Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll podcast.
My name is Ryan and today I am joined by Ben of Zonware.
I guess that's that's how I say how you doing, Ben?
That's perfect. Pretty good.
How are you? Just Ichi, it's not like we have
been talking for like an hour a while.
I got all this stuff set up, but hey, welcome.
Yeah. We just have like, I feel like
my books just merge into yearbooks and they just like
keep going. Yeah, there's AI was trying to
goggles some of the things in the background there because
they're a little. Blown up oh they're they're
they're blurred here that's fine I.
Believe I'm going to get super distracted.
Boom, unblurred. The problem is it makes me look
blurry then. So it like screws?
Yeah, that's. Good.
It looks good. I just noticed you have a bird
up there too on your wall. Yeah, yeah, he's a big guy.
That's my, my fiance has some, some additions to the house that
are, are are things kind of blend together very well, but
they are very different. And it goes like from like VHS
to a cult like stuff very smoothly.
I I will say. Hey I'm I'm a it looked all it
it it goes. I now see the skull behind your
head and stuff too. Yeah, there's some stuff up
there. There's a little mouse too.
Playing a banjo. Yeah, I used to have I don't
know if if my if my my skull is still up there.
Let me let me let me do a little tilt is my skull.
Oh, I moved it because it's all just cassette tapes now and a
dragon. But it.
Used to be we have the same thing going.
There we go. There used to be a skull right
here and then there's like a taxidermy mouse holding AD 20,
but that also got moved. I have the taxidermy mouse
holding a little banjo. No shot.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's some he.
Lost his hat, but anyway. And all that fits together
games. Weird stuff.
I'm, I think we're good with it. Yeah.
So, so Ben, welcome. Hi.
I have been a fan of yours for a very long time.
And we finally started talking and you're cool.
So who the heck are you? Who who who is Zonware?
What is Zonware? So Zonware originally was the
the corporate name for my mega corporation in my first game
Dead Halt, which was launched on Zinequest one and and I just
ended up going by the name as the company.
Yeah yeah, old cover too, the old letterpress.
You know what's? You know what's the best about
this because I have two versions of these and why I have two
versions? Do you remember what you did to
this version? Nope.
So I got another one after we did the review and then you
doodled and I don't know if you knew it was me or not.
But when I bought another. One, for those in podcast land,
there's a doodle inside. It says not with hyperlinks
because as as we do here on the show, we can play in that there
weren't hyperlinks in Dead Halt. So when I ordered another one
there, I got the like. One of my favorite things in my
collection is is the Now with Hyperlinks doodle inside.
It makes me so excited. Yeah a lot of people have insane
doodles in that. Oh wow you you are another
person with a lot of someone who has run I think the game more
than anyone in my discord or in general.
They definitely have run the most dead halt unless there's
someone out there that's been playing for more than like 3
years. They have a ton of copies of
dead Hulk and at this point, like I like I'm good friends
with them and so I have to write different things than all of
them or else they're just like the same copy.
And they've gotten incredibly absurd and like one of them just
says like F you like stuff. Like they're like, yeah, please
write that in it. I was like, but then people are
going to see it. They're so we go to we're at a
con and and they're running dead Hall and I'm playing in their
game and they they pass out copies and someone opens it.
They're like, oh, it just says like from Zondware.
That's. Like, oh, that's awesome.
So yeah, I tried, I tried to put little doodles in as many as I
can because I have fun with that.
But yeah, so I I made Deadholt on Zinequest one I was, I was
messing around with a bunch of different games.
I was playing Paranoia and my brother and his friends wanted
to play a game. And so I was like, all right,
sure. But we're not playing DND
because like you don't have the attention span for it.
Because he's like, yeah, my friends are going to come over,
we're going to drink a bunch and then we'll play like you'll
teach us how to play role-playing games.
And I was like, no, I can't do that.
But I, I will run something. And so I, I started running.
I've never read the rules for Paranoia, but I started running,
I, I had played in someone else's game that probably also
hadn't read the rules for Paranoia.
And so I started running just like a slapstick version of it.
And then when Zinequest came around, I was like, yeah, I
could like write this down and like, make it something fun,
which is why a lot of it feels dead.
Halt feels inspired by that. And so then I watched for
Zinequest one. It did great.
And then I just kind of got into Zine's and, and enjoying the, I
like how simplistic zines are while still being like, I mean,
they're so small to have like such an insane amount of like
game potential in them. And I really like that it just,
it feels good so. Yeah, no, I mean, I got AI have
a couple of them here. I see that little fan of fan of
scenes here on the show. Just had Xenuary is what what we
called it, 'cause now there's too many fucking denominations.
Mm hmm. You got Zen Topia, you got Zen
quest, you got Zemo or Zen month, you got I'm sure another
one will pop up in like the next time a crowdfunding source gets
it gets big enough. But so Zenuari is just February
from now on for us and that's as as much as we're going to get.
But you've you previously bet because you you just had one in
January. Rum Hall part of that you had
another Kickstarter too. That was after the first one.
Yeah, so I've done 4 kick starters at this point The there
was Zine quest 1. I did dead halt Zine quest do 2.
I did happy new year 1999, which is AI should have my own games.
Usually I do OK good. Yeah, so I did that one, which
is it's just like a Zine full of adventure stuff.
So there's there's four adventures in it.
There's and they're like kind of linked together.
So it's kind of like its own, you know, campaign book and
that's leading up to Y2K in the Millennium bug.
So it's like screwing everything up.
And then there's a bunch of classes and stuff because I was
like the like Star Wars, the Star Wars, I don't know who made
it, Fantasy Flight, the Fantasy Flight Star Wars.
They would do a thing where like to sell more books, they would
put adventures in a book and then also like 2 new classes and
then a bunch of weapons. And like, I know it was a like
sales tactic, but also I loved it because I loved being able to
like collect different sections of the game.
And so that's kind of what Happy New Year was.
I was like, yeah, I'll just put as much stuff.
So it's not like, oh, if you don't want to run the adventure
or you don't want to run it yet, you know, you don't feel ready
for it. There's still other stuff in
there that's cool stuff. Yeah.
So I ran that and then I ran AI was I was screen printing
T-shirts and I made a bunch of dead Halt ones and I was like,
that would be fun. So I released that with a floppy
disk adventure just like in the mid, like randomly for yeah, Oh
my God. So that was Cheggy's, that was
the the Food Barn. And then and then I just did the
next Kickstarter. I keep saying I'm going to swear
off Kickstarter and never do it again.
And then I launch another one. But you know, that's how it is.
I mean, you were on backer K at this time, right?
Kick starter again yeah I keep going back mainly because it's
terrible to learn new things I'm.
I agree, I'm right there with. I was like, it was also like 2
months before that I was like, you know what, I'm going to and
like a bunch of people were like you have the Grum Hall like PDF
like you could you could do it for zinc class.
I was like, yeah, I could do it. And then I, I was like, Oh no, I
have to do this. And so I just, you know, I knew
how Kickstarter worked and I, I just went with that again, so.
It's funny the number of people that do Zine whatever that were
like I wasn't really planning on doing something and then I had
this thing. So I was like, fuck it, like a
week before I decided I was going to do something.
And then, you know, they do a Kickstarter and it happens.
And I, you know, that's I love that about Zenuaries Zine,
Topias, Inquest, whatever it is. Yeah, it's just like you don't.
And what what's funny is that the number of people that have
said, Oh yeah, I just, I threw out Zenquest 1, Zenquest 2.
I just threw this thing together.
There's some of my favorite games on my shelf.
Like it. It's great when because a lot of
times, I mean, yeah, you know what if I get so many games in
this space now are products 1st and then kind of like games
second, or at least that's how the design feels.
But when it's the Zenquest project where they're like,
well, I was working on this thing and I really like it and
it's cool. So let me just sort out those
ideas feel much more like it was just fun thing that I was just
doing. And you can kind of tell like
when when those projects come out, when they you know, they
haven't been, you know, like audience tested.
They're not designed to like to sell or whatever.
They're designed to the something you had fun making
those best make more of those. I I and I was never planning on
doing a like, I, I was running this game for them and I was
like, yeah, I can make like, like I've always, you know,
everyone wants to make their own RP.
Anyone that's in RPGs has at some point been like, I could
write like I could write a book, right?
And so, you know, I thought about that for a, because I've
been in RPGs for a long time and I was like, oh, I could write a
book. And I'm obsessed with like book
binding and all this stuff. So I was like, oh, it all fits
together. I could write a book.
And and you know, it becomes that thing is like, yeah,
someday I'll write a book, someday I'll write a book,
someday I'll write a book. And then when Zine Quest came
out, I was like, OK, I could do that.
And then maybe I'll write a book, you know, expand on it.
