Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll podcast.
My name is Ryan and with us today we have a very special
guest. This is Kayla Dice.
How are you doing today, Kayla? I'm doing good.
It's lovely.
Lovely to be here. Yeah.
I mean this is a wonderful project.
I I only recently heard about it and as soon as I saw it I was
like Oh no, we have to we absolutely have to have Kayla on
to talk about this project. It's gorgeous.
The mechanics look really fantastic.
The theme sound really amazing. So very excited to to have you
here on the show but for for those that might not know you
some from some of your previous work like who who who the heck
is Kayla Dice like what? Tell me about you and and your
teacher RPG's. Yeah, so I've been making TTRPG
since about like 2021. Basically like December 2020 I
think was is the day I often list.
I published games as Rat Wave Gamehouse.
Some of the things I've made include Transgender, Deathmatch,
Legend, Old Gods, and Young Guns.
Fear the taste of blood is no one I have.
I'll be honest I've oh follow me in the night is one that
actually sell like which I know people have played and enjoyed.
I like. I never know which games of mind
to say I've made because I don't know which people will know not
that's me getting off topic. I often think my games are
focused on like themes of alienation and connection.
And yeah, I was. Awarded this year I was one of
the winners of the Diana Jones Emerging Designer Award.
And now I am working on and running the Kickstarter for
Terminal, a digital pirate action game that I have made
with other people. And I'm really proud of.
Yeah, again, I mean, we're going to get to Terminal because it's,
it's a really gorgeous project. But one of the things I want to
talk about a little bit was the the Awardy 1.
So I know of the award mostly because of some of the, you
know, discourse around this year with some of the stuff that I
felt like overshadowed the entire thing.
But can you tell me about that? Is that something that you
applied for? That's something that you were
chosen for? Like how?
How does that come about to become like the award winner for
this, like emerging? Yeah, I self nominated.
It's like a whole quite an indepth thing to like write a
bio, write like what you thought like the future held for you and
then send samples of your work over.
And then I think they announced 8 finalists.
I remember because there are a lot of like really, really cool
people on the sort of finalists list TO11 chosen after.
And then they announced like the the four winners.
And so as part of the prize, like I'm going to Jencon later
this year, which is really exciting.
It's weird to be going to Jencon at a point where, like, you're
moving your flat because you can't afford to pay the rent.
Just because they're raising it. I've thought like, but it's
that's that's a weird thing that is only happening because of
this water, which is nice. The things I sent in, I sent in
bit of Transgender, Deathmatch, Legend and Old Gods.
And then I also sent in the Infinite Dance Floor, which was
a game I I made about trying to escape this sort of winding
labyrinthian nightclub, all set to sort of music.
So. Yeah I just had to sort of it
was it's a it's a very self-conscious thing to self
nominate for an award because I'm like I think Kayla is so
great This is why I think Kayla is great.
The For these reasons specifically, it's weird.
I I'm glad I did it because I think like it's it's always
inherently I think a bit embarrassing to to try and talk
about. Yourself, but also if you don't
know, one's going to be listening.
So a lot of those awards do that.
They're like the innies, you have to self nominate for the
innies and stuff like that too. So it's kind of, I mean there's
just so much out there. I think it would be hard for for
people to really be able to focus in on, I don't know, even
just one part of like this huge like river of things streaming
by. But you know it's.
Definitely for like an emerging designer thing where it's like
the entire point is you're in theory grabbing people who are
people are less aware of and hopefully like exposing them to
a wider audience. And like it would be a sort of
like huge task if someone was just like nobody just scouting
for that. No, no nominations, no self
nominations. Like the self nomination thing,
It does at least make it more possible for.
For people. Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, and you want and you get to go to Jim Cotton,
which is really fantastic. I mean and it's isn't that like
all expense paid and everything too.
So like you just get to come on over here.
And is it? Where is Jen Cotton by the way?
I know it's in August. Yeah.
Yeah, in Annapolis. That's right.
When is that? Yeah, yeah.
Sorry. I heard when Jen Con is that.
No, I said where. Yeah, you're right here that.
Yeah. Right.
You did say that. I did hear it.
Right, Yeah.
Yeah, it's no, that's all expenses paid initially like a
gig issue. I was like, can you buy your
ticket and get a refund? And I was like, no, I under no
circumstances can afford a plane ticket to America even if I was
getting that money back the next.
And there's not that much money in my account.
So it does. It does feel like a really
unique. Opportunity.
I don't want to say once in a lifetime because I feel that
implies something about how I feel the rest of my life is
going. But like it feels rare and is
not saying I am able to replicate without this
assistance like next year or anything.
So it does feel like a really exciting to to get to go out
there that's really that's fantastic.
Again, like, you know, congratulations.
I mean, if Terminal is in any way, shape or form indicative of
the stuff you're going to create, I feel like it is
incredibly well deserved. So.
