already talked about, 410 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,120 there's so much stuff for it because you got, you got New 411 00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:12,080 Year's, you got, I mean, if you get a floppy disk, you got, you 412 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,320 got all a floppy disk drive, you get all of this. 413 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,400 Regret the floppy disk, mainly because I locked them onto the 414 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,080 floppy disks and there's some of my favorite adventures and some 415 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:23,080 people are like, where do I get this? 416 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,080 I'm like, I'll send you the floppy disk. 417 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:28,800 It's so funny because it's never is. 418 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,200 These are never going to be anywhere but on me is right. 419 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,000 Yeah, there's, I think. Do you have that that that? 420 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:36,560 One I've all I've all I've all of. 421 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,800 Them OK, there's like 2 there's like two or three that I put on 422 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,280 floppy disk that were also online and have come out so but 423 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:48,720 cheggies Fortra and Fortra forgotten will always be on the 424 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:53,120 floppy disks and I have not given them anywhere else and I 425 00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:55,320 don't I said I wouldn't and I haven't yet. 426 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,760 It's been years. So if people have asked me, 427 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,360 they've been like, OK, like, can you send me that adventure? 428 00:23:02,360 --> 00:23:04,760 I'm like, I I will absolutely send you a floppy disk for it 429 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:06,840 100%. And they're like, no, but I 430 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,640 don't have a floppy disk for it. I'm like, I know it's kind. 431 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,600 Of like plug it in your computer it works I. 432 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,120 Also understand that like that's asking people to buy things and 433 00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:19,840 I'm not always super like, you know, not everyone has a ton of 434 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,880 money. So but I've always been, and I 435 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,000 will say this here, if people watch, it is like you can ask 436 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,120 other people for the adventures and that's part of the community 437 00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:31,640 building thing. And I'm totally OK with that. 438 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,240 What what you do to ask each other? 439 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,560 The obviously I made them very hard to get and that's so that 440 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,480 you either have to, you know, like go to a library, they have 441 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,960 floppy disk like drives it like all of my libraries. 442 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,920 And I think that's a fun little adventure that I've put you on 443 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,040 to try and get them off of the disk. 444 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,040 Or you can ask other people. And that's also I. 445 00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:57,040 Mean, I'll talk about it too. I mean directly over your left 446 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,240 shoulder, you have like a stack of VH s s, right? 447 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,360 Like we've already talked about, I got a stack of cassette tapes. 448 00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:09,720 Like physical media is so important and I love like 449 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,760 there's a bunch of people kind of in this space that are like, 450 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,760 no, there's no PDF. Like buy the book out of made 451 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,080 100. And I'm like, Nope, I have one 452 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,720 or fuck me forever. I guess it's on my list and I 453 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,920 have a list of ones that I will hunt down forever. 454 00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:27,760 I don't need to hunt these down because but there's there's 455 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,960 people in the scene right now like I don't know if you know 456 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,320 Tanner Simpson, who did like wanted reward, but he's got a 457 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,520 gig coming out that's on a zip disk, which is not a floppy disk 458 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,160 and like drives for that are like insane. 459 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,000 So I'm. Like I have a zip disk drive 460 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,880 downstairs I have I don't have any zip disk so I'm going to 461 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:50,840 have to look that up. I am what's his name the MIRU 462 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:58,520 guy put I have a MIRU disk for its I can see it, but he did 463 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,520 mini disc and I think there's like it was never an intention 464 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:07,480 to like not pay wall. What's the you know, like block 465 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,720 thing yeah yeah, I have that over there somewhere which is so 466 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,000 cool. Also don't have a mini. 467 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,560 I have a lot of weird old tech, but there is a lot of it. 468 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,440 I have laser disc. I have all those things, but I 469 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,240 don't have a mini disc player and I'm not buying it. 470 00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:21,680 Well, I probably will buy one just for that at some point. 471 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:28,280 But the I think the cool thing, it kind of how do I, how do I 472 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,160 put this? It's like a game within a game 473 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:36,320 to me of this like you have to kind of do some work to find 474 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,160 this. And I've had tons of people be 475 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,280 like, Oh my God, I went like I got the floppy disk. 476 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,480 I've had it either for years or some people like buy it just 477 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,440 straight from me or, you know, I've sent tons of floppy disks 478 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,360 out and they've been like, oh, I, I, you know, had to go to my 479 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,440 local library or like I went in my parents attic and like dug up 480 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,080 their old computer and got the P. 481 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,640 And that's so cool to me. Like I think that's the coolest 482 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,560 thing ever. And it like the fact that I was 483 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,160 able to make it a little adventure and then people that 484 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,400 have read it have been like it, it felt better. 485 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,920 Like if you just sent it to me I would have been like neat that's 486 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,200 cool. But like the fact that it like 487 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:21,560 they feel special that they have been able to like like unopen. 488 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,240 This treasure chest is fun to me. 489 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,600 That's that is how we all used to feel. 490 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,280 I don't know how old you are. I'm sure I'm older, but that was 491 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,320 what life used to be like. Everything felt special because 492 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:34,880 everything took a little bit of work. 493 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,920 Now everything is so fucking easy and our attention spans are 494 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,520 this fucking big. Like that's one reason I love 495 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,920 like I become obsessed with cassette tapes because just the 496 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,320 process of like taking it off the shelf, cracking the thing 497 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,760 open, like I have the coolest looking like cassette tape 498 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,440 player ever. That lets you see the tape and 499 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,600 then part like 20 minutes in, you got to flip it to the other 500 00:26:58,600 --> 00:26:59,960 side. Like now I just use this as a 501 00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:01,640 timer. I wake up in the morning, I pick 502 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,200 a tape, I put it in and I drink my coffee and I tell myself, am 503 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,120 I doing a side, B side or both before I get up and work. 504 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,640 And then when it's done and it clicks, it's off and I just take 505 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:18,080 it out and go start working versus, you know, like Spotify 3 506 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,280 hour playlist where like it'll just drone forever. 507 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,680 Like even even streaming services that I still have 508 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:27,080 because I've camped a bunch, I turn them all to ad supported 509 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,840 because my ADHD, I've actually been able to watch movies 510 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,280 knowing that like every 30 minutes I get a break, you know, 511 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:35,280 and it's. Great. 512 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:37,320 It's so good. It's hell. 513 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:38,760 And I've got some buddies do the same thing. 514 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,120 They're like, dude, we actually got to sit and like watch a 515 00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:44,200 movie because 20 minutes in, I got to go go to the bathroom and 516 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,000 I got to go get a drink and we could focus in. 517 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,320 And requiring that little bit of work, like you said, makes 518 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,320 everything feel a little bit more special, makes you feel 519 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,440 more connected to it. It's not just this thing and 520 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,560 physically owning it to knowing that like you have it, I don't 521 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,720 know, it's, it's great. I love that you did it. 522 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,640 Don't give it to anybody, make them do the thing. 523 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,800 It's also with like physical books, you know, I, I can do 524 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,560 this thing that we're talking about where I could be like, you 525 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,600 know, and like, whereas I have, you know, PD FS, I've, I've 526 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,160 never, I've learned over because like originally in dead hall, I 527 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,240 was like the PDF. I don't even know if I'm going 528 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,280 to make one. And then I, I did absolutely 529 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:29,480 realize it was a accessibility thing, just with like some 530 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,480 people are not great at, you know, like textbooks is annoying 531 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,400 and people don't have space. I was living in New York City at 532 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:35,840 the time and did not have space for books. 533 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,440 So I understood that. And then also people were lived 534 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,080 in places where shipping it was like absurd and they were like, 535 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,080 is there a possibility for PDF? That's why I did the PDF, but I 536 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,280 don't have any. I think I have like a couple PDF 537 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,320 books. Most of them I have printed out 538 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,400 into the well, I have a ton of PDF books, but I basically 539 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,280 they're just in a folder. I don't think I'll ever look at 540 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,680 them because because they're not like a, oh, the you know, the 541 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,960 book or like I'll be drinking my coffee and like look over and be 542 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,240 like, I'll read that one today. I can't do that with PDFs And so 543 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:09,800 I've always been kind of iffy on it. 544 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,280 The same with music. I I'm a big CD person. 545 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,880 I have, they're probably, you can probably see them like way 546 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,480 in the background there. I have a bunch of CD shelves 547 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,560 because it's the same thing. It's like, I won't ever like go 548 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,080 and just scroll through to like listen to something. 549 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,960 And so I love being like, oh, what do you want to put on and 550 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:29,720 like go down the list and like grab 1. 551 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:31,720 And so I the same thing with games. 552 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:36,720 It's like it makes me play games more having them like as a thing 553 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,160 that it's like, oh, like they kind of nag me, which is good. 554 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,160 I also sold a lot because if I have anything like what's behind 555 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,320 you, I get massive analysis paralysis and so I just won't do 556 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,760 anything. But that's a me problem. 557 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,680 I mean, it keeps going. I got like 10 boxes over there, 558 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,920 like 4 boxes in my closet. I got a bed elevated so it was 559 00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:02,280 high enough that I could fill the bottom with boxes. 