But like, this is a achievable thing that is like this bit, you
know, and like, even if let's say I made 200, I think my
funding goal was 500 bucks. But like, let's say, you know, I
made 500 bucks. I could have bought a printer,
printed it at home and not gotten screwed.
You know, it like we always talk about like the Kickstarter thing
that's like, Oh no, I didn't realize that, you know, boxes
are going to cost me 30 grand to print in China and then ship and
now I'm, you know, I can't make this game, yadda, yadda.
And Zine makes it where it's like, oh, if you like, it's
really hard to fail financially. Like, yeah, sure, I spent all
the money I made, but I didn't go into debt like going like,
oh, I I got to print boxes or you know, the the dice cost this
much or something like that. So it was a totally like a, you
know, it's hard for me to fail at this.
I might as well make it. And even if it's a small book,
like people are going to enjoy, it'll be a fun little game and
then you can expand on it easily, which is cool.
So I really enjoyed. And after that, because I was
like, oh, I'll make a book after this, right.
I'll make the big hard I I love like this size of book.
Like this is like my favorite thing ever.
And I think most of my RPGs are those now other than like the
old one that I've had. And so I was like, I want to
make that. And then I was like, OK, I'll
just make little content continuously.
And then kind of eventually I'm just going to have it, you know,
and you know, then I can edit it to a book.
But I just kind of fell in love with the like, you know, it's
also easier to, like, pitch people on it to be like, hey,
the game's $12.00 or like 15 bucks.
You know, you could play it and see if you like it for that, you
know, price. Whereas, you know, like a $70
hardback is both hard for me to make and hard for me to go.
Like, you need this game. Yeah, right.
No, I mean, and that's, I mean, it still goes back to, you know,
making, making a game versus making a product.
You know, I mean, that's why it's hard for me to call the
indie space, the indie space anymore.
I mean, anyone that listens to us regularly knows.
I hardly say it because I call it the small market space now,
because that's what everyone's trying to be.
Everyone wants to create the next product.
Everyone wants like all the bells and whistles and stuff.
And I'm like, give me a 35 page scene that you like staple
together at home and I'll be so happy.
Like, you know, because I don't know, again, it's it's it's
design intent, you know, and it comes down to like, if you
design A game that you really like that you're excited to play
and then you're like, well, I guess I might as well print it.
That's peak. But if you're like, I must
design A game for this system because this system is selling
right now. It's like, come on.
Like it's hard both ways because you're like I and I've, I've
absolutely fallen into that. It was like, OK, I need to make
a mothership, you know, expansion, right?
Everyone gets the because you're making stuff and you like, at
the end of the day, of course, you want your own game to be
popular. Like that's the the thing,
right? And so it's so hard to, and I
think I've I've, you know, kept away from it enough, whereas
like, yeah, or I could just like keep making this stuff in this
weird little bubble I have. And like, I think what keeps me
going is like, people just show up.
They're like, hey, I found this like a dude text me.
He's like, message me. He's like, I found this in
Berlin at like a game store. And I just wanted to like, say I
really like, I was like, OK, that's the weirdest thing ever.
And because like I'm not, you know, obviously things go
through like sell or sales things because I have them on
IPR, but it's like I didn't to Berlin.
It was probably like all the places in the world or something
like that, like the, the, the shop that's over there.
But but I mean, it's so, it's so funny because the number of
times that we've that I have like because Hunter wasn't on
this episode. I can't remember who reviewed it
with me, but Hunter wasn't on because every time I bring it
up, I was like, Oh yeah, you, you weren't on the episode.
The number of times that I've talked about this fucking game
and been like play this game. This game is so good.
It's legitimately one of the most underrated games in teach
RPG is like more people need to find and buy and play this game
like it's it is good. It looks good.
It like it plays well. Like it's, it's crazy to me that
people, I don't know the the entire concept of like indie
and, and all of it where it's just like, this is clearly
better than DND. Can we stop?
Like you don't need to spend another $50 on another garbage
adventure. Just spend like 15 bucks and get
this Zine that is literally where you can play anything.
You can just get in the elevator and go anywhere and play
anything. And it's it's good.
It's great for for those. So we're talking about it a
bunch and we've reviewed it on the show.
So go watch the episode. At some point while we're
chatting, I'm sure I'll hop into YouTube and and actually hunt
down what number episode it is. But for those who don't know
Deadholt, like what what is what is this?
What is? What's the pitch?
Yeah, so this is, I was always into cyberpunk games and I
always felt they were like so gritty that I couldn't grasp
onto them. And the first time I played this
weird like telephone game of Paranoia where people, I
literally played in the game where I think the DM had never
run or read the book for Paranoia, someone else had run
it from them. So it's like this horribly like
telephone version of this game. But the thing that I enjoyed so
much about it was that they, I didn't know what I was getting
into. And they were like, let's play a
game. And we just started playing the
game. And so Deadholt was my, my
hopeful access to that. Where is like, we all sit down
and you go, hey, you are in this megalithic hotel.
You go to the bartender and you are here to get a job.
If you leave, the game is over because the game is here, right?
And so it's this megalithic hotel run by a supercomputer who
is kind of vague and in the background.
And the supercomputer was put in place to kind of manage the
hotel. But he has gone so out of
control with like power and just chaos that he keeps expanding
the hotel and making it more and more chaotic to a, to a like map
that you don't understand because he's, you know, he's
doing his own thing. It's that otherworldly being
type thing. And so you are just one of the
maintenance crew trying to keep the hotel from falling apart.
And so the bartender gives you jobs to like go to floor 55 and
like repair the food VAT or something.
That's one of the adventures. There's just a big food VAT and
you got to go to floor 55. And so I really wanted,
especially for people that hadn't played RPGs, I like a lot
of the like rules light games, but they kind of just feel like
stripped down versions of games. I mean, how many like stripped
down versions of like DND are there?
And so I was like, I want you to have like the crazy amount of
flavor from one of these big games.
Like like look at like a Newman era where it's like this whole
other thing. I was like, I want that, but I
want you to be able to play it without even knowing it, what it
is. So I, I said it on this hotel
where there are some very key things.
You always end up in the bar. You always ask for a job and you
always take the elevator to these new floors.
There's a gash upon where all of your items are randomly,
essentially randomly collected by putting gold into the gash
upon machine. And so it's this, everything in
the design is meant to get you playing really fast and like put
you in really, really quickly into an adventure.
And then all of the floors, there's a whole bunch of
adventures built on specific floors, but the main idea was
that the hotel can be anything. So you can have the elevator
open to a floor from a different game.
And the reason that started is because I literally was, I was
doing it for a lot of DND books. But like, if someone was like,
hey, I want to play Dead Hall, I'd be like, OK, like right now.
And I was like, OK, so I would pick up, I'd I'd have like my
dead halt rules and I'd pick up an adventure and literally start
playing from a random page on that.
It'd be like, all right, we're going in that I showed the
haunted element act is like a perfect version of that is
because they're all like one floor, like if there's a lot of
one floor adventures in there. And so I've played so many games
where it's like, all right, the crew has to go do this thing.
You know, if you take Tomb of Horrors an example, it's like,
OK, you have to go get this item.
And then they appear in Tomb of Horrors after the elevator lands
on that floor. And so you end up just getting
this crazy combination of like, we're in an adventure that's
supposed to work this way, but we are breaking the rules.
And I think that's fun. Like you run into Tomb of
Horrors with like an energy pistol and that's hilarious to
me. And it works because like, it
can be so chaotic that if it's a one shot, you know, you can ruin
the adventure in that be OK. And if it isn't, you can go back
to the bar where you always restart.
And it's not like it, you know, it kind of has a W Marches kind
of vibe where you always end up back at the bar.
And so it's a good way to be like, OK, the next adventure can
be somewhere else. We can ruin what the plan was
because it's going to be chaotic and it's probably going to fall
apart, and the fact that we get to go back and get a new job
lets us change that. So that's kind of the whole
whole vibe. Yeah, I mean, that's, and that's
my whole point is like mechanically it's great.
Love it. Also, I I did go on YouTube.
It's episode 78. We are now episode 312, just so
you know how long ago it was. And that was back in the time
when we used to do like 2 plus hour episodes.
So if you want to dig through Dead Hall for 2 1/2 hours, go
watch episode 78. Yeah, we used to literally go go
page by page and like dig apart everything.
I miss those days sometimes. But it's it's so great.
And again, like it it, it looks good.
It plays great. But that's kind of like the, I
don't know if I had to sell somebody on it.
It's literally you can play anything anytime, like whatever,
like anything that you're wanting to play.
If you're like, oh, I've been thinking about Cyberpunk where
I've been thinking about like the old world, like whatever.
Like just do you hit a fucking elevator button?
And like you said, the the kind of anachronism of running into a
fucking dungeon full of goblins with like a slicer pistol or
something like is perfect because you're breaking it in
all like the funniest, best ways.