So one of the things you discussed as well is the themes
of a lot of your projects. And I know Terminal, you know,
has a lot of themes that you've discussed and might come up in
your previous games. What did you say those themes
were, and what really kind of draws you to create specifically
tabletop games, you know, with those themes?
Yeah, I often say. My games are often about like
alienation and connection. Being honest, I only noticed
that afterwards I like often felt like like create a lot of
different games. And I was struggling to talk
about it when I was telling people because they're like what
kind of games do you make? And I was like well,
mechanically they're not always that similar, you know, like I I
made like an action game and then I made like a belonging
outside belonging game. And then after that I was making
like a card based fighting game and I was like none of these
are. Mechanically similar.
I can't necessarily say if you enjoy how this thing played,
you'll enjoy how this thing played.
You might, but that's not necessarily on the basis of what
I've done. And so I was looking over the
themes of my work and I was like, oh, yes, so many of these
do focus on this idea of alienation or connection.
You're often a lot of the characters in games I make are
kind of there's something that is at least mentally putting you
on the outside in a sort of outsider role and often.
I think there is a big emphasis and a lot of my things say like
how to embrace this one preacher which is very much about my like
adolescence is about like the relationships you're forming
with other people. Like if I'm being honest like
what I think that is informed by is a sense of alienation I felt
for a lot of my life and which like I'd a tribute to when I was
I was growing up in a I guess like close minded area and I'm
autistic and. You know, not that I wasn't out
when I was younger, but I am trans.
And it's like there was a part of me that I think for most of
my life, definitely for my most of my adolescence.
And then honestly, for a lot of my adult life, I felt like apart
from other people and alien to other people.
And so even now as an adult, I think I carry that sense with
me. Even if I look around at my life
and go like, oh, I I now know lots of people who are a lot
like me and who I feel like really in touch with, I do think
I'm still carrying. That sense that like old self
perception. And so I think that is why I go
to the theme a lot in games and sometimes it's very explicit how
to embrace the swamp creature was like a belonging outside
belonging game and it was very much sort of filtered
autobiography. And so that was a like sort of
conscious like engagement with that.
Other times I just noticed that after the facts like I like, I
wrote an adventure. I was like, oh, I don't know if
this relates to my sort of like, key themes, at least what I say.
In talking about myself. And then I looked at it more and
I was like, Oh no, this is so much about the relationship with
this singular MPC and how you feel if you realize you don't
really know each other. And with Terminal, I definitely
knew I was like going back to that, well, because it's so much
about this idea of like the entire world is wrong and you
feel like the only person who can see that.
And that makes you feel crazy. Yeah.
I mean it it's really interesting how so many people,
especially through the Pandemic and post Pandemic, we're really
able to kind of dig into not only games but themselves like
through the process. So it's really nice to see that
kind of come through. And I know with Terminal, let's
just so let's get into Terminal. Why don't you talk about tell me
what Terminal is like, as like what's the, what's the, what's
the byline, what's the pitch for Terminal?
So Terminal. I describe it as a digital
pirate action game. The basic premise is the world
as you know it turns the 21st century.
Earth is a lie. It is nothing but a simulation
called the titular terminal that is designed to keep humanity
trapped by the robot authority and.
There are those people who can feel it's wrong and confine
themselves to escape, and then they end up in the real world,
where humanity in the robots in the early conflict shattered the
moon, flooded the world, and now they they sail the seas.
They do battle with killer robots, they plug back into the
system and they try and take down.
It's a I think we lost Kayla for just a second.
We'll get her back momentarily. And they nail beyond them.
There we go. I think we're back again.
Yep, I think we're back. So I think you cut off right
after you started talking about the destruction of the moon and
that the robot authority had done.
Yeah. Yeah, so the Earth is is
flooded, your characters, your Pirates of the wake the real
World sail the seas, battle killer robots and they plug back
into the simulation and fight the systems, agents and
architects and trying to sort of free other people who are still
sort of stuck in that situation. I'd say it's like it's very
obviously inspired by the Matrix.
And then from there there's the bringing in of like sort of
pirate influences. And there's a lot of thought on
like sort of like dreams and dream logic and nightmares.
You know the way to freeing a sleeper.
The person caught in this simulation in the game is often
like diving into their dreams, defeating nightmares they have,
and helping them reach a door where they can wake up.
It's rules wise. It's a it's based on inevitable
by so Muppets. So it's the key things are sort
of your reputations, how people think of you, how?
You know that and that. Maybe people you respect it,
maybe people you begrudgingly respect it.
Maybe people who hate you, but how you afford of by like 2
Worlds and then also so that's how it's decided and challenges
and then there's also showdowns where it's really what you are
willing to give up as a cost. You know, you're fighting the
weight of the world and you need to be prepared to, like, burn
down a lot of things just to. Achieve a future and build
something outside of this manipulative control of the
robots. So what was the kind of seed
that started this? Was it?