560 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,400 I mean, that's basically why we started the show. 561 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,400 Why I started the show was because I too many fucking games 562 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,600 and I, I'm, I need to read them. So when we were doing weekly 563 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,120 reviews that forced me to read a book every week and and pick a 564 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,280 game and then the number of games we played because we 565 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,640 reviewed them, you know, is a big part of it. 566 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,960 I, I, I'm a big PDF guy, You know, part of it is 567 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,800 accessibility thing, but also like at work, I can just pull it 568 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,160 up on my phone on my break or something. 569 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,160 I'm not going to take a toe me to work every time. 570 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,560 I have a kindle with a bunch of stuff on it but that's like the 571 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,440 closest I'll get to is like if because if I go on vacation I'm 572 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,800 not bringing. I'm not bringing 5 books to 573 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,560 read. I do. 574 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,800 We also use. Obviously we use APDF for their 575 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:51,240 reviews, but also I like, I like pages, PDFs. 576 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,400 Like if you just have spreads, that's fine. 577 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:59,680 But I, and I like doing reviews with PDFs because I can just 578 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,160 blow it out as big as I want. Look at like 1 paragraph at a 579 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,000 time and let my brain focus. Like if I have a big old book in 580 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,480 front of me like and I'm trying to analyze it, there's too much 581 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,080 going on. Like I need to like zoom in and 582 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:13,600 like cover the other page or something. 583 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,160 So, so like you said, part of it's an accessibility thing. 584 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,680 It makes it easier for me to, to do analysis and stuff like that 585 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,400 for it. But I mean, also when they're 586 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,400 hyperlinked and, and screen readable and you know, they 587 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,480 have, they have bookmarks and stuff, that's also a huge thing. 588 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,400 I know a lot of like, you know, when I run games anymore, a lot 589 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,280 of times I'll just have an iPad. And it's so much easier to 590 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,720 bounce your PDF on an iPad than to like flip through a giant 591 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,360 tome you have on the table. But. 592 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:46,520 We, we have in the discord recently I posted the dead Halt 593 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,680 PD or the Grumhall PDF when that was coming out. 594 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,800 And I did have one of my, one of my friends go, hey, does it have 595 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,880 hyperlinks? And they're absolutely 596 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,960 referencing your video because long ago everyone's like, boy. 597 00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:02,880 And I was like, I didn't even think about hyper, you know, 598 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,960 'cause I just don't ever use, you know. 599 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,400 And so I mean, it's like a lot of people have been like, oh, 600 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,240 it's so much better. And so Grom Hall will be getting 601 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,640 hyperlinks when it's actually correct PDF but. 602 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,080 Can I give you the secret like extra step hyperlink that is 603 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,920 like super easy but makes it even better. 604 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:29,680 Hyperlink all of the page numbers on every page back to 605 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:34,640 the table of contents. OK, just so you click on the. 606 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,600 Because you can be like, OK, I want to check out weapons. 607 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,000 Let me go to the table of contents, click weapons, boom. 608 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,080 And then once you've read the weapons section, you can just 609 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,680 click on the page number and go back to David content to be 610 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,600 like, now I want to look at this so every page will take you 611 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,000 back. You can go back. 612 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:51,880 I didn't even. Yeah, see that troika. 613 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,800 Yeah. I I never, yeah, I never really 614 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:56,440 do anything on the PDF. So yeah. 615 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,920 Troika has a thing where they, I think it's like they, they have 616 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,760 headers on each page and like all of the even number pages, I 617 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,040 think take you back to the day of the contents and all of the 618 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,120 odd number pages take you back to the beginning of the chapter 619 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,360 you're reading. So you can constantly do it. 620 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,720 And if you use like Indesign or anything like that, you can just 621 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,760 make it as like your, your the, the parent page or whatever. 622 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:20,760 If you just make like whatever you make as your like the page 623 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,880 number thing that all you have to do is hyperlink that one time 624 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:25,280 and it hyperlinks every. Page. 625 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:26,960 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Super easy. 626 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,320 Well, I'll be talking to you when I, when I, when I get close 627 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:30,880 for this, then it will. It will, yeah. 628 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,200 Sure, as long as it's hyperlinked otherwise I'm you're 629 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,280 going to have to doodle in another scene and and and send 630 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,440 me another one. So we so we've been talking 631 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,920 about Deadholt so I have the original stuff you there there 632 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,800 is the new version. This is the one that it was on 633 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:50,120 your shop, but it it, it, it, it was part of the the new 634 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,200 Kickstarter, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 635 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,880 I put all the old books on. Yeah, this it's yeah. 636 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,240 It's just got a new cover. It's a pretty new coat, is what 637 00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:58,440 it is, yeah. Which is? 638 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,440 Oh, absolutely. Which is great. 639 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,240 I'm dropping stuff. I have the original cover was 640 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:04,920 letterpress and I really love it. 641 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:10,320 It sells horrifically bad because I mean, like, look at 642 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,800 this on a shelf. It's just like a black BLOB. 643 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,600 I love it and I think it feels really like nice if you know 644 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,000 what the book is. It's kind of like I kind of went 645 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,600 like straight to the the, you know, when they do like a. 646 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,239 Yes, the special edition version. 647 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,800 The Special Edition. Covers or it's just like a nice 648 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,000 crisp thing. But what I did realize is that 649 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:33,000 you kind of have to know what the game is to want the special 650 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,239 edition. So I put a whole bunch of art 651 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,679 because Marlo, my fiance does all a lot of the art for all the 652 00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:42,840 games. I've had tons of guest artists 653 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,800 and like Emerson Brown did a whole bunch of the the monsters 654 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,199 and stuff. But all of the art is really 655 00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:52,840 fancy. People like when I open it up, 656 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:54,679 it's great. But I didn't even know like this 657 00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:56,920 stuff was in it. So I was like, all right, I have 658 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,480 a bunch of the old books still, which the rules have been edited 659 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,520 like 10 times In the final print of it. 660 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,840 I was like, let's just give it like a cool dust jacket and like 661 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,920 up to date it with kind of like how Grumhall looks so that on 662 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,840 the shelf, you know, they're kind of shinier. 663 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,080 But anyway, yeah, so we did updating with a with a nice 664 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:17,880 little dust jacket. I'm. 665 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,000 Going to keep it a buck. The first time I saw this I 666 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,240 think I bought it because it looked like this and was like 667 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,160 whatever this is I needed and I got. 668 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,480 You then. And then and then you got me. 669 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,960 So I'm looking at my editions. This is first edition, 5th 670 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:33,680 printing. That's first edition, 5th 671 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:38,400 printing. What's what's this one edition 672 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:44,960 4th printing 02021 That's my oldest one I think is the is is 673 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:52,240 the 4th the 4th printing crazy. I have like a really poorly I 674 00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:55,200 have like a waterlogged version over here that's probably my 675 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,880 original copy because I actually ran it so much Yeah yeah, 676 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,960 there's I still have wow. I immediate poll was the 300 of 677 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,240 300 original printing that's water damaged. 678 00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:11,720 That's so perfect though. And they have gotten better over 679 00:36:11,720 --> 00:36:13,560 the years. The the most recent dead halt 680 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,600 has. I wouldn't. 681 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:21,040 I'm not going to say it's it's typo free, but it's much better 682 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,000 than the first edition. Well, even when I go on my 683 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,320 Discord, I I've been it keeps getting because when I go into 684 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,120 my discord, I'm sorry, my Dropbox and I look, I look for 685 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,200 dead hall. I have what do I have? 686 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,920 I have 1.21 point 3 and 1.4 PDFs in here. 687 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,640 So just in just in there. We've got we've got better, but 688 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,960 it's hard, hard to get better though, but so that's dead hall. 689 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,040 We talked about dead hall. This is the new cover. 690 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,200 It's great. I like it. 691 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,880 It's awesome. It's exactly what the people 692 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,840 want. I'm always going to be like, 693 00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:58,760 give me that big old circle guy. You still. 694 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,440 Got the old circle underneath. It, I got it, I got plenty of 695 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,760 them, but what is this? What is Grumhall? 696 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,840 This is the newest game. Yeah, so I was, it's been a long 697 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:14,280 time since it's been like 6 or 7 years since Dead Hall came out, 698 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,880 which made me incredibly sad to. I mean, I guess that's cool, but 699 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,680 but I went when I looked at that and so I like made a whole bunch 700 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,720 of different stuff for it and just expanded a little bit. 701 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,480 But I've been wanting to make this much bigger game we're 702 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,200 talking about. What's the book that I've always 703 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,160 wanted to make was this game called a Felion Space, which is 704 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,800 basically just the Dead Haul rules on steroids. 705 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,160 If Dead Haul is like the one shot version of the game, this 706 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,200 would be the actual like big game. 707 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,120 And so I was like, I'm going to do that now. 708 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:51,000 And I like started trying to do it. 709 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,000 And it was such a big jump because I hadn't like written a 710 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:59,120 game in a while that I was like, I'm like getting overloaded with 711 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,040 what this is. So I started writing the base 712 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,120 rules and then like writing these little modules. 