And the fact that like it doesn't really matter because
again, like just get back on the elevator and leave.
If you break it so bad you can't fix it, I don't know.
It's, it's great. It's great game, play the game.
And there's, and, and there's, we've already talked about,
there's so much stuff for it because you got, you got New
Year's, you got, I mean, if you get a floppy disk, you got, you
got all a floppy disk drive, you get all of this.
Regret the floppy disk, mainly because I locked them onto the
floppy disks and there's some of my favorite adventures and some
people are like, where do I get this?
I'm like, I'll send you the floppy disk.
It's so funny because it's never is.
These are never going to be anywhere but on me is right.
Yeah, there's, I think. Do you have that that that?
One I've all I've all I've all of.
Them OK, there's like 2 there's like two or three that I put on
floppy disk that were also online and have come out so but
cheggies Fortra and Fortra forgotten will always be on the
floppy disks and I have not given them anywhere else and I
don't I said I wouldn't and I haven't yet.
It's been years. So if people have asked me,
they've been like, OK, like, can you send me that adventure?
I'm like, I I will absolutely send you a floppy disk for it
100%. And they're like, no, but I
don't have a floppy disk for it. I'm like, I know it's kind.
Of like plug it in your computer it works I.
Also understand that like that's asking people to buy things and
I'm not always super like, you know, not everyone has a ton of
money. So but I've always been, and I
will say this here, if people watch, it is like you can ask
other people for the adventures and that's part of the community
building thing. And I'm totally OK with that.
What what you do to ask each other?
The obviously I made them very hard to get and that's so that
you either have to, you know, like go to a library, they have
floppy disk like drives it like all of my libraries.
And I think that's a fun little adventure that I've put you on
to try and get them off of the disk.
Or you can ask other people. And that's also I.
Mean, I'll talk about it too. I mean directly over your left
shoulder, you have like a stack of VH s s, right?
Like we've already talked about, I got a stack of cassette tapes.
Like physical media is so important and I love like
there's a bunch of people kind of in this space that are like,
no, there's no PDF. Like buy the book out of made
100. And I'm like, Nope, I have one
or fuck me forever. I guess it's on my list and I
have a list of ones that I will hunt down forever.
I don't need to hunt these down because but there's there's
people in the scene right now like I don't know if you know
Tanner Simpson, who did like wanted reward, but he's got a
gig coming out that's on a zip disk, which is not a floppy disk
and like drives for that are like insane.
So I'm. Like I have a zip disk drive
downstairs I have I don't have any zip disk so I'm going to
have to look that up. I am what's his name the MIRU
guy put I have a MIRU disk for its I can see it, but he did
mini disc and I think there's like it was never an intention
to like not pay wall. What's the you know, like block
thing yeah yeah, I have that over there somewhere which is so
cool. Also don't have a mini.
I have a lot of weird old tech, but there is a lot of it.
I have laser disc. I have all those things, but I
don't have a mini disc player and I'm not buying it.
Well, I probably will buy one just for that at some point.
But the I think the cool thing, it kind of how do I, how do I
put this? It's like a game within a game
to me of this like you have to kind of do some work to find
this. And I've had tons of people be
like, Oh my God, I went like I got the floppy disk.
I've had it either for years or some people like buy it just
straight from me or, you know, I've sent tons of floppy disks
out and they've been like, oh, I, I, you know, had to go to my
local library or like I went in my parents attic and like dug up
their old computer and got the P.
And that's so cool to me. Like I think that's the coolest
thing ever. And it like the fact that I was
able to make it a little adventure and then people that
have read it have been like it, it felt better.
Like if you just sent it to me I would have been like neat that's
cool. But like the fact that it like
they feel special that they have been able to like like unopen.
This treasure chest is fun to me.
That's that is how we all used to feel.
I don't know how old you are. I'm sure I'm older, but that was
what life used to be like. Everything felt special because
everything took a little bit of work.
Now everything is so fucking easy and our attention spans are
this fucking big. Like that's one reason I love
like I become obsessed with cassette tapes because just the
process of like taking it off the shelf, cracking the thing
open, like I have the coolest looking like cassette tape
player ever. That lets you see the tape and
then part like 20 minutes in, you got to flip it to the other
side. Like now I just use this as a
timer. I wake up in the morning, I pick
a tape, I put it in and I drink my coffee and I tell myself, am
I doing a side, B side or both before I get up and work.
And then when it's done and it clicks, it's off and I just take
it out and go start working versus, you know, like Spotify 3
hour playlist where like it'll just drone forever.
Like even even streaming services that I still have
because I've camped a bunch, I turn them all to ad supported
because my ADHD, I've actually been able to watch movies
knowing that like every 30 minutes I get a break, you know,
and it's. Great.
It's so good. It's hell.
And I've got some buddies do the same thing.
They're like, dude, we actually got to sit and like watch a
movie because 20 minutes in, I got to go go to the bathroom and
I got to go get a drink and we could focus in.
And requiring that little bit of work, like you said, makes
everything feel a little bit more special, makes you feel
more connected to it. It's not just this thing and
physically owning it to knowing that like you have it, I don't
know, it's, it's great. I love that you did it.
Don't give it to anybody, make them do the thing.
It's also with like physical books, you know, I, I can do
this thing that we're talking about where I could be like, you
know, and like, whereas I have, you know, PD FS, I've, I've
never, I've learned over because like originally in dead hall, I
was like the PDF. I don't even know if I'm going
to make one. And then I, I did absolutely
realize it was a accessibility thing, just with like some
people are not great at, you know, like textbooks is annoying
and people don't have space. I was living in New York City at
the time and did not have space for books.
So I understood that. And then also people were lived
in places where shipping it was like absurd and they were like,
is there a possibility for PDF? That's why I did the PDF, but I
don't have any. I think I have like a couple PDF
books. Most of them I have printed out
into the well, I have a ton of PDF books, but I basically
they're just in a folder. I don't think I'll ever look at
them because because they're not like a, oh, the you know, the
book or like I'll be drinking my coffee and like look over and be
like, I'll read that one today. I can't do that with PDFs And so
I've always been kind of iffy on it.
The same with music. I I'm a big CD person.
I have, they're probably, you can probably see them like way
in the background there. I have a bunch of CD shelves
because it's the same thing. It's like, I won't ever like go
and just scroll through to like listen to something.
And so I love being like, oh, what do you want to put on and
like go down the list and like grab 1.
And so I the same thing with games.
It's like it makes me play games more having them like as a thing
that it's like, oh, like they kind of nag me, which is good.
I also sold a lot because if I have anything like what's behind
you, I get massive analysis paralysis and so I just won't do
anything. But that's a me problem.
I mean, it keeps going. I got like 10 boxes over there,
like 4 boxes in my closet. I got a bed elevated so it was
high enough that I could fill the bottom with boxes.
I mean, that's basically why we started the show.
Why I started the show was because I too many fucking games
and I, I'm, I need to read them. So when we were doing weekly
reviews that forced me to read a book every week and and pick a
game and then the number of games we played because we
reviewed them, you know, is a big part of it.
I, I, I'm a big PDF guy, You know, part of it is
accessibility thing, but also like at work, I can just pull it
up on my phone on my break or something.
I'm not going to take a toe me to work every time.
I have a kindle with a bunch of stuff on it but that's like the
closest I'll get to is like if because if I go on vacation I'm
not bringing. I'm not bringing 5 books to
read. I do.
We also use. Obviously we use APDF for their
reviews, but also I like, I like pages, PDFs.
Like if you just have spreads, that's fine.
But I, and I like doing reviews with PDFs because I can just
blow it out as big as I want. Look at like 1 paragraph at a
time and let my brain focus. Like if I have a big old book in
front of me like and I'm trying to analyze it, there's too much
going on. Like I need to like zoom in and
like cover the other page or something.
So, so like you said, part of it's an accessibility thing.
It makes it easier for me to, to do analysis and stuff like that
for it. But I mean, also when they're
hyperlinked and, and screen readable and you know, they
have, they have bookmarks and stuff, that's also a huge thing.
I know a lot of like, you know, when I run games anymore, a lot
of times I'll just have an iPad. And it's so much easier to
bounce your PDF on an iPad than to like flip through a giant
tome you have on the table. But.
We, we have in the discord recently I posted the dead Halt
PD or the Grumhall PDF when that was coming out.
And I did have one of my, one of my friends go, hey, does it have
hyperlinks? And they're absolutely
referencing your video because long ago everyone's like, boy.
And I was like, I didn't even think about hyper, you know,
'cause I just don't ever use, you know.
And so I mean, it's like a lot of people have been like, oh,
it's so much better. And so Grom Hall will be getting
hyperlinks when it's actually correct PDF but.
Can I give you the secret like extra step hyperlink that is
like super easy but makes it even better.