Were you thinking about like making a game with Matrix as an
inspiration, or were the mechanics started it and that's
just kind of the direction it went in?
Like what was the impetus for the beginning of the project?
So I was a play tester for inevitable if I sold my bit and
I I play tested in that game like played a campaign that was
maybe three months and I had a lot of fun.
And as that finished it's Kickstarter, I was talking a lot
about it with Zach from Solo bit and often just bouncing around
like sort of like random ideas, like sometimes more as a
hypothetical way, just like oh, I bet you could do.
You know, like a Ragnarok story in the inevitable system or
something like that. And at one point I said I think
you could do the Matrix and after a back and they were like,
I don't think you could. And then I was like actually I
think you could do the Matrix sequels.
And I think that would be a good thing because I like those
films. But like that was just the
starting point. And then like in a notepad I was
just putting out some ideas and part of the reason like pirate
influence then came in. So it was always the starting
point of the system meeting the Matrix.
And then other influences are really where it developed some.
Some of that was very conscious at start like I was like I
didn't entirely want to do a it's just the matrix of the
serial numbers filed off. Not necessarily be anything
wrong with that, but it felt like I wouldn't have necessarily
enjoyed writing characters and settings in that world because
I'd go back to thinking of everyone as like this is almost
Morpheus, but not I ended up settling into like this par
influence. Which kind of brought a lot of
themes about like about control and about like society and
people who are, you know, not sort of like fitting in in in a
society or can't sort of like click in this system that isn't
really very designed to be cruel and then like a key change.
Like both like. Setting wise.
But then also that had this big knock on effect was I decided
like on the Matrix they plug all these people in and they're
using them for energy. And I decided well what if
they're not doing that? What if they're just doing it
because they think the simulation is what people
deserve and what society should look like.
And that for me really unlocked a lot of where like the games
themes came about. Specifically this idea.
I say sometimes if it's like it's about feeling crazy and
it's about. People and forces that wanted
you to feel crazy and wanted to to use that against you.
So yeah, it's like, I know on its surface I'm like, I have to
say like it's Matrix crossed with Black Sails and it's like a
big swashbuckling cyberpug adventure game.
And it is. But also there is, you know, for
me it actually ended up like channeling a lot of things I've
like to struggle to have over my life.
Yeah, I mean like you said before you, it seems like you
channel a lot of yourself into your games.
So it's interesting to see the variety of different games and
and where this one's going to go.
I'm actually surprised kind of with the Matrix how like there
hasn't kind of been more spin off stuff of the Matrix.
Like it's just a system where you plug people into a
simulation. So why is so much of it always
like the late 90s when you could easily plug people into like
pirate times or like medieval times?
Like I'm kind of almost more surprised.
I mean you kind of then or make it like Isakai at that point.
But like I, it's always kind of surprised me that they didn't do
more spin offs like the Animatrix and stuff where people
are plugged into different systems.
And I think it's a great, a great idea and a great concept
to think of to have these like you know, kind of the themes of
plugging people into the Matrix. But to have, I mean I feel like
sailing pirate ships would be so easy considering the in the
later sequels like you talked about, a lot of them are on
actual ships like the Nebuchadnezzar and whatnot and
they're just like going through the outside.
So why not plug them into to actually doing ships as well.
So I'm I'm excited to see a you know again it's not just Matrix
with the serial number filed off but to see like the Matrix but
like as pirates like that sounds like such a fun mash of of what
to do especially if you've you know tweaked the tweaked the
world and and brought in all these extra themes and what not.
Also though, like why? What first made you say, when
you were you know, talking about inevitable?
But like the Matrix, was that? Like was there any link between
like the like the Bakowskis and and The Matrix?
Or is Matrix just like a piece of media that you've you've
always loved or? I like, I'm trying to think.
When I first saw The Matrix, I think I was 14 maybe and I think
my sister's boyfriend at the time, elder sister's boyfriend
told me I should see it. So I ended up watching over
weekend. I liked all of like.
The free films, I don't, I mean I to be honest, I don't have
much memories from before I was 16 anyway.
They were all kind of blurry. But like I don't remember
necessarily thinking about it in like a trans way at that time.
And I remember it was when I was, I know, 19 or 20 and was
semi like newly out and someone was like, Oh yeah, Matrix.
Matrix is trans, all right. You know, probably before that
because. Ilana Wachowski came out before
I did, and I think at that point the sort of obviousness of oh,
is this a metaphor in that sense?
So that's probably why I've always liked it.
I was thinking a lot about The Matrix because of the full film
that came out like two years ago.
I think I'd watched The Matrix recently at the time.
And in terms of me linking, it's a system of inevitable.
It's like a never listless idea of like failure.
Constantly, like is always going to happen, is often about like
sort of trying in vain and also about like this sort of like big
stakes and big pivotal showdowns.
And I just remember thinking like, oh, you know, what is it
here if the thing that is inevitable, the thing that is
doomed, is, you know, an iteration of a simulation?