713 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,280 And I was like, I don't know if any of this is going to work, 714 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,320 but it still has the base dead halt rules. 715 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,880 So I was like, what if I made something smaller that can mess 716 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,600 around with all these like module rules that I'm trying to 717 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,120 like screw around with in this big game? 718 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,840 And then I just released it for free and like, and then moved 719 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:23,440 on. And then I would have a basis to 720 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,960 work off of. And so Grumhall, I was like, OK, 721 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,600 I'm just going to do that to Dead Hall and like make all 722 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,480 these modules and like change the base game. 723 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:36,040 And I was like, but then I either, you know, make the other 724 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:41,160 game like an old version of it, where is this new version? 725 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,960 And I would have to delete a bunch of stuff in it that I I 726 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,080 think works. And so I was like, what if I 727 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:50,760 just made Deadholt again, but basically cut half of the game 728 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,400 off and just made new stuff. And so when I started doing 729 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,360 that, I was like, I'm going to also theme it differently 730 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,840 because a lot of people Deadholt is this kind of weird. 731 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,800 Like when you Deadholt in the game, which is you get 5 mods 732 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,440 and you basically die five times your fifth life, kind of the cat 733 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,640 thing. And then when you get that fifth 734 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:14,120 mod, you run off into the hotel and you're this like this your 735 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,600 clunk head, which is this like screwed up person. 736 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,080 So there's like this horror element to Dead Halt, but it's 737 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,840 also very like clunky technology cyberpunk. 738 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,440 And so some people play it really goofy, but some people 739 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,880 like I've played in games where it was like kind of like a 740 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,440 horror game. I was like, oh, so you like this 741 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,360 like weird second part of Dead Halt. 742 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,360 And so I was like, what if I just make the horror game? 743 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:40,120 You know, I cut out a lot of the like the technology is still all 744 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:41,400 there. I like having the consoles on 745 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,320 different floors. I like having the supercomputer. 746 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,960 But for Grumhall, I was like, I'm going to basically hack dead 747 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,760 halt apart and make it a horror version. 748 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:54,280 So new hotel, the new hotel is this like very shining up on a 749 00:39:54,280 --> 00:40:00,400 hill, like in the mountains. This like corrupted hotel with a 750 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,240 supercomputer that's screwed up in not like a it's sort of a 751 00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:07,840 glitchy way, but in like a it's. Essentially, and I was like what 752 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:12,400 what is what is how does this go if if all the computer consoles 753 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,360 and things like this are more towards the like horror end of 754 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,120 things. And so I I revamped some of the 755 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,240 rules. The biggest one is the how you 756 00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:22,800 die. Instead of getting mods, you 757 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,840 basically get dropped into this like if you're beaten beyond 758 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,240 belief, which is you get to your wound threshold, you're dropped 759 00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:34,480 into the primordial soup, which is this big like lake filled. 760 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,440 It was like a once a graveyard and now it's where you get 761 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,160 healed, but you come back with mutations. 762 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,320 And so that's how you come back. You can come back four times, 763 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,920 but on the 5th mutation you meld into the soup. 764 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:47,440 And so that's your your permit death. 765 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,440 And so I wanted to mess around with these modules that I was 766 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,160 playing the other game one which is a Zon cycler, which is 767 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,040 essentially your weapons will break and you can put them into 768 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,600 the machine to turn the back into gold, basically big recycle 769 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:05,640 machine. And then there was also like, I 770 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:09,000 had this idea for downtime, which was like in between games, 771 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:13,000 your characters will do things that you wrote down and then 772 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,760 when you come back to play again, that thing is done. 773 00:41:16,240 --> 00:41:18,560 So it kind of like encourages you to come back to the game 774 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,160 because if you wanted to like build a weapon or something, 775 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,120 there's a whole bunch of different rules for, you know, 776 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:24,640 what you can do on your downtime. 777 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,360 It happens in between games. So instead of like you going, 778 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,080 oh, we're all going to hang out around the fire and like work on 779 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:31,880 our things. You basically say like in 780 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:33,640 between sessions, I'm going to do this and then when we come 781 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,360 back, it's going to be done. And so these are all things that 782 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:37,960 like, I didn't know if they would work. 783 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,960 And so I was like, I'm going to cut out in Dead Halt. 784 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,000 There's like you can, you can rebuild the fall bar and like 785 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:46,840 put new modules into it or every. 786 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,520 So I cut out that stuff and replaced it with this like Zon 787 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:54,840 cycler and 100 new items and the blights and afflictions, which 788 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,480 are these like different things that you can do to your body. 789 00:41:57,720 --> 00:42:00,400 And so this was me essentially being like all the things I 790 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,760 wanted to mess with Dead Halt on, I'm going to mess with it 791 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,080 with this new game so that I don't break the original game. 792 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,880 And I very well might break this game, but that's OK, right? 793 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,440 And so I released as a fee free PDF. 794 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,280 There's like you can rebuild items with junk. 795 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,520 You can like change how things work in the game. 796 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:21,960 And I wanted to see if these things worked. 797 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,600 And to do it, I was like, I might as well just hack the 798 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,160 game, make it something that's different than some other people 799 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,160 that really like this horror aspect could play. 800 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,280 And and then when I get to the next game, I have this good 801 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,080 basis of like, did this work or did we play it? 802 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,840 And it was horrible. So that's kind of the the main 803 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:40,520 thing. It's basically a big play test 804 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,320 for this other game. But then it became a play test 805 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:44,920 for itself because we were having fun with it. 806 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:47,120 Yeah. I. 807 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,160 Mean, you know. I love dead hall. 808 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,680 I've said this over and over again, I'll never stop saying 809 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:54,800 it, but I'm also like an edgelord piece of shit. 810 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:59,880 So like having like a dark fucked up version really speaks 811 00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:01,680 to me. That's what a lot of people were 812 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:02,800 talking about and I was like, you know what? 813 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:04,040 I'll. Go deep into it, which is so 814 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,080 funny because I'm not, I'm not a horror guy. 815 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,480 I love the like fringe of it. Like I love the dark space kind, 816 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,360 like that kind of stuff, but like really gritty horror. 817 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,800 I'm like totally like skeeved out by. 818 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:20,480 So it's so funny writing this because I have some friends and 819 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,640 I was like, is this good? And they're like, yeah, dark 820 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,720 worse make it worse. Like makes me uncomfortable, 821 00:43:25,720 --> 00:43:27,920 which is fun. It's fun to, you know, try that 822 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:29,200 out. Yeah. 823 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:31,280 No, it's, it's. Great. 824 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:36,800 And I mean, it's a new game. Which means we get to. 825 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,320 Talk about on the show, which means I got to get 100 actually 826 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,960 beyond the episode this time since it's been 2 years since we 827 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,600 talked about before and I can promise you it won't be 2 1/2 828 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:53,000 hours this time but but my. Brain just completely broke for 829 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:54,480 a second but. We so we got to do that. 830 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,320 So, so this is how you already put it on Kickstarter. 831 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:04,000 It funded it exists also like it's already like on your on 832 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:05,200 your website. Yeah. 833 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,360 So I I released it. I released these versions which 834 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,080 are like play test versions because I was like, OK, I'm 835 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,000 going to make a whole print run and then do the same thing with 836 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,880 dead Halt, which was like I printed 500 copies or whatever 837 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,440 and then found a whole bunch of typos and then printed it. 838 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,320 You know, I just kept doing this thing, which is why I like Zenes 839 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,680 because that's accessible. But this time I was like, you 840 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:27,840 know what, I'm going to make play test so that people can 841 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:29,600 play the game. Tell me all these things that 842 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,040 are wrong with it, which people have done. 843 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:36,440 And I, this time I decided to print everything at home. 844 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,280 Like the entire book is done in my backroom. 845 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:41,760 I stayed with them. I do all the stuff. 846 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:46,680 And so everyone's gotten lots of different editions of the game. 847 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:50,120 Oh yeah. Because I, every time people 848 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,760 tell me something's like wrong with it, the next time someone 849 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,320 orders something and I print, you know, 5 new books or 850 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,840 whatever, I, you know, fix the things that were messed up. 851 00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:01,600 And, you know, it's all, it's a lot of small stuff. 852 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,640 You know, it'll be like a word is misspelled or like it 853 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,360 something's hard to read or something like that. 854 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:11,720 And so it's been this really fun way for me to like build the the 855 00:45:11,720 --> 00:45:14,640 perfect game by just like every time someone orders something, 856 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:16,720 they get like a different version and eventually we'll get 857 00:45:16,720 --> 00:45:19,560 to 1 point O and that'll be like the that'll be essentially the 858 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,720 Kickstarter edition, which is now that I've had a play test 859 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:25,880 also, the PDF was free. I tested that out. 860 00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:30,560 Everything ended up free because I was like, I stress about like 861 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,360 how to get games out and I hate asking people for money because 862 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,480 I'm a terrible salesman. And so I was like, screw it. 863 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,800 This year everything's free so that people can play it because 864 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,360 my favorite part is just people telling me about their games. 