Hyperlink all of the page numbers on every page back to
the table of contents. OK, just so you click on the.
Because you can be like, OK, I want to check out weapons.
Let me go to the table of contents, click weapons, boom.
And then once you've read the weapons section, you can just
click on the page number and go back to David content to be
like, now I want to look at this so every page will take you
back. You can go back.
I didn't even. Yeah, see that troika.
Yeah. I I never, yeah, I never really
do anything on the PDF. So yeah.
Troika has a thing where they, I think it's like they, they have
headers on each page and like all of the even number pages, I
think take you back to the day of the contents and all of the
odd number pages take you back to the beginning of the chapter
you're reading. So you can constantly do it.
And if you use like Indesign or anything like that, you can just
make it as like your, your the, the parent page or whatever.
If you just make like whatever you make as your like the page
number thing that all you have to do is hyperlink that one time
and it hyperlinks every. Page.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Super easy.
Well, I'll be talking to you when I, when I, when I get close
for this, then it will. It will, yeah.
Sure, as long as it's hyperlinked otherwise I'm you're
going to have to doodle in another scene and and and send
me another one. So we so we've been talking
about Deadholt so I have the original stuff you there there
is the new version. This is the one that it was on
your shop, but it it, it, it, it was part of the the new
Kickstarter, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I put all the old books on. Yeah, this it's yeah.
It's just got a new cover. It's a pretty new coat, is what
it is, yeah. Which is?
Oh, absolutely. Which is great.
I'm dropping stuff. I have the original cover was
letterpress and I really love it.
It sells horrifically bad because I mean, like, look at
this on a shelf. It's just like a black BLOB.
I love it and I think it feels really like nice if you know
what the book is. It's kind of like I kind of went
like straight to the the, you know, when they do like a.
Yes, the special edition version.
The Special Edition. Covers or it's just like a nice
crisp thing. But what I did realize is that
you kind of have to know what the game is to want the special
edition. So I put a whole bunch of art
because Marlo, my fiance does all a lot of the art for all the
games. I've had tons of guest artists
and like Emerson Brown did a whole bunch of the the monsters
and stuff. But all of the art is really
fancy. People like when I open it up,
it's great. But I didn't even know like this
stuff was in it. So I was like, all right, I have
a bunch of the old books still, which the rules have been edited
like 10 times In the final print of it.
I was like, let's just give it like a cool dust jacket and like
up to date it with kind of like how Grumhall looks so that on
the shelf, you know, they're kind of shinier.
But anyway, yeah, so we did updating with a with a nice
little dust jacket. I'm.
Going to keep it a buck. The first time I saw this I
think I bought it because it looked like this and was like
whatever this is I needed and I got.
You then. And then and then you got me.
So I'm looking at my editions. This is first edition, 5th
printing. That's first edition, 5th
printing. What's what's this one edition
4th printing 02021 That's my oldest one I think is the is is
the 4th the 4th printing crazy. I have like a really poorly I
have like a waterlogged version over here that's probably my
original copy because I actually ran it so much Yeah yeah,
there's I still have wow. I immediate poll was the 300 of
300 original printing that's water damaged.
That's so perfect though. And they have gotten better over
the years. The the most recent dead halt
has. I wouldn't.
I'm not going to say it's it's typo free, but it's much better
than the first edition. Well, even when I go on my
Discord, I I've been it keeps getting because when I go into
my discord, I'm sorry, my Dropbox and I look, I look for
dead hall. I have what do I have?
I have 1.21 point 3 and 1.4 PDFs in here.
So just in just in there. We've got we've got better, but
it's hard, hard to get better though, but so that's dead hall.
We talked about dead hall. This is the new cover.
It's great. I like it.
It's awesome. It's exactly what the people
want. I'm always going to be like,
give me that big old circle guy. You still.
Got the old circle underneath. It, I got it, I got plenty of
them, but what is this? What is Grumhall?
This is the newest game. Yeah, so I was, it's been a long
time since it's been like 6 or 7 years since Dead Hall came out,
which made me incredibly sad to. I mean, I guess that's cool, but
but I went when I looked at that and so I like made a whole bunch
of different stuff for it and just expanded a little bit.
But I've been wanting to make this much bigger game we're
talking about. What's the book that I've always
wanted to make was this game called a Felion Space, which is
basically just the Dead Haul rules on steroids.
If Dead Haul is like the one shot version of the game, this
would be the actual like big game.
And so I was like, I'm going to do that now.
And I like started trying to do it.
And it was such a big jump because I hadn't like written a
game in a while that I was like, I'm like getting overloaded with
what this is. So I started writing the base
rules and then like writing these little modules.
And I was like, I don't know if any of this is going to work,
but it still has the base dead halt rules.
So I was like, what if I made something smaller that can mess
around with all these like module rules that I'm trying to
like screw around with in this big game?
And then I just released it for free and like, and then moved
on. And then I would have a basis to
work off of. And so Grumhall, I was like, OK,
I'm just going to do that to Dead Hall and like make all
these modules and like change the base game.
And I was like, but then I either, you know, make the other
game like an old version of it, where is this new version?
And I would have to delete a bunch of stuff in it that I I
think works. And so I was like, what if I
just made Deadholt again, but basically cut half of the game
off and just made new stuff. And so when I started doing
that, I was like, I'm going to also theme it differently
because a lot of people Deadholt is this kind of weird.
Like when you Deadholt in the game, which is you get 5 mods
and you basically die five times your fifth life, kind of the cat
thing. And then when you get that fifth
mod, you run off into the hotel and you're this like this your
clunk head, which is this like screwed up person.
So there's like this horror element to Dead Halt, but it's
also very like clunky technology cyberpunk.
And so some people play it really goofy, but some people
like I've played in games where it was like kind of like a
horror game. I was like, oh, so you like this
like weird second part of Dead Halt.
And so I was like, what if I just make the horror game?
You know, I cut out a lot of the like the technology is still all
there. I like having the consoles on
different floors. I like having the supercomputer.
But for Grumhall, I was like, I'm going to basically hack dead
halt apart and make it a horror version.
So new hotel, the new hotel is this like very shining up on a
hill, like in the mountains. This like corrupted hotel with a
supercomputer that's screwed up in not like a it's sort of a
glitchy way, but in like a it's. Essentially, and I was like what
what is what is how does this go if if all the computer consoles
and things like this are more towards the like horror end of
things. And so I I revamped some of the
rules. The biggest one is the how you
die. Instead of getting mods, you
basically get dropped into this like if you're beaten beyond
belief, which is you get to your wound threshold, you're dropped
into the primordial soup, which is this big like lake filled.
It was like a once a graveyard and now it's where you get
healed, but you come back with mutations.
And so that's how you come back. You can come back four times,
but on the 5th mutation you meld into the soup.
And so that's your your permit death.
And so I wanted to mess around with these modules that I was
playing the other game one which is a Zon cycler, which is
essentially your weapons will break and you can put them into
the machine to turn the back into gold, basically big recycle
machine. And then there was also like, I
had this idea for downtime, which was like in between games,
your characters will do things that you wrote down and then
when you come back to play again, that thing is done.
So it kind of like encourages you to come back to the game
because if you wanted to like build a weapon or something,
there's a whole bunch of different rules for, you know,
what you can do on your downtime.
It happens in between games. So instead of like you going,
oh, we're all going to hang out around the fire and like work on
our things. You basically say like in
between sessions, I'm going to do this and then when we come
back, it's going to be done. And so these are all things that
like, I didn't know if they would work.
And so I was like, I'm going to cut out in Dead Halt.
There's like you can, you can rebuild the fall bar and like
put new modules into it or every.
So I cut out that stuff and replaced it with this like Zon
cycler and 100 new items and the blights and afflictions, which
are these like different things that you can do to your body.
And so this was me essentially being like all the things I
wanted to mess with Dead Halt on, I'm going to mess with it
with this new game so that I don't break the original game.
And I very well might break this game, but that's OK, right?
And so I released as a fee free PDF.
There's like you can rebuild items with junk.
You can like change how things work in the game.
And I wanted to see if these things worked.
And to do it, I was like, I might as well just hack the
game, make it something that's different than some other people
that really like this horror aspect could play.
And and then when I get to the next game, I have this good
basis of like, did this work or did we play it?
And it was horrible. So that's kind of the the main
thing. It's basically a big play test
for this other game. But then it became a play test
for itself because we were having fun with it.
Yeah. I.
Mean, you know. I love dead hall.
I've said this over and over again, I'll never stop saying
it, but I'm also like an edgelord piece of shit.
So like having like a dark fucked up version really speaks
to me. That's what a lot of people were
talking about and I was like, you know what?
I'll. Go deep into it, which is so
funny because I'm not, I'm not a horror guy.
I love the like fringe of it. Like I love the dark space kind,
like that kind of stuff, but like really gritty horror.