And that then was like like a nice time point thinking like
because that is ultimately sort of this apocalyptic scale, it's
actually an interesting thing. Maybe.
I think a difference in that is because I feel like the early
on, like in Matrix we loaded the Architect is like this
simulation is going to crash soon.
And we don't actually see what that looks like.
We just know it and then everything gets smithed.
But this idea of like all the simulation itself is gradually
becoming unstable. And in a game sense, that's
really interesting because I think it fans out.
This thing of like instability is introduced.
A reincarnation of like a really powerful figure has emerged.
And instead of like it then being this linear narrative,
it's like there are so many people who are scrambling to
make that sort of final moves in the face of this digital
apocalypse. So you talk about the inevitable
system in the sense of, I mean it's called inevitable for a
reason, to make sense when you think of the system and stuff
like that. And at its core, you use the
core mechanics of that, which I love, the core mechanics that
you use here. And inevitable.
We did talk to Zach previously about inevitable because this
style of mechanic really lends to their narrative a lot without
mechanically like getting in the way.
And I love systems that are that have that feel where the
mechanics are there like just enough to have more of like a
like a framework and a guide as opposed to this thing that you
also have to deal with while you're playing.
And I think it's it's a really, really well done in in in the
parts of Terminal they've seen so far.
But what are those core mechanics?
I know two of the big ones are challenges and showdowns they
have, you know they're similar because it's a system that makes
sense within itself. But I know they're very
different. So what?
What if you don't mind talking about the core mechanic of like
a challenge and then of a of a showdown?
What are those core mechanics? Yeah.
So a challenge is often any sort of like.
Smaller scale thing where you're trying to sort of gain you know
when there is something that can go wrong.
And the same, you want to accomplish challenges like a
series of questions which help you build your dice pool.
And those questions often may relate to like do you have
reputations that are helpful here?
Does the fact that you are brave help you as you're trying to,
like you know, hack into this machine's brain to find out the
location of? You know a robot ship which has
captured one of your your comrades.
Does your fact you're brave helpful?
Is it? Is it not?
That might give you a dice. Does the fact that you are
emotional make you more likely to mess up and does that lose
you a dice? Some things like equipment are
you alone can have people help. It's a fairly sort of like easy
thing to go through. Definitely.
Like in the the format is presented and then that gives
you your final pull and you roll and usually if you are
successful like it's mainly like I think it's principal thing
it's it's driving the narrative, it's what happens next in terms
of then how that informs mechanics of showdown though it
can be opportunities to gain showdown tokens.
So it's essentially a reward for like you have been in the build
up of this adventure, you've been.
Doing things that are giving you a fighting chance.
When you get to this final showdown, if things go wrong, it
may be like, well, actually this this fret is getting worse, this
thing is getting bigger because you've screwed up in ways that
are letting them get stronger. And middle options may be sort
of you know. Other drawbacks can be presented
as well as getting. You're sort of chance at a
token. It may be you're you're injuring
yourself. Maybe you're damaging your
relationships with other people. It may be that while you're
focusing on this one thing, something else is getting worse
elsewhere. And then when you reach the
point of showdown, you know it's from there.
Everything else gets stripped away.
It's a single roll. You're getting all of your
bonuses for you know you've done well.
Against all of this threat, which is the here's where you
may be fucked up or let things get away.
And you need to add a last bonus, which is by figuring out
the cost. This is where, like the rules
slightly differ from inevitable. The mafia is just sort of like
all all being added and cost is always happening because you
were just trying to. Beat the single sort of frat and
the cost is you know what you're willing to play.
Some of the differences in the game I know inevitable is like a
play to lose game and I think of Terminal is 1 where it is much
more straightforwardly possible to win.
Win for given value things, but like succeed, but you are having
to play to decide what you're willing to lose.
You know, if it's a showdown where it's like you're
destroying this doppelganger of, you know your.
Ex best friend who's passed away is does the cost you're willing
to pay, like, you know, a loss of your reputation.
You were Stony hearted and now you're like, you know, troubled,
rattled or something. Is it bigger things like, oh, we
do this and we're getting hated by all of these people because
they're going to see it as we did something that's different.
Is it, you know, literal like injury or damaged where you're
like, yeah, I'm going to. Like, I'm going to wrap my hands
around his throat and then he's going to explode and I'm losing
this arm and you're you as a player are leveraging this
thing. You're talking about it and
agreeing of it, the GM. And then you have to make this
role and that thing happens even if you then fail.
And then it's the case of in this limited window, Can someone
else stand up and save yourself that it's like these big
dramatic moments? I guess in terms of thinking
about The Matrix, it's things like.
The fight in the hallway at the end of the first one, all the
sort of the burly brawl like these are these big sort of like
set piece moments which then like the challenges are building
up towards in a sort of episodic or sessional sense.
Sessional I don't think is a word.