865 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:45,720 So I was like, screw it. But obviously the physicals, I 866 00:45:45,720 --> 00:45:48,880 still have to, you know, print them and stuff so they're super 867 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:49,880 cheap. And I was like for the 868 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:55,480 Kickstarter, I'm going to do this the fun, the like the final 869 00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:59,240 edition, I'll get fancy covers printed and like update the art 870 00:45:59,240 --> 00:46:03,080 and stuff like that. But this, this like edit and 871 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:07,400 reprint and edit and reprint has made that like super accessible 872 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,600 to me because I don't have to stress about like, oh, this is 873 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:12,280 the big one. We got to make sure everything's 874 00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:15,320 absolutely perfect. No, that's great. 875 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,120 I I mean I printed. A. 876 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:22,640 So I put out a game and it had an ashcan version that I printed 877 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:27,880 for packs and immediately upon receiving it found so much wrong 878 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,520 with it. So that's super nice to be able 879 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,320 to do to just be like like at one point I had like initiative 880 00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,760 and deployment where just copy pasted the same exact thing. 881 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,880 So I was like, oh, there's a whole rule fucking missing that 882 00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,440 you need to play the game. So no, that's great that you're 883 00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,880 able to do that. And you also then also for 884 00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:48,560 freaks like me who love this shit, where I can get the later 885 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,000 version and be like, oh, I have this version. 886 00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:54,040 It's funny because you sent some for Hunter and his version was 887 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,200 different than my version. And I literally messaged you and 888 00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,080 was like, these are both different. 889 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,640 And now I don't want to give Hunter one because I want to 890 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:02,880 keep both of them. I can send you another one, 891 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:03,800 don't worry. No. 892 00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,280 You're fine, but you did. Like, doodle in all of them too. 893 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,200 It's a little blown out. You have pencil drawing. 894 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:11,200 Yeah. Yeah, just. 895 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:12,600 About all the play tests ended up with a. 896 00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:16,000 Doodle sometimes I had to print ship too many and they didn't. 897 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:20,480 But yeah, I like the iteration has been a lot. 898 00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:24,880 I mean I even have like this has been really fun for me. 899 00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:29,480 Like the iteration books are like really cool for me to like 900 00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:34,240 go through and slowly get to the addition and it just, it 901 00:47:34,240 --> 00:47:38,360 scratches some itch on my brain stem that's like, oh, it's 902 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:43,320 getting better now that's. What you just showed was like so 903 00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,520 fucking cool, just being like, look, it's just a black and 904 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:46,640 white. Oh, now it's a drawing. 905 00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:48,200 Now it's this. Now It's not like you can like 906 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,560 time scales to me. Oh dude, that's so sick. 907 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:53,400 It's. Like that's so sick. 908 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,160 Illustration and. Like the? 909 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:59,480 Beginning of their sketch that they gave me and then, you know, 910 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,720 some of the uncolored art and things like that. 911 00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:08,200 So yeah, I did that for, I think some of these back here are the 912 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,040 dead Hulk versions that I did a similar thing for and it was 913 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:16,320 really helpful for me to oh, look, yeah, here we go. 914 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:21,960 You can like barely see it. Like like my initial just like 915 00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:23,440 pencil. Drawing I. 916 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:25,840 Think yeah. So this one. 917 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,480 Has like me. Trying to lay it out, Oh my God, 918 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:33,680 it's following my face and like all the different things that 919 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:39,040 ended up in the game, but we're a fun way to like get me to lay 920 00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:43,200 it out without just being digitally and it really helped. 921 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,320 My process. And that's why I think like if 922 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:51,440 anyone is trying to make a game like building a print studio at 923 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,120 home is so easy if you do it really lightweight. 924 00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:59,880 I mean, I, I literally went to my first stuff was I went to 925 00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:03,360 Goodwill and bought 2 printers for like $7.00 each. 926 00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,840 They barely work. One of them doesn't print black, 927 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,760 but that's the cover one. It doesn't print like text 928 00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:10,560 black, but it'll print photo black. 929 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,680 And so I like limped these things along and I think it was 930 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:18,520 probably between ink and like the printers is probably like 931 00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:22,280 100 bucks and that's 90% ink for like all of the copies I've 932 00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:23,800 printed. So like you could and then 933 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:27,720 staplers like you could staple them with a normal stapler. 934 00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:34,000 But like I have this fun little booklet stapler which is so 935 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:35,840 good. And it was. 20 bucks on eBay. 936 00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,760 So like if you want to get into a game, like even if you don't 937 00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:41,680 do the Kickstarter thing, because a lot of people feel 938 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,880 like they have to do that for like, you know, I need $800 at 939 00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,920 least to like send this to print and make it worthwhile because 940 00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:55,560 you know, it'll be $500 to print 10 copies, you know, or, or $800 941 00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:59,560 to print 200 copies. And so like, if you want to just 942 00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:03,880 get something made, you could totally get it. 943 00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,880 I mean, this one happy new year in 1999. 944 00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,560 This original 1 is stitched instead of stapled because I 945 00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,560 didn't have the stapler then. So like, and this is all the 946 00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,520 edits for the original game. So you could totally get away 947 00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:20,600 with it just at home and, and make some fun things. 948 00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:26,240 And here's the thing that I. Would of 100 times out of 100 949 00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:30,240 would rather have something that someone like printed at home or 950 00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:33,120 like a $7.00 printer that they like ran into Staples for and 951 00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,720 then have some like super polished fucking thing, you know 952 00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:39,400 what I mean? Like, yeah, it's that's that's 953 00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,560 this is the indie shit, right? This is the indie shit. 954 00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:49,320 Happy 90. 9 And I like I have, I have some zenes that are not RPG 955 00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:54,640 zenes that are my favorite zenes ever that are just like, oh, 956 00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:59,320 like this one, this is a girl that I know that it's just like, 957 00:50:59,920 --> 00:51:03,640 I mean, this is straight at like Xerox or something. 958 00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:07,240 And it is like just normal paper and absolutely gorgeous. 959 00:51:07,240 --> 00:51:09,880 And so much stuff is in it that like it's one of my favorite 960 00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:13,720 scenes on my shelf. And it's so I don't want to say 961 00:51:13,720 --> 00:51:16,560 like it's, it's under produced to a point where they just like 962 00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:18,680 they wanted to get it done and they want to make something 963 00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:20,600 cool. And that is the cool. 964 00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:23,280 Like you get some really weird, especially in role-playing 965 00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:25,960 games, you get some really weird stuff that's out-of-the-box that 966 00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:28,520 way. That's and that's what I mean. 967 00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,040 Listen I bitch about this on so many fucking episodes so I'm not 968 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:33,360 going to deep in at this time but that's what I missed. 969 00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:37,880 The scene. The primary TRPG scene has 970 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:45,720 shifted the focus from that cool DIY like get to, to just like to 971 00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:48,000 just over produced over or whatever. 972 00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:50,920 Like you're like the number of people that are like, oh, I have 973 00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:54,640 to complete with D&D and it's just like, bro, D&D is like a $5 974 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:56,840 billion. You are not a competition. 975 00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:59,840 You're you don't exist. You are a, you are a spec. 976 00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:03,960 You're not like you're 10 levels away from them. 977 00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:08,080 Like you're, you're shut up. Just make a cool thing. 978 00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:12,400 Just make something fun. Yeah, it's, that's literally it. 979 00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:13,960 And again. Like the number of games that 980 00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,680 have come out there, like I made this because I wanted to play it 981 00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:20,000 and then other people love it so that they make it like is is 982 00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:21,960 again, like, I don't know, that's peaked me. 983 00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:23,520 That's that those are the games that I like. 984 00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,680 And I feel like, again, it's super easy to tell the games 985 00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,040 that people made because they were enjoying making it and the 986 00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:32,280 people that made stuff because they needed to sell something 987 00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:37,640 and, you know, and. The other side, obviously, is 988 00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,080 the world. Is on fire and we're all broke 989 00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,720 as fuck and like people like need money, so I get it, I get 990 00:52:43,720 --> 00:52:48,880 it right, but then like, you know, it's I don't know like the 991 00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:52,640 the the grind set has ruined everything where it's just like 992 00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:54,840 everyone has to feel like that. You either have to monetize your 993 00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:58,560 hobbies or if you start to like do something you like, you have 994 00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:02,640 to like Max it to like you're allowed to just be shitty at 995 00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:04,520 something, but do it because you're like doing it like you 996 00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,440 really are. I so this is and. 997 00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:12,120 I will stand behind that and also say that like it is the 998 00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:15,360 thing that stresses me out like every day and why I like didn't 999 00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:21,160 in indulge in games for like a couple of years is because it is 1000 00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:24,800 a constant thing of like like I'll make something and put it 1001 00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,800 out there. I'm like, OK, you know, if no 1002 00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:32,520 one reads this, was it worth it kind of thing because but that 1003 00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:34,320 is just I mean, that's how humans work, right? 1004 00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:37,560 And so constantly, you know, like, like this Grumhall 1005 00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:41,720 Kickstarter was much smaller than my other Kickstarters that 1006 00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:44,200 that has a lot to do with Kickstarter as a whole. 1007 00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:45,160 And like a bunch of these things. 