I'm like totally like skeeved out by.
So it's so funny writing this because I have some friends and
I was like, is this good? And they're like, yeah, dark
worse make it worse. Like makes me uncomfortable,
which is fun. It's fun to, you know, try that
out. Yeah.
No, it's, it's. Great.
And I mean, it's a new game. Which means we get to.
Talk about on the show, which means I got to get 100 actually
beyond the episode this time since it's been 2 years since we
talked about before and I can promise you it won't be 2 1/2
hours this time but but my. Brain just completely broke for
a second but. We so we got to do that.
So, so this is how you already put it on Kickstarter.
It funded it exists also like it's already like on your on
your website. Yeah.
So I I released it. I released these versions which
are like play test versions because I was like, OK, I'm
going to make a whole print run and then do the same thing with
dead Halt, which was like I printed 500 copies or whatever
and then found a whole bunch of typos and then printed it.
You know, I just kept doing this thing, which is why I like Zenes
because that's accessible. But this time I was like, you
know what, I'm going to make play test so that people can
play the game. Tell me all these things that
are wrong with it, which people have done.
And I, this time I decided to print everything at home.
Like the entire book is done in my backroom.
I stayed with them. I do all the stuff.
And so everyone's gotten lots of different editions of the game.
Oh yeah. Because I, every time people
tell me something's like wrong with it, the next time someone
orders something and I print, you know, 5 new books or
whatever, I, you know, fix the things that were messed up.
And, you know, it's all, it's a lot of small stuff.
You know, it'll be like a word is misspelled or like it
something's hard to read or something like that.
And so it's been this really fun way for me to like build the the
perfect game by just like every time someone orders something,
they get like a different version and eventually we'll get
to 1 point O and that'll be like the that'll be essentially the
Kickstarter edition, which is now that I've had a play test
also, the PDF was free. I tested that out.
Everything ended up free because I was like, I stress about like
how to get games out and I hate asking people for money because
I'm a terrible salesman. And so I was like, screw it.
This year everything's free so that people can play it because
my favorite part is just people telling me about their games.
So I was like, screw it. But obviously the physicals, I
still have to, you know, print them and stuff so they're super
cheap. And I was like for the
Kickstarter, I'm going to do this the fun, the like the final
edition, I'll get fancy covers printed and like update the art
and stuff like that. But this, this like edit and
reprint and edit and reprint has made that like super accessible
to me because I don't have to stress about like, oh, this is
the big one. We got to make sure everything's
absolutely perfect. No, that's great.
I I mean I printed. A.
So I put out a game and it had an ashcan version that I printed
for packs and immediately upon receiving it found so much wrong
with it. So that's super nice to be able
to do to just be like like at one point I had like initiative
and deployment where just copy pasted the same exact thing.
So I was like, oh, there's a whole rule fucking missing that
you need to play the game. So no, that's great that you're
able to do that. And you also then also for
freaks like me who love this shit, where I can get the later
version and be like, oh, I have this version.
It's funny because you sent some for Hunter and his version was
different than my version. And I literally messaged you and
was like, these are both different.
And now I don't want to give Hunter one because I want to
keep both of them. I can send you another one,
don't worry. No.
You're fine, but you did. Like, doodle in all of them too.
It's a little blown out. You have pencil drawing.
Yeah. Yeah, just.
About all the play tests ended up with a.
Doodle sometimes I had to print ship too many and they didn't.
But yeah, I like the iteration has been a lot.
I mean I even have like this has been really fun for me.
Like the iteration books are like really cool for me to like
go through and slowly get to the addition and it just, it
scratches some itch on my brain stem that's like, oh, it's
getting better now that's. What you just showed was like so
fucking cool, just being like, look, it's just a black and
white. Oh, now it's a drawing.
Now it's this. Now It's not like you can like
time scales to me. Oh dude, that's so sick.
It's. Like that's so sick.
Illustration and. Like the?
Beginning of their sketch that they gave me and then, you know,
some of the uncolored art and things like that.
So yeah, I did that for, I think some of these back here are the
dead Hulk versions that I did a similar thing for and it was
really helpful for me to oh, look, yeah, here we go.
You can like barely see it. Like like my initial just like
pencil. Drawing I.
Think yeah. So this one.
Has like me. Trying to lay it out, Oh my God,
it's following my face and like all the different things that
ended up in the game, but we're a fun way to like get me to lay
it out without just being digitally and it really helped.
My process. And that's why I think like if
anyone is trying to make a game like building a print studio at
home is so easy if you do it really lightweight.
I mean, I, I literally went to my first stuff was I went to
Goodwill and bought 2 printers for like $7.00 each.
They barely work. One of them doesn't print black,
but that's the cover one. It doesn't print like text
black, but it'll print photo black.
And so I like limped these things along and I think it was
probably between ink and like the printers is probably like
100 bucks and that's 90% ink for like all of the copies I've
printed. So like you could and then
staplers like you could staple them with a normal stapler.
But like I have this fun little booklet stapler which is so
good. And it was. 20 bucks on eBay.
So like if you want to get into a game, like even if you don't
do the Kickstarter thing, because a lot of people feel
like they have to do that for like, you know, I need $800 at
least to like send this to print and make it worthwhile because
you know, it'll be $500 to print 10 copies, you know, or, or $800
to print 200 copies. And so like, if you want to just
get something made, you could totally get it.
I mean, this one happy new year in 1999.
This original 1 is stitched instead of stapled because I
didn't have the stapler then. So like, and this is all the
edits for the original game. So you could totally get away
with it just at home and, and make some fun things.
And here's the thing that I. Would of 100 times out of 100
would rather have something that someone like printed at home or
like a $7.00 printer that they like ran into Staples for and
then have some like super polished fucking thing, you know
what I mean? Like, yeah, it's that's that's
this is the indie shit, right? This is the indie shit.
Happy 90. 9 And I like I have, I have some zenes that are not RPG
zenes that are my favorite zenes ever that are just like, oh,
like this one, this is a girl that I know that it's just like,
I mean, this is straight at like Xerox or something.
And it is like just normal paper and absolutely gorgeous.
And so much stuff is in it that like it's one of my favorite
scenes on my shelf. And it's so I don't want to say
like it's, it's under produced to a point where they just like
they wanted to get it done and they want to make something
cool. And that is the cool.
Like you get some really weird, especially in role-playing
games, you get some really weird stuff that's out-of-the-box that
way. That's and that's what I mean.
Listen I bitch about this on so many fucking episodes so I'm not
going to deep in at this time but that's what I missed.
The scene. The primary TRPG scene has
shifted the focus from that cool DIY like get to, to just like to
just over produced over or whatever.
Like you're like the number of people that are like, oh, I have
to complete with D&D and it's just like, bro, D&D is like a $5
billion. You are not a competition.
You're you don't exist. You are a, you are a spec.
You're not like you're 10 levels away from them.
Like you're, you're shut up. Just make a cool thing.
Just make something fun. Yeah, it's, that's literally it.
And again. Like the number of games that
have come out there, like I made this because I wanted to play it
and then other people love it so that they make it like is is
again, like, I don't know, that's peaked me.
That's that those are the games that I like.
And I feel like, again, it's super easy to tell the games
that people made because they were enjoying making it and the
people that made stuff because they needed to sell something
and, you know, and. The other side, obviously, is
the world. Is on fire and we're all broke
as fuck and like people like need money, so I get it, I get
it right, but then like, you know, it's I don't know like the
the the grind set has ruined everything where it's just like
everyone has to feel like that. You either have to monetize your
hobbies or if you start to like do something you like, you have
to like Max it to like you're allowed to just be shitty at
something, but do it because you're like doing it like you
really are. I so this is and.
I will stand behind that and also say that like it is the
thing that stresses me out like every day and why I like didn't
in indulge in games for like a couple of years is because it is
a constant thing of like like I'll make something and put it
out there. I'm like, OK, you know, if no
one reads this, was it worth it kind of thing because but that
is just I mean, that's how humans work, right?
And so constantly, you know, like, like this Grumhall
Kickstarter was much smaller than my other Kickstarters that
that has a lot to do with Kickstarter as a whole.
And like a bunch of these things.
But you're just like, OK, do people not care?
Do should they care? Should I have like made ads?
And like, this is a thing that I've never, I've never run ads
for anything. Like I'm never run an ad.
And so I'm constantly like, oh, I'm not like, I'm not, you know,
I'm not, you know, grinding hard enough kind of.
I'm not pushing this as far as I.
Should be right? Because like, because I want to
get it to more people and so I should have run and it, it's
very hard to be at the end of the day be like, I actually
don't care. I kind of really like that.