Sounds like it could be though. Hey it is now.
I'm fine with it. I'll use it.
So, So primarily you're going to be doing for like the basic
things that you're doing, you're going to be doing the the
challenges. That's that's the the thing that
you probably do more often. Showdowns are like you just say
like the big kind of narrative moments, the final boss fights,
like those kind of things. Those are kind of the two main,
main aspects they're going to be doing.
Yeah, yeah. And then there are like sort of
smaller stuff that can put it and then a lot of it is.
Away from like mechanized stuff and about like how you are
connecting to characters around you where that character's your
own crew because you're all a pirate crew of ships wherever.
It's your pirate comrades on land, some of whom might like
really think then similar ways to you.
Some of whom are on the same side as you but are really
opposed to like everything about how you go about things.
You're going to be role-playing out scenes where you're dealing
with the routine programs at the terminal.
Who are? You know, vicious obstacles and
who will attempt to sort of manipulate you and find other
sort of insidious ways to control you.
But you'll also meet lots of obsolete programs who were
scheduled for deletion by the system, escaped, and now was
sort of in hiding. And these are, I think, where I
like this arranged spot of the game because their their
programs, who at some point had a purpose to sort of punish and
influence. Of the sleepers.
But also now they're remarkably like you.
They're they're the rejected ones.
They're the people who aren't fitting in the system and some
of them may be a case to have like strong allies if you can
unite with them. So it's often yeah, like playing
and like exploring your relationships with the wider
world. So is, is the bulk of the game
gonna be like within the terminal so you're like in the
simulation? Or is it like a mix between out
of the simulation and in the simulation?
It's a mix. I would say as I envision it,
I'm imagining like a 8525 mix, though I also to be honest,
imagine that is a mix. That's really up to how.
People GM the game, I don't think.
I neither think a book could prescribe how much you'd spend
in each location, and even if it could, I don't necessarily think
I'd want the game to do like because I'd want people to
explore the spaces that are most interesting to them.
I can imagine one group playing this game, whether like, yeah,
we mainly like gloss over and skim through our scenes in the
wake. We don't really bother like
saying stuff. We're just doing that when we're
talking we're like at like 90% terminal 10% that I could
imagine some group but like yeah it's 5050 like some sessions
were entirely in the wake and doing awesome pirate shit and
other sessions were entirely in the term like it's I I my guess
would be it will really depend on on what interests an
individual group. As I run it's probably like I
said 8525. I'm now leaning more towards,
that's probably 75 actually it would be 8515.
I'm. Not the most numerous, but like,
I just remembered because I had no idea that made sense in my
head. So I'll take it.
So then tell me about Liber. I'm gonna say it wrong.
The Libertasha. Libertasha.
Yeah, I would say Libertasha, but I have no idea.
That was, Yeah. Are you wrong?
Yeah. While I was editing the book
recently, I found like at least one straight, well, not while I
was editing. When I was looking through
edits, I'd got back from Alyssa's, the wonderful editor
of the game. I know it's one straight
instance where like when I was writing the game before, I
didn't name for it. It was just called Pyra Island
for ages. And I was like, there's a
leftover Pyra Island, just get rid of that.
But yeah, limitation. The idea is that, you know, in
like centuries gone past, people used to just have to sort of
troll the waves. Die in their sort of like metal
ships. And then a group of pirates like
centuries ago got together, seized this island and that's
essentially now like the sort of home of the unified pirates.
You know, it is sort of an island of people who who didn't
fit in, but who are building their own lives with each other.
It doesn't have any like government really, other than
sort of like a sort of informal like voting system around stuff.
Like a pirate crew is assembled by, you know, who can convince
people to be on a ship and like go along with each other in that
sense. And the setting there it's like.
You know, it's to find a lot of places, different pirates and
different ships, so you can get different perspectives,
something. But then I also try to add in
like senses that you get a sense of why this place matters and
why you want to care about it and why it would be, you know,
travesty for the robots to succeed in in destroying this
sort of lost outpost of nonconformity.
And then one of the crashes of the major story arcs really is
actually. I guess this goes back to us,
but like most of the story arcs are terminal based, there like 5
terminal based crashes, there is one which actually focuses much
more on limitation and the sort of tense pirate alliances at the
core of that. And I think that's a really
interesting one and interesting expression of characters and
seeing you're in sort of comrades potentially turn
against you. Yeah.
So I just it's interesting that the kind of like the wake is
both pirate as well as like the simulation.
So like you're in the simulation as pirates and do they just
continue that like out in libertation with this concept of
the pirates or or am I wrong is the is libertation is in the
wake right? It's not in the simulation.
Yeah, Libertation is in the wake and then the simulation.
You know, I often imagined it as like 90s early early naughties,
like action films, but often with a very sort of like
dreamscape logic, you know, it's really interesting.
I think it like the in the first matrix for like early scenes.