1008 00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:47,720 But you're just like, OK, do people not care? 1009 00:53:47,720 --> 00:53:50,360 Do should they care? Should I have like made ads? 1010 00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,040 And like, this is a thing that I've never, I've never run ads 1011 00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:55,440 for anything. Like I'm never run an ad. 1012 00:53:55,880 --> 00:54:00,800 And so I'm constantly like, oh, I'm not like, I'm not, you know, 1013 00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:03,720 I'm not, you know, grinding hard enough kind of. 1014 00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:06,520 I'm not pushing this as far as I. 1015 00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,440 Should be right? Because like, because I want to 1016 00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:12,400 get it to more people and so I should have run and it, it's 1017 00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,600 very hard to be at the end of the day be like, I actually 1018 00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:16,320 don't care. I kind of really like that. 1019 00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,120 Like I have like a bunch of people in discord that are like, 1020 00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,280 hey, this is how my game went. And like, that's ultimately why 1021 00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:26,920 I made the PDF free because I was like, what things earlier 1022 00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:28,880 this year I was like, what things stressed me out about 1023 00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:32,600 making games and what things? And one of those is like 1024 00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:36,520 promotion and things like that. And like what, what do I enjoy 1025 00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,280 about it? Like what as as a game creator, 1026 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:40,640 like what are the things that I enjoy? 1027 00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:44,840 And it's like 100% is like, like people coming up to me to be 1028 00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:49,480 like, Oh my God, like I did this insane thing in a game, in like 1029 00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:53,000 a game of dead hall. And, and it like was a someone 1030 00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:56,000 recently told me they're like, this was a total breath of fresh 1031 00:54:56,000 --> 00:55:00,120 air for me because I was talking to some people that were like 1032 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:04,080 really stressed about running games recently and like they 1033 00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:08,840 haven't like played much and, and they were like, but this one 1034 00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:12,680 I like got into a game of it and then I ran it and like it, it 1035 00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:16,640 kind of got me back in because I I felt much a lower stress level 1036 00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:19,320 of like, I don't have to have this giant campaign. 1037 00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:20,160 I don't have to have those things. 1038 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,200 And like that I was like, you know what, I'll keep making 1039 00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:23,920 games. That was fun. 1040 00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:26,680 Yes, please do. But like. 1041 00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:31,280 Beat like that's the whole thing is just like, I don't know, it's 1042 00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:33,960 just the insane expectations that everyone puts on themselves 1043 00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:36,280 all the time that like social media puts on you, that 1044 00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:39,600 everything puts on you. It's just I mean, I've I've 1045 00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,120 always said forever PDFs of your game should be free because 1046 00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:44,840 that's how you get people to play your fucking game and 1047 00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:46,840 support your game. And if they love the game, 1048 00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:49,200 they'll probably buy the book when you print it. 1049 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:52,000 So like you're not going to direction your money. 1050 00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:54,840 Yeah, yeah. I mean somebody like. 1051 00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:58,120 Go for it. No, I mean I was just so many 1052 00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:01,160 get like. Mouse red is free, mothership is 1053 00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:05,160 free, Merck board is free, fucking Karen is free like and 1054 00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:10,160 those communities have huge huge followings yeah it like cloud 1055 00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:12,000 Empress is. Free, I just recently got that 1056 00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:15,640 one, which is fantastic. I that was another thing with 1057 00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:17,480 like expectations and stuff like that. 1058 00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:22,880 Even like I, I launched all these on my website. 1059 00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:24,880 It's just things, it just kind of like threw them out there and 1060 00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:26,960 a bunch of people backed or a bunch of people bought them. 1061 00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:31,160 I had like the blip and I, you know, I definitely felt like, 1062 00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:32,960 you know, I have to make a Kickstarter, right? 1063 00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:36,200 Because people could, you know, you know, I want to get it and I 1064 00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:40,520 don't know if I'll do it again. And I said I literally swore off 1065 00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:46,400 Kickstarter in 2021 after a happy new year 1999. 1066 00:56:46,720 --> 00:56:49,920 I was like, it just it puts so much in that campaign did 1067 00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:57,280 fantastic, but it puts so much stress on me one because I I put 1068 00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:00,840 that campaign together pretty fast and for dead hold, I had 1069 00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:04,560 written most of the rules for happy New year. 1070 00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:09,480 I had like written like notes about what I wanted and then ran 1071 00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:10,440 a. Campaign and then. 1072 00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:13,800 Afterwards was like, I have to make this entire thing and it 1073 00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:16,840 was so stressful. And I, I, I think I was a little 1074 00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:20,440 over the deadline, but I in terms of Kickstarter, it went 1075 00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:23,160 very well, which was great. But after that I was like, I 1076 00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:25,400 don't want to do this anymore. I just want to like make stuff. 1077 00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:31,280 So like get Gordfest is absolutely that every year I 1078 00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:34,280 really like Halloween adventures and like Halloween stuff. 1079 00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:38,080 And so every year for Dead Hall, since the launch we have made, 1080 00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:41,080 yeah, we have made something for Halloween. 1081 00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:43,000 It could. It's characters that you can get 1082 00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:46,280 vampirism at one point and like adventures and things like that. 1083 00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:50,480 And that was like my favorite version of like, working on 1084 00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:52,520 games was like, I already have the stuff. 1085 00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:54,320 I just want to like, make stuff that people can. 1086 00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:56,320 And a bunch of people have played it. 1087 00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:58,720 A lot of people have no idea that it even exists. 1088 00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:00,560 And it's because I was just putting it out for free. 1089 00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:02,840 And then this year I was like, I can collect it all printed in a 1090 00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:04,720 book. And like, that felt really good. 1091 00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:06,440 Like that was one of my favorite books ever made. 1092 00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:10,200 And they're like really like the theme is perfect, I think in 1093 00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:11,560 them and like exactly what I wanted. 1094 00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:13,680 And it's because I wasn't really rushing for anything. 1095 00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:17,000 You know, I was like, I mean, I'm it took me essentially five 1096 00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:20,080 years to make the book and it's what, 30 pages or something 1097 00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:24,440 because I just was, you know, every time I had inspiration to 1098 00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:25,920 make something Halloween, I made it. 1099 00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:30,080 And that that I think built up to something better than me 1100 00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:33,000 going. I need to make content and like 1101 00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:37,160 shove it all together. And I think that's what a lot of 1102 00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:40,400 Kickstarters can. Feel like now? 1103 00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:44,440 Is, you know, people that feel like, especially Zine quest 1104 00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:47,480 feeling like they have to be in every Zine quest and until they 1105 00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:52,120 burn out, you know, and throw something together and not that 1106 00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:54,800 any of those are like bad in any way. 1107 00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:57,240 People did a lot of freaking work for those. 1108 00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:01,040 But I think of course, that's why they burn out. 1109 00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:03,120 It's because they're trying to shove together something in 1110 00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:04,440 three months or something like that. 1111 00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:08,520 So and Kickstarter has changed wildly. 1112 00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:12,960 I mean, obviously I don't want to get into the whole everything 1113 00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:17,160 has changed wildly, but like, I think I was talking to you about 1114 00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:20,360 it recently. I just like we definitely were 1115 00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:24,240 talking on our Discord about how crazy. 1116 00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:31,440 Oh, they're, they're commenting on my webcam tracking about how 1117 00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:38,400 crazy everything like was in 2019 that was in quest one, 1118 00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:41,080 right, 20, 2018-2019, something like that. 1119 00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:44,240 And and like the Kickstarter was booming. 1120 00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:46,160 And then it like kind of like rounded off. 1121 00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:51,360 And it feels like a lot of a lot of the communities have gone to 1122 00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:54,400 like kind of like bastions of different games. 1123 00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:56,600 You know, that might be like like, I mean, think of the 1124 00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:59,840 mothership, like the mothership mothership. 1125 01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:03,560 It's just like like they have their own thing now. 1126 01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:08,680 And so it's this weird like like I felt like I had to do Zine 1127 01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:10,920 quest so that it would promote me and all the stuff. 1128 01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:13,240 And then I did it and I was like, I don't know, everyone 1129 01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:16,720 that showed up was people that I brought, you know what I mean? 1130 01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:19,360 It's like it. I think it has changed a lot 1131 01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:23,320 from like a platform that people just flock to to find new stuff 1132 01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:26,440 to like kind of just a pre-order service. 1133 01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:31,080 Which it was fine if it was a pre-order service that brought 1134 01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:38,000 you people with an algorithm. Not that I enjoy algorithms, but 1135 01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:41,400 yeah, this time it felt entirely different. 1136 01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:45,720 And I actually felt like kind of bad about some of mine this time 1137 01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:50,040 because I was like, man, I just like I have such a bigger 1138 01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:51,720 following than I than I the first one. 1139 01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:54,960 It was just throw it on Kickstarter, like no, I'd never 1140 01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:56,880 made a game. I had never talked to anyone 1141 01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:58,360 about this stuff. It was just like straight to 1142 01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:01,480 Kickstarter and people just showed up, right, like, because 1143 01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:05,240 that's how it was. And then recently, like when I 1144 01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:08,560 did, I was like, you know, no one's showing up other than like 1145 01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,000 people that I've told, which I love having that community, 1146 01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:12,840 everything. And I felt kind of bad about it 1147 01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:21,960 and I just saw Wat Wat I went to go back their campaign because I 1148 01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:25,040 had saved it and everything and they cancelled it and I was 1149 01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:28,400 like, wait, wait, wait, why? Because I was like, I was like, 1150 01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:31,200 Oh, I got to go do that today. Like I I almost forgot that it 1151 01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:34,440 before it ended. And their comments on all of it 1152 01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:38,160 was essentially like like we were expecting people to show 1153 01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:40,720 and it just like absolutely flat line for them. 1154 01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:44,000 So regardless of all the other stuff going on, it just, I think 1155 01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:47,240 it is a totally different place from once it used to be. 1156 01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:51,480 And it's kind of pushed me more to like, I really want to just, 1157 01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,360 I, I've been thinking about like starting A blog and some other 1158 01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:58,600 like places like on my website where I can put my stuff and 1159 01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:00,680 feel good about it and be like, look at this, look at all this 1160 01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:02,240 like stuff that you can scroll through. 