Like I have like a bunch of people in discord that are like,
hey, this is how my game went. And like, that's ultimately why
I made the PDF free because I was like, what things earlier
this year I was like, what things stressed me out about
making games and what things? And one of those is like
promotion and things like that. And like what, what do I enjoy
about it? Like what as as a game creator,
like what are the things that I enjoy?
And it's like 100% is like, like people coming up to me to be
like, Oh my God, like I did this insane thing in a game, in like
a game of dead hall. And, and it like was a someone
recently told me they're like, this was a total breath of fresh
air for me because I was talking to some people that were like
really stressed about running games recently and like they
haven't like played much and, and they were like, but this one
I like got into a game of it and then I ran it and like it, it
kind of got me back in because I I felt much a lower stress level
of like, I don't have to have this giant campaign.
I don't have to have those things.
And like that I was like, you know what, I'll keep making
games. That was fun.
Yes, please do. But like.
Beat like that's the whole thing is just like, I don't know, it's
just the insane expectations that everyone puts on themselves
all the time that like social media puts on you, that
everything puts on you. It's just I mean, I've I've
always said forever PDFs of your game should be free because
that's how you get people to play your fucking game and
support your game. And if they love the game,
they'll probably buy the book when you print it.
So like you're not going to direction your money.
Yeah, yeah. I mean somebody like.
Go for it. No, I mean I was just so many
get like. Mouse red is free, mothership is
free, Merck board is free, fucking Karen is free like and
those communities have huge huge followings yeah it like cloud
Empress is. Free, I just recently got that
one, which is fantastic. I that was another thing with
like expectations and stuff like that.
Even like I, I launched all these on my website.
It's just things, it just kind of like threw them out there and
a bunch of people backed or a bunch of people bought them.
I had like the blip and I, you know, I definitely felt like,
you know, I have to make a Kickstarter, right?
Because people could, you know, you know, I want to get it and I
don't know if I'll do it again. And I said I literally swore off
Kickstarter in 2021 after a happy new year 1999.
I was like, it just it puts so much in that campaign did
fantastic, but it puts so much stress on me one because I I put
that campaign together pretty fast and for dead hold, I had
written most of the rules for happy New year.
I had like written like notes about what I wanted and then ran
a. Campaign and then.
Afterwards was like, I have to make this entire thing and it
was so stressful. And I, I, I think I was a little
over the deadline, but I in terms of Kickstarter, it went
very well, which was great. But after that I was like, I
don't want to do this anymore. I just want to like make stuff.
So like get Gordfest is absolutely that every year I
really like Halloween adventures and like Halloween stuff.
And so every year for Dead Hall, since the launch we have made,
yeah, we have made something for Halloween.
It could. It's characters that you can get
vampirism at one point and like adventures and things like that.
And that was like my favorite version of like, working on
games was like, I already have the stuff.
I just want to like, make stuff that people can.
And a bunch of people have played it.
A lot of people have no idea that it even exists.
And it's because I was just putting it out for free.
And then this year I was like, I can collect it all printed in a
book. And like, that felt really good.
Like that was one of my favorite books ever made.
And they're like really like the theme is perfect, I think in
them and like exactly what I wanted.
And it's because I wasn't really rushing for anything.
You know, I was like, I mean, I'm it took me essentially five
years to make the book and it's what, 30 pages or something
because I just was, you know, every time I had inspiration to
make something Halloween, I made it.
And that that I think built up to something better than me
going. I need to make content and like
shove it all together. And I think that's what a lot of
Kickstarters can. Feel like now?
Is, you know, people that feel like, especially Zine quest
feeling like they have to be in every Zine quest and until they
burn out, you know, and throw something together and not that
any of those are like bad in any way.
People did a lot of freaking work for those.
But I think of course, that's why they burn out.
It's because they're trying to shove together something in
three months or something like that.
So and Kickstarter has changed wildly.
I mean, obviously I don't want to get into the whole everything
has changed wildly, but like, I think I was talking to you about
it recently. I just like we definitely were
talking on our Discord about how crazy.
Oh, they're, they're commenting on my webcam tracking about how
crazy everything like was in 2019 that was in quest one,
right, 20, 2018-2019, something like that.
And and like the Kickstarter was booming.
And then it like kind of like rounded off.
And it feels like a lot of a lot of the communities have gone to
like kind of like bastions of different games.
You know, that might be like like, I mean, think of the
mothership, like the mothership mothership.
It's just like like they have their own thing now.
And so it's this weird like like I felt like I had to do Zine
quest so that it would promote me and all the stuff.
And then I did it and I was like, I don't know, everyone
that showed up was people that I brought, you know what I mean?
It's like it. I think it has changed a lot
from like a platform that people just flock to to find new stuff
to like kind of just a pre-order service.
Which it was fine if it was a pre-order service that brought
you people with an algorithm. Not that I enjoy algorithms, but
yeah, this time it felt entirely different.
And I actually felt like kind of bad about some of mine this time
because I was like, man, I just like I have such a bigger
following than I than I the first one.
It was just throw it on Kickstarter, like no, I'd never
made a game. I had never talked to anyone
about this stuff. It was just like straight to
Kickstarter and people just showed up, right, like, because
that's how it was. And then recently, like when I
did, I was like, you know, no one's showing up other than like
people that I've told, which I love having that community,
everything. And I felt kind of bad about it
and I just saw Wat Wat I went to go back their campaign because I
had saved it and everything and they cancelled it and I was
like, wait, wait, wait, why? Because I was like, I was like,
Oh, I got to go do that today. Like I I almost forgot that it
before it ended. And their comments on all of it
was essentially like like we were expecting people to show
and it just like absolutely flat line for them.
So regardless of all the other stuff going on, it just, I think
it is a totally different place from once it used to be.
And it's kind of pushed me more to like, I really want to just,
I, I've been thinking about like starting A blog and some other
like places like on my website where I can put my stuff and
feel good about it and be like, look at this, look at all this
like stuff that you can scroll through.
Because when I'm splitting it between, you know, Kickstarter
and all these other like places that kind of get lost even just
for me, you know, and I love to go through like my website is
chaotic and weird, but I love going on there and scrolling
through it and just seeing my stuff.
And so I want to, I want to kind of pivot more towards like
making a big like collection of everything in one place as
opposed to, you know, splitting it between these, all these
different things. So I don't know what your your
website is crazy and I. Love it I the front.
Page is a little different now, but it feels like fucking like
what what what did we used to have like back when like Zanga
and stuff was a thing? Like it feels like a, you know,
like clicking on like the the download stuff.
First of all, I think we said it in the episode like fucking two
years ago. The amount of stuff you have on
there to play the game too for free with like the ID cards on
the generation stuff is crazy. Go to soft-ware.net, a lot of
cool stuff and we try the website and stuff like that
dude. And the design is fantastic.
Because it fits everything that you're.
Doing it's this very like eclectic like like older feeling
as in like when when social media didn't have algorithms and
we all just had our own little, like pages and shit.
Yeah, yeah. Early 2000s yeah, 2000.
Yeah. You know, the Y2K core is what
what the kids. It's back in vogue, right.
They're trying to bring back. I'm OK the worst part bring it
back. Whatever.
Yeah, it's whatever. Like I just don't want to see
any like low. Rise bell bottom stuff.
I'm like we never looked good in those, but anyway, but it's
great. The grub sites great, but
everything you said is like is I think what a lot of people in
the scene are are wrestling with.
And you know, one of the things that you know, I, I talked to
you before about just for a while feeling really burnt out
on on teach RPGs because of the this, everything is a product
and everything has to be this, this thing.
And it's just like, it doesn't feel like any of you like doing
this. Like it doesn't feel like you
know it. It just all it is is stress
after stress after stress and making a thing and being
stressed because you have to make another thing and it comes
through. And if the expectations could
just change where it's just like, OK, like if no one reads
it, but you enjoyed making it and then you can put on your
website and see it and you can enjoyment from seeing it, then
who gives a shit? Like, you know, as humans, I'm
sure it's always, well, I want a million people to see it.
I you know, you make a thing. If you enjoyed making it while
you made it, you got what you got out of it.
Everything else is bonus, you know, and it's, I don't know, I
think a lot of mindsets are going to need to change.
And I think in this economy, you know, things need to change.
And you already said Kickstarter's been going down
since like, yeah, 2021-2022. It, it, it took a big limit.
Literally. You can like, watch the Ark.
Yeah. And then for Zine Quest at
least. For, I mean for.
Projects across the board, I mean, I bet.
Too many projects, but but you can tell with that.
And, and it doesn't help that in this, I mean, we're literally,
you know, one bomb from, from World War three right now.
A lot of people's, you know, wallets have been tighter for
years and, and it's a lot harder.