It's like, you know, Neo's waking up and you can't tell us
the scene you just watch was a dream or not.
And then that stuff that element like disappears the moment Neo's
out of the. Matrix, because then he plugs
in. It's always very clear where he
is. That makes sense to me, but I
wanted more of that sort of dream, logic, unreality, sort of
blurring at the edges in the the simulation where the aesthetics
of a lot of characters there inside a very sort of, I think
of like, sort of like, you know, queer nightclubs, punk outfits.
Lots of sort of different, sort of like cool fashion.
And I yeah, think of these places as very, the domains
themselves as very different. One is very directly me doing a
sort of riff on scenes, like Wild at Heart.
Another place is entire. Another domain is really
entirely about the fact that I really hate Canary Wharf in
London. I find I really like Soulless.
Place. So I I ended up making an entire
domain of the terminal Canary wolf without saying that
explicitly. While others sort of go of wolf
sort of vibes. One whole like story arc
involves an arc involves a domain where nightmares have
been bleeding out of someone's mind into the world and it kind
of plays that like stuff relates like the dream parade and
paprika. The inspirations are very
different. And then?
What is, as much as I love The Matrix, I do feel like if I was
making a game in Zion, I think Zion is a place that you don't
actually. You get a lot of like
interesting stuff about it and about how maybe characters film
what it represents. But I don't think it's a place
you're the most interested in spending time and narratively.
So I did want something that like, added some an interesting
setting. It was a really big focus here
that, like, if I'm writing the game right.
If someone spends an entire session in limitation, or even
spends a couple that shouldn't be like they didn't have fun,
that should still be really interesting and exciting, even
if they want to spend most of their time narratively in the
terminal. And that also allowed like nice
themes I think with pirates in terms of, you know, people being
outside of. You know, in a lot of fiction
outside of like civilization or society and it's sort of rules,
Yeah, like I said, I really love that it keeps the pirate themes
because if you're if you're like realistically, like if you're
able to plug into a system that's very pirated, you're not
just going to like turn the pirate off once you unplug, like
you're going to continue that, you know, like.
So I I really enjoy that. There's a continuity between
both. It's it's really interesting.
One of the other things that really struck me about the Zine
too is the graphic design as well as the art.
So I definitely want to discuss the artist because my goodness,
it is absolutely stunning. Yeah, she's she's amazing.
So the artist for Terminal is Gorman Geist.
Who is? Yeah, just a brilliantly
talented artist. She's also a writer and designer
and her own right. She made Bubblegum Wizards 2
Bubblegum Vampires, Nuclear Knights.
I absolutely recommend you you check out her stuff on
Gomengeist dot H dot I/O. And we followed each other on
Tumblr, is how I ended up finding Gomenge.
So I'd like been working on this idea for a bit had like.
Chunks of writing in different places and I was like, I'm I I
should try and get an artist together for this because I make
a lot of games and like do some things all by myself and then
just put them out without much announcement.
But I was like, this feels like it's a piece of work I'm really
proud of and maybe I should take more care with I guess that take
more care that maybe is dismissive my work but like.
Because I don't want to go slower and collaborate with
other people on. So I was looking for an artist
and I remember my initial thoughts were I think for the
game I'm telling and the story I'm telling and someone can do
action and someone can do fashion.
And then I initially I was asking a friend and talking
about this know something like wait, I follow someone on Tumblr
who does great action and great fashion.
I've reached out via e-mail and was like, hey.
Tom was getting interested and yeah, she was down.
And all of the art has been amazing.
It's so informed my conception of the game and the characters
and the world. We've previewed a lot of it on
Twitter and Tumblr though. You know, I'm getting, I've got
another new piece yesterday night, which I've not shown
anywhere, anywhere. And yeah, it's really wonderful.
And then? Because she works with like, so
like this one thing I really love that we like, like she went
with Ellie. Almost like there's a color
palette for terminal scenes and there's a color palette for
scenes in the wake. It's a really neat thing.
The coloring is always really beautiful and so when I came to
putting the sample layout together, I was matching those
colors and using some of the sort of binary design from.
From The Matrix, I'm really just trying to make sure I'm serving
Gorman Geist's art as much as possible.
And I'm creating, creating something that it feels like.
Yeah, that it feels like it deserves to sit in and hopefully
creating writing that really supports that.
Yeah. I mean, as you said and going
back through some of the files from the press kit you sent, I
can see that there's like a pretty stark difference in the
color schemes. That's really, really beautiful.
But the way, like obviously you gotta go check out their other
content. But the way that they use color
is absolutely stunning. And I think it really, I don't
know if you could have picked someone better for this because
it really does speak to the, I don't know when I think of the
Matrix, when I think of being plugged into a simulation the
way that there's like these stark colors without like a lot
of gradients and things like that.
Like it really speaks to to the style that I think and really
pulls you into terminal and not only the art, but the graphic
design as well. Did you do the graphic design
with like the the there's previews on the website?