1161 01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:05,440 Because when I'm splitting it between, you know, Kickstarter 1162 01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:08,440 and all these other like places that kind of get lost even just 1163 01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:12,080 for me, you know, and I love to go through like my website is 1164 01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:15,920 chaotic and weird, but I love going on there and scrolling 1165 01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:17,800 through it and just seeing my stuff. 1166 01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:22,040 And so I want to, I want to kind of pivot more towards like 1167 01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:27,440 making a big like collection of everything in one place as 1168 01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:29,800 opposed to, you know, splitting it between these, all these 1169 01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:34,640 different things. So I don't know what your your 1170 01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:36,960 website is crazy and I. Love it I the front. 1171 01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:40,960 Page is a little different now, but it feels like fucking like 1172 01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:44,120 what what what did we used to have like back when like Zanga 1173 01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:47,480 and stuff was a thing? Like it feels like a, you know, 1174 01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:50,680 like clicking on like the the download stuff. 1175 01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,960 First of all, I think we said it in the episode like fucking two 1176 01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:55,480 years ago. The amount of stuff you have on 1177 01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,400 there to play the game too for free with like the ID cards on 1178 01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:02,000 the generation stuff is crazy. Go to soft-ware.net, a lot of 1179 01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:04,040 cool stuff and we try the website and stuff like that 1180 01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:06,160 dude. And the design is fantastic. 1181 01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:07,240 Because it fits everything that you're. 1182 01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:12,200 Doing it's this very like eclectic like like older feeling 1183 01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:16,320 as in like when when social media didn't have algorithms and 1184 01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:18,600 we all just had our own little, like pages and shit. 1185 01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:21,280 Yeah, yeah. Early 2000s yeah, 2000. 1186 01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:23,480 Yeah. You know, the Y2K core is what 1187 01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:25,560 what the kids. It's back in vogue, right. 1188 01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:29,760 They're trying to bring back. I'm OK the worst part bring it 1189 01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:30,360 back. Whatever. 1190 01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:33,360 Yeah, it's whatever. Like I just don't want to see 1191 01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:35,720 any like low. Rise bell bottom stuff. 1192 01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:40,000 I'm like we never looked good in those, but anyway, but it's 1193 01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:41,120 great. The grub sites great, but 1194 01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:44,640 everything you said is like is I think what a lot of people in 1195 01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:46,000 the scene are are wrestling with. 1196 01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:48,280 And you know, one of the things that you know, I, I talked to 1197 01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:51,240 you before about just for a while feeling really burnt out 1198 01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:57,640 on on teach RPGs because of the this, everything is a product 1199 01:03:57,640 --> 01:03:59,880 and everything has to be this, this thing. 1200 01:03:59,880 --> 01:04:02,880 And it's just like, it doesn't feel like any of you like doing 1201 01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:05,320 this. Like it doesn't feel like you 1202 01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:07,960 know it. It just all it is is stress 1203 01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:10,440 after stress after stress and making a thing and being 1204 01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:12,880 stressed because you have to make another thing and it comes 1205 01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:15,600 through. And if the expectations could 1206 01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:17,960 just change where it's just like, OK, like if no one reads 1207 01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:21,200 it, but you enjoyed making it and then you can put on your 1208 01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:24,520 website and see it and you can enjoyment from seeing it, then 1209 01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:27,320 who gives a shit? Like, you know, as humans, I'm 1210 01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:29,320 sure it's always, well, I want a million people to see it. 1211 01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:34,120 I you know, you make a thing. If you enjoyed making it while 1212 01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:37,440 you made it, you got what you got out of it. 1213 01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:42,200 Everything else is bonus, you know, and it's, I don't know, I 1214 01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:44,240 think a lot of mindsets are going to need to change. 1215 01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:47,000 And I think in this economy, you know, things need to change. 1216 01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:48,880 And you already said Kickstarter's been going down 1217 01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:52,960 since like, yeah, 2021-2022. It, it, it took a big limit. 1218 01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:54,680 Literally. You can like, watch the Ark. 1219 01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:57,320 Yeah. And then for Zine Quest at 1220 01:04:57,320 --> 01:04:59,120 least. For, I mean for. 1221 01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:00,760 Projects across the board, I mean, I bet. 1222 01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:06,280 Too many projects, but but you can tell with that. 1223 01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:09,680 And, and it doesn't help that in this, I mean, we're literally, 1224 01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:12,240 you know, one bomb from, from World War three right now. 1225 01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:14,560 A lot of people's, you know, wallets have been tighter for 1226 01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:17,600 years and, and it's a lot harder. 1227 01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:21,440 So it's probably an easier sell to be like, hey, here's the 1228 01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:24,120 thing for 10 bucks versus like, hey, here's the thing for like 1229 01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:27,040 80 bucks, because I got a box ship from China and I got 1230 01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:28,840 special dice for it. It's like I got my own fucking 1231 01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:31,480 dice. I think that's exactly what Watt 1232 01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:33,960 was talking about. They were like, this is it's 1233 01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:36,520 just not feasible because they're going to ship them from 1234 01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:38,440 China. And I think I was watching your, 1235 01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:43,280 your talk with them and, and talking about like the 1236 01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:46,720 harmonization number, if it counts as a, if it counts as a 1237 01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:50,480 board game versus a like book and like how much more expensive 1238 01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:52,880 it would be if it was a board game. 1239 01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:58,760 And that's ultimately why I, I, you know, I say to myself, like, 1240 01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:00,800 I want to stay in this lane because I can print this at my 1241 01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:04,000 house and ship it to you. A lot of these, I even had 1242 01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:07,800 someone talk about they're in another country and they're like 1243 01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:12,840 the, the import cost for them, like when it arrives, whatever 1244 01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:16,520 it's called for theirs, it was so high. 1245 01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:19,920 And I was like, I can literally put this in a letter envelope 1246 01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:22,880 because it's under 3 oz, put a stamp on it and ship it to you 1247 01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:26,040 and, and it will show up. And they're like, really? 1248 01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:29,720 I was like, yeah, 'cause it's like it is essentially a, a 1249 01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:31,920 booklet of paper and I can do that. 1250 01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:36,400 And so staying with that kind of like, and I mean, that's why 1251 01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:39,120 Zenes were a thing in the 1st place. 1252 01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:43,200 Like that was the whole point. And then because it was stuck 1253 01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:45,800 with it I think. Maybe where are can I I. 1254 01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:49,240 I've talked a lot about this recently with a lot of other 1255 01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:53,360 people is like where I feel like we're at like this. 1256 01:06:53,520 --> 01:06:56,240 This weird place. Where I like everyone's like, 1257 01:06:56,240 --> 01:07:00,240 OK, so where are we going? Because we're at like the end of 1258 01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:04,040 this thing, right? And I don't and we don't. 1259 01:07:04,120 --> 01:07:05,720 But no one. Knows where the next. 1260 01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:09,400 Thing is, and so I've just been, you know, throwing ideas at the 1261 01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:12,400 wall of like, you know what it what is the next fun thing that 1262 01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:16,760 we can all, you know, whether that be like, I don't want it to 1263 01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:20,640 be a platform, but whether it be a platform or, you know, like a 1264 01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:24,120 way of creating things like zenes and things like that. 1265 01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:27,760 Like, yeah, what's the, what's, what's our outlet for, for all 1266 01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:32,120 the, the chaos, I mean magazines. 1267 01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:35,200 Go back to making jeans like it was it's such a weird thing the 1268 01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:39,000 the the the way they teach RPGs became so overproduced like this 1269 01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:42,520 this mix of like board games doing super good on Kickstarter 1270 01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:47,520 mixed with cool mini or not factor yeah and then it's. 1271 01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:49,080 Just like again like the the most. 1272 01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:53,600 Of the people that you are like referencing in. 1273 01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:56,760 What not? You but people in with their 1274 01:07:56,760 --> 01:07:59,280 level of what they're making you're not on that level so 1275 01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:01,720 you're not competition that's not what you should be shooting 1276 01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:04,960 for it's just crazy but like with with Kickstarter like I 1277 01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:07,440 said like you can drop a board game that makes a freaking 1278 01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:10,240 $1,000,000 in in 2 days or whatever you can do this you can 1279 01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:13,880 do that and it's just like that's not that's probably not 1280 01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:17,000 going to be you you know what I mean it's also crazy seeing some 1281 01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:20,800 of them being like oh we. Made $1,000,000 in two days and 1282 01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:25,880 were like not in debt, but like it's not going to work because, 1283 01:08:26,120 --> 01:08:29,960 because it, you know, I think a lot of I work a lot in 1284 01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:31,600 Kickstarter for my job and everything like that. 1285 01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:35,560 And so it's like seeing the back end of it is so crazy because 1286 01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:39,040 and then like seeing Watts thing too was is kind of sad that it's 1287 01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:41,000 like like I was watching Watts campaign. 1288 01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:44,240 I was like they made 30 grand in like a day, like 2 days. 1289 01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:46,920 Like that's crazy. And then to have them be like, 1290 01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:50,359 yeah, it just, it doesn't work because the numbers don't math 1291 01:08:50,359 --> 01:08:51,880 out. And it's like, oh, like you 1292 01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:55,880 don't even think about how, you know, the back end of it is so 1293 01:08:55,880 --> 01:08:57,600 crazy that some of these board games that you're like, Oh my 1294 01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:00,880 gosh, they made $1,000,000. Yeah, but it costs a million and 1295 01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:03,359 a half to print the game for that many people. 