So it's probably an easier sell to be like, hey, here's the
thing for 10 bucks versus like, hey, here's the thing for like
80 bucks, because I got a box ship from China and I got
special dice for it. It's like I got my own fucking
dice. I think that's exactly what Watt
was talking about. They were like, this is it's
just not feasible because they're going to ship them from
China. And I think I was watching your,
your talk with them and, and talking about like the
harmonization number, if it counts as a, if it counts as a
board game versus a like book and like how much more expensive
it would be if it was a board game.
And that's ultimately why I, I, you know, I say to myself, like,
I want to stay in this lane because I can print this at my
house and ship it to you. A lot of these, I even had
someone talk about they're in another country and they're like
the, the import cost for them, like when it arrives, whatever
it's called for theirs, it was so high.
And I was like, I can literally put this in a letter envelope
because it's under 3 oz, put a stamp on it and ship it to you
and, and it will show up. And they're like, really?
I was like, yeah, 'cause it's like it is essentially a, a
booklet of paper and I can do that.
And so staying with that kind of like, and I mean, that's why
Zenes were a thing in the 1st place.
Like that was the whole point. And then because it was stuck
with it I think. Maybe where are can I I.
I've talked a lot about this recently with a lot of other
people is like where I feel like we're at like this.
This weird place. Where I like everyone's like,
OK, so where are we going? Because we're at like the end of
this thing, right? And I don't and we don't.
But no one. Knows where the next.
Thing is, and so I've just been, you know, throwing ideas at the
wall of like, you know what it what is the next fun thing that
we can all, you know, whether that be like, I don't want it to
be a platform, but whether it be a platform or, you know, like a
way of creating things like zenes and things like that.
Like, yeah, what's the, what's, what's our outlet for, for all
the, the chaos, I mean magazines.
Go back to making jeans like it was it's such a weird thing the
the the the way they teach RPGs became so overproduced like this
this mix of like board games doing super good on Kickstarter
mixed with cool mini or not factor yeah and then it's.
Just like again like the the most.
Of the people that you are like referencing in.
What not? You but people in with their
level of what they're making you're not on that level so
you're not competition that's not what you should be shooting
for it's just crazy but like with with Kickstarter like I
said like you can drop a board game that makes a freaking
$1,000,000 in in 2 days or whatever you can do this you can
do that and it's just like that's not that's probably not
going to be you you know what I mean it's also crazy seeing some
of them being like oh we. Made $1,000,000 in two days and
were like not in debt, but like it's not going to work because,
because it, you know, I think a lot of I work a lot in
Kickstarter for my job and everything like that.
And so it's like seeing the back end of it is so crazy because
and then like seeing Watts thing too was is kind of sad that it's
like like I was watching Watts campaign.
I was like they made 30 grand in like a day, like 2 days.
Like that's crazy. And then to have them be like,
yeah, it just, it doesn't work because the numbers don't math
out. And it's like, oh, like you
don't even think about how, you know, the back end of it is so
crazy that some of these board games that you're like, Oh my
gosh, they made $1,000,000. Yeah, but it costs a million and
a half to print the game for that many people.
And you're like, well, and sometimes if you do have a, A.
Project that blows. Up above and beyond, you get to
a point where like, say, say you print a Zine, right?
And then you're expecting to sell 500 of them and you sell
10,000 of them and your costs were only to ship 500 scenes and
now suddenly you're like, well, how do I even fucking pay them?
Yeah dude, it's insane yeah. Then you have to start getting.
Fulfillment partners and things. Like that, which is crazy.
I mean, even giant ones like Trench Crusade was a project
that blew the fuck up. And I'll tell you what, like
they're the I do not envy them the cluster fuck that was trying
to get all those minis out because mine showed up with half
of them missing like and I was the last batch.
It was like a year later. I got him like a month ago,
which is crazy. And half of them were missing.
And then I had to e-mail a bunch to get them to send me those.
But even in those were the print quality on that second batch was
like, and it's just like, cool, right?
And now I have this like I have the book, but I they took me a
year to get the minis and then they weren't there.
And it's just like now I feel like I don't really give a shit
about Trent Tuesday right now, because like the experience was
not great because they were. So it was too much, you know,
and we've talked to a couple people who've had projects that
got so big. They're like, fuck, how do I
even, what do I even, what is distribution?
Like? How does this even work?
So it's, you know, it's and it is different.
I mean, I, I will say real quick, someone to chat just
recently just mentioned Blade 68.
The difference between Blade 68 and is that Evil Hat is a a
company that's a a level above they have.
People. That we're talking about, yeah,
they. Are they have?
International distribution, they they are a a publisher that has
done a lot of huge things so that yes, it's going to be big
for them, but they they have they are at the level where they
can do $1,000,000 Kickstarter and be prepared to like Evil Hat
is up. It's like Cobalt Press and the
rest of these guys that have the capabilities that that it won't
impact them in that way. But but it's crazy.
So I mean people can suffer from the success.
People gonna just be like the costs ended up being too much
because it was too good. Sorry, but growing too fast
thing. It's, I mean, that's always been
a. Thing in, you know, any
industry, but but in this it's because of Kickstarter
essentially like it's whenever I see, you know, like stuff on
exalted funeral or stuff things that go like right to there and
then they sell out like that's not a problem for exalted
funeral. You know what I mean?
Like like it won't ruin them that they sold out because they
didn't oversell and like Kickstarter is like built to
oversell, which is great. I mean like stretch goals are
literally overselling what your stock is essentially.
And so it's this weird like, like it's a, it's a great kick
start to your business until it ruins you.
And I mean, that's what Kickstarter is, is like, is
everyone talking about. And obviously there's a, there's
tons of bad blood in Kickstarter now at this point because people
are like, is it even worth it? Because they might never show
up. And we've shown time and time
again that these things may never get made.
And it's like, is that worth it? I've always tried to keep things
small. Like with my T-shirt campaign, I
literally did a make 100. I was like, I'm only making a
hundred of these. I will make more at some point.
But if for whatever reason you know, I sell and this would
never happen. But if I sold 5000 T-shirts,
like I'm not going to be able to do that anymore.
I can't do I'm literally hand screen printing these.
I can't do that. And so I think there is a lot of
things for which is why I super encourage people to like
literally print their zenes at home and like sell them
somewhere, sell them on Etsy, sell them on eBay, whatever
things like that is because you can, you can add the cap and
people don't, you know, they see the success of Kickstarters and
they want every, of course everyone wants to be successful
in some way. They want their game to be big,
but your game is big and uh oh, like it's, it could ruin your
life. And so I think it's it's fun to
have the like the outlet and yes, you it will always.
Nag you that you? Don't have $1,000,000
Kickstarter. It's always going to happen.
It's just how humans are. But but but you can also get to
make cool stuff and not ruin everything and ruin your love
for it. So, yeah, I mean the number of
people that like burnout that. That aren't even in the space
anymore and and the vast majority of the time it's
because they did a fucking Kickstarter.
Just print your shit, tell your shit.
If you're gonna do a Kickstarter, have it ready to go
with literally so you could just hit hit like ship on the thing
and and that's it. I don't know we I don't know
this devolved into like Kickstarter talk for 30 minutes.
Great chat. That was absolutely, but it's.
It's it's just, I don't know, like I said, I think.
I think there needs to be a big realignment of expectations of a
joy of, of a lot of things in the teach RPG space.
Because at this point, to me, I don't know, it's fucking broken.
And it's one reason that, you know, I've, I've shifted more
towards Garmin stuff because it feels, you know, I feel like a
lot of people in in that scene like playing games.
And I feel like a lot of people in THRPGS don't like them.
And, and I feel like a lot of them don't even fucking play
them. They're just like, well, I, I, I
made this thing and now I must sell.
Like, you know, and it's cool. You don't like, I don't know,
make I think a, a big thing like Mordheim.
There's. Like nothing to buy like the
miniatures take the game yeah, it's complete and I I, I had.
Such a good. Time like getting into like
Mordheim stuff for people who don't know, it's just old, old
Warhammer type miniatures game from 1999 or something and it
completely died in the old fantasy or something.
Yeah, and. And the weird thing with it is
there's not. Like no one can really sell you
anything. The most they can sell you is
like Trench Crusade, which is like it, but but like, if you're
actually just into Wardheim, like you have to make everything
you have to, you have to print your Zine.
Where's my Zine? You have to like, print your
Zine, copy of it and like hand stitch because there's nothing
to buy or build your train or paint your minis.
And I think that was like the RPG thing for a while, right?
It was the like, oh, you need to make more content then you got
to make it. Yeah.
And that's, well, I mean, it's, it's also like.
Here's the problem when you get everything.
You need in a box. Right, you don't need to do
anything for it. You have it right, like we
talked about it like if you just give me a Zine, right and I need
to go print in a character sheet and then I need to go to the
store and buy dice like I every time I need to put effort, it's
the that is the fun that. Is the hobby part.
Of the thing it's it, and it also it.
It makes you feel invested in what you're doing, right?