I'm not giving anything away or previews on the Kickstarter
page, but with like on the top and bottom of every page and
everything, Is that is that your graphic design or do you have a
designer? No, no.
Yeah, I did the, I did the graphic design.
These are just sort of sample pages to have some on the
website. So I went with like a binary
code thing. I think the binary code is the
first page of the book is what the code actually translates to.
If it's like ran through something, obviously it gets
chopped and interrupted in parts by page numbers and stuff.
And yeah, that was about like, you know, I made sure I was
matching colors to. The book I was using them like
imagining like distinguishing colors like around like Oh yeah,
this is stuff for it's like our basic Prem is, this is where we
record. This is the color for all of the
stuff that's in like the GM section.
This is the color for the things and the sort of like core rules.
And I'm excited when we go through, when we finish off
editing and then like all of these, fine.
I'm really excited to put the whole finished game together.
Because it's definitely going to be the biggest thing that I've
ever done. And yeah, I just wanted to make
sure it like that it I wanted to create a graphic design that
felt like it deserved all that, felt like it justified having
such beautiful art as its center.
Yeah, And I think it does. I mean, again, just that if
these are just sample pages, they look really fantastic.
They. I love we.
We're a big fan of usability here on the show.
We definitely, you know when we rate Rpg's we definitely have a
whole section just based on like navigation of the book and how
well it's usable and color coding sections for different
parts is like such a huge thing that a lot of people don't do.
That is something that personally for me at least,
helps a ton with usability because you can tell when parts
are supposed to be used together and things like that.
So I I love the way that it's used.
I love the the break of the bond area code for the page numbers.
I think it's so clever. I think the graphic design of
the spreads definitely fits with the style of the art and the
whole project looks absolutely stunning and and for the project
itself, you are this is a Kickstarter project.
The part the the Kickstarter is already live.
It's been live since I believe the 20th so there's 27 days up
to go in it. So if you will do look up
Terminal on Kickstarter, they're going to go find it.
Your goal is almost funded. There's 27 days to go.
But when people go to the Kickstarter to back this
project, like what can they actually get from the various
tiers of the Kickstarter that you're putting out?
Yeah, so if you go to terminal dot rat wave dot UK you can see
the tiers. There's an initial tier which is
just Chuck me some money, just if you're like I want to support
this maybe Times are hard, you don't have to have times are
hard, Feel free to, you know buy something nice for yourself
rather than me. But then the then the the second
last tier after that is a digital pirate is £15.00 that
will get you a PDF of the game when it's finished.
On the estimation, I put like probably finished around
September, you know maybe prone to life disruptions but you know
the game is written, we're in the process of editing.
We're in the process of getting more more art.
Then at 30 pounds Pirate of the Wake tea you can get the
physical edition. Think I mentioned it's going to
be a four paperback. I think and hoping and well I
say hoping I've seen the art is beautiful.
I think I'm confident in my layout design but hopefully
we're going to have like a really nice beautiful book.
The cover is I love, I love the cover of of this game.
It to me is perfectly sort of conveys everything about the
world at 40. Cover what I called that.
I think it was Navigator. Navigated that, got called.
You can buy that as well as a GM screen, GM screen.
It's not like a game where you're doing much secretive GM
rolling, but it's useful because it will include a map of the
Wake, which I'm in discussions with a person working on the map
at the moment. That should be a very cool
preview recently, and then that will include like short
references on either side, so it's just like a nice fancy.
Reference for the GM you can get that for the 40 pound tier and
then a special one of tier. I think it's 100 is there is a
character in the game the startup operation like the sort
of starter mission to kick off the campaign involves freeing
arrest the sleeper whose proper name once they leave the the
terminal is going to be Atlanta is you doing a lot of the
Matrix. But it's really interesting.
In the I've essentially written saying, which is like a trans
analogy with a character who is canonically trans, which is
interesting. I played it out.
I played because I've been running a game of Terminal for
some friends played it recently and it was very interesting to
sort of dig into that area of things.
But that character at some point does have like an office name.
They have in the terminal the sort of Thomas Anderson or stuff
in the book. At the moment that is just two
exclamation marks, because if someone gives me £100 they can
be this character's terminal, that name essentially.
So that's a weird one off tier, yeah?
And then? Hopefully if we fund soon, I'll
work on some stretch goals. My sort of priorities would be
like creasing the art budget and I have talked to Summarize about
perhaps doing some guest stuff on that, But that isn't really
all dependent on how the Kickstarter continues to go.
Yeah. And you know, I honestly, I'm
surprised this hasn't funded yet and and it absolutely will.
I'm confident in that because the project is first of all just
gorgeous overall. I mean, Gorman Geist is a
fantastic artist, but like actually reading the content,
reading what's on here and even just the themes of the game in
general and being able to plug in a new cool pirate shit is is
great. Like I'm super excited to get
this and if it you know, for those that are listening and and
you know part of the reason Kayla is on right now is to talk
about this great project and to get people directed towards it.