1296 01:09:03,359 --> 01:09:07,040 And you're like, well, and sometimes if you do have a, A. 1297 01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:11,520 Project that blows. Up above and beyond, you get to 1298 01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:14,319 a point where like, say, say you print a Zine, right? 1299 01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:17,680 And then you're expecting to sell 500 of them and you sell 1300 01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:23,240 10,000 of them and your costs were only to ship 500 scenes and 1301 01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:25,800 now suddenly you're like, well, how do I even fucking pay them? 1302 01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:29,319 Yeah dude, it's insane yeah. Then you have to start getting. 1303 01:09:29,319 --> 01:09:32,240 Fulfillment partners and things. Like that, which is crazy. 1304 01:09:32,240 --> 01:09:36,000 I mean, even giant ones like Trench Crusade was a project 1305 01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:39,200 that blew the fuck up. And I'll tell you what, like 1306 01:09:39,279 --> 01:09:42,960 they're the I do not envy them the cluster fuck that was trying 1307 01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:46,319 to get all those minis out because mine showed up with half 1308 01:09:46,319 --> 01:09:48,720 of them missing like and I was the last batch. 1309 01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:51,520 It was like a year later. I got him like a month ago, 1310 01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:53,880 which is crazy. And half of them were missing. 1311 01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:56,000 And then I had to e-mail a bunch to get them to send me those. 1312 01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:58,920 But even in those were the print quality on that second batch was 1313 01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:01,160 like, and it's just like, cool, right? 1314 01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:03,840 And now I have this like I have the book, but I they took me a 1315 01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:05,960 year to get the minis and then they weren't there. 1316 01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:08,240 And it's just like now I feel like I don't really give a shit 1317 01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:10,760 about Trent Tuesday right now, because like the experience was 1318 01:10:10,760 --> 01:10:14,280 not great because they were. So it was too much, you know, 1319 01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:16,760 and we've talked to a couple people who've had projects that 1320 01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:18,840 got so big. They're like, fuck, how do I 1321 01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:21,440 even, what do I even, what is distribution? 1322 01:10:21,440 --> 01:10:22,720 Like? How does this even work? 1323 01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:27,320 So it's, you know, it's and it is different. 1324 01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:29,280 I mean, I, I will say real quick, someone to chat just 1325 01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:31,280 recently just mentioned Blade 68. 1326 01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:35,080 The difference between Blade 68 and is that Evil Hat is a a 1327 01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:39,240 company that's a a level above they have. 1328 01:10:39,440 --> 01:10:41,280 People. That we're talking about, yeah, 1329 01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:42,280 they. Are they have? 1330 01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:45,400 International distribution, they they are a a publisher that has 1331 01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:48,400 done a lot of huge things so that yes, it's going to be big 1332 01:10:48,400 --> 01:10:51,880 for them, but they they have they are at the level where they 1333 01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:56,160 can do $1,000,000 Kickstarter and be prepared to like Evil Hat 1334 01:10:56,160 --> 01:10:57,680 is up. It's like Cobalt Press and the 1335 01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:00,840 rest of these guys that have the capabilities that that it won't 1336 01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:04,240 impact them in that way. But but it's crazy. 1337 01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:06,240 So I mean people can suffer from the success. 1338 01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:09,200 People gonna just be like the costs ended up being too much 1339 01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:13,560 because it was too good. Sorry, but growing too fast 1340 01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:15,120 thing. It's, I mean, that's always been 1341 01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:17,040 a. Thing in, you know, any 1342 01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:21,240 industry, but but in this it's because of Kickstarter 1343 01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:25,120 essentially like it's whenever I see, you know, like stuff on 1344 01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:27,800 exalted funeral or stuff things that go like right to there and 1345 01:11:27,800 --> 01:11:30,760 then they sell out like that's not a problem for exalted 1346 01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:31,600 funeral. You know what I mean? 1347 01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:35,040 Like like it won't ruin them that they sold out because they 1348 01:11:35,040 --> 01:11:38,160 didn't oversell and like Kickstarter is like built to 1349 01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:42,600 oversell, which is great. I mean like stretch goals are 1350 01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:46,240 literally overselling what your stock is essentially. 1351 01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:51,960 And so it's this weird like, like it's a, it's a great kick 1352 01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:54,760 start to your business until it ruins you. 1353 01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:57,360 And I mean, that's what Kickstarter is, is like, is 1354 01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:00,000 everyone talking about. And obviously there's a, there's 1355 01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:02,920 tons of bad blood in Kickstarter now at this point because people 1356 01:12:02,920 --> 01:12:05,320 are like, is it even worth it? Because they might never show 1357 01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:07,960 up. And we've shown time and time 1358 01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:09,880 again that these things may never get made. 1359 01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:14,160 And it's like, is that worth it? I've always tried to keep things 1360 01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:16,480 small. Like with my T-shirt campaign, I 1361 01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:20,160 literally did a make 100. I was like, I'm only making a 1362 01:12:20,160 --> 01:12:22,680 hundred of these. I will make more at some point. 1363 01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:27,640 But if for whatever reason you know, I sell and this would 1364 01:12:27,640 --> 01:12:30,720 never happen. But if I sold 5000 T-shirts, 1365 01:12:31,160 --> 01:12:32,760 like I'm not going to be able to do that anymore. 1366 01:12:33,120 --> 01:12:35,920 I can't do I'm literally hand screen printing these. 1367 01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:39,640 I can't do that. And so I think there is a lot of 1368 01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:42,960 things for which is why I super encourage people to like 1369 01:12:43,280 --> 01:12:46,160 literally print their zenes at home and like sell them 1370 01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:48,440 somewhere, sell them on Etsy, sell them on eBay, whatever 1371 01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:53,960 things like that is because you can, you can add the cap and 1372 01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:57,240 people don't, you know, they see the success of Kickstarters and 1373 01:12:57,240 --> 01:13:00,160 they want every, of course everyone wants to be successful 1374 01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:02,040 in some way. They want their game to be big, 1375 01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:07,520 but your game is big and uh oh, like it's, it could ruin your 1376 01:13:07,520 --> 01:13:09,920 life. And so I think it's it's fun to 1377 01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:14,880 have the like the outlet and yes, you it will always. 1378 01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:17,040 Nag you that you? Don't have $1,000,000 1379 01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:19,120 Kickstarter. It's always going to happen. 1380 01:13:19,120 --> 01:13:23,960 It's just how humans are. But but but you can also get to 1381 01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:27,720 make cool stuff and not ruin everything and ruin your love 1382 01:13:27,760 --> 01:13:30,440 for it. So, yeah, I mean the number of 1383 01:13:30,440 --> 01:13:33,800 people that like burnout that. That aren't even in the space 1384 01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:36,120 anymore and and the vast majority of the time it's 1385 01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:37,680 because they did a fucking Kickstarter. 1386 01:13:38,720 --> 01:13:40,200 Just print your shit, tell your shit. 1387 01:13:40,200 --> 01:13:42,320 If you're gonna do a Kickstarter, have it ready to go 1388 01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:45,600 with literally so you could just hit hit like ship on the thing 1389 01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:47,720 and and that's it. I don't know we I don't know 1390 01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:50,320 this devolved into like Kickstarter talk for 30 minutes. 1391 01:13:50,320 --> 01:13:53,760 Great chat. That was absolutely, but it's. 1392 01:13:54,160 --> 01:13:56,480 It's it's just, I don't know, like I said, I think. 1393 01:13:56,840 --> 01:14:02,920 I think there needs to be a big realignment of expectations of a 1394 01:14:02,920 --> 01:14:06,360 joy of, of a lot of things in the teach RPG space. 1395 01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:09,600 Because at this point, to me, I don't know, it's fucking broken. 1396 01:14:09,600 --> 01:14:12,160 And it's one reason that, you know, I've, I've shifted more 1397 01:14:12,160 --> 01:14:15,360 towards Garmin stuff because it feels, you know, I feel like a 1398 01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:19,760 lot of people in in that scene like playing games. 1399 01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:23,600 And I feel like a lot of people in THRPGS don't like them. 1400 01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:25,680 And, and I feel like a lot of them don't even fucking play 1401 01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:26,800 them. They're just like, well, I, I, I 1402 01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:28,480 made this thing and now I must sell. 1403 01:14:28,720 --> 01:14:31,840 Like, you know, and it's cool. You don't like, I don't know, 1404 01:14:32,240 --> 01:14:35,320 make I think a, a big thing like Mordheim. 1405 01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:38,960 There's. Like nothing to buy like the 1406 01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:42,520 miniatures take the game yeah, it's complete and I I, I had. 1407 01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:45,280 Such a good. Time like getting into like 1408 01:14:45,280 --> 01:14:50,000 Mordheim stuff for people who don't know, it's just old, old 1409 01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:57,640 Warhammer type miniatures game from 1999 or something and it 1410 01:14:57,640 --> 01:14:59,920 completely died in the old fantasy or something. 1411 01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:02,920 Yeah, and. And the weird thing with it is 1412 01:15:02,920 --> 01:15:05,960 there's not. Like no one can really sell you 1413 01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:07,440 anything. The most they can sell you is 1414 01:15:07,440 --> 01:15:11,120 like Trench Crusade, which is like it, but but like, if you're 1415 01:15:11,120 --> 01:15:13,960 actually just into Wardheim, like you have to make everything 1416 01:15:14,440 --> 01:15:16,440 you have to, you have to print your Zine. 1417 01:15:16,440 --> 01:15:18,560 Where's my Zine? You have to like, print your 1418 01:15:18,560 --> 01:15:21,280 Zine, copy of it and like hand stitch because there's nothing 1419 01:15:21,280 --> 01:15:24,000 to buy or build your train or paint your minis. 1420 01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:27,960 And I think that was like the RPG thing for a while, right? 1421 01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:30,880 It was the like, oh, you need to make more content then you got 1422 01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:32,400 to make it. Yeah. 1423 01:15:32,400 --> 01:15:34,640 And that's, well, I mean, it's, it's also like. 1424 01:15:36,120 --> 01:15:37,840 Here's the problem when you get everything. 1425 01:15:37,840 --> 01:15:40,400 You need in a box. Right, you don't need to do 1426 01:15:40,400 --> 01:15:42,960 anything for it. You have it right, like we 1427 01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:47,120 talked about it like if you just give me a Zine, right and I need 1428 01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:49,560 to go print in a character sheet and then I need to go to the 1429 01:15:49,560 --> 01:15:54,120 store and buy dice like I every time I need to put effort, it's 1430 01:15:54,120 --> 01:15:56,840 the that is the fun that. Is the hobby part. 1431 01:15:56,840 --> 01:15:59,560 Of the thing it's it, and it also it. 1432 01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:03,920 It makes you feel invested in what you're doing, right? 1433 01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:08,160 If you make everything so easy, people don't give a fuck, you 1434 01:16:08,160 --> 01:16:10,440 know what I mean? Like, you make it so easy, they 1435 01:16:10,440 --> 01:16:12,800 don't have to care. But like, if you're like, you 1436 01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:17,000 need this dice, go to your FLGS and like, go buy that dice. 1437 01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:20,760 If I am going to go buy dice for this game, I'm playing this 1438 01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:22,400 goddamn game, You know what I mean? 1439 01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:24,520 Like, there's just everything harder. 1440 01:16:24,800 --> 01:16:27,080 Yeah, there's. Make everything harder. 1441 01:16:27,080 --> 01:16:29,160 Make everything. Harder because then people, 1442 01:16:29,160 --> 01:16:32,680 actually they people will invest. 1443 01:16:32,680 --> 01:16:35,160 More and that's the problem. Is that like when everything is 1444 01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:37,560 surface level and everything is a product and it all looks the 1445 01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:39,760 same and it's all completely polished and there's no work to 1446 01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:42,840 do and there's nothing like people don't give a shit. 1447 01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:48,280 Like it's straight up, you know, and you know, it's just, I don't 1448 01:16:48,280 --> 01:16:52,280 know, it's right. Like, and like you said, you 1449 01:16:52,280 --> 01:16:55,960 know, having to like get your own minis and, and kick back 1450 01:16:55,960 --> 01:16:57,480 your own thing and build your own terrain. 1451 01:16:57,680 --> 01:16:59,560 You're playing with that shit, you know. 1452 01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:02,400 So it's just, I don't know, again, I would rather have a 1453 01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:08,120 Zine than, you know, some super polished hardcover with a dice, 1454 01:17:08,120 --> 01:17:10,320 with all the special stuff, with a character sheet pad with all 1455 01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:12,760 the other stuff in it. And it sounds almost counter 1456 01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:14,560 intuitive where it's just like, well, if you need all these 1457 01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:19,240 things, let me give them to you. And it's just like, no, it's on 1458 01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:21,240 a floppy disk. It's on a floppy. 