If you make everything so easy, people don't give a fuck, you
know what I mean? Like, you make it so easy, they
don't have to care. But like, if you're like, you
need this dice, go to your FLGS and like, go buy that dice.
If I am going to go buy dice for this game, I'm playing this
goddamn game, You know what I mean?
Like, there's just everything harder.
Yeah, there's. Make everything harder.
Make everything. Harder because then people,
actually they people will invest.
More and that's the problem. Is that like when everything is
surface level and everything is a product and it all looks the
same and it's all completely polished and there's no work to
do and there's nothing like people don't give a shit.
Like it's straight up, you know, and you know, it's just, I don't
know, it's right. Like, and like you said, you
know, having to like get your own minis and, and kick back
your own thing and build your own terrain.
You're playing with that shit, you know.
So it's just, I don't know, again, I would rather have a
Zine than, you know, some super polished hardcover with a dice,
with all the special stuff, with a character sheet pad with all
the other stuff in it. And it sounds almost counter
intuitive where it's just like, well, if you need all these
things, let me give them to you. And it's just like, no, it's on
a floppy disk. It's on a floppy.
Disk let me print it out at work like.
I don't know, make me work for it a little bit.
I had fun making the Mordheim like I had to.
Do a whole bunch too because on Broheim there's a whole bunch of
the PDFs, but like they're not the right size and stuff.
So I had to like cut this down and like stitch it.
And ultimately that's why I wanted the PDFs of dead halt to
be free because I was like, you can print these out.
And I, I really want to make a video on just like different
ways to physically make a Zine. Like like how to, you know, it
took me a long time to figure out how to make a booklet, you
know, just like how to lay it out.
So it's a booklet so I can print a booklet, you know, so it's not
just like a stack of paper and like how to fold it and cut it
right and do these things. And like the ways I started to
do those things were like a ruler in an exacto knife.
And I think I think having there's a bunch of resources, I
think even like through at Altons door has like a like a
setup on how he did like his initial scenes and things like
that. And I think having some videos
or stuff on that, especially just like specifically the RPG
space, I think would be cool to like physically show like all
different ways. Like, you know, the staplers you
could use the you know, how can you, OK, you don't have any of
this stuff. Here's how to make it with like
nothing like go to the library, do this thing.
You don't have AI think everyone can get to a stapler at some
point. But like you can sew them like
you can even there's ways to fold them so that they just work
as a folded book. And I think that stuff would
kind of pocket mods where you can just like cut those two
little things and you. Get like a 60 piece little
thing. Yeah, I think there's a there's
a print shop. In my town that is not, it has
nothing to do with Zen's or it has nothing to do with RPGs, but
there's a bunch of people they're making really weird,
like letter pressed print products and some of them are
booklets that they like open up and show to me.
I'm like, what is this? And they're like the one kid was
talking. He's like, oh, it's like a 36 by
36 sheet of paper that I caught at these like intervals and he
like laid out the print and he folds it into a book.
This there's no binding whatsoever.
I was like, that's awesome. Like that's the coolest way to
make any book. And so I, I want to, I've, I've
talked about this in my Discord 2.
Is that like, I really want to make a forum, like an old school
forum because to get all of these things together somewhere
like, yeah, I could put this on Twitter.
I'm still, you know, I can put this on blue Sky or like on a
blog or something. Blog's a little bit better, but
like. For people to search it and find
it like if I put this in my discord, no one would really be
able to find it, right? It's stuck in there.
And especially if you know, Discord goes away, then it's
gone. And so I've been wanting to make
like, you know, a old school forum with like posting things
so that I can get together RPG stuff like this that's like, oh,
you want to actually print your own book?
Here's how you do it. Or here's a bunch of different
ways because, you know, everyone knows how to like send it to,
you know, mix them or whatever. Mix them.
Yeah, but they cost money and I don't you.
Know sometimes you don't. Want to spend money?
Sometimes you just want to print your own book for yourself and
be done. I'm trying to think of who it
was. I'm I'm.
I'm blanking on the name. I have a bunch of their stuff
but Merkborg. There was somebody who made a
bunch of stuff for Merkborg but then they started going like
what's the weirdest shit I can do with like print stuff?
At one point they put it on an adventure on like a fold out
map, but like the map had just like a hard front and a hard
back, but like when you opened it up, it was like an accordion.
It was like this giant thing and then you.
Just folded it down and they. Figured out how to lay it out so
this giant map was the freaking adventure, you know, and I've
seen people print like the newspaper stuff.
Have you seen that The ones where you can print like your
your wedding thing, but it's like a newspaper or whatever
people are like using that to print games and stuff.
There's a million things that people can do.
A lot of that is scattered everywhere though, and I think
it would be really cool to you. Know, like I'll find, yeah, like
blue sky posts. I'm like, that is incredible,
like what you just did. But no one's going to, you know,
the people who are there will find it.
But then yes, you know, if you're searching like RPG games
on Google, which people do still.
I still search things on Google like how do I go to
soft-ware.net to find the updated forum?
For all of the cool stuff from now on, I would like to do that.
I just do and that's where I want to post.
Stuff so I'm not really great with I did HTML code to the
website, which is horrific. I cannot I don't have the skills
to do a forum, but I could probably get closer.
There's AI was building A blog on there recently and so I, I
think I'm going to put more stuff into into the website to
just have resources for people who want to make anything.
I think it's yes accessibility school and make.
It Let's get back to making. Indie shit.
DIY indie shit. That's what we want.
That's what we all want. We don't want all the public
bullshit. Listen, we're not like you're
not selling to 5 E players. You're playing.
You're selling to people that actually play T tar PGS.
We want cool DIY indie shit. Just make that shit.
Yeah. What did someone say?
A stolen? Sharpie.
Revolution. Has a lot of good.
I don't know what that is. Every town has a print shop.
My, my Afghans. Got printed in freaking Grand
Rapids, MI and and mailed to me and I was so happy to get them.
So yeah, my my, the original dead hole covers were printed.
In in Angelica, NY, which is in the middle of nowhere at a print
shop that was like an old railroad station and it was
printed on 100 year old press. Like we printed out the OR we
like, we made the like block prints and then literally like
it's, it's ink and on this big weird press.
And I that's, it was, it was a lot of fun to make and it was
cool. And it, you know, it makes me
feel good when you're I think my ultimate like design the the at
the very beginning. I was like if.
I can, you know, if you want to talk about like legacy thing, I
was like, I want some kid randomly like after I'm dead to
find a a copy of dead haul like in a basement in Seattle or
something. And like if that happens,
absolute success because I find books like that all the time
that are like I found some really weird books that are
clearly like they're so small print run because they were just
made because they wanted to make them.
And and that stuff is when I find those.
I I feel this weird connection that I've never have gotten with
like there's some, yeah, I have some weird ones mostly about
houses and like building cabinetry and stuff like that.
You're like, this is some dude just wrote this.
That stuff is peak. And that's what I'm talking
about. And it's just like.
I don't know, THRPGS to me are craft and I think people will
need to get back to to to being makers and being craft.
People with THRPG is like make it DIY again.
Don't just go from fucking affinity to mix AM and then to
to to the distro. You never touch the books.
You never like. I don't know, get back to being
makers and DIY Rs and crafters and and and I don't know the IT
will show. It will show shows, shows in the
games, But that's us. That's that is our 30.
Minute. Complaint section about
Kickstarter and the current space.
It's a call to action. It's a call to action make.
Cool shit again, but that is. Listen, this has been Zonware.
Where Ben, where can people find?
We've said it a million times, it's on the screen.
Where can people find you? Where can people find this new
forum you're going to put again Find all of your stuff website.
Yeah, Yeah. So my.
Website zonware.net. Has.
The very 90s onward.net. I swear it's not a scam, even
though it looks like it's made 40 years ago.
But I that has I also have an itch dot IO and and a discord,
but all that stuff is linked on my website.
So if you go to the website, hang out there and you know,
there's physical prints on my games.
There's also links to all the itch dot IO free PDFs.
So if you want to play the game, you could just go grab one and
play it and have fun with it. And then if you want to ask me
any questions or anything, there's a discord or also my
emails on there. So yeah, make some cool games.
Any cool stuff? Play dead hall, jump on the
discord tell. Tell Ben how cool it is, because
it is. It is one of the most underrated
games in TTRPGS. I've been saying it for at least
two years since episode 78. Go buy the stuff, do those
things. Ben, It's it's been an absolute
pleasure. I have a very strong feeling
this is not the last time you're going to be on the show, and
it's definitely not the last time we're going to talk.
Yeah. So thank you so much for coming
on. It's been, it's been an absolute
pleasure. Cool.
Thanks, dude. Cool.
All right. Well, that has been us, see.
You next when we see you and all the links to all the places will
be where you think they are. So we'll see y'all later.
Bye.