It's awesome like I said of all of the the press content that
you've sent me everything that I've read from Libertacia
through the core mechanics through everything.
It's just a really, really fun project And and you know as I
said before when we first connect with this and you send
me the press kit, I immediately was like okay.
We have to bring Kayla on. We have to talk about this
project. It's fantastic like we have to
we have to do this. So this is definitely one that I
I highly recommend. Can't wait to have in hand.
What what else would you like to say about Terminal?
I guess I mean this is as I, you know, as I just stated it's a
fantastic project. I'm really excited to get it in
people's hands once this is done.
You know, once this is funded and it's all sent out, is there
any thoughts in your brain about future Terminal content or are
you going to or are you the kind of creator that likes to bounce
from project to project and and continue on or do you think
Terminal is something that you're going to like kind of
stay in and and continue to develop?
That's a good question. I am definitely someone who's
prone to bouncing around a lot, and I do have some other work in
progress is that I would like to do a bit more on one term.
I'm, you know, properly wrapped on On Terminal I've Sank, which
is like a musical game involving tarot.
I have something involving sort of like a space fantasy western
thing I wanted to put together. I'm I'm interested in whether
people would want more sort of terminal content.
I could definitely imagine myself writing.
One off operations, you'd be slotting into your campaign all
sort of even, you know, expansions and further crashes
or stuff. But I do suppose it would depend
on what the sort of initial interest is.
Or maybe, you know, otherwise sort of exploring the scene and
stuff. Or probably.
Yeah, it's like to figure out and I guess it will depend so
much on what the the response is.
I do wonder whether the game is entirely self-contained on its
own. I think it definitely is, but
there probably is also room for other stuff if that ended up
interesting people. Gotcha.
Yeah, you know I I guess like you said we'll see.
But I'm. I'm very excited to get this.
I can only imagine are you gonna is this going to be written like
licensing is a thing in the discourse and it has been for a
little while. Are people going to be able to
write content for Terminal if they if they choose to?
Yeah, absolutely. I will probably include saying
on the credits, but I'd be very happy for people to write their
own sort of crashes or even small operations or stuff if
they. If they felt inspired by it I'm
not given much like pen to paper for, but yeah, they would
definitely do like an open like Creative Commons powered
license. Like I said, it's based on
inevitable by some of the sort of core rules are already, you
know, going to have their own license I think when that game
releases And then in terms of where, yeah, some kind of thing
where I'll just support any sort of.
Third party concept, the terminal that people want to do
because you know the most exciting thing is if people are
playing and enjoying the game and wanting to carve out their
own space in that in that world. Like, you know, that's a great,
a great honor. And and like you said, I mean
you, you have written a variety of different games, different
settings, different mechanics, different everything.
Where can people find all of these this variety of things
that that you've already put out?
Like where can people find the content that you've already
made? Yeah, so I do have like a
central website at ratwave.uk which is just like a big sort of
directory for all of my different stuff on H It's
ratwave gamehouse dot H dot io. Every game I have is available.
I do have some things like available in print on demand,
and then I have some things that eventually, not yet, but
eventually are going to be available through the sole
Muppet web store. And I think some things are
going to IPR in America. And so yeah, if you are coming
to Jencon, actually that's a good thing.
I should say. There'll be copies of
Transgender Deathmatch Legend available on the Indie Press
Revolution store. As long as I'll be there and you
can see me and I think I am running some of my games for
people I know I am. I just don't know when, but I'm
running both Fear the Taste of Blood and 30 Foes.
When is it available Information I just haven't checked and
remembered. But yeah, Route wave dot UK is
the best directory for everything and you can find all
my work on there which is. Yeah, a little like, damn
relevant Watch. Gotcha.
Yeah. And this is Listen, Kayla, super
appreciate you being here again. Kayla DICE, an award-winning
fantastic creator with this fantastic project out right now.
Terminal, the digital pirate action RPG again.
Like I said, I'm super excited for this project.
I can't wait to actually get it in hand.
No doubt that it's gonna fund. If you guys listening right now
at all, go to Kickstarter, go to Terminal.
What was the short URL for it again?
The terminal is just terminal.ratwave.uk.
Did that, and I'm really glad it Dicks.
It makes it very easy for me to say in conversation.
It's great. Adam Vass does it for like every
game. And it's so much easier than
being like go to kickstarter.com/this/that.
It's a really great choice and I'm glad I did it.
So if you're listening, click that link, Go check that out.
Kayla, thank you so much for being here, is fantastic talking
with you and again, can't wait for this project to come out.
So very much appreciate. It thank you having me on.
I had a lovely time. Thank you for.
Thank you for sharing the space. All right.
So that's going to be our show for today.
We don't really have anything planned after.
So again, go back to this project, it's fantastic and we
will see you all next time. So bye everybody.