1459 01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:23,560 Disk let me print it out at work like. 1460 01:17:23,920 --> 01:17:26,080 I don't know, make me work for it a little bit. 1461 01:17:26,080 --> 01:17:29,160 I had fun making the Mordheim like I had to. 1462 01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:32,560 Do a whole bunch too because on Broheim there's a whole bunch of 1463 01:17:32,560 --> 01:17:35,200 the PDFs, but like they're not the right size and stuff. 1464 01:17:35,200 --> 01:17:37,120 So I had to like cut this down and like stitch it. 1465 01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:40,760 And ultimately that's why I wanted the PDFs of dead halt to 1466 01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:44,840 be free because I was like, you can print these out. 1467 01:17:44,840 --> 01:17:49,880 And I, I really want to make a video on just like different 1468 01:17:49,880 --> 01:17:55,280 ways to physically make a Zine. Like like how to, you know, it 1469 01:17:55,280 --> 01:17:58,080 took me a long time to figure out how to make a booklet, you 1470 01:17:58,080 --> 01:17:59,560 know, just like how to lay it out. 1471 01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:01,960 So it's a booklet so I can print a booklet, you know, so it's not 1472 01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:05,920 just like a stack of paper and like how to fold it and cut it 1473 01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:09,360 right and do these things. And like the ways I started to 1474 01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:12,920 do those things were like a ruler in an exacto knife. 1475 01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:17,840 And I think I think having there's a bunch of resources, I 1476 01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:21,640 think even like through at Altons door has like a like a 1477 01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:24,760 setup on how he did like his initial scenes and things like 1478 01:18:24,760 --> 01:18:26,560 that. And I think having some videos 1479 01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:29,320 or stuff on that, especially just like specifically the RPG 1480 01:18:29,320 --> 01:18:33,920 space, I think would be cool to like physically show like all 1481 01:18:33,920 --> 01:18:36,480 different ways. Like, you know, the staplers you 1482 01:18:36,480 --> 01:18:39,120 could use the you know, how can you, OK, you don't have any of 1483 01:18:39,120 --> 01:18:40,920 this stuff. Here's how to make it with like 1484 01:18:41,080 --> 01:18:43,480 nothing like go to the library, do this thing. 1485 01:18:43,480 --> 01:18:46,520 You don't have AI think everyone can get to a stapler at some 1486 01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:49,480 point. But like you can sew them like 1487 01:18:49,480 --> 01:18:52,800 you can even there's ways to fold them so that they just work 1488 01:18:52,800 --> 01:18:55,640 as a folded book. And I think that stuff would 1489 01:18:55,760 --> 01:18:58,240 kind of pocket mods where you can just like cut those two 1490 01:18:58,240 --> 01:19:00,200 little things and you. Get like a 60 piece little 1491 01:19:00,200 --> 01:19:03,440 thing. Yeah, I think there's a there's 1492 01:19:03,440 --> 01:19:06,920 a print shop. In my town that is not, it has 1493 01:19:06,920 --> 01:19:10,760 nothing to do with Zen's or it has nothing to do with RPGs, but 1494 01:19:10,760 --> 01:19:13,160 there's a bunch of people they're making really weird, 1495 01:19:13,160 --> 01:19:16,200 like letter pressed print products and some of them are 1496 01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:18,080 booklets that they like open up and show to me. 1497 01:19:18,080 --> 01:19:21,360 I'm like, what is this? And they're like the one kid was 1498 01:19:21,360 --> 01:19:23,880 talking. He's like, oh, it's like a 36 by 1499 01:19:23,880 --> 01:19:28,400 36 sheet of paper that I caught at these like intervals and he 1500 01:19:28,400 --> 01:19:30,600 like laid out the print and he folds it into a book. 1501 01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:32,640 This there's no binding whatsoever. 1502 01:19:32,640 --> 01:19:36,280 I was like, that's awesome. Like that's the coolest way to 1503 01:19:36,280 --> 01:19:40,720 make any book. And so I, I want to, I've, I've 1504 01:19:40,720 --> 01:19:42,560 talked about this in my Discord 2. 1505 01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:46,720 Is that like, I really want to make a forum, like an old school 1506 01:19:46,720 --> 01:19:52,280 forum because to get all of these things together somewhere 1507 01:19:52,440 --> 01:19:53,960 like, yeah, I could put this on Twitter. 1508 01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:58,640 I'm still, you know, I can put this on blue Sky or like on a 1509 01:19:58,640 --> 01:20:00,600 blog or something. Blog's a little bit better, but 1510 01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:02,920 like. For people to search it and find 1511 01:20:02,920 --> 01:20:04,840 it like if I put this in my discord, no one would really be 1512 01:20:04,840 --> 01:20:07,760 able to find it, right? It's stuck in there. 1513 01:20:07,760 --> 01:20:10,040 And especially if you know, Discord goes away, then it's 1514 01:20:10,040 --> 01:20:12,280 gone. And so I've been wanting to make 1515 01:20:12,280 --> 01:20:15,320 like, you know, a old school forum with like posting things 1516 01:20:15,320 --> 01:20:19,240 so that I can get together RPG stuff like this that's like, oh, 1517 01:20:19,240 --> 01:20:20,840 you want to actually print your own book? 1518 01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:22,880 Here's how you do it. Or here's a bunch of different 1519 01:20:22,880 --> 01:20:25,920 ways because, you know, everyone knows how to like send it to, 1520 01:20:26,200 --> 01:20:28,440 you know, mix them or whatever. Mix them. 1521 01:20:29,120 --> 01:20:31,560 Yeah, but they cost money and I don't you. 1522 01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:32,880 Know sometimes you don't. Want to spend money? 1523 01:20:32,880 --> 01:20:35,560 Sometimes you just want to print your own book for yourself and 1524 01:20:35,560 --> 01:20:37,840 be done. I'm trying to think of who it 1525 01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:39,120 was. I'm I'm. 1526 01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:41,800 I'm blanking on the name. I have a bunch of their stuff 1527 01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:43,720 but Merkborg. There was somebody who made a 1528 01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:46,120 bunch of stuff for Merkborg but then they started going like 1529 01:20:46,320 --> 01:20:48,680 what's the weirdest shit I can do with like print stuff? 1530 01:20:48,920 --> 01:20:51,320 At one point they put it on an adventure on like a fold out 1531 01:20:51,320 --> 01:20:57,040 map, but like the map had just like a hard front and a hard 1532 01:20:57,040 --> 01:21:01,400 back, but like when you opened it up, it was like an accordion. 1533 01:21:02,000 --> 01:21:04,000 It was like this giant thing and then you. 1534 01:21:04,000 --> 01:21:07,360 Just folded it down and they. Figured out how to lay it out so 1535 01:21:07,560 --> 01:21:11,680 this giant map was the freaking adventure, you know, and I've 1536 01:21:11,680 --> 01:21:13,440 seen people print like the newspaper stuff. 1537 01:21:13,440 --> 01:21:15,800 Have you seen that The ones where you can print like your 1538 01:21:15,800 --> 01:21:18,120 your wedding thing, but it's like a newspaper or whatever 1539 01:21:18,120 --> 01:21:20,040 people are like using that to print games and stuff. 1540 01:21:20,600 --> 01:21:23,240 There's a million things that people can do. 1541 01:21:23,240 --> 01:21:25,240 A lot of that is scattered everywhere though, and I think 1542 01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:28,560 it would be really cool to you. Know, like I'll find, yeah, like 1543 01:21:28,560 --> 01:21:30,640 blue sky posts. I'm like, that is incredible, 1544 01:21:30,720 --> 01:21:34,000 like what you just did. But no one's going to, you know, 1545 01:21:34,040 --> 01:21:35,760 the people who are there will find it. 1546 01:21:35,760 --> 01:21:38,680 But then yes, you know, if you're searching like RPG games 1547 01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:40,520 on Google, which people do still. 1548 01:21:40,520 --> 01:21:42,760 I still search things on Google like how do I go to 1549 01:21:42,760 --> 01:21:45,320 soft-ware.net to find the updated forum? 1550 01:21:45,320 --> 01:21:48,120 For all of the cool stuff from now on, I would like to do that. 1551 01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:50,240 I just do and that's where I want to post. 1552 01:21:50,240 --> 01:21:55,040 Stuff so I'm not really great with I did HTML code to the 1553 01:21:55,040 --> 01:22:00,640 website, which is horrific. I cannot I don't have the skills 1554 01:22:00,640 --> 01:22:02,760 to do a forum, but I could probably get closer. 1555 01:22:02,880 --> 01:22:05,920 There's AI was building A blog on there recently and so I, I 1556 01:22:05,920 --> 01:22:09,160 think I'm going to put more stuff into into the website to 1557 01:22:09,200 --> 01:22:12,120 just have resources for people who want to make anything. 1558 01:22:12,120 --> 01:22:15,960 I think it's yes accessibility school and make. 1559 01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:17,840 It Let's get back to making. Indie shit. 1560 01:22:17,920 --> 01:22:20,600 DIY indie shit. That's what we want. 1561 01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:23,560 That's what we all want. We don't want all the public 1562 01:22:23,600 --> 01:22:26,520 bullshit. Listen, we're not like you're 1563 01:22:26,520 --> 01:22:28,720 not selling to 5 E players. You're playing. 1564 01:22:28,720 --> 01:22:31,040 You're selling to people that actually play T tar PGS. 1565 01:22:31,040 --> 01:22:35,240 We want cool DIY indie shit. Just make that shit. 1566 01:22:35,800 --> 01:22:38,080 Yeah. What did someone say? 1567 01:22:38,320 --> 01:22:39,280 A stolen? Sharpie. 1568 01:22:39,280 --> 01:22:40,840 Revolution. Has a lot of good. 1569 01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:44,040 I don't know what that is. Every town has a print shop. 1570 01:22:44,400 --> 01:22:47,000 My, my Afghans. Got printed in freaking Grand 1571 01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:51,280 Rapids, MI and and mailed to me and I was so happy to get them. 1572 01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:54,960 So yeah, my my, the original dead hole covers were printed. 1573 01:22:55,920 --> 01:23:01,520 In in Angelica, NY, which is in the middle of nowhere at a print 1574 01:23:01,520 --> 01:23:03,720 shop that was like an old railroad station and it was 1575 01:23:03,720 --> 01:23:07,400 printed on 100 year old press. Like we printed out the OR we 1576 01:23:07,400 --> 01:23:11,360 like, we made the like block prints and then literally like 1577 01:23:11,360 --> 01:23:14,400 it's, it's ink and on this big weird press. 1578 01:23:14,440 --> 01:23:17,800 And I that's, it was, it was a lot of fun to make and it was 1579 01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:19,280 cool. And it, you know, it makes me 1580 01:23:19,280 --> 01:23:25,920 feel good when you're I think my ultimate like design the the at 1581 01:23:25,920 --> 01:23:28,040 the very beginning. I was like if. 1582 01:23:28,080 --> 01:23:31,880 I can, you know, if you want to talk about like legacy thing, I 1583 01:23:31,880 --> 01:23:35,960 was like, I want some kid randomly like after I'm dead to 1584 01:23:35,960 --> 01:23:39,960 find a a copy of dead haul like in a basement in Seattle or 1585 01:23:39,960 --> 01:23:41,600 something. And like if that happens, 1586 01:23:42,840 --> 01:23:45,840 absolute success because I find books like that all the time 1587 01:23:45,840 --> 01:23:49,000 that are like I found some really weird books that are 1588 01:23:49,000 --> 01:23:53,280 clearly like they're so small print run because they were just 1589 01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:54,640 made because they wanted to make them. 1590 01:23:55,040 --> 01:23:58,120 And and that stuff is when I find those. 1591 01:23:58,120 --> 01:24:02,040 I I feel this weird connection that I've never have gotten with 1592 01:24:02,040 --> 01:24:05,160 like there's some, yeah, I have some weird ones mostly about 1593 01:24:05,160 --> 01:24:08,800 houses and like building cabinetry and stuff like that. 1594 01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:11,440 You're like, this is some dude just wrote this. 1595 01:24:12,400 --> 01:24:14,040 That stuff is peak. And that's what I'm talking 1596 01:24:14,040 --> 01:24:15,200 about. And it's just like. 1597 01:24:15,200 --> 01:24:18,840 I don't know, THRPGS to me are craft and I think people will 1598 01:24:18,840 --> 01:24:23,000 need to get back to to to being makers and being craft. 1599 01:24:23,000 --> 01:24:26,720 People with THRPG is like make it DIY again. 1600 01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:31,760 Don't just go from fucking affinity to mix AM and then to 1601 01:24:31,880 --> 01:24:34,560 to to the distro. You never touch the books. 1602 01:24:34,560 --> 01:24:36,840 You never like. I don't know, get back to being 1603 01:24:36,840 --> 01:24:42,040 makers and DIY Rs and crafters and and and I don't know the IT 1604 01:24:42,040 --> 01:24:44,200 will show. It will show shows, shows in the 1605 01:24:44,200 --> 01:24:47,960 games, But that's us. That's that is our 30. 1606 01:24:47,960 --> 01:24:50,080 Minute. Complaint section about 1607 01:24:50,080 --> 01:24:51,880 Kickstarter and the current space. 1608 01:24:52,240 --> 01:24:55,520 It's a call to action. It's a call to action make. 1609 01:24:56,280 --> 01:25:01,120 Cool shit again, but that is. Listen, this has been Zonware. 1610 01:25:01,120 --> 01:25:03,160 Where Ben, where can people find? 1611 01:25:03,600 --> 01:25:04,960 We've said it a million times, it's on the screen. 1612 01:25:04,960 --> 01:25:06,880 Where can people find you? Where can people find this new 1613 01:25:06,880 --> 01:25:09,640 forum you're going to put again Find all of your stuff website. 1614 01:25:10,760 --> 01:25:12,560 Yeah, Yeah. So my. 1615 01:25:12,560 --> 01:25:14,240 Website zonware.net. Has. 1616 01:25:15,440 --> 01:25:18,920 The very 90s onward.net. I swear it's not a scam, even 1617 01:25:18,920 --> 01:25:21,280 though it looks like it's made 40 years ago. 1618 01:25:21,520 --> 01:25:25,800 But I that has I also have an itch dot IO and and a discord, 1619 01:25:25,800 --> 01:25:27,400 but all that stuff is linked on my website. 1620 01:25:27,400 --> 01:25:30,080 So if you go to the website, hang out there and you know, 1621 01:25:30,200 --> 01:25:31,480 there's physical prints on my games. 1622 01:25:31,480 --> 01:25:34,280 There's also links to all the itch dot IO free PDFs. 1623 01:25:34,280 --> 01:25:36,680 So if you want to play the game, you could just go grab one and 1624 01:25:36,680 --> 01:25:40,120 play it and have fun with it. And then if you want to ask me 1625 01:25:40,120 --> 01:25:43,040 any questions or anything, there's a discord or also my 1626 01:25:43,040 --> 01:25:46,640 emails on there. So yeah, make some cool games. 1627 01:25:47,320 --> 01:25:48,880 Any cool stuff? Play dead hall, jump on the 1628 01:25:48,880 --> 01:25:52,240 discord tell. Tell Ben how cool it is, because 1629 01:25:52,240 --> 01:25:54,360 it is. It is one of the most underrated 1630 01:25:54,360 --> 01:25:56,920 games in TTRPGS. I've been saying it for at least 1631 01:25:56,920 --> 01:26:02,200 two years since episode 78. Go buy the stuff, do those 1632 01:26:02,200 --> 01:26:04,120 things. Ben, It's it's been an absolute 1633 01:26:04,120 --> 01:26:06,080 pleasure. I have a very strong feeling 1634 01:26:06,080 --> 01:26:07,800 this is not the last time you're going to be on the show, and 1635 01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:09,880 it's definitely not the last time we're going to talk. 1636 01:26:09,880 --> 01:26:11,640 Yeah. So thank you so much for coming 1637 01:26:11,640 --> 01:26:13,240 on. It's been, it's been an absolute 1638 01:26:13,240 --> 01:26:14,840 pleasure. Cool. 1639 01:26:14,920 --> 01:26:15,600 Thanks, dude. Cool. 1640 01:26:16,280 --> 01:26:18,600 All right. Well, that has been us, see. 1641 01:26:18,600 --> 01:26:23,000 You next when we see you and all the links to all the places will 1642 01:26:23,000 --> 01:26:25,120 be where you think they are. So we'll see y'all later. 1643 01:26:25,120 --> 01:26